VOL. 3 THIRD SESSION OF THE THIRTY-NINTH GEI:-TE~, ASSF..MBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND PRELIMINl-_P,Y UNEDITED TPANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSF.~~DY FOR TPE PERIOD: 3:00p.m. - 6:00 p.m. ':':'!iUPSDAY, ~1AY 10, 1984 "TO. 35

Hay 10, 1984 The House met at 3:00 p.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair MR. SPEAKER (Russell) Ta pe No. 1479 Order, please! MR. ~TA.R..~N: ORAL QUESTIONS Mr. Speaker. MJ - 1 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Torngat Mountains. MF.. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Government House Leader (Mr. Uarshall). I would like to ask the han. minister if this administration is considering or even ente!taining the idea of using a threat of separatism in any o~ its ongoing disputes with the federal government ·or anyone else? The reason I ask this question, Mr.

Speaker, is because only a few days ago the Premier said that he believed that the recent Supreme r.ourt decision on the Water Rights Reversion Act would fan the flames of separatism. So I am wondering if the House Leader and th~governrn~nt WOUld be using the threat of Se?aratism in any o~ its ongoing disputes with the federal government or any other group? ~ffi. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: In my judgement that question does not warrant an answer;therefore,it will not be given an answer. MR. WARP-EN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Torngat Hountains. MR.

WARREN: Mr. Speaker, my second auestion to the minister is that I understand on a local radio station in the Province a couple of days ago there 1>~ere some eighty-eight 3805

May 10, 1984 Tape t-!o. 14 79 ~..J - 2 ~.R. NAP.RE1'1 : calls received on the question if you favoured separatism or not . 0~ tho se eightv ­ eight calls,forty -one of the callers said that thev did favour separatism 1 and that roughly works out to forty ­ eight per cent. I would like to ask the minister what is his governments reaction to such an opinion 90ll as this? MR . SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. the President of the Council. MR. ~JI..RSHJI..LL: Mr.

S~eaker, I would like personally to be able to respond to a q~estion such as that,but as a member of the government quite frankly I feel it just does not warrant reply . In effect having said I will not reply still I ~-1ill say that >-Jhat it shows is the acute sense of aggrieveme nt by the peoole of thi s Province and their 380 6

May 10, 1984 Tape 1480 PK - 1 MR. MARSHALL: dissatisfaction with the way in which we are treated within Confederation. But this government is committed to,and continues to be committed to getting the rights of the people of this Province within Confederation. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: supplementary for the minister. The hon. member for Mr.

Speaker, another In view of the fact that statements have been made by members of the backbenches and ministers concerning the High Courts in our country such as the Supreme Court of Canada, could the minister now say that he will ensure the people of the Province that members of the government that he is a part of will not be taking such an attitude towards such High Courts as the Supreme Court of Canada and let us fight for Confederation from Coast to Coast? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, again I do not know why the hon. gentleman is persuing this line of questioning.

It was no less a personage than the present Chief Justice of Canada whom I heard on the radio indicate the fact that he thought in effect that certain criticism of a court decision was appropriate from time to time once it was responsible. I certainly have not heard any criticisms that have come from this side of the House or anywhere in Newfounland which have not been responsible criticisms. I think the learned judges of the courts themselves learned judges of the courts themselves would realize that would realize that it is not open to wrap themselves in 3807

May 10, 1984 Tape 1480 PK - 2 MR. MARSHALL: the cloak of infallibility in any way, and that they are human and what have you. F~d once a criticism is responsible and responsive that is fine; it is acceptable to the -~court, it is acceptable in our democractic situation. I do not know what kind of picture the han. gentleman is trying to paint, but I refuse to get between the brackets of the frame with the han. gentleman. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The han. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I have a new question for the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins).

I understand that a gas station owner/ operator in Corner Brook has received some good news from the Minister of Finance concerning gasoline sales tax directly to the government instead of to the wholesaler. Could the minister advise the House now if this same concern or the same condition will be passed along to all gas station owners/operators within the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, we had an arrangement in regard to gasoline tax in effect in the Province which is the usual arrangement in all jurisdictions in Canada.

And it was a very effective way of collecting the tax, a very convenient way,both from the point of view of the tax gatherer and also 1 as far as one kne~ and 3808

May 10, 1984 Tape No. 1481 SD - 1 DR. COLLINS: as far as we still know,to the vast majority of gasoline vendors 1-1hich are usually gasoline stations and so on. Now this qentleman objected to do that and he made his point. Early on I told him in writing that if he wished to do it otherwise he was quite atliberty to do so. And, of course, I obviously could not respond to a single person that way and not respond to other people, so, I mean, the same arrangement would apply to any gasoline vendor 1obviously. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker. ML~. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WAR.'IU:N: Mr.

Speaker, my supplementary to the minister: is why would it be necessary for the individual owner to have a secured bond of $30,000 in order to carry out the procedure in the wav that he is presently doing it? And if so, why are not other retail business outlets in ~he Province required to place a similar bond? MR. SPEAKER: DR. COLLINS: The hon. Minister of Finance. Mr. Speaker, we have a bonding arrangement in regard to retail sales tax in place, we have had it in place for some considerable time 1and it does apply to quite a range of vendors.

If the hon. member is wondering, you know, what is the guideline or what is the policy for applying the bonding arrangement, I might just very briefly say that, generally speaking 1 where a new vendor gets a vendor's licence, and obviously because he is new · he is an unknown quantity to us, we do not know with what diligence he will remit the tax he collects from the people. I think you have to remember it is not his money, it is the peoples' money, the taxpayers' money and he is supposed to send it on, you know, according to regulations.

Now,if he js ~ new vendor,we do not know how diligently, accurately and even, shall we say honestly,he will do that. So our general 3809

May 10, 1984 Tape No. 1481 SD - 2 DR. COLLINS: approach is for new vendors to be bonded. And that bonding will continue for a period of time until we estimate that there is no need to have 3810

May 10, 1984 Tape No. 1482 NM - 1 DR. COLLINS: that safeguard in place, a safeguard in terms of the people's money. Now the hon. member mentioned $30,000. The degree of bonding really relates to the amounts of retail business the vendor carries out to which retail sales tax is applied. In other words, and perhaps a silly example, if a person is just selling $10 worth of goods a month we obviously will require him to be bonded to a very low degree, because he obviously could not be remiss in submitting very much tax in that case.

