Manitoba Hansard — 11 February 1966 (Sitting 7, 27th Legislature, 5th Session)

27-5-7

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2: 30 o'clock, Friday, February 11, 1966 Opening Prayer by Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions Reading and Receiving Petitions 157 MR. CLERK: The petition of the J. W. Dafoe Foundation, praying for the passing of

an Act to amend

an Act to incorporate The J. W. Dafoe Foundation. MADAM SPEAKER: Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees Notices of Motion Introduction of Bills HON. STEWART E. McLEAN, Q.C. (Attorney-General) (Dauphin) introduced Bill No. 30,

an Act to amend The Manitoba Evidence Act. HON. GEORGE HUTTON (Minister of Agriculture and Conservation) (Rockwood-Iberville) introduced Bill No. 46,

an Act to amend The Veterinary Services Act. MR . JAMES T. MILLS (Kildonan) introduced Bill No. 52,

an Act to incorporate St. Paul's College and St. Paul •s High School. MADAM SPEAKER: Before the Orders of the Day, 'I would like to attract your attention to the gallery on my left where there are some 24 Grade 5 students from Linwood School under the direction of their teacher, Mrs. Holland. This school is situated in the constituency of the Honourable the Member for St. James. On behalf of all members of this Legislative Assembly, I welcome you. Orders of the Day. MR . DONALD M.

McGREGOR (Virden): Madam Speaker, before the Orders oft he Day, I would like to correct an error that went out to the news medium in Western Manitoba, namely Brandon Sun, and the TV and Radio stations. I very much appreciate the coverage that was given by the Winnipeg Tribune, the Winnipeg Free Press, and the other news mediums here in the City of Winnipeg in this area, but somewhere there was a telegraphical error, I would sug gest, and I 'm sure it was nothing but just an error and I would like to correct it.

What I did say is that this university should be named the University of Western Manitoba, and I went on, and the quote has been issued and has caused me considerable embarrassment, that I had said �- they are saying that I said the "Western Canada. " This is not right and I'd just like this to be corrected, Madam Speaker. MR. GORDON E. JOHNSTON (Portage la Prairie): Madam Speaker, I'd like to address a question to the Honourable Minister of Health.

In your department, are there any civil serv ants who have been retired on pension and then have been brought back on staff; and if so, are they or is he or is she receiving a salary and a pension? HON. CHARLES H. WITNEY (Minister of Health) (Flin Flon): Madam Speaker, I'll take the question as notice. MR. LAURENT DESJARDINS (St. Boniface): Madam Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I'd like to ask a question of the Honourable Minister of Health.

I•d like to know when the province completed the agreement with the Federal Government to make use of extra beds at Deer Lodge Hospital, and I'd like to have the kind of deal the province made; what date the province first placed a patient in Deer Lodge and approximately how many beds are used by the province at the moment. Now, Madam Speaker, I didn't have a chance to let the Minister know about this so I wonder if he could take this as notice, if he wishes.

But I would like to ask him now on the same topic of Deer Lodge, why didn •t the Minister make any public notice in view of the fact that the House was so concerned during the last two sessions on this question of Deer Lodge? MR. WITNEY: I'll take the question as notice, Madam Speaker. MR . DESJARDINS: Madam Speaker, I don't know if he undel'stood. This is fine for most of the question, but the last question, I was asking the Minister why he did not see fit to make a public .announcement in view of the fact that the House was so concerned during the last two sessions. MR .

WITNEY: Madam Speaker, we have no agreement as yet with the Federal Government on the Deer Lodge Hospital but we have been negotiating with these people and that is the in formation that I'll get for the Honourable Member. MR . DESJARDINS: Madam Speaker; then the Minister will answer what he can of the question that I have asked him. Another question. I'd like the same Minister --I wonder if he could assure us that it is true that the lack of space at Children's Hospital is not serious and

158 February 11, 1966 (MR. DESJARDINS cont'd.) .... ·. that there is no emergency e:xists at this time at the Child ren •s Hospital. MR. WIT NEY: Yes. MR. DESJARDINS: Yes, there's no emergency. It•s not serious; MR. WITNEY: Madam Speaker, if the honourable member is meaning if an emergency takes place can it be accommodated at the Children's Hospital, the answer is yes. MR. STEVE PATRICK (Assiniboia): Madam Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Honourable Minister of Education. There has been two conflicting reports about the condi tions and facilities at the University Students' Cafeteria.

I wonder has he anything to report and has it been checked for health and cleanliness? HON. GEORGE JOHNSON (Minister of Education) (Gimli): Madam Speaker, I think this can be quite easily dealt with by the Board of Governors and the President of that institution. MR. NELSON SHOEMAKER (Gladstone): Madam Speaker, before the Orders of the Day are proceeded with, I would like to direct a question to the Honourable the Minister of Agricul ture. Can he tell the House what the most recent cost estimates are on the Portage Diversion?

There was a statement made at the Outlook Conference in Brandon a couple of weeks ago that suggested the price would be up around 30·percent higher than the original estimate. MR. HUTTON: I can't tell the honourable member just off the cuff. I'll take this question as notice. MR. PATRICK: Madam Speaker, I would like to direct a subsequent question. I haven't had an opportunity or will not have an opportunity to talk to the Board of Governors and I think the Minister should be able to give us some answer. _ MR. ELMAN GUTTORMSON (St.

George): Madam Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of Agriculture. There is a report from Washington that the government is going to cancel the registration on the chemical dieldrin because of the formation of illegal residues on forage crops. We had legislation dealing with this chemical in this. province here a year or two ago. Is the province considering any similar steps in view of the findings in the United States? MR. HUTTON: Madam Speaker, the Province of Manitoba banned the use of dieldrin ex cept for very limited purposes about two years ago. MR .

GUTTORMSON: I am aware of that, Madam Speaker, but I am wondering, in view of the facts, are they going to ban it completely or are they going to let it remain the way it is today? MR . HUT TON: The government here is not taking any further action than what we took some time ago. MR . DESJARDINS: Madam Speaker, I wonder if the Minister of Education is refusing to answer the question of my colleague. -- (Interjection) -- No, I just want to know if he is refus ing or not. He asked a question and we don't know. We•d like to know if he is going to answer or not. MR.

JOHNSON: Madam Speaker, the question before you is a matter of administration at the university at this moment. The President of the University has advised me that he will make a public statement and this he has done, MR. RUSSELL PAULLEY (Leader of the_New Democratic Party) (Radisson): Madam Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I would like to direct a question to the Honourable the Minister of Public Works. I apologize to you, sir, for not having given you prior notice of my question.

Madam Speaker I notice in that very progressive community of the City of Transcona that it is contemplated that there will be a shopping centre built at the southeast corner of Regent Avenue and Highway 59. In view of consideration having been made of a change in the direction of Highway 59 in around this area, has the Minister of Public Works been made aware of the proposed shopping centre in order that it would not be necessary, if .the highway changes are contemplated, that expropriation would have to be entered into after the construction of a shopping centre in that particular area.

Maybe, Madam Speaker, the Honourable the Minister is not in a position to answer, not being familiar as I am with that great City of Transcona, but he could take it as notice. He may however have the answer. HON. WALTER WEIR (Minister of Public Works) (Minnedosa): Madam Speaker, 1 am not personally aware. I am relatively satisfied that the department will have been made aware by the Metropolitan Corporation, but I will take the question as_ notice and get a more definite re ply.

) February 11, 1966 159 MR . J. M. FROESE (Rhineland): Madam Speaker, yesterday there was a report placed on our desks named the "Profile of Poverty. " Could the House Leader tell us just where this re port originates from and who is the author, or where does the report come from? MR. HUTTON: Madam Speaker, when I made the paper -- it's. not a report, it's a work ing paper -- when I made it available to the members, I warned them of the nature of this docu ment. It is a working paper.

It was produced by members of the civil service here in Manitoba and was their contribution to the consideration of the extent and nature of poverty in Canada at a conference called by the Federal Government and held in Ottawa. And when one reads it -I would give this warning again- keep in mind that this was a thought-provoking paper, a work ing paper, and is properly understood by those who understand some of the terms and the criteria and the accuracy of the criteria where they are used in the working paper. MR .

PAULLEY: Madam Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I would direct a question to the Honourable the Minister of Health. I understand that consultations have been under way between the Government of Canada, the Government of Manitoba, and other provinces respect ing Medicare. It is my understanding that the Minister and representatives of his department, or representatives of the department attended such consultations and conferences.

I wonder when the Minister will be making a report as to the progress which is being made respecting Medicare and if he will soon be in: a position to tell us the situation insofar as the position of Manitoba is concerned. MR. WITNEY: Madam Speaker, a report will be made in the House in a very short time. ORDERS OF THE DAY MADAM SPEAKER: Questions standing in the name of the Honourable the Member for Gladstone. MR. SHOEMAKER: Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Flee Island ... .. ..... . MADAM SPEAKER: May I ask you your seconder again please? MR .

SHOEMAKER: Lakeside, the Honourable Member for Lakeside.

(1) Did the Grand Rapids Forebay Committee authorize the purchase of hay to feed horses in the Moose Lake area during the 1965-66 winter?

(2) If so, what quantity of hay was purchased for this purpose?

(3) Is this quantity sufficient for the season or will more be required?

(4) From whom was the hay purchased?

(5) By what method or methods was the hay transported from the supplier to final destination?

(6) What was the total cost?

(7) How many horses are being fed under this program? MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion car ried. MADAM SPEAKER: Address for Papers standing in the name of the Honourable the Member for Logan. MR . LEMUEL HARRIS (Logan): Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honour able Member .for St. John •s, that an humble address be voted to his Honour the Lieutenant Governor praying for copies of all correspondence between the Government of Manitoba and the Government of Canada from January 1, 1955 to the present relative to the Nation •s divorce laws.

MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion car ried. MADAM SPEAKER: Order for Return standing in the name of the Honourable the Member for Glad stone. MR . SHOEMAKER: Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Portage. la Prairie, that an Order of the House do issue for a return showing:

(1) Number and size of all signs which advertise Highway Projects on Highway No.l West between Winnipeg and the junction with Highway No. 4.

(2) The number of said signs which are: (

a) rented; (

b) owned.

(3) The annual cost to the Province of 2 (a); and (4) the cost to the province of 2 (b). MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion car ried, MADAM SPEAKER: The proposed resolution standing in the name of the Honourable the Leader of the New Democratic Party. MR . PAULLEY: Could I have this stand please, Madam Speaker. I i

160 February 11, 1966 MADAM SPEAKER: The proposed resolution standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Selkirk. MR. DOUGLAS L. CAMPBELL {Lakeside): Madam Speaker, in the absence of the Hon ourable Member for Selkirk, could we ask for this item to stand please. MADAM SPEAKER: The proposed resolution standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Selkirk. MR. CAMPBELL: The same request , Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: The proposed resolution standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR . JOHNSTON: Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Assiniboia, that

Whereas only certain parts of Manitoba are declared eligible under the Federal Government industrial promotion program, and

Whereas this creates unequal compe tition between such areas and other communities in Manitoba with respect to attracting new industry, and

Whereas the economic growth of Manitoba is falling behind the economic growth of other parts of Canada, thus making federal subsidies and tax concessions more essential than in other parts of Canada, Therefore

be it resolved that the Government of Manitoba re quest the Government of Canada to declare all of Manitoba a designated area under the Federal Government industrial promotion program, MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion. MR.

