LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, 13 April, 1981 Time - 8:00 p.m. CONCUR RENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SU PPLY - NATURAL RESOURCES MR. CHAIRMAN, Morris McGregor (Virden): Natural Resources, 1. (a)

(1) Minister's Salary. The Honourable Member for Ste .. Rose. MR. A. R. (Pete) ADAM: I had a few notes here some place if I can get my hands on them, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHA IRMAN: The Ho nourable Mem ber for Rupertsland. MR. HARVEY BOSTROM: Wh ile the Member for Ste. Rose is getting his notes together, perhaps we can explore - the Minister was concluding his comments, I think, when we adjour ned at 4:30 regarding the possibility of an agreement with the Shoal Lake Band that would provide access for the people of Winni peg and, Mr.

Chairman, I might point out that at the present time. to my knowledge anyway, there is no access for Manitobans directly onto the Shoal Lake area other than, I think there may be access further down in the province into the Lake of the Woods area via the Bu ffalo Bay Development, which was proceeded with just in the last few years. So in that area of the province with what's up against the Shoal Lake area is either to my knowledge, Crown land that's not really suit�ble for access to that lake or the only really possible access is through the Shoal Lake Reserve.

The Shoal Lake Band through their discussions with the officials and other people within the government of Manitoba in the last couple of years have to come to, I believe, agree to provide up to half a mile of shoreline to the Province of Manitoba in return for an access road to their reserve and their proposed development. I think on the face of it ihat appears like it wouldn't be a bad deal for the Province of Manitoba provided that there are sufficient safeguards built in to the proposed development so that any concerns that the City of Winnipeg may have with respect to their water supply are taken care of.

I think it should be possible, since we are talking about really a domestic kind of subdivision arrangement, it should be possible for them to design a system for sewage that would not have any impact on the water system. That is, they could have a completely closed system, perhaps a lagoon or a pump out system, or whatever may be the case.

I mean if the City of Winnipeg wants to lay down a very very strict conditions such as no change in the water quality, that is no sewage, no pollution in the water, I think that it would be possible to design such a system and it could be at the expense, of course, of the developer, which is the Band in this case.

If that condition were met, the province then could have the possibility of having quite a choice piece of shoreline on Shoal Lake which would provide, hopefully, public access for the people of Manitoba to quit e an attractive lake resort, and it's in 2715 reasonably close proximity to our major population centre, which is the City of Winnip eg with a fairly short access road off of the main No. 1 Highway leading east, that whole area could be accessed.

Of course, once Manitobans have that kind of access by way of road access and shoreline access on Shoal Lake, the sort of possibilities are opened up for other opportunities for Manitobans because I think there are other proposed developments around the lake, such as cottage lot deve lopments which are accessible by water and so on. So the opportunities for Manitobans are really opened up quite a lot by having that kind of potential access. I am wondering if the Minister is really open to this kind of a proposal or if he is in his mind sort of prejudic ed in advanc e against that kind of a proposition.

Is he open to the discussion and the possibility of arriving at agreement whereby the Band would provide up to half a mile of shoreline in return for this access road. Now I understand that there has been negotiations and horsetrading of a sort back and forth here where the Band had agreed to half a mile and then the Province of Manitoba sent out a draft agreement saying they wanted a mile, and they of course countered and said, no, you guys had agreed to half a mile, so why are you now saying a mile.

Then the province sent back another agreement saying they wanted 3,500 feet plus another 800 feet on another shore, so in a sense they were asking for around 4,3 00 or 4,4 00 feet of shorel ine, which is just marginally less than the original mile they were demanding. That apparently took quite a chunk out of the proposed development, so I think, that agreement may be not possible to negotiate.

They may say that's just too much to give up, and they may say, okay, all we want is access across Crown land, which I think it's reasonable for them to ask, if they satisfy the environmental considerations, in which case they would build their own road, if they got the access across Crown land and the province would be out the opportunity of obtaining a half a mile or perhaps a little bit better amount of shoreline for public use and public benefit.

I wonder what the Minister's thoughts are in this area and whether or not he's intending to pursue with the negotiations once the environ mental conce�ns are completed or if he's in fact considering pursutng the negotiations even while the environmental considerations are being studied with the provision that, of course, these things are subject to the proper environmental safeguards being met. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. HON. HARRY J. ENNS (Lakeside): Mr. Chairman, I have the feeling that I have from my point of view exhausted this subject.

The honourable mem ber referred several times to the Environmental Impact Study that is currently under way. We look to that Study to set out some of the concerns and perhaps some of the guidelin es that one would expect responsible jurisdictions will adhere to in terms of any future development in that area.

Nlonday, 13 April, 1981 I don't rule out anything, Mr. Chairman. It's my responsibility at this time, as Minister ol Natural Resources. to be apprised of the situation a 1d to act accordingly. I won't be drawn into comments with respect to activities that have been undertaken by my colleagues or other staff members.

I thought prior to the supper hour adjournment I nd icated fairly clearly the extent to which the Department of Natural Resources, which in the final inst.mce has the specific resp onsibility in this area - the hono urable member made a point of r� minding committee members that another Minister or other persons that had entered into discussions with the Ind ian Band were not directly respons ble with respect to the Department of Natural Resources.

I remind the honourable member opposite that the qu estion of access to an otherwis e isola ted community has to also be taken into con:;ideration with the fact that there is an access road live miles on the other side of the Ontario-Manitoba border, a reasonably good road of 11 miles, which I have had the privilege of travelling on a few occasions myself.

That probably is considerably better than many areas east of Lake Winnipeg, or throughout Northern Mani toba, wher e priority se ttings of access to isolated communities could be considered, if I were to approach it from a Highways Minister point of view of simply being concerned about providing access to a community. But, Mr. Chairman, I am repeating myself and I am not doing justice to the committee by doing so. I really want to leave on the record, Mr.

Chairman, the very straightforward and sincere statement of the department that we have no prejudice anainst the Indian Band No. 40 in providing a solution to their problem. We had, I think correctly so and I am being so advised by senior staff within the department, that we have a very specific responsi bility, though, towards the potential difficulties that could arise, for several reasons. Number one is that if in fact no satisfactory arrangement is arrived at with espect to the opening up of this land to development, this is land that we have no planning control ove ·.

It is not provincial land as such, inasmuch as we me talking about Indian rP.serve land. Number two, that calls then for some method, and I'm not pr·�pared to speculate on what precisely the method ought to be, that would provide a satisfactory planning control, which I am sure the honourable member can concur. Whether that involves a future land exch 2nge, that may well be and I certainly don't close any doors. Let me simply say, Mr.

Chairman, the department has no prejudice, no bias, in this situation but we take our responsibilities as a departmem seriously and cannot or will not be bound by other discussions, informal as they may have oeen, that have been carried out on this matter. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, it's precisely for the reasons that the Minister ind icates that the government does not have any planning control or authority over In d ian Band lands, th at I am suggesting that he pursue the possibility ol obtaining an agreement with the Band which, number one, would protect the environment, first of ;; II.

He has that ability because the Band, in thi:; case, is request ing that the go vernment make access available across Crown land and in the case of the trade-off of shoreline to the Province of Manitoba, 2716 they are saying that they would request that the government actually provide the access by way of building a road to the community. So I think that the government here, in the sense of having something to negotiate with, has the lever to be able to, number one, protect the environment, and numb er two, provide for Man itobans a reasonable public access to the Shoal Lake area.

Those are two very good reasons, I think, why the government shouldn't just give this whole thing the back of their hand and say, you fellows go and use your road in Ontario, or do your development the way you want but don't talk to us about it. I think that the reason I was pursuing this really is because I think that the government should have an open mind on it and should be looking at it from the two points of view, protecting the environment and providing a reasonable access to Shoal Lake to the people of Manitoba generally for recreational purposes. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Hono urable Mem ber for Portage Ia Prairie. MR. LLOYD G. HYDE: Mr. Chairman, I would like to enquire of the Minister, I notice in his Parks paper here that he has got Norquay Beach on there for upgrading and a new water treatment plant and landscaping. There is also one more other

article I would like him, if he would, to give me a brief explanation as to what the program for that Portage Diversion Recreation Centre is all about. Really, I personally don't know a great deal about what is proposed for that area and I am just wondering if the Minister could upgrade me on that. The exact location, too, is what I would like to have, if I may. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, the concept that we have that could utilize the area in and around the impoundment of water that is created by the Portage Diversion works on the Assiniboine, and is part of the new initiative by the department in Parks about developing a series of recreational facilities along what we refer to as the Assi nibo ine Corridor, commencing from the upper reaches of the Assi nib oine at the Ases sippi Park behind the Shellmouth Dam, where we have a considerable amount of development and infrastructure in place, and encouraging travelling visitors, vacationers, and Manitobans to use that route in their vacation plans and along the way there would be the utilization of private facilities.

There are, as the member is aware of, the river corridor parallels major highways, the Trans Canada for a good portion of the route whE!f"e there are adjacent private campground facilities. Wrc have looked at the map and said this is an idea I oppor tunity to create, wha t in the profess ional jargon, is a linear park development, and we look to those natural situations that we have or man-made situations such as the Portage Diversion for full development. We have a natural impoundment of water there.

I am told, and the Honourable Member for Portage Ia Prairie can tell me better than I car: being closer to the scene, that area attracts a considerable amount of visitors. We have automobi e counts of upwards to 200-300 cars on a good Saturday or weekend summer afternoon just using the area now, and we are saying that with a bit cl e n

Monday, 13 April, 1981 planning, with the development of that area as a recreational area, even to the extent of providing an outdoor pool or some swimming facilities in that area along with picnicking and so forth that would lend itself in this concept of a linear park development along the Assiniboine. I don't have in front of me at the moment my parks director.

He was here this afternoon, who could indicate precisely the actual dolla rs that are being set aside in the coming year's estimates, but I know the honourable member will accept my word that that information is available from me or from members of the Department at any time that he wishes to address himself to that. But that's the idea, to use that general area. the impoundment area that is created by the Portage Diversion works, to maximize the opportunity. Right now we have a great deal of casual and visitors to that area. There is nothing really prepared for them. There is no planning involved.

We just think that is a natural point of interest that people would want to come and visit and we think we have the natural opportunity to maximize it. We do this very mindful of the fact that the good citizens of Portage Ia Prairie have of course a very attractive recreational facility on Island Park within the confines of the city of Portage Ia Prairie, and whatever we do there would be done not in competition with the affairs at Island Park but rather with close cooperation.

In fact it's been proven that as you enhance the recreational capacity in an area, both could be complementary to the overall attraction and enjo yment of visitors coming to the Portage Ia Prairie area in general. MR. HYDE: Mr. Chairman, to the Minister, I want to advise him that any Sunda y afternoon that he wishes to come to Portage for a fish catch, I can inform him that we are getting some very prize fish out of that Diversion at the Dam.

One point about the opportunities available to Is land Park, I'm wondering if there is any consideration on your part to channel water into the Crescent Lake from the Assiniboine River so that at some time in the very near future we will have a free flow of fresh water into Crescent Lake and out. The City and the City Fathers are finding ourselves in problems there with the attempts that are being made to pump water from Assiniboine into there.

