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March 20, 1981 The House met at 10:00 A.M. !1-lr. Speaker in the Chair. ~R. SPEAKER (Simms): Tape ~o. 503 NM - 1 Order, please! STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS: ~R. SPEAKER: SO~!E HON. MEMBERS: ;1P.. N. 'tHNDSOR: Th e hon. Minis ter of De ve lopment. Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker, I am releasing today ~he Report of the Royal Commission of Enquiry into the ~inancial LOsses of Marystown Shipyard Limited. Before commenting upon the report in some detail, I must stress that the operation of Marystown Shipyard has been of significant concern to government during the past few years and has warranted detailed consideration.

Since 1972, Marystown Shipyard Limited has incurred a gross operating loss of almost $32 million (before government grants of $13.5 million and a recent government equity infusion of $8 million). Major losses started to become evident when the com~any commenced its first contract with a Norwegian company for anchor handling tugs and offshore supply vessels. At the time, much of the loss was attributed to difficulties in acquiring drawings on time and to internal management, technical and administrative support systa~s.

In late 1979, when government appointed an expanded board of directors, all reports indicated that substantial progress in these areas was being made and significant improvements in performance were resulting. The credibility of these reports was destroyed when, in a matter of three months, the financial status of the company changed from a projected loss of $1 million to $5.8 million for the year 1979-80. This was later adjusted to a loss of $8.9 million to reflect additional known losses to be incurred in 1980-81 on the same contract. ·1 ~ ~ n .. .,

.March 20, 1981 Tape No. 503 ?~}'! - 2 .MR. NINDSOR: This drastic turn of events resulted in the board and government undertaking a comprehensive review of the company. A task force of senior government officials was appointed in May of 1980 and a Royal Commission of Enqui~J in July of 1980.

The task force submit~ed its report in July of 1980 after concluding that despite the severe dmmturn in the world shipbuilding industry and the heavy subsidization of that industry in many countries thereby making it difficult for Canadian yards to compete, the financial losses of the yard were attributable mostl y to poor management, an unworkable organization structure, inadequate systems and procedures, and an unrealistic financial structure resulting in excessive interest costs. ~eco~~enda~ions, in

summary form, included: (1) replace the then managing director; (2) reorganize the company; (3) appoint an interim chief executive officer while the search for a permanent replacement was conducted; (4) embark upon a programme of systems and management impro vement; ( 5) re- finance the company via a combination of long term arrange­ ments with the private sector and additional government involvement. The Royal Commission Report: The Royal Commission consisting of Mr. R.J. Olivero as Chairman, Dr. F.~v. Russell and Mr. J.G. Day as members, was appointed in July of 1980 with a mandate to enquire into all matters related to the financial losses of the yard. 'j it~ 9 ''I

~larch 20,1981 Tape No. 504 AH-1 HR. IHNDSOR: The Commission, after a series of public and private hearings has n01v submitted its report. In ;r:any respects, the Commission confil."!lls the validity of the Task Force's findings and recommendations and, indeed, implicitly supports the actions taken during the past year.

To quote from the Commission's Report,and I quote, "The attention of the Comission has been focused in the main other than on the activities of the present interim senior management and the prese::J.t Chairman and Board of Directors who, like the Commission, are seeking remedies for an unacceptable situation." The significant findings, recommendations and conclusions of the Commission are __ as _ follows: F'~dinqs: (

l) During the period of 1967-1980 (September) the company has incurred an actual cash loss of $31,841,000. From 1973 to March of 1980, 40.25% of this loss was attributable to interest charges. ( 2) The principal cause of losses is the lack of policy direction (strategic planning) and a failure to identify the main purposes and objectives of the company.

(3) Managerial incompetence at senior levels denied the company the benefit of a strategic plan and is also reflected in inadequate operating procefures, policies, practices, and systems.

(4) Matters outside the control of the company also contributed to the losses. These include: (

a) Inadequate capital structure; (

b) High borrowing costs; (

c) Diminished demand in the marketplace ; (

d) Lesser level of subsidies at home as contrasted to these abroad; (

e) Lack of availability of acquisition finance for Canadian flag shipowners; ·1 4 J li ''I .. ''I .. , ..

~larch 2::1,19 81 :·!R . I"Th"DSOR : Tape ~;o . 50~ AH -2 (

f) Tax and oth er legislative factors encouraging tariff !ree encry o: ve ssels for use under the Canadian flag; (

g) Lack of readily accessible research and develo pment resources . The Recommendat'or.s (

a) T~a~ t~e Chairman o: ~~e 3oard noc ~e a gover~en~ o!ficial and that the selection of board mambers be ~ade on the basis of pro: essional skills in areas of importance to the company's operations . (

b) The the shipyard should net be utiliz ed soley !o r oil rig cocstruction or exclusively as a centre for oil and gas related activities. (

c) That the gover::."'UUIent should :10t dive st itsel! of die shipyard and , in the event of a partial divesciture , to only ~ewioundland fish companie s. (

d) Th at a research and development project be es cablished, within an overall ocean indu st ry/marine policy, wi~~ fu nding of app roximately $500 ,0 00 to des ign and develop in consultation with potential customers, two standard tra wler s. 'II;~ 'i .. .. •.

:-!arch 20. 1981 Tape 505 PK - 1 ~!R. ~. WINDSOR: The Commission made a number of other rP-commendations of lesser significance related to budqeting, board committees, salary of the chief executive officer,organization, employment practices and operational and management improvements. Most of these are not of a policy natu=e and can be acted upon by the board and management. Conclusions:

(1) It is essential that government establish a trawler replacement financing programme that relates to federal subsidies and can be incorporated with the marketing efforts of the shipyard.

(2) There is a very serious need for an integrated provincial government policy related to ocean industries which would take into account production of vessels for the fishing and offshore oil and gas industries, manpower training and other related matters. The above conclusions are identified specifically because they are aimed at government for action. The Commission outlined a number of other conclusions related to markets, federal government assistance to the industry, ~1anagement, workforce morale and other operational factors.

It should be noted again that many of the conclusions of the commission are similar to those of the task force, the board and government itself during the past year. Hence a number of the operational recommendations have already been or are in the process of being implemented. Others,of course, especially those related to a marine industry strategy, are far reaching and will require considerable effort on the part of government prior to full implementation. In any event, the following steps have been taken during the past year:

(1) The Managing Director has been replaced with an Interim President (Mr. T. G. Whelan). 'l its~ ' 'J

March 20, 1981 Tape 505 PK - 2 MR. N. WINDSOR:

(2) An extensive search for a new permanent chief executive officer is now concluding.

(3) The financing of the company has been restructured to reduce its debt servicing load.Governrnent has invested $8 million in equity and given assurances to enable further significant private sector funding. ( 4) The recommended organization structure has been partially implemented ana is now awaiting the permanent chief executive officer before full implementation.

(5) A planning consultant has been retained to work with management to ensure proper L~plementation of a production planning system placing particular emphasis on obtaining full participation in ~~e process by the management team.

(6) A special committee of the board has submitted recommendations to the shareholders with respect to a possible long-term direction for the company which included development of standard design hulls for the fishing and offshore oil and gas industries and a more planned approach with the fish companies with respect to trawler repairs.

(7) Preliminary discussions have been held with representatives of both industries regarding the desirability and feasibility of the approach suggested above with encouraging responses. Other recommendations, Mr. Speaker, both from the task force and the commission of a housekeeping nature will be addressed as time permits. I would now like to comment on the important recommendations and conclusions of the commission which require government attention . . , ~ 5 2_o_ .. .. .. , .. '

_\1.<rc h 20, 1981 Tape No. 506 SD - 1 ~!R. N. IHNDSOR : The Co~~ission recommends that the Chairman of the Board should not be a government official and that the Board members should be selected on the basis of professional skills in areas of importance to the company's operations. I believe that a good cross-section of available expertise, embracing the legal, engineering, and accounting professions and the local private construction and boat­ building industry is already in place on the current Board.

I am further convinced that the present Board has worked diligently on this serious problem and should be kept intact to continue its substantial contrubution to date. I agree with the Commission's recommendation that the shipyard should not be utilized solely for oil rig construction or exclusively as a centre for oil and gas related activities. I stress, however, that if the company is to be viable and grow it must be aiming to take advantage of the market potential to the ~xtent practical.

While the company should not be allowed to minimize its service to the fishing industry, it should be doing everything possible to take advantage of offshore oil and gas activity. With respect to the recommendation which favours continued government ownership with emphasis on standard design hulls, I am of the opinion that continued government ownership, in the long term, is not necessary and indeed may not be desirable.

I certainly disagree that in the event of divestiture, it is necessary to ensure ownership participation bv the local fishing industry in order to ensure in turn that industry is appropriately serviced. I do, however, agree with the concept of a standard design hull but rather than two trawler designs as suggested, I feel that a standard trawler design along with a standard supple vessel design will offer the company more flexibility in the long term. Hence, I support the proposed research and development program proposed with the objective of 1 i+ ~ l ''I ''I

~arch. 2.0 , 19.81 Tape. No. 506 SD - 2 ~R. 1-JI.NDSOR: developing two standard hull designs - one. for the fishing industry and one for the offshore oil and gas industry as opposed to the two trawler designs proposed. I also feel that government's policy of divestiture should be pursued, Finally 1 I agree with the Commission ~ s conclusions regarding the desirability of a trawler re.placemen.t financing program and the. ne.ed for an intergrated provincial government poli·cy related to ocean industries.

Nevertheless, the cost of such an initiative has to be carefully defined and evaluated by government in relation to the parctical benefits. The Future of the ~1arystown Shipyard: There. is no doubt that government has some very difficult decisions to make. with respect to the. shipbuilding industry in this Province in general, and Marystown Shipyard Limited is particular. ~1any of the. operational problems., while significant, have. been identified and quantified by the Task Force, the Commission and t:fl..c. Board. These can and are being acted upon and imorove.rnents have. and will result.

The prospects for the future are dependent upon external factors and are muchmore difficult to quantify and evaluate. The Commission states in its report that "for Marystown Shipyard Limited to continue to obtain n.ew business using present policies and production methods: will ensure. that the company continues to incur losses. Kowe.ver, alt.ernatives for the Shipyard are available and improved J?rospe.cts for the company are possible." .I l~ :..: ~,. .., .. I .,

.. , :·iarc!l 20, 1931 Tape No. 507 EL - l 3!R. \HNDSOR: The implication, looking only at the recommendations of the Commission, is that by contin- uing the Yard as a Crown Corporation and by concentrating on •. i t•.vo standard design trawlers along with improvements with res- pect to the Board of Directors,nanagement and operating and production systems and procedures, the alternative to continued losses can be a reality. It is my opinion, and indeed this seems to be confirmed in the

section o~ the report entitled Industrial and Institutional Factors which offers an excellent insight into the complexities of the world shipbuilding in- dustry, that this is an over-simplification. ., The fact is that for some years there has been an extreme over capacity in the industry world- wide, and this has prompted most countries to formulate ex- cessively generous subsidy programs in order to keep their shipbuilding industry from collapse.

Canada has not kept pace with other countries in this regard.Rather, in Canada, the shipbuilding subsidy offered by the Department of In- dustry, Trade and Commerce has continued to decline from 50% in the early 70's to 35> 1 to 20% and, as of July 1980, currently sits at 9%. Fur~~r, no significant protection is offered to Canadian shipyards in terms of tariffs, etc., on imported vessels as is the case in our competing countries.

Perhaps most important is the fact that no domestic financing ~ackaqes are available- compared to packages at 8.5 per cent interest rates in many shipbuilding nations •N'i th which we compete. •. 1 With few exceptions, the Canadian industry has scrambled after offshore business made possible by the financing package offered foreign owners by the Export Development Corporation. The unfortunate irony of this is that, as stated above, Canadian companies have not been afford- ed similar financing and have been forced to look to yards ~n other countries such as Poland, Spain, South Africa, and Japan ., ~ I~ w :J

~larch 20, 1981 Tape No. 507 EL - 2 )lR. WINDSOR: for reasonably priced (in world market terms) vesses. In my opinion, this is embarrassingly short-sighted as a national policy given the tremendous development potential for marine industry in the three major oceans which surround Canada. With respect to the overcapacity situation, there is some evidence, as the Co~Tiission confirms, that this is being eradicated and in some sectors a balance between capacity and demand is even now a reality.

While this is encouraging, I am convinced that we should not be overly confident that this potential tu~n-around will ~ave an auto­ matic impact on Marystown Shipyard. While the shipyard is sitting firmly at the centre of a potentially extensive market for new offshore trawlers and supply vessels, its future as a new ship construction facility can only realistically be dis­ cussed in the context of the world shipbuilding industry and the extent to which the Canadiar. Government supports the industry.

