PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY Voluma1 Number 58 4th. Session 34th. General Assembly VERBATIM REPORT THURSDAY, MAY 7, 1970 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE GEORGE W. CLARKE

May 7th, 1970 Tape 795 JM - 1 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. . RON. J.R. SMALLWOOD (PREMIER): I welcome cordially to the House today some sixty students of grade nine from Bishop Spencer College with two of their teachers, Mrs. Halleran and Miss Noseworthy, and I want to say to them that all members of the House on both sides are very happy and very glad to see them come here today as we are every day to welcome groups of students. Yesturday we had students here from Bishop Field an old school of my own where I attended for five years. I cannot claim that I ever went to Bishop Spencer.

I do not think they would have allowed me in there then or now but then I do not think they would have allowed the Leader of the Opposition in there either or any other member of this House because Bishop Spencer has always been noted for an outstanding girls college in Newfoundland and it has won for itself a great name in education .and it has done something else.

In addition to building up a great reputation as a place l of education, it has also built for itself a great reputation as a place where young ladies are brought up ana trained to be exactly that, to be young ladies and certainly that wonderful college has produced some pretty wonderful women in the .history of our Province.

The first principal I remember was Miss Cherington but, of course, that is quite a while ago and I do not know who is the principal today but anyway I do know this that when I was at Bishop Field College I did a very naughty thing and the only excuse I have for it is that I was not the only boy at Bishop Field College who did this naughty thing. We all did it, just about every boy at Bishop Field College.

We would all sneak up after school when school closed at around 4:00 o'clock we used to sneak up around Bishop Spencer just in the hope of seeing some girls and getting to know them and talk to them but I know that sort of thing is not done today and not only that but if it is done today I know·that the girls would turn their backs on any boys from Bishop Field. They would not encourage them at all. Anyhow I do not think the boys today, these days, like going up around girls schools. But in my time I can tell you, Mr. Speaker, they did.

They did that and I remember one girl, I must not tell the House too much about it, but there was one girl at Bishop Spencer and her 3598

May 7th, 1970 Tape 795 JM - 2 MR. SMALLWOOD: first name was Kitty and I thought,and I believe I was right, she was the most beautiful girl. She was the most beautiful girl, Mr. Speaker, that ever was or maybe ever will be. She was absolutely out of this world, • beautiful, beautiful girl at Bishop Spencer and I was a boy at Bishop Field and I would sneak up and I would tr~ to sneak away from my chums because I was a little jealous.

I was afraid one of my chums maybe someone a little better looking than I was, well, they would not be much better looking but a little bit better looking, might cut me out and so I would sneak away go of in another direction turn around two or three corners and get up near Bishop Spencer that way just in the hope of seeing my girl and she was not really my girl. I just would have liked for her to be my girl but I never had enough nerve to talk to her, never spoke to her, I just worshipped her from a distance, just so long as I could see her. Then, Sir, I found out where she lived.

I followed her from a little distance and I discovered where she lived. She lived on Gower Street and I discovered the actual house. Heavens above, how often did 1 walk past that house just in. the hope of catching a glimpse of her. I am going to tell you that Bishop Spencer has had that effect on me all through my life. I have never been the same man ever since. So Bishop Spencer is a very famous college for &irls and I, well, yes I have to make an open confession and I am going to say this much that I am a better man today because of Bishop Spencer College.

Of course, I am also a better man because of Bishop Field College and a few other schools that I attended. We are a~l delighted to have them here from Bishop Spencer College today and if the Leader of the Opposition dares to stand up here and say that these are not the prettiest girls and the most intelligent and the finest looking girls that have been here this year I will be surprised if he dares to contra­ diet me. I know he is going to admit that these are outstandingly fine young Newfoundland women and we are all so glad indeed that they came to visit us here this afternoon.

If they are expecting a row, if they are expecting any cross words between the two sides of the House they are going to be disappointed because they must not believe that. Everything is sweetness and light here, we love each other 3599

Hay 7th, 1970 Tape 795 JM- 3 MR. SMALLWOOD: on both sides of the House, there is never a cross word spoken and if they h•ve come here in the hope of seeing like a wrestling mptch or a boxing match, or a hot hockey match they are going to be disappointed. W~ are here as young gentlemen and we behave as young gentlemen from the minute the House opens until it clpses at 11:00 o'clock in the night. Now let the Leader of the Opposition dare contradict me, let him dare do it. MR. MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to join.with the bon. Premier in welcoming these young ladies from Bishop Spencer with their teachers, Mrs.

Halleran and Miss Noseworthy, and I am sure that we are all very happy to see them. I can­ not quote any instances of frustrated love or anything in connection with Bishop Spencer but I can go back a great many years, the Premier mentioned Miss Cherington, I think she must have been one of the outstanding education­ alists at that time. Her name was very prominent in connection with Bishop Spencer and in my youthful days I used to go down and watch Bishop Spencer play hockey down in the old prince's ring and really admire the ladies with their big blowing bloomers which they do not wear at these times. Mr.

Speaker, I do wish to join with the Premier on behalf of my colleagues here and to welcome these young ladies. There are sixty of them from grade nine and I am sure that they will enjoy their visit here. And as the Premier bas said there will be no cross words or anything this afternoon, do not bank too much on that. We are not permitted to call the Premier a liar in this Rouse but he might be straying .from the truth perhaps in that one respect.

So let events take their course and see what happens and I think you are going to have a distinguished ex-pupil of your school follow me as far as I can ascertain and the Leader of the Reform group, I do not know if he might be able to tell you a few of his experiences when he had the pleasure of associating with the young girls down in kindergarten in grade -one. So, Mr. Speaker, I do join with the Premier in welcoming these young ladies to the House today. MR. CROSBIE: Mr.

Speaker, as the only Spencerian here of course, old Spencerian here, it is an added pleasure to welcome the girls from grade nine at Bishop Spencer and Mrs. Halleran and Miss Nosewort~y. Bishop Spencer is a very distinguished school and has a wonderful record and as I say I graduated from 3609

May 7th, 1970 Tape 795 JM - 4 MR. CROSBIE: Bishop Spencer in 1939, graduated from grade one over to grade two at Bishop Field. I think I was eight years old then and if I had been a bit older then I would have refused to have left Bishop Spencer because I remember when I got around fourteen I tried to get back to Bishop Spencer from Bishop Field, Mr. Speake~. But those were the days and I think there is a certain member of the House, Mr.

Speaker, occasionally calls me bully boy and 1 think he must know my record in kindergarten at Bishop Spenc~r because my wife who was in kindergarten also with me says that 1 was a real bully boy in those days at Bishop Spencer and I had a gang organized that used to kidnap the girls and tie them up and leave them in the cloakroom. So what I have been called lately was probably true thirty years ago. Of course, I think the reason why a certain member of the House is calling me a sook is because I went to this girls school for two years, that maybe the reason.

The hon. the Premier said that the young ladies are unlikely to hear any harsh words in this House. 1 would say that is very true, very,very true. It reminds me of the great play, Mr. Speaker, "Hair" which is now playing all over the world and there is a song in that, we have the record at the house and I listen to it every evening in between sessions here · to put me in the right mood to come back, and there is a song there that goes' ;"Love, Sweetness, Happiness" and that is what you are bound to see in this House about one per-cent of the time, the rest of the time is usually something a bit different.

Anyway, Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the old Spencerian& in the House, this covers myself .and other members of the Liberal Reform group, we are delighted to have these young ladies here and we hope that today we will be debating something of more significance than the Dog Act or some matter like that. We hope to get our teeth into something that is really meaningful in the life of this Province, perhaps the Ombudsman. W~ have our teeth half into the Ombuds- man now and if it comes up later 1 think we will have an interesting debate on the Ombudsman in the House this afternoon.

So we are very pleased to welcome the young ladies. MR. NOLAN: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I could be permitted for just a moment to join with the bon. Premier, the hon. Leader of the Opposition and the chief 3601

Hay 7th, 1970 Tape 795 JH- 5 MR. NOLAN: of the old Spencerians to welcome the students here. A number of them visited with me in my office just a little while ago and for th~ information of the House I should inform them that they are expected to write an essay, I believe, having visited the House and in spite o( the words of the Premier they are indeed looking fo~ard to a rather hectic session and not all of the sweetness and light that the other members referred to. While I did not go to Bishop Spencer 1 too used to sneak around a few corners. What we did in fact was along with the bon. member for St.

John's West before we became politically involved we used to split the occasional coke, chip in. Actually 1 think that 1 probably had a closer association with his brother, Mr.

Andrew Crosbie, at that time and 1 would not be at all surprised but it was in the Blue Pot on Rawlins Cross where you could sit in a booth in the afternoon or try to at least if you were not evicted and invest a magnificent sum of six cents and you could stay there from about 4;00 o'clock to 6;00 o'clock to 6;30 o'clock. 1 do not think the proprietor of that particular store or hang out for us, if you like, retired to the country on the profits that he derrived. I know that on more than one occasion the bon. member for St.

John's West and myself sat in and the girls from Spencer as 1 recall often times would treat us to a coke and that was good for two and a half hours which was quite an investment to have. Both the bon. member for St. John's West and myself regaled them with stories that were often times untrue about our great exploits for the two hours in the afternoon. I would not be surprised - MR. SMALLWOOD: The bon. gentleman should not be boasting because he had enough money to buy a coke. He might have been among the wealthy class but in my time he did not have any money to buy a coke.

He might buy an all day sucker for two cents or maybe a spruce beer for one cent. MR.- NOLAN: No, I am trying to indicate, Mr. Speaker, that along with having a very clever, very pretty group at Bishop Spencer then and now you also had a group often times who were willing to make some small sacrifice for the sake of company for certain gentlemen in those days and they, in fact, on more than one occasion would spring for the necessary six cents and keep us subsidized, if 3602

May 7th, 1970 Tape 795 JM- 6 MR. NOLAN: you like, for the afternoon. Often times it was necessary for us to change iirls from time to time because they could not afford u,. MR. SMALLWOOD: They would run out of money. HR. NOLAN: Yes, they would run out of money but I think that the hon. member for St. Joqn's West may have done some of his courting in those days down at the Blue Pot and we had a lot of fun together and I am sure he can recall some of the days and the wonderful people we knew i~ that particular time. MR. EARLE: Mr.

Speaker, I can never resist the temptation to welcome students from Bishop Field or Bishop Spencer College because I was always so intimately associated with both of these schools in the past. The fact that the Premier only qualified for one girl friend from Spencer I think is quite a reflation on him because I had at least eight girlfriends at Spencer and they were all the best looking girls in town now, then and ever more shall be. So I had eight girlfriends at least from Bishop Spencer but I rather let them all down by marrying one from Prince of Wales afterwards.

It was a great shock from which I do not think Spencer ever recovered but quite apart from that I was also a member of the Board of Directors· of Bishop Spencer and Bishop Field combined for about eight years and I was the first chairman of the joint Board of Education of the colleges and the Anglican Schools in St. John's. Now I have a public confession to make here today which I think is long past due. The fact that Spencer at that time was brought from a senior school down to, I think it was, grade seven or eight and Field was the same always worried my conscience and has worried me every since.

What has developed since those days in the great Bishops College of which we were all very proud has still not offset the great uneasiness I had at the time in seeing Spencer and Field brought down to junior schools. The sessions which I had in those days with the ladies at Spencer Club were something to remember. Nothing that has happened in this House in all the hectic rows that we had here ever was anything on a par with the rows that we had with the ladies at Spencer Club at that time and I remember that the feelings were very, very strong indeed.

But looking around today and seeing the fine class of girls and the i fine girls that are still coming out of Spencer and as they develop and go on into Bishop College and 3603

May 7th, 1970 Tape 795 .JM - 7 MR. EARLE: seeing the fine type of boys that are coming out of Bishop Field and are still getting their further education in Bishop College, I cannot really thin~ that any mistake was made.

