Manitoba Hansard — 16 July 1959 (Sitting 27A, 26th Legislature, 1st Session)

26-1-27a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

IN DEX Thursday, July 16, 1959 Page Law Amendments Committee, Report (Mr. Lyon)... ................. ... ............ 981 Introduction of Bill 89, re Business Development (Mr. Evans ) 981 Introduction of Bill 58, re statute Law (Mr. Carroll) • • • .. •• .. .. • • • •• • • • • • • • .. .. • .. • 981 Proposed Resolutions Bill 14, re School Grants (Mr. McLean) • . • . • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • . • • • • • • 981 Mr. Miller, Mr. McLean • • . • • • . • • • • . • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • 982 Mr. Miller, Mr. Hryhorczuk, Mr.

McLean ........................ , • • • • • • • • 983 Bill 51, re Municipal Board (Mr. Tho.mpson): Mr. Gray, Mr. Prefontaine • • • . • . • • • • • 984 Mr •. Thompson; Mr. Prefontaine, Mr. Paulley, Mr. Groves • •• . • • • • • • •• • • • •• 985 Mr. Groves, Mr. Paulley, Mr. Hillhouse .. ....................... ........... 986 Bill 52, re Public Utilities Board (Mr. Carroll): Mr. Gray, Mr. Hillhouse, Mr.Carroll 986 Statement on Exam Papers, Mr. McLean .... ·• • .. • . .. • • . • • • • • . • .. • . • .. • .. .. • .. • .. .. 987 Questions 988 Announcements: Mr. Christianson, Mr.

Corbett............. ..... .... ..... . ....... 990 Third Reading: Bills 2, 3, 11, 26, 27, 30 .......... .... . ;.... .. . ........... ...... 991 Bill 45 •. • .••• •• ••• •••.•• .• ,. •• . • • • . • . • • • • • .• • •• •• • .• • .• . .• • • .• • • .• • •. • • • • • 992 Second Readings Bill 6, re Social Security (Mr. Johnson, Gimli) . .. • • • •• • .. • .. .. .. • • • • . • .. • • .. .• .. • . 993 Mr. Hillhouse • . • . • • • • • • • . • • • . • . • • . • . • . • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • . • . • • • • • . • • • • • . • • 994 Mr. Gray, Mr. Wright, Mr.

Prefontaine .... . .. . ... . , •• ••• • ;. •. • . • • • •• . • • . • . 995 Mr. Gray . • • • . . • . • . . • • • • • . • • • • • • • • • . • . . • . • • • • • • • • • . • • • • • . • . • • • • • • . • • • • • • • 996 Mr. Groves .• ••• • ••• •• •. •••••• .• • .•• .• .••••••••• .••• • .• •• •• • •• •••••• . , • • • 997 Mr. Prefontaine, Mr. Groves, Mr. Orlikow . . •• • . • • • • .. .. • • • .• • • • .. . • • .. .. • 1000 Mr. Shoemaker • •. • . • • •• • . • • .. •• • • • •• . • • .. •• . .. . • • .• .. • .. •• • .. .. . .. • • • .. . • 1001 Mr. Guttomrson, Mr.

Johnson (Gimli) • • • • • • • • • • • • • .. • • • • • • • • • • • . . • • • . • • • • • • . 1002 Division . . • • . • • • • • • • • • • . • • • • • • • • • • • • • . • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • . • • . • • • • • • • • • • • • • 1005 Bill 23, re Child Welfare (Mr. Johnson, Gimli) .. •• .. .. • .. .. .. • .. .. .. .. • .. .. • .. •• .. 1007 Bill 56, re Teacher Society (Mr. McLean) •• .. •• • .. • • .. • • .. • • .. • • .. • • • .. .. . .. • .. • . 1007 Bill 82, re Mineral Taxation (Mr.

Evans) • • . • . • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • . • • . • • • • . • • . • • • • • 1007 Bill 83, re Pipe Lines (Mr. Evans) Mr. Gray, Mr. Paulley, Mr. Campbell •• •• . •• .• • 1008 Committee of Supply Mines and Natural Resources: Answers to Questions, Mr. Evans ......... ........ ... 1010 Fisheries Branch, Statement, Mr.

Evans . • • • • • • • • • • • • • • . • . • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • . • 1014 Disc ussion and Questions • . • • • • • • • . • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • . . • • • • • • • • • • • • • • 1019 Predator Control • • • . • • • • • • • . • • • • • • • . . . • • • • • • • • • • . • • • • • • • . . • . • • . • • • • • • • • • • . 1035

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 8:00 o'clock, Thursday, July 16th, 1959 MR . SPEAKER: Second Reading of Bill No. 23. The Honourable the Minister of Health and Welfare. Mr. Johnson (Gim.li) presented Bill No. 23 for second reading. Mr. Speaker read the motion. MR . JOHNSON (Gimli): Mr. Speaker, the principle of this Bill is complementary to the Social Allowances Act in carrying forward the government's welfare policy. There are three main amendments contained in this Act;

(1) It changes the power of the Juvenile Court to make maintenance orders for neglected children, instead of against the municipality against the direc tor.

(2) The rate of maintenance is to be set by the Public Welfare Advisory Co=ittee rather than ,the Rate Establishment Committee, which formerly consisted �f municipal representatives. Part (3), the Mothers' Allowance provision of the Child Welfare Act is repealed as they are covered in the new Social Allowances Act; this concerns where mothers widowed or deserted over four years and this, of course is changed in the new Social Allowances Act. That is the principle contained in Bill No. 23. MR . GRAY: Mr. Chairman, children --are they being placed in foster homes or in institutions? MR .

JOHNSON (Gimli): ••••••• try and maintain them in foster homes. Twenty years ago nearly all foster children were placed in institutions and that figure has now reversed itself, pretty well, and we try these children who are neglected and we do all that we can to place them in foster homes. cation. After a voice vote, Mr. Speaker declared the motion carried. MR . SPEAKER: Second Reading of Bill No. 56. The Honourable the Minister of Edu- Mr. McLean presented Bill 56 for second reading. Mr. Speaker read the motion. MR .

McLEAN: This Bill --the provisions of this Bill have been requested and approved by resolution at their annual meeting of the Manitoba Teachers' Society. It is required, or it follows in a sense, the formation of school divisions and provides simply for the change of the local association from District Association to Division Association, the election of officers of of that association and the election of the representatives from each Division association to the central or provincial executive. As I say, the provisions have all been approved by the annual meeting of the Manitoba Teachers' Society.

After a voice vote, Mr. Speaker declared the motion carried. MR . SPEAKER: Second Reading of Bill No. 82. The Honourable the Minister of Mines and Resources. Mr. Evans presented Bill No. 82 for second reading. Mr. Speaker read the motion. MR . EVANS: Mr. Speaker, the main purpose of this Bill is to correct what is regarded as an inj ustice in taxing certain oil wells. The oil wells themselves are valued on the basis of the annual production of oil from each well. That more or less establishes the value of the well, then the mill rate is applied to that value and the Provincial Mineral Tax is applied.

According to present regulations, a well that has produced for only a portion of a year --we had one case as small a portion as two weeks in a year --has that rate of production pro-rated over the entire year, for arriving at the value. The case that I refer to resulted in a tax, in that case, some what larger than the total value of production for that year. So the purpose of this is to correct that injustice and allow the well for that particular year to be valued only on the oil it produced in that year.

There is another provision in the Bill --formerly appeals were made to the Municipal Assessment Equalization and Appeal Board, but since that board will by virtue of other legislation cease to exist, amendments are necessary to make provision for appeals being made to the Municipal Board. Those are the two principles of this Bill: MR . GRAY: Mr. Speaker, is there any intention of the government at this session or future session to adjust any injustice as far as the royalty of the oil is concerned. MR . EV ANS: If the honourable member would explain to me what he means by the July 16th, 1959. Page 1007

(Mr. Evans, Cont'd.) ••••• injustice --what particular injustice he has in mind? MR . GRAY: Yes, the injustice is that the government is not getting enough royalty from the oil. MR . EVANS: I should think my reply on this occasion would be much the same as I did the other evening. MR . GRAY: One of these days you'll change it. After a voice vote, the Speaker declared the motion carried. MR . SPEAKER: Second reading of Bill No. 83. Mr. Evans presented Bill No. 83 for second reading. Mr. Speaker read the motion. MR. EVANS: Mr.

Speaker, there is present legislation which -enables the Lieut�lit!l:t Governor in Council to exempt from the provisions of the Pipelines Act any pipeline which is less than ten miles in length. The reason for that is that it does not require the company, in the first place, to file plans and get approval for this short pipeline which is in all cases merely a feeder pipeline, or a soft..;water disposal pipeline. That is the reason for enabling them to be exempt from the Pipeline Act and its necessity of filing plans and seeking approval before that short pipeline is built.

The purpose of the amendment is to give the Minister power to provide that examption for a pipeline that is less than five miles in length -there being so many of these short connecting pipelines, and it would be a convenience to have that power in the hands of the Minister. MR . GRAY: ••• •• • does it apply on water pipes or on oil, iE'l't it? MR . EVANS: Both pipelines --things that come within the •. • MR . GRAY: ••• •• • another exemption to the oil producers, is it? MR . EVANS: No. MR . PAULLEY: In other words, I gather, Mr.

Speaker, on this Bill, that the authority of the Lieutenant-Governor in Council must still be obtained in respect of the ten miles •••• MR . EVANS: From ten miles to five miles, the Lieutenant-Governor in Council; below five miles •• ••• • MR . PAULLEY: Yes, below five miles will be the Minister,

whereas at the present time from ten miles all the way down is the Lieutenant-Governor in Council. MR . SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? MR . CAMPBELL: Mr. Speaker, I have no objection to changing from the Lieutenant Governor in Council to the Minister. I think that in practice it means pretty nearly the same thing.

But personally, I always like to see the Lieutenant-Governor in Council in a statute rather than the Minister, for the simple reason that it indicates to some people, at least, that there's a beaucracy if just the Minister is allowed to do it, in so many things, and in practice, as the honourable members of the Cabinet know, it doesn't take very long to p ut through an Order-in-Council of this kind. And I think there is some advantage in having the other members of Council informed on just what is being done. Now so far as the change from ten miles down to five miles, I have no objection in the world to that.

My objection to the Minister doing it is not of any great consequence because I think that the jurisdiction will be properly exercised, but I think that in our statutes generally that it looks better to the public if we vest these authorities in the Lieutenant-Governor in Council, rather than the Minister. Quite frankly as I have been - differ ent statutes have come up for reconsiderat io n I tried all the time I was in the position of First Minister to recommend to my colleagues that they made the change to the Lieutenant-Governor in Council.

If it's a matter that's as simple as this one, it doesn't take many minutes, and it's just that I think the procedure is a little less bireaucratic to be made by Order-in-Council. How ever, I'm not going to press it --shall we say to the extent of a vote --and I have no serious objection but I would suggest it for consideration by the Minister and we might discuss it further in the committee stage. MR . GRAY: Mr. Speaker, I support the suggestion made by the last speaker.

I have no objection of leaving everything to the present Minister because I know he's very honest and just, but I read in the press that there were some changes of the portfolios, and probably I wouldn't like to leave the discretion to the other ministers. MR . EVANS: I have no present knowledge of anything of that sort, so I'm acting under present circumstances. Pitge ICJ08 Jfil.y 16th, I959.

After a voice vote, Mr. Speaker declared the motion carried. MR . SPEAKER: Committee of Supply. MR . ROBLIN: I would like to move seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Mr. Speaker read the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. The Honourable Member for St. Matthews took the chair. MR . CHAIRMAN: Mine and Fisheries -- Natural Resources. Item 10, Fisheries. MR . PAULLEY: Mr.

Chairman, just before we proceed with the business of the com- mittee, I'd like to raise the question of the comfort of the members of the committee. We have met this last few days in Law Amendments, and I presume the same custom will now prevail in respect of other committees of the House, and I am raising the question as to whether or not it would not be permissible for the members of this committee if they so felt at ease, to divest themselves of their jackets during the sitting of this committee.