The truth of the matter is that the last of the Company's new construction contracts is due for completion in December of this year, and that the outlook with respect to new construction is bleak unless substantive and immediate change is forthcoming in Canada with respect to subsidy support and financing packages at lower and competitive interest rates. 14~G ·--, ··. ''I

March 20, 1981 Tape No. 508 DW - 1 M~. N. WINDSOR: Indeed the prospect for substantial lav-offs, with the yard functioning solely as a re?air facility is auickly approaching reality. Government is cognizant r~ ~~P gravity of the situation facing the yard and mindful of the fact that the facility is a critical contributor to a buoyant economy on the Burin Peninsula and a cradle of highly skilled workforce which has been built up with considerable time and investment.

In further addressing this very complex issue over the next few months, Government: (1) has directed the Board to pursue development of standard hull designs, for trawlers and sup~ly vessels, to the degree of detail required to enable determination of market accepta­ bility; (2) has directed the Department of Development to prepare a comprehensive divestiture package and plan aimed at ensuring that the yard will continue as a vibrant part of the economy of the Burin Peninsula.

The divestiture effort will not be restricted to fishing comDanies but will take into account the full potential of the yard and the ability of the prospective purchaser to bring an extensive marketing, and research and develoDment capability; (3) will assess the financial implications of a comprehensive financing package for trawler replacement and offshore supply vessel construction; (4) will not relent in its efforts to convince the federal government that a more extensive and focused orograrnrne of support is required to ensure the survival and growth of the Canadian shipbuilding industry.

This support could include both direct financial input as well as regulations with respect to tariffs governing use of non-Canadian flag ships operating in Canadian waters. Other Eastern Canadian shipyards are in situations similar to Mar ystown, and if such support is forthcoming, Marystown Shipyard will gladly compete in a competitive Canadian industry. 'I if S 7 ..

t.t.._. March 20, 1981 Tape No. 508 DW - 2 MR. N. WINDSOR: If our efforts to bring about such measures are not successful in the relatively short term, I must honestly tell you that I can see no medium term future for the yard except as a viable repair and minor steel fabri­ cation facility. Such an event implies the elimination of a significant number of jobs. In conclusion, I 1vould like to reiterate t:he critical points: ( 1) since 1972 ~-1arystown .Ship­ vard Limited has incurred a gross operating loss of almost $32 million. 40.25 per cent of this loss was attributable to interest charges.

To meet this. loss, government has contri­ buted $13.5 million in grants; a recent equity infusion of $8 million; and credit support to permit bank financing for the Dther requirements; (2) government has given serious and detailed consideration to the yard and is thankful for the efforts of the Task Force, the Board, and the Commission of Enquiry in identifying the serious problems at the yard and for taking action where aporopriate; (3) operational improve­ ments will continue to be made by the yard's Board andmanage­ ment, but these alone will not be sufficient; (4) the company's new construction contracts are due for completion in December of this year, and even though every effort is being made to attract new orders 1 '] ~ s il .., .. , .. , .. ,

i·!arch 20, 1981 Tape No. 509 NM - 1 ~!R. l'liNDSOR: construction is bleak unless substantive and immediate change is forthcoming in Canada with respect to subsidy support and financing packages at lo•.;er and competitive interest rates. Government is cognizant of the gravity of the situation facing the yard and mindful of the role it plays in the Burin Peninsula economy. Government has directed the board to pursue the development of standard hull designs, for ~rawlers and supply vessels, to the degree of detail required to enable determination of market acceptability.

The Department of Development has been directed, using whatever expertise is necessary, to puruse divestiture to the private sector, taking into account the full potential of the yard and the ability of the prospective purchaser to bring an extensive marketing, and research and development capability; and to report back to government within three months. Government will evaluate financing packages, will make every effort to convince the federal government that a more extensive and focused programme of support is required to ensure the survival and growth of the Canadian shipbuilding industry.

Success here is required whether the yard is owned by government or the private sector. Should these initiatives, individually or in combination, not be successful in the relatively short term, I can see no medium term future for the yard except as a viable repair and minor steel fabrication facility \vith the resultant reduction in the number of employees. Mr. Speaker, I now table the Report of the Royal Commission of Enquiry into the Financial Losses of Marystown Shipyard Limited; in so doing, note that '! ;t ~ ! .. , .. ..

March 20, 1981 Tape No. 509 NM - 2 MR. WINDSOR: page 149 has been removed because it contains company confidential information of a technical nature which is not relevant to the body of this report. Except for that, Mr. Speaker, the report is as submitted by the Royal Commission. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! SOME HON. ~..EMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. member for Burin-Placentia West. MR. HOI,LETT: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: Give it to them 'Don'. Hea ve it at the .r,. •· MR. HOLLETT: Mr.

Speaker, I think I should say first that on behalf of certainly the workers in the yard in Marystown and everybody who lives on the Burin Peninsula and elsewhere in this Province, that they are happy that eventually this report has been tabled. It has been a matter of great concern, the operation of the yard, for some years. And listening to and reading along with the minister when he was presenting his sort of long and detailed,to a certain extent,Ministerial Statement this morning,it puts one in a very difficult position simply because

whereas his statement is confined to probably four areas mainly, without having the full report to read it is difficult to tell whether government did 1 it 0 lj

~larch 20,1981 Ta pe No. 510 AH-1 MR. HOLLETT: accept or reject and to what extent the Task Force findings. Mr. Speaker,I would just like to make a few comments in the general sense, and of course after reading the complete report I ~~ill be having, I am sure,much more to say about it.

But the fact that the Marystown shipyard has been having troubles is not n~· ,I do not think,to anybody,certainly not on the Burin Peninsula .And in essence, I think the records show that the ~nion and other interested people in the area have asked for some time to have an enquiry and to let people know what has gone on and wha~ will go on. I will refer my comments this morning to what is going on and we feel should go on.

The minister in his statement, in particular on page ll 1 related to ship construction,and I quote; "I must honestly tell you that I can see no medium term future for the yard except as a viable repair and minor steel fabrication facility,"

Whereas \'le are all aware of the troubled shipbuilding industry in our country and what is happening elsewhere in the world, there are a lot of people in Newfoundland who look upon that yard as being terribly important to the future of this Province.especially if we relate it to what is'our number one priority , of course, the fishery. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. HOLLETT : And

whereas to a certain extent I agree with a designed hull for the fishing industry that would be of standard nature, I would trust that the yard would not be limited to building only that particular type hull .Whereas a standard design can be there that you can put various accessories on, we have to leave it open also for people with imagination who want to specilize in the fisheries, who want to have their own design constructed. But if there is only going to be a '] 4 G' l ''I ''I •·.

~larch 20, l9Sl Tape No . 510 AH -2 ~!R . HOLIZ'!'T : ?Olicy for a one design hull for both the fishery and offshore service,then there are 9roblem s in chat I can see immediately . Now , r-tr . Speaker, not in any vindict ive way either but with the minister's statement here in relation to accept a viable repair , I ju s!: cannot resist to say that I think the government: ' s timing ~~as ve!:y, very poor \vhen they come out and guaran;:;ee a :ecierally owned £ard, the C~ Dockyard - :.l:K . IVAP~~E:o! : In St . John's . ~L~ .

HOLLETT : - $10 million to go in competition with their own yard,which il> in trouble . il..nd I might add for the :-ecord a.lso that the CN Dockya:-d in St . John's \•as in nc:> rianaer of closing down. 1-IR.NEARY: Jl>. guaranteed loan too . A.~ HON . \'fFMBER : In no danger of clos.:.ng dO\·m? MR . HOLLETT : No, it cannot close do\-rn because it is part of the Terms of Union.as the hon . gentlemen opposite know,and the fe deral government's responsibility is co maintain the dockyard in St. John's . And i£ I re.'llember correctly what t"e hen . 1-tinister of Finance (D:- . Collins) said, the CN Dockyard in St .

John 's ·1402 • ..

~larch 20, 1981 Ta9e :::-;o. 511 SD - 1 MR. D. HOLLETT: has to stand on its own two legs. &~d I would like to inform them, 11r. Speaker, that it only has to stand on its own two legs, l<lr. Speaker, in relation to the amount of subsidy that the 9arent CrO\vn corporation cares to give it as it does with Via Rail, the telephone service, the Gulf ferry,and there is financing available for that type o= thing. S0~1E HO~. MEI1BERS: Hear, hear. MR. HOLLETT: So in passinq I just would like to make that comment, Mr. Speaker. I will, ~r. Speaker, congratulate the minister in taking this re?ort to the stage it is.

His predecessors were asked indirectly- his predecessors knew what was transpiring at the yard to a certain extent- but the minister, in conjunction with a lot of concerned people in this Province, I think took the only course available to him. And I am speaking, I am sure, on behalf of everybody on the ?eninsula- and I am sure they cannot wait to see the detailed report-and on behalf of the workers and others there, they also have this report this morning and I am sure they will be scrutinizing it quite closely over the next few days.

I know I will,and on the weekend, I am sure, I will be holding some meetings with some people on it and after that, Mr. Speaker, I 'N"ill take advantage of some of the time in this hon. House to say exactly h01v I feel and I am sure I will be representing the views of a lot of people on the Burin Peninsula. SOHE HON. MEMBERS; !:-1R. SPEAKER (Simms) Thank you very much. Hear, hear. Any further statements. Order, please! In the Spea~er's gallery today we have a senior class of eight students who are from Spain, St. Pierre, Venezuela and Cuba.

They are from the English Second Language School ,~hich is located in the district of "! l~ L; 1 ''I

!'larch 20, 1981 Tape :-lo. 511 SD - 2 ~!.R . SPEAKER (Si:nms): St . John 's East,~~d chey are accompanied by their teacher , :tr . Bill War s hick . t·:e '~ould like to 1.,relcome them today to the gallery . SOME HON . ME~ffiERS: ~t.~ . SPEA..T(ER : !-lR . STIRLING : Hear, hear . OR.li.L QUESTIO)IS The hon . the Leade r of the Oppo si tion . Thank you very much, Mr . Spe~~er . I have a question for the ~ii:1ister of Finance (Dr . Collins) .

L"l view of the :act that '"e have just ten days to go before the .end o: the fisca l year, could the minister indicate at 1-1hat time He may expect the Budget l:o be brought do•Hn? ~1R. SPEAKE.~ : DR . COLLD1S : The hon. ~nister of Finance . Mr . Speaker, I hope to be in a position possibly the middle or towards the end of r.ext ·~ek to give a firm date for the 9udget . That is the hope and expectation at this time . '! i; u ..... ''I •·I ...I 'l ''I

:·!arch 20, 1981 Tape No. 512 EL - 1 DR. COLLINS: ·rark on the Budget has been going forward since October and it is an onerous task, it has been going ahead smoothly, taking into consideratioP. all the factors which had to be considered and, as I say, I am hoping that by some time next week we will be in a pos­ ition to inform hen. members as to the firm date. i·1R. STIRLING: i1R. SPEAKER (Simms ): Leader of the Opposition. ~1R. STIRLING: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hen. the As I understand from the Hinister of Finance (Dr.

Collins), he is talking about sometime next week giving an indication of when the Budget will be brought down. Are you suggesting then that that will be a matter of days or are you anticipating that you will have to bring in an interim supply bill? MR. SPEAKER: ~he hen. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Hr. Speaker, my certain memory does not go back all that far,but nevertheless as far as I can recall all administrations had to bring in an interim supply bill before the main budget was passed by the han. House. That is not an unusual thing.

I do not know if it has been invariable,but it has been certainly extremely common for administrations to have to bring in an interim supply bill. The only opportunity, the only instance where an interim supply bill would not be required would be if the main budget was brought in and passed and approved by this House before the end of the terminating fiscal year and that would be, I suggest, a very unusual sit­ uation. c·~R. STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER : Leader of the Opposition . !1R. STIRLING: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hen. the Mr.

Speaker, I thought with all of the new ~hanges, the impression that we get is everything 'I it G S .. , .. , ''I '' I

March 20, 1981 Tape NO. 512 EL - 2 HR. STIRLING: ls changed in this government and the attitude is that we are going to have things well in advance for debate and discussion. We now have ten days and it is not usual to \.;ait until the year has expired be­ fore they bring in the Budget,and so I would ask the Min­ ister of Finance (Dr. Collins) is he 9repared to guarantee us that we will at least see the Budget prior to the year running out or in actual fact will the Budget not be brought in now until after the end of the year? HR. SPEAKER (Simms): DR. COLLINS: The hon. the Minister of Finance . Mr.