But if he has obviously got, say, $10,000 worth of business a month, he could in one month, if he did not submit the tax promptly, be remiss for a considerable amount of money, so we would obviously want him to be bonded to a greater extent. So it really depends on the level of business. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: A supplementary, if I might, to the minister. He said in the course of his answer to my friend, the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren), that a new vendor will be required to get a bond.

I think I under­ stood the minister correctly, and that, if I understand, Mr. Speaker, is consistent with the policy that is in place in dealing with RST collectors and it may very well be · a wise one, given some of the experiences the Finance Department has had over the years, in collecting these taxes. What I want to ask him is this, Sir; whether a ~new vendor, in his terminology, includes a gasoline dealer who has been in business for a substantial period of time amounting to years, 3 81 'l

Hay 10, 1984 Tape No. 1482 NM - 2 MR . ROBERTS: and has presumably, in the case of many of these people, been collecting RST as well. The only tax on gasoline is the qasoline tax, which is high enough, but all of these dealers sell RST taxable items and of course collect the RST and remit it . MR . CARTER : Are you asking (inaudible) . MR . ROBERTS: I would not ask the hon. gentleman; he has no right to answer questions since he was thrown out of the Cabinet twelve years ago. What I am asking the minister is whether a dealer in that position, who is, of course, known to the department and has, presumably, a 3812

May 10,1984 Tape No. 1483 ah-1 MR. ROBERTS: favourable record is considered a new vendor and thus is required to seek the bond of which my hon. friend asked? MR.SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. Minister of Finance. DR.COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, when I mentioned new vendor I meant that as an example; that is not the only circums-tance in, which we will require bonding. In certain activities or certain types of business,where we know from experience that there often is a difficulty with the remission of retail sales tax,we will often require bonding,in that area of business activity,much more stingently.

I am not saying that we will require bonding of 100 per cent of people engaged in that type of business,but we will certainly have a higher threshold for requiring bonding in that area of business. MR.ROBERTS: Anybody with a bad track record. DR. COLLINS: Y -:s, a bad record WJuld be another. instance,but there are certain types of businesses where we know from experience that the remission of retail sales tax is not up to the expected levels and for people engaged in that type of business would be much more likely to require bonding than in other types of businesses. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: A supplementary to the Minister of Finance,or maybe a new question. Yesterday the minister made a statement concerning the Labrador/ Quebec border as it pertains to the sale of cigarettes 3813

May 10,1984 Tape No . 1483 ah-2 MR .WARREN : and gasoline . Has the minister any indication that the retail outlet owners in those areas are not following the regulations as the minister pr~ some weeks ago as pertaining to purchasing cigarettes and reselling the cigarettes and so on? The reason I ask the minister this is because yesterday he came up with a~ost a threatening statement to those owners, either you do this or you are going to be refused sort of thing. 381 4

~1ay 10, 1984 HR. SPE1\JCER (Russell) DR. COLLINS: Tape No. 1484 MJ - 1 The hon. the Minister of Finance. Mr. Speaker, if the hon. member interpreted my statement as threatening that is unfortunate because it certainly was not meant to be threatening. It was really just to lay out the situation. I do not think we have any particular evidence that the arrangement that was put in place subsequent to the budget is being significantly abused in any way.

I might say that the reason why the question arose is that we have a certain mechanism in olace in regard to that relief from retail sales tax that we are g~ving to Labrador West and Labrador South, a particular mechanism that was questioned by sare people in the areas up there as to T...tlether that particular mechanism is a necessary mechanism, since it is a refund mechanism. So that point carne to the attention of a number of the media and I was asked why that mechanism was necessary.

Incidentally, WP also replied to the vendors in Labrador West who brought up that point, we replied in writing to them directly 1 but also it was brought up by members of the media and in explaining the reason for having that particular mechanism in place I did also comment that it is to the advantage of the vendors up there that the system work well and that it work with a minim~~ of abuse because,obviously 1 if the system is subject to abuse and is not working 1.,rell we will have to review and see if we can put another mechanism in place or,indeed,we will have to review the whole policy.

That was the only statement I made. MR. WA!L~N: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) Mountains. MR. WARREN: The hon. the member for Torngat I thank the minister very much. I have a new question for the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) in place of the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Horgan). Yesterday in the 3815

Hay 10, 1984 Tape 1\fo. 1484 1-'.J - 2 MR . !-IARREN : House I asked the minister concerning comoens~tio~ for fishermen who have lost do lla rs in the lobster fisherv season because of the ice conditions along the Northeast Coast. Since the federal Minister of Employment and Immigrat ion {Mr. Roberts) has announced within the past ten minutes that there will be a voluntary payment to a11 fishermen who are affected, 3816

May 10, 1094, Tape 1485, Page l -- apb MR. WARREN: will the minister now go on record as saying that if this voluntary payment is not sufficient to meet the needs of those fishermen, will . this government assess it and take up the slack? MR. SPEAKER(Russell) : The han. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, the han. gentleman means well when he asks his questions, but they are tinged with such political things. The announcment made by the han. minister results in large part from the representations made by the han. the member for Twillingate (Hrs. Reid) to the federal government. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hea, hear! MR. MARSHALL: It was the han. member who first of all brought this situation to the attention of Mr. De Bane and Mr. Robarts, I believe. Is it Mr. Robarts? MR. SIMMS: Roberts. MR. MARSHALL: Roberts. This Mr. Roberts, Employment and Immigration, or whatever it is. But, Mr. Speaker, the han. gentleman is just playing politics.

It is a responsibility of the federal government and the federal government appeared to be, up to a little while ago, a little bit quiescent, they were not aware of the fact that ice was ringing the Northeast coast of this Province, that it was difficult for fishermen to prosecute their livelihood, that there was a hardship being visited on the people of the Northeast coast. They were abysmally unaware of it until, as I say, the member for Twillingate brought it to their attention. We are happy that they have responded in the manner they have.

We will be assessing the nature of the response, and assessing it as to whether that response is comparable to the type of response they would have in kindred industries in other parts of Canada, and we will be advising accordingly. 3817

May 10, 1984, Tape 1485, Page 2 -- apb MR. MARSHALL: But in the meantime, we can say we are glad that we have been able to move the federal government through the respresentations made by a very conscientious member for one of the districts in that area. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER(Russell): The han. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary to the minister. He still has not answered my question. I should also advise the minister that it was not Mr.