Nciw we all realize, of course, Sir, that we're meeting under rather unusual circumstances in the middle of the summer. There may be some provisions -- I do not know -- in customs and usages insofar as the House itself is concerned which controls us when Mr. Speaker is in his chair. We know that in this particul ar committee we're permitted to smoke and relax, and it appears as though I can speak from the Honourable the First Minister's chair and he from mine, and the likes -- and I'm just wonder- ing whether or not, Mr.

Chairman, there would be anything to debar any member of the committee if he saw fit to take off his jacket. Now at the present time, of course, my tie is quite relaxed. I think usually when Mr. Speaker's in the chair I do button it up a little bit - but, I just raise the question as to the comfort. And I think it might expedite business a little bit too. MR . ROBLIN: Mr. Chairman, of course the committee and the House are the master of their own rules. Therefore, it is perfectly possible to adopt any rule regarding dress.

I think that the honourable member has probably made a good case on a basis of need (Laughter) that we should take off our jackets in committee, and I personally have no objection to it. I do think, however, that we should not permit the same relaxation whe n Mr. Speaker is in the chair. Perhaps there are more experienced parliamentarians here who might like to comment on the matter, but it would seem to be all right for me to do that. I must in candour say that it is the Minister of Health who suggested to me that need might be a good basis on which this could be considered. (Laughter) MR . MILLER: Mr.

Chairman, I heartily concur in the suggestions made by the Honour able the Leader of the CCF Party. I am very glad indeed that the Leader of the House concurs. As a matter of fact, Mr. Chairman, members of the committee will probably recall that yester day, when it was very, very sticky, I suggested to the Minister of Health that he prescribe for health reasons that members be permitted to take off their coats. I certainly welcome the sug gestion that that be done because I am rather stout and probably feel the effects of the stickiness the humidity -- more than some of my less well -favoured friends.

I am heartily in support of that. MR . HILLH OUSE: Mr. Speaker, applying the means' test, does that necessarily mean you have to have a clean shirt? (Laughter) MR . ROBLIN: ••••• error, we don't operate on a mean's test -- it's a needs test. (Laughter). MR . GROVES: I rise to the defense of those less privileged -- the matter of the Clerk and the staff of the House that have much heavier clothes on than we. Does it also include them? MR .

MILLER: I might say that I've perused the rules both of our House and the House at Ottawa, and I can find nothing to suggest that we are not permitted to do that even under the existing rules. I might say too, that in the Mother of Parliaments great latitude is permitted; they have their feet up on the table and everything else, and so forth and so on. And after all, I think we should take our cue from the Mother of Parliaments and permit the greatest latitude possible. MR . CHAIRMAN: , •••• members to take off their coats and to put their feet on the table. MR .

GRAY: If we are to follow all recommendations for the members, might as well have an outlet here too. July 16th, 1959. Page 1009 ..·, ....

MR . CHAIRMAN: ••• •• • in agreement on this question .•• • MR . CORBETT: I think you should insist that any of the gentlemen that only wear a false front -- what we used to call a dickey -- and then their underwear, that they've got to keep their coats on. (Laughter). MR . CHAIRMAN: Let's be serious, for just a moment please before we come to a decision. I have heard this mentioned in several quarters and so on; I've just had one or two things -thoughts -- come to my mind.

I imagine when the committee rises and we say "Com mittee rise and call in the Speaker," I don't know just exactly where all the members are going to scramble to get their coats unless they have them down the backs of their chairs. But it seems as though -- one reason why I was hesitating in my own mind was that if it was going to give more flexibility to the oratorical muscles of the committee, that would be one argument against it, and I saw a movie theatre downtown there and it said, the picture was "Deep Heat", and underneath it said "Cool Inside".

Well I though that very well could have been put outside of our own Legislative Building here. But the other thought that I wondered was whether if - we are fairly comfortable -- and if we made it more comfortable we might be sitting here until the snow flies. But if it's going to make us feel happy and if it's going to speed up business, and we are going to be generally comfortable, well I am all in favour of "Coats Off. " l'vIB. PAULLEY: If we're cooler of body, we'll be cooler of temper too. MR •.

MILLER: That was borne out today in Law Amendments Committee when we got through our business in an hour and a half. MR . CHAIRMAN: Well now, we'll look for that, and see whether that's wh at it will be. (Interjection and Laughter) MR . ROBLIN: Nobody from the CCF. MR . CHAIRMAN: Well it's just "do as you please men' and •• •• • MR . PAUL LEY: Please, Mr. Chairman, ••• •• • the circumstance does not arise again, I do assure my honourable friend. MR . CHAIRMAN: I hope this spirit of unanimity will carry on all the way through the estimates. l\'IR. CAMPBELL: Mr.

Chairman, I'd like to just make one suggestion though, and I make it in an sincerity and that is that if we are going to do this, I must confess that I look at the business outside of this chamber in a little diff erent way to what I do inside the chamber even though. it's in committee here, but if we're going to do this -- goodness knows I certainly don't want to register a note of opposition when so much unanimity prevails -- but if we're going to do it let's do it in the most regular way possible, and let somebody move that it be done and then let's have a vote on it because -- rather than leaving it -- let's make it as a decision.

And for goodness sakes, if we do, then can we not extend, as the Honourable Member for St. Vital has suggested, can we not extend the courtesy to the Clerk of the House so that at least he can divest himself of the gown, because I have found from limited experience that those particular ceremonial garbs are very warm, and certainly the page boys and the assistant Sargeant-at Arms -- I don't know -- I"ve been looking over the uniform of the Sergeant-at-Arms -- I don't ;mow that his uniform lends itself to much divestment but couldn't we have it extended as far as possible, if we're going to do it. MR.

PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, I don't know whether or not the Clerk - - a very good friend of mine -- comes under the jurisdiction of the committee or the government itself. So therefore -- I think he does come under the Speaker -- but in order that this be -- a suggestion be, as suggested by the Leader of the Opposition by motion, I make a motion, Mr. Chairman, that members of the committee be permitted to remove their jackets if they feel inclined to do so. MR . MILLER: Mr. Chairman, •• ••• rules, I'll second that. Mr. Chairman called for a voice vote and declared the motion carried. MR .

CHAIRMAN: Return to Fisheries Branch. MR . EVANS: Mr. Chairman, if you'll pardon me just a moment. Mr. Chairman, in the first place I would like to express my appreciation for one, to the Leader of the CCF for the suggestion, and I hope it will make us all feel more comfortable and I am sure it will. I would like at the outset, if it is agreeable to you, Sir, and if it suits the convenience of the committee, to answer questions which were put to me last night that I was not able to Page 1010 July 16th, 1959.

(Mr. Evans, Cont' d.) • • • • • • • answer, as well as I've been able to get the information together. I believe the Honourable Member for St. George asked me about abolishing the early stubble shoot, and unfortunately the honourable member isn't in his seat but perhaps he'll see it in Han sard later on. The regulations for the seasons and so forth to do with waterfowl are passed by Otta wa's Order-in-Council, and so we cannot make the final statement as to what the regulations will be. Nevertheless, the early season on cultivated land was not this year requested.

That is as far as we're concerned, we did not request that there be an early stubble shooting season. There _was a very mixed reception with regard to the early stubble shoot from the farmers them- selves. It applied to cultivated land and therefore included stubble. And as I understand it, and it seemed logical to me, it's desirable to have birds settle in stubble and stay there if possible, so as not to move on to standing crops and damage them. So in all the circumstances including that reason, I would tell the honourable member that we have decided not to recom mend a stubble shoot this year.

The Leader of the Opposition asked who represented the Department at the St. Louis Missouri meeting and requested a digest of the report that he made at that time. The Depart ment was represented by Mr. G. W. Malaher, the Director of Game, and a digest of his remarks at the meeting is here and I'm glad to provide this copy to the Honourable the Leader of the Op position.

As a result of the representation made, a co-operative survey of the waterfowl depre dation problem was commenced on the prairies last year with United states federal and some state officials working with Canadian Wildlife Service and provincial representatives. The initial survey was of an exploratory nature and is this year considerably enlarged with teams working in each of the prairie provinces on the over-all problem and determining ways and means of solution. The Leader of the Opposition and the Honourable Member of St.

George both asked for the season and bag limits of previous years, and I have them here and if it suits your convenience I'll read them into Hansard and you'll have the record of them. During the period l952 to 1958 the ducks were in good supply. Limits were increased in 1953 and remained unchanged through 1958. Season limits were removed in that year as not being enforceable. There are three sets of limits in the year 1952.

There was the daily; the number in possession at any one time; and then the season limit; and it was found impossible to trace back how many a given hunter might have shot in a particular season. The season dates given below are those for the general season in southern Manitoba. At The Pas seasons com mence a week earlier and on the Delta marsh about one week later. The closing date of the season is normally not significant but is set late enough to provide hunting until normal freeze up date.

Then the year 1952 the season opening in southern Manitoba from September 19th to November 15th: The daily limit 8; in possession 16; the season 40. Then in 1953 September 18th to November 14th: 10 for a daily bag and in possession 30. In 1954 September 24th to November 27th with the same limits as the year before. 1955, September 23rd to November 30th; 1956, Sep tember 2lst to December lst; 1957, September 20th to November 30th; and 1958, September l9th to November 29th. All the years with the exception of 1952 have same daily and in poss:i,ssion limits.

Questions were asked concerning the quantity of ducks, prairie chicken and partridge- what might be called the population -- and I have notes to that effect although they're not worked out in figures. It is correct that water areas on the prairies are less in number this year, that is the water areas are less in number this year. This condition is not as bad in Manitoba as it is further west. Shortage of water where nesting normally occurs has led to redisposition of waterfowl and disturbance of nesting activity.

Return of birds to Manitoba. this spring was up to normal; more than normal in the north; and slightly less than normal in the south because of the smaller amount of water. The increase in the north is believed to be at the expense of the western or dry areas in the prairies. Upland game bird in abundance. Sharp tailed grouse, known as prairie chicken, rough grouse or bush partridge and Hungarian partridge are all on the up swing in their abundant cycle. Winter and spring reports show sharp tails in very good supply. Rough grouse are also in good supply.

Hungarian partridge show a good increase last year -- showed a good increase last year -- and further increase anticipated this year. The peak of the cycle is expected in a year or two from now. July 16th, 1959. Page lOll

(Mr. Evans, Cont'd.) ••••• The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose asked about the cause of the decline in the numbers of the canvasback. The general picture of the canvasback numbers is obtained in the annual summ er surveys in Canada and in the wintering ground surveys in the United States. Decrease in numbers is a recognized fact. Special studies are being conducted by the United States Fish and Wild Life Service and by Delta Waterfowl Research Station. Studies are incomplete to date, but indicate that the drought of ilie last two years is the main reason.

Canvasback are highly specific in their nesting requirements. Prairie potholes are their main nesting areas and they are the first birds to be affected by adverse water conditions. The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose also asked concerning experiments in Manitoba in trying to introduce wild turkeys. Sixteen wild turkeys were last year purchased and released by a group of Game and Fish Associations in southern Manitoba. . GameBranch biologists assis ted the association in determining the best areas for release.

We are not too hopeful of the successful introduction of wild turkeys as Manitoba does not have the same type of habitat in which they are normally found and our winters are likely to prove severe. The branch will again co-operate with these associations if further birds are brought in this year. The same question was asked concerning pinnated grouse. This species is not a true native of Manitoba. Its first occurrence was recorded some seventy years ago when it extended its range northward from the Dakotas. It has sadly decreased throughout its range due largely to the loss of habitat in changing land use.

In Manitoba it flourished for a time but has not been numerous since the late l930's and is now extremely scarce. With increasing scarcity, it has ••••••••• with sharp tails and in some degree -- has ••••••• in some degree, and this may have contributed to its decline as a separate species here. Full reasons for the Manitoba decline are not known. Contributing factors may be the loss of habitat here as elsewhere, and Manitoba is not included in the original range. Extension of range occurred when birds were very abundant. Similar and renewed extension is not now likely.