Speaker, I reiterate that next week I will be in the position, ho9efully,to give a firm date and I would also make the point that it is not at all unusual for the Budget to be introduced after the end of a fiscal year. l!<IR. STIRLING: HR. ROBERTS: ~t!R. SPEAKER: of Belle Isle . MR. ROBERTS: Not for that government. Mr. Speaker. The hon. member for the Strait A supplementary, if I might, Mr. Speaker.

I will change it a little because the minister ob­ viously is unable to comprehend the difference between an in­ terim supply bill when the Budget has been tabled on one hand and on the ot her hand an interim supply bill that amounts to a blank cheque. But given his zero based budgetin q thoughts perhaps that explains everything. But I want to ask the minister an- other financial matter; Could he tell us please when the government will be in a position to announce the appointment of new Auditor General for the Province? 'i ;; u G .. , ''I

i!-larch 20,1981 Tape 513 PK - 1 MR. SPEAKER (~x. Simms): The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. J. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I '"'ould like to 1velcome the hon. member to the House on one of his infrequent visits. SO!-!E HON. Y!E:!iBERS: Hear, hear! DR. COLLINS: V.le are always glad to see him, always glad to hear an odd question or other comment from him. i'<!R. ROBERTS: I would likA an odd answer- most of the minister's answers are - DR. '-OLLi:.';S: I am not in a position at this time to give that assurance, perhaps the hon.

Premier,who is much more directly in line for making such a decision,might care to answer the hon. member. MR. ROBERTS: answer? MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROBERTS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROBERTS: PREMIER PECKFORD: Is the Premier going to The hon. member for LaPoile. Sure go ahead. The hon. the Premier. Well, sure,I would like the answer . Yes, but your colleague was up behind him and I did not want to break the rules of the House. If the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts) has something to say to the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) he can say it outside of the House. l<!R. SPEAKER: MR.

NEARY: Yes, within the month, Mr. Speaker. The hon.member for LaPoile. Mr. Speaker , talking about the Auditor General's repcrt,I wonder if the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth (Mr. Dawe) could shed some light on a ·1 ~ ~ 7 ''j

March 20, 1981 Tape 513 PK - 2 MR. NEARY:

section in the Auditor General's report

section 39, on page 24, that deals with a matter of $350,000 that was granted to a municipality or a community for the construction of a stadium that turned out not to be a stadium. Could the hon. gentleman shed some light on that matter for us? MR. SP&~KER (Mr. Simms): The hon. Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. DAWE: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I believe that the notes from my department as it related to that particular item were tabled in the House of Assembly at the same t~e as the Auditor General's report. MR. DINN: If the hon. member can read. MR. NEARY: A supplemen~ary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Sp~aker, I went throug: the notes and I can find no answer to the question that I just asked the hon. gentleman. Would the minister tell the House who the high ranking official of government, who was the high ranking official of government that gave the authority to spend this $350,000 allegedly for a stadium that turned out to be something other than a stadium? Who was the official? Would the minister care to identify that official? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. DAWE: Yes, Mr. Speaker .

I do not know who was the minister responsible for the department at that particular time. I understand the ongoing relationship with that particular project, The project was for a staC.ium. Tl:e project is still ·1 ;, 5 n .. , '

~!arch 20, 1981 1'ape 513 PK - 3 ~fit . DAvlE : ongoing . '!'h .ere are additional commitments still being made to that particula r facility, and as in a number of facilities that have been built aro~~d the Province, as with the recreation ~apital grants programme that is phased in over a number of years , and that project is still ongoing . The fact that it is not o£ficially an ice stadium right no'~ is no indication that it will :lot be an ice st~dium in the future . ~8. NEARY : A supplementary, ~lr . Speaker . MR. SPEAKER (~ . Simms): A final supplementary, the hen . member for LaPoile . ~ . NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, would the hon . ge .ntleman care to identify the area of Newfoundland, the 1 ;. u g "': ... ~

March 20, 1981 Tape No. 514 DW - 1 MR.. S. NEARY: community, the ~art of Newfoundland that has this building that was supposed to be a stadium that turned out to be something other than a stadium? Where is it located, what part of Newfoundland? Would the hon. gentleman tell us? And the hon. ~entleman should have the name of the officials t¥ho a'_JI?roved that? ~R. SPEAKER (Simms) : Culture and Youth. MR. R. DAWE: The hon. Minister of Recreation, Hr. Speaker, I would assume that the hon. gentleman already knows the answer to that crue~tion.

If I understand it correctly the building concerned is in the community of Trepassey. MR. G. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. S. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. S~eaker . MR. G. FLIGHT: You have a supplementary? MR. S. NEARY : Yes. MR. G. FLIGHT: I yield, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Winds9r - Buchans yields. The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. S. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, would the hon. gentleman care to tell the House the community of Trepassey received $350,000 for a stadium that is not a stadium without a formal application being made to the department, without a feasibility study, without plans or specifications? MR. SPEAKER: Culture and Youth. MR. R. DAWE: The hon. Minister of Recreation, Mr. Speaker, the Recreation Capital Grants programme was started a number of years ago and has gone through considerable changes over that period of time. It is being refined and modified continually. The particular facility ·1 i+ /' i!

March 20, 1981 Tape No. 514 DW - 2 MR. R. DAWE: under the guidelines of the then existing Recreation Ca~ital Grants programme were met satis­ factorily. The committee made application for a facility which it considered necessary. The department officials involved reviewed the process at the time, considered in thier wisdom that the facility was needed in the community and went ahead with the project under the regulations as existed at that time. ~R. G. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Buchans. MR. S. 'tii"EARY: MR. G. FLIGHT: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Windsor - A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

I will yield, Mr. Speaker. The han. member for Windsor - Buchans wishes to yield again. The han. member for LaPoile. MR . s. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, will the minister undertake to identify at an early a date as possible in this House the official who approved that - and by the way, there was no application, there is no application in the file, no formal application - so I would like for the han. gentleman to identify the official at an early a date as possible, and tell the House now what is the state of this building at the present time? Is it still in the process of being completed?

Can it ever be used as a stadium or is going to be used for some other purpose? MR. SPEAKER: Culture and Youth. MR. R. DAWE: The hon. Minister of Recreation First of all, Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. gentleman for the questions today. It is always nice to be welcomed back to the House in this manner. JIII..R. E. ROBERTS: SOJIIIE HON. MEMBERS: You were away, were you? Hear, hear! ·1 ir 7 1 .. ,

March 20, 1981 ~L~ • R • DllJ~"E : from that area . M.~ . DINN: Tape No . 514 ow - 3 Well, only as much as the people The hon. gentleman does not know because he was not here either, you see . ~. R. DAlVE : probably . ti.N HON . ~E:-tBER : a\<~ay too, 1 Ron 1 • ~ . DINN : SOME HON • MEMBERS: .;tR. R. DAiiE: The hen. gentleman was not here 1 Graha~ 1 does not know, he was He is always away. Oh, oh ! Obviously, Hr . Speaker, the questions il'lvolve some detail and if the hon . member would like to put the question on the Order Paper I will answer it appropriately . ~. SPEAKER {Simms }: Order Paper. ·1 i,; '? 'I .. , "';

March 20, 1981 MR. SPEAKER (Simms); Windsor-Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Tape No. 515 The hon. member for Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry) - MR. BARRY: What? A question? MR. FLIGHT: SOME HON. MEMBERS : Mines and Energy. Hear, hear! MR. FLIGHT: I know, Mr. Speaker, he NM - 1 feels left out with all the publicity the Premier is getting these days. As the minister is aware, the American Smelting and Refining Company or Abitibi-Price in Buchans indicated a long time ago in various reports to the government, that in order to maintain its work force - MR.

ROBERTS: Try to get the answer (inaudible). MR. FLIGHT: - and to continue production in Buchans they would have to have to find new ore bodies, and have to have bro~•t some new ore bodies into production. MR. MOORES: Another man in trouble. MR. FLIGHT: Now I am wondering, Mr. Speaker, if the minister would indicate to the House what the ' present projections of Abitibi-Price in the mining industry in Buchans are presently?

What is the last projection that the minister is aware of that indicates their intentions, or their ability to continue the mining operation and maintain the work force at its present level, let us say past June 31st., past June '81? MR. SPEAKER: and Energy. The hon. Minister of Mines MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, ever since we have become aware that the ore reserves at Buchans have been depleting, we have been in constant touch with the mining companies MR. MOORES: Sure you have. ·1 4/ l •·, .. ,

March 20, 1981 Tape No. 515 NM - 2 MR. BARRY: -urging additional exploration, pressuring them to see that as much exploration as possible takes place, because it is only by exploration that more deposits of minerals will be found. Buchans has been fortunate in that there was an addition to the ore reserve of the McLean mine established and this is now being firmed up and,Mr. Speaker, we are hopeful that this additional ore adjacent to the present McLean workings will see an extension of the life of the mine at Buchans. There is a problem in the short term, Mr.

Speaker, in that by the time the new deposit has been - the reserves have been firmed up 1 the present ore may be depleted. But it is a race against time and at the present time, Mr. Speaker, I believe that there is a reasonably good chance that the operation may continue without interruption although at the reduced work force level that we now have there,and if there is any interruption in production that it would be for a reasonably short time. So we have to keep our fingers crossed, Mr. Speaker, that the work of proving up the additional reserves adjacent to the McLean mine continues apace. MR.

SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. member for Windsor-Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, the minister is aware that the present work force in Buchans is around 330, Would the minister indicate when, based on the reason he just gave in his answer, when it will be possible, when it will be probable there will be a reduction in that work force and when will it be probable that - there is a probability there will be a reduction in the work force - when would the minister anticipate the new ore bodies coming on stream? Has the company indicated that to the minister? 1 4 7 4 'I ''! .. 'I

March. 20, 1981 Tape. No. 516 so - 1 MR. FLIGHT: He has indicated that there is a problern,that the present ore deposit may run out and Buchans' future operation will depend on the bringing into production of the new ore body he referred to. Now can the minister tell us when ASARCO or Abitibi-Price have advised him that they may have to curtail, reduce their present workforce while they are waitinq to brinq the new ore body into production? When would they expect that? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The han. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, the han. member is not repeating correctly what I said.

My reference to the reduced workforce was the fact that the workforce at present has been reduced, as the member opposite knows, regretably was reduced somewhat over a year ago. Now, Mr. Speaker, I did not say it was probable that there would be an interruption in production thcat is now occurring out there; I said it will be a race against time. And when government and the company are in a position to make a joint announcement with respect to either the continuation or interruption in production 1 that statement will be made. MR. FLIGHT: MR. SPEAKER : Final supplementary, Mr, Speaker.

Final supplementary, the han . member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Would the minister indicate whether or not the operators of the mine, American Smelting and Refining Company, have indeed indicated to the minister that they are expecting a reduction in the workforce in Buchans? Not the reduction that took place almost two years ago; I mean, we are well aware. of that, There are 333 people working in Buchans right now. Has ASARCO, the operators of the mine, indicated to the minister that they may indeed be looking at a reduction in the ;.rorkforce in Buchans in the immediate future? MR. SPEAKER: The hon.

Minister of Mines and Energy. ·1 ii ,· .S . ''j

March 20, 1~81 Tape No. 516 SD - 2 MR. L. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, as I indicated to this House on a number of previous occasions, if the reserves adjacent to the McLean mine are not firmed up in sufficient time then there is the possibility of an interruption in production,as I mentioned again this morning. Now the company was also looking at having a possible interim production from the Tulk's deposit. Unfortunately there have been metallurgical problems occur there which have not yet been solved which the company is still 1;1orking upon.

The information that the company has most recently given is that while there is the possibility, as I have indicated a number of times,of such an interruption, that right now if prices remain reasonably firm,that production should continue within the coming year.

But the company is not able to,until they establish what the situation is with respect to the metallurgical problem, what the situation is with respect to the additional ore reserves , to make a firm prediction as to the timing of either getting the new reserves into production or the timing of any interruption that might be necessary, not that probably is necessary. Now, Mr. Speaker, we are in constant touch with the company. We are ·1 4 i G .. , .. ,

Harch 20,1981 Tape No. 517 AH-1 MR. BARRY: making every effort to persuade the company to do everything that is humanly possible to keep that operation in production. SOME HON .ME~lBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WARREN: A final supplementary. MR.SPEAKER (Simms): I indicated a final supplementary. Does the hon. member for Torngat wish to yield? MR. WARREN: I yield. HR. :t'L.~-"'n'l': Mr. 6peaJ....::r, I have to remind the minister that this has been ongoing. The minister announced in this House last Fall that ASARCO had just uncovered an ore body, n new ore body ,and there was a great positive statement so saying. Right?

Now, Mr. Speaker, we only have three months. ASARCO have indicated that if they do not bring that ore body into production there will have to be a curtailment of employment in that town. Now I want to ask the minister - MR. BARRY: We really want the same thinq. MR. FLIGHT: - there are only ti1ree months. Three hundred and thirty-three people's jobs hang in the balance and there are only three months to June because June was the month that ASARCO and Abitibi-Price indicated that they would either have to have a layoff or not.

