VOL. 3 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 2:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. TUESDAY, APRIL 18, 1978 NO. 32 ..

April 18, 1978, Tape 1132, Page 1 -- apb The House met at 2:00 p.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I thank Your Honour for recognizing me. I am rising on an urgent matter, Sir, involving a breach of the privilege of this hon. House. I might say for the benefit of the House that I am raising it at the earliest opportunity.

I did do Your Honour the courtesy of calling on Your Honour yesterday afternoon to let Your Honour know that I intended to raise this matter at the earliest possible moment and this is the earliest possible moment because Your Honour was not in the Chair yesterday all day, we were in Committee of the Whole on Supply. The matter, Mr. Speaker, involves statements, innuendoes and insinuations made on I ! Thursday night past by the hon. the Premier when we were in Committee of the Whole and we were debating the .I estimates of the Premier's Department, Executive Council. The Premier, Mr.

Speaker, made statements involving the cost of the Opposition's telephone bills and singled out the cost of my telephone bill without tabling the information in connection with other members' telephone bills. Now I did not mind that, Mr. Speaker, because I am quite prepared to have my telephone bills laid on the Table of the House. I am quite prepared to do that, Sir, and I hope that all other hon. members, including ministers, are preapred to do the same thing. But that is not the main point at all, Sir.

The main point is that the Premier in making these allegations and these statements and these innuendoes has really opened up a can of worms. The first question, Sir, that we have to ask as members of this House; what about, :

April 18, 1978, Tape 1132, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: now, confidentiality? Mr. Speaker, are members telephone bills being tampered with? Is there any such thing now as confidentiality? Can, for instance, a person outside of this House who wants to call a member of the House collect, can he do so and give him a tip on whether it be a scandal or whether it be bits and pieces of information and what have you? Can he call a member of this House knowing that the information is going to be treated as confidential?

Or can the Premier send one of his staff down to the Department of Public Works any time he feels like it to find out who has been calling members of this House or who members of this House 1 indeed 1 have been calling? MR. MORGAN: Why not? MR. NEARY: I beg your pardon? MR. MORGAN: The taxpayers are paying for it, everybody should know. SOME HON. !1EMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! I should like to point out that when a matter of privilege comes up there is an extra responsibility - if one wants to put it that way - on the Chair to maintain order, because nobody can intervene.

I cannot hear a point of order and I think, also, there is an extra incumbenc~ on the hon. member making the point of privilege not to enter into debate but to state clearly his submission of a breach of privilege, but that everybody should avoid debate. MR. NEARY: Thank you,Your Honour. As a matter of fact, Your Honour, the member who just spoke put his finger on a very significant aspect of this whole serious situation that has developed. The hon. gentleman said, Well, why do the taxpayers not have a right to know? The problem is that the taxpayers do ...

April 18, 1978, Tape 1132, Page 3 -- apb MR. NEARY: not know. It is the Premier who has sent, through his minister - and I do not know which minister it was, whether it was the Minister of Manpower or whether it was the present Minister of Industrial Development - the Premier asked the minister to get this information from the Department of Public Works. Now, Sir, here is what has happened, Mr.

Speaker - to answer my hon. friend - this is a very serious violation of the security regulations of the Newfoundland Telephone Company inasmuch as no member of this House, no person in this Province, nobody but nobody on the face of this earth has the right to tamper with members' telephone bills, to ask for information about - PREMIER MOORES: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: - bills, Mr. Speaker. They have no right, nobody but nobody unless, Mr.

Speaker, they have a search warrant issued by the court of this Province under the Newfoundland Telephone regulations nobody but nobody including the Premier of this Province has a right to inspect, to tamper with or to give out information on member's telephone bills. It is a very serious breach of trust and it is a violation of the security regulations of the Newfoundland Telephone Company. Now, Mr. Speaker, these Nixon-like tactics have undermined the

April 18, 1978 ~r.r - 1 HR, :·lEARY: ir:l!JU..""lity _of the ~e~:'.Jers of this Legislature, Sir, and Hr. Speaker, they have served, Sir, to inti.'llidate Q.enbers of this House in the carrying out of their duties and their responsibilities on behalf of their constituents and on behalf of the people of t:1is Province. :1m, Your :Ionour has to rcu:enber the context in 1~hich these statements were made by the han. the Premier. First of all, Sir, it 1'as t~1e ~~ir:ister c £ Transportation and Co=unications, who,throu~h innuendo, suggested that there 1ms sometl1ing ,rang 1vith the menbers' telephone !,ills.

And then about ten or fifteen minutes later, the Premier let it slip out in a rage, described in the press, Hr. Speaker, here is tite context, the scenario, described in the press as g~tting_redder and redder and getting madder and madder at the Opposition, especially at me, •,;ho was the one who 11as cross-=amining the Premier at t:1at time. So, Sir, it was done in a rage and it was done deliberately. And now, Sir, Your i:ionour knows that one of the most serious breaches of privilege of this douse is intimidating members. That is the most serious breach of privileg that any ;nember of this tlouse can commit.

I -would subJ:lit, Sir, that the hon. the Premier has breached the privilege of this ilouse. :~ow, Hr. Speaker, the question is, how far can the Pr=ier go in these :!ixon-like tactics by sending for information to the Department of Public :-!orl~s ~ i•lR. SPEAKER. Order, please! HR. ~EARY: How far has the Premier gone? HR.. S?I:.A:r~il; ------ Order, please! I think I understand the gist and,indeed,not only the generality but the particulars of the hen. gentleQ.an 1 s submission on privilege,and I would remind him that he must refrain from debate.

If there are any furt:ter remarks germaine and immediately irrelevant to the matter of privilege I \Jill .. c1ear them,but I 1;ould ::at be able to hear any dei:Jate on the matter.

April 18, 1978 Tape Xo. ll33 NN - 2 ~ ~R . ?JI:A.AY ..2_ '!'hank you, Your Honour. Well the question arises - t:!1ere are three real key questions that arise here, Sir.

First of all, in presenting this information to t~e House I think the Premier should be made to tell the House what 11as the t:10tive behind it, ~vhy my telephone bill ~;as singled out over and above other menbers, that is the first thing: And the second thing in conjunction ~·lith that question, is it pemissable for the Premier, ,.;hy did not Your Honour be asked to send for the cost of the members' telephone bills? why 1.;ould not the Auditor General be asked 1 :lhy should the Premier do this, Sir? And, :rr.

Speaker, I might point out for the benefit of han. members of the House, that I tried to get the same information this morniug and was refused as a member of this hon. :louse, r~as refused. :,'hy does the l'remier have the distinct honour and privilege of beillg able to send to the Department of Public :larks for certain information in connection with the Opposition telephone bills, that the Opposition tilemselves, including the Leader of the Opposition, cannot !1ave. 1fn.y, if this information has to be made available and should be I:lacle available and s!1ould be laid on the table of the ::louse, why is it not done for every member and "hY is it not done through Your llonour or ti:.rough the Auditor General? :Thy does the Premier ~ave to send a messenger from his office to the Department of Public ~-lorlcs to get this information?

And, ilr. Speal.er, hmJ far, thcn,can the hon. I'renlier go 'lith this information? Is the ?re-:nier,for instance, or anybody from his office, pe=itted to tamper Hith ~lll..\' s phone bills without a search warrant? CGn they go over and lool~ over,for instance, see \\rho is calling i:lY friend the Leader of t~e Opposition ancl ':-.Tho the Lead~r of t~JC: f'lnnn~i t:"iC'~ is calling?

And can tlley go dmm in :ae~ers offices dmvn on the fifth floor, if they can do thia wit;! tele;:-hone calls ,,;hy can they not do it cvith the files of ~e!IIbers by as!dng the security to go docm in the Opposition office and rifle t:he filing cabinets of the onen;:,ers? Is this not the san:e principle, l:r. Speaker? ...

April 18, 1978 Ta-pe :!o. 1133 'J'' ~- 3 Order, please: Order, please! I do :1.0 t think that I ""' thoroughly fa:c!iliar ~-ri th the point raised by th2 han. sentler:w .. n, anc:l unless t::ere is a very relev2.nt a!!.d brief re!l"lark I -.:vould consider further ?3rticii"ation to be debate. ~T .. ~~ .. "~Y: !7e2.1, t~e ot~1er ~1rief renar1{ that I ~-:rent to mak.

e) Your T~onour - I an not fir:ishec1. rvith ny priD.2. facie case ·- hut can telepho~es be 7:1.onitor~d on instructions fro!"l the Prel'li::er? This is another matter. So the

April 18, 1978 T!3-pe 1134 PK - 1 Mr. Neary: three questions, Sir, are first of all, can the Premier or should the Premier be the one to give out any information in connection with members' telephone bills? How far can the Premier go in examining the telephone bills of han. members? And how far has the Premier gone, which is probably more important) and can telephones be monitored on instructions from the Premier? Mr. Speaker - MR. NOLAN: Is the Telephone Company involved or - MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the Department of Public Works merely acts as an agent. Mr.

Speaker, I have my credit card here in front of me, and this is very, very important, Your Honour. My credit card, and incidentially I do not use a credit card; I have only used it about a half a dozen times since I have had it, and the hon. the Premier said the other day that I had $5,700 worth of phone calls on my credit card,which is not true, Your Honour, because I only used the credit card maybe six or eight or ten times in my life. But the credit card is issued in my name, Sir, Stephen A. Neary, MHA, the same as every other member's credit card is issued.

This credit card, Sir, - I am the customer of the Newfoundland Telephone Company,the Department of Public Works is merely the agency under which the bills are paid. And before any information can be released on my telephone calls it has to be done with my approval or on a search warrant from the court. Every month, Sir, I have to authorize approval of my telephone bill. So, Sir, I would submit that this is a very, very serious and grave matter, and breaches the privileges of this House. It is one of the most serious breaches of privilege, Sir, ever brought before this House.

The matter has to be dealt with swiftly, as quickly as possible , Your Honour. Members have to be reassured that the hon. the Premier has not in the past or will in the future go and tamper with the telephone bills or the files belonging to members in this House. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! I -I ' I .I. ·. ..

April 18, 1978 Tape 1134 PK - 2 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, I am not red nor am I mad this afternoon. I would just like to say I have not heard such garbage in my life, but that is beside the point. I will talk about the point of privilege as I see it. First of all 1 the reason it came up in the House was someone said, Well,what are the figures? And we found out. And that, Sir, I might say as far as I am concerned is not a matter of intimidation. It is not a matter of confidentiality. It is not a matter of question of the member's immunity.

It is a fact that when telephone bills are charged by government members or _Opposition members the fact is they are a cost to the taxpaver of this Province, and anything that is a cost to the taxpayer tn our oninjon. shnnln be public knowledge whether it be the Opposition or the government. The fact is, Sir, that the cost of the Opposition's telephone bills which I will table now, the fact is that - MR. NEARY: Table them all if you are going to table them. PREMIER MOORES: Oh,I will table them,sure, but you asked for the information.

You were here the other night when I was asked for this information, and you will get it. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! PREMIER MOORES: But I think, Sir, probably the way to overcome this in the future is not to have unlimited charging of telephone by members but rather the Opposition and government members have a set vote so they have to operate within that vote based on opposition costs. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

PREMIER MOORES: Now, Sir, the fact is, the fact that an MHA has the right to have his own telephone bills and his own cost, he has it, Sir, if he is paying for it; he does not have any right to his bill or his cost if he is a member of this Rouse of Assembly and being paid for by the taxpayers of this Province. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER MOORES: If he wants his home bill to be charged, of course. No one is talking about tampering with the telephones. No one is talking about what is being said or who it is being said to, but as long as the ; _, - I

April 18, H78 Tape 1134 PK - 3 Pretlli.er Moores: people of Newfoundland are ?aying for the members' bill, whether it be the memoer for LaPoile (Mr . Neary) or anywhere else, the people of Newfoundland .will know how muc:.b that is costing them. SOME H.ON. }!EMBERS: Bear, hear!

PREMlER MOORES: The fact is, Sir, that when I said the member for LaPoile bad first place,the credit card number is 0180352, the amount is $5,656.45, that is the allocation that was given by the department and the Telephone Company , if that is wrong the hon. member can find out where it was wrong, and find o·ut what the situation ~- s . ~. NTIARY: I cannot get it! l'hey will not give it to me! SOME HON. HEMBERS : Oh, oh!

PREMIER MOORES: But in the meantime, Sir, I have much pleasu ·re in tabling the amount of $128,000, $103,000 by the Opposition office the rest are broken down in amounts, I .am sure in the Opposition Office as in the government offi,ce. There a.re a g-reat many members who use it where it is not associated with their particular names. As the bon. member said himself the other day the average of the Opposition is $6,500. This one in fact is S5,800.

The fact is, Sir, that,as I said before 1 it is government's responsibility when public funds are being spent to say where they are being spent, vle are not tamperi~ with the telephon ·e conversat i on. We. are not tampering "ith wh.orrthe hon . member is calling, but I think, Si.r, it is the public:' s duty to know how much is beiDg spent by bon. members. SOME RON. MEHB'ERS : Hear, hear! I I _I [, i ·t .( ~· I ' ~ ' -~ ! •' ,, i t ,. ~ i i

April ld ,1978 Tape :io. 1135 AH-1 ;,rR. SPEfuillR: lion. Leacier of the Opposition. :·ir. Speaker, this is a very serious w.atter not to be dismissed in a cavalier manner as the han. the Premier has tried to rio.