Special protection of this species is very difficult as hunters do not separate them from the sharp tailed grouse. They are not in the open list for hunting and appeals have been made to hunters to learn their identification and conserve their The Leader of the Opposition asked about the disposal of muskrat pelts. The Netley Fisher River and Whitewater were formerly operated as fur rehabilitation blocks, but they are now thrown open to general trapping. In the Delta of Lake Manitoba, now operated by indivi dual groups -- as a community trapping area, rather than as a controlled block.

In the Summer berry still operated as a fur rehabilitation block, operated under controlled trapping, there are individual limits; the trapper is allotted to a zone; all pelts are turned in to the governments; they are graded and sold by public auction. 75% is sold in Winnipeg at the Dominion Fur and Soudack Auctions; 25% are sold in Montreal and at the Hudson's Bay Company Auction, largely to obtain a controlled price to see that our prices are as good as those that could be obtained elsewhere. Ordinarily there's very little variation in price. This year the Winnipeg price was slightly higher.

The average price this year was $1.ll; the average price last year 65�. Each trapper's accorint is credited with the number of rats caught by him, multiplied by the average pric!3. This money is placed to the credit of his account and it is dispersed to him in monthly installments of $25. 00. The Honourable Member for Fisher, I believe it was, asked about the elk population at Birch River and the Mantago River area. There is no recent specific information on this small elk herd. It was not located in the aerial surveys of last spring. The animals are known to range quite widely.

It is believed their numbers have decreased rather than increased. The Honourable Member for St. George asked about deer in the interlake. In recog nition of deer losses during the bad winter of 1956-57 a 'buck only' season was declared in the interlake area for the 1957 winter season. Hunters' success was unexpectedly good, being 67 .5% or very nearly the provincial average of 68.3. A normal season was in effect in 1958, with a limit of one deer, either sex. Hunters' success was 74. 7 which was above the provincial average of 65.4.

Aerial censusing of deer was this spring extended to parts of the interlake area. This survey and other reports indicate a quite satisfactory comeback of the deer in the interlake area. The Leader of the Opposition asked the following question concerning the price at which land in the Pasquia area would be sold. As I gathered it, at what price it would have to Page 1012 July 16th, 1959.

(Mr. Evans, Cont'd.) •• ••• be sold to return the investment and if it is still the policy to try to recover that investment. I think it bee omes necessary to deal with the actual division of the acreages with the Pasquia because different _price conditions prevail on different blocks and I will run through this. The total acreage is 120,000 acres; patented land, Indian reserves and storage basin 20,000, leaving a remainder of 100,000. Lands under crop share lease and permit as at the date of the agreement and are allocated solely to the province in the amount of 35,000 acres.

At the time the Pasquia arrangement was made, there was 35,000 acres of patented land and Manitoba was given the sole disposition of that land, so that is taken out of the total leaving a remainder of 65, OOO. The sale price of the remaining 65, OOO acres is allo cated in the proportion of the Dominion receiving 75%, the province 25%. The agreement sets a limit of $30, 00 per acre. Certain parcels will be valued at approximately this amount, others lower, according to the actual value.

The policy will be to recover the investment, sub ject however to a fair price to the settler to enable him to carry on an economic operation. The project will be fully completed in the fall of 1960. When completed the expenditures of the province will be approximately $650,000.00, and the anticipated recovery is that the province ·should recover at least 100% of the investment, and there is every likelihood that they will re cover more.

The Honourable Member for Brokenhead asked me concerning the taxes, the municipal taxes which might be collected in connection with hay leases and hay permits, and I'm afraid that I gave him an answer which was partially illcorrect. I said that the amount of the tax was col lected in the provincial fees and then remitted to the municipality. That is the case where a per mit is involved, a one year permit, and the one-third of the total collected is remitted to the municipality in lieu oftaxes. However in the case of a hay lease, which is much longer and they run as long as ten years, the situation is different.

Each municipality has its own varying mill rate which it levies, and on request by a municipality it is quite within the power of the depart ment to cancel a hay lease in the event that municipal taxes are not paid. The initiative in that regard must arise with the municipality but the power exists to cancel the lease if necessary. The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose asked concerning the Sleeve Lake community pasture and I had another discussion with my honourable friend, the Minister of Agriculture and I think it might be convenient if he dealt with this point.

The Minister prefers to deal with this point on his estimates a� I find that it is a community pasture in that sense, and he will deal with that point when he comes to it if that's acceptable to the committee. MR. CAMPBELL: What department is it under? MR. EVANS: My information is that it comes under the Department of -- it's the Department of Agriculture. I had a reference here to the vote number, but my colleague will . deal with that when he comes to it, if that's agreeable.

In dealing with the question in our short discussion about the question of owning summer homesites, the Leader of the Opposition asked me if I would table the regulations in this regard, and I find that perhaps it would not have served the purpose to table what I had, which was a copy of the regulations of the forestry"branch., but I have the references here and will just describe them briefly if that would be suitable to the honourable member. 'There is a distinction here which my good friend the Leader of the CCF Party pointed out to me 'sotto voce', or loud enough for me to hear anyway.

When we were dis cussing the division of the work between the Lands Branch and the Forest Branch I did not have clearly ·in mind that any recreational development in the forest reserves come under the For est Branch, and elsewhere on Crown land come under the Lands Branch. For a time, the Lands Branch issued ten-year leases with provision for one renewal period of ten years; but. .now leases in both the Lands Branch and the Forest Service are for 21 years, with provision for one renewal period also of 21 years. The Crown Lands Act,

section 91 A, gives power to grant leases not exceeding 21 years. The Forest Act regulations,

Section 82, provide for leases of 21 years with a further renewal offered to the tenant at that time of 21 years. The practice in both branches at the present time -- and I understand certainly in the recent past-- has been to give maximum leases to all cottage owners on their properties. There is no provision in both branches that the rents may be revised or reviewed every five years, and of course that is either up o_r dpwn. I bQpe �hose �re. all the qu,_estions that were outstanding --. those are all that I had notes of. MR. GRAY: Mr. Chairman •••••• ask a question. I may be too late -- the item was July 16th, 1959. Page 1013 /

(Mr. Gray, cont'd.) ••••• passed -- but the Minister has only reported it tonight. What is being done to encourage, or get settlers on Crown lands? MR. EVANS: I should think the answer to that question, Mr. Chairman, would be this, that we have no concerted sales drive, as it were, to try to sell these parcels of Crown lands. Are you speaking of, for example, agricultural land? MR . GRAY: Crown lands available for settlement. MR. EVANS: Well the way they are disposed of normally is to advertise them and receive any offers that come in.

I'm not aware of any special efforts being made to secure new settlers for these Crovm lands. MR . GRAY: A supplementary question. Are those immigrants or settlers that come in here, are they aware that there is Crown land available for settlement? MR. EVANS: I can say this, Mr. Chairman, that if any of them were to inquire of the government they would be fully informed. I am not able to say whether they are aware of it when they come to the province or not. MR. GUTTORMSON: Mr. Chairman, last night I inquired about the Hungarian part ridge. Was the Minister unable to get any details on it? MR.

EVANS: Would it suit your convenience to read Hansard on that? I did answer the question, perhaps before you were able •••• MR. GUTTORMSON: I was here; I didn't hear you specify the Hungarian partridge. You mentioned the bush partridge but not the Hungarian partridge. (Interjection). If you did, then I'll read Hansard. I didn't catch it; I was here though. MR. EVANS: Just check it over and see: •••• "The Hungarian partridge showed a good increase last year and a further increase is anticipated this year." MR. CAMPBELL: Mr.

Chairman, I don't wish to revive the discussion on these mat ters at all, but I would like to make a request of the Minister with regard to bis statement that bis department had not asked the Federal Government to make provision in their regulations this year for, what is called, an early stubble shoot.

Well, one problem there is that if these duck depredations start early in the year - and they vary according to the kind of harvest wa;i,1;her that there is -- of course I guess the same kind of weather is responsible for the ducks coming down at a particular time to this area, and while it's true that the department is usually quite willing to grant permits to these farmers to 'shoot to scare' on their own land, the difficulty is that if the weather is fit for harvesting, the farmer himself -- tliat' s his busiest season of the year, and he just hasn't the time or opportunity to do any shooting.

So it is necessary, in my opinion, on those occasions to make provision for other people rather than the farmer himself, to be invited on - and they're usually very glad to go -- and I just urge the Minister to keep that in mind, because while the department is quite appreciative of the problem so far as the farmer is concerned, the farmer just hasn't the time, if the weather is good, to do any of that work.

However, rather than . me making representations on it, if I could get the Minister to undertake, as I'm sure he will, that when this group of people come in to discuss with him and bis officials the duck feeding program this year, that he develop that situation with them. I am sure that he will find that those people during the couple of years that they've been working in tensively at that program have become the real experts, so far as our community is concerned, on that problem. And I'd be prepared to take their recommendation with regard to it. And might I make the further request, Mr.

Chairman, that the -- and I appreciate the fact that he has given me a digest of the presentation that Mr. Malaher made at the St. Louis meeting -- if he would see that that is discussed also at the same time. I haven't had the opportunity to read it yet. I think that would be very useful to the delegation as well. They are doing a good work out there and I think they're exceptionally well informed on it and they're the ones that could make, what I believe to be the proper representation .. MR. EVANS: You are right, Sir, and I'm very glad to have had this further discussion.

We are preparing a broad agenda - not simply the one question of duck feeding; we are going to discuss it as broadly as possible. I'll undertake to raise those points. MR. CHAIRMAN: Game and Fisheries Branch. I think the Minister ••• MR. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, I would like to take this opportunity to make a broad statement concerning the commercial fishing industry, and± would welcome as full ad iscussion as we can have. There is nothing that we have undertaken in the department which has taken Page 1014 July 16th , 1959.

(Mr. Evans, Cont'd.) •••••• more time, both on the part of the staff and certainly of mine, than the commercial fishing industry. Those who are members of the special select committee of the legislature -- and I see one or two present now -- will know the compiexities of the commercial fishing business. It's as complex as it can be in many ways. There are the biological aspects of restoring the right sizes and kinds and species of fish in the lakes. Then there are very many human aspects of it. The fishing industry is divided into sections, or divisions.

There are the fishermen; there are the packers; there are the fish companies who export and there are, of course, the officials of the department with the regulations to enforce. And over the years the lake - particularly Lake Winnipeg - has declined very seriously, in the quality and quantity of fish that apparently are there to be taken, and relations between the various sections of the industry have not been good. I think it is not too much to say that there is possibly distrust, or suspicion, existing between the different sections of the fishing industry.

We believe that all of these things can be tackled on a broad basis, and if there is one major program that's been launched in the Department of Mines and Natural Resources in the last twelve months, it has been to make a start -- and I can claim no more than to make a start -- on an improvement in the conditions of the commercial fishing industry in Manitoba. When we took office there was no adequate research in progress; there was some data accumulated but not nearly enough, on which to base any scientific conclusions.

Now, I firmly believe that no permanent cure of the lake in any of its aspects will be effected until we are able to get a scientific basis underneath it to determine whether in fact the measures that are being recommended -- the net sizes, the seasons and all the other factors - are well designed, on a basis of the findings of the biological research, to maintain and impro ve the quantity and quality of fish in the water. But I found that conditions on Lake Winnipeg were such that it was necessary to make a start at once.

It wai;; the general opinion of the fishermen -- and I rely on their opinion a great deal -- it was the general opinion of the fishermen that the fishing pressure had been so heavy for various reasons, that Lake Winnipeg had declined to a point where any further fishing of it would have brought it to a point where it would no longer have been worthwhile, at least in certain sec tions, to engage in the commercial fishing operation on that lake.

