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October 31, 2001

37th Parliament, 2nd Session

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Hansard Transcripts

vol. A

Hansard Transcripts

vol. B

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

Hansard Transcripts 2001-Oct-31 (PDF)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ONTARIO

ASSEMBLÉE LÉGISLATIVE DE L'ONTARIO

Wednesday 31 October 2001 Mercredi 31 octobre 2001

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

ACCESS TO PROFESSIONS

AND TRADES

HALLOWEEN

NORTHERN MEDICAL SCHOOL

BUSINESS EXCELLENCE

AWARDS GALA

SOCIAL SERVICES

BEAR CONTROL

MAY DODDS

PROGRESSIVE CONSERVATIVE LEADERSHIP

ST JOSEPH'S FRENCH

IMMERSION CENTRE

REPORTS BY COMMITTEES

STANDING COMMITTEE ON REGULATIONS AND PRIVATE BILLS

VISITORS

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

CELEBRATION OF PORTUGUESE

HERITAGE ACT, 2001 /

LOI DE 2001 SUR LA FÊTE

DU PATRIMOINE PORTUGAIS

VISITORS

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY

AND RESPONSES

COUNTERTERRORISM MEASURES

CROSS-BORDER TRADE

AND SECURITY

COUNTERTERRORISM MEASURES

CROSS-BORDER TRADE

AND SECURITY

COUNTERTERRORISM MEASURES

DON FORESTELL

ORAL QUESTIONS

EMERGENCY PREPAREDNESS LEGISLATION

EDUCATION FUNDING

ONTARIO ECONOMY

COMPETITIVE ELECTRICITY MARKET

ONTARIANS WITH DISABILITIES LEGISLATION

ONTARIO CANCER

RESEARCH NETWORK

FRANCHISE BUSINESSES

WORKFARE

FEDERAL COUNTERTERRORISM LEGISLATION

OSTAR PROGRAM

COLLEGE STANDARDS AND ACCREDITATION

HEALTH CARE FUNDING

OKTOBERFEST

PETITIONS

IPPERWASH PROVINCIAL PARK

CRUELTY TO ANIMALS

COMMUNITY CARE ACCESS CENTRES

HOME CARE

EDUCATION

LONDON HEALTH SCIENCES CENTRE

MEDICAL SCHOOL TUITION

SALE OF SCHOOLS

LONDON HEALTH SCIENCES CENTRE

HIGHWAY SAFETY

ORDERS OF THE DAY

BROWNFIELDS STATUTE LAW

AMENDMENT ACT, 2001 /

LOI DE 2001 MODIFIANT DES LOIS

EN CE QUI CONCERNE

LES FRICHES CONTAMINÉES

Wednesday 31 October 2001 Mercredi 31 octobre 2001

The House met at 1330.

Prayers.

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

ACCESS TO PROFESSIONS

AND TRADES

Mr Tony Ruprecht (Davenport): Did you know that 40% of the people of the greater Toronto area are foreign-born? Did you know that over 52% of

the residents of the city of Toronto were not born in Toronto? This is the largest concentration of foreign-born Canadians found anywhere in the country. In fact it's the largest concentration

anywhere in the world. That, of course, means that we in Toronto are very proud of this diversity.

On October 16, I had invited some of our residents to celebrate this diversity. I would have expected that only a few would come, but instead close to 1,000 came

to the Legislature. Why? Did they come to see me? No, they didn't come to see me. They came to see a government in action. They came to see a government free of fear. They came to see a government

of democracy.

But above all else, they came to ensure that they are treated with fairness and respect. That would mean that fairness and respect equals equal opportunity. When

we're thinking about access to trades and professions, we know the door is shut. We're asking this government today to open the doors to those who are foreign-trained so they can get a job and work

in Canada.

HALLOWEEN

Mr Doug Galt (Northumberland): There are few things in this world that are scary. All Hallows Eve is one of them. The pumpkins downstairs in the

foyer are another. Bert Johnson wearing a wig and carving pumpkins in Nathan Phillips Square is truly scary.

But the scariest things at Queen's Park are the ghosts of politicians past. They stare down at us from their gilded frames. Their eyes follow us late at night.

Some of them have terrible frowns, like the portrait of Thomas Kennedy outside the Premier's office. Do they know too much?

To those members unfortunate enough to have House duty tonight, surrounded by empty offices, lonely staircases and haunted corridors, I have a warning, a

premonition: something strange is going to happen on this night. I can feel it.

So let me forewarn you. If you're on call tonight and find yourself alone, keep your eyes peeled for the ghosts of Queen's Park. They come to light on this

devilish night. Perhaps you will see a soldier in full regimental dress or a former inmate of the insane asylum that stood on this site or the ghost of a long-dead Premier from a bygone era. Any

one of them might pay you a visit. No one knows why they are here or what they want, but don't say you haven't been warned. Thank you, Mr Speaker, and I'll see you tomorrow if, of course, you

survive the night.

NORTHERN MEDICAL SCHOOL

Mrs Lyn McLeod (Thunder Bay-Atikokan): People across northwestern Ontario were dismayed last week when the Premier and the Minister of Health

announced an implementation team for the new northern medical school. Part of the concern is that there are three representatives from the northeast on this committee and only one from the

northwest. Clearly the government is still looking at a medical school based in Sudbury rather than the two-campus model that communities across the north had called for.

Clearly too, the government has not understood why the proposal to base the school in Sudbury and provide only a two-year clinical program in Thunder Bay just

can't work. It can't work because it won't bring new doctors to Thunder Bay as teachers, and without these new doctors it will be impossible to provide those two years of clinical training. Thunder

Bay doctors have been pioneers in developing the northern medical clinical program and the family practice residency program, but the overworked Thunder Bay physicians simply can't take on any more

clinical students. The two-year program will never get off the ground.

We do need to train more doctors in the north -- in the northeast and in the northwest. The northwest has a chronic doctor shortage. It existed long before there

was a shortage across the province and will exist long after the provincial shortage problem has been solved, unless we can provide more training to doctors in our communities so they will stay and

practise in our communities.

This isn't about who gets what, and it shouldn't be about partisan politics. This is about making sure that people in every part of the province have an equal

chance to get health care in their home communities. In northwestern Ontario, if you can't get to see a doctor at home, you have a long way to go to get care.

This is an urgent, desperate situation. Anyone who truly understands it will also understand why the new medical school with equal campuses in Thunder Bay and

Sudbury is an essential part of the solution.

BUSINESS EXCELLENCE

AWARDS GALA

Ms Marilyn Mushinski (Scarborough Centre): Wow, fantastic, wonderful, spectacular: these were all the wonderful words and more that described

the Business Excellence Awards gala hosted by the Scarborough Chamber of Commerce on Thursday, October 25. The evening was a huge success full of entertainment, special features, awards and a lot

of glitter. The black-tie event had a huge turnout with everyone leaving with a smile and praise for a night well planned.

Several people were honoured throughout the night. Highlighting their efforts and contribution to the event, the Mirror and the Guardian newspapers and Toronto

Business Times received a plaque for their long-standing support for the Business Excellence Awards. Centennial College was recognized for their involvement in producing many of the videos, and of

course the winners and nominees. Winners included Cyril Woods, a truly inspirational winner; Golden Valley's Food Outlet Inc; BK Sethi Marketing Ltd; USE Hickson Products Ltd; and Delta Toronto

East.

Back in the early 1990s, people told Mike Harris what to focus on: tax cuts and smaller government. We listened to them -- the wealth creators, the

entrepreneurs, the risk takers -- and what did they say? "Cut taxes and eliminate job-killing red tape."

Congratulations to the Scarborough Chamber of Commerce for such a wonderful event.

SOCIAL SERVICES

Mr Pat Hoy (Chatham-Kent Essex): The Harris government has starved funding, in my community and across Ontario, for vital services to Ontario's

most vulnerable citizens: the sick, elderly, disabled, developmentally challenged, and the vulnerable children in our foster homes. For months we have pleaded with the government to increase

funding for home care, children's aid societies and residential services such as those available at the Southwestern Regional Centre.

This government must adequately fund community care access centres. Their role in maintaining health and preventing illness makes home care services an essential

part of a cost-effective health system. This government's cuts are putting our most vulnerable citizens at risk.

Last Friday I went on a guided tour with members of the Chatham and District Association for Community Living. In a wheelchair, I experienced first hand some of

the challenges faced by 1.5 million disabled Ontario residents, things we take for granted but which limit the disabled from full access to their community. Ontario must have a strong Ontarians

with Disabilities Act and the funding necessary to eliminate the barriers faced by our disabled community.

I also attended a rally Friday demanding increased funding for children's aid societies. They protect Ontario's vulnerable children. CAS workers are stretched to

the limit. This government must do the right thing and provide the funding needed to protect Ontario's most vulnerable citizens.

BEAR CONTROL

Mr Gilles Bisson (Timmins-James Bay): The black bear story continues in northern Ontario. Ever since the provincial government decided to

download that service on to municipalities, municipalities across the north -- as other members for northern Ontario know -- have been inundated by nuisance bears coming into municipalities, much

to their chagrin, and with the safety issue it poses to the residents and communities across northern Ontario.

We learned last night by way of a report on MCTV prepared in Timmins that there is a duplicitous policy on the part of the provincial government in how it treats

municipalities when it comes to funding the removal of nuisance bears in municipalities across the north. I know that in the city of Timmins, our council paid some $80,000 in order to remove bears

from the municipality, something that used to be paid by the MNR. I now find out through MCTV that there is a duplicitous policy, because in the city of Sudbury the MNR has engaged in a partnership

with a post-secondary school whereby the students remove the bears, with no cost to the municipality.

I say good for the city of Sudbury; I don't believe the city of Sudbury should have to pay. But I ask the Minister of Natural Resources to look into this issue

and, if it is so, to redress it so that municipalities across the north are treated equally and we don't have a duplicitous policy by a duplicitous minister who says the municipality of Sudbury

gets treated differently than everybody else across the province. What's good for Sudbury is good for everybody else. We think that's good for Sudbury, so do it for us as well.

MAY DODDS

Mr Bert Johnson (Perth-Middlesex): Since September 11, our society has been reminded of the number of real-life heroes who live among us and how

rarely we take time to thank them. I rise today to honour and thank a local hero from Stratford in my riding of Perth-Middlesex.

May Dodds has given more than 60 years of service to the Canadian Red Cross society and, in recognition of that, has been given the highest award in that

organization, the Order of the Red Cross. May, now 84 years of age, has been involved with the local Red Cross since 1938. Over those many years, May has worked on fundraising, public education

initiatives and administration. While none of those activities are dramatic enough to grab international headlines, those heroes we see delivering food to Afghan refugees and consoling families of

victims of terrorist acts in the United States wouldn't be there without the behind-the-scenes support of people like May.

May spent 28 years, from 1960 to 1988, as a volunteer administrator of the Stratford-Perth branch of the Red Cross. Later, May was instrumental in the effort to

build a new branch office, constructed in 1994. Many people in my riding, around Canada, and undoubtedly around the world owe thanks to May and others like her. I want to offer my appreciation, as

well as that of all members of this House, to May on the occasion of her award.

PROGRESSIVE CONSERVATIVE LEADERSHIP

Mr Dwight Duncan (Windsor-St Clair): Today is Halloween, but the Tory leadership candidates appeared to be trying out their costumes last

weekend in London.

Was that Elizabeth Witmer we saw dressed as the wolf in sheep's clothing? It certainly suits her, trying to be a moderate after what she's done to health and

labour.

Was that Janet Ecker dressed as a chameleon, trying to be a red Tory again, switching her colours back and forth? That's not going to fly in light of her

position on charter schools.

