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April 8, 2014

40th Parliament, 2nd Session

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Hansard Transcripts

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

Hansard Transcripts 2014-Apr-08 (PDF)

L125 - Tue 8 Apr 2014 / Mar 8 avr 2014

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ONTARIO

ASSEMBLÉE LÉGISLATIVE DE L’ONTARIO

Tuesday 8 April 2014 Mardi 8 avril 2014

ORDERS OF THE DAY

INVASIVE SPECIES ACT, 2014 /

LOI DE 2014 SUR LES ESPÈCES

ENVAHISSANTES

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

ORAL QUESTIONS

SKILLED TRADES

SKILLED TRADES

POWER PLANTS

POWER PLANTS

SKILLED TRADES

POWER PLANTS

SKILLED TRADES

POWER PLANTS

PAN AM GAMES

CONSIDERATION OF BILL 21

POWER PLANTS

ONTARIO NORTHLAND TRANSPORTATION COMMISSION

CONSUMER PROTECTION

POWER PLANTS

HOSPITAL FUNDING

HYDRO RATES

VISITOR

DEFERRED VOTES

SCHOOL BOARDS COLLECTIVE BARGAINING ACT, 2014 /

LOI DE 2014 SUR LA NÉGOCIATION COLLECTIVE DANS LES CONSEILS SCOLAIRES

MEMBERS’ STATEMENTS

TWEED TRIBUTE TO ELVIS FESTIVAL

FORT ERIE RACE TRACK

KLEINBURG EVENTMAKERS

HOME HARDWARE STORES LTD.

HYDRO RATES

FINANCIAL LITERACY

HOSPICE FUNDING

NATALIE SPOONER

WINTER HIGHWAY MAINTENANCE

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY

AND RESPONSES

EQUAL PAY DAY

PETITIONS

PHYSIOTHERAPY SERVICES

TAXATION

TIRE DISPOSAL

LONG-TERM CARE

TAXATION

GASOLINE PRICES

ONTARIO COLLEGE OF TRADES

DOG OWNERSHIP

HYDRO RATES

DIAGNOSTIC SERVICES

MINIMUM WAGE

PENSION PLAN

FIREFIGHTERS

ORDERS OF THE DAY

FIGHTING FRAUD AND REDUCING

AUTOMOBILE INSURANCE

RATES ACT, 2014 /

LOI DE 2014 DE LUTTE CONTRE

LA FRAUDE ET DE RÉDUCTION

DES TAUX D’ASSURANCE-AUTOMOBILE

ADJOURNMENT DEBATE

HYDRO RATES

The House met at 0900.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Good morning. Please join me in prayer.

Prayers.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

INVASIVE SPECIES ACT, 2014 /

LOI DE 2014 SUR LES ESPÈCES

ENVAHISSANTES

Mr. Orazietti moved second reading of the following bill:

Bill 167,

An Act respecting Invasive Species / Projet de loi 167, Loi concernant les espèces envahissantes.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The Minister of Natural Resources.

Hon. David Orazietti: I’m pleased to rise in the House today to move second reading of Bill 167, the Invasive Species Act. Speaker, I’m going to take a few minutes to outline the benefits of this legislation, the importance of this legislation and why we need to move expeditiously on this.

Ontario’s natural resources provide a significant source of jobs and economic benefits for our province. They are one of the foundations of our prosperity and they are fundamental to our quality of life. That is why we must take stronger action to address threats to our environment and to our economy. Our government must show leadership on this issue, and with this legislation that is exactly what we’re doing. The proposed act builds on concerted and coordinated action we have been taking on invasive species.

In 2012, our ministry worked with the Ministries of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs, Environment and Transportation to develop the Ontario Invasive Species Strategic Plan. One of the actions in that plan was to identify legislative and policy obstacles to effective prevention, rapid response and management. Last summer, my ministry issued a discussion paper that identified gaps in different pieces of legislation that address invasive species.

Those gaps are not surprising, considering that Ontario currently uses a patchwork of more than 20 different pieces of legislation—provincial and federal acts—to respond to the threat of invasive species. Those gaps are not surprising, and that is why we need to move forward with this legislation.

If passed, the Invasive Species Act would be the first stand-alone legislation of its kind in Canada. But we would not be acting alone, Speaker, it’s important to note. Managing invasive species has always been a shared responsibility—across all levels of government as well as with industry, environmental groups and the public. Ontario would continue to collaborate with all those involved in invasive species management, including municipalities, key stakeholders from across the province, and the federal government, which has an important national role in invasive species management.

Traditionally, it has been the federal government’s job to prevent invasives from entering Canada, and once established, it’s been the provincial government’s responsibility to eradicate or detect these species. We need to do more in a coordinated way. The Invasive Species Act would, if passed, complement the role of the federal government in managing invasive species. It would promote shared accountability for managing invasive species by enabling the expansion of strategic partnerships.

Our government has built many enduring partnerships in this area. For example, Ontario is a member of the Asian Carp Regional Coordinating Committee, where we work with the Great Lakes states and the US and Canadian governments to prevent aquatic invasives such as Asian carp from entering the Great Lakes. We’ve been working with the Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters for more than two decades to deliver the Invading Species Awareness Program. More recently, we supported the creation of the Invasive Species Centre, in my riding of Sault Ste.

Marie, to collaborate on research, strategic planning, communications and outreach, response actions, mitigation plans and rehabilitation activities. To date, Ontario has invested nearly $9 million toward the establishment of this centre in partnership with the federal government.

Bill 167 would support actions that are stronger, more focused and more effective. We need to act so that the future generations of this province will continue to benefit from Ontario’s rich natural legacy.

Ontario’s unique geography and diverse trade links put us at greater risk than many other provinces. More invasive species have become established in Ontario than in any other Canadian jurisdiction. The reality is that we are a strong trading province, globally connected to the economy. Our Great Lakes are a vast and shared resource, connected by rivers and streams to broad portions of North America.

Speaker, when it comes to invasive species, the risks are not diminishing. Climate change, as well as industrial and urban developments, are stressing ecosystems, making them more susceptible to threats from invasive species.

So here’s how the legislation will assist us: The bill before the Legislature would provide the province with the tools to step up the effort to prevent, control, monitor and eradicate invasive species. This landmark legislation would, if passed, help by providing the powers to intervene early so invasive species do not become established. This legislation would give Ontario the tools to ban activities such as possessing and transporting certain invasive species. It would also allow the government to enable rapid response actions to stop an invasive species from spreading.

The legislation would, when needed, help ensure compliance through modernized inspection and enforcement measures. The proposed legislation uses a risk-based approach that considers a full range of threats, costs and benefits to the environment, society and the economy.

A broad range of stakeholders have expressed strong support for further action to address invasive species. These stakeholders, from municipalities and conservation groups to industry, recognize the need for stronger action to manage this threat to Ontario’s economy and natural environment.

The Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters is the largest conservation organization in the province. They represent outdoor recreation enthusiasts who would be dramatically impacted by invasive species. The federation’s executive director, Angelo Lombardo, has said this: “This is a positive step in the fight against invasive species that will compliment actions already taken by the federal government.” This is a serious threat to Ontario. “The legislation being introduced by the province will provide the minister with the tools to immediately react when a new species is identified, or when a threat is identified.”

Conservation Ontario represents a network of 36 conservation authorities which are dedicated to conserving, restoring and managing Ontario’s natural resources. Kim Gavine, general manager of Conservation Ontario called the proposed Invasive Species Act “an important step in improving Ontario’s response to invasive species.” She believes that the risk-based approach we have taken “is a sound and useful approach that allows for prioritization of actions to maximize the use of limited resources.”

The head of biodiversity for the Royal Ontario Museum has also weighed in. Dave Ireland, managing director, says the proposed Invasive Species Act “is unprecedented in Canada, and is a bold step by the province.”

Invasive species are a very real threat. I know that my colleagues in the House from across the province have become familiar with problems of invasive species in their own ridings and in their own communities. Zebra mussels are a menace to the municipal water systems in this province, clogging intake pipes and costing the province between $75 million and $91 million each year to manage. Phragmites, the European common reed, is damaging beaches. Insects, such as the Asian long-horned beetle, threaten the health of our forests.

And then there is the threat of species not yet established in Ontario. Northern Ontario, where the $11.9-billion forestry industry supports over 55,000 jobs, faces the risk of invasive pests such as the mountain pine beetle. This beetle has killed about half the total volume of commercial lodgepole pine in British Columbia and has moved east to Alberta, where it is also affecting jack pine. It’s now within 50 kilometres of the Saskatchewan border and continues to move further east. In fact, in the province of British Columbia, the government has spent $917 million fighting one particular invasive species that’s a serious threat to their economy.

Asian carp also pose a serious threat. These invasive fish have overwhelmed some rivers in the United States, where they now make up more than 95% of the fish by weight in some areas. Fishing contributes about $2.2 billion to Ontario’s economy and attracts tourists from around the world. Asian carp could devastate our commercial fishing industry. It could cost tourism jobs related to the recreational fishing industry in this province. Asian carp are dangerously close to Ontario’s borders already; at least, they’ve been found in one American tributary of Lake Erie.

Invasive species are a quality-of-life issue. Fishing and hunting are fundamental to the traditions of First Nations. For many young people across the province, catching their first fish or taking a swim in a lake or hiking in the outdoors is part of a healthy, active Ontario childhood. Ontarians from all walks of life value our natural environment whether they are camping in a provincial park or taking a walk in their local park.

It’s important to understand that invasive species impact all Ontarians, wherever they live. They are a threat to the beauty of our natural areas and to all of our communities, including urban centres. Let me provide a couple of examples. The Asian long-horned beetle attacks hardwood trees including all species of our iconic Canadian maple tree. The emerald ash borer, if not effectively controlled, is expected to spread across the entire range of ash causing widespread tree mortality. In fact, in the city of Toronto, they’ve spent $37 million removing and replacing ash trees.

This is particularly concerning when you consider that the green ash is one of the most commonly planted species in our urban forests.

Invasive species that impact the natural environment can also pose public safety issues. The water chestnut is an aquatic invasive plant that floats on the surface of the water. It forms dense clusters with sharp barbs. It threatens native species and makes swimming and boating very difficult. The giant hogweed is an invasive plant that has become established in parts of Ontario. Its sap can burn your skin, causing blistering and scarring.

Invasive species are a threat to our biodiversity and are the second leading cause of species becoming at risk. Once invasive species are introduced into the wild with no natural predators, they can spread quickly. Invasive species often out-compete domestic species for food. They can destroy native species’ habitats and, according to a 2010 report on the state of Ontario’s biodiversity, invasive species are the second-greatest threat to species at risk in Ontario. They are a leading cause of extinction of species globally.

Here are a couple more examples: Invasive phragmites release toxins from their roots into the soil and hinder the growth of, and kill, surrounding plants. They crowd out native vegetation, thus resulting in decreased plant biodiversity. These tall, densely growing weeds can reach up to five metres in height, degrade the habitat and decrease food supplies for native wildlife, including several species at risk.

To provide another example, the invasive dog-strangling vine impacts the reproduction of the monarch butterfly, which is a species at risk. The butterflies lay their eggs on the plant but the larvae are unable to complete their life cycle and can’t survive.

Here’s how the legislation would work and why it’s important that we move forward with this: The proposed legislation would accelerate the actions we can take in combating invasive species. We know that to manage invasive species effectively, we must find them early and respond quickly. That is also the most cost-effective approach. Finding new invasive species before they spread widely or become established allows us to try to eliminate populations as soon as possible. If it’s not possible to eliminate the invaders, early response could also help to control species and reduce costs.

