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June 8, 2021

RESOURCE COMMITTEE

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Chris Tibbs, MHA for Grand Falls-Windsor -

Buchans, substitutes for Pleaman Forsey, MHA for Exploits.

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Pam Parsons, MHA for Harbour Grace - Port de

Grave, substitutes for Sherry Gambin-Walsh, MHA for Placentia - St. Mary's.

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Sarah Stoodley, MHA for Mount Scio, substitutes

for Lucy Stoyles, MHA for Mount Pearl North.

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Scott Reid, MHA for St. George's - Humber,

substitutes for Paul Pike, MHA for Burin - Grand Bank for a portion of the

meeting.

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, James Dinn, MHA for St. John's Centre,

substitutes for Jordan Brown, MHA for Labrador West.

The Committee met at 9:05 a.m. in the Assembly Chamber.

CHAIR (Warr):

Order, please!

Good morning. It's 9:05 and we'll call the meeting to order.

Before we get started, I'll introduce myself. My name is Brian Warr, MHA for

Baie Verte - Green Bay, and it's my pleasure to chair your Estimates meeting

this morning.

Before we get into anything I just want to announce the substitutions:

Substituting for the Committee Member for Placentia - St. Mary's is the MHA for

Harbour Grace - Port de Grave, MHA Parsons; substituting for the Member for

Mount Pearl North is the MHA for Mount Scio, MHA Stoodley; substituting for

Burin - Grand Bank is the MHA for St. George's - Humber, MHA Reid; substituting

for the MHA for Exploits is the MHA for Grand Falls-Windsor - Buchans, MHA

Tibbs; and substituting for the Member for Labrador West is the Member for St.

John's Centre, MHA Dinn.

I'm looking for a mover from the Committee, we need to adopt the previous

minutes.

MHA Parsons.

Seconder?

MHA Reid.

All those in favour, 'aye.'

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

All those against, 'nay.'

Carried.

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR:

I did check with the Members from the Committee, so we're fine with – we have an

independent Member and we will offer some time for that Member to ask questions

as well. All agreed?

Thank you.

Resume business, we're here this morning to consider the Estimates of the

Department of Immigration, Population Growth and Skills. I'll ask for

introductions for you to introduce yourself to the Committee and then I'll pass

it over for the department to do the same. So if we could start.

Your tally light is on, go right ahead, Sir.

B. RUSSELL:

Brad Russell, Director of Digital Strategy with the Office of the Official

Opposition.

CHAIR:

Thank you.

C. TIBBS:

Chris Tibbs, MHA for Grand Falls-Windsor - Buchans.

J. DINN:

Jim Dinn, MHA for St. John's Centre.

P. TRIMPER:

Perry Trimper, MHA for Lake Melville.

S. FLEMING:

Scott Fleming, Researcher, Third Party caucus.

S. REID:

Scott Reid, MHA, St. George's - Humber.

C. PARDY:

Craig Pardy, District of Bonavista.

P. PARSONS:

Pam Parsons, MHA for Harbour Grace - Port de Grave.

S. STOODLEY:

Sarah Stoodley, MHA for Mount Scio.

CHAIR:

Thank you.

If I could start with you, Minister.

G. BYRNE:

Sure. Gerry Byrne, Minister of Immigration, Population Growth and Skills, and

MHA for Corner Brook.

W. MAVIN:

Walt Mavin, ADM of Employment and Labour Market Development.

K. NORMAN:

Katie Norman, Assistant Deputy Minister, Immigration and Population Growth.

J. TOMPKINS:

John Tompkins, Director of Communications.

D. DUNPHY:

Debbie Dunphy, Assistant Deputy Minister of Corporate Services and Policy.

P. HEARN:

Patricia Hearn, Deputy Minister.

S. FRENCH:

Steve French, Departmental Comptroller.

J. REYNOLDS:

Jeremy Reynolds, Executive Assistant to the minister.

CHAIR:

Thank you.

Just as a reminder, if you have an opportunity to speak and you feel comfortable

lowering your mask, that's fine as well.

Anyway, I will ask the Clerk to call the first subheads, please.

CLERK (Hammond):

1.1.01 to 1.2.03 inclusive.

CHAIR:

Shall 1.1.01 to 1.2.03 inclusive carry?

Minister some opening remarks, please.

G. BYRNE:

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you to all Committee Members and

others in support.

I want to begin by expressing our sincere regrets, condolences and empathies on

behalf of this Legislature – I'm confident in saying that – but on behalf of the

people of Newfoundland and Labrador to the Muslim community of Canada and to

Newfoundland and Labrador. Just before my entry into the Chamber, I had an

opportunity to speak with the president of the Muslim Association of

Newfoundland and Labrador and to express that directly to the community at

large.

As we all know, a very serious event recently happened in Hamilton, Ontario,

which must cause us all pause and reflection on the causes of such an event, but

more importantly how to combat. Islamophobia is very alive and well and it must

be eradicated. Speaking with the president of the Muslim Association of

Newfoundland and Labrador, he gave me great confidence that we have a wonderful

partner to direct energies in that effort.

The Muslim community of Newfoundland and Labrador are hurting right now and they

continue to hurt following the mass devastation, the attacks in Quebec and this

now is a follow-up consequence or it's a follow-up action. It is just simply

deemed unacceptable and I'm confident that we'll be speaking further to this on

the floor of this Legislature, but even just as importantly, in our living

rooms, our kitchens, in our mosques, in our synagogues, in our churches and

everywhere Newfoundlanders and Labradorians gather to have conversations about

serious issues. This is, indeed, a serious issue.

With that said, on behalf of each and every one of us, and on my own personal

behalf, I want to extend to the Muslim community of Newfoundland and Labrador

and to Canada at large: We are with you. Our thoughts and our prayers are with

you. We're with the families of the victims of an atrocious attack and we will

act in concert and common cause to combat such attacks.

With that said, Mr. Chair, it echoes well for what we need to talk about in this

Legislature, which are issues around multiculturalism, immigration, resettlement

and welcoming new Canadians. This is what this department is really all about

now, it is more focused than every before. We've had a series of structural

changes, which, I think, are very much appropriate and better to be able to deal

with population growth, to arrest population decline and to advance population

growth in our province, as we know we are a shrinking population due to

demographics.

We are the only province in Canada forecasted to decline in population over the

next series of years, if not decades. So the Premier has directed, from a

machinery point of view and from a policy point of view and from a resource

point of view, to add additional resources and capacity to be able to tackle

that challenge.

This is really what the department has become focused on, in addition to a very

significant, ongoing, substantive portfolio of skills development initiatives

for those who face labour market difficulties and who wish to make a transition

into new careers or to adapt new skills and new opportunities.

With that said, I am here with my Deputy Minister Patricia Hearn. Patricia was

handpicked for this particular job. She comes with impeccable credentials in

federal-provincial relationships. She is a collaborator and she gets stuff done.

So I'm very delighted to have Patricia Hearn serving as our deputy minister in

this new, restructured, refocused department, along with an incredible executive

team, headed by Walt Mavin in Workforce Development and skills, Katie Norman in

Immigration and Population Growth and Debbie Dunphy keeping us all together and

structured and performing to top efficiency in Corporate Services.

With that said, we have a good group of directors and managers that I feel are

some of the best that I have ever had the opportunity to work with in my 26-year

career in government and public service.

With that said, we can begin a discussion, Mr. Chair, on the substance of the

Estimates, but feel free to talk about any issues on policy that you would. I

welcome all.

I will be able to deliver the briefing books. I usually like to distribute them

prior to the discussion but I walked away without them. I was on an important

telephone call and I walked away without them this time but you will get them

immediately after the Estimates.

The only thing I would say, there is one discrepancy within the book itself for

$3,200. It's found in a particular subheading under Executive and Support

Services, 1.2.03, I believe it is. There was an omission of a $3,200 expenditure

which will be – it was just caught too late before the publication of the

Estimates document, but it will obviously appear in the Public Accounts in

October or thereabouts. It was just simply an oversight of one particular

transaction. So, with that said, the book, as we understand it and believe it to

be, is fair, complete and accurate to all other measures.

With that said, Mr. Chair, I'm ready to begin.

CHAIR:

Thank you, Minister.

1.1.01 to 1.2.03.

MHA Tibbs.

C. TIBBS:

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I share the minister's sentiments about the horrible tragedy that came about

yesterday in our country. Of course, we are all about inclusion in Canada and in

Newfoundland and Labrador as well. I'm sure the minister will be proud of my

Member's statement I have coming up this afternoon.

Is it okay if I just run over a couple of questions beforehand, before we get

into the –?

G. BYRNE:

(Inaudible.)

C. TIBBS:

Perfect, thank you very much.

We just discussed your briefing binder, and I appreciate that.

Minister, are you still applying zero-based budgeting?

G. BYRNE:

Zero-based budgeting is still in effect, whether it be attrition targets or

other measures. But we're always looking for good fiscal efficiencies and

reforms.

If there are any specific questions, I'm sure that Madam Dunphy would be able to

answer any specific questions you may have.

C. TIBBS:

Thank you, Minister.

Are there any errors in the published Estimates book, besides the one we just

talked about?

G. BYRNE:

None that we are aware of.

C. TIBBS:

Thank you, Minister.

Is the attrition plan still being followed? If so, what are the changes for the

last year and this year, and how is it being measured?

G. BYRNE:

The answer to the first part of the question is yes, and I'll ask Madam Dunphy

to respond to the ongoing pursuit of that objective.

D. DUNPHY:

Mr. Tibbs, yes, we continue to review all vacant positions when the recruitment

exercise begins to see if there is an opportunity for attrition. As you're

aware, we just went through a significant restructuring, but I can tell you that

in the fiscal year '20-'21 we did eliminate four long-term vacancies as part of

our attrition plan. There were also a couple of contractual positions that were

eliminated, but those were related to functions that have transferred out of the

department. Going forward, we do continue to look at our positions and have

identified one or two for the coming fiscal year.

C. TIBBS:

Thank you, Ma'am.

How many people are employed in the department?

D. DUNPHY:

Right now, as of June 8, we have 336 positions and approximately 39 vacancies at

this time.

C. TIBBS:

Thank you, Ma'am.

How many retirements have occurred in the past year?

D. DUNPHY:

Twenty-four.

C. TIBBS:

Thank you, Ma'am.

How many vacancies are not filled in the department?

D. DUNPHY:

Thirty-nine.

C. TIBBS:

Thirty-nine, we just said that.

Thank you, Ma'am.

Have any positions been eliminated, and what are they?

D. DUNPHY:

So in the last fiscal year we eliminated eight. There were four contractual, one

related to the public post-secondary review when it was in our department –

education review. There was an executive support position that was a contract

with an outside agency that we're being reimbursed for. That arrangement has now

ended, so that was eliminated. We had one position at the Workers' Compensation

Review Division and a temporary contractual position at the Labour Relations

Board. So, again, they were ones that were now moved out. Then there were four

long-term vacancies. They were an information management technician, a clerk

typist III, a program development specialist and a word processing operator.

C. TIBBS:

Thank you, Ma'am.

How many layoffs have occurred in the department over the last year?

D. DUNPHY:

None that I'm aware.

C. TIBBS:

Excellent, thank you, Ma'am.

How many new hires took place in the last year?

D. DUNPHY:

That I do not know. I can get that for you.

C. TIBBS:

Sure, I'd appreciate it.

How many contractual and short-term employees are in the department?

D. DUNPHY:

So currently we have one contractual position and we have four short-term

temporary employment employees.

C. TIBBS:

Thank you, Ma'am.

And how many employees are working from home, versus government office right

now?

D. DUNPHY:

So over the past year we were – Minister, if you'd like me to continue, sorry?

G. BYRNE:

Yes, go ahead. You are a wealth of knowledge.

D. DUNPHY:

Thank you.

So over the past year we were very fortunate that we were able to obtain laptops

for the majority of staff. So when we locked down in February past we were very

fortunate in that we had, I'd say, close to 95 per cent of people working from

home. Since the election in the new fiscal year we've gradually been bringing

back some staff like director level and that sort of thing and staff are

dropping in as needed for various functions.

But for the most part, right now, the majority of our staff are still working

from home.

C. TIBBS:

Great, thank you.

Is the department investigating a permanent-work-from-home plan for some of

these people?

D. DUNPHY:

Right now, there is some discussion with the employer in general with the

release of the Together.Again. plan.