Now would the minister indicate to the House in view of the fact that there is only three months,whether or not ASARCO and Abitibi- Price ha··e indicated-~hey have had a year to shore-up that ore body- is the ore body shored-up to a point that they know whether or not they are going into production and therefore maintain the work ~orce, or is it not shored-up? And I would like to ask the minister this - I mean, that is a very straight fordward question - when was the last projection, when was the company's~as t projection given to the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr.Barry)?

When was the last report stating the status of the Buchans ''I mining operation given to the Department of Mines and Energy? ·1 it ,-7

Harch 20,1981 Tape No. 517 AH-:-2 :'<lR.SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. ~1R. BARRY: Mr. Speaker,the last report received was about two days ago,just to shm.;r that we are on frequent - MR. FLIGHT: (Inaudible) information (inaudible). MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. BARRY: \'i"ha t is wi t!"l all these charges and fingers pointing? 1qhat is the member raving on about this morning? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I can only say again that the member is pointing out nothing that I have not stated already,except for his scare tactics with respect to the three months.

And, Mr. Speaker, we have legislation in place that requires certain notice to be .. given where there is a large scale layoff. MR. FLIGHT: (Inaudible) to the workers in the union. ~R. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. BARRY: There is legislation in place that requires notification to be given where there are large scale layoffs of industry, legislation brought in by a PC government of this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: Mr.

Speaker, and as soon as we have - not just with respect to the mining industry but with respect to every area of life in this Province since this government has come into power, it has been a policy of open, full, free disclosure of information. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear,hear! MR. BARRY: And , Mr. Speaker, the workers of Buchans know, the miners of Buchans and the miners " ' • ~ I I ..

March 20,1981 f.B. BARRY: Tape N9. 517 AH-3 all around this Province know that the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry) will keep them fully informed with matters relating to their activities. ., ;i i ~3 .. I .. ,

t1arch 20, 1981 AN HON. NEMBER: M.~. STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Leader of the Opposition. Tape No. 518 EL - 1 Hear, hear! A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. the MR. STIRLING: t-1r. Speaker, this is not just a little debating society. This is the House of Assembly and the minister is playing games - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. STIRLING: - minister is playing games, Hr. Speaker. This is not good enough. The minister is play­ ing games with the lives of those people in Buchans. Now, my supplementary question is a specific q~estion to the Minsiter of Mines and Energy (L. Barry).

Have you or have you not been told by the company that the workforce in Buchans is likely to reduce ~o ~lmost nothing by June of 1981? Eave you or have you not been told? And stop playing games! SOt1E HON .. '.!EMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Energy. MR. BARRY: MR . OTTENHEIMER: MR. WARREN: !-1R. SPEAKER: Mountains. The hon. the Minister of Mines Mr. Speaker, no. Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker. The han. member for Torngat MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Justice. Could the minister advise the han. House where the next correctional centre for the Province will be established? MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice. '1 i;(j [1 .. I ''I ''I .. ,

aarch 20, 1981 Tape No. 518 EL - 2 MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, I will probably give the hon. gentleman an overview there. The next one to be in operation will be Stephenville. This is work on an existing building and that will be a women's penitentiary in Stephenville. The building is there, there are rennov­ ations to it. In terms of being built, new buildings, the next one will be Clarenville,and the next two will be Bishops Falls and Labrador~ I imagine it is Labrador that the hon. gentleman probably has in the back of his mind.

And with respect to a correction facility for La~rador, as the hon. member is probably aware durinq the past number of months there have been some meetings between people from the corrections branch of the Department of Justice and interested groups in Labrador to discuss location and.nature of facility and things in that general area and also it is our hope that there will be participation by the Federal Government in the coast of Labrador agreement for the financing of a correction facility in Labrador. t-1R. WARREN: MR. SPEAKER (Simms ) : for Torngat Mountains. A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

A supplementary, the hon. member MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask a supplementary one. What is the rationale behind this govern- ment in looking at Clarenville and Bishops Falls and other areas of this Province before they look at Labrador? MR. SPEAKER: MR. OTTENHEIMER: The hon. the Minister of Justice. Mr. Speaker, it is not a question of where we, you know, looked first; it is not a question of, you know, looking here first and there second and there third.

One can say that within the area of corrections in general, the whole Province was looked at in one exercise in order to es­ tablish our priorities and in order to establish a correction '1 4 d 'l '·I . ... I .. ,

March 20, 1981 Tape No. 518 EL - 3 MR. OTTENHEH1ER: programme. So I think from a Provincial perspective the needs - MR. WARREN: (Inaudible) MR. OTTENHEH1ER: - if the hon. gentleman will allow me to finish. - were looked at as a unit for an over- all plan. As the hon. member know, there is ·1 ir U ~ '"I ·­' •-,

March 20, 1981 Tape 519 PK - 1 MR. OTTENHEIMER: the provincial facility in St. John's, many parts of ~·.rhich were quite old and inadequate, and new facilities are being constructed there. The need for a women's prison and the need for reqional correction centres: all of this was viewed as a whole, as a comprehensive correction programme within the Province's responsibility for provincial corrections~ it is not obviously in the federal area.

And as part of that programme the recognition of the need for a facility in Labrador and the. desire of this government, our P"-'c.ting forward the position and our now negotiating the position of federal involvement with respect to the Labrador correctional facility. MR. vJARREN: A final supplementary I r-'r. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Simms): A final supplementary, the hon. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, my final supplementary to the minister.

Can he confirm that, as far as he can determine, the earliest time that we can expect our correctional centre to be established in Labrador would be in the year 1984? And my second part of the question is; When that correctional centre is established in Labrador,will it be a various of two or three smaller correctional centres instead of one large centre? MR. OTTENHEIMER: If I understood the hon. member correctly, will it be two or three or four small centres rather than one specific centre? MR. WARREN: Yes. MR. OTTENHEIMER: First of a·ll, on the first

part I would not say it would be 1984, you know, obviously before 1 4 b J . •.

March 20, 1981 Tape 519 PK - 2 MR. OTTENHEIMER: there would be any commencement. We would like to commence it as soon as possible. And, you know, we hope we will have the involvement of the federal people under the DREE programme. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. OTTENHEIMER: They participate in many other matters,as the hon. gentleman knows ,in Labrador and it is our hope that they would participate in this as well. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. OTTENHEIMER: Now whether there would be three or four - the hon. gentleman is having a difficult time hearing my answer because his colleagues in front - MR.

STIRLING: MR. OTTENHEIMER: We are just helping you out. When I need the hon. gentlemen's help to help me frame answers, Mr. Speaker, it will be a cold day in hell. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. OTTENHEIMER: four centres - SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. OTTENHEIMER: With respect to three or Oh, oh! - as the hon. gentleman probably knows, you know, a centre in Labrador, and I would not be prepared to say right now because that is what these meetings are going on for, and these consultations are going on for, you know, would not be a huge facility. It would not be a huge facility.

So whether there would be any practicality in having three or four quite, quite small services rather than one of a , you know, by no means a maximum size as a correction facility, you know, ·1 ~ L 4 ' 'I

March 20, 1981 Tape No. 520 NM - 1 MR. OTTENHEIMER: there would obviously be very differing opinions on that. Hopefully one of the important things to be achieved in a corrections facility. in Labrador would be to have other services of rehabilitation and of training and of education and that type of service available to the people, not just incarceration, right, but rehabilitation and training and other services. So I think it would have to be planned, and obviously would be planned, with that in mind. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The bon. member for Burin-Placentia West,unless he wishes to yield. MR.

HOLLETT: I yield to the hon. gentleman. MR. SPEAKER: Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: The bon. member for I would like to ask a final supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

In view of the number of tax dollars that it is costing government to transport in­ mates,we will say, from Labrador out to this Province, for the past years- in fact I would venture to say it is astronomical - could not the minister reconsider putting Labrador on the next list immediately because it is costing the taxpayers so much now at the present time, in fact it is one of the greatest costs to the Justice Department in having inmates transferred out of Labrador. Would the minister seriously consider having Labrador as his next priority instead of his next third priority? MR. SPEAKER: The han.

Minister of Justice. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, a slight correction there; it is the present priority. It is not on the third priority,it is on the present priority. We are hoping now to get an agreement. We are hoping now to be able to proceed with the correctional facility and we are hoping that the federal government will agree tomorrow or next week 14b::i ''I 'I . ''I .. ,

March 20, 1981 MR. WARREN: the federal government. MR. OTTENHEIMER: facility. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : yield for a supplementary? MR. THOMS: of Justice. Tape No. 520 NM - 2 Oh, oh, the federal government, - so that we can establish that Does the hon. member wish to The hon. member for Grand Bank. A supplementary to the Minister Recently it has been reported by both the CBC and The Evening Telegram that they made attempts to get in and view the facilities known as the lockup here in St. John's, and that they were refused permission. Would the Minister of Justice like to comment on that? MR. SPEAKER: MR.

OTTENHEIMER: The hon. Minister of Justice. It is only with respect to the CBC that I know anything; I am not aware, you know, of The Evening Telegram. MR. THOMS: it. The Evening Telegram reported MR. OTTENHEIMER: Reported it. Oh, reported it, yes. I can only speak whereof I know and that was the CBC about a week or ten days ago, the hon. gentleman and members will recall,they had a programme on the lockup. They phoned me and asked could they film inside the lockup.

My reply in general was, "You cannot film in a way whereby the identit :y of inmates can be made known, nor can you film from the point of view of security." Then there was a suggestion that perhaps the inmates could be moved all in a cell or to one or two cells, My reply to that was, "Obviously you are concerned about the inconvenience of overcrowding in the lockup and we are not going to add to that inconvenience by moving them all in one or two cells in order to facilitate your photography." SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! ·1 i; b G ''J ''J ''I ''I •..

:'larch 20, 1981 Taoe i'Jo. 521 DI~ - 1 \·1::t . G. OTTENHEI~!ER: I mean we have a resoonsibility the inmates which comes before our resoonsibilitv to CBC. They came bac~ with a counter proposal and said, 'Would you aqree to film inside from the point of view of a reoorter being in there and us filming the reporter making his report; And ~e aareed and t~ey told they were quite oleased and auite satis~ied with that. '1R. L • THOMS : A final supplementary, ~r. Soeaker. Z··!R.. ST:>EA!<ER (Sirmns): r,_re have time for one final auesticn. The hon. member for Grand Bank. \1R. L. 'l'HOMS: Mr.

Speaker, I fail to see how somebody who - I kn01<1 one client right now 1vho has spent three weeks in the lockup downto•"n - and I fail to see how he is croincr to be inconvenienced bv movina for four or five minutes. AN HON. MEMBER: He needs a new l2.wver. ::-c; lE HUN. '!.r.'IB£P..S: Hear, hear! • \1R. L. THm.1.S : He does not happen to be my client. ~'R. S PE?.KER: Order, please! We onlv have time for a 0uic~ ~uestion . t~R. L. THOMS: Mr. Minister,would you ~rou know, in vour grandiose scheme for correctional facilities in the Province - ~1R. ROBERTS: A jail in every home. SOl'v!E HON.

Y!EMBER.S : Hear, hear! ~1R. L. THm1S: - can you tell me how the lockuo in this city fits into those t:Jlans, how ·rou J:Jlan to eliminate the t;>roblem there? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. ~inister of Justice. ."'R. G. OTTFNHEilii!E": Basically, of course, a facilitv like the lockuo should be used onlv for remand.

One of the problems has been- not the only problem but I \.;ould sav a very important part of the problem-has been the fact that we do not have enough correction units for people under sentence - I a~ not talkina about remand- and in some cases oeople '-,Cl''e eeen in that remand, '"hat should be a re!':"\ano centre \•rho shculd he ir. a res-ula.:- c8rrection serv:.ce I :; w / ~ow with the cominG ''1 ''I ...

March 20, 1981 Tape No. 521 DW - 2 MR. G. OTTENHEH1ER: on stream of an additional approxi- mately seventy units- some in Stephenville, over twenty in St. John's, some here, some there-then that major nart of the prob­ lem1which means that a remand centre has been used for others than people under remand, that will be a significant contri­ bution towards solving the problem. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER (Simms): expired. Hear, hear! The time for Oral Questions has I would like to welcome to the galleries on behalf of hon. members ~I.

Herbert Dimmer,who is a member of and representing the Mortier/Fox Cove Council in the district of Burin - Placentia West. SO~E HON. MEMBERS: MR. S. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: ~R. S. NEARY: of order. MR. SPEAKER: for LaPoile. MR. S. NEARY: Hear, hear! 000 Mr. Speaker. A point of order? Well, you could call it a point A point of order, the hon. member Before we get to Orders of the Day, Sir, I want to ask the indulgence of the House,if I can get the agreement-and this is probably unusual coming from this side of the House, Mr.

