Manitoba Hansard — 39 to 1945 (Sitting 22, 27th Legislature, 4th Session)

27-4-22

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 8: 00 o'clock Thursday, March 11th, 1965 MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable the Member for Inkster. 51 5 MR. GRAY: While my Leader and Honourable Member from Brokenhead have made a very convincing argument in connection with lowering the age, may I also say a word about it.

I think that in the last 65 years of the 20th Century we have depended on the world's leaders, political leaders or men in charge of the world's affairs, and in my short life I have witnes sed three, in my opinion two at least, unnecessary wars and I also blame those elderly states men for the last war because they have not taken sufficient precautions to avoid it. I have lived through the Russian-Japanese war and I still don't know why they were fighting.

I re member that war when I was a child and I have noticed and I have seen where people were herded in freight cars, in freight trains, just like a bunch of cattle and sent them over to the far east to fight what? I still don't know.

Even if I read the history of that war, I still don't know why it was created over a little nonsense, over the fact that they were not satisfied with certain action of Japan, or Japan was not satisfied with Russia, the question of Shanghai, the question of the near east, of the far east, and they created a war where thousands and thous ands of people became homeless, sacrificed their lives, the Russians have fought for the Czar of Russia, which they have hated because instead of giving them a loaf of bread when they demanded it, they sent out the troops to shoot them down.

I still don't know the 14-18 war, why it was fought and millions of lives have been lost and if they would have taken care, the older statesmen so to speak, of stopping Mussolini from going to Ethiopia they wouldn't have had that tragic situation of Hitlerism and Nazism where millions of lives, millions of graves the world over, have been lost for what? I justify the war because otherwise we wouldn't have the freedoms we have today, or the beginning of it, they haven't paid any atten tion at all. When Mussolini invaded Ethiopia, well who cared?

Ethiopia, an African country, nobody paid any attention to it and some of the younger men in this world had warned them that this was the beginning of a very tragic end but no attention was paid . When Hitlerism came in in Germany, the first thing they did is have an appetizer, so to speak, and take the Jews, kill them, and the world was quiet about it. After all, they were only against the Jews and Ameri can capitalists, American money men have helped Hitler in his fight against them. Then they attacked the labour people and the world was still silent. They never paid any attention to it and let it go.

Then after they got through with the Jews, and the labour, they went after the so-called manufacturists, capitalists, and industrialists and what did they do? It's still in our memory. I don't need to tell you what has happened in 1939 to 1945. At that time it was a real sacrifice, they sacrificed for the freedom and democracy of our generations to come. I think perhaps it's time that we gave the younger people a chance to manage at least the com ing 35 years of the 20th Century. I don't think they could do a worse job. They may do a bet ter one. How can we do it?

Interest them in world affairs, interest in political set-up of our country, interest them that millions of dollars instead of spending on ammunition and destruc tion you could have had for education, you could have had hospitalization, you could have had in health, you could have had everything to make this world a better world. Now when you allow a young boy of 18 or 16 to drive a car, when you allow them to par- ticipate in the war or ........ .. . , when you allow them to try and create a more fair world why deprive them from such a thing as taking

part in the election? Probably they would get a much bigger interest in life, their family affairs would have been nicer if the son would discuss with his father the situation of the world, the political situation of the world, and the political situation of our country. So when we expect and anticipate and call on the young people to do everything in defence and every thing in industry and war why deprive them of the privilege of electing their own young men or pick, so to speak, the better one of the elder generation.

So that's the way I feel, that history will condemn us if we would not reduce the age of the young people, to give them opportunity to elect and be elected of those leaders that will come ahead, so that's why in addition to the two very able presentations made by my Leader and the Memb er from Brokenhead, I want to add to them; I want to congratulate them and I hope to see the day when I can congratulate every member of this House before I retire, before I leave this world to the future, and not be able to participate myself, I'd like to see that particularly the question of reducing the age be carried and I want to assure each member of this House they will never regret it .

Their children will not regret it. It will create better family ties which is very important these days in view of the crimes committed everywhere by the young people

516 March 11th, 1965 (MR. GRAY cont'd.) . . . . because they have no other place to use their energy, and this would be a good thing for them. Only on this point I took the liberty of expressing my own personal I opinion as one who is retiring from this world, politically and otherwise, to see that the young people are given every opportunity to take this miserable world and I say "miserable" world and try to make a better way and a better life and a freer life and tell our elder statesmen in the last 65 years of this century they have destroyed many human lives, it's time to quit. MR.

HILLHOUSE: Madam, I believe we are debating the amendment made by my leader to the motion made by the Honourable the Attorney-General that the final report of the Standing Committee of the House on Privileges-and Elections be amended in the following respects, namely: (1) the advisability of reducing the voting age to the age of 18; (2) the advisability of following the practice of The Federal Elections Act providing for two enumerators to be used in urban voting divisions; and (3) the advisability of requesting the Government of Canada to eliminate the 48:-hour blacko�t on certain media at election time.

Regarding the last two items in the amendment made by my leader, I think that it is abundantly clear to all members of this House that these two items meet with the approval of this House. I think it has been demonstrated in past provincial elections that with one enumer ator in an urban voting division it is very unsatisfactory,

whereas under the federal system of two enumerators in an urban system, you have one checking on the other, resulting in a better enumeration being made. As to the advisability of request ing the Government of Canada to eliminate the 48-hour blackout on certain media at election time, I think that this should be done because I do believe that in certain areas this is a rule which is more observed in the breach than in the performance.

I realize, Madam, that it is against the rules of this House to read speeches but I don't think it is against the rules of this House to quote from a speech which you as a member made on a previous occasion. On March 6th, 1964, I spoke in this House on the resolution that the voting age be lowered to 18 and believing that I am not in breach of the rules of this House I would lil;l:e to read from what I then said: "Madam, this resolution has been fairly thoroughly debated and I will endeavour in the course of my remarks to confine myself to arguments that so far have not been advanced.

In the first place, this resolution only asks for the lowering of the voting age to 18 years. I'd like to point out that the lowering of the voting age per se will not change the qualifications of the persons seeking election to this Assembly, nor to a municipal council nor to a school board and although this may seem to be incongruous, incon sistent, and illogical, it can be justified on the grounds that we are dealing with a legal status which can best be described as the most inconsistent of the inconsistent and the most illogical of the illogical. "I refer to the legal status of an infant.

And by that I mean a person under the age of 21 years. To give you an example of the inconsistencies to which I refer. Under our law two young people of the age of 18 years can get married without their parents' consent. They can buy a holl'le, but under our law they cannot sell that home without a court order. If for any reason they have been induced to buy that home by fraud or undue influence, they cannot bring an action in_ the court in their own name to have that transaction set aside. They must bring that action under the name of an "x.' .friend.

If too, Madam, these two young people have mari tal difficulties and these marital difficulties persist and they are still under the age of 21 years, they cannot bring an action in the court in their own names for a divorce or a legal separation. They've got to bring that action in the name of an"x" friend, and the person who is being sued cannot defend in his or her own name, but must defend through a guardian ad litem. "Now, I merely pointed out these things to show that by reducing the voting age to 18 years, we still have certain inconsistencies relating to the legal status of infants.

And I want to make that clear to the House, so that no one is going to accuse me of creating a situation which brings about an inconsistency. What I'd like to point out, is that we're dealing with in consistencies, and we're dealing with matters which cannot be construed as being logical.

I therefore do not support this resolution, Madam, on the grounds of logic or consistency, un- less consistency can be construed as continuing to be inconsistent, but simply because I be- lieve that the time has come for us to take some action to overcome the general apathy which appears to characterize most of our elections in the Province of Manitoba. I feel that if democ- racy is to survive, it is incumbent upon us to do everything within our power to create a greater interest in public affairs.

And I am of the opinion that if we do lower the voting age, there is a possibility that such action on our part would overcome the lack of interest shown by adults I

March 11th, 1965 51 7 (MR. HILLHOUSE cont'd.) . , . , in the province today, It is true, Madarr," --and the Honourable Leader of the NDP today reminded me that I had not always taken this stand, but I admitted that in my speech of 1964 -- (Interjection) -- "It is true, Madam, that I've not always felt this way. It is also true that a number of years ago I opposed a similar resolution when it was brought into this Chamber.

But I now feel that I was wrong in my attitude on that occasion and I am speaking on behalf of this resolution to try and put matters right. -- (Interjection) -- If our youth of today are as bad as they have been painted by the Honourable Member of Hami ota, I feel that we as legislators, adults and/or parents, have by our negative attitude contri buted to this situation. And I think that it is incumbent upon us to take a more positive attitude towards changing that situation.

"I cannot accept the general indictment of youth made by the Member for Hamiota, nor can I agree that the affair at Fort Lauderdale to which he referred is symptomatic of the general lawlessness of youth. I do not condone what happened there, but I do not accept this occurrence as anything more than a spontaneous demonstration, worked up by what youth calls a 'jazz session'. On the other side of the coin, Madam, I would like to refer to the City of Jacksonville in Florida, some two or three hundred miles away from Fort Lauderdale.

There we have a municipal judge by the name of Judge Santora, and Judge Santora has initiated in his court a jury of youths consisting of six individuals and he employs that youth jury in all cases in which juveniles are involved. In the words of Judge Santora, he says, 'Almost always I accept my youth jury's recommendation of sentence, although I may modify it. They ean see through youngsters' lies or recognize the truths of their statement as I cannot. They know family backgrounds and they understand youthful reactions which often seem strange to an older per son.

They have no patience with legal flim flam; They are observant, thoughtful, and as I have found at many trials, impressively just' . This statement, Madam, by an experienced judge, and I might say a very highly respected judge, of a municipal court :is worthy of con sideration, and I think that it goes to show that the incident quoted by the Honourable Member for Hamiota is simply an isolated incident.

"I believe, Madam, that the best way to create responsibility it to place responsibility, and I think there's no better example of that than in the Jewish faith where a boy of thirteen takes his Bar Mitzvah and becomes a full-fledged member of the synagogue. I think that that is one factor which has contributed more than anything else to the very very low incidence of delinquency among Jewish youth. I believe that the Jewish people have the lowest rate of crime participation or juvenile delinquency of any other group of people in the North American conti nent.

I feel too, Madam, that if our youth today are not sufficiently interested in public affairs the fault lies with us, and lies with our educational system, and since we control our educa tional system we have the remedy at hand to correct that situation. "I realize, Madam, that this is not an easy resolution upon which to vote. There are divergent views sincerely and conscientiously held and expressed, but I do urge this House to pass this resolution and thus made the period of 18 to 21 a period of apprenticeship towards full citizenship.

" Those remarks, Madam, were made by me in March 1964, and since making them, I have had no reason to change the thoughts that went behind them. I sincerely believe in what I said then, and I sincerely urge this House to accept amendment of my honourable leader to this motion of concurrence. MR. S. PETERS (Elmwood): Madam Speaker, if no one else wishes to speak, I would move, seconded by the Honourable Member from Seven Oaks that the debate be adjourned. MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion car- ried. MR.

ROBLIN: Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Provincial Secretary, that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair, and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. MOLGAT: Madam Speaker, before the motion is voted on, I'd like to take the ad vantage of the Supply motion to bring to the attention of the House a matter of major concern to the people of Manitoba.

