~~' Volume XL ~ J~ \, <. ~' ""-· ~ \\- Thursday Province of Newfoundland FORTIETH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND Second Session VERBATIM REPORT {Hansard) Speaker: Honourable Patrick McNicholas Number 47 5 June 1986

The House met at 3:00 p;m. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! MR. TULK: On a point of privilege, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of privilege, the han. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: I have · recently come into and seen, and I have in my possession, some papers that were dropped to me in . an unusual manner. MR. PATTERSON: The Dead Sea Scrolls. MR. TULK: No, they are not papers concerning the member for Placentia. Mr. Speaker, they are obviously papers that are from the former Minister of Fisheries files, and I will be sending a copy to the Chairman of the Privileges and Elections Cornmi ttee.

They are papers that perhaps might be considered departmental papers. As a result of looking over them, I felt that I should bring to. the attention of the House the fact that I have received them. They take a far different outlook on the Canadian Salt fish Corporation, for example, than we would take perhaps in this House when speaking of the mandate of the Sal tfish Corporation. In view of the fact that there have been some questions asked to the Minister of Fisheries (Mr . Rideout) concerning Armazans - is it? - I think, that is the correct pronuncation.

My pronuncation of Newfoundlandese is not too good, let alone Portuguese. But since they make some reference to that company, L2737 June 5, 1986 Vol XL and there were some questions asked, I understand, about some $2 million - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I am wondering what the point of privilege is? MR. TULK: The point of privilege is that I want the House to be aware, and I do not want to impede the progress of the House, Mr.

Speaker, in any way, and I want to table those reports so that the administration, perhaps the Premier and the Minister of Fisheries, and the former Minister of Fisheries, and, as well, the Chairman of the Privileges and Elections Committee can use this information. To be quite frank with you, I see very little evidence of anything damaging there, but I would want the administration to have those papers so that they can take a look at them to see, if indeed, there is anything there relating to Armazans or if there is anything indeed relating to Privileges and Elections. Mr. Speaker, I want to table this . MR.

PATTERSON: How many on the other side havae read the thing? MR. TULK: I do not know. Statements by Ministers MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. RIDEOUT: No. 47 R2737

Mr. Speaker, by virtue of the Newfoundland Fish Inspection Act, my department is responsible for the licencing of fish buyers and processors. The aims of this licencing programme are to support the processing sector of the industry by regulating processing capacity, and to establish standard practices for processing operations as well as for controlling the quality of finished products: Mr.

Speaker, the Fish Inspection Act, with its various licencing and regulatory activities, is a reflection of government policy towards the maintenance of an appropriate environment that will allow fish processors to operate in an orderly manner. rt is my intention, Mr. Speaker, that this licencing programme continue to be effective in providing adequate regulatory support to the industry, support . which will further strengthen the processing sector and thus have a positive effect on fishermen and others in the industry.

In this context, I have directed my department to review policies and regulations pertaining to licencing on a regular basis. These ongoing reviews will be carried out in consultation with the industry. Recently I discussed several proposed changes with both the processors associations and the Fishermen's Union, and I am pleased to announce today that the following policies are now in effect for 1986: One , BUYERS ' licences for squid, crab restricted LICENCES: Buyers' groundfish, pelagics, and shrimp will be to licenced processors.

Licences for salmon, lobster and other species normally L2738 June 5, 1986 Vol XL marketed in an .unprocessed state remain unrestricted. Also, a grandfather clause will be instituted to protect bona fide buyers with substantial industry investment. However, the licences of all non-processor/buyers will be thoroughly reviewed on an annual basis. Further to this action, industry has requested the introduction of a sunset clause to eventually reduce the number of non-processor/buyers and my department presently has this request under advisement. Two, PLANT EXPANSION: (

a) All expansion to existing processing plants will continue to require prior ministerial approval. (

b) Plant expansion will mean any addition to a plant that will increase throughput capacity. (

c) Expansions will only be considered for approval where any or all of the following criteria have been met: First, the use of new technology to better utilize the resource; secondly, the development of new products - including secondary processing - or the processing of underutilized species; thirdly, the installation of basic necessities to improve overall quality or viability. Proposed expansions not involving government funding or government facilities will be favoured.

Three, THE LICENCING BANK: The licencing bank concept will be discontinued and licences which are inactive for a two year period will be cancelled. The minister will have the option to reinstate the licence of a specific facility. However, no licence transfers will be made between plants. I guess the paper has gone around, has it? No. 47 R2738

Four, THE PROCESSING ASSIGNMENT LICENCE: An OF · A operator will be licenced to designated species in plant identified by number corresponding Department of Fisheries certification number. process a a specified a licence to the and Oceans Five, PROCESSING LICENCE CATEGORIES. To allow processors the opportunity to process a variety of species, my department will move towards issuing licences which give greater flexibility in this regard. At present, a groundfish licence allows a producer to by and process all groundfish species.

We i~tend to pursue the same concept with pelagic species rather than issuing licences for a particular species. This concept will be introduced over a period of time depending on individual plant current operations and requirements. Six, AS DEFINING MINIMUM A CONDITION FOR PROCESSING GROUNDFISH LICENCES: The · following condition will apply to the issuing of groundfish processing licences: "All species must be processed prior to export. For this purpose, processing is defined as (

a) filleting, (

b) splitting and salting and (

c) any other standardized process - acceptable to the department - required to accommodate final market specifications." Seven, APPLICATION Of FISH INSPECTION ACT FOR LOCAL RETAIL TRAADE The Department of Fisheries will further investigate the retail fish trade within the Province with a view to establishing appropriate regulations and guidelines to ensure acceptable and consistent levels of quality. L2739 June 5, 1986 Vol XL Eight, THE ISSUING OF PROCESSING PERMITS DURING THE GLUT FISHERY: Temporary subject conditions, glut to be permits wi 11, the following issued to allow companies to process cod in facilities that are normally not licenced for groundfish: (

a) salt fish process only; (

b) the facility must be certified under D.F.O. regulations for saltfish operations; (

c) the period of issuance will be for June and July with extensions only on the recommendation of the Cod Glut Trigger Committee. Additionally, Kr. Speaker, I wi 11 be requesting government approval to amend applicable regulations so that:

(1) Licencing periods will be based on a calendar year rather than on a fiscal year to comply with all other fisheries management systems and statistics.

(2) A set fee structure will be implemented for licensing as opposed to the present system where fees are based on estimated production. On average, there will be little or no change in the actual fee paid. Mr. Speaker, these measures are designed to provide a more streamlined and a more consistent licencing system. I would also like to inform this hon. House that government intends to maintain a restrictive policy on processing capacity. I should not have to remind anyone about the considerable over-expansion of the fishing industry after the 200 mile limit was declared in the late 1970's.

This over-capitalization and its associated heavy debt burden contributed largely to the severe No. 47 R2739

economic crisis from which we are only now emerging. That mistake, Mr. Speaker, must not be repeated. Since the number of plants is a major factor in the sharing of the resource, too many plants means too few fish for everyone. Also, . a processing sector that is overcapitalized, is not capable of paying the best wages to its employees, or of paying top prices to the fishermen who supply the resource. If we are to have a strong fishing industry we must, therefore, align processing capacity with available resources. As well, we must increase both productivity and efficiency. Mr.

Speaker, while it is necessary to maintain certain restrictions with regard to our licencing programme, we do want to ensure that all applicants receive fair and consistent treatment. For that reason, Mr. Speaker, I have established an appeals committee, removed from government, to which all applicants who are rejected by the licencing division can appeal. To date this committee has heard six appeals. In three of those cases the appeals were recommended for approval and licences were subsequently issued. Over the past ten years, Mr.

Speaker, we have learned that the fishery, like any other industry, must have the appropriate regulatory controls. Although it is desirable that such controls be developed jointly by both government and industry, it ls government's responsibility to see that they are enforced adequately, consistently, and fairly. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! L2740 June 5, 1986 Vol XL MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Twillingate. MR. W. CARTER: Mr.

Speaker, while I thank the minister for having given me a copy of his statement a half-hour prior to House time, I think this is the sort of paper that in fact does represent some far-reaching changes in the licencing policies of the Department of Fisheries as it relates to processors, the sort of paper that should have been, maybe, presented in the form of a White Paper by the minister well in advance of the dates on which the policies would come into effect. In fact, Mr.

Speaker, this is the sort of thing that maybe should have been referred to the Standing Committee on Fisheries to enable members on that committee to study the implications of this policy paper. So, for that reason, Mr. Speaker, I am not prepared at this time to commit the members of this side of the House to some of the policy changes recommended or at least, announced by the minister in this paper. We will be studying it over time, and afterwards, of course, making some comments on it. I notice, Mr.

Speaker, in the first page of the minister's statement, he talks about the ongoing review and the fact that it will be discussed with industry, and he goes on to say, 'Recently I discussed several proposed changes with both the processors and the Fishermen's Union,' -several changes. One of the questions I would like the minister to answer is, did he discuss all of these changes? the minister indicates he did? Mr. Speaker, I repeat what I said a moment ago, that the changes No. 47 R2740

recommended or at least stated in this paper would, to me, represent some far-reaching - changes with some very serious implications on the processing sector and, for that reason, I believe that we should have been given more notice than we have been in terms of being able to react properly to it. I would strongly suggest to the minister that before any further such recommendations or changes are made in the licencing policy of his department, that maybe a White Paper be prepared and presented to members of the House and to the people involved in the Province.

The minister, in the statement mentions the cancellation or at least a change in the buying licencing processes of his department. For example, fish buyers as we now know them, people who are non-processors,. under this new regulation will be phased out.

And while he does mention the fact that there is going to be a grandfather clause, I think, in the licencing process, it might well be, considering the fact that some' of these people do have very substantial investments in their operations - while maybe they are not involved in processing, there are certain costs and certain monies involved in setting up to become a bona fide buyer of fish in this Province - it might well be that the government should contemplate or consider compensation to some of these fish buyers.

It is not enough to just say that we are going to gradually phase them out with the grandfather clause and so on, and the sunset clause. Who knows what effect this policy statement will have on their operation even this year? L2741 June 5, 1986 Vol XL So, for that reason, if it can be shown that people are suffering financially or will be affected financially or will incur financial losses by virtue of this new policy, then certainly I think government has a responsibility to compensate those people. I am happy to see in the statement, Mr.

Speaker, that there is an Appeals Committee established, and having checked and got ten the names of that Committee I must say I have no quarrel with that committee or with the makeup of it; Mr. Hennessey, Mr. Cliff Russell, Mr. Gilbert lt:1kpen, Mary Lou Peters, secretary. These are people we have no quarrel with on this side of the House. They are all fine, reputable people. Certainly Mr. Russell and Mr. Hennessey and Mr. Inkpen - he, I think, was involved as the Executive Director of the Independent Fish Processers. I think he is retired now.

Certainly we would have no quarrel with the makeup of that Committee. Mr. Speaker, the fact remains that these are some far-reaching policy changes, far-reaching in terms of the processing sector in the Province, and, for that reason, while we do not disagree with most of them, we recognize the need to tidy things up and to get things back on an even keel, Mr. Speaker, need I remind the minister that sometimes governments are inclined to become too restrictive in terms of licencing and that is one thing I think the minister should watch in terms of policy changes within his department.