Was that Tony Clement dressed as the Grim Reaper, the one who wants to kill public health care in this country?

And was that Ernie Eves dressed as the Invisible Man, with Bob Runciman desperately trying to bring him out into the light? Bob, we've got news for you: even

Ernie can't save your party now.

That Dracula costume Jim Flaherty had on was really something. He sank his teeth into squeegee kids, he sank his fangs into private school tax credits, but how

far can he get with the Minister of Education trying to put the stake through his heart? We ask you that.

Chris Hodgson, that Frankenstein costume was great but, Minister, it's going to take a lot more than a couple of bolts of lightning to reanimate your campaign

after what the Premier did to you last winter.

And of course the Minister of Labour dressed as the court jester: a quick wit, a good sense of humour, but after what he's done to the king in the past, the

comments about anybody being able to become Premier, how much life does he have?

The sad thing is, when you take away the masks, they all look like Mike Harris, and that's really scary.

ST JOSEPH'S FRENCH

IMMERSION CENTRE

Mr John O'Toole (Durham): That's going to be hard to follow.

I rise today to draw to the attention of the House a visit I received from two distinguished guests from Bowmanville. My guests stopped at my office here at

Queen's Park during the last week of September and went on to meet with the Premier.

I should add that Curly and Chestnut are two teddy bears that will travel the world as part of an innovative project that a grade 5 class in Bowmanville launched

last year. Donna Paquette's class at St Joseph's French Immersion Centre is sending two teddy bears around the world via mail. This is a project that will help them study languages, geography, math

and cultures.

The bears have an itinerary that includes British Columbia, Hawaii, Texas, Switzerland and Mexico. The idea is that the students will track the bears' progress

and receive information and mementos of the trip. Each bear also carries a passport that will be signed and stamped by the people they meet.

Before embarking on their journey, Curly and Chestnut spent some time with local politicians, including His Worship the mayor of Clarington, John Mutton, before

visiting with me and Premier Harris. In fact, the bears were so impressed with their visit to Queen's Park that they are considering running for office at some time in the future, but certainly not

in Durham riding.

In all seriousness, I would like to commend principal Liz Ferguson and the grade 5 students at St Joseph's French Immersion Centre for travelling with the teddy

bears. This is a very creative learning opportunity for Mrs Paquette's class. Best of all, it looks like a lot of fun for the students. On behalf of Ontario, I want each of the students to know

that we wish Curly and Chestnut bon voyage.

REPORTS BY COMMITTEES

STANDING COMMITTEE ON REGULATIONS AND PRIVATE BILLS

Mr Rosario Marchese (Trinity-Spadina): I beg leave to present a report from the standing committee on regulations and private bills and move its

adoption.

Clerk at the Table (Mr Todd Decker): Your committee begs to report the following bill, as amended:

Bill Pr10,

An Act to revive 237661 Builders Limited.

Your committee begs to report the following bill without amendment:

Bill Pr23,

An Act to revive 1205458 Ontario Ltd.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Shall the report be received and adopted?

All those in favour will please say "aye."

All those opposed will please say "nay."

In my opinion, the ayes have it. The report is therefore adopted.

VISITORS

Mr Mario Sergio (York West): Mr Speaker, on a point of order: I would like to introduce to the House a number of students from my wonderful

region of Calabria who are on an exchange visit here and I would like to acknowledge them in the members' gallery.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): We welcome our honoured guests.

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

CELEBRATION OF PORTUGUESE

HERITAGE ACT, 2001 /

LOI DE 2001 SUR LA FÊTE

DU PATRIMOINE PORTUGAIS

Mr DeFaria moved first reading of the following bill:

Bill 120,

An Act to proclaim a day and a month to celebrate Portuguese heritage in Ontario / Projet de loi 120, Loi proclamant un jour et un mois de

fête du patrimoine portugais en Ontario.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

The member for a short statement.

Mr Carl DeFaria (Mississauga East): The month of June, and in particular June 10, has been celebrated as Portugal Day in Ontario and Canada.

The Portuguese community is a vibrant community in Ontario and continues to make contributions, with its rich history, language, culture and work ethic, to our fabric.

The month of June has always been a great time of celebration in the Portuguese community. I hope all members of the House will support this bill, the

Celebration of Portuguese Heritage Act.

VISITORS

Hon David Turnbull (Solicitor General): I'd like to recognize the presence in the gallery of Chief Glenn Stannard, the president of the

Ontario Association of Chiefs of Police; along with Chief Tom Kaye of Owen Sound; Bill Malpass, executive director of OACP; and Adrian Gordon of the Canadian Centre for Emergency Preparedness.

Welcome.

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY

AND RESPONSES

COUNTERTERRORISM MEASURES

Hon David Turnbull (Solicitor General): Premier Harris rose in the House yesterday and outlined some of the government's counterterrorism and

emergency management initiatives. Today, I'm pleased to announce further steps the province is taking to ensure that Ontario is better protected from terrorism. In total, these initiatives to

ensure the safety and security of Ontario will amount to more than $20 million.

I want to remind the Legislature of the commitments made by the Premier. The Ontario Provincial Police will receive $4.5 million annually to establish a

special provincial emergency response team. This unit will be composed of 32 highly trained and specially equipped OPP officers. As well, a new anti-terrorism unit with 24 officers will work in

partnership with municipal police services and federal law enforcement agencies. This unit will receive $3.5 million a year and conduct multi-jurisdictional intelligence operations that target

individuals and organized groups involved in terrorism.

We are also providing $1 million to make sure our front-line emergency workers have the necessary equipment to respond to chemical, biological and other kinds

of attack.

Finally, the Premier announced that the Ministry of the Solicitor General will host a counterterrorism summit to discuss the best ways to combat terrorism.

Now I'd like to outline the further measures our government is taking to ensure Ontario remains one of the safest places in the world.

Our security advisers tell us that 90% of counterterrorism is intelligence. Working closely with law enforcement agencies across the country and around the

world, it is critical to identify potential security threats. Today I am announcing that the province is investing $2.5 million in the Criminal Intelligence Service Ontario, CISO. This agency has

been a key part of the province's efforts to target organized crime. With this additional funding, we're enhancing its capacity to conduct counterterrorism intelligence and enforcement activities.

Under this expanded mandate, CISO will work closely with other law enforcement agencies and with the anti-terrorist unit announced by the Premier yesterday.

In recent weeks, our government has said it will take steps to help federal law enforcement officials track down individuals who are illegally in the province.

Today we are fulfilling that commitment. We will invest $1 million annually to expand the mandate of the repeat offender parole enforcement, or ROPE, squad. The squad will now include a fugitive

apprehension team. This new eight-member team will provide targeted enforcement acting on Immigration Act warrants.

In the wake of the September 11 attack, there have been a number of unacceptable incidents where threats and acts of violence have been directed at Ontario's

Muslim population. Let me make this perfectly clear: the Ontario government and the police who patrol our streets will not tolerate these acts. Criminal behaviour such as this will be investigated

thoroughly and prosecuted to the full extent of the law. To enhance our capacity to target hate crimes, we will provide additional officers and an additional $400,000 to the OPP's hate crimes

squad.

We will continue to enhance our emergency management system to ensure Ontario is prepared to handle a potential terrorist attack. To achieve this, our

government will invest more than $7 million annually to ensure Ontario is prepared for emergencies and to assist municipalities with emergency planning and training. This increased funding will

assist ongoing efforts to coordinate our existing emergency management measures.

Our government will double Emergency Measures Ontario's budget, with a $3-million increase in annual funding. An important element of our plan will be 28 new

staff who will work on Ontario's preparedness, supporting municipalities with emergency planning and training.

My ministry is currently drafting legislation which, if passed by the Legislature, would require Ontario municipalities to have emergency programs in place,

including plans and training exercises, as well as public education initiatives. This investment will also enable Emergency Measures Ontario to purchase a new mobile provincial operations centre. A

mobile unit will not only provide a backup system to the provincial operations centre, but also could be deployed during a localized emergency.

We will also assist municipalities by providing enhanced specialized training for front-line emergency workers. These emergency workers are the people who put

their lives on the line every time they respond to a call. By investing in specialized training, we will help ensure that first responders can manage large-scale, complex emergencies, threats and

hazards. To accomplish this, the province will invest $1 million a year on heavy, urban search-and-rescue training, training on how to respond to chemical, biological, radiological and nuclear

emergencies, and training on how to deal with hazardous materials.

Today we are also committing $600,000 to enhance Ontario's capability to test explosives, to test toxic or chemical agents, and to conduct larger-scale testing

of DNA. We will do this by developing more specialized forensic capacity at the province's internationally recognized Centre of Forensic Sciences.

We all know the important role volunteers play in communities across Ontario. When tragedies strike and our communities face adversity, we frequently turn to

our neighbours for assistance, but this is still a relatively untapped resource when it comes to emergency preparedness in Ontario. That's why we will invest $1 million to assist municipalities

that choose to participate in a community emergency volunteer program. Similar initiatives are currently running in other jurisdictions. For example, in British Columbia, about 13,000 volunteers

offer their time and expertise. Under this program, Ontarians will be invited to volunteer to assist in preparing for and responding to emergency situations. The province will be there to help

train volunteers. We will provide them with the skills to assist their neighbours in times of need.

We've all been told of the life-saving value of building evacuation plans when it comes to safety. The need for these plans was driven home by the attack on

the World Trade Center. Today I'm announcing $600,000 to assist the Ontario fire marshal's office as it works with the owners and operators of large buildings and public places. In partnership with

the private sector, we will be preparing best-practices guidelines for emergency evacuation procedures of these facilities.

In closing, let me say that we must be vigilant, but we must continue to live our lives and to do our work. Terrorists seek to destroy, and they also seek to

spread fear. We cannot and we will not allow this to happen. Today's announcements, combined with the initiatives the Premier announced yesterday, will improve the province's counterterrorism

capability and emergency preparedness. They will ensure that Ontario is better protected from those who seek to harm us and our families. With the ongoing advice of our security advisers, former

RCMP Commissioner Norman Inkster and retired Major Major General Lewis MacKenzie, we will continue to seek out ways to further strengthen Ontario's security and we will continue to work with other

levels of government and other jurisdictions to protect our citizens.

CROSS-BORDER TRADE

AND SECURITY

Hon Robert W. Runciman (Minister of Economic Development and Trade): Yesterday, the Premier and Ministers Young and Hudak provided a report

back to the Legislature on action this government has taken since the tragic events of September 11. Today, I will continue that report back on steps we are taking to safeguard our province's

economy in light of increasing US concerns about the safety of the US-Canada border.

I believe there is an increased understanding of the importance of our trading relationship with the United States and a growing awareness of the threat posed

to our economy if our American friends do not have confidence in Canada's ability to protect our border from undesirables.

Once more, for the record, I will outline the significance of our trading relationship with the United States, the largest such relationship in the world: 93%

of our exports; 1.5 million jobs; $210 billion in US export business, representing 48% of Ontario's economy. Access to this market is critical to the future economic success of our great

province.

Improved traffic flow across international border crossings was an issue recognized and addressed by the Harris government well before September 11. The New

York-Ontario summit held in June of this year considered this issue at length, and the report from that gathering will be released in November.

September 11, however, cast US-Canada border crossings in a different light. We were no longer focusing solely on issues like infrastructure and pre-clearance.

Instead, those issues, those concerns, those priorities fell to the sidelines. The American people and their governments shifted their focus, understandably, to security: the security of their

people, their institutions, their way of life and their borders.