On December 31, 1964, this government announced that an enquiry commission would be appointed to enquire into all questions that had been raised in connection with the Grand Rapids water haulage contract. I do not intend at this time to refer to the water haulage contract, but I would like to urge the government to take this occasion to broad en the terms of reference of the commission, in order that a complete public review can be

518 March 11th, 1965 (MR. MOLGAT cont'd.) . .. .. made of every aspect of the Grand Rapids power project. The Grand Rapids power development is the largest single project ever authorized by a government in this province. That taxpayers of Manitoba have invested some $125 million in this project. When the government announced that Grand Rapids would be constructed, they stated that there was great urgency.. Additional power must be available by 1964.

This was further emphasized at the Legislative Committee hearing in April of 1963, and here are some of the statements in the Committee's report presented to the House on April 24, 1963. I quote directly from the report of the Committee: "In this regard, your Committee received con- I vincing evidence to the effect; (

b) that based upon the still valid forecasts of power require- ments in the province, it was essential that Grand Rapids be capable of delivering power into the Manitoba Hydro System before December, 1964; (

c) that in order to meet the November I 1964 commissioning requirement with regard to the Grand Rapids plant, it was essential that major work on the project be put underway during the summer of 1960 ." Now, during the Committee hearings there were many statements regarding the urgency of the project and the absolute necessity of having it operating on time, and here I quote from the transcr ipt of evidence of the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources on April 2, 1963, page 21. A Hydro official is speaking, and I quote: "It was accordingly necessary to establish a

schedule calling for the first unit at Grand Rapids to be in service by November, 1964, and competion by that date was and is vital. Failure to meet the

schedule could have a very serious result . I noted, Mr. Chairman, that the Premier spoke at the time this matter was raised in the House, of the damage that would be done to the reputation of Manitoba as an industriai centre if we were to experience a brownout or blackout due to a situation where our supplies of electric power became inadequate to meet the needs of our consumers. I would go further, Mr.

Chairman, and point out that the peak loads on our system occur during the most severe winter months, with the result that any inability of the utility to meet these peak loads would not only be a matter of great inconvenience to consumers of all classes, but could be the cause of severe hardship .

" At page 39 of the same transcript, Premier Roblin asks the question, and I quote: "And there would be a critical point in your construction to get that plant in operation on a date certain?" The answer to this by the Hydro official was, and I quote: "Unless something drastic happens to our load that unless we get it in operation in 1964, we will be in dire trouble." Now earlier, in the debate here in the House, the Honourable Mr. Lyon, who was then Minister of Public Utilities, and was responsible for this department, had this to say, and I quote from Hansard, March 6, 1963, page 45.

The Minister is speaking: "I need give you no more cogent example of the necessity for the scheduling than merely to remind you that $140 million, the investment of that amount of capital, if delayed for a period of six months -- six months would amount in interest to $3 1/2 million and if delayed for a year at five percent, your interest or carrying charges on this run to approximately $6 to $7 million, and so one can see immediately that scheduling is all important when you are dealing with these amounts of money, because the delay of the project for six months or a year can result in much higher cost carrying charges on the capital that is to be invested." Later, page 47, same Hansard, the Minister again speaking, and I quote: "The failure to reach the Grand Rapids target date which I have already mentioned in terms of the schedul ing and the importance of carrying charges, could result not only in the loss in carrying charges that I have already mentioned to you, but in a costly power shortage for the Province of Manitoba, because one must remember that there are two items to be considered in sched uling a project of this nature: No. (1)- the supply of power that is to be made available to the people of Manitoba, and the dates on which the power must be available for consumers, in dustrial farms and so on; and No. (2) - the other item of carrying charges that I have men tioned." Nothing, Madam Speaker, can be clearer than these statements by the responsible Minister.

The decision of the government to proceed with the Grand Rapids project as it did, was based on the absolutely critical necessity for power in the fall of 1964. The Minister of Public Utilities was most specific about the substantial losses to be incurred if the date of November, 1964, was not met. He said that if there was a delay of six months there would be a loss through interest charges of $3 1/2 million. Some four months have now passed since the critical date of fall, 1964, and power is still not being produced at Grand Rapids.

How many millions of dollars have we lost, according to the Minist0r' so wn calculations, in his own statement? The people of Manitoba are concerned and with good reason. In July of 1964,

March 11 th, 1965 51 9 (MR. MOLGAT cont'd.) ..... the Winnipeg Tribune carried a story headlined : "Fears About Dam Discounted by Hydro. " The story went on to relate and I quote: "that residents living near the Grand Rapids Power Project have become alarmed this month over rumors that the dam is crumbling. " The story went on to say that an official statement totally discounted re ports that the dam was cracking. In October of 1964 a story appeared in a newspaper from The Pas, The Northern Mail. It indicated that the Grand Rapids Power Project was behind

schedule and that probably the first unit would not be in operation until late December or possibly after the new year. That was headlined, "Hydro Power Project Behind

Schedule . The Manitoba Hydro Power Project at Grand Rapids is admittedly now a long way behind

schedule . " On December 11,,1964 a further story headlined "First Grand Rapids Power Output Delayed" appeared in the Winnipeg Tribune. It announced that first power would not be available until mid January. On January 8, not quite a month later, a news story in the Winnipeg Free Press was headlined "Grand Rapids PJwer This Month -- Hydro" and it indicated that the plant should be in partial opera tion by the end of January.

A little over a month later, on the 15th of Febru ary, a further news story, also from the Winnipeg Free Press, indicated that there would be another four to six weeks delay in production from Grand Rapids. Here we are now almost at mid March and there is no announcement of any power pro duction. This House has now been in session for almost three weeks and there has been no announcement of any kind from the government regarding this project, the biggest single pro ject Manitoba has ever entered into.

Manitobans who have invested some $125 million in this project are properly concerned, particularly when they compare the earlier statements of the responsible minister indicating the dire results of any delay. The people of Manitoba are ask ing -- what's going on at Grand Rapids? Surely, in view of the fact that a judicial enquiry has now been called to study one aspect of the Grand Rapids project, it would be wise to refer this whole question to them. Surely there are other matters which should be referred to the judicial enquiry.

A key question is of course whether there has been any proper planning by the govern ment. Did the government provide adequate and effective liaison between the Public Works Department and Manitoba Hydro? Did the government provide full assurance to Manitoba Hydro that the government could and would build the road from Gypsumville to Grand Rapids within the specified time?

Did the Cabinet interfere with the Manitoba Hydro in deciding whether or not to terminate the water haulage contract with Drake-Pearson in,l961 by forcing Hydro to continue the contract in spite of Drake-Pearson 's failure to perform within the terms of the contract? Was expert advice in the field of transportation which was available to the govern ment provided to Manitoba Hydro? Did the government provide and maintain real and effect ive communication between the government of Manitoba and the government of Saskatchewan to ensure an adequate interchange of power development and supply?

What happened in the case of the road contract to Grand Rapids where the government is now being sued for one half mil lion dollars? What planning did the government in fact do on this whole Grand Rapids project, or did the government jump into a $125 million project without proper plmming? These are only some of the questions that the government must answer. These questions and many more cannot be answered by Manitoba Hydro. They should not be answered by Man itoba Hydro. They are not the responsibility of Manitoba Hydro. The government is the re sponsible body.

The present terms of reference of the enquiry speak only of Manitoba Hydro. This is wrong. The government should not try to shift the responsibility onto Crown Corpora tions or the civil servants. The ministers must clearly accept their responsibility. Tbey must not hide behind their employees. It is obvious to the people of Manitoba that there are many answers required. This can only be done by an enquiry into all aspects of this massive project. The people expect and are entitled to full answers from this government. It is ob vious that other problems exist.

The government cannot expect to satisfy the people of this province by having narrow terms of reference, by limiting the terms of reference to Hydro's actions. I appeal to this government to broaden the terms of reference of the enquiry. MADAM SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre in the Chair . COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution No. 25. HON. MAITLAND B. STEINKOPF, Q. C. (Provincial Secretary) (River Heights): Mr.

520 March 11th, 1965 (MR. STEINKOPF cont'd. ) ... Chairman, when the debate ended the other evening there were some questions that the Honourable Member for Radisson asked me . In particular he was interested in an item that had to do with some uniforms. I wonder if he would like that to be elaborated upon? MR. PAULLEY: As a matter of fact, Mr. Chairman, I'm still waiting for a full elabor ation of the total expenditure of some $366, 000 of taxpayers' money for a so-called item in our budget called Emergency Measures.

The question directed to the Honourable Provincial Sec retary dealing with police uniforms was only a very minor part of the overall picture that I think we are entitled to hear about. So I would appreciate hearing from my friend the Provin cial Secretary regarding police uniforms and Emergency Measures as indeed I would all other aspects of this huge expenditure. MR. STEINKOPF: Mr. Chairman, I hope that my honourable friend has got a good sharp pencil and will take these figures down just as fast as I can give them to him. MR. PAULLEY: ... ....•... .... that Mr.

Chairman, or I believe the recording equip ment in here is far more efficient than the Leader of the New Democratic Party or even the government insofar as producing figures are concerned and if I can't get them this evening from my honourable friend certainly if he speaks them we will read them tomorrow or subsequently in Hansard. MR. STEINKOPF: This will throw out my budget on Hansard as you know . . . -- (Inter jection) -- This will throw out the budget on Hansard that we went over yesterday or day be fore yesterday.

Under the item of personal services, Provincial Emergency Measures co ordinator, one individual, a salary of $10,290.00. MR. PAULLEY: What does he do? MR. STEINKOPF: He's the chief man, he's the manager of the operation. And then he has a deputy; his salary is $6,780. 00. MR. PAULLEY: What does he do? MR. STEINKOPF: He's the deputy and does the usual deputy ..... •. - - (Interjection) -- There's an administration and a training officer, $5, 940. 00. MR. PAULLEY: What does he do? MR. STEINKOPF: I think that these questions ....•. MR. PAULLEY: Mr.

Chairman , if I may, I don't want to appear facetious as far as my questions are concerned but these are the things that I'm interested in. The Minister has said the co-ordinator gets a salary of $10,200 if I heard correctly. That's one of them because the other day my honourable friend if I recall correctly, said there were two co-ordinators. Now we've got one at ten thousand two and then the assistant to the co-ordinator get $6,700 odd. I still don't know what each of them does, and I want to know, and then there was some staff ad ministrator , he's not so well off as the other two boys, he only gets $5,940.

I still don't know what he does and this is the type of information that I'm seeking. MR. STEINKOPF: May I suggest that I run over the list here first and then you'll get probably a broader idea of the operation of the Emergency Measures Organization and then you can see which parts you think are weak because it will take somebody to administer, to be the general manager of the whole organization, and that's the job of the Provincial Emergency Measures Co-ordinator and to detail his work.

Probably it would be easier for us to compre hend if we saw the kind of operations that they have in the Emergency Measures Organization . Do you want the amounts that each one is paid? MR. PAULLEY: Well I'm somewhat interested in that, Mr. Chairman, but I'm more interested in what type of work they're performing in order to be entitled to receive any salary. MR. STEINKOPF: All right, I'll run over them.