All the hard feelings and difficulties that we faced at that time I think were well worth while ~ecause in the final analysis the whole syste~ of education in the city of St • .John's has greatly improved because of the steps that were taken at that time and. althgugh 1 as chairman had to bear the bunt of it to the point that many members of the community were aot · speaking to me their feelings were running so high 1 am glad that it happened and 1 certainly hope that Spencer will always keep up the high level it then had and still has today.

I am delighted to find after all these years that the standards at Spencer are still as high as they ever were. They are very welcome here indeed. MR. CALLAHAN: Mr. Speaker, on yesterday I indicated and in reply to a question we tabled two copies of the water resources study of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador conducted in behalf of the Province or at least paid for by the Atlantic Development Board and carried out by the Shawinig~n,: Engineering Company and James F. McLaren, they indicated yesturday one copy, Mr.

Speaker, or one set of eleven volumes was tabled for the House and 1 would hope the other set perhaps will- be put in the Legislative Library. 3604

JW May 7, 1970 Tape 11796 Page 1 ANSWF.RS TO OUESTIONS: HON. F. \-1. Rm..rE 011nister of Education): Mr. Sp:aker~ I have the answer to Question No. (235) on the Order Paper of April 6, asked by the hon. member for St. John's Ea~t Extern. The bon. memher is not in his s~at here now, perhaps his colleagues would convey the information to him. The question is in several parts. Did Memorial University authorities present a request for capita~ expenditure for temporary buildings prior to the submission of the '69 - '70 Estimates. The answer is "yes." By the way Mr.

Speaker, I should have apologized to the hon. gentleman for the delay in answering this question. This one was asked on April 6, and the question involves several other bodies besides the Department of Education. The Department of Public Works and the University, and strictly speaking we simply could have rejected the question I suppose, and said, it should be directed elsewhere, but since the information - there is no reason why the information should not be made public anyway, and we decided to go to work on it. But it was only yesterday actually, yesterday morning that I got the information back.

The answer to part one is "yes." Question(2) says if the answer to (1) is "yes," what was the amount of their requests. And the answer is $1 million. Question

(3) What were the changed circumstances necessitating an increase of $390.000, between the time the Estimates were tabled, and the 16 June 1969 when this official amount was authorized by special warrant. And this is the answer that has been given me and I pass it on. The imperative need of the University for additional facilities before the beginning of the next academic year. That is to provide offices and laboratories to enable the faculty of medicine to enroll twenty students into the first year program.

To provide offices for some thirty additional appointments which had to be made to meet the increased enrollment, and to provide additional small lecture rooms necessary to cope with the increase in numbers. Question (4) says; What construction was undertaken under Vote 06-22-09-05? And in this question I include part of the answer to Ouestion (5). The answer is; miscellaneous '-1ork and I notice the fi11:ure eip,h t 3605

Hay 7, 1970 TapE> /1796 Page 2 is put after that word "work" so I presume it is eight miscellaneous jobs of work, totalling $21,495. And a Science buildiRg alterations totalling $33,399. I will repeat those figures. The miscellaneous works were $21~495 - the Science Building alterations were $33,399, and that work Jl~ was done by Newfoundland Engineering Construction Company. And the next was College Number four; $54,000 , and that work was done by Cummings, Dove and Whitten. I think they are an architectural firm.

They have assumed that that work would be desi~n work and preparatory work, blueprint work and so on. A master plan $40,205, and tunnels, $14,781, and Health and Life Science, $14,994. These three jobs were done and again I presume this was planning by Llewelyn Davies Weeks and Forrester, I think the name pronounces. I do not know the firm at all. And there is a note here that says that the above works were carried from the previous years. 1 must confess that does not mean too much to me. I presume they were going to do it the previous year and did not do it.

And question (5) says, Describe all contracts entered into and chargeable to this subhead giving in each case all the competitive bids, indicating the firm to whome the contract was awarded, and the total payments made to each contractor in 1969-70. And the answer is; temporary buildings to J.J. Hussey Li~ited­ $210,500. To Newfoundland Engineering Company, $214,750. To Lundrigans Limited, $238,331. Now there is a further note Mr. Speaker, that says "the successful tenderer was to negotiate with sub-contractors for plumbin~ ventilation and electrical services. And the contract was awarded to J.J. Hussey Limited.

And $346,138 has been oaid to date. Hr. Speaker, that is the answer to that ~ueetion, and as far as I know, and I have been checking with my colleague here on my ri~ht, who has been keening a record of these for me. He has a record there, and as far as I can ascertain, this completes all the questions that have been asked by the Denartment of Education. I~ there is some questions omitted - again I apolo~dze for the delay in this one. The reason for the delay was that the departmental officials had to go elsewhere to a number of quarters in order to get all the information together. 3CGG

JW May 7' 1970 Tape f/796 Page 3 MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker, in answer to question (415) asked by the hon. member for St. John's West, on the Order Paper of·April 14. In answer to Question (415). The answer to the _first part of the question. thirty- nine homes will be erected in various communities throughout the Province, according to the needs of the Department of Welfare and the Department of Health. All the homes have not yet been transferred to the sites in question. Twenty-eight are not yet erected. The answer to the second part of the question.

Twenty pre-fabricated homes are to be located in Gander; four have been erected in Gander for this purpose. The answer to the third part of the question; Atlantic Design Homes are responsible for transporting the various homes from Stephenville to various sites. They are not responsible for erecting the same on the site. Compensation is paid for such transportation is in accordance with transportation fee scale of the company. The answer to the fourth part of the question Government has not yet expended funds on the purchase of the sites. New- foundland and Labrador HousinR Corporation have so far spent $17,350.

The answer to the fifth part of the question; Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation entered into an agreement with Lundrigan's Limited, of which Atlantic Design Homes is a division on September 5, 1969. The answer to question (424) asked by the bon. member for St. John's West MR. CROSBIE: The minister neglected to answer the last question. There are twenty-three public housing units planned for Gander, of which there are four already there. Is that what the minister said? MR. DAWF.: That is right. To continue with answer to question (424) asked by the bon. member for St. John's West.

The answer to the first part of the question is yes; The answer to the second part of the question; manufactureres of such homes were in contact with Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation. And the name of these manufacturere were, Atlantic Design Homes, New Lab Pre Engineering Structures Limited. Other firms in Newfoundland with plant capabilities were also in contact with the Corporation, but they did not advertise as such the fact of reduction of homes within the

definitions set out in the firs ·t question. The Corooration also received the normal brochures of a general nature from 3607

JW May 7, 1970 Tape 11796 Page 4 other firms in Canada, but not any proposal as such to sell homes to Newfoundland and Labrador Housing was received. In answer to the third part of the question; Newfoundland and Labrador Housin~ Corporation did not call for proposals or invite prices before agreeing to purchase fifty- nine homes from Atlantic Design Homes. It did not so because Atlantic Design Homes were the only firm at that time building pre-fab homes of this type, and the prices are standard.

The answer to the fourth part .of the question; Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation did not request bids for the transportation of pre-fabricated homes from Stephen- ville to the sites. The reason no bids have been called for transportation is that it is considered necessary to use the transportation facilities of the manufacturer, so as to hold the manufacturer responsible for the safe delivery of the unit to the various sites. The rates for transportation are in accordance with the standard fee scale of the company.

Quotations for foundations to be built by persons other than the manufacturer are being sought, although four units because of the time factor, Atlantic Design Homes were instructed to undertake the erection. And probably for the benefit of the House, to give you some idea of this rate scale, Atlantic Design Homes charge $100 to deliver homes within the Stephenville area. $190 for the Corner Brook area. Clarenville $690. And for the St. John's area, $875. In answer to Question No. (444) asked.by the hon. member for St. John's West on the Order Paper of April 15. In answer to the first part of the question.

One contract was awarded without calling of public·tenders. This contract for paving in the Federal-Provincial land assembly at nunville was awarded to Nova Construction Company. This company was one of two companies working in the area with paving equipment. Quotations were invited from both companies and Nova construction's bid was the lowest. In answer to the second part of the question; all contracts in respect of which public tenders were called were awarded to the lowest bidder.

In answer to the third part of the question: the persons present at the various tender openin~s were as follows: Landscaping, Housin~ units to Burin Peninsula. Mr. A. Makinson, Mt. R. S. Sheppard, }!r. C. Harris, all officials of Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation. Subsidized 3608

May 7, 1970 Tape #796 Page 5 Rental Units in Grand Falls present at the opening of tenders. Mr. F. Grant, Mr. T. Cummings, Mr. J. Seymour, officials.of Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation, Mr. R. G. Cooper, Centr~l Mortgage and JW Housing Corporation, and Mr. D. Hotden, Newfoundland and Labrador Construction · Association. Stoves, refrigerators, public housing from Marystown, present at the opening was Mr. Cummings, Mr. Hilliard, Mr. Lawrence and Mr. Mercer, all officials of Newfoundland and Labrad~r Housing Corporation.

Paving of public housing projects of Marystown, present at the opening of the tenders, Mr. Cummings, }fr. Makinson, all officials of the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation. Tree planting in Marystown Public Housing - present at the opening Mr. Grant, Mr. Cummings of Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation. And Mr. Cooper, Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation. The Land Assembly Elizabeth Street area, Corner Brook. Present at the opening of tenders, Mr. Cummings, Mr. Lawrence, Mr. Evans, officials of the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation, Mr.

R. ~arsons, Newfoundland Design Associates Limited, the consulting engineers, and Mr. K. Burden, City Engineer for the city of Corner Brook. As a matter of policy it is not customary to have 3609

May 7th. 1970 Tape 797 PK - 1 MR. ERIC DAWE: as a matter of policy it is not customery to have representives of tendering firms present at teadering.openings. Bbt generally;in Newfoundland and Labrador7 Construction~~ Associations are invited to be present. In answering the foregoing questions the assumption was made that the ques~ion referred to substantial construction or allied work and no attempt has been made to list numerous small contracts from minor maintenance or a painting or cleaning of vacated units dnd so on.

This refers to the major contracts lef·; by the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation. And answer to Question No. 44S, asked by the hon. the member for St. John's West on~Wednesday's Order Paper of April 15th. The answer to

(1) Public tenders were not called for the following; demolision of concrete block buildings Ebsary Estate. The contract in the amount of $4,340 was awarded to Urban Contracting Li~ited, after bids had been invited from five firms. Three firms submitted bids, and Urban Contracting Limited bid was the lowest. The·~reason the contract was awarded without public tender calls was that it was urgently necessary to carry out the demolision as quickly as possible, and it was considered impractical to go through the time consuming process of public tender calls.

Further to the answer to that question the erection of four prefabricated homes for the needs of Government departments, because of the urgent need Atlantic Design Homes, a division of Lundrigan's Limited was instructed to proceed with erection of four prefab units, two at Harbour Breton, one at Aguthuna, and one at Fogo. In the case of the two units at Harbour Breton the firm was instructed to place these on temporary foundations and this was done. Sids are now being sought for the installation of basesments and p~rmanent erections of these two units.

In the case of Aguthuna the cost of erection was $11,885 including basement, provision for water and sewerage services and at Fogo the price for ~ erection with similar services $8, 625. The answe~ the second part ··of the question; contracts were awarded to the lowest tenders. The answer to the third part of the question: ln connection with such contracts awarded durin~ fhe 3610

May 7th. 1970 Tape 797 PK - 2 MR. DAWE: financial year commencing April 1st. 1969 when the work was to::be paid for entirely by the Governm~nt of Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation and public tenders were called vho was present at the opening) The answer to the third part of the question for the paving contract at Mary's Town present at the opening of tenders, Mr. Cummings, Mr. Evans, and Mr. McKinnon officials of the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation. For the dwelling House at Burin, Mr. Lawrence, Mr. McKinnon and Mr.

Harris officials of Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation, Newfoundland and Labrador Construction Associations were invited but did not attend. The dwelling house Channel Port aux Basques present at the opening of the tenders, Mr. Lawrence, Mr. McKinnon, Mr. Harris, all officials of Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation. Newfoundland and Labrador Construction Associations were invited, they did not attend. Answer to ~uestion No. 482 - MR.