And so I have prepared some notes here of the -- summarizing the situation as I formd it, the early steps, and they are only the early steps; that we have initiated, and if it is agreeable to the committee, Mr. Chairman, I will follow my notes closely and lay before the committee as briefly as I can a statement now concerning the fishing industry. Incidently it was a revelation to me as to what an extensive and valuable industry it is. It is one of the most valuable fresh water fisheries certainly on this continent and possibly one of the most valuable fresh water fisheries in the world.

The water area of the Province of Manitoba is some 39, OOO square miles and of this area about 22, OOO square miles of lakes and rivers are fished commercially. These waters have given Manitoba one of the largest and most valuable fresh water fisheries in the world. Our annual production exceeds 39,000,000 with a value at the market of some $6, OOO, OOO. 00 a year. The main species are whitefish, pickerel and sauger and approximately 90% of the production goes to the United States.

It seemed to -me worthwhile to recite a few backgrormd facts because as we discuss this I would like to feel that we are examining it with as much information as possible before us. The main producers are Lakes Winnipeg, Manitoba, Winnipegosis, and Dauphin in the south, and South Indian, Gods, and the Manitoba portion of the Reindeer in northern Manitoba. In addition, we now have more than 90 small lakes and rivers contributing to the over-all production -- a very large number of lakes indeed.

Since the transfer of resources to Manitoba including the commercial fisheries, on July 15th of 1930, the fisheries of the province has been the subject of investigation by two bodies and the first was the Grant Commission of 1933/34 and there was the committee of the Legislature in 1953/54. The report of the Grant Commission dealt mainly with the marketing situation and the legislative committee made some 40 recommendations. The large number of these recomJl1endation of the legislative committee were put into effect.

I suggest however, that recommenq �tti>H II.umber 8 was perhaps the most important but appears to have received the least attentii:>I!. l!lince the time of the report. I would like to read recommendation number 8: "That the government increase the biological research staff for the province to be of a size com parable to thli needs of the fishing industry and to its position as the leading fresh water fish producer in Canada. That such biological work should include the following: to determine the July 16th, 1959. Page 1015

(Mr.

Evans, Cont'd.) ••••• effect of mesh size on fish population; to determine the value of other means of catching fish; to determine the effect of means of making natural spawning grounds accessible to fish; to determine the effect of the volume of fish food on the fish population; to investigate the natural spawning grounds in appropriate rivers and lakes to ascertain the optimmn water level for fishpropagation; to establish close liaison between the Department of Mines and Natural Resources and the Central Fisheries Research Station so that there may be no dupli cation of effort and so that the findings may be shared; to investigate the sturgeon grounds in Manitoba with the view to recommending commercial sturgeon fishing where possible without depleting the species; to investigate the effects of dumping fish and fish offal into fishing waters." Those seem to me to be the bedrock on which any scientific measures to improve the fishing operations and the quantity and quality of fish in the water.

In my opinion all too little was done - very little was done, between the time of that report .and about a year ago. We were fortunate in obtaining the services of Dr. Ken Doan to head up our research program. Within a matter of weeks of his appointment, and working on some material which was already available but never made use of , he was able by scale readings to predict a large catch of whitefish this year and perhaps a peak in 1960. We feel that with increased research there is a distinct possibility that within a few years time we can predict in advance with reasonable accuracy what the catch will be.

The importance of that is this, that on my trips through the lakes I heard so often that "Oh, leave the fish alone and they'll come back naturally --there is a cycle in fish." Well, that is perfectly true except that we we have been able to place these scale readings back now and the catches for several years back there is a periodicity, but the peak is gradually getting lower and lower and lower and

whereas the maximum catch now of whitefish on Lake Winnipeg may reach 2, OOO, OOO pounds it was quite common, I belive many years ago, a number of years ago, that a peak of some 3, 000,000 would be reached. And so there was a steady de cline in graphs which I have seen, of the peak at the tops of these various periods indicating a slow but sure decline although at various periods there would appear to be an upturn which was a false encouragement at that time. The Fisheries Branch now has four biologists on the permanent staff and two additional biologists will shortly be employed. Dr.

Ken Doan is in charge of Lake Winnipeg, Mr. Burt Kooyman in charge of general biological work and Mr. Lief Sunde is doing general biological work in northern Manitoba. Mr. Alexander Fedoruk is working on creel census in the White shell and one of the two biologists shortly to come on the staff will be engaged on pollution problems. I would like to mention the qualifications of Dr. Doan who is heading up our biological research . staff. He was permanently appointed to our staff on March 16th of this year.

In 1937, he ob tained his BA at the University of Toronto with honours in biology; in 1938 his MA at the Univer sity of Toronto; his thesis being "Studies of the Smallmouth Bass in Ontario;" in 1941 he ·ob tained his Ph.D. at Ohio State University.

From 1938 to 1941 he was research assistant in fisheries - both commercial and smallmouth bass; in 1942 to 1944 research associate and lec, turer in ichthyology and fish management at biological stations on Lake Erie under the Ohio State University; in 1944 to 1952 he was acting director of Central Fisheries Research Station,· Win nipeg, rmder the Fisheries Research Board of Canada. So we are acquiring a substantial staff under the heading of one of the leading fish experts, certainly of Canada and one of the leaders on the North American continent.

Immediately upon taking office it was impressed on me that the fisheries particularly in Lake Winnipeg were in need of urgent and immediate action. To obtain first hand information, I visited and had meetings with a large number of commercial fishermen.

Needless to say, many solutions were put forward but there was general opinion on the following points, that the size of mesh should be rigidly enforced; that there was need for more research by competent biologists and these are the opinions not of academic men but of the fishermen themselves; and that on certain lakes reduction in the fishing efforts by the elimi nation of at least one season.

So ·far as the size of mesh is concerned we warned all fishermen by individual letters, prior to the opening of the season that the regulations would be enforced and for that purpose we have employed additonal patrols and an additional road patrol to inspect and check stations and plants located on the mainland. One of these letters was addressed to each fisherman who had a license and fair warning was issued to all of them that the regulations would be enforced and enforced strictly. Last summer there was a large production of small whitefish in the north end of the Page 1016 July 16th, 1959.

{Mr. Evans , Cont'd. ) ••••• lake. While the price for medium and large whitefish was about 259 , the fish grading small, brought anywhere f:rom 59 a pound to not more than ll9 or 129 at the very top. The best evidence I can give you that the enforcement is producing results is in connection with the inspection of a shipment of whitefish comprising 239 boxes which the Direc tor himself made on Monday, July 6th. Of the 239 box es , 7 graded small, 231 graded medium and large, and one box graded jumbo.

It had been mentioned to me at more points than one that the jumbo whitefish was disappearing, that we would no longer see the jumbo. Well, in this particular shipment, it was a delight to see jumbo whitefish again appearing out of Lake Win nipeg. In connection with the 7 boxes of smalls, it was interesting to me to see the nets them selves when they were pulled in. small fish actually caught in large mesh by having the gills entan,gled in the cords or the strings, or whatever they are called or being caught by the teeth or caught around the angle of the jaw.

So the small number of 7 out of 239 boxes was regarded as very satisfactory indeed. The preponderance of medium and large indicates clearly that legal mesh is being used. I suggest that the much higher price for the larger fish will very quickly bring home to the fishermen the advantage of following the regulations themselves. Now let me say this, that this result we do not claim to be by any means solely the result of the enforcement that has been put on the lake this year.

I believe the co-operation of the fishermen has been enlisted in their own self-interest in the enforcement and observance of the mesh size regulations on Lake Winnipeg. I believe that that co-operation on the part of the fishermen can be nurtured -- I believe that it can be improved. It's being freely offered and the attitude of the fishermen themselves is most encouraging and I would like to pay tribute to them at this time. They are under difficulties. It is a difficult profession to begin with. They have been under difficulties and facing what they thought was a declining future.

They had not been organized, and I will come to that point in a few minutes. They had not been joined to gether in any organization but they are coming together now in larger numbers to form a fisher men's federation which !'be lieve will, as time goes on, and these things will take time, but as time goes on I believe they will be able to and they certainly want to undertake more and more of what might be called self-regulation or self-discipline in this regard. Nevertheless, I do point out that the increased enforcement has been a factor as well.

The north end where the whitefish operations are being carried on comprises approxi mately two-thirds of the area of the lake or approximately 6,0 00 square miles. Obviously it's impossible to. fully police so large an area but we are making as good an effort as we can in that direction and we believe that the co-operation of the fishermen working with us will enable these efforts to be successful or increasingly successful. I must not claim too much, or per haps even very much as an accomplishment to date.

The only thing that we have done is to begin on a plan which I am sure must be looked at in terms of 10 , 15 or 20 years for the com plete rehabilitation of the lake or for the very large improvement that we hope for. But as time goes on and the months go by I think we will see signs of progress . At almost every point I visited on Lake Winnipeg I heard reports concerning the small whitefish taken last year and particularly in sturgeon Bay, in close promimity to the whitefish hatchery there. To prevent a recurrence, sturgeon Bay was closed to summer fishing.

But at this point I would like to say this, that we will at all times be studying and restudying the regulations that we make, asking our biologists to follow up to see what rew lts accrue and will always be willing to recon sider any of the regulations once a year. We cannot vary the regulations in mid-season, we cannot vary the regulations after they have been established, but we are always ready to recon sider them. And there does appear to be this factor , that the whitefish may leave Sturgeon Bay in July and,are replaced by pickerel.

That will be studies by the biologists and if that turns out to be true that the small whitefish do leave sturgeon Bay in the month of July, it may be possible to allow some fishing of pickerel in that area after the whitefish have left. In the southeast end of Lake Winnipeg fishing with 5" mesh only, was permitted except at summer resort areas where smaller mesh is permitted to supply fish for the local summer residents.

While the fish companies and others contended that the 5" mesh in the .s outh end would be useless I am very glad to be able to say that the limited number of fishermen who took advantage of the season with 511 in the south, have secured very good quantities of sunfish and some rough fish which they have marketed profitably to mink breeders and some of it has been Jury mm, rn 59 . :E>ag-e 1017

(Mr. Evans, Cont'd.) ••••• sold for consumption. Disposing ••••• at that point I believe a good deal can be done to market for human consumption a good deal of the fish that bas been regarded as purely rough fish in the past or not entirely attractive for human consumption. Some of it, the silver bass , or the sheepshead I believe is a delicacy, I believe tha± it's very popular with people of certain racial extractions and every effort will be made to find every outlet for what bas been called the rough fish.

In the channel area, this is the portion, the narrow portion of the lake extending roughly from MacBeth Point south to Hecla Island. In this area fishing was formerly allowed during the summer, fall and winter, tha± is three seasons . Three seasons in the narrow neck of Lake Winnipeg with only short periods intervening. At a meeting in March attended by the representatives of the fishermen's associations including delegates from Matheson Island and Rabbit point it was agreed that one season must be eliminated and the summer season in the channel area was discontinued.

This meant that a large number of local settlers were left without their usual employment. To compensate them and other similarly affected we com menced widening and improving the Riverton-Matheson Island Road. At the present time over 100 are employed on that project and I am informed that they are satisfied with the arrangements made for them. The whole question of marketing and of the quality of the fish must receive increasing attention. Our investigations to date indicate that there is a great need for additional cold storage facilities so far as fishery products are concerned.

We have been in touch with a num ber of operators regarding the construction of further cold storage facilities but our efforts have not as yet produced concrete results. But out efforts in this connection will be continued. Fish is a very perishable product and must reach the ultimate consumer in first class shape.

The industry in Manitoba and other western provinces is under certain handicaps in this connection; namely of course the distance from the place where the fish is caught to rail head or to service able roads, and the fact that production is marketed in the United States, in New York, in Chicago, iii netroit and Cleveland points up the distances tha± must be travelled. Much can be done to improve and maintain the quality of fish.

We are constantly impressing upon fishermen the necessity to lift their nets a± regular intervals, to see that the fish is properly iced as soon as it is removed from the nets, and this program is continuing to bear ·fruit. As I stated a few moments ago a large percentage or over 90% of our fish is marketed in the United States.