There's a financial officer, one finan cial officer, $5, 460; the manager of the eastern zone, salary of $6, 120; manager of the western zone, $6, 180; the manager of the northern zone, $5, 520; a clerk-stenographer Type 3 in the Winnipeg office at $3, 120; a clerk-stenographer 2, Winnipeg, $2, 760; a clerk-stenographer 2 in Winnipeg $2, 400; a clerk-stenographer 2 in the eastern zone $2, 520; a clerk-stenographer 2 in the western zone $3, 060; a clerk-stenographer 2 in the northern zone $3, 180; a clerk-typist in the Winnipeg office at $2, 400; janitors, it's just a general group, at $500; .a communications officer, $6, 240; emergency health service officer, $7, 680; emergency health supply officer, a pharmacist $6, 180; emergency welfare service s officer, $7, 050; instructors, these are part time positions, $2,200; casual assistance and labour, $500.00; a comptroller to be used in the LGDs $500. 00; and that makes a total of $96, 580 which is the first item on the sheet that I hand ed to you yesterday.

And then that's broken down again into the other projects zones. Would • L • I I

March 11th, 1965 52 1 (MR. STEJNKOPF cont'd.) ..... you like the details of those too? MR. PAULLEY: Well if I have to have them this way, I guess I must go through the ordeal or the Provincial Secretary must go through the ordeal that he's going through. I think it would have been far more simple, Mr. Chairman, if my honourable friend had got ahold of either some of these, I think they must be the workers, the stenographers Class 3 and Class 2, etcetera at $3, lOO and $2,700, $2, 400.

I think if the chap, whoever he may be, who's getting the $10,200 had dictated to one of the stenographers, what they're all doing in that particular item of expenditure, the Minister wouldn't have had to bother trying to record it into Hansard. I would hav e preferred that method to what is being done and if my honourable friend would undertake to do that, to have a sort of a synopsis and report of what each one is doing, and tab le it later or forward the information later, I would save him the ordeal of describing each and every part of the budget. MR.

STEJNKOPF: I'll be very happy to supply you with a detailed breakdown of what the jobs are and further may I suggest that if it's convenient you might come to my office and I'll have the co-ordinator there and we can go over the thing in detail with you at that time. MR. PAULLEY: I wonder if it would be safe for me to do so, Mr. Chairman. MR. CAMPBELL: Mr.

Chairman, when I spoke reasonably briefly on this question the other evening, I wanted to deal with another facet of it but it was getting so close to the closing hour that I thought that I should terminate my remarks at that time, but I did want to comment on the other half, as it might be called, of the work of the Emergency Measures Organization inasmuch as I had dealt in my few remarks almost exclusively with what we used to call the Civil Defence end of the project.

If I had any comment to make on the figures that my honour able friend the Leader of the New Democratic Party has been illiciting from the Minister, it would be this, that this large amount of money that is going to what is called personal services is, I feel, sort of characteristic of the type of thing that characterizes the civil defence end of this work.

If this had been listed in the return that was given to us as salary, just plain ordin ary salary, we'd have known what it meant and I guess a good many of us guessed anyway, but why, when the remunerations all through the estimates are called salaries, why would we call them personal services when we come to civil defence and it seems to me that that's a kind of characteristic of the way some of these people do. They must have different names and expres sions for these things and I'm afraid a good many of them are something that they've carried over from their military experience.

Anyway, total is that whether you call it personal services or whether you call it salary, that they amount in total to something like $140, 000 and that's a lot of money and it's a big portion of the estimates and even though-- (Interjection) --yes, when you get the rest of them in, and I was taking this first group.

When you recognize that even though the portion that Manitoba pays is only $71,000, yet we're taxpayers of the Federal Government as well and we're taxpayers of the municipalities as well and we have a pretty big stake in this whole situation, and I'd like to see them get away from this thing of calling a spade a digging instrument and just make it a plain spade or shovel, which might be pretty appropriate for us in the House.

But the part that I wanted to speak on particularly was this question of local emergency, and while I recognize completely the validity of the argument that the Honourable the Minister has used about some organization being well worthwhile to have available for when local emergen cies or catastrophies strike a comunity, I realize this is very important..

But I think that where the mistake has been made, is that we have injected into this whole program, the thought of paying people to do almost everything because civil defence itself in its broader aspect start ed off with quite a coterie of fairly high paid people and then the other organization grew up around them.

Then this same type of a thing has projected itself into the areas where these local emergencies and individual catastrophies can best be done and in my opinion can only be done effectively by the local people themselves organizing and usually on a self-help and com munity help basis and not on a paid basis, and we're getting an organization here even out into the areas where the community effort has always taken care of the thing, but instead of that we 're injecting into it a paid basis that is unnecessary, in my opinion, and that will never work as effectively .

In other words, you can't get the volunteer service to do the work that they would do on a self-help basis when you have this kind of an organization supposed to take care of the situation. Now this concept is not new. Ever since the early days of settlement the local pioneers grouped together on the self-help basis. There's hardly a spring goes by in Manitoba or hardly a harvesting season goes by but what you see in the papers, not one but two or three or maybe a

522 M arch 11th, 1965 (MR. CAMPBELL cont'd.) .... . half dozen cases of where some farmer has been stricken with illness or even death at a busy time and you see the pictures of the group of seed drills or combines, as the case may be, swarming in to one farm to do the work in a day or two that was necessary.

And that's a cats trophy, that's a local emergency, that's a real emergency for the family that's stricken that way and the basic conception of the local peoples doing this has always been, I think , a part of our civilization and you simply can't pay for this kind of thing and it doesn't need to be paid for. In that connection -- because I don't want to debate this question at too great length -- in that connection I notice what my honourable friend the Minister has said about some amer:-. genc i es . that have taken place and he mentioned in particular the loss of a child out in St. Vital.

Well I don't want to be unduly critical, but from what I heard of that particular development out there -- and it was a great tragedy, I believe the child has never been found -- but from what I heard of it , the Emergency Measures Organization did not operate very effectively out there. I'll tell you who I heard did operate effectively; that is the Salvation Army.

I heard that they did a dandy good job and they did it in one of the areas that my honourable friend men tioned the last evening, or the evening before, as one of the ones where the Emergency Meas ures Organization was equipped to do it, and that is supplying rations to people.

But my in formation about the organization out there wasn't good and maybe, maybe it wasn't the Emerg ency Measures Organization that was to blame either, because I have been told that the Emerg ency Measures Organization feels that if they're going to move into an individual municipality, to help in some emergency program, that they feel that it's necessary for them first to get at · least the consent or perhaps even an invitation from the local council or the local authority to move in there. Was this a restraining influence in the case of St.

Vital and is it sometimes, and if it is we ought to develop either one thing or the other. If we're going to have a properly set up emerg ency organization and if they're equipped to function in a case of that kind and really can function we ought to put them in a position that they can move in and get the okay of the people after, because it's just like what somebody mentioned in the House a day or so ago about the fire department standing around and debating whether it 's proper for them to go into another area.

These things can't wait and if there 1s a bar there to the Emergency Measures Organization I think that should be cleared up, in fairness to them. Perhaps it wasn't wholly their fault that they didn't do a better job.

Butt·::> cl•)'l'J on the point that I meant to mention, I recognize the necessity for a local organization to deal with emergencies of one kind and another but I don't think you will ever -- I don't think we can ever get a paid organization to do the job that people always have done and always must be depended upon to do from a neighbourly and co-operative spirit on the basis of self and community help. MR. HRYHORCZUK: Mr.

Chairman, before we pass this item I believe that there are local civil defence officers scattered throughout the province and if the Minister is in a position to, I'd like answers to a couple of questions as to how they are appointed, who appoints them, and whether they are paid any salary or are they working on a voluntary basis? MR. STEINKOPF: I didn't catch -- those specific types that you are asking for. MR. HRYHORCZUK: I think they're known as the civil defence officers appointed in the various localities throughout the province. They're local people. MR.

STEINKOPF: The local people I believe are not paid, the local people, unless they go on a course and I think they get a per diem remuneration if they do leave their area for a course of any kind. MR. HRYHORCZUK: Who appoints them? MR. STEINKOPF: •.....•.• be appointed by the Emergency Measures Organization here in Winnipeg. MR.

SCHREYER: The last question and response is a little confusing, in that we now are given the impression that the local civil defence officers are giving their services free, or at least they're not reimbursed, but then when we look at this EMO breakdown of 165-'66 estimates we find for example project No. 5, Eastern Zone Municipalities, personal services $15,900. Eastern Zone Municipalities, I presume that if salaries are paid here they are being paid to people who live in the Eastern Zone Municipalities.

Now these would be local people or is it being paid to co-ordinators here in Winnipeg who are responsible for Eastern Zone Municipali ties out in the countryside? MR. STEINKOPF: The Eastern Zone No. 5, 6 and 7 there -- Portage la Prairie, Dauphin and Brandon have zone offices and they are manned by a complete organization of professional full-time paid men. There may be honorariums paid as I said before at some time but that •

March 11th, 1965 52 3 (MR. STEllii KOPF cont'd.) . .... would be at a minimum, certainly no more than say $25. 00 a month in places where we haven't got a zone office, in other places than the zone head offices which again are Portage la Prairie, Dauphin and Brandon, and Metro Winnipeg at the head of fice. MR. HRYHORCZUK: Mr. Chairman, just following that up a little bit . I'm not still clear as to just what is being done here and who these people are. I'll make myself a little more specific if I may.

Is there a local civil defence officer in Dauphin -- in Dauphin, Man itoba, and if there is, his name and the amount of his salary or wages annually. MR. STElli!KOPF: It's going to take me a little time to get that information. His name is Bowen I can give you that, and he would be part of the professional staff. Do you still want to know what he gets paid? MR. HRYHORCZUK: Yes. MR. STEINKOPF: Bowen's salary is part of this $7,770 that you see listed under per sonal services and they have a number under that and I am not ab le to spread that out.

In ad dition to Bowen, there is a local man by the name of Fred Mills, I believe, whose salary is $70. 00 a month. He is appointed by the local council, the local municipality. MR. HRYHORC ZUK: ......•........•... have $7, 000 I believe you said and some odd dollars and if this other chap gets $70.00 a month, that's $840. 00 a year, then Mr. Bowen would be getting around $7,000 . Is that correct? MR. STEINKOPF: ..•.....•... there's other staff there as well besides the head man. MR. HRYHORCZUK: Well I don't want to hold up the proceedings of the Committee, Mr. Chairman .

If the Honourable Minister will undertake to give us that information, break it down and give us the names and the salaries at a later date it's quite all right with me . . MR. MARK G. SMERCHA NSKI (Burrows): Mr •.

Chairman, I wonder if we could find out to what extent, if any, does the army participate in these matters of emergency, and it seems to me that there should be some closer co-ordination and possibly assimilation of the duties that might be duplicate and I think that truly the army or the military in the past have acted very effectively in matters of emergency and I'm just wondering if we are not drifting too far away from an organization that can handle emergency very effectively and very expeditiously, into an area where we have to have paid personnel and where the personnel is possibly not as ef ficiently and properly trained as say our armed services are.

And I am just wondering why we have been in the last few years drifting further away from the possibility of proper co ordination in terms of the armed services and the military, because I do think that they have the method of equipment, they have the personnel, they have the proper organization and I think that this is something that should be looked at very closely and I for one, Mr.

Chairman, would like to find out why our emergency measures are gradually and every year drifting into a higher costitem and, of course, drifting into a more complicated organi>;ation when we have on the other hand the armed services, the military, who are very competent and very capable to give us the necessary assistance whenever we have any emergencies and I'd just like to find out from the honourable Minister, why are we drifting into this field rather than rely on the armed services? MR. STElli!KOPF: It's quite obvious. We're just doing just the opposite .