Speaker, but it is an unusual situation - if we can get the agreement to send off a telegram, a message of congratulations to Premier Davis of Ontario. SOME HON. MEMBERS: l·fR. S . NEARY: Oh, oh! Nm.,, Mr. Sneaker, t'le reason - ··, .. , SOME HON. ME.~BERS : Oh, oh! •·, MR. S. NEARY: Unless the government members do not wish me to proceed well I will just stoo (inaudible) SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave, by leave! 'j it u i] ..

)1arch 20, 1981 Tape No. 522 SD - 1 :-tR. NE.~RY: Hr. Speaker, it was a very interesting election and the constitutional issue played a major

part in that election, Sir, and the people of Ontario have shown beyond an~ shadow of doubt that they support the Prime Minister of Canada and the Liberal Government of Canada - SOI1E HON. )1EHBERS : Hear, hear. ~lR. C.JE.ll.RY: - in their attempt to bring the Constitution home and to establish a Charter of Riqhts for all Canadians. And I think that is what influenced,Mr. Speaker, the outcome of that election. That was the one main issue in that election. And so, Mr.

Speaker, I have, even though it is a Tory government, no hesitation at all in moving that Your Honour dispatch a telegram of congratulations to Premier Davis and to the new government of Ontario. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. ~R. SPEAKER (Simms) : Before I recognize the hon. the Premier, I must make a comment here. This is that type of motion that is generally done by agreement and I hesitate to allow a lot of discussion on it for fear of debate.

But in view of the fact that we have allowed some comments from one side, we will allow some comments from the other side and then vle will put the motion 1 if that is agreeable. The bon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to enter into the agreement with the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) on this important motion on sending a telegram to Mr. Davis. I think it is very important, Mr. Speaker, to point out that if the people of Ontario were eager to support the Prime 1-linister' s constitutional proposals 1 they would have supported the Liberal Party o~ Ontario. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear. PREMIER PECKFORD : It is obvious that the people of Ontario recognize-like the people of Newfoundland, like the people of ~ova Scotia, like the Deoole of New Brunswick, like 'I 1f w :j . .. ,

~!a:::ch 20, 1931 Tape No . 522 so - 2 ?RD::E~ ?ECx='CR::l : ~~e people of ?EI, like the people o: Albe:::ta , like the people oi ~anitoba - ~~ at the Conservative Party is t:te o:-tly Party to ser ve the interests of Canadian peo?:e. SO:·iE ~ON . :·!EBERS : :·L'=l . S?E.:l;.;(ER (Si::~ms ) : SOME !-!O~i . ~1El·rBERS : :·!R . S?E;..KER : :-r.:G:i7. : S0~1E E0::-1 • ~MBERS : :.L-q . SPE~.KER : I ~" sor=y . ~:ear, hear. ?ou have hearc t~e ~otion . These in favo~r, 'Aye•: i'.ye . Contrary? T~e motion is car=ied. Wer~ there som e 'Nays ' over there ? Oh, oh ! Order, please !

The C~air did not de~ect ~~y 'Nays', Unless this Hou se 1-1ishes to take a C.ivision ,I have to accept it as carried . SO.ME HON. ~F :.ffiERS : .>:R . S?EA."-'ER : Oh , oh . Order, please ! OaDERS OF TRE DAY ~R . SPEAKER : Order 19 . Sill No . 3. Second reading of a bill entitled, "A.'\ ~.ct Respecting The Freedom Of Information ". aill No . 3 The debate ,.,as adjourned by the hon . me~er for Grand Ba~~ - ~lR. ':.'iiO:·lS : ':'hani< you very :nuch . ~lr. Spe~<er . A:cer listening ~o the statement chis mo ::::1 ing !:>y t.'"le ~4inister of Development (Mr .

Nindsor) , I could not help but think to :nysele, so much :or !reedom of i~: o ~a~icn. whe:1 he ·1 ~,::, n ''1 .. , .. •.

March 20,1981 Tape No. 523 AH-1 MR. THOMS: freedom r-finformation when he said that in tabl i.nq his report that page 149 was removed because it contains company confi~ential information. ."1R. WINDSOR: were 149. MR. THOMS: Not confidential, at least, Yes, because there might be something very, very embarassing on page 149 makes me suspicious. and it AN HON.MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. THOMS: I do not know that. You do not know that. Have you read page 149? ~~R. WINDSOR: Of course I have. MR. THOMS: If you have this information why ao )IC111 nnt give it to all of us?

MR. :ci:;;:;so~: We will let the members see it in confidence. MR. THOMS: I would like to see it. But here we are debating a ~reedom of Information bill and the very first thing we find out that there is a report being filed in the House of Assembly in which a page has been extracted. All I am saying is it makes me suspicious. MR. ROBERTS: It is very peculiar. MR. THOMS: It is very peculiar and I think it is a sad way to start debate on a Freedom of information bill. Mr.

Speake~I would like to repeat very briefly what I said yesterday and that is that the Freedom of Information Act that we are debating in this House now which is obviously,Mr. Speaker, of prime interest to most of the members of the House n-F ll.ssembl v - '~r. St:Jeaker, I do not think we have a quorum at the moment. "'1R. S. NEARY: ·~R. THOMS: MR. SPEAKER(Butt): A auorum call, Mr. Soeaker. No, we do not have a quorum A rruorum call. 'l its ~ ' 'I ' 'I ..

~larch 20, 1981 Tape No. 523 AH - 2 :'1R. S. NEARY: No we do not. One, two, three, f'our, five, six, seven, eight. No, we do not. \'Ie have only nine members. ~!R. SPEAKER (Butt) MR. TP.OMS: YIR. YI..li.RSH.f._LL : "1R. SPEAKER: MR. MARSHALL: Call in the members. ~~e have a quorum. The hen. member for Grand Bank. Thank you very much,Mr. Speaker. A point of order. A point of order. I believe the hon. member's time has expired. Yesterday he started speaking at five o'clock and he went on until five thirty. I do not think that he has more time. NR. THOMS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. THOMS: To that point of order, '.'1r.

Speaker. The hen. member. If I am not mistaken, and I have not been in the House as long as the President of the Council, but it is my understanding the rules, the new rules which were brought in by him and he is the father of these rules, is that the lead-off speaker on a particular bill has an hour. I have not been speaking an hour, Mr.Speaker. Yesterday was the Late Show, so I spoke from fiv~ to five thirty and then the House rose. MR. MARSHALL: I just want the time checked, Mr. Speaker, how much time he has left. MR. SPEAKER: If the hon. member does have an hour, I will get the exact time from the table. MR.

THOMS: MR. NEARY: MR. THOMS: The hon. member for Grand Bank. Thank you very much, Mr.Speaker . Do not be harassing the Speaker. It is quite alright. I can take all the harassment that the President of the Council wants to give me. I have not yet asked for the protection of the Chair in this House and the day that I have to ask for the ; ~ ·~ ··, ''I • • • 1

:-:arch 20, 1981 Tape No . 523 AH -3 :-2. '!'F.O:~s : protection of the Chair I •.-rill leave . I lvill, resign . I am not concer:-teci at all about the ha::-assment that comes from the goverrun ent benches of this Ecuse . It does not bother me one little bit . yesterdav , Now , Mr . Speaker, as I was saying this =reeaom of information legislation will ·.vor :- ;c: it t.;i i.J. o:-~ly •.vorl< , it will only work i E there is a :'I educa:ional proce s~ -and I mean an educational process :rom the top do~m .

If the Premier of this Province does :'lOt war.t this legi slati on to work, it. t·rill not work. r: d1e ~!inister of Justice {Mr . Ottenheirn er ) does not want chis legislation to work 1it t..rill not work . >~e have to educate . And ! am not being o!Eensiv e to the public service of this Province . but we have to educace the public service to the principle of th.i.s bill . t-Ie have to make them realize that the pri nciple of the bill is that all information is available to the public . It ., i . .:J ; 'l •:1 '1 •. I *l

~1arch 20, 1981 Tape No. 524 EL - 1 MR. THOMS: is the taxpayers who pay for the gathering of that information. There are exemptions, there are necessary exemptions, but the overriding principle is that all information should be available to the public and the educational process has got to start from the tor and it has got to go right down,because not only in this Province but in governments all over, probably, ~r. Speaker, all over the world there has grown up this idea that public servants exist only for the government and only to do the work of the government.

And we have to get away from the politicians on the government side of the Hous~, the ministe=~- ~.1e deputy­ ministers, the assistant deputy ministers - we have to get away from this silly practice that we now have of stamping, labelling everything that ~oes through the public service, we label it either confidential, we label it either secret or it is labelled top secret. I do not think I have ever seen a brown envelope come in that elevator since I have been a member of this House of Assembly that did not have secret marked across it and most of it, Mr.

Speaker, the majority of what is in these bro1~ envelopes is garbage, is rubbish. But there is something sophisticated, something sophisticated about marking a brown envelope as confidential or secret or top secret. I have seen some of the stuff that has come out of those bro>vn envelopes. I relayed a situation yesterday where in the Registry of the Supreme Court a brown envelope was opened and was marked either secret or top secret-and what did it contain? The dates on which the Supreme Court of Newfoundland trial division was going to be on circuit in Labrador City and in Corner Brook or Grand Falls.

Why was it necessary? 'I itS l.. .. .. ''I ..

March 20, 1981 Tape No. 524 EL - 2 MR. THOMS: But that adds to this public ser- vice mentality, and when I talk about the public service, I in­ clude the ministers. This is the mentality, that everything must be marked secret or top secret. So there is an educational process, and I cannot stress this enough because this is not going to work unless the politicians and thepublic servants have a change of mind, and that is not going to happen, Mr. Speaker, overnight.

Do not anybody in this Province ever get the idea that if this legislation passes within the next day or so that they are going to be able to go in and get whatever information they want because the natural inclination - 1-l:R. STAGG: (Inaudible) M...'<.. THOMS: I am sorry. I did not get it. HR. STAGG: I said the han. member (inaudible) MR. THOMS: Oh, yes, but the han. member,as most han. members on this side of the House, have a mind that they can change. The problem is there are vacuums for minds on that side of the House. That is the difference, we do have a mind to change. The han. Minister of Justice (G.

Ottenheimer), there is no change there. There is no change. He brought this peice of legislation in to the last session of the House, Mr. Speaker, and he tabled it and the big thing was, the big reason for tabling it was that he could get input from different organizations, from the Newfoundland Law Society, from the the Canadian Bar Association, from anybody who wanted to make presentations. He said that in the House, that is why he was tabling it so early. So, what happens, Mr. Speaker? What happens?

There have been some excellent recommendations for amendments to this legislation coming from, particularly the Newfoundland branch of the Canadian Bar ., if s 'J ··. ... .._

~larch 20, 1981 Tape No . 524 EL - 3 MR. TH0!-15: Association . The minister introduced the bill yesterday, not one indication that there are going to be any amenements to this bill, none whatsoever . Now, I ask, Mr . Speaker, why was this tabled months ago? :vhy was it tabled months ago? Why were these organizations asked for theirinput if all you are going to do, Mr . Speaker, is get the recommendations and tear them up. That is all he did . 1 i1 S rJ •. ..I ., i ....

March 20, 1981 Tape No. 525 DW - l '~R. L. THOMS: Nothing else! And the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) talks about a person changin~ his mind. I wish to God there was somebody on the other side of the House.who would change their mind. M~. TULK: They do not have a mind to change. MR. L. THOMS: You have to make certain assump- tions, I suppose. Some of them may have a mind to change. But the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer), the minister responsible for this bill, refuses to change his mind. And it is an insult, Mr.

Speaker, to the Canadian Bar Association which goes through the trouble to oresent a brief to the ~~inister of Justice outlining some of the amendments that they would like to see 1 and they are completely ignored, completely ignored! Mr. Speaker, the main thing that is going to make this work is the educational process that I S?Oke of. But there are other things. I also mentioned the Court of Appeal, the Trial Division of the Supreme Court of Newfoundland. The appeal from the Ombudsman under this Act is to the Trial Division of the Supreme Court of Newfoundland.

I am happy to see in the legislation that is a trial de novo - that is good. But the answer, Mr. Speaker, is not to the Trial Division of the Supreme Court because it is going to take months and months and months to have a matter heard before that court. Now anybody who 9ractices law in this city knows what I am talking about. You would have a better chance if the appeal was to the Appeal Division of the Supreme Court. It is mv understanding that the Apoeal Division is not - the calendar is not as crowded as the Trial Division.