De Bane, the Minister of Fisheries ,to whom the telegram was sent who brought the regulation in, it was the Minister of Employment and Immigration, Mr. John Roberts, who, r think is running for the leadership of the Liberal Party of Canada, and r may even support him. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. the member for Torngat Mountains is proceeding to make a speech. He should ask his question. MR. WARREN: Yes, Mr.

Speaker. r should like to go back and ask a supplementary question to the minister and ask the minister,again,if the volunta~y payment is not sufficient to meet the needs of those fishermen who lost their income during the past four weeks, can the minister assure those fishermen that this government will assist them wherever possible~ I just want a very simple yes or no. 3818

May 10, 1984 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : the Council. Tape 1486 PK - 1 The hon. President of MR. MARSHALL: At this stage this is a very hypothetical question that the hon. gentleman poses - if something happens will the government do something? All I can is that the Government of this Province has always been responsive to the needs of the people in this Province. MR. OTTENHEIMER: MR. MARSHALL: Do not be nasty now. The Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) warns me not to be nasty, so I will try not to be, Mr. Speaker. But the hon. gentleman is aware that we respond to the needs where ·wecan.

He is also aware of the fact that we have limited resources in this Province; he is also aware of the fact that this is a responsibility of the federal government.

He is also aware of the fact that in the case of the fishery itself we have a situation where the federal government while they are not responsible for the ice, although .they would put us on ice if they could 7 the fact of the matter is that this is the same government that is responsiblefor depriving the fishermen of this Province of extra income by reason of the fact that they have given off incremental Northern cod stock to their friends in the Province of Quebec this year as well as to Nova Scotia and New Brunswick. Sb he is aware of all these facts. We are aware of all of the facts.

We are doing what we can for the fishermen. We will continue to do what we can for the fishermen and we are glad that the federal governmemt has responded 1 as I say 1to the representations made by the member for Twillingate (Mrs. Reid) on behalf of her constituents. SOME HON. ME~ffiERS: Hear, hear! 3819

May 10, 1984 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Mount Scio. MR. BARRY: Tape 1486 PK - 2 The hon. member for Mr. Speaker, I would like to address a question to the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer). I understand that the Director of The Emergepcy Measures Organization has been involved in airlifting supplies to the longliners that are caught in the ice up on the Northeast Coast. I believe there are some fifty-five crew mernbers 1 approximately 1 on the various longliners.

I have had calls from a number of members of the crew who have come ashore and in some cases are having difficulty getting back to their boats because of the changing winds and the unsafe ice conditions between the shore and their vessels. I am wondering if the minister is staying in touch with the situation, particularly with respect to supplies of food and water?

Normally water would be available on the ice itself but for some reason it has been indicated that the water that accumulates on the ice is unusually salty compared to other years and my information is that in some cases supplies of water are getting fairly low on the longliners. Secondly, w~th respect to supplies of food 1 there have been arrangements made not for the delivery of any food supplied by government or any other agency,but for crew members to purchase their own food and to have that food carried out by themselves by helicopter.

I understand that in certain cases food supplies intended for a particular vessel or a group of vessels~ MR. ANDREWS: MR. BARRY: Question: Where is the question? Does the Minister of Environment (Mr. Andrews) have a problem? 3820

May 10, 1984 Tape No. 1487 SD - l MR. ANDREWS: What about a question? MR. BARRY: When he starts doing something we will have a question or two to put to that minister as well. But I would like to ask the minister whether he is staying on top of the situation with respect to the need on these various vessels for food? As I understand it, in some casea food supplies are running low as well- MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : ~R. OTTENHEIMER: The han. Minister of Justice. Mr.

Speaker, in reply to the hon. gentleman's question, certainly we are monitoring the situation with respect to these boats and with respect to the situation regarding food and water. I think that probably all I can say is we are monitoring it- So, no doubt, the hon. gentleman is aware, of course, the activation of EMO really does have to be ,obviously, an emergency. Obviously, that cannot be taken too far, you know, in extremi~, but it does obviously have to be an emergency, , it cannot 'sort of be an kind of shuttle service. But certainly 1through the.

Emergency Measures office, the situation is being monitored and is being kept on top of in terms of information and what needs might develop. M_~. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Mount Scio. MR. BARRY: I would like a question to the Minister responsible for Energy tr-ir. Marshall) . I would like to ask that minister the same question that ~·Tas asked last day which the minister did not reply to. In what year, at what point in time, will the Province have to commence construction of new generation facilities in order to meet the future hydro needs of the Province? MR. SPEAKER: MR ..

MARSHALL: 3821 The han. President of the Council. Mr. Speaker, we will have to

May 10, 1984 Tape No. 1487 SD - 2 MR . MARSHALL: consider that within a couple of years. M..~ . B.I'.RRY: Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell1 : The hon. member for l1ount Scio. MR . BARRY: The minister is saying we will have to consider that . Is the mintster saying that within two years the present surplus of energy will have been depleted and that at that point in ti~e we will need additional energy, or is he saying that construction ~.,rill have to commence in two years? 38 22

May 10,1984 Tape No. 1488 ah-1 MR.SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. President of the Council. MR.MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, as I said, we will have to take that decision within approximately two years.

And as the han. gentleman is aware,the hydro sites available on the Island, there are very few of them left, if any at all are feasible, And unless we get some control of our resources,and in particular get the wherewithal to be able to develop the resources that are available on the mainland part of the Province for the benefit of the entire Province,then we are going to be forced to such alternatives as, you know, oil for the purpose of the generation of electricity. MR.BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR.SPEAKER (Russell): The han. member for Mount Scio. MR.

BARRY: Would the minister confirm that we have a full two years before a decision nust be taken to commence construction of the plants or is it something less than that? MR.SPEAKER: The han. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: We have approximately two years, Mr. Speaker, to make that decision. MR. SIMMS: MR.WARREN: MR. SPEAKER: Mountains. A good answer. Mr. Speaker. The han. member for Torngat MR.WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Finance (Dr.Collins) in place of the Minister of Health (Mr.House) 1 who I understand is sick.