CROSBIE: In answering part one of the Question, he did not give the cost of erecti~g the houses at Harbour Breton~ He said Aguthuna was $11,885, and Fogo was $8,625. And would the bon, minister say that is a part from ' the cost of the home itself presumably. And have you got the figure for Harbour Breton! HR.· Dawe; In reply to that question, I have not got the figures for Harbour Breton available just now, but I can get them for the bon. member, but I do not have them here just now. But that is to the actual purchase of the House. Answer to Question No. 482, April 3rd. asked by the bon. member for St.

John's West, the answer to the first part of the question;teriders were called by Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation for the servicing of land in the Elizabeth Street area of Corner Brook. The names of the firms tendering and the bids received were as follows; Lincoln Construction $349,573.51 Newfoundland Engineering and Construction Limited $374,763.00; }!cNamara Construction of Newfoundland Limited $375,326.80; Uindrigan's Limited of Corner Brook $292,323.30; J. Goodyear and Sons Li~ited $418,912.30.

It should also be noted that the cit1 of Corner Brook has undertaken certain other works including external services and road improvements were necessary to this project. 36::.1

May 7th. 1970 Tape 797 MR. DAWE: The answer to the second part of the The answer to the third part of the question;the PK- 3 quesiton;tenders were called. co~t,tbe work in the service land development is to be met by Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation. The arrangements for financing are that corporation is borrowing from ~ntra~ ~mrtgage and Housing Corporation under

section 35(

c) of the National Housing Act. Under these arrangements loans are made up to ninety percent of the cost of the acquisition and.services of land. With respect to the external services being installed by the city of Corner Brook, fifty percent of the cost~are being met by the Government of Canada. Now Mr. Speaker I table the answer to question No. 422 asked by the bon. member for St. John's West, Tuesday, April 14th. I will table the Question No. 422. ORDERS OF THE DAY BON. J. R. SMALLWOOD: (PREMIER) ~r.

Speaker, bef9re you call the Orders of the Day, I think perhaps the House would be interested to hear that as of now, as of this moment the number of Questions put on the Order Paper in this session 504, the number answered to this moment is 328. The number still not answered is 176. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: Second reading of a Bill, "An Act To Amend The Youth Administratic Act, 1968". MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I move that we proceed to another order namely order one"COIIDilittee of Ways and Means". Seconded by the bon. member for Bonavista North. MR. S~~LWOOD: Mr.

Speaker, the motion quite obviously is out of order. The Government has the right, and only the right to call Government business. MR. CROSBIE: To a point of order, this matter has been discussed earlier in this session, I refer~~he Standing Order 33, "when a question is under debate ,;.J no question is received unless to amend it;to postpone it to~day certain;for the previous question;for reading the orders of the day; ;for proceeding to another order~ I have moved that we proceed to another order, and understandinF order 33 is quite in order, ~lr. Speaker.

ItA!s been founded to be in order by your good-self•.earlier in this session. I, therefore, submit that this. motion is quite in order. 3 612

May 7th. 1970 Tape PK- 4 MR. SNALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, there \.ras a motion before Your Honour, before the bon. gentleman moved the motion, the motion wa~ from the President of the Council and Leader of the House. He made a motion,_ Mr. Speaker, to call a certain order, and he did it as Leader of the House, ·and spokesman for the Go~ernment it is a Government order and he called~ and no other motion is in order. MR. CROSBIE: Mr.

Speaker, the bon. the Premier apparently will never learn We are quite well aware of the fact that there is another motion that the Leader of the House has moved that we proceed to order 22. Under the rules tit then become •••• MR. SPEAKER: I might say, before the bon. gentleman proceeds any further and bases his argument on this; there is not a motion before the House. The House Leader calls, he does not move we proceed to order such and such. He calls the order. We do not take any vote._He-just has the right to call the order in which they come, and this is what he has done. Will the bon. member please proceed.

MR CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker there is now before the House order 22, second reading of a Bill to Amend the Newfoundland Teachers Association Act, and I am moving that we proceed instead to order 1, Committee of Ways and Means, which I submit is quite in order and this should be called first. . MR. SPEAKER: Those in favour of moving to Order"l, please say, "aye" contrary "nay". I declare the motion lost. We will go to number 21, A Bill, "An Act To Amend The Youth Administration Act, 1968", be now read a second time. MR. CROSBIE: We want that vote on division. MR. SMALLWOOD: It is too late. MR.

CROSBIE: Well then we will make another one in a few minutes time, and it will not be too late then. MR. SPEAKER: Will we continue. HON. G. A. FRECKER: (MINISTER OF PROVINCIAL AFFAIRS) Item 21, Mr. Speaker, Bill No. 31 entitled,"An Act To Amend The Youth Administration Act", all bon. members will recall an extremely and interesting and spontaneous debate which took place on the day that our former bon. colleague, the former Minister 3G:!.3

HR. FRECKER: of Fisheries was about to take up his new duties. Practically every member spoke on that occasion, although the bon. Minister of Education had explained that it was a very simple matter that he was bringing before the House namely changing the title of the Department of Education Act,to the Department of Education and Youth, and wherever it was necessary incorporating in that new act, the word "Minister of Education and Youth", "Deputy Minister of Education and Youth", and "Associate Deputy Hinister of Education and Youth", etc.

But the simple amendment did create a tremendous interest in this House, and that was because the word, "youth" sparked many thoughts in many minds. And particularly on the opposite side of the House, and particularly perhaps by the bon. Leader of the Opposition, the fear was expressed then that by transferring the Department of Youth Administration from the Department of Provincial Affairs to the Department of Education that youth somehow or other would be short changed.

Now 1 have been both in the Department of Education and in the Department of Provincial Affairs, and I may say that I was one of those who was particularly anxious that this youth administration should be transferred to the Department of Education, for many reason but chiefly because I feel that in this day and age recreation is education and education is becoming more and more integrated with recreation. You cannot divorce the one from the other, Mr. Speaker, as was formerly done even the bon. Leader of the Opposition was a boy, and they had athletics in school.

Athletics was something that the boys did or the girls did after school hours, whether it was ground hockey or soccer ice hockey or~ football or what have you. Now in our day physical education and recreation have become an essential part of our ci+ilization and unless our youth are given not only the opportunity, but the thin~ we are going to be short changed and we are going to have more and more problems in our society.

And I think education which has been reorganized so drastically for the better I would say in the passed two or three years is now in a position to care not only for youth, I mean the children in school, provide it is given the necessary staff which is absolutely essential and the necessary funds which is also absolutely essential, that the Department of Education .is 3614

May 7th. 1970 Tape 797 PK - 6 MR. FRECKER: in a far better position, Mr. Speaker, to care for the program than is the Department of Provincial Affairs. I could say a lot on that, but just let me point · this out that traditionally the Department of Provincial Affairs in the public mind is more or 1ess viewed as the old 6Qlonial Secretary's office, now it is far more than that we administered some forty-four Acts in the Department of Provincial Affairs.

I would say we are responsible for administering them, but because of circumstances beyond our control and because of the tremendous J' expenditures that would be involved in doingAthe way I would like to do it, we carry the ball but we do not carry it-as fast or as far as we should like to. Now education is entering a ~ new era it is in the process of developing r'N a much broader bases~ interprptat~on of its responsibilities to youth than was formerly possible. And I feel sure, Hr.

Speaker, that the public of Newfoundland will not only sppport the bon. minister of Education in administering this Act, but the public will insist on its being administered and the public will be much more alive to the responsibilites of the Department of Education than it is to the responsibilities of the Department of Provincial Affairs. Now the 3G!5

mw May 7th •• 1970 Tape no 798 Page 1 The staff that we formerly had in the Department of"Provincial Affairs to administer this Act have been transferred or will be. transferred to the Department of Education and the philosophy that the hon. Leader of the Opposition sponsors and rightly sponsors,in my opinion,that there should be given every consideration for the needs of youth,post school as well as in school will, I am sure, be ca~ed for.

For instance, the Department of Education for years administered post-secondary educational activities to adult education and later still to the "4-H movement" which later was transferred to another department. The Department of Education, Mr.

Speaker, has a philosophy which by very nature, by very functions, will enable the Department of Education to discharge its responsibility better than the Department of Provincial Affairs would be able to discharge them and again let me say that this is in no way, in no way a reflection on the work of the division of Youth or of Physical Fitness and Recreation, as we have called it in the Department of Provincial Affairs. Mr. Graham Snow the Director has his Masters Degree in Physical Fitness and Recreation, and he will be with the bon.

Minister of Education and will carry that philosphy with him, but in additton to that, the Department of Education has the philosophy with theirs on the youth and the youth programs whilst they are students in school; so the combination, I feel sure, will be a happy marriage and I have much pleasure in seconding this Bill. MR. CROSBIE:· I move that we proceed to another order; namely, Order

(1) Committee of Ways and Means, the debate on the Budget Speech, seconded by the bon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. S~~LWOOD: Mr. Speaker, there is an order before the Hous~, a motion before the House which has not been disposed off. There is a motion that this Bill now be read a second time. That is the motion before the House. It has not been disposed off. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker •• 3G16

mw May 7th , 1970 Page 2 Tape no. 798 I do not think MR. SPEAKER (NOEL): Order please. ~ if'e can have tlte same point decided twice in the same day. Now we are, just a moment, we are involved now in a debate on the second reading of.this particular Bill and the bon. member moved a few minutes ago that we proceed to Order (1). The motion was defeated. I do not think the rules permit the motion to be renewed out from time to time through the whole of the present session or sitting of the House. So I rule the motion to be out of order at this time. MR. CROSBIE: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to speak to the Point of Order, if I might? MR. SMALLWOOD: Have you ruled, Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: (NOEL): I have ruled on it. MR. CROSBIE: Well I move, then, Mr. Speaker, that we proceed to another order of business, namely Item (1), Commitee of Ways and Means, seconded by the hnn. Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPEAKER (NOEL) : The motion is out of order. MR. CROSBIE: I would like the opportunity, Mr. Speaker, to address -rself to a Point of Order. If one bon. member of this House moves a Point of Order, surely, another member is entitled to address himself to it. MR.

SPEAKER (NOEL): If the bon. gentleman wishes to appeal the ruling, that is up to himself, but the ruling I have made is that the House just voted on the very motion that the bon. member is putting, and I do not see how we can have two votes on the same motion one right after the other within the space of a matter of two or three minutes. motion JMR. CROSBIE: The secon4 was not moved, when the earlier motion was made, but since your Honour has not given me a chance to argue the point, I will r~spectfully appeal your ruling. MR. SPEAKER (~OEL): Motion is that the Speaker's ruling be upheld_.

Those in favour please say "ay." Contrary "nay." :Motion is carried. MR.•. CROSBIE: Divide Mr. Speaker. 36:!.7

.. MAY 7th., 1970 Tape no 798 Page 3 AN HON. MEMBER: On divison •• MR. CROSBIE: No on division. Divide. I have just called "on division." We 'would like to divide. MR. SMALLWOOD: ·Is it on division or is it to divide? MR. CROSBIE: On division. Two words, on division. MR. SPEAKER (NOEL): Motion is that this Bill be read a second time. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, just a few words on the Bill that was just introduced by the Minister of Provincial Affairs. It is not clear to me from the introductory remarks of the bon. minister of what is going to happen to the recreational program generally.

I can see very clearly the need for the administration of youth and recreational facilities connected therewith to be assumed by the Department of Education, but that is one facet of recreation, as I see it. There is a second facet that may be enc~mpassed and included in the Department of Education function and that is the general recreation program for the Province. Han. members will recall that approximately three years ago, there was a very massive recreational program indicated and announced by Government, through the Premier at St.

Lawrence; subsequently, this House was told that funds were not available for the implementation of this program. Now, Mr. Speaker, it is probably quite correct that the massive amount of funds will be necessary and that some day must be found to build stadia and other large buildings of accommodation for recreational sports, is not available this year. There is a second type of recreational facility that can be improved and implemented with little, if any, expenditure on the part of Government. I refer to the playing fields that we find throughout this Province.