It's just not working for them and it has been talked about in the past over the years that we could see no reason why we couldn't have water flowing in from the Assiniboine into Crescent Lake and out the other end. Is there any consideration on the part of the Minister on that program? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, we attempt to add ress ourselves to one problem at a time.

The Assiniboine, although it is one of our historic and famous rivers in the province, does not quite have the capacity of the Mississippi and the demands that are being made on the diversion of those waters, as those committee members know who have been present throughout the consideration of th ese Estima tes, are considerable. We have a request for a diversion to the La Salle River for irrigation purposes. There is an ongoing study to divert water into the southern Modern-Winkler area for possible industrial, farm, and irrigation use.

The honourabl e member now raises an equally valid point about a possi ble diversion to Crescent Lake. 2717 I want to remind the honourable member that the city of Portage Ia Prairie had chronic problems with respect to an adequate level and availability of water for their city water supply prior to the building of the Portage Diversion. The building of the Portage Diversion, the resultant impounding of water in the diversion reservoir, has, as I have had the occasion just a few days to discuss with the Mayor of Portage Ia Prairie, considerably eased that problem.

We do not receive complaints any more from the City of Portage Ia Prairie with respect to the capacity and the availability of the water supply which Portage Ia Prairie over the years has always received from the Assiniboine river, so we have resolved that problem. Whether or not future allocations of water from the Assiniboine would allow a diversion to Crescent Lake would be very dependent on how we manage the overall water supply of the Assiniboine.

It's my private and personal point of view and not yet supported by technical studies that it's quite possible that a future dam construct ion, future creation of an additional reservoir capacity on the reaches of the Assiniboine, and I make no secret of it, the possibility of say, a Holland dam and reservoir could enhance and could score and could provide that kind of capacity along the Assiniboine that we could entertain; these and oth er demands for Assi nib oine River water.

Certainly that is the direction I believe, that we should be going in and that's precisely the kind of drought proofing studies that are being undertaken by the Department of Water Resources in that $8.9 million agreement that I mentioned earlier in he Estimates, that was recently concluded with the Federal Government. MR. CHAIRM AN: The Member for Portage Ia Prairie. MR. HYDE: Thank you, Mr Minister, Mr. Chairman. I believe I will continue to im press you for that consideration in the future, but I do have another question I want to put to you.

The A.M. of Portage Ia Prairie, they've had delegations in the past approach, maybe not your Ministry, but the one previous to you, regarding the drainage problems southwest of the A.M. of Portage Ia Prairie. They have requested in the past consideration to allow water to enter the Portage Diversion, to take away that fast run-off in the spring of the year that creates a problem to the north of the Trans Canada Hig hway, out through there.

If you will recall a year ago, in the high water, it washed out one sector of the Trans Canada Highway with the flow of high water, and it is the thoughts of the municipality that if they could get permission to have that work done, it would eliminate a lot of their problems with no ill effects on the actual flow of the Diversion, the purpose of the Diversion. I'm sure, Mr. Minister, that there'll be further delegations approaching you in the future on this. I notice that it's not in your program for this year. I am trusting that you will still be giving it consideration. MR. ENNS: Well, Mr.

Chairman, you know, without indicating government policy, or indeed even specific intention at this particular time, but it would be my direction to the department, and specifically the Department of Water Resources, that we having had the experience and a very valuable - when I say

______________ Nionday, 13 April, 1981 valuable by numbers of millions of dollars worth of protection - that the flood control projects such as the Portage Diversion and the Winn ipeg 1=1oodw ay and the Shellmouth Reservoir have provided the people of Manitoba over the past decade, that does not mean that we should not attempt to refine and to maximize their ope ration.

In deed a recently concluded Water Commission Study of the,se three projects, has made some recommendations in this regard, that is, their actual management to refine the techniques of how, with these works being in place, how can we get some additional benefit frJm them being in place, and if it's possible, without deflection of their primary purpose, which is flood prol ection, if it is possible to effect some additional ad11antages, such as in this instance, providing help to local agricultural drainage problems, then certainly this Ministry will not, you know, shy back from pressing the department to examine those possibilities.

I think I understand what the honourable member is referring to, whether the main Diversion itself has to be used, it doesn't have to be used, but there are ancillary substantial drainage ditches on either side of the Floodway, that perhaps with the incorporation of additional access by means of culvert or two, these problems could be alleviated, and certainly I see no reason why the honourable member shouldn't continue to press for answers to these quesl ions. MR.

HYDE: The argument that is put up by the R.M. on this case, is that the local spring run-e ff is way gone past before the actual use, the primary use of the Diversion take place. I have one more question I want to put to the Minister as well at this opportune time. Tile Edwin Drain, I imagine you are well aware of it. I notice it's not on the program this year.

I approa�hed the departme nt, requesting through - it t as been brought to my attention by local farmers in the area, where the scrubbing of that ditch would b•3 a great asset to get the spring water away faster at the - where it enters the Assiniboine River.

A year ago there was such a high water run-off that it came across on Highway 305 down that Edwin Drain, is what we referred to as the Edwin Drain, thai took out several culverts, I couldn't give you the numbers but however, it took out several culvert�; and it eventually, through the fact that the lower end of the drain was plugged with willows and everyt 1ing else, the water broke out and took off across the farmlands to the north, and this I was hopmg would have been looked after by this time, but apparently we didn't have the dollars and it was put off again.

I am hoping that we can look forward to s•3eing this work completed. MR. ENNS: Well, Mr. Chairman, I'm reluctant to answer any further questions, as long as one Walter Kucharczyk. is in the room, on the gro unds that he may use the answers against me, but de :;pite that concern that I have, I'll indicate to the H•)nourable Memb er for Portage Ia Prairie, that th 3 regular maintenance

schedule or amount of work is not contained in these Capital Estimates that you see for new construction. In fact I've been advised by the Director of Field Operations, Mr. Bill Newton, that we coul::l well be faced with some increased demand, partly because of the amount of soil drifting that has occurred in 2718 certain portions of the province, but generally that is carried on in the regular maintenance appropriation of the department and it would be . . . for the members to look upon the capital requests as being the total amount of money to be expended on drainage works, in any given area or in his area. MR.

HYDE: I could just add that I would think that if we should have a heavy snowfall come and run a heavy run-off in a year from now, that we might have to spend several more thou sands of dol lars to correct the errors we may neglect by not getting this new work completed. MR. CHAIRMAN: I don't know if the committee is aware, but the Quebec election, as I was sent a note, is 86 PQ, 36 Liberals and I don't suppose there's any notion to have the committee rise and have a party as one suggested. The Member for Logan. MR. WILLIAM JENKINS: Mr.

Chairman, I apologize through you to the Minister, I apologize for not being in here earlier on your Estimates, but I believe that one of your items is Park Planning. Is that correct, through you, Mr. Chairman, to the Minister? MR. ENNS: That is correct. MR. JENKINS: I wonder if the Minister could bring the committee up to date on the proposed park planning that I believe is a joint Federal-Provincial project on the extension of a park along the Red River up to the Netley Marshes, and where does the program and the plan stand at this time, because we heard about it one or two years ago?

It seems now that there seems to be nothing happening. I don't know if this is the Minister I should be addressing the question to. If it is not, then he can correct me. Is there anything happening other than what we heard, I believe when the former Member for Fort Rouge was elected, I think, to the Federal House and became the Minister, that there was some great big announc ement at that time of a joint Provincial­ Federal project, or some study of making this park along the Red River, including the River Road, which I understand still is in fairly bad shape.

Is the Minister able to bring the committee up to date on any plans that are in the process or is the thing sort of dormant now? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, while the Parks Division of the Department of Natural Resources will have substantial involvement with any future development in this regard, I should indicate to the honourable member that in essence the project that he speaks of, kno wn as the ARC Park Development Program is essentially the responsibility of the Department of Urban Affairs.

Major components of it, such as the development of the CNR East Yards and some of the properties extending northward along the Red to the CPR Yards, a considerable amount of acquisition of riverbank land assembl y has taken pla ce. I am advis ed that under the terms of that master agreement, which involves the eventual development of suitable park, again, in this same concept that I have spoke about, that the department is taking with respect to linear development of a corridor park on the Assiniboine.

Monday, 13 April, 1981 In this case, we have the master agreement with the Federal Government to develop this historic Red River route right through to the Netley Marshes, that the master agreement calls for a Public Advisory Committee to hold public hearings. These hearings have been held and I am advis ed that recommendations resu lting from th ese public hearings are in the process of drifing upward to the two Ministers involved. I must stress the Federal Government is very much involved; Parks Canada is a major component of the plans.

That, together with the hope for conclusion of some federal, provincial and city program with respect to the inner core initiatives program that has been referred to in the city, would see this development with respect to the park component of it take place. I am not in a position, nor are my advisors in a position to do much more than indicate in these general terms the position of that program. We do not have the funds allo cated for th at in the Department of Natural Resources' Estimates as such.

They are and will be housed in the Department of Urba n Affairs in the Federal Department, Parks Canada Esti mates, and hing e to some very substantial degree on the successful conclusion of an inner city core initiative program that is in the stage of development. MR. JENKINS : I thank the Minister for that information.

I can see the parts of the river that are within the environs of Unic ity coming under the Department of Urban Affairs but can the Minister explain just how the Department of Urban Affairs would be involv ed in th e project beyond the Perimeter High way, because that is basically the environs of the City of Winnip eg? Does his department have no input into the proposal that extends beyond the city?

That is the portion that I would imagine the Minister and his department should be actively engaged in because, after all, I quite realize there are three levels of government, but there also could be some municipalities involved. I believe St. Andrews and St. Clements are two of the municipalities that are on either side of that river, that extend beyond the boundaries of the City of Winnipeg.

I would have thought that the Minister's department - the Minister is the Minister of Natural Resources and this is a natural resource of the Province of Manitoba - that his department would be having some input into the discussions that are taking place outside of the boundaries of the City of Winnipeg. MR. ENNS : Mr. Chairman, I thought I had made it reasonably clear that the department intends to play its full role in the development of the projected developments along the Red River.

Ho wever, from the outset, it was very clear tha t the ma jor components of the program lay within the City of Winnipeg, the Greater City of Winnipeg, and even those projects further down the river to the Netley Marshes have a very heavy municipal involvement and require very clos e co-operat ion with the municipal planning authorities. In most instances, we are dealing with the dedication of currently privately­ held lands that would have to - or lands that are in a semi-public domain, historic lands. I refer to the sites along the river, St. Andr ews Church.

The proposals all have to be approved by the planning 2719 authorities, Selkirk District Planning Authority, and as such, the decision was made that with the heavy involvement of municipal concerns, the major component of it being involved with the City of Winni peg, that the Minister of Municipal Affairs essentially be the -( Interjection)- Urban Affairs. At that time, it was both, by the way, when the designation was made of Mr. Mercier to be the co­ ordinating Minister, but our Deputy Minister sits on that committee.

The involvement of the Department of Natural Resources and certainly the calling upon expertise and development management of anything to do with parks will weigh heavily on this department. We are not at that stage.

At this stage the stage is essentially in ironing the planning, zoning problems, acquistion, assembly of land, making the necessary arrangements of the transfer of such private properties such as the CNR Yards to the city and the various levels of go vernment that are involved; to then work them in with the amounts that the Federal Government will be responsible for; and our building various interpretative centres and other facilities along the historic forks, the Assiniboine River and the Red.