I was told by the Chief Justice only two or three ~eeks ago that the problem is they need two more judges. We have four judges now in the Trial Division. There is a minimum requirement in this Province today for two more Supreme Court judges. And now we are going to give them this extra work load? 'l i;. ~ 7 .. .. ,

\!arch 20, 1!181 Taoe No . 525 mv - 2 ~ 1R . L. TECM S: Anc also, ~r . Spea~er, ~here is the ques tiel'. of cost. Any 9erson \vho now >vants ~o ao.,eal from the decision of the Ombucsman is goin9 ~o have to have the services of a lawyer . It is going to defeat ~~e purpose o: the bill . This bill has qot to be more than just wincow ­ ~ess~ng . Because if thes e thincs are ~c~ adc~essed, if the niniste r, if this a~~nistration does net adcress ~tsel: to these problems,then the bill is useless .

I£ a ~ioht is created and the ordinary 9eople of this Province cannot take advantage of that riqht,then that riqht ~ght ~eed never have been created in the first place. ~tr: Soeaker, t~ere is one glaring omission, there is a glaring omission from the schedule, from the list of those ·11ho a:::-e covered under this .3.ct, the seventeen depa:tment s are coverec, the 3oarc of Licuor Cor.crol. ~e Liouor Licensing Soard and a batch of others. :·lr . Soeake::-, r woulc like the ~inister of Justice (~r .

Ottenheimer) , the Attorney General for this Province , the minister res?onsible fo?: mis bill to explain to me why the cities of St . John's and Co:::-ner Srock are exempt uncie:: this Act? lihy are they :1ot incluced in the schedule? 1-lhy are not all the towns and :1unicioalities , corrmunity councils? Nhy is the Public Service Commission not included in this bill? Why are the scr.ool boards not included in this bill? vihy are them e:<empted? .I ., ~ .; 'I .. "I 'I

March 20, 1981 Tape 526 MR. FLIGHT: The ~chool T.ax Authority. MR. THOMS: On what basis did the minister eliminate the cities of St. John's and Corner Brook . all of the other municipalities ? MTt. FLI'-'H":' : Crown corporation there. PK - l MR. THOMS: : :i1y is the Public Service Commission not included in this? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. MOORES: Call a quorum and get them back in here. Make them listen, 'Les .', bo y. MR. THOMS: And why are not the school boards included in it?

Most of the information that will be sought by constituents of mine, there arenot too many of them going to be going to the Department of Justice looking for information or the Department of Finance looking for information, but they may be going to the town councils looking for information and being denied that information. They may be going to the school boards looking for information and being denied that information. SOME HON . .('AEMBERS: Clh, oh! MR. THOMS: But the Freedom of Information Act should apply to all those bodies. And I would like to hear the Minister of Justice (Mr.

Ottenheimer) in his roundabout wa y explain why these bodies have been left out. I can see no rhyme nor reason to it. This was a recommendation as well of the Newfoundland Branch of the Canadian Bar Association. Mr. Speaker, the Canadian Bar Association also brought another legitimate and valid point ·1 i; S 9 ''I

March 20, 1981 Tape 526 PK - 2 MR. THOMS: in an effort to save costs for the consumer ,and that was that _the burden of proof should be on the department to show why it is necessary to refuse disclosure. I see no reason why the burden of proof should be on the consumer as t~is Act provides for. It should be on the department. They are the ones who are refusing the information. They are the ones that should have to go before the Ombudsman or before a court and explain why, show why they are refusing the information.

Then there are other - this is what I cannot understand - there are amendments that can be made to this Act that would improve it 1 but the minister has ignored the suggestions for amendments. Mr. Speaker, under the Act you can seek personal or commerical information, you can seek that. There should be an onus in situations like that on the department concerned to notify parties who might be effected. Somebody may seek information about John Jones Limited, a third party.

There should be in this act an onus on the department to notify John Jones Limited that this information is being sought, so that John Jones Limited can intervene. But there is no such onus in the act. MR. MOORES: MR. MARSRli.LL: MR . 160!'15 : Where is the minister? He is not listening to you. Yes there is. Point it out - Unless there has been an amendment made s~nce I read the act, which I doubt. Mr. Speaker, I think these are amendments that will come about over a period of time. Once the Minister of Justice (Mr.

Ottenheimer) can bring these amendments in as his own amendments than rather taking suggestions from other people, I think we will get those amendments. But in summinq up ·1 5 ;-' ~ ... ..

1--larch 20, 19 81 Tape No. 527 SD - 1 MR. THOMS: I would like to point out and reiterate what I have already said 1 that the intent of this Act is good, it is laudible - we will be supporting The Freedom of Information Act-but that it will not work until the attitude, all of our attitudes, change. And that is going to take a considerable period of time,and I am not talking about weeks or months.

It is going to take almost a complete turnover in our civil service,particularly in our senior civil service in this Province or in any province, to make The Freedom of Information Act work because there has to be a re-education happens. and it will not work until that Mr. Speaker, by and large, as I say, we are in agreement with the form and content of this bill. It is a good beginning, a very good beginning and hopefully will substantiate changes within the Public Service, but it is going to be a long time before it has accomplished what we really want to accomplish with this particular piece of legislation.

But as I say, we are pleased to support the legislation and I hope that if not in a short run that in the long run that this Act will accomplish what I believe we all hope it will accomplish. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. MARSHALL: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Hear, hear. The hon. President of the Council. Hear, hear. Mr. Speaker, I would like to say a few works about this Act and also a few words about the remarks made by the hon. member with respect to it.

This is a very important piece of legislation; Freedom of Information, it is another arm of the reforms along the lines that have been passed by this government in its sojourn here in office. And for the benefit of our visitors today, Mr. Speaker , and I know I will be allowed ·1 S G 1 .. . '·I .. ,

:-!arc~ 20, 1981 ':'ape ~o. 527 so - 2 ~R . :O!ARS H.Z..LL : to make re:erence to them because c!1ey are attending a Hell-kno;-m institution in the good aistrict of St . John's Eas!: ~"hich I :nysel: represent, I ~o~ould li~e to add my •.velcome to the Speaker's \•Telcome of them here today to say that they are here and they are liste~ing to a deba te · . .,rhich is ~ debate a!Jout a very im9ortant aspect: of ?Ul:llic life in this Province that 5.s going to, ho?e=ully to o::-.a degree or another, change thn tcnc= of public life . And I hope they are enjoyi:1<; their sojour!l here in St .

Joh:~' s East, · . .,e are altvays glad to have people from other areas and I k:1cw that you will be here for a• . .;hile and eventually will go back to your respective councries ana,even though when you co go back to your respective countries I know that as geed anC. as all they are, I certainly hope that St . John 's East can measure halfways up, anyway, to the fine places you ca.-;;e :rom . aut, :1r.

Speaker, on this particular bill that ~•e have here, this Freedom of Iruor:nac1.on, :'irst: of all I think the major point to be made here is not ti":e e::ect o: this oill on the workings in this House , although it ·.·lill have a.; ef:ect on t..'le workings of this neuse because ~.>·e have =a!<en control of the •,rorkings o: this House ourselves t·:hen the adlllinistration tool< office and "ISu~ .. ., • ! •• 1

!'!arch 20, 1981 Tape No. 528 NM - 1 MR. MARSHALL: we have made very, very significant changes in the way in which this House operates. This is a bill that we view as going even deeper than that be- cause I think that this bill to one degree will have a much greater extent - to a much greater extent, will affect the public service of this Province.

There has been in all public services, not just in the Province of Newfoundland but in the federal government, in the other provinces and I am sure in the public services of other countries, there has been a great tendency to mark any kind of paper, no matter how consequental that paper may be, as being secret, or private and confidential. And the net result of that is decisions are made,and there are many decisions that are made by people in the public service in the administration that affect the lives of John Q.

Citizen, more directly perhaps in recent years where life has become more complicated than any other body, and the tendency has been at every given time, whether with reason or without reason, to put the label secret and confidential on it and the net result of this is that the people cannot find out the legitimate reasons surrounding decisions that are made affecting their lives. And this is one thing, I say this is one major hurdle that this particular piece of legislation seeks to overcome.

It sets up in the legislation that the public, the general public have the right to access of information lying in the records of departments. Now that is the general principle. Of course there have to be certain exceptions and these exceptions are noted there. I noted that the member of the Opposition, the member for Grand Bank (Mr. Thoms) who is their spokesman, did not zero in in any way on the exceptions, because we think the exceptions were ·1 5 u l .. ,

......_ ___,. ....... -- March 20, 1981 Tape No. 528 NM - 2 1-!R. ).1ARSHALL: weighed, and the excep~ions that are there in the act are reasonable and necessary for the reasonable protection of the public as a whole. For instance, it~~s ~hat are communications be~een public o!f icials and minis~ers, Mr . Speaker, chat are affect~ng the policy, the policy decisions, Mr. Speaker, of the - MR. NEARY : A quorum call . A quorum call, Mr. Speaker, please. DR. COLLINS : The Speaker has to be in his Chair before he can ask for a quorum. AN 'E!ON. l'!El'!BER: That is right. M.~. SPEAKER (Butt) : Order, please!

I will ask the Clerk to count the members . We have a quor~. The hon. President of ~e Council. I :..i :.; :. • • j, .•· . . .. ..

Harch 20, 1981 Tape NO. 529 EL - 1 MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, thank you, The Opposition is - I will not get on the Opposition this morning~ there is no point. They are probably - the reason why there are only two members in the Opposition here, I would gather,is because they are all huddled downstairs or most of them are huddled downstairs in fear and trembling over the outcome of the by-election which we called yesterday. SOME HON. HEMBERS: Hear, hear: MR. MARSHALL: That is why the hon. gentlemen are not in the House. But anyway, Mr.

Speaker, as I was saying the effect that this bill is going to have, I think its most effect is on the public service. And the way it is going to have a psychological effect as much as anything on the public service I think is going to result, Mr. Speaker, in a very positive way, the dealing of the adminis­ trative arm of government with the general public. As I said, the Opposition has not- and I will not deal t'l'ith the exceptions because the exceptions there are reasonable and I do not believe that any of the spokesmen for the Opposition drew exception to the exceptions.

The situation is there - reason­ able there. There are only those exceptions that are absol­ utely necessary,such as advice from the public servants, the ministry \'l'ith respect to the formulation of policy is one area and,of course,it just merely preserves the standard secrecy of the Cabinet system of governrnent,which is absol­ utely essential. Mr. Speaker, this is another great reform in the long list of reforms that have been brought in by this government in its effort to make the public affairs more relevant to the people of this Province 'I 5 ;_; 5 .. ''I

March 20, 1981 Tape No. 529 EL 2 MR. MARSHALL: and it stands as a shining star with the changes that have been made, for instance, in the rules of the House to allow a question period where a ques­ tion period before in other days and other climes was not even allowed.

I think we forget every now and then - we talk about freedom and rights and all the rest of it- just how much the freedom of this Province has been enhanced over the past few years. almost incredible in a British Parliamen­ tary system, there was one time in the dim dark recesses of the history, and thank God they are dim dark recesses of the history of this Province, where one was not allowed to ask an oral question in this House; that one could not, Mr.

Speaker - can you imagine?-you could not come into this House during the day, during the regular routine of business during this day and you could not ask a question. You were told to put it on the order paper. MR. BARRY: lvhett government was in power then? MR. ~1ARSHALL: The government then led by-the han. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary). SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. !-1ARSHALL: - of which the hon. member for LaPoile had a very leading

part in that government at the particular time. MR. CARTER: A real mouthpiece. SONE HON. MEMBERS: Shame! MR. MARSHALL: So that is one type of reform . The other type of reform, ~tr. Speaker, another type of kindred reform,and I think they have to be brought to the attention of the public from time to time just 1vhat this party and this government has done 1 was che establishment of a Public Accounts Committee. SOME HON. MEHBERS: Hear, hear! 'I ;J w G .. .. ..

March 20, 1981 Tape No. 529 EL - 3 MR. MARSHALL : The !?ublic Accounts Committee, Mr . Speaker, we know has been sitting and examining diligently. We have our little Dick Tracys and Sam Spades and they are examining and they are digging and they are keeping the government on its toes. So there isthe Question Period and the Public Accounts Committee and of course that great­ est reform of all,that star that exceeds all stars, the Public Tender Act. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: That great bastion, Mr.