We will be studying this paper, Mr. Speaker, and going through it and considering how it will affect the processing sector, and no doubt we will be commenting on it to a greater extent some time in the No. 47 R2741

future. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. R. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Agricultural Development. MR. R. AYLWARD: Minister and of Rural, Northern Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Before I make my statement, as Minister of Agriculture, I must strongly object to the partisan use of the hogs of this Province such as in the picture that was laid on my desk by the hon. member for Port de Grave (Mr. Efford). It is a nice picture, a very nice picture of the pig. Mr.

Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to announce to this House a further advance in the policy of the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador as it pertains to the development of credit unions in this Province. The Credit Union Council of Newfoundland and Labrador was incorporated in 1977 and is the umbrella organization for all credit unions in the Province. The council has developed a long-term credit union development plan to assist in extending f inane ial services, through credit unions, to rural and remote areas of the Province.

The council, through the project funding programme of the Rural Development Subsidiary Agreement II, received $100,000 in 1985 to establish a credit union development fund. I am pleased to announce that on May 16, 1986 a further amount of L2742 June 5, 1986 Vol XL $120,000 was approved for this development fund. It is designed to be a revolving fund to help defray the initial start-up costs of new and emerging credit unions. Three rural credit unions are now successfully availing of th~ development fund and four new rural credit unions will come on stream this year with the invaluable assistance of this fund.

The Co-operative . Development Division came to my department in 1980 and since then Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development has shown a strong commitment to co-operative and credit union development in this Province, especially in rural areas . My announcement today, of the $120,000 grant to the Credit Union Council of Newfoundland, is a prime example of government's support of locally owned and controlled financial institutions in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Leader of the Mr.

Speaker, we are pleased to see this statement by the minister. I want to thank him for giving me a copy beforehand. We support this assistance to the credit unions of the Province. These credit unions are providing an important service in various parts of the Province. I think, for example, of the district of Eagle River where there was a bank pulled out from the Straits area, a couple of years ago, and the local residents No. 47 R2742

were deprived of any banking services. At that point in time, they decided to set up a credit union. I understand that it has apparently been successful to date and I would hope that it would continue to be, and they now have local banking services provided to that part of the Province which would otherwise not have been available. Credit unions have been with us for a long time and perhaps at times we forget just how valuable and important they are because they have been around. They are not a new, innovative concept. I think they may be overlooked from time to time in the important work that they are doing.

So I am pleased to see that the minister's department is recognizing the contributions made by credit unions to our Province and I hope we will see continued attention paid to these very valuable institutions which see that valuable services are provided in many parts of this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: At this stage I would like to welcome to the visitors gallery twenty Grade IX students from St. Anne's Academy, Dunville, with their teacher, Doris Smith. SOME HON. MEMBERS: hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Before calling Oral Questions there are a number of matters that I will try and deal with today. One was a point of privilege raised by the hon. member for Fortune - Hermitage (Mr. Simmons) L2743 June 5, 1986 Vol XL in connection with remarks made by the hon. member for Placentia (Mr. Patterson). I must rule that there was no prima facie case of breach of privilege. The second one was a further point of privilege raised by the hon. member for Fortune - Hermitage.

I have gone through it very carefully and, as far as I can see, he took the opportunity of getting up and making certain statements, but there was certainly no question of his privileges being breached. The final one was a point of order . raised by the bon. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry). ·I must rule that there was no point of order but a difference of opinion between two hon. members. Oral Questions MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Port de Grave. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. EFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Premier.

I have here in front of me a couple of papers and one is the editorial from today's Evening Telegram, "Jobs for the faithful", and I just want to quote the last line, "It's not what you know, it's who you know." And this is a result of the confession made public on TV by the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Young) just recently, and I find it very disgraceful. But I would like to ask the Premier, Mr. Speaker, if he would undertake to No. 47 R2743

investigate the Minister of .Public Works • actions in appointments to jobs for a list of people that I hold here in my hand, Mr. Speaker, and ~specially in light of what he said yesterday, that if we give him some examples and he would look into it. I have here, Mr.

Speaker, a list of names that I do not wish to make public but if the Premier would assure the House that some time before the house closes he would take this list of names and undertake to investigate if the Minister of Public Works gave these people jobs as political buddies or if they were given on their merits, or in what way did these people receive the jobs. If the Premier would guarantee us that he will report back after investigating the actions of the Minister of Public Works, I will hand over, Mr. Speaker, this list of names to him. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER PBCKFORD: Mr. Speaker, this is getting to be a bit foolish. I suppose if we want to we could go back and investigate how the Executive Assistant to the Manager of the Marystown Shipyard was hired a few years ago when the Leader of the Opposition (Mr . Barry) was Minister of Development, and whether a competition was held, or how various other matters were handled by the member for Twillingate (Mr. W. Carter) when he was the Minister of Fisheries. I mean how far do you want to take this idea? I do not know.

As I . said to the Lea~er of the Opposition and other members opposite yesterday about permanent L2744 June 5, 1986 Vol XL employment as opposed to temporary employment·, the case I just spoke of, down in the Marystown Shipyard when the Leader of t'he Opposition was Minister of Development, involved a permanent position which was filled without competition, over which . he had some influence apparently, and insisted upon a certain person being hired down there . without competition.

On permanent employees in the public service, which is 99 per cent or 99.5 per cent of the public service, it is done through the Public Service Commission and it is done totally aboveboard . When it comes to temporary employment, there is employment for two or thr-ee weeks or four or five weeks or five or six weeks, the department concerned hires people whom they consider to be competent, whom they consider to have experience, whose performance they consider - all factors are considered in it. I know of no instance where those factors have not come to play in it.

So I am not going to get into a game of names here, Mr. Speaker, with the member for Port de Grave. All I can say to the member for Port 'de Grave is that the hiring of temporary employees by this government is done according to all of the factors which normally go into the hiring of anybody for any position. As it relates to permanent employees, ·. that is done completely by the Public Service Commission anyway. MR. EFFORD: A supplementar-y, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the member for Port de Grave. MR. EFFORD: No. 47 R2744

Mr . Speaker, I can assure the Premier of this Province that a lot of the names on the paper have been there for a number of years. If the Premier would like me to produce five times the quantity that is on that paper . I will certainly do that. Mr. Speaker, I have also here in my hand a document that I will table in this House. It was cut out of a recent local paper and read, 'Democracy, of the people, for the people, by the people' - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The question, please! MR. EFFORD: The Minister of Public Works and Services was quoted as saying, 'According to Mr.

Young, the Town of Upper Island Cove need not expect any consideration from him in the future because of the fact that the majority of people in the town voted against him in the last provincial election.' Will the Premier undertake to investigate to see if this is an accurate statement and was made by the Minister of Public Works and Services? Does he agree with this type of statement? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD : Mr. Speaker, tell the hon. the member fo~ Port de Grave not to be so foolish. MR. EFFORD : A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. the member for Port de Grave. L2745 June 5, 1986 Vol XL MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, this is an ad taken out in the paper by the . Minister of Public Works and Services and where it states, 'By a means of p~eventing pat~onage and a deterrent to Conflict of Interest amongst ministers. ' Now, · the minister has clearly stated and clearly confessed to using his position to get jobs. Will the Premier explain to the people of this Province that he either agrees with what the Minister of Public Works and Services is doing publicly or that he does not agree with it? MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, the member for Port de Grave should ask his leader how he hired people at the Marystown Shipyard a few years ago. People in glass houses should not throw stones. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Leader of the Mr.

Speaker, I ask the Premier when he is standing in this House if he is prepared to tell the entire t~uth and acknowledge that the ~eference which is made to the person at the Marystown Shipyard was in fact an executive assistant to a retiring minister who was entitled to continued employment with government? ·So I suggest that the Premier go back to his files and keep looking if that is the only one that he find. SOME HON. MEMBERS: No. 47 R2745

Hear ·, hear! MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, did I understand the Premier correctly yesterday and again today to say that while he is prepared to accept political patronage and corrupt practices · in the hiring of temporary employees, that interference by ministers in the hiring practices of the Public Service Commission · would be treated more seriously by him? Is that what the Premier is saying? MR. SP EAK ER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: No, Mr. Speaker.

In answer to the Leader of the Opposition, who can squirm all he likes over there and split hairs, if it involved a former executive assistant, jobs are usually found within the departments not in an agency where the minister responsible insited to the manager of the Shipyard that he be hired without competition. MR. BARRY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Opposition. MR. BARRY: the The Premier did question. There was made - PREMIER PECI<FORD: Leader of the not answer my representation I did not answer your question. MR. BARRY: No, Mr. Speaker.

Well, then, does the Premier stand by his statement yesterday when he said, 'As it relates to permanent employment, as I have said that is done by the Public Service Commission L2746 June 5, 1986 Vol XL completely separate from government altogether.' Does he stand by that? And will he treat seriously interference by ministers with the Public Service Commission? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECI<FORD: Mr.

Speaker, I will answer that when the Leader of the Opposition answers this: Did he come to me back when he was a minister and try to insist that number two on a list get a job because he was a friend of the hon. member? MR. BAIRD: That shut him up. SOME HON. MEMBERS: No more questions! questions! MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: No The hon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: more Mr. Speaker, the Premier stated in this House yesterday that when it came to permanent employees, the Public Service Commission is master of its own fate.

I would ask the Minister of Public Works would he confirm whether there was competition for four jobs at the Kelligrews Marine Centre for which there were some fifty to sixty applications? And did that competition include four temporary employees who had been previously employed by the minister himself? MR. SPE AKER: The hon. the Minister of Public No . 47 R2746

Works. MR. YOUNG: No, Mr. Speaker. MR. TULK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, member for Fogo. MR. TULK: the bon. the I would ask the minister is it a fact that there were two members of the Department of Public Works sitting on the Selection Committee of the Public Service Commission for that competition? And is it also correct that the minister refused to accept the recommendations .of the Selection Committee because the four temporary employees that he wanted employed as permanent employees were not employed? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Public Works. MR. YOUNG: No, Mr.

Speaker. gentleman does not know talking about. MR. TULK: The bon. what he is A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, member for Fogo. MR. TULK: the bon. the Would he confirm for this House whether or not it is correct that he was in such a rage that the four people had not been employed permanently, had not been selected by the Selection Committee, that he circulated a memo saying that those two public employees were never again to sit on a public L2747 June 5, 1986 Vol XL Selection Committee. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Public Works and Services. MR. YOUNG: . No, Mr. Speaker. MR.

FUREY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for St. Barbe. MR. FUREY: Will the Minister of Public Works and Services confirm that he was in such a rage after receiving these recommendations concerning the Kelligrews Marine Center, which did not include his four temporary appointments for those permanent jobs, that he issued a memorandum barring two of his own departmental civil servants from ever sitting on a Public Service Selection Commission again? Was there a memo circulated from the minister respecting this matter? MR. YOUNG: I have already answered question, Mr. Speaker. MR.