At this point the mechanical organization process is what's being put into place and that is being ess entially chann elled through Mr. Me rcier's Department of Urban Affairs in collaboration with the City of Winnip eg and/or other municipalities including rural municipalities down the river and the Federal Government represented by Parks Canada. MR. JENKINS : I thank the Minister for that answer then.

From what I understand, that the co-ordinating Minister is the Minister of Urban Affairs with input from the Minister's Department and also from the Department of Municipal Affairs, because I think that they would be involv ed too because of land acquisition. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, just by demonstration of the multi-d isciplines that are involved there, the Department of Highways becomes involved, although they are long way removed from Parks, but because of that particular project the honourable member mentions, River Road, becomes a concern to the Department of Highways and so the various different jurisidictions of government will be called in to lend their assistance to ho pefu lly a very worthwh ile development there.

It's one of these projects that one would be foolish to put deadline dates on, but there is a distinct possibility that a decade from now we might be very proud of some of the actions that we have undertaken with respect to the development of this area. MR. JENKINS : Well again, I thank the Minister, and I certainly think it is a worthwhile project. One has only to go to Ontario and go along the Canadian side of the Niagara River and see the beautiful park that is alongside it and then drive across to Niagara Falls in the United States and drive along their side of the river and see what a difference there is.

I think that it's a worthwhile project and I look forward with great anticipation that we don't get bogged down into such long discussions that I will still be around to be able to enjoy some of the scenic beauty that is along the historic Red River. MR. ENNS : Fortunately, Mr. Chairman, in this instance we own both sides of the river.

_____ __________ Mo nday, 13 April, 1981 MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (a)( 1) - The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: Mr. Adam, we can go on the Minister's Salary and come back to clean up some of the odds and ends that we perhaps didn't get all the questions on. Last week we talked about hunting privileges on Crown lands and the possibility of a change in policy to allow the posting of such lands that are under lease, and I am wondering if we are to proceed in that direction, I see no problem with posting of some of these lands during the summer months when there is cattle and livestock grazing on certain lands.

There are some lands that are not grazed, they're used for hay production and they don't put livestock on those particular haylands. So it would seem to me that if we are going to move into a different area here and have leasees prevent people from going on these lands, it seems to me that we would have to look at these particular situations where land is not used for grazing, that those lands should not really he closed to people travelling on them.

Where there are cattle or livestock grazing, it seems to me that during the summer months there are people travelling all over the place, who are causing some problems for livestock proclucers. It seems to me that after the grazing season i� over the hunting season starts in November, I believe· it is, the deer season opens, and it seems to me that by then the cattle are all out of pasture anyway, so then it seems to me that during the hunting season it should be wide open all over the place. There should not be any restrictions as far as hunting is concem�d during a regular hunting season.

Now I had a call last night, and I wasn 't able to respond to it, but I did get a hold of the £ entlemen this morning. He called me over the weekend and I wasn't able to get back to him until this morning, and he has had problems. His problems are that there is nightlighting, there's people tra ,-elling in there. They want to get access to shorelines. They want to go in there and camp. He has cattle grazing in there and he is having a lot of problems.

He advises me that - I'm not sure wl1ether he said it was last year or the year before but I believe it was last year - he lost four cattle bncause of people going in there. While he has not been able to find any remains of any cattle that were slaughtered out of season, he padlocked his land last year or perhaps the year before.

He put padlod s on the gates and he had no more problems after that, but there were reports that were sent ir, people complained that they can't travel through, :;o he was advised that he if he did not remove his padlocks on his gates that he would be losing his privileges of leasing these lands. So he removed the padlocks and I guess that's when he lost the four head of cattle. In those areas there are very little roads. There is no access. You just travel all over the plac•3 and you try and get through the best you can. Anyway the Crown lands have sold him some land th :�t he had been leasing.

He now has control to the access to about, I don't know how many acres, but I would say about six or seven miles of Crown land th 3t he now controls because he has the private land; that's the only access. You have got to go over his private land to get into that area; there's no other way to get in there. I want to know - I would like to ask the Minister now, that if he closes off his own private land, what happens to all this Crown land that's on the other side? There's no way to get in there.

It's very primitive - I'm sure the Minister knows what kind of country I am talking about and what kind of roads I'm talking about, it's prairie roads that yqu get through when it's dry and if it's wet you don't go and that's the situation. He has asked me my advice on what I should advise him to do. Should he lock the gates on his own private land and prevent everybody from going through?

I advised him that he should perhaps, as a matter of courtesy at least, get in touch with Northern Affairs because that area comes under Northern Affairs and possibly they may want to make other road access to get in beyond, to go around private land.

So we have some problems to address ourselves to, both on the hunting thing, people travelling - he said there's a lot nightlighting going on in there, a lot of people going in out of season and I think there should be - I'm not sure, if we have added more conservation officers to the staff up in that area or not, but certainly there's no reason why people should be able to go in there and have almost a free hand to go in nightlighting or travelling in those areas and hunting out of season. I point out a problem to the Minister that will probably develop.

He is going to have, I suppose, some people at his doorstep if this fellow locks or closes off his private land to traffic. North of there - this is in the Sandy Point area - I don't know if you know where it is but I say to you that there are some of the most beautiful beaches that you will ever find, which will tie in with this proposal that we are talking about. Sandy Point, I remember that from the time I was this high and it's one of the nicest beaches that you'll find anywhere. So that area will be out-of-bounds for anybody who wants to go to those beaches if this party decides to close off his land.

Of course, the Department of Northern Affairs will have to come up with a few dolla rs, or perhaps more than a few dolla rs, to have a road access to go through there to the north. During last week we talked about the problems and I saw the Minister pull out the two photographs that I handed over to him. I got a call over the weekend as well, Saturday at midnight. I wanted to be sure th at I would tell you what time this gentleman called.

Last week we had some laughter coming from members here and I think we ended on a frivolous note when we were talking about the pictures there, the photograph of this dead animal, but I want to tell you that the man who lost the animal phoned me at midnight Saturday to find out what the Minister was doing, whether he was going to be able to compensate this farmer for the loss of his animal. When somebody phones you at twelve o'clock, I want you to know that he must have some concerns.

I would like to get an undertaking from the Minister, if he could at least advise me when we will have a reply for this gentleman because this has been going on since last October, I think, or whenever the hunting season was; I don't know when the hunting season was on. But I would sure like to know when the Minister will - how long it is going to be before we can tell this gentlemen, yes, you are 2720

Monday, 13 April, 1981 going to get compensated, or no, you are not going to get compensated. 1 assure you, sir, that if he do es no t get compensation, I am going to recommend that he go to the Om budsman because that is the next step that I will advise him the route to proceed. So much for the Crown lands. 1 want to point out to the Minister also that, looking at the list of Crown lands that have been sold, I am wondering what programs the Minister is going to come out with now for drainage.

I know that we haven't talked to the Minister of Highways yet on how many dollars or how much finances he is going to have to come up with to service all these lands now that all these lands have been sold, but I expect that we shall certainly receive a lot of requests for drainage now that these lands are privately-owned and they are paying taxes on them and they will want to have the services that are provided to other people in other areas.

As you see the map, as we look at the programs, we see that the agricultural lands require drainage and I'm not opposed to it because I believe that we will have to expand our agriculture base. We will have to provide more drainage to make more lands available for agriculture, not just for grazing and pasturing and so on.

We will have to improve these lands and I assure you that if we spend money on drainage we will in the long term benefit the Province of Manitoba. 1 mentioned also before the adjournment, before we left the Acquisition, I was asking the Minister about residential property and, that is, whether or not that took precedence over agricultural use. That was another point. I hope that the Minister is marking this down and that he can give me responses. I am not stopping to allo w him to respond; I am throwing the whole issue at him and I hope that he is making notes and will respond to my questions.

I also want to ask the Minister about the appraisal of the sale of Crown lands. I will stop there and allow the Minister to respond to those points that I brought to his attention because I'm sure he will forget some of them and after I have had a very satisfactory response to those items that I have given him, then we will continue on with other things that I have on my odds and ends list. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, the one area that I won't discuss with the Honourable Member for Ste. Rose is the many interesting phone calls I get on a Saturday night, sometimes even after midnight.

Let me indicate to the honourable member that first of all, dealing with ·the problem of hunting on Crown land, he should be aware that night-lighting is illegal at any time on occupied Crown land so that any regula tion, whether the land is poste d, or whether it is on private land or Crown land, persons that engage in that activity are breaking the laws, the regulations of this province.

I should further indicate to him that although the present agricultural lease permits hunting on that lease, authority is provided in the Act, under called­ upon circumstances, to enable an owner, a rancher of Crown land, to prohibit hunting on his lands.

We look upon them as individual situations and I invite the honourable member to avail himself, to call upon the officers in his area, if he has a situation, ask the 2721 conservation officer, the wildlife people to visit the rancher, the farmer in question, and I simply indicate to him that the authority is there in the Act, that contrary to the general provisions of the agricultural lease, which does not permit posting of Crown lands or prohibiting of hunting on Crown lands, if a case can be made because of a situation, because of cattle being present in the pasture, or because of a history of some bad experience, as the honourable member indicates, that under the existing statute he can prevail upon the department to in effect prohibit hunting, in addition to his private lands, but also on Crown land.

We have found that up to date it worked reasonably well. We have not received any large number of requests or complaints in this regard. I would first of all invite the honourable member to avail himself of the services of the department's staff in this regard. Mr.

Chairman, with respect to the blocking in of Crown lands by virtue of holdings of private land, that is the case, although I must indicate to the honourable member if he refers to one specific instance where several miles of property are being locked in in such a manner, it is highly likely that a road all owance, even though it is not there in physical fact, exists on the surveys and somebody pressing the point could find access to those locked­ in lands by virtue of that road allowance that is provided within every mile of surveyed land.

I appreciate, to the honourable member, that if we are talkin g about trails or unimpr oved land conditions, that may be well be a theoretical answer, but I have known instances, and the honourable member probably kn ows instances where a situation like this has arrived, a natural trail crossing over private lands has been blocked off to general use and either the LGD or the mun icipality or the individual have exercised their right to bulldoze in a trail on the road allowance between two privately­ owned quarters and found access that way. Mr.

Chairman, in terms of the further question that he asked about the late short-horned roan heifer that met her demise one spring - it's hard to say from the pictures, Mr. Deputy Minister, whether that happened in the spring or the fall, fall possibly, from the depth of snow we've had . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order.

The Minister has the information from the RCM P and I am sure that they have advised him that the cow was shot during hunting season and if he is not satisfied, I believe I have a copy here that I received from the RCMP where they indicate that the cow was shot during the hunting season and they could not determine how she had died. Well, they know how she died but they don't know whether she died legally or illegally.

So to say that she may have died in another season, not during the hunting season, I think the Minister should reflect on what he is putting into the record because I think the RCMP have decided that she was shot. She was found during the hunting season and she had been de ad approximately six days, during the hunting season. MR. ENNS: I thank the honourable member for refreshing my memory. He did pl ace all that

_ _ _ __ _ _____ _ _ ___:_:_:M onday, 13 April, 1981 information on record and of course that is available to the department I am advised by the department that the investigation, the file has not been closed. The honourable member to some extent < nswered his own question. One of the difficulties that the department is faced with, if the farmer mvolved whose animal it is, and the RCM P involved, wh� were on the spot to examine the animal, have difficulty in determing the cause of deal 1, that's precisely the difficulty that the department has.