Speaker, of the protection of the rights of individuals and the carry­ ing out of proper and effective government. So, Mr. Speaker, this is just one of a long line of the reforms brought in by this party, reforms that have occured before and reforms that will occur in the future. Now, it is a good act and

an act, of course, can be also abused and I hope that certain people in their great ardourwill not in effect abuse the act itself by interpreting the act and the way the act is in accordance with the way in which they want to for their own political economic, social or whatever have you, reasons. -But that remains to be seen. We will stand guard on it and we will foster it and we will see that it works as properly as it can within the context. ., ~ l; 7 ..,

March 20, 1981 Tape No. 530 DW - 1 MR. "I. M..l\RS HALL : Now I want to spend a few moments talking about some of the observations of the member for Grand Bank (Mr. Thorns). Now I do not know, I would assume that the hon. member for Grand Bank read this bill when the hon. member for Grand Bank was speaking. He is the official spokesman for Justice and on an important piece of legislation like this ~ne I thin~, would at least hope and have the reasonable expecta­ tion that the bill was read. But I have the impression, Mr. Speaker, if the bill was read it was not heeded. It was not heeded, Mr.

Speaker, because there are certain things,like he introduced his remarks toda~ trying and to cast some kind of colour,as the Opposition does from time to tirne,on the positive efforts of this government to improve society,by saying, 'Here we have a Freedom of Information bill passed and here' - I got the impression - 'an abrogation of that Act right off the way this morning by the Minister of Development (Mr. Windsor) bringing in the report of the Royal Commission into the Marystown Shipyard and telling us that he had deleted a couple of pages from it - MR. BARRY: One page. Page 149. MR. W.

MARSHALL: Just one oage from it. He tried to colour that, Mr. Speaker, by saying that, you know, this was contrary to the Act right off. And this is the way in which the hon. ~entlernen there opposite try to colour our efforts. Now if the hon. gentleman had read the Act he would have read in

section eleven that, 'Information may be refused' this is what the Act says, 'for various reasons,' one of which is if the information is of a financial, commercial, scien­ tific or technical nature,the disclosure of which would effect either the continued access of such information or would effect the cornoetitive position of a person or result in undue finan­ cial loss or gain to a perso~'. Now that is one of the reasons, that is one of the exceptions in_the Act, Mr. Speaker. And 'IS uS "•

March 20, 1981 Tape No. 530 DW - 2 MR. W. ~~RSHALL: I think really, in a way, for the hon. gentleman to bring it up in that fashion right on his feet,without inquiring more-and if he wants to inquire more he could inquire more,in generally speaking-once the hon. gentleman is an elected member of this Assembly, and a rep­ resentative of people.this government would not be adversed to tell him in a confidential manner as to why that might possiblv have been taken out. But he did not choose to do that, Mr. Speaker. \Vhat he wanted to do, he wanted to grand-stand.

The hon. gentleman wanted to grand-3tand and in attempting to grand-3tand he attempts to put a discolouration and to colour the sincere act of this administration to make government open and completely public to the peo~le. So I utterly and completely, number one, reject what he says this morning when he says that we were acting contrary to the Act, the Minister of Development was, that is number one.

I suqgest to him that in making those statements that he obviously could not have been aware of the contents of theAct, because if he would have read that he would have seen that it was four square within that particular paragraph. Or, Mr. Speaker, if he has read it and he did under­ stand it,then, Mr. Speaker, he has been acting, I suggest,in a way just for the purpose of making his own political points. And before the hon. gentleman does that, ~r.

Speaker, he should consider not just the ~oints he is trying to make but he should consider the jobs of the people down in Marystown itself which this government is trying to protect. He should consider the welfare of those people before he gets up and he makes state­ ments like that that are aoing to cast some colouration on

an Act by the hon. the ~inister of Development (~x. Windsor),which action has been 1I can undertake and the government can undertake, is for the benefit of the people of Marystown and the benefit of the jobs. '] s ;.~9 ... .. ,

March 20, 1981 TaJ?e No. 530 DW - 3 MR. W. MARSHALL: Now let us hear no more of that. I mean,this government does not need, Mr. Speaker, to really have to justify itself on that basis when it has poured $30 million, and will undoubtedly have to pour many other dollars, into Marystown for the preservation and the viability of the jobs and the viability of the whole Burin Peninsula. Would that, Mr.

Speaker, the hon. gentlemen there opposite in their irresponsible statements from time to time would take the same attitude towards all of Newfoundland, i.e.,the synchrolift,as this government has taken towards Marystown. We do · not care where the members come from, we are interested in people and the preservation of jobs and I sa y that the statement made by the hon. the member for Grand Bank (Mr. Thoms) in trying to put a colour on this particular action by the Minister of Development (Mr. Windsor) fly s right in the face of the interest of those people down there.

And I think, in addition to - I do not expect him to come in and retract it in the House 1but I think on his way down to Grand Bank when he goes through Marystown and he goes on the Burin Peninsula he should drop in on the 1 ~ 'i ~ •·. .. ,

March 20, 1981 Tape No: 531 NM- l MR. MARSHALL : various leaders of the community and convey his sincerest apologies for this particular action. Another item, Mr. Speaker, that the hon. member brought up again - because what is the point of getting up and discussing acts in this House , if members are not going to read them, if they do not know - and, you know, make bland statements. We hear bland statements being made from time to time in the House without any authorization, without any backup, without any foundation to it at all.

You know somebody says, "I saw a spider walk across the road," type of thing and,you know,that is to be taken as the Holy Writ. Now, Mr. Speaker, I will tell you something else that the bon. gentleman - the bon. gentleman made a great hullabaloo about the fact that this government did not pay any attention to the representations of the Bar Association, the local Bar Association, the Newfoundland Branch of the Canadian Bar Association. This government, Mr. Speaker, received various observations.

Now , what the government does when it passes a bill ,it does not bring it in before the House immediately, it consults certain interest groups. Before, in another clime in the dim, dark recesses of the past, the only interest groups in this Province that were recognized at all were the interest groups in government and their few seamy, little friends who were alongside. But, Mr. Speaker~ this government does not pass legislation or bring it before the House before it investigates, and it investigates quite fully and comprehensively, the effect of it and it takes the views of all people who may be affected by it.

Now that does not mean that you are going to accept the views completely, but you enter into an intellectual ·1 S .. , 't

March 20, 1981 Tape No. 531 NM - 2 MR. M..l\RSHALL: dialogue with the people concerned and you ask their views and you weigh one against the other and this is what was done with the Canadian Bar Association. Now, the hon. member, he got up very dramatically and he took the paper and he said, "Here were the views and the brief was put in." You know , it is too bad we do not have TV because he took it in a great dramatic fashion and he tore it up and he threw it on the floor and they paid no attention to it. Not so, Mr. Speaker, not so at all.

Here again,if the hon. member had done his home­ work he would have seen that ~here was one particular ite~ that wasbrought in by the Bar Association when it was brought by this government before them and we give them credit for it. They said that, you know, despite the protection you have against secret rnatters .of hurting people irreparably in the matter of deep privacy, there is some secret ricrht to be preferred. You always 1 when you have this have a balancing of rights. You have on the one hand a social right for full information and on the other hand a private right.

Now what about if in exercising the social right some private right is affected'; That third party should at least be given notice so that he can object and make representations to the Ombudsman and eventually to the Trial Division and the Appeal Division of the court.

So consequently, if the hon. the spokesman for the Opposition on Justice had read this bill before he got up in the people's House to debate it, he would have found enshrined there a paragraph, section (15). which said, "Where the head intends," the head of a department, "intends to disclose information requested under this Act, that he has reason to believe might contain (

a) trade secrets of a third party; or (

b) information that was supplied by a third party or that the head of a department could reasonably foresee ·1 ~ ., 2 •.. ··,

~larch 20, 1981 Tape No . 531 Nl-1 - 3 MR . MARSHALL: might effect a result described therein," a bad result, "the head shall subject to subsection ( 2) , " he gives the tJtird party reas<?nable notice . In other words, now, who broug~t that in? The government brings i~ in here in legislation . How is legislation formed? In this administration legislation is formed after consultation with the people and getting all their vie\-IS. In this particular case we got their views.

In this particular case we heard ~~e Canadian Bar Association and because we heard che Canadian Bar Association, and heeded what they say, and recognized that.the fount of all knowledge is not necessarily in the government, that there are other people of interest ,we put t."'lat in the bill. Now ,for the hon . gentleman to get up in this House and try to indicate that the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) had no heed at al~, jus~ sloughed off the Canadian Bar Associatioo ,is completely and absolutely without any foundation whatsoever.

The brief tha~ was pu~ in by the Canadian Bar Association - the brief that was put i.'lto the Minister of Justice was November 13th ., 1980. "l s "j 1

March 10, 1981, Tape 532, Page.~ --apb MR. MARSHALL : Now, what did the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) do? The Minister of Justice considered it all, weighed it all, went through it all and responded. Lo and behold,he responded to the President of the Newfoundland Branch of the Canadian Bar Association not accepting everything but accepting some things. Now, November 13th., the President of the Canadian Bar Association made these representations to the minister. When do you think the minister replied? Did he reply six months time or a year after?

He could not have because we are not past that time, he replied on November 24th., 1980. Now there is a minister for you, Mr. Speaker, there is a minister for you. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

MARSHALL: So the Opposition, I think, should try to get, if I could suggest to them -I know they will not accept it and really I do not care to make any suggestions to them, but if they really want to debate these bills, these bills that affect the lives of people, I suggest before they do it they do a little bit of background information, before they have the audacity and the gall to stand up here in the people's House, Mr. Speaker, and make statements that cannot be substantiated. This bill, Mr. Speaker, is long overdue.

This is a bill, as I say, which is a very beneficial and a positive act and it is going to be, I think, very effective. Would that we had had this kind of act in the past. MR. NEARY: (Inaudible). MR. MARSHALL: Now, I can envisage what the han. the member for LaPoile(Hr. Neary) is going to be ·1 ~ .i..., " ''i

March 20, 1981, Tape 532, Page 2 -- apb MR. MARSHALL: season, Mr. Speaker, he will be doing. In the off if not in the off season, probably this weekend - writing letters to every public servant in this Province. He will have the public service of this Province tied up asking for information most of which, ninety-nine hundred and ninety-nine per cent, will be completely useless, but he will get treated the same way as any other citizen. Now would that, Mr. Speaker, when in another clime, when the hon. gentlemen were over here, we had the same rights.

I can remember sitting over where the hon. gentleman was, I can remember that in the dim, dark past - I do not, I say, foresee it ever in the future, but I do remember in the dim, dark past getting up in this House and getting up on a matter at the time about the Holiday Inn out there on the Portugal Cove Road and about the certain little bit of information that I happened to have dug out - because the hon.the member for LaPoile is not the only digger, Mr. Speaker, there are other diggers in this world - so I got up. We were not allowed to ask questions, Mr.

Speaker, mind you. 2n the House, we were not allowed to ask questions. We had no Public Accounts Committee, Mr. Speaker, that one could go to and_ask these questions. No, there was none of that. There were no questions during the day. There was no Late Show, Mr. Speaker. As a matter of fact, there were times, I have to say, when I used to come into this building and I would see some good and trusting public servants and, you know, people whom I would know socially, and I would see them and they would look away from me and they would walk away.

Now, I know the hen. members opposite will say they can understand that, but ·1 S 'l ~ .. ,

March 20, 1981, Tape 532, Page 3 -- apb MR. MARSHALL: this was with other members. AN HON. MEMBER: (inaudible). MR. MARSHALL : that was not just me If you told the truth That was the climate that we had, Mr. Speaker, in that particular MR. BARRY: yesterday, either. MR. MARSHALL: There was no Late Show No, well, I mean, you can lead the horses to the water but you cannot make them drink. I think we have led the horses to the water but the problem with it is the horses have been turned around, so it has not been very effective. But anyway, Mr.

Speaker, on that particular thing, what we could have done with the Freedom 'of Informati .on Act then, what we could have done. But instead what happened ? T'Then a statement was made, and a statement had to be made outside of the House, what happened? They did not have a royal commission. I remember that vividly, they did not have a royal commission into whether or not there had been an unjust profit, and I will use the 'unjust' ,profit made on that land at the time.

No, they did not do that, the hon. gentlemen there opposite had a royal commission into my statements and they appointed a commission to find out whether I was speaking the truth or not. That is the way in which we operated then, Mr. Speaker, and that is why when I look at a bill like this, and I look at the reforms that are being made in this House of Assembly, and the way it works and the way things are going, you look at it, as I say, anci. you can support it enthusiastically. ·1 ;JIG .. , .. , .. .. ,

March 20, 1981 MR. J. CARTER: AN HON. MEMBER: MR . J. CARTER: Tape 533 PK - 1 on a point of order, Mr. Speaker. A quorum. There cannot be a quorum call unless the hon. member is in his seat. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. J. CARTER: MR. MARSHALL: ~..R. NEARY: MR. MARSHALL: cannot bear to hear it. A~ EON .YJ..EMBER: MR. MOORES: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Butt): MR. MARSHALL: cannot stand it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. MARSHALL: I am in my seat. You were not. No,you are not in your seat. A quorum call, Mr. Speaker. I am getting to him now, boy, they Sure we have all our members. A quorum call, Mr. Speaker.