FUREY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the bon. member for St. Barbe. MR. FUREY: that the Did the minister cancel, nullify or in any way interfere with the recommendations of the Public Service Commission for four jobs at the Kelligrews Marine Center? Did the minister interfere in any way whatsoever? MR. PATTERSON: Sit down, boy! You were a nice No. 47 R2747

guy but now you are getting nasty like your leader. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Public Works and Services. MR. YOUNG: . No, Mr. Speaker. MR. K. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Stephenville. MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Public Works and Services. It is sad to realize that in Newfoundland, with the youth unemployment rate the highest across the country, every one of them is not given the same opportunity to compete for the few thousand jobs that are available. That is the

preamble but it is not my

preamble but the

preamble of The Evening Telegram, and I could not have put it better .myself. I want to ask the Minister of Public Works and Services if he does not acknowledge that this is a great injustice to young people in this Province who are trying to find a job? Will he not acknowledge that? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Public Works and Services. MR. YOUNG: No, I am not acknowledging anything, Mr. Speaker. The han. member does not know what he is talking about. MR. BARRY: What a shame! What a shame! L2748 June 5, 1986 Vol XL MR. K. AYLWARD: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: A supplementary, the bon. member for Stephenville. MR. K. AYLWARD: the If he will not acknowledge that, will he consider these jobs that he has at his whim being considered by the Canada Manpower Center for students around this ·Island? Would he consider sending them to the Center as a better way to allocate jobs fairer throughout the Province? Would he consider that maybe as a possibility to clean up his act? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Public Works. MR. YOUNG: In all probability, Mr. Speaker, I will consider the letter I had from the bon. member and the letter I had from Mr.

Glen Tobin looking for a job - not Glen Tobin. What is the name of the fellow? MR. BAIRD: Brian Tobin. MR. YOUNG: Brian Tobin, looking for a job for a fellow in stephenville. I will try to do all I can for the han. member's constituents. MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Menihek. MR. FENWICK: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Minister of Public Works. In the defence - No. 47 R2748

MR. TOBIN: Did you have a caucus first? MR. PEACH: You want to be an official party now, do you? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. FENWICK: My question is for the Minister of Public Works, Mr. Speaker. It has to do with his defence of the hiring that has been going on of residents of his district for his department. His argument has been that permanent positions are not filled that way but filled by the Public Service Commission, but the temporary ones are filled that way. I would like the minister to explain to us what are the durations of these jobs and what kinds of jobs are we talking about?

Are they a couple of weeks duration? Are we talking a couple of years? Could you give us an indication of what kind of jobs you are filling in this manner? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Public Works. MR. YOUNG: In most cases, Mr. Speaker, they are from four to six weeks. MR. FENWICK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the bon. the member for Menihek. MR. FENWICK: ~hat is curious. Mr. Speaker.

My information is that the Minister of Public Works is actually using the system in order to qualify people for unemployment insurance L2749 June 5, 1986 Vol XL by hiring them for ten weeks, laying them off and then hiring others. Could the minister confirm or deny that he is using that as a means of qualifying some of the constituents from his district for unemployment insurance? · MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Public Works. MR. YOUNG: No, Mr. Speaker. MR. FENWICK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the bon. the member for Menihek. MR.

FENWICK: On the same topic, the Premier has indicated that 95 or 96 per cent of the positions are permanent and only 3 or 4 per cent are temporary. Could he explain to me why, then, 1300 positions in the General Service bargaining unit, which is about 3, 000 to 4, 000 as nea:r as I can make out, are now temporary and contractual positions, which means you are talking about 25 per cent are in the range that can be done that way?

Would you please explain to me in that particular example we have obviously a much higher percentage and why last Fall, when I put a question on the Order Paper asking all the ministers to give us a list of their temporary employees, only one particular department did and the other twenty-one did not? Could you explain that for me? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: No. 47 R2749

Mr. Speaker, I have some of the information, but each bargaining unit would differ, and the nature of the work that they have to do so, therefore, some bargaining units might be more susceptible for having temporary employment than others. It is like the departments. For example, the Department of Forestry. There is perhaps a higher demand for temporary work in that department. Mines and Energy is a really good example. The Department of Mines has a lot of temporary employment during the Summer, geophysicists, geologists and so on when they are going out to do their field work.

So it will vary from bargaining unit to bargaining unit or from department to department, and that is the reason for it. There is a need. For example, in the Summertime in the Department of Education, there is a demand for putting out school books and so on to the various schools around the Province. In some other departments there may not be a demand because of the nature of the work that that department does. So that is the reason for it. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Public Works whether there was a Selection Board established to hire individuals for a Marine Service Centre, which passed recommendations in to the minister. whereupon the minister cancelled the competition? L2750 June 5, 1986 Vol XL MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Public Works. MR. YOUNG: Yes, Mr . Speaker. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Leader of the Would the minister confirm whether this competition was to hire permanent employees? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Public Works. MR. YOUNG: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Would the minister confirm whether he issued a memorandum, following receipt of the recommendations of this Selection Board, to the effect that the representatives of his department who had sat on the board should never again be allowed to sit on a Selection Board? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Public Works. MR. YOUNG: Yes and no, Mr. Speaker. No. 47 R2750

MR. TULK: What do you mean, 'yes and no'? MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Opposition. MR. BARRY: the Leader of the Would the minister explain to this House what he means by 'yes' and what he means by 'no'? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Public Works. MR. YOUNG: I meant, Mr. Speaker, two words, yes and no: MR. TULK: You are stonewalling. SOME HOM. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. BARRY: Will the minister answer the question? Let us break it down. First of all did the minister issue a memorandum regarding who should or should not sit on future Selection Boards? MR.

SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Public Works. MR. YOUNG: No, Mr. Speaker. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Will the minister explain to this L2751 June 5, 1986 Vol XL House why he cancelled a competition when recommendations . were received from the board? Will he confirm it was because they did not select the individuals whom the minister wanted put in those permanent positions? SOME HOM. MEMBERS: Hear, bear! MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Public Works. MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, that is a twofold, threefold, fourfold question. MR. BARRY: Answer it.

Yes, yes, yes, no. Or no, no, no, yes . Or no, yes, yes, no. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, I am trying to answer the bon. the Leader of the Opposition's question. I said yes I cancelled a competition· to fill permanent positions at the MED centre. I answered that. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Opposition. MR. BARRY: the Leader of the Was this competition going through the Public Service Commission? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Public Works. MR. YOUNG: No, Mr. Speaker, that is why it No. 47 R2751

was cancelled. MR. TULK: So it was fot" permanent jobs! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Heat", heat"! MR. BARRY: Mt". Speaket". MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Opposition. MR. BARRY: the Leadet" of the Mt". Speaket", did the mini stet" authot"ize the holding of this competition in the fit"st place? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Ministet" of Public Wot"ks. MR. YOUNG: No, Mr. Speaker. MR . BARRY: Be vet"y cat"eful 'Haig. ' careful. MR. YOUNG: Be very Nevet" mind 'Haig'. I did not authot"ize this competition and that is why it was cancelled, Mt". Speaker. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPF.AKER: The han. the Leader of Opposition. MR.

BARRY: the Will the minister confirm whether there has been a subsequent competition to fill these jobs? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Public Works. L2752 June 5, 1986 Vol XL MR. YOUNG: No, Mr. Speaket", but the process in the system is that the competitions will be done by the Public Service Commission. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, heat"! MR. BARRY: Mt". Speaket". MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR.

BARRY: Will the minister indicate whether thet"e were tempot"at"y employees selected by the ministet" in those positions and that those tempot"at"y employees continued since the boat"d was initially set up? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Ministet" of Public Wot"ks. MR. YOUNG: There again, Mr. Speaker, the answet" is yes and no. Be more specific about your question and I will give you an answer. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of Opposition. MR. BARRY: the Wet"e thet"e temporary employees in these positions for which the competition was being held? MR.

SP EAKER: The hon. the Minister of Public Works and Services .. MR. YOUNG: Yes, Mr. Speaker. No. 47 R2752

MR. BARRY: Were these temporary employees recommended by the minister and hired as a result of the minister's influence? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Public Works and Services. MR. YOUNG: No, Mr. Speaker. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Have these temporary employees continued in those positions since the competition was cancelled? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Public Works and Services. MR. YOUNG: Yes, Mr. Speaker, until permanent appointed by the Commission. and they will be employees are Public Service MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The bon. the Leader of Opposition. MR. BARRY: Will the long ago called for? MR. SIMMS: minister indicate the competition Put it on the Order Paper. MR. BARRY: No. the how was L2753 June 5, 1986 Vol XL MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Public Works and Services. -.MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, I could not say. I would not like to mislead the House. Mr. Speaker, I could not say. Put it on the Order Paper and I will get the answer for you. MR. BARRY: I thank the minister for that very clear statement. Let us have a little shot. Would the minister indicate - MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. the member for Menihek; MR. FENWICK: I am sorry, 'Leo.' I will give it back to you in a minute. I would ask the Minister of Public Works have you been informed by your colleagues in the House here to stop saying anything because your stupid comments are putting them so far in a hole that you cannot possibly rise against? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Public Works and Services .. MR. YOUNG: I presume, Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman asked me a question and I could not hear it. Did the hon. gentleman ask me a question? MR.

MATTHEWS: He does not have intelligence enough to ask a question. MR. YOUNG: It is too bad, Mr. Speaker. I would like to be able to answer No. 47 R2753

the · bon. gentleman. If it is parliamentary, I would like to be given the definition of a mainlander. It would be a low blow. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Leader of Opposition. HR. BARRY: the Would the minister indicate whether that competition was called this year, last year or the year previously? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Public Works and Services. HR. YOUNG: Now, Mr. Speaker, I could not say. HR. BARRY: You do not know. MR. YOUNG: It could have been in December when it was called or it could be in January when it was called. But I can tell you, Mr.

Speaker, that when I found out about the competition and . the recommendations made by the officials in my department, I said, 'No, no boys. • This is a thing that should go to the Public Service Commission. • And that is what I did, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MATTHEWS: You walked into that one, did you not? PREMIER PECKFORD: He sure did. L2754 June 5, 1986 Vol XL MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Leader of Opposition. MR. BARRY: the Did the minister request that this be immediately referred to the Public Service Commission?

Did the minister request immediately upon receiving the recommendations that it be referred to the Public Service Commission? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Public Works and Services. MR. YOUNG: I do not know if it was immediately, Mr. Speaker. Knowing how the bon. gentleman was acting, and knowing the accusations he was making about me about political appointments, I said these jobs are to be filled through the Public Service Commission and put them into process, and that is where it is to now, Mr. Speaker, in the pC'ocess. MR. BARRY: Since yesterday. MR. YOUNG: N'ot since yesteC'day.

I know you do not know one day from the other, my boy. Mr. Speaker, it is being done by the Public Service Commission. Now I do not know how long it takes foC' the process to be done. They are permanent positions and they will be filled by the Public Service Commission. That is all I can say, Mr. Speaker. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Leader of the No. 47 R2754

Opposition. MR. BARRY: If I tell the minister that the Public Service Commission was contacted this morning and knows nothing about any such competition, could the minister explain that? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Public Works and Services. MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, I do not know. know the bon. the Leader of Opposition's flunkey phoned Public Service Commission. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. YOUNG: I do the the Mr. Speaker, I can tell the Leader of the Opposition this that if it is not there it is not my fault.

The order was issued that this go through the Public Service Commission and I cannot do no more than that. If I did more I would be accused of interfering with the Public Service Commission. The person the han. gentleman's flunkey phoned this morning probably did not know anything about it. It could be further down the line. Probably it is in the system to be called. I do not know, Mr. Speaker. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: THe han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Did the minister issue these instructions to his officials verbally or in writing? - L2755 June 5, 1986 Vol XL MR.