Our leader, Mike Harris, recognized immediately the new reality that flowed from the horrific events of September 11, and along with US Ambassador Paul

Cellucci called for a North American security perimeter in order to protect Canadian access to the US market. Our Premier, Mike Harris, and Ambassador Cellucci have since been joined by Premiers

across Canada, business leaders and everyday Canadians in the call for this critical security measure. Regrettably, to date, our federal government has been reticent in embracing this proposal.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Order. Would the minister take his seat. Sorry, Minister.

Hon Mr Runciman: Once again, regrettably, to date, our federal government has been reticent in embracing this proposal, and the public

explanation for that reticence is the supposed or perceived loss of sovereignty that such an initiative would bring.

This is not a concern our government shares. The reality is that sovereignty without security is meaningless.

Our government is not prepared to adopt a wait-and-see approach, a head-in-the-sand hope that with time all will be well. We are moving, and moving on a range

of fronts.

On October 16, Premier Harris and I met with New York Governor George Pataki and his officials to discuss transborder issues, and we agreed to adopt a joint

report which we will share with our respective federal governments.

We have requested a meeting with Great Lakes governors to discuss ways of dealing with our respective and shared economic concerns. We've kept in regular touch

with key Ontario stakeholders to monitor significant economic and security issues. We have listened to and addressed stakeholder issues, concerns and suggestions. I have written federal ministers

Manley, Tobin and Pettigrew, underscoring in the strongest possible terms the need for action.

The Speaker: It's too noisy. Member, come to order. The member for Windsor-St Clair, please come to order.

I've said this on a couple of occasions. The opposition wonders why the statements aren't made in the House. I've asked and made inquiries of the government

and they say, "When we do, all that happens is the opposition yells at us." It's little wonder that statements don't happen in this House when all you do is shout and yell. You'll have an

opportunity for a five-minute reply in which the media can have your leader making a reply, or you can stand and shout. Quite frankly, that's why a lot of the statements don't get made in this

House, because the opposition just stand and yell constantly at the other side. I've said this before. There is going to be some heckling, but when you yell constantly it's little wonder the

government doesn't make statements in this House.

Sorry, Minister.

Hon Mr Runciman: Thank you, Mr Speaker. This Friday, November 2, Premier Harris and I will host an industry leaders round table. Invited

participants include CEOs of leading Ontario industries, businesses dependent on cross-border commerce. Our purpose is to discuss how best to approach the wide range of economic cross-border trade

and security issues that must be addressed.

This forum will help us develop an action plan to guide future decision-making, decisions that will ensure Ontario's cross-border trade and commerce remain

vital and competitive.

Business leaders will also discuss how they are dealing with unprecedented impacts on their organizations. We will look to them to help us determine how

business and government can work together to develop a concrete set of actions, and those suggestions will be captured in a round table report.

I used the term "action plan" because that's just what the product of the round table will be. We cannot afford to be inactive. We cannot afford to be

complacent. We cannot put in jeopardy our access to American markets and the jobs and investment decisions that are clearly linked to that access.

I want to assure members of the assembly and the people of Ontario that our government has been, and will continue to be, in the forefront of activities that

will ensure that trade between Canada and the United States, and Ontario's economy, do not become victims of the terrorist attacks of September 11.

COUNTERTERRORISM MEASURES

Mr Dave Levac (Brant): I appreciate the opportunity to speak to the Solicitor General on behalf of my caucus and my leader, Dalton McGuinty. I

want to make it very clear from the outset that we welcome the announcement about funding for emergency measures and emergency responses. We absolutely do. We think it's an appropriate thing to do.

But it's unfortunate that it's 48 days after September 11 and you've finally decided to take actions you could have taken before.

To the Solicitor General, I want to say that perhaps this was an indication the minister has finally reread the report that's been on his desk since June, from

his already-hired six security experts. It's amazing to think that he's had a report on his desk since June that deals specifically with emergency response. Or perhaps this is an acknowledgement

that the minister has finally read the 1998 report from Queen's University, which stated the following: "EMO was not prepared to handle such a large-scale emergency," particularly in cases where

people lose their lives.

So after four years and two reports, we're now finally getting action from this minister. Funding for the special unit dealing with terrorism is a good step. I

wait to see if this actually means new police officers or a shuffling of other officers already on the beat.

Dalton McGuinty's plan, the Ontario security plan, would put $100 million into the coffers now. You're taking a lot of credit for $20 million in spending.

That's $20 million in spending for our security versus $100 million for our security. I think the leader's plan puts that one to shame. Why? Because it deals with $50 million worth of funding from

the provincial level, which is already over your $20 million, but more importantly it puts $50 million in municipal people's hands to decide how they want to secure their communities.

Just yesterday, from a press release, we find out there are municipalities across the province that are having difficulty keeping the proper number of

firefighters in service since September 11. You know as well as I do that it was firefighters who were the first on the scene, and the largest number of people to lose their lives in the profession

were firefighters. Guess what? The word "firefighter" was never mentioned once in this report. Shame on the government for not addressing the specifics about what you're going to do for our

firefighters across Ontario.

I want to say to you, Minister: it's time to put up or shut up.

CROSS-BORDER TRADE

AND SECURITY

Mr Monte Kwinter (York Centre): I want to respond to the minister's statement. In it he says the whole report back is "to safeguard our

province's economy," and then goes on to talk about anything but the economy. When we take a look at what is happening and you talk about the concerns of safety, surely your role is to co-operate

with the federal officials in Canada and the federal officials in the United States. It is not your role to usurp their responsibility. The free flow of goods and services with our major customer

is what you should be concerned with.

You say this is "critical to the future economic success of our great province." What I suggest is that continued economic success is important, not just the

future. You've got to look after what's happening today.

You had a conference with the New York-Ontario summit. It was held in June of this year to look into these exact same issues. The report is coming out in

November, six months after it was initiated. Not only that, but by the time you start responding to that report --

Hon Robert W. Runciman (Minister of Economic Development and Trade): Look at what happened in New York City. That's totally unfair.

Mr Kwinter: You said it. You said it in your report.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Order. The member take his seat. Stop the clock. You'll have some time.

Interjection.

The Speaker: Order. Minister, come to order, please.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Last time. Order. This is the last warning. We'll start throwing people out, starting right now.

Sorry for the interruption. You have 32 seconds left.

Mr Kwinter: He says infrastructure and pre-clearance have fallen by the wayside. I don't believe that should fall to the sidelines or by the

wayside. This is something we have to be concerned with. Auto plants are shutting down production because they can't get parts. There's trouble at the border. We have a road, the Huron Church Road,

going into Detroit from Windsor. You had lots of time to do that.

The last thing I want to talk about is the sovereignty issue. These are not mutually exclusive issues. You can protect our sovereignty and protect our

security. One is not dependent on the other, and you can't give up one for the other.

Mr Howard Hampton (Kenora-Rainy River): I find the comments today of the minister responsible for trade to be really quite incredible. What it

amounts to is this: he is essentially saying that we should adopt American standards. He's essentially saying we should turn over the independence of decision-making and the independence of

standards to the United States. I say to the minister, think carefully about what you're saying.

The United States does not have, in any of these matters, exactly a leading-edge strategy. Their strategy along the Mexican border for 20 years has been

incredibly expensive in terms of resources and money and has been a dismal failure. The United States, in terms of its border with Canada, has for many years had much looser enforcement than Canada

Customs has. I know it. I live on the border; you live on the border. I know about people trying to access Canada carrying a rifle or a shotgun. And customs officers cannot for the life of them

figure out how this person, who's in fact a fleeing felon, was ever able to carry a firearm. But that goes on routinely in the United States.

I ask the minister to think this through carefully. The reality in the United States is that this agenda -- for us to adopt their customs rules, their

immigration rules, their forestry practices, their system of privatized health care -- existed before September 11. It is a long-standing position of the United States on trade policy. Don't use

the horrific events of September 11 as an excuse to start folding on all of those issues, because I can tell you that at the end of the day -- and this too is part of American policy -- after we've

adopted their processes for immigration, their processes for customs and many other processes, they will still reserve the right to say no, just as they've done with softwood lumber -- and you know

it. We have been before softwood lumber panels for 20 years, and every time we've proven that the American position is wrong, yet they still come back and harass us outside of the rules of the

NAFTA agreement, outside of the rules of the free trade agreement.

Don't give in to an agenda which was there before September 11. It is not an agenda that is good for the people of Ontario, and it is not an agenda that will

stand up to any test of analysis. Stand up for Ontario. Don't adopt a 51st state agenda.

COUNTERTERRORISM MEASURES

Mr Peter Kormos (Niagara Centre): I respond to the statement made by the Solicitor General. Look, everyone understands the need this

government has, political and otherwise, to respond to the crisis, the tragedy of September 11, but I want the Solicitor General and his government to understand that the crisis in our front-line

emergency services didn't begin on September 11.

The fact is, there are fewer cops per capita today than there were in 1995. Reality is that firefighting services across this province, municipality after

municipality, find themselves understaffed and underresourced. Reality is that paramedics, those brave women and men on the front lines along with police officers, along with firefighters, find

themselves condemned and, quite frankly, abused by this government that treats them with disdain.

I say to you, Solicitor General, that the crisis is one of chronic downloading on to municipalities across this province and a denial of the real resources

that those municipalities need to maintain adequate staffing levels when it comes to policing for, yes, those day-to-day policing responsibilities, because at the end of the day it's those police

forces that are going to be called upon. There may well be a crack team of OPP officers, but a crisis by its very nature is going to be something that is imminent and critical and cannot

accommodate the travel of your crack OPP team to whatever municipality finds itself confronting that crisis.

I ask this Solicitor General to reflect on the abandonment by this government of native policing services across northern Ontario. I've visited communities

like Fort Albany, Peawanuk and Attawapiskat with the member from Timmins-James Bay, Gilles Bisson. I saw those native policing services abandoned by this government, oftentimes one-person police

services, boats without motors, snowmobiles without tracks. There is a crisis. That crisis pre-existed September 11 with native policing services and indeed it dates back to 1995.

This government should be addressing the chronic crisis in underfunding and underresourcing of front-line emergency services across this province.

DON FORESTELL

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Just before we begin with question period, I want to draw to the members' attention the presence of a special

guest seated at the table. Please join me in welcoming Don Forestell, the Clerk Assistant of the New Brunswick Legislative Assembly, who is here for two weeks on an attachment in the Clerk's

office.

ORAL QUESTIONS

EMERGENCY PREPAREDNESS LEGISLATION

Mr Dalton McGuinty (Leader of the Opposition): My first question of the day is for the Solicitor General, who I understand was here just a

moment ago.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Stop the clock, please. Maybe we can just start it all over. He's visiting with some of the guests.

The leader of the official opposition.

Mr McGuinty: Minister, it has been some 49 days since September 11, and I think we could describe your government's response as, at best,

lethargic and uninspired.

Interjections.

Mr McGuinty: I understand that there is some sensitivity on this aspect.

The Speaker: The member from London-Fanshawe, come to order. This is his last warning, last warning for the member from London-Fanshawe. We're

not going to start off like that with the first question.

Leader of the official opposition. Sorry for the interruption.

Mr McGuinty: I can understand why there is some sensitivity on the part of government members, because if you look at the record, what have we

had? We've had a full-page newspaper ad, corporate tax cuts, some very skimpy support offered to our police, and the usual expressions of concern and condemnation of all things related to

terrorism.

I can tell you, Minister, that I have had the opportunity to visit ground zero and I have personally witnessed the destruction. I have talked to New Yorkers

and I have talked to many people who are expert in the matters of emergency preparedness. One of the things they keep driving home is that one of the most important things we have to do is have in

place, in all of our cities and towns, an emergency preparedness plan. Why is it that 49 days after September 11, you have yet to introduce in this House a bill that will require all of our cities

and towns to have in place an emergency preparedness plan?