Let me provide a few details of how the proposed legislation would work to combat invasive species. It would allow the government to make regulations to list invasive species and carriers of invasive species that pose a threat. Listed invasive species would be categorized as being either a moderate threat or a significant threat to the natural environment in Ontario. Importing, releasing, possessing, transporting and other actions involving an invasive species could then be banned.

Here are a couple more examples. If a supply of wood were found to be infested with an invasive beetle, we could prevent it from being moved from one part of the province to another to minimize the impact and, obviously, reduce costs. Or Ontario could allow only Asian carp that were already eviscerated into the province.

Of course, the proposed act also recognizes that there may be legitimate reasons for possessing an invasive species, such as for the purposes of research and education. The act would obviously create these exemptions.

With respect to the regulations, Speaker, I want to be clear that no invasive species are listed in Bill 167. The proposed act would enable the Lieutenant Governor in Council to make regulations to list invasive species and carriers of invasive species that would be subject to the act.

If the act is passed, extensive public consultation would occur before any species would be listed in the regulations. Consultation would include posting proposed regulatory conditions and associated information on the Environmental and Regulatory Registries for the public and stakeholders to review and comment on. Any proposed regulations or rules regarding any invasive species would be based on risk assessments that consider environmental, social and economic impacts. Stakeholders, including industry, would have an opportunity to review and comment on any proposed regulations or rules before they were created or enforced.

Speaker, early detection of invasive species is also key to managing them effectively. The proposed act, if passed, would strengthen inspection activity to protect Ontario from invasive species. Here is a little more information on that: We know that enforcement measures strengthen protection. In 2005, Ontario put rules in place banning the transport and possession of several live invasive fish species, including the four species of Asian carp. Since then, enforcement officers have seized more than 40,000 pounds of Asian carp that were destined for Ontario markets.

Bill 167 includes provisions for allowing strong penalties and enforcement powers to investigate violations. If a high-risk species such as Asian carp were found in Ontario, the proposed legislation would enable rapid response actions such as working with partners on control and eradication efforts. The provisions would also ensure that those responsible are accountable for the costs of control and eradication through strong penalties and cost recovery mechanisms which are important features of this legislation.

Penalties are essential to ensuring effective implementation of any act. In the proposed Invasive Species Act, there would be maximum fines possible of up to $250,000 for individuals plus imprisonment for up to one year. Maximum fines for corporations could be as high as $1 million. These penalties are aimed at providing adequate deterrence to potential violators. The fines may multiply in the case of multiple specimens or species, and they may be increased by the amount of monetary benefit resulting from the offence.

In addition to these penalties, upon conviction, a court may also make additional orders as it saw fit. These can include orders to remedy the harm to the natural environment that resulted from the offence.

I’d like to share the comments of a couple of stakeholders with regard to this legislation. The first is from Dilhari Fernando, who is the executive director of the Invasive Species Centre. She said, “Ontario is showing tremendous leadership with this new legislation, and is the only jurisdiction in Canada to propose such a comprehensive package of

tools to proactively address invasive species. Invasive species threaten Ontario’s environment by altering natural spaces and endangering the species that are native to our regions. Imagine an Ontario where fall colours are a thing of the past or where we can no longer take our families canoeing or fishing in our lakes and rivers. This could be our reality if we don’t act to address the threats posed by invasive species.”

The second comment is from Owen Williams, president of the Ontario Invasive Plant Council. He calls our proposed tools in the Invasive Species Act “essential for responding to the growing threat of invasives.”

We appreciate the support of partners such as the Invasive Species Centre and the Ontario Invasive Plant Council. As I said earlier, managing invasive species is a shared responsibility—shared with other governments, industry, environmental groups and of course the public. In fact, everyone can play a role in protecting Ontario’s biodiversity by planting non-invasive species in gardens, by never releasing bait or any wildlife into nature, by cleaning their boats before removing them and placing them in other water bodies, and by not transporting firewood.

They’re simple things that perhaps we overlook, but they’re important in helping to reduce the impact of invasive species—and spread, of course. We need to engage all Ontarians to do their part to protect species and habitat, and we need to take a leadership role with this proposed legislation.

In closing, Speaker, I’d like to be clear: Invasive species impact the lives of every Ontarian. You don’t have to be an angler or a forester to appreciate our rich natural resources in this province. Invasive species have the potential to impact the quality of life of our drinking water and damage our beaches. They could decimate the urban tree canopy and have the capacity to devastate our forestry industry.

The challenge of addressing invasive species will require all the tools that we can provide. There have been successes in limiting the damage to and promoting the health of native species populations, but we have a responsibility to do more. We can provide stronger legislative frameworks to support the prevention, early detection, rapid response and eradication of invasive species in the province. That is what the proposed Invasive Species Act would do.

I’m confident all members will agree that the problem of invasive species warrants strong action and detection and dedicated legislation, and I encourage them to support this legislation.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Julia Munro): Comments and questions?

Ms. Laurie Scott: I’m pleased to respond to the minister’s introduction of Bill 167, the Invasive Species Act, 2014. Certainly, we’re happy to see legislation brought forward on invasive species. We’ve all heard it from our respective ridings. Probably what has been in the news most is the Asian carp and its invasion, so we’re pleased to see the government begin to take action on dealing with this, specifically with the Asian carp. The minister mentioned in his comments that the fishing industry is a $2.2-billion industry to Ontario’s economy. The Asian carp could very well devastate that. We’ve already found it in tributaries coming into one of our borders. So we’ve heard of these issues.

I want to comment on the member from Haldimand–Norfolk, who’s going to speak next, but also our MNR critic, the member from Oshawa. They have both testified in the US about the impact of invasive species on threatening our livelihoods, our quality of life, as the minister said, and our environment. So bringing in legislation to deal with invasive species—and I know I mentioned mostly Asian carp, but some of the other invasive species were mentioned by the minister: zebra mussels, emerald ash borer, round gobies, and I know he mentioned a lot of plant species. It depends where you live, what species is affecting the area that you represent.

But early detection, eradication—I’m pleased to see there’s going to be some teeth in this, with some enforcement, some fines, some possible jail time. It’s an incredibly serious issue for us in Ontario, and I’m pleased that the Liberal government has actually brought a piece of legislation in that we will be supporting. We can’t wait till it actually gets to committee, because I think there are many more stakeholders who do want to comment on that. Thank you, Madam Speaker, for my time.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Julia Munro): The member for Welland.

Ms. Cindy Forster: I’d like to thank the minister for bringing forward this important government bill, Bill 167, the Invasive Species Act. But again, it’s one of those feel-good bills, because the bill doesn’t address hiring any any new enforcement officers or putting any money in the budget to actually do enforcement. I spoke to this issue yesterday under the family leave bill. It’s fine and dandy to bring in new bills, but if you don’t actually put the dollars in place to ensure that there’s enforcement, what good is it?

The bill says that inspectors may conduct inspection activities to determine compliance. They may issue stop orders if they believe an offence is about to be undertaken. They may issue orders for up to 15 days for a particular species, and I understand there are at least around 200 or more endangered species in the province. Conservation officers, under fish and wildlife, are inspectors, but the ministry can appoint foresters and biologists.

But the bill doesn’t speak to how many we are actually going to appoint. Are we going to be hiring any additional people? How much money is the government going to put to this bill to ensure that it gets implemented and that it’s going to make a difference for the endangered species and for wildlife in this province?

We, the New Democratic Party, and our leader, Andrea Horwath, look forward to getting this bill into committee so that we can put forward amendments that will certainly strengthen this bill and, hopefully, make it a good piece of legislation.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Julia Munro): Minister for Northern Development and Mines.

Hon. Michael Gravelle: This is really a piece of legislation that—I’m encouraged, actually, to hear the comments from the members of the opposition so far that indeed they are in support of this legislation. It’s almost impossible to explain just how important this is. I think we should all applaud the Minister of Natural Resources for bringing this forward and for recognizing the kinds of measures we need to take legislatively to deal with the extraordinarily big challenge we have, related to invasive species.

Again, it’s not just the province of Ontario. It’s wonderful that we will be the only jurisdiction in Canada that has stand-alone invasive species legislation, but there’s no doubt—the minister referenced it—that this is not just a provincial matter. It’s a national matter, it’s an international matter.

When one speaks about the economic impact of Asian carp entering into the water streams in Ontario and the Great Lakes, it’s quite frankly unimaginable. The work that is being done in that regard involves international jurisdictions and the US as well.

I have the experience of having spent some time as Minister of Natural Resources as well, and I know how committed the ministry staff are to making sure we do the right thing. I applaud the minister.

I also want to do a bit of a shout-out to organizations all across the province. I think of Trees Thunder Bay. I think of the work that they’re doing. I happen to be related to the Thunder Bay city forester, who, when I was minister, taught me a great deal about the emerald ash borer and how important it is to keep it away from or out of the parts of the province it has not yet gotten to, because the impact is profound.

Congratulations to the minister. A strong legislative framework is necessary to enable the prevention and the early detection—and the education of the public—in terms of how we deal with invasive species.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Julia Munro): The member for Renfrew–Nipissing–Pembroke.

Mr. John Yakabuski: I’m pleased to see the government introduce this kind of legislation. The world has changed; it has gotten a lot smaller. Invasive species that are not natural to our environment, to our part of the world, find their way here in many, many ways that were not possible years ago. I am glad that they’re doing something about it.

We have got to ensure that for non-natural species like the Asian long-horned beetle, the emerald ash borer, the Asian carp, and zebra mussels, which we have been dealing with for years—we have to make sure that our response to these invasive species is swift and meaningful. Half-measures will not do. These species do not have natural predators or natural enemies here. They have them where they came from, but they don’t have them here. We have to ensure that our response to these invasive species is something that is massively done. We have to eradicate them before they do further damage to us.

Our fishing industry is under a great threat from some of these invasive species. If the Asian carp gets into our Great Lakes system, we’re in big trouble. That’s a $2-billion industry. We cannot allow these species to take over this part of the world. We have to make sure that we have the measures in place, we have the tools in place—and I appreciate what the minister is doing—that we can take really strong action. This is not something we can be timid about. We can’t namby-pamby around this and talk about, “Oh, we might do some damage to a lovely little fish or something.” No.

These species do not belong here, they are not natural to our environment and we have to take the strongest measures possible to protect the species that are part of the ecosystem here. Otherwise we’re in big trouble. I’m not mincing words here: We need to act fast and we need to act in the strongest way possible as soon as possible.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Julia Munro): The minister has two minutes to respond.

Hon. David Orazietti: I appreciate the Minister of Northern Development and Mines, the member from Renfrew–Nipissing–Pembroke, the member from Welland, as well as the member from Haliburton–Kawartha Lakes–Brock, sharing their comments on this issue, which I think we can all agree is clearly a non-partisan issue. This is an issue about protecting our natural resources and protecting our environment. We know that these species that are invading Ontario pose very real threats to both our economy and our quality of life.

We’ve seen what’s happened in British Columbia with the mountain pine beetle and the incredible devastation to the forestry industry, with nearly a billion dollars spent on attempting to eradicate one species.

But we are spending money in Ontario today to combat these various species. I mentioned the emerald ash borer in the city of Toronto, $37 million; up to $95 million on zebra mussels. The federal government spends $29 million on the sea lamprey. The list is beginning to lengthen and cost additional resources.