First of all, Sir, nobody on this side of the House,and I woula assume nobody in the nouse,objects to the public knowing how cuch telephone calls are costing the government on account of either the ();>position or the government bacl~benchers or tile gover=ent theL1Selves, as long, Sir, as that information is lilade pubic in a get;eral sort of 1.;ay .And if one :nan is singled out and threathened, as the Premier did ti1e other night, then every member of this liouse, Sir, should have that ~de public including the ministers of the gover=ent, point number one.

The idea of the Premier of this Province in a gangster- like fashion stanciing up in this house - dR.. SPEAKER: Order, please! I must point out to the Leader of the Opposition,and to the entire iiouse,ti1at submissions nave to l..e on the point of question w"i.tit respect to 1~aether or not there was a breach of privilege and not debate. I am trying to make the point, Sir, that there was a breach of privilege.

The Premier standing up and in a m~~ner which can only be characterized as intimidat~~g, ti~eathening a member of titis House with exposure of his tel~phone bill or anything else that ;1as gone on , Sir, and singling ilim out and not providing the info=ation as it applies to other members of this ~louse is a very dangerous,intimidating thing to be doing, that is the first point I >>ant to .nake. The second point is titis, Sir; the Premier "...,y opening up this wi10le question has now raised oany serious questions about how confitiential,as my hon. friend has said. l!e;:.;i,ers' pi1one calls are.

Can the Premier order the Department of Public \,larks ,or uhoever is in cllarge of paying these bills, to bring up to i1is office the phone n=be'rs lvhicll ;tave been called by :.12 as a :.1ember of this Rouse ? iio if I have accepted a collect call from r:.y district or from elsewi1ere in this Province, and therefore the number may appear on the bill, does the if I 1 .I

April 18,1978 T2.pe No. 1135 AE-2 ~.W.ROWE: Premier of this ProvincE, 1-ir. Speaker, know that number, the number I have called or the number t~at I have received as a collect call? Does he know that? Is ttat infor.nation availablP. tn him1 MR. SlllHONS: Ee said the other night he had it. :m. TJ. ROUE: Can he determine from that, :1r. Speaker, 1:v~1c I i.1ave been s:>eaking to.

He :Laay uot k:1ow t:le content of the conversation, alt:1ough, Sir, froru \•.rhat has Been said here in tile House ~lreatly, I \Vould not doubt it or would not ;>ut it j?ast certain l:ilem.bers, Does be know v.·hom I have been talkin;> to or 11ho ;,as been talking to UJ.e,v.-hich is a piece of information that many people in this Province,operating under these partis= political times we are in, Sir, may want to keep secret and confidential.

And maybe that phone call would not have been wade at all to me had they knm-m that the Premier can go down to L-1e Department of Public Worl<E and dig up tnis infor~tion,wi"lich is not available to me, llr. Speaker, it is not available to my :10n. friend the Opposition I;ouse Leader,because he put the question to the test today and asked for the information and it was not available to him. .\nd it would not oe available,! would warrant, Sir, if I calletl up ten ninutes from now tl1e Depart:I:Je:;t of Public 1\orks, w<>ich I intend to do ,and ask for the bills for the han. member for Ferryland (:>r.

Power) district, I doubt, Sir, wi1e::her that info=e.tion will be given to me but apparently it can be given to the Premier or perhaps some of tl1e ministers in this govcr=ent wi1ich, Sir, is a clear breach cf the privileges of tJils House and myself as a member and partieularly my i10n. colleague who raiseci the matter because he was singled out.

It is a serious m.atter, Sir, iavolving the possibility of int:i.I:lindation of illyself as a member and every other member on this side of.the Ileus~. llow, Sir, t:1e question raised by "'Y han. friend may even JO further and this is why the :uatter i1as co be looked into in my estimation. ::R. ~mARY: Iavestigateci.

:1R. ;; • ~0:-'E : ~IR . NLlltY: ~IR . t>l. ROllE: Tape ~o . 1135 t\ll-3 Investigated . I do no t know, Sir , - And charges laid, Sir , if necessary . I co r.ot know, Sir, ,.nether in fact there have been br eaches of the law or regulatio ns by this so ver~~en t in the relationshi~ with the ~ew foundland t ele?non e Co~?~ny . f.ow much info~~ation does the Ptelilier set or i10w much is he entitled to because ~e can use his clout and his power auci his office rut :llessly as Pr etnier of tais Province ? Order , please !

I must point out t!l;,.t t he hou. aentleman obvil)usl y n:ay !!la ke submissions with r espect to the point of privile be . To t he best of ~y knowleJge ae has cov ered the mai~ areas anJ .i

April 18, 1978 Tape 1136 EC - 1 MR. SPEAKER: I do require him to avoid debate. MR. W. N. ROUE: One other point, Sir, and then I will resume my seat. The Premier should realize and we, as all members of the House, should realize, Mr.

Speaker, that by this kind of a tactic, this intimidating tactic, it may have the effect of causing people who may want to call me up as Leader of the Opposition, or one of my colleagues,to give us a piece of information - I get collect calls all the time, Sir, concerning Exon House. :na people who have inforMation they want to pass on to me legitimately and in good faith because they ~re concerned about that institution and how it was operated.

Ifthose people, Sir, thought for one minute that the han. the Premier or any member of the government could trace where that telephone call came from and perhaps take repressive action against that person in some way, Sir, that would be a clear violation, And apparently, Sir, if this can happen it would be a clear violation of my privileges as a member of the House of Assembly and certainly, Sir, it would be clearly against the public interest where there has to be free access to members of this House by all members of the public, bearing in mind, Sir, as~ clearly stated in Beauchesne, that I am not only the member for Twillingate district; my han. friend is not only the member for LaPoile district; once we take our seats in this ITouse we represent every person in this Province - each of us does, Mr.

Speaker - and therefore are entitled to access to the people and from the people in a confidential,trustworthy manner, not to be threatened or intimidated by the Premier of this Province. SOME RON. ~EMBERS: Hear, hear! .I ' ~ .

April 18, 1978 MR. SPEAKER: House Leader. HR. HICKHAl-1: Tape 1136 EC - 2 The han. the Government Mr. Speaker, I realize that debate on a question of privilege is very restricted and very limited to a minimum number of han. members, as Your Ronour has ruled, and that the constraints on debate make it sometimes difficult to deal with a question of privilege. But let me repeat two or three things for the benefit of the House. Yesterday, that same question was raised in the House either in a question of privilege or a point of order and ruled out of order by either the Chairman of Committees or Hr.

Speaker, I have forgotten whom. Consequently, a second raising of the question of privilege is not in order, if indeed it is a question of privilege. Now, Mr. Speaker, let us deal if I may very briefly with the question of privilege. The han. the Premier has said very clearly and very distinctly, and it must be known to anyone with even a grain of sense that having the total bill broken down on an individual basis for hen. members' telephone calls that are paid for by the taxpayers of this Province cannot and does not in any way interfere with the secrecy of those using the telephone bill.

There is no suggestion by any hon. member 1 and the han. the Premier has said that he has not, nor has he directed,that there has been anyone listening in or the slightest bit concerned as to who calls any hon. member or - ~om the hon. member calls. Secondly, Mr. Speaker, to suggest as the bon. the Leader of the Opposition did - and I try not to get into debate - that if someone called to give him some particular information ...

April 18, 1978 Tape 1136 EC - 3 MR. HICKMAN: about Exon House, that by asking or tracinE the caller that one would know who called, well, you know, take it to its logical conclusion that one would first have to know that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition received a telephone call about Exon House before you could trace it; otherwise, what calls could be traced or how many would have to be traced. PREHIER NOORES: SO~J ITO~. MEMBERS: MR. HICK MAN: No one is tracing it! Oh, oh! How many people would be half- witted enough to advance that kind of an argument . PREMIER MOORES: The Leader of the Opposition. MR.

HICKMAN: Again, Mr. Speaker, to suggest that simply bringing before the Committee,when one is dealing with the cost of operating this Legislature,the amount that is charged for telephone bills to hon. members or to the Opposition Office constitutes intimidation is crazy in the last degree and is not worth y of rebuttal, it is not worthy of dealing with, it does not fall into the category of intimidation. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR . HICKHAN: And the third, Mr.

Speaker - and I do believe that I am restraining from debating the issue and consequently I am entitled to the same silence that Your Honour has so properl y imposed upon this House on matters of privilege - the third point that was raised as a matter of privilege is that it is a breach of the security of the regulations of the telephone company. :'lR. NEARY: Right. :1R. IIICK HAN: Now, I hope that we have not reached the stage in this 3 ouse where the Legislature of ~ ewfoundland is bound or governed by any regulations that ..

April 18, 197 8 MR. HICKEAN: to impose upon itself. l1R . NEARY: HR. HICKMAN: the only - ~:-1 P.ON. !·lil!·!BER: HR. !HCKHAN: Tape 1136 EC - 4 a telephone co~pany may seek They are bound by law. Let me say, Mr. Speaker, By law! That is right, Mr. Speaker, and I do not need a lecture on that. ;;·

April 18, 1978, Tape 1137, Page 1 -- apb MR. HICKMAN : The law is very clear and unambiguous that if anyone wants to listen in to a wiretap there is a procedure which can be followed and that is the only procedure that is ever followed in this Province. MR. NEARY: Not so with the hon. the Premier. MR. HICKMAN: So, Mr. Speaker - PREMIER MOORES : Definitely untrue. MR. HICKMAN: If it is not true and if any bon. member knows that it is not true, and knows of a wiretap - PREMIER MOORES : That is right. MR.

HICKMAN: - and does not disclose it to the police, then that member is concealing a crime and should posthaste - SOME HON . MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. HICKMAN: Should posthaste - MR. HICIQII..AN: - should posthaste go and i .I SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! tell the police that they know about this nefarious deed. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! PREMIER MOORES: Go on! Have a bit of sense. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! I must ask bon. members not to interject. MR. HICKMAN: But, Mr.

Speaker, the only issues that are before the Chair today on the second attempt to raise this point of non-privilege - and it is not a privilege- is,number one, whether the tabling of in this House, or disclosing to the Committee of Supply in this House 1 the cost of telephone bills constitutes imtimidation of the members. Most assuredly not. And .. in order to constitute a breach of privilege, and in order to constitute intimidation it has to be proven,not beyond

April 18, 1978, Tape 1137, Page 2 -- apb MR. HICKMAN: all reasonable doubt, but it certainly has to be proven. Innuendoes, what someone may read into it1 depends upon the mind of the hearer and not upon the mind of the person who is giving it. There has to be some indication of motive and most assuredly the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) who raised the point of privilege and presented it did not discharge that onus that is imposed upon him, the very strict rules when one deals with privilege as opposed to points of order. That is number two.

Number one, was already dealt with, number two, that it is not intimidation. Thirdly, the point that it offends some alleged rules, that we do not have before us,of the Newfoundland Telephone Company speaks for itself and I will not pursue that any further. Fourthly, the comments in debate made by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition about the singling out and threathening and intimidating of a particular member, Mr.

Speaker, anyone who was present here and simply saw this information being tabled, which is the prerogative of any minister to do, he does not have to wait until he has been asked if it deals with the item before the Committee, and if it deals with the cost and the expenditure of government, then any hon. minister has the right, if he thinks it is in the interest of the Committee, to table it. He also has the prerogative not to table it.

One day ministers are being criticized for not tabling all the information; today one minister, namely the Hon. the Premier, is being criticized becaused he tabled a bit of information that was obviously relevant to the discussions of the Committee and relevant to the cost of operating the

April 18, 1978, Tape 1137, Page 3 -- apb MR. HICKMAN: government and the supply that is being sought by the government. Most assuredly, Mr. Speaker, it is not a matter of privilege, it is not even a point of order, it is a fact that has come out. If hon. gentlemen are going to raise points of privilege every time a bit of information comes out that they think is embarrassing, we will do nothing but deal with points of non-privilege within this House. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

SPEAKER: I point out to hon. members that I have heard the hon. gentleman who raised the point of privilege at some length, and the immediate reply by the hon. the Premier at some length, and then one from each side, again at some length- the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, the hon. Government House Leader.

I will hear some further submissions, not necessarily as long as hon. members wish to make them, I will hear some further ones but on these additional ones I would point out that many matters have been covered, and repeating matters already covered is of no benefit to the Chair and perhaps to anyone else, I do not know. It is certainly of no benefit to the Chair, so I ask hon. members now after we have heard four submissions in quite some detail to strictly confine their remarks to pertinent material and hopefully new or additional and not repetition.

I will hear the hen. member for Burgee - Bay d' Espoir followed by the hon. gentleman for St. John's East, and judge after that whether it will be necessary to hear anyone else. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I rise as a member of the House because this matter, I believe, is quite a grave issue. I submit, Mr. Speaker, that

Tape : o. 1D8 m!- 1 :ra. SIPiOll S: there is certainly intimidation e re. I £eel it . I am :lOt at all etubarrasse ci by ail:; t~ing t ".at l as be eil tab led. !'hac is oot t: e issue, dr . C~1airman . But I am intimidate d by t ile possibilitie s .