This is quite satisfactory as long as the market continues and continues at the· satisfactory prices that are prevailing now and have prevailed in recent years, but it would be prudent, we believe to try to expand and vary this market as far as possible in other parts of Canada and if possible in other countries of the world. That will be kept constantly in view and marketilig and merchandising plans prepared accordingly. During September, 1958, I visited a large number of fishing stations on Lake Winnipeg during the fall fishing operations.

Places visited were Pine Dock, Matheson Island, Black Bear Island, Dog Head, Calder's Dock, Riverton, Hnausa, Arnes and Gimli. Fishermen from HeCla and Rabbit Point also took

part in these particular discussions. Toward the end of September a fishermen's meeting was called at Winnipegosis which was well attended. In addition to the Winnipegosis fishermen, represen tatives attended from Camperville, Duck Bay and Overflowing River. On October 3rd a meeting of Lake Manitoba fishermen was held at Portage la Prairie. Fifty fishermen attended this meeting representing Delta, Portage la Prairie , St. Ambroise, Wes1bourne, Amaranth, Lang ruth, St. Laurent, Oak Point and The Narrows .

Then on March 3oth, 1959 , a meeting of the Lake Winnipeg fishermen was held in the Marlborough Hotel . 60 fishermen attended. Special delegates were invited and a large number of areas were represented. The reference there is this , that we invited the members of the Fishermen' s Federation where they had been established, or where they had established local associations , but there were large areas where no siich federations existed and at those points we invited special delegates to attend to give the advice in connection with their areas.

Unfortunately, due to ice conditions fishermen from the north end of the lake were unable tci attend personally but were represented by members of the Indian Affairs Branch. ·At this point, I might say that the question that was dealt with by my honourable . friend for St. George i!; also something I would like to refer tO. We did not invite fishermen from Winnipegosis to come to this Lake Winnipekfishermen' s meeting--perhaps it was ignorance on my part, I did not realize that in. the winter time they travelled from their location over to Lake Winnipeg in order to take

part in that winter fishing. It was an oversight, and as . Page 1018. July 23rd, 1959 •

(Mr. Evans , Cont'd. ) •••••• honourable members probably know I overtook that at a later stage, and .had a special meeting with them. The formation of a federa tion resulted from the con vention convened in Winnipeg of the 30th of March and the 3lst. Forty voting delegates attended and elected a tentative executive. Areas represented by the delegates were Lake Winnipeg, Lake Manitoba, Lake Winnipegosis and the northern lakes. There is an approximate membership of 300 now in the various locals of the federation.

In connection with the fed eration, let me say that in the past there has been little or no co-operation among the fishermen themselves. The individual fishermen worked in their own way , often to their own disadvantage. Now an organization exists through which any fisherman C3Il deal with problems aff ecting the industry.

While the membership is small, it serves as a foundation for a larger and healthier association, and as the commercial fishermen become aware of the role which the association can and will play in the aff airs of the industry, they will, I am confi dent, support the association in the work which it is carrying on. And I may say it will be an object of policy of the department to encourage the growth of the Fisherman's Federa tion and of the local associations.

The aims and the objects of the fe deration are to maintain an organization, to assist, promote encourage and support the interest and welfare of the industry as a whole; to promote and improve harmony and the co-operation between the members of the association and the government departments; and generally to advance mutual interests of those engaged in the industry. Mr. Chairman, I thought it might be useful for the members to have, a

summary, it might be called, of the activities that the department has engaged in, in the last year in the fish ing industry to act as a background if you will, for any questions they may wish to ask. MR. GRAY: Mr. Chairman, I hope no one in the House will accuse me of making a comment or two on this subject, charging me with not knowing anything about this subject. I admit -- I don't know, but afte r listening to the Honourable Minister I think perhaps I got a better idea.

I agree with the Minister the value of the fish industry, and it is very encouraging that 90% are being exported, I feel however , that the people of this province should be able to have a valuable food at a reasonable price. At the· present time it is almost prohibitive. First of all it is a very healthy food, and second as far as I'm concerned I do not need to question whe ther it is Kosher or not But the price, when you go down to the retail stores, and I suppose you could ask your wives and they'll tell you that to buy fish for a meal would cost them about over $2. 00 and this is not buying too much.

What I would like to know is this. In the report on page 67 it gives a

summary of the production in the last 10 years. I'll take only the last year, and by the way I see a reduction from 1955 to 1957-58 , but it says that the quality in pounds produced was over 31, 000 ,0 00 pounds. The value to the fisherman was only $3 ,2 70, 000 . I mean the value in pro duction, but the value to the fisherman was only $3 ,270, 000 and the value as marketed is $5, 900 , 035, about $3 , OOO, OOO is missing between the producer and the consumer. It would be interesting to know where the $3 , 000, 000 is being spent or disappeared.

Would it be possible to see that the difference between the marketed value and what the producer gets -- the amormt is far too much -- far too much. In other words a shortage of $3 , OOO, OOO between what the producer gets and what the consumer pays. I cann ot say where the money disappeared but I think that the people of the province are entitled to get a valuable food at a much lower cost in order to encour age them to consume a food which is healthy and a food which is produced in this province.

I don •t know the price that they are selling it when it is exported; perhaps the American people can aff ord to pay more, but I think that the price that the average family has to pay in the retail stores for fish is prohibitive and not many can aff ord to use it. So the question is, "Where did the $3 , OOO, OOO disappear"? And a second question I would like to ask the Honourable Minister, is: Can he tell us the nil.mber of fishermen who get their existence or their subsistence solely from their industry, in other words how many fishermen are there in the province whose sole income is from their operations? MR .

EVANS: Mr. Chairman, on the system marketing, I must say that I have not been able to make much progress in that direction. We feel that our first objective was to tackle the biological factors to see if we can restore the quantities and quality of fish in that lake. We are beginning our studies of the marketing system and I hope when we meet again or possible a year from now I might be able to give a more satisfactory answer about price spreads and matters of July 16th, 1959 . Page 1019

(Mr. Evans, cont'd .) .... that kind . Unfortunately I'm not able to say because I have no in formation on it. With regard to the number of fishermen who earn their living solely from fishing I may not be able to secure that information because a great deal of the fish is taken by, in Lake Man itoba for example, by the people who largely farm and then fish in the winter. I think the same is true of all the lakes - that most of the fishermen will have other means of earning as well . So I doubt very much if I can obtain that figure. continued on next page Pag � 10-20 July 16th, 1959 .

MR. GUTTORMSON: Mr. Chairman, I listened with great interest to the outline of the fishing industry in Manitoba given by the Minister. I'm sorry he didn't give more details on the fishing industry in Lake Manitoba. He dealt with Lake Winnipeg rather fully. The plight of the fishermen in Lake Manitoba is very serious . The Minister will recall that at the last session I discussed the Lake Manitoba fishermen and the last winter they had a very bad winter. The price is excellent but the catch is very very poor.

The biggest percentage of all fish caught in Lake Manitoba last winter was rough fish, ' but the biggest percentage being mullets or commonly know as sucker. And the fisherman received only 19 a pound for the mullets and other prices varying up to 59 for some of the other species of rough fish. The Minister will recall that I urged him to give some consideration to constructing a Fish Processing Plant in the interlake area in order that the fishermen coald fish rough fish on a profitable basis. At the present day prices of rough fish they just can't make a go of it.

Last winter a big percentage of the fishermen on Lake Manitoba just had to pull out their nets as early as. the beginning of January because they were going so far into the hole. They tell me that they can make a living fishing rough fish if they can receive approximately 49 a pound. Unfo rtunately I don't know what the answer is to the problem on Lake Manitoba because if you stop fishing -- just let the Lake lay idle f or a few years - the rough fish, they will just increase that much more.

Therefor e the fisher men feel and I think there's some :uierittot heir argument that something should be done to try to get rid of the rough fish and the only means we can do it is to fish the lake and make it profitable for the fishermen to do it. Price of pickerel last, as I said befor e, was excellent. They were getting as high as·409 a pound for it, but unfortunately they would lift their nets and maybe get a matter of a few pounds from each lift, and this certainly doesn't pay wages of men working on the lake, and as you know the nets and equipment used by the fishermen is extremely high.

I understand in previous years the idea of a Fish Processing Plant has been considered by private enterprise and it isn't a profit able business; but I felt that if the government went into this business they could probably break even and �complish something by getting rid of the rough fish in the lake because as the situation stands today the fishermen are just going to have to abandon the lake and the condition is just going to get worse. This spring I was at one of the creeks in the Silver Bay Area and watched the men taking mullets from the creek and I saw them get as much as 4, OOO pounds to a lift.

They were selling this to some of the fish companies here and I think they were just getting, if my memory serves me correctly, roµghly 1 1/2 to 2 9 a pound depending whether it was round or headless. I don't know if the Minister has given any consideration to this plant but I think it certainly would be worth considering in view of the serious plight of the fishermen today. Another thing that's been giving considerable concern is the fact of Lake Winnipeg fisher men are coming over.

I know the Minister said he would look into this when we attended that meeting at Portage la Prairie last year but despite the department's interest in this matter a large number are still coming over, although some of them left earlier than usual in view of the fact that the fishing was so poor last year and they were paying high wages. I know of one or two instances where a man was paid $300. a month just to purchase a commercial operators license in order that an outside fisherman could come in and work the lake.

At the fall session last year I, through an Order for Return, I obtained the names of all the fishermen with licenses on Lake Manitoba and made several checks all along the lake and at least two or three dozen in stances the fisherman who gave addresses in towns along Lake Manitoba were. not even known by the Postmaster or the merchants in the area. The Minister mentions fisherman's organization.

I think this is an excellent idea and I would encourage him to do everything in his power to expand this organization and give the man, I think his name is Helgi T. • • . the organizer all the help he can because this is the only way that the fisherman is going to have a united organization and one that can accomplish something. It's quite true as the Minister said earlier the fishermen haven't been organized in the past and their ideas have not been jelled into one, and they have in too many instances, been working against one another.

Another thing I would like to see the Minister do, and it may be diff icult to do, is to en courage in some ways the use of rough fish for comm ercial.purposes such -- take northern pike, there isn't a thing wrong with it. It's quite true it's not as nice as pickerel, has more bones in it but it's certainly an edible fish, and we hear a lot about people finding it tough today with the July 16th, 1959 . Page 1021

(Mr. Guttormson, cont'd. ) .••. high cost of living, the poor families. The member for Inkster mentioned it. The northern pike could easily be sold for 15 and 20� -- this is just a hypothetical figure -- at the same time the fisherman could make a profitable living taking this fish from the lake. At the present time they may be getting 2 and 3� a pound for it and they just can't fish that species and make a living on it. In closing I just wonder if the Minister would tell me what prompted his department to clos ing the lake to winter whitefishing between Reindeer Island and Long Point?

Was it an error when the order. was first issued or was it the fact that they changed their mind about it? Because it certainly caused a great deal of alarm in the area concerned because all the fishermen are certainly in favour of conservation, but when the order came out that fishermen to the south were allowed to ake out 2, OOO, OOO pounds in the summer months in this particular area, and the winter fishermen were unable to take out 250, OOO pounds in the winter time, they couldn't see much from the point of conservation.

And in addition to that even if the limit is 2, OOO, OOO pounds more than that is likely to be taken because there's a great deal of spoilage in the summer months, while in the winter months there is no spoilage and everything taken from the lake is used. MR. EVANS: Would it be convenient if I dealt with one point at a time ? I would like to deal with the points, and the very good points that the Honourable Member for st. George has raised.

With regard to fish processing of the rough fish, rendering them into fish meal and re covering the oils and that sort of thing, this is a very real project and we have been working very closely with one private enterpriser who wants to go into that business. One of the difficulties in that has been the cost of transporting the rough fish to the processing plant which would take up such a very large part of any value that the fish might have.