It is so important that we break down the silos and ensure that both internationally and in Canada, at all levels of government, we are working effectively to develop the best strategies. Early detection is key to reducing costs. Our government invested in the Invasive Species Centre because of the concentration of scientific knowledge in our community, in partnership with the federal government, to do exactly that.

I certainly recognize the concerns of the members opposite as well, and many of them have been very supportive in their comments. The member from Haldimand–Norfolk is going to speak on this issue; he did at first reading and expressed his support for this. The member from Timiskaming–Cochrane, from the NDP, did express his support as well.

I’m optimistic that this legislation will move expeditiously through the House so that we can put this in place as soon as possible.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Julia Munro): Further debate?

Mr. Jerry J. Ouellette: I very much appreciate the opportunity to speak about Bill 167, the Invasive Species Act, 2014. Let me start off by saying that as it stands at this particular time, I don’t believe that our party will be opposing but will be supporting the legislation. We haven’t received all the input from all the stakeholders that are out there, but any of the stakeholders that we have been in touch with are certainly supportive, and as such, so will this party be at this particular time.

There are many aspects of this bill that need to be brought forward and discussed that haven’t been brought forward. I’ll take it on a line-by-line basis. The minister just briefly mentioned some of the aspects that we’re talking about. The cost for zebra mussels: He mentioned the $95-million fee on the zebra mussels alone, but I don’t necessarily know if the minister has checked with groups like Ontario Hydro, for example, which have probably spent in excess of $95 million alone on zebra mussels to clear the intake and the outflow water pipes on an annual basis from our nuclear plants.

When I brought in a bill in 1999 to deal with ballast water discharge, to specifically deal with species that were coming in, there was about a 29%, if I recall—a study showed that in 1991, 29% of the releases of invasive species coming into Ontario were through ballast water discharge. We tried to deal with that particular topic because, as I recall, there was one—I think it was the comb jellyfish—that came in from the Black Sea and it was tracked down to one specific ship that had come into a port in the States.

Once it released its discharge of ballast water, it had introduced the new jellyfish, and there had been a substantial die-off of the recreational fishery in that particular state. I think it was Michigan where it finally got in and started to infiltrate into the Great Lakes at that time.

Some of these things that need to be addressed and some of the areas that we need to talk about are how the government can move forward on addressing this bill.

If you go across Canada, you’ll see there are many species that have come in, like Dutch elm disease. If you go into western Canada—I was in Saskatchewan last summer, and at that time you would see all these bags—yes, the Clerk would remember—around all the elm trees. It was to try and stop Dutch elm disease from killing off all the elm trees in Regina. They have a huge program out there.

Some of the other aspects are the impacts of things such as the pine beetle in western Canada, whether it’s in BC or in Alberta. We need to talk about some of the impacts there, because it’s had a substantial impact on the Ontario economy alone. People don’t realize that now, all of a sudden, we have this huge die-off. In BC and Alberta, the pine beetle came in and killed all the trees, or the forestry sector got permission to cut down all these trees before they got wasted away. They were standing, rotting trees, so there was an additional cut that was allowed out there.

What that did was it increased the amount of dimensional wood that was produced in BC and Alberta that’s now shipped all over North America, and Asia and other markets as well, that we are competing with on a regular basis. But because the tree is going to go to waste if it’s standing and slowly rotting, they reduced the cost for it, or they reduced the amount of stumpage fees or the amount—and the sheer numbers of the volumes of the cut that’s allowed—the minister would know the allowable cut in the province of Ontario.

The millions of cubic metres have substantially increased, and not only that, but some of these trees that are cut dimensionally are now brought into Ontario at a reduced rate, competing with the Ontario tree and forestry sector.

So if you look out there—and this is what the forestry sector is telling me. In some sectors, some of these trees have made it back in and are now competing with Ontario wood, because it’s a reduced-rate wood that’s processed in BC and Alberta. So we have to look on a Canada-wide basis at what’s going to take place.

In some of the previous research that I had done, groups like the Federation of Ontario Naturalists had identified three specific types of invaders. There were natural invaders, accidental invaders and intentional invaders. Some of the natural invaders were some of the opossum or the white-tailed deer that slowly migrated north into Ontario and started to become resident. I can recall back in the early 1980s, maybe late 1970s, being in a place called Foleyet, which is basically halfway between Sudbury and Timmins; that would be best for the average Ontarian to understand where it is.

At that time, when I first started going there, there were never any raccoons in the area. Now you’ll regularly find raccoons because they’ve slowly migrated there; the same with the coyote and a number of other animals that have been listed as what would be classified as a natural invader.

Then we have what the FON—Federation of Ontario Naturalists—at that time listed as accidental invaders, such as what happened in 1959, when the St. Lawrence Seaway was opened up. It allowed the sea lamprey to come into the Great Lakes. The difficulty there, and everybody knows what’s taken place and the huge amount of costs that take place—I think it is $29 million, if I remember my figures correctly, that the federal government and the other jurisdictions pay just to control the number of sea lampreys in the province of Ontario.

I can tell you, you know when lampricide is going through the streams because all of a sudden you see all the turkey vultures accumulate along the stream ways, feeding on those dead carcasses of the sea lamprey. It’s certainly something that’s necessary. It devastated a lot of the fishing industry, and I can recall—as a matter of fact, we don’t understand a lot of the impacts.

One of the individuals we inducted into the sports hall of fame was a swimmer from Oshawa who, at the youngest age, was swimming across Lake Ontario. Part of her discussion was about how, when she got out of the water, there were about half a dozen sea lampreys attached to her.

These are things that people don’t realize about these accidental incidents or invaders that have taken place and how they impact the economy, whether it’s recreational fishery and the devastation that’s done there, which is a huge industry in the province of Ontario, as well as other aspects, and we’ve already mentioned some of the ones with the pine beetle.

You talk about the emerald ash borer beetle and what has taken place there. The minister mentioned that and mentioned the amount of funds being spent in Toronto alone dealing with the emerald ash borer beetle. When you talk about that, you see how municipalities—and I know the Minister of Northern Development and Mines was speaking on the bill as well, and it was good to hear that. In his own community of Thunder Bay, a discussion had taken place by the developers about the canopy that they’re required to plant when they’re putting in new subdivisions.

This is all taken into consideration, and we have to understand how this great picture comes together. What happens now is, if you look at the amount of trees and the types of trees that developers are required to plant in their developments, they reflect the impact of such things as the emerald ash borer beetle.

In Oshawa, for example, we only have—I can’t remember the specifics; I believe it was less than 10% of the canopy is ash trees, which are now being hugely impacted by the emerald ash borer beetle. What’s taking place there now is the replacement of these trees and the spreading of the beetle. The beetle effectively goes in—bores in, just like it says—and what it does is, the larva eats its way around the tree. It does something called girdling. A bark works like a skin or a vein, and between the bark and the tree, you get the flow of the nutrients or the sap in the maple trees in the spring.

For those that don’t know, birch trees do the same thing and can be harvested, as they do in western Canada. But the girdling that’s done by the emerald ash borer beetle effectively kills the tree and stops the sap from flowing up. That’s how it works.

So there are two methods by which they can deal with this, and it’s very costly. Depending on the girth of the tree—the larger the tree the more applications are required—they will do a syringe injection of a fluid that kills off the beetle, which is very time-consuming and very costly. Each injection is about $100. Some trees will take two, three or four various injections in order to kill off the beetle. What they try to do with this particular borer beetle and the injection is, they try to have it so that, as the beetle is moving through the community, they protect those trees.

The injection lasts for about two years and stops the emerald ash borer beetle at that particular point, killing them off. It stops the migration of the tree bud.

As we constantly see now, they try to stop individuals from taking firewood through different parts of the province, or wood as a whole. But how are you going to stop the forest industry from dealing with what has gone on? It’s in the millions of cubic metres that is transported throughout Ontario, whether it’s hardwood in the veneer mills or the SPF, the spruce-pine-firs, in the slicer mills that they produce. It’s difficult to contain all those on a province-wide basis when you’re dealing with such huge industries.

We look at methods by which we control this. One is the injection of this fluid to stop the emerald ash borer beetle with that particular hardwood. Another one is a rather toxic one, according to the individuals I met with and discussed it, where they use basically a fertilizer type of material that is absorbed through the roots. But it’s so toxic to the other plants that it basically kills everything else in that area in order to try and stop the emerald ash borer beetle. So there’s a couple of ways that it’s done, but it’s very costly.

The municipalities are now putting out a huge amount of dollars—tax dollars, quite frankly—that the taxpayers have to pay in order to protect these trees. The same thing has happened in the past as is taking place in Regina and other parts of western Canada, Manitoba, with Dutch elm disease and them trying to stop Dutch elm disease and protect their elm trees. So we try and react in many of these cases.

It’s the same with purple loosestrife. I can remember taking the kids out and going into the Second Marsh in Oshawa, picking all the purple loosestrife and putting it into the bag, containing all the seeds and making sure it got disposed of. All that did was slow the process by which purple loosestrife was expanding in the province of Ontario. It was a great attempt and was a learning experience, but it’s very costly. We’re looking at these methods by which they come in. There’s a number of methods by which they come in.

My understanding was that purple loosestrife effectively came in from florists, who were providing a great purple flower in their arrangements which is now distributed throughout the province of Ontario. Lo and behold, we have purple loosestrife now entrenched in the province of Ontario, and it has a significant impact on a number of sectors.

But there are many ways that we get affected. The stats on that comb jellyfish: That was introduced by a single ship. In 1999, within six years, it had reduced the fish harvest by 90%. We don’t realize these things that come in, but it can be attributed—actually, at the time that I presented this bill, I had all-party support, which was great. But as we know, private members’ bills have a lack of tendency to move forward, so it’s great to see that the minister was able to bring this.

I was asked to present before the US Senate committee, and the shipping industry was not too happy, because the comb jellyfish could actually be attributed to one specific ship. What I tried to do was make them responsible for the cleanup. And I see that the penalties in here for it up to $1 million for the first incident, in order to cover the costs for cleanup—sort of the introduction.

There’s one

section of the bill that I hoped the minister would make note of where I had a little bit of concern in the way the legislation was brought forward. It should come to committee, and we want to make sure that is addressed in regard to the introduction. It was specifically stating that, under

section 8:

“Prohibitions, moderate threat invasive species,

“Introduction, deposit and release

“8.

(1) No person shall,

“(

a) Bring a member of a moderate threat invasive species into a provincial park or conservation reserve,” and then it breaks it down farther on. But I think it should add the words “knowingly or intentionally.”

Later on it goes into due diligence, as expressed in the legislation. But knowingly and intentionally bringing something is far different than somebody who has a bait bucket—whereby they bring a rusty crayfish, when they bought crayfish for bait, into an area, and now they’re held responsible for the introduction of that species. The same thing with the round goby and other things that obviously the COs check for, to make sure that bait buckets are not containing those sorts of things. But a lot of individuals, the first time out getting involved in the activities or sports, may not be familiar.

So knowingly or intentionally introducing something would be something that might assist in ensuring that the legislation is acted out with its intent.

There are many other things that I want to discuss about the bill. Under

section 4 in the explanatory note, it talks about “classified as either a significant threat or a moderate threat.” The determination—who decides which is which? It’s the breakdown of where it comes in—and is there a review body which determines at what level the threat is specifically included?