Could the Minister of Finance advise if the government has found out the cause of the Salmonella poisoning 3823

May 10,1984 Tape No. 1488 ah-2 MR.WARREN: that occured around the Gander area sometime ago? Has the cause of the Salmonella poisonina been confirmed to date? MR. SIMMS: MR.WARREN: MR.SPEAKER (Russell ): DR.COLLINS: It is not just Gander. Do not be nasty now. The hon. Minister of Finance. Mr. Speaker, I will have to take that question under advisement and I will get as much information as is available at the earliest possible moment. MR. SPEAKER: The hon.member for Torngat Mountains. MR.WARREN: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to throw out three other supplementaries to the minister if he is going to take that one under advisement because they have some connection with Salmonella poisoning. Could the minister advise how many people were affected and if the restrictions that had been place on the hospitals in Central Newfoundland have been lifted?And the final supplementary, Mr. Speaker, is I understand there is a restriction now placed on the hospital in Baie Verte as it pertains to an outbreak of a flu epidemic.

Could the minister flnd out also if this flu epidemic is very serious and what kind of restrictions have been ,placed on the Baie Verte hospital or hospitals in the surrounding area? MR.BARRY: Mr. Speaker. 3824

May 10, 1984 Tape No. 1489" . NM - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The han. member for Mount Scio. MR. BARRY: I would like to ask the minister responsible - the Minister of Justice (Mr.

Ottenheimer) I guess would be the appropriate person in the absence of the Premier - whether the provincial government has been monitoring-! understand there are representatives present at the discussions-but whether they have been monitoring closely the possibility of trade offs in the discussions that the federal government is hav±ng with France, the possibility of trade offs with respect to the Continental Shelf which might be recognized for France around St. Pierre and Miquelon and the Continental Shelf and fishing rights and so forth which might be recognized around Georges Bank? MR. SPEAKER: MR.

OTTENHEIMER: The han. Minister of Justice. Well, Mr. Speaker, yes, the Province is monitoring very closely negotiations between Canada and France with respect to the waters and the Continental Shelf off St. Pierre. But this is a matter which has been going on obviously for a number of years now and apparently is so far without resolution.

The Province is of the very firm opinion that the fishery rights, and indeed rights with respect to other offshore resources of the people of Newfoundland must be protected, and that it would be quite improper, quite unjust and inequitable for the federal government to act in such a way as to minimize or diminish or prejudice fishing and other resource rights of Newfoundlanders vis-~-vis the citizens of France who reside at St. Pierre and Micquelon. 3825

May 10, 1984 HR. SPEAKER (Russell) Scio. MR. BARRY: Tape No. 1490 MJ - l The han. the member for Mount Can the minister indicate whether there are any real causes ·:for concern in ter~s of how the negotiations have proceeded so far that there might be additional rights given France around St. Pierre et Miquelon in order to improve Canada's claim against the US and Georges Bank? ' MR. S J=>F. .'~-K F.3. : HR. OTTENHEIMER: The hon. the Minister of Justice. Mr.

Speaker, I am not aware that the federal government has made any decision to act in a way or to negotiate in a manner or to envision an agreement which would be prejudicial to the rights of Newfoundland and residents of Newfoundland. I am not aware of that.

Until we learn anything to the contrary, we have to and do insist upon, ~nd indeed ~ave a basic trust and confidence that the rights of Canadian citizens resident in Newfoundland, Newfoundland Canadians, will be protected strongly and vigorously and consistently by the federal government and will not be traded off for any other advantages which might accrue to other Canadians. So to be frank and honest, no.

To my knowledge the Government of Canada has not and is not planning to trade off any legitimate interests of Newfoundland with respect to the fisher y or other resources,and we certainly expect them and have a right to require them to be as protective and firm with respect to those riohts as with respect to other rights. As I said,any kind of a trade off there would really be inappropriate and I would think unacceptable,but,to be fair and honest,I am not aware that the federal government is acting in a manner which is not fully cognizant of and protective of the legitimate rights of Newfoundland.

Obviously, as the han. gentleman knows, the Province has certain information on these matters, but the 3826

May 10, 1~84 •rape 1491 EC - l MR. OTTENHEIMER: the actual strategy planning and the actual negotiations between Canada and France are bilateral and we expect our interests to be fully protected. MR. SPEAK~R (Russell): Order, please! The time for Question Period has expired. NOTICES OF MOTION MR. DINN: M.~. SPEAKER: and Manpower. MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker. The hon. the Minister of Labour Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled 1 "An Act To Amend The Shop Closing Act." SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN DR. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, the hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts) asked me some questions a short time ago with regard to negotiations or discussions which had taken place between representa­ tives of the dental profession and the Department of Health. I have received some information on that. It is really not something in a form that is useful to table, I suppose, but I could just comment on it.

First of all, I might just say that the general response of the department was that they are going to monitor this situation, that is, the increase in the fee for non-preventative procedures carried out in 3827

May 10 , 19B4 Tape 1491 EC - 2 DR. COLLINS : dentists' offices . They are are going to monLtor the thing and keep a close eye on it. They expressed their understanding of the concerns of the dentists because they are the ones obviously affected by this measure . They understand their concerns. And they undertook to meet with the dentists at any appropriate time in the future . Now , as to the points the dentists actually brought up, they suggested that this $5 fee per item woula be a deterrent and, you know, I think that that LS a point to be made but it ~s not a point that they proved in any way .

It really depends on the patient or, I suppose, the pat1ent's parents real ly, whether they regard Lt as a deterre nt or not, but they suggested l.t might be a deterrent . They also suggested that the children J.n Newfoundland have a lesser degree of dental health than in other parts of the country. My understanding is t.hat they really did not supply any factual evidence to support that. This is not to say that one does not believe them, but just to say that , you know, that was their suggestion, 382 8

May 10, 1984 Tape No. 1492 SD - 1 DR. COLLINS: but it was not factually supported,at least at the present time. They also brought up the point that the parents may begin to take a lesser view of dental health because of this and they may tend to disregard the need for dental health because of this. But I do not know if that was generally acceptable to the Department of Health, you know, that just seemed to be very subjective judgment. And in any case,if it were so it sounds as though there is a need for dental education as opposed to increased dental fees.

The dentist did suggest that many dentists write off the $2 fee but they would be loath to write off a $5 fee. Well 1 that may or may not be the case, I suppose. They also suggested the loss of income of dentists relying on the children's dental scheme for a considerable part of their practice. However, the department does have a programme whereby they subsidize dental practices where those are needed in isolated areas. I do not know if that is a big concern , and in any case the department did take it into consideration in recommending this course of action to government for implementation in the budget.

And the final point they brought up is that the scheme already had been trimmed, they suggested, by other measures and should not be trimmed any more. But 1 on the other hand, I think han. members will recall that this government actually expanded the programme as well as made some changes in recent years that might be called trimming. We also expanded our programme in that it extended up to the age, I think, of thirteen where previously it only extended up to the age of twelve. So those are the concerns that were brought up by the dentists. MR.