The trend has been to work much closer with the army each year and the co-ordination between the two is getting to be a very realistic thing.

And it's the co-ordination between the -- really the Emerg ency Measures Organization is the catalyst that puts together the civilians and the army per sonnel and most of the operations that have been held in Manitoba have been held under the close supervision of the army, and the army in effect wants to make use of the civilians, to get the maximum use of civilians during any moment of calamity, and I would think that as the experi ence that we've had in this last year or two, or since I've been connected with it, if the trend is the same way, we will find the army as you see being reduced here, which is a. federal responsibility and certainly not a provincial one, and that we will then begin to rely on the organization that the army has been able to spearhead with its experience and equipment and in the help and the training that they have given to the civilians.

I have been able to locate the salary of the northern zone officer in Dauphin for the honourable member for Ethelbert. It's $5, 520. 00. MR. SMERCHANSKI: Mr. Chairman, I'd just like to finalize this, that from last year until this year we have roughly about a 10 percent increase in the cost of our Emergency Meas ures and if I recall rightly, last year it was something of an increase in 10 percent again. Now this hardly speaks well for a matter of being efficient under this item because if we are getting

524 March 11th, 1965 (MR. SMERCHANSKI cont1d. ) ..... more co-operation and organization with the armed serv ices , might the Honourable Minister tell us why the increase and steady increase in the cost? MR. STElNKOPF: Well of course that is a very simple thing to answer because it's a degree of facility that you want to get. The increase is pretty well covered by two fairly large units in the fire fighting end of it, one for Brandon and one for Minnedosa, that have been ordered and they in themselves constitute a good part of the increase.

There was quite a bit mentioned here today about firemen standing by, sort of an "after you, Alphonse" kind of an approach in the Metro Win nipeg area, when a fire happens in a zone outside of their own, and I thought the honourable members would be interested to know that this is a field in which the Emergencies Measures Organization is very interested in, and they put a proposal forward to Metro, and adopted by Metro, that would establish an emergency communication system which would enable all fire departments in the Greater Winnipeg area to operate in times of emerg ency on a single radio frequency.

Now, if this were done, and if we could have obtained the co-ordination for emergency purposes, the same thing could have happened in non-catastrophic situations, and this would have been a great help.

Now Metro requested for this some $22,000 through their budget for -- through EMO -- and it was one of the things that we reluctantly had to reduce to practically nil because of our desire to keep this budget down; but there are many phases of the Emergency Measures Organization that we haven't gone into here, that are not designed just for when an atom bomb can drop -- not here, but maybe in a country that is near to us which -- we may not even be at war , and the radioactive fallout may have an effect here without us even becoming involved. So, I would like to not leave the impression (

a) that we 're relying less on the military; and there's another one that was mentioned, and that was by the Honourable Member for Lake side in connection with the St. Vital matter. I think he's quite correct in saying that Emergency Measures Organization cannot be put into operation in a municipality until they were called upon, and in this case when the Mayor of St.

Vital called me, he asked for the military to come in and help him, and I relayed this to the Emergency Measures Organization , and within five minutes, we had a decision by the Army to be out there and to help and whatever was required of the Emergency Measures Organization it was there on the spot within a very short time, and they were ready to go into action. Had more of their services been required, they would have been available. MR. SMERCHANSKI: I cannot agree with some of the remarks made by the Honourable Minister .

Is he suggesting that the Emergency Measures Organization is going to take care of a catastrophe such as an atomic bomb? I can hardly believe this, because I do think that our military and armed services are far better equipped and can do this. The point I make is that here we have a department that is spending money unnecessarily. If there is a necessity to co-ordinate the fire protection in this province, is it not properly in the Department of Labour, as mentioned by the Honourable Minister of Labour this afternoon?

There seems to be a lack of co-ordination between these two departments, and I would suggest that this governmen t look into the proper co-ordination of these two departments, because from just what the Honourable Minister has said, there's a duplication of services, and there's no need for these duplications of services. And this matter of "After you, Alphonse," I appreciate what the Minister's trying to do, but here again, gentlemen, it seems that as mentioned by the Honourable Member of St.

Boniface, and it happens every winter, two or three youngsters get burnt by fire because some fire protection system was on the fringe of coming in, but nobody asked them or authorized them to come on in. This happens to be an internal matter between the two departments as I see it, and all it has to do is to simply clear out the brush and get on with the job and get it organized. There's no sense of telling us that under the Emergency Measures you're going to do certain things. Get on with the job and get it done. Mr.

Chairman, there is a definite duplication of services under this matter of Emergency Measures as to what should be properly done under the Department of Labour and what should be properly done under the armed services and the military, and I would recommend that we take a good hard look at this department for next year, and I would like to see a reduction in costs, not an increase in costs; and I don't think that it is a proper service for this department to provide fire trucks for any municipality, because if you are, you might as well provide fire trucks for all the municipalities.

And I think that there should be some reason of common sense in this thing, and if you're spending money in this manner, let's appropriate it properly, and let us do that which we're supposed to do, but let us not go out on a spending spree and try and i I

March llth, 1965 52 5 (MR. SMERCHANSKI cont'

d) make a good fellow out of ourselves with one or two municipalities and not with the others. What is the difference between these three or two muni cipalities that are getting fire trucks, and the others that aren •t? MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Chairman, perhaps the Minister would like a specific question at this stage. I would like to ask him, what listing does he have there for the Town of Beause jour? I don't think that Beausejour does have a full-time --the Minister calls it a professiona l co-ordinator -- but I'd be surprised if there weren't at least one or two listings there.

I don't want the names, but perhaps the number and the amount paid I would suspect would be around $50 a month perhaps? Something like that? MR. STEINKOPF: I'm sorry, I don't have it broken down by every municipality here , unless it's in a zone, one of the major zone headquarters, but I can get you the Beausejour fig ure. MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, I believe that I can supply one case where the civil defence work has had a measure of success at least, and I would just like to check with the Honourable the Minister.

Is it a fact that partly due at least to the efforts of civil defence of ficials, that we now do have standardization of hose connections and hydrant connections through out the Metropolitan area , a,nd does quite a bit of the credit for that go to the civil defence organization officials? And then the area close to Winnipeg, are they also standardized with the Metropolitan area? And then, is there progress being made in the other town and cities throughout the province? MR. STEINKOPF: This is a part of the program.

I don't think we lay credit to this de partment for all of that, but it's coming, but through the Metropolitan Civil Defence Organiza tion, a series of meetings are held with the fir emen, with the top people in the Fire Depart ment, with the top people in the Police Department, and there you have representatives of all the fourteen municipalities that make up Metro Winnipeg, and it's a wonderful clearinghouse for them to get together and see the wisdom of doing such things as having uniform couplings and uniform hoses.

And I think it is through the opportunity that's given them to meet together to discuss these things that many good things in the fi eld of uniformity have come out. Now, I can •t say that the same type of meetings are being held all over the province. They are certain ly in the zone headquarters, and some of the uniformity that we'd like to have has been achiev ed, and I think there's more underway. MR. CAMPBELL: Would the Minister be able, Mr.

Chairman, to have laid on the desks of the different groups in the House the information as to whether the Metropolitan area itself is now completely standardized and what the situation is in the rest of the -- (Interjection) - Yes. Yes. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, I'm int erested in the over-all structure of the EMO throughout the province. The Minister has given us here in the sheet that he provides us with, the various projects and they are listed for example as eastern zone municipalities, northern zone municipalities, and so on.

Is there a publication somewhere indicating which municipali ties are in each of these zones. Is this part of the .... MR. STEINKOPF: There isn •t a publication, but as soon as I got it, I asked for the same information and I've now had it supplied to me, and I can have that distributed too without any effort. MR. MOLGAT: Within each one of these areas what is the structure of personnel. Is there one key area? Let us state for example one of the smaller ones which we were discussing earlier, the northern zone municipalities.

I take it that there the structures have one full- time personnel scattered at various points within that area. Now these part-time people, are they chosen by the full-time individual at the headquarters in Dauphin, or are they chosen by the government, and who pays them, and what is the basis on which they are paid? In other words, what is the whole structure that we are using through the province? MR. STEINKOPF: The pay

schedule is that on everything, the federal government pays 75 percent -- 75; on items that are strictly provincial, the province pays the other 25 percent, like all of the costs at the headquarters and in the headquarters of the eastern zone, the north ern zone and the western zone. On the balance , on the municipal end, including the Metro Winnipeg area, the province pays 15 percent and the municipality pays 10 perce nt. MR. MOLGAT: Now, when we come along to items like Project No. 2, where there's $41, 000 of equipment being purchased, the Minister said these were for two pieces of equipment for Minnedosa and Brandon. What other areas are supplied with equipment in this way and is the

526 March 11 th, 1965 (MR. MOLGAT cont 'd) . . . equipment available for local us e, in the case of fire for example, and then how does that tie in wfth the local services already supplied by a fire department, say like in Minnedosa? MR. STEINKOPF: Well, it's special equipment that the Em ergency Measures Oraniza tion would like to have located in that particular area of the province, so they go to Minnedosa or some other town like Neepawa or somewhere that may be near there and ask them if they are prepared to accept one of these on the term s and conditions that the EM Organization would give them.

It is required that for that area in case there's a great fire of some kind, that this truck could go out 25 miles from there. There is special training required to operate the equip ment, and in the event of an emergenc y in Neepawa the regular fire equipm ent is not sufficient, they could use the equipm ent that is there, that's supplied to them. The initiative must come • I believe in the first instance from the Em ergency Measures Organization. It isn •t on request by any mu nicipality in the province. I MR.

MOLGAT: Now I take it that the two items referred to here, that this is the capi- tal for the full purchase of these items in this sam e year. The operating costs are borne by whom ? MR. ST EINKOPF: On the same ratio, 75, 15 and 10. I .. ... ... continued on next page. -

March 11th, 1965 52 7 MR. CHA IRMAN : No. 25 -- passed . Reso lution No. 26. MR. SCHRYER: Mr . Chair man, in connection with the Manitoba Centennial Co rpora tion grants, I don't want to detract from the concept of the Centennial Co rporation and the work that it's trying to do to commem orate the hundredth annivers ary, but I do want to suggest to the Minister and to the governm ent that I, and many people in the area I represent, are not very satisfied with the way in which the corporation is determ ining eligibility of appl ications for these grants.

It is my impres sion that the corporation is interested primarily in enc ouraging muni cipalities to construct or to initiate such projects as museum s, libraries, and other such things of a rather, if I may use the term , glorious nature -- that has some glory to it -- but some municipalities and some people would like very much to use this occasion as a time when they can build more mundane things like sidewalks and so on.

In the four page brochure that the Centennial Corporation puts out, it lists the kinds of projects for which munic ipalities, local improvem ent districts I suppos e, ma y be eligible, such as the building of museum s, libraries, etcetera, etcetera, and half-way down the para graph it includes and/or any public works .

Now having included that reference to any public works it seems to me undesira ble, or at least unfair that the Corpo ration should be turning down applications for sidewalks , because sidewalks are a public work, maybe a little bit too mundane to suit the taste of the governm ent or the Corporation -- I suppose the Corporation since this doesn •t come before the Cabinet -- but I think that we should leave it as much as pos sible to the choice of the local people .