However, the member has brought thi:; to the attention of the department, as is his right through this committee, and I have asked the Department to take another hard look at it. I think, under�tandably so, the Department has little recourse in the first instance, not to act on the case when there is lacking conclusive evidence of the way the animal died. However, the Department is taking H second look at the file and I would ask him to indicate to his caller, the owner of the animal, that from a departmental point of view we have not cl osed the file on the situation .

What it possibly dl)es is it underlines a less than satisfactory situa·:ion that exists today, and by the way, has existed f,>r all the years that the honourable member was a mE!mber on the government side. It isn't a new poliCl' by this government that is preventing this farmer from getting compensation, it is a policy that ha�; been in place and existent for a goodly number of years that we are operating under and as such we will take a hard look at it again. MR. ADAM: Mr. Chairman, the Minister indicated that the RCMP were not able to determine lhe cause of death.

I think that was an erroneous !;tatement because there is no doubt that the cow c ied by a bullet and, Mr. Chairman, that's how she died. She died because she was shot so there's no problem there as to knowing how she died. She didn't die of a heart attack; she died from being shot The only thing is they can't determine whether she was shot at the front of the head or from the hack . - (Interjection)- Well, there's a hole there; there is supposed to be a hole. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, that still doesn 't resolve the whole problem, whether she was shot in the front of the head or from the back of the head The Act reads that we can pay compensation if an animal is shot accidentally during hunting season. If she is shot as a result of illegal activity, such as night­ lighting, the act doesn 't cover for compensation under those circumstances or even deliberate killing of the animal. It then becomes, in effect, a criminal act for which a different set of procE!dur es is outlined. But I don't want to make li gl1t of the matter.

It's a matter of some $800 or $90(1 worth of property of an individual involved and it points out an area that gives rise to considerable cJ ncern to the department, as to whether or not we can make some changes to the law, that for inst mce that during hunting season, is that fine definition too difficult to make, you know, whether it's accidental or illegal or should we indeed consider expanding the program to cover compensation for animals that are shot, period, in the hunting season? You kr ow, that's a bigger and greater question but in defence of the department, their hands are somewhat straJped.

Of one thing there can be no doubt, the animal was shot, she met a cruel and violent deatt . MR. ADAM: Mr. Chairman, I wanted to make that very clear, because the animal died by shooting and the Minister said in his remarks, he mentioned that they couldn't determine how she died.

Wel l, you know, I think they concluded that she had been shot and the fact that the RCMP report states that the cow was shot during the hunting season, I say to you in a court of law, and I'm not a lawyer, but in a court of law that is sufficient that she was shot in the daytime, because if she had been shot at night it would have been shot out of season. MR. ENNS: We ll, Mr. Chairman, again, I have enga ged in this dis cussion with the honour able member before. There is, I submit, if we were making this case in a court of law, a great difference as to how she was shot.

If she was shot at high noon, at daytime, between the eyes, one could hardly say that that was an accidental shooting. It could have been deliberate van dalism, deli berate killing on the part of somebody, by a passing stranger, as compared to illegal. Illegal hunting activity at nighttime, shot from the back or from the front where just the glistening, illuminous eyes of the animal glared into the beam of the spotlight and pow, down she went, you see, it's a serious situation. MR. ADAM: Mr.

Chairman, I was just passing that the letter from the RCMP contained a statement that the animal had been shot during the hunting season, so I hope that the Minister - I'm pleased that they still haven't closed the file on this - but I hope that it will not drag on too long, surely. I don't know what the Minister is attempting, what the department - what more information do they have to have to come to a decision? I would ask the Minister, then, to address himself to the other questions that I posed to him. MR.

ENNS: I think the honou rable member is referring to the priorities pla ced to the sale of residential Crown land lots, as compared to . . . MR. ADAM: That was one of the questions, yes. MR. ENNS: No, the de partment has, without question, placed a priority in the sale of agricultural lease lands. We are only now gett ing into the position of preparing the policy and indeed moving towards the sale of those recreational cottage lots that lie outside of the provincial parks system, of which there are some 1, 15 0 as compared to the total number available of 6,000. MR.

ADAM: Those lots that we have that are available for sale are not included in the list that he presented to me? MR. ENNS: No, Mr. Chairman, my advice is that they are not included in that listing that I provided to the honourable member this afternoon, but again there is no difficulty in making those available to him. I'm advised that it will take several weeks, again, to run the computer systems through and provide that kind of information to him. MR. ADAM: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I asked as well, how do you arrive at an appraisal value of the Crow ri 2722

Monday, 13 April, 1981 lands that you're selling, or propose to sell, or that people apply to purchase, whichever way you want to put the question? Do you use the Land Acquisiton Branch to make the appraisals or how is that . . . MR. EN NS: Mr. Chairman, I'm advis ed it's a combination of using government appraisal people from the Land Acquisition group, as well as using qualified outside appraisers to arrive at what we believe to be a fair market value for the properties in question.

The same procedure essentially that is applied to putting appraisal values on other Crown lands, whether they be from various different departments, Crown lands, surplus government lands, surplus government lands of the Department of Highways, we use the same appraisal techniques to establish fair market value. MR. ADAM: 1 mean, as far as I know, the Highways Department would use the Land Acquisition Branch to determine the value of lands in the area and that's how they come to a conclusion. But what I'm asking the Minister now, you're selling land to private, to lessees.

You're giving some people a preference to own land and how do you make that appraisal; how is that appraisal made? Do you phone or do you get in touch with the Land Acquisition Branch and say someone has made an application to buy a certain parcel of land, a certain quarter

section of land or maybe several quarter sections of land, will you go in and appraise this land so that we can advise this party, how much he's going to have to pay for it. Because ob viously th ere are different prices throughout the list. You can find some from $1 5,000 down to $1 00.00. I see where we sold the CNR a parcel of land for $10 0.00. I don't know how much land but -(I nterjection)- Well, it's still higher. You know, I notice that the former Minister of Natural Resources gave a half a

section to the CPR in 19 79 but because it was a Crown - because the CNR is Crown ownership and as the taxpayer is going to have to pay for it, they charged $1 00.00. I would like to ask the Minister now if it is the proper way to proceed of selling land? Where is the expertise in the department outside of the Land Acquisition Branch? Where is the expertise? Do you get an outside appraiser, a private individual, a private company that goes out and appraises land? Or do you just call somebody who's good at it in the department and maybe, I'd like to know if that's the way to run a government?

I'm sure the Minister wouldn't run his farm like that. Nobody would operate like that and I would like to know how it's done because I'm not satisfied with the Minister's answer on how the appraisals are arrived at? MR. ENNS : Mr. Chairman, appr aisal of land prop erties for disposal by any go vernment department are handled in precisely the same way. We use qualified appraisers. I remind the honourable member that while it's not a science, there is such a body as the Appraisal Institute of Manitoba. It has certain conditions that qualify people as being expert in this field .

We use continuously go vernment appraisers from Land Acquisition to establish these market values for us. We have and that is no departure from the norm under workload pressure. One of the complaints that the department has 2723 received in this area is our ability to process claims with some despatch and we have in our effort to meet this demand also sought the services of outside appraisers to help us with the business of appraising land. Now, in both instances, we're talking ab out qualified appraisers to develop these market values. The fact that they fluctuate, Mr.

Chairman, I would hope to unde rstand, hope to believe, want to believe that the honourable member unde rstands that land fluctua tes widely in terms of its value in the marketp lace and the appraisals reflect th ose fluctuations. MR. ADAM: I wonder if the Minister could give us an idea how much of the land has been sold by tender, as opposed to this appraisal and we'll put a value on it and that's what you're going to pay. Have we auctioned any off? MR. ENNS: No, Mr. Chairman. This land is not sold by tender.

It is a very deliberate government policy to make this land available to the lessor of records as of June 19 77 and he is given without any coercion the opportunity to (

a) to either continue the lease, and I suspect many, mi my will wish to continue the leasing arrangements that they are currently under. They have, as the honourable member will be aware of, in many instances a lifetime lease with, I believe, some assignment rights to immediate members of the family if the farm operation continues. I would have to check that. It seems to me my recollection that there is some poli cy in that regard , but again this is being administered by the Department of Agriculture.

But, the procedure is, and the member is aware of it, a fair market appraisal is put on the property in question and upon application, not by direction from the government, but only upon application is this land then made available for sale providing it meets the various conditions that various jurisdictions within government place on it prior to making it available for sale, but it is not being tendered to the highest bidder for instance; that's why we go through the procedure of establishing a fair market value through the use of go vernment and/or other appraisers. MR.

ADAM: I believe the policy is, correct me, Mr. Chairman, if I'm wrong, is that a leasee has to have leased a particular parcel of land for three years before? MR. ENNS: No, he has to be currently, although, possible changes are being considered at this time but as of now, as of today, as we consider these Estimates, he has to be the lessee of record as of June 19 77, which in effect is five years or four years. MR. ADAM: Any person who would have acquired a lease after Ju ne of 19 77 would no t qu alify to purchase that land? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, that is correct, but I really ask the honourable member to direct these questions to the Minister of Agricultur e who is responsible for the administration of the agricultural leases in this province and who obv iously has escaped this kind of scrutiny when his Estimates

Monday, 13 April, 1981 were under consideration that I'm now un dergoing and Mr. Chairman, I'm beginning to wilt under the pressure, the sustained pressure that the Hono urable Member from St. Rose is putting on me. A man can only take such much, Mr. Chairman. MR. ADAM: Mr. Chairman, I believe that I nay have stand to be corrected on this, but it .vas our impression during the Agricultural Estimates that one must of had the lease for at least three years before he could qualify to purchase.

The Minister is there, you know, if he wants to come to your a:;sistance and I know you don't need his assistance, but if he would like to clarify that, I think he wo uld be assisting the Committee because these que:;tions - once I get a reply, I will tell you why I'm asking you these questions. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Agriculture maybe could assist us. HON. JAMES E. DOWNEY (Arthur): I think, Mr.

Chairman, we all have to realize that the opportunity to question the different Estimates are when those Estimates are before the Committee stage First of all, I don't mind coming to the rescue of the Honour able Minister of Natural Resources seeing that he's in such a wilted position, condition, I'm sorry. What the Minister has indicated as far as allowing for sale land that has been leased prior to June of 19 77 is quite correct, and I don't know y, here the Honourable Member for Ste. Rose would indicate that if a lease has been held for three years that that would make it eligible.

The Minister has indicated that land that has been leased prior to JunE! of 19 77 is land that is being made available for sale, land that's on a long term agricultural lease. MR. ADAM: Yes, because I had a call over the weekend from an individual who was wanting to purchase land and he had made his applications and he did lease the land in 19 77, but I suppose after June, if that is in fact the date, the deadlinE!. He had leased it since 19 77, perhaps in the Fall I'm not sure, we will have to determine that further.