We are working with the folks in Treasury Board Secretariat to determine the

appropriate way to address and we will certainly follow any guidance that they

provide.

C. TIBBS:

It's a moving target, I'm sure.

D. DUNPHY:

Yes.

C. TIBBS:

Did your department receive any funds from the contingency fund? If so, how much

and what was it for?

D. DUNPHY:

The main money – the only money, to my knowledge – that we received from the

contingency fund related to the administration of the Essential Worker Support

Program, and that was federal funding. We received approximately $50,000 from

the contingency fund in order to administer that program. Again, that was

federally funded, so that money came from the federal government.

C. TIBBS:

Thank you, Ma'am.

Due to the reorganization of the department, there's a substantial restatement.

Can we get a breakdown of that?

D. DUNPHY:

Of what was transferred to the other departments?

C. TIBBS:

Yes.

D. DUNPHY:

Yes, certainly.

C. TIBBS:

Thank you.

Total population numbers are forecasted to decline until 2023 and then set to

increase again in 2024-2025. Could we get a breakdown of the methodology behind

these projections?

G. BYRNE:

I'll refer that to ADM Katie Norman.

K. NORMAN:

That information we can certainly provide to you, but those forecasts are

prepared by the Department of Finance. We'll collect it from them and provide it

to your office.

C. TIBBS:

Appreciate it. Thank you, Ms. Norman.

Just a final question for the pre-questions here, Minister: Total unemployment

is forecasted to decline in 2022 substantially and then steadily increase until

2025. Could you explain that and could we get a breakdown of the methodology

behind those projections as well?

G. BYRNE:

Again, as ADM Norman had indicated, a lot of our projections in terms of labour

force come from Economics and Statistics from within the Department of Finance.

But I'm not sure, Walt or Katie, if you would like to provide the basis on which

the budget documents incorporated that information?

K. NORMAN:

Similarly, to my earlier response, we can certainly get you information from the

Department of Finance. In terms of labour market information just generally,

that's fed in from the various sector departments to inform the overall

Estimates book and then that information is reflected in the Economy document.

That would probably be the best place to look in terms of where some of the

labour market forecasting information is based on.

C. TIBBS:

Sure. Thank you so much.

I guess, Mr. Chair, we can start line-by-line items now.

CHAIR:

Yes. Anything from 1.1.01 to 1.2.03?

C. TIBBS:

1.1.01, Salaries: There's $12,500 budgeted this year more compared to what was

spent last year. What's the explanation for this?

G. BYRNE:

I would believe you'd find that is proportionate increases in Executive Support,

executive salary based on structured formats. Patricia Hearn, if you'd like to

sort of step in on that particular detail.

P. HEARN:

As it's noted in the binder that you will receive, it reflects, I think, what

you would have heard from many other departments: There's an adjustment from

last year. That would have included an extra pay period last year. Then the

negotiated increases that were common to all departments are reflected in that

as well.

C. TIBBS:

Thank you, Ma'am.

Transportation and Communications, there was $32,600 less spent compared to what

was budgeted. Can you explain this and give us a breakdown of what wasn't spent

due to COVID?

G. BYRNE:

Obviously, with COVID, there were very much lower travel costs due to

restrictions related to COVID. There was a decrease prior to this year's

expenses due to zero-based budgeting as well. There's a pathway for efficiency

there. But that is in relationship to the fact that COVID restricted travel.

C. TIBBS:

Thank you, Minister.

General Administration, 1.2.01, Salaries: Budgeted Salaries are $39,000 more

this year than what was spent last year. Can you explain this, Minister, please?

G. BYRNE:

We're moved over to 1.2?

C. TIBBS:

Yes, Sir, 1.2.01, Salaries.

G. BYRNE:

There were, as indicated, approved salary increases consistent with original

formats with the negotiated benefits packages. Salaries were adjusted

accordingly.

C. TIBBS:

Thank you, Minister.

1.2.01, again, Transportation and Communications: There was $23,400 less spent

compared to what was budgeted. Can you explain this and give us a breakdown of

what wasn't spent due to COVID?

G. BYRNE:

In terms of Executive Support, that would have been a number of – there were

obviously lesser travel demands due to restrictions of COVID. In terms of what

that line item might have dealt with in the past, I could ask Debbie Dunphy to

provide some further details, but generally speaking, I think you'll find that

that's a function of COVID.

C. TIBBS:

Thank you, Minister.

General Administration is continued, 1.2.02 Administrative Support, for

Salaries, which is 01. There is $155,400 more budgeted this year compared to

what was spent last year, can we explain this?

G. BYRNE:

Sorry, we're jumping around in subheads, where are we to?

C. TIBBS:

1.2.02, 01, Salaries.

G. BYRNE:

Yes, okay.

There were savings that were related to vacancies and delayed recruitment

process that caused the 2020-21 revised budget to come down by $39,300 from the

previous year's budget. In addition to that, there were approved salary

increases as per the structured formats and salaries were adjusted across the

department to reflect those actual requirements.

C. TIBBS:

Thank you, Minister.

1.2.02, 01, Purchased Services, there is $34,800 more budgeted compared to what

was spent last year. Can you explain this?

G. BYRNE:

With Purchased Services, this involves everything from banking fees to

reductions in shredding services, copier costs, debt machines, all sort of

different functions. In terms of that being a zero item in this current fiscal

year and revised from last year, those functions were obviously not required.

C. TIBBS:

Thank you, Minister.

Could we also get what banks were involved and the banking fee breakdown as

well?

G. BYRNE:

Ms. Dunphy, if you would.

D. DUNPHY:

Yes, certainly. We would be using the bank that is the bank for the province,

for the employer, but we can certainly give you a breakdown. Those fees include

the use of debit and credit machines in our various regional offices as well.

It's just done in the Administrative head.

C. TIBBS:

Perfect. Thank you, Ma'am.

1.2.02, 02, Revenue, there was $107,300 less revenue last year compared to what

was budgeted. Can we explain this?

G. BYRNE:

Debbie, I'll ask you to …

D. DUNPHY:

This related revenue account is generally – I'll call it a catch-all for the

department. If we distribute monies, and organizations or entities are not able

to spend it and they return it based on the contract, if it's a different fiscal

year, it has to go back into a general revenue, and not back into an expenditure

line. We have a standard budget that we use every year although this item does

vary from year to year. Of course, with COVID, during '20-'21 there were lots of

shutdowns and reductions so the revenue amount is still considerably lower. On

the flip side, sometimes that means that organizations are spending their money

and they don't have to refund the province, and that's a good news story. We

monitor that every year to have a look to make sure we're budgeting at the

appropriate level.

C. TIBBS:

Great. Thank you, Ma'am.

1.2.03.01, Salaries, there was $119,000 more budgeted this year compared to what

was spent last year. Can this be explained?

G. BYRNE:

I'll just ask you, Debbie.

D. DUNPHY:

Sure.

When we compare the revised number, that is our projection, which is as close to

actuals as we can get it. Sometimes the variance is low because of vacancies,

but we still budget for the full amount of the positions for the division. We

review our salary plan every year and ensure we have sufficient funding for the

positions that are going to be filled during the year. Of course, as some of the

earlier explanations, the increase often relates to the approved salary

increases that were –

CHAIR:

Thank you.

I remind the Member that his speaking time has expired.

We will turn the table to MHA Dinn.

1.1.01 to 1.2.03 inclusive.

J. DINN:

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I certainly join the minister and my colleague in the Official Opposition in

condemning the attack on the Muslim family in Ontario and condemn all forms of

hate speech, hate action to our brothers and sisters who share this country with

us.

I have a question with regard to – I heard it the first time I came as an MHA –

zero-based budgeting. I heard the word attrition and now we have – I know it's

in the budget, the whole notion of balanced-budget legislation.

As I understood it, zero-based budgeting was all about making sure that we spent

only what we needed to spend, then we have attrition. I am assuming, then,

attrition is designed – well, we know longer need to spend that so we're not

spending it. I'm just trying to think how this will fit in with balanced-budget

legislation. I would assume we wouldn't need balanced-budget legislation if

indeed we are already doing our best to count our pennies in this situation.

How will the balanced-budget legislation affect this department? How will they

all work together? I guess this may be a little bit of a philosophical

discussion, but I'm very curious as to how these are going to work together,

especially in a department which is about trying to increase the population of

Newfoundland and Labrador.

G. BYRNE:

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll handle that from the basis – I think the Member properly pointed out that

this is a small P political question and a policy question entwined into one.

With that said, the policy is based on – and, again, referring to the Member's

own description of the initiative, it's to build up, it's to look at

expenditure, not simply from the lens of what did we do last year but to look at

the expenditure from what do we need to spend to do what we need to achieve.

That's what zero-based budgeting is, which the Member correctly sort of

described, in my opinion, it's to look at things with a different lens, a

different eye and a different view than what otherwise might be just simply to

maintain a status quo momentum or inertia.

The interaction of balanced-budget legislation is also a rather straightforward

philosophy that you should only spend what you take in. Any entity, a family, a

business or a government, that has as its operating principle to spend more than

it takes in, there is a consequence to that. But also to collect more revenue,

the balanced-budget legislation also refers in the inverse to take in more than

you spend to actually tax higher than what is needed to be taxed. Or to collect

revenues higher than what may need to be collected is also a consequence of

balanced-budget legislation, which I think everyone would agree with, that you

should really only collect that which you need and don't overtax.

So that's the dichotomy of the two-way street of what balanced-budget

legislation entails. Zero-based budgeting entails just simply looking with fresh

eyes at what your objectives are and what you need to do to achieve those

objectives. I think those are two fairly fundamental principles of good

governance and efficient management of public resources.

J. DINN:

Thank you.

Do you anticipate, then, balanced-budget legislation impacting work that this

department does in terms of, like, projects or initiatives that you would need

to undertake to attract new people to this province?

G. BYRNE:

I think actually it will have a very positive impact on the objectives of the

department. One of the things about attracting people to come to Newfoundland

and Labrador is many, many factors. I would not like to overstate any one

particular factor but many factors are involved in attracting new migrants, new

people to call Newfoundland and Labrador home. One of which – one of which is a

stable fiscal environment for the province. Having stability within the province

provides a great sense of security and stability for the individual or the

family settling here. Having that process, that legislation, that philosophy in

place makes Newfoundland and Labrador a stronger, more attractive place to

attract newcomers to our province.

We are blessed by the fact that we also have significant resources from the

federal government in our employment, development and skills operations to be

able to make sure that Newfoundlanders and Labradorians have access to

resources. That's under contract or commitment from the federal government.

I believe this year, Walt, we have upwards of $230 million to be able to spend

on Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, on Canadians and permanent residents to our

province to be able to obtain the skills that they need to be active in the

labour force and to make labour market adjustments.

To answer your question in short is that it is having such stability within, not

only the individual workplace or the labour market for the ability for

individuals to be able to make gains and make improvements with their own skills

within the labour market is a positive but also to be able to create a more

stable, overall fiscal economic and social environment for the province that is

an attractant for newcomers as well.

J. DINN:

Attrition: How are positions lost to attrition determined? If it's because the

function is no longer being carried out, that's one thing, or is it also that if

we have a retirement, well, we won't be looking to hire back. If that results in

increased workload, that's one thing. If it's actually that work is no longer

being completed, it's another. But the person retires and now the work is shared

amongst others, you've increased the workload on other members in the

department. I'm just wondering how attrition is determined, if we no longer need

a position that we're not filling it.

G. BYRNE:

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The process of attrition is not a simple binary on-off switch that when a

position retires, it automatically gets eliminated. There's an evaluation that's

taken. Attrition targets are established, but each and every position is

evaluated for its ongoing and future merit and requirement.

Debbie Dunphy, you might be able to jump in here with further details. But to

suggest that – and I would not want anyone to leave with this notion that

because someone is retiring, the position is automatically eliminated. That is

not the case. There's an evaluation that is taken as to the utility and to the

importance of the job function to determine whether or not it fits within the

attrition envelope.

Debbie?

D. DUNPHY:

The other thing we do consider is – you mentioned workload and the workload

demands and what the demand is on a particular – whether it's programs or areas.

There's always a consideration given to, can the workload be divided up amongst

the remaining employees or is it a matter of, no, the demand in a particular

area is too high and we wouldn't consider it. As the minister indicated, each

position is evaluated based on the circumstances that we have in front of us for

the time, and not just on a retirement.