Now the area that I am most familiar with is the Burin Peninsula. On the Burin Peninsula for more than - I was going to say more than a century, but certainly 3618

May 7th. , 1970 Tape no 798 Page 4 before the turn of the century, soccer was a very promiment and enthusiastic sport and to this day the soccer sport has been predominated and dominated by the Burin Peninsula and this has been done, Mr. Speaker, without any request for financial assistance from Government, and really without any request for financial support from the municipalities.

Occasionally, you might borrow a tractor for an hour or two from the Department of Highways and occasionally, you might ask one of the municipaliths to stick a pipe or something underneath a part of the field that is not suitable, but all of these towns on that Peninsula and I suspect that the same applies to other areas in Newfoundland, indeed I know, are desperately trying through their associations, their athletic associations to expand their outdoor playing facilities and the proposal, I think, that can be implemented and can be implemented t;o the benefit, not only of the athletes .• I am not talking about the professional athletes, the boys who make only the hockey teams but those who want to go out, as we use to say down there, and have a few slogs.

That program not only for their benefit but for the benefit of certain students can be implemented without any great cost to Government. We have, for instance, on the Burin Peninsula, a first class vocational training school and that school gives a very intensive course in heavy equipment operation, tractor operating and that sort of thing. Now I know of the staff of the vocational school, and I know the principal 1-tr. Et~hega~ are most co-operative with communities on the Burin Peninsula. Requestsfrom churches and athletic associations get very sympathic understanding and from time to time some assistance.

Now I would like very much to see not only on the Burin Peninsula but in other · areas in Newfoundland where vocational schools are located,~ ocher districts that provision be made, the cost will be insignificant to have this equipment made available to duly recognized athletic associations or alternatively to the municipalities for use on recreational purposes, 36!9

May 7th., 1970 Tape no 798 Page 5 to level their fields, to " upgrade their playing fields and to provide them. simply with good, flat piece of playing ground. This is not revolutionary. This is not expensive and this is a far cry from the great recreational program that was envisaged three years ago.

I would urge on the ~~nister of Education - it will be his responsibility to assume and look after all recreational .sports in Newfoundland and indeed, he can very easily do this, because the bon. minister, I presume, is also responsible for the administration of vocational schools. 1 know the requests have been made. I know that Mr. Graham Snow who is doing a first class job as Physical Education Director for this Province, is most enthusiastic about this and if at the appropriate time, we can have tabled in the House, the work that has already been done by Mr.

Snow with next to or very little cost to Government, it would be most surprising to our people. Let me give you an example, Mr. Speaker, very few people - there is very little publicity on this. We have in Newfoundland today, 1 believe it is, ten or twelve duly constituted professionally Who recognized figure skating clubs. would have thought that the figure skating club of, say even three years ago, Clarenville would produce a figure skating club and figure skaters that could win trophies in Atlantic open competition. It started about five years ago at Prince of Wales arena here in St.

John's, when the first figure skating club was formed of recent years. Since then, it has caught ~n. You have Clarenville, Bonavista, Gander, Grand Falls, I think, Labrador City, Buchans, I believe, Corner Brook, Stephenville and there are two, if not three in St. John's. Mr. Snow played a very important

part in the development of this progress. Now it might be unrealistic, in fact; I suspect it would be beyond the reach of most figure skating clubs in Newfoundland to retain 3620

May 7th., 1970 Tape no 798 Page 6 the services of a professional figure skater or instructor ., but what Mr.

Snow has done is that he has arranged for sufficient funds to be made available to provide one or two professional instructors whose services are available to all of these clubs and these instructors in turn take some of their top figure skaters, most of them are female, and as the father of one who has to get up 6:00 a.m. in winter to drive, 1 speak with a great deal of feeling on this matter, not the same feeling as 1 have at 6:00a.m., but to watch this develop and then to take a look at the minimum amount of money that is involved, surely that same approach can be used in baseball, soecer and other outdoor sports. 1 know that this is the type of program that the Director of Physical Education would like to see implemented here together with the other programs for stadia and that sort of thing we must have implemented.

Mr. Speaker, 1 commend to the bon. ~inister of Education the idea of using vocational schools and students and the heavy equipment that is available in these schools for the purpose of hel~ng any, not any man who wanders in and says: "I want my back gardern levelled off so that my boy can play soccer." But any duly constituled athletic association or any municipality for this purpose. Mr.

Speaker, we are approaching or the time has arrived, whether it is as a result of improvement in communications, travel ~o~ television or whatever it "is, that the demand for recreational facilities in Newfoundland, partlt·br~ught on by the shorter work week and that week is getting shorter and shorter every year and will continue to get shorter and ten years from now, we will be thinking back to the bad old days, when there use to be a forty-eight hour week work-week.

As this continues, the demands for ;ore recreatioaal facilities will increase. 1 have talked about the outdoor facilities that can be very cheaply implemented, but over and above that, we are going to and we have been faced, 3621

May 7th., 1970 Tape no. 798 Page 7 and this House is being faced with very justifiable aemands for the building of stadia in various parts of the Province. The Government bas a choice and it is a pretty clear ·choice and the choice is: drug deiinquency or recreation. It can be put just as simple as that. There is not much point in a few years time wr!nging our hands and saying that society is deteriorated or collapsed or that young people are beyond control, if at this time, we fail to meet the challenge that our youth are putting to us and that is to provide us with adequate sport facilities.

If a fellow has to beat the streets of Grand Bank day after day as I did, but at that time, we did not have the same temptations. We did not know what was going on in the capital city. Our only contact with the outside world was through the radio station in Sydney. But today things are quite different. You can no longer say that they have a problem in the schools in St. 3ohn's or they have a problem in the schools in Corner Book or any.of the ~osmopolitan areas. These same problems are belng~f~ced~ by every principle of every large school in Newfoundland and Labrador today. No area is immuned from this problem.

No area is immunef from the dreadful problems . that the youth are facing now in the field of drugs, but, we have to provide these young men and women with alternatives and the cost may look fairly high on paper. It may look to ba an astounding amount of money, if you find you have to build one or two or three stadia on the Burin Peninsula. It is nothing like the cost that may have to be faced in a few years time, if we do not heed the demands of our young people right now. I do not subscribe and I have said this earlier in this session, I do not subscribe to the philosophy that points up the generation gap.

I do not think there is a generation gap. I think there is a great gap in the thinking of ~ different generations, and I think, if there is a gap, or if there is a youth cult or if there is a generation cult that the fault does not lie with our young people. It lies with the tendency of their elders to generalize and to simply say that every boy or every girl who wears their hair a bit 3622

May 7th. , 1970 Tape no 798 Page I different or who dresses somewhat different from tbe"way their elders do must be all in this separated cult. This is wrong. The simple fact is that these intelligent, very intelligent boys and' girls who know far, far more than their parents do, when they·were the same age, not because the parents did not have the brain-power, but because the amount of knowledge was simply not available. What they are saying to us is: that we have to change our philosophy from believing and insisting that the criteria for responsib~ty is experience. That, Mr.

Speaker, sounds good, looks good on paper. I still have people say to me: my friend, when I went to work, I served my time. I served my time for nine years down at the dock and after I finished serving my time for nine years, I was given a job as an electrician's helper and then ten years later, 1 became a junior electrician and eventually, when I was fifty - and you know the older people say, this is the way it should be. When I·had the experience, they gave me the responsibility. Now that sort of thing, Mr. Speaker, will not wash any more. It is no longer valid.

It may have been valid fifty years ago. when we did not have the same information and the same knowledge and skills available to young people, but it is no longer valid today. If we dare overlook the fact that our young people, that a sixteen year old girl who is about to matriculate is already capable of performing work and expressing views that ordinarily we would wait twenty years to expect from people of older generations. If we dare do that, then we will have a generation gap. Then we will~have a youtij ' gap and a youth cult. But, Mr.

Speaker, we have not yet, fortunately, come anywhere close to reaching a point of no return. I would hope 3623

,.J May 7 1970 -rape /99 page 1. hope that with the administration of the recreational facilities and the youth services by the Department of Education. That not only will we see some understanding for the demands of people fow recreational facilities throughout this Province. Because again Mr. Speaker, may be I am a bit lb. prejudice in this respect but I kind of resent the fact that the smaller areas are not being able to take advantage of the same recreational and sport facilities that you would find in the metropolitan centres of St. John's Gander, Grand Falls, Corner Brook and Labrador City.

I am bold enough to suggest that down where I come from there is a need for one or two at least two ice hockey rinks, indoor arenas at this time. ·And I am bold enough to suggest Sir, MR. SMM1W66D: Mr. Speaker, I do no~ know if ~our Honour has read this Bill br·not. The Bill is just to change the name of the Department and say Deputy Minister of Education and Youth, talking about recreation and rinks and arenas MR. MURPHY: Why, why is the name being changed? Because all these things are~being taken into the Department of Education that is what we are discussing. MR.SMALLWOOD: Mr.

Speaker - MR.SPEAKER: I was referring to the remarks that were made by the Hon. the Minister in opening the, introducing the Bill perhaps the bon. member is getting a little far from , carry on. MR.HICKMAN: Well,Mr. Speaker, both these Bills, this is the second Bill we have had before the House to implement this policy, the decision of Government that has .. been made. We had the Bill to change the Department of Education to Dlpartment of Education and Youth, and we were subjected to a very learned discourse by the Hon. the Premier that wandered far, far far afield.

But still it is relevant because I for one do not believe you can categorize any pa~ticular branch of Education or any particular branch of recreational facilities and Mr. Speaker, what I am saying is this. That throughout Newfoundland today our people are·beginning to demand and properly so, that the recreational facilities that are provided in the metropolitan centres . of St~ John's and Corner Brook and Grand Falls and Labrador City be made 3624

May 7 1970 Tape 7'J'J page 2 l.b. available for other areas in Newfoundland. The day to end this sort of discrimination is now. Three years ago when this recreational programme was announced it met with almost unanimous support .throughout the Province of Newfoundland. Almost immediately and Your Honour will recall that the formula was 75 - 25. Twenty-five per cent to be paved by the municipality or the area involved and this could be done by a group of municipalities combining as a joint effort and seventy-five per cent by the Government.of the Province.

Within a matter of days Springdale was ready with its twenty­ five per cent. Indeed within a matter of hours St. Lawrence was ready with its twenty-five per cent of the cost of building a stadium. And Botwood is still today ready with its twenty-five per cent and I think it is twenty­ five per cent is on the ground. But all throughout Newfoundland no one knows this better than the Ron. Minister for Provincial Affairs, he is just swamped with requests from areas that met the formula laid down by the Ron. the Minister of Rrovincial Affairs and by the Government through this Ron. Minister.

Not that the people in th~se outport districts wanted to take advantage of the Government but simply that the need was there and they have been hoping for years that some sort of financial assistance along with their own initiative would be made available to ·provide their youth, the very group of people that we now refer to in this Bill now before this Ron. House to provide them with an outlet for their en .. energies. Mr. Speaker, let me tell this House that the situation has not changed. St. Lawrence is ready to build its stadium as soon as it gets its seventy- five per cent from Government.

Grand Bank - Fortune is a joint effort. It is prepared to build it as soon as the seventy-five per cent is available. Marystown - Burin is also ready. You give us the tools and what we have done on the Burin Peninsula in soccer we will do it in hockey and to the regret of the bon. Leader of the Opposition we may even do it in baseball. Mr. Speaker, our youth, it does not make any difference, the youth of of this Province should not be prejudiced because they are living in Fortune 3625

May 7 1910 Ta pe 799 page 3. lb. Bay or Green Bay or the great Northern Peninsula or the South West Coast or the North East Coast or Conception Bay. MR.SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, this is hopelest. utterly hopeless. MR.HICKMAN: Oh it is hopeless, because the Hon. the Premier does not like it. MR.SMALUIOOD: Utterly out of order. MR.CROSBIE: Government is hopeless. MR.SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, if I may, if I may speak to a point of order. T he House has already passed legislation in this present session putting a youth and recreation into the Department of Education. This is done and completed.