JOHNSTON: Madam Speaker, I might say that the basis for the resolution originated with people in Portage la Prairie who have had a very difficult experience in trying to attract new industry to Portage, but upon examining the situation across the province, when I came to introduce the resolution I thought it would be well for the good of Manitoba generally to ask for support to have this idea of gaining tax concession support from Ottawa apply to all of Manitoba, so therefore I pro9eeded on the resolution. on that basis.

It might be well for me to explain what exactly is involved for those members who may not have had the opportunity to study the federal progr�m for cash assistance to designated areas. I have here some facts and figures and my source is the Manitoba Business Journal, October November, 1965, and if I may quote one paragraph: "Substantial cash and other incentives are now being provided to new or expanding industries in the Brandon area of Western Manitoba. This program provides cash grants to manufacturing and processing industries establishing or expanding in the Brandon area after July 1, 1965.

The grants will apply to investment on new buildings, equipment and machinery. The amounts of such grants for new industries are as follows: On the first quarter of a million dollars, a complete grant of 33-l/3 percent; on the next $750, 000, a 25 percent cash grant; and on any investment over $1 million, a 20 percent grant.

These grants are subject to a maximum of $5 million for any one project and they are payable in the following manner: so· percent of the grant is payable after the first year of operation and 20 percent in each of the two succeeding years, so that new industries starting up will, within three years, receive the total amount of their grant. 11 The formula for expan- .r sion of existing facilities are basically the same, although there are some varying regulations.

Now in Portage there had been a concerted effort put forward by various organizations and I have here a clipping from the Daily Graphic of September 16, 1965, and it states that the Chamber of Commerce, by formal resolution directed to the Federal authorities in Ottawa, asked for this designation for their area. That has since been followed by formal resolutions from the council of Portage la Prairie asking for this, and I myself have written two letters to the Honourable Mr. Drury asking for the same.

Now the replies that we have had back are not satisfactory but I believe there is room for discussion if it were taken at the provincial level with Ottawa. To show the honourable members how serious a matter it can be, where communities within a province with like circumstances, similar wage scales and similar problems, start to compete between one another with one having an unfair advantage in that they have some thing more to offer than the others, it can be seen that there will be some disruption in the economy of the province and there will be certain hardships worked in some areas.

In Manitoba, the towns who are the centres of designated areas are Portage, Dauphin and Brandon, and I have here some statistics that I have taken from the Employment Se.rvice and I would like to quote unemployment rates for the past three years. This is in the three areas - Portage, Dauphin and Brandon. In 1963 the national average unemployment rate was 8.4 - that was the high - the low for that year was 3. 7 percent; and the national average of unem ployment was 5. 5 percent. In 1963, in the Portage area, the high - there is no figure for that -

February 11, 1966 161 (MR. JOHNSTON cont•d.) ...... the low is 2. 4; and in Dauphin the high point during the year of unemployment was 3. 8 and the low was . 4; and the average was 1. 7 percent. Brandon fig-' ures have not been received. In 1964, the national high point of unemployment for a' month was 7 percent, the lowest month was 3. 1 percent, and the average was 4. 7. The Portage high for this period was 9. 5 percent, the low was 1. 7 percent, and the average unemployment for the year was 5. 5 percent.

Dauphin 1s high for the year was 3. 2 percent in one month, the lowest period in one month was . 4 percent, and their average yearly unemployment figure was 1. 5 percent. In 1965, the national high month was 5. 9 percent, the lowest month was 2. 4 percent, and the average was 3. 9 percent. In this same period, 1965, Portage la Prairie's high figure was 9. 2 percent of unemployment, their low was 1. 6 percent, and the average was 5. 2 percent; and at the same period Dauphin's high for the year was 2. 8 percent- a very re markable figure - their low was . 3 percent, and their average for the year was 1. 3 percent.

The source ofthesefigures are the National Bureau of Statistics in Ottawa. I know the other day our Honourable First Minister had occasion to question DBS figures, but any experience that I have had, I have found them to be reasonably accurate. Now in comparison of wages and salaries, the Manitoba average by DBS is $83 and some cents per week which-- pardon me, that's the Winnipeg average. The Winnipeg average weekly salary, non-farming, is $83 and some cents per week which works out to approximately $4,216 I believe it is for a year's income.

Now the average yearly income for a family in Brandon is $4, 953 - the average family income - and that 1s for 1961. The same period in Portage the average family income was $4,689, and in Dauphin it was $4,482. 00. This is 1961 income, which is another DBS statistic. In 1963, Brandon1s average weekly figure of wages only, which is not a family income but of wages only, Brand on •s average was $67. 47 a week, Dauphin's was $58. 36 a week, and Portage $58. 61 per week. That was 1963, and it progresses upwards to 1965, which is the last figure I have for a weekly wage and salary in these areas.

Brandon 's 1965 figure is $69. 42 per week, Dauphin's is $65. 42 and Portage is $62. 29. Now in the Brandon Unemployment Insurance Office area, they take in not only Brandon but the towns around there and they have approximately 115, 700 people in their area, and as of the end of January, 1966, there were 2, 154 people registered for employment who were un employed. Now in Portage, with the population of the area of Portage and district served by the Unemployment Office, there are approximately 45,000 people and there are 1, 098 seeking work as at the end of January, 1966.

So it can be seen by these figures that in Manitoba there is very little variation from area to area, particularly in the south central part of the province. Now in my writings to Mr. Drury in Ottawa, he has pointed out to me that one of the basis of naming a designated area is family income and they have set the figure of $4,250 per family, and if the average income of an area drops below this, then Ottawa would entertain the idea of having the area designated as an area needing assistance.

Then looking up the fact that the Winnipeg income of $83 and some odd cents a week comes just under this figure, and the fact that the areas that I have quoted are well under this figure, I think it is certainly a basis for consultation and discussion with Ottawa to have Manitoba have their designated area enlarged to include the whole province. Now to come back again to a specific case where disruption or concern can be shown in a town or a city, I would like to quote from a letter from a firm in Portage.

They employ - I believe it's listed in the data sheets of the Department of industry and Commerce as employing six people - but in checking with the industry I am informed that they employ from eight to ten people the year round and have a payroll of about 50 to $55, 000 the year round. Now this in dustry was attracted to Portage by a concerted effort of the Industrial Development Board of the time, a concerted effort of our Mayor Henderson and Council who had gone out and talked to these people and attracted them to Portage, and I believe they've been in Portage for five years now but they wish to expand.

They are looking for more land and more space to build on and expand this small industry to employ some more people and generally benefit the econ omy of the west itself. Now this letter that I have here, and I'll just quote from it: "In the near future this com pany plans on arranging for a new factory building, along with some additional production equip ment. Our existing building is now much too small and any attempt to add further to it would result in uneconomic production due to lot size, etc.

Financing of this new building and equip ment is of course a matter of great concern to us and we have given considerable thought to relocating away from Portage la Prairie in some community in a designated area. We find it extremely hard to understand why Portage is not in a designated area and Brandon is in such an

162 February 11, 1966 (MR. JOHNSTON cont'd. ) .... . area. It seems to us that, for its size, .Portage la Prairie sadly lacks industrial development. Any nurturing of this industry in this small city so close to Winnipeg would seem to be in the best interests of the whole province. " And the writer gqes on to ask Portage to be included in this area so that he can keep his firm there.

"Govern ment assistance available to companies in the designated areas of course would go a long·way towards that end and would make us more able to cope with competition from similar companies now in designated areas," and he mentions Minnedosa. His firm is in actual competitioh with a firm in Minnedosa that is making some type of agricultural equipment, so you can see what is happening where, for a matter of 30 or 40 or 50 miles a move down the highway can result in a grant of one-third of up to the first $250, 000 of expansion.

Then I would ask the honourable members to consider what would happen when this plan as it is presently in force with the designated areas of Brandon, The Pas and Dauphin, and sur rounding areas who have this advantage, what will happen to places like Morden, Portage, Winnipeg - you name them - any other places. Already we have an example of the type of competition that we will be entering into and I have here the Manitoba Business Journal of December- January, 1966, and there's a full page ad on Page 24.

The ad is placed by the In dustrial Commission of Brandon, and just to highlight some of the points in the ad, it says, 11The sun rises on industry in Brand on,'' and there •s a striking silhouette of an industrial corn plex and it mentions land, labour, assistance, transportation, advice and financial grants. Now any business person who is going to establish, he can seek out the five out of six pret ty well anywhere that's near a railway line.

We have an excess of labour in the province, we have lots of land, advice is free - anybody can give advice -we have the transcontinental high way and the railway lines, but no communities can give financial grants such as the nature that I have described here, so you can see the position the towns of Manitoba are going to find them selves in if this program carries on indefinitely.

It means plans that have been made by the Department of Industry and Commerce on industrial studies, feasibility studies, to help places like the Pembina Triangle, or to help any place that has put time and effort into locating or at tracting industry, the almost insurmountable problem we are going to have in trying to compete with actual cash grants . So I would ask the House to give serious consideration to the supporting of this resolution, and not amending it, not emasculating it and taking the strength out of it.

Let's face it, re gardless of what has been said here in the past few days, I think we all know in our hearts that Manitoba is lagging behind somewhat. I don't say it's all due to politicians or what not, but we have a difficult climate to attract industry into; we•re many miles from the mass markets; we have enough strikes on us now. Surely it would be advisable for the province to do the same as Ross Thatcher did, the Premier of Saskatchewan.

He went and he talked to Ottawa and he put pressure on - all the pressure he could - and he had Prince Albert declared as a designated area and this is where their pulp and paper mill is going. Surely we c�n do the same thing in Manitoba. We can go down there and build our case the same way we built a case for Air Canada, and perhaps we can have more success by going down there and talking hard facts and figures and asking for this sort of help. HON.

GURNEY EVANS (Minister of Industry and Commerce) (Fort Rouge): Madam Speak er, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Mines and Natural Resources, that the debate be adjourned. MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion car ried. MADAM SPEAKER: The proposed resolution standing in the name of the Honourable the Member for Ethelbert Plains. MR . GUTTORMSON: Madam Speaker, may we have the indulgence of the House to have this matter stand. _ MADAM SPEAKER: The proposed resolution standing in the name of the Honourable the Member for Ethelbert Plains. MR .

GU TTORMSON: Madam Speaker, may we have this resolution stand also, please. MADAM SPEAKER: The proposed resolution standing in the name of the Honou rable the Member for La Verendrye. MR. ALBERT VIELFAURE (La Verendrye): Madam Speaker, could I have the indulgence of the House to have this matter stand please.

February 11, 1966 163 MADAM SPEAKER: The proposed resolution standing in the name of the Honourable the Member for Elmwood. MR . S. PETERS (Elmwood): May I have this stand please, Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: The proposed resolution standing in the name of the Honourable the Member for Carillon. MR . LEONARD A. BARKMAN (Carillon): Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for La Verendrye,

Whereas the present method of returning a part of the school tax to the property owner by a direct cheque from the government has proved to be slow and cumbersome, and

Whereas it would be faster, more economical and more efficient to aliow the municipal corporations to give the rebate directly at the time the property owner pays the taxes, and

Whereas the municipal corporations have indicated their willingness to have the rebate handled in this way, Therefore

be it resolved that the Province of Manitoba cancel the present system of rebating directly by cheque and institute a plan whereby the municipal corporations give an immediate rebate at the time the taxpayer pays the real property tax in the municipal office. MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion. MR.

BARKMAN: Madam Speaker, much has been said about this resolution at the last session and I think though that it is even more evident today that some of the now famous words or expressions used at the last session such as "nonsense " and "muddling" and even .rrmost horrible" and some of the other phrases, I believe that it is unfortunate that they were said but possibly all true, but I do think that it was unfortunate that they had to be made. I hope this government today will agree that it is a huge and even expensive hoax on the people of the Province of this Manitoba.