J. DINN:

Thank you.

Would it be possible to have an outline or the criteria of just how that

evaluation takes place? I don't know if there's a matrix that would guide that.

That would be appreciated if you do have that.

G. BYRNE:

I'll ask Debbie Dunphy to look at our records to find out exactly what's in

place, not only within Treasury Board, but within the department itself.

Normally, these are taken on a case-by-case basis, but if there are specific

directives or policies in place, we can certainly forward those to you.

J. DINN:

Thank you.

Part of the minister's mandate is to attract skilled workers to immigrate to the

province, but there are already skilled, educated people here who are stuck

delivering food, driving cabs or unloading freight and storage because their

credentials are not recognized. Is there a plan or intention to work with your

federal partners to clear away some of the red tape preventing immigrants from

reaching their full potential in our province?

G. BYRNE:

Yes, there certainly is. We work very collaboratively with the federal

government on issues that are within a federal jurisdiction in terms of

credential recognition and skills, but also within the context of ongoing

bilateral agreements on immigration. The Canada-Newfoundland and Labrador

Immigration Agreement is about to be renewed.

One of the things that I think must be brought to bear in mind is that it is

professional organizations and associations, self-governing bodies, that

determine much of the accreditation process and accreditations are recognized –

and this would be acutely so within health professions, engineering professions,

other highly technical professions where skills are in demand. We have already

begun a process, working with professional organizations, self-governing bodies,

bodies that are mandated through statute of this House of Assembly, for

credential recognition. We have engaged in pilot projects in the past and will

continue to do so on credential recognition.

CHAIR:

Thank you. The Member's speaking time has expired.

1.1.01 to 1.2.03, back to you, MHA Tibbs.

C. TIBBS:

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I just have one more question for this subhead.

Last year there was $18,400 less spent compared to what was budgeted. Can this

be explained, Minister, please?

G. BYRNE:

Mr. Tibbs, would you be able –

C. TIBBS:

My apologies. 1.2.03.

G. BYRNE:

Yes.

C. TIBBS:

Under Salaries, 01.

G. BYRNE:

Yes.

C. TIBBS:

Last year there was $18,400 less spent compared to what was budgeted.

Grants and Subsidies, sorry.

G. BYRNE:

Oh, Grants and Subsidies.

C. TIBBS:

My apologies.

G. BYRNE:

Yes. The Grants and Subsidies, this was a discussion last year at Estimates as

well. There are a number of different initiatives that often are deemed by any

reasonable person to be significant, substantial and worthwhile in doing, but

often there is not a readily accessible or available source of funds to be able

to do them.

Often, programs are designed for applications for tens of thousands of dollars,

if not hundreds of thousands of dollars. Very rarely is a program designed to be

able to provide Memorial University of Newfoundland with a small contribution to

be able to get some health care professional students to travel to Nova Scotia

to participate in a conference or a competition. The literacy award, for

example, the premiers' literacy award; other organizations looking for a small

amount of money to be able to do worthwhile initiatives, this is what this pot

is for.

With COVID, of course, those activities became very rare, almost non-existent.

That is why the funding was down. We spend it as it is needed and as warranted.

C. TIBBS:

Thank you, Minister.

That is all I have for that subhead.

CHAIR:

Thank you, Mr. Tibbs.

Anything further, Mr. Dinn, with our first subheads, 1.1.01 to 1.2.03 inclusive?

J. DINN:

Yes.

CHAIR:

Thank you.

J. DINN:

Under 1.2.02, Administrative Support, Employee Benefits were up by over $20,000

in actuals for last year. Were there any unexpected payouts?

G. BYRNE:

I'll ask Debbie Dunphy to reply.

D. DUNPHY:

This is the workers' compensation costs for the department and it was a

retirement payout of a worker from March of 2020 that was actually paid in the

fiscal year 2020-21.

J. DINN:

Thank you.

Still with that section, Professional Services: There was money budgeted for

Professional Services, but it wasn't spent. The budget for this year is also

zero dollars. What's the reason for this?

G. BYRNE:

Professional Services, this relates, I believe, to audits. Walt or Debbie, you

may be able to jump in here on this particular item.

There was an invoice for federal audit that was paid through the LMDA budget. It

did not appear in the federal agreement and federal funds. That's the cause of

why it was not able to be (inaudible). There was an increase in federal

transfers through the LMTAs, through the Labour Market Transfer Agreements.

We took a decision wherever possible not to spend provincial money but to spend

federal money where it was appropriate and capable of being done, and this was

the case here.

J. DINN:

Thank you.

Under Grants and Subsidies, what was the pot of money for Grants and Subsidies

spent on last year in that section?

G. BYRNE:

Is this under 1.2.02?

J. DINN:

1.2.02.

G. BYRNE:

It was annual funding for Stella's Circle.

J. DINN:

Thank you.

You may have just answered this with my colleague from the Official Opposition.

Grants and Subsidies in 1.2.03: Why was actual spending so low?

G. BYRNE:

Yes, that was the question that MHA Tibbs had brought forward and the answer

remains the same, which is that this was funding that was available on a policy

basis to organizations that had activities, objectives within the mandate of the

department, but there was no readily available source of funding to be able to

do these. Often these are relatively small-scale funding requests, but do

provide a strong incremental value to the department and to the client. With

COVID, it was not able to be spent.

J. DINN:

Okay.

Just back to a few general questions just to finish off that.

I applaud, certainly, the department, if there's a provincial dialogue, to work

with the accreditation organizations to get our skilled immigrant workers into

the workforce and to use the skills that they have.

If it comes down to that, there are certain courses or certain requirements met,

is there a program to assist skilled and educated immigrants to complete the

required training or courses to bring their credentials in line with our

expectations, to bring them up to the level that is needed to be accredited?

G. BYRNE:

Under the Labour Market Transfer Agreements, those who have been accepted as

permanent residents within Newfoundland and Labrador are, indeed, eligible for

job-training grants through the Labour Market Development Agreement and through

the Workforce Development Agreement, which is the bulk of our training funds.

The short answer is, within the context of those who are either citizens or

permanent residents the agreement treats everyone equitably and equally.

J. DINN:

That will help them get their accreditation, then?

G. BYRNE:

(Inaudible.)

J. DINN:

Okay, thank you.

Priority Skills NL is supposed to attract educated and skilled individuals to

settle in the province, but the criteria for academic candidates requires them

to have completed a master's or a Ph.D. at Memorial University.

Can the minister explain the rationale for not including applicants with

credentials from other universities from Canada and abroad?

G. BYRNE:

We accept Memorial University of Newfoundland as our primary target for skills

development. We also accept those with substantial work experience in specified

fields of high demand and high need within Newfoundland and Labrador, so it's

not purely academically based. We would like to consider those in bachelor's

programs, in some respects, but the federal government does have restrictions on

how far that particular program can operate, how deep it can dive in terms of

those academic credentials. But it certainly does become a powerful force for

Memorial University of Newfoundland to be able to attract not only students, but

then future immigrants.

I will ask Katie Norman, since I think it's highly relevant, to give sort of a

brief construct of how other universities could fall within this. But more

importantly, uptake to that particular program.

K. NORMAN:

Thank you for your question.

This is really, I think, to the minister's point. Priority Skills Newfoundland

and Labrador is the first attempt of hopefully more to see in the future of

innovation around pathways to immigration in Newfoundland and Labrador. One of

the things that we were noticing was high uptake in our Provincial Nominee

Program and a lot of interest in our Atlantic Immigration Pilot Program, which

we're pleased will be made permanent.

Priority Skills Newfoundland and Labrador is really focused on attracting highly

qualified individuals to key sectors of our economy. We have the ability to

focus on different areas as our labour market needs change, so three key sectors

were an area of focus for the January 2021 application, which included

aquaculture, the technology sector and health care. I'm pleased to say that

upwards of 12,000 individuals have expressed an interest through that process to

being considered for permanent residency in Newfoundland and Labrador.

Unlike other programs, it doesn't require a direct job offer, because that's

kind of one of the areas where we've been looking at. We want to bring,

obviously, individuals in who have a high likelihood of success in the labour

market. Nobody wants to see the kind of situations, MHA Dinn, that you're

referring to in terms of individuals who have skills but are unable to use them

locally. We're trying to align the credentials that people are bringing with the

local needs that we have and we're unable to meet within our domestic labour

force.

We're in the process of, to use a colloquial term, fishing individuals out of

the pool. We anticipate doing the first draw on the health care sector in the

next number of weeks. There will be more to come on that. We are directly

working with the employer community around identifying who has the best match of

skills.

This is, as I said, an innovative pathway, getting employers involved, trying to

increase the number of highly qualified individuals who choose Newfoundland and

Labrador as their home.

J. DINN:

Thank you.

I'll just finish off on this with regard to education. I taught at Holy Heart.

There is a significant number of students whose families are immigrants, and

then there are those who are refugees who come. They're in the ESL program and

they're in the LEARN program, so bringing their own education skills up. In many

cases, many of them have not been in school until they actually arrive here in

Canada.

A couple of weeks ago I sat down with a group of them virtually, because I know

the teacher; I taught there. I wanted to hear what they had to say about

immigration, especially where it was in the Budget Speech and in the Moya Greene

report about increasing immigration. They liked it here. They love it here. They

said the key thing for them is school. That was the key thing for them, the

school system.

Every one of them planned to go on to post-secondary education. A lot of them

planned to go to MUN. That's where they planned. The parents were very much

focused on education. Now, some of them have just arrived here, in relative

terms, but the one thing that sent shockwaves – and I can guarantee you – is the

whole tuition increase. It has them in a bit of a panic. You look at Memorial.

It is a crown jewel – and I would say CNA, too – in attracting people, that

education and affordability. If there is anything, it's going to have to be

affordable to the people if you want to attract people here. The weather doesn't

always recommend itself.

I'll leave it at that. That has to be something to encourage people to stay

here. It has to be about keeping tuition affordable for people. A lot of these

people have not had a chance to build up a huge nest egg to help put their

children through the post-secondary education. Anyway, I'll leave it at that.

Thank you very much.

CHAIR:

The Chair is recognizing the minister.

G. BYRNE:

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Memorial University of Newfoundland is a valued, important and successful

partner in attracting new Newfoundlanders and Labradorians through its academic

programs, but upon graduation, encouraging them to stay. We're actively engaged

and working with Memorial University of Newfoundland. We're hand in glove in our

immigration efforts to get new graduates to attend. This is one of the reasons

why the new Priority Skills pathway was developed. It was very specifically for

that purpose.

We consulted with not only Memorial, but more importantly – or equally

importantly – with the graduates of Memorial University who hail from other

countries, from other places, and the notion of the immediate job offer to be

able to attain permanent residencies to go through the pathways was a barrier,

so we amended that barrier.

When it comes to tuition offsets, I think that it's fair to say that within the

Budget Speech, the intention of the government is that, definitely, we'll

continue to offer supports on a needs basis to students. I often reflect on this

one: Post-secondary education was within the portfolio that I held. The

Government of Ontario often advertises that they have free tuition. The reason

why they advertise that is because when you take the federal grants and the

provincial grants for post-secondary students, often the total accumulative

value of those grants equal the cost of an undergraduate education for a

domestic student in Ontario.

If you were to take that same figure or that same formula and apply it to

Newfoundland and Labrador – and I say this with my tongue firmly planted in my

cheek. I would not want anyone to take these words and convey them or construe

them out of context. But if we were to take that same logic or that same

philosophy in Newfoundland and Labrador, you could say, with my tongue firmly

planted in my cheek, that we pay students.

Whereas it is free tuition in

Ontario, we pay students to go to university in Newfoundland and Labrador.

I say that just to deliberately bring attention to we have a very generous

grants and subsidies program for tuition offsets and for attendance to

post-secondary education in Newfoundland and Labrador. The government has said

that it fully intends to make first consideration for those who may be impacted

by any decision by Memorial University of Newfoundland to increase tuition

rates.

CHAIR:

Thank you.

Chair recognizes MHA Trimper.

P. TRIMPER:

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

First of all, thank you to the Committee for an opportunity to interact with

this very important department.

Minister, I guess I will start by saying shukran to you for reaching out to the

Muslim Association of Newfoundland and Labrador. I think that it is a very

important to talk to the leadership of that organization in good times and in

bad. This is certainly a very bad time, so thank you for doing that.