TI e P r emier has not ye t said ,a:l<i perh.l?S c:1e questi on cou· d be pu t to :1i1J1 eventuall y, as to ~-:; et!lt'lr i a sa\; anything exc ep t c.~e totals . , ow if we c ec: t h e :ranscr pts of tl e o c:1er :1.ig! t ;;he:~ :1e ·:a;; ailedge<ily spea king about Special -"ction Group - an d w;:at this has to r.io with c 1e Sp ec ial Action Group I do not !.:nm~ 1 but the t1inister of Justice suggests i t rloes - but Mr .

Speaker, if you chec k t h e transcripts of t he ot:1er ni3llc when the "'t"emie r was making reference to this point, - t:1ink !1e inferred at that ci.J:ae t hat h e ::ad subscanti.ally more information t han the totals . If i t were on-: t :le coca s I -;~ ould not be ;:articularly upse.c about t he issue . Anci perhaps in time he can ans·.•er t...'-le questi on , indee d ~o;i eche:z: ; e ~ as had access co aore informati on. And if he has had, :J.

Speaker, i.: ile has had one telephone number , one o ,ly, if 1e has only !:ad one t elep i oce numoer froc whi ch a call originated co me, irrespe ct ive of t ~ e mattzr I : . ow the tele phon e bi.!.l do es c o t cite any preci .se of the celep hone conversat i on but it does tall the origi!l.ating ~~e=, )~ . S~eaker - and if h e has one ni.I!Uber t:len that alone is grounds fo r intimidation .

That alone sugges t s that he . as .:.nfo r:nation 1: ic..'l could see;. to i:ltimiuate me or intimidate those who ·>~o ul d call ::ua a~out :m iss ue. ?: e Leader of t h e Op-position lias covc!:'ed t:u matte r f ai =l:,· W'ell so ! will not go over i t ex:::ep t to szy t ",at I ~e rt:a i:lly s !1are c!:le conce= t h at t here is the iJOs:;;ibili.ty ·, ere o f in t :!.:nidation . ::r. Speake r, what t: e ? -:em.ie r :as table:i toda7 re-e:lfo rces our concern ab out possible inti .mida t i o:l. l!e h.as not, 1: ,i : ~ I' I " ,. -:. ..

Ap:::il 18, 1978 Tape ao. 1138 ::-f.:l - 2 ~:R. SI:!l:O;;'S: Hr. Speaker, tabled the costs of telephones for each member of the House of AEsembly. He has not done that, !lr. S pea!;:er. (Inaudible) you all. :!R. RIDEOUT: Including the minister . :m. SDl::O~iS: ---·--- :lr. Speaker, I checked with the table iD. the last two or three minutes and they :1ad one document. Does the table have a second document since - A..~ HON. ~IE2!BER; No. ilo. :m.. si:rm~m: - containing all the Gembers of the government side of the House? :lot the ministers' thou2h. :·!R.

SI:ll:ONS: ------ ~ at th e ministers'. :JR. ::iOLA.'-1: ::ot the ministers' and not the Premier's. Order, please! I must point out that the hon. gentleman is repeating submissions which have already been made, and I did point out at the beginning, after heard t::m from each side at some length, that it Hould be improper for me to allow repetition of t:1e previous submissions • So I point this out to the )1on. 3entle~:~an and ask him to conclude his remar!r..s. l!~'t. SI~r:oas: ----- ~!r.

Speaker, I ~•auld like to see the information for each of the members,and that includes Cabinet Ministers icsofar as their district responsibilities are concerned, and until you have that you cannot do any fair conparison. I sub!llt, ::r. Speaker. in conclusion that this '-1as 'lone for one reason, very clear to !'le, it •vas done to inti!:!irlate. It served that purpose and I think c:1e Pre~ier needs to be disciplined accordingly for doing it. The hon. m~ber for St. John's East. ~!r. Spe.1l1:er > I ..... ,.ish to sc.y a fe~,.

"·tords 1 not O'P. the emotion<!l issues that :.ave occurred - and perhaps this mavbe should arise i=erliately after<vards as a separate poin~ of pri'1ile3e- l,ut I think perhaps it should be considered toget!ler. I "'an~ to voice

April 18, 1978 ~ape ~o . 1138 the object.ion over t he cortinuance of r,zisin:; ~oi.nts of privile ge in this :iouse f r om ti:::le t o t.ime w-Lc.:1out groundi ng it on the ba,;:l.s of any a utho rity or an;· authoritative quotations from 3aau che:>ne, ft"o::o c.:1e Staxing Or det"s, or fror.1 :·lay O·r dtat :tave you . ;,.11 it doc:;; , an..! ~ ll i .t has done ,is "reall y se=veci to <l.isrupt the u ~.:.siness of the proc eeciings of the :.toase . ~OH I h ave :~ot ~1eard j;eauc: 1esne (iUOt:ed ~ut I could draw Yout" ~o:~ou t" ' s attention to just a couple o: passages i::. ii:: .

Fit"st. o f all , "A question of pt"ivileg e ought rar ely t o up in !'arl!.a oen t. . " lc seeos to co'me up ;tere quite frequently . T:·tis i s paragt"a pil 113, Yout" iionour ; it goes on to s ay : ''!Sut a dispute a risin g bett:een two members, as t o allegations of facts , do es not fulfill th e conditions oi privile !;e . " It so es on in :!eauc!Jesne, :!r. Spea!::er, par.:12raph lO S, COII\inS back to paragrap h lOc , to say, ''Althou gh eitner :;ouse may expou:~d the la~.; of Parlia rnenc, aud indicate its owe privil eges, it is agreed : hat no ne'..: privileges can be creat:ed . " Ami t!lere is ·. ..

April 18, El78 Tape 1139 m;- 1 l'.P.. W. HARSllALL: set forth in the :ensuing paragrapns, 1U7, 1Ud, 103, 111, 112 and so on,exact and precise

definitions of what constitute points of privilege and what do not constitute point of privi­ leges. Now all we are ;;ctting from the i'Oints of privileges tnat have been rai.;ed~no matter how aggrieved :.on. mem.:>ers may feel from time to ti~e, is just getting up and making ·~lanket statements that privileges have been infringed tvithout any substantiation wnatsoever.

I feel that this is a wrong practice and cru1 only lead to , anu is in fact leading, to disrui'tion in tiLe House. ,;ow there is one other quotation,if I could find it nere,that I would like to draw to Your donor's attention Defore I sit down: "A matter of privilege also must be one wnich nas recently arisen involving t ile privileges of tne House and in calling fortn its immcniate interposition." .~ow this matter. arose, Hr. Speaker, either yesterday or the day berore,I do not know,and it was some- body rose on it at that pc.int of time.

Now my point that I am making is that this is a book that we have,here are the Standing Orders which we have 1May which we have;we hear points of order and points of privilege as have occurred here,no matter how aggreived hen. members may feel from time to time,without going back to authorities,without quoting the reasons for it,and this can only lead and is in fact contributing greatly and immensely to the disruption and the disgrace to which this House has descended. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, Hear! MR. SPEAKER: I will hear one further gentleman from each side.

I say that so th~t if hen. members wish thev agree among themselves tJhom it will be,and if they do not then obviously I exercise my prerogative. The hon. member for Conception Bay South. MR • J • NOLAN : Mr. Speaker, I was not in the House when situation arose the other evening as the Premier,who is always in the House 1 was very quick to point out earlier this afternoon. This is one thing that really bothers me and I am sure it must concern the Premier, .l il

April 18, 1978 Tape 1139 DW - 2 MR. J. NOUN: For example,the bon. the Premier is a gentleman who spent some time in the House of Commons,as did the Yinister of Fisheries.

I am subject to correction whether this matter ever arose at that time in connection with phone bills for any member of the House on either side,whether it was PC, NDP, Liberal, Social Credit or whateve~ HaEthis ever come up in any parliament anywhere at any time~ And not only that,I am sure that the hon. the Premier,if he is so interested in digging out information,would want it to be accurate.For example,let me say that in my own case,where I am now listed and I suppose I will be reported by the press as having spent $36.43 on long distance calls,that is inaccurate.I spent more than that. l!R.

MORGAN: You are not doing very mucl . MR. J. NOLAN: And so did many other members. For example,I noticed my friend from Burgeo has not got a cent charged to his name .1R. MORGAN : They do not phone for hi~. MR. J. NOUN: All I know is it may be charged to the - it was charged to the Opposition office. MR. SIMMONS: }!R. J. NOLAN: MR. SPEAKER: continue relevant to this point. MR. J. NOUN: I did not use my credit card. Mr. Speaker, could I please have silence? Order, please! I will ask the hon. gentleman to I am not interested in getting involved in a name-calling,cat-calling debate on this thing. l!R. J.

HORGAN: 1-'R. J . NOLAN : Your colleaguis. Now look if the Bonavista Barbie Doll wants to keep it up, Mr. Speaker,I am quite prepared to do so but I want silence. lffi. l~0P:_GA.l-l: Come on, Dancirg Dollars! MR. RIDEOUT: Name him, name him! Get clear of him~ .~ame him! SOME HON. l!EMBERS : Oh, Oh!

April 18, 1978 Tape 1139 DW - 3 MR. SPEAKER: Order, please ! I would ask no further interruptio~s. The bon. gentleman to my right to continue ~pointing out the stricture I made a few minutes ago . !hen I said I would hear one further bon. gentle­ man to my left if in factone wished to~ 1 would not insist anybody else speak,and that would be it. ~~. J. ~OLAN: Mr.

Speaker, again now that we have a list of the Opposition members,and t notice not the Cabinet ministers and not the Premier,we do not have their telephone bills,1 can only assume that pe rhaps all of this came up in a moment of real anger the other night and maybe that is why it came about. Perhaps under the Financial Administration Act and so on there may be verylvery good reason why this should go through Public '"orks or the !)apartm ent of Finance but it seellls to me that-and 1 am not going to say, Yr .

Speaker, 1 am not going to insist in any ·.;ay that the Premier is interested in intimidation or using confidential information to intimidate ~~~embers and so on. As a matter of fact , if any other member,perbaps~or lots of other members had brought this point up I perhaps could understand it.I cannot ..

April 18, 1978 Tape 1140 PK - 1 Mr. Nolan: members and so on, As a matter of fact, if any other member,perhaps, .or lots . of other members, had brought this point up I perhaps could understand it, I cannot understand the Premier doing it,knowing him as I do. That is the one thing that bothers me about this thing.

But the fact is that here we now have a situation where,whether it is right or wrong,there are people in this Province who may want to call the hon. the Premier tomorrow who may be reluctant to do so because of the fact that they now have this doubt instilled in their mind out of the debate that has com~ from this House. Now, Mr.

Speaker, it seems to me that we have a couple of things that we have to examine here, One is there any possibility of this matter being handled in future, although perhaps the damage has been done,through the Internal Economy Commission ·and therefore under the aegis of the hon. the Speaker, whom I would suggest none of us would question, obviously we have elected him to this position.

The second matter is this; I do not know exactly what transpired, whether the Premier himself went down to the Minister of Public Works; whether the Minister of Public Works,whoever it was at the time, went to the Premier; whether it was the Premier's Executive Assistant who went down and demanded certain information, whether there were calls to the Telephone Company. The telephone company is on trial here, Mr. Speaker.

And I suggest it is the business of this House to find out if the telephone company was involved in any way in providing information that they had no business doing, giving to the hon. the Premier or to the member of Conception Bay South or anyone else 1if it is a confidential matter. They operate in a monopolistic situation in this Province, and they avove all others must show beyond a shadow of a doubt that they can honour the trust that is has been placed in them. Now surely this matter is a most distasteful one. I do not know what prompted the hon. the Premier to do it,frankly. I do _, I

April 18, 1978 Tape 1140 PK - 2 MR. NOLAN: not know. I do not know. PREMIER MOORES: Oh, oh! Someone over there asked me in Committee. MR. NEARY: No, no, no, no. MR. LUSH: - to discredit members. MR. NEARY: It was the Minister of Transportation and Communications who raised it in the first place and then the Premier, in a rage,threw it down on the table of the House. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! We are really getting into - MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! We are getting into a quite peripheral matters now.

I would ask - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! NR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I would ask the hen. member for Conception Bay South to conclude his rPmarks. MR. NOLAN: Well,I only want to say that for me as a member of the House of Assembly that this is a most unfortunate day. And I believe that all hon. members,if they will put aside for a moment their blatant partisanship which we are guilty of from time to time, that this is something if we let it continue in this vein, in this light, it may be a threat to me today but I will guarantee you that it will nail you tomorrow._And the people will not be well served.

If anyone is abusing this situation for God's sake let us settle it, but do not blanket everyone here as though we are a bunch of crooks, because we are not. And I am speaking for members on both sides of the House. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NOLAN: It is a shame, Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: I have indic at ed that I will hear- I will keep the number of submission even on both side s - chat I will hear one hon. gentleman to my left, the han. member for St. John's North. I will not hear any further submissions then.

I will point out if hon. members, any hon, members on either side, f eel that they have a point or a submission or an argument or an authorit y or a citation which be of help in giving my decision on this matter,certainly I will be pleased to receive it in l I i I i .!

April 18, 1978 Tape 1140 PK - 3 Mr. Speaker; private; send me a note or give it to me orally. I would ask them to do that ' within an hour after I leave the Chair, within an hour, because I hope to have the matter resolved later today. So after I leave the Chair if there are any hon. members who have some citation or argument or submission they wish to give,I would ask them to give it to me within an hour after I leave the Chair. The hon, member for St. John's North. MR. J. CARTER: Mr.