ROBERTS : It was extended to age thirteen some eight or ten years ago. 3829

May 10, 1984 Tape No. 1492 SD - 2 DR. COLLINS: No, it was not increased in a year. It went up a year or a couple of years ago. MR. ROBERTS: Longer than that. DR. COLLINS: No, no, no more recent than that, much more recently than that. Anyway, those were the concerns and the Department of Health will be monitoring the situation and they will take into consideration fully the suggestions put forward by the dentists. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER (Russell)_: Motion 1 1 which is the debate on the budget. The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) finished his comments on the budget debate last day.

The Chair is prepared to recognize another speaker unless the House is ready for the question. MRS. REID: Hr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: SOHE HON. HE1.ffiERS: MRS. REID: The hon. member for Twillingate. Hear, hear. Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure today to take a few moments of the time of this House to speak in this budget debate. I must state, Hr. Speaker, that I am quite pleased with this budget, given the economic conditions we are experiencing worldwide from the recession. Mr. Speaker, I do not think I need tell anyone that I come from the great .historic district of Twillingate. SOHE HON.

MEHBERS: Hear, hear. MR. l.VARREN: And lots of ice. HRS. REID: Yes 1 there is lots of ice. The main industry in the district is the fishery and,therefore, Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased with the emphasis that this government places on the fishery. I am also pleased today, Hr. Speaker, that the federal government has acted upon a request of mine not to extend the 3830

Hay 10, 1984 Tape No. 149.2 SD - 3 HRS. REID: UIC benefits as I requested 1 however, but to make voluntary payments to fishermen. HR. SIHHS: Hear, hear. MRS. REID: Mr. Speaker, I do not 3831

May 10, 1984, Tape 1493, Page 1 -- apb MRS.REID: know what the voluntary payments may be, but I would hope that whatever comes forth from the federal government will be of benefit to the fishermen. I do not understand why they would not extend the UIC benefits another week or two; however, we will wait and see what happens. I am more than pleased with that, Mr. Speaker, because I am pretty well sure that I was the one who made the request. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Right on! Hear, hear! MR. SIMMS: it. MRS. REID: M::mday rrorning. You copied it.

You copied I copied the telegram on on M:Jnday rrorning of this week I sent the telegram to the han. minister, Mr. De Bane, and =pied it to the han. Mr. Baker, our federal member, and I also copied it to Mr. Tulk, the member for Fogo. So on Monday night Mr. Baker was on television talking about the UIC benefits to fishermen, but he did not know the ice was in on the Northeast coast, Mr. Speaker, until I told him. In Twillingate district we have three large fish plants and two feeder plants.

I am pleased and two of the fish plants and one of the feeder plants will be corning under the new super company this year, Fishery Products International. We are looking forward to having those plants at Twillingate and Bridge­ port working to their full capacity this year, and the feeder plant at Cottlesville to continue taking fish for the plant at Twillingate. Mr. Speaker, thanks to the assistance from this government the plants at Herring cove and Whales Gulch will continue to operate as usual. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I am saying that we are looking forward to a good season, with all the plants operating to their full capacity; however, we all 3832

May 10., 1984, Tape 1493, Page 2 -- apb MRS. REID : realize that if the fish do not come into those plant s they cannot opera~e to their full capacity . However, our Minister of Fisheries . (Mr. Morgan) and this government a r e certainly working strenuously toward this end . And, Mr . Speaker , speaki ng abou t fish coming into the plants brings to mind the announcement that was made a couple of weeks back by the federal government perta .ining to the increase of 10 , 000 metric tonnes of cap l in f or Russia.

I think this means a total of 20,000 metric tonne s of caplin to be given to Russia this year and for what? For what, Mr . Speaker? It is in exch ange for $~2 mil l ion worth of processed f i sh from Canada - processed fish from Canada , another example of our resources bei ng give n away from the federal government . An.d not only that , Mr . Speaker, but capl i n is the food fish for other spec ies of fi s h in our waters. In addition to that, the federal government wants 3833

May 10 , 1984 Tape 149 4 PK - 1 MRS. REID: to delay the opening of our salmon fishery. I wonder, Mr. Speaker, do they give any consideration to the fishermen when these decisions are being made? MR. WARREN: None whatsoever. MR. REID: Mr. Speaker, as I stated earlier,Twillingate district is mainly a fishing district. All those decisions, the giving away of our fish to other countries for little return, delaying the opening of the fishing season or the salmon season, all have a detrimental effect on our fishermen.

Not only does it have a detrimental effect on our fishermen directly,but indirectly on the business community. If there is a poor fisher y , Mr. Speaker, then needless to say business suffers and layoffs result. The fishery, Mr. Speaker, is the mainstay of our whole economy and I believe that it is dangerous to be tampering with the livelihood of 0ur people. SOME BON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. REID: To delay the season for certain species of fish, to be giving away other species is serious business and, as I stated 1 is detrimental to the livelihood of our fishermen. However, Mr.

Speaker, wi t_ l this new company now in place 1 we look forward to a good fishing season this year with as few problems as possible. I am not saying that there will not be any problems, but we hope that they will be few. Mr. Speaker, in my district I have to say that tourism is becoming the second biggest industry. This government have taken some very positive steps towards the promotion of tourism in this Province. Incentive grants are being made available to different groups throughout the Province enticing them to become involved in some tourist promotion, there~y, Mr.

Speaker, enhancing the tourist industry throughout 3834

May 10, 1984 Tape 1494 PK - 2 MRS. REID: the Province. As a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, the Fish,Fun and Folk Festival- SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MRS. REID: - which is held in Twillingate district annually now on th~ last weekend in July,came about through one of those incentive grants. The Rural Development Association, along with the women's Institutes in the district 1 took advantage of I believe it was the first grant that was offered to hold its first Fish, Fun and Folk Festival, a huge success, I might add. And now, Mr. Speaker, this festival is in its fourth year. MR.

SIMMS: Tell us about your involvement. SOME HON. MEMBERf: MRS. REID: Now,do not be modest. - OJ Right on! The festival is also recognized right across Canada and the United States. As a matter of fact , Mr. Speaker, people make reservations from one year to the next to attend this event. And all this, Mr. Speaker, results from the efforts and assistance ,financially and morally,from the Department of Development, Tourism Branch. Now I spoke only of one event,the Fish,Fun and Folk Festival. However, Mr.