I look at this department as key to the future of this province, frankly. We

just are not having enough children and we really need to figure out how we can

fully embrace and retain the good people that are now becoming such an important

part of our economy.

Sitting in Lake Melville, where I am – and my colleague who normally sits behind

me in the House from Labrador West – our economies survive based on new

Canadians, particularly the Filipino community, but also other nations. We

couldn't do it without them right now. I am paying close attention to all the

programs.

Minister, just thinking about some of the situations, you and I are often on the

same routine coming back to St. John's. If I'm not getting a ride from you, Sir,

I am probably jumping in a taxi that is driven by an engineer or a teacher from

Libya or maybe Russia and so on. I am preoccupied with this frustration around

accreditation by professional organizations. We have to find a better way, a

more streamlined way.

I'm fortunate to speak a few languages and interact with some of these folks

and, wow, I can tell we have something of calibre there. Not that driving a taxi

is not a very honourable and successful way, but they have trained and were

pursuing another career and hoping that Canada could provide them an

opportunity. Unfortunately, we have them relegated to something else that they

don't want to do.

I know my colleagues have brought this topic up already. I don't know if you

have a comment, first of all, on that.

G. BYRNE:

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

This is an important initiative. One of the reasons why Priority Skills pathways

is so important is because the credential itself – the Memorial University of

Newfoundland's master's or doctorate program provides the

made-in-Newfoundland-and-Labrador credential for those individuals. But we have

to understand that professional organizations, unless we are to step over them

and their delegated authorities when it comes to accreditation of their own

professional bodies, we have to work proactively and positively with them. We

are doing that and are committed to continuing to do that.

They hold a high standard which we all accept and praise because we all want to

be serviced by professionals, whether it be in the technical fields, in

particular in the health care fields, by individuals who have high skills and

are trusted to be able to provide those important services for us that can have

a direct impact on us.

It's also really important that energy be spent on examining what those

credentials are from foreign jurisdictions to be able to integrate that. Often,

organizations don't have the resources to be able to do that kind of a deep

dive, so that's why the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador is readily

available, and has done so in the past, to work co-operatively with them to

provide them with resources so that they can initiate that work. We'll continue

to do so in the future.

P. TRIMPER:

I think there are two aspects that I'm wondering if we could spend some more

energy on. Perhaps you are already. That's why I look forward to always

participating in these sessions, to learn more.

One is in the area of – so many of these folks, when they arrive here, they're

looking good on paper, and we have this challenge of meeting these

accreditations. I'm wondering if there could be more of a job shadowing or a

mentoring opportunity for some of the folks, especially those in the medical

profession that could be side by side. If we could invest a little bit of

financial support to help those people along. That's sort of one element of it.

The other

part I see is the emotional one and the family ties. So often, either

through the Provincial Nominee Program or others – almost hurdles for them to

get their family members over. I'm just thinking that there could be so more

support in that area.

I've become friends with many people in Happy Valley-Goose Bay, for example,

from the Philippines and that's often the big ask for help when they come to

see, is how can I get my parents here and loved ones and so on. Two thoughts.

G. BYRNE:

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The idea of job shadowing and of different innovative ways to prove credentials,

to get accreditation is really something that we are doing. For example, we

issued a broad-based request for proposals to organizations, to professional

associations and others to offer to us options and requests for funding to be

able to do that. It's initiated and performed by the associations themselves.

They know best what it is, how their profession works and how to be able to

implement such a program such as that.

The approach that we've taken is to issue a request for proposals, to initiate

pilot projects in this regard, to be able to flush out best practices for those

associations, for those accreditation bodies. Also, the Workforce Innovation

Centre – which is a provincial body that allows for innovative projects,

research projects – on a quarterly basis, I believe, they issue requests for

proposals for innovative ideas to be able to work on labour force, labour market

challenges. This would be a perfect example of that. The Workforce Innovation

Centre has done work in this regard. We have resources in place.

You, as a Member of the House of Assembly, through your own interactions as an

engineer, as someone with technical competence and experience in the

environmental sciences, reaching out to encourage that kind of work would be

enormously helpful as well.

P. TRIMPER:

Okay. Thank you, Minister.

I think my final comment on this – and I enjoy doing it very much. I've been

lucky to work for the UN and Foreign Affairs and CIDA in my career overseas in

the Soviet Union and so on. I got to see how, when we would go abroad to provide

technical assistance and so on, often the people that we were there supporting

within six months were now instructing us. I feel that there's a bit of almost a

psychological barrier there holding us back somewhat. I think it's when you go

through experiences like that that you start to realize if it wasn't for that

language or that culture, we could really recognize the talents. So whatever you

can do to integrate that as quickly as possible, you have a fan here.

I thank you very much and I look forward to more discussion. Thank you.

CHAIR:

Thank you.

Is the Committee ready for the question?

Shall 1.1.01 to 1.2.03 inclusive carry?

All those in favour, 'aye.'

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

All those against, 'nay.'

Carried.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01 through 1.2.03 carried.

CHAIR:

Can I have the Clerk call the next set of subheads, please?

CLERK:

2.1.01 to 2.1.07 inclusive.

CHAIR:

Shall 2.1.01 to 2.1.07 inclusive carry?

MHA Tibbs.

C. TIBBS:

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR:

Again, I call 2.1.01 to 2.1.07.

C. TIBBS:

Yes, thank you.

2.1.01, Employment and Training Programs, Salaries: There's $898,400 more

budgeted this year compared to what was spent last year. Can this be explained?

G. BYRNE:

Yes. The budget difference is revised down – there was $908,000 roughly – from

the original 2020-21 budget. Salary costs in this area were taken within the

Workforce Development Agreement to maximize federal funding last year.

You may recall there was a decision by the federal government, as a COVID

response, to increase for all provinces the labour market transfer agreements,

the Workforce Development Agreement, specifically, the WDA, as a COVID response.

At the same time there were challenges related to COVID, so while the federal

government decided for all provinces to increase the WDA, there were some

challenges because of COVID in spending WDA funds. So while we took every

opportunity where we could within the mandate of the agreement or within the

authorities of the agreement to replace provincial-sourced funds with

federal-sourced funds.

Now, with that said, I'll just add this as an additional note, that we were not

the only ones in that situation. As a result, the federal government did allow

for an overrun – what's the word I'm looking for, Walt?

W. MAVIN:

(Inaudible.)

G. BYRNE:

Carry forward. All provinces were able to carry forward additional funds from

their labour market development agreements, labour market transfer agreements

this year from last year over and above what would be the normal formula,

because all provinces face the same circumstances.

C. TIBBS:

Perfect. Thank you, Minister.

Sticking with 2.1.01, Transportation and Communications: There was $9,400 less

spent compared to what was budgeted. Can you explain this and give us a

breakdown of what didn't get spent due to COVID?

G. BYRNE:

Yeah, Walt, I believe you might be the right source for this.

It was COVID-related. What, normally, would Transportation and Communications in

that subhead be used for?

W. MAVIN:

Thank you, Minister.

It was, as the minister noted and similar to other categories, as a result of

COVID. There was less travel related to FPT meetings, in particular. Also in

there are some costs related to telecommunications, of course, which essentially

stayed the same.

C. TIBBS:

Thank you, Sir.

Same heading, Purchased Services: There is $13,100 more budgeted compared to

what was spent last year. How can this be explained, Minister?

G. BYRNE:

Under Purchased Services, that same subhead?

C. TIBBS:

Yes, Minister.

G. BYRNE:

Funding is provided – there are different software packages and so on that fall

under this particular category. We had savings related to – we were able to buy

some of the software packages or the licensing, again, through the LMDA, so it's

sourced from federal funds.

These are very important software packages that are used by CSOs, community

service officers, throughout the province, but we were able to source those

funds through federal sources.

C. TIBBS:

Thank you, Minister.

We'll move on to 2.1.02, Employment Development Programs, Allowances and

Assistance: Can you give us a breakdown, please, on how many clients were funded

in each program?

G. BYRNE:

Walt, take it away, if you don't mind.

W. MAVIN:

Excuse me, just to make sure I'm on the right section: Which

section again,

please?

C. TIBBS:

Allowances and Assistance, 2.1.02.

W. MAVIN:

2.1.02.

C. TIBBS:

Yes, Sir, Allowances and Assistance.

W. MAVIN:

In this particular category, this would be individuals that we are providing

employment development supports to, and that would include short-term assistance

in the range of – they may need a specific type of clothing to attend work and

so any of those types of things we would provide.

In 2020-21, there were 403 individuals that we provided that level of support.

As well, under that particular category of Allowances and Assistance, we still

have a tutoring, ABE placement support for non-EI eligible individuals, for our

adult basic education students.

I'm just going through my list. I apologize because I have quite a number of

numbers here –

C. TIBBS:

I can only imagine.

W. MAVIN:

– on programs. Adult basic education, skills development, there were

approximately 370 individuals supported.

C. TIBBS:

Thank you, Sir.

Under the same heading, 2.1.02, Grants and Subsidies: There was $42,223,400 more

spent last year compared to what was budgeted. Can this be explained?

G. BYRNE:

Yes, thank you, Mr. Chair.

This relates to the federal funding provided for the Essential Worker Support

Program, the top-up program.

C. TIBBS:

Thank you, Minister.

Can we get a list of each organization that received funding and how much?

G. BYRNE:

I believe one will be provided in the binder that will follow.

C. TIBBS:

Thank you, Minister.

We'll move on to Employment and Skills Development – or, sorry, continued –

2.1.03, Labour Market Development Agreement, Professional Services. I'll direct

you to Professional Services. There was $430,800 less spent compared to what was

budgeted. Can this be explained, please?

G. BYRNE:

I'm just going to send you right over to Walt on that.

C. TIBBS:

Your left-hand man.

W. MAVIN:

Thank you, Minister.

Yes, last year, the department along with all jurisdictions across the country

are looking to implement a new system called Targeting Referral and Feedback.

Essentially, what that means is that the federal government, working in concert

with jurisdictions, is providing information related to EI claimants as they

begin claims. The whole goal of the initiative is to engage early in claimants'

activity to encourage return to work.

Last year we had money allocated to develop a system to help facilitate that

process. The Government of Nova Scotia was embarking on a similar system at the

time, so it was viewed that we would work in concert with them. They're doing

some of the development work and so we would defer our investment into the

system development for that year and move it into next year.

C. TIBBS:

Perfect. Thank you, Sir.

Purchased Services, 2.1.03, same heading: There was $31,400 more spent compared

to what was budgeted last year. Can this be explained, please? Under Purchased

Services.

G. BYRNE:

Yes, I believe Mr. Mavin had indicated earlier that we outfitted staff with

laptop computers to be able to work remotely, and this is one of the major

expenses under this particular line item.

C. TIBBS:

All right. Thank you, Minister.

2.1.03, same heading, Property, Furnishings and Equipment: There was $316,100

more spent compared to what was budgeted last year. Can this be explained,

please?

G. BYRNE:

Sorry, I will reverse myself. This is the line for the laptops.

C. TIBBS:

Okay.

G. BYRNE:

The previous line – my apologies on this; I misspoke. The Purchased Services

were for liability insurance for participants in the LMDA project services and

the increase was due to higher than projected costs for Career Cruising and

accountability results management system and software packages. Sorry about

that.

C. TIBBS:

Great. Thank you, Minister.

2.1.03, sticking with it, Allowances and Assistance, I have quite a few

questions here. I'll just concur with them.

There was $21,872,600 less spent compared to what was budgeted last year. Can

this be explained, please?

G. BYRNE:

Yes, as we often refer amongst ourselves as sponsorship; this is school

sponsorship. The number of individuals who came forward looking for assistance

to attend post-secondary institutions, especially at our private colleges and

the College of the North Atlantic, were down during COVID.

C. TIBBS:

Thank you, Minister.

Same heading: There is $2,420,000 more budgeted this year compared to what was

budgeted last year. Can this be explained?

G. BYRNE:

Walt, if you want to …

W. MAVIN:

Thank you, Minister.

Yes, I guess, this relates to the point the minister made earlier in terms of

the provision that was offered by the federal government in terms of a carry

forward into this fiscal year from the previous. This is the first time in the

history of the Labour Market Development Agreement that we've had a

carry-forward provision; prior to that, there was zero carry-forward provision.

This essentially accounts for the additional funding that we have available this

year and our projected activity under this particular program line and that we

anticipate having more students in seats this year.