As we all know, basically all it did was take some money from the left hand pocket of the taxpayer in a form of a specialized sales tax and then possibly charge an administration fee, and which it did indirectly for the handling of the money, and then of course put it back in the right hand pocket in the form of a property tax rebate. This kind of manoeuvre, as far as I am concerned, was not only misleading but it also has been quite time-consuming, Seemingly while this is possibly hard for me to prove, seemingly also expensive, and of course we know that it has the taint of political gimmickry in it.

But possibly the biggest error in my mind is the fact that in the procedure of this kind of rebate, this government has shown little confidence in the municipal people of Manitoba.

In my opinion, if ever a government was told directly and plainly that this kind of a gim mick, if I may use that word, and I am referring not to the rebate itself but to the handling of the rebate only, I do not think that it was ever appreciated by the municipalities, and I think that this government was told by the Union of Municipalities and told by the urban municipal! ties in a very clear, and I believe even in a pleading manner, that they did not appreciate the handling of this rebate on that basis.

Now it would seem to me that this government has not taken notice, even after a year of handling it this way, and I believe that they should. I for one am one that is willing to drop past mistakes and I hope that the government also feels that it is a mistake by now in the handling -the way it was handled - and that I wish it can be cor rected now. Madam Speaker, for the sake of not confusing the people of this province and of stopping this expensive - I call it expensive because I think it has been quite expensive at places - method of handling this rebate.

I am sure that the municipalities would be willing to, and could quite easily, handle these monies at much less cost, and I'm sure it wouldn't possibly even be half the cost that it is costing the government today. I think also the waiting period involved -we know that quite a few people had to wait up to two, three and even three months for their re bate, and some I hear even up to four and five months.

But basically, I think the point is that this government has and should take steps to restore the kind of confidence that I believe the municipal people deserve-and they have always de served - and I'm sure that they do at this time. I think we should save the municipal clerks the embarrassment of some of the questions that have been asked across their desks. Who I are we sending this rebate to? And questions like that. How do we apply for this rebate? Of course all of us know many more questions have been asked. When will we receive the returns of this?

Naturally, the clerks could not answer these questions and I think that we should not have any more of this. I have tried to seriously assess the handling of this school tax rebate and I ask myself if this government can really- there seem to be no reason - if this government can really give us

164 February 11, 1966 (MR. BARKMAN cont •d. ) . . . . . the real reason fOr handling it in this way. Last session it was questioned. Is it for efficiency reasons'? Is it for saving reasons'? I'm sure we all agree it can't be for service to the taxpayer, and I think we agree it is not for services to the muni cipalities. Well what? Of course we know the answer. But seriously, I ask this government to help pass this resolution and get on with other important business of Manitoba. MR. PAULLEY: Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Logan, that the debate be adjourned.

MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion car ried. MADAM SPEAKER: The proposed resolution standing in the name of the Honourable the Member for Seven Oaks. MR. ARTHUR E. WRIGHT (Seven Oaks): Madam Speaker, ... ...... of a statement by a Minister, may I have the matter stand? MADAM SPEAKER: The proposed resolution standing in the name of the Honourable the Member for La Verendrye. MR. VIELFAURE: Madam Speaker, may I have this matter stand please? MADAM SPEAKER: The proposed resolution standing in the name of the Honourable the Member for Sour is- Lansdowne .. MR. M. E.

McKELLAR (Souris-Lansdowne): Madam Speaker, could I ask the indulgence of the House to let this matter stand? MADAM SPEAKER: The adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the Honourable the Member for Sour is-Lansdowne and the proposed amendment thereto by the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition. The Honourable the Member for Gladstone. MR. SHOEMAKER: Madam Speaker, I didn't realize the House was so anxious to hear my message but I more than thank them for it.

And when I'm at it, Madam Speaker, I want to congratulate you upon your resumption to the highest office within the gift of this Assembly and upon your usual fine appearance here today. And when I'm handing out bouquets to you, I would like to thank you very kindly for reminding the members of this Assembly to not read their speeches, because I have advocated this for a long time and I have said that anybody that ever reads Hansard would know that I don't read my speeches and I don't prepare them very thoroughly either, and so I want to thank you for that.

I would like to congratulate my honourable friend the Member for Souris-Lansdowne and for his plug for the insurance industry. I haven't received any new business as a result of it but no doubt that will come in due course. And then I mustn't forget my honourable friend the Member for Churchill. He was born and raised in Neepawa, and you can tell by looking at him that it was a pretty healthy environment that he had in the Neepawa constituency.

I know · that he wasn •t satisfied with the Throne Speech - not all of it - you could tell that he wasn •t, and I think that there's certain indications that members on this side of the House were not completely satisfied with it either. I think that I should say that I have really missed my honourable friend the Member for Brokenhead, and if I am a little longer than usual today, 11m going to blame him for it.

At Christmas time I wrote him a little note and I said something like this: Eddie, you can save me an awful lot of time if you will just tell me what two or three books that you would pick from the library out of the several hundred thousand that are there. He wrote me back and obliged me in this regard, and he put a little P. S. on the note and he said that I want you to deliberate at even greater length at this session in light of the fact that he would not be here. And so I have to rather speak for he and myself you see.

Now, Madam Speaker, the motion that is before the House at the present time is the amendment to the Throne Speech, as everyone knows, and it seems to me -- it seems to me that it is the first sentence in the fourth paragraph that really got the House in an uproar, and you know what that one is, it is the one that states, and I quote, 11My Ministers state that our province is in the midst of an unprecedented period of prosperity and growth. '' Now this was His Honour reading this, and he really didn't believe it I don't think, but he says, 11My Min isters state that.

" Well we take exception to that too and so we moved an amendment to this Throne Speech, and the Honourable Leader of the NDP isn't in his seat at the momeJit- oh yes, there he is over there - excuse me. He is over having a big two conference. He moved one that really said the same thing as ours. He struck ours all out but it really said the same thing, and that is that we were not keeping pace with the rest of Canada.

February 11, 1966 165 (MR. SHOEMAKER cont'd.) Now the government benches seem to forget, or did not interpret, or could not compre hend the wording of our_ amendment, because we did not say that you were not making certain progress. What we did say was that Manitoba was lagging behind the rest of. Canada. That's what we say, and even our good friend Peter Kuch recognized it in last night's Free Press and again in this morning's Free Press, with his very famous cartoon on progress.

He recognizes that Manitoba is making progress because his cartoon shows the Premier of this province with his giant on the march -with his giant on the march going neck and neck at a snail's pace with the snail that •s beside him. It also shows that Canada is away out in the lead of both Manitoba and the snail. But what is really important I think is that they are both heading towards pro gress, and if my honourable friends have not seen this famous cartoon, I commend it to them because it tells a nice little story all in itself as most cartoons o{ this nature do.

So we •re not saying that you 're not making certain progress. You •re headed in that direction, along with the snail, at the same rate, but not keeping pace with the rest of Canada. That's what our amendment has to say. Now, I don't know, Madam Speaker, what the First Minister was referring to in his re marks yesterday when he said - and I have not checked Hansard incidentally, Madam Speaker - but he said something about certain people who he took out to lunch, and when the bill came along they turned their head the other way.

I hope he was not referring to me, but if he was, if he sends me a bill, I'll gladly pay for it if he thinks I owe him anything in that regard. I don •t know' what the inference was, but I thought I should clear the air of that one.

Now it is a little difficult I will agree, Madam Speaker, in this court - because it seems to me that the government is on· trial and this is what the Throne Speech is generally all about - I understand that one of the main reasons that the government cannot proceed with other business until the Throne Speech Debate is concluded is because it is not supposed to be certain that the government will be in office, or something of this nature.

So at the moment I suppose you could say that the government was on trial, but it's pretty difficult to bring in evidence that is acceptable to the government in light of what the First Minister said yesterday. You will recall that he even attempted to rule out DBS statistics. Well I don't know wheth er he completely ruled them out, but he said, and it is reported in the Tribune of this morning, that the Premier said that he preferred to accept Metro's estimate.

He•s referring to·the population growth of 7. 7 percent increase in the population of Greater Winnipeg in 1965 rather than the 2. 9 percent DBS figure used by the Liberal Leader.

Well the Liberal Leader was using DBS figures and this was brought out in the two speeches that we heard yesterday, Well I guess that it is understandable from the Premier •s point of view that no one should question his statistics and his figures and his comments, and considering that, then I thought that I should more or less stick to what he said - the Premier said in various times in the. past - in bringing forward evidence today to show that Manitoba as you have said --the Leader for the NDP as he has said, along with us that Manitoba is lagging behind--and so I propose to do a certain amount of reading, as usual, and I'm going to start reading what the Premier said himself on other occasions and what some of the Cabinet have said on other occasions as re specting the industrial growth of our keystone province.

Now I am not certain, Madam Speaker, of the day of this publication, but it is a recent one because --it's the Free Press I•m sure of that although I haven't got it initialled as Free Press, I know only by the writing it was Free Press --but the Free Press are commenting on what the Premier said when he appeared before the Thompson Enquiry Commission, and it is headed, "Manitoba Runs for Jobs --Roblin. 11 I1m going to read part of it, and if I'm en couraged, if you want me to read it all I can because it isn 1t very complimentary to the govern ment.

It's complimentary to the Premier because he always makes a wonderful presentation, but it says, "Premier Duff Roblin admitted under cross-examinat�on Monday that Manitoba has a deplorable growth rate for industrial employment, and Mr. Roblin told the Thompson En- quiry Commission that this province is having to run like mad in order to maintain present ·.1 levels of industrial employment. 11 And further on down, 11 •Our gains in the last few years have been distressingly small,' Mr. Roblin said, •only in 1964 have we shown any advance at all.

Our problem has been to run like mad to stay in the same place•, " That surely will be accepted as evidence since it was the Premier who made those statements. Now in the Free Press

article again, quoting the Premier again when he appeared before the Thompson Commission, he �aid, " 1In recent years the industrial growth has been dis tre.,Jngl y em ull '. " Theee ""' r quotutlon m�ks. Theee quote• are what the Premie, eaid

166 February 11, 1966 (MR. SHOEMAKER cont'd. ) ... .. himself, and then the editor of the Free Press says --this isn't the Premier --he says, 11But Manitobans may now question, in light of the Premier's pessimistic statement, the performance of his government's department of industry. This is a department that has a sizeable staff and spends a substantial amount of money each year to bring new industry to Manitoba to encourage firms to set up here and so make more jobs for Manitobans.

" Now just last week the Free Press, February 8, 1966, on the Editorial Page under a heading "Slow Growth" talks about population growth--talks about population growth, and this is the one, Madam Speaker, that the Premier took such strong exception to yesterday and said that he would prefer to use Steve Juba 1s figures rather than DBS and --(Interjection) - Metro was it? Excuse me. Well it's the same thing anyway. Reading from the Free Press, February 8, 1966 "The latest growth statistics in terms of population for Metropolitan areas in Canada is hardly encouraging tp the people of Greater Winnipeg.

Between the 1961 census and June 1, 1965, it is estimated that Greater Winnipeg's population increased by 2. 9 percent. This was the smallest growth shown by any of Canada's major metropolitan areas. Why is Greater Winnipeg relatively so stagnant, " they say, "in this regard. " Well what I thought of, Madam Speaker, immediately the First Minister was speaking yesterday was this, surely to goodness the DBS authorities or statisticians, or call them what you like, surely to goodness they use the same formula when they are arriving at the popula tion of all other cities in Canada. Surely they must do that.