We very much appreciate the inspections and the warrant that is required to enter a place or dwelling. However, when you go into the legislation later on, there doesn’t appear to be a warrant required for entering properties that may contain some of the invasive species. We have some concerns about—sometimes there will be a CO, for example. If I remember correctly, the way it’s worded here, the CO is an inspector immediately, by position, and I would assume there would be training for that. But the CO can also designate an individual to come with them.

Some communities would be concerned that the designate might be an OPP officer who might be checking for other aspects and doesn’t have permission to enter properties. We constantly hear, in opposition, and when we had that privilege and honour to be in government, about how COs work with MTO and the OPP and were doing things like, under a CO’s non-requirement for a warrant, to check whether people were using coloured gas or not—diesel. We want to make sure that the real intent of this is specifically targeting invasive species, which we all support—to ensure it is not taking place in the province of Ontario.

There were a number of other areas. We’ve gone through the bill and made note by note. I’ve slowly walked through it, picking out some of the spots that I wanted to deal with.

The publication of the order: It’s to be notified, so it’s good that, by a newspaper in general circulation of an area, people are informed about a species coming in. For example, in Oshawa I’ve sent out notices to households. They were completely unaware of the emerald ash borer beetle, yet they have monstrous 100-year-old ash trees that could be affected. They had no idea of the requirement for protection. I remember one particular incident where I notified—they had an ash tree which is just magnificent. It’s probably about this big around in regard to size.

The difficulty with that is that it’s close to the house. The emerald ash borer beetle was in the area, because I know where the testing was, and I happened to see some of the trees that had been affected. This individual wasn’t really fully aware of what was taking place. The cost to have a crane come in and remove that tree would probably be in the tens of thousands of dollars in order to remove a tree that’s that close to the household,

whereas it would cost probably $300 every two years to maintain it until the emerald ash borer beetle had run its cycle and is no longer prevalent in the area. In that way, it would save the individual huge amounts of dollars. So it’s important to have notification.

It goes on that a posting would take place when an area is found to be contaminated with an invasive species. It’s important to ensure that the neighbours are notified of it as well, because the impact on them is going to be quite substantial. As much as Oshawa tries to get the message out, it’s difficult for everybody in those particular areas to become aware. I realize that the costs of dealing with this could be rather significant.

However, the cost of not dealing with it would be a lot more for individuals—to have to pay to have these trees removed or replaced in their yards or their properties, because it is quite costly—and the impact, as well, on the forest industry. We spoke about how the pine beetle affected western Canada and how we are impacted, and the forestry sector is seeing some of that impact here. But as well, ash trees are very good for many construction uses, whether it’s handles—ash handles are very popular—or in a number of other areas.

So if it’s utilized correctly, how would you be able to process those materials into functional aspects of society while the tree has died without further spreading the emerald ash borer beetle around? These are some of the things that, hopefully, the ministry is taking into consideration: how they can address some of the very specifics.

I think that back in 1999—I’m not sure if I had mentioned—to date, to 1999, there had been 140 exotic species or invasive species that had come in, which included the ruffe, round goby, zebra mussel, purple loosestrife and many others in the Great Lakes. Something else that has to be taken into consideration is working with the other jurisdictions, whether it’s Quebec, Manitoba—quite frankly, we are the only province on the Great Lakes—but with the other US jurisdictions around.

When I was asked to present before the US Senate committee, they were very interested, and actually, a number of the states had moved forward with legislation to address the very issue of ballast water discharge because of the impact on their communities as well. Working relationships and ensuring that the federal government comes forward in playing a partner in this is very important as well.

The minister mentioned the sea lamprey and the cost for that particular program, but as well, if we look at the impact on the fisheries and the commercial fisheries from the other states, it’s important that we all work together in ensuring that it’s all taken care of to the best of our abilities.

I had mentioned the purple loosestrife, and there were huge attempts to try and reduce the amount by going out and hand-picking—making sure the seeds weren’t spreading. There was a beetle that was developed by the ministry to go in and try to reduce the numbers, but then again, it’s an intentional invader, as I mentioned earlier, which can be used to counter some of the actions of things like purple loosestrife or beetles introduced to kill off the plant. We have to make sure this beetle doesn’t become a problem later on. It’s like that great Dr.

Seuss book where, in order to get rid of a mouse in the house, they eventually bring in things to counter it. It ends up that how they get the elephant out of the house that chases the lion out is to bring back a mouse. The whole grand circle of things and how we as a society are impacted by these sorts of things—we just have to make sure that the eventual outcome of introducing species to address these particular invasive species is not something that becomes problematic in the future as well.

There are many other things that have taken place. For example, in—I can’t remember which airport in New York state it was; however, a flock of parakeets got accidentally—during a shipment that was going to pet stores—released, and now there’s a self-sustaining flock of parakeets that are only found in Central and South America that are now in New York state at the airport. They’ve become somewhat of a sight, these parakeets that are now there. They have self-sustaining populations, and guess what? They’re slowly expanding, much as other species that have come forward.

There are other species as well that have been introduced, whether it’s the ring-necked pheasant or the elk that has been reintroduced into province of Ontario or turkeys or a number of other things that have been brought back intentionally. I recall some of the reasons—the minister would well know that one of the reasons that they were not going to release wild turkeys onto Manitoulin Island was because of the fact that the wild turkeys ate bugs, and there’s a very special leafhopper on Manitoulin Island that they were concerned would be negatively impacted once the wild turkeys had moved into that area.

Also, I can recall the discussions in the past that we were given—as the former Minister of Natural Resources—about the expansion of the turkey flocks and the release of those in the province of Ontario. There were some strong concerns that if we released them into certain areas, they—these are intentional invaders as listed by the Federation of Ontario Naturalists—would negatively impact other species in the particular area.

When that takes place, the guidelines that the ministry had established were, what were the traditional boundaries of the wild turkey, for example, and they tried to maintain those traditional areas that wild turkey was native to in the province of Ontario.

However, as we mentioned about the white-tailed deer slowly expanding its territory in the province—and I can recall in the 1970s when there were more car-deer collisions in New York state alone than there were of the entire deer population in the province of Ontario—it slowly expanded farther and farther north so that the populations of deer have moved forward. The position at that time in the ministry, which we tried to influence, was that we need to make sure that these areas are specifically taken into consideration. If the deer are expanding, so would the turkey range, because they kind of countered each other or dealt with each other; as the deer expanded, so should the range of that.

We very much appreciate the need for a warrant in dwellings. However, as I expressed earlier on, we have a strong concern about the use of warrants for properties as a whole. As I read the legislation—unless the minister can say otherwise—a warrant is not required to enter a property, only a dwelling on a property. So this allows inspectors—and the CO is listed simply by their job as an inspector on this—access to any properties that they deem fit. The difficulty is the individuals that they can deem as assistants to come on with them. Could that be an OSPCA—Ontario Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals—individual coming on board?

I know the member from Peterborough—knowing his rural community, some of the farming community would have concerns about those sorts of things happening, and establishing guidelines or the ability to ensure that the correct individuals—that the intent of the legislation is being followed out. Many times we bring these things forward, and the intent sometimes happens to open up doors to other activities that cannot be part of the intent.

I mentioned the notification to the surrounding properties, to ensure that it is done in the best way we can so that the individuals are notified of it and realize the impact, and I realize the minister is moving forward in the best way possible. I think we have a significant amount of support in many aspects of this. We want to ensure, as we continue on with globalization, what takes place, that we’re not exposing ourselves to many more diseases and insects, as such, coming forward.

Some of the aspects, as well—when you read the legislation, there doesn’t appear to be any funding specifically allocated that’s going to be there to ensure that what needs to be done gets done in the province of Ontario. I realize the ministry is trying to look at ways of cost recovery. We constantly read petitions, because there are some strong concerns about the hunting and fishing regulations not being readily available to individuals there and accessible to individuals.

It’s very difficult, as we’ve stated in the past—how an individual would be on a boat and be able to gain an understanding, on that particular lake, what the specific catch requirements or limitations are, and we want to make sure there are enough funds available to ensure that the people who are going to do the job have the necessary requirements and the funds to make it happen.

In

summary, Madam Speaker, there are a significant number of things that we’ve tried to bring forward: the aspect of warrantless entry on properties, not dwellings, is good; the use of an appointed individual to come on with it; to ensure that there’s adequate funding; to make sure that we look at other jurisdictions and not become solely dependent—we have to work with the federal government to ensure things on international trade. The Canadian Food Inspection Agency—most don’t realize they handle a lot of those things.

When the emerald ash borer beetle first came into Ontario in—I believe it was around Windsor, Ontario, and slowly expanded from that area—the belief was that it came in on skids. So when they were making skids, the skids had been infested with eggs or with beetles. The skids were not ensured to be insect-free, and they moved forward. It was the Canadian Food Inspection Agency that was handling most of that, to try to deal with it in that particular area. It hasn’t been successful. I know there were huge cut-offs of many of the trees in that area in order to stop it.

We have it in Oshawa; we have it in a number of areas as well.

It’s the same thing with some of the pine beetles, whether it’s western Canada or some of the European pine beetles that have come in and are attacking some of the forests here. We need to make sure that we work with the other jurisdictions, not as an independent or as an island but in the best way that we can all work with all the jurisdictions on behalf of all of the people of the province of Ontario.

Madam Speaker, I’m going to be sharing my time with the member—I want to make sure I get all aspects of his riding correct—from Haldimand–Norfolk. I’ve left a significant discussion about the Asian carp, because it’s something my colleague wants to discuss. He has a strong passion for it and has been speaking on it on a number of occasions in a number of locations—the impact of the Asian carp and how that’s going to affect many of us.

We need to work together, and I think we’ll continue to do so. With that, Madam Speaker, I’ll free up the time for my colleague to continue on with the debate.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Julia Munro): The member for Haldimand–Norfolk.

Mr. Toby Barrett: I certainly appreciate the opportunity to address Bill 167, the Invasive Species Act. I thank our MNR critic for sharing some of his time with me. Jerry, as we know, is a former Minister of Natural Resources and has done a tremendous amount of work in this field, particularly on those invasives into our Great Lakes.

I think he mentioned that back in the year 2000 he testified before a US Senate committee with respect to ballast water. He presented legislation in this House, a private member’s bill, to better enable us to protect the lakes on that particular front.

Mr. Ouellette mentioned that I testified recently before the US Army Corps of Engineers with respect to Asian carp. I attended the hearings down in New Orleans. My wife and I were on vacation, so I had an opportunity to spend a day over there.

The US government and various state governments are doing a tremendous amount of work on Asian carp. It’s incumbent on us in the province of Ontario and, of course, the federal government to step up to the plate as well, because they are on their way. It is a clear and present danger.

I found that in New Orleans I got a whole other perspective. In one sense, I was about as popular as a snake at a garden party, because the other 12 presenters represented the shipping industry—the tow tug, the barge industry on the Mississippi—and the crucial aspect of that industry to access the Great Lakes through the Chicago Sanitary and Ship Canal.

Here again, when we deal with legislation like this, we’re taking on Mother Nature, which makes us all understand how complex this is. When you bring in a law, there’s no guarantee that the possums, the white-tailed deer or the coyotes that have arrived are going to obey our law. They’re subject to the law of Mother Nature, as we are.

With respect to the shipping industry, they made some very good economic points. We have to be careful just on this one species—well, there are several species of Asian carp. If they get into Lake Erie, does that mean we shut down the Welland Canal? I don’t think that’s going to happen. We have to be cognizant of this when we see groups calling for the shutting down—essentially, the hydrological separation of the Great Lakes from the Mississippi basin at Chicago. I call for an ecological separation, and we can continue to do that through electric current, for example; sound vibration; the use of chemicals. Mr.