G. BYRNE:

Excellent. Thank you, Walt.

CHAIR:

Thank you.

2.1.01 to 2.1.07 inclusive.

I'll turn in over to MHA Dinn.

J. DINN:

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Under 2.1.01, the purpose of activities carried out under this heading, if I

understand it correctly, is to help meet the labour market demand. What skills

are in highest demand right now in the provincial economy?

G. BYRNE:

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, for the question.

The labour market itself is best determined by participants within the labour

market. If you look at the performance within the trades and activities within

the trades and which trades really are taking up some of the highest interest,

if you examine, for instance, the trades within the apprenticeship program, we

still have a number of apprentices within the construction electrician trade.

Carpenter, automotive service technician, industrial mechanic millwright,

welder, heavy duty equipment technicians, steam fitter, pipefitter, industrial

electrician and plumber and power line technician, this represents the top 10

trades by the member of registered apprentices in Newfoundland and Labrador. The

top 10 apprenticeships, which I just scheduled off, they account for up to just

about 75 per cent of all registered apprentices in the province.

J. DINN:

Thank you.

Before I go any further, I'm assuming we can have that information as well, and

any questions that my colleague asks, the answers, they would be provided to us

as well.

G. BYRNE:

Oh, definitely.

J. DINN:

Okay, thank you.

Is it possible to provide us with some idea of the gap between the number of

people who currently have these high-demand skills and how many we need?

G. BYRNE:

Labour market assessment and forecasting is performed by the Economic and

Statistics Branch of the Department of Finance. We work co-operatively with that

particular branch to be able to forecast. One of the things about forecasting, I

think it's fair to say, is those forecasts can pivot very quickly. We can

forecast based on major project developments, when those major projects proceed.

We can anticipate that the skills required for oil and gas projects will be very

different than a transmission and electricity transmission project or an

electricity generation project.

What we find is that it's really forecasting to be able to create great value,

best value for the client, for the person to examine skilled labour force

options. It's really done on a short-term cycle, but we can forecast, based on

major project schedules, what long-term forecasts would be. It would be unfair

to me to say that it is an exact science.

J. DINN:

Okay.

With that in mind, then, you don't have a particular number of the gap of how

many more we need because of that?

G. BYRNE:

We work hard to always reassess and re-evaluate those circumstances to be able

to pivot quickly, to be able to provide more accurate information as it becomes

available. In the long term, it is a difficult forecast.

I'll just put it in context. In 2015, there were 1,700 construction electrician

apprentices in place in Newfoundland and Labrador. Today there are about 900.

The labour market adjusts within itself and we provide that information, to the

best of our ability, based on the nature of projects. With Muskrat Falls kind of

moving into generation and transmission, as opposed to construction, obviously,

that directly impacts on that particular trade.

J. DINN:

Yes. I'll probably come back to that. That's an interesting point.

How many people, then, go through the programs offered under this subheading in

an average year? And how many last year? Did the pandemic affect program

availability or uptake?

G. BYRNE:

The answer to the latter is that the pandemic did decrease uptake in training

programs. The decision by individuals to seek new skills to train outside of

their existing professions or to upgrade, the pandemic produced negative or

downward pressure on that.

Mr. Mavin, if you wouldn't mind just giving us a highlight of the numbers.

W. MAVIN:

Yes, thank you, Minister.

If I were to pick one, I guess probably the most significant subheading and

program area would be our Skills Development Program, which is our financial

assistance program for individuals participating in post-secondary training.

This does not include block training for apprentices. This would include all

programs that are offered through public-private training institutions across

the province. Again, it does not include the block training.

Last year we saw a decrease of about 25 per cent in terms of the number of

participants in our Skills Development Program from one year over the other.

J. DINN:

Thank you.

On average, how many people would go through the programs offered in this

heading, roughly?

W. MAVIN:

Specific to the 25 per cent I just referenced, in the fiscal year ending March

31, 2020, approximately 4,000 individuals would've participated in

post-secondary training. This last fiscal year it was a little over 3,000.

J. DINN:

Thank you.

How do these programs measure success? Minister, this is to your point of trying

to figure out the labour market demands. Do you keep statistics on success rate

of the programs? If so, is it possible to provide us with an overview of these

statistics?

G. BYRNE:

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

There are post program surveys that are conducted. The survey of: Did an

individual who participated in a post-secondary training program find employment

within that specific scope of their training program? We do follow-up surveys

with training institutions.

I will say, with the volume of participants and the fact that there is no

mechanism to record their every movement post-graduation, it is somewhat

difficult to do extended survey work with individuals who participate in

training programs in a down-stream fashion, for example for several years post

completion of the training. It's difficult to keep track of them, to do that

survey work, but we do our best to maintain relevancy of the training

institution to be able to work with their former students on post completion

success within the workforce.

J. DINN:

Thank you.

Would it be possible to have any stats that you do have or charts or otherwise,

like the number of how many of those you have been able to follow and keep track

of?

G. BYRNE:

Whatever is available to us will be provided to you. Mr. Mavin, you might be

able to elaborate a little bit on what is available so that the expectation is

understood.

W. MAVIN:

Thank you, Minister.

If I go back to any of the programming that sponsors through the LMDA, we work

very closely with the federal government and all jurisdictions across the

country in terms of an accountability framework. Part of that is, as the

minister noted, post attendance follow-up surveying, but, as well,

administrative data that the federal government would have access to. So they

would be tracking EI claimants, as an example, who participated in an active

intervention such as a skills development program to track whether or not they

are employed two or three years out from graduation of their particular

post-secondary programming.

As the minister noted, whatever information we have available in that regard,

we'd be able to share it with you.

J. DINN:

Perfect.

Just on the question then with regard to the Moya Greene report, she mentions in

it about that government programs need to be evaluated to see if they are still

meeting their requirements or if they're still achieving their objectives. There

was a very clear need for accountability, transparency and evaluation. I'm

thinking what it would require especially if you're going to be evaluating a

program, I mean, it comes down to how many people are working, how many are not

working in that area and so on and so forth. I'm just wondering to put a more

robust evaluation process in place, what would that mean?

G. BYRNE:

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The Premier's Economic Recovery Team, the PERT report that followed the

deliberations of the team are obviously very valuable. It highlighted something

that the PERT team – highlighted something which I think is of value and of

interest to Members of this Assembly. We take those recommendations seriously

and we're considering now as to how we can improve those methodologies to meet

that expectation.

J. DINN:

Thank you.

CHAIR:

Thank you.

2.1.01 to 2.1.07 inclusive.

Back to you MHA Tibbs.

C. TIBBS:

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, can you give us a breakdown of how the funding in this line item is

spent? Sorry, 2.1.03, Labour Market Development Agreement, Allowances and

Assistance, can we get a breakdown of how the funding in this line item is

spent?

G. BYRNE:

Yes, you certainly can. Again, this is, as we referred to, student sponsorships.

Walt, if you wouldn't mind taking it away as to what level of data we can

provide.

W. MAVIN:

Thank you, Minister.

As the minister noted, it includes people that are in sponsorship for

post-secondary training. It would also include individuals participating in a

job-creation program – an allowance. It would also include individuals receiving

self-employment assistance.

We can provide you with the funding that was allocated per each of those program

areas. I will note that we are in the middle of completing our annual audit,

which we're required to provide to the federal government and those expenditures

line by line would be made available.

C. TIBBS:

Thank you, Mr. Mavin.

Same heading, can you give us a breakdown of job creation partnerships, which we

just talked about, for the last year including dollar amounts, group names,

provincial electoral districts and how many were employed?

G. BYRNE:

Yes, we definitely can. It will be provided to you.

C. TIBBS:

Great. Thank you very much, gentlemen.

Can you give us a breakdown of Self-Employment Assistance recipients, including

dollar amounts and business names? Basically the same.

G. BYRNE:

Within the context of privacy, I think I'll pass that over to Mr. Mavin to –

there's full transparency of it, but we'll –

C. TIBBS:

Of course, I'm not looking to breach any privacy, whatsoever. I want to make

quite clear.

W. MAVIN:

Thank you, Minister.

Yes, to the minister's point, due to privacy, I don't think we're going to be

able to provide you with the list of individuals, which is essentially a good

portion of the funding under that category line.

C. TIBBS:

Okay.

W. MAVIN:

But the type of information that we can provide are things such as the types of

business, as an example –

C. TIBBS:

That would be great.

W. MAVIN:

– that are fund through the Self-Employment Assistance program.

C. TIBBS:

We appreciate that, thank you.

Can you give us a breakdown of the ABE college payments by installations?

G. BYRNE:

We will provide that.

C. TIBBS:

Thank you, Minister.

We'll move on to Grants and Subsidies, please. There was $31,135,300 less spent

compared to what was budgeted last year, can this be explained, please?

G. BYRNE:

Go ahead there, Walt.

W. MAVIN:

Thanks, Minister.

That would be a portion of the Job Creation Partnerships program. The funding

for the Job Creation Partnerships program is broken down in two categories.

There are the allowances that I referenced earlier that go direct to the

participants, but there's also funding that goes to the sponsor organization, to

the community development organizations, and such, across the province who are

sponsors to the program.

In '20-'21, obviously, as in other program areas, we did see a decline in the

number of projects that were undertaken for JCP. Wages subsidies is another

program area that comes from Grants and Subsidies, and are subsidies that go

direct to employers with the intent of creating employment. Again, we did see a

drop in that program area. Those are just two examples and we can provide you

with a fuller listing.

C. TIBBS:

Thank you, Mr. Mavin.

Sticking with Grants and Subsidies: There is $32,535,500 more budgeted this year

compared to what was budgeted last year, can this be explained, please?

G. BYRNE:

Again, that was a fortuitous circumstance created by the ability – the federal

government's authority that they granted to all provinces to be able to carry

over uncommitted funds from the previous year.

C. TIBBS:

Thank you, Minister.

Can you give us a breakdown of how funding in this line item was spent?

G. BYRNE:

Again, Walter.

W. MAVIN:

Yes, we can give you a full listing of –

C. TIBBS:

Thank you, Mr. Mavin.

Can you give us a list of employers that receive funding through the JobsNL wage

subsidies, how many jobs were created by each employer and how much funding they

received?

G. BYRNE:

I believe we can. On its surface, it's not subject to privacy limitations

because, of course, it's a business entity receiving government resources and

that must be made transparent. I believe that's the case, isn't it, Walt or

Debbie?

OFFICIAL:

(Inaudible.)

C. TIBBS:

Much appreciated, thank you.

Can you give us a breakdown of the Labour Market Partnerships?

G. BYRNE:

We can do that as well.

C. TIBBS:

Thank you, Sir.

Can you give us a breakdown of the Job Creation Partnerships for the last year,

including dollar amounts, group names, their provincial electoral district and

how many were employed? Different than the Allowances and Assistance section.

G. BYRNE:

I don't know if that data is aggregated at the electoral district level, but as

C. TIBBS:

(Inaudible) cross compare.

G. BYRNE:

– it's aggregated, we can certainly provide that to you.

C. TIBBS:

Okay, perfect. Thank you so much.

Can you give us a breakdown of how research and innovation monies were spent

over the past year?

G. BYRNE:

Yes. Actually, this is an interesting thing because I remember this.

There are various categories, envelopes or opportunities within the Labour

Market Development Agreement to be able to provide funding for various

initiatives. Up until 2017, I believe, we, as a government, had not spent any

money on research and development within the LMDA and we opened up with a volley

through the creation of the Workforce Innovation Centre. That has proven a huge

advantage to us. A lot of great projects have been done through the Workforce

Innovation Centre.

The majority of our spending on research and development projects is a direct

transfer through the WIC, then they solicit proposals through a

request-for-proposal process to get ideas for innovative projects and then they

indicate to us how they'd like the money to disburse. No, actually, I think we

disburse it directly to the WIC and then they disburse it to the client.

So we can also provide you with a full list of projects. That's the Workforce

Innovation Centre, the WIC, what projects they've undertaken so far.

C. TIBBS:

Good stuff. Thank you, Minister.

Moving on to 2.1.04, Workforce Development Agreement, under Salaries: There was

$499,800 more spent compared to what was budgeted last year. Can this be

explained, please?

G. BYRNE:

I'm going to get Debbie. I believe, Debbie, it would be your shop.

D. DUNPHY:

If you recall, back at 2.1.01, we had a significant decrease in the salary cost.