Hon David Turnbull (Solicitor General): In a general sense, I have to say that I am very sad that the Liberals in this province try to make a

political football out of something as serious as this. Our government has worked co-operatively with the federal government and with municipalities --

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. Solicitor General, take your seat.

The member for Ottawa, this is his last warning as well. We'll start taking names.

Interjection.

The Speaker: Order. Don't be smart-alecky like that or I'll throw you out right now. Is that what you want? Because you're not going to yell

at me like that. You can yell at the other side, but you're not going to yell at me. You want out? I'll send you out right now, if that's what you want. It doesn't matter to me.

Sorry, Solicitor General.

Hon Mr Turnbull: We have worked very carefully with both the federal and municipal levels of government in developing plans. We appointed two

advisers who have great expertise, Major General Lew MacKenzie and Norman Inkster. As we've worked through our plans, in co-operation with the commissioner of the OPP and in conference with

emergency preparedness people from all across the province, there has been one common strain: what are the important things we must do to make sure that Ontario remains one of the safest places in

the world?

With the announcements that both the Premier and I have made to date, we are making major steps forward. But we are not trying to make it into a political

football.

Mr McGuinty: I say again, Minister: lethargic and uninspired. One of the most important things I have learned that you must do is make every

effort to coordinate activities and efforts when it comes to emergency preparedness. You have to keep people informed. You have to be working together.

That's why we were all so very surprised by Toronto police chief Julian Fantino's comments when he said, "I don't know what's planned for the city of Toronto.

It would be nice for us to hear. As for being police chief of the largest city force in Canada, I'm certainly not in the loop."

Minister, our American neighbours are on red alert, and our own advisers have said that we have to get ready for an emergency. How is it that 49 days later,

the chief of police for the largest city in the country, arguably the city which would be the most susceptible to an attack by terrorists, is telling us he's not in the loop?

Hon Mr Turnbull: Since we became the government of Ontario, we have made safety and protection of our citizens the top priority. The

amendments to the Emergency Plans Act that I have announced are important. We will make sure that municipalities have emergency plans and that indeed training and public initiatives are undertaken.

In the announcements I have made today --

Mr Mike Colle (Eglinton-Lawrence): What about Chief Fantino?

The Speaker: Minister, take a seat. Member for Eglinton-Lawrence, this is your last warning too.

Mr Colle: I want to know why he didn't consult Chief Fantino, the chief of the city of Toronto, why he won't answer that question.

The Speaker: Now you're out. I name Michael Colle and ask you to leave the chamber, please.

Mr Colle was escorted from the chamber.

The Speaker: Sorry again for the interruption. Solicitor General.

Hon Mr Turnbull: I would say that Chief Fantino, along with the chiefs of Ontario, has been broadly consulted, as have all people involved in

emergency services. You would have to ask Chief Fantino the answer to that, but I can tell you that I have personally met with him and ministry officials have met with him on an ongoing basis.

Additionally, we are announcing today significant amounts of money, which will help the city of Toronto specifically with some of their concerns.

Mr McGuinty: I hope you begin at some point along the way to understand that safety and security have to be more than just a slogan. I want to

offer my assistance to you, Minister, when it comes to expediting the passage of an emergency preparedness law here in Ontario, but I also want to tell you --

Interjection.

Mr McGuinty: Thank you, Mini-Mike, for your comments.

Minister, I also want to tell you that we're going to have to help our cities and towns get ready for a potential emergency, and that's going to cost money in

terms of preparing the plan, training the staff and practising the plan. Once you have a plan in place, you also begin to understand that there are other places where you may be coming up short in

terms of beefing up your security. That's why we put forward our Ontario security fund, to help our municipalities prepare in case of an emergency. The question I have for you, Minister, is, why

won't you support our Ontario security fund and emergency preparedness in Ontario?

Hon Mr Turnbull: Let me tell you, my first suggestion to you, sir, would be to get a new gag writer, because it ain't too funny to most of the

people of Ontario. This is a serious matter.

I can tell you that in speaking with the officials, as I have done, they approve of what we're moving forward with. When I spoke to Chief Speed today, he was

very supportive of the actions we are taking that will help the Toronto fire services. So I think you'd better get some better research than one of the local newspapers.

EDUCATION FUNDING

Mr Dalton McGuinty (Leader of the Opposition): My question is for the Minister of Education. Minister, the policy manifesto adopted by the

Ontario PC Campus Association outlines the following plan for education: "Phase 1 is to introduce charter schools into Ontario. The second phase is to implement vouchers in Ontario's public

education system." They go on to say under this very radical education plan, "Any school, public, charter or private, will receive the same amount of money."

We are very interested in your opinions on this, because in addition to your responsibilities as Minister of Education, you are now vying for the leadership of

the government. So can you tell us, Madam Minister, where do you stand on these fundamental issues related to education?

Hon Janet Ecker (Minister of Education, Government House Leader): I appreciate the honourable member trying to make an announcement for me,

but I don't need help in that regard, thank you very much.

First of all, the policies of this government are very, very clear. We respect parental choice. We make new investments into the public education system. We've

supported, through a tax credit, parental choice and independent schools. We're setting standards for higher, improved student learning and are putting in supports to make sure that we can get that

improved student learning. Those are the commitments of this government. Those are the plans that we're working on. Those are the plans that the public of Ontario has voted for in 1995 and again in

1999 and will do so again.

Mr McGuinty: I'll tell you why it's so very interesting to us. Of course, it's interesting to those whose support you are trying to gain in

your bid for the leadership. We are very concerned about whether or not you support vouchers, whether or not you support charter schools and whether or not you support private school funding.

Now, you can become positively schizophrenic about this, Madam Minister, and give one message to the PC youth associations and another message to Ontarians at

large. But I think your first responsibility is to Ontarians at large, so I'll give you the opportunity once more to renounce once and for all anything to do with charter schools and vouchers and

private school funding. Will you now do that?

Hon Mrs Ecker: First of all, perhaps in the Liberal Party having a wing of young people who wish to express their views is not tolerated, but

in this party we have young people who have views. You know what, Mr Speaker? We allow them to express those views, whether we agree with them or not. So I encourage the young Tories. I would

encourage the young Liberals to join the young Tories, because obviously they don't have any room to have a view or a debate or a discussion about important issues like education in the Liberal

Party.

The record of this government, the record of this minister and the commitments we've made to the people of Ontario for our education plan to improve student

learning speak for themselves.

Mr McGuinty: I fully support the right of the PC youth associations to put forward their positions, but I think you also have a responsibility

to put forward your position. That's what we're interested in hearing. I know where they stand; what I want to know today is where you stand.

I'll come back to the same issues again. When it comes to charter schools, Madam Minister, where do you stand? When it comes to vouchers, where do you stand?

When it comes to funding for private schools, where do you stand? I know where the Ontario PC Youth Association stands. What I want to know here and now today is, where do you stand?

Hon Mrs Ecker: To the honourable member, his party went out with great fanfare and talked about parental choice. They said they supported

parental choice. We have yet to hear how the Liberal Party would defend or define or put in place parental choice for the parents of Ontario.

On this side of the House, the record of this government, the commitments I have made as Minister of Education are to higher standards in our public education

system, to helping our students meet those standards, to a more improved curriculum, to improved investments in our public education system, to parental choice within the public education system.

You know what, Mr Speaker? We also on this side of the House respect parental choice when they go to independent schools, and the tax credit is doing that as well.

With the commitment on this side of the House, we don't need to explain ourselves to the Liberal Party, because we've been out --

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Order. The minister's time is up.

ONTARIO ECONOMY

Mr Howard Hampton (Kenora-Rainy River): I have a question for the Minister of Finance. Minister, if Ontario's economy today were a movie, it

would be Nightmare on Main Street. Bay Street will do fine; you've had lots of treats for them. But for ordinary people across this province, every new day brings more job cuts and more small

businesses in trouble.

CIBC is now laying off 2,000 people. Sam the Record Man is calling it quits. Algoma Steel, your government admits -- 70,000 jobs are involved -- hangs by a

thread. You've had lots of treats for your corporate friends on Bay Street. What is your government's answer to all of those people across Ontario who are worried about losing their job or who have

already lost their job?

Hon Jim Flaherty (Deputy Premier, Minister of Finance): The decisions that have been taken in the course of the past six years have been of

vital importance in re-creating in Ontario a solid foundation, a diversified economy, an economy with strength and an economy with breadth. That's the best protection we can have in Ontario during

a time of economic slowdown, that is, inherent strength in our economy because of the difficult decisions that were made in the past six years. We've continued those decisions. The tax reductions

that were planned for January 1, 2002, have been accelerated. The capital tax, the personal income tax, the corporate income tax: all of that is moving again toward long-term sustainable growth in

Ontario, which is always our best protection in a time of economic slowdown.

Mr Hampton: Since you've become Minister of Finance, all we've heard is more rhetoric about how corporations need more tax cuts and the

well-off need more tax cuts. But in your time as Minister of Finance, 26,000 jobs in this province have gone down the drain. Clearly, your old trick isn't working. Clearly, every day more companies

are laying off and more companies are saying they intend to lay off.

Municipalities are asking you to put some of the SuperBuild money out the door so that they can take care of needed infrastructure projects. Communities out

there, where workers have been laid off, need some help.

Don't give them more rhetoric about how you're going to be kind to corporations or how the well-off are going to get another personal income tax cut. What are

you doing for the people in this province who are really hurting?

Hon Mr Flaherty: We have removed thousands and thousands of relatively low income earners totally from the tax rolls in Ontario. That's

important. That means significant savings for individuals.

The job creation in the course of the past six years has been unprecedented in Ontario, all of this because of good, sound fiscal policy in the province.

I can tell you that view of fiscal restraint and prudent management is shared by the other finance ministers in Canada with whom I met on Sunday. Certainly the

principle of tax cuts is accepted broadly in Canada, including by the federal Liberal government. Certainly there is a view that is shared broadly in Canada among those of us responsible for

finance that now is not the time for imprudent spending, now is not the time for deficits; now is the time for continued sound financial management in Canada.

Mr Hampton: What has become obvious is that as Ontario's economy has gotten into trouble, rigor mortis has set in for your government.

Minister, communities out there need the SuperBuild money so that they can get busy taking care of the infrastructure projects which will create jobs in their

communities. People who work pay taxes, and they go to the shopping mall and contribute to the economy.

Other communities out there need some signal from your government that there's going to be a solidarity fund or some kind of economic strategy to help

industries that are in trouble, to help them reposition themselves. Algoma Steel and A.G. Simpson are good examples.

Consumers out there -- it is so bizarre. Your government defends tax cuts for corporations, you defend tax cuts for the well-off, but in terms of the average

consumer out there, you absolutely refuse to institute a reduction in the sales tax, something that would be of benefit to 11 million people across this province, and get them back participating in

the economy.

Don't give us more tired rhetoric. When are you going to respond to the municipalities? When are you going to respond to consumers with a sales tax reduction?

How are you going to respond to those laid-off workers who won't get a cent of benefit from corporate tax cuts?

Hon Mr Flaherty: With respect to reductions in provincial sales tax, or for that matter federally, reductions in the GST, I think the general

consensus is that those types of programs result in what they call in the auto industry, for example, "pulling-ahead sales." So, yes, there's a temporary acceleration of sales, but all you're doing

is bringing forward sales that would happen in January and February, which then don't happen in January and February. So it's a very temporary kind of initiative with no long-term benefit for the

economy.