And so his plans are, and I be lieve he is still proceeding with them although he has not announced his intention to go ahead, is to put a processing plant on a barge and take the barge to the fish, and render down the fish then on the barge and ship the product when he comes back to port. That's a new departure -- it holds promise of development.

We're working closely with it, not only in the Department of Mines and Natural Resources, but the Department of Industry and Commerce as well, having to do then in that case with the marketing of it and helping in his studies of financial arrangements and capital .ization .and so on. So that project is alive - we are making progress with it and I do hope that means will be found to establish a rough fish processing plant as recommended by the member.

With regard to.Lake Winnipeg fishermen fishing on Lake Manitoba, it's the intention of the Department to restrict the fish operators licenses to genuine Lake Manitoba fishermen. We do not attempt to, and I think it would be wrong, to tell those operators whom they might hire as fishermen. They can obtain licenses for any of their employees to work for them as fisher men but this matter is really in the control of the Lake Manitoba fishermen themselves.

If they will restrict the -- let me put it the other way -- that we will issue these licenses in the first place to genuine residents of Lake Manitoba with the exception of a small number, which fisher men have, or operators have come from the Lake Winnipeg area for many years past, and it was decided last year, not to deprive them of a customary way of earning their living, but the number is small. The honourable member will have recognized those names on the list with which he was furnished at the last sessi on.

If there has been any such action as he describes under which one of the Lake Manitoba fishermen themselves have sold their operators license then thafmuch blame surely must attach to a Lake Manitoba fisherman for allowing an operator from the outside to come in and use his license under what might be called, false pretenses. We have said we will do our best to try to restrict the operators licenses to genuine Lake Manitoba fishermen - . that policy still holds and we'll try and work on it to see that it's carried out •. With regard to rough fish for food, I couldn't agree more.

I think. the pike .is a good com mercial food. I saw pike being processed and frozen at the Armstrong�Gimli plant when I was in Gimli.

The extent of their market I do not know, but it was being filleted and frozen in the small packets and I didn't enquire at that time, the extent of their market; I believe it's a grow ing market; I believe it can be encouraged; it's a lower price and a thoroughly good palatable food, and anything the Department can do when we come to the marketing and merchandising in vestigations that we propose to· carry on, we will pay attention to the. marketing for human con sumption of these other fish which are called rough fish.

Well a pike is not, in my opinion, properly described as a rough fish; it's a good sport fish; itls ·one of our greatest perhaps ·the : greatest attraction we have for American tourists here. · They like to. come and catch it and .they Page 1022 .Julye 16�; 1959 .

(Mr. Evans, cont'd. ) .... like to eat it, and I believe the fish can be marketed and merchandised in such a way to appear very attractive as human food. There is the silver bass or sheepshead, I think those are interchangeable terms, which is a thoroughly palatable fish and can be -- and in other parts of the continent - is sold for human consumption. I believe the market for that can be expanded, and likewise with some other species of what are called rough fish. My own opinion is that the merchandising aspects of all this - the advertising is an important factor.

I don't know how the other members of the committee would feel but I would feel much more attract ed to a fish that's called a silver bass than one that's called a sheepshead. Now that may be just a particular peculiarity of my own but I think the advertising and the method of merchandising of these things will require attention and will repay attention. With regard to the winter fishing on the Long Point-Reindeer area, I think the original restriction was put on because we did not see at that point a population which was dependent upon that winter fishing area.

I personally, and perhaps it's my own personal fault, did not realize that the fishermen who depended upon that area really came from over near Lake Manitoba.

When it was drawn to our attention that their take was only I believe some 50 or 60, OOO pounds and that the pricfJ in the winter is substantially higher than in the summer time, it was decided that this would neither damage the whitefish fishery, was important to some well equipped fishermen that I met when I was up north atAshern-- I had a meeting there with them specialiy -- it was an im portant source of revenue to them and they were well equipped for it and had investments, it was decided wise to reopen that season, and that is the reason for that. MR. GUTTORMSON: Mr. Chairman, just one point.

The Minister said I quite agree with this problem on Lake Winnipeg fishermen coming to Lake Manitoba is a difficult one. I don't argue the point at all, but sometimes a fisherman isn't to blame for what's going on because sometimes a man who isn't even a fisherman purchases a comm ercial operators license for a Lake Winnipeg fisherman and in effect he goes out there on the lake maybe as an employee but all the equipment comes from the other lake, and l can't substantiate this, butJhere arEJ fre,quent rumours that these men are bringing over small mesh nets.

Now it's quite true that we have Game Guardians checking these men and this story may not prove correct but these·stories cer tainly frequent the lake, and I again repeat - I know it's. a difficult thing to do but the fishermen al'en't to blame for it. They get some man -- I know of o:ie case in particular -- he isn't even a fisherman, he got paid $300. a month just to purchase a commercial operators license., and these men from the other lake used it and he was just sort of a 'fish' for them.

I mean he didn't do anything but draw the money and they were the commercial operators and they had big equipment; they had snowmobiles and much better equipment than many of our local men and that's what, caused a lot of the trouble on the lake and the Minister knows- we had that meeting in: Portage la Prairie and he heard the views. One other thing I slipped up a while ago_ I was· going to ask the Minister, has he given any thought to the possibility of establishing a cannery for. rough fish on the Lake? I meant to ask him a while ago and it slipped my mind. MR. JOHNSON (Gimli): .Mr.

Chairman, these fishermen from Lake :Winnipeg that go over to Lake Manitoba. The Honourable Member for St. George knows I know each one of these .men. They're neighbours of mine in Gimli. They're excellent fishermen - first clas.s .men. And these men on Lake Manitoba that he mentions, these men have small equipment, they're mixed fisher men, they're not full-time fishermen; and these men on Lake Winnipeg who have the modern equipment are able to go over to Lake Manitoba and they fish there.

This neighbour of mine who is a very competent fisherman fished under the license of this Lake Mani.toba resident:who had no equipment and wanted him and his brother to come over and fish with them. These men tell me that they have more 'savvy' - Lake Manitoba is a shallow lake and they use nets almost to the bottom of tb:e water; they have such big equipment and they do very.well; ·a nd they tell me that because of their full time activity in fishing, they are able to make a better fishing.,s,eason for the members over there. And.I think it's just as simple as that.

These II)en fro1n Gimlt . that went to Lake Manitoba· last winter to fi.sh eerta iply: never: put .an ,illegal net :in.the :la�e: 1.J , think if-th ey did.we'd certainly know. about. it;' and these men ·don't want-to violate the·1aw::J:;iµJ , they want.to fish,. and· they want:to make a living. · Both oftpem: are married-to girls,fromJ?or tage la Prairie and they spend their winters over in Portage :and the.Del-ta regfon, and fish· with these oth.er men ,-: and.that's just about as .simple 'a problem·· .. • •·• MR •.

GU'.J'TORMSON: I sympat}ii ze: with the views of. th�Honourable·Minister.butJf theY July 16th, 1959.

(Mr. Guttormson, cont'd. ) •... don't curtail it, wha t's going to happen to the lake. You're going to have it so crowded that nobody - it's going to drive. everybody out of a living. MR. JOHNSON: May I ask the honourable gentleman a question? What was ever done about licensing on Lake Winnipeg in the previous government's regime? MR. GUTTORMSON: I'm not answerable for any thing the previous government done. MR. JOHNSON: Well, we're doing the right thing here. MR. HRYHORCZUK: Mr. Chairman, I would like to make a contribution to the debate. I hope it will be of some value. MR.

EVANS: Would it be convenient for me to answer the Honourable Member for St. George's last question first .... MR. HRYHORCZUK: If you prefer it that way, it's all right with me. MR. EVANS: I think it would suit me better if that's agreeable to the committee. With regard to fish canning, there are very distinct possibilities I cannot hold out any hope that at the moment we have a practical operation in sight, but there are very great possibilities in that con nection and particularly in regard to northern pike.

There are -- it's quite possible to manu facture and can fish balls and fish cakes, and pike are well adapted to that sort of thing. There are other forms in which they can be canned and frozen and exported and I believe there are real possibilities in that connection. Now I don't want to say that we have either taken any steps toward securing a cannery; we have it in mind and it is one valuable suggestion and I'm glad it has been emphasized tonight. We'll be following that as fast as we can.

I believe in other count ries, for example I believe in New Zealand, they market sharks under the title of Silver streak. Well it's a much more palatable title and a palatable fish and that's anofuer of these what you might call 'merchandising angles' 1hat we're going to follow through. MR. GUTTORMSON: I was delighted when the Minister said that consideration is being given to a processing plant and the possibility of using barges. He didn't include Manitoba or both lakes. Are both lakes included for that? MR. EVANS: The one operation that's being contemplated now is for Lake Winnipeg. MR.

GUTTORMSON: I hope the Minister will give the same consideration to Lake Mani- toba. MR. EVANS: Well, we'll try to find someone to do it. MR. HRYHORCZUK: Mr. Chairman, I listened with great interest to what the Minister had to say on this particular item and I think it is of very great importance to the Province of Manitoba and to very many people living.in it. I was rather sorry they didn't mention Lake Win:iipegosis, a lake that produces the finest pickerel on the continent, I believe, and the great est quantities of it. (Interjection) •..

Now I've said that I was going to be sort of a suit maker here but, maybe it will start something when I make that contention but the experts will tell you, Mr. Chairman, that I am correct in that statement. Now the Honourable the Minister dealt with the various aspects of our fishing industry - he stressed in particular marketing and enforcement of our regulations which I think are import ant, but it looked to me as if he was pointing his remarks more in the direction of the utilization, the proper utilization of the fish we now have in the lakes. I would say; Mr.

Chairman, 1hat it is every bit as important if not more important, to find ways and means of replenishing the stocks in our various commercial lakes. I had the opportunity of sitting on the committee that investi gated the comm ercial fishing here in Manitoba, and we had fishermen speak to us on all of these lakes, including some of the norfuern lakes; we had scientists, biologists and experts express their opinions to us, and after listening to I don't know how many briefs, Mr. Chairman, and how many people, we ended up slightly wiser than we were when we started but not too much.

There's an absolute lack of knowledge of fish habits and so forth; there is no concensus of opin ion even among the biologists or the experts. As an example we had a Dr. Kennedy give evidence to 1he committee, who was a federal biologist, a very eminent man, and he threw ·a statement before the committee which found various reactions, but most of them were reactions of consid erable surprise. And that statement was that you cannot overfish a lake. Now I'm no P.Xpert, but I don't agree with him and I agree with him on one condition that you cannot overfish a lake if you can maintain the source of supply.

I believe, Mr. Chairman, that it is all important that we learn as quickly as we can, what we can do to improve the propagation of fish, andl believe that both the propagation and the Page l,024 July 16th, 1959.

(Mr. Hryhorczuk, cont'd. ) .... available food are the answer to most of our problems - saying again, Mr. Chairman, that the question of marketing and so forth is very import ant. I might only say this that during our investigations we discovered that the competition on the market for the fish shipped out of Manitoba is very keen.

There is fish coming in from both the Atlantic and the Pacific Oceans as well as from some countries overseas o.n to the continent ; and it's not only a matter of finding a market but it's a matter of putting quality on the market that can com pete with all of these others that are taking our markets away from us. Now insofar as propagation is concerned, Mr. Chairman, from what we were told at this commi ttee, it would appear that what has actually happened in most of Manitoba and probably elsewhere, but in Manitoba in particular, is that our natural spawning grounds have been destroy ed.

Now there are fish that spawn in the lakes and there are fish that spawn in stream s. Now just let's take a look for a mom ent what has happened to our streams in the past 30 or 40 yea rs. I recall in my own days when I was still a sma ll lad and went out fishing, in the spring of the year you could see fish by the thousands in every little creek and stream and run that was a tribu - tary to a river running into one of these lakes. (Interjection) ... Oh no, no, no, not for jacks.