PATTERSON: No, on a tape. He put them on a tape for them. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Public Works and Services. MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, I do not know, but I guess, Mr. Speaker, I could find out. I will get up under oath because I am not allowed to lie to the House, Mr. Speaker. I would not dare do that. Mr. Speaker, if the bon. gentleman will give me time . I am sure he wi 11 find the date that Haig Young wrote • Go to PSC.' I can tell the bon. gentleman where he is going. MR. BAIRD: And he will not need an overcoat. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR.

BARRY: Would the Premier indicate whether he will investigate the evasive answers given by the minister in the course of his responses today? Will the Premier clearly, without attempting to avoid answering the question as he did yesterday, indicate is this what he got into politics for? Is he satisfied with the minister's approach to hiring temporary employees or permanent employees on the basis of political patronage? Does he support that? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: No. 47 R2755

Mr. Speaker, there are a lot of allegations there about why I got involved in politics or why I did not get involved in politics and all the rest of it. Could the Leader of the Opposition answer this question? Did he come to me a number of years ago - MR. BARRY: That has nothing to do with this. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Answer the question. PREMIER PECKFORD: ·It does because it is vile hypocrisy that the Leader of the Opposition is propagating upon the people of Newfoundland. Did the Leader of the Opposition not come to me and try to get a permanent person put in? MR. BARRY: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! A point or order, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: The Premier knows the rules, Mr. Speaker. 'Hypocrisy' is against the rules of this House. I let him get away with it yesterday. I ask that you order that he withdraw it today. PREMIER PECKFORD: To that point of order. Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: If 'hypocrisy' is out of order, I will withdraw automatically. I will not allow that to go ahead. L2756 June 5, 1986 Vol XL So if that is his point of order, fine. MR. SPEAKER: That has been withdrawn. MR. BARRY: Mr.

Speaker, will the Premier answer the question as to whether he supports the principle of hiring young men and women, who may never have voted, on the basis of whether their parents supported the Minister of Public Works or did not support him? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, number one, temporary people are hired in the Department of Public Works, and in all departments, based upon experience MR. BARRY: No so! PREMIER PECKFORD: based upon merit, based upon performance. SOME HON. MEMBERS: No! No! PREMIER PECKFORD: There is a range or criteria used.

The Leader of the Opposition came to me when he was a minister about a permanent position and asked to put number two over number one. Mr. Speaker. That is what the Leader of the Opposition did. He tried to use his influence on me about a position in the Public Service which was permanent. I say people in glass houses should not throw stones. MR. BARRY: Will the Premier, Mr. Speaker, No. 47 R2756

.X: answeL the question? MR. SPEAKER: OLdeL, please! MR. BARRY: AnsweL the question. have the courage to question. MR. SPEAKER: OLdeL, please! ·MR. BARRY: You aLe a cowaLd. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: OLdeL, please! MR. YOUNG: You do not answeL that A point of OLdeL, ML. Speaker .. MR. SPEAKER: A point of OLdeL, the bon. the MinisteL of Public Works. MR. YOUNG: ML. SpeakeL, the point of OLdeL I LOSe on is not this one, but I think the LeadeL of the Opposition should be made to withdLaw the WOLd 'cowaLd,' that is foL suLe, befoLe I start my point of ordeL, KL. SpeakeL. MR. BARRY: KL.

SpeakeL, I Honour's time. will save Your I will withdLaw 'cowaLd' and say that the PLemieL has no courage. He does not have the couLage to answer the question. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Public WaLks. MR. YOUNG: Thank you, Mr. SpeakeL. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition did not like the way I answered his L2757 June 5, 1986 - Vol XL questions but, Mr. SpeakeL, I answeLed the question as the question·was asked. They weLe all out, Mr. SpeakeL. HansaLd will show they did not know what they weLe talking about when they got up asking questions. MR. TULK: What is your point of oLder? MR. YOUNG: ML.

SpeakeL, my point of oLder is that the LeadeL of the Opposition gave the impression that the four temporaLy employees out in the MED CentLe aLe fLom my district. They aLe not. I do not know what district they aLe fLam. Their names weLe submitted to me and I okayed it, and that was it. I do not know who they are OL where they come fLom, and I do not caLe, Mr. SpeakeL. They aLe doing a good job. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of ordeL, the bon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR.

BARRY: We now have the ministeL stating that he okayed the hiring when he earlieL told this House that they weLe not hired on the basis of his influence. He is now saying that he appLoved the hiring. Now, Mr. Speaker, the minister cannot have it both ways. MR. YOUNG: What are you going on about? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. BARRY: Do you mind if I Lespond to your point of order? No. 47 R2757

Maybe the minister would explain to this House why he turned down eight requests from the press for interviews yesterday? PREMIER PECKFORD: It is none of your - MR. TULK: None of your what? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. BARRY: Oh, I am sorry. I take it back. The Premier has given instructions for the minister not to go to the press. I am sorry. I take that back. I do not want to embarrass the minister. I apologize. The minister has been instructed by the Premier not to respond to eight requests by the press for interviews. So I am sorry about that. I am sorry that he is being muffled, Mr. Speaker.

To that point of order, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Public Works has now, by his own mouth," indicated that he has not been truthful in his answers to the questions that were put to him today. I ask the Premier to do what should be done, Mr. Speaker. MR. YOUNG: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Further to that point of order, the hon. the Minister of Public Works. MR. YOUNG: I said that I approved the people to go into the MED Centre Mr. Speaker. They said, "Minister, we want four names of four people to go in," and I approved. I said, "Go ahead.

Hire four people L2758 June 5, 1986 Vol XL temporary until we go to the Public Service Commission. •• That was when the building was being readied to be opened. I do not know who they were. I presume every minister here okays a position, and that is what I did. I okayed authorization. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I have heard enough on that point of order to rule there is no point of order. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I have a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the bon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: This is a fairly serious point of order.

The hon. gentleman said that the hon. the Minister of Public Works and Services had not been truthful. I refer to Beauchesne, page 110. "It is not in order, it is unparliamentary to say a matter is untrue, to say an untrue statement. Debates, the House of Commons, 1961, '62, '6 7 "and on and on. "Not the complete truth June 19, 1964." Mr. Speaker, gentleman minister we have seen twist what has said. the the The hon. hon. hon. minister has said, and he has said quite clearly that nobody was hired with his influence, and the hon. member tries to twist that around in his point of order.

We can accept twisting from the hon. gentleman, but we cannot accept, Mr. Speaker, in this House that a minister or any member is accused of saying something is untrue. The hon. gentleman has to withdraw that statement and has to be directed to withdraw it. No. 47 R2758

MR. TULK: To that point Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To that pont of member for Fogo. MR. TULK: of order, Mr. order, the bon. Mr. Speaker, the truth of the matter is, the bon. gentleman can do all he likes to try and cover up for what the minister has confessed. At one point this aftet"noon the Minister of Public Works and Services stood in this House and said he did not know the people who were hired, yet, in the next breath, he looked at us and said he okayed their appointments.

The truth of the matter is the Minister of Public Works and Services has gone on public television in this Province and confessed to using his office for political patronage, and the truth of the matter is the Premier of this Province does not have the courage to put an investigation in place to see whether he has misused his office or not.

The President of the Council can stand up all he wants and use up the time of Question Period with points of order that are not really points of order, trying to cover up for the bon. gentleman, but the truth of the matter is, the truth is out on the bon. gentleman regardless of whether the Premier or anybody else on that side likes it or not. He has made a public confession. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I did hear reference to 'untruth' and I would ask the bon. the Leader of the Oppositin to withdraw it. MR. BARRY: L2759 June 5, 1986 Vol XL Mr.

Speaker, I will withdraw the word 'untruth' and substitute that the facts as related by the minister in his second statement are completely contradictory to the facts as stated . in his first statement. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The bon. member has withdrawn that statement. MR. BARRY: A point of order, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Mr.

Speaker, we have had an admission from the Minister of Public Works and Services today that he has had a communication from the Public Service Commission to inform the minister that 'my - he called him flunky - executive assistant' - MR. MATTHEWS: It is the same thing. MR. TULK: He does not sit in the gallery and grin. MR. BARRY: Well, there are a lot more of them over there, are there not? There are a few of them. Wave 'Alvin'. Give us a wave up here. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. MATTHEWS: How small can you be? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! No. 41 R2759

MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Public Works has confi~ed for this House that he has a pipeline out of the Public Service Commission which info~ed him with .respect to a communication made by my executive assistant to the Public Service Commission making an enquiry with respect to a serious matter. The only way, Mr. Speaker, that the minister could have known that my executive assistant contacted the Public Service Commission was for an official of the Public Service Commission to communicate that information to the minister. That call was only made, Mr. Speaker, within two hours of this House sitting.

Less than that. It was between two o'clock and two-thirty. By the time the minister came into this House, at three o'clock, the communication had gone from the Public Service Commission to the minister to inform him with respect to this. DR. COLLI NS: Sure that is okay. MR. BARRY: No, no, no. Mr. Speaker, in light of the fact that the Premier has been saying that the Public Service Commission - he said it yesterday - is supposed to be separate and independent of government, will the Premier indicate how this is consistent with that independence from government? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

MARSHALL: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the bon. L2760 June 5, 1986 Vol XL the President of the Council. .MR. MARSHALL: We have seen quite an exhibition. The hon. gentleman wants to get hot under the collar and, in effect, I think the bon. gentleman has been getting hotter under the collar ever since those polls have come out to show that he has sunk so low. One of the reasons he has sunk so low is the tactic he is trying to use today. Mr. Speaker, that is absolutely no point of order.

First of all, the bon. gentleman is giving his opinions of what the bon. gentleman's response was. That is the first point. The second p.oint is, when a minister is responsible for a department, a division, a commission, I would think it would be very, very appropriate at any given time for a pe~anent employee of the department, a commission or a Crown corporation, or what have you, to be in dialogue with the minister responsible and to tell the minister responsible what has occurred during the day, during the week or during the month.

Now, the hon. gentleman is making a point of order that is not a valid one, it is a silly one, it has no substance at all and it is a stupid point of order. In fact, it is not a point of order. The fact of the matter is, the Public Service Commission in this Province is an independent Public Service Commission, and it has operated that way since 1972 or 19 7 4 , when it was appointed .

The Minister of Public Works and Services or any minister has never interfered with its proceedings and it is operating very well, contrary to the type of appointments in the civil service when the hon. gentlemen were in No. 47 R2760

the only way anyone government; could get an appointment, a promotion, an increase in salary and everything else was to be a card-carrying member of -the Liberal party. So, Mr. about Speaker, let us be clear that. What the hon. gentl~man is doing is raising a point of order which is not a point of order. He is exercised, he is angry, and the only thing I will say is he had no difficulty in ident-ifying who was a flunky. MR. BAKER: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Further to that point of order, the hon. the member for Gander. MR. BAKER: Mr.

Speaker, further to that point of order I would simply like to p9int out that · the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) has now said that the Public Service Commission is supposed to be apolitical, is supposed to be at arms length and not dabble in the ongoing politics of government and so on. Now, if immediately an enquiry goes to the Public Service Commission the minister is contacted right away, that seems to me to indicate a very close relationship with the Public Service Commission and, in fact, would raise the suspicion in my mind, Mr.