I do not know but it has received the Royal Assent at any rate it has passed the House at second reading. And all this Bill does is no~ to put youth in the deparment of Education but merely that having been done to change the name. That is all it does, to change the name. Does this give the reason and room for a complete dissertation on recreation in New­ foundland. It is hopelessly out of order Mr. Speaker, MR.HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, on that point of order, if I may on the point of order there are two bills almost identical, brought . before this House.

One was to change the Department of Education to the Department of Education and Youth and the other one we have today which is a complimentary piece of legislation the wording is almost identical. The Hon. the Premier friday before last went on for an hour on drugs, recreational facilities in New­ foundland, you name it, it was perfectly in order then and I MR.SPEAKER: Order! Two wrongs never did make a right and anybody being out of order on one occasion never made anybody in order on another occasion. that I know of.

Now the bon. the Minister in opening the debate on this Bill did refer to the transfer of authority from his department to the department of Education, and dtd ·:say that he felt that the Department of Education was the proper place for it. Now I took it that this was the context in which the debate would be carried on. The question of relevancy is always, I think the most difficult question that the Chair ever has to decide. It is far more difficult than all the points of order that are raised. But I do feel that the hon. member for Burin is going a very long distance and perhaps he would get back to the - 3626

May 7 1~70 ·.&:ape /'J'J page 4. lb. MR.HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, I have, I will not be another hour and a half. I have just about completed what I have to say. I am delighted to hear the applause from the hon. member for St. John's South who used to be a great promoter of recreation and involvement in the youth of our frovince • •• BOLAN: Mr. Speaker, 1 resent the implication "used to be," as used by the hon. member, MR.CROSB1E: ~Used to be is correct. MR.H1CKMAN: Well I presume that if the hon. member still is that he is complete in/accord with what 1 have been saying.

MR.NALAN:-- Not in complete accord with what you are aaying. MR.H1CKMAN: No of course not, because you were representing the view that I am trying to suggest should be changed. That the fact that a person who is born in Burin District, or born in Creen Bay or in Bonavista South he should not be discriminated against and should not be deprived of th~other facilities that the youth of our Province can find in the cosmopolitan areaJ That is what 1 am trying to say Mr. Speaker, and this is why 1 hear the sounds of discontent, across the House. MR, SPEAKER: Order!

The hon. members have just had a demonstration of what happens when hon. members do not try and be relevant to the point before the House. We get into a state of disorder, now I do feel that the hon. member for Burin should conffne himself to the matter before the House, which is simply the transfer between these two departments. MR.HICKMAN: Mr.

Speaker, the transfer of the responsibility for administering and this, there is a question mark in my mind on this because it has not been made completely clear but 1 believe that the intent of this Bill which is now before this House is that the sole and exclusive res~onsibility for t&e administration of recreational facilities throughout the Province of Newfoundland will rest in the department of Education and come under the sole and exclusive jurisdiction of the hon. minister of Education and 1 believe that is why the explanatory note to this Bill suggests that this Bill must be read in conjunction with the other Act that was passed quite 3627

MRY I 1 ~1/ll ... o. recently in this House. And I say Mr, Speaker, this is a good piece of legislation and I implore the Hon. the Minister of Education as he now 'pursuant to this Bill as he now discharges his responsibility in accordance with the terms and conditions of this Bill and that in so carrying out these responsibilities that he put an end to the discrimination against those in Newfoundland who do not reside in the cosmopolitan areas. }m.WORNE~L: Mr.

Speaker, I did not intend to have much to say on this Bill because quite frankly I thought it was one which would ~ass without too much comment, but, and I was going to draw the Speaker's attention to the fact that I thought the bon. gentleman who has just taken his seat was a little off the beam. However, however I will say this, that he woke me up beca~e 1 see a lot of good sense in what he has just said. And it reminded me of an

article which I read quite recently in the N.T.A. Journal. Some of the articles are too academic for me·but 1 must admit that this particular one caught my eye because it dealt with recreation· and youth and how the present trend todaJ is toward drugs and escapism, by false roots. 1 feel Sir, that this Bill is a very very good thing, I give it my wholehearted support and 1 also wish to say that the remarks that I heard of the hon. gentleman's speech are very apropos to this and I would like to make two or three comments Sir, I am not going to expatiate at all.

I would like to ask this question if today, organized sport is sport for sport~ sake or sport for health's sake and I would like the hon~ the Leader of the Opposition to perhaps answer that question for me, because 1 have a feeling Sir, that there is too much competitiveness in sports today. The competitive spirit is going too far even in politics, in everything it is going too far. What are we fighting for? ~fuat are we fighting each other for? A lot of craziness. MR~NEARY: This .side of the House and that side of the House. MR..WBRNELL: We are all trying to do the right thing.

MR.VROSBIE: Hear: Hear: MR.l~RN~L: I am glad f got a rise from the hon. leader of the dissident party. 3628

May 7 1970 Tape 799 page 6 lb. Mr. Speaker, I will say this also that I · think that sports should come under the Department of Education. It should be administered by the Department of Education. It should be part of the school curriculum, There is too much of this ~ramming the brain and not thinking of the body. Now what was the old Greek saying: mens sana in mens corpore sana(A healthy mind in a healthy body) something like that. So I think we should get back to that. We should think of sport in relationship to mental activity.

I was also thinking of the outport life, the bon. member for Fortune spoke about the competitive sports which they have down there on the Burin Peninsula. And, I have watched several games down there, soccer games, and seen the players from St. Pierre, the St Pierre football players. I have seen the St. Lawrence players, battling it cut with the Grand Bank Gee-Bees I think they call them. MR.H1CKMAN: Gee-Bees. MR.WORNELL: Gees-Bees yes, Gee-Bees. And it is quite healthy sport and it takes in the whole peninsula. As far as 1 am concerned the outports have not been forg~tten.

I think that the teachers themselves have forgotten the youth, they do not participate in games as they used to. 1 remember in my early school days we used to play cricket in Twillingate. We played cricket, Twillingate. MI.. MURPHY: During the summer holidays? MR.WORNELL: · No, no, it was after school, four o'clock, and as far as I am concerned we had the competitive ball game, the football games, we had the baseball games, and we played a game calle ·d pippy. I do not know if ever you played that game. No - MR.H1CKMAN: With two sticks, pedley. MR.WORNELL: Yes, right, but these were all good sports Mr.

Speaker, and it was all part of the school setup, it was not part of the educational setgp. But it was the extra curricular activities and it was all to the good. I have much pleasure in supporting this Bill and I think it was time that youth activities and sport come under the department of Education. 3629

May I l~tU JJage I .I.Do MR.EARLE: Mr. Speaker, I will try to stick to the principle of this Bill b§T' starting off and saying that I agree entirely with the purpose of the Bill which is transferring this activity to the Department of Education. There is only one great worry which I have over this and I think the House should be very much aware of it. There is no point whatever in merely transferring an activity from one department to another unless the funds are provided to make this activity, the use of it, to really make it go.

This was the unfortunate experience of my frieud the Minister of Provincial Affairs I think and there is no blame attached to him he just simply. did not have the funds.to do anything with. I often sympathise with the gentleman because he vas in a very very awkward predtcament. However in education I am afraid that this will be much more apparent. We have been told in this ~ouse during this session that the mounting needs for education as a whole are simply frightening. The amounts will escalate year by year, this year I think we are going up to $106,000 expenditure in the department of education.

The very fact that this activity will now be put under education there is a great danger that it may be lost in the rush. The other demands for education are so tremendous and so frightening that this may eventually just consist of a few very able dedicated people in the department trying to do their best but with nothing to do it with. And if that is the case this exercise which you are doing today will accomplish absolutely nothing.

I hope that that does not develop because I have been one of those who haw·. always felt that sports activities in the general physical fitness as an important part of education as the academic side of it. I am afraid that in many of these smaller places throughout the Province the schools do not have the facilities or the means or anything else to lay sufficient stress on· this part of ~hat I consider a fundamental part of education.

And the distressing part of it is that there are so many young people growing up in these smaller places. to I represent an area quite similar ~~ my friend from Burin, my colleague from Burin. There are so ::,many people in these 3630

May 7 197U ...... areas, so maRY young people, that I simply anxious, very.anxious 'and dying to get going to do something for themselves. For instance, in the settlement of Gamish, wM.ch is in my area, they last year produced a wiuning football . . team, they weTe the champions of the whole Newfoundland Area in that lea~ue. The settlement of Gam ish is a very, very small settlement, with quite a ltmited number of young people in it. But, they are excellent football players. They always have been.

And the story behind that is Teally pathetic, because these boys have a sem.i-.arsh on the side of t'tle main highroad running thl'Ough the place, and which through the dent of their own effort and work they have managed ta tum into some sort of a football field. And they have a 3631

May 7, 1970, Tape 800, Page 1 -- apb MR. EARLE: And appealed to me from time to time to try to get them some assistance, and last year 1 was successful for the first time in getting them this magnificent sum of $200. to spend on that field. Well they had already put i~ thousands of dollars worth of work on their~wn an~ they got $200. It is amazing what they did with that $200. Here again in a monster the size of Government, there is very often not the cooperation and willingness to help _ that there should be. Sometimes there is a willingness to help but regulations and so on prevent it.

F~r instance, in that particular area I think the Department of Highways could quite easily without putting itself out have just shoved a bulldozer in on one side and moved some rocks so that cars could park by the field. But because of regulations and one thing and another that could not be done.

It is pitiful, because if we were all working together in the main interest, I think these boys and in many other places similar could get just the little things done that would give them the necessary encouragement to go even further, and if there is one thing that is badly needed in all of the small settlements throughout Newfoundland it is the encouragement of the young people. AN HON. MEMBER: Leadership MR. EARLE: Well leadership is there very often, but leadership becomes frustrated because it has nothing with which to work.

And it is the job of Government to display leadership, and if Government displays to these people the leadership necessary and the interest in their affairs, then I do not think there will be any hesitation whatsoever in the young people backing up these efforts. I have seen it transpire in my place, and I cannot for a moment think why there should be such restrictions as an incorporated community having to do this; or a municipality. Why not th~ small places that are not organized?

As long as the people there are willing to put in their own labour, and willing to help themselves I do not care if. they are incorporated or if they are not. If we could do something for MR. SMALLWOOD (J.R.): They do not have to be incorporated, they do not have to be incorporated, it need only be a local organization that can take over responsibility for running the thing after it is there. 3632

May 7, 1970, Tape 800, Page 2 --apb MR. EARLE: The fact is, that whether they are incorporated or not, they simply do not get the help and there are a number of places like this that are not getting the assistance which is very small iu many instances, but which wou~d be of great help to them. Now to come back to my first point. In education there is a danger of this being swamped.

There is a terrific danger, but positively the crying needs of education generally, and it will be an everlasting shame and a disgrace to us if, for the fact that the education expense as such is so tremendous that this very, very good effort is submerged and not given the proper attention. a Because, from my thinking this is as important/part of education as anything that is now being done in the department. I sincerely hope that this transfer will not only be a transfer in fact of one division to another, but will be also a transfer in practice and a much greatly more encouraged transfer of activity. MR.

CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, in connection with this Bill, I am not going to speak to any great length because most of it has been discussed when the companion Bill was before the House. But 1 was disappointed that nobody has pointed out today, one of the really exciting, valid reasons for the transfer of the Youth :Administration from Provincial Affairs to Education.

Nobody has pointed out that the present encumbent of the Minister- ship of education, the bon. member for Grand Falls is not only a well known swimmer, still capable of swimming across Lawrence Pond and back again all in the one week, but he is quite a tennis bug also. I believe that we were told . just several days ago that the bon. Minister had beaten one of his sons in tennis, just recently. He did not tell the whole sto~. Now Mr. Speaker, I do not believe that the bon. Minister of Provincial Affairs makes any claims to being a great swimmer, or even a great tennis player.