They were mainly mullets and I'm going to come to that because I disagree with some of the statement made here today that we should destroy our rough fish as quickly as we can and I don't agree with that. We used to have, in the streams we used to have the mullet come up - no the pickerel. ... (lnterj.ection) .... Now just a second, just one moment. The p·;ckerel come up first, then the jacks and then the mullets, but the mullets.

Well I -- it's a peculiar thing, I don't know whether in the House whenyou're in commi ttee, whether you 're supposed to take for granted that the man who has som ething to say is being honest about what he's talking about or not, or whether that's restricted only to us when we're in ses sion and the Speaker is in the Chair - but I have seen them.

And if they hadn't been doing that in the areas that the gentleman who contradict me live in, then they've been just a bit too late, because today you can hardly see a pickerel come up the stream and as far as the mullets and the jacks are concerned, I don't think that you can see 5% of the fish that used to come up 30 - 35 years ago. Now what has happened? In the first place our streams are no longer clean water stream s. Our streams have -- all our drainage is put into them -- by drainage ditches and the construction of roads -- and all this silt is carried into the stream s.

The source of the sma ll creek and the sm all river has been cut off and drained into the larger streams running into the lakes, and today the fish actnally have no natural place to spawn in it. Not only are the creeks fill ed with silt and debri s, but the num ber of creeks has been cut tremendously by our drainage and road system .

One other thing has happened to our streams that do rema in, and that is that all this water that's been drained into these streams and the runoff is fast, and those fish that do get up there to spawn, and do spawn, the fry or the fingerlings or the young get trapped into potholes and don't get a chance to get back into the lake. And that is happening right throughout the west shore of Lake Winnipe gosis. Whether it happens near Lake Mani toba, I don't know - maybe the fish there have different habits . Now it would appear, Mr.

Chairman, that we must use every effort to restore the natural spawning grounds of fish. There is the question of hatcheries and here again, you have no con census of opin ion. There are some experts that will tell you that hatcheries are the thing that we should us e as: much as possible and others will tell you that we should di scontinu e them al- · together. We had a hatchery on Lake Winn ipegosis, a whitefish hatchery, years ago and in s·pite of the hatchery the whitefish just about disappeared out of the lake. We have another hatchery there but that hatchery is mostly used for stocking other lakes.

Now at this particular hatchery, Mr. Chairman, which is on the Duck River, which empties into Duck Bay, to which hundreds of fishermen from all over this continent congregate - that's angling, sports fishermen - even there the numbers of fish and quality of fish are slowly going down. Now the natives living in this particular area have one answer, they think, to this whole problem, and that is that when the pickerel go up to spawn -- and they do -- when the pickerel go up to spawn, the fingerlings don 't come back out of the stream until fairly late in the summer or late in the fall.

They tell me that this particular stream is full of sm all jackfish, which they claim is a different species of jack fish than which you get in the lake .... (Interje ction) .... It could be. They tell me that these jacks destroy the small fish as they come down the river to go back into the lake, and they're so insis tent on this that I would suggest that the Minister have one of his field staff, or one of his biolo gists if he has one to spare, study this particular suggestion. There may be som ething in it. July 16th, 1959 . Page 1025

(Mr. Hryhorczuk, cont'd. ) . . . . Now what else has happened t.o destroy our spawning grounds? The pollution of our bigger rivers and I think that you may find, eventually that Lake Winnipeg may in some part be suff ering from that. But there is no doubt that our industries are not im proving the faciliti es for the propagation of our fish. I think it's quite evident in such places as in the area of Flin Flon, where everything is being done to try t.o keep the ref use from getting into the lake and killing off the fish. But I want t.o say again, Mr.

Chairman, that I do believe that we should put as much effort int.o propagation and the study of food supplies as we do in the utilization of our fish in the lakes and the marketing of them. MR. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, I think my honourable friend has just given a very com6're hensive outline of the shortcomings of the last administration of which he was a member, in al lowing the fisheries to come into the condition at which they have arrived. A MEMBER: Hear ! Hear! MR.

EVANS: He is going to have far better success apparently in persuading us to do what he recommends than he was able to have in connection with his own colleagues of the government of which he was a member. I wonder if he missed the point of -- pretty near my entire present ation was that we must replenish the right sizes and species of fish in the lake to be available for the fishermen to fish .

That's the whole objective in hiring four additional biologists, in hav ing engaged one of the experts of the continent in coming here to supervise our fish biological researh; the whole object of the exercise is to restore fish in the waters for the fishermen to go and catch. With regard to the research and the matter of the opinions of Dr. Kennedy, one of the first things I did, was to put our biologists in t.ouch with the Dominion biology people in the Fisheries, with the obj ect of having our biologists consult Dr.

Kenney, and see whether each could learn from the other, or if we can get rid of this controversy - if it can be called that - of our difference of opinion between Dr. Kenne.dy and almost everybody elso who has made a study of fishe ries.

I cannot accept, as the honourable member cannot accept, the view that the fishery on Lake Winnipeg particularly, and that's the one on which we have been concentrating at first - we will spread our efforts to the other lakes as our forces are gathered - but we have -- I've seen a fish that came out of that lake, and I cannot believe that more intense fishing would have any other result, especially if smaller and smaller mesh were used than the further decline of the fish and the further unbalancing of the populations of the lake. .

With regard to pollution, perhaps the honourable member missed the point, when I said that one of the new biologists will concentreate on the factor of pollution. It is a factor and one that we must study and see what remedial action can be taken later. I might point out that the Manitoba Paper Company has, at their own expense, put in a bark disposing plant in connect ion with their paper mill, at a cost - I believe - of close t.o a million dollars to themselves t.o burn-up the bark and no longer deposit it in the river where it comes down into the Bay.

So on the matter of pollution, it is receiving special attention in the department and some progress, I will say, at the initiative and at the expense of the Manitoba Paper Company, has been made. With regard to the drainage that was coming from the tailings of the Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting Company at Flin Flon, I believe they have constructed a weir there now, across a creek that ran through that area and carried the pollution into the lake. It's our hope that · that pollution will then wither away and decline and the input has been stopped at that particular point.

I might just for the inf ormation of the members who have spoken, give a very rough outline of some of the headings under which the research program is being headed up. In the first place there will be research into what has been termed the "standing crops" of the various lakes . "What are the fish populations of the various lakes - Winnipeg, Manitoba, Winnipegosis and the others?" 'The factor of unbalanced population that my honourable friend from st. George .mention ed.

" 'The onset of certain species such as the mullets and the carps and other rough fish and their apparent proportionate increase perhaps at the expense of the more highly priced kinds of fish. " I might say this, that we hardly know what the situation is. These are only guesses and my honourable friend pointed that out so clearly; we just don't know. We didn't have the re search in the past and the thing that I find so hard to understand is that they didn't even cause the data to be accumulated upon which research could be made.

Some of it was found in the de partment but not nearly enough and this is chargeable to sheer neglect on the part of the last administration and I think my honourable friend has pointed that out very clearly in his speech. Page 1026 July 16th, 1959.

(Mr. Evans, cont' d. ) .... The next I believe Jt to be true. There is res earch into new fish-finders. We have experimented with electrical almost depth finding equipment, electronic equipment, for the location of fish in the waters . It is hoped that res earch alone this line will locate not only where the schools of fish may be, but at the depth they may be from the bottom, which will be of assistance to fishermen in determing at what depth in the water they should set their nets -- whether close to the bottom or half way up or shallow.

Then there is an experim ent going on, . some of it last year and some of it this year, with the submarine fish trap. One of the difficulties is that if a fish is taken of a kind of a large size that is too small in a gill net, it is probably dead by the time it is taken out of the water. One of the advantages of a trap net would be this : that the net could be raised, the fish that are too sm all could be released in the water again and then you could lnld the fishermen and the fish com panies resp onsible for any small fish that are found in their possession.

If it is quite possible and feasible to return the fish live to the lake, they have no excuse in retaining it and killing it and bringing it in for processi ng. But expe riments are proceeding in those two directions, one with trap nets and the other wij;h electronic fish-finders. The factor of the spawning ground of course is fundamental or basic to the wh ole thing. I think the honourable member has outlined one problem which was raised at many points when I went on these junkets around the lakes and that is that the rate of flow of the streams has in fact changed.

And we have a considerable res earch in prospect on the effect of water levels , both the water level of the lake and the factor that he me ntions of stream flow, which may be int errupted before the mature fish can return to the lake, and those factors will be studied by the scie ntist s. Then comes the whole question of fish movement.

It is said and I don't think it has ever been proved; I have asked questions and they say that no one can prove it, but they do say that the pickerel, particularly in Lake Winni peg, will migrate from the north part of the lake to the south part of the lake at a certain time of the year. Then the fishing season is set so that in the narrow neck of the lake, the fall season is set to take thes e pickerel.

It will i;nake a very great difference· to the setting of the fish regulations and the se asons if it is proved defin itely that these fish do in fact migrate that way at a certain time of the year, because we will then have a better idea as to what fishing pressure a given area can stand. And that sort of res earch is under way at the present time. There is quite a substantial outline of a tentative proposed outline of the res earch program. It does embrace most of the questions that my honourable friend raised and does touch on a good many of the points the Honourable Member for st. George raised.

We will prog ress with this as fast as we can. MR. HRYHORCZUK: Mr. Chairman, I'm sorry that the Minister didn 't see fit to accept my suggestions in the spirit they were given . I, for one, am getting pretty tired of hearing that shop-worn and tattered expression of ''why didn't you do it when?". Because to me it's silly . It's silly ! It's the silliest type of an expression that was ever created and because it has been used so often, it becomes sillier. The Minister himse lf admitted just a few mom ents ago that it will be fifteen or twenty years before they can expect any results from their work.

He has also stated that there were no sources from which this information could be obtained. This particular problem in fisheries is not restricted to Manitoba; the knowledge isn't there . When we started out with these programs and all the knowledge that the Honourable the Minister based what he had to say on today, was knowledge that was supplied from the work that the pre vious government did. He didn 't add anything new and he has been there a year now. Now the whole thing is this, I always take the attitude and I intend to take the attitude, Mr.

Chairman, that if anybody on this side of the House has a suggestion to make, it should be accepted in the spirit that it is given, instead of coming out with the defens e, which is no defense at all. The Honourable Minis ter knows that it is difficult, even now, to obtain expert biologists to do the res earch work that he wants done. Two or three years ago, it was much more diffi cult than it is today . And he must realize that. Then why come out with the statement that the previous government failed to do what it should have done?

Well, I want to say to the Honour !lble Minister that five years from today we'll be able to tell him exactly the same thing and we pan refer to his speech in Hansard a few mome nts ago, and he won't have any defense. Because after all is said and done.- you won't need it? Well , I think I could use an expression that would be very appropriate but !'Will refrain from doing it. I think you will need it. I'm glad to see �t you have that optimism and I hope it turns out, but you'll also find out that in the walk of :!ulY 16th, 1959. Page 1027

(Mr. Hryhorczuk, cont'd.) .... life, especially the walk that a Minister has to follow, there are a lot of pitfalls and obstacles that are not so easy to overcome. Now insofar as the program it self is concerned, the Minister admitted that we carried out almost all of those recommendations with the exception of No. 8 -- which is an important one. But we certainly made a start on that No. 8 and he hasn't in one year -- now one year is a solid twelve months -- he hasn't even got to first base. In fact he's got two strikes on him now.

If the Honourable Minister and his col leagues had spent more time in their departments during the last twelve years instead of spend ing them where they did -- or twelve months -- they'd probably have some information that they can't give us now. A MEMBER: You're not going to take that now -- come on. 1\ffi. LEMUEL HARRIS (Logan): Mr. Chairman, I've been waiting a long time to say a few words. (Hear! Hear!) How many fish hatcheries have we in Manitoba and what type of fish do they stock there? How many lakes do they restock, approximately? Do they restock Lake Winnipeg and Manitoba?

Have you spoke of the lakes being depleted of fish, and what i.s the new process of preserving fish to send away, as I've seen it in the papers a few times, to preserve fish that is boxed to be sent long distance? MR.