Speaker, that that connection is a lot closer than members opposite have been willing to admit. The thought goes through my mind, Mr. Speaker, how many other communications go to the minister with regards to job applications that come through that system? MR. YOUNG: L2761 June 5, 1986 Vol XL Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Public Works and Services. MR. YOUNG: Once again, the han. the members of the Opposition are all wet. Mr. Speaker, I have not made a phone call or received a phone call from the Public Service Commiss-ion for over a month.

The last correspondence I had was from the Chairman of the Public Service Commission asking me for authorization to go on vacation. Now, Mr. Speaker, that is all the correspondence I have had. I did not say that I had a call. No way will Hansard show that I said I had a call from the Public Service Commission. MR. MATTHEWS: They have accused you, though. MR. YOUNG: and accused me, getting a phone at the Public But they got up Mr. Speaker, of call from some Service Commission. MR. BARRY: Your executive assistant took the call. .MR. YOUNG: No, my executive assistant did not take the call, Mr. Speaker.

How will that suit you? I got the information in this building, and not even in my own department. It was probably from one of your Liberal friends on that side. Do you know what I mean? MR. BARRY: Your word will not make that right. MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, the bon. the Leader No. 47 R2761

of the Opposition wanted his office soundpr-oofed and T think I will have to do it, because ther-e ar-e lots of leaks down ther-e. SOME HON. MEMB ERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Or-der-, please! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! KR. SP EAKER: Or-der-, please! Or-der-, please! I must r-ule that ther-e is no point of or-der-. Notices of Motion DR. COLLINS: Mr-. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr-.

Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow move that the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole on Supply to consider certain resolutions for the granting of supplementary supply to Her Majesty. MR. OTTENHEIMER: That is last year's, is it? DR. COLL IN S: Yes. 000 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, Oh! MR. MARSHALL: L2762 June 5, 1986 Vol XL Mr. Speaker, I cannot hear. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, a point of or-der. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. MR. OTTENHEIMER: A point of order. MR. TULK: My friend for Stephenville in the hubbub that is going - DR . COLLINS: There is a point of order here. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: There is a point of order. MR. TULK: A point of order that is what I am on. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Fogo. I am on a point of order. MR. DAWE: You were on your feet by you did not say anything. MR. TULK: Yes, I did. I said, 'A point of or-der, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. member for Fogo. AN HON. MEMBER: That is typical. MR. FLIGHT: What? What? MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I draw your attention to the comment of the hon. gentleman. When he used the phrase 'typical', he was obviously No. 47 R2762

referring to the Speaker. The truth of the matter is, I did rise on a point of order. I wanted to point out that in the din that is going on over. there, the yapping that is going on over there my friend from Stephenville did not hear Your Honour call Petitions and I wonder if the House would revert to Petitions to allow him to present his Petition. SOME HON. MEMBERS: No. MR. TULK: No? MR. MATTHEWS: If he is asleep, that is tough. MR. FLIGHT: He is not asleep, the Speaker did not call it. MR. SPEAKER: I am sorry, I missed the hon. member. MR. TULK: That is all right. another day. MR. MARSHALL: There is Mr.

Speaker, if there was a bit of noise in the House, I think we can give way to the hon. gentleman to present a petition. But the member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder) was on his feet first in the proceedings. He did hear. It is who Your Honour wants to recognize. I think we should hear both petitions, to tell you the truth. MR. TULK: To that point of order, Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the hon . the member for Fogo. L2763 June 5, 1986 Vol XL MR. TULK: No, no. The Speaker had called Orders of the Day and that was my point of order. Of course the Government House Leader (Mr.

Marshall) is doi.ng the right thing and I am glad to see that he has brought his colleagues under control over there. Sure, go ahead and have the petitions presented. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: The bon. gentleman should exercise a little bit or a degree more of control and maturity' so we can hear from the member for Port au Port. MR. SPEAKER: Which hon. member would like to speak first? The hon. the member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: Mr.

Speaker, just before I introduce my petition, I would just like to say that I was trying to get on my feet but I could not hear what was going on; I could not hear Mr. Speaker because of members on the other side. When I tried to regain my feet, the hon. barbarian from Fogo was on his. MR. TULK: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the bon. the member for Fogo. MR. SIMMS: That is not unparliamentary. No. 47 R2763

MR. TULK: Sure I do not care whether it is parliamentary or not if it comes from that bon. gentleman. I wonder if we could have him speak to .the petition. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to present this petition. The petition has 904 signatures on it. As well as the 904 signatures, there are 34 supporting letters with .this petition. As well, Mr. Speaker, there is a brief with the petition and it is in French and English. The petition, Mr.

Speaker, is presented by the Federation Des Francophones of Newfoundland and Labrador, which is comprised of Les Terre-Neuviens Francais of Cap-St-Georges, !'Heritage de 1' Ile Rouge a La Grand' Terre, L'Order du Bon Temps in Stephenville, and La Terre-Neuviens francais, l'Anse-a-Canards; in Port au Port. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, as I said before, there are 904 signatures and most of those signatures are from French speaking individuals in the district.

The prayer of the petition reads this way: "The purpose of this petition is to point out to government officials that we, the undersigned, ask that action be taken to construct a road connecting the community of Cape St. George to Mainland. The function of this road for L2764 June 5, 1986 Vol XL educational reasons would be immense. The .children would commute a distance of nine miles to a French school instead of commuting a distance of fifty miles. This road would also be used. in. promoting tourism, culture and, in turn, give a boost to the local economy." Mr.

Speaker, as members are aware, the Port au Port Peninsula is one of the French areas of Newfoundland. Most other areas where French reside in Newfoundland are where the French speaking people have come into the area but the French first settled on the Port au Port Peninsula in the 1800s. Some of them, Mr. Speaker, came from Brittany in Northern France and they settled on the Northern part .of the Peninsula at l'Ile Rouge. When we hear the name Mainland now, well, they lived on the Island and saw the Mainland as La Grand Terre, which was the great land. Mr.

Speaker, the French on the Port au Port Peninsula have been trying to preserve their culture and language and it has been something that has been dying in the past ten years. However, there have been some very active organizations in that area. The first was in Cape st. George and now most areas where French people C"eside now have formal organizations that work very well. I attended a meeting just a couple of weeks ago where all of the proceedings were conducted in French. There are still people who doubt the French fact on the Port au Port Peninsula but certainly, Mr.

Speaker, these groups are very dedicated to their culture and, in particular, to the preservation of their language. No. 47 R2764

Mr. Speaker, what brought this petition about is· the fact that the road between La Grand'Terre, Mainland that is, and Cap-St-Georges are some fifty miles apart but the actual distance, over the hill, is only about nine miles. Mr. Speaker, each year on St. Jean Baptiste Day and I would let hon. members know now that I will be collecting for this as I did last year - there is a walk between the French community of La Grand'Terre, Mainland, and Cape St. George. Mr. Speaker, what really brought this about is the fact that there is going to be a French school in Mainland.

This has caused some question about the distance between the two communities. As well, Mr. Speaker, there have been some studies . done. One being the Ubel study of Bay St. George back about eight or nine years ago and another study was done by La Terre-Neuviens Francais, the French group themselves, and another by Campbell Engineering. Those studies felt that, outside of the French fact itself and the togetherness of the French communi ties, that there was a great deal of economic benefit to be gained by a road across the Cape. Mr.

Speaker, if one were to look at the map of the Port au Port Peninsula, with a short road link, you could rationalize services on the Port au Port Peninsula, whether it be fire or school services, as we are talking about in this particular case. In particular, Mr. Speaker, this road is a road which would help greatly in the development of tourism in the area. I have walked along it on a couple of occasions. The area is one of L2765 June 5, 1986 Vol XL the most beautiful areas in the Province. It is impossible to see the true beauty of the Port au Port Peninsula unless one walks over the Port au Port Peninsula.

This road would link the two French speaking communities but would also give the area a situation where a person could drive around.the Peninsula, rather than back and forth to the various communities. As well as linking up the communi ties, it would aid in fish pickups, oil deliveries, tourists visiting the area and, basically result in a rationalization of municipal services. As well, Mr. Speaker, it would open up one of the most beautiful parts of the Peninsula and one of the most beautiful parts of Newfoundland. Mr.

Speaker, I would not want to belittle the prayer of the petition- by talking about economics but, it seems that with this petition everything comes together. The French speaking people of Port au Port and the English speaking people of Port au Port would all benefit by this petition, certainly the French culturally, but the district as a whole. So, Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to support this petition and refer it to the department to which it relates. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the member for St. Barbe. MR. FUREY: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to rise in my place to support the prayer No. 47 R2765

of this particular petition from Port au Port. It is interesting that the member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder) invited members to walk over Port au Port, because for the last fifteen yea~s, this administration has certainly been walking over Port au Port. With the unemployment rate there, I believe, hovering around the higher end of 70 per cent, we need to bring as many dollars as possible into the Port au Port region because - MR. HODDER: What is the unemployment rate again? HR. FUREY: May I have a little protection, Mr. Speaker? I did not open my mouth when the member for Port au Port spoke. HR.

SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! MR. HODDER: I just want to ask the member a question. What is the unemployment rate? MR. SP EAK ER: Order, please! MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, we welcome this petition, signed by some 900 people from La Terre-Neuvriens francais and other French groups in that particular region, as well as the English groups who now live side by side in harmony. I was surprised the member did not mention other communities that would be directly impacted and affected by this petition, such as Three Rock Cove, such as Lourdes, such as Ship Cove on the other end. This has been, Mr.

Speaker, a L2766 June 5, 1986 Vol XL dream of the people of Port au Port for many, many years. In fact, the han. member, when I was his campaign manager in 1982 when we survived the Peckford juggernaut which swept across this Province, led by the great . leader who was supposed to bring us all to the Promised Land. We put our heads down, the member for Port au Port (Mr.

Hodder) and myself, and went door to door, I, as his senior camaign chairman, I, as his media consultant, I, as the private citizen who wrote his ads, coached him, told him not to be nervous in front of a microphone and on radio, . taught him how to stand before a television camera, wrote his speeches, in fact, Mr. Speaker, in a nutshell, gave what little confidence he had a super injection so that he was partially proud of what he was trying to say at that time. Mr. Speaker, it is interesting. We improved in 1982.

Despite the tidal wave of blue Toryism sweeping across the Province, Port au Port, I am proud to say, elected Mr. Jim Hodder, with the help of this particular member, by a plurality of some 400 votes in that Peckford wave. Mr. Speaker, getting back to the petition, let me say this: Now, we see the member as a parliamentary secretary, collecting $15,000 above and beyond his salary. MR. SIMMS: What has this to do with the petition? MR. FUREY: From Port au Port, he is a Parliamentary Secretary to the Resource Policy Committee, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! No. 47 R2766

MR. FUREY: What better chance for him to have this road connected between mainland and - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. FUREY: - Cape St. George? MR. HODDER: On a point of order, Hr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): On a point of order, the bon. the member for Port au Port. HR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I have been listening. The member for St. Barbe has not said a word, as far as I can see, in any way in support of the petition. I understand, Mr. Speaker, that our Standing Orders say you must support the petition when you rise. Hr.