Surely they are not trying to boy cott Winnipeg. Even if there is a Liberal administration down there, surely this isn 1t one of the things that the P. M. has instructed the DBS authorities to do, boycott Winnipeg and make it show that they haven't any population there. I don't really believe my honourab le friends think that, and yet the First Minister was suggesting that he prefers ro helieve Metro's figures rather than DBS. Now what we have been trying to show as regards population growth 1s tne growth of population in Winnipeg, or the lack of it, compared to other cities in Canada.

Per haps the population has grown in Greater Winnipeg, but it 1s lagging behind the other major cities. Incidentally, Madam Speaker, when my honourable friend the Member for Kildonan was speaking the other night_ about this giant on the march, there again I say he failed to compare the growth in Manitoba to other provinces in the Dominion, and I know when I'm in business, if I'm inclined at times to be satisfied with the way business is going with me generally, I am inclined to compare my success with my opposition and say, well i:[ he1s gaining and I1m losing what •s going wrong?

Let's sit down and look things over. If a farmer who is consistently get ting 25 bushels of wheat to the acre but his neighbor is getting 40, doesn't he sit.down and examine things and say now what can I do, what am I failing to do that the other people are doing? That's what we're saying, and so I say that the DBS authorities and statisticians they use the same formula from coast to coast in arriving at population figures. They are not boycotting Winnipeg in this regard.

Now another famous document that certainly should be permissible to use in this court room is one that we on this side refer to as the propaganda sheet, but who puts them out? The Information Services Branch. I believe it is now under the Provincial Secretary but it used to be under Industry and Commerce, but April 2, 1965 - that is roughly ten months ago - they put out one that is called and headed 11Report Highlights. " This famous orange propaganda sheet -w e have them now in orange, in green, in white and several other colours, but this is the orange-coloured edition.

Now as I start off, I'm quoting: 11Here are highlights of the report of the Manitoba Econom ic Consultative Board tabled by Premier Duff Roblin in the Legislature, March 31, 1965. In 1964, Manitoba's productive capacity in terms of capital and manpower resources increased less during the year than the rate of Canada as a whole. 11 I'm not saying this, this is what the Premier said. "Total available civilian manpower increased only one percent as compared to the national rate of more than two percent during the year.

Shortage of skilled labour noted in agriculture and the clothing, furniture and iron and steel products industry, as well as ware house and storage industries. Evidence of a looming shortage of doctors, dentists and tralned nurses. Manitoba •s population has consistently grown at a slower rate than Canada as a whole, 1 1 and they elaborate on each one of these. 11Five year moving averages since 1946 indicate that employment pull has been away from Manitoba. " That's what he says. "The figures indicate that the employment pull has been away from Manitoba. During this period Manitoba's population

February 11, 1966 167 (MR. SHOEMAKER cont'd.) .. ... growth has been between 61 and 71 percent of the national average." That•s what we•re sayin� in the amendment. That's what we're saying; it's below the national average. "Change in pejrsonal income per capita in recent years has kept pace with the national figure, but because Canada's growth in terms of gross national product has been the lowest in the industrial wor�d, to have held our own in a slowly-growing economy can give but little comfort. " Words of tre First Minister of this province, Madam Speaker.

Now my honourable friend the Minister of Agriculture -- he •s not going to run away on me I hope -- thanks, he's coming back. j I wanted to read just a little bit of what he had to say be cause he is an authority on so many fhings, and particularly in the agricultural field. Incident ally, I never did get a copy of the ney Farm Outlook book that pleases me so much.

I know there was a Farm Outlook Conference in Brandon just ten days ago and perhaps it has not yet been distributed, but I am looking forwar� with a great deal of interest to getting it and I hope that I won •t have to contain myself too mrch longer in this respect. But I do want to quote from the Farm Outlook of 1964 and I don't think that unless we got the shot in the arm that we were promised, that things have changed [ so much since that time.

I'm going to quote from Page 8 of this Farm Outlook book and I suppose -- I suppose it was my honourable friend that madel - the statement, and if it wasn •t then I would say it was the First Minister because ever since this Farm Outlook Conference, since the first conference held in Brandon, these two honouratile gentlemen have been the major speakers at this Farm Conference. I'm quoting now: "MJ.nitoba, in a sense, is being left behind in agriculture. Between 1945 and 1961 agricultural production in our province increased about 10 percent. The rest of Canada in the meantime increased 23 percent.

This is more than twice as fast and points to the need for us to continue making greater efforts and applying ourselves to adjust to the changing conditions of today's world. " So what he is saying is Manitoba is lagging behind the rest of Canada. That's what it �ays right here. There •s another very famous dfcument that I have not yet received and I wonder if my friend would supply me with it. "The Manitoba Government" -- I'm reading from a newspaper story here -- "The Manitoba Goverrment has produced a report which states flatly that net farm income does not depend on either good land or expensive machinery.

The report says a survey showed that farmers on pooi land with little machinery made twice the profit of those on good land with the same machinJry. " Now this

article says that this is a Manitoba Govern ment produced report and I would like to see the report as I'm sure it would be interesting if it co�:: n�:: ew�� o;e::::��:;! � t =j::k: hr � t :!a� o��·How•s my time coming along, Madam Speaker? MADAM SPEAKER: You have. I been speaking for a little better than half an hour. MR. SHOEMAKER: Half an hdur? Is that right? Well that may be so. I•ve said some things that my honourable friends � on •t like to hear, I know, but I've been trying to stick to the facts as presented by my honourab�e friends. I•ve been reading documents that they supplied us with.

But surely after having pfoduced a lot of government evidence in this court room, I might be allowed to read one short l little story from the Neepawa Press, and this one is Friday, January 28th, certainly before we � et here - assembled here at this session. It is headed "Canadian Prosperity, " and I quot� , "Canadians, according to most observers on the national scene, are enjoying a period of unprecedented prosperity. Business and industry are booming and the outlook for the future is brtght. " That's the first paragraph, and it goes on to say how bright it is. You know what the laJt paragraph is?

"Curiously, no mention is made of Manitoba. It is possible that this was an overkight, but it is also possible that Manitoba is one of the areas that is failing to keep in step with te growing national economy. If this is the case, Manitobans have a right to expect some dynamfc new programs when the Legislature meets next month.

" That's what the Neepawa Press had to say and they•re looking forward to a "shot in the arm." Now just about a week ago, orl ten days ago, the real estate Ill en met in the Royal Alex and they apparently quoted some figurJs that were picked up by The Financial Post because it ap pears in the Financial Post of Febtuary 6, 1966, on the front page. They give figures of real estate sales, multiple listings, in f,l arious cities across Canada, and where do you think Winnipeg was in this regard? At t e bottom of the list, and it won't take me long to read it.

The table shows the percentage of increase in 1965 over 1964. The percentage of increase in real estate sales, which is a pretty good i•ndicator of the way things are going, Toronto had a 16 percent increase; Vancouver, 27; ] Montreal, 20; Hamilton, 30; Calgary, 14; Ottawa, 23; London, 24; Edmonton, 16; Kitchener, 25; and where do you think Winnipeg was? Where do you thlnk Wlnnip•g wu? Six pero�-alx - away d� at th• bottom. Not juat OOlow, hut aWay I

168 February 11, 1966 (MR. SHO EMA KER cont'd. ) ..... down. This is what we 're sa ying in our amendment, that Winnipeg is lagging behind the res t of the Dominion. That's what we' re sa ying. Incidentally, I intended to sa y this, Madam Speaker, when I was speaking on Neepawa and this

article from the Neepawa Press, that my guess is that about four or five percent of the labour force in Neepawa - now let's get this straigpt - the labour force in Neepawa is working in Saskatchewan. Assuming that the labour force in Neepawa is around four or five hundred, we have 25 or 30 people that are working now at Esterhaz y or in that vicinity. And it's a good thing they're working there, but the point is that the draw is away from Manitoba. I would like to ask my honourable friend the Member for Birtle how many people in his area are now work ing in Saskatchewan.

I111 bet you there's a lot more than five percent of the labour force, and more power to them. But why should they have to go to out of the province to seek employment? I don't know, Madam Speaker, I intended to use this famous document to support our amendment further. This has not yet been catalogued in the library.

I went and got it yester day, but it •s this famous annual document that is put out by the Financial Post and is called 11The Survey of Markets and the Business Year Book for 1965-66 ." And rather than take the time to read it all through, because it is a pretty hefty book, I would commend it to my honour able friends opposite because it says here - this is a brand new set of figures - that Manitoba 1s population, 1961-65, is 3. 1 percent below the national average. Now there we have another - there we have another set of figures. They sa y 3. 1 below.

But they sa y '•b elow. 1' -- .(Interjec tion) -- What are we going to do about that? Madam Speaker, here are the people that have sa id in the Throne Speech that we are enjoying an unprecedented growth rate, and then they ask me what am I going to do about it. Well, so oner or later we may be over on that side of the House, and maybe so oner than they think, and we'll show them. Manit oba now stands, and this is from this famous document, seventh in the amount of cons truction carried out between 1961 and 1966 and lags 18. 1 percent behind the national average.

There again it's supporting what our amendment is, that Manitoba is lagging behind the national average. That's all we sa id. We did not sa y that you are not making certain pro gress; we said you're lagging behind the national average. The average increase in weekl y income in Manitoba is lower than any other in Ca nada by 7. 6 percent according to this book. Look it up for yourselves. And there are many other tables in here that I commend to you, but I know, Madam Speaker, that I am nearly at the end of my time limit. I did want to sa y one thing about education.

I was going to sa y a lot more about agriculture and I see my honourable friend is back in his sea t now, but I will have that opportunity when we get onto the Agricultural Estimates. But I was going to say this one thing about education. About two weeks ago tonight I attended a meeting in the West Park Auditorium that was called, I believe, by the Beautiful Plains Sch ool Trustees - Beautiful Plains Divis ion School Trustees - to which were invited all the teachers and certain other characters like myself.

The purpose of the meeting was to discuss Bill 39 and the content of it and the poss ibility of further conso lidation and so on and so forth and three speakers were there, one from the Department of Education, a fellow I have a very great deal of respect for; and a chap from outside the Divis ion, I forget his name; and another fellow from Arrow River, a sc hool teacher speaking for the teachers.

But when the question period c3 me along, I think I asked the first two questions because I did have to get away to another meeting that mght, but this was the question that I asked in light of what the three speakers had said, because one of them -- not one of them, I think they all said this in ess ence . They said our daily papers, and particularly the weekend sections or the help-wanted columns extend to two or three pages, many of them block ads, advertising for certain skilled people to fill jobs ... ... . . MADAM SPEAKER : The honourable member has about four minutes left. MR.

SHOEMAKER: I1ll try and be through by that time -- and unable to get them in Manitoba. They made that statement. Another statement they made - I forget whether this was made by the chap from the Department of Education, if it wasn •t it was made by one of the other two - and he sa id, "Do you know that 50 percent of the pupils that are presently attending elementary sc hool will be called on to fill jo bs that are not yet created? That is by automa tion. " What he meant is that automation will bring about new jobs .

Well, my number one question was: Who is responsi ble to assess our present and future needs in this regard and establish a curriculum so that we will have people to fill this job? My honourable friend the Attorney-General is patting the Minis ter of Education on the back - I don't mind patting him on the back too as long as he's got the answers to these - but do you know the answer that I got?