Speaker, the following points should be noted~ all long distance calls,either charged to a credit card or to another phone or where the charges are reversed are recorded on the bilL And this is the way it is, and this bill is paid by Public Works. This is the arrangement we have. Public Works funds are voted in this Rouse, and funds voted in this Rouse are public. Therefore - SOl-IE RON. !-'El-IBERf : Oh, oh! MR. J. CARTER~ - therefore, Mr. Speaker, - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. J. CARTER: If I could be heard in silence, Mr. Speaker. Therefore unless trunk lines are used, Mr.

Speaker, this is the way it is. -Fhone calls that are made and charged to our credit cards are public information. This is the way the telephone system works. And unless we use trunk lines or carrier pigeons or perhaps stool pigeons there is no way of keeping confidentiality. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! • I ., I I

April lii,l978 Tape :~o 1141 Ail-1 ;'JR SPEAKER: I did indicate to the hon. gentleman that if it is on the same matter <lhat my decision was. I realize that the hon. gentleman has been standing some time~and I would certainly be pleased to hear a sub:nission from the hon. gentleman or anyone else in private, but I have heard a lot of submission on it, forty-five minutes,and I really think it would be a dangerous precede>J.t to allow it to go any further. I understand hm~ the i1on. gentleman feels ana I trust he underst~nds :ny position as well.

I did state that I '.vould not hear any further submissions, I have emleavored to keep the numoer of submissions even on both sides of the House, If I hear an additional one to my right I am in fairness required to hear an a<.lditional one to my left if anybody rises. However,I will certainly be pleased to hear from the hon. gentle:uen a submission in private. liR. ',./lUTE: Well,on a point of inforo.ation, Xr. Speaker, The fact of the matter is that my name appears here on this list with ~ $3,000 charge appearing after it.

There are a lot of hon. members nere who have made phone calls and there is no amount appearing after their names. I think it should be clarified here in the House as to why some members have made phone calls and some members have not or under wnich category their name falls. From the point of view of my constituents that does not bother me in the least,but from the puint of vi~w of ~y position here in the neuse I certainly want this Ulatter clarified, It is totally confusing. It appears that some members ;lave made phone calls by usin~; their credit card .md sor.1e obviously Jo not use t.1eir credit ca.nl.

So :Ir. Speaker, tais is a very important matter and I would su,;gest ::.:1at every single .:aenber of this liouse i.>e iteard on this ::latter. :w.. SPEAKER: Well , I :1~arcl tl1e hou gentleman on a point of infom<>tion. I will be pleaseu to n~ar fro.n any i1on. member privately but I Jo aave to - ;.iR_. CALUI~): I ha'Te a poi..."lt of information as well. .I •.

April 13, 1973 Tape ~o . 1141 I ilave .:.ade ;:J'j ::ul~g. As I say I will see anv hon. c;ent le= • any priva te sub-:rlssion has the sa::.e authoritY or persuasive:::ess as hearinc; it publically . ~li\ . W"dltt:; It is being rej)oned pui>lically , :·ir , S?eaker • :m. SPEAK.E:t; I realize t .l3.t 1 out ~4e cio have precedents .

I :1ave lt~urd and I think gra:1ted quite some leeway in hearing t!le sub:uissious , I realize it is ~ Uaportant ~atre r,an d I think I nave c;iven a c;enerc us rather than a restrictive ir. t erj>retat.l.on of c:~e r~.:les , and :1avins done that I can only use ~Y o~ judg~ent , ~ own ciiscrecion . I ~o that and now call St a t enents by :·i.i.niscers . ;·!R , SPEAKER: )!R. \~ • .ROw"E: Hon. Leader of the Opposition . I do not •ant to test ...

April 18, 1978 Tape 1142 EC - 1 HR. "· N. ROWE: the patience or the indulgence of the Speaker, because, Sir, you are held in esteem in the House on both sides. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. W. N.

ROUE: But, Sir, I rise on another point of privilege, a point of privilege which arises, Sir, as a result of the information tabled by the Premier of this Province subsequent to the time that I rose to make my submission on the original point of privilege and therefore had no opportunity to speak to this matter which is now before the House, as I would submit, Your Honour, is the case with my hon. friend who just spoke and my hon. friend who wanted to speak a moment ago.

We have had laid on the table of this House to be promulgated by the press of this Province as public documents, Sir, information which is totally false and misleading. A!1 RON. HE}!BER: And inaccurate - ·I ~fR. Ttl. N. ROHE: Inaccurate. And that is the I subject matter of my point of privilege. I had hoped to have risen this matter again on the original point of privilege, but, Sir, I cannot,as a member of this House, sit here and see this inaccurate information put forward .I -I by a ?remier who has already breached, apparently, the privileges of this House, and this is another breach of the privilege.

What I am saying, Sir, is this; I know from first hand knowledge that the hon. member for Windsor- Bu=hans (Mr. Flight), Sir, has spent hundreds of dollars of public money making 'phone calls, on his credit card and on the Opposition 'phone,to his district and from his district carrying out his public duties. I know that, Sir~ he knows it, and not a cent appears opposite his name on this public document.

April 18, 1978 Tape 1142 EC - 2 MR. FLIGHT: Three thousand dollars for the year. MR. W. N. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I am here listed as opposite a number, 018-0408, as having spent $119 of public money making 'phone calls. Sir, I would vouchsafe that I spent several thousand dollars on 'phone calls since becoming a member of this House and I would be unworthy of my position had I not done so, the 'phone calls that I am making day and night, Mr. Speaker.

Now, down below here it says, Liberal Opposition Office, 737-3393, There is an amount of money charged to that, $103,000, but Sir, I have never made a 'phone call on that particular number. I usually use my credit card. If I charge it to another number it is 737-3390 or 737-3391. That number does not appear apparently, on this bit of paper. What I am saying, Sir, is that there may be some reasonable explanation for it, but,on the face of it, we have been abused in this House by the Premier tabling wrong information. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. W. N. ROWE: privilege as well - SOKE RON. MEMBERS: MR. W. N.

ROWE: Hear, hear! And, Sir, that is a point of Hear, hear! - which can be added to, I would submit, Sir, I would say it could be added to the original point of privilege as additional information for Your Honour of the way this House has been abused by Her Majesty's ministry. HR. SPEAKER: Before recognizing the hon. the Government House Leader, I will point out that I will regard the matter brought up by the han. the Leader of the Opposition as a separate, distinct point of privilege. Obviously it is related, but it is separate and distinct

April 18, 1978 Tape 1142 EC - 3 MR. SPEAKER: and it was recognized on a separate point of privilege. I say that for more than semantic reasons, because the only other possibility would be that having made a decision to go on, I altered it. This is in its own merit a separate point on which a decision will have to be made. The hon. the Government House Leader. MR. HICKHAN: Mr. Speaker, this second alleged point of privilege points out so clearly and corroborates so clearly the comments . made by the hon. the member for St. John's East (Mr.

Marshall) that the point of privilege in this House is being shockingly abused. This is no more a point of privilege than it is a so-called point of information. SOME RON. SEXBERS: l1R. SPEAKER: MR. HICJ:Qo!AN: privilege - SO~E RON. ME~BERS: XR. rtiCK!·!AN: Oh, oh! Order, please! Mr. Speaker, the question of Oh, oh! ~m I going to be per~itted to have the same courtesy extended that this side of the House has extended to the other side of the House? HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I must insist that there be no interruptions. HR. HICK~lAN: Mr.

Speaker, if Your Honour uishes I can once again cite the appropriate sections of Beauchesne,which were already cited by the bon. the oember for St. John's East, which say~ that a dispute arising between two members as to allegations of fact do not fulfil the conditions of parliamentary privilege, nor, ~r. Spaaker, does this submission now made by the hen. the Leader of the Opposition come even close to falling within

April 18, 1978 Tape 1142 EC - 4 MR. RICKMAN: any of the categories listed or set forth in Beauchesne as constituting a breach of privilege of the House. It is at the very most a difference of opinion on - AN RON. MEMBER: Information. MR. HICKUAN: - information tabled in the House. And if any han. gentleman on either side of the House tables information, he can be subject at the appropriate time to questions to verify what is contained therein. And if any han. gentleman in the House comes to the conclusion that there is a different

interpretation that can be placed on information that has been filed in the Rouse than that which has been placed on it in the past, he or she has an absolute right to rise in the House and say, This is my

interpretation. But it is not a question of privilege. It could not conceivably fall into the question of privilege. It most assuredly is not misleading the House or lying to the House. And not falling into any of these categories, but mainly because some hon. gentleman oppsite says that 'As my name was not shown opposite any particular number as having had any telephone calls, therefore there is an attempt to mislead the House; this is absolute nonsense, ~r. Speaker. And if the time of this House is going to be taken up in using points of privilege when they are not points of privilege, then, Mr.

Speaker, this House cannot conceivably do the work for which it set up to do or the work that I might remember that some hon. gentlemen were screaming in January and February that should be done so we could ...

April 18, 1978 Tape No. 1143 Nlf - 1 ~ffi. HICK!Lo\;.1': debate the great issues before the Province . They have not raised one yet, not one. :rr .. SPEAKER: Order, please! Again b~fore recognizing other hen. members I will point out that I have heard the hen. gentleman who raised this point of privilege and t:,,: i=ediate reply by the hen.

Govern!uent ;{ouse Leader ••ith a generous interpretatior:. of the rules.I :~ill now insist t!1at others speaking to it confine themselves entirely to the point at issue, which is an allegation of a breach of privilege because information tabled in the neuse is allegedly inaccurate. So I Hill remintl. all hen. gentlemen to keep their remarks brief and strictly to that point. The hen. !llember for Port au Port. l~. J. '!ODDER: ~:r. Speaker, my name appears here, and there is a figure beside it, $664.~0. :~ow, :!r. Speaker, I use my credit card all the time. I do not use the 737-3393 except when I am here in St.

John's. If my constituents ~1ere to find out that $664. S'O when I have to go through about tl1ree telep:1one exchanges when I am at hone and then dealing '~ith the various governnent departments, if ~y constituents were to find out that I only spent that aU!Ount of money I think t!l.ey would think there "as something wrong 1:ith me. That, I submit, l·!r. Speaker, is an incorrect amount.

It is more li!~e a monthly charge rather than a yearly charge,and yet at the top of this sheet it says that these are telephone costs frotil February 7, 1977 to Fe~Jruary 1973, and it is not a correct figures and I have ~een signing my credit card telephone bills each month since I have been elected. .,, --.1:\.. SPEAXER: :~EARY: The hen. member for LaPoile. :rr. Speaker, I too ,.7ould lil~e to correct, Sir. something on this sheet that "as tabled i::1. the :louse today by the 'hen. the Premier ,.;hich is nisleading.

I cannot say t:he Pre.':lie::: deliberately set out to mislead the ~ouse, but it is not true, Sir, it is ~isleading,

April 18, 1978 Tape :-lo. 1143 ~f.l - 2 :::R. ~lE.!u<.Y: it is false infornation. It says that, U."lder ::~y name, 018-0352, $5,656.45, and then dmm below it says, includes local service. Hell, Sir, I just pointed out to the ~ouse a few moments ago that I do not use a credit card, that I use the telephone number do'vn in the office, so that information there,Ol3-0352,is false and ~isleadin~ information. lmd I = prepared, l·!r. Speaker, to have my telephone bills put on the t2ble of the 'Oouse. There is nothing to be ashamed of. I ba:ve nothing to hide. tUl other members should be prepared to do the same thing.

Hy telephone bills can be put on the table of the House for inspection by 211 members in this han. House, and the taxpayers if they want to leo~ at it. So, Hr. Speaker, I ~;ould lil~e to have that !>latter c!1ecked into by Yollr iionour because this is another e;{ample of a breac:1 of privilege of this House, something t:1at Your ;ro:-.cur has to remedy. I do not know what it is but in both cases, Sir, I presume that me~bers are prepared to ma~e substantive motions to l:.ave the people "'ho are giving the ilouse this false w:d misleading inforwation, to have them severely reprimanded. :!R.

SP EAl:.ER: The han. member for Terra llova, follo~: ed oy the !1on. w.ec:~ber for :3aie 'ierte - :ihite 3ay. :;p_. LUSH: Again, Hr. Speaker, I just wai!t to refer to the inaccuracy of this information and point out again if the information is to be made public that it indeed be accurate and as the han. metuber for LaPoile (:.r. i;eary) said, he did not object to this ~.o e5. ng public information, neither do I. I a.o. not at all concerned about this being made public other than '"hen it is that it :,e accurate information.

In my O•rin case, I use a credit card ninetv per cent of t:1e time and as •,;as suggested by some ot!1er :10n. ;:~ember previously, this looks in my case to be more of a mont :,ly charge than a yearly charge. :IR. ?.OEE:?..TS: -------- Daily perhaps. :2. u;s:-r: i~o, I would not ~;o that far.

April lS, 197S Ta;:e 1-lo. 1143 ~ . <.usa.: A:ld the oth er t;~in& is, :rr. Speaker, the nulllber us ed hera,OlS -03 57, is jUst a :~u:ni>cr that was used si.nce th e Ne~1 Year. That is r ight . t!R. Lt:S!!: Jus t since Januar y of t his yea r. I :1ad another OU!I'.!Jer from February up until January . This :lun!>ar h ere , ou:-0357 , ~>•as a number chat 1 re~ived only in Janu ary . 3o, 1·ir . Speaker, certa inly t his is rrl:;lead.ing inf ormac ion and as ! a<Jve said \)efore, I Jc not objec t to chis kind of informa~ion bei ng made available to tue public , ~u t ~f it is , let us ensure that it is accurate. HR.