Well, the increase is reflected here because it was charged to the federal

agreement under the WDA.

C. TIBBS:

Thank you very much.

We'll move on to Allowances and Assistance: There was $177,100 less spent

compared to what was budgeted last year. Can this be explained, please?

G. BYRNE:

That's a lower than anticipated demand in this area, the majority of it being

apprenticeship class calls that were unable to be held. So as an apprentice goes

through their block they get the prerequisite number of hours – you know this

better than anybody. We didn't have class calls during the pandemic.

C. TIBBS:

Makes sense. Thank you very much.

Grants and Subsidies, under this heading: There was $5,026,200 more spent last

year compared to what was budgeted. Can this be explained, please?

G. BYRNE:

The federal government approved the additional funding under the agreement.

Walt, if you might be able to pick up the cause from there.

W. MAVIN:

Yeah, thanks, Minister.

Back in the fall of 2020, the federal government, as part of the COVID response,

provided approximately $90 million of additional funding to the province under

this particular funding area, which allowed us to increase our funding under

program areas such as the Job Grant program and other programs that we support

through the WDA program.

C. TIBBS:

Thank you, Mr. Mavin.

There was $6,668,700 more budgeted this year compared to what was spent last

year. Can this be explained, please?

W. MAVIN:

Yes. Again, it goes back to the provision, the carry-forward funding from last

year provided by the federal government in the fall of 2020.

C. TIBBS:

Thank you very much, Sir.

Finally, can you give us a breakdown of funding recipients for each program?

G. BYRNE:

Would you be able to clarify? When you say a breakdown of funding recipients,

we'd have to do an analysis as to whether or not we can provide the names of the

individuals.

C. TIBBS:

Sure.

G. BYRNE:

Is there any other kind of more aggregate or macro-evaluation that you'd be

looking at?

Debbie, would you know if we're restricted from –?

D. DUNPHY:

Yeah. Well, certainly I think we can provide it by program, and certainly if

there are organizations or employers.

C. TIBBS:

Yeah, the macro or the higher level.

D. DUNPHY:

But, again, not the individual.

C. TIBBS:

Of course.

D. DUNPHY:

Yeah.

C. TIBBS:

Totally understandable.

Employment and Skills Development continued. Employment Assistance Programs for

Persons with Disabilities, 2.1.05, Allowances and Assistance: There is

$2,593,100 more budgeted this year compared to what was spent last year. Can

you, please, explain this? That's Employment Assistance Programs for Persons

with Disabilities, Allowances and Assistance.

G. BYRNE:

Well, we have the opportunity. A certain amount of the WDA, as we know, must be

spent directly on individuals with barriers to labour market access because of a

disability.

C. TIBBS:

Of course.

G. BYRNE:

So it's mandated by the federal government that a certain proportion be spent

and we have additional funds, so we intend to spend it in that particular area.

C. TIBBS:

Good area.

Thank you.

CHAIR:

Thank you.

I remind the hon. Member that his speaking time has expired.

2.1.01 to 2.1.07 inclusive.

Back to you, Mr. Dinn.

Thank you.

J. DINN:

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Under 2.1.02, again we're visiting Employment Development Programs. Roughly, how

many people go through the programs offered under this subheading in the average

year? Again, a similar question to what I asked before. Last year, the numbers

and if the pandemic affected program availability.

G. BYRNE:

Mr. Mavin.

W. MAVIN:

Given that there are various numbers of program headings, probably in the

interest of time, it's probably best that we prepare that data and provide that

information to you in a listing.

J. DINN:

Thank you. That will be satisfactory.

Again, it's probably going to be the same answer, but I'll leave it out there, I

guess. The key thing is: How do we measure success in these programs? If there

are any statistics on the success rate of the programs, if you could provide us

with an overview of those stats that would be appreciated as well.

OFFICIAL:

(Inaudible.)

J. DINN:

Thank you.

Under 2.1.03 – I'm not sure if this was asked or not. Would it be possible to

provide a list of the projects funded through the Job Creation Partnerships

program last year? Is there any follow-up with project facilitators, after the

fact, to gauge the impact of the program?

G. BYRNE:

The answer to both questions would be yes. We can, indeed, provide that and

there's always ongoing program evaluation. We have a number of different

projects. In fact, Job Creation Partnerships are one of the most well

subscribed, of highest interest programs that we offer within the portfolio. So

we obviously want to make sure that's on target.

J. DINN:

Thank you.

So we'll get a list of that when you can. That would be great.

Under 2.1.03: What was the source of the unforeseen expense in Supplies last

year?

G. BYRNE:

On Supplies …

J. DINN:

It was $60,700 and now there is nothing budgeted.

G. BYRNE:

Oh, yes. This would be, not software, but soft items related to remote working

of employees, such as wireless headsets, webcams for regional staff for Zoom

meetings, as well as software packages.

J. DINN:

No computers involved with that, though?

G. BYRNE:

Not in this particular item.

J. DINN:

Okay.

G. BYRNE:

We get into that in Property, Furnishings and Equipment. Laptops would be in the

Property, Furnishings and Equipment item.

J. DINN:

Thank you.

Under 2.1.04: As I understand it, in the federal revenue line, it's over $25

million. That's simply the carry-over?

G. BYRNE:

(Inaudible.)

J. DINN:

Perfect.

In 2.1.05, what are the sources of federal revenue listed here?

G. BYRNE:

This is the Workforce Development Agreement, Mr. Chair.

J. DINN:

Thank you.

Under 2.1.06, not all of the money allocated here was actually spent last year.

I assume this has to do with the pandemic?

G. BYRNE:

I'm sorry, the specific question again?

J. DINN:

Sure thing.

Under 2.1.0.6, Youth and Student Services, not all of the money allocated here

was actually spent last year. I assume this is due to the pandemic?

G. BYRNE:

Yes and no. We had a significant influx of federal funds last year into student

employment programming. That had an overall positive effect on student summer

employment. But I would imagine there would have been some impact by COVID as

well.

J. DINN:

Thank you.

Under 2.1.07, Apprenticeship and Trades Certification: The

All Hands on Deck report recommends a

review of the apprenticeship and block training program in the province. Does

the department intend to follow this recommendation?

G. BYRNE:

Yes, it's already started and it's an ongoing initiative. When we look at

apprenticeship and trades certification, it's really important to remember that

it is industry that has the lion's share of responsibilities and roles. We, as a

department, make sure that we provide resources for support, for oversight, for

just the general operations of the apprenticeship program, and we have a great

team doing that. But it's really important to recognize that within the

apprenticeship programming, we have trade councils, apprentice organizations

that provide the oversight.

Walt, I'd really like you to pick up on that, because this is kind of an

important point of understanding how apprenticeships are governed and the

oversight that is provided to the process.

W. MAVIN:

Thank you, Minister.

To pick up on the minister's point, as we all know, the apprenticeship is an

on-the-job experience combined with an in-class training program. On average

about 80 per cent of the skills that are acquired by apprentices are attained in

the workplace, so during their block-workplace training. As a result, we work

very closely with the Trade Advisory Committees, who the minister noted.

What's important to note about the Trade Advisory Committees is that they are

comprised of three key stakeholders in the apprenticeship system: employers,

training institutions and journeypersons. For each trade, depending on the stage

that it's at, in terms of the review, depending on whether or not it's a part of

the Atlantic harmonization program, they play a key role in setting the

direction for that particular trade, including the plan of training, which

includes the block exams and level exams.

The role that we play as a department is one of supporter, facilitator and

coordinator. We work very closely with the Provincial Apprenticeship and

Certification Board, who provides direction on apprenticeships. We can't

understate the importance of the key stakeholders that we have in our

apprenticeship system here in Newfoundland and Labrador.

J. DINN:

Okay, thank you.

In that same section, 2.1.07: The department was mandated to provide better

access to online training and services for apprenticeships and trade

certification. Can you provide an update on the progress in that area?

G. BYRNE:

Yes, we can. In fact, I'll begin by just exposing one of the products, one of

the outcomes.

The virtual training strategist is an online computer system to assist those

looking to take the Red Seal exam, the final national exam that we're having

difficulties in: Individuals who have taken the exam had not been successful.

The virtual learning strategist online program, which we're now working with the

Province of New Brunswick collaboratively to develop an online training system

to be able to support those that have gone through apprenticeship training and

to boost their chances. People who had already met with less success than they

would've liked, we're supporting that. That's just one example.

Also a lot of the block training now, through the pandemic there were elements

of online support and training for that. That's a key component of how online

learning has begun.

The other thing that I note is that often when an apprentice is employed and

successfully employed, embedded in a business, the last thing they really want

to do is to leave their employer and then to go into the classroom for block

training. We're working to try to implement more and more programming so that

the classroom-based block training can be delivered at the workplace itself.

I'll just use this as a sort of an off-the-cuff example: You have an apprentice

working in IOC making really good money. I don't know about you, but the last

thing I'd want to do if I was in that situation is just say: Put the brakes on

it all. Go to Seal Cove and let's go do some block training. If I were the

apprentice, I'd want to try to do that block training as best as I could in Lab

City.

We're always working to new ways to sort of provide that block training and to

try to facilitate as much as possible no gaps, no stoppages in that successful

employment, while at the same time getting apprentices through all the

prerequisite levels that they require.

CHAIR:

Thank you.

I remind the hon. Member his speaking time is expired.

2.1.01 to – oh, I'm sorry. We will recognize MHA Trimper.

P. TRIMPER:

Just one question, Mr. Chair.

I just wondered if from this department's perspective you could provide an

update on the Labrador Aboriginal Training Partnership and your role in it. I

know there are some concerns about their future. Certainly, they're looking for

the next big project. We had a very interesting Estimates here last night, and

the ADM in Transportation and Infrastructure, Mr. John Baker, alluded to what I

think is an interesting idea. I was going to reach out to Mr. Keith Jacque this

morning.

He talked about the need for so many deckhands and other positions aboard the

various ferries in our province. I just wanted to throw those two ideas out to

you and just wondered what you're seeing for LATP. It has proven itself to be a

very nimble and successful way to get a lot of folks with those needed skills

into an opportunity right away.

G. BYRNE:

Yes, thank you, Mr. Chair.

Walter, you're intimately aware of the ongoing evolution of that, so please go

ahead.

W. MAVIN:

Thank you, Minister.

Yes, we have been a proud partner and directly involved with Keith Jacque and

his team for the past number of years. The last conversation I know that myself

and our team had with Keith was probably a couple of months ago. At that time,

he had indicated that there was a little bit of concern getting to the end of

the current federal funding that they had. We had talked about the potential for

the department to be there to support them in some manner if there was a bridge

period that they were looking at.

The Labrador Aboriginal Training Partnership is a key initiative. From our

perspective, we are full in, supporting Keith and his team. We'll do what we can

to support Keith and his team going forward because they've done some tremendous

work in the Labrador area.

P. TRIMPER:

Thank you very much.

CHAIR:

Thank you, MHA Trimper.

2.1.01 to 2.1.07, back to you, MHA Tibbs.

C. TIBBS:

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

We're going to continue 2.1.05, under Employment Assistance Programs for Persons

with Disabilities. Under the Allowances and Assistance, how many clients were

funded under each program?

G. BYRNE:

I'll let Mr. Mavin take that over.

W. MAVIN:

Thank you, Minister.

The most significant program in this particular vote area would be the Supported

Employment program, which provides assistance to individuals with intellectual

disabilities to participate fully in the workforce. We have a network of 17

employment corporations across the province who do tremendous work in

facilitating employment opportunities and supporting persons with intellectual

disabilities in the workplace. We can provide more specific details, but on

average, there would be in excess of 500 individuals with intellectual

disabilities supported through this program annually.

C. TIBBS:

Excellent program.

Thank you.

Which employment corporations receive funding and how much? Could we get a list

of that as well?

G. BYRNE:

Yes, you can.

C. TIBBS:

Thank you very much, Minister.

Under Grants and Subsidies, which organizations have community partnership

agreements with government and how much was allocated to each organization?

G. BYRNE:

We can get you that list.

C. TIBBS:

Thank you very much, Minister.

We'll move to 2.1.06, Youth and Student Services. Allowances and Assistance: How

many clients were funded under the tuition vouchers?

G. BYRNE:

I don't know, Walt, if you have information readily available.

W. MAVIN:

We'd have to go grab that information. It's a separate listing.

D. DUNPHY:

(Inaudible.)