Speaker, there are many of those events throughout the Province during the Surnrnertirne,as we all know,encouraging the tourist industry and encouraging tourists _to visit our Province. There are other events in my district, the Fish,Fun and Folk Festival is just one~ H~er, _ there are various types of activities taking place throughout the Summer attracting more and more tourists to the area. Same 3835

May 10, 1984 Tape 1495 NM- 1 MRS. REID: 13,000 tourists visited the museum at Twillingate,for instance,last Summer, and every tourist brought $1, Mr. Speaker. DR. COLLINS: How many? MRS. REID: At least 13,000 went through the Twillingate Museum, and "for a small ,rural area of Newfoundland, Mr. Speaker, I think that that is excellent. MR. CARTER: You will soon get a grant from the Department of Culture, Recreation and Youth. MRS. REID: Given also the fact that we are about an hour's drive from the Trans-Canada,but then that may be to our advantage too.

Many tourists like to get off the Trans-Canada and into the rural areas of the Province. Now, Mr. Speaker, I mentioned the involvement of the Rural Development Association in the tourist industry and this brings to me another great concern of mine, that of the Rural Development Agreement. Mr. Speaker, it has been more than a year now since the rural development associations in this Province have had an agreement. Fifty­ one rural development associations in this Province and no agreement in place for over a year. This means, Mr.

Speaker, that those very hard working and concerned group of volunteer people have been brought to a'standstill in planning any development projects for their areas. They have been forced, Mr. Speaker, into dealing with Canada Works. I told the co-ordinator down in my district not so very long ago that it is no problem for him to go to work now with Manpower after handling some nineteen Canada Works projects. But, Mr. Speaker, what can they do? They do not know if they are going to have another agreement. Therefore, they cannot plan so they take what comes. 3836

May 10, 1984 Tape 141)5 NM - 2 MRS. REID: Mr. Speaker, I believe tnat development associations are the most important organizations in this Province. MR. TOBIN: Hear, hear! MRS. REID: They are made up of a very concerned group of grass root individuals who are dedicated to serving the communities they represent to the best of their ability. And for ove·r a year now they have not had a contract. This government, Mr. Speaker, presented its proposal to the federal government, but,again I sayrfor over a year they have not had a contract. Lot~ of talk, Mr.

Speaker, verbal exchapges thrown around, talk, but nothing in writing. Nothing from the federal government in writing until just recently, for over a year. Of course, Mr. Speaker, that is the usual trend of the federal government, verbal, nothing in writing. I think there is a song that goes something l.ike this, ~'Never put it in writing or the worse may happen to you." I think that the federal government has adopted this motto, Mr~ Speaker, it is over a year 3837

May 10, 1984 Tape No. 1496 MJ - 1 MRS. REID: and the Rural Development Associations still do not have an agreement in place. This dedicated group of citizens, those hard working people have been left up in the air and some of those associations have had to lay off their employees. This group of individuals, invaluable to this Province, Mr. Speaker, especially the rural areas, have been slighted by the federal government, ignored, Mr. Speaker, cast-off, given the cold shoulder. Incredible 1 is it not? But even more incredible, Mr.

Speaker, even more unbelievable, now that a federal election is just around the corner,who do you think the federal members are asking to meet with? Who is the hon. member for Gander - ~¥illingate asking to meet with nm•T after literally ignoring them for a number of years? Yes, Mr. Speaker, I remember quite well when the member for Gander - Twillingate completely ignored development associations. He did not even answer a telephone call made by the Development Association. And now, Mr.

Speaker, after his very government in Ottawa has been the stumbling block in their not being a ... rarded a contract for more than a year, now the hon. member decides that he had better make up to this important group of people, and so, Mr. Speaker, meetings ha ve to be scheduled, meetings to make amends, and a few make-work project~ should right the wrongs inflicted upon those people over the past yeaT. Mr. Speaker, are those people's memories so short lived? Can they be bought off so easily? I do not think so, Hr. Speaker. I believe the day is long gone \¥hen people can be bought for any price.

However,if and when an agreement is signed those honest and sincere groups of . volunteers, I am sure, will find it in their hearts once more to forgive those people for giving them such a period of uncertainty and,no doubt, 1ir. Speaker, it will be applied to the federal member's 3838

May 10, 1984 Tape No . 1496 ~.J - 2 ?-1R.S. REID: ignorance in understanding what · rural development associations are all about . Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to see in the budget $15 million allocated to highway and bridge rehabilitation, $21 million allocated towards the upgrading and paving of secondary highways. I would sav, Mr. Speaker, that road conditions in my district create probably the · biggest problem. Ne have a number of gra•1el roads that are not much more than cow paths and I am very grateful to this government that some construction -work has been realized over the past couple of years .

I look fo~~ard to ~~e continuation and completion of this road reconstruction and paving throughout the district over the next few years. Mr. Speaker, we have one road in the district, a very important road to the people, especially to the tourist industry, and that is 3839

May 10, 1:!84 Tape 14:17 Ec - 1 MRS. REID: the road leading to Long Point light house. This road, of course, is under federal jurisdiction, and I understand that the federal member has told constituents in my district that it is the only federal road of its type that is not paved. We have lost quite a number of tourists from Twillingate because, while Long Point light house is one of the main attractions, the road to it is in such bad shape. '~ile ~1av:e lost ten Trentway bus tours this year, so we are talking 500 people there, Mr. Speaker.

That is too many people to lose from a district in the tourist season - plus more, there are others who will not come due to the condition of that particular road. After all, if you cannot see a main attraction in a place, why go there? It stands to reason. It is only about, maybe, a mile long. After a rain storm, buses cannot get up there; if they get up there, they are afraid to come down. Again, I understand that 'another verbal commitment has been made to pave that road this year, another verbal cornrnitment;I hope it comes through. Mr.

Speaker, another problem that we are faced with in my district is that of >vater and sewer. I am pleased to see that $25 million has been budgeted towards those essential services. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Right on! MRS. REID: I am quite pleased with the amount of funding which has been spent in Twillingate district over the past couple of years towards water and sewer. However, Mr. Speaker, we have fallen far behind in the past and it will take a substantial 3840

May 10, 1984 Tape 1497 EC - 2 MRS. REID: amount of money and time to complete some of those systems. I would be remiss, Mr. Speaker, if I were not to mention our offshore resources. This government, Mr. Speaker, has been very fair in dealing with the offshore question. Is it so terribly wrong, Mr. Speaker, to want fair­ ness, to want to be equal partners in Confederation, to want some say in our natural resources? Mr. Speaker, I mentioned in this debate problems in my district, problems relating to the fishery, needs in road reconstruction and paving, needs in water and sewer services, basic needs, Mr.