I think that they know best what is good for their muni cipality and I don •t think that it 's difficult to argue that even a mundane project like a sidewalk project can be a suitable comme moratory project for a hundredth anniversa ry. So I would me rely ask that policy here be at least reco nsidered with a view to giving the local people, the local municipa l councils, a little mo re benefit of the doubt when they ap ply for grants on such projects as sidewalks, which I know for a fact is not being done up to now. MR. STEINKOPF: Mr .

Chairman, the brochure that my honourable friend refers to is a resume and a detailed instruction sheet that bears out the conditions of the Federal- Provin cial Grants Agreemen t. It is an agreement between the province and the F1ederal Government that spells out the type of projects that are permissi ble under that agreement. And even if the Centennial Corpor ation were to approve such a project as a sidewalk, there is no doubt in my mind that it would receive very short shift at the federal level, and on whieh I agree.

I think that when one stops to realize what is the purpose of the centennial grant, and not that it is just an ordinary public wo rk, one would then realize that this isn't just a big pot that you have extra mo ney in that can be used for any kind of a thing that has no bearing whatsoever on the celebra tion of Canada's one hundredth birthday. One of the conditions too in that four page folder that was referred to is that the project should be of a lasting nature .

It should also be capable of bearing a sign or som ething that would say that this is a centennial project built in co- operation between the munic ipality, the federal and provincial governm ent as a living memo rial to Canada's Centennial. Now when someo ne suggested a sidewalk the first thing that came to som eone 's mind was maybe footprints could be put into the wet cem ent and this could be some kind of a sign that it was set up there for the purpose of celebrating our centennial .

As a matter of fact, throughout Canada the suggestion of sidewalks , and there has also been some cem etery walls suggested and so me -- using your phrase -- mundane projects such as regular fire halls or civic offices, things that the municipalities will in turn have anyway, centennial or no centennial . So the feel ing I think should be that this is a birthday, this is a celebration, som ething that will be there for another hundred years or a good part of that, that the citizens norm ally wouldn 't have.

The number one project I think that we have had in numbers submitted is that for local parks and these have all been approved . As a matter of fact, the first one was from the Rural Municipality of Argyle for a park in Lundar, and in the true spirit of the centennial , I think a park is som ething that will be there, will live, can be used for an awful long tim e, and keeps within our agreement too with the Feder al Government. MR. SCH REYER: Mr .

Chairman, I appreciate the Minister 's thinking on this matter and I can certainly appreciate the argument that sidwalk construc tion is hardly a typical kind of project to undertake for purposes of a centenary celebration, but I would suggest to him that if it seems like an extreme in the munda ne, that we in Canada are also guilty of an extreme in the direct ion of grandeur. I don •t want to knock other provinces but in one of the provinces

528 March 11th, 1965 (MR. SCHREYER cont •d) .. ... of Canada they have constructed a Confederation Memorial Centre that can accommodate half the population of the province, and even in the boom tourist year which they experienced this year they have hardly been able to fill the concert hall. How ever, I suppose that we can afford this for our hundredth birthday, that if we must err we pre fer to err in the direction of grandeur rather than the direction of the practical.

I have just one reservation about turning down applications for sidewalk construction projects, and that is what do you do in the case of those small municipalities, and there are some villages with a total tax base of only $15 0, 000, total assessment base of $15 0, 000 . 00. There isn •t very much that they can do and they would like to do something, Sidewalks seem the only practical thing to the elders of the village. They apparently have to be turned down because of the regulations.

Well I don't expect the Minister to concern himself with every lo cal problem in the provin ce, but if any sort of leeway is allowed here , I hope that the Minister would so indicate at this time. MR. STEINKOPF: May I assure you, Mr. Chai rman, that we are concerning ourselves with every little project in the province and these sidewalks -- there are two applications that have been in for sidewalks , one of them I think from .the town of Beausejour which -- (Inter je ction ) -- is it not Beausejour -- Tyndall. It was in that area -- I thought it was in the Rural Municipality of Brokenhead, I guess.

But if the municipality as such puts up the application, there is any number of things that they could build within the municipality for everyone in the municipality, and the grant that would be applicable would be for the whole municipality. There will be local celebrations of one kind or another during 1967 and many things of a national nature that will come into the province such as a confederation train, the caravan - the confederation caravan that will give the opportunity to the population to participate in the celebration s during the 1967 year.

We have also hoped that we could get regional projects throughout the province where many municipalities mi ght go together and put in a very large park. We have one that is being put together in the Virden area, and in this way we would eli minate a proliferation of many small little projects that really would have no be'nefit as you say for the town or the little villag e and really not be within the spirit of the centennial. But we are very interested and if a municipality does want assistance in planning a project, that is one of the functions that the Centennial Corporation has been set up for.

We•d be very happy to discuss it with them, either here or send someone out to meet with the local council and discuss ways and means of the best way of setti ng up a project under the Federal Provincial Grants formula, But I really can •t see how an item like a sidew alk, which is a nor mal public work, would qualify under a grant system that was set up primarily to celebrate the Centennial across Canada. MR. SAUL CHERNIACK, Q. C. (St. John's): Mr.

Chairman, I wonder if we could get some clarification -- just a reminder really on the formula, which I have forgotten just now as to how the municipalities become entitled to participate. This of course is the one oppor tunity in a hundred years to make a giant step forward in many of the amenities which so many of the municipalities throughout the province would like to have and have never had the funds or the courage to step out and take hold of. This is a very good opportunity and I am looking forward to the development of cultural endeavours through this means.

Yet I wonder as to the advisability, and I• m wondering whether it's not worth reviewing or reconsidering the policy which gives the municipalities so much power to make its own decision as to what to do, because as the Honourable Minister said, there is great advantage for a number of areas to get together and form a regi onal project.

It seems to me there ought to be some in centive to have them do that because many of them are inclined, I believe , to think in parochial terms, and I feel that in the Metropolitan area of Wim:tipeg, this is an example , where every municipality, I beli eve , in Metropolitan Winnipeg is thinking in terms of parochial interests. I deplore that because I feel that we may get too many small projects and this would damage the opportunity to have one larger really worthwhile project that would best exemplify the Centennial.

Now I •m thinking also in terms of the opportunity which is given to this gover nment to make use of this occasion to develop some of the larger projects which municipalities cannot develop, even under this grant formula, whi ch,as I menti oned before I don't remember too well, but I am sure is not in itself sufficient for some of the projects. I'm thinking in terms of what I hear from my wife is being discussed in Winnipeg Beach.

She happens to get some corres pondence from Winnipeg Beach as to their thinking and they are apparently thinking in terms of doing something which will not only be of service for the year round residents but recognize - I I

March 11th, 1965 529 (MR. CHERNIACK cont'

d) the great influx of people that come for the two months of the year. I too am interested beca use being a ratepayer at Winnipeg Beach and being a resident for some two-twelfths of the year I would have thought that it would have been proper for the government to recognize my right to vote for the member of the Legislature there as well as where I live for five-sixths of the year, and then I would have had an opportunity to make de mands of my member of the Legislature from that area, who I believe is the Honourable Mem ber for Gimli and -- (Interjection) -- Pardon? MR . McLEAN: It depends on how you voted.

MR . CH ERNIACK: Well I would still have the right to speak to him I believe and make demands because I think that it is generally recognized, at least in my party, that we represent all the people in our constituency regardless of how they voted.

I would then have had an opportunity, and of course I now have an opportunity because I happen to be in the same room with him, to ask him just what he is doing to bring about in that small portion of his constituency a project which would go somewhat beyond this alone and would make poss ible that type of public work which would be something that would be a contribu tion to the province and to the many people who come to that area as well as to the people them selves who live there year round.

So I am wondering to what extent the corporation -- what the formula is to begin with, to what extent the corporation or the government is able to add incentives by suggesting even larger projects in those areas which are worthwhile, and I suggest Winnipeg Beach is one of them -- I don 't know if the Honourable Member for Gimli agrees with me but I suggest to him that it mi ght be a good idea -- and I am wondering just how one could go about getting all those private monies which I think the Honourable Minister suggested -- not I think, I know that the Honourable Minister suggested a year ago, and I read it from Hansard, that could be raised from priva te funds.

I don 1t quite see how there is anything being done to obtain contributions from private funds to the centennial project and I am afraid that it is suffering somewhat by some adverse publicity which I think is generated by the fact that they don•t know what to do or how to go about it, as I mentioned, in Metropolitan Winnipeg where they seem to be, in my opinion, parochial and restricting in the allocation of the funds which they would assign for this purpose. MR. STE INKOP F: Mr . Chairman, there are three sets of agreements or three differ ent methods under which funds are being used for the centennial .

The first one is known as the Federal-Provincial Grants Program which is the $950, 000 that you see in our estimates at this tim e, and that was based on $1 . 00 per head for every person in Manitoba. This sum of $950, 000 is matched by the Federal Government and is available to any municipality or city in the pro vince with the exception of the City of Winnipeg and the City of Brandon, and this was an arrangement that was made by the government at the outset.

The rest of the funds can be ob tained from the government on the resolution by a municipality indicating that the municipality will match the amount that they would be entitled to under the federal grants program by the same amount -- a dollar, a dollar, a dollar -- municipality, $1 .00 per head; the Federal Gov ernment, $1. 00; and the Provincial Government, $1. 00.

Now in the case of Winnipeg Beach we have run into a minor problem in that the mayor there has suggested that the population be based on the summer population rather than on the winter population, and I mi ght say he wasn't original because the town of Victoria Beach beat him to it and they suggested the same thing too -- and it makes quite a difference, many times the population in the summer time as there is in the winter time -- but we just have decided that that can't work because we can't cut the dollar up so many ways or can't pin the dollar to the coat of the fellow who is entitled to get it and let him go wherever he is going to go and give that to the municipality that he chooses.

So the village of Winnipeg Beach -- (Interjection) -- town -- all it would be entitled to under the $1 . 00 program is the total amount of its popula tion based on the 1961 census I believe .

The second amount of money is a specific grant in the amount of $2i million that the Federal Government has offered the Province of Manitoba and the Province of Manitoba has ac cepted, to be used towards the cost of a cultural centre to be built, preferably in the provin cial capital, and to be matched by the provincial government, that is on a 50 - 50 basis up to $5 million, so if the province builds a cultural centre in the amount of at least $5 million it is eligible for a $2i million grant from the Federal Government.

This is the extent of the Federal Government's financial participation in the centennial project on a direct dollar basis - - actual cash. However, the Centennial Commiss ion, the Federal Centennial Commiss ion has funds for

530 March 11th, 1965 (MR. STEINKOPF cont'd) ..... specific projects if they are of a national scope of interest. Being Canada's centennial, if som ething happens to be -- if there was a book on Canada' s Con federation built by a resident of say Winnipeg Beach, funds might be available, federally; to provide for the publishing of that book or something of a national interest. They have substantial funds for student exchange.

The town of Winnipeg Beach again will be eligible to send and to receive students in the area during each year starting -- it started last year -- on a student exchange program at no cost to the town or to the people there. The projects, the travelling exhibits, the art shows, the various programs that will be put together by the Centennial Corporation, including the trains and the caravans, will be loca ted throughout the province and we hope that the local communities will transport the children and the grown-ups to wherever the spots are that the affairs are taking place.

The third amount of money is the amount that will be used for three provincial parks in the province, the Shellmouth and Pine Ridge -- the Birds Hill Park, and what's the other one? Oh, the Spruce Woods Park. These are part of the Department of Mines and Natural Resources, and although they are centennial parks they are being looked after by that depart ment. These have been established and the funds will be available for that through another source.