I say to the member opposite that we need to be calm, that we need to look forward. We need to look at the medium and the long term, what's good for the people

of the province of Ontario not just next week but next year and over the course of the next five to 10 years.

If he wants to be helpful in the short term with respect to a very important issue for the auto sector in Ontario and for other industries in Ontario, he can

help support our demand for a common North American customs perimeter, which is of utmost importance --

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): The Minister of Finance's time is up.

COMPETITIVE ELECTRICITY MARKET

Mr Howard Hampton (Kenora-Rainy River): Again to the Minister of Finance. Yesterday the US ambassador came here to the Toronto area to deliver

a speech wherein he said that it's time "to speed up the approval process for pipelines and electricity transmission lines between Canada and the US." He was very clear that the United States wants

an open market in electricity so that they can in effect purchase as much of Ontario's electricity as they want.

What we all know that means, when the market opens, is that our electricity prices will rise to the price that prevails in places like New York: 100% higher.

This is going to be very good for investors who own the generation plants. It's going to be very bad for Ontario consumers. Yet your government continues to deny this. Can you tell us, are you

simply out of the loop or do you ignore everything that the US ambassador is saying about how much they want our electricity and how much the price will increase?

Hon Jim Flaherty (Deputy Premier, Minister of Finance): I think the Minister of Energy wants to answer.

Hon Jim Wilson (Minister of Energy, Science and Technology): It may come as a shock to the honourable member that the former Treasurer of his

party, the Honourable Floyd Laughren, as head of the Ontario Energy Board has ordered that companies must increase the capacity of the inter-ties between Ontario and the United States. Why? Not

because we're going to favour the United States but because we have very successful electricity companies here.

The honourable member is wrong. Our price today is very favourable to the United States, and for decades power has gone back and forth across the border. In

fact, it was with great pride that last year there was a ceremony to recognize Ontario's contribution -- this was before the September 11 tragedy -- of power to New York City at noon and

dinnertime, peak hours, on many, many days during an average year.

Mr Hampton: Minister, you try very hard to avoid the reality of this. In an open market you will no longer be able to tell generators in

Ontario that they must supply the power to Ontario consumers at a lower price. Whatever consumers in New York are prepared to pay, and right now they're paying 123% more, that is what Ontario

consumers will pay, and the ambassador, Mr Cellucci, admits it. He's very clear about it.

Since you're so busy opening the market and since he's saying to you, "Open the market quickly. Open it completely," will you acknowledge what he acknowledges?

The reality of an open market in electricity, the reality of selling off Ontario's electricity system, is that the price of electricity here will rise and be the same as the price of electricity in

New York or Boston or Michigan; ie, our prices are very quickly going to rise substantially, perhaps double. He admits it. Why won't you?

Hon Mr Wilson: I went through this with the honourable member in the estimates committee yesterday but I will try again. I don't know why the

honourable member wants Ontario not to have electricity jobs -- good jobs like power worker union jobs, some of the best-paid jobs here in Ontario.

Quebec's utility is considered a jewel of French Canada and a jewel around the world with French-speaking peoples. They take great pride. They make billions of

dollars a year selling into the United States, and the lights don't go out in Quebec.

We all know how much money BC Hydro made and how many jobs were created when California was in an energy crisis.

Alberta -- thank God Alberta doesn't have the same views you have. There'd be no natural gas in the United States, no oil. There aren't enough people in

Alberta to use all the natural gas and oil they dig up every day.

You need to have international markets but you need the head offices here, you need the jobs here and you need those good-quality jobs. You just asked a

question about jobs, and now we're trying to create some, and you're trying to throw it out with your conspiracies.

ONTARIANS WITH DISABILITIES LEGISLATION

Mr Dalton McGuinty (Leader of the Opposition): My question is for the Minister of Citizenship. You will recognize that the Premier made a very

specific promise to enact an Ontarians with Disabilities Act. You will also know how long ago he made that promise. You will also know how long it has been that the one and a half million Ontarians

with disabilities have waited for him to deliver on that promise. It's been nearly seven years.

Minister, we understand now that you could be introducing a bill on this subject as soon as tomorrow. Three years ago, on a resolution proposed by our party,

this House unanimously adopted 11 principles to be incorporated in this new piece of legislation. Will you commit today that your bill will abide by the 11 principles unanimously supported by this

House?

Hon Cameron Jackson (Minister of Citizenship, minister responsible for seniors): I'm sure the honourable member is aware that I have responded

to this and several other questions about the ODA in the last few weeks. He would also be aware that we have consulted quite widely with disabled groups and individuals and stakeholders across the

province. The principles he suggests have been widely discussed.

It would appear, perhaps, that the member opposite has not had much of a consultation with municipalities. I cite one example that I have cited in the House

before, that if the Liberal Party fully supports complete, overriding provisions in the Municipal Act, as one example, that is not an issue municipalities are encouraged about.

When the honourable member sees the legislation, when it's tabled, he will see very clearly that these principles have been strongly considered and that there

are opportunities in this legislation to move forward for persons with disabilities unlike any other government has done in Canada.

Mr McGuinty: Minister, I distinguish between something that is strongly considered and something that is unequivocally endorsed. I'm sure the

Ontarians with disabilities will listen with great interest to your response.

Our party has been fighting for nearly seven years to get a strong and effective Ontarians with Disabilities Act, but that's not nearly as long as David

Lepofsky and his committee have been fighting for this. It's one thing to keep the one and a half million Ontarians with disabilities waiting this long and it's quite another to shut them out of

the process to lend shape to the actual legislation. That would be to add insult to injury.

I'm asking on their behalf that the committee that will be assigned the responsibility to deal with this new piece of legislation will travel immediately after

first reading, that it won't just stay here in Toronto but will go to Thunder Bay and Windsor and Ottawa and points in between. Minister, do I have your commitment that this legislation will go to

committee after first reading and that the committee will travel?

Hon Mr Jackson: This question has already been raised and it has already been responded to.

I want to go back to what the member has asked about the 11 principles. If there is anything the disability community has waited for over the last seven years,

it has also been a commitment from the Liberal Party and the Liberal opposition. Just in your own report of your assessment of the situation confronting disabled persons in this province, you

indicate that after you publish a reiteration of the principles -- are you prepared to fund them, are you prepared to cost them and are you prepared to commit to them? No, you are not.

What the Liberals will do is that they feel -- I quote directly from their report -- this is a good starting point for any discussions regarding any future

legislation. That's the problem. You would sit and discuss it for six years, like you did when you were the government. This government is going to table disability legislation that all disabled

persons can be proud of in this province.

ONTARIO CANCER

RESEARCH NETWORK

Mrs Julia Munro (York North): This question is for the Minister of Energy, Science and Technology. As this is Breast Cancer Awareness Month,

it is fitting to remind ourselves that breast cancer is the most common cancer among women. According to the Canadian Cancer Society, an average of 53 Canadian women will be diagnosed with breast

cancer every day and 15 will die of it. The good news is that breast cancer death rates have declined by 25% among women aged 50 to 69, and almost 14% overall since 1985.

Minister Wilson, last year you announced the government's commitment of $50 million to fund the Ontario Cancer Research Network. When can we expect to see this

network up and running?

Hon Jim Wilson (Minister of Energy, Science and Technology): The fight against cancer must continue and Ontario must continue to take a

leadership role. I think members will have noted in the newspaper last week that Ontario is the place of residence for the best researchers in the world. There was a wonderful media clip on that

last week. The Ontario Cancer Research Network is what the honourable Ernie Eves challenged us to set up, to look into new therapies and to make sure patients have access to new therapies,

treatments and prescription drugs sooner than they would if we didn't have that network here.

Dr Cal Stiller, chair of the Ontario research and development challenge fund, was asked to go out and consult with the cancer community, with researchers and

other health care experts, and he came back and recommended we establish the $50-million Ontario Cancer Research Network to better serve the people of Ontario and the world, but more importantly to

try and find a cure for this devastating disease.

Mrs Munro: That's extremely good news. Dr Phillips' expertise will be an invaluable asset to the Ontario Cancer Research Network and I am

pleased to hear he has agreed to take on this important task. It is apparent the government has made significant progress toward setting up the network, which I understand will provide an

innovative, new approach to conducting cancer research. Would the minister tell the House what the Ontario Cancer Research Network will achieve and how it will achieve it?

Hon Mr Wilson: The $50 million is to be spent over three years. The network will be a non-profit organization. It will be headed by Dr Robert

Phillips, who is world renowned in the field of cancer and cancer research.

The network will invest in three key areas. Part of the $50 million will be used to double Ontario's capacity to conduct clinical research and will advance

existing research projects that are on the verge of yielding promising results. Second, the network will establish a network of provincial tumour banks. These will be used to support

laboratory-based research on why and how cancer tissues respond to various treatments. Finally, an on-line information network will be built that provides access to information on the status of

current clinical accessible research.

My brother died of cancer about a year and a half ago. His wife, a public health nurse, spent hours on the Internet, at hospital site after hospital site,

trying to find a clinical research program, some cure out there, some treatment out there. This will put it all into one site and link researchers around the world. If you have a loved one you want

to try a new therapy on that isn't quite approved by Ottawa yet, but they're looking for people to go into those clinical trials, into those research projects, you'll be able to go to one site and

get the best advice and access available in the world today.

FRANCHISE BUSINESSES

Mrs Marie Bountrogianni (Hamilton Mountain): My question is to the Minister of Consumer and Business Services, and is on behalf of the 40,000

franchise owners in Ontario who are vulnerable to the arbitrary termination of their franchise agreements.

Small businesses, the engine of this economy, entrepreneurs like my constituent Janis Snyder and 25 other Grand and Toy franchisees across the province will

lose their businesses with no reason given or compensation offered. All but two Grand and Toys will be closed this December. A specialist in the field brought these loopholes and potential

disasters to your attention during the hearings for the Arthur Wishart Act (Franchise Disclosure). This government chose to ignore the fact that the majority of problems in franchising occur after

signing the contract.

This is only the tip of the iceberg. I'm also hearing from other franchisees in the restaurant sector as well who are losing their lifelong investments. Will

the minister bring forward amendments to this franchise act that would require fair commercial standards in the termination, renewal and performance of franchise agreements?

Hon Norman W. Sterling (Minister of Consumer and Business Services): I am aware of this problem, and it has been raised with me by several

members of the government caucus.

Mr Speaker, as you may know, there is a class action underway by the franchisees against the franchisor in this case. As such, it would be somewhat

inappropriate for me to comment on the merits of the case. But I will say this: I have read the statement of claim of the franchisees, and the basis of their statement of claim is in fact the

Arthur Wishart Act.

Mrs Bountrogianni: Minister, the Arthur Wishart Act doesn't help them in this case. Disclosure is only if the contract is open. The franchisor

is closing the contracts, ending the contracts; therefore, they don't have to disclose.

There's a loophole here. You were warned about this loophole; check the Hansard. You must understand that the parties in franchise agreements are not on an

equal footing. Ontario's franchisees are looking to this government to level the playing field and extend the franchise act to include fair commercial practices in the performance and termination

of franchise agreements.

Without your commitment, these entrepreneurs remain vulnerable to the arbitrary actions of franchisors. My constituent Janis is a single mother with two

daughters. She employs 30 people and has invested everything into her business. Think of the ripple effect. Hundreds of people will lose their jobs and many small businesses will lose all their

investments.

Two things need to be done. First, the Arthur Wishart Act needs to be reopened and amended. Second, and in the meantime, will the minister take action and

protect these Grand and Toy franchisee victims in Ontario and avert the loss of hundreds of jobs?