February 11, 1966 169 (MR. SHOEMAKER cont'd) .. . TheJ11 said, "You have pretty well answered your own question. " And I said, 11Well, it wasn •t a very intelligent answer that I got. " The other question was this: !Let us suppose that we proceed with the measures -- that is Beautiful Plains School Divis ion irl rustees and people within the division -- proceed to follow the measures in Bill 39, that is the request is made, as provided in Bill 39; you have a vote; you follow it right through to a con9lusion. What will we then have?

I said, "Will we then have a divisi.on'that is sim ilar in e�ery respect to Dauphin-Ochre? 11 And do you know what he sa id? 11Absolutely. 11 He said "ab� olutely". I didn't say anything there but I want to remind my honourable friend, and I have said this to my honourable friend the Attorney-General on more than one occa sion. It is now 20 years a:go sin ce the Dauphin-Ochre /area was established, I believe. Was it not in 1946? He is nodding his head in the affirmative, so that means yes.

Twenty years ago the Dauphin Oc hre area was established by a g4vernment - certainly not this government - and I have said this in the House before and I will sa y it again. Seven or eight years ago I said that they had a better plan at Dauphin than the n�w divisions would produce. My honourable friend the Attorney-General was then Minister of Education, and who still represents that area, advised them when the vote was taken to stay where they were, that it was a better plan than the school divislons, and it is.

My point is uk t this is not progress if we are now trying to seek a sys tem of education that was introduc¥ twenty years ago, I want to congratulate my honourable friends for trying to promote it twenty years later. This is what I am doing.

Now I know, Madam Speaker, �hat you are going to remind me that my 40 minutes has come to an end, but I urge every J ember of this House to vote in the affirmative when it comes to the resolution that is prekently before us on the Throne Speech because I feel that the evidence that I have produced lere today, and the nature of it - by reason of the fact that it was government evidence, most of it - that they will support us in our endeavours. Thank you. ... continued on next page. I

17 0 February 11, 1966 MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable the Minister of Education. MR. JOHNSON: May I first of all, Madam Speaker, congratulate you on the man ner in which you discharge your heavy responsibilities, and we appreciate the grace you lend to this Chamber and your wisdom in keeping us in line in debate. Unlike the Leader of the NDP, I am quite capable of extending other very warm wishes to you in your capa city as Speaker, but I think I am just echoing what everyone else in th«;J Chamber has said to date in express ing their appreciation of your efforts.

I also wish to congratulate the mover and seconder of the Speech from the Throne. Both these gentlemen are men who are very aware of the problems in their constituencies and have expressed the progress in these areas under the present government in the last few years, and their concern and dedication to the interests of their people is most commendable.

I feel, Madam Speaker, today that in a Speech from the Throne, I think it is tradition ally customary to take this opportunity to mention your constituency, and I thought I would like to make -- while I have a more important matter I wish to bring to the attention of the House this afternoon, I did want to spend a moment mentioning some events in the sovereign constituency of Gimli, which I think have a bearing on the debate that has been proceeding in the last few days, (interjection) -- in the sovereign constituency of Gimli.

The people at Gimli, of course my constituency, have been most grateful for the roads, the drains that have been created in the past eight years, that have put a new complex upon the constituency, the increased health programs, and the divisional system which has increased the enrollment in the high schools of that area by lOO percent in six years. The people see this progress about them and they are grateful for it.

Today, after listening to readings from Nels in gloom and doom, I cvuldn't help but insert in this debate, Madam Speaker, how really -I can't th1nk of the word -h ow really odd it is that we should hear these words of wisdom from members of the Liberal Party op posite. During the past year in my constituency, I think one of the most short-sighted, un conscionable types of activity or action was proceeded with. My constituency has been most grateful for the decis ion of the Federal Government to enlarge the Gimli air base, which has been a very wonderful thing in that Inter lake area.

So many fine people from all over Canada have come during the past 15 years and much of the social life of the community revolves around that, with the Air Force personnel. We were most grateful when we learned the Federal Government was changing its policy and was going to permit the development of housing within the community Gimli, in concert with the town officials we presume. I have read with interest the statements from the Prime Minister of Canada on re gional development, and the Honourable Mr.

Sauve, the Minister of Forestry; clear, bald statements that say that governments, federal and provincial, must work with the local communities to enhance them, especially in areas where the opportunity is not as great as others, such as ARDA areas espec ially - and of the course the Interlake area, as you know, is in ARDA.

And here was an opportunity, with the enlargement of this base, with the re sources of the Federal Government, in concert with the people of the commtiiJ.ity, to develop and extend the town limits of the Town of Gimli, which has not a spare lot left for develop ment at the present time or at this point. What a wonderful opportunity to have carried in to effect that whole concept that . .they had developed - and mind you, they have now deferred it a designated area - but Madam Speaker, the Federal Gove rnment allowed a private devel oper to come into that community and impose his will on the people.

An unnatural extension of that commwity has taken place, with untold problems for the future. The Town Council, when they could not have commercial development proposed by these developers developed in concert with themselves, refused water and sewage works. Madam Speaker, we hear about regional development opposite. We hear about so much from the members of the Liberal Party.

I prevail upon each and every one of them -b e cause it's probably not too late -t o bend their good efforts with the people of my 9onstituency and prevail upon the federal authorities not to proceed to destroy what has been a community, a community that has ta_ken 80 years to develop to this point. The business

section of that community is threatened. Here we have spent money paving the streets, developing the community, improving the housing, the water and sewage, and now we're facing an unnatural extension to the northwest with the development of lagoons and all those things that could have been avoided had someone, just one person -- I appealed to the Minister concerned; I was told, I suffered the Juggernaut of the Mike, the Juggernaut of the Mike. So before they do too much talking about regional development and how to plan and develop this province,

February 11, 1966 17 1 MR . JOHNSON (Cont'd) : ..... let them put their action where their talk is. Get down there and help me and a few others in t t community bring these people to their senses, because those departments are not even in�ou . eh with one another, not even by remote control. I have heard the statements of the o her Ministers. I've heard the Prime Minister's state ments. But I can't seem to impress upon the people concerned.

And when they say to me, when they say to me, "Oh, but maybe it wasn't too good in the past, " I well remember in 1950 when that baEe opened withoJt any warning at all, and they were welcome. Hundreds of young people came into that coilimunity. There was no sewer and water; there was no de velopment; there was no housing.[ I know I delivered the babies and went home and helped care for them in winterized summer homes. And when I think back on it, that gave Gimli a bad image in the eyes of the federjal authorities. Can you imagine?

And today, I think they're horse-whipping them for bhat they consider unco-operative action in the past. And I wanted to use the forum of my c 1lleagues in this Legislature, to bring as forcefully as I can to the attention of all those talking regional development, that we'd better wake up and act along those lines that we say te should.

Here was an opportunity in an ARDA develop ment area, in an area designatedjbY the federal authorities as an under-developed area, to combine their resources with tha� of the people of the community and make a modern com munity in that part of Manitoba, !:le cause this is what will happen in the future. As uneconomic farm units phase out, as the fishi�g industry becomes more rationalized, you're going to have to have hopefully few. er and£1 tter modern communities throughout that wide area.

Madam Speaker, I couldn't resist this, because when the Honourable Member for Glad stone was reading some of this c arges of inaction on our part, here was one place where I can charge the Juggernaut of pow r des cended on our shoulders and told us plump where to go, and threw out all those concePts and dreams that we have been anticipating these last few years. However it's not oveJ yet.

Madam Speaker, the Honou�able Member from Gladstone mentioned - and I think this is a matter I would like to bring �Pi n debate, if I may, during the course of the next few several weeks - this matter of oJr modern educational system and the problems facing us. At this time, however, Madam speaker, large and extensive new policies in the field of ed ucation were outlined in the Thro�e Speech.

All of those who have spoken in the Speech from the Throne to date have dealt with matters of education, and I think this is as it should be because surely nothing can be of !greater importance to all of us today than the preparation of our youth in this day and age of change which is all about us . In the time allotted to me t�day, Madam Speaker, I wish to present a paper, a white paper referred to in the Throne Speech, a paper which I think is most significant because it sets out the broad policies Whi�c the government intends to implement.

Th.e elaboration of the matters mentioned in the T one Speech will be followed by legislation, and I would hope in the coming weeks that we can xamine these matters more closely as the material is be fore us. Madam Speaker, as thi is such an important statement of government policy, I would ask your indulgence and th indulgence of the House that I be permitted to read this statement, following which I wo�d like to table it and hopefully have copies in members' hands later this afternoon.

I Before addressing myself �irectly to the paper, Madam Speaker, I think members of the House are, like I, mindful o� the need for broad government action at this time in the history of our province. The w]rd, I think, that is the key, is the word "change". Our trustees, in the past year even, our teachers, our leaders in education at the university, and I believe the majority of the people of our province have, as I say, especially in the past year been turning more and more to senior government for looking for guide lines for the future.

There is no doubt that ithout broad approaches to our pz:esent administrative pro gram or structure at the local l vel, we are clearly on a collis ion course with our activities in curriculum development, and may I point out that curriculum development Madam Speaker, is development of course conten and so on, which is going on not only here but across North America, both the United States and. Canada.

It isn't the brain wave of the Department of Education or any official partic arly; it is the work of all these teachers and educators working together and keeping our system in concert with the rest of the country: -And uiiless we move forward in the manner that 1 will be outlining this afternoon, I say we are probably on a collision course. . . In the past, the little red choolhouse, the smaller schools, have all played their im- portant

part in the history of out province, but today, in 1966, with the final succes sful vote I .

17 2 February 11, 1966 MR . JOHNSON (Cont'd) : ..... in boundary division in the southeast corner of our province, there now is an administrative structure offering high school education to all our boys and girls, and this structure in the past seven years has resulted in an 85 percent increase in our province of the numbers of children in attendance at secondary schools, and it's on this basis and others upon which we proceed today to launch into what has been referred to as the second phase in the development of educational services for the people of our pro vince.

Madam Speaker, if I may be permitted, I would like now to read this statement to this Legislature . The aim of the government is to provide a modern, diversified system of education which will encourage and make possible the fullest development of every individual in Mani toba. The attainment of this objective will require the adoption of several major principles. In order to bring these principles to fruition, certain projects already established will have to be expanded, New ones will have to be launched. All will have to be maintained.

Some very significant steps toward these ends have been taken in phase I of the government's ed ucational program. As a cardinal principle of modern educational progressi on, there must be local or ganizations capable of es tablishing and operating diverse and complex elementary and secon dary school systems . To this end, consolidation has moved ahead very _well. In the past four years 176 school districts were dissolved and the lands transferred to adjacent achool districts while 116 school districts were merged to form 45 new consolidations.

The school divisional plan, as we have mentioned, has not been extended to every part of the province in which its establishment is a practical proposition. In each of these ten divisions, all control of schools is under a single authority. In the eleventh, the Dauphin-Ochre School Area, referred to by the Honourable Member from Neepawa, fiscal cont:J;ol and general policy is vested in a single board, although some matters of purely local concern are hand led by local boards. Under Bill 39 , which we passed last year, permissive legislation has been provided for the extension of the area plan to other divisions.

The extensive program of curriculum revision commenced in 1960 with the -General Course seminar has now been extended to every phase of the public school system. Semin ars have been held to plan the revision of the University Entrance Course, the Elementary Curriculum, and to plan another new program, the Occupational Entrance Course . At the same time the Commercial Vocational Course has been almost completely revised, as well as many of the technical areas of the industrial vocational program.

In all these areas nu merous pilot projects are under way and revised outlines and patterns are being phased in to the curriculum as they become available. To complement these developments the most comprehensive program of orientation and in-service training ses sions for teachers ever seen in this province has been introduced, using all available media, and at this point I would like to commend the Manitoba Teachers Society for the tremendous assistance given to the Department in the past year in this re gard. They have shown a high sense of profess ional responsibility.