Ouellette made mention of the use of lampricide year after year to fight the sea lamprey.

The jury is still out on how best to deal with that particular group of invading species, the Asian carp. The grass carp are in the lakes now, and the big concern is the silvers—these are the jumpers—and the bighead carp.

I do want to go back to another area. There has been made mention of stakeholders that have an interest: the bait industry; agriculture, of course; forestry; and the ornamental plant industry, the greenhouse growers, where we get our flowers. We heard mention of purple loosestrife. Those greenhouses are going to be open for business in another matter of weeks. I don’t want to make any predictions, but it looks like spring is finally here.

Just by way of example, first off, I want to point out a very clear and present—a very close—example of what we’re dealing with here. I ask the members present: The next time you walk out the front door of this Legislature, take a walk over to the southeast. There is a gigantic, beautiful maple tree. It’s one of the biggest maple trees you’ll see anywhere in this part of Toronto. It’s not a sugar maple; it’s a Norway maple. It’s an invasive species. There may be a reaction. I have a Husqvarna. I’m not sure what brand you use, Jerry.

Mr. Jerry J. Ouellette: STIHL.

Mr. Toby Barrett: He’s a STIHL man; I’m Husqvarna. I used to run Homelite. That’s old-school, I guess. Sure, you can pull out a chainsaw and cut it down. You can hit the shoots with an herbicide. That’s one approach, but then there’s the other side of it. What kind of a furor would there be if we were to cut that invasive species down on the front lawn of the Ontario Legislature? It’s a city tree. They are trees that have been brought in. They’re kind of an urban street tree. A number of years ago, they were used to replace the dead elms from Dutch elm disease. Again, like so many invasives, the roots arrived from Europe in the mid-1700s for use as an ornamental.

That particular tree isn’t a problem. It’s surrounded by asphalt and traffic. It’s really not going to take over downtown Toronto. However, if you take a look at the beautiful ravines in Toronto known for their wildlife, many of these famous ravines are now infested. There is virtually nothing else apparent. You don’t really see anything else growing under the canopy of Norway maples. It’s just as much of a concern, or should be just as much of a concern; the Norway maple is just as much a concern in Toronto as the Norway rat, for that matter.

If I’m going to talk about wildlife in the city of Toronto, of course, there are too many raccoons. I personally think there are too many squirrels in the north end of Queen’s Park here. There are some solutions for that, and one very good solution is the red-tailed hawks that we have around here. Again, we can pass some laws, but Mother Nature can kick in and help out as well.

As far as that particular tree, or other trees, you can cut it down. Shoots can come up. We know that since April 2009, we all have to obey regulation 63/09 of Ontario’s Pesticide Act. I know that the minister made mention of other ministries that have a stake in this legislation as well. We know that with that particular regulation, there are exceptions for agriculture and forestry. There are provisions to use some of these products with respect to invasive species control.

Here’s another example—again, going back to this category of ornamentals. If I were to look out the front door of my home, I look across my field—it’s normally soybeans—about a quarter of a mile at the far end of the field is another maple. I didn’t plant it there. It arrived from somewhere. I’ve planted some white spruce in that area. They’re also an introduced species, I think, the same as the Colorados. What I have over in that corner is a Manitoba maple. I’ve left it there. I can control around that area; we farm around that area. I never considered it a concern. As far as maples, it’s not, obviously, my favourite tree.

If I look to the west, again, just out the front door of my house, and I look to my pond—the ice is slowly coming out of that pond. For 15 years I’ve watched phragmites forcing out my cattails, and I’ve been in an all-out war with phragmites. I’ve tried just about everything. My specialty is Roundup. You can’t spray over water. I use a long-handled paint roller, where I flatten the leaves of the phragmites. In September you do it when the fronds are out, and then roll it. I know MPP Monte McNaughton has done a considerable amount of work on this phragmites battle down in his part of the country.

The minister made mention of the Ministry of Transportation. If you drive down Highway 402, going west of London, you’ll see nothing but phragmites on Ontario government MTO property, from there right down to the Michigan border and further south, down towards Amherstburg and that way. I know there is a call certainly from my riding to have phragmites declared a noxious weed; that may be one approach that we could take.

Applause.

Mr. Toby Barrett: I hear a round of applause for that one.

Down below those trees is goat weed. I put in a rock garden; my wife planted goat weed and it took off. You can’t even see the rocks anymore. Across the lane is periwinkle that we planted on our steep slopes that we can’t mow. Some of it got dumped on the other side of the laneway. It’s heading through my bush. It probably won’t reach my father’s bush, where the trilliums are, because it’s got to go across Cockshutt Road. But again, periwinkle has been identified as an invasive species, and it can get out of control.

Across the lane and throughout much of my property just in the last few years there’s garlic mustard. I don’t know who brought garlic mustard here a hundred years ago. I understand part of it was for medicinal purposes: to use for ulcers, for gangrene, as a source of vitamin A and vitamin C. So I suppose we have a situation now—why pay, I don’t know, $12 for a bottle of vitamins? You can go out and grab some garlic mustard. I invite anyone here, if you want to come down to my farm and pull garlic mustard, you can have it for free and get all the vitamins that you want.

You can pull out those phragmites, if you want to give it a try. Those things are impossible to pull out or to dig out. They’re very tough. They’re something like burdock or teasels. I’ve spent decades fighting these kinds of weeds.

Here’s the kicker: Just south of my house a number of years ago I planted Russian olive. It’s identified under the invading species hotline. I’m going to read out this number, by the way. Invading species hot line: You dial 1-800-563-7711. The Russian olive is identified on the hotline. I planted them. Guess where I bought them? I bought them from MNR. I bought them from the St. Williams Forestry Station, Speaker. So again, new evidence, new knowledge comes along and it just lets us know—I have a feeling our time is up—that we can pass laws but we’re also dealing with some of those laws that have been dreamed up by Mother Nature. Thank you.

Second reading debate deemed adjourned.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Julia Munro): Thank you very much. It is 10:15 of the clock, so this House stands recessed until 10:30.

The House recessed from 1014 to 1030.

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I know that my critic the member for Oxford is going to want to do some introductions as well; I will begin. In question period today we have, from the Ontario Federation of Agriculture, Keith Currie, who is the vice-president; Paul Wettlaufer, who is the director of zone 2, from Bruce and Grey; Peggy Brekveld, the director of zone 15: Algoma, Cochrane, Dryden, Kenora, Manitoulin-North Shore, Nipissing east and west, Parry Sound, Rainy River, Sudbury east and west, Timiskaming and Thunder Bay; and Larry Davis, director of zone 3, from Brant, Haldimand and Norfolk. Welcome to OFA and all the other candidates.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Oxford: You can carry on.

Mr. Ernie Hardeman: Mr. Speaker, I’m pleased to rise today to recognize the members from the Ontario Federation of Agriculture who are here today to talk about how to grow Ontario’s agriculture industry. In the gallery we have Peggy Brekveld, Paul Wettlaufer, Larry Davis, Keith Currie, Ralph Brodie, Drew Spoelstra, Don McCabe and Joe Dickenson. I would like to welcome them all to Queen’s Park. I would hope that we all meet them in the dining room this evening at their reception.

Mr. Michael Mantha: I would like to introduce some new friends I made this morning. I have Seamus Morrin; his mom, Arleen Morrin; and his sister, Erin Morrin, from Brampton. Seamus is aspiring to become the Premier and Prime Minister.

Mrs. Laura Albanese: I am very pleased to rise to introduce and welcome to the chamber Miss Italy, Giulia Arena, who is here, together with Marcello Cambi, Italian journalist; Luigi Fioravanti, Italian photographer; Tony Pavia, Italian photographer; and Gino Cucchi, my constituent and the president of Comites. Welcome to the chamber. Benvenuti.

Mrs. Jane McKenna: Today is Burlington day at Queen’s Park. It is my honour to stand here today to introduce the mayor, Rick Goldring; his chief of staff, Jackie Isada; councillors Rick Craven, Marianne Meed Ward, Blair Lancaster, Jack Dennison and Paul Sharman; city manager Jeff Fielding—it keeps going—and his assistant, Leah Bisutti; Scott Stewart, Helen Walihura, Ian Cameron, Donna Kell, Bruce Zvaniga, Allan Magi and Joan Ford. Thank you so much.

Mr. John Vanthof: On behalf of the NDP caucus, I would also like to welcome the directors of the OFA here today, especially my director, a very good friend of mine, Peggy Brekveld.

Ms. Soo Wong: I have a lot of guests today. I want to start with the students in grade 10 at Dr. Norman Bethune, who are visiting, along with their teachers Ms. Rimell and Ms. Stojanovski.

As well, I have a lot more guests visiting, starting with the College of Trades: Mr. David Tsubouchi, CEO of the College of Trades—all of us know who he is; Pat Blackwood, vice-chair of the College of Trades; Gail Smyth, executive director of Skills Canada Ontario; John Norris, Collision Industry Information Assistance; John James, stylist; John Grimshaw, IBEW and Construction Council of Ontario; Fred Black, representative from the Electrical Contractors of Ontario; Chris Paswisty, Sheet Metal Workers’ and Roofers’ Conference; and Vince Kacaba of the Ontario Pipe Trades Council, as well as all the tradespeople who are visiting Queen’s Park. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

Mr. Bill Walker: I too would like to welcome the directors of the OFA—my great director is Paul Wettlaufer, from the great riding of Bruce–Grey–Owen Sound—and, of course, Miss Italy.

Mr. Rosario Marchese: I would like to welcome Ana Mateus, who’s at the back there. She is a social work student from Ryerson University. She has had a placement in my office for virtually a whole year. It has been a great pleasure to have her working with me in the constituency office.

Hon. John Gerretsen: I’d like to introduce Brian Maloney, who is here from Kingston.

Mr. Monte McNaughton: I’d like to introduce two members of the Ontario Federation of Agriculture from my riding of Lambton–Kent–Middlesex: Mr. Don McCabe, the vice-president, and also Ralph Brodie, a past president with the Kent Federation of Agriculture.

Mr. Monte Kwinter: We are going to be visited shortly—you just ran by them when you came up. They are from Israel and they are with the Diller teen development program from Eilat, Israel. There are 22 of them and they will be joining us shortly.

Mr. Steve Clark: I too want to thank all the directors of the OFA, the Ontario Federation of Agriculture, for being here today and I want to thank them for their unwavering support, Premier, in keeping agricultural education at Kemptville college.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): It’s moments like that that make it difficult for me to introduce guests, when we are asked to simply introduce our guests. Thank you.

The member from Perth–Wellington.

Mr. Randy Pettapiece: I’d like to introduce Brent Royce, a member of the OFA from my riding of Perth–Wellington.

Hon. Bill Mauro: I think I heard her name previously, but my constituent from the OFA is here as well, Peggy Brekveld, and I’d like to welcome to her to the Legislature today.

Mr. Todd Smith: It’s a pleasure to welcome Bruce Buttar from the OFA to the Legislature today. Welcome, Bruce.

Mr. Mike Colle: I’d like to welcome Gino Cucchi from Comites and from the St. Clair area business improvement association. Welcome, Gino.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): As is the tradition from the Speaker, we have with us today the former member for Markham in the 36th and 37th Parliaments, Mr. David Tsubouchi. David, welcome.