Ho wever, he was rejected on the ground:; that he had not held his lease long enough and for him it's going on four or five years, four years anyway, and, of course, he was quite disappointed and wanted to know really what the policy was and I, perhaps, as I said before, I stand to be corrected but I understood that you had to be at least leasing the land for at least three years, but maybe it's three years prior to 19 77, I don't know. MR. DOWNEY: Thank you, Sir. Mr. Chairman, what the member is ind icating is that the individual applied to purchase land, applied after JunE! of 19 77.

I guess the way in which I'd like to am.wer it is number ( 1 ), under the New Democratic Party when they were in office there was no opportunity to buy any land at all; in fact, there policy was reversed. At this particular point, the reason for the time of June of 19 77 was to stop individuals who may want to lease land just for speculation purposes, but the intent of the policy was to sell the land to those people who were truly farmers and give them a long term security by allowing them to buy their and. 2724 Now, Mr.

Chairman, I think it's fair to indicate and I know the Minister of Natural Resources and I have had some discussions about reviewing that particular time to now consider changing that particular date so that people who have leased land since June of 19 77, that they now would be able to participate in a policy, that I think is pretty much supported by the agricultural community, particularly those who want to buy the leased land that they've been farming for many years. MR. ADAM: I thank the assistance that the Minister of Agriculture has given us.

It seems logical that if your going to have that policy of selling land that certainly, if we're going to discriminate, you know, it seems that some people are being discriminated against by the way is operating now, so it has to be reviewed. It'll have to be reviewed because there's a problem there, I can see it. This individual was quite upset. He got a letter back: "I'm sorry sir," you know, he's had his land since 1977, that's a long time on it, that's four years.

He's in permanently, you know, he's operating there and, you know, he says, "How long do I - they say I had to have it prior to 19 77?" So, I'll have to find out exactly the dates that . . . MR. ENNS: I'll tell you one thing for sure. If he votes New Democrat next time, he'll have no chance of buying it, eh? MR. ADAM: The Minister is speculating and it's his right to do so. He has his own opinions, and whether he makes it public or he doesn't it certainly bother me at all. I believe, Mr. Chairman, that we have, I think, it's Crown land north of Ashville. I believe we have a property there of X number of acres.

I presume that it's known as the Crocus Hill. Now, is the Minister aware that we have a piece of property north of Ashville known as Crocus Hill? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I want to place on the record that I'm not aware of Crocus Hill north of Ashern. Mr. Chairman, I really ask the Honourable Member for Ste. Rose, who has been a diligent member of this Committee, to consider whether or not, you know, as important as many of these fairly localized situations are, whether or not they are germane to the consideration of this Committee at this time.

I invite him to avail himself to my office for specific answers to any of these questions. I know that members of staff, doors are very open to him for specific an swers to th ese kind of de tailed questions, but, I think, Mr. Chairman, what we're dealing here with is a broad policy questions of the department under my Ministry and would ask him to confine himself to those kind of issues. MR. ADAM: Mr.

Chairman, I believe I have assisted the Minister; I brought him a lot of good advice this evening, and the reason why I'm raising this problem is because I believe that this is Crown property and I believe that people are taking gravel in there and I don't know how they should be taking gravel out of that. I think it's a historic site; I believe it's a historic site. I went by there a week ago Sunda y and it appeared to me as though there was some fresh gravel bei ng pull ed out of there by some

Monday, 13 April, 1981 individuals. (Interjection)- I am trying - it's a historic site. MR. CHA IRMAN : One speaker at a time in committee. MR. ADAM: This is a historic site in the Province of Manitoba and I am sure we would want to preserve it as such. I feel that it is an important question. If the Minister feels that it is not - I believe now that he knows the reason why I raised the question, I think he will agree that it is ... MR. ENNS : I thank the honourable member because if there is one thing I won,t stand for, it is people taking gravel from me unb eknownst to me or without permits.

I will put a short stop to that. Gentlemen, find Crocus Hill. MR. ADAM: It is north of Ashville somewhere. It's along No. 10. Mr. Chairman, I didn't get off to make an on-site inspection but it appeared to me as though someone had disturbed that. The only other question that the Minister didn't respond - I have a few more questions but there is only one more that he didn't respond to - is there a policy - now that we have a lot of Crown lands are we going to service that land and provide drainage to these people so that they can have the maximum utility or maximum productivity out of those lands? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, I would have to remind the honourable member that any of the lands in question are sold with prior approval from the local municipality, in the first instance, then of course many other approvals from other departments, such as the Department of Highways, who may have gravel interests; the Department of Wildli fe, who have ongoing wildlife concerns; the Department of Water Resources, who are concerned about selling lands that are subject to flooding, and the honourable members have complained to me in this committee about the number of rejections. These are the reasons why lands are rejected for sale.

The municipalities, for ins tance, the local governments are responsible for 15 percent of the rejections of Crown land sales, that is, land that have been applied for, for sale, and for good reasons. The local municipality, for precisely the concerns that the Honourable Member for Ste. Rose brings to our attention, place an objection to the sale of that Crown land because they perceive uncalled for potential municipal costs or other features of that particular piece of property that, in their judgment, they deem should not be sold. Now, that's a general statement.

There is no question in my mind, though, that with the sale and the expansion of the agricultural base, that a natural expansion of infrastructure will occur.

We are hopeful that the kind of screening process that these lands have to go through, that we won't repeat history by sel ling those kinds of lands upon whic h future infrastructure improvements have little or very little economic base, that is, that the kind of drainage requirements or kind of other developments that would have to take place far outweigh the economic gains to the economy through their development for agricultural purposes. 1 would hope and I would expect that there will be an expansion of the services required as the agricultural base in the province grows and as these demands grow.

I just hope that we can walk that fine balancing line where we do not make obviously foolish mistakes in selling farmlands that encourage people into a hopeless or no return situation and pla ce municipal ities into facing costly future expenditures for meeting their responsibilities and, of course, like wise to the go vernment agenci es themselves. MR.

AD AM: The Minister verifies one of the problems that we brought to the attention of the government when they entered into this policy and the Minister just answered our question and verified it when he says that the municipalities have rejected a lot of land just on that. We had brought that to the attention, forcefully, I believe, to the government that those were problems that would arise out of this policy and there is an example.

The thing is that once you have sold some land to someone, that individual, rightfully so, I believe, says, well, now if I could only get rid of that pothole there, look how much mone y I could get out of that and how productive that would be if I could have a drainage ditch over there. That is the problem that I am bringing; we brought it before and we bring it again.

While some of the municipalities were anxious that land be sold so that they could start getting more taxes on it for local improvement, maybe you have to be careful that it doesn't go beyond reason and then it becomes a burden to them rather than a benefit. On the wildlife, has there been much land made available for wildlife purposes now? Have there been more areas designated as wildlife ... MR. ENNS : Mr.

Chairman, members of the committee are aware that a very substantial amount of land has over the years, over the decades, it can be said, been set side for wildlife purposes, set aside in various categories of game management areas, wildlife management areas. I don't have the precise number of acres available to me but we know that it is substantial. The department has been engaged in the last little while in doing an overall review of the potential, the type of strategy that is fitting for the Province of Manitoba with respect to the management of these lands.

There has been no new acquisition of Crown lands or private lands for wildlife purposes.

I can indicate to the honourable member and to other members of the committee that wildlife interests have been responsible for some 6 percent of the rejection of application for Crown land sales because of the concerns that the department has that these lands should not be sold to the private sector because of their importance to the maintenance and enhancement of wildlife and wildlife habitat, but there has been no aggressive or active program of acquisition of lands for wildlife purposes undertaken during the course of the past year. MR.

ADAM: I understand that there has recently been some land made available in the southeast area for wildlife. I don't have any specifics to bring to the Minister's attention but I was advised that the Member for Emerson was promising or making land available to wildlife groups in his area. I tell you, Mr. 2725

Monday, 13 April, 1981 ---------------------------------- Minister. I don't have too many specifications. So I would just - and it's very legitimate if there is a wildlife project going on, fine and dandy - I am just asking. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, for my clarification, let's understand. is the Member for Emerson promising land to wildlife ... MR. ADAM: Well, I'm not sure. Maybe he could clarify it. If he denies it, we'll let it rest. MR. CHA IRMAN: The Ho nourable Memb er for Rupertsland. MR. BOSTROM: Mr.

Chairman, I hav•3 a few questions that arise from some of the information that has been passed out by the Minister during the Estimates process.

One area is the Wild life Management are 3 for the Cape Churchill area and I note that in the preliminary management plan. which I recognize is a draft only, it is one which states as the general goals c f wildlife management, there are three main goals outlined here: the cons ervation of all wild life, which is certainly one we agree with; the preser\'ation or enhancement of the scenic quality of this area of Manitoba, which is quite a motherhood statement and one certainly we agree with; the expansion of scientific and recreational use of the area, and there is no argument there. However, Mr.

Chairrr an, what is ob vious by its abs ence from the oiJjectives outlined here is any mention about the continuing traditional use in that area, and I note within the document that there are a number of trapline zones which fall within the Churchill Wildlife Management Area. In fact, the whole area is made up of trapline zones from three different areas. One is from the Churchill

section itself; a big

section in the middle is the Limestone section, and a small area at the bottom relates to the Shamattawa area. I am wondering. Mr. Chairman, what the policy of the government is with respect to this Jarticular wildlife management area. Is it intended that the traditional uses in the area of trapping an•j hunting for food will be disallowed? I think that i�; why we brought up at the outset that there sl10uld be consultation with local people.

I note they have an advisory council from the Town of Churchill but I am wondering if these concerns have been brought up and if they are being addressed in the discussions that are taking place, proposing to be taking place, and what the response of the government will be for the proposal by local people that there be c:ontinuing use in the area of resource use and tl1at some trapping and hunting be allowed. 1 mention that because I think that wildli fe management areas have tended to get a l>ad name in the Province of Manitoba, not only wit h hunters and trappers, but with farmers.

I note thH Minister says that he is not allowing any, or hasn't proposed any more wildlife areas within the privat �ly-owned land area of Manitoba and I know from my experience that the objection to wildlife management generally has been because the depart ment has looked upon them very jealously and wanted to guard them against any use and if it wa:; farmers, they didn't want them to use them for haying and they didn't want them to use them for grazing and resisted any kind of encroachment on the area at all. So it became rather a negative thing in the farming areas.

There is some danger that the same thing may apply in this area. I know some of the preliminary discussions that went into estab lishing this area as a wildli fe management area. It was originally proposed that this area be named a park and the people In the area objected strenuously to a park, so I think the compromise was that the Department of Natural Resources proposed, well, why not have a wildlife management area because a wildlife management area is not quite as restrictive as a park - it's not a four-letter word for one thing - and secondly, it allows for some multiple use.

It sort of tended to allay some of the fears of local people up there who were afraid that a park would be set up and that all that area would be just taken aside and there would be no use in the area, no further use of the general area for the public and particularly those who make a living from the area. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, I find myself again wanting to agree with the honourable member's generalizations about some of the concerns that the general public expresses with respect to the development of wildlife management areas, although I hasten to point out that the Department is and has in the past numb er of years actively developed programs that bring in a multi-use concept to the wildlife management areas. We encourage forage production in various wildlife management areas where applicable. We allow and enable farmers and ranchers to take the first cut of alfalfa off.