Speaker, comments about my position as a parliamentary secretary and comments of that sort are certainly not in support of that petition and are an insult to the francophones of Port au Port. As well, Hr. Speaker, I understand that the member over there could not even hold his own job as party Whip for more than a month and a half. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh! MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, there is - MR. SPEAKER: To that point - MR. FUREY: There is no point of order. Now, Hr. - MR. SPEAKER: L2767 June 5, 1986 Vol XL To that point of order, the point is well taken. MR. FUREY: It is well taken. MR.

SPEAKER: The bon. member was straying very much from the petition. · The bon. the member for St. Barbe. MR. FUREY: Hr. Speaker, what I was saying, to be very relevant, is that this is a very isolated pocket of people. DR. COLLINS: On a point of order, Hr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! On a point of order, the bon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I have to ~ise pn this point because it has happened time and time and time again. The bon. member continually offends. He keeps interrupting Your Honour.

Your Honour is up making a ruling and before Your Honour has completed a sentence, the bon. member is breaking in and making remarks. Secondly, when Your Honour calls for order, the bon. member persistently turns his back on Your Honour and pretends he does not hea~ Your Honour. The bon. the member for Menihek (Mr. Fenwick), I am sure, can often hear him. I have personally observed this many, many times in the last number of weeks and have let it go by because I did not really feel that I was particularly involved myself.

I think it is a disgrace to the Chair and I now feel that I am involved because I am a member of this House and I do not like our No. 47 R2767

Speaker and our Chair disgraced the way hon. member is doing it through his abjectly, unparliamentary procedure and attitudes. I-- would say that Your Honour should call him to order. MR. FUREY: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the hon. the member for St. Barbe. MR. FUREY: I apologize to the Chair if I did not hear you. If I turn my back on you sometimes, Mr. Speaker, it is because I am trying to raise my voice over the jackals and jackasses and whatnot on the other side. Mr.

Speaker, I apologize if that is the case and I would like to get on with the few minutes that I have left. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member's time has elapsed. MR. FUREY: To a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: To a point of order, the hon. the member for St. Barbe. MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, the point of order I am trying to make is in direct relation to this petition which is very important to La Terre-Neuviens francis and to the Port au Port Peninsula generally.

I wanted to say to the hon. member, I think it is only fair, and my point of order is this: I do support that petition and he is now in a position, being in the government, to do what is right - MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): L2768 June 5, 1986 Vol XL Order! MR. FUREY: and to go and have that road built. Stop sulking, get off his rear end and do it! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! There is no point of order. The bon. the Minister of Education . MR. HEARN: Mr. Speaker, I stand in support of the petition so ably presented by my colleague who has done such a good job this past X number of years.

That is why, despite whichever colour the hon. member was wearing when he last campaigned, was elected. The people of the district realized - MR. TULJC: A point of order, Mr: Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! A point of order, ~he hon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULJC: The point of order is this, Mr. Speaker. I clearly heard the member for St. Barbe (Mr. Furey), when he rose in his seat to support the petition, say, 'I support the petition.' I heard the hon. gentleman for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder) make the statement that he had not heard the member for St. Barbe support the petition.

Now, that should not be allowed to go by. The truth of the matter is that the hon. gentleman would like for him not to support the petition so then he could go out and play a little bit of politics with the people of Bay St. George and in No. 47 R2768

the Port au Port Peninsula. That is what he would really like to do. SOME HOM. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. FUREY: Who sold his soul? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I do not know what is getting the hon. gentlemen so exercised today. There is something that has happened to the hon. gentlemen. MR. PATTERSON: They are sitting·too close. MR. MARSHALL: The fact of the matter is the hon. member for St. Barbe got up and there was a point of order that he was not supporting the petition.

The Speaker drew him to order with respect to it and why the hon. gentleman is now getting so hot under the collar I do not know. MR. FUREY: A point of privilege, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of privilege, the hon. he member for St. Barbe. MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, I do not know if the hon. House Leader was even here. He is always wandering around through the corridors and I do not even know if he was here when I rose in my place, but my opening words were - Hansard will support L2769 June 5, 1986 Vol XL me on this - 'I rise in rny place to support this petition.'- Those were my opening words.

Now, you cannot get any clearer than that. I do not know why the hon. member for Port au Port, in his mischievous and devious little way, wanted to twist and convolute and turn around words that are very clear and very obvious. Then he was supported by somebody who should know better. I can understand it coming from the cavity between those ears from Port au Port, but from a man with your intelligence, with your know-how, with your experience, with your savvy, with your little ears, you should have been able to hear. Mr. Speaker, I feel insulted as a member that the hon.

House Leader would stand here and tell me that I did not support the prayer of that petition. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, how dramatic. You know, I am not being nice to the hon. gentleman because of his nice words or anything, but I am just saying let us get on with a certain amount of business. You know, all of the hon. gentlemen there opposite seem like they need an overdose of tranquilizers today to keep them down. The fact of the matter is, let us get on with the business of the House, Mr. Speaker.

The hon. gentleman brought in his petition in the usual way in which he brings in a petition. The bon. gentleman had been called to order for some reason. The hon. Opposition House Leader (Mr. Tulk) No. 47 R2769

~ets mad, you know, and blows a ~asket. The member for St. Barbe (Mr. Furey) blows a ~asket. The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry) blew a ~asket earlier. You know, let us calm it down so we can ~et on with some business. MR. TULK: To that point of privile~e, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of privile~e, the bon. the member for Fo~o. MR. TULK: The truth of the matter is that there was a ~entleman who rose in this House, the member for St. Barbe, and his openin~ remarks were 'I support the petition • .. The Government House Leader (Mr.

Marshall), either out of i~norance or otherwise ·, rose in his place and said that the bon. ~entleman had not supported the petition. Now as I said before, the truth of ' the matter is that they would love for the member for St. Barbe - AN HON. MF.MBER: This is not a point of privile~e. MR. FUREY: This is a point of privile~e. MR. TULK: A point down and House. of privile~e, boy. Sit learn the rules of the MR. FUREY: Sit down, you should know better. MR. TULK: Wait until your turn comes! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! L2770 June 5, 1986 Vol XL MR. TULK: Mr.

Speaker, tell him to wait until his turn comes! The truth of the matter is the member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder) would love for him not to support the petition, but that will in no way come true. The hon. ~entleman has made certain campai~n promises down there to learn how to speak French, now that he has not done it, he is try in~ to lay some thin~ on the member for st. Barbe. MR. SPEAKER: I have heard enou~h on that point of privile~e to rule on it now. There is no point of privile~e. There is a difference of opinion, obviously, between two han. men.

I would also like to rule on the point of order t'aised by the han. member for Fo~o. I think the point was when the hon. the Minister of Education was speakin~ that he was not speakin~ to the petition. MR. TULK: No, no, no. I was just sayin~ what he has tried to (inaudible). MR. SPEAKER: All ri~ht. Okay. Well, I rule it is a difference of opinion between two hon. gentlemen. The han. the Minister of Education has about a minute left. MR. HEARN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to say, Mr. Speaker, I fully support the petition.

The establishment of a road across from Mainland to the Cape will not only have tremendous advanta~es in the field of education, it will brin~ to~ether the nucleus of the people on the Port au Port Peninsula, many of whom are French No. 47 R2770

or are closely affiliated with French, generally speaking. Also, not only in the field of education, but certainly in the field of tourism, an area that is perhaps economically deprived to some extent, the road will help. Tourism has tremendous potential for that area. The road across the mountains in that area will tremendously increase the benefit to the people generally.

So I, and I know government generally, certainly support the petition presented by my colleague and he and I have been doing a fair amount of work this past few months to make sure that the school in Mainland and certainly the road generally will become a reality for the people who live in that part of the Province. MR. TOBIN: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. the · member for Burin- Placentia West. MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order.

This afternoon in the debate during Question Period, when the Premier mentioned to the Leader of the Opposition about the hiring practices of an executive assistant in the Marystown Shipyard when the leader was the Minister of Development, responsible for the shipyard, the response from that debate from the Leader of the Opposition stated, Mr. Speaker, that as a minister he had a responsibility to an executive assistant. The Act or the Minute of Council or whatever it was, stated that the executive assistant had to be placed, that that was part of the law, Mr. Speaker, in the public service.

L2771 June 5, 1986 Vol XL Now, Mr. Speaker, - MR. SPEAKER: I do not get the hon. member's point of order. MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, this is the point, I am getting to it now. He stated that and the Minute of Council, Mr. Speaker, quite clearly states that an executive assistant who has been in the position for three years has the right to be placed in the public service. The point of order is, Mr. Speaker, that the statement by the Leader today was not fact. The Marys town Shipyard is not, and I stress this, Mr. Speaker, part of the public service. It is a Crown corporation. Mr.

Speaker, they can laugh all they want, but the fact of the matter is if we are going be here, Mr. Speaker, the statements that are made have to be factual, have to be true. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I hope I get a chance to explain. MR. TOBIN: Yes. Mr. Speaker, ·my point of order is, and it is a very serious point of order, Mr. Speaker, because what was said in this debate today, and you have got to understand the context that it was said in and understand the issue, Mr.

Speaker, that was in debate at the time, when the Leader of the Opposition stood in this House and tried to defend his actions by saying that the act stated that what he did was right because an executive assistant had to be placed in the public service. Mr. Speaker, he did not place the executive assistant in the public service but, rather, in a Crown Corporation. Now, Mr. Speaker, No. 47 R2771

that is a difference. MR. SPEAKER: very significant It has nothing to do with order in this House. MR. TOBIN: I asked Your Honour, Mr. Speaker, to make that quite clear, that the statement today by the leader was not factual, Mr. Speaker, and he should be made to at least clarify it, if not withdraw it. MR. BARRY: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for Burin - Placentia West for having given me the opportunity to deal with this issue. It is very interesting, Mr.

Speaker, what they are trying to scrape up from my past. Mr. Speaker, apparently it does not matter whether it is in caucus, in Cabinet, or in my ministerial files. There is no such thing as a thirty year rule or a twenty year ~ule. It is obviously a five minute rule, five minutes after you asked him a hard question, then the Cabinet secrecy, caucus secrecy, all goes out the window. Mr. Speaker, do I care? Not on your life, Mr. Speaker! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: Not on your life! Throw the windows open, throw the doors open, throw the files open and let it all hang out, Mr. Speaker.

L2772 June 5, 1986 Vol XL SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: Let the public see and let us see what the fact is here now. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. BARRY: I do not intend to delay, Mr. Speaker, on this point. If the member would stay quiet a minute, I will explain. We had, Mr. Speaker, a young man who had a family living in Grand Bank who was the executive assistant to a minister of the Crown. Not to me. No relation to me. Never worked on my political campaign. Never did anything other than, Mr. Speaker, ask for fairness and consideration.

Now, as an executive assistant, his minister has resigned and was no longer in government. Mr. Speaker, the individual was entitled - now we have to understand this, it is not a competition for the general public - by an Order in Council to be hired in another position once his minister is no longer in government. MR. TOBIN: That is not true. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, let me finish that. The member and the Premier apparently had decided to split this hair and it seems that what I did grievously wrong was make representation to have this individual employed by a Crown Corporation, rather than by the public service.

MR. TOBIN: No. 47 R2772

Which the Minute of Council states. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I plead with this House, I plead with the member opposite, I plead with the Premier, do not make me resign my seat for having done that, please, please, please! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: Mr.