Other major programs and measures which have been brought to a head under phase I are: the transfer of teacher training to the University of Manitoba; the establishment of the School for Deaf; expanded opportunities for technical training which will become available this year in the vocational centres at Brandon and The Pas, and in the additional space which will soon be provided by the addition of the fourth floor to the Manitoba Institute of Technology; the opening of Frontier Collegiate at Cranber:ry Portage; and the Junior Voca tional Secondary School at Winnipeg, the construction of which will begin this spring.

These substantial accomplishments provide a broad and solid base on which phase li IIRY now be erected. Bold new steps which will lead to much greater flexibility in the policies and methods by which major improvements may be introduced and established in local administration will be proposed. Legislation to be considered will place the affairs of 150 or more dis tricts (now under the Official Trustee) under their respective division boards , You will be asked to approve a similar course of action for 200 districts whose schools have been closed for two or more years.

At the present time, the enlargement of administrative units is moving through vari ous progressive stages in many areas of our province. To encourage the orderly accelera tion of this process, proposed permiss ive legislation will authorize the calling of a referen dum in any. division on a proposal to form a "sing1e �istrict" division board with a single

February 11, 196li 17 3 MR . JOHNSON (Cont'd) : ..... board which will have full responsibility for all fiscal and policy matters within the division,l thus establishing the same type of administration as now prevails in es tablished divisions w1th a single board. To meet particular situation�, additional legislative measures will be proposed to fa cilitate cons olidation of elementar� districts u nder a single board. In many areas of our province, it will be necessa ry to pt ovide greater impetus to the creation of graded elemen tary schools at the local level.

Ttthis end you will be as_ ked to authorize the establishment of a Boundaries Commission and ider authority will be granted for the employment of a superintendent by school divisions 1 Special provision will be made for the establishment of a pilot plan for reorganization of school administration in the Inter lake Area of Manitoba. Additional financial resourc�s will be made available to enable local boards to offer . the diverse programs envisaged. �he province will provide additional money for the founda tion program. The capital cost of all new vocational schools will be assumed by the province.

There will be an increas in the le el of capital grants for elementary and secondary school construction. In addition, these capital grants will be extended to include the construction of facilities for kindergarten clasl1 s. . Special grants will be prov!id d for divisions which operate with centralized fiscal and policy control, in cluding "sin gle-d' strict" divisions and school areas . The enrolment for mula for calculating grants for cl ses for the mentally retarded will be revised to permit grants for smaller classes.

Nearly 400 professional educators, including teachers, principals, supervisors, superintendents, inspectors, and Jniversity personnel are cooperating with a greatly ex panded curriculum staff to produc� new curricula for the en ti re public school system. In this number must also be includedl other professi onals such as doctors, dentists, nurses, and health educators.

This is the fnlY plug the doctors have had all Ses sion, The new courses now in use end the revised syllabi already introduced, undergoing pilot studies or in the process of development, reflect the advantages of new methods, tech niques a n d philosophies of educatidn. The best of modern develop:r1ents in fields such as language training, mathematics, science, the language arts, the sobial sciences and phys ical education are being introduced into the programs. Expert consultants in a number of fields have been and are being lnvited to assist curriculum committees � ith their work.

In a number of fields special materials are being prepared or existing materials are being modified to suit the particular needs of our programs. t In all these revision care is eing taken to ensure that quality of education does not suffer. New materials will contin e to be appraised in experimental and pilot classes whose teachers are carefully briefed and who are kept in touch with curriculum. committees through regular meetings and writ n reports and evaluations.

Those working at various levels will keep contact with one ahother to ensure the proper integration and development of the content of courses. � To assist in the implementa ion of the se programs, additional provision is being planned for the briefing, up-grad' g, and re -training of teachers both in in-service an d sum mer school or evening sessi ons. I Revisions in the regulations governing the school calendar will make it possible for a portion of the in-service train ing to be done durin g school hours.

Additional provision is being recommended to encourage profess ional advancement through summer and evening courses by e ]imination of fees and the more extensive provision of bur saries and scholarships. Thi s is lin teacher training. The work of th ose teachers engaged in curriculum committees has already been re., cognized by payment for summer seminars and arrangements for .the paying of subst itutes, so that these teachers may partici�ate in curriculum ses sions during school hours.

Fur ther recognition will be made pos;·b. le through the provision in departmental estimates of monies for honoraria for this wor . Vocational secondary school , each being large enough to offer an adequate number and variety of specialized 'programs, must be developed. The required number of these, dest ined for operation by combinah ons of divisions, will be built by the province in the next five years. Where necessa ry, re�idence space will be provided in these schools.

It is �xpected that from 25% !to 40% - and I think even high�r - of Man itoba's high school population will eventually enter vocational sec ondary schools . A Junior Vocational School for Winnipeg and the Metrobolitan Area is now in the final planning stages and con- I

17 4 February 11, 1966 MR . JOHNSON (Cont'd) : •••.. struction at provincial expense will begin this spring. Winnipeg is at pre sent adding to its Technical-Vocational High School with provincial grants covering almost the entire cost. A commercial high school will be o.:onstructed in Metro in the near future, also at provincial expense. There must be an adequate number of institutes offering training in trades and tech nologies. The sp ace originally provided at The Manitoba Institute of Technology is now fully occupied after its third year of operation.

Additional space has been fully converted for in structional use . A fourth floor is being added this spring. The construction of an Institute of Applied Arts will begin very soon on the campus of the Manitoba Institute of Technology. When this new unit is brought into operation there will be available at the same site " arts- based" courses at the Institute of Applied Arts and 1' science-based" courses in the pres ent Institute Building.

These tw o large components, each dis charging its own disti nctive. function, will jointly comprise one of the most complete and modern trade-technology complexes in this country. The pres ent capacity of the Manitoba Institute of Technology will be dou bled when the Institute of Applied Arts is opened. When the vocational centres at Bra ndon and The Pas are finished in the fall of 1966, the capacity for training in provincially operated trades and technology schools will have in creased five-fold over 1958.

With respect to high schools, the fullest possible sele ction of courses must be available to high school students. A new Univers ity Entrance Course is now being introduced in pilot stages. A completely new General Course, now being offered in the schools of the province. has produced its first graduates. Terminal courses are being developed for those who are not likely to complete a high school course. Courses suitable for vocational )ligh schools are being revised and re -developed.

A comprehensive guidance program has been prepared for the use of teachers in our schools and is about to be put into final form after two years of provis ional use and evaluation. Close contact between the univers ity and the high schools is ensured by the presence on the university Entrance Course curriculum committees of univers ity personnel. In addi tion, the content of the general course subjects and the expanding use of this course in our schools are under study by the university.

Discussi ons have been under way with the unive r sity for some time concerning developments both in Manitoba and elsewhere on high school courses and matriculation standards . These discuss ions will shortly be formalized by the initial meeting of a newly-formed Articulation Committee which will include representa tives of the university, the advisory board to the departments, secondary school principals, and the Department of Education.

Consi deration is also being given to the formation of a profess ional committee to coordinate the development of secondary school curricula for the province as a continuation and extension of the work of the Genera l Course, Univers ity Entrance Course and other semina rs. In fact, this is going ahead. As we move toward the esta blishment of stra tegically located academic high schools, two objectives come foremost to mind. First, in cooperation and consultation with divisional boards, we will see how presen t equipment and facilities can be converted for future use .

Secondly, some small high schools, which may not fit into the new concepts and goals, may have to be converted to elementary schools. The objective of the Government in this respect will be to make use of exis ting facilities wherever academic standards may be eco nomically maintained, but large new high schools will be authorized where necessary. Only under very exceptional circumstances will the Minister authorize the construc tion of small high schools.

It is also unlikely (in any division other than a Single-distri ct division) that authority will be granted for the construction of any more school accommoda tion until the question of centralized fiscal authority has been determined for that division. In addition, as elementary facilities are centralized, the proliferation of small schools for which there might not be further use would be avoided. The as sertion of such a policy would also forestall the accumulation of surplus space resulting from the transfer of students from academic to vocational courses when vocational secondary schools are established.

The government will seek the aid of the trustee s' and teache rs ' organiz ations in det er mining the nature and priority of programs which will lead to further equalization of educa tional opportunities throughout the province. Additional space for high school students from remote places within the :Frontier School Division, urgently needed at Cr anberry Portage, will be provided. In the area of adult education and manpower development, an extensive adult education

February 11, 1966 I 175 MR . JOHNSON (Cont'd ): ..... and Lanpower development program for those who have left institutions of formal education muslt be encouraged.

The current program includes the train ing and retraining of unemployed persons; the up-grading and retraining of employed people; high school courses for th ose wantJ. g to complete unfinished courses or programs; basic trai ning for early drop-outs to pre� are them for admission to trade training or for employment in better jobs; training in industry and on the job, and specialized training programs to attract new �ndustries or to aid in the convfrsion of existing ones to the use of new technologies or the manufacture of new products. All these programs are being expanded.

In that connection we are already into chemical technolo�y. Mining technology will be incorporated at The Pas, amongst others. j Two years ago the governme t instituted a policy of paying living allowances for unem ployed persons taking training. Ttse allowances are likely to be increased in number and amount in the coming year . A pilot program will be submitted to the Federal Government for the training, re-tra ining, and up- rading of tlnemployed, or under-employed persons as they define it, in the Interlake Area. Ie need for community and junior colleges is under consid eration.

The university complex, off ring as wide a range of academic and professional courses as it is practical to offer, must be well equipped and adequately staffed. In spite of a great increase in the amount of federal oney available to the university this year, there will be an increase as well in the amount of� ovincial money granted to the university. The university's capital expansion program will be ontinued. · The Council on Higher Lea rning has been study- ing university and college proble for several months now. The establishment of another university or additiqnal universitiJs is under active consideration.

With respect to teachers, th�re must be a well -traine d staff of competent teachers. There must be enough of them to Faintain all branches of our educational system. The re training programs which were started last year will be continued. They will be continued and expanded if necessary. In the re- training courses in mathematics offered by a TV. series this past year, 5, 000 teachers were idvolved,and l'm advised that 3, 000 have requested to be ex- amined on these programs. 1 An extensive program of re ' ruiting new teachers, now in the planning stage, will be launched within the next few weekf.

It will involve publici ty by radio, TV, newspapers and brochures. Visits will be made to high schools, to the university and to colleges. Personal interviews will be conducte d. In the attainment of this important objective we will seek the active participation of the Teache1s• Society, the Trustees' Association, Home and School Associations, and other interestefl groups. The recruitment of candidats for training as teachers will be strengthened by the pro vision of an increased number of bursaries in larger amounts.

The Government will also pay the tuition fees levied by the univ rsity � d the Manitoba Institute of Technology for full-year teache r training programs, and fbr teachers taking the faculty summer training combination 1� leading to a certificate. Fees w�ich have normally been levied by the Department for its own summer school courses for prof9ssional advancement will be discontinued. I Additional space will be pr0vided for teacher training programs. The new building opened last fal-l at the university,�and provided entirely at government expense, has a capacity ., for 800 students.

This spring co struction will begin on a new teacher training building at Brandon College with a capacity or 300 students. It will be built entirely at Government ex- pense. Additional space for the1r- aining of technical and vocational teachers will be provided in the new Institute of Applied Ar sa t the Manitoba Institute of Technology campus next year.