W. MAVIN:

Thank you, Debbie, for reminding me.

In 2021, about 550 individuals.

C. TIBBS:

Thank you very much.

What would we do without Debbie?

G. BYRNE:

There you go.

C. TIBBS:

I bet you ask that all the time.

G. BYRNE:

We do indeed. We do indeed.

C. TIBBS:

Under Grants and Subsidies again, can you give us a breakdown of what

organizations have service agreements for youth and how many youth were funded

by organizations?

W. MAVIN:

Yes, we can provide that listing.

C. TIBBS:

Great, thank you.

Employment Skills Development continued, 2.1.07, Apprenticeship and Trades

Certification: How many active and newly registered apprentices are there?

G. BYRNE:

Fortunately, I'm blessed with people who anticipate good questions and provide

good answers.

Right now, we have, as of the end of the year, March 2021, 3,194 active

apprentices in Newfoundland and Labrador and within the past year 371 newly

registered apprentices.

C. TIBBS:

Great. Thank you, Minister.

Keeping with at the same heading, how many block exams have been administered?

G. BYRNE:

Within the previous year – and, again, March 31 of 2021 – there were 191 block

exams administered.

C. TIBBS:

Thank you, Minister.

How many new journeypersons have been certified?

G. BYRNE:

Within the journeypersons, the …

OFFICIAL:

(Inaudible.)

G. BYRNE:

Whispers here telling me apprentices, 179. Yes, I can see that now.

C. TIBBS:

Thank you, Minister.

How many Trade Advisory Committee meetings have there been?

G. BYRNE:

During the pandemic period, there were 51 Trade Advisory Committee meetings.

C. TIBBS:

Excellent.

We'll move on to Salaries right now – sorry, Transportation and Communications.

There was $181,300 less spent compared to what was budgeted. Can you explain

this and give us a breakdown of what didn't get spent due to COVID?

G. BYRNE:

Yes, there was a significant decrease. A lot energy is spent on Atlantic

harmonization and working on that. Obviously, during the pandemic there was both

a reduction of Atlantic and national meetings, which accounted for $53,000 in

the reduction. There was a reduction in employer meetings within the regions of

around $11,000 and divisional travel was reduced by $10,000 with more virtual

meetings being offered.

C. TIBBS:

Thank you, Minister.

Professional Services: There was $62,500 less spent compared to what was

budgeted. Can this be explained, please?

G. BYRNE:

During the pandemic, one of the things true with the Apprenticeship and Trades

Certification programs is that site visits are made to training institutions.

During the course of the pandemic with, of course, those institutions being

either closed or reduced in operations, those site visits were reduced.

C. TIBBS:

Thank you, Minister.

Under Purchased Services: There was $3,904,900 less spent last year compared to

what was budgeted. Can this be explained, please?

G. BYRNE:

Under the industrial training program there were savings mainly related to the

reduced demand as a result of COVID-19 under the industrial training programs.

There were also reduced costs under the computer program implementation.

C. TIBBS:

Perfect. Thank you, Minister.

We'll move on to Grants and Subsidies: There was $236,400 less spent last year

compared to what was budgeted. Can this be explained, please?

G. BYRNE:

Walt, I think you might be able to take up that cause.

W. MAVIN:

Thank you, Minister.

Essentially, it's lower than anticipated demand for apprenticeship programming.

C. TIBBS:

Makes sense. Thank you, Mr. Mavin.

There's an additional $89,600 budgeted this year compared to last year. Can this

be explained, please?

W. MAVIN:

This is specific to the Office to Advance Women Apprentices and it's simply the

annualization of their funding for '21-'22.

C. TIBBS:

Thank you, Mr. Mavin.

Finally, can you provide a breakdown, please, of the Government Hiring

Apprentices Program by placement?

G. BYRNE:

When you say “placement,” Mr. Chair, what do you mean by placement?

C. TIBBS:

The departments, which department they would –

G. BYRNE:

Oh, I see, okay. Yes, I understand. The program that facilities other

departments to hire apprentices within – yes, we certainly can.

C. TIBBS:

Thank you very much, gentlemen.

That's all I have for that subheading right now.

CHAIR (Reid):

MHA Dinn.

Just for the record, it's MHA Reid filling in for MHA Warr in the Chair.

J. DINN:

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I was wondering who was behind the mask there.

Under

section 2.1.07: There's a slight increase to the budget for Salaries. Was

there a new position?

G. BYRNE:

No, there was approved salary increases, plus the removal of additional funding

under the 27th pay period. There is no new position created there.

J. DINN:

Thank you.

Two other questions on this and then I'm done.

Under Purchased Services: $6.1 million budgeted and quite a bit of money. Is it

possible to give us a brief survey on what this money is usually spent on? I

believe you talked about the industrial relations program, but I'm just

wondering what normally would be spent here, typically be spent on in this

section.

G. BYRNE:

Walt, do you want to take it away?

W. MAVIN:

Yes, the bulk of this money in this particular category is used to support block

training. It's the purchase of block training for apprentices as they move

through, and last year we saw a significant drop in the number of class calls.

J. DINN:

Okay, thank you.

Finally, federal revenue is also way lower than expected. What money were we

expecting but didn't receive?

G. BYRNE:

Go ahead there, Walt.

W. MAVIN:

There was an adjustment there. The federal revenue here is through the Labour

Market Development Agreement. Last year we adjust under the LMDA where we have

requirements for funding. In an area related to my previous answer, when we were

seeing a drop in the class calls there was a subsequent aligned reduction in

federal revenue.

J. DINN:

Just to go back to the block training. The $6.1 million, that's basically for

those who are – to go back and do the classwork that they need?

G. BYRNE:

Go ahead, Walt.

W. MAVIN:

Yes, essentially. As an example, when an apprentice does their pre-employment in

welding, secures an employment placement, attains their required 1,800 hours in

the workplace and then they're required to go to their first block training. The

cost of that training, the tuition at the training institution, is provided on

behalf of the apprentice through this funding.

J. DINN:

So it's a form of tuition freeze or a benefit to a person doing the training.

It's a form of tuition benefit, then.

W. MAVIN:

Yes. The cost of training is provided through the department.

J. DINN:

Okay. I was just looking at it in terms of the tuition freeze from Memorial

University students as well. That's why I'm looking at the comparison. So there

is tuition assistance or tuition is paid for those in trades (inaudible).

G. BYRNE:

Mr. Chair, so it could be pointed out that not everyone who enters the program

would be assisted. Those who are EI eligible would be able to avail of that

particular program, but there are individuals who go through the program that

are not necessarily assisted.

Within the apprenticeship program, if you think about it, there are some very

lucrative supports that are offered highlighting the priority we put on the

skilled trades. In addition, for those clients that are EI eligible, they can,

indeed, get their pre-apprenticeship programming sponsored or supported. Then

when they go into the workplace, there are relatively generous wage subsidies

offered to their employer while they collect the prerequisite number of hours,

working under a journeyperson, to be able to meet the requirements for that

particular block. Then when they go to the block training, if they are EI

eligible, then there are sponsorships that are available and supports that are

offered.

There is a full range of supports that are eligible, but not everybody. There

are individuals that go through, that start the pre-apprenticeship program that

are not EI eligible and that do so either through student loans or other means.

J. DINN:

Would it be possible to get the full cost, then, or a breakdown of the supports?

Like, the $6.1 million, plus the wage subsidy offered to employers and so on and

so forth. Would it be possible to have a – to those doing the trades programs

and that. I'm just trying to get a – so I can compare apples to apples when it

comes to tuition supports and that in place for MUN, plus the supports that are

put in place for those doing a trade or entering the College of the North

Atlantic or elsewhere. That's what I'd be interested in. If you can provide

that, that'd be great.

G. BYRNE:

We certainly can provide a certain amount of information in that regard. I would

not want any Member to assume that it's a fixed cost. Different programs have

different tuition expenses. Different employers, through the wage subsidy, will

be eligible for different amounts of support.

Memorial University of Newfoundland, of course, is a different entity; not under

this department. I guess one could argue that – not to be argumentative about it

– the supports of $230 million-plus for Memorial University and a grant in lieu,

which are not provided to the private institutions, we'd have to factor that in

as a tuition offset or consideration of tuition.

Would the hon. Member be able to refine his request so that we can better

understand it? Because there is certain information that we can provide at an

aggregate level for the trades, but I think, Mr. Chair, he may have also asked

for comparisons to Memorial University of Newfoundland and that's more of a

difficult comparison for us to be able to make.

J. DINN:

I'm just trying to find the line here now, the exact number with regard to

tuition-offset amounts for Memorial. I'm just trying to compare the total number

of support that would be comparable for the trades through CNA. That's basically

what I'm looking at. I think it was some $60 million-plus in terms of grants or

the tuition offset.

Anyway, I'm just trying to get an idea of, like, what's the amount of money –

the money that government will no longer provide, I guess, after this, but

comparing that to what's provided in the trades. Whether it's through the $6.1

million for tuition, wage subsidies and so on and so forth. That's what I'm

looking at. I'll get the exact number and refine that for you, Minister, but I'm

just trying to figure out what is the amount. Because I'm assuming that $6.1

million will continue after this year and after next year.

OFFICIAL:

(Inaudible.)

G. BYRNE:

Yes, that's funded through the LMDA.

So, yes, if the –

J. DINN:

Ah, so I have it here. It's $68 million for tuition offsets. Now, I'm assuming

it's not going to be anything close to that, but I'd be interested in just

seeing what – sort of like what I'm looking at, the total amount of supports,

financial resources that are put in place to those entering the trades versus

those who enter university.

Thank you.

G. BYRNE:

We can certainly do that.

J. DINN:

I'm done with that

section now.

CHAIR:

No further questions on those sections?

C. TIBBS:

No, we can move on to the next, when you're ready, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR:

Okay, we'll vote on those headings.

Sections 2.1.01 to 2.1.07 inclusive, do these subheadings carry?

All those in favour, 'aye.'

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

All those against, 'nay.'

Carried.

On motion, subheads 2.1.01 through 2.1.07 carried.

CLERK:

3.1.01 to 4.1.02 inclusive.

CHAIR:

Okay.

The question is: Do the subheadings 3.1.01 to 4.1.02 inclusive carry?

The next speaker is MHA Tibbs.

C. TIBBS:

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

3.1.01, Client Services, Salaries: There's $871,000 less being budgeted than

what was spent last year; can this be explained, please?

G. BYRNE:

I think Debbie or Walt – Debbie?

D. DUNPHY:

In '20-'21, we charged less of our provincial salaries off here under the LMDA,

so the cost was higher under provincial dollars. But going forward, what we've

done is we had to – again, as I noted at the beginning of our session, we review

our salaries annually, so we did look at attrition and we had to remove the

funding for the 27th pay period, which is significant in this particular

activity, and we've added on the salary increases.

But as you'll see from the investment made in Immigration, there is a

significant increase in salary cost in that branch and so to assist in

facilitating some of those increases, some of the new positions for Immigration,

we did find some vacant positions here that we've eliminated under this head but

will show up to create positions under the immigration program.

C. TIBBS:

Thank you, Ma'am.

Under Transportation and Communications, there's $34,900 more budgeted this year

compared to what was spent last year. Can this be explained, please?

G. BYRNE:

Yes, can that be explained?

D. DUNPHY:

We reviewed our travel requirements and, of course, the last fiscal year was

impacted relating to COVID. But one of the things that are covered here are

postage as well as telecommunications. There are 19 regional offices across the

province, so there is a significant cost for that communication and for some

travel within the offices and to various worksites and such. We did do a refresh

on what we anticipated for '21-22 and we did increase the budget slightly.

C. TIBBS:

Thank you, Ms. Dunphy.

Purchased Services: There was $107,500 more budgeted this year compared to what

was spent last year; can this be explained, please?

G. BYRNE:

There was, last year, lower than anticipated costs due to the offices being

closed for a portion of the fiscal year. The staff were working from home during

COVID, so those Purchased Services faced downward pressure as a result.

C. TIBBS:

Thank you, Minister.

Under Property, Furnishings and Equipment, there was $31,500 more sent last year

compared to what was budgeted. Can this be explained?

G. BYRNE:

Yes, it can. For this particular group of client services officers, this was for

laptops working from home.

C. TIBBS:

Laptops, good stuff. Thank you, Minister.

We move on to Immigration and Workforce Development. I have a couple of general

questions here for you.