Speaker, am I to be condemned forever, do I &O now out of this House with a scarlet letter on my forehead because I have helped an individual who is entitled to a job in the public service, instead of doing that, I helped them get a job in a Crown Corporation because that would permit him to be employed near where his home was and where his family was. Hr. Speaker, to that vile and hideous crime, I confess! I eonfess, Mr. Speaker, I confess and I plead and I be&! I beg, Mr. Speaker, that the member for Burin - Placentia West (Mr. Tobin) and the Premier not make me resign for such a vile and hideous crime.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. BAIRD: He has gone off his head again. MR. FUREY: Back in your hole gofer. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! I have heard sides. There point of order. enough from is obviously both no L2773 June 5, 1986 Vol XL MR. K. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A petition, the hon. the member for Stephenville. MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I rise today to present a petition concerning the MUN Extension office. This is the latest one that I have received and it contains 200 to 300 names. I am very proud to stand here today and present it to this House.

I feel very strongly that we should keep pressing the university administration to reconsider the decision they have made and also press the government to provide the proper funding for the university, which is in dire financial straits. I want to go through a list of the number of things · that the Extension office out in that area has provided, just some of the things they have done over the last year or so. I want to go through a list of the accomplishments, if you want to say, or some of the things that they have been working on.

It is very impressive and it is a wide-ranging contribution made to the whole economy of the whole area, the Southwest Coast. They have been providing councilling services to a number of groups out there concerning financial or government agencies on how to apply for grants. They have been involved heavily in community development, involved with ninety-odd communities on the Southwest Coast, which is quite a wide range of communities to be handling. They organized and prepared the Futures Conference that was held last year and where No. 47 R2773

theLe is now ongoing consultations with the economic development gLoups of the aLe a and also with the government depaLtments as they aLe tLying to impLove the economy. TheLe was also, foL the fiLst time, an economic development oLganization. It was the ·first time they had come together and this was done on initiatives of the MUN Extension office. They have also been working on out there, as an extra service, aquaculture activities, trying to get people involved in aquaculture out there to get into the industry and to provide some work in that area.

They have also been involved with organizing The Troubadour magazine, which is now the youth magazine for Newfoundland and Newfoundland. As a matter of fact, Mr. Neil Tilley is on the Youth Advisory Council as a member and so has made ·a wide ranging contribution on that end. They have also been involved on the white - DR. COLL IN S: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: · Order, please! A point of order, the han. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, the bon. member is apparently trying to present a petition.

He is not doing a very good job of it, but he is doing his best and his colleagues oveL theLe are making so much noise it is difficult to follow the hon. member. He is difficult to follow anyway, but, I mean, with all the noise over there, it is almost impossible to follow him. So could his colleagues be told to be silent as the House rules require L2774 June 5, 1986 Vol XL and let the hon. member try to make the point he is trying to make in the petition? MR. TULK: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the hon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULI<: . He is absolutely correct, Mr.

Speaker, and now that the member for Burin - Placentia West (Mr. Tobin) is out of the House, it will be absolutely quiet. MR. FUREY: You can go back to sleep now 'John.' MR . SPEAKER: To that point of member can have petition. MR. I<. AYLWARD: order, silence the bon. for' his Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I want to thank the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) for the compliment on the job I am doing in presenting the petition. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. I<. AYLWARD: I got a list about an arm long here of the contributions that they have made out there.

The petition is presented to me by over 250 people, students at the college, workeLs in the area, and people who are concerned about education on the Southwest Coast region. So I think it matter that this office No. 47 is the and a very serious dismantling of the one in R2774

Marystown is going ahead without really any fuss being kicked up by the administration here and without taking the responsibilities which are theirs. The university is in dire financial straits and I have to emphasize that fact. They are going to be forced probably in the Fall of this year to institute more cutbacks and students are going to suffer. Rural Newfoundland is now going to suffer because of this development, because of the lack of monies that have been given to the university.

We hear about the big contributions that were made but over the next four to five years we are going to have over· $187 million withdrawn by the federal government that should come to Newfoundland. That we are not even looking at, we are not facing it yet, but that is going to make it even tougher on our system down here. I rise and I want to present this petition. I am very happy to present it. I hope that something comes of it. I hope that we keep pushing and pushing until we have a realization at the university and in government that rural Newfoundland has to be served by such a service.

I feel very proud to present it today and I urge the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies (Mr. Power) and the President of the University, whom I have been meeting with and discussing this with, to take it into very careful consideration as we do need this service out in rural Newfoundland. I thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. BAKER: · L2775 June 5, 1986 Vol XL Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the member for Gander. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BAKER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It gives me a great deal of pleasure to support the . petition presented by the member for Stephenville (Mr. K.

Aylward). I have been sitting and listening to a few of those petitions that have been presented having to do with MUN Extension and what is happening to the university as a result of the policies of this government. First of all let me say, Mr. Speaker, that it seems as if all I have been hearing over the last number of years, particularly since this administration came into office, is eliminate, eliminate, eliminate. Mr. Speaker, they have a great struggle, and do you know what their struggle is?

The great struggle of this government is to try to keep things going that were put in place before they came in office. Mr. Speaker, they cannot even keep the things going that were there when they came in office! What kind of a government is that, Mr. Speaker? For quite some time we have seen the deterioration of the Trans-Canada Highway. We have seen suggestions ft·om the federal government to eliminate all kinds of programmes dealing with Newfoundland, and now we see this government standing up and announcing tremendous increases to Memorial University. One of the big points in the Minister of No. 47 R2775

Finance's budget was the tremendous increase that was going to be granted to Memorial University. But in fact, Mr. Speaker, what we have seen is this: We have seen an enrolment that has been increasing by 10 or 15 per cent at Memorial and compared to the actual ·usable money to the university, it has been increasing at a much lower percentage. By usuable money I am not talking in terms of the capital money that was used to build the extensions to the university and so on, but the usable money having to do with the teaching of courses, which is the main function of the university.

We have seen that increase at a far slower rate than the enrolment increases at the university. The net result is that the university has had to consolidate and they have been squeezed year after year, squeezed, until now they have taken this step that t am certain they do not want to take. That is the problem. They do not want to close down the Extension Service. This is their link to rural Newfoundland; this is their link to every thing that exists outside of the Avalon Peninsula; this is the thing that br.ings the university closer to the areas of the Province that are far removed from st. John's.

I would say to you, Mr. Speaker, the university is not particularly interested in cutting those ties. The Extension Service provided an invaluable service, instigated community projects, instigated various kinds of community development, provided 9pportunities for individuals to further their personal development and Mr. Speaker, that is an important aspect of this. The university does not want to cut it L2776 June 5, 1986 Vol XL back. However, they have been squeezed so much by this government, who has taken a hands-off approach - and I can still hear the Minister of Career Development (Mr. Power) now, Mr.

Speaker, talking about how, 'we cannot interfer with the integrity of the university. We cannot give them money and tell them where to spend it'. I agree. We cannot do that. The university stands on its own. However, I would suggest to you, Mr. Speaker, that the university is being very responsible in this way, that they have retained these services for so long, after so many years of being squeezed financially by this government, and not wanting to raise tuition fees too high to drive people out of the university.

They have resisted doing this for so long but they are at the point now where something has to be cut. This particular service, compared with some of the other things the university is doing, had to be cut. The solution is not, Mr. Speaker, for the government to give the university money and then say 'you have to spend it here, here, here and here. ' That is not the solution. The solution is, first of all to agree that the university is acting responsibly, and if the position of the government is the university is not acting responsibly, then that is a different case.

If their position is that the university is acting responsibly, then, Mr. Speaker, the only solution is to provide the extra money to make sure that that contact with rural Newfoundland remains intact. As I pointed out earlier it is a very valuable contact. Now I would like to hear some No. 47 R2776

comment at this point from one of the heavyweights on the other side. A couple of them there on the front benches are not heavyweights, that is for sure. But I would like to hear some comment from some of the heavyweights on the. other side as to whether they are saying - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. BAKER: About ten seconds . As to whether they are saying, Mr. Speaker, that the university is being irresponsible or are they, in fact, admitting that they are the ones who are cutting off this service by the reduction of funds. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR.

COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I hesitate to rise. When the hon. member mentioned the word 'heavyweight' - I am much too modest - I almost did not rise. But I intended to speak on this so I am going to overcome my modesty and rise anyway. I support the petition. SOME HOM. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! DR. COLLINS: I think the hon. the member for Stephenville is clearly concerned about his area, as he should be. I am quite sure he is concerned about the young people in this Province and I am quite sure he is concerned about the progress of education in this Province. However, Mr.

Speaker, whilst · L2777 June 5, 1986 Vol XL supporting the petition, one has to bring out certain realities and that is that universities throughout Canada, throughout the world, are under difficulties at this point in time because the 1980s is a less affluent area throughout the world than the 1970s. We have just gone through a rece~sion. The effects of the recession are not yet over. So the universities throughout the world have not been able to draw as easily on the funds available to them as in the past. Now despite that, Mr.

Speaker, and despite the fact that we are the least affluent Province in Canada, I think we should realize that last year over $88 million was given to the university for its operating budget. MR. MARSHALL: How much? DR. COLLINS: Eighty-eight point three million dollars was given to -the university for its operating budget. That works out at something over $160 for every man, woman, child, baby and infant in this Province that was given to the university for its operating fund.

Now, I am sure the university could have done with more money, I am sure the university wanted more money, I am sure it would have used it in its best discretion, but for every man, woman, and child in this Province to donate to the university $160, every person, every single resident in this Province, I think is a pretty fair contribution. Now, Mr. Speaker, the university is a very responsible organization when it has this amount of money generously given by the people of No. 47 R2777

this Province through the government. The government does not give it, it is given by the people of this Province through the government. When the university gets this money, it has to decide how best to expend it. I am sure it would like to have many more programmes than it has, but it has to realize that certain programmes that were put in at one point in time, which were desirable, can now fall in priority as certain other things are put· in place. Now, MUN Extension was put in place when there were almost no other organizations outside St.

John's to help with economic development, to help with community development. That is no longer the case. There are many organizations that have been put in place by this government outside St. John's for that purpose now. Similarly, the ~xtension was put in place when the university presence in Corner Brook, close to where the hon. member's district is, was very small. That is no longer the case. The university's presence on the West Coast now is much, much expanded and this government, only this year, has decided to fund a Fine Arts Division for the university on the West Coast.

So the university authorities have decided, even though they are getting generous funding, and they have many demands on it, they say, 'Which priorities must we service and which ones of somewhat lesser priority must we let go?' and they have decided they would have to let go the branch off ice for MUN Extension in the han. member's district. I sympathize with the han. member, but these are the facts of lif-e. L2778 June 5, 1986 Vol XL MR. TULK: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the han. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker·, the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) - MR.

FUREY: The most powerful man in the Province. MR. TULK: No, he is not the most powerful man in the Province. MR. FUREY: Yes, he is the most powerful man. MR. TULK: The most powerful man in the Province is r-ight there. The Minister of Finance is the second most powerful man in this Province, he is the man who controls the purse strings in this Province. I understood him to say that he supported the petition. I would ask the hon. gentleman to not use the 14 per cent which is really 8 per cent that Memorial got in terms of spending, which is hardly above inflation over the last couple of years. It is only catch-up.