Hon Mr Sterling: First of all, there was a private contract between the franchisees and the franchisors which allowed certain things to be

done or not done within the framework of those agreements. So a contract was signed. Presumably these people had legal advice with regard to the contract they were signing. If in fact the

franchisor is outside of those agreements within the contract, the franchisees will be able to sue for damages.

I must say to the member opposite that disclosure is not part of the lawsuit which the franchisees have put forward in this case. Again, the franchisees are in

fact relying on the very act that she is criticizing, the Arthur Wishart Act. Read the statement of claim.

WORKFARE

Mr Norm Miller (Parry Sound-Muskoka): My question today is for the Minister of Community and Social Services. Minister, this summer you

visited a number of communities in northern Ontario, including some stops to highlight some of the local successes in meeting the workfare targets. I know that in my community of Parry

Sound-Muskoka we more than doubled our targets, and this was an opportunity for people to gain some valuable work experience, but it also earned the local government $280,000 in workfare placement

rewards through the workfare placement reward program.

At the same time, though, I know that many of my northern Ontario colleagues from the opposition benches have said that workfare hasn't been the success that

we like to claim. When I hear the doom and gloom coming from the opposition members from northern Ontario, I wonder if workfare is as unpopular there as they like to make it out to be. What

evidence can you point to that can convince me that workfare is successful in northern Ontario?

Hon John R. Baird (Minister of Community and Social Services, minister responsible for children, minister responsible for francophone

affairs): Back in 1995, we set out to transform a welfare system that wasn't working for people. It wasn't providing that important hand up and that transition from welfare to work.

One of the exciting things I've seen in my travels around Ontario is that while workfare is a tremendous success in southern Ontario, the success is not the

same in the north. In fact, northern municipalities aren't just making the targets; they're doing tremendously well. They're doing much better than southern Ontario. Five of the top 10

municipalities with workfare targets around the province are in northern Ontario. In Kenora-Rainy River, both districts there, they had almost 400% of people participating in work for welfare above

their target. In Thunder Bay, the number was 371%. In Algoma and in Sault Ste Marie, they did tremendously well as well.

But let's look at what people on the ground are saying: "We do have a lot of people going off [welfare] who are finding employment, and considering that we

haven't had any major employers move into the area, that lump sum is very impressive." Who said that? Eddie Alton, the CAO of the Timiskaming DSSAB.

Mr Miller: I think it's fair to say that getting people off welfare and back into the workforce is not an easy job. Every person faces unique

challenges and barriers to getting back into the workforce. Within the workfare program, there need to be different kinds of supports to meet these needs. One of the most important goals is to help

put people on a track to a better and more prosperous future.

Minister, what actions have you taken to make sure that work for welfare does more than just put people into placements, that in fact it makes a meaningful

difference to them in the long term?

Hon Mr Baird: We set about to reform the welfare system and turn it from a handout to a hand up. We've seen some pretty impressive results

over the past six years, and with workfare, earnfare and learnfare, we've seen some really outstanding successes. We have about 97.5% of people with mandatory requirements on welfare participating

in one or more of our work-for-welfare activities. We had 183,000 people with mandatory requirements last year; 4,400 were terminated for non-compliance, but we saw about 68,000 people participate

in Ontario Works placements, which is an unbelievable accomplishment.

We have 3,600 people participating in self-employment activities; 104,000 taking basic education or job skills training; 134,000 participating in a structured

job search; 52,000 people in our work-for-welfare program getting a part-time job and participating in earnfare; and 3,300 people participating in our Learning, Earning and Parenting program. This

is undoubtedly part of the big success, seeing 600,000 people break free from a cycle of dependency.

FEDERAL COUNTERTERRORISM LEGISLATION

Mr Howard Hampton (Kenora-Rainy River): My question is for the Deputy Premier. I listened to the speech of the Attorney General yesterday,

when he said that he was going to Ottawa to lobby the federal justice minister for tougher anti-terrorism responses. Disturbingly, in his two-page speech, not once did he mention the civil

liberties of Ontario citizens.

As you know, the federal anti-terrorism legislation has drawn a great deal of criticism, one, because it does not contain a sunset clause. After the immediate

threat of terrorism passes, we do not and should not be suspending people's civil liberties. As well, it has drawn criticism because it is so broadly worded that merely holding a demonstration, a

protest or a strike could be included within the term "terrorism."

I want a commitment from you, Deputy Premier, that when you go to Ottawa, you will also lobby the federal government for a sunset clause, and you will stand up

for the civil liberties of Ontario people, not just the anti-terrorism measures.

Hon Jim Flaherty (Deputy Premier, Minister of Finance): Of course we support the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms -- I think most

Canadians do -- as part of our bundle of constitutional protections we enjoy as citizens of Canada. Having said that, these are extraordinary times. We are dealing with an extraordinary enemy in

terrorists living around the world.

We will continue to support the federal government's efforts to fight terrorism and terrorist activities. We are heartened that the proposed federal

legislation also intends to take steps to address hate propaganda on the Internet and hate crimes, including crimes targeting places of religious worship. In addition, when I was Attorney General,

we introduced our organized crime bill; it has been reintroduced as Bill 30. As you know, it will be a very useful tool, if passed, in addressing the issue of money laundering, which it is well

known, I believe, is --

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Order. I'm afraid the Minister of Finance's time is up.

Mr Hampton: Minister, the question was, will you insist that this legislation have a sunset clause so that the civil liberties of Ontario

citizens, and Canadians generally, will not be sacrificed? Will you insist that the definition of terrorism be narrowed so that someone holding a political protest, someone exercising their right

to free speech, is not then locked up?

I want to point out that the RCMP spokespersons, the CSIS spokespersons and even Julian Fantino, chief of the Toronto Police Service, have said that the issue

is not so much new legislation; the issue is a matter of resources. So he's asking why you haven't provided the resources for the Toronto Police Service. Even the heads of our police and security

organizations are saying, "We don't need a broader definition of terrorism. We don't need to clamp down on the civil liberties of our citizens. What we need is the resourcing." Would you helpfully

respond to that, ensure that we're not going to sacrifice our civil liberties, and respond to those police services that are saying that the real issue is resourcing, not taking away people's civil

liberties?

Hon Mr Flaherty: There are two questions there. One relates to trying to maintain a balance between the competing demands of privacy and civil

liberties and the security of our nation, the security of our families, the security of our communities, the security of our province, the security of Canada.

I'm sure the honourable member opposite is as concerned as we are on this side that we need to co-operate with federal law enforcement officials, with CSIS,

with the RCMP. We have the OPP. We're establishing our own anti-terrorism unit in Ontario. I'm sure the member opposite is as concerned as we are about the fundamental issue of security for our

families in Ontario at a time of unprecedented attack by terrorists. We need to try to maintain that balance. We have the benefit of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. We also have the

benefit of the steps we've taken.

I can tell you that discussions continue with law enforcement agencies around Ontario and federally to take every step that reasonably can be taken to protect

Canadians.

OSTAR PROGRAM

Mr Jean-Marc Lalonde (Glengarry-Prescott-Russell): My question is for the Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs. I would like to ask

you a question about your OSTAR program, or maybe it should be called the no-star program. There is certainly no money filtering down to rural municipalities, certainly not to eastern Ontario and

certainly not to Glengarry-Prescott-Russell.

On August 10, 2000, you made a big announcement indicating that there was $600 million available to rural municipalities for rural development; $240 million

was to upgrade municipal water and sewer systems to comply with your MOE regulations. Minister, 189 municipalities submitted over 600 applications, and municipalities have met with your staff on

several occasions.

On August 20, all the mayors from my riding met with you and your staff, and you told them at that time that they should expect an announcement within the next

two weeks. Ten weeks have gone by, and still no news. Minister, can you tell the mayors of rural Ontario when they can expect this announcement?

Hon Brian Coburn (Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs): I thank the member for the question. As the member knows, the OSTAR

project helps us to address some of the things that are a priority for this government, and certainly health and safety and water quality is one of them. As a result of that we announced that

$240-million program.

We have approved a number of preliminary engineering projects, as the member knows, and $3 million has been committed and expensed out to the municipalities

for their preliminary engineering projects. When that comes in, as the member knows, it goes to the Ministry of the Environment to be evaluated, to refine their parameters and take advantage of

some of the new technologies. That then permits the approval of the C of A. That's the process we've been going through now and, as we speak, those announcements will be happening

shortly.

Mr Lalonde: Minister, the people are no fools. I know it goes to the Ministry of the Environment and then to OMAFRA. The purpose of the August

20 meeting with you was that I was told by senior officials that municipalities should not expect any announcement before late fall. I think that official was right. But is it fall 2001 or

2002?

The mayor of Casselman told you at that meeting that their problem was urgent, that their water system, which was built under MOE supervision, was being held

together with chicken wire. On September 27 you made a statement in this House that money was currently being directed to high-priority projects. The rural municipalities are just getting tired of

your government games.

Minister, can you tell me when rural Ontario municipalities can expect answers, or have you been told by your finance minister not to approve any OSTAR

projects? Or maybe the real reason is that you have been told to wait until an election is called to make these announcements to make your government look good.

Hon Mr Coburn: Our government doesn't play games when it comes to the health and safety of the residents of Ontario. The $3 million that we

had approved for the preliminary engineering projects were an indication to all those municipalities whose projects were being considered. There's a rigorous process that is involved here so that

we can take advantage of some new technologies, so that we don't have piecework installations across the province, that we have installations that will be long-lasting and meet the new, rigid

drinking water regulations that we have. Some of this stuff is in the country.

Those projects are going through a process now and, as I indicated, no, there are no games being played here. We have the dough and we're working with the

municipalities. That will be coming forward shortly and we'll be able to provide infrastructure for healthy and safe communities long into the future.

COLLEGE STANDARDS AND ACCREDITATION

Mr John O'Toole (Durham): My question is to the Minister of Training, Colleges and Universities. I've heard you speak passionately about

training our workforce for the future and the important role that our colleges of applied arts and technologies play in this post-secondary educational system. Certainly I'm familiar first-hand

with the role of Durham College in my riding of Durham.

College provides, as you know, technical and applied education in communities across Ontario. College programs are unique because they focus directly on the

needs of communities and local industry. College grads go on to succeed in rewarding careers and are vital to ensure the skilled workforce we need to support innovation and new industry across our

province.

As we work to secure long-term prosperity as a government in this province, we have to count on the support of our colleges. Minister, what is our government

doing to ensure that Ontario's colleges are ready to play an important role in the economic prosperity of this province?

Hon Dianne Cunningham (Minister of Training, Colleges and Universities, minister responsible for women's issues): These are exciting times for

our college system. I appreciate the ongoing support and interest from our member from Durham.

As everyone knows, one of the most exciting times in the history of Ontario is the new students we will be getting in our colleges and universities. Our

colleges and universities are working together more than ever before. Because of our government's economic policies, we are in a position where we can plan for the future.

I think we have already told this House about the increased numbers in the money that went into our SuperBuild projects. We've got 25 projects at our

universities; 25 new projects at our colleges; we've got nine joint projects for 59 new buildings, to the tune of $1.9 billion, both with the private sector supporting us.

Never before have our colleges, our universities and our schools worked together in the interests of our young people so we can fill those skills gaps and help

them be trained for meaningful jobs.

Mr O'Toole: I'll tell you I'm confident of your support for the college and university system, most recently in the funding of operating funds

and certainly on the capital side under SuperBuild. But really it's a matter today of the type of education so that they have the minimum level of skills required to not only find skilled jobs but

to keep them. That demand is increasing.