EV.A.'IS: In answer to the Honourable'Member from Logan, the following are the locations at which fish eggs are produced: There is the Clearwater Lake Spawn Camp, which is lake trout, . . . . and whitefish; the Whitemud River Spawn Camp, and in that they trans ferred last year to the Wbiteshell for sportsfishing waters in the Wbitesbell area, some ten million eggs; the Wbiteshell Trout Hatchery; the Dauphin River Whitefish Hatcilery; the Duck Bay Pickerel Hatchery; the 8\van Creek Pickerel Hatchery; the Ebb and Flow Pickerel Hatchery, and there is additional miscellaneous fish culture work. · With respect to preservation, as far as I know, at the present time the only means of preserving fish for export is freezing it.

I believe there has been some discussion in the press recently of some other fish preservative and I am not acquainted with that process. MR. GUTTORMSON: Mr o Chairman, for the benefit of the Committee, I find it difficult to believe that the habit of the pickerel is different in one lake from another.

And certainly on Lake Manitoba the pickerel does not precede the mullets because as the Minister well knows, each spring his department grants permission to the fishermen to take mullets out of the creeks, and when the pickerel begins to come up the creeks they order the fishermen to stop so that the pickerel will not be taken in the trap nets which are used to take the mullets. One point I would like to ask the Minister is one of regulations. At least earlier i.n the session when we mentioned about the north end of Lake Manitoba, he said the regulations have been changed.

I looked into the Gazette and I could find no trace of this order. Could be explain this; who has the say over the regulations? Is it done on a Federal-Provincial basis or 0 • • • ? MR. EV ANS: These fishing regulations are by Federal Order-in-Council. MR GUTTORMSON: By Federal Order-in-Council. MR . EVANS: Yes. MR. GUTTORMSON: Well then on the point that I have raised on the north end of the lake, bad the Federal Government issued an order preventing that area closed, or had you just said you would make this recommendation to the Federal Government? MR.

EVANS: We make our recommendation to them, and they put it through an Order-in- Council. MR GUTTORMSON: But the order had never been -- bad the order ever been made? MR EVANS: Well, I can only assume so. If you want me to check the point? MR GUTTORMSON: No, I just wondered. You said it had been rescinded. I was wonder ing whether you may have made-- suggested doing it but it had never got that far. MR EVANS: You're speaking about the Long Point-Reindeer area? That will effect ne.xt winters fishing? MR . GUTTORMSON: That's right. MR EVANS: The Order in-Council will be passed.

When it's passed, we of course are advised and then we print the regulations and send them to the Prairie Fisheries Federation (I believe) that's the federation of the companies who in turn pass them out to the fishermen who work with them. l\1R. GUTTORMSON: Well, the point -- you missed the point that I was getting at. Page 1028 July 16th, 1959.

(Mr. Guttormson, cont'd. ) .... Was the. order ever made by the Federal Government, or was it just -- did you issue the instructions to the fishermen that this recommendation was going to be made by the Provincial Government to the Federal Government? (Mr. Evans: that's it) But the order had never been made then? MR. EVANS: I can't say whether up to this moment it has been made but it will be made in time for the winter fishing season this year. MR. PETER WAGNER (Fisher): Mr. Chairman, we'll leave the fish spawning to the Honourable members which come first. Let them debate it at their own conservative time.

But - - i.n the early session of June, I asked the Honourable Minister the question, how the Treaty Indians were a.f:iected in fishing on the Fisher River and Pequis Reserves? Once the lake was closed, they didn't have no way of getting employment. And the Honourable Minister answered me in this manner, that ther e was some employm ent through the road-building, and then it was further under study whether any com pensation will be given to these people. What has been accomplished since that time? MR.

EVANS: The main project and perhaps the only one is the extension of the road, widening and extension, of the road to Matheson Island. There are at present, a hundred men employed on that. As far as I know, all who applied for work, all fishermen who were deprived of their fishing, who applied for work on that project have been given work. MR. GUTTORMSON: Mr. Chairman, what bodies of water has the Provincial Government got com plete jurisdiction over? That is to sa y, over the regulations. I mean; you said just a few moments ago, that Lake Manitoba and Lake Winnipeg was federal jurisdiction.

Now what bodies come under com plete provincial jurisdiction? MR. EVANS: As far as I know, all -- I believe I'm correct in saying that all fisheries regulations are published by Federal Order-in-Council. MR. GUTTORMSON: In other words, the Provincial Government makes the recommenda tion to the Federal Government and they pass them by Order-in-Council in Ottawa, is that correct? MR. EVANS: That is my understanding. Now if there is some class of lake of whicn I am not aware that we have sole jurisdiction of, I'll be glad to check it and find out. But my impression is that it's all by Federal Order-in-Council. MR.

WAGNER: Mr. Chairman, would it be possible for the Minister to say whether work is still available if any fishermen would want to come and work there? MR, EVANS: I'm so sorry, I missed that question. MR, WAGNER: Would it be possible for you to say whether there is still work available on that road if any fishermen wanted to com e to work ? Due to the reason -- I'm asking that question because as far as the fishermen in Fisher River Reserve and Pequis Reserve, they seem to be out of work and without any compensation or assistance of living.

I don't know whether they were informed that they could get employment -- did you have any correspondence betw.een yourself and the Indian Council or the Indian Agent? MR, EVANS: No, we work in connection with the Department of Indian Affairs in this connection. Their officials right here in Winnipeg and our officials work with them, so I think the correspondence would not be between the Band and our department, but our dealings would be between the department and the Federal Department of Indian Affairs.

MR, WAGNER: Would it be possible for you to recall whether the department had any correspondence to this effect? MR. EVANS: When you say correspondence, do you mean you would include discussions, personal discussions on the telephone and so on? Oh, yes, we have been in touch with them. Now whether in connection with this particular Reserve, I'm not able to say. If you would care to have me find out, I'd be glad to. · · MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Chairman, I would like to take this·o pportunity to say just a few words.

I don't feel that I should take up the time of this House to gci into any lengthy discussion because there only a very few number of fishermen living in the sovereign constituency which I represent. However, there were some matters which created a great deal of interest 'in my mind after listening· to the statement, rather com prehensive statement, made by the Minister of Resources. Comp rehensive as the statement was, Mr. Ch:mirman, I certainly.could not help but feel that there were some omissions� For example, the Minister did not re:l.ily go July 16th, 1959. Page 10 29.

(Mr. Schreyer, cont 'd. ) .... into any sufficiently lengthy explanation of what his department and what his government -- which is inclined I take it to give leadership -- what his department is going to do or try and do with regard to giving leadership to the fishermen to the view of helping them set up fish co-operative processing plants or the like because it would seem that here is one phase of this problem, among other problems, in which the government could do something quite tangible.

I realize that the problem that faces fishermen on the lakes is some thing that has built up over the years, but it's not only in the matter of fishing but in fish mar keting that there is a considerable problem. I think the Minister is aware that some -- just two year ago, there was a situation existing in this province, where fish being sold in the lakes, around four cents a pound was being marketed in the city at 67 cents a pound.

Now we of course should be fair and admit that there is necessity for price spread between producer and consumer, but certainly it's approaching the poin of being ridiculous when it's to that large a degree of spread. I don't know whether marketing comes well within the purview of the depart ment, but I dare say that the Minister could lend a hand to doing something about this. And the other matter which I wish to raise was with regard to the overall program which the Minister brought before us tonight.

I realize again that fishing on, especially in Lake Winnipeg, is of such a nature that the concerns have to be well equipped and as a consequence the large companies seem to be much more able to do an efficient job. But, I think we must also realize that there are a considerable number of independent fishermen or com paratively small concerns, and I could be very well wrong on this, but it seemed to me that the program the Minister enunciated seemed to be slanted -- I say "seemed to be slanted" -- towards help ing out those who probably didn't need quite as much help as the independent fishermen.

Which brings me to another matter and that is this: Shortly after the session opened in June, the Minister made a statement with regard to the employment project being opened up in the Mathe son Island area, during which time I asked whether or not there was any possibility of further projects. At that time the Minister said he would be prepared to make a statement with regard to any further projects some time during the course of this session. I dare say that there are a good many fishermen, Indian or Metis, living on the east side of.L ake Winnipeg who are not in a. very desirable position at the moment.

And it would seem rather unfair because the south end of the lake is closed down to commercial fishing and understably so, I think, understandably so. But they are in a position this year where they are just up against it. The fish companies are employing men from various parts of the province, I presume, but especially from areas around Gimli., Ri.verton and places around there. Well, that's all right. But in many cases this is being done at the -- to the detriment of those people of Indian or Metis or other origin living in the immediate vicinity on these shores of the lake.

Now I know that this debate has carried on for a considerable length of time but I would appreciate some comments from the Minister on these points. MR. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, in the course of my remarks I did say that our first atten tion was turned to the biological aspects of it. ·W e were trying to take steps particularly with regard to Lake Winnipeg as a first step because I considered the conditions there to be worse than elsewhere; that marketing must receive attention, and I indicated some ways in which I thought investigation should be made in connection with merchandising and other matters of that kind.

Then the honourable member raises the possibility of co-operatives. Those who know a good deal more about co-operatives than I do have told me that tqere requires to be a certain grouping of the individuals who are to form a co-operative. They must first of all be united in associations of some kind, it might be a parish or it might be a particular district where they do naturally associate and in other ways co-operate with each other to begin with. Then when that condition is granted it is possible for those concerned to consider co-operatives.

The only thing I can say at this stage is that I believe the encouragement of the fishermen's federation to encourage them to form .their own locals will help to provide in some degree at least, that first the .grouping of the people together having them in association with each other and in cohesive groups in which co-operatives could grow. I think the wh ole question of marketing, of price spreads as was raised by perhaps the Honourable Member from In kster, a nd other things do require to be looked into. We have not done it so far; we plan to. I think it is an important aspect and must indeed be studied.

Then with regard to -- I am not quite sure that I un derstood the honourable member's Page 1030 July 16th, 1959.

(Mr. Evans , cont'd. ) ...• remarks about the measures that we have taken being slanted to wards certain interests in the fishing industry and not toward the individual fisherman. The only thing I can say in that connection is this , that our object has been to restore and replenish the fish in the lake which is of course of equal advantage to the individual fisherman as in con trast with either the organized com panies or the employed fisherman.

The biological work is in the interest of the lake itself, restoring the right kinds and sizes of1fish in the lake; and certainly there is no intention to slant it either toward the individual fisherman or towards those who work for com panies , but to restore the fish themselves. With regard to further employment projects, the honourable member has indicated what's a real difficulty, and that is to find works that needs to be performed on the east side of the lake and thus affo rd employment opportunities.

We do hope that Indians or others living on the east side of the lake may be able to come across in the near future and obtain work on the roads to resources program, and I am in close touch with my honourable colleague, the Minister of Labour with regard to fis hing opportunities for them.

As a matter of fact his officials who handle the winter works program have been working in securing employment for the fishermen who are now employed in the Matheson Island road� By no means have we advanced as far as we hope to -- we are making progress in that direction -- I believe that these things must be follow ed further. MR. CAMPBELL: Mr.

Chairma n, like the Honourable Member for Logan, I've been a long time trying to get into this debate, but sigging in one of these front row seats, I am handi capped a little bit as to watching the people who are wanting to rise and I've been interested in the debate that's proceeded. I have found through the years in this House that the most lengthy discussions usu ally take place on education, agriculture and fisheries.

For some reason those subjects are ones that nearly everyone in the House seems to consider hims elf an expert on or if not an expert at least of great interest, and year after year this fisheries discussi on has con tinued to engage a lot of the attention of the honoura ble members. I guess I have to plead guilty to having taken part on practically every occasion because my constituency is at the south end of Lake Manitoba; a considerable number of people make all or a l

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	26-1-27a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	26th 1st hansardpdf 27a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	40fc1265de2370c94e0251874482c88fcebd022e

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