We ask them to leave the second cut as enhancement to help wildlife concerns better over winter the season, and certainly in the specific area, that is the Churchill Wildlife Management Area that the honourable member raised a particular question about, that he has report about, let me indicate to him that it Is very much a preliminary report. We would have every intention of allowing existing utilization of wild life resources to continue, specifically such programs as the registered traplines. We work very closely through our Fur Development Program in this area.

I am advised, and I believe, the department has. accepting, if you will, and I for one accept the honourable member, who as a former Minister, I might say, was actively and aggr essively involv ed in acquiring su bstantial amounts of the lands in question, accepting for a moment his experience or his now feeling about the kind of management that needs to be applied to these areas as apart from having the department look upon them as their fiefdoms to the exclusion of all other uses.

I think that feeling is understood by the department and it certainly will be my ambition and intention to keep that policy very much in front of the de partmental people charged with the responsibility of pursuing the various management goals in these areas. 1 am satisfied that again coming back to the particular area in question, the Chur chill Wildl ife Management Area, that no finalization of management regime programs will be adopted that do not reflect, particularly in that area, the current uses that are made of the resources and the widest possible consultation.

The member notes and he is correct that there is a local advisory committee 2726

Monday, 13 April, 1981 advising the department step- by-step in the development of the prel iminary report, and will certainly have a very substantial role to play in the final recommendations to the department as to precisely the kind of management practises that will be carried out in that very substantial, perhaps the largest wildlife management area in the province. MR. BOSTROM: Another qu est ion arising from information, which we requested and which the Minister provided, is with respect to the forestry study which the government is carrying out.

I believe he mentioned somewhere in the estimates who was doing the study for the Government of Manitoba, so that's part of the record and I will be able to find that. I would ask the Minister what criteria was used in choosing the firm, whether or not it was simply a matter of price or did they have particular skills that the government was looking for in terms of carrying out this particular work, and I would further ask him when will the interim report from this group be ready and when are they expecting a final report from the group that's concerned with doing this management plan? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, I'm advised that there were a number of firms that were invited to bid or present proposals for the undertaking of this study. They had to in the first instance demonstrate some capacity in terms of staff, expertise, track record if you like in being able to undertake this kind of a study, and my understanding is that bid proposals were received from at least three firms, this firm being selected from those three on the basis of providing the lowest bid in this instance.

I would suggest that the likelihood could have been that the lowest tender may not have been accepted had the firm tendering or bidding not been able to satisfy the department that they had in fact the background to engage and undertake this kind of a study. MR. BOSTROM: Another question arising from this information, Mr. Chairman, I note the objectives and so on that the study is to address itself to, which appear to be very useful objectives.

I am wondering if the firm in question is being requested to look at all aspects of forest management in Mani toba including a review of the existing ManF or Forest Management Plan in The Pas, and the Abitibi Forest Management arrangements, which the government entered into. Will they be look ing at the total perspective, the two major mills in Manitoba, as well as the smaller operators arid the existing quota holder system, etc., or are their terms of reference being limited somewhat and only to look at one or the other of the major companies and not look at the smaller operations? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, not having available to me at this point in the Estimates the Director of Forestry to enable me to provide the kind of detail to the question the honourable member asks, I can indicate to the honourable member that the purpose of the study in a general way is to provide the framework, the data base, if you like, to build that 20-year forest management program that I indicated to the honourable member earlier on in the estimates upon which that 20-year forestry outlook in Manitoba will be based upon, and as such I must assume it includes not any particular region of the province's forests but the entire forest resources within the department.

The member will be aware that just as was the case when he was in office, the department receives yearly requests from different groups of individuals, companies, existing and outside, who display interest in potential forestry development projects in the province.

It's, I think, a fundamental responsibility on the part of the Department to have available to them a very clear, precise, and up-to-date knowledge of what the resource can bear, what the potential of the resou rce is, so that we can respond to th ose requests that we get from time to time from my colleague, the Minister of Economic Development, about possi ble expansion of the forest related activities in the Province of Manitoba. MR.

BOSTROM: Another question that arises from the information which the Minis ter passed on; relating to the Parks Branch, I note that in the Parks Branch budget for capital expenditures, you are looking at some minor improvements in the Grand Beach area. I note that there is no mention in there of any proposal or program for the Grand Beach Hotel. That was a matter of some discussion and cont roversy dur ing the last dis cussion in the estimates. I am wondering what is being done with that. What would be the status of that project at this point in time?

Does the Department have some plans for it, or is there a private concern at the present time which has a proposal before the Department which is acceptable in terms of the objectives of the park and the development that the government wants to see take place in that park? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I am advised that the Department has tried for some time to interest parties into taking over the hotel in question, the Grandome as it was kn own , I belie ve, with no particular success.

We are currently in negotiations with an individual, who has indicated an interest and a desire, and we believe perhaps has the capacity under arrangements yet to be arrived at to manage that facility on behalf of the Parks Branch in that area. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, I am not familiar with the arrangements the government has made, so I would ask the Minister how they came about to arrive at the selection of an individual or firm to do this work?

Was there a tender or a proposal offer put out so that various people or firms could offer their services and provide suggestions to the department, and if so, what was the criteria used to select this individual or firm in question? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I have to indicate to him that while there were lots of initial inquiries or interest, in the final analysis nobody was really prepared to propose any serious proposal that we could entertain.

The party in question that we are now in serious negotiations with is a group or a person that has substantial hotel experience and we have not arrived at any conditions or any arrangements as yet. We are hopeful that we can maintain this pers on's interest in the potential management and supervision of that facility, so that can be once again an attraction to the general area 2727

Monday, 13 April, 1981 and provide a service to the general area and the park in question, but it is doubtful, in fact, whether or not any move will be made in time for t�is year's recreational season. MR. BOSTROM: Ju st on that question, Mr. Chairman, can the Minister indicate to us who the individual or firm in question is, and what are the ob jectives of the department in term� of the negotiations?

Are they planning to set up a full service hotel there with a beverage room and room service and restaurant facilities, or will there be some limited amount on only a seasonal basis or is this to be a year-around operation? What are the terms of reference here? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, that's possibly one of the problems. We had lots of people interested in providing or running a service that called for one acre of beer parlour. That's not the kind of facility we think is called for within the park structure in that general area.

We are looking for an experienced hotel operat or, who can provide the necessary restaurant and associated services, acceptable cocktail provisions. In other words, provide some licensed privileges but not simply running Cl massive beer parlour in that area. That's been sone of the problems. MR. BOSTROM: Just in that regard, Mr.

Chairman, I would just like to know if in the discussio11s and in the considerations the government is looking at here, if they are taking into consideration the real demand in the area or the real need for a beverage room at this time, and if they are looking at the other facilities that are available, for example, I know of a hotel just not too many miles down the road, which )IOU know, may or may not be put into jeopardy as ,; result of some major facility being put up on a year round basis at Grand Beach.

I'm wondering if that is something which the department would oe taking into consideration and certainly something which the Liquor Control Commission generally takes into consideration when awarding a license in an area, and I'm wondering if the potential demand is being analyzed and the real need for the facility, which the government's proposing in this area, is really being carefully assessed. MR. ENNS: Well, Mr.

Chairman, this department's primary concern, of course, involves the proper and appropriate parks management policy, and not the department that is charged with the respo1sibility or the agency that is charged with responsibility about the manner in which, and the type of lictmses that are granted or not granted.

I would assume that the Liquor Contr ol Commission, through the Depar t mer t of the Attorney-General, would take those kind of concerns the honourable member mentions very much into consideration prior to the gran tin�1 of any des cription, or any type of licenses that could jeopardize the viability of another operation down the road. Mr. Chairman, there is no intention on my part to not to withhold the name of the party that we are dealing with. I understand it's a corporate group, that has hotel experience. I would undertake to provide the name of the party when next 'Ne meet in 2728 the House.

It's just that I don't have that information available before me. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. John. MR. SAUL CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, I have a few unconnected questions, but the first that rises to mind is in relation to this hotel operation that has just been discussed, and I'm wondering how it is that this Min ister is involved in de ciding about the operation of a hotel, and yet we know that other departments, well I should state specifically, the Hecla Island opera tion comes un der another Minister.

Is there not some sort of desirability to have one department being involved in these two or more similar operations, so that there is a general policy related to it? MR. ENNS: Well, Mr. Chairman, I believe it was the previous government that placed the Hecla Island operation under a separate corporate structure, Venture Tours, or associated with that organization. We are currently under way, that is when I say we, the Department of Natural Resources assuming the responsibility for the Hecla Island complex and it will be housed unde r the responsibility of this department and this Minister. MR.

CHERNIACK: So that, Mr. Chairman, all of the similar types of ventures by the government will come under the Department of Natural Resources. Is that the plan? MR. ENNS: Well, my experience tells me that I should be cautious in how I answer that question, Mr. Chairman, knowing that there are always certain anomalies that because of longstanding prior situations that have contin ued to exist, certain anomalies that would appear to be not consistent with a current policy may well be there.

I refer specifically to the queston of the Parks Department, current Parks Department policy, of not by and large encou raging large beer parlour type operations within the parks structure. They have presented difficulties for th ose persons charged with responsibility of maintenance of order within the park systems and are generally, you know, not acceptable to parks management policy at this time. While I say that, I am aware that anomalies to this policy exist.

I can think of a beverage room operation in, I believe it is at West Hawk Lake, that is operating that would appear to be at variance with the policy that I just indicated. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, I und erstand the Minister's indication that the policy he wishes to establish or maintain may not have reached the level consistently throughout the province, but that's not really what my question was.

My question was is, is there a plan to bring all operations within parks, all hotel and liquor licensed operations, under the one Department of Natural Resources, and I don't want to press the Minister for a definitive answer, because he may not be aware of any variations from this plan? I'm wondering if he would undertake to table in some way within the next week or two, a general respons e on go vernment pol icy relating to the operation within parks of the hotels and licensed

Monday, 13 April, 1981 premises, and if undertakes that, then I'd like to move on to some other . . . MR. ENNS: Well, Mr. Chairman, very quickly, I'm advised that with the exception of Hecla Island, which is in the process of being transferred to the jurisdiction of the department, all other operations are to the extent that they locate on park or Crown land, that they must satisfy lease conditions as imposed by the department through the Parks Branch, and from time to time subject to certain parks regulations that can be imposed upon them.

Now the Department of Natural Resources does not intend to get into the business of the licensing procedure. That, of course, continues to remain the responsbility of the Attorney-General's Department and more specifically the Liquor Control Board. MR. CHERNIACK: But, Mr. Chai rman, the negotiations for rental for the standard of operation other than the licensed aspects will come under the Department of Natural Resources in all cases? MR. ENNS: That is correct. MR. CH ERNIACK: Ok ay, then, Mr. Chairman. Another question: Is there any prohibition on the use of side arms in hunting in this province? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, my Chief Enforcement Officer, Mr. Earnie Psikla, tells me that that no, there are no prohibitions with respect to the use of - no, okay, pardon me. There is a prohibition. MR. CHERNIACK: Thank you. I understand that the Minister has informed the Comm ittee that under 12 (

m) Fire Sup pression, the expenditure in the previous fiscal year was some $12 million and the request for this year is some $1 million. If that is correct, if my information is correct, wou ld the Minister explain the differential of $5 million and where did it come from? Is it by way of special warrant which isn't recorded here or what? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, we dealt with this at the time the item was before us.