He is great in many other respects, but when it comes to tennis and swimming I think the bon. Minister of Education is ahead of ~ him, and the bon. Minister of Provincial Affairs is prepared to agree, and this is a good reason for the youth program going over to the bon. Minister of Education. There is another great reason. Normally when the bon. the Premier has wanted to give the bon. the member from Grand Falls more experience, he has moved the 3633

Hay 7, 1970, TApe 800, Page 3 -- apb minister to a department. We all remember that• the bon. gentleman baa been the Minister of Mines, Agriculture and Resources, and ~nister of Labrador Affairs, and Minister of Education, Minister of Finance, Minister of Highways. Well there baa now been a new practice adopted Mr. Speaker. Instead of moving the ministe~ to a department, parts of departments are being moved to the minister. I think there is a lot to be said for this too. Why shift a whole minister, when you can shift part of a depart~nt?

There is a pretty sound reasoning, this will do away with the need for Cabinet shuffles. Never mind the Cabinet shuffles, shuffle the parts of departments. Never mind shuffling the Cabinet it is much better on a minister's dignity if be is not shuffled but the department is shuffled under him. I am soing to support the Bill for that reason also. Now Mr. Speaker, it was also mentioned, or something waa~~entioned about this recreation program that the Government announced in the fall of 1967.

We all remember that, that was the program that was seized upon I believe in Gander too during that bye-election vas~announced. Well this was a great program in principle. The hon. Premier just mentioned that you do not need to be incorporated, to share in the program. No you do not need to be because, whether you are incorporated or not incorporated, the program is not yet operative, there not being any monies voted by this Bouse since 1967 to get that program underway.

To look into the estimates for the Department of Education this years, shows that there is still no large amount being voted for capital purposes of the recreation program, the program that was to help communities establish playing fields, stadiums, oh, tennis courts or whatever the recreation facilities were, there is a whole program ~f bow you can get assistance. I think the bon. member for Burin said seventy-five - twenty-five. Well twenty-five per cent of nothing or seventy-five per cent of nothing is still aothing, and that program can only be effective if there is money voted for it. Now the bon.

Minister of Education is head of the department that spends the greatest amount of money in the Government, and perhaps with the youth administration under his department he will be able to get a million dollars or so to get the program started, particularly in the areas that the bon. members from Burin and Fortune mentioned. The out-port areas of the Province, the 3634

May 7, 1970, Tape 800, Page 4 -- apb smaller communities of the Province, where quite a bit can be done without large amounts of money. It is quite true Mr. Speaker, you do not need to be . incorporated to share in this program, you can share in nothing without being incorporated or doing a thing because, ~he program as yet does not amount to anyt~ing. We all hope that it will amount to something at least next year. There is nothing in the estimates for it this year unless there is going to be supplementary supply. There is often supplementary supply particularly in election years.

I would not doubt a Supplementary Supply Bill next session Mr. Speaker, of, oh, I do not know, $70 million or $80 million, perhaps $100 million if the election really gets going. So there is always supplementary supply, and perhaps this program will be funded in supplementary supply. So for these reasons Hr. Speaker, I am happy to support the Bill. I think that swimming has to be recognized and tennis playing, and that the bon. Minister for Provincial Affairs is the right man to look after our cultural affairs, while the bon.

Minister of Education is the right man to look after our sporting activities both organized and unorganized. MR. MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, if I may, just a few words. I think everybody in the House knows my feelings on this matter. I mentioned it on an earlier Bill which is in conjunction with this one, and I think basically lt_:vas much the same argument as used by bon. colleague next door. that the whole question of youth and recreation will be submerged in a massive department.

Before I go on with my few words, I have very much pleasure this afternoon in welcoming to the people's gallery an outstanding young man in the person of Mr. Don Winsor, recreational director from Gander, and I am sure Don is very much interested in what is happening here, and I feel that he shares to a very large extent my own feelings that a~ far as recreation and youth are concerned, we can write it off now just about.

Because, looking at the estimates for this year and last year it was not too great, down $22,000. this year so we figure out that we are really in a squeeze because in the great Department of Education I think there is a figure mentioned last night if I am not mistaken of $103 million of a budget, and we are not getting a fraction of one per cent of 3635

May 7, 1970, Tape 800, Page 5 -- apb this to spend on recreation. The Premier during the remarks seemed to be quite upset. 1 think he is a little bored with this topic •• 1 think the ~remier's great hobby is Economic Development but 1 am a little different, 1 believe in human development. 1 have been in youth pretty well all my life, and I really feel .bad, ~ feel sorry for the youth of this Province if they have to depend on a benevolent Government to help them, develop them. The bon. member for Trinity South.shouts across the House that what we want is leadership.

I can tell the bon. member for Trinity South now, I can give him 100 leaders this moment, but they cannot do anything without a dollar. They need a bit of assistance and that is what is lacking, in this the vote for recreation. We had some chance to discuss these matters when this Department was in Provincial Affairs, but now you will want a guide to get through the Department of Education to find out just what we are to do, because it is only a mere, mere, mere ~rEtion of education. The bon. member for Hermitage talks about when he was in school, they had games. Everybody haves games in school.

What about when you are off from school? This is what we are worrying about. Who looks after the kids then? Do you throw them adrift? Drugs can be mentioned, juvenile delinquency has been mentioned, I would like to see the juvenile court costs compared to the recreation grant in this bon. House.

We heard the old adage, or we used to one time 11 an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure 11 I do not think we see it in our youth program. 1967 has been mentioned when there was a bye - election in Gander, when we were going to vote thousands of stadiums, they were going up all over this Province, everywhere you could look. I would like the members to travel to any part of this Province outside of the urban areas. I will take the bon. member who is standing now, Bonavista South in his area, and let him tell us what playing fields or anyfhing else are in that area.

We have a stadium at Bonavista, thank God for that. MR. BARBOUR: Would the bon. member yield for a moment? MR. MURPHY: Yes definitely, I would love to MR. BARBOUR: Mr. Speaker, I can tell the bon. Leader of -·the Opposition that right this very moment the town of Bonavista, the Lion's Club are erecting a playground association that is costing $7,000. They are not coming with their . finger in. their IIIOuth to the Government. They have the guts, and they are working 3636

May 7. 1970 0 Tape 800 0 Page 6 -- apb MR.. WORNELL: Hear. hear. that is leaderahip MR.. BARBOUR: They are working for it as leaders. and ~hey are get~ing the money and they are going to have the money • and they are go.ing to have the recreation centre going this summer. and not only Bonavista South but nearby comm~ities, as well. So you see Sir 0 as far as Bonavista is concerned. we are gradually coming into our own. MR.. MURPHY: We are certainly pleased with th~t and a lot of congratulations to the Lion's Club, the Kinsmens Club and many others without them we have nothing. Mr.

Speaker. as I say I cannot discuss too much further because my feelings are known, and I think it is a tragis mistake, I believe that if evert there was a need for revitalized youth programs the time is now, and I do not think that it is going to get the attention in the Department of Education that it got in the Department of Provincial Affairs. The question has been raised of the availability of funds, but I would urge now that what we are : sowing in 1970 we will be reaping in 1980, ten or twelve years time.If we do not look after our kids now, We are going to be a very sorry people in a few short years.

Miscellaneous fitness and recreation projects throughout the Province this year $110.000. for all the Pro!ince of Newfoundland $110,000. just about one dollar a head per kid. We can create great ombudsmen and pay htm $20.000. There is more to be paid for the ombudsmen department almost than there is on recreation. Look up your estimates. and when we come to them we will make a point of it. For the boy's home at Whitbourne and Pleasantville, and I have nothing whatever in trying to bring back to the social life these wayward boys, but the grant exceeds this one by three of four hundred per cent.

Is not that a part of the Answer? Is it not better to try to keep these kids out of these detention homes and everything else now than have to pay this money later on? Hr. Speaker, I personally will vote against · this. I may be the only one in the House, but I feel that we are making the wrong move. Instead of making recreation a more substantial part of a department, we are putting it in the Department of Edcuation where it will be just insignificant, insignific~t. When I s~oke the ·last time the bon. Minister of Education more or less 3637

May 7, 1970, Tape 800, Page 7 -- apb insinuated that I was not being respectful more or less to his deputy minister. I have the greatest admiration for the deputy ministers~ for everyone in the Department of Education, but as I said at that time they were academics, academics. I gather from the bon. Minister's remarks at that time. RON. F.W.ROWE (Minister of Education): I did not say that, no, I did not say that. MR. MURPHY: But there is education and there is education, and I think the type of education that our millions of dollars are being spent on have no bearing whatever on the recreational projects.

We can talk about schools, we have them and thanks be to God we have them in the schools, but when these kids are out of school in the summertime there is the dangerous time. If we cannot find a few more dollars to pass on to people, not big salaries because none of these, we heard the bon. the member for Burin talk about the great football league on the Burin Peninsula ~ and so on and so forth. I doubt if there is one of these people who receive five cents as a salary for the work they are doing.

We are talking about figures, not five cents, and 1 doubt if they get paid out of pocket expenses the great majority of them for what they are doing. If we had to pay these people we could never, never find enough money to do it for the work they are doing. All I ask is that this Government appreciate and help out to some degree with a few dollars for projects, for recreational facilities, and as an encouragement.: : · I think if this encouragement was coming in the shape of a little more finance, there is no trouble to find leaders, we have them in this Province Mr. Speaker. Thousands of the~. MR. WORNELL: Mr.

Speaker, will . the bon. the Leader of the Opposition finishes will he answer this question. Does he think,does the bon. Leader of the Opposition think that it would be harder to approach Mr. Snow and his administrative department in the Department of Education than in the Provincial Affairs Department~ MR. MURPHY: 1 do not believe so Mr. Speaker, I think it will be quite easy to approach him, but it is not the approach it is what you come away with that counts. 1 think you are going to feel a bit more disappointed leaving Mr. Snow in this department than you were in the Department of Provincial Affairs.

As little as the vote was in the Department of Provincial Affairs, this year now 3638

May 7, 1970, Tape 800, Page 8 -- apb as I said it is down approximately ten to twelve per cent, the vote for recreation in the Department of Education. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, the English poet Alexander Pope has two lines in one of his nieces of poetry saying " a man wants but little here below nor wants that little long." Now that may be true of some parts of the world but it is not true of Newfoundland. Man wants an awful lot in Newfoundland and wants it for a long time, and wants it fast and wants more than can be provided, and wants it quicker than it can be provided.

The needs of Newfoundland are incredible, They are almost numberless. There is not anything that we had in sufficient number or quantity. We have nothing. We have not enough schools. The schools are not good enough. We have not enough teachers. They are not sufficiently well paid, they are not sufficiently well trained. The schools have not enough recreational facilities, they have not enough playgrounds. They have not enough gymnasia, enough swimming pools, enough of anything. They have not enough for domestic science, they have not enough for science. They have not enough of anything.

There is not a school in the Province now, at this moment twenty­ one years after we became a Province of Canada, not one solitary school. not even the very best schools we have in the whole Province. Bishop Spencer, Bishop's College 1 Bishop Field, St. Bon's, Mary Queen of the World, Mary Queen of Peace, Gonzaga, the great schools in Gander, the great schools in Corner Brook; the great schools in Grand Falls, the great schools we have now all over our Province~ We built over 1,000. 1,000 new schools 3639

May 7th, 1970 'l'ape 801 JM- 1 MR. SMALLWOOD: new ones, one thousand since Confederation. There is not one school in Newfound- land today that has everything that it ought to have, e~erything it needs, which means that the school children of Newfoundland today are deprived* they are deprived• . some more than others, in some parts of Newfoundland are more terribly deprived than they are in other places. Now that is only schools, the same thing is true of hospitals, the same thing is true of municipal services. You have still in Newfoundland places without water and sewer systems in them.

You still have places in Newfoundland whose streets are muck and mud and rocks, bogs and stumps, not paved. You still have towns in Newfoundland with no system of collecting the town garbage that accumulates every day throughout the year, to take it away and dipose of it in a sanitary fashion to leave the town clean and tidy and healthy. You have hundreds of places in Newfoundland, literally hundreds, without that ordinary commonplace, simple, primative, , crude necessity of civilized living. And so it goes there is nothing in Newfoundland that we have.in sufficient number or quantity or quality, nothing.