The cost of the building in the Peace Gardens and the Brandon Auditorium will be taken from the provincial federal grants program as agreed on between the province and the Federal Government. You mentioned the private grants. The Centennial Corporation is setting up committees now to solicit private funds, specifically for the centennial cultural centre in Winnipeg, in the amount of $2± million. These funds will be earmarked for the Centennial Centre.

However, as you may have noticed in the news media the other day, a citizen of Charleswood has contributed the magnificent sum of $50, 000 towards the building of an indoor swimm ing pool in the Muni cipality of Charleswood. Well this enables Charleswood to build beyond what it normally would build because of the extra $50, 000, and I believe that that has stimulated others in the area to contribute on a voluntary basis towards the project in Charleswood, and there are other cases of that throughout the province. I think the municipality or the town, whatever it is, also has to have a little initiative.

We have had one major meeting with representatives of some 200 from all over the province and now have committees forming in every municipality in the province to aid them in getting a project started in their community and, if possible, to encourage them to go together and to make a divisional project, something that is more than just the ordinary cairn or again the or dinary sidewalk that we talked about before. Your reference to the parochialism that exists throughout the province is something that I think most of us would norm ally agree with you on, but we had rather a different experience.

Our committee, the building committee of the Centennial Corporation and the citizens commi t tee that is working on the Centennial Cultural Centre, when during the month of January and early February we travelled to the 14 municipalities that make up the Metro Winnipeg area, it was amazing when the story was told to them and they were brought face to face with the pro ject how that parochialism sort of melted away.

There wasn •t one that objected to the Centen nial Centre being built in the capital, and all wished it well and saw the benefits of having a large centre rather than a proliferation of many sm all ones, and all wished the centre well . Most of them are considering a contribution toward the centre. We have only had one so far that has said that they would not contribute.

The Municipali ty of North Kildonan was the first one to come in, who I consider to be anything but parochial, who understood the real me aning of the Centennial and said we decided that with the money that we had, there isn •t very much that we could do with it that meant anything. We know that our children, our people will take

part in the concert hall, the museu m and the planetarium, here take all of the money that you've asked for and without any ifs ands, and buts , sent it in. Tuxedo has done the same and have granted us even more than what we had asked for, as has West Kildonan, and I understand within the next week or so that there will be other municipali ties that will contribute to it. So I think maybe the label of parochialism is a little unfair, a little unjust, because many of these people, as we found out going around, make these decisions only by a newspaper report or something that they've heard over the radio.

No matter how you express it in a let ter or in a pamphlet, it 's pretty hard to conceive, but once they've seen what you're trying to do, I don't really thing they're any more parochial than the rest of us. MR. GRAY: Mr. Chairman, may I direct a question to the Minister ? Can some of the - I .. • I I I I I I

March 11th, 1965 53 1 (MR. GRAY cant •d) . . . . . Centennial funds be used, say Winnipeg Beach as an example , to clear up the beach rather than building a museum or something els e? MR. STEINKOPF: I'm afraid that that would not qualify. That wouldn't be very lasting because it may get dirty right after it got cleaned up again. MR. GORDON W. BEARD (Churchi ll ): Mr. Chairman, I beli eve that we have a problem which is probably of a parochial nature. I understand that there is a Cent�nnial train planned for 1967 by the Federal Government.

This train would be of a museum nature, educational, and follow through the progress of Canada for the last hundred years. Really a type of floating mu seum. The train stops at Dauphin, and Dauphin is somewhere in the south central district I believe. We in the north will not be able to view this train , probably some ten to fift een thous and children in northern Manitoba will have to do without seeing many of these forms of progress that we have enjoyed in the last hundred years.

We tell them about them up there because in many cases it still hasn •t sunk in, but to be able to show how progress has improved in the last hundred years I am sure would help them in their social education. I believe that the population in the north, somewhere around sixty percent is under the age of 21. If the Federal Governmen t could be encouraged to have the train visit our north, I am sure that it would assist in educating the children , encouraging people in the north through recognition and would assist us in the many, many ways and the many problems that we do have.

I would point out that in all probability there are many arguments about the train visiting larger centres such as Winnipeg, Brandon, Dauphin, etcetera, but I would point out also that we in this House see many indications of where the children in southern Manitoba have an advan tage. We welcome them here quite often. The children of southern Manitoba can visit the legis lature , they can visit or we suppose they will be able to visit the planetariu m.

They will be able to take trips to Brandon Fair, Morris Stampede and many of the other activities that go on in the southern part of the province and in a more highly populated area, education becomes much easier to them. I don •t think there is any conceivable way that we could bring the child ren from northern Manitoba down as far as Dauphin but certainly I think it would be a lot easier to take a train of this type up to areas, particularly Churchill, along the whole of the Bay line, which would introduce this type of a program to many of the small communities.

It would only take maybe a half hour's stop or an hour's stop to get them through. But they would see and they would be part of the Centennial celebration , which I'm afraid that come Hl67 they will be left out in the cold. Not that the proportion of money has not been sent up there, but it is certainly hard to do something with a few hundred dollars in each community in comparison to what is be ing done in the larger centres. I would agree with my fellow member, it's certainly cold up there.

They•re used to being out in the cold, but we'd like to warm it up a little for them and I would hope the members of the assembly could see with us to put our first foot forward and try and get a Centennial Train to visit the north. MR. GUTTORMSON: Mr. Chairman, could the Minister indicate what plans have been made to construct approaches to the Disraeli Bridge when the existing approaches are .closed? MR.

STEINKOPF: So far as I know the Department of Public Works and the Metro and City of Winnipeg people are working on a method of closing them and I think that it will be well taken care of by the time it 1s required. It•s not in my department. MR. GUT TORMSON: Mr. Chairman, I'm advised that the present approaches must be closed by May of 1966, so if this is the case, certainly we •ll have to build those new approaches this year. MR. STEINKOPF: I understand that there can be temporary approache s made without too much trouble. MR.

GUT TORMSON: Has the government been able to purchase the land re quired for these new approaches? MR. STEINKOPF: They'll probably be on streets. They'll be on streets . You don't have to buy the stre ets. MR. GUTTORMSON: Well if you •re going to close the present ones, you •re going to have to -- the present approaches to the bridge are certainly going to have to go over areas whe re there are no streets now. MR. STEINKOPF: The only approach we're going to close is the James Street .. .. Well you come over to Rupert Street, MR.

GUTTORMSON: In other words, you don't have to buy any additional land to con struct new approaches 'to the Disraeli Freew ay? MR. STEINKOPF: Not for the temporary ones. I think you would have to for any fi nal

53 2 March 11th, 1965 (MR. STEINKOPF cont'd) .. .. perm anent type of approach. That's part of the Metro planning and as I said that's part of the Departmen t of Public Works. MR. GUTTORMSON: I'm advised that the buildings in the Arts Centre are going to be designed in such a manner they 'll be right against the curb, or the sidwalk such as the Admin istration Building of the new city, for the city, is this correct? MR. STEINKOPF: There isn' t a final design yet.

I believe though that in the sketches that have been prepared up-to-date, that the concert hall which is the first one that's to be built is quite a way back from the sidewalk, the present Main Street sidewalk . The sidewalk may be moved back, but it's not right up to the sidewalk as the present City Hall is . MR. GUTTORMSON: Mr. Chairman, I would hope that with the government spending millions of dollars on this Arts Centre that they wouldn't allow the buildings to be constructed right against the sidewalk. Surely they should be set back so they could be a showpiece rather than form a .. ... down north Main.

My information is and I hope it' s wrong, that some of the buildings are going to be built right flush against the sid<:�walk and this would be an awful mis take in my opinion . MR. STEINK OPF: Well I can assure you that we have as you know appointe d the three best architectural firms in the City. MR. GUTTORMSON: Sorry, I can't hear you. MR. STEINK OPF: We have appointed three of the best architectural firms in the City and I guess in all of Canada and they are building with an eye to anything but making them an eyesore.

We're making the best out of the situation and I think that you will find that when the design is finally completed it will be most acceptable, not only to you, but to all of Manito ba. MR. GUTTORMSON: What prompted me to raise the question was that I understand that some cnncern has been expressed by the architects over this project, over what they're com pelled to do and this is what prompts me to raise this question . MR. STEINKOPF: I c an assure you that there is no concern at all on the part of the archite cts. They're most happy with the design. MR. CHAIRMAN: ll( a) -- MR.

GUTTORMSON: ..... another question. What provisions nave been made for alter nate streets when the present streets are eliminated? I 1m speaking particularly now of Martha Street. I understand this street is goin g to be eliminated. What other streets will be, or where will you get property to replace this present street? MR. STEINK OPF: Well it nasn•t been decided yet whether Martha will be eliminated. Metro will lay out a street plan, I think it is their function to do it. Or is that a city street ?

That would be a city street and we'd have to work out some way of getting around that, if Martha Street is closed. At the present time there is no decisio n made yet whe ther Martha will be closed or not. The only street that is to be closed up to now is James Street. MR. GUTTORMSON: Will the R. S. Robinson building remain where it is or will it have to be removed. I understand that the museum and the new law courts building will be kitty-cor ner from the present police station, and I'm intere sted in knowing whether .this building will re main or will it be removed. MR. STEINKOPF: So far it will remain.

There's no suggestion that it is re quired by .. . MR. JOHN P. TANCHAK (Emerson) : Mr. Chairman, I'm quite interested in the Cen tennial Projects and I1ve had the pleasure of attending quite a few meetings, in fact I was to one meeting at Beausejour, where our good friend Mr. Martin told us more or less what one could do to arouse the people to think. And I don't think -- I do not agree with the Honourable Member from Brokenhead that it is so hard to choose a project.

I don't agree with him at all, because I think that all it requires is a little imagination, a little initiative, and we could think of hundreds of projects which would fit into the centennial celebrations or Centennial year. I would suggest that some of the people who are really int erested in it go and attend some such meetings as are being held by the Centennial Corporation. There's mention made of some smal ler projects.

I do not think, and I think that tne Centennial Corporatio n, the people in Ottawa and the people in the Province of Manitob a are right when they say that only certain projects will be considered; projects of lasting nature, projects of historical nature, cultural nature, or in simple words we could say it •s something that would remind the people of Canada, and also the visitors, the tourists who are expected to visit Manitoba and Canada in that year would remind them of what Canada has accomplished in the fi rst one hundred years; something to show that Canada is a great Canada and not just a northern wilderness like some of our southern I I I • I • •

March 11th, 196 5 53 3 (MR. TANCHAK cont'

d) friends like to think about Canada -- a northern wilderness, only. Some things would remind future generations of where our pioneers, the first people came from , and how they pioneered here in Canada. Even on this subject, these few subjects that 1 mentioned, you could build quite a few prOJects; something that would inspire Canadians to make the next one nundred years more prosperous even than the first one hundred years were. In my constituency at the present time there are about four projects that are in the high est state of development.

At first we had so many projects that it was hard to convince the people to drop some or them, because they were too mi nor or too parochial as they were. But now they •re still four . And I don •t know if the four will be pruned down to two or one. It depends on the people in the local area and also depends on the people who have to sort out these different applications. All of these that I am talking about, in my opinion, are worthwhile. Whether they will all materialize, I do not know. We •ve got one which is to be a replica of a Ukrainian village, and this is to be situated in the little village of Gardenton.