Applause

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): For those who may not know, David was also on the shortlist for the Speaker’s Book Award for his autobiography. Congratulations on being an author.

I also would like to welcome from my riding of Brant, Mr. Larry Davis from the OFA.

ORAL QUESTIONS

SKILLED TRADES

Mr. Tim Hudak: The question is to the Premier. I was talking to a young man in my riding named Justin. Justin wants to be an electrician. He’s finishing off high school at E.L. Crossley and he wants to get in the trades. But he was asking me why the Kathleen Wynne Liberals and the NDP stand in his way of getting a good job in the trades.

The Ontario College of Trades has locked in outdated apprenticeship ratios. They limit opportunities and they’re going to charge him a new tax. If I could do anything, I want to create a million jobs in our province, I want to see Justin achieve his dream of being an electrician in the province of Ontario.

My question to you, Premier, is: Why are you standing in the way of Justin getting a good job in the skilled trades?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please. Before I go to the Premier, a reminder that we refer to each other either by our title, specifically our title, and the ridings. I would appreciate very much your co-operation.

Premier?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: We very much want Justin to have the opportunity to develop a skilled trade. I want to thank David Tsubouchi, who has taken on a leadership role with the College of Trades. What the College of Trades is about is making sure that people who work in the skilled trades have decision-making power over what matters to them. That is the professionalism that we had wanted to put in place. That’s what the College of Trades is about.

I very much hope that Justin, whether he has taken

part in a Specialist High Skills Major, which is a program that we have put into our high schools, whether he is looking at getting into an apprenticeship at this point in his career, whether he had the opportunity to take

part in a pre-apprenticeship program in high school—there are many paths to skilled trades. The College of Trades puts that professionalism framework around that.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary.

Mr. Tim Hudak: That’s my point, Premier. Justin can’t find an apprenticeship position because you’re, quite frankly, in the pockets of the special interests, including Pat Dillon, who runs a Liberal negative ad—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Withdraw, please.

Mr. Tim Hudak: Withdraw.

Clearly, the Premier would rather listen to Pat Dillon, who runs the negative Liberal ad campaign, where I’m on the side of job creators and young people who want to get into the skilled trades. You know, a show I loved watching as I was going to university in the late 1980s was St. Elsewhere. Grey’s Anatomy is a popular one today. You don’t see a flock of doctors around one intern going from patient to patient. You see a flock of interns learning from one doctor. Last time I checked, doctors care very much about public safety. All I’m asking is to go to a 1-to-1 ratio.

A mentor-to-apprenticeship ratio like other provinces, including NDP Manitoba, will do. That will get Justin to work and bring 200,000 jobs into the skilled trades. That’s what I’m all about; why not you?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Stop the clock, please. Be seated, please. I’m quite prepared—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I’m still standing. I am quite prepared to get attention here, but the difficulty is, I’m still hearing heckling when the question is being put from the same side, as I’m trying to get attention to the other side when the answers are given. My tolerance level will not be very high today.

Carry on.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Nepean–Carleton will come to order.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: The screenwriters for Grey’s Anatomy are not the people who develop our policy. That may be how the Leader of the Opposition develops his policy, but that’s not how we do it. And if the Leader of the Opposition imagines that a doctor—or a nurse or a teacher—has one mentor throughout his or her training, then that just is evidence that the Leader of the Opposition really doesn’t understand how training works, and how people learn a trade or a skill or a profession. It takes many people to work with a professional, and that is the reality.

We have put the College of Trades in place. We’re very grateful to the people who have taken a leadership role there. We want people in the skilled trades to have control over the important decisions in their professions.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Final supplementary.

Mr. Tim Hudak: We know who writes your script. It’s Pat Dillon and the Working Families Coalition. Honest to goodness, Premier, it’s almost word for word.

Let me tell you where I get my advice from, and I’ll help Justin and 200,000 people like him get good apprenticeship jobs in skilled trades. I see what Liberal British Columbia does. I see what Progressive Conservative Alberta does. I even see what NDP Manitoba does. And you know what? I hear it from employers, I hear it from young workers and I hear it from Garfield Dunlop who lives and breathes and walks—

Interjections.

Mr. Tim Hudak: Quite frankly, Garfield Dunlop has probably forgotten more about the skilled trades than you and I would ever know combined.

I think I’ve got the facts on my side. I’ve got jobs on my side. I’m on the side of young people to get jobs in the skilled trades, of new Canadians who want to put those skills to work in the province of Ontario. Why are you standing in their way? Why are you against 200,000 new jobs?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please. Thank you.

Premier?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Minister of Training, Colleges and Universities.

Hon. Brad Duguid: Mr. Speaker, I’ll tell you who’s standing in the way of progress and modernization of the skilled trades. It’s the Leader of the Opposition. I’ll tell you who’s standing in the way of $185 million we’re investing every year in the skilled trades and apprenticeships and pre-apprenticeship programs. It’s that Leader of the Opposition, who doesn’t support those investments.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Member from Chatham, come to order.

Hon. Brad Duguid: I’ll tell you who’s standing in the way of jobs in the skilled trades, like the $33 billion we’re investing in infrastructure across this province. It’s that Leader of the Opposition, who refuses to support those investments. I’ll tell you who’s standing in the way of apprentices across this province. It’s the Leader of the Opposition, who wants the power to be able to dictate decisions in the skilled trades—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Lambton–Kent–Middlesex, come to order.

Hon. Brad Duguid: —rather than have the confidence in the people in the skilled trades to make those decisions.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. Stop the clock. Be seated, please.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Chatham–Kent–Essex will come to order.

New question.

SKILLED TRADES

Mr. Tim Hudak: Back to the Premier: I don’t think I’ve ever seen such a broad-based coalition that says we should eliminate the College of Trades so we can get people to work in the province of Ontario. Just yesterday, the labourers’ international union, in fact, the largest construction union in the entire province of Ontario, agreed with us. They stand against compulsory certification for carpenters—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The Minister of Natural Resource will come to order.

Mr. Tim Hudak: If you’re a union leader who’s pro jobs and pro opportunity, I stand with you. But if you’re a union leader who’s against jobs, wants to restrict supply and pad their own pockets, I’m not on your side; I’m on the side of jobs and opportunity.

I stand with the labourers’ international union. I stand with the small businesses. I stand with the young people who want to get into skilled trades. I stand with new Canadians who find that you’re imposing this thick wall between them and a good middle-class job.

I’m clear where I stand: opportunity, hope, good jobs. Why, Premier, do you stand with the special interests?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please.

Premier?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: The plan that we are putting in place is a plan to bring jobs to this province. It’s a plan that points to opportunity and security.

We look at what’s happened over the last few days: an increase of 13,400 net new jobs, an unemployment rate that has fallen to 7.3%. It’s fallen, Mr. Speaker. Thursday we announced revised deficit targets. We’ll beat the target by $400 million. Wednesday we tabled Ontario’s long-term report on the economic health of the province. We announced investment in coffee club—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Minister of Rural Affairs, come to order.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: —that will support 400 more jobs.

The work that we’re doing on this side of the House is about creating that opportunity, moving forward, bringing jobs to the province. I understand that the Leader of the Opposition wants to make personal attacks. He’s naming people in the House. That’s not how we’re going to function.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. Supplementary?

Mr. Tim Hudak: Premier, respectfully, the only plan you seem to have is an exit plan for young talent who are leaving our province to head out west. I want to see that young talent get a good job in Ontario, buy a home, be able to afford to pay a mortgage. You know what? When you get a job in the skilled trades and you get a lot of experience, odds are you’re going to start your own company down the road and hire more people. That’s the kind of opportunity I want to see in Ontario.

I’m desperate to see Ontario working again. You’re standing in the way. The labourers’ international union, the coalition of job creators, young people—they’re all saying, “Tear down this wall that stands in the way of getting good jobs in our province.” The College of Trades has been an abject failure. Today is its one-year anniversary. This is your opportunity to hit the reset button, to say no to the special interests and yes to more jobs in our province.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Minister of Training, Colleges and Universities, come to order. Member from Prince Edward–Hastings, come to order.

Mr. Tim Hudak: Premier, will you join the Ontario PC caucus, say no to the College of Trades and say yes to 200,000 good apprenticeship jobs in the skilled trades?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Stop the clock. Be seated, please.

Premier?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I just want to make sure that the Leader of the Opposition understands that the point of the College of Trades is to make sure that skilled tradespeople are certified to do the work that they’re performing. That’s the essence of the College of Trades. It seems to me that it would be a pretty precarious position for the Leader of the Opposition to take that people shouldn’t be—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Oxford will withdraw.

Mr. Ernie Hardeman: Withdraw.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: —that people shouldn’t be trained to perform the jobs that they’re performing. That’s the point.

On the issue of compulsory certification, we believe that the decision to certify or decertify as a compulsory trade should be made by skilled people through the college. That is the point of the College of Trades.

The Leader of the Opposition knows that ratios have been reviewed—more than their government reviewed when they were in office. These are not decisions that should be made by politicians, but rather by skilled—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. Final supplementary.

Mr. Tim Hudak: I’m disappointed that the Premier seems to exhibit such a patent disregard for what the largest construction union in the province, LIUNA, has to say. Basically, your suggestion is that they’re not qualified to do their job.

We’re talking about 100,000 skilled construction professionals. What you want to do with your compulsory certification is, you want to take them off the job site. You want to tell people who pick up a hammer and a saw every day that they’re not qualified to do the job in Liberal Ontario. You want them to go back to school. You want to close down businesses. This is not only me saying this; this is the largest construction union in the province. You know what? I’d take what Garfield Dunlop says any day, I’d take what LIUNA says any day over somebody who’s clearly captured by the special interests.

I don’t know why, Premier, you persist of blocking the entryway into good middle-class jobs. You won’t listen to me. Will you listen to the largest construction union in the province, say no to compulsory certification and say yes to more jobs?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please.

Premier.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: To the Minister of Training, Colleges and Universities.

Hon. Brad Duguid: Let’s talk about what the Leader of the Opposition stands for. He stands for the right to work for less for every worker in this place. He stands for a party that denigrates the capacity of skilled trade workers to govern themselves.

Let me tell you what we stand for. We believe in the capacity of skilled trade workers, just as 44 other professions, to govern themselves across this province. We believe that skilled trade workers are up to the job of governing themselves, like nurses, like social workers, like doctors and like lawyers.

It’s too bad that the Leader of the Opposition doesn’t have the confidence in our skilled trade workers that we do. He wants to make those decisions himself. He wants those decisions made like they have been for the last 30 years: in smoky backrooms, in the backrooms of Queen’s Park.

We’re for modernizing the skilled trades. We’re for giving skilled trade workers the ability to do it themselves.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please.

New question.

POWER PLANTS

Ms. Andrea Horwath: My question is to the Premier. When the Premier took over the Ontario Liberal Party, she said this: “We’re going to build on the legacy of Dalton.” Does she still stand by that statement?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Absolutely; because of the work that we have done since 2003 in our education system and our health care system. In our health care system, wait times are down, and we’ve got more home care in the system, more doctors, more nurses. Kids are achieving more in school. We had 68% of kids graduating from school when we came into office; 83% of kids are graduating from high school today. I stand by that record absolutely every day.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please. Thank you.

Supplementary.