Speaker, not to even mention the high unemployment rate. This government, Mr. Speaker, is to be congratulated and our Premier is to be con­ gratulated in his continuous efforts to accept nothing less than the best possible deal for the people of this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MRS. REID: I am convinced, Mr. Speaker, that there are brighter days ahead, that we will have a brighter tomorrow. And when I speak about tomorrow, Mr. Speaker, I can say that we, we are the living victims of the tomorrow resulting from yesterday's mistakes. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 3841

May 10,1984 Tape No. 1498 ah-1 MRS REID: We saw that just this past week. Do 'llle, I'r. SQeaker, intend to make the same mistakes? I say,no, ~hie government will not allow this to happen. We will continue to fight, if need be 1 for our rights and give our future generations their place in the sun. Mr. Speaker, this government has hope for the future. I think it is very sad, Mr.Speaker, when people have no hope,but this government has hope, hope that there will be a brighter future, Mr. Speaker, because they have faith.

They have faith in the people of Newfoundland, they have faith that the goods will be delivered in Ottawa come next election so that we will have better hope. And , I guess, last but not least, they have charity. This government has love for the people of this Province, Mr. Speaker, and they will accept nothing but the best for them, they will not see our children strive and go through hardships that even we are going through today, high unemployment, no jobs, students corning out of university with no work. However, Mr. Speaker, we look forward to a brighter future and I am sure we will have a brighter future.

Mr. Speaker, I think it was one day last week members opposite carne in this han. House wearing red roses celebrating a poll count that was showing in their favour. Corne next election, Mr. Speaker, I would say that that red rose will be turned to white. I think, Mr. Speaker, the song says that flowers in May fade,and come next election the members opposite will probably, no doubt, and I am pretty well sure, white rose. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! be wearing a MRS REID: Mr. Speaker, I have no problem 3842

/ May 10 ,1984 Tape No . 1498 ah-2 MRS REID: with supporting this k?udget and once again I want to congratulate the Minister of Finance (Dr .Collins) for such a commendable job . Thank you . SOME HON .MEMBERS : Hear , hea -r ! MR .S PEAKER (Aylward) : The hon . member for Mount Scio . MR. BARRY: Mr . Speaker, I listened very carefully to the member 's well delivered speech .

I noti ced a couple of inconsistencies with statements made by the member for Bay of Islands (Mr. woodrO\o~) yesterday but I think if we look beh .ind to~hat the member was saying we g.ot the same message , to~e got the same concerns coming through , that there is a shortage of employment in the member's district, that there is a need for impr<:>ved government services , and that there is unfulfilled 384 3

May 10, 1984 Tape No. 1499 SD - 1 MR. BARRY: tourist potential. So we have the member saying the same thing as the member for Bay of Islands (Mr. Woodrow) in a very well presented resolution put forth yesterday 1 namely 1 that the government is not performing to meet the expectations of our people, they are not even performing to meet the basic necessities. A job today, Mr. Speaker, is not something that should be considered a luxury, it is not something that should be considered a gift to a person. A job is something that a person should be entitled to.

They should be entitled to expect their governments, both federal, Mr. Speaker, and provincial,to be doing their utmost to see that the jobs are provided. Now,regrettably there is very real question whether the provincial government is doing what should be done to see that employment is created in our Province. And,regrettably,we have a situation where the government opposite has · lost interest in working on the smaller areas of the economy.

Tourism takes a backseat by far to the trilogy of resources which . we h.ear the Premier and his ministers and members opposite continually getting up and espousing and putting forth. And we hear the message time after time that we are lost, it is all over, unless the Premier and his government has its way with respect to fisheries policy ,with respect to offshore oil and gas policy,and with respect to hydro policy. Now, Mr. Speaker, it is motherhood to s-ay that each of these three resource areas are very important , but it is fallacious 1 Jl.1r.

Speaker, and it is · an error for a government to say that :i:t is a waste of time trying to develop the job potential which exis·ts in areas such. as · tourism or other parts of th .e economy. And regrettably I sense that this is what has been happening. And even worse, Mr. Speaker, we see that in these three resource areas where government is channelling all its energies 1 3 B 4 L.

May 10, 1984 Tape No . 1499 so - 2 MR. BARRY: all its attention, its three areas ·Of first priority, we see failure. We see w·ith respect to the Newfoundland fishery a tot.al relinquishing of control,with respect to the newly restructured fish company 1 to the federal gover:runent. It was inevitable, once the Premier and the Minister of Fisheries (.r-:Ir. Morgan) walked away from the bargaining table, that then the federal government would say, 'Well, we are going to go ahead without you.' At that point in time the 3845

May 10, 1984, Tape 1500, Page 1 -- apb MR. BARRY: influence of this government with respect to the newly restructured fish company was all over, finite, caput, gone, and they came crawling back, Mr. Speaker, after a few weeks, when they saw that they were not getting anywhere with their various efforts to attempt to harass the federal government in putting together this restructured cowpany, they decided it was going to be done without them and then they jumped on the bandwagon again, but at that stage the federal government knew, Mr.

De Bane knew they had them where they wanted them to be, that the federal government had this Province where the Province had to accept three positions on a board of ten, a completely minority position,

whereas the federal government ensured that it would have five seats on the board of directors and thereby could never lose control and only needed to pick up one vote from the bank or from the union, so it had greater than 50 per cent control on the board of directors. Now, Mr. Speaker, that was with respect to the fishing industry. So we have seen total failure on the part of the Province, on the part of the government to succeed in promoting the objectives with respect to the fishery. So we are not going to see from this government any significant job creation, nor, indeed, Mr.

Speaker, any significant efforts to salvage the existing jobs with respect to the fishery. Now, let us look at the offshore. Have we seen success there in job creation? Have we seen success there in achieving the priorities put forth by this government in obtaining control over this resource? We have seen again, Mr. Speaker, failure. 3846

May 10, 1984, Tape 1500, Page 2 -- apb MR. BARRY: We have seen failure again because of an unwillingness to continue to negotiate, and unwillingness to stay to the bargaining table. We had . Jean Chretien up in Montreal, we have the Newfoundland minister back in St. John's. Mr. Chretien was there saying, Where is he? Where is my good friend? I am here to negotiate, where is the Newfoundland minister? And all of a sudden, lo and behold, Up pops the minister - where? -in Montreal? No, in St. John's. The same morning that Mr. Chretien is sitting in Montreal waiting for Mr.