SPEAKER: liR. RIDEOUT: The bon. memi)er fo r Eaie \'e rte - Hhi::e ::; ~ y . :1r.

Speaker, in :~eeping t.-1. t h Your :Iono ur · s reques t that I !>e ::o the poin t , I wil l be very ~rief . r jus t want to say again that the number opposite ~y ~e is one that I have only ~een given since Janua r y , so the $242 . 00 t."'lat is next to th a t number is ceruinly no-where close to the a:::ount of charges asainst my cre di t car d . r:.,e .other poi nt I Nan:: to say is that I live<l C?ver; day L"l my district fo r about seven non t hs of th~ yea r and I ::ould rather see $6, 1)00 or $7,000 af ~er :;;y :w::~ e beca use, Your !lonour, that is clos er t o • .,.il.at i t is , not the $::42 for onlj· a couple of ~nt:~s .

So it is de:i:litely mis lC?ad i~g. d efi~itely inaccu rat e and if 1"e are go i ng to have the informa t ion : or ileaven sa!~e let us ~ave t he right info:;:-::~ation .

April 18,1978 Tape No. 1144 AH-1 HR. SPEAKER: I will hear the three hon. gentleman who are now standing and t~en I will cut if off. Hon. ~inister of Tourism. l·!R. :OIORGA.~: ~rr. Speaker, the arguments being put forward by the spokesman on the other side are to the effect that the information now tabled is not correct. Well,the situation is that the taxpayers of this Province have paid the Newfoundland Telepuone Company through the Department of Public \Iorks a total of $128,000 for twenty merabers of the Opposition and a total of $31,000 for thirteen raembers on this side of the House of Assembly.

T;lese payments have been made, l-'.r. Speaker - SOifE HON. :1E~1BERS: Oh, oh! ~IR. :-rORGAJ.'I: If I could Get some order, Hr. Speaker. l•!R, SPEAKER: Order, please! ~IR. :!ORGAN: Mr. Speaker, these payments have oeen made to ~ in this case,a private company, Newfoundland Telephone Company by means of charges made both through two sources; number one .1 through credit card charges and,number two,through the use of two telephone numbers, one being 737-3400,which is the goverr~ent side of the House of Assembly, and the oti1er is the telephone nwabers 737-3393, which is the telephone number of the Opposition.

Now wna t I ai!l saying, l-Ir. Speaker, is that because the company concerned is being paid by the taxpayer's dollars and because the information is being supplied to the House of Assembly from the source that pays the company concerned,at this ti:ne I am firmly convinced that the information is correct. SOilE HON. ~fE~!BERS: Oh, oh! ~!R. SPE.\KER: rne hon. member for Lewisporte followed ~y t:1e i1on. mer~ber for Bellevue and that will be the end of it. dr. Sp~aker, I just '~ant to m:J.~e a couple of poillt:S _,·it!~ respect to - if I have aay protectior:. as a me.rnbex of tile house.

I = a bit confused »'itl: respect to t;1is i~atter since tht info=aticn giver:. today, and I illil sure Your tionour car-, see the inaccuracy of the ;;;" f I I I ..

April 18,1973 Tape :<o. 1144 AH-2 ;.IR. wRITE: information because the info=ation is inaccurate by omission, }k. Speaker. We are talking about fifty-one members nere in the House ;.;no presumably nave equal rights as lllembers, we are all elected in our constituents and we come here to serve, Yet i·rr. Speaker, the na;nes of ministers and the telephone calls they made, whether for political·purposes or on government business,have not been tabulated here so the mer.1bers who are not in Cabinet are being discriminated against in that sense. ;.tr.

Speaker, one also ilaS to look at tile fact tJ.at a number of members from the oti1er side of the l·;ouse .::re living in St. John's in their districts '.vhere the main offices and L'le main Civil Service staff are located in ~lewfoundland and therefore :.ave no occasion to call long distance. I would like to make tnat point, Hr. Speaker, because it is very importa."1.t. It is also important to note , :k. Speaker, that a number of members on this side live in St.

John's but not in their districts, as I do,and therefore ;,;nen they call their districts they call their districts on the Opposition telephone downstairs, a.nL when t:1ey want to call Civil Servants when the iiouse is not in session they can do it from their office which is located in Confederation Building,I on the other hand, trr. Speaker, must receive a collect call from somewhere in my district, one ·~ 0.<. L1e twenty communities,ana then must make another credit card call to St.

Joim's to get the problem solved,and then another call,which I charge to the credit carct,back to my constituent. ,',.;~ HO"'. :-IEHBER: That is right. i!R. \{"t!ITE: So I feel, :·tr. Speaker, that is is very importai..t t:i~at this .aatter be clarified now, It bothers me:, I am not sure what terus of reference I should lle using in respect to making telephone calls.

If my wife is in Lewisporte and I want to find out whether or not t;1e:-e are messages for me at r.JY house ,because thac is ;ny office since the gover-:J..neat will not gee me an office in Lewisporte, then ~ I dllowed to call my wife in Lewisporte to get messages? Surely this riouse has some kind of ..

.;FRIL 18 , 1978 Tap e ::o. ll44 AH- 3 :1R. \fniTJ: : respo nsibility to give ter :ns of referenc e to tne members of it. Eit ner that or '"'e are c;o.i~g to be create :! like cnildran,o r respo os ibla mcm w"ho are elected by the peop le of Nevlfound land . And I am not satisfied , Nr . SpenY.er , .to sit hare ln t his House and be intLaina t ed , 1 ~an t the protectio n of t he Chair in this case , the prot ec tion of ~lr. Speake r ,and I c;link t;lis matter si:o uld be hand led totall y anc cxclusive1y by ~:r . Speaker and not by :;overnoent :net:be r s •·ho by - Hear, hear!

S0.·1E UON. :·IE~!.BERS: :m. wlliTE : ~Nho by complete partisanship have a vested interested in t ryin~ to make it a?pear to peop le on this side of the liouse and make it appear to the people of ~ ewfoundland t hat we are deliberately abusin& public funds . SOHE HON. ~IE~lliE~S : liear , ilear! :iR. :!ORCA;.;: (Inaudible) :-!R.. ;\E.\iW : tolhy a'!'e you not dovn 1nspectin8 you :: tave::n in a gove l'ruocnt helicopte r ? :-LR. l~iiTE : :.JR. !l'EARY: ~·U . S?E:J~ : S;lUt up and go il0111e. '.Tc do no t use .lclico?t ers to inspec t .. n.;r c luas . v rder . plca,; e! '!:he final suon.1s::;ion .

The ac:l. :seubc r for 1:ell<!vue • . lr. Sr-ea.kar , wos t of tne points tha :: I. h.::tt! in ci.• d I chink •l<:.ve .::tlr e ady ~cen m~n ~i oned . l diu W.lllt co .iraw <1t::ention to t•lC fact ::h;~c at least o:1c Opposicioo o::e.•ber 1000 re?r<!sancs one town, a ru::al to\ffi , :1oc St . Joha ' s , ~u t one rur.1l town, his tel<!phou e uill is five t~cs as muc ~ - well , a~ost ..

pril 18, 1978 Tape 1145 PK - 1 Mr. Callan: five times as much as mine and I represent thirty- six towns in my district. So, Mr. Speaker, I hope that the press when they report this will report it in the light that it should be seen in. But obviously,st. John's members should not have any long distance calls at all. They do not have to phone the Gander Employment Office,as I do. And they do not have to phone the Welfare Office at Arnold's Cove or Whitbourne or anywhere else,as I do. They do not have to phone Ottawa looking for a federal wharf,as I do, and all the other things that we have to do. But, Mr.

Speaker, most of these points have been covered. All I want to do is ask a simple question by way of information; Can it be assumed that our credit card numbers will be changed as of today? The fact is they are made public now and I would not want somebody out in the general public charging a call to my credit card number~ SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 0 0 0 MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Conception Bay South. HR. NOLAN: Mr.

Speaker, I have no petition; Why I rise is I would like to extend my congratulations, and I am sure all members of the House,to an han. member who participated in a certain event yesterday, and if I had your permission I would like to do so. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! AN RON. MEMBER: It was done last night. MR. NOLAN: Pardon? AN RON. MEMBER: It was done last ni~ht. MR. NOLAN: It was done last right? I am sorry. ANSWERS TO OUEST_IONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, I table the answer to Question No, 43 asked on the 22nd. day of March , 1978. ~·

.. April 18, 1978 Tape 1145 PK - 2 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. W. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I wanted to direct a question to the Minister of Health because it involves drugs and medication and so on, but he does not seem to be in his seat again. I will therefore direct it to the han. Minister of Social Services since it involves his department as well.

I understand the minister and some of his colleagues were visited by the representatives of a Federation of Senior Citizens and Pensioners, looking for a commitment from the government on this whole vexatious question to them, Sir, of whether the government is going to bring in a plan to pay for the drugs and medication of our senior citizens so that they do not have to go without some of the necessities of life in order to, in some cases, spend a great proportion of their incomes, usually low or usually fixed,Jn something as costly as drugs and medication .

Now, Sir, we were visited by the same group and had the brief submitted to us. What I would like to ask the minister is will the minister indicate publicly whether or not he has made a commitment to bring in legislation, the legislation necessary, to allow the senior citizens of this Province, Sir, to have the dignity of having their medication and drugs,particul~rly in chronic cases,paid for at least to a high rate substantially by the government of this Province? In other words, Sir, really the incorporation of MR. NEARY: Pharmicare. MR. W. 1ROWE: - Medicare or Pharmicare into our Medicare programme.

A programme of Pharmicare for our senior citizens. SONE RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Social Services. MR. C. BRETT: Mr. Speaker, I was Chairman of a committee of ministers who met with the delegation this morning. And they presented a ;,'

April 18, 1978 Tape ll45 PK - 3 Mr. Brett: brief to government which,in essence,requested free drugs for senior citizens. Very simply the answer to the hon. member' s question is, n.o . We will not be introducing legislation in this session of the House. But I am very pleased to be able to tell him that government is looking at an overall ?rogramme of both social services and health services to senior citizens. This particular item of need would cost the Province right no~ approximately $1.8 million 1 ano as the member knows that amount is not in the Budget this year.

However, as I said,we are looking at an overall programme, and just recently, something like two months ago , my deputy minister visited Manitoba ) - ' , r .! ., ..

April 18, 1978 Tape ~lo. 1146 ~IR. B:!lliTT: where they have an e:tcellent programme for social services and health services to senior citizens and he has brought back a complete report. He are taking a very serious look at it and I am sure that Hith block funding, ,,;-1ich is no~7 in effect, it may be possible to implement some ?erts of th:lt p!:ogr:l!!II:le ~~hich is now in effect in '!anitoba. But ~-7e '·rill not be introducing le3islation this year. No. ~IR. W.:i. ROI.JI:: A supplementary. A supplementary, the original ques tior.er.

The minister has indicated c1e has given no co=itment to the group •>ho visited ilim today. The minister has given no commitLlr:.ut to the group who visited him today or otherwise to ti1e public, that the gover=ent is going to bring in this kind of a progra=e. Now let me as;,. the c<ini.ster ti1is supplementary question . . Is the minister telling me, and this Iiouse, that for the amount, $1.3 oillion, less money,in ot:1er words, that it :1as been 1.;asted in the l:1st tiuee or four ·.1onths on the Action Group, $2 million- is he telling me t:1at the $2 million -· H:l .. :nc<;.:!Ai.L l·IR.

SPEAKER: ;:r:.. iiiGK:!&'<: A point of order. A point of crG.er has come up . Hr. Speaker, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition is entering into debate ~'hich is most definitely precluded under question. :lR. SPEAKER: Tile point made is certainly a valid one . The hen. gentleman may not enter into debate. :·IT'.. \1. :~. ROI·TE: :·Tell, fine ,~~r. Speaker, I respect Your Honour's ruling and I ~1ill not enter into debate.

Let ;::e ask the minister, is it true that the $1.8 million, or less than $2 million, the ar,10unt Hhich is equivalent to the amount being spent on the .\ction Group, '"auld in fact cover the cost of a phar!'licare progra=e for the senior citizens of ~his ::'rovince? Is ::hat correct -rnat I am saying, $1. 8 will ion for a year would cover ;:>:.::rmcare for the people over sixty· ·five years of age in the Province of ;-!e<>foundland anu LabraJor? ..

April 18, l97S :IR. SPE.A!~R: :ZR. BRETT: The hon . :·finis ter of Social Services . :1r. Spea<-er, this govern."llent has just ~:- 2 introduced , quite recently, a ne~' regula t ion, the Social Assistance ~egulations , for it~ of special need for senior citizens ~hie~ could concciva~ly cost ~~is Province an ~wful lot core thnn $1.8 t:dllion, ani : ~is ~e~ ~ e~ulacio~ will e~ble sen!or citizens to buy drugs ii necessary.

If there is a !>Enior citizen in this Provin ce : oday - ~·iha t is tl•e reaulation? - tiho canr:ot afforC: to buy drugs, and ii drugs are necessary , t!len t her e is a pt06t"atlllle to t:ll~ care of sue.~ a person. Publicize it. ::::> •• 3P.!:TT: It is pu~licized , of course it ~s publicized. So in actual fact there is no one in this Province suffering for the ~ant of drugs . ~. ~AR"i: '·~ . ~: . r.c:-;r:: ·~ere you lco!ting at televisi on last night? A supplementary. A supplementary, the origi~ questioner. •.,'hat is tl1.a t:dnister sayin&?