Ms. Andrea Horwath: The Premier sat in cabinet when decisions on the gas plants were made, and signed off on those decisions. She had a leadership role in the campaign when the decision was made to cancel the Mississauga gas plant. Does she agree that those decisions are part of the so-called legacy of Dalton?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I have answered that question over and over and over again. I have said that there were decisions made that I had nothing to do with. There were fundamental decisions made that I believe were not the right decisions. I have said that. I have appeared before committee, and I have said that.

I have worked, since I came into this office, to make sure that all of the information that has been asked for has been provided. The committee has had hundreds of thousands of pages of documents. The committee knows that they have the capacity to continue to ask people to come before them. We opened up the process, and we have moved to change the rules around the siting of energy infrastructure, which was at the root of this challenge.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Final supplementary.

Ms. Andrea Horwath: How signing a cabinet document has nothing to do with the gas plant scandal is beyond me, but maybe this Premier can justify it.

Last February, the Premier said the following about Dalton McGuinty: “I’m proud to have been part of his government.” The Premier has been at pains lately to avoid even saying the name Dalton McGuinty, despite serving as a key part of his team for 10 years. He’s now referred to as “the former Premier.”

Can the Premier even say the words “Dalton McGuinty,” or does she think avoiding that name magically absolves her of all responsibility for the gas plant scandal?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I am very proud to have been part of a government that undid the real destruction that had been in place under the previous government. I got involved in provincial politics because there was a government in place in this province from 1995 to 2003 that had no respect for our public institutions, that undermined labour and that really changed the rules in terms of the supports for the citizens of this province. That’s why I got involved in provincial politics, and the work that we have done is work that I am proud of.

Were there decisions made that I think should have been different? Absolutely. I have said that repeatedly. I have taken responsibility and I have apologized for decisions that were made, but we are moving forward. I think the leader of the third party—it would be a very helpful thing if she would talk to us about what, for example, her energy policy is—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Stop the clock, please. Be seated, please.

New question?

POWER PLANTS

Ms. Andrea Horwath: My next question is also for the Premier. When did the Premier become aware that the Premier’s office computers had been wiped clean?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: There is an OPP investigation going on; I am not going to comment on an ongoing investigation. As I have said, the allegations that have been made as a result of that investigation are allegations against someone who did not work in my office.

What we are doing on this side of the House is we are letting that investigation go on, and we are very, very focused on putting in place the policies and the investments to make sure that we have prosperity in the future and that there’s security for the people in this province. That is what we are going to embed in our budget that we will be bringing forward. It would be very, very helpful if the leader of third party wanted to engage in any of those policy discussions.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Ms. Andrea Horwath: It would be helpful if the Premier answered my question, Speaker.

Long after the Premier took charge of the Liberal Party, her government was dismissing concerns about key Liberal staff who said quite proudly that they routinely deleted emails.

Now we know that unauthorized individuals were roaming the halls tampering with staff computers, yet the Premier still claims she is as shocked as anyone else. Can the Premier tell us how she can possibly not have known that this was happening?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: The reason we are having this conversation, the reason that the leader of the third party is asking these questions, is because we opened up the process. I came into this office and I said, “We are going to ask”—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Stop the clock, please. Be seated, please. Order. Start the clock.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Order.

Finish, please.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

I was very clear when I came into this office that those questions needed to be asked and answered, and so that is what has happened. We will continue to co-operate, obviously. There’s an investigation going on; we will let that go on.

But we are very focused on making sure that we have a path forward to opportunity and security, whether it’s in education or whether it’s in health care. I would be happy to talk with any of the members on the other side of the House about any of those issues any time.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Final supplementary?

Ms. Andrea Horwath: This Liberal Premier can try to rewrite history as much as she wants, but there’s something called contempt that we all know occurred, and you can’t erase that from the history books.

Ontarians want to see a government that is accountable to the people who are stuck paying the bill for government spending. The Premier can try to rewrite history, but people haven’t forgotten that she was a key part of the team that steered us directly into this mess, and all of the ducking, all of the dodging and all of the denials in the world are not going to change that.

The Premier can start by answering some basic questions like: When exactly did she become aware the Premier’s office computers had potentially been wiped clean?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: There is an entirely independent police investigation going on so I am not going to comment on that investigation.

What I am going to say is that we made it clear that there were changes that needed to be made. We have worked to make those changes. First of all, we opened up the process around the questions around the relocation of the gas plants. We opened up the scope of the committee. We’ve changed the rules around the siting of energy infrastructure. We’ve changed the rules around the retention of documents. We’ve made those changes in consultation with people like the Information and Privacy Commissioner. That is work that we have done in order to make sure that these kinds of questions do not arise again, because the decisions that are made will be made differently.

I’m very proud of that work. I’m also proud of the work that we’re doing to bring forward a budget that is going to work to ensure security—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. Stop the clock for a second.

Earlier, I had mentioned that the member from Huron–Bruce should come to order. I did not mean to say Huron–Bruce; I apologize. I meant to say Bruce–Grey–Owen Sound, who is working on his second one.

New question.

SKILLED TRADES

Mr. Garfield Dunlop: Mr. Speaker, I’d like to welcome all the people who are associated with the College of Trades and all the different tradespeople who are here today for this debate, and my friend David Tsubouchi as well. Thank you, David.

My question today is for the Minister of Training, Colleges and Universities. Minister, your latest tax grab and boondoggle, the Ontario College of Trades, is one year old today. As a communications and consultation nightmare, I don’t think anything is more damaging than the fact that they are well on their way to the compulsory certification of the carpentry trade.

I have asked you in this House to intervene on this decision, and you have ignored me. Now the largest labourers’ union, LIUNA—and I understand the member from Essex is actually a member of LIUNA—has asked that you put a moratorium on any compulsory certification of construction trades.

Interjection.

Mr. Garfield Dunlop: If you’re a proud member, you should have voted with me the other day.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Your time is up. Don’t talk to him; talk to me. Sit down. Your time is up.

The Minister of Training, Colleges and Universities.

Hon. Brad Duguid: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Similar to his leader, the member seems to not be able to ask a question or make a comment on the College of Trades without tonnes of hyperbole, without information that’s generally not correct. If you listened to the member in the last couple of weeks, he was saying 85,000 apprentices would be out of work April 8. Well, guess what? It’s April 8. There are no apprentices out of work, sir. You were dead wrong. Your credibility is absolutely shot when it comes to these issues.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Finish, please.

Hon. Brad Duguid: I look forward to working with the Ontario College of Trades, as we all do. Some of the issues they’re going to be dealing with are very challenging. They are going to have to take a very thoughtful approach to these decisions. I’m very confident that they will.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary.

Mr. Garfield Dunlop: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’m sorry I took too long with that first question, but the supplementary—I know that Jack Oliveira, the business manager of Local 183 from LIUNA, says, “This will drive up costs and could puts thousands of our members out of work.”

People are lining up fighting this. Now federal minister Jason Kenney has come out swinging against this idiotic proposal. Minister Kenney says that a disastrous decision like this warrants national attention.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Stop the clock. Order.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Look, I’m trying to get quiet over here, and you’re not helping. Everyone should be able to put a question and answer a question uninterrupted.

Carry on, please.

Mr. Garfield Dunlop: Minister Kenney says, “There is a growing concern that while most provinces in Canada are looking at ways to remove barriers to entering the skilled trades, Ontario is heading in the opposite direction—the wrong direction.”

I ask you once again, Minister, to please immediately order a moratorium on any new compulsory certification of trades. Will you do that, Minister?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Stop the clock, please. Be seated, please. Thank you.

Minister.

Hon. Brad Duguid: What is it about the arrogance of PC politicians to think that politicians know more about skilled trades than skilled tradespeople themselves? We’ve seen how that’s worked the last 20 years. The member wants to get rid of the College of Trades just when it’s getting up and running. For some reason, he thinks that skilled tradespeople aren’t capable of making these important decisions affecting their professions. We think differently, Mr. Speaker. We have confidence in skilled tradespeople that they will work in the spirit of self-governance. We do not want to do what he wants to do.

He wants to bring that administration back into government. That’s what I call big government tax-and-spend politics, something that I find surprising coming from the member opposite. We believe that the people in the skilled trades will manage these issues very thoughtfully.

POWER PLANTS

Mr. Peter Tabuns: To the Premier: Has the Premier talked to Christy Clark since New Democrats wrote a letter to her so we could ensure that Laura Miller, former deputy chief of staff, could appear at the justice committee?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Government House leader.

Hon. John Milloy: We had a chance to deal with this issue yesterday. The fact of the matter is that the justice committee—which the Premier asked, when she became Premier, be given very broad scope and extremely, I would say, broad powers, in the sense that they can sit at the call of the Chair and they can direct their proceedings as they see fit. They have the power and the authority to invite who they see fit to come and be witnesses. Certainly, we respect the work of the committee, and we respect the fact that they have that opportunity to call who they see fit for witnesses as they undertake this work.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Peter Tabuns: I’m glad the government respects the work of the committee. I’m just asking that they be helpful. If the Premier hasn’t done it already, when will she or her staff be reaching out to the BC Liberals to ensure that Laura Miller can appear at the justice committee to give testimony?

Hon. John Milloy: Again, the justice committee has the authority to invite witnesses to come forward. As any committee of this House, there are steps they can take if they feel that they’re not getting co-operation from witnesses. Let’s leave that with the justice committee.

We’ve all had our share of frustrations. As members know, earlier in this session there was a lot of frustration on our side because we wanted to hear from some of the candidates in the opposition parties: the candidates who went into the last election making the exact same promise that the government made about the cancellation of the gas plants. We heard it from the PCs and we heard it from the NDP: that if they were elected, they would undertake the exact same cancellation that we did. So there has been some frustration on this side of the House, but again, let’s leave this with the committee.

SKILLED TRADES

Ms. Mitzie Hunter: My question is to the Minister of Training, Colleges and Universities. For months, we’ve seen

article after

article talking about an alleged trades tax being forced on skilled tradespeople across Ontario by the College of Trades. We’ve watched anti-college groups surface, like Stop the Trades Tax Coalition. We’ve heard accusations, even today, from the opposition that the college is trying to put people out of work. Most recently, we are hearing allegations that the government is forcing compulsory certification on voluntary trades.

People are overwhelmed and confused by all this negative rhetoric around the College of Trades and want some answers. Through you, Speaker: Will the minister explain to the House whether there is any truth to these accusations?

Hon. Brad Duguid: I thank the member for asking such a direct question, because I think we have to be very, very clear here. The membership fee that the College of Trades is putting forward is the lowest membership fee of all the regulatory bodies across this province. What is it doing? It’s paying for the College of Trades to ensure that those hard-working skilled tradespeople who go to school, who take an apprenticeship, who get their certificate of qualifications, are protected from the underground economy. That’s important to those young people.

We want to build a skilled trades sector that’s welcoming of young people and gives them a career for life. That’s one of the ways we’re going to do that.

There are a number of issues that the member raised that are very, very important. Let’s be very, very clear as well. The Ontario College—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Answer.

Hon. Brad Duguid: I’m going to have to answer that in the supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Think so? Thank you. Supplementary?

Ms. Mitzie Hunter: Thank you, Minister, for that great answer and for standing up for Ontario’s skilled workers. I know that people will be glad to hear that the province is standing up for skilled tradespeople, especially when the party opposite is not. I look forward to continuing to help inform them on how they can become part of that process, unlike those who simply want to fight against it.

We’ve heard a lot today about the myths surrounding the college. Given that today is the one-year anniversary of the creation of the college, can the minister speak further on the important work of the College of Trades and what they are doing to help support skilled workers in Ontario?