The normal and traditional amount that is pl aced in that appropriation is some half million dolla rs, knowing at the time that that amount is put in that it is a nominal figure, and not being able to, in any given year, predict accurately the actual amount of expenditures.

The subsequent, and that was the case in the previous year, the $12 million that now shows up was partly contain ed in the Sup plemen tary Estimates that were before the House at the latter part of this Session last year, as well as an additional $5 million in Special Warrant, some $5 million in Special Warrant, which makes up the total of $12 million too. This year, we show an increase from the traditional half million to $1 million in that same vote, again knowing that subject to the conditions there will be the necessity of Sup pleme nt ary Supply and/or indeed Special Warrant. MR.

CHERNIACK: Then the answer to my question was yes, the extra $5 miljion came out of a Special Warrant, and Special Warrants are not shown in these Estimates? 2729 MR. ENNS: Yes. MR. CHERNIACK: Thank you. The next question, Mr. Chairman, relates to the rental of water power, which I understand shows an estimate for the year just concluded of some $10 million in income. What is the estimate for this current fiscal year? MR. ENNS: Well, Mr. Chairman, my advice from staff is that the estimate for the past year, which showed that $10 million figure, was on the high side.

The current estimate for revenue from water rentals this year is figured in the $6 to $7 million range. The decrease is largely accountable because of an over­ estimate in the previous year, and I'm also advised the simple fact of reduced flows in terms of how the actual rental rates are computed. MR. CHERNIACK: Well, Mr. Chairman, I'm looking at a sheet that I believe was distributed by this Min ister showing water power rentals, 19 79, I assume it means for a fiscal year ending March 31s t, 197 9 at $4.2 million - $4.245 million; in 1980 - $7.286 million; 1981 estimate $1 0.037 million.

Now the Minister now says that this was a high estimate. I'd be interested to know when this estimate was made and what the actual appears to be for the year just ended? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I would have to advise the Honourable Member for St.

Johns that again, you know, we are dealing with the Minister's Salary, which he has every right to ask any or all questions, but he will appreciate that up until the early part of this late afternoon when we got on the Minister's Salary, immediate staff responsible for the Water Resource Department that established these figures felt that their particular need at this Committee was over arid are not here. Allow me to undertake these questions as notice, and I will certainly endeavour to make those answers available to him, either directly, privately or answer them in the House to the honourable member.

I would simply ask maybe perhaps for clarification purposes, if the Honourable Member for St. Johns would restate the questions so that we are clear as to the precise information that he is seeking? MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, I might say I think the Minister's proposal is reasonable and of course I will state my questions and expect to get a response even after he gets his money for his food and shelter.

My question was: When was this estimate of $1 0,037,000 made, because I assume it was just recently submitted; what is the present estimate, if indeed we don't know the actual yet and I would have thought that we would know the actual? In view of the fact that the Minister stated the expectation for this current fiscal year, that is, the year ending 1982, is - I think he said $6 - 7 million . MR. ENNS: Seven million. MR. CHER NIACK: Seven million, which is not greater than the 19 80 fiscal year-end amount.

Could he indicate when - and this is a matter of record that I should be able to look up - when the government passed, or had passed the increased

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ __ __:_:_t.llonday, 13 April, 1981 water rate charges and how that increase is reflected in these series of annual figures, recog 1izing of course, Mr. Chairman, that the availability of water year-by-year has to have an impact on the water rentals? I'll go on then, Mr. Chairman, on the assumption that the Minister does not wish to say an answer tonight.

I understand, and this is only what I think I heard in a news report, that the government is about to subsid ize the City of Winnip eg Hydr c• for an appreciable amount in regard to water rentals, due to the fact that the government's freeze on Manitoba Hydro rates is forced on City of Winnipeg Hydro, wh ereas increased rentals, as passed by this government, would have gone up substant ally.

As I say, it is my impression that I heard that the:re will be a grant of some kind, and I think it's over a million dollars, from the Province of Manitoba t•) City of Winnipeg Hydro to compensate them for the fact that they have frozen the rates, bearing in 'Tlind, Mr.

Chairman, that there are members of tha City of Winnpeg Council who complained bitterly that they were forced to charged more than they thought they needed to charge for their rates because 1hey were forced to match the rate charged by ManitCiba Hydro and they felt that that was unfair to their Inne r-City residents, whether this amount is correct, and possibly the Minister would undertake to gi�e a clear statement of the program as compared with my impressions? Will that amount, and I presume we'll know the amount, be deducted from revenues, or will they be an expenditure and in any case, where will they appear?

Will they appear in Natural ResourGe income in the Budget we'll have tomorrow or will they appear as an expenditure here in this item? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, just so that wn are very clear about what I am acknowledging as legitimate questions that this department can answer and is charged with responsbility for, we have and my senior administrative officer indicates we 1ad much of the detail in terms of water rentals with us a day or two ago when the item was under discu:>sion; that information I will certainly undertake to provide to the Honourable Member for St. Johns.

Deal ing with the Ho nourable MembE'r for St. Johns' impression as to what the City of Winn ipeg is to receive, let me ind icate to him that, first of all, I believe his impression is correct, that them is in fact a transfer of some substance taking place l)r has just recently taken place, but that is hand led entirely within the Department of Finance, co-orclinated by the Minister of Urban Affairs. His role is as the co­ ordinating liaison officer, if you like, with I he City of Win nipeg. It is my understanding that Finances' Estimates are due, or Municipal Affairs' Estimates are due to follow mine.

Those questions ara not ones that are appropriately directed to this c epartment and the sums of money involved would nol appear in either capacities, revenue or expenditure, within the Estimates of the Department of Natural Re>ources. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Chairman, let the Minister understand that I infer from what he sai j that any transfer of moneys to the City of Winnipeg for the purposes we have already discussed will not be a reduction of revenue expected to he in the 2730 neighbourhood of$7 million from water and power rentals, because if they are then the Minister is wrong in saying that they will not affect the revenues or expenditures of his department. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, if we are dealing with impressions, my impression is that that is not a qu estion that affects the fina nces, revenue or expenditure, or this department.

I am now speaking specifically about a financial arrangement that the Province of Manitoba wishes to enter into with the City of Winnip eg, or indeed has entered into, to offset any lo sses of revenue that the City of Winnipeg feels they have suffered as a result of the freeze of Hydro rates. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, let me make it clear that I am not expecting the Minister to answer for decisions made in other departments unless they affect his revenue or his expenditur es in his department. I don't think he knows now which way it's going to be and therefore I'm not pressing for an answer. But I believe, Mr.

Chairman, I am entitled to an undertaking that when the Minister responds, as he has already undertaken to do, to my questions for which he didn't have the answers yet, that he will in his response indicate to us, having been able to ascertain the answer, the extent to which his department's income or expenditures will be affected by that transaction. That, in itself, will reassure me that the amount given or transferred to the City will or will not come out of the projected revenues of this department under water and power rentals, which then means, Mr.

Chairman, I would have to look for an expenditure somewhere. You see, Mr. Chairman, it seems to me - I want to clarify it for the Minister - it seems to me that either the money has to come out of a form of forgiveness of payment of water rentals, in which case it will affect the revenues of his department, or it will have to be an expenditure, probably from some other department, maybe Finance. If it's an expenditure, then I will want to in due course find out from other Ministers where that expenditure will show up because in the end it's going to show up somewhere and I think we're entitled to know that.

So I don't expect the Minister, although I know very well he has the ability and the opportunity to find out just what the program is, if he doesn't want to answer for any other department, then specifically he should answer whether the expenditure comes out of his department or the transfer will be a reduction of revenue in his department. I hope that's clear. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I am advised that the transfer of the million-plus to the City of Winnipeg does not affect the expenditure or revenue picture of this department.

I am not prepared to speculate, even though I am aware in general terms of the its happening, as to how and precisely where it will show up, in whose Estimates, whether it's a direct expenditure from Consolidated Revenue, whether it would show up in Urban Affairs' expenditures, or whether it is attached to the block funding grant that is made to the City of Winnipeg. I would honestly and sincerely ask the honourable member to direct those questions or this question to the Minister of Finance, who would be in the best position to answer that question.

Monday, 13 April, 1981 MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, I will certainly do so, but I would like to think that I will have responses to my earlier questions in time that I should be able to ask it of the Minister of Finance with knowledge of what the Minister will already tell us. I have two sheets in front of me and there's a conflict in the sheets. One of them gives figures - it's called "A

Summary - Revenue re Water and Power Development," and it reads "1 979/80" and gives the figures which are comparable to what is shown as 19 79 in the other sheet that I have. That makes me think that this sheet entitled "B, Water­ Power Rentals" refers to the year - well, it looks like it refers to it an annual year but it can't really be because the figure is identical. Therefore, possibly the Minister would clarify, and as soon as I am through with these questions I will show the Minister or any member of his staff that he ind icates, the two sheets and ask for clarification.

I hope the Minister will give that in due course. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, just simply let me repeat my willingness to provide that information. We are ope rating under some difficulty becaus e in my eagerness to supply members of the committee with this additional information, which was asked for, we don't have the particular sheets of paper that the honourable member has been referring to during the last five or ten minutes and I welcome his consultation with staff and we will supply that information for him. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: Mr.

Chairman, I just have one more item to bring up. I realize that Mr. Webber is not here, but perhaps if the Minister hasn't got the answer, he can take it as notice. In view of the zero drainage runoff this year into our major lakes, Lake Dauphin, Lake Waterhen, Manitoba and Winnip egosis, could the Minister advise if the operation of the dams are now closed, or when will they be closed, at what point will they be closed? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I can only indicate to him that, for instance, dams such as the Fairford are closed and storing water; whether it's to full capacity, I'm not particularly aware of.

I would make the general assumption that because of the conditions that the honourable member speaks of, that Water Resources and those responsible for the operation of those dams would be very concerned about retention of all available waters to maintain desirable lake levels as the season proceeds. Again, Mr. Chairman, let me undertake to provide that information for the member.

Common sense would seem to dictate, though, and I see the honourable member shaking his head in agreement, that where inflows, because of the weather conditions, are next to zero, we would be carefully monitoring the outflows by the operation of the dams. MR. ADAM: I would ask the Minister to find out about the Mossy as wel l, the Mossy River Dam, which holds water in Lake Dauphin, and the Fairford; that's the only two. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (aX 1) - pass. 2731

Be it resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $420,3 00 for Natural Resources -p ass. Committee rise. SUPP L V - EDUCATION MR. CH AIRMAN, Ab e Kovn ats (R adi sson ): Committee will come to order. I would direct the honourable members' attention to page 49 of the Main Estimates, Department of Education, Resolution No. 53, Clause 4, Program Development and Support Services. The item is (

m) Student Aid,

(1) Salaries - pass; (2) - pass; (3) - pass; (m) - pass. (

n) Post­ Secondary Career Dev elopment, ( 1) Cont inuing Education Programs - pass - the Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. RUSSELL DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I was just wondering if the Minister could give us an indication of what has happened under this item. There is a substantial reduction and I wonder if he could explain the details of that. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. HON. KEITH A. COSENS (Gimli): Mr. Chairman, would be pleased to explain this particular item. As the honourable member will notice that in (

n) there is a reduction, but in (

o) a considerable increase, and this is accounted for by the fact that some of the programs that currently existed in (

n) are now being cost shared by the Federal Government and have been moved into (

o) under the Northlands Program. So in fact the total is not a reduction but there has been a movement out of (

n) into (

o) into cost shared programming. Mr. Chairman, in this particular

section dealing with Pos t-Secondary Career Dev elop ment and dealing primarily with native people, both on reserve and off reserve people, that we will have more people in this particular program in the coming year than we have ever had in the history of this province, some 355 people in total will be involved in one or other of the programs under this heading. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MS. JUNE WESTBURY: Mr. Chairperson, I wanted to ask some que stions about the middle years concept.