Je is ::all:ing about a we lf~re programme, is ~e? ::R. 3RETT: :~e l l 1:hat are yo u talking about? Ar e you not tal~·dn:; about a '-:elfa r e pro:ramme? ~o, !~r. Spe.aker. 'oiell~"·ho is goinz to pay :or i:? ~:o , :!r. Sreal:er, I ~::;, ::al::i.-.g about a uni·,ersal 'les, •f.10 is I;Oinl; tO ray for it? :~ .. ··1. :~. ~~i!: Let us take t~e $2 :nillion, ~::r . S?ea~:cr, thet is 'leing squandered for ~olitical purposes, the .\cticc Grour-, a~d ?3Y for p;13rcicare !or the peo?le of this ProVince . ...

''pril 18, 1978 P~ITE!'. l!'JORES : ~[R. SPEAKER: Tape No. 1146 Order, please! A point of order. A point of order. PREl!.IER ~OOP.ES : If the han. Leader of the Oppo~ition can read he ,.,.ill see the Action Group 1>1as $1.076 r.~illion and not $2 million. It was $1.3 a minute azo, it is $2 million now. :rn.._.l'L_.N. !'.OHE: $2 million, PREYJ_ER '!OO!tES: _ If he would learn how to read ~JR. NEARY: ;Hxon kno,.;s the difference of that. :!R. Sl'EAXER: Order, please! liR. :~EARY: Sit Jown 1:iixon. :JR.

SPEAXER: The ilDn. gentleman in asking question.; should a·J'oid arg=ent and debate and the only information really that should be in question is what is required to make the question understandable. I t:1inl' t:1at this is particularly true •,rith supple!'lentaries, supplementary being defined as a question which arises out of the ansHer. So I ,.,ould point out t.'lat I think 1dth respect to supplecentaries that should really have a stricter application. T.:le hon. member 0:,..-iilliu.gate. Than!' you for tl1at ruling, Sir.

I would also ask Your Honour to rigourously adhere to t:le rule that no minister or member is allowed to abuse the point of order privileges, to get up and make a speech on a point of fact, Hr. Speaker, as the Pr~ier just did.

X ow the point I am making, Sir, is t:1at in the last two or three ;nonths, a question I am asking, in tHO or three wonths since the Action Group was instituted, and for this remaining financial year, in other worC.s for fourteen mont:1s or so, $2 willian of public money is being squandered anci ~·Jhat I •·ant to find out from t:-,e :1on. i[inister of Social Services is :,;ilet:1er I ~.;as right i~. asking if that amount of money was transferred to a pharmi-care programme it w-oulcl in fact cover it.

No•,r he i1as inclicated that i!: · . .;oulc, :lr. speaker. :lm; ,._,hat I c.; ant to ask him furt:,.er, by way of supplements.ry, is tilis, is there a programme for the - not for tile people w:lD are on welfare ::r. S~c.:ll:~r! rrho ~un :-tave t1lin~s ?O.id for, 710t f·::>r the reopl~ l•il:O ::!ay ill'

April 18, 1978 Tape 114 7 EC - 1 MR. W. N. ROlvE: have their insurance programmes which will pay for the drugs. I am talking about the people in the middle, Mr. Speaker, the working poor in the case of working people, people on low incomes with large families, and in the case of the elderly people, people with small incomes, not necessarily on welfare, but who have old age pensions who have to spend a substantial amount - $100 a month,for example - on medication because they are chronic users under doctor's prescription of drugs and medication for some illness or other.

Hhat I am asking is, Is the minister trying to tell this House that there is a programme in existence now which is in the nature of a family care programme or is ~t an extension of the normal social service welfare programme whereby indigent people or people on ver y low incomes or no incomes at all can have drugs paid for by the Department of Social Services? What exactly is he telling the House? HR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Social Services. M.R. BRETT: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is well aware of the fact that there is no family care programme as such in effect in this Province.

He is very much aware of that. He is also very much aware of the fact that there is no person in this Province that shall suffer for the need of drugs. If there is any person in this Province who cannot afford to buy drugs, then my department will buy the drugs for them, HR. IL N. ROWE : HR. SPEAKER: Any indigent people can receive drugs. A supplementary, Mr . Speaker. A supplementar y by the original questioner, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

April 18, 1978 Tape 1147 EC - 2 MR. 1~. N. ROWE : Did I hear the minister correctly that the minister is stating publicly here now that no person - he did not say indigent, except at the very tail end. Well, indigent, Mr. Speaker, there are people who can suffer financially and not be completely pennyless.

I am asking the minister if I heard him correctly w~en he said that no person in this Province is suffering today, any chronic drug user, user of medication or prescription, suffers today financially because of the fact that he has to use drugs chronically any elderly person, senior citizen has to use drugs, he does not suffer financially 1 is that what the minister is telling this Rouse1 UR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Social Services. MR.7. ~. ROWE: We will state it again. MR. BRETT: No, Mr. Speaker, I did not say that any person who is suffering financially.

What I said was that no person who is suffering physically as a result of not being able to get drugs - AN RON. MEMBER: That is all wrong. HR. BRETT: - and the han. member is aware that any indigent person in this Province who ~ants drugs can get them. ~:R. H. N. RO,·lE: ~1R. SPEAKER: A supplementary. A final supplementary, then I will recognize the hon. the member for Conception Bay South on another line of questioning. MR . T~. N. ROWE : We are not talking about indigence, Mr. Speaker. I want to see, Sir, how the minister perceives his duty to the people of this Province.

If •omebody has $400 a month co~ing in in inco~e from pensionR - old age pensions .I ..

April 18, 1978 Tape 1147 EC - 3 MR. W. Il. RO\iE: and otherwise, supplements and other sources, he and his wife -and has to spend $125 on drugs or medication during that month~ or $100, for example, is he considere~ to be indigent or is that an acceptable expenditure of money on drugs proportionate to his income in the eyes of the minister? HR. SPEAKER: The hen. the ~inister of Social Services. MR. BRETT: Mr. Speaker, a person receiving $400 a month, living in the city of St. John's or in an urban area,could very well be an indigent,

whereas a person living on Random Island in Trinity North receiving $400 a month may not be an indigent. It depends on where the person lives in the Province. Conceivably a person who lives in a rural area does not need the same amount of money to live as a person in,say, an urban area. AN RON. HE!-fBER: (Inaudible) MR. BRETT: That is right, exactly. Most people in rural Newfoundland OHn their own homes and therefore they do not have the added expense of having to pay rent.

A.nd also in the cities it is more than likely they ~•ould have to burn either oil or electricity, so, you know, there is no comparison in the two. But in any case I repeat what I said, that any indigent person in this Province can receive fre.:> drugs. HR. SPEAKER: Conception Bay South. MR. NOLAN: The hen. the member for Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask a question of the Minister of Social Services. On CBC television last evening, Here and Now, a lady from the West Coast, Deer Lake, appeared and stated quite simply 7 as did the broadcaster who

April 18, 1978 Tape 1147 EC - 4 HR . NOLAN: ~as involved, that she was suffering medically becau se she was not able co take advantage of the p-roper nut-ritional diet. c.ot onl y d id she say it, and the broadcaster, but also her physician said so. She is a -recipient of social services. From the information div u lged in th e p-rogramme it would appear that an additional $50 a month would suffice. She applied for it and was turned down. I believe a gentleman by the name of Smith who is I l .I

April 18, 1978 Tape 1148 DW - 1 MR. J. NOLAN: in the service of the department was consulted.Now what I would like to know is since we have the physicia~'s public demonstration of his concern for this lady. The minister also appeared on the program.What is the situation regarding that lady as of this moment? MR. SPEAKER: The hen. Minister of Social Services. MR. C. BRETT: Let me say at the outset, Mr. Speaker, that it is very unfortunate that cases like this come out in the public - SO~ RON • Mm:BERS : Oh,Oh! MP. C. BPETT: No,just a minute now.

I have always tried to keep individual cases away from the press and from the public, because sometimes it ~an be very embarrassing-not for that reason. But this is a rather sad case,it is true. That lady orignally lived in Grand Falls.! think,and then moved to Deer lake to live with relatives and did for sometime ._~ut mainly because of her multitude of illnesses she had to move out and we were successful in finding an apartment for the lady. It is certainly not the best but it is was warm and clean and comfortable but rather small.

The information that came out on CEC was incorrect.! ·I do not know where they got their information,but following the program i ' I got a written report from my officials and I find that-I am not sure what the figures were given on CBC~something like a $140 a month or some- thing like that ? But in actual fact this lady is receiving $311 a month from the Department of Social Services,$135 of which goes for rent 1but that includes heat and light,so the remainder of the money she has.

That ·I total_figure is made up of $156 basic social assistance and $105 for rent and additional assistance of ~50 for a total of $311. So in actual fact the information given on CBC was incorrect and the only real problem there, I think~ is that the quarters where the lady is living are rather small. Now in addition to that I would like to point out to the hen. member that all medication i3 free,all rlrugs are free,transportation to and from doctors is free.If there is any need for,well,for repairs-in this case it would .. not be included because she is living in rented accomadations.

But in actual fact the total amount being received is not $140- odd a month, it is $311 and things are not really as bad as they seem.

April 18, 1978 Tape 1148 DW - 2 'I-IR. C. BRETT: Before I sit down I would like to point out to the House, Sir, that prior to 1972 this lady would have rece~ved the large sum of $90 a month for everything-that is food, heat 1 light what have you,plus she would have got $20 a month rent,plus the fabulous amount of $10 a month for special food. And now today, just six years later~she would - the basic assistance is no less than $201 with rent of $70 and special assistance of $50 ,So .that is a big change over a period of six years. SOME RON. MEMBFRS : 1-IR. J. NOLAN: MR. SPEAKER: 1-!F..

J • NOLAN : Oh, Oh: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the original questioner. Mr. Speaker, the hen. member stated that the accommodation was a bit small.The member appeared on the program­ the minister did,I did not.!he garbage is in the kitchen with the bit of food she has,which does not provide a proper nutritional diet,is.The doctor said~not the hon. member of thts House,her physician said that she needed additional quarters other than what she had,and she needed the necessary funds to have a proper or diet or her health will not improve. Thisis not a partisan debate. What is the minister doing?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister, MR. c. BRETT: I would like to advise the hon. member that there are probably hundreds if not thousands of people in this Province, certainly hundreds of people in this city,who would very much like to have far better accommodations than they have but unfortunately they cannot be found,and it is also most unfortunate that many of our landlords refuse to rent to welfare recipients.

I think I pointed that out in this House before that if either one of us, any of us here,had an apartment to rent this afternoon, tomorrow, the next day, last week-the last person on earth that any of us would rent to would be a welfare recipient and that is one of the greatest problems that my staff is encounterin~ today, that we cannot find suitable accommodations for welfare people. Landlords, tenant~ do not want them and the end result is that

April 18, 1978 Tape 1149 PK - 1 Mr. Brett: a lot of the recipients of welfare end up in slum housing. And there is actually very little that can be done about it because the housing is just not available. So the lady on the television is no different from hundreds of others in this Province, and thousands like her in our country and Canada. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: A supplementary. A supplementary, the hon. member for LaPoile. Sir, there was a time in the Department of Social Services whena person could qualify for drugs or could qualify for transportation or could qualify for rent.

Now my understanding, Sir, is with the cloak and dagger attitude now of the department, that unless you qualify for everything in the department you do not qualify for anything. In other words, you cannot receive Mr. Speaker, this is the policy that has been followed for the past several years, that you just cannot qualify for a drug card. If you do not qualify for social assistance you do not qualify for anything, period. Unless the policy has changed recently, Sir, that has been the policy that the minister has been following for the past five or six years. Now the minister also, Mr.

Speaker, under the Social Assistance Act of this Province has the right, the minister personally, himself, has the right to approve $50 in a special allowance. In cases where there are extenuating circumstances the minister can, himself, without coming to this House, the minister can with a stroke of the pen - MR. WHITE: And his regional director can. MR. NEARY: - and his regional director can, pay out $50 in a special diet, in a special allowance under extenuating circumstances. Will the minister tell the House if the minister has ever used that authority? And if not, why not, why not? MR. SPEAKER: The hon.

Minister of Social Services. MR. BRETT: Yes, Mr. Speaker, the minister has not because it is not necessary for it to come to the minister. My staff have used it literally thousands of times and I guess they will continue to do so. As for the first part of, well I guess the

preamble to his ...

April 18, 1978 Tape 1149 PK - 2 Mr. Brett: question, I am surprised that the hon. member who was one time the Minister of Welfare, it was-called then, is so naive - MR. NEARY: No,it was not. MR. BRETT: because he is very much aware of the fact that there are literally thousands of people in this Province who are receiving,for example , drugs only MR. NEARY: MR. BRETT: No, t!ley have been taken away recently. People on a DVA allowances - there are others who are receiving rent only, and many different forms of social assistance. MR. WHITE: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: A supplementary the hon. member for Lewisporte, followed by the hon. gentlemen for Windsor-Buchans, Trinity-Bay de Verde. MR. WHITE: When the Minister of Social Services was outlining the amount of funds this particular lady was on television last night was getting,he did mention the $50 additional social assistance. Could the minister tell the House when the lady was awarded this extra $50? MR. NEARY: Yesterday. MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Social Services. MR. BRETT: No, Mr. Speaker, I am sorry. I cannot give the exact date but I know that she is getting the extra $50. MR. WHITE: MR. SPEAKER: MR.