Th1s is being considered, and if completed, it would depict how our forefathers lived in the Ukraine and how they started their settlements here in Manitoba, following the pattern of the society that they were used to in the Old Country from wnere they came, and how this settlement slowly evolved into more modern times as do exist at the pres ent time. And they've got some ideas. They have plans to build thatched houses and a blacksmith shop and so on as they lived in the Old Country in the sm all villages.

Then, they also intend to make just a little cave in the ground to snow how the first people, the first settlers who came to Manitoba, how they had to live. They had no houses and they had no tools to build them, not too many tools to build homes with, and they did not have too much 1noney. So what did they do? They had to dig caves, and spend a few days a few weeks or maybe months in small caves; or they had to sleep under the stars . And that's in this village, this centennial project, they expected to pick this. And then they would show the little mud covered hut or s od-covered hut.

I was down to Saskatchewan and I saw one of those little huts where the pioneers -- their first homes, just sod-roofed huts. And after that they evolve into a little better accommodation, and so on until the present modern homes that they're living in. I think that •s something that would be very nice for future generations to be rem inded of, espe cially the children. Now, there's another project there, a cultural hall, which is in Franklin municipality, considered in Franklin municipality. It'would house a library of old and new books and many reminders of pioneering in that area.

There's another one, a cairn to the memoryofthe pioneers in V ita, including a sm all mus eum . It's not going to be very expensive, a very small mu seum of official documents from the Old Country, first titles and so on, and they will be dis played there in this small museum . Then in Stuartburn, they are considering a little museum of the revolution of the church in Canada, or the progress of the church in Canada; building a small church, a very small church, probably the open air with only four walls, no roof, then a little oetter and so on until they evolve into the present.

I think there are many many different projects tnat may be considered. But tnen when we say as was mentioned -- and I•m not speaking this in any fashion, derogative fashion, but I cannot see how sidewalks would qualify as a Centennial project, because it's so commonplace th at it will remind the people of nothing. It will remind the future generations of nothing. Un less you go into elaborate or very expensive sidewalks, and probably you 1d have some murals on the sidewalk, pictures and so on, then it may be . But then, another thing, wherever we have a Centennial project, we should have markers.

That's one of the requirements. Markers stating that two miles or so from here you will have the privilege of visi ting a centennial project built in such and such a year. How could you have a marker saying you 1ll be able to see sidewalks? MR. SCHREYER: ...... if the honourable member will permit me. I wasn't thinking of sidewalks with Pears on •s footprints in them either. -- (Interjection) -- MR. TANCHAK: Probably. No, I don't. I certainly am not attacking the honourable member, out I just can•t see how that would work, or say clearing the beaches.

It wouldn't be of lasting nature, As far as the Honourable Member for Churchill, I would agree with him that people in the north, in his area, probaoly are entitled and should see the train. It would be quite educative. But I look at these. The train is something very informative, educative and very good for the students, but to me it seems that it's only a side attraction to get people to come and learn som ething there, but it's not going to stay there forever. I've worked with some of the people, with the Cente1mial Corporation of Manitoba and I will say that they •re people who

534 March 11th, 1965 (MR. TANCHAK cont'd) . . . . are highly dedicated to these projects and I'm sure that with their help Manitoba will have something to show in 1967. I MR. CHAIRMAN: ll (a) -- passed. MR. MOLGAT: Mr . Chairman, I think there are some further questions here that are I required. Did I understand the Minister correctly to say that there are no plans at the moment for the permanent re-routing of the Disr aeli Freeway? Or are we to ask those in ... MR. WEIR: I can answer it I think. MR. MOLGAT: If it's a Public Works fine, I•m quite happy to leave it until Public Works.

What about studies insofar as traffic for that area? Will that be under Public Works as well? MR. WEIR: Probably, Mr. Chairman, it would be just as well; I can discuss it now if you like. We have a joint committee, technical committee, which is being established and set up now. There was a meeting this week with Metro, the City, the architects and members of my department to sit down and sort everything out in relation to the site. I'll probably have more information at my disposal by the time my estimates come along than I have now. MR.

MOLGAT: I have no objection to leave this until Public Works if it falls under Pub lic Works responsibilities , Mr. Chairman. That's fine by me. I wonder if the Minister -- if I can check something here. Did I understand correctly that the amount that's here, the $950, 000 represents strictly the $1 .0 0 per head grant ? That is ri ght? MR. STEINKOPF: That's a province' s share, the dollar per head. MR. MOLGAT: That's the province's share ? MR. STEINKOPF: Yes. MR. MOLGAT: So we still have com ing to us another simi lar amount from the federal government? MR.

STEINKO PF: And we hope another Nine Fifty from the municipalities . MR . MOLGAT: The re's no provision here then in these estimates at all insofar as the Arts Centre is concerned? MR. STEINKOPF: No. There may be indirectly. In the case of municipalities that have agreed to contribute, such as North Kildonan, they have taken their $2. 00 grant, $1 . 00 from the province and $1. 00 from the federal grant, and contributed that towards the cost of the cultural centre, so in that way there is part of this money going to the cultural centre.

Also, the City of Winnipeg have agreed to take anything that they might have received out of this and put it into the Arts Centre. MR. MOLGAT: These will be used then for the expenses that will be incurred in •65- '66 with regard to the Arts Centre, is that correct? Because surely we will be involved in the course of '65- '66 with some further expenditures. There 1ll be acquisition of land and we•ll be proceeding with demolitions ; there1ll be matters of the architects and the work that they are to do and presumably some construction will start. Where are those funds ? MR.

STEINKOPF: I'm not too sure of this, but I understand that the financing of that is being done through the post-war fund that was mentioned in the Throne Speech or in the Budget Speech, that the interest that is accumulating off that has been earmarked for the payments to the Centennial Centre, the province' s share, and that's where the funds have been coming from so far. MR. MOLGAT: Is there a breakdown then, Mr. Chairman, for this $950, 000 . 00 ? Could the Minister supply us with a sheet indicating where this is going to be allocated. What is to be done exactly with this Nine Fifty? MR.

STEINKOPF: Each municipality will apply for a project -- can take $L 00 for every pers on in their municipality, and the Centennial Corporation will approve it and then send it to Ottawa and have it approved, and if it 's approved -- we now have, we have just had two back from Ottawa and so once they are approved we've committed say $1 0, 000 out of the 950 towards that. That's the only money that will come out of that. It will all be approved projects of one type or another. MR . MOLGAT: So for the time being then this is a blanket coverage really.

What we are saying here is the province has agreed to put $1 . 00 per capita to match the federal grant. This is the $1 . 00 per capita during the course of the year. Projects as they are approved will take their money out of this particular amount, so we may end up at the year by having all of it used up or we may end up by having a sizable balance depending .. •. MR. STEINKOPF: None of it will be used this year, I don't think, unless people get started. The project has to be well under way before they can draw on the fund, but this is the full amount that will be required between now and the end of 19 6 7.

I - ! - •

March 11th, 1965 53 5 MR. GUTTORMSON� Mr. Chairman, to what extent has the government committed itself to the rehabilitation of the area east of Main Street and what is generally known as the south Point Douglas area. That is -- I am referring to the area south of the Royal Alexandra Hotel. MR.

STEINKOPF: Well this isn' t in the centennial program, it is with Public Works, but I do not -- just from my general information, I don •t think they have committed themselves but the City of Winnipeg is negotiating or is having meetings with the department concerned and a project, an urban renewal scheme may be presented within the next few months for all of that area. MR. GUTTORMSON: When will the first building get under way -- the construction of the new building get under way? MR. STEINKOPF: For the Centennial Centre ? MR. GUT TORMSON: Yes. MR.

STEINKOPF: The plans for the concert hall -- the specifications for the inside of the concert hall have been pretty well frozen, just a few small details and the architects hope to have the final plans ready by about the middle of June and then it should go out to ten der, probably about six weeks. I would say that early in August we should see some start on construction in the area. In the meantime, the site is being cleared and getting ready for the concert hall. MR. GUT TORMSON: The concert hall will be the first building to get constructed?

Will there be any other buildings started this year or is that the only one planned for this year? MR . STEINKOPF: It1s the only building that will actually get started this year. Next year we hope to start on the planetarium and it may work out that the planetarium, which is not quite as difficult a building to build, mi ght even be finished before the concert hall. MR. CHAIRMAN: ll (a) -- MR. MOLGAT: Mr.

Chairman, the other morning at the briefing that we had with the people from the Centennial Corporation -- and by the way I would like the Minister to extend to the people who came there, I think the thanks of all the members of the House, it was a very us eful briefing and a very interesting one. I mis sed however exactly the deadlines that were planned here so far as the finalization of these . The Minister now says that he expects to start next summe r on the concert hall, the next one then will be the planetarium .

Could he tell us when it is expected to start on the museum and what the completion dates are expected to be in each case? MR. STEINKOPF: The concert hall, it is anticipated will take approximately two years to build, so if they start in August of this year it would be through by August of 1967. The plan etarium is about a year and a half to build or less and it should be through by some time in '67, probably around the same time in August, and these of course are figures and dates that have been given to me by the architects.

The mus eum -- the parking area of the museum will probably -- and that's below the museum -- will be started in the summer of 19 66 and that will take about a year, a year and a half to complete and that will be through in 19 67. The museum building on top of it will probably be through in 1968. Then there is a fourth building, the tech nical building that is part of the mus eum . That has not been scheduled yet, it depends on the finances that we have at that tim e, but it probably will be scheduled for co mpletion for the Manitoba Centennial year 1970. MR. MOLGAT: Thank you.

Insofar as the payments now that have been made during the course of the year, the Minister said that the funds would come from the interest out of the Post War Re-est ablishm ent Fund. Now will this be enough to cover the expenditures that we will be faced with in the corn ing year, because as I read it we will be involved in construc tion.

We would also be involved, are we not, in the purchase of an additional piece of property, because the newspapers indicated in January that the province was proceeding with the pur chase of a second block of Main Street property, and the listing here is that the approximate asses sed value of the land in the second block is $754, 950. 00. Well if you take that amount plus the obvious other expenses that will be involved, I don't see where there's going to be enough money to make these payments . Is there another item under Capital ? I haven't seen one. MR .

STEINKOPF: There was a capital item last year of $2 million. MR. SMERCHANSKI: Might I ask the Minister, in that $950, 000, the $600, 000 that's coming from the War and Post War Service Fund, that is not included in that amount, is that correct? MR. STEINKOPF: It's not included in the million nine fifty?

536 March 11 th, 19 65 MR. SMERCHANSKI: No. Is it included in the $950 ,0 00 on the project grants . MR. STEINKOPF: Oh , no, no. MR. SMERCHANSKI: So that for this year, next year, we•ll have roughly $1, 200, 000 which will be composed of this year's $600, 000 and next year's $600, 000 from the War and Post-War Service. So does this me an the total amount is roughly $2, 150, 000 which the pro vince has set aside for the grant? MR. STE INKOP F: No, I don't think you can use the figure of $60 0, 000 at all in these calculations . That's just the source of the funds.

The million -- the $950, 000 stands on its own feet. It is a separate grant and the province's share of the Centennial Centre is $3 million, of which I believe $2 million was set aside last year in the Capital Account and another $1 mil lion will have to be set aside if, as, and when it is required. MR. SMERCHANSKI: Well where are we going to use this $6 00, 000? Will that be an additional expenditure in terms of the project grants ? MR.