Minister, we must teach our Ontario students to higher standards to ensure they are relevant and competitive in a skilled workforce. In addition to increasing

funding, what steps will you take to ensure that Ontario's colleges have the administrative and academic tools necessary to teach and train Ontario's workforce to the standards they will require in

the future?

Hon Mrs Cunningham: The member is quite correct: our colleges' operating fund is increasing by $23.6 million this year as part of a three-year

plan of $293 million. As he's already said -- very important -- we are increasing our funding for apprenticeship training by $33 million. We have promised to double the number of apprentices.

We are investing $50 million over five years into our colleges to upgrade their facilities so that young people will be attracted, and we can work with our

unions and with our communities to get more people into apprenticeship training.

The applied degree project, for which I will give a significant amount of credit to my colleague from Durham and to my other colleague representing Conestoga

College, is extremely important. This is where young people will be part of an applied degree program. The colleges will be applying very shortly, and we're looking at 24 new projects over three

years, and maybe more. This is all about apprenticeship training and getting ready for this big market where we must have skilled workers.

HEALTH CARE FUNDING

Mr Ted McMeekin (Ancaster-Dundas-Flamborough-Aldershot): My question was for the Minister of Health, but in his absence I'll go to the Deputy

Premier.

Last November I asked the Minister of Health's predecessor --

Interjection: There he is now, coming in late.

Mr McMeekin: He's out selling memberships.

My question is for the Minister of Health. Last November I asked your predecessor to give assurances to the people of Hamilton that they would not see the

capital costs of upgrading the Hamilton Health Sciences Corp slapped on to their property taxes. She acknowledged it was a good question and promised to review the situation and report back.

Now, almost a year later, we read today in the Hamilton Spectator that the HSC board chair, Marvin Ryder, wants another $75 million of health care capital

costs downloaded on to our already beleaguered property taxpayers. This would mean, according to the mayor, a total downloading of $126.5 million and at least a 7.5% tax increase every year for the

next decade for every single Hamilton taxpayer. Mr Ryder believes a special tax levy is needed. He states, "I understand the Hamilton tax situation, but if people see something marked Special on

their tax bill, they might feel better about it." Well, it certainly made me feel better. Why, it warmed me from head to toe.

Minister, do you agree with Mr Ryder? Do you think municipalities like the new city of Hamilton should see millions of dollars downloaded and a new special

health tax levy identified on their property tax bills?

Hon Tony Clement (Minister of Health and Long-Term Care): As the member is aware, it's nothing new. There has always been community

participation in new capital projects in Ontario. We have had dozens and dozens of examples of private fundraising, philanthropic gifts, community participation willingly in the capital drives of

our hospitals. This is no different than all these other examples that have happened in the decades since we have been attempting to rebuild our hospitals in Ontario.

So if the honourable member is asking me whether there's a requirement that the city of Hamilton or the city of Hamilton taxpayers through their property taxes

participate, there is no requirement, but there is and always has been an expectation of community participation; 70% comes through taxpayers' funds from the province of Ontario and 30% comes

locally.

Mr McMeekin: Minister, you're going to have to do better than that to convince the people I represent that they're not getting shafted once

again.

It's also reported in today's Spectator that your own provincial audit has concluded that the city's public health department has received a failing grade in

two thirds of its mandatory programs. It appears they can't even afford the staffing to meet current needs. This is an incredibly frustrating situation for our mayor and council. Today they're

struggling just to make ends meet and respond to the service areas your government has already offloaded. This has got to stop. Dumping more costs on to the city of Hamilton is not a realistic

option. It just can't happen without other important services being slashed throughout the entire new city.

Minister, the people I represent are sick and tired of all the game-playing. They want your government's assurance that they will not have to pay through their

property taxes for the provision of provincially mandated health care services. Will you give that assurance today?

Hon Mr Clement: No, because I'm not the mayor of Hamilton and neither is the member. The question is, is there an expectation of community

participation? In many other regions and cities in Ontario -- Kitchener-Waterloo comes to mind; Peterborough comes to mind -- there have been examples where municipalities and individuals, the

taxpayers, have willingly come to the table to further advance better health care for the citizenry in their region or city. This is no different. If this is the way Hamilton wishes to have the

community participate, it has my blessing. If they want to use another way, through philanthropic gifts or private gifts, that's fine too.

We only say that it is important for the process to continue, for the work to be done, for the community to have a stake in whatever revamping or renovation or

rebuilding is done, that the community participate as well as the province. This is no different from many other cities and regions across the province.

OKTOBERFEST

Mr Wayne Wettlaufer (Kitchener Centre): I have a question for the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation. Earlier this month, Kitchener

celebrated its 33rd successful year of Oktoberfest.

Applause .

Mr Wettlaufer: Thank you. Minister, this is North America's largest Bavarian festival. Not only is it North America's largest Bavarian

festival, but it is one of the largest festivals of any kind in North America. It is the largest cultural festival in North America. It attracted over 700,000 people this year. There are over 40

family and cultural events at Oktoberfest, including Canada's largest Thanksgiving Day parade, which is the only parade outside of the United States to be televised on an American television

network on Thanksgiving Day in the United States.

Oktoberfest is an important contributor to the economy in Kitchener-Waterloo, generating $18 million annually. More than 450 volunteers, charitable groups and

local service clubs work hard every year to make this event a success. Given the importance of Oktoberfest in attracting tourists, can you tell the House what your ministry is doing to support

Oktoberfest?

Hon Tim Hudak (Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation): I appreciate the member from Kitchener Centre's question and his ongoing strong

support for Oktoberfest as an economic and tourism generator in the Kitchener-Waterloo area. Certainly there are other members from the K-W area participating annually in that event.

That is one of the 74 events the province of Ontario supports to increase tourism, to have them come into the area, spend more dollars on hotels, restaurants

and attractions, and ideally to come back again and visit other attractions in the province. We're very pleased that this year, for the fifth year in a row, the Mike Harris government has sponsored

Oktoberfest, about $15,000. It has been named the top event in Canada on several occasions by the American Bus Association, so I'm confident of a great future ahead.

The program tries to advertise the Ontario logo at the American Thanksgiving parade, for example, with television, radio and print ads. There's no doubt that

we believe Oktoberfest is wunderbar and we also believe: Ontario: Yours to Discover.

PETITIONS

IPPERWASH PROVINCIAL PARK

Mr Gerry Phillips (Scarborough-Agincourt): To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas there remain many unanswered questions about the role of the Ontario Provincial Police in dealing with the occupation of Ipperwash Provincial Park in

September 1995 during which a native protester, Dudley George, was killed; ...

"Whereas there is evidence seeming to implicate the Premier's office in these events in the form of inter-ministerial notes and direct communications by the

local member of the provincial Parliament to the Premier's office;

"Whereas all criminal proceedings related to the events at Ipperwash have concluded and outstanding civil litigation is not a prohibitive factor;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario that a full public inquiry be held as soon as possible into the events surrounding the fatal

shooting of Dudley George in order to eliminate all misconceptions held by and about the government, the Ontario Provincial Police and the Stoney Point First Nations people."

I affix my signature.

CRUELTY TO ANIMALS

Ms Marilyn Mushinski (Scarborough Centre): I have a petition addressed to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario that reads as follows:

"Whereas the Criminal Code of Canada considers animal cruelty to be a property offence; and

"Whereas those who commit crimes against animals currently face light sentences upon conviction; and

"Whereas those who operate puppy mills should, upon conviction, face sentences that are appropriate for the torture and inhumane treatment they have inflicted

on puppies under their so-called care;

"Therefore, we, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"That the Ontario provincial government petition the federal government to move forward with amendments to the cruelty of animal provisions in the Criminal

Code as soon as possible."

COMMUNITY CARE ACCESS CENTRES

Mr Ernie Parsons (Prince Edward-Hastings): To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas the Mike Harris government promised to institute `patient-based budgeting' for health care services in the 1995 Common Sense Revolution; and

"Whereas community care access centres now face a collective shortfall of $175 million due to a funding rollback by the provincial government; and

"Whereas due to this funding rollback, CCACs have cut back on home care services affecting many sick and elderly Ontarians; and

"Whereas these cuts in services are forcing Ontarians into more expensive long-term-care facilities or back into hospital;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to immediately lift the funding freeze for home care services, so as to ensure that

community care access centres can provide the services that Ontario's working families need."

I'm pleased to add my signature to this.

HOME CARE

Mr Michael A. Brown (Algoma-Manitoulin): I have a number of petitions to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario.

"Whereas the need for home care services is rapidly growing in Ontario due to the aging of the population and hospital restructuring; and

"Whereas the prices paid by community care access centres to purchase home care services for their clients are rising due to factors beyond the control of

CCACs; and

"Whereas the funding provided by the Ontario government, through the Ministry of Health and Long-Term Care, is inadequate to meet the growing need for home

care services; and

"Whereas the funding shortfall, coupled with the implications of Bill 46, the Public Sector Accountability Act currently before the Legislature, are forcing

CCACs to make deep cuts in home care services without any policy direction from the provincial government;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"

(1) That the Legislative Assembly direct the provincial government to take control of policy-setting for home care services through rational, population-based

health planning rather than simply by underfunding the system; and

"

(2) That the Legislative Assembly direct the provincial government to provide sufficient funding to CCACs to support the home care services that are the

mandate of CCACs in the volumes needed to meet their communities' rapidly growing needs; and

"

(3) That the Legislative Assembly make it necessary for the provincial government to notify the agencies it funds of the amount of funding they will be given

by the government in a fiscal year at least three months before the commencement of the fiscal year."

I agree with this petition. I am pleased to sign it, and I'm pleased to give it to my page, Tim Armstrong from the town of Gore Bay.

EDUCATION

Mr Tony Ruprecht (Davenport): I keep getting petitions regarding the problems in education. This petition is addressed to the Legislative

Assembly of Ontario and reads as follows:

"Whereas the Ontario government wants to take an additional billion dollars out of the education system this year and every year; and

"Whereas the Ontario government has decided to hire uncertified teachers in kindergartens, libraries, for guidance, physical education, the arts, and

technology; and

"Whereas the Ontario government wishes to remove the right to negotiate working conditions; and

"Whereas the Ontario government will remove at least 10,000 teachers from classrooms across the province; and

"Whereas the Ontario government has become the sole decision-maker on class size, preparation time and the length of the school day; and

"Whereas the Ontario government proposes to take decision-making powers out of the hands of locally-elected community-minded trustees;

"We, the undersigned Ontario residents, strongly urge the government to repeal the education bill and create an accessible public consultative process for

students, parents, teachers, and school board administrators to study alternate solutions that have universal appeal and will lead to an improved educational system."

Since I agree, I am signing this document with my signature.

LONDON HEALTH SCIENCES CENTRE

Mr Pat Hoy (Chatham-Kent Essex): To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas the London Health Sciences Centre is a world-class academic health sciences centre serving people throughout southwestern Ontario; and

"Whereas the Ministry of Health has forced the London Health Sciences Centre to find $17 million in annual savings by 2005; and

"Whereas the London Health Sciences Centre has agreed to cut 18 programs in order to satisfy directions from the provincial Ministry of Health; and

"Whereas these cuts will put the health of the people of southwestern Ontario, and particularly children, at risk; and

"Whereas these cuts will diminish the London Health Sciences Centre's standing as a regional health care resource; and

"Whereas these cuts will worsen the continuing physician shortages in the region;

"Therefore,

be it resolved that we, the undersigned, petition the Ontario Legislature to demand the Mike Harris government take immediate action to ensure

these important health services are maintained so that the health and safety of people throughout southwestern Ontario are not put at risk."

I sign this petition.