WHITE: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A final supplementary. Mr. Speaker, could the minister tell the House whether or not it has been since this came to public attention -? I am sure his memory is good enough to remember that. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Social Services. ~ MR. BRETT: No, Mr. Speaker, I will have to go back and check that out, but I know it was not approved,say,within the last twenty-four hours. It was definitely several weeks ago. .. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Windsor-Buchans.

April 18, 1~78 Tape 1149 PK - 3 MR, FLIGHT: A supplementary to the Minister of Social Services. Is it not a fact that when an applicant makes an application to the Department of Social Assistance for a drug card,specifically a drug card,that the issuance or the non-issuance of that drug card is left to the discretion of the welfare officers or the regional superintendent involved? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Social Services. MR. BRETT: Yes,that is true. Most of the decisions are left to the field staff.

They operate under the regulations of the department, so,you know,naturally they can make their decision under the regulations. MR. FLIGHT: MR. SPEAKER: MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary. Well, Mr. Speaker, would the minister undertake to advise the House so as there will be no confusion as to whether there is preference shown, and welfare officers are peonle with weaknesses and strengths like everyone else, would he undertake to advise the House as to exactly what the requirements of a Newfoundlander who is entitled to a drug:card?

What exactly are the reauirements that will permit an applicant to receive a drug card, income circumstances? Because I think - and I do not believe that the welfare officers should have that discretion, I think it should be outlined as to what an applicant - the qualificiations or the requirements before - so I would like to hear exactly what are the requirements before one is rejected a credit card in terms of salary, income, from any source. MR. NEARY: He does not know. MR. RRETT: What do you mean, "He does not know"? MR. NEARY: Send for your deputy, boy! -- ..

April 18, 1978, Tape 1150, Page 1 -- apb MR. BRETT: Mr. Speaker, first of all an applicant would have to qualify for social assistance. I realize there could be borderline cases, there could be extenuating circumstances, but again the welfare officer would operate within the regulations and if a person did not come within the very fine guidelines, say, it does not necessarily mean that he would not get a drug card, because there could be extenuating circumstances. MR. FLIGHT: One further supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary. MR. FLIGHT: By way of a short

preamble, the indication has been made in this House here today that no person in Newfoundland who needs a drug card would be so denied. Now, Mr. Speaker, if a person who receives $150, a single person, from old age security and indeed receives more than he would receive if on welfare, under those circumstances his application for a drug card is rejected because his income is greater than it would be if he were on social assistance. However, that particular person may indeed need half the $150 he receives to buy drugs. MR. BRETT: question. MR.

FLIGHT: You are answering your own I am suggesting to the minister that drug cards are being refused people in that income category. They are being refused and I can document the cases that are being refused and I think the minister owes it to the House to explain why they are being refused. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Social Services. MR. BRETT: Well, Mr.Speaker, as I explained during the Question Period, a person could be receiving $150 in Buchans and be considered indigent, and a person could be receiving $150 in Random Island - the example I used - and not be considered indigent. It is ...

pril 18, 1978, Tape 1150, Page2 -- apb MR. BRETT: be receiving true that a person may well, let us not stick to the figure - if a person is receiving more on old age security than they would on social-assistance; then initially, the initial reaction would be to refuse the person because he would not qualify for help from the provincial government. But again, it does not necessarily mean that the person will be turned down, because there could be extenuating circumstances.

You can have one person on old age security whose medical expenses could be $300 a month, and you could have another person whose medical expenses are nil, so obviously, the person whose medical expenses are $300 a month is going to get more consideration, or will qualify moreso than the person whose medical expenses are nil. So there is no real hard and fast line. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde. MR. F.B.ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, respecting the brief presented to the minister this morning by the Federation of Senior Citizens and Pensioners, following that presentation I heard two releases, one from the minister who indicated that there would not be - for the want of a better expression - a pharmicare programme brought in this present year.

On the other hand, I heard the chairman representing that particular federation indicating that they had quite a congenial meeting and he was very hopeful, and he was given every indication that something would be done within this year respecting a pharmicare programme or something equivalent thereof. Could the minister indicate to the House, Sir, whether the minister is correct in his statement or the Chairman representing the Federation of Senior Citizens and Pensioners? They appear to be contradictory statements. .I

April 18, 1978, Tape 1150, Page 3 -- apb MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Social Services. MR. BRETT: Mr. Speaker, I accept no responsibility for any statement made by any person other than myself. I am not aware of what statement the gentleman made. I am aware of the statement I made but I am not aware of the statement that Mr. Rowe made and therefore, I accept no responsibility for it. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. F.B.ROWE: Well, Mr. Speaker,would the minister undertake to present in writing to the Chairman, Mr. Melvin Rowe, I believe it is - yes, Mr. Rowe, no relation by the way - AN HON.

MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. F.B.ROWE: This is a serious matter, Mr. Speaker. There is nothing very funny about this matter.

Apparently the Federation of Senior Citizens and Pensioners have a misunderstanding here because the two statements made in the press at dinnertime were quite contradictory and I would ask if the minister would undertake to write the Federation and indicate precisely and exactly what the government's stand is with respect to bringing in some form of a pharmicare programme within the year, or whether it is going to be next year, at least, indicate to those senior citizens what the exact stand of the government is because there is obviously some definite confusion in this respect. MR. SPEAKER: Services. MR.

BRETT: The hon. Minister of Social Mr. Speaker, the minister will continue to deal and to co-operate with the group that I met this morning and if I feel it is necessary to write the federation I will. If I feel it is necessary to meet with them and discuss their problems orally I will do that. But I do not at this time particularly intend to .i

April 18, 1978, Tape 1150, Page 4 -- apb MR. BRETT: take any guidance from the hon. member across the House. MR. F.B.ROWE: A further supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Carbonear. MR. R. MOORES: Mr. Speaker, a question ..

April 18,1978 Tape 1151 Ali-1 NR. HOORES: for the hen. Hinister of Socia: Services. Just a few minutes ago in the exchange over tht: p<larmicare and ~ossiole financing by the Province, the mi...1.ister I believe indirectly indicated t!1at someching mighc be done this year under the auspicious of the newly arranged block financir•g progrs.mme. I waut to a;:;k the minister did he mean to mislead t!:J.e House in that Bill C57, the new Social Services Act :ill.. SPEA.KER: Order, please!

I must require the :1or:. gentleLJan to repi1rase that question since it is unparli=entary to allege that somebody is deliberately misleading. Putting it ir. a hypotnetical sense would also bring that rule illto doubt. I Ql;l sure the hen. geutleman can fi..."'ld another way of phrasing his question. :.fR. :IOORES: I would like the uinister to clarify :1is statement \vith regard to the Province's financi~ under block fundi;tg in that Bill C57, the Hew Social Services Act clearly states that senior citizens are not considered financable un~er block funding. MR. SPE..U<E:a.: T<;e hen. 1Dinis ter. Yili..

BRETT: I do not know if he means Bill C56 or Bill C57 but the proposed new Social Assistance Legislation is no longer a question, the tiling has been done away with and block funding is in in its place. Hhat I meant to indicate to the House was this, t:1at under block funding tnere will be more dollars available to the Province next year and conceivably ti1e government ~1ill be considering new programmes and one of the programmes it will be considering are some of the ones put for.vard oy the Federation delegation.

ORDETI.S OF THE DAY On motion that c:1e Eouse resolve itself into a Co=ittee of the \·i110le on Supply, Hr. Speaker, left tho? rh?i!".

:I.R. c:!AI~:&-: : :i:R. D:CiN: !ape .io. 1151 CO:l:UTil:..E OF 1U: \,'ilOLE Order , pl.:ase ! Ai.-2 iiead :r...x :·:w1icipal :.ffairs aull ilousi:lg . Toank you, :!r, C:l:tii11lan. Fir:>r:: of all .·!r. C.oai=n r:::us heine; the first tiDe char:: I i~a·:e ::~ad r.:1e opporr::unity to speak in this clouse tnis year I t~ant co take ch is opportunir::y co welcome co the aousa che non . mezlber for St . John ' s Iiese (Dr. Ki tchen) 1.'ho is not in his seat -:isht not~ bur:: oc benalf of ;;r; cons:.ituent:s a::~d L~yself .

I woul d li:•e to welcome hila co tile House a:~<! also t'l}' frie :-::d the ilon . friend for Fcrrj'la:lc Cx. Power) . I hope t.lC)' iloc.'l uave a lon:; st3)' , cerr::ainly co the end of ~'lis sitting and cerr::ainly :a . . ~EARY : !lo no t be wasr::ing your time ' boy .' The non. Ol!l:ll::er for L.ll'oile ~:r . :~eary) :!r. Chaioa.,, uoes no t titink ir:: is imp ortant for me co cong ratu late :nembers cominS i:1 ite::e to r:ae House buc I ::eserve c.~e righ t co be able to say c:,- fet• words in silence and I wish c!le hon . me:aber lo'oul<i oilserve t:t~ rules of t:l<~ tiouse and give me chat privilege .

No.,., ~!r. Chairman , this i s r::he second time that 1 itave hall the opportuci t y to spea~ on the es~ates of the Oe9artmenc of :tunicipal Affairs and Housing . bdeed , I am proud again this year co put for....a r d a ~rogracoe ·Nit h inc r eased funding to ~y a reas 3nd with ·r::he obvious polic;.r of governm ent. to help t be r:.~ral areas of this Province w~1et;1er i: is with respect: to housing or •dth respect: to wat er an~ sever systecs , ·..ro:;er O::.'ld sewe r to unincocyo rat ed areas , assist :;1e ::1unid.palities •..Tho I consiaer, :!r . Chairman, to be in the front lir.es of

April 18, 1978 Tape 1152 EC - 1 MR. DINN: government in this Province, because these are the people who are out there on a day to day basis looking after the problems of their communities, Not enough is said by han. members in this House with respect to thanking them for the assistance they are giving all of our citizens in getting the much needed services that they so richly deserve. Now, Mr.

Chairman, this year I feel that in my first twenty minutes maybe I will run down through many of the important it~ms that the Department of Municipal Affairs and the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation will be dealing with in the coming years and have dealt with in the past year. I feel first of all, Mr.

Chairman, that we should discuss the Whelan report, and obviously in the first twenty minutes I will not be able to discuss in great detail the Whelan report although I think possibly much time should be spent in this House discussing things of this importance, because that will be the blueprint for municipal government in this Province in the future. After the Whelan report was presented to the Department of Municipal Affairs, a Steering Committee was set up with representatives from Planning and Priorities with representatives of the Federation and representatives from the Department of Municipal Affairs.

That Steering Committee, Mr.Chairman, has made many, many recommendations to the department and to government, and many of those recommendations have been implemented, many of them will be implemented and some of them, of course, may not be, but certainly will be considered in great detail and if and when these things can ce implemented they will.

April 13, 1978 Tape 1152 HR. DIN N: Last year, Mr. Chairman, in this House we passed a new municipal grant system. Now that municipal grant system _was brought in here on the recommendation of the Steering Co~mittee and IB-2 approved by government but would only be put in place because it is so vitally important, Mr. Chairman, when and if that system would not adversely affect the municipalities in this Province.

Having gone through many months of attempting to work out the formula as set out in the Whelan Royal Commission Report as to how municipalities should be funded and assisted by government, the formula as set out by Whelan, in our opinion, to this point in time cannot be implemented. now the reason for this, Mr. Chairman, is that we-have 310 or so municipalities in this Province and if we were to implement the new municipal capital grants system approximately 167 municipalities would have no benefit from it whatsoever. Indeed, many of those municipalities would be adversely affected.

Because the basis around which that grant system works is that property tax for one be implemented, is that there be no special grants.

In these situations the smaller municipalities,the rural, small municipalities in this Province would not be assisted and, of course, that is totally contrary to the objects of the policy of this government with respect to development of our rural areas, development of the fishery, industrial and rural development, development in excellence in what we have and certainly to adversely affect the small municipalities in this Province at this time would be a crime of the highest order. So until we can perfect that formula, Mr.

Chairman, we cannot implement, we cannot proclaim that bill, that act that was passed in this House last year.

April 18, 1978 Tape 1152 IB-3 !·IR. DDIN: The next thing, Mr. Chairman, I would like to address is the new capital projects board set up in the Department cf ~unicipal Affairs and Housing.

April 13, 1973 Tape i<o. 1153 .J.! - 1 clr. Chairman, that capital projects board has put into place all of the requests nade by municipalities, have presented an excellent progra=e to us and this year, }!r. Chairman, of the over 200 projects that have been sent in to be analyzed and to be put forth to gove=ent, we intend that since we cannot implement all of t~ese 200 projects this year,since it vrould be financially impossible to implement these projects this year, Hr.

Chairma.""l, I have asked the capital projects conmittee to take t~ese 200 projects and in the ne...xt few months lay out for this goverrunent and for this province a five-year programe so that all of these projects can )e attempted to be put in place or if not put in place in five years at least to have a programme 1;hereby they can be implemented over the ne;rt five or ten years. :row, :1r. Chairman, tl<enty minutes as I have said is not very auch tiRe but t!1e next thing t:1at I "auld like to deal with as it involves quite an area, certainly my district and many districts in the St.