Can you provide a breakdown of the provincial nomination program numbers and the

Atlantic Immigration Pilot endorsement?

G. BYRNE:

Yes, we can. The PNP, Provincial Nominee Program, numbers from January 1 to

April 30 in 2021 – we did face a result from COVID and travel restrictions and

so on. We still had a total number of principal applications of 87, with 75

family members following suit, for 162 in the first quarter of 2021. In 2020, we

saw an overall result of 760 PNP applicants, up from 2019, which experienced 689

applicants and their families, which is up from 2018 when we saw 497. PNP

numbers and AIP numbers were on a relatively upward trend for the past number of

years.

C. TIBBS:

Thank you, Minister.

Can you provide a breakdown of retention rates by immigration class with a

comparison to the Atlantic provinces by landing year?

G. BYRNE:

Yes, we can. I don't have it in front of me right now but – yes, I do, actually.

Wow, amazing.

So there's some conversation that occurs that Newfoundland and Labrador is not

doing so well when it comes to retention rates. When we compare it to our

Maritime neighbours, actually Newfoundland and Labrador is doing exceptionally

well.

We've always strived to do better, but in the last five years since 2013-2018,

for example, where we have hard statistics, PEI had a retention rate of around

40 per cent. New Brunswick had a retention rate of around 48 per cent. While

Newfoundland and Labrador had a retention rate of almost 51 per cent. So we

exceeded both the retention rates of PEI and New Brunswick. Nova Scotia in a

five-year period did very well with 62 per cent. But we're anticipating that

with our increased emphasis on retention that we'll start to improve those

numbers as well.

C. TIBBS:

Excellent. I hope so as well.

Can you provide a breakdown of retention rates of international students and

out-of-province, domestic Canadian students that have attended our

post-secondary institutions by landing year?

G. BYRNE:

That's a very, very good question. I'm going to ask Katie Norman if you might

have some of that readily available.

K. NORMAN:

Thank you for the question. That's something that we'd have to connect with

Memorial University on, but we certainly will do and advise if we can provide

that.

C. TIBBS:

Thank you, Ms. Norman.

We'll move on to 4.1.01, Office of Immigration and Multiculturalism, Salaries.

There is $802,800 more budgeted this year, compared to what was spent last year.

Can this be explained, please?

G. BYRNE:

Yes, we can. This common fiscal year, as the budget reflected, there was an

increase in the staffing complement within the Office of Immigration and

Multiculturalism. We intended to provide an additional 18 positions in that

office, with six coming from within existing budget sources. That's for the

first six months and when it's annualized, it will come to about $1.3 million in

annual salary increases.

So we took a decision. I'll proactively or pre-emptively answer potential

questions. For Newfoundland and Labrador to succeed in a national competition

for interest and performance in immigration to attract new applicants to our PNP

and AIPP streams, what would be required to be able to meet what other provinces

are performing at? So we took the example of other jurisdictions. To meet our

intended target of 5,100 new Newfoundlanders and Labradorians per year, we

looked at other jurisdictions and how they were resourcing their offices of

immigration. We looked at their number of staff, how much they spent on

promotions and other things and in order for us to succeed based on existing

data, on existing performance that we can glean from other provinces, this was

the resourcing level that would be required.

C. TIBBS:

Excellent, thank you.

Professional Services: There was $51,400 more budgeted this year compared to

what was spent last year. Can this be explained as well?

G. BYRNE:

On Professional Services, there was increase related to training for staff and

the Newfoundland and Labrador contribution to the Provincial-Territorial

Immigration Secretariat. The annual fees and other things such as promotion are

needed for publications. We needed access to copyrighted stock photography,

which was $5,000. It's different things like that.

C. TIBBS:

Thank you, Minister.

Purchased Services, there seems to be $1,045,800 more budgeted this year

compared to what spent last year. Can this be explained and give a breakdown as

well?

G. BYRNE:

The additional funding this year, as noted in the budget that was read recently,

we're spending resources on active promotion of Newfoundland and Labrador as a

desirable place to seek permanent residency. This year we're anticipating a

$1-million drawdown on promotional activities, and annualized that will become

$2 million. Again, this was taken not just by arbitrary; this would be a nice

thing to have. We looked at other jurisdictions that were successful at

attracting 5,100 people per year and how they did that. We drew on those

experiences to be able to come to the conclusion that in order for us to be

successful in that kind of a global competition for hearts and minds, these are

the resources we needed to spend.

C. TIBBS:

Excellent. We want to be competitive. Thank you, Minister.

CHAIR:

MHA Dinn.

J. DINN:

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Under 4.1.01, is it possible to have an update on the implementation of the

Immigration Action Plan and how many recommendations remain to be implemented?

G. BYRNE:

Yes, I'll ask Katie Norman to go through some of the nuances of this. Katie was

intimately involved in previous experiences within Cabinet Secretariat on this

and now takes up the role as the chief in charge of getting this work done.

Katie?

K. NORMAN:

Thank you, Minister, for that.

MHA Dinn, we can certainly provide you an update on where we are with the

Immigration Action Plan. That's something we're actively tracking. As you're

probably aware, we're in year five of that action plan now. Getting to the point

where, yes, it's important to look back on what we've achieved. I think there is

recognition within the department that with government setting such an ambitious

target, I think, where demographics would suggest where we need to be of

welcoming 5,100 newcomers, we're looking at those actions to, I guess, challenge

ourselves to say: Are they the most ambitious they can be and will they get us

to the target?

We can certainly provide you with an update. I think there are 50-plus actions

in the plan. We can get you detail on that in terms of looking back at what

we've accomplished for sure.

J. DINN:

Excellent.

Do we have an idea of how many recommendations remain to be implemented? Are we

75 per cent complete or …?

K. NORMAN:

I don't have that number in front of me, but we can include that with what we

provide to you.

J. DINN:

Thank you.

Under Purchased Services, it was far lower than it was expected: $53,000 down to

$23,000 and then up to a million-plus.

G. BYRNE:

Yes, I can speak to this, Mr. Chair.

Purchased Services, not only that particular bracket, includes our intention to

up the pace and magnitude of our promotions, our international promotions.

Encompassing that is also trade shows and venues. Expos is probably the better

way to describe that – immigration expos, our attendance at immigration expos

during COVID-19. We've often attended expos in Brussels, in Dublin and other

places. During COVID, they were not taken up. We reduced our expenses

accordingly.

J. DINN:

Basically, you're looking at, this year, that as we get COVID under control more

or less, these expos and that will proceed and we'll be present there.

G. BYRNE:

Well, hopefully. Some of these expos will be run virtually. There's been a pivot

within the organizations, the structures that sponsor or host those kind of

venues or expos. That number also includes the intention to be more aggressive

in terms of promotional campaigns, both digital, online and other medium, to be

able to promote Newfoundland and Labrador as an attractive place to consider

moving to.

J. DINN:

Okay.

I'm familiar with job fairs and the like, so I would assume here a similar

thing. Certain people who go to this are looking for an opportunity elsewhere

and in other parts of the world, let's say. You're probably looking at

professionals, tradespeople and so on and so forth.

G. BYRNE:

That's correct. We participate with the other Atlantic provinces in booths. We

cost share booths at immigration fairs in Brussels, in Dublin and other places,

in Paris.

We're not going to necessarily abandon those markets. I use that word kind of

loosely, but we're not going to abandon those. We're also going to look more

seriously at untrodden ground. Hong Kong is an active place where we need to be

promoting Newfoundland and Labrador as an attractive place to live, within the

Hong Kong community. There are other places.

I had a very interesting conversation just about a week ago with the ambassador

for Uzbekistan to Canada, the United States and Mexico. He's housed in

Washington. They have an embassy that services North America from Washington.

What he explained to me is that Uzbekistan has a population of about 27 million

people, I think, a huge number of which are young and highly educated,

relatively used to a reasonable standard of living, but without jobs. They're

young, highly talented and looking for places.

The Government of Uzbekistan is actively trying to place young people in various

places where – I suspect to relieve some domestic political tensions. You have

young people, highly educated, very highly skilled, with not a whole lot to do.

It wouldn't be a great place to be. The Uzbekistani government is actively

looking for places for their citizens to be able to live, to work and to

generate families. I don't think Uzbekistan would necessarily be considered in

the past a target market or a target place for Newfoundland and Labrador

immigration, but sometimes you just have to think outside the box.

This was an opportunity that came to us not from our own, sort of, reach or

search. It was the ambassador to Canada from Uzbekistan that reached out to me,

and so we're actively working. That's just one of many examples where the same

trodden ground it not necessarily going to be as fruitful as fresh eyes, as new

ground.

J. DINN:

Thank you.

I go back to a point, then, that we made at the beginning, which has to do with

assisting immigrants and that who are already highly skilled, highly educated

and are stuck delivering food, driving cabs and so on and so forth, and who are

probably looking at the jobs that they want. They want jobs where they're going

to be able to use their skill sets. Again, if they're coming, then I'm assuming

they're expecting to work in their field, so I guess we still need to make sure

that those supports are there as well.

Under Grants and Subsidies: Money was left on the table last year and we're

nonetheless increasing the budget for this year. What types of new initiatives,

that we're looking to support, what would they be?

G. BYRNE:

With the Grants and Subsidies, they were revised down last year to $315,000.

That was, indeed, from COVID-19 impacts on organizations and the ability to

lever more federal funding. While there was some downward pressure on demand, as

a result of COVID, it reduced activity within our partner organizations, as a

result of COVID. The other cause of this was we were able to lever federal

funding for projects, which resulted in savings of provincial funds.

J. DINN:

Thank you.

Under 4.1.02, Workforce Development and Productivity Secretariat: There's a

significant drop this year in the budget for Salaries. Have people been moved

out of the office or will the jobs be eliminated?

G. BYRNE:

Walt, I'll get you to look at that. Oh, sorry.

K. NORMAN:

Neither, actually.

What was occurring here in the budget for the last number of years was

Newfoundland and Labrador was hosting two intergovernmental secretariats. One

was the federal-provincial-territorial Forum of Labour Market Ministers and the

other was the Atlantic Workforce Partnership initiative of the Council of

Atlantic Premiers. There were six contractual positions associated that were

being funded out of the Workforce Development Secretariat. Those secretariats

have now moved on to other provinces, respectively, and the individuals have

returned to their home positions within the department. That's why you see that

reduction there for Salaries and across various operating was because the

federal and intergovernmental initiatives have moved on to other jurisdictions.

J. DINN:

Thank you.

I know you mentioned this in answer to another question: What was the number of

regional offices that we currently have under 3.1.01, Client Services?

OFFICIAL:

Nineteen.

G. BYRNE:

We have 19.

J. DINN:

Nineteen. Thank you.

A quick one: Why did spending on Professional Services come in under budget last

year?

G. BYRNE:

There was a decrease in cost related to the labour market, to the secretariat –

both the FLMM, of $110,000, and the AWP, of $10,000, which ended on March 31,

2021, for the reasons that Katie Norman has described.

J. DINN:

Thank you.

CHAIR (Warr):

Thank you.

3.1.01 to 4.1.02 inclusive.

Back to you, MHA Tibbs.

C. TIBBS:

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Under this heading for Revenue - Provincial: Is this the $250 fee for processing

of provincial nominee applications?

G. BYRNE:

This is under 4.1.02?

C. TIBBS:

Yes, Minister.

OFFICIAL:

(Inaudible.)

C. TIBBS:

4.1.01.

G. BYRNE:

4.1.01.

C. TIBBS:

Yeah.

G. BYRNE:

Revenue - Provincial, and I believe the answer is: Yes, it is.

C. TIBBS:

Perfect.

Just a follow-up question stemming from that: If immigration is forecasted to

increase, why is the amount of revenue in this line item budgeted to be the same

as last year?

G. BYRNE:

I will get Katie to answer that. I'm just trying to – sorry, I'm going to hold

you up.

Katie, would you be able to provide a synopsis of the forecasting?

K. NORMAN:

Certainly.

In terms of the province's commitment to immigration, to the target of 5,100,

that will obviously happen over a period of time. There have been impacts at the

federal level in terms of processing times, so we're anticipating – really,

we're at a point of recovery, trying to get back to earlier levels of

immigration that we've seen.

The thing I would note, as well, with the provincial revenue there, is that not

all components of the immigration program have fees. We anticipate seeing

increases in areas like international graduate students, which there is no f