Mr Steve Peters (Elgin-Middlesex-London): I have a petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas the London Health Sciences Centre is a world-class academic health sciences centre serving people throughout southwestern Ontario; and

"Whereas the Ministry of Health has forced the London Health Sciences Centre to find $17 million in annual savings by 2005; and

"Whereas the London Health Sciences Centre has agreed to cut 18 programs in order to satisfy directions from the provincial Ministry of Health; and

"Whereas these cuts will put the health of the people of southwestern Ontario, and particularly children, at risk; and

"Whereas these cuts will diminish the London Health Sciences Centre's standing as a regional health care resource; and

"Whereas these cuts will worsen the continuing physician shortages in the region;

"Therefore,

be it resolved that we, the undersigned, petition the Ontario Legislature to demand the Mike Harris government take immediate action to ensure

these important health services are maintained so that the health and safety of people throughout southwestern Ontario are not put at risk."

I'm in full agreement and will assign my signature hereto.

MEDICAL SCHOOL TUITION

Mr Pat Hoy (Chatham-Kent Essex): "To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas medical school tuition was deregulated by the Ontario government in 1998; and medical school tuition has and continues to increase in excess of 300%

such that at some universities tuition is now $14,000;

"Whereas the physicians most likely to practise in a rural area are originally from rural areas themselves; and

"Whereas unaffordable tuition disproportionately excludes medical students from rural communities;

"Be it resolved that we, the undersigned, petition the Ontario government and the universities of Ontario to ensure that medical education be made financially

accessible to all qualified students; and

"Be it further resolved that we, the undersigned, request that medical tuition be capped and re-regulated at a level accessible to all Ontarians, and that the

Ontario student assistance plan/Canada student loan program be adjusted, in order to ensure that Ontarians from all communities are able to afford a medical school education."

I agree with this petition and have signed it as well.

SALE OF SCHOOLS

Mr Tony Ruprecht (Davenport): I have a petition addressed to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario, and it reads as follows:

"Whereas the Hughes Public School at 17 Innes Ave in the city of Toronto closed down, and its premises have been declared surplus by the Toronto District

School Board (TDSB);

"Whereas the city of Toronto has issued a building permit to the Toronto District School Board permitting the reconstruction of Hughes Public School for an

entity called Beatrice House, for the purpose of a private academic school;

"Whereas Beatrice House is not a private school registered with the Ministry of Education ... ; and

"Whereas within the context of the zoning bylaw (438-86), the subject lands have been designated as R2 Z0.6 and permits a `private academic, philanthropic or

religious school'; and

"Whereas the Toronto District School Board has chosen not to lease the subject premises to a computer training company for $1.25 million annually. Instead, the

board has chosen to lease it to the Beatrice House for a fraction of the current market value;

"Whereas local taxpayers' concerns have been ignored by the Toronto District School Board;

"Whereas other locations, such as the Brother Edmund Rice School ... or the Earlscourt Public School ... which are being closed down, have been offered to

Beatrice House to no avail;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Parliament of Ontario as follows:

"That the Honourable Minister of Education investigate the leasing arrangement between the Toronto District School Board and Beatrice House inasmuch as:

"

(1) Boards are to seek fair market value when selling, leasing or otherwise disposing of schools except that the price for the property not to exceed the

value of the ministry's grant for the new pupil places when the purchaser is a coterminous board, a provincial school, or a publicly funded care and treatment facility offering programs leading to

a diploma;

"

(2) Boards are to offer the property to coterminous boards and other public agencies operating in the area in accordance with the priority order currently

specified in regulation 444/98;

"

(3) Toronto District School Board has not dealt in good faith with our neighbourhood residents;

"Therefore, we respectfully ask you to consider our plea for justice. The Toronto District School Board has ignored our concerns and due diligence. We as a

community tried everything within our power to fight the glaring and obvious wrong done to us, to no avail."

Since I agree with this petition, I'm delighted to sign it.

LONDON HEALTH SCIENCES CENTRE

Mr Steve Peters (Elgin-Middlesex-London): I have a petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas the London Health Sciences Centre is a world-class academic health sciences centre serving people throughout southwestern Ontario; and

"Whereas the Ministry of Health has forced the London Health Sciences Centre to find $17 million in annual savings by 2005; and

"Whereas the London Health Sciences Centre has agreed to cut 18 programs in order to satisfy directions from the provincial Ministry of Health; and

"Whereas these cuts will put the health of the people of southwestern Ontario, and particularly the children ... at risk; and

"Whereas these cuts will diminish the London Health Sciences Centre's standing as a regional health care resource; and

"Whereas these cuts will worsen the continuing physician shortages in the region;

"Therefore,

be it resolved that we, the undersigned, petition the Ontario Legislature to demand that the Mike Harris government take immediate action to ensure

that these important health services are maintained so that the health and safety of people throughout southwestern Ontario" in such places as Forest, Sarnia, Port Franks, London and Corunna, "are

not put at risk."

I'm in full agreement and sign my signature hereto.

HIGHWAY SAFETY

Mr Pat Hoy (Chatham-Kent Essex): To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas 13 people died during the first seven months of 1999 on Highway 401 between London and Windsor; and

"Whereas traffic levels on all sections of Highway 401 continue to increase; and

"Whereas Canada's number one trade and travel route was designed in the 1950s for fewer vehicles and lighter trucks; and

"Whereas road funding is almost completely paid through vehicle permit and driving licence fees; and

"Whereas Ontario road users pay 28 cents per litre of tax on gasoline, adding up to over $2.7 billion in provincial gas taxes and over $2.3 billion in federal

gas taxes;

"We, the undersigned members of the Canadian Automobile Association and other residents of Ontario, respectfully request the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to

immediately upgrade Highway 401 to at least a six-lane highway with fully paved shoulders and rumble strips; and

"We respectfully request that the Legislative Assembly of Ontario place firm pressure on the federal government to invest its gasoline tax revenue in road

safety improvements in Ontario."

I, too, have signed this petition.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

BROWNFIELDS STATUTE LAW

AMENDMENT ACT, 2001 /

LOI DE 2001 MODIFIANT DES LOIS

EN CE QUI CONCERNE

LES FRICHES CONTAMINÉES

Resuming the debate adjourned on October 29, 2001, on the motion for third reading of Bill 56,

An Act to encourage the revitalization of contaminated land and

to make other amendments relating to environmental matters / Projet de loi 56, Loi visant à encourager la revitalisation des terrains contaminés et apportant d'autres modifications se

rapportant à des questions environnementales.

Hon John R. Baird (Minister of Community and Social Services, minister responsible for children, minister responsible for francophone

affairs): Because I want to hear the member for Trinity-Spadina speak, I'd like to call order G56.

Mr Gilles Bisson (Timmins-James Bay): If you remember, the last time we were debating this bill, I actually just had the opportunity to get

the floor, and I am now, with pleasure, going to go through and explain what I feel are the strengths of this bill, what I think are some of the weaknesses of the bill and why I generally support

the intent of this legislation because I think it goes in the right direction, but where I think this bill, quite frankly, has got to be strengthened.

First of all, let me say straight out to the Minister of Community and Social Services, my friend Rosario Marchese will be coming back to speak, so you will

have an opportunity this afternoon. But I'm the first act, so you have to put up with it, all right?

Mr Michael Prue (Beaches-East York): And I'm the second act.

Mr Bisson: Michael is the second act and Rosie will be the third.

Hon Mr Baird: The teaser.

Mr Bisson: There you go. That's just the way we set it up.

Anyway, I just want to say to the government members across the way that I generally support what the government is doing in this legislation. I, along with

the other New Democrats and, I would imagine, most members of this House, have had experiences where there have been brownfields in the middle of our communities that have gone undeveloped for a

number of years because of the waste, contaminated soils by way of all kinds of activities, everything from mining to lumber to steel mills to petrochemical plants, you name it. There are those

types of environmental disasters all over.

How we got into that situation is that in the bad old days, when there was a real zeal to build plants, there was not the type of environmental legislation we

have now to make sure we protect our lands, to prevent them from being contaminated in the future. For example, where I come from -- I'll just give you one story -- the Kamiskotia Mine, developed

in the 1940s, was developed as a copper mine out at Kamiskotia Lake to assist the Canadian government in its war efforts, to supply the much-needed copper that we needed at the time to support the

Allies and our own armed forces when it came to copper production. That mine was brought on line so fast that a whole bunch of environmental issues that should have been dealt with when the mine

was built weren't. Tailings dams were not constructed. The mine effluent from the mill process was discharged directly out into the environment. We now have, some 60 years later, a huge

environmental disaster out at Kamiskotia Lake. In fact, my own cottage, the family cottage we have, is but a stone's throw from what I would say is probably one of the largest mining disasters in

Ontario when it comes to contamination.

I've worked very hard, along with others -- councillor Rick Bisson, former mayor Vic Power and current mayor Jamie Lim -- in order to bring much-needed money

from the provincial government so we're able to do the remedial work we need to bring that site back to a situation where it's a lot greener and not as polluted as we see it now. I'm happy to say

that we've been very successful in getting money from the provincial government, first from the former Minister of Northern Development and Mines, Tim Hudak, and now from the current Minister of

Northern Development and Mines, Dan Newman. I've been successful, along with others, in being able to attract almost $10 million this year alone to do remedial work on that site. I give the

government kudos on that.

I've always said it is my job as a member of this Legislature and as an advocate for my community that if the government does something wrong, I'm going to be

there and I'll be pushing you to do what I think is right, but if you've done something right it's my responsibility to say you've done it. So I give full credit to Dan Newman and to Tim Hudak, the

former Minister of Northern Development and Mines, for first of all understanding the issue, listening to what I had to say, and going through the process of meeting people like Rick Bisson, the

community residents and the former mayor and the current mayor of the city of Timmins to get that much-needed money.

But now let's get specific to this bill. We have other environmental disasters in the community. One of the other ones we have is another mining project. This

case is the old MacIntyre mine. I'll show you how this relates directly to the brownfields bill we have right now. At one point years ago, the MacIntyre mine was producing gold in the Schumacher

area. The tailings dam constructed way back when -- I believe it dates back to the 1930s -- eventually was filled with water and they made a sort of reclamation lake in the area that eventually

became a park. If people have driven to the city of Timmins onwards from the 1940s and 1950s, there was a really beautiful area that was called the Pearl Lake Park, situated directly between the

city of Timmins and the town of Schumacher. What you had there was a park in the centre of the city of Timmins, a wonderful area that people used for enjoyment, for going out for a picnic with

their families. If you wanted to go out and play a game of baseball or you just generally wanted to go with the children for a day in the park, it was a wonderful park. The MacIntyre mine and the

Lions Club used to maintain part of it and the city of Timmins maintained the other part.

What happened was that a company known as ERG Resources eventually came along, and that particular company said, "We want to reclaim the tailings under that

park." It had been reclaimed as a park; they had managed to backfill it again and basically have grass and baseball diamonds and trees and such. This particular company said, "We want to reclaim

the tailings. We believe we can make lots of money and create many jobs in the city of Timmins." The time that originally came up was in the 1980s, actually under the former Liberal government; Mr

Bradley was the Minister of the Environment at the time.

The government of the day, both the municipal and provincial governments, allowed that project to go ahead without the necessary bonds to secure that, if that

company went bankrupt, there would be sufficient money there to reclaim the environmental damage they would cause by re-mining the tailings. Well, history has shown -- that company came cap in hand

to both the municipal and the provincial government and said, "We need these jobs. They're important to the community. Trust us, we'll be there. We're going to be here for a long time. We're making

a substantial investment in the city of Timmins. We're not going to leave you stuck," they said. "We're going to make sur