John's ~rea, all the districts in St. John's and soce in the surrounding area, I would like to deal a little bit 1vith the :Ienley 'leport. This year, :rr. Chair:"..an, hopefully if all things go 1-rell 1-1e "·ill have )efore the legislature a bill for regional goverm:J.ent in the St. John's or c!ortheast Avalon urban region. 1 ~. ~-IE.ARY: (Inaudible) . ::R. DI~m: ------ clr.

Chairman, can I have silence from the hon. uerr.ber for LaPoile who seems to be abusing the privileges of this :louse by totally and completely interrupting every apea~:er c-•ho gets up i::t this Rouse to try to speak and attenpt to debate the issues of t:1is ;>rovince. SO:'E '~ON. :~!BE!tS. C!ea~! 'lear! ----------- 0rder please! '!on. members ~·rill remember that one of our ~tantting uraers is t~at :ton. members nay make remarks in -:;. such silence that other mewbers of the comnittee can 3et full understanding and I •;auld ask hon. !!leobers to bear this in r.~ind. T'lank :rou, :!r. Chai=an.

I may have to call upon the protection of the Chair as I go on. :~r. Chairl"!a.n regional :;overru:>.cnt,

.~pril 18 , 1978 Tape ~:o . 1153 Avalon ur;,an regioc is o::e of t :te ::::ost !.:ol?or::.t:lt t.!::!.ngl:i c:-.at will come ;,cfo re :::\is Legisla t ure wit:1 raspcct : o loc.ll gover:ll:le:l t :.n ::.:Ois Province ;.:e i-.ave many problems in t~e t'rovince :tr.

C:1ai=a:. . il:lc :!:a: I can t:tin!;; o£ is C:te firefighti;1g pro;, l eo 1-1:1ereby 5:!411 ::1u:1ici;>alj.cies i)ecause they a:e or;a nize d can buy fire equlpoe:.t, fire trucks and c ~a t :- i:~d of thin6 ar.ci t:1ey ;lave to, because they are hucan , oecaus e ~1e :1ave t ' .e best vol unteer fire ;, riga de::; o i an:r.;he re i n North America, have to service not only their cotllllluoities :.ut nll t::e surrounding areas. t·1::-.

Chairman, ir. my opinion, regional government is t !te o:lly ;,ray whereby we can provice fundi:l.g on a regional ;,as is so t hat t!lese small municipalities do :lOt ;lave to foot t he entire bill for the ::hole area . So, ~!r. Chairoan, regio:tal gover:unen t for the St . John's urban area is a start . lt is not t he to tal t hing, and I thin!;; t hat dOl.'U t.'le •ay "'~en we see !low ·.;e ll regio:~al gove rnme:~t O?e rates and serves t he peo?le of t he comcun!ties involved t!lere t.rill be a c emand al=sc for· regio:ul. aover=ents i:1 otner regions in t!lis pro~...n.ce . :-!r.

Chair111an, I will couch br iefly no\· on tile F'atterson Report . The ho:1. 101ember for ·:in<!sor-i3uchans urought it up last year and •..:e dis cussed i t io this <louse of ,\ssembly . At t hat poi:'lt i n ::ime

April 18, 1978 Tape No. 1154 RT-1 MR. DINN: I spoke to the han. member with respect to how we should upgrade the town of Windsor so that the town of Windsor, if it ever did want to amalgamate with the town of Grand Falls and Bishops Falls, that they would be upgraded to a point where they would walk in as proud partners in a total co=unity. \·lith that in mind, Hr. Chairman, we extended the NIP program to the town of Windsor whereby the municipality's share of the NIP funding would be provided by the Province because, Mr. Chairman, the people of Windsor are paying their share, and that has to be recognized.

Having recognized that and understanding, wi~h the problems they have in that municipality, I think we have to see, we have to take the exceptions and we have to take these places like Windsor which is, by the way, the oldest to~nt in Newfoundland, we have to look at these special areas, we have to find out what the problems are and we have to solve those problems. I think, ~r.

Chairman, down the way it may be possible to implement the recommendations of the Patterson report, and in doing so, the tmrn of ''indsor, the town of Grand Falls and/or the town of Bishops, ~~e will go in as equal partners and He will go in with our heads held high. Now, Mr. Chairman, to spend one or two more minutes on the housing, and I want to give han. members opposite time to debate the issues, debate the estimates and ask all the question, and hopefully, I will be given an opportunity to answer most of those questions, I would like to deal very briefly 1~ith housing in the Province. Mr.

Chairman, it is very difficult in this Province today to put a comprehensive housing program together for a year. This year it is made even more difficult because the budget of CMHC which is normally approved, by the way, in January or February every year so that we can get our budget in place so that we know what dollars we need to complement the dollars of the Federal Government, CHHC, their budget has not been approved yet. We have talked to the Federal Government, we have written to the hon. Hinister of State for Urban Affairs, the uan.

Andre Ouellette, we have attempted to find out, for example, if the NIP program is going to continue which in this Province, Mr. Chairman, is one of the most important community programs that we have, the NIP program, -·

1' - April is, 1978 Tape ~ o. 1154 !l.T-2 MR . DINN: because along '-'ith that goes the RRAP program, the Residential Rehabilitation Assistance Program. l<e !lave gotten funds approved for \~indsor in the past year but that only does pa-ct of the job . I -f NIP does not go QD, if we do not find out fairly soon that NIP funds are going to be available next year, then the ongoing program that ""e want to and we have to t~ rovide for a t o~m like Windsor cannot go on. So, Mr .

Chait'Dlan, it is very i mpQrtant, and han. members opposite should know that unless NIP is approved fairly soon that we will end up at the end of this yea r not usin g up all of the funds that the Federal Goverm::ent lays on the table fo r use in these NIP areas, and also, we wi ll not be given tb.e opoortunity, we •-'ill not have t he time to use up thJ:! monies avaUa.ble for RRAP in NIP areas, and rural !t.<u.P in thos e areas that are designated in the Province . Let me point out, , r . Chairman, for example, :ohat happened last year with our rut: a! RRAP p ro_gralll.

We star ted out l ast yea r carryin~ on negotiations •ith the Federal Government and attempting t o et =Y areas of the Province - we had them priorlzed a.s co 11here the needs -were . We s·tarted out and we tried to ~et many areas of the Province pinpointed so that we could lay out a compre hensive orogram of dev"!lop ment . A..'l' i:lQ)l • ME!1l!E11 : t'riorized? HR. DTI<j Priorized. Priorized iii

April 18, 1978 Tape 1155 HR. DINN: by the federal and provincial governments I might add for the information of the hon. member opposite. Mr. Chairman, we started last August having gone through many areas of the Province picking out specific areas, IB-1 last August-September to indicate to the federal government areas like Twillingate, the whole provincial district of Twillingate, the area of St. George's, Mr. Chairman, th~ area on the Northeast Coast, Cow Head and Parson's Pond and areas like that and extending it along where the need was. Port au Port, Mr.

Chairman, which was put down to the federal government for assistance with respect to not only rural RRAP but also with respect to the ~ural and ~ative and ~ural and ~emote Housing Programme that we had last year. So we have put all of these forward, ~r. Chairman, and in February when the funds for the federal government terminate at the end of December, in February Twillingate was approved, Lord's Cove and the part down on the Burin Peninsula was approved and areas up on the Northeast Coast were approved and the district in St. George's from St. Teresa's, I believe)up through St.

George's and Stephenville Crossing and on up to, I forget the name of the small community, better St. Teresa's to the South I believe. The upper end of that is up beyond Stephenville Crossing and St. George's. So we got those approved, Mr. Chairman. Having gone through all the discussions all the way up to August and putting the request in, we got those approved in February of this year. That ~r. Chairman, cannot happen again. But it appears as though what will happen in somewhere around June, late ~!ay or June, the federal government will lay on

April 18, 1978 Tape 1155 IB-2 J1R. DINN: the table millions of dollars for which it will be impossible for this Province to take up those funds. Now, just to give you an example, Mr. Chairman, just to show that this is not isolated, the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador is not isolated in its dealings with CMHC. The Province of Nova Scotia,for exa~ple,in their co-op housing programme last year had the capability, that started out with the funds made available for 300 co-op housing units.

And before the year was out they found that before having gone through all the discussions, as we did in RRAP and many other housing programmes, having gone through all these discussions found out that when it got to the end of the year they never got the areas approved and consequently never used up the federal funds to the tune of - in fact they only used half of their co-op programme or about 150 houses. So this is the kind of thing that goes on. It has gone on for the past couple of years.

Last year it was a particularly difficult year in dealing with CMHC and with the Ministry of State for Drban Affairs and this year it appears that it is going to be even worse. Because

whereas in the past years we have had the budget approved by CMHC in January and February, this year it is not approved to date nor will it be approved, ~r. Chairman, for the next few months. So, Hr. Chairman, I believe my time is up. It is unfortunate that twenty minutes is not very much time but I will get an opportunity to speak on the estimates a little further. HR. CRAIRHAN: The hon. member for Lewisporte. 11R. \THITE: Mr. Speaker, we have six hours allocated in the estimates for debate on this particular department. -·

April 18, 1978 Tape 1155 !S-3 KR. iHITE: It was our feeling on this side that we should at least give some priority to this depa rtment, .!r . Chair~an, because we feel that it has been the most downgraded department in this government particularly, Hr. Chairman, within the last couple of years. It is our feeling that the Depa rt ment of ,!unicipal Affairs and Housing has been downgraded, Mr . Chairman, to the degree that very few councils in this Provin ce have any respect at all for the Depa rtmen t of t!un icipal Affairs and Housing . ~ r.

Chairman, i t was always a priority department in the eyes of most Uewfoundlande rs . I am sure th e former ministe r recognized i t as being a very importa~t dep artment but within the last

April 18, 1978 Tape No. 1156 RT-1 MR.. ~onnTE: couple of years the Department of Nunicipal Affairs and Housing has abrogated all its duties with respect to the people of this Province and we now find, Xr. Chairman, that it is nothing short of a political department and could best be described, I suppose, as the pork-barrelling department of this Government, the pork-barrelling department, ~r. Chairman. SOME HON. :'ID!BERS: Hear, hear! ~"1', . 1-lH ITE : The only reason for the existence, that tve can see at the moment, Mr.

Chairman, of the Department of ~ 1 unicipal Affairs and Housing is to keep some of the constituents, and I say some of the constituents of some of the districts represented opposite, happy around the country because, Mr. Chairman, nothing whatsoever is being done in most, and I say most, of the districts represented on this side. You have a situation, Mr. Chairman, where ministers on the other side are driving the Minister of ~unicipal Affairs and Housing around the bend with their constant fighting and scratching over the little bit of money that there is in Municipal Affairs and Housing.

He is being hounded to death by_his Cabinet colleagues for this little bit here and this little bit there, and consequently, Mr. Chairman, by the time it comes around to trying to find something to do a water project, a nruch-needed tvater project, in some of the other districts of the Province there is nothing left whatsoever. MR. NEARY: 'IR. lYHITE: The ltinister is completely rattled. Mr. Chairman. I dn not l<now if the Minister realizes, or not, tvhat he is actually doing, ~!R.

NEARY: The Minister cannot take it, MR. w'HITE: I was watching a TV show last night called 'Holocaust' and I do not know how many members say it, I think it was on cable television, and it was the story of the Jews and hmv they were treated in the Second !Vorld War, and it reminds me of my constituents, !1r. Chairman. They are almost being whipped by this Government because a Liberal member represents them, being whipped up against the wall. They are being whipped. They are being punished, tfr. Chairman, because ..

April 18, 1978 Tape No. 1156 RT-2 MR. l-IHITE: they had the gall to put in a Liberal member in the last election. I suppose, Mr. Chairman, that the mentality of this crowd opposite is such that they feel that our constituents will be whipped into shape to the point of voting for this crowd in the next election. Well what a second thought they have coming to them, Mr. Chairman. My constituents and constituents of other members on this side of the House can hardly wait to return the punishment that has been inflicted upon them within the last few year. Now, ~1r.

Chairman, let me come to a couple of specific examples with respect to the blatant pork-barrelling that is going on within the Department of Municipal Affairs and Housing. It is worse than anything we have seen, Mr. Chairman, since 1949 and probably anvthing we have seen since 1833 when Responsible Government was brought into Newfoundland. Last year, for example - Let me explain to you, Mr.

Chairman, about the incompetency that exists in the Ministry of the Department of Municipal Affairs and Housing Last year it was near Christmas before most of the projects that could have gone ahead last Spring and Summer were approved to go ahead. It was near Christmas, Mr. Chairman, because they could not make up their minds where the money should go and they were holding back some of it, I assume, for Twillingate, $30,000,000 or $40,000,000 of it for Twillingate, Mr. Chairman, which is another issue we will be discussing. The municipal councils around Newfoundland, Mr.

Chairman, were told to get their priorities in to the Department of ~!unicipal Affairs and Housing around the middle of December of last year, that is a year ago December past, but it was almost a year after that, Mr. Chairman, before the various capital ~•orks projects that "ere going to go ahead in tnis Province were approved and ready to go ahead. Consequently, projects that should have been carried out last Summer and Fall, projects that should have been giving employment last Summer and Fall, are still not going ahead and will not be going ahead until this Spring and this Summer. ...

April 18, 197