I would ask him, then, if his support means that he is now going to find the little amount of money that is required to keep the MUN Extension facility open in Stephenville? Because it is not much point in the han. gentleman standing up and saying, 'Well, I support' and then say 'but'. He has the cash, now come on with it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: No. 47 R2778

Mr. Speaker! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: The hon. gentleman is disrupting the proceedings of the House here. Look, here we are, near to five o'clock, and we have not even gotten the business of the day. I do not know what is wrong with the hon. gentleman. I do not know whether there is news in the Liberal Party that they have deferred their local leadership convention and he is upset about that today or what the reason for it is, but he is very cranky and canterkerous today.

I suggest that when he gets up get up on legitimate points of order, but let us get to the business of the House, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: There is no point of order. MR. TULK: On a new point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: There is no point of order. MR. TULK: I want to correct something that the hon. gentleman said. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. TULK: On a new point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A new point of order, the hon. member for Fogo. MR. TULK: I just want to correct just a L2779 June 5_, 1986 Vol XL couple of things that the hon. gentleman has said.

First of all, there will not be a leadership convention in this party, I can assure him, for the next twelve to fifteen years. Secondly, - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. TULK: - what is really getting me upset is that the hon. gentleman has been looking over here for the past couple of days smiling and I cannot stand the sweetness and light. MR. SPEAKER: There is no point of order. I would like at this stage to welcome to the Visitor's Gallery 58 Grade 1 V, V and Vl students from St. Peter's and St.

Paul's Schools, King's Cove, and also their teachers, Tom Maddox, Morris Lewis, Leo Furlong, Jerome Ricketts and Carol Ryan. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: I would also like to announce three questions for the adjournment. The fir'st is by the hon. member for' St. Barbe (Mr. Furey) who is not satisfied with the answer given by the Minister of Public Works and Services. The second is from the bon. member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk) who is not satisfied with the answer given by the Minister of Public Works and Services. The third is fr'om the hon. member for Port de Grave (Mr.

Efford) who is not satisfied with the answer given by the Premier. Orders of the Day No. 47 R2779

Motion, the han. the Mini stet" of Education to intt"oduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Local School Tax Act," carried. (Bill No. 43) On motion, Bill No. 43 t"ead a f it"s t time ot"det"ed t"ead a second time on tomot"t"OW. On motion, the following _ bills wet"e t"ead a thit"d time, ot"det"ed passed and theit" titles be as on the Ot"der Papet". A bill, "An Refonn The Cor-pot"ations." Act To Revise ·And Law Respecting (Bill No. 20) A bill, "An Act To Amend The Fann Development Loan act. •• (Bill No. 15) MR. SPRAKER: Ot"der 5, Bill No. 25. "A Bill,

An Act To Amend The Real Estate Trading Act To Provide For The Establishment Of The Real Estate Foundation. •• (Bill No. ~5) . MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Bonavista North. MR. LUSH: I just question submitted Bill. I want to ask a brief on this Bill. We an amendment to this do not know whethet" the government made a final decision on that, whether they said they wet"e going to accept this amendment ot" whether they wet"e not. I wonder if the hon. the House Leadet" can clarify that? MR. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, I do not mind responding to the question, but the han. gentleman's question is · not in ordet" on Third Reading. I L2780 June 5, 1986 Vol XL will say that the decision was made. We debated it, I do not know if the membet" was in the House at the time, in committee and the government decided at the time it was not inclined to accept the amendment. It considet"ed it and the Minister of Consumer Affairs and Communications (Mr. Russel), I believe - he is indicating by nodding - indicated that we would tt"y it as it presently is, and if there are any amendments needed, we would be prepat"ed to present them.

On motion, the following bills were read a third time, ordered passed and the it" titles be as on the Ot"der Paper: A bill, "An Act To AI}lend The Real Estate Trading Act To Provide For The Establishment Of The Real Estate Foundation". (Bill No. 25). A bill, "An Act To Amend The Embalmers And Funeral Directors Act, 1975". (Bill No. 22). A bill, "An Increase of (Bill No. 24). Act Respecting An Certain Pensions". A bill, "An Act To Amend The Land Development Act". (Bill No. 5).

A bill, "An Act To Amend The Labt"adot" Linerboard Limited Agt"eement Act, 1979 In Ordet" To Ratify, Confinn And Adopt An Amending Agreement Entered Into Between Het" Majesty The Queen In Right Of The Province Represented By The Honout"able The Ministet" Of Fot"est Resout"ces And Lands And Abitibi-Price Inc.". (Bill No. 6). MR. MARSHALL: Ot"det" 14, Bill No. 1. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Ordet" 14. Second reading of a No. 47 R2780

bill,

An Act To Implement An Agreement Between The Government Of Canada And The Government Of Newfoundland And Labrador On Offshore Petroleum Resource Management And Revenue Sharing. (Bill No. 1). The debate was adjourned by the hon. the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren). MR.. I<. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Stephenville. MR. I<. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It is a pleasure to . speak to this bill today to let my comments .and opinions go forth on what I think of the legislation, how we got where we are today and where we are going in the future.

As this bill is supposed to be a development bill in the sense that we have planned our future, we have something that is a solid foundation for the future of this Province when it comes to th 'e petroleum industry offshore. I watched the battles this government had with the Liberal government in Ottawa over the years , when they were saying they could not do this and they could not get that. But we had to and sign an agreement with the present government in Ottawa even before they were elected. But we finally got it, they finally brought it in, and it is about time, it is nice to say it.

There are some good things in thes agreement, but there was something there, as I was reading but there was something there, as I was reading through it, which I could not believe. I said to myself, the L2781 June 5, 1986 Vol XL Premier of this Province and his administration have always fought to have participation in the offshore industry; to have a say in what goes on, and while there are some good things in this bill, and I will talk about them also, but the big thing that I arn_really surprised with is this 40 per cent back-in that has now been thrown out the window.

I am amazed that this Province has signed an agreement, wants to put it through both Houses , the House of Commons and the House of Assembly here in Newfoundland, and we do not have any say in the development. I am amazed, I am disappointed and I think that it is a major flaw of this agreement. I would like to quote Mr. Douglas House who is the head of the Royal Commission on Unemployment and Employment. He has been travelling around this Island and he wrote a book in 1985 The Challenge of Oil. In that, I just want to take a quote as he is quite a noted source on this.

"By far the most important weakness is state participation. The 1977 regulations provided for the Newfoundland Petroleum Board to take an undivided 40 per cent interest in every lease. This participation was to provide both a major source of revenue and, more importantly a direct say for the Province of Newfoundland through 40 per cent representation on any management or operating committee relating to the lease area. "Although radical for· North America such a participation agreement is now standard practice in the offshore industry internationally" - and everywhere No. 47 R2781

else. but "Participation has been all abandoned in , the Atlantic Accord." I had to read that about three or four times. I had to go look and read the agreement. I had to go look and talk to people who are in the industry and see if that is a fact. I had to see if exactly if that is what they did, if they had just threw it out the window in their negotiations and signed away a say that you would have had in any of the developments in this Province when it comes to offshore oil. I cannot believe that they went ahead and did it. I think it is a major flaw.

It is something that supposedly this administration had been fighting for and I think that they should reassess exactly what they have and see if they can get that back, but I doubt very much if Mr. Mulroney and his troop up there -are going to do anything of that nature as they love taking things away. It appears that they are going to take away a lot more before they are finished. But, their mandate is running out very fast. I have to express my disappointment that we do not have that 40 per cent ownership level and the resulting participation.

As a matter of fact, the oil companies even agreed previously in '77 to the regulations that, for example, in the Hibernia development, would have meant a 40 per cent say. We would get 40 per cent of the revenues, we would get all of the things that have to do with the decision-making process, we would be totally involved as part owner of the resource. I thought that this adminstration had always fought for that and L2782 June 5, 1986 Vol XL many Newfoundlanders and Labradorians supported them on that. I thought they had fought for this participation, for ownership, that we have to have. It is our resource.

It is ours and we have to have a say over it. Now they have an agreement which I believe is flawed, it has good points . but this is a major flaw which I cannot believe that they have let go and let them in. MR.. MARSHALL: Would the bon. member permit a question? Are you going to vote for it or against it? MR. EFFORD: We will let you know that later. MR.. MARSHALL: Surely there is no hesitation since all of your criticisms are (inaudible) - MR. K. AYLWARD: The min~ster does not ·have to worry about my vote. MR.. MARSHALL: You cannot be two-faced all the time. MR. K. AYLWARD: I am not like some characters. MR.

HISCOCK: Listen to who is talking. MR. K. AYLWARD: I am not like some characters, but I do believe in expressing my opinion and I do not believe I am an anti-Newfoundlander because I am not a Tory, obviously. That seems to be the case around here in this Province. As a matter of fact we are going to be forced actually. It is unfortunate you know, I mean you think about it, you can say 'how No. 47 R2782

are you going to :vote for it or against it whatever. ' They make the people believe that everything they do is for the people and that they could not get it any better. They could not get it any better. You know, it is amazing. This is the administration that says, 'We are always thinking about the people, our interests are undivided. We would tell the Ottawa crew exactly what we think of them, if they were trying to do us in in any fashion or any manner.' We seen that evident in the fisheries restructuring agreement of FFTs. That was exceptional work done by this Province on putting our interests forward.

There is no doubt about it that they held Ottawa to its agreement and held them to their word. So while we have an agreement, that supposedly is good, that supposedly has all the interest of Newfoundland and Labrador in it, we have major people in this Province who have said there are some flaws. Of course, we are going to point out those flaws and hope that the renowned Minister responsible for the Petroleum Directorate (Mr. Marshall), is going to correct those flaws.

As a good Opposition should do, we should point out those flaws and we should bring forward some points so that they can be corrected so that the future of Newfoundland's offshore petroleum industry is taken care of and is put in a better manner for the future. It is not a problem whether or not you support it or support this amendment or you support this

section of it, there are some flaws in this agreement that you would think that this L2783 June 5, 1986 Vol XL administration would say, 'There is no problem with it, boy, just go ahead and pass it through and it has nothing to do with it.' But I tell you there are some things there that I think should be pointed out and I am going to do that. Hopefully, the administration will listen. Again, that is hopefully, and I suppose that hope has dwindled lately because they have not listened to too much. I have some major concerns. There are some good things in it.

It is better than what you had in Nova Scotia and that is fine and it is good to see, we got that, that is great, that is wonderful, but there are some definite problems that we have. it and I would like to go through a few things. The recall clause, re the Atlantic Accord, as far as I am concerned, when it comes to the offshore, fails.

When you talk about the Corne By Chance Oil Refinery, for example, and you talk about how we are supposed to have refining capacity and that we are going to have first crack at that and that it will provide jobs here, there are questions as to whether or not that is going to come into existence. There are some questions related to whether or not the resource is not treated the same as if it were on land and it is a major question. If it was on land as in Alberta, and whether or not we have the control over the rate of production that we are supposed to have, there are some questions about that.

Those are questions that I have about this legislation. I think they are very serious questions about this legislation that I have and I think the minister should take heed and should reassert or at least look at these concerns because we have got some major No. 47 R2783

problems . There is a lot of information, Mr. Speaker, that is not out. While we have the bill here, there was a lot of information that is not out as related to the royalties sc