With the faculty building and the e developments, teacher training will be conducted in brand new facilities all created in the ast few years. . 11 An expanded program of sgecial training courses for technical and vocational teachers, which has been going on, will bj carried out immediately to meet the demands which will arise I from the opening of the Brandon and The Pas Schools and from the subsequent demands of vo- cational secondary schools. Ot er courses will be instituted for teachers in special fields.

The recently established ctmmittee on teacher education is now considering schedules and courses for a proposed two- ear teacher training program. This will be instituted at the earliest possible date . A revision of the scale of alar.y grants will enhance the ability of school districts to retrain trained teachers in our Jrovince. - The establishment of Frorltier School Division opened the way for the introduction of

17 6 February ll, 1966 (MR. JOHNSON cont'd) ..•... secondary education throughout our whole nortb country. Through the subsequent establishment of boundary divisions, th,e unquestioned benefits of the division system have been extended to the last part of the provin,ce, in whi,ch it is a practlcal proposition to establish school divisions. The progress of our educational system to complete divisional status throughout the entire province is a manifestation of that ultimate objective which we must ever keep before us making education available to all our people.

A residential School for the Deaf was recently opened. It provides facilities for our deaf children that are second to none in this country, Legislation will be brought forward to make educational services the right of the mentally retarded, Additional money in the form of grants w111 be provided to aid in defraying the cost. Rehabilitation programs are ·being extended to mentally handicapped as well as to physically handicapped persons .

In co-operation with the Indian Affairs Branch of the Federal Government, Manitoba is making tremendous strides in the integration of her Indian people into the school system and in the extension to them of the benefits now enjoyed by other citizens . The last Session of the Legislature gave to Treaty Indians all educational rights enjoyed by others in the province.

By local agreements , Treaty Indian children are now attending public schools in many parts of the province. · The master agreement between Indian Affairs and the Minister of Education authorized at the last Session of the Legislature, is working very well, The Indian Affairs Branch has indicated a desire to share in the services of Frontier Collegiate. A new central system of education for the community of Norway House, together with road and ferry services, is being developed as a joint program by Indian Affairs and the Manitoba Department of Education.

Training programs for Eskimos at the Manitoba Institute of Technology hav4:l worked. out very well. We are prepared to extend them on request. The expansion of the bursary and loan programs this year w�ll provide a greater source of financial support for all those who need it in order to proceed with their education. Madam Speaker, such factors as would hinder the attainment of the .foregoing objectives must be reduced as much as possible. Wherever possible they must be eliminated altogether.

The diversity of programs in Manitoba •s educational system and the greater diversity planned for the futurew 1ll provide opportunities for the development of the many different types of aptitude among our students and for the continued expansion of post secondary educational opportunities. The disadvantage of living a long way from school is rapidly being overcome. The ex tension of bus transportation to more and more students has opened up a new era in education, During the past seven years the number of children being transported to school has increased five-fold.

The operation of a residence at Frontier Collegiate, Cranberry Portage, is. bringing the benefits of education to many students from remote places who heretofore were denied this opportunity. The construction of residence facilities at the northern vocational centre at The Pas also recognizes the need for such away-from -home facilities for some students. The government has also agreed to include residence facilities as required in the prqposed regional vocational secondary schools . Lack of money should no longer be. a road block on the way to higher, education.

High school examination fees will be abolished; money will be available in the form of grants, bur saries, loans and living allowances; deserving students will be able to secure assi stance to attend· high school and after that, to go on to Univ ersity, M. I. T., Trade School, or to other forms of vocational or profess ional training, Physical deficiencies and defects once imposed substantial or insuperable handicaps to securing an education. These are now being modified or overcome by such excellent facilities, services and techniques as are now available to the deaf and the blind.

Schools and other public buildings are being designed to facilitate the movement of paraplegics.. Special courses have been developed which make it possible for those people with crippling physical disabilities to becqme self;-supporting in dignified and profitable employment. The educational opportunities which have been provided for those with physical disabili ties are being parallelled by those for the mentally retarded. This year legislation wiU give school divisions the authority and the responsibility for establishing and conducting classes for those who are classi fied as mentally retarded.

Programs will be established for both the educable group and the trainable group, ' The objective of our educational system is to provide maximum opporhl.nities for the de velopment of the ultiml).te potential of all our boys and girls, yo\U!g people ami :adultS! . To this end, we must march resolutely forward on several major fronts . In the fields of academic,

February 11, 1966 17 7 MR. JOHNSON (Cont'd) : ..... professional and technological training we must embrace and exploit bold, imaginative policies. j .we must provide the physical equipment and the t'rained staffs whereb. y these policies willl:je translated into vigorous and efficient programs of man power development. At the same time we must try to anticipate the demands for trained per sonnel which will arise from our *anging and expanding economy. This is a big task. While much has been accom lished, much remains to be done.

In order to meet current requirements in education, in ord r to be ready to meet the challenges of the future, the government is committed to the derelopment of a modern, progressive educational system. Throughout all areas of our provinbe, maximum educational opportunities must be made available to all our people. The � ople of this province will be the chief beneficiaries of this very extensive program.

I Madll.lll Speaker, it is with g�eat satisfaction that I present this paper to this Legislature, and I would ask the page boy to ta�e copies for the leaders of the parties and Madam Speaker, if she wishes, and I' ll try to have copies distributed. Thank you, Madam Speaker. MADAM SPE AKER : The H nourable the Member for La Verendry e. MR . VIELFAUR E: Madam �Speaker, may I first congratulate you and wish you well in the high tenure of your office, als� congratulate the mover and the seconder. I too, Madam Speaker, would like to make somej remarks on the Speech from the Throne.

It has been said that there was. nothing but criticism coming from this side and I will start differently by con gratulating the Government on cer�ain things. First, congratulations would be to the Govern ment and to the Minister of Welfa�� for announcing that he will bring legislation dealing with fathers leaving their families. T!"s might seem an insignificant matter but to me it is very important, and I think it is time t at some of these boys are brought to face their responsi bilities.

Many of them are going round today while either the department or the municipality is looking after their families, an it seems that at this time there is no legal way of getting at them and I am very anxious to 1' ee the bill that will be brought to deal with this particular. matter. On the same department, h wever, I am sorry that no mention is made of the Phys ical Fitness and Amateur Program. �think we have a wonderful personnel in that department that is trying to do a very good job. I had the opportunity to meet with them in the southeast with the members of the municipal go ernment.

I think there is a great interest in the program. Ho wever, to me there is a lack of policy and certainly a lack of budget, and Unless something is done the effectiveness of this p�ogram will certainly not be felt. Well, Madam Speaker, I� sorry but that's the end of my congratulations . I am most alarmed at the 1 ck of the constructive propositions as far as agriculture is concerned.

If one reads the Speech from the Throne ancf sees so little concerning agriculture, I wonder if the Minister was out f town or whether his colleagues didn't listen to him, but there certainly wasn't too much i the Speech as far as agriculture is concerned. Really, I can only find two paragraphs - tt first one that says there is a need for a Farm Management Consulting Service, "and further, my Ministers also intend to propose to the agricultural industry of the province, that co sideration be given to the establishment of an Agricultural Productivity Council.

" I · Well, Madam Speaker, I a� not criticizing these proposals as such but I am saying that at the moment the Department oftAgriculture is certainly lacking efficient and constructive programs. I would dare say tha no more than 20 percent of the farmers today are using most of the programs that are put out y the department. For example, take our Ag Rep situation today. I think it is impossible fdr an Ag Rep to be efficient the way we are set up today.

How can we expect a man who is ofterl given a territory be is not too familiar with, and where you f.ind.located in that district diffetent ki."nds of farmers, cattle rais�g, poultry, hogs, at the same time. very many different c ops, vegetables, small fruits, grain raising, and also he has to look after a lot of the 4-H work and quite often take

part in community activities. Be sides, our farming structure today has changed very much. You'll find in that very same dis trict a large COrPOrate farm, the very efficient and specialized farmer, the others that are still at the infancy stag e, if you fnight say, as far as farming is concerned, but who with some help would also progress and reich a better and more efficient stage of farming. And then at the same time you also have mrulty people who are Simply living on the farms and who, it is well-known, will not be there fot too many years.

Also, the Ag Rep in many cases has to look after reporting some of thefrograms and experiments of the department, and certainly it is impossible for .ll.im to achie e all these tasks. And from this I think that many of our pro gramsare not as beneficial as the should be, as far as the farmers who could benefit from them.

17 8 February11th, 1966 (MR. VIELFAURE cont'd) ..... Now, we have our soil testing program, and certainly I do n't think there is anythlng. wrong with soil testing. However, I would be very interested i n finding out.how many farmers With a quarter

section have actually had done the soil testing at $9. 00. As i matter of fact, I think it is helping mostly those who could afford soil testing themselves and not helping those who actually need that kind of help. Now, we have the milk produc tion. I know that milk pricing is a federal matter and there is not too much in that line that the Provincial Government can do. However, I think it is the responsibility of the Provincial Government to give the small farmers the guidanc e, give them the adv ice, and try and inform them of what the future is. Personally, I think there is a good future for milk prod uction.

I think we will see a greater demand for it and I think this would benefit a great many small farmers that we have in this province today provided· they were given the information, the trends , and also what will be required from them to be effective milk producers in the future. In many fields I feel that some of our efficient farmers are act ually ahead of the government as far as agricultural policies are concerned today . I think many efficient farmers are more modern than the adv ice that is coming from the government at this time.

We find that in many cases it is more beneficial, the programs that are being carried out by our most efficient farmers are ahead of the information you can get :from the govern ment. Now the Premier said yesterday that we weren't so badly off because after all we were getting a $50. 00 tax rebate. Well, Madam Speaker, let's be realistic. How did the $50. 00 come about? In 1964 we imposed $22 million new taxes in order to give $8 million back. I can't see how this is a relief for the farmer.

We simply were added $14 million in taxes and I can't see how the farmer can benefit from this, because if you take the increase in the price of gasoline, hydro electricity, the farmer has paid for his $50. 00 a long time before he gets it. And as my friends across suggested this afternoon, even then he has to pay it out and wait for quite a while before he gets it back. Now the First Minister also told us that we did n't seem to know if there were any ARDA programs going on in Matritoba.

Well, Madam Speaker, I asked the members of the govern ment if there are any ARDA programs going on in the southeast I would like to know where and what they're doing. Maybe I do n't know and I would certainly-- if I'm not smart enough to find out I wouldn't mind being told where they are, because as far as I'm concerned there is very little ARDA work being done in southeastern Manitoba. Madam Speaker, if I am to be frank, there is more than two paragraphs on agriculture because there is also water control, which is part of agriculture. And .what do we read about water control?

It says in one paragraph thitt we will be asked to establish a Manitoba Water Commission and in another paragraph that we will be asked to increase the staff. Well, Madam Speaker, I am here in my fourth Session and I don' t think there has been one Session where we di dn' t pass some legislation to either change the authority on water control or have some new authority somewhere along the line. But I must say with regret that as far as I' m concerned the more de partments we've added the less efficient it has been.

In southeastern Manitoba again, there are thousands of acres that in my estimation could be drained or could be irrigated with a minimum of expense, and ever since I have been elected to this Assembly I certainly haven't seen too much being done . It is true that it has changed from one authority to another but actually as far as I'm concerned it has only complicated the administration of thepolicy. I' ll give you a shining example of what I mean. I have one municipality in my own con stituency that had a bridge that had to be repaired last year.

They couldn't afford it so they had it on their budget for this year. It's a bridge on the Seine River. It's about 40 feet wide, and the municipality asked the government if they were eligible for some help. That's way back in January. The answer was that they would not be able to receive any help but that they would have to have a permit to build the bridge. Well, Madam Speaker, we are now in January of 1966 and the permit is still not there. There has been a lot of correspondenc e; there have been visits from many departments of the Water Control.