I understand that in 19 77 the departmental group was called the Middle Years Program Review Committee, and I would like to know if they are still active, how much money went into this program, how many people are employed, how many reports they produced, please. MR. COSENS: Mr. Chairman, I could endeavour to get that information for the Member for Fort Rouge but that properly comes under the head ing of Curriculum and Curriculum Construction and Dev elopment. We are now dealing with Post­ Secondary Career Development and primarily the programs that are contained therein. MS.

WESTBURY: I sat silently through Curriculum, and I always thought middle years came after

Mon day, 13 April, 1981 secondary, for most of us they do, so I thought this seemed like a good place for the middle years concept. I was hoping to find something that would interest me. In obtaining information, could the Minist<!r tell us whether there have been any pilot projects and where they were and perhaps tell us where I can go to find any reports that were submitted on tl1is whole matter. I have one other question which is probably in the wrong place too, and if so, I can rely on the Minister to tell me.

In light of the social planning councils warning about the growing of the core area, the expanding of the core area, could the Min ister tell us wha t research is being done on the core area schools in order to devise programs that will prevent the growth of the core area problems? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR. COSENS: Well, Mr. Chairman, once again, don't think this is the

section where we wou d go into that particular topic. The closest this particular head ing migh t come to that topic is with the Winn ipeg Education Centre where we tra n people from the core area to become teachers ancl to teach in the core area that they understand so wel l. But as far as research and so on this is not the area where we treat that. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1 - pass; (n) - pass; Canada­ Man itoba Northern Dev elopment Agre ·�ment (

I) Salaries - pass; (2) - pass; (3) - pa:;s; (

o) pass; (

p) Inter-Provincial Training Agreements pass - the Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR. D. JAMES WALDING : Mr. Chairm.3n, just a question or two on this particular item. I noticed that it has been moved to the end of sectior 4 and it always used to appear under Resolutior 50 after Teacher Certification. I would like to ask the Minister why it has been moved after all these years? MR. COSENS: Mr. Chairman, I suppose t's one of those administrative moves that's made; we felt that it could be more approp riat�ly hand led in this particular area than whe re it had been located before. Really, it's that simple. MR.

WALDING: Mr. Chairman, from mem:>ry I recall that this item last year dealt with financial support for Manitoba students in Optometry and \leterianary Science, I believe. I wonder if the Minister can tell us if it still covers only those two areas and can he tell us how many students are involved? MR. COSENS: Yes, Mr. Chairman, it deals with those two areas, Veterinary Medicine, where our students from Manitoba go to Saskatoon to receive their training and the Optome try cou ·se, that's offered in Ontario at Waterloo. Mr. Chairman, the honourable member has asked for the number of students.

In 1980-8 1, there were some 39 students from Manitoba enrolled in the Veterinary Col lege and we estimate that will rise to 42 in 19 81- 82. In the Optometry, there were seven students in total in 1981 and that will inc:rease to a total of nine in 1981- 82. MR. WALDING: One further question, Mr. Chairman. Can the Minister tell us whether the amount of increase in dollars by some $70,000 or $80,000 is accounted for by the increase in numbers or is there an increase in the tuition fees as well and, if so, what is the breakdown between the two? MR. CO SENS : It's accounted for by both, Mr.

Chairman, to some extent and we did overestimate last year as to what the charges would be for the students. We never know until the receiving institutions are well into the year and have determined what their expenses will be, what the actual cost will be and, as a result, there is a bit of an overestimate here. We also, I might say, Mr. Chairman, are negotiating with the University of British Columbia to provide special training for !reachers in the Special Needs area and also with the University of Calgary to provide su rvey engine ering spots for Manitoba students.

These are courses that are not offered in this province and as a result we are presently negotiating for those particular spots to be made available to people from Manitoba who are anxious to receive this type of training. MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman, that's encouraging to hear from the Minister, that there are negotiations going on with B.C. for the education of Special Education students. Can the Minister tell us whether he would expect that to come into force in this year or is he looking at negotiations for two, three or four years, and what sort of numbers does he foresee being involved in such a course? MR.

COSENS: Mr. Chairman, I'm optimistic that negotiations will be finalized within a matter of weeks and that these positions will be available this fall. MR. CHAIRMAN: (p) - pass;

Section 4 - pass - the Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR. WALDING: Before you pass it, I believe the Minister is just getting a little more information for me. MR. CHAIRMAN: I'm sorry. MR. COSENS: Mr. Chairman, I understand it will be six positions at the university in British Columbia and either two or three for the su rvey engineering course in Calgary. MR. WALDING: Mr.

Chairman, before we pass the resolution and move on to Community Colleges and Universities Grants Commission, I did raise a matter of the Ho use procedur e and legalities with the Minister several days ago, arising from an error under 3(a), where the Minister told us that there was some $1 million dollars additional under Resolution 52 that was not accounted for. I raised the matter with the Minister that the Interim Supply had passed a certain percentage, I believe it was 30 percent of the total, and there was also a dollar amount involved with it.

The Minister unde rtook to check with Legislative Counsel whether in fact that bill was still legal since 30 percent of the total was not the amount in doll ars. Can the Minister now report to us on his inquiries? MR. COSENS: Mr. Chairman, I can report at this point that my colleague, the Minister of Finance 2732

Monday, 13 April, 1981 assures me that this will be accommodated I believe, in Supp lementary Supply. MR. WALDING: Well, Mr. Chairman, that was not quite the question as to when or where the money will be forthcoming. The question had to do with the legality of the Interim Supply Bill, which mentioned both a percentage figure and a dollar figure, the two of them corresponding with each other.

Since the Minister has explained that there was an error in Res olution 52 that carries through to the total Estimates for the whole year, then 30 percent of that correct figure would not correspond with the $670 odd million that we passed. That was the question that the Minister undertook to look into. I'm not sure whether the Min ister of Fin ance can give us reassurance on that. MR. COSENS: Well, Mr. Chairman, without going into detail I can assure the honourable member that the Minister of Finance sees no problem in this particular case and that it will be taken care of. MR.

WALDING: Did the Minister take up the matter with his colleague, the Minister of Finance or with Legislative Counsel, as he agreed to do at the previous meeting? MR. COSENS: With my colleague the Minister of Finance, Mr. Chairman. MR. WALDING: I'm not sure whether it's in order to direct a question in the general direction of the Minister of Finance, Mr. Chairman. Let me put a rhetorical ques tion, Mr.

Chairman, and wonder whether any other member of the Treasury Bench would wish to get into the discussion on this matter, as to whether it is his own opinion and the opinion of his departme nt, or whether he, the Minister of Finance checked with Legislative Counsel on this matter. MR. CO SENS : Mr. Chairman, I reiterate to the honourable member that I have consulted with the Minister of Finance and he sees no problem in this particular matter. MR. CHAIRMAN:

Section 4 - pass - Resolution No. 53. Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $22,767,8 00 for Educa tion; Program Devel opment and Supp ort Services, $22,767,8 00 - pass. Resolution No. 54,

Section 5, Community Colleges Division, (

a) Division Administration ( 1) Salaries pass - the Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I note that there is going to be the installation of a new computer - I'm not sure exactly where th at will be - a new computer in the computer centre that will have a "significant effect on training in the Computer Analyst Program Course at Red River Community College". Then it mentions that there will be on-line terminals for student use which brings training in line with predominant methodology in the industry, that keypunch equipment is no longer being used.

I hope the Minister of Consumer Affairs heard that, namely, I regard that as obsolete in some areas and that, "the student experience is being analy zed and consideration being given to future expansion". So obviously there are going to be some strides made into the modern era into an area that I must admit, Mr. Chairman, I find very puzzling. I am not intrigued with computers but recognize their apparent value.

I was informed and perhaps the Minister could comment on this, that there is a new Information Branch or something to that effect, that is going to be established under Community Colleges, this has to do with computer systems and development, etc. My understanding is that this is a new thrust of the department and that there may be money somewhere in the Estimates for this particular new area so I would simply ask the Minister about that. Is there in fact going to be a new Information Branch and is this connected to the installation of the new computer or is that something separate? MR. CO SENS: Mr.

Chairman, we have a Management Information Branch in the colleges and we are in the process of considering very seriously establishing one within the department itself but not anything new as regards to the Community Colleges, Mr. Chairman. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I also note in the department's annual report that there was a survey made by the Department of Labour and Manpower on community college graduates last summer and they uncovered the fact that some 88 percent of the graduates were employed one year after graduation, and about an equivalent percentage were working in Manitoba.

Now this sounds pretty good and sounds like most graduates are in fact finding employment; but although it's good in that sense it still means to me that there's a 12 percent rate of unemployment among commu nity coll ege grad uates which is probably about double what our rate is - I don't know what the rate of unemployment is, is it 6 or 7 percent, 7 something at this point in time - so it would seem that it's not an encouraging statistic although of course better than 15 or 20 percent unem ployment. I wonder if the Minister has any comment about students unemployment and job propects.

I gather that in certain areas and certain courses, one is almost guaranteed a job and I think I heard something on the radio only today that in hotel management, food and beverage lines, etc., this is an expanding sector of the economy. I guess people are eating out more and don't cook as many meals and spend more time on vacations, etc., etc., and therefore there's a certain burgeoning development or growth in that particular area.

But I wonder if the Minister could comment on which areas graduates have a very high success rate in the order of 90 to 10 0 percent and if there are some problem areas where maybe only half of the graduates are actually able to find employment. MR. CO SENS: Mr. Chairman, I will get that particular information for the honourable member. I don't think he expects that I can rhyme this off the top of my head. But really apropros of what he is saying about our community college graduates and an

article that appeared in the March 25th Free Press that had the heading, "Un iversity Graduates Quit Province", it was interesting that this

article was based on a Statistics Ca nada surv ey of 19 76, 2733

____________________________ �_l o_n_d_a�y,�1_3 __ A�p_ri�l ,_1_9_8_1 __ ____ ______ ____ __ ____ __ __ _ community college and university graduate:; from all provinces except Quebec, and I thought that the head line certainly gave a somewhat misleadi ng picture of the actual survey outcomes for Manitoba - if not for all of Canada - and I would like just to comment on a couple of items from that. It didn't mention that in the area for college graduates that Manitoba experienced a ne>t gain of 6.3 percent, Mr. Chairman, nor did it menH Jn that in the survey Manitoba college graduates, cor1pared to Canada as a whole, rated as foll