Any more points of order? A quorum call. We have a quorum. The hon. the President of the Council. They cannot stand it. They Hear, hear! The problem with it is, Mr. Speaker, I drive them out of the House and they go out in shame, because the hon. gentlemen there opposite realize in their heart of hearts that when I am saying - the hon. member for Carbonear (Mr. Moores) realizes what I am saying is true. The other han. gentlemen are, as I say, gone off. They started off when I started speaking, they were dowr., I say, huddled in fear over what is going to happen in Bellevue.

And since I have been speaking the few that were around,I have driven them out in shame. 'I J 'i 7 ''I

March 20, 1981 Tape 533 PK - 2 MR. MARSHALL: But now, Mr. Speaker, in winding up, I see the hon. member for Grand Bank (Mr. Thorns) is back in his seat, and I just like to repeat, because I do like to say in front of sornebody's face what I would say behind his back 1 that I think the hon. gentleman, particularly in his - MR. TULK: That is inapplicable. MR. MARSHALL: - observations with respect to the bill and his attempting to paint the actions on Marystown Shipyard or the report on Marystown Shipyard either,first of all,did not read the bill and did not realize that that deletion was made under Clause 11 (

f) that I have already mentioned, and that his attitude in what he did and his attempt to colour the bill, as I say, could have caused and can cause,if he keeps up in that frame of attack, irreparable damage to the 500 or 600 jobs of the people down in Marystown itself, and I really do not think that he should proceed in that area any further. As far as I am concerned, Mr. Speaker,! think that he should - MR. THOMS: (Inaudible). MR. r1ARSHALL: Well if he wani:-.; ~·-, I have only five minutes, I cannot repeat because most of my time was spent in explaining that. I refer the hon. gentleman to Hansard.

I will say we will get an advance copy for him, if he wishes it. And if he has some time the weekend he should go down to the leaders in the Burin Peninsula and try to repair some of the damage that he may well have done by making comments of that particular nature. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: Now, Mr. Speaker, this is a forward piece of legislation. This is again, as I say, ·1 S ·, i] .. . ..

March 20, 1981 Tape 533 PK - 3 HR. MARSHALL: another in the long range of reforms by this government to make government more relevant to the people. In this particular case, I think, it touches the public service much more so than it touches the elected member because through the House, an~the changes in the rules of the House,freedom of information came to the people's House when there was a change of government. But, Mr.

Speaker, with respect to this particular bill, I think the biggest thing on this bill is that it will not allow public servants in the future just of their own volition to say that they are not going to release a certain piece of information affecting a certain individual or affecting a certain group of individuals unless it comes within the exceptions, that they are going to have to justify what they do and they cannot hide behind the cloak of putting private and confidential or the word 'secret' on a piece of inforr.tation.

And insofar as this bill, as it will-because we will see that it is enforced, and it will be enforced, but the beauty of it is, of course, it is there for all time when other people in the long distant future - that there may be a change - it will be there like a part of our Constitution, like The Public Tender Act, nobody will dare change it even though I think they will wish to. But, Mr.

Speaker, it is there and I think that it creates, really, a psychology in the public service now, and I hope the message is gone out to the public servants that they can no longer hide behind the cloak of secrecy unless the Legislature by this Act, ·1 S i 9 ..

Harch 20, 1981 MR. MARSF.ALL: particular ambit are certainly Tape 533 PK - 4 unless they come within that and the exceptions that are in the act •. "! j ~ f\

March 20, 1981 Tape No. 534 SD - 1 MR. W. MARSHALL : reasonable, they match the exceptions that are in other acts of this nature,and they are only the bare minimum of exceptions that are necessary there in order to protect what I describe as the weight of the public and the private acts. So I, Mr. Speaker, support this legislation. I congratulate the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) for bringing it in. I point out,contrary to what the member for Grand Bank (Mr. Thoms) said,that the Minister of Justice did consult all groups,including the Canadain Bar Association. Now that he is h~re, if he wants to read

Section 15 (1) he will see a manifestation of this. Again , he might look to Hansard but after he sees Hansard, Mr. Speaker, I hope -I am not asking, Mr. Speaker, that he comes to this House to apologize to the House,that is not what I am asking, I am not on a point of order, but I do think it would be very fitting 1 particularly in the instance of the attack on the Minister of Development (Mr.

Windsor) and his removal of that sheet from the report,that he goes down to the Burin Peninsula and apologizes to the people down there who depend on this shipyard for a livelihood and who can depend upon this government to maintain it and to maintain their jobs, their securities and their economic and social future. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear. MR. SPEAKER (Butt): The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. ':'H(1.1'_5: Typical of t.}]e hon.rrerbers when -¥OU do not supr;ort thei.!:" legislation. They cannot stand it when you do not S1Jl?POrt their legislation. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, two things the previous speaker said that I have to agree with, two things only, the rest of it was all - l'-1P .• ( .. ~Rti~: Hogwash. MR. NEARY: - of a political nature. But the two things that he said that I agree with; number one is that the act is long overdue and, number two is that I will •lj21 .. I .. , .. ,

2-larc!'l 20, 1981 )!R. ':-lEARY : my research . SOC.!E HON. )<!E(1BERS: :·IR. NEARY: Tape No. 534 SD - 2 be taking advantage of the act in Oh, oh! And I will tell the House in a few minutes l"hY I 1"ill be taking advantage of it because, !:'1r. S9eaker, just to give the House some idea of the frustrations of doing any kind of research in this Province , there are a number of outstanding items, there is some unfinished business that I have to deal with and I hope to be able to deal with it under this act. But the act is long overdue, ~lr.

Speaker, and I hope t!'lat nobody in this House 1"ill fall for what has now become a ~~~~ of a typical line, it is like a broken record by the hon. gentleman who just spoke. that ~ll ~he reforms now as far as the House of Assembly is concerned W2~? ·Jrought about since 1972 by the Tories. I wonder what ~'lr. Iii. J. Browne - I hop~ especially the youna~r fellows, Mr. Speaker, I am saying this for their benefit: I have been in this House a long time, This month I will start my nineteenth year in this House and, Mr.

Speaker, I can tell the House right now that there was more freedom, that you felt more at home in the House fifteen years ago, sixteen years ago tban you do today. S0!-1E HON. !'!EMBERS : Oh, oh. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I can remember looking across the House at three members of the Opposition. There 't.'ere onlv three elected and all three of them completely disrupted the proceedings in this House. AN HON. MEMBER: That is a lie. ~lR. NEARY: That is not a lie. It is not a lie, I was here and I saw it.

And ther~ 'were more questions and mere information given the House in those days then we are getti~g at the present time. . , j i ::: ''I ''I ... •·; . ..

~·!arch 20, 1981 Tape No . 534 50 - 3 .l.N !:!ON . ME.Hn.ER : \vnat about Question Period? Let us talk ai:out the Ouestion Period. .m~ . NEARY : There ~·;as a Qu est ion Period and do not let anybody hoodw ink you on that . There •11as a Qu esti on P~riod . Mr . w. J. Browne , one of the best members of this :lou se that I have ever seen .even though he was on the OP!=lOS ite side of the Hou se , l-7as a real Digger 0' Dell . He dug into everyt .hi:1g and he practically dominated the '"hole session of the Ho use himself . How did he do it , Mr . Spea ker ?

Asking qu estions and getting answer s, that is how he did it . Hr . Jim Gr eene , who was Leader of the Op positi on , asked more que stio ns and got more answers - MR . F. STAGG : Not as many as you have . ~ffi . NEA.l'I.Y : - \•ell maybe not quite as many as I have aske d but he certainly go·t more information than I get when I ask questions . l>Ll'l. . STAGG : (Inaudible l ffi . T:!Ot-!S : The bon .. member for Ste.;:>henvi lle (Mr . Stagg) is an expert on nonsense . MR. • NE.l\."q Y : The late Mr . Rex Renouf, a very able man, wa s he a dummy in this Bous e? Was he mute ?

No, he sat ther e, I believe he was one of the three, and asked question s day in and day out and got the ans;vers. \P. . C.~t:a'ER : That is not tr ue . '15 21 .... . -:.

March 20,1981 Tape No. 535 AH-1 MR. NEARY: That is true. Go and check Hansard. In case anybody disbelieves it go and look at Hansard. And what about Mr. Bill Smith the late Mr. Smith? 'vas he a dummy in this House? I can see him now, a big hulk of a man who would rise in his seat every day, Mr. Speaker. He would rise in his seat and ask very penetrating questions of the government. A former ranger. MR. THOMS: And probably got answers too. MR. NEARY: And got the answers. MR. CARTER: That is a lie. MR. NEARY: It is not a lie. And what about the present Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey}?

Was he always a dummy in this House? Has he only started to be vocal and speak out and ask questions since he went over on the other side of the House? Mr. Ank Murphy,was he a stupid man and a dummy, a dumb-bell? ~e had more freedom in those days,Mr. Speaker 1 than we have in the House at the present time. Let me show what this crowd have done. They bring in a few pieces of good legislation when it suits them, when it is to their advantage. But when they want to suppress and restrict debate in this House what do they do? My hon. friend from Carbonear (Mr.

Moores} should know 1being a student of political science,that one of the main functions of.this House is to pass estimates. What did they do with the estimates? They moved it off 'che floor, skillfully, cutely, slyly !ilOVed it off ·::::1e floor of the House of Assembly and I was the only one who opposed it. Now it is not working, now the people are not getting the information. ~IJR. CARTER: Another lie. MR. HANCOCK: He called you a liar, 'Steve' . MR. NEARY: Pardon? HR. HANCOCK : He called you a liar. MR. CARTER: Another lie . . ! j ~ .\ '·I

r-1arch 20,1981 SOME HON.MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: Tape No. 535 AH-2 Ohl oh! Mr. Speaker, that is about five times now I let him go,Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): That term,of course,is not parliamentary.However 1 the hon. member is not speaking but, in the meantime,! would ask him to restrain from making such comments because they are unparliamentary. MR. NEARY: If it is unparliamentar~ Mr. Speaker 1 he has to withdraw it. MR. SPEAKER: To make things a little easier would the hon. member withdraw it then? The hon. member for St. John's North. MR. CARTER: Mr. Speaker 1 to t.hat point of order.

Naturally at all times I am in your hands and I will carry out your least wishes,but I was so outraged by the incorrectness of the information emanating from that side that I was overcome. I withdraw. SOME HON.ML~BERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: ohl oh! Then the hon. member has withdrawn. The hon.member for LaPoile. r-Ir. Speaker , I have to say this too 1 that I named some of the more able members of the opposition down through the years since I came in the House and I have seen - let me see - five or six leaders. Jim Greene was the Leader of the Opposition when I came here.

Then I believe we had after hirr.-~ believe my hon. friend the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) succeeded him. · And then we had Dr. Noel Murphy, the mayor of Corner Brook. Was he another dumbell? MR. STAGG: (Inau diblP ) quite obvious. MR. NEARY: He was? He saw the light eventually. He was so overcome and so impressed ~vith t.hP administration of that time that he later joined that administration, went ·1 :J iS .., •·,

March 20,1981 Tape No. 535 AH-3 MR. NEARY: from the opposition benches and became a minister in the Smallwood administration. Did he do that because he thought that we had a dictatorship in this Province? Is that why he did it? MR. STAGG: MR. NEARY: MR. STAGG: Yes,he did. Oh,he did. That is what he did it for. MR. NEARY: Oh,I see. Did Dr. Hubert Kitchen, did he join the Liberal party because he thought it was a dictatorship in this Province? SOME HON.MEMBERS: MR. BARRY: a sinking ship. MR. NEARY: Oh, oh! Examples of rats swimming , to~ards I see.

Mr.Speaker, the fact of the matter is that I could go on and give the House a few more examples of why we need this kind of leqislation. MR. STAGG: He waE so s~art he had (inaudible) ,'Steve'. MR. NEARY: He did it because he thought Smallwood was a dictator. The present Premier of this Province, Mr. Speaker 1 who ..;till has his Liberal membership card in his wallet, he was a Liberal right up to the time that John Crosbie led him astray and that is the only reason that he is a Tory. It is because he supported John Crosbie and then Crosbie - MR. ~'IARSHALL: A point of order. MR. SPEAKER(Sirnms): A point of order.

The hon. the President of the Council. 11R. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker,this bill is the Freedom of Information Bill and I do not know whether the minor aberrations of anybbdy,whoever they may be,are really of relevance to this particular bill,to tell you the honest truth. '! J 2 G .. , .. , ..

March 20,1981 Tape No. 535