In every direction our needs are endless in number, variety and size. So when you talk of facilities for the youth of our Province and in doing that you are talking about one of the most important things that .there could be in any part of the world when you are talking about the need for recreational fac~lities and conveaieaces in our Province today you are talking about one thing which is only one of an unnumbered number, an uncounted number of things that we need in our Province.

We have 13,000 civil servants and we have not got enough money to pay them enough salary, we just have not got enough money to do it. We have 1,000 new schools and we have not got enough to give them everything they need • . We have 800 settlements and we cannot give them what they need and the needs are endless in our Province. Now for years we were expanding very fast after Confederation came for : about eighteen years, nearly nineteen years, certainly eighteen. We expanded in every direction and we had expansion and improvement and growth such as we had never dreamed of.

That great period of expansion and growth and improvement in practically every direction, that great era of growth slowed down, not to a stand •till, but it slowed down noticeably, you could not miss it, it slowed 3640

May 7th, 1970 Tape 801 .JM - 2 MR.

SMALLWOOD: down about two years ago and that put an end for the time being to a great program that the Government originated, adopted, decided to carry out and announced and it had no sooner announced it than the recession hit Canada and hit the United States, It was a program of about $10. million altogether, well actually as we announced it, in fact I remember well because I am the one who did the announcing, I aade the announcement that we were going to spend a lot of money on a program that would cost something better $5. million and $10. million spread over· a period of up to ten years or so.

Now that would have been roughly an :average of $1. million a year and of that $1. million a year the Government of Newfoundland were to provide, .what was it on the basis of 75-25, we would provide seventy-five-per-cent of it, that would be three quarters of a million a year, about three quarters of a million, with the communities in the aggregate putting up a quarter of a million a year for this period of about ten years. These communities had to be organized either as municipalities, city councils like Corner Brook, like St.

John's, town councils like Grand Falls and Gander and Grand Bank, Fortune, Placentia, Port aux Basques, Lewisporte, Springdale, St. Anthony, Carbonear, Harbour Grace, Bay Roberts, Spaniards Bay and so on and then community councils much smaller and then in addition to these municipal organizations, other local organizations that could be regarded seriously to whom the management of the recreational facilities provided out of this fund would be entrusted.

It vas necessary in the first place for some­ one to put up the twenty-five-per-cent, someone local and then secondly if they put up the twenty-five-per-cent and the Government the seventy-five making one hundred per-cent of the cost of the football field or the arena or the swimming pool or the other facility along that line, that having been done, the money having been subscribe, the facility having been put there, there would then arise the need of some practical management of it.

A stadium, a football field, a swimming pool or a baseball diamond will not manage itself and certainly the Government of Newfoundland had no desire in this world, not in the slightest had we any desire that through any of the Ministers, through any of the depart- 36 menta we would take over the management of these sporting facilities around the

May 7th, 1970 Tape 801 JM - 3 MR. SMALLWOOD: Province. That is the last thing on earth we had in mind that we would manage them, that we would be responsible for the management of them, that we would be responsible for the expense of management because if we managed them they would be expensively managed. It is Government money, the Treasurery would be behind it, the sky would be the limit and they would all incur deficits and no one would care because the deficit would be paid by the Government so we insisted, no, nothing like that, none of that.

Once the money was raised, we putting up three quarters of it, the local people putting one quarter of it and the thing having being built then the local people would take it over and run it and they would foot the bills of running it, if there were any deficits they would find the deficits, they would get up concerts, they would get up maybe bingo, they would get up goodness knows what to raise the money with the local loyality, the local patriotism.

They had this facility for the youth of their own area and so if it lost money in the operation it was their job to pick up that money somehow to pay the aebt and pay the deficit. Now this makes sense, this was their program, it was a great program, it is a great program, it has not been carried out and the reason it has not been carried out is that we no sooner announced it than tight money came in, scaree money and, Sir, we had to make our choices aa.:h what we would do with the money we had and the needs in other directions were greater than the need for recreational facilities.

The first thing you do is keep the school going, the first thing you do is build new school rooms, the first thing you do is see that there are enough schools for the youngesters to get in off the streets. If you have only enough money to provide a school or recreational facilities, one or the other but not both, which one will you provide? You will provide the school. Obviously you will, naturally enough ~u will and you would be a fool if you did not, you should be locked up, you would be a menace, you would be a danger to Newfound- land if you chose an areaa,a stadium to a school or anything. MR.

MURPHY: Newfoundland Bulletin, which is more important? MR. SMALLWOOD: A school is more important but if the Newfoundland Bulletin has • to pay for all the things that are needed what you would need to do would be to 3642

Hay 7th, 1970 Tape 801 JM- 4 MR. SMALLWOOD: start say one hundred Newfoundland Bulletins at a cost of say $100,000 a year and then close them all down and the money you would save would build all kinds of things but one bulletin will not do it. Closing down one bulletin will not build very much in Newfoundland and in doing that you would fail to provide much else but you would be depriving the Newfoundland people, tens of thousands of thea, of the information, the useful and necessary information that they can now get in the bulletin and no where else. MR. CROSBIE: What a joke. MR.

SMALLWOOD: Yes, quite a joke and we know on whom the joke is to, we know whom the joke is on. MR. CROSBIE: Pictures of the hon. gentleman. MR. SMALLWOOD: Pictures of me have occurred in the last couple of years in the bulletin at least four or five times in a couple of years and if a publication that goes into every home in Newfoundland at public expense is not allowed to print the picture of the Premier five or six times in two years then the only thing to do is to print the bon. gentleman across especially if he has his new hair-do.

If he will bring back his old hair-do we will take pictures of him and print that and then in the next issue after that if he has another new hair­ do we will print a picture of him with his new hair-do and if he will give us a new hair-do every month we will print his picture every month showing the new hair-do of the bon. gentleman. MR. CROSBIE: We EifY}you with a new promise or a couple of promises that predict other promises. The recreation program was a promise three years ago. MR. SMALLWOOD: It was a promise and it was not only a promise it was a program. MR. CROSBIE: Yes, but you reversed. MR.

SMALLWOOD: We have not reversed it. MR. CROSBIE: Nor you have not done anything about it. MR. SMALLWOOD: We have not done anything about it. That is correct. These three statements are correct, (1) that we evolved · and announced our program (2) that we announced it and (3) that we have not carried it out but there is a full fact that I stated that the bon. gentleman did not hear apparently and that is that just at the time that we did announce it ti~ht money - 3643

May 7th, 1970 Tape 801 JM - 5 MR. CROSBIE: Nonsense. MR. SMALLWOOD: Nonsense, tight money is nonsense. Well it is a very unpleasant nonsense if it is nonsense. MR. CROSBIE: It is not tight money. You borrowed more in the last three or four years than ever before. Tight money has nothing to do with it. MR. SMALLWOOD: What we borrowed it for was for things even more important. MR. CROSBIE: Tight money did not stop you. MR. SMALLWOOD: If you have to make a choice in Newfoundland, I have already said, if you have to make a choice between borrowing money MR. CROSBIE: Tight money in Newfoundland - MR.

SMALLWOOD: Be quiet. If you have to borrow money - MR. CROSBIE: You cannot take it. MR. SMALLWOOD: I can take far more than the bon. gentleman will ever know how to hand out and I will hand out more than he will ever, ever dream of. MR. CROSBIE: Hand away, ram on. MR. SMALLWOOD: Yes, he took it on the chin, he took it on the chin on November lat. I sank him very deep then, down deep he went then. MR. CROSBIE: The great I am. MR. SMALLWOOD: I did not raise it. MR. CROSBIE: The great I am. MR. SMALLWOOD: The great I was, the great I was. MR. CROSBIE: Still here, not eighteen feet deep. MR.

SMALLWOOD: Eighteen feet, the only thing MR. SPEAKER (NOEL): Order Please! I think we might consider that little episode over and move on with the business on the debates. MR. CROSBIE: My hearing stopped me from - MR. SPEAKER (NOEL): Order Please! MR. SMALLWOOD: Anytime the hon. gentleman wants it he will get it, anytime. MR. C_ROSBIE: You may as well start right now. MR. SMALLWOOD: Well he has been getting it right along, he has been getting it right along. MR. CROSBIE: The bon. gentleman does not like the House of Assembly any longer, he no longer can bully everybody in the House of Assembly. 3644

May 7th, 1970 Tape 801 MR. SMALLWOOD: He no longer ever did. MR. CROSBIE: He did for a year. MR. SMALLWOOD: He did. Did he bully the bon. gentlemanl MR. CROSBIE: He tried to. JM- 6 MR. SMALLWOOD: I tried and failed. Yes, that is why the hon. gentleman is over there, that is why he ran for leader, that is why he was defeated, that is why he was crushed, that is why the Liberal party tossed him out of the Leadership Convention. MR. CROSBIE: If you want them to think that you give a reason. MR. SMALLWOOD: All the Leadership Convention tossed the bon. gentleman out on his MR. MR. backside.

CROSBIE: MURPHY: I do not want no slander going around - I would like to get back to the subject. MR. SMALLWOOD: The Leadership Convention tossed the hon. gentleman out on his backside. MR. SPEAKER (NOEL): Order Please! . Order Please! Could we move on with itt MR. SMALLHOOD: As long as the bon. gentleman, Your Honour, keeps interrupting me I will answer him back. Fair enough, is that fair enough? MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker - MR. WELLS: Bully boy. MR. SMALLWOOD: The bon. gentleman, Mr. Speaker, is making a career out of hating me, h~ is making a career of it. That is all he has, he has not another thing. MR.

CROSBIE: The poor old Premier. MR. SMALLWOOD: Oh, yeah! The poor old Premier buries the bon. gentleman every time. MR. SPEAKER (NOEL): Order Please! We will have to insist on order. The bon. Premier has the floor and the hon. member for St. John's West is sitting down and I must ask that the Hon. Premier be given leave to speak in quietness. I might also say that visitors in the gallery are not supposed to make their presence known. So if the hon. the Premier will please continue without interruption. MR. SMALLWOOD: Yes, Mr. Speaker, thank you. The hon.

Premier not only has the floor he has the Premiership and he also has the leadership of his party. 3645

May 7th, 1970 Tape 801 JM- 7 MR. CROSBIE: Pretty shaky. MR. SMALLWOOD: Shaky, try it sometime, just try it. Wait till we pick the moment and the bon. gentleman will find out. Now, Mr. Speaker, - MR. CROSBIE: Tell us about CBC, you will not even allow the CBC to interview us. MR. SMALLWOOD: Bow about the new hair-do? Going out to get a new hair-do? Going down to the Beauty Parlour? MR. CROSBIE: How about the CBC? MR. SMALLWOOD: Go down to the Beauty Parlour. MR. CROSBIE: You do not allow anyone'sviews on it but your own. MR. SMALLWOOD: Go down to the Beauty Parlour. MR. CROSBIE: CBC cannot be bullied - MR.

SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, the question of the CBC has been raised maybe as it has been raised I am allowed to answer it. Prime Minister Pearson went on television in Ottawa when he was Prime Minister and he made an extremely import- ant statement as Prime Minister of Canada and completed his television broadcast and stepped out of the studio and in another studio adjoining on came three panel- iats Who proceeded to tear him apart - MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. The bon. the Premier earlier in this debate got up on a point of order that the debate was not relevant.

There is nothing to do with the CBC or the Prime Minister Pearson in this Bill and I submit that the remarks of the bon. the Premier are quite irrelevant to this Bill. MR. SPEAKER(NOEL): I understand it as the bon. gentleman stood up he made a remark which was to a degree derogatory of the bon. the Premier and the hon. the Premier asked leave to speak on this point of privilege which is really what it amounts to and he is now making an explanation in reply to the remark that was made.by the bon. gentleman. MR. CROSBIE: This is not a question of privilege, I can speak to the question also.

MR~-SPEAKER (NOEL): Afterwards. MR. SMALLWOOD: Bully. The bully, Sir, the bully. The Prime Minister of Canada having made his statement on television stepped out the studio and in another 3646

May 7th, 1970 Tape 801 JM- 8 MR. SMALLWOOD: adjoining studio of the same station three men proceeded to tear his speech, his remarks apart. He was furious about it. Mr. Diefenbaker had ~he same experience. He went on television and made an important statement and the minute he stepped out he was attacked by three panelists·. who came on instantly after. It was : then contended by Mr. Pearson and by Mr.