STEINKOPF: That's a capital grant and it was just used as an indication of the source of where the $2 million was going to come from -- or the $3 million was going to come out of the earnings of the Post-War Fund, and I think that was done so that it wouldn't appear, and it isn •t an extra direct tax on the taxpayer -- the Centennial Centre. MR. SMERCHANSKI: Does this mean then that $3 million and $600, 000 a year, this is stretched to work through the five years, is this it ? MR . STEINKOPF: It could be or you could make it retroactive.

It all depends on how that's going to be handled by the people in the Treasury Department. I'm sorry I haven•t got the answer on that, but the figure of $600, 00 was used as an indication, or was used to show how much the fund is earning and hasn •t been used. MR. SMERCHANSKI: So that in reality the amount shown on the estimates of $950, 000 has no bearing whatsoever to the $600, 000 that will be coming from the War and Post-War Services, and then if the $3 million capital is required out of this War and Post-War Fund it would have to be stretched over five years more or less. MR.

STEINKOPF: It's a bookkeeping entry, I think. I don't know how many years they would stretch it out but they may do it that way. MR. HRYHORC ZUK: Mr. Chairman , I am only intrigued by one of the answers given by the Minister and that is that $600, 000 that is supposed to come from the earnings of the Post-War Emergency Fund -- I think that•s what it 's called.

We show I believe in our revenue statement, we show those $600, 000 as revenue, and I think for the sake of good bookkeeping, if we do show them as revenue in our details of estim ated revenue for the year then they should, if they are going to be spent, they should be shown in the expenditure side of our busi ness too, I would think so. If they are not shown as earnings in the revenue side then of course the argument doesn't hold. MR. ROBLIN: It is shown as earnings in the fund, not on the revenue side. MR. PAULLEY: Mr.

Chairman, the Leader of the Opposition mentioned a few mom ents ago about additional properties that are going to be purchased, or have been purchased I be lieve by the province, for the purpose of the further development of the general area. If this is so, I understand that it includes the area where the present police station is located and comes back to Jam es Street where the Labor Temple is . Is this correct? MR. STEINKOPF: Yes . The Labor Temple on Jam es Street. MR. PAULLEY: And then the police station on Rupert Street. Now we have always been very interested, Mr.

Chairm an, in historical events in this province of ours and I wonder, be fore these two buildings, the police station and the Labor Temple are given the axe, figurative ly speaking, whether some consideration might be given to making sure that there are in the archives of Manitoba pictures ·or models of these two buildings , because I'm sure that many people in the Province of Manitoba can look back with great significance on these two buildings . I am referring, Mr.

Chairman, to back to 1919 when I was just a youngster of 10 and the Winnipeg general strike at that particular time -- and I've always been interested in the history of the labour movement in Winnipeg and Western Canada and have read on a few occas ions of it being alleged that the close proximity of the police station with that of the Labor Templeworked somewhat a hardship on those conne.cted with the labour movement at the par ticular time because the Labor Temple of course was the headquarters of the strike movem ent in 1919, and it is alleged that the going and coming of the labour personnel was under very close scrutiny of the Em ergency Measures Organization of that particular day.

And of course from the Labour Temple and out of it there grew to a large degree the labour movem ent that •

March 11th, 1965 537 (MR. PAULLEY cont'd) . . . . . we have today, and it is really steeped in history of Manitoba as well .

I don't know whether it's just the idea that it, like so many other monuments whose walls could talk, that it •ll just be torn asunder or whether or not that before the work is proceeded with the demolition of the building that the Minister in charge of the property there might con sider some of the departments, poss ibly of the Attorney-General, the Archives, or the likes of that, making sure that for posterity there is preserved adequate coverage and pictures of this particular location because I think, Mr.

Chairman, that it has had a very significant past and made a tremendous contribution to the Province of Manitoba. MR. STEINKOPF: The honourable member will be pleased to know that we have taken pi ctures of every one of the buildings in detail in the area in question. I think it's a good idea if we take these special ones out and turn it over to the department to see if they can •t figure out some way that we can keep them forever in some historical sense. MR.

MOLGAT: While we're on the historical aspect of things, before we go on back to the figures that I want to get, I presume from the design that we saw that it is definitely the intention to incorporate in the over-all plans the present monument which is now at the corner of the Disraeli Freeway, the monument of the 1885 or Northwest Rebellion. There are a number of members of the House who have a very special interest in this monument, two of them sit ting on the front benches across the way, the Minister of Industry and Commerce and the Min ister of Municipal Affairs.

The Minister of Municipal Mfairs in particular has an illustrious career with that fine regiment, the Royal Winnipeg Rifles; his father as well served and was decorated with the regiment. I have myself an interest in the regiment so three of us at least have a personal interest in the monument. Now is it definite that it will be retained as part of the Centre? MR. STEINKOPF: Yes, very definite. Not very far -- just a few feet from where it is now to fit in the location. MR. CHAIRMAN: Item 11 (a) .... MR. MOLGAT: Mr . Chairman, no, we still have some matters here I would like to clear up .

The indications are that at the moment we will be proceeding to purchase one further block of property. Now this is the property, I take it, we were just referring to including the pres ent city police station, the Labour Temple, the property along Main Street which I think in cludes the Beacon Theatre. This is the block that we 're purchasing, is that correct? MR. STEINKOPF: This block has been purchased - - the deals haven •t been completed, but they are in the process -- together with the block east of that on which the garages are lo cated.

The need for that is for the future expansion of the museum and looking to the future. This does not include the property purchased for the Jus tice Building. MR. MOLGAT: This figure then -- last year we were dealing with one block of property at $590, 000; the news report that I have deals with the second block at $754, 000; there is a third block? What are the estimates on it? MR. STEINKOPF: I just haven't got it broken down into that, but the total land cost is estimated to be in the neighbourhood of $2, 200, 000 depending on adjustments at the end. MR. MOLGAT: Has the third block been expropriated now? MR.

STEINKOPF: All the land that will be required has now been expropriated. MR. MOLGAT: Is it anticipated there will be further land requirements in the area, for example the Playhouse Theatre on the south side, or any other lands in that vicinity which will be required at a later date ? MR. STEINKOPF: No, not for the Arts Centre at any tim e, the Playhouse, but we hope that the City of Winnipeg will work with the board that will run it and clear it up. MR. MOLGAT: Could the Minister indicate to the committee when it was first decided to proceed with the Arts Centre in that vicinity? MR.

STEINKOPF: The Arts Centre as we now know it, with the mus eum , the planetarium and concert hall? MR. MOLGAT: Whatever the plans were. MR. STEINKOPF: I wouldn't like to figure on a date . It's one of, I think, the 34 ques tions that you asked last summer. MR.

MOLGAT: It was 36 questions, but in any case there was a report in the Winnipeg Tribune on May 21s t, 19 64, that the Minister was speaking and the statement was, and this is in quote marks, "that this Main Street site was chosen after much consideration by realtors and other firms in the city and has the unanimous approval as well as the backing of the Roblin

538 March 11th, 1965 (MR. MOLGAT cont'd) ... . government. Anticipating such a project as far back as 1959, the I_ government picked the site because land was then available and more would be free as urban renewal projects and a new police station were built. " Now this would indicate that the govern- ment planned to do this in 1959. This doesn't correlate with the other information which I have obtained from the government. Which is the correct statement? MR.

STEINKOPF: That reference to 19 59 is the Adamson report that was being pre pared for urban renewal, not so much the Arts Centre as the whole idea of urban renewal in the south Point Douglas area and that area. MR. MOLGAT: But, Mr. Chairman, in this statement by the Minister he was referring to the Arts Centre. He was referring to the Centennial Culture Centre and he says, " antici- I pating such a project as far back as 19 59 11• Well is that correct? MR. STEINKOPF: No, I don't think it's correct in that sense.

I think that it's mi staken there, that what they me ant to say was that it was urban renewal of 1959. MR . MOLGAT: But it 's not a question of what they meant to say, Mr. Chairm an. This is the Minister speaking, this is in quotes. -- ( Interjection) -- So the 159 is not correct then. Could the First Minister indicate -- he indicated a few moments ago that this was not the date. Could he indicate to the committee when this decision was taken? MR. ROBLIN: I think that the answer was given in the replies that were given to the � 36 questions. I'd have to refresh my memory by looking at that. MR. MOLGAT: Mr.

Chairman, could the Minister indicate to the Committee what com mitments we now have to the Art Gallery? They have chosen not to locate on the present site. What commitments have the government made to them insofar as either funds or other facilities or assistance of any kind. MR. STEINKOPF: A commitment that if, as and when they build a new Arts Centre that they would receive the same proportion of funds that they would have received had they gone into the cultural centre. MR. MOLGAT: This includes the purchase of land as well ? MR. STEINKOPF: Well they can use the funds any way they want.

This is the total com plex of the Arts Centre, the total cost what their share would have been and they'd get the same provincial government share if they go ahead on their own. MR. MOLGAT: Has the government conducted any discussio ns with the City of Winni peg with regard to the present auditorium and its future use either as a conversion to other uses or continuation in its present form ? MR. STEINKOPF: Not that I'm aware of. MR.

MOLGAT: Is it the intention to discuss this matter with the City of Winnipeg, be- cause I would gather that with the development of the cultural centre that some of the facilities presently in the auditorium will no longer be used . The mus eum

section for example will ob viously be moved and presum ably the new concert hall would me an that the very large concert hall at the auditorium would not be used for these specific purposes any longer. Would it not be wise then to correlate the use of these various buildings ?

After all they are here, and in the final analysis, whether it 's the City of Winnipeg who pays or the province who pays, it's really the citizens of the province who end up by paying, so whatever joint use we can make or what ever planning we can proceed with together, surely it would be to the general advantage of the public of Manitoba. Does the government intend to do anything about this ? MR.

STEINKOPF: I believe the city have set up a committee to discuss the future use of the pres ent auditorium and I agree completely that it would be foolhardy if they didn't work together with the people who will have the res ponsibility of running the new centennial complex, and I •m sure that this will be done as soon as the centennial centre -- the dates and the things are more definitive, MR . CHAIRMAN: .. .. (a) -- Passed; 11 (b) -- passed . Resolution No. 26 -- passed . Department of Education. Resolution No. 27 -- 1 (a). MR. MOLGAT: Mr.

Chairman, before the Minister starts, I think possi bly he should appeal to the First Minister to suggest that it be called 11 o'clock then he could start fresh tomorrow with his staff on hand. I think it wouldbe a wise move . HON . GE ORGE JOHNSON (Minister of Education) (Gimli ): Yes, Mr . Chairman, I'd just love to make that statement tomorrow afternoon. MR. ROBLIN: As everyone is in such an amiable mood tonight and we're making reason able progress , I would be glad to accede to the suggestion of my honourable friend the Leader of the Opposition and move the committee rise . I

March 11 th, 1965 539 MR. CHAIRMAN: Committee rise and report. Call in the Speaker. Madam Speaker, the Commi ttee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions and requests leave to sit again. MR. CO W AN: Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Pem bina, that the report of the committee be received. MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion car- ried. MR . RO BLIN: Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Provincial Secretary, that the House do now adjourn. MADAM SPE AKER pres ented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion car ried and the House adjourned until 2: 30 Friday afternoon.

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	27-4-22
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	27th 4th hansardpdf 22.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	41bd35025e5445933c9ec2d356bfb9546989a739

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