Hon. Brad Duguid: I certainly can and I look forward to doing that, but I want to respond a little bit to the last part of her first question, Speaker. Let’s be very, very clear: The Ontario College of Trades and the government of Ontario are not moving forward with compulsory certification for any trades. That’s not something that we have the power to do. That’s something that ought to be put through a proper process, which is what the Ontario College of Trades is there to do. I think it’s important that that’s clarified.

Over the last year, what the College of Trades has been able to do is provide enhanced consumer protection so that when our grandmothers and mothers are going to the mechanic to get their brakes fixed, they know that a certified mechanic is there to fix their brakes. They are providing a form of self-governance for the trades so the trades can make these decisions themselves. They’re ensuring that young people have access to the trades, and promoting the skilled trades, and they’re protecting our hard-working skilled tradespeople to ensure that the qualifications they have are respected.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Earlier, I asked the member from Oxford to withdraw. I was mistaken and I apologize to the member. If any other member wishes to stand to withdraw, I will accept that.

Mr. Steve Clark: Withdraw, Speaker.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): New question.

POWER PLANTS

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: My question is to the Premier. Can the Premier tell us why Brianna Ames’s computer was wiped despite the fact she did not work in the Premier’s office until she began working for the Premier herself?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: As I have said, there is an entirely independent investigation going on. I am not going to comment on that investigation. I think the member opposite knows that that is the case. I have answered questions, we have provided documentation, we have opened up the process, but the investigation that’s going on is independent.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: Well, there is an investigation also being done by the OPP today, and they’re probably going to be bringing more people forward. I’m wondering if the Premier can tell us if any members of her transition team, any members of her current staff or any members of her cabinet are to be contacted as a result of an Ottawa Citizen story by the OPP on this ongoing investigation. Could she please explain to the House if that’s the case?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: No, I can’t. I can’t tell the Leader of the Opposition what the OPP investigation is going to do over the next period of time because it is an independent investigation. It is independent from government.

I heard of the allegations on March 27. The allegations are against the former chief of staff of the former Premier. It has nothing to do with the staff member who you mentioned. The fact is that I believe it really is unfair for the member opposite to drag staff members’ names in here when there is an independent investigation going on. I think that all of us should let that investigation run its course.

PAN AM GAMES

Mr. Paul Miller: My question is to the Premier. The Standing Committee on General Government is currently reviewing the Pan/Parapan Am Games. This review was struck in order to get to the bottom of all costs and to bring together all the fragmented pieces in the hope of clarifying responsibility and costs for the games as a whole. Yet the work of the committee members has been restricted from investigating the full scope of the games and something as fundamental as security.

Speaker, does this Premier agree that the scope of the committee should be so restricted?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Government House leader.

Hon. John Milloy: I think the honourable member needs to be very careful. The work that is being undertaken by the committee is based on a motion that was passed by all members of the committee on November 4, which outlines the framework on which the committee will work.

I understand that the Chair of the committee made an independent ruling. That is a ruling by the Chair that has nothing to do with any party in this House. It is the Chair looking at procedural work that has gone forward. Mr. Speaker, I think he should be very careful. The committee’s work, which is being undertaken, as I say, is based on the determination of the committee.

At the same time, I would remind the member that there are other committees of this Legislature that are looking at the Pan Am issue, including the public accounts committee, which has asked the Auditor General specifically to look into the security matters.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Paul Miller: “Obstruction” is a wonderful word.

In spite of the restrictions, we found out yesterday that the $239 million earmarked for security is only an estimate. In other words, we have no guarantee that the costs will not continue to skyrocket, nor that we’ll get the best value for the security costs. After question period today, I’ll be moving a unanimous consent motion that will finally allow the committee to do their work and look at the whole picture.

Will this Premier show that she really wants transparency, accountability, and clarity, and say now that she will support this motion?

Hon. John Milloy: These are the most open and transparent multi-sport games ever. The government brought the games organizing committee of TO2015 under the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act. I know that the minister responsible for the Pan Am Games is holding regular briefings for the media and interested members of the public. We have been forthcoming to the various committees. As I say, the public accounts committee is specifically looking into the security issue.

In terms of member’s unanimous consent motion that he has put forward, I think he would agree that this is a matter that should be dealt with by House leaders, so that we don’t interfere in what’s going on in committees through a UC motion on the floor of the House. The committee’s mandate was confirmed by the committee on November 4. There are a number of committees looking into this matter and we have been very, very open and transparent.

CONSIDERATION OF BILL 21

Mr. Shafiq Qaadri: Ma question est pour le ministre du Travail, the Honourable Kevin Flynn, mais avec votre permission, monsieur le Président, en même temps je voudrais féliciter le D r Philippe Couillard, premier ministre élu du Québec.

Minister, yesterday Bill 21, the Leaves to Help Families Act, was debated in the Legislature. I spoke on behalf of my constituents, but we were somewhat dismayed to witness the opposition put up speaker after speaker, possibly to drag out the clock. It’s a bill that all parties support, a bill about compassion, and yet every day the bill is stalled further.

Ontarians with a family member who has a serious medical condition are missing out on the time they may be able to spend with their loved ones: critically ill children; individuals who have federal funding struggle financially, unable to access it as a provincial worker; and families whose children in fact have been murdered or have gone missing—all of these individuals are affected. To the minister: What can we collectively do as members to make sure this legislation passes quickly?

Hon. Kevin Daniel Flynn: Thanks to the fine member from Etobicoke North for that question. Our government recognizes the importance of giving families the time to be with their loved ones and the other positive effects that this bill can have on the lives of everyday Ontarians. That’s why, on this side of the House, we’re doing everything we can to move this bill through the Legislature. But with respect, the opposition parties are needlessly extending debate on Bill 21.

Listen to this: This bill has been in the House for over a year—14 different days, 22 hours of debate and 75 speakers. Listening to debate, it’s been clear that the majority of members in this House support this bill. This signals that there’s no true desire to have further meaningful debate on this bill and their only goal is to delay. I’m calling on the opposition parties to stop stalling. Help us pass this legislation.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please. Supplementary?

Mr. Shafiq Qaadri: Minister, as you said, we certainly respect all members’ democratic right to speak on behalf of their constituents. That’s their right as well as their duty. But a bill that’s being delayed, dragged out and filibustered, that has a direct impact on the lives of many Ontarians, including residents in my own riding of Etobicoke North—that is not, I think, the best path forward.

We had representatives from the Ontario Caregiver Coalition, the Heart and Stroke Foundation, Alzheimer Society of Ontario, Service Employees International Union, Canadian Cancer Society and the Ontario Home Care Association, all of whom are on record as wanting this bill passed expeditiously. Yet we still watch an opposition talk about the million jobs plan and other unrelated bills, while engaging in what can be charitably called debate.

Can the minister please inform this chamber what has been the progress on this bill to date?

Hon. Kevin Daniel Flynn: Thank you again to the fine member from Etobicoke North for that question. As I mentioned in the last response, the opposition has had ample time during second reading to discuss any possible concerns or amendments they may have. Again, the bill has been in the House for over a year—14 different days, 22 hours of debate and 75 speakers. We’ve had two full days of committee where there were public hearings and amendments were made.

This is not the time to debate new amendments to the bill. I believe it’s disrespectful to everyone that could be helped in the province of Ontario by the passage of this legislation for the opposition to continue this irresponsible filibustering.

When we voted on this as a whole in committee, Bill 21 received all-party support and it was asked to be reported back to the House for third reading. It’s time to stop using this important bill that could help people to play politics. Let’s get the bill passed. We need the opposition to start showing their support for this.

POWER PLANTS

Mr. Ted Arnott: My question is for the Premier. People of Wellington–Halton Hills who are closely watching what’s happening in this Legislature no doubt were startled to read, in the Toronto Star on March 28, no less than eight pages on the gas plant scandal, including a bombshell allegation that the former Premier’s chief of staff might face criminal charges for arranging the deletion of internal government emails relating to the cancellation of the Oakville and Mississauga gas plants.

The Toronto Star reported that an outside person was given access to 24 computers in the Premier’s office during the transition between the McGuinty and Wynne Liberal governments, just over one year ago. This is what was in the Toronto Star.

With all that has happened on this file and the recent Toronto Star disclosures, how on earth does the Premier expect the people of Ontario to give her the benefit of the doubt?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please. Thank you.

Premier?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: The government House leader.

Hon. John Milloy: I appreciate the fact that the honourable member was quoting from the media. I’d like to just remind him what the media reviews have been about the performance of his party and, in particular, his leader on this file.

From the Toronto Star, the publication that he quoted: The Leader of the Opposition “went far beyond what the facts show”—April 1, 2014. Another quote from the same date: The Leader of the Opposition is “inventing fanciful scenarios about the first days of Wynne’s premiership.”

Ottawa Citizen, April 1: The PCs “asked repeatedly whether Wynne’s computer was among those wiped, which makes little sense: the police are crystal clear that they’re interested in computers in McGuinty’s office, where Wynne did not work.”

A Globe and Mail editorial, April 1, 2014: “Ontario Progressive Conservative leader Tim Hudak is on thin legal ice.” A Globe and Mail editorial, April 1: The Leader of the Opposition claimed “that Premier Wynne was personally behind any wiping of government computers”—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. Supplementary?

Mr. Ted Arnott: Back to the Premier: The government is quick to point out that the possible criminal breach of trust took place before the member for Don Valley West was sworn in as Premier. By taking this approach, they throw their former leader, Mr. McGuinty, unceremoniously under the proverbial bus. The government would also want us to overlook the fact that the day that the member for Don Valley West was elected leader of the Liberal Party, in January 2013, she became the incoming Premier. As incoming Premier, the power and authority and trust inherent in that high office immediately began to shift to her.

She can hardly claim that she has no responsibility for the transition period while blaming everything on the predecessor whose leadership she was proud to endorse through three provincial elections. How in good conscience can she continue to blame all this on Dalton McGuinty?

Hon. John Milloy: We had the OPP appear in front of the committee, and they told us two things. First of all, this is directed towards the former Premier’s chief of staff. The second is that MPPs should stay out of this police investigation.

As I said yesterday, I am pleased with and proud of the fact that the Premier is seeking legal advice in this matter. We look to the opposition to apologize and retract their statements. As I said, their critic, the member from Nepean–Carleton, has experience in it.

I quoted yesterday from this news release on January 31 from the member from Nepean–Carleton, who said she was sorry for the negative perception that may have been created in terms of her allegations against Maureen Murphy-Makin or Rick Morgan “for wrongfully implicating them in an erroneous story in January 2004 revolving around the decision by former PC leader Peter MacKay not to seek the leadership of the new Conservative Party of Canada.” She apologized then—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. New question.

ONTARIO NORTHLAND TRANSPORTATION COMMISSION

Mr. John Vanthof: My question is to the Minister of Northern Development and Mines. Last week, the government announced that it was keeping Ontario Northland public. But at the same time, in the same announcement, it said it was selling Ontera, the communications arm of the ONTC, the one part of the ONTC that actually isn’t costing the government any money.

The sale to Bell Aliant is for $6 million, but the fibre optic ring alone, that Ontario owns, is worth $23 million. On top of that, it will cost the government an estimated $60 million to transfer Ontera to Bell Aliant, and 100 jobs will be lost.

Why does this government keep signing bad deals and letting Ontarians pay the tab?

Hon. Michael Gravelle: I was very pleased to be in North Bay last week to announce, after a year of very