Diefenbaker that when a public man makes an importao~ statement or a statement on an important matter the public have a right, the listeners have a right to at least reflect on it, be sure they under- stand ~hat it is about before somebody tears into him and into what he said. And What I said to the CBC, I did not ask CBC to broadcast me. They ask . - ' 111e. They came to me.

They came to me in this Chamber here and they w~nt to c.JON and they asked CJON, ,,ill you let us broadcast the ~remier when you film it, will you let us copy it and broadcast it the same time you are?" CJON _c&lle to me and I said, "Yea, Of course, they can broadcast me the s11111e time you do on condition that for at least half an hour there be no c011111ent, let the public hear what I have to say, let it sink in and let them understand it, let them reflect on it then let anyone tear into it." The CBC diaagreeded, would not do it.

Now what I ask ·•as completely reasonable, it is 'f.hat Pearson asked,it iS' what Diefenbaker asked· .• nd .. it :is ·what · Sullwood '!'&&ked,. 4u1te reasonable, quite rational. I notice up here what happens. A Minister gets up and makes a statement in this House, the first is heard of it is when he makes the statem~nt now you turn on your television that same night or your radio and what do you get? His statement, no. You get the opinion of the Leader of the Opposition of the opinion of this, that, the other man on it and in all that the statement that the Minister has made is lost.

All the public get is somebody'& opinion of what the Minister said without getting a decent account of what the Minister said. That is why I vent down last night. I did not want to be butchered on a matter of the most grave importance to Newfoundland, the whole people and population of Newfoundland, a aatter of the upmost importance and that is why I would not allow myself to be butchered by getting up and making the statement here yesterday. I would have been butchered in everything I said, butchered, slaughtered and butchered, twisted, distorted and biased but by going on myself the whole population listened.

They 3647

May 7th, 1970 Tape 801 JM- 9 MR. SMALLWOOD: could agree or disagree, that is the right of the·public but at any rate they heard what I said. They could take it or leave it, they could asree or diaasr•• but if I made the statement here in this House, what would the public hear that night? Somewhere squeezed in between would be what I said, part of what 1 said I but moat it would be surrounded by what all kinds of people said about what 1 said. Is that siving the public an opportunity to get the facts? It is not. MR. MURPHY: The bon.

Premier Wilt Olll::and uda ·a statement at 9:30 · P~M. :wt ·: night and CJON must have put it on at 5:00 o'clock this morning. I never heard anything since. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to address myself now to the - HR. MURPHY: The Leader of the Opposition is certainly not getting any .­ MR. SPEAKER (NOEL): Order Please! MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, I have the floor. HR. CROSBIE: Could I address myself now to the matter of privilege? MR. SMALLWOOD: I have not been speaking to any privilege. MR. SPEAKER (NOEL): Let the hon. the Premier finish his reply to the bon. member - JIR. SMALLWOOD: Mr.

Speaker, excuse me. I am not on any point of privilege. MR.· CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, on the point of order. MR. SMALLWOOD: I am not on a point of privilege. MR. CROSBIE: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, I got up on a poin~ of order just a few minutes ago and when the bon. Premier started irrelevant remarks to the principle of this Bill and the Deputy Speaker then in the Chair told me the bon. the Premier was speaking on a point of privilege and I would have the right to reply when he finished speaking on his point of privilege about the CBC and I therefore request my right to speak on this question of privilege.

MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, on that point of order, on that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I am not on a point of privilege, ·I have not asked for 8 point of privilege, I have not addressed myself to a point of privilege and 1 have nothing to do with 8 point of privilege. MR. CROSBIE: A point of privilege it was. MR. SMALLWOOD: I have nothing to do with a point of privilege. Now Your Honour 3648

May 7th, 1970 Tape 801 JM - 10 MR. SMALLWOOD: I rill tell you what happened. I was speaking and the ho.n. ge11t1eman stood up and went over and leaned against the door there and carried on the conversation . standing up loudly about the CBC and my attitude toward the CBC and he carried on a running conversation and I aaid,"alright if you want to hear about the CBC l.will ~ell you." I did not say anything about privilege. t assert in the hearing of this whole ilouse, . you can get Hansard, Mr. Speaker~ and you rill find I did not raise a point of privilege. So there. is no point of privilege - 3649

. JW May 7, 1970 Tape #802 Page 1 MR. SMALLWOOD: Well I did not raise a point of privilege. MR. CROSBIE: On a point of order. MR. SMALLWOOD: I called the House to witness. I did not raise a point of privilege. Nor did I raise a point of order. MR. CROSBIE: I care not what the hon. the Premier raised, but the Speaker told this hon. member that the hon. the Premier was s~eaking on a point of privilege, and I would have a right to reply. MR. SPEAKER: I am fully aware of what took place. I was not out of earshot. I also heard the remarks of the Chair in respect to this.

As I understand it, there were certain remarks made by the hon. member for St. "John's West. And the hon. the Premier said, "if that is what you want I will give you an explanation now," and the Chair ruled that he could give his ·explanation, and when he was through with his explanation, then the hon. member for St. John's would have the right to comment on the explanation that the hon. the Premier iR giving. MR. SMALLWOOD: During my speech? MR. CROSBIE: Not during the speech. MR. SMALLWOOD: Well when? He is going to speak twice in this debate? Mr. Speaker, is he going to speak in this debate?

He is only allowed to speak once. This is second reading. MR. SPEAKER: It was raised by the hon. member for St • .hihn •·s West and the hon. the Premier answered. MR. SY.IALLWOOD: ------- It does not give him any right to take part again in this debate, and Mr. Speaker, I will move that he will not be permitted to do it, and we will have a vote on it. MR. CROSBIE: Aha, that is good. Y.m. SY.~LLWOOD: Aha, that is good. That is democracy. That is democracy. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, in accordance with the understandin~ in your ruling, I would now like to address myself to this matter of the CBC. MR.

S~ALLHOOD: '-lr. Speaker, I move that he be not heard. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, that the CBC is quite contrary to what the hon. the Premier has said. Quite contrary. 3650

JW May 7, 1970 Tape 0802 Page 2 MR. SPEAKER: Will both members take their seats so we can bring some semblance of order into this. I will repeat and I was listening to the debate in my own office, when the Chair was occupied by the Deputy _ Speaker. The way I heard it and the way I understood it was this. Now I could be wrong, but this is my impression of what went on. The hon. member for St. John's made certain remarks concerning the CBC and the rights and privileges of various people. The hon. the Premier said that if the .hon. the member was satisfied, the House was satisfied, he would go ahead. MR.

SMALLWOOD: Not if was satisfied. If he wants to know I will tell him. MR. SPEAKER: Anyway the situation boiled down to this that the Premier started his reply in response to these remarks made by the member for St. John's West. At that particular time, if I heard it correctly, the Chair said and gave the ruling, that as the whole thing was irrelevant to the Bill that was before the House at the present time. And the hon. the member for St.

John's West had made certain remarks, and the Premier was allowed to make comments on these remarks, and if I am correct, I believe that it was said from the Chair that after which the hon. member for St. John's West might make some comment, · or ask some question or make some remarks anyway in explanation of what had already been said. It is a difference of opinion between two individuals of a set of circumstances and a set of facts. There are no points of ~rivilege. There is just an argument between two people as to a different

interpretation of a set of facts. I "think that in the realm of reasonableness that this matter should 1 be concluded. We do not want to get the debate so disorderly that the House is brought into disrepute and the dignity of the place is lost completely. We want to try and avoid that at all costs. I would ask all hon. gentlemen if they would co-operate with the Chair. Co-operate with the spirit of the rules of this House, and let us call this matter concluded. This is not a ruling. This is an apnea! to the reasonableness of people to have this matter which is irrelevant to the issue anyway, set aside as of now. 3651

JW May 7, 1970 Tape /1802 Page 3 MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I rose on a poin 't of order, to point out that the hon. the Premier was irrelevant in his remarks about the CHC. Now I am ready to accord the Chair every dignity and respect, but I am .not ready to be discriminated against. And the Speaker who was in the Chair, stated that if the Premier continued with his remarks on the CBC I would have the right to answer them. And I would now call upon the Speaker to see that I am granted that right which the Deputy Speaker promised me in this debate. MR. S"fALLIVOOD: Hr. Speaker, I claim the right to speak to that.

The bon. gentleman from St. John's stood up while I was speaking, I had ·the floor. I was making a speech. He stood up, walked over by the door and began talking to me back and forth about the CBC. He raised the question of the CBC and I said in reply, if the hon. gentleman wants to hear about it, I uill explain it. And I did explain it. He walked out. I explained it. He came back, and although he had raised the ouestion of the CBC, said now that I was irrelevant to the Bill before the House. Mr. Speaker, t·lr.

Acting Speaker, said and he was mistaken, sincerely mistaken without the shadow of a doubt, that I was speaking on a point of privilege, '~hich I was not. I did not speak on any point of privilege. I did not raise any point of privilege. I did not raise any point of order. I continued with my speech. And I did not raise the question of the CBC. ·And Hr. Speaker, no hon. gentleman is allowed to make two speeches at second reading. And I have the floor. MR. HICKMAN: May I speak on that point of order?

I participated as Your Honour knows earlier in this debate on yooth, and I was called to order on two occasions by the hon. the Premier, because I dared talk about recreational facilities on the Burin Peninsula, that this was a stretch of the imagination to bring this debate on the Youth Bill as far afield as recreational facilities on the Burin Peninsula. And I abided by the rules of the Chair, and tried to confine myself to the Youth administEation. Now when I commented the Chair that time Mr. Speaker, was that two wrongs do not make a right. And I submit that it is obvious that no matter what 3652

JW May 7, 1970 Tape #802 Page ~ the cause o~ the reason, a debate on the CBC has about as much to do with the Yduth Administration Bill and the Bill that is before this House is something on Outer Space. And the point of order is this Mr. Speaker, that I ask the Chair to direct that there be no further ·discussion on the CBC during this debate. MR. SPEAKER: I make this one comment, and I thank the hon. member for Burin for his contribution to this very difficult situation. I will say again, I quite agree, I have not given a ruling. I have given, I have~akked.

I have appealed to hon. members to desist and have done with this matter. If the Chair said that the hon. member for St. John's West would have the right to reply, I can only say this, that I have to, and I intend to, if he said so, well then . I will be in the position where I am going to allow him to. But I ask in the name of common sense and dignity that we desist from this awful bickering and get back to the business before the House. MR. CROSBIE: Very well Mr. Speaker. I will forget it. MR. SMALLWOOD: If the hon. gentleman desists. I desist as well.

Now what I was talking about before I was interrupted, is this Mr. Speaker, that the Government did originate a program of .youth and recreation facilities. We did. We did announce it, and we had no sooner announced it, than recession and tight money and scarce money developed across Canada and across the United States. AN HON. MEMBER: When was it announced? MR. SMALLWOOD: It was announced about two and a half, three years ago, between two and a half. Anyway it was not associated in my mind with anything else. It is a program that we evolved and announced, and it had taken us a good many months to evolve it.

We took a good many months to evolve the program, and I had the honour of announcing it. And the ~rogram was one that would cost something between $5 million and $10 million, and would take something of the order of ten years to carry out. That was the program I announced. I had no sooner announced it than the 3653

JW May 7, 1970 'Jape /1802 Page 5 tight money situation descended AN HON. MEMBER: It was no sooner announced than polling day MR. SMALLWOOD: Well the bon. gentleman if he is referring to a bye- · election in which he was elected, would obviously remember that bye- election more vividly than I would. It was the one political experience of his life. It was one of dozens I have been in. It was the one that he was in. MR. SPEAKER: I must warn bon. members again we are getting on another side issue of a bye-election in Gander.

And I know that when a door is open somebody is bound to walk in, but let us keep it as we should please. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, in the rough and tumble of debate in Parliamentary bodies such as this, hon. members will call across the floor at ea