I personally made dozens of phone calls and I still cannot find out why a permit is not issued to build the bridge. This is after all a serious inconvenience to many farmers who have travelled many miles because the bridge had a limited capacity and they could not use it. Now I'm just·using this example to show that there is in many cases too much administration and certainly not enough work beirig done in that field.

February 11th, 1966 17 9 (MR. VIELFAURE cont'd) . .... Madam Spe aker, I feel that t e government of this pr ovince is failing seriously in leader ship in the field of agriculture. It us been said that this Throne Spe ech is a blueprint for Manitoba. I am worried about the �tructure that will be built from this blueprint, especially in agriculture. . ..... continued on next page I I

180 February 11th, 1966 MR. DESJARDINS: Madam Speaker , I would like to move , seconded by the Honourable Member from Gladstone that the debate be adjourned. MADAM SPEAKER: Would the Honourable -- Is the Honourable Provincial Secretary wishing to speak? HON. MAITLAND B. STEINKOPF, QC (Provincial Secretary) (River Heights): Yes. I'd like to -speak on the motion .. ...... . MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable the Provincial Secretary. MR.

STEINKOPF: Madam Speaker, first may I add my felicitations to those already tendered to you and add my wish that the dignity and charm with which you grace the position will be graced for many, many years to come. I also wish to congratulate an old friend in the personage of my friend the new Lieutenant-Governor. I know that he will carry on the high traditions of that office in a very exemplary manner. Also my compliments to the mover and the seconders of the Speech from the Throne, the Honourable Member for Souris- Lansdowne and the Honourable Member for Churchill.

Madam Speaker , for those of us who were born and brought up here and enjoy a way of life that is second to none in any place in the world, we wonder sometime how the Opposition think and what they are thinking about, and why they continue to deprecate a province as fair as this one, the Province of Manitoba. This government has been in office for some eight years , is one of action and because of its being in action it must by necessity do things; and I have always felt that it' s far better to be concerned about too rapid growth than about no growth at all.

As I reminisce over the few ses sions that I have been here, in my experience in politics, I am reminded more and more of the depressive thinking that has gone on not only within the chamber but outside. I recall only too well in my last election that the presi dent of the local River Heights Liberal Constituency mailed out a letter on September 5, 1964 that was nothing but a document of blue ruin. He sent it to all the constituents of River Heights and was very indicative of the type of thinking that I have found persists with the members of the Li beral Party.

He bemoaned the fact, and he used the phrase that the Town of Thompson is in danger of becoming a ghost town, and in this he exhorted the constituents of River Heights to rise up and I suppose vote against the government because he'd blamed them for causing the Town of Thompson to become a ghost town. There were two other matters in the letter and that was all, and all of them had to do with the rather negative and depressing approach to conditions in the Province of Manitoba. We've heard a lot in the last few days about the population of Manitoba and particularly about the population in the City of Winnipeg.

It is a well known fact that in times of depression a population doesn't shift. A stranger or a man who moves from one town to another finds that in times of depression that he has to wait a lot longer to get a job than a local resident, so he is much more prone to stay put and remain where he is.

However, the situation is reversed in times of a booming economy such as is now enjoyed, not only in Manitoba but all over the world, and young people are very anxious to leave one area for another until they find the greatest scope for their talents and that usually follows the highest rate of pay notwithstanding that that pay may not end up in a better or happier way of life. But it is a mark of social distinction to be able to say when one graduates from a university or high school that I am receiving higher pay than my associate or colleague .

This government has been accused, Madam Speaker, of many, many things by the Grits and I admit that going at the rapid rate that this government does, it' s bound to make the odd mistake. But there is this one interesting accusation that has me a bit puzzled. Page 104 of Hansard, I read this interesting statement attributed to the Honourable Member for Emerson where he says , "Winnipeg with a 2. 9% increase was the lowest recorded. We're last. Noth ing to be proud of. And why are we last? I think the government should shoulder the responsibility for that; ineptitude, inaction.

" We are being blamed in effect for ineptitude and inaction because the population in Greater Winnipeg has not kept pace with other parts of Canada, and other cities. He says "inaction" , that's what he said that this government is guilty of. What does he mean? That the small population increase is the sole responsibility of the 36 men and women who make up this government? I am sure he doesn't mean that. I know we are good and we act fast but the only things we can't expedite are the laws of nature.

Does the Honourable Member think that the 42 children of 13 cabinet ministers , an average of 3. 2 children per cabinet minister is lower than the average for the cabinet minister say in Saskatchewan? Does he think that we've laid down on the job? Does he think that this govern ment transfers employees and their families to jobs outside of Winnipeg, to other cities ? If

February 11th, 1966 I 181 (MR. STEINKOPF Cont' d) ..... he l oes, I think he is wrong. Does he think that this govern ment is resisting in any way, an e fsy airline communication with our natural market which lies to the south of us , so as to eneourage people and industrialists who want to invest, to live and tour in Manitoba, from cob ing here? If he does , he is wrong. .

This government is responsi� le for giving the people in Manitoba, wherever they may be , in Snow Lake, in Dauphin, in Emerson or Swan River , in Brandon and Steinbach, in Beausejour or any town or area y�� want to mention , the highest standard of living they have ever known and this without a sale tax, a security that they have from depres sion that has never been known in these areas b fore and from the fears of old age, sickness and hospita lization?

If his figure of 2. 9 incr ase for Winnipeg is correct -- and I agree it should be more -- it' s not the fault of the men and women who form the government of the Province of . I Manitoba nor is it the fault of the eivil serv ice. If there' s any doubt, he may be interested as proof in a pic ture that shows thje children of the cabinet mi nisters -- all 42 of them, all in one picture -- and I assure him it_l was no mean feat to get them all in the picture at the same time.

This is a historical remin9 er that this government alone is not responsible for the slow rate of growth of our population and certainly must not share all of the blame. I haven't heard one thing in � e many hours of vain listening from the Opposition that would indicate they know how to a� inister the multiplicity of progressive matters that Mani tobans need and require. As a m �tter of fact, I have heard lots and lots that is quite to the contrary.

And I can almost, or anyone of us can open Hansard at any page and if it is quoting one of the speakers from the Oppdsition, there one will find recorded the plans of the Opposi tion for this province and any student would be appalled that his future might be entrusted into such amateurish hands.

The/Honourable Leader of the Opposition said in his statem ent the other day, and again yesterday, that if he were elected to the posi tion of the Prime Minister or the Premier of this p:l.-ovince, that he would turn himself into a travelling salesman and he would take his credentials! which may be his many press clippings on Grand Rapids and Goose Preserves with him , a.hd go around the world and try and sell Manitoba as an attractive and profitable location for plants and industry. The Opposition makes every plat form of their Party, everyone tha!t they suggest, pass the test of depression.

Unless it contains the most unfavourable stktistics to the province, unless it predicts blue ruin, it can't make the Liberal platform. / Ever since 1945 , the Liberal Party in Manitoba have made two provisions for the on coming great depression and the�have followed these two in everything in all of their thinking.

They have made risking their cap tal in provincial expansion a next to negligible approach, and the interesting.thing about it s not only the members who have sat on the Liberal benches these last 20 years have had thatf.thinking, but a very hard core of the Liberal old-time Party group who advise on financial ma ers , and all of them have felt since 1945 that we must be awfully careful because the depr ssion is certainly imm inent or around the corner. Twenty years have gone by and they now eel and they know that they have been wrong.

And one can detect a change inside and outside of this House in the thinking of the old Liberal guard in the last few weeks and few months, t the time has come for them to start thinking that maybe the depression is not coming and we'd better get on with the job of building Manitoba. This kind of thinking, if it had been pe itted in Manitoba these last eight years, would have put the province so far behind -- and that is notwithstanding the fact that it isn't going at the same rate as we'd all like to see it, b��t for other reasons -- that we would have had that much more of a problem to try and catch up.

And if that cartoon of the Free Press had -- that was shown to us by the Honourable Member for Gladstone-Neepawa just a little while ago -- had been in the paper today under another re me, I think even the snail would have been ahead of Mani- toba. But in their thinking, as sual, they are a little late.

A new optimistic and energetic I group, even in the Liberals, bu�essme n of a younger breed of tlie Liberal Party are work- ing for Manitoba and they like to fashion themselves as Roblin Liberals - not just a few of them - but I would guess at leas 50 percent of the Federal Liberals in Manitoba who are young businessme n will vote for the Ro lin Government at the next election. The old guard is con- cerned, and well they may be , but their concern is just about 20 years too late. Eight years ago Manitoba J.ras a province looking for trouble .

This government found it; did not have too far to look. lt recognized it and thank goodness it thwarted it. Urban bli ght - the bane of scores of m�jor Canadian me tropolises - ever so gradually had begun its stealthy invasion of the core of the City of Winnipeg. Look at it now, and look at the plans for its devolopm�t. The po"11"111ea of fi�do here, the oightma� of a lar"' pero�t of

182 February 11th, 1966 (MR. STEINKOPF cont' d) .... Manitoba' s population, is licked, or it's almost licked for all time to come in this part of the province and in other parts of the province as well. The depression in our secondary and building industries was recognized and encouraged by the training of help, by financial assistance and by encouragement, by closer liaison between government and industry in the recognition of their problems. And what do we have now? A very strong and healthy situation in the secondary industry that is second to none.

There are more people employed in the garm ent and the footwear and leather industry in the City of Winnipeg, the Province of Manitoba, than all of the other three western provinces combined. The list is long. In every department there is progress and this progress has been accom plished not alone - the government is, as I have said before the 36 men and women that make up the government- but also--of course , with the people who have the work of looking after the administrative detail from day to day. A good test of any well run business and a profitable business is how management gets along with its workers.

Manitoba gets more per civil ser vant dollar than any province in Canada; and when you consider that these dollars are substan tial, the payroll of the Civil Service in Manitoba this last year was $30 ,4 33 , 635 - a very nice substantial part of the total budget - and compare this with a comparable figure in Saskatchewan of $40, 18 3, 000 and the staggering amount of $64, 748 , 000 in Alberta, over twice the cost in Alberta that we have here in Manitoba, one sees what good results we are getting from the people who actually are doing the day to day work.

Manitoba can still attract able men and women to the Civil Service even though some times the pay and the attractions in other provinces and other places are more attractive. In Saskatchewan recently there was a real shake-up and a house cleaning in the Civil Service. This hasn't been necessary, or wasn' t necessary in Manitoba in 1958 and it's not necessary in 1966. (Interjection) Thousands , but it was done. Thousands of civil servants in Manitoba like the clear crisp decisions of the Roblili government and they enjoy their work here.

Manitoba also gets more Manitobans, the taJq:Jayer gets more for his members and his cabinet ministers dollar than do the taJq:Jayers of any comparable jurisdiction and by a big margin. $4, 800 for members and $12,5 00 for cabinet ministers is not a huge pay in 1966 by any comparable standard.

The recent announcement of another plant -- I saw it in this morn ing's paper -- located in the Province of Saskatchewan and announced by Premier Thatcher of a multi-million dollar industry in the Saskatoon area is another indication of what this province is bound to be up against in its competition which seems to be now a wide open fight to the finish between the new Province of Saskatchewan, or what one thinks is the new Province of Saskatchewan, and the Province of Manitoba. The headlin

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	27-5-7
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	27th 5th hansardpdf 7.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	41f6de1929b59b9c680b85143ff8cd12a05b0f10

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