Marshall, lo and behold, up pops the Newfoundland minister here in St. John's. And so we have to await the decision of the Supreme Court of Canada. Mr. Speaker, instead of using the arguments that were developed in the offshore case in a bargaining context to get everything possible that could be obtained fo:t this·Province, we had this stupid and futile throwing of all of the onshore eggs into the legal basket and we had,negotiations terminated 1 3847

May 10, 1984 Tape 1501 EC - 1 MR. BARRY: and the end result, of course, is failure and disaster for our government with respect to their priority on the offshore, Mr. Speaker. MR. TOBIN: You said in this House the government had no other choice. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, the member opposite has a tendency to think that he is going to make mileage, that he is going to establish himself as a politician and as a statesman by sitting down,when other members are speaking 1 and attempting to shout them down.

Now, we are all waiting in this House, and we have been waiting for a number of years, for the member opposite to get up and say something. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Aylwar¢) : Order, please! MR. BARRY: Now, Mr. Speaker, we will continue to wait, the member will have an opportunity, and I know, Mr. Speaker, in his eagerness to try to break into the sacred portals of the Cabinet, his eagerness to get that Cabinet position will see him do virtually anything. I know that in harassing members on this side as they speak, that that is wher~ it is coming from, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON . MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. BARRY: Well, unfortunately, I think that the member has to stand in line and the member for Conc·eption Bay South (Mr. Butt) and the member for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg), maybe even the member for Grand Bank (Mr. Matthews), might be in line ahead of him and he may have to wait his turn. Now, there is a lot of deadwood in the government front benches 3848

May 10, 1984 Tape 1501 EC - 2 MR. BARRY: and he may not have to wait all that long, because they are starting to crack, Mr. Speaker, and pretty soon they will crumble, and there will be room for the member on the front benches. So have patience, relax. The member should not have to resort to these techniques of interruption and harassing members on this side when they get up to speak. All things will come in good time to the member if he is patient, if he shows a little statesmanship, and if he shows, Mr. Speaker, that he has the capability of getting on his feet - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

SPEAKER (Aylward): Order, please! MR. BARRY: - getting up on his feet in this House and making a speech, not harassing. MR: PATI'ERSON: He cJ.i.i that last w=ek. You w=re not here to hear him. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. BARRY: Now, Mr. Speaker, as I said, the member for Conception Bay South (Mr. Butt) does not have to resort to the same thing, he can sit back there quietly because he knows that his day is corning, within a matter of weeks only, I am sure. Within a matter of weeks we will see, Mr. Speaker, the right thing being done by the member for Conception Bay South.

And I am not sure that the member for Burin - Placentia West (Mr. Tobin), in the upcoming Cabinet shuffle in a couple of weeks, I am not sure that he is going to make it this time. But give it time, give it a little patience and relax, and I will continue with my remarks. Now, Mr. Speaker, with respect to hydzo, the third prong of the main policies of the government opposite, we see again what? Do we see success in achieving the objectives there, the objectives which 3849

May 10, 1984 Tape 1501 EC - 3 !>1R . BARRY: are going to bring employment, jobs and business into our Province? Unfortunately, Mr . Speaker, again we see failure . You would . think that members opposite would learn from the offshore case . But they end up , after the cou .rt decision, with a weakened bargaining position , a greatly weakened 3850

May 10, 1984 Tape No. 1502 MJ - 1 MR. BARRY: bargaining position, You .would think, Mr. Speaker, that in the hydro case they would recognize the great risk involved and the terrible consequences for this Province. MR. CARTER: There is no other ,.,ay to go. MR. BARRY: Of course there ~ 0ther ways to go, there were other ways to ao. The way to go that was recdrnmended, .Mr. Speaker, was instead of putting all their I "eggs into the basket of waiting for the court decision, members I on this side of the House, members of the general public, members of the business community, Mr.

Speaker, any child out in this Province would be able to tell the members opposite what should have been done,and in fact were telling them what should be done, namely, get back to the bargaining table with the Province of Quebec, put the Supreme Court of Canada decision on hold 1 and get back and put a counter­ offer to the Province of Quebec. What did we see, Mr. Speaker? We see the Minister responsible for Energy (Mr.

Marshall) getting up in this House and saying, 'Negotiations never broke off';aridthen we see the minister answering questions and he says, 'We have had an offer from <!uebec. <<re have said no to that offer from Quebec. We have not made a counteroffer. 'VI1e have not arranged for any further I meet ,ings. We have not made any written or oral communication since rejecting the Quebec offer.' Net-T, Hr. Speaker, is tha~ negotiation? Maybe that is the problem. I AN HON. !~!..EMBER: \"lhy are you shouting out? T•!e have no trouble hearing you. MR. BARRY: Why am I shouting, 1~r. Speaker?

Because it is so frustrating to see the harm which meMbers opposite have brought to this Province by their foolishness, by their errors of judgement. ~ see the position that members opposite have brought our Province to with respect to negotiating for the offshore, ~-Ti th respect to negotiating 3851

May 10, 1984 Tape No. 1502 MJ - 2 MR. BARRY: for improvement in the Upper Churchill contract, our bargaining position, Mr. Speaker, has been severely weakened, our bargaining position has been terribly damaged,and members opposite must take responsibility for that, and members opposite cannot get awav '•r:i.th nassinq this on. MR. t-1A'I'THEWS : HR. BARRY: Will you take responsibility for it? I take the responsibility, Mr. Speaker, for not having the courage to have come over here four years ago. MR. WARREN: Eear, hear! MR. BARRY: Mr.

Speaker, I take responsibility for waiting too long, for sitting for two vears after I resioned,hooinq that I could do so~ethin~ HR. MATTHEWS: MR. BARRY: with members opposite. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : MR. BAR_-qy : You resigned and ran away. - hoping that I could do something Oh, oh! Order, please! ~I. Speaker, I tell you that I have no difficulty sleeping at nights in terms of the decision that I took. And I tell you, Mr.

Speaker, that there has . been terrible harm done to our Province by bad judgement, by errors of judgement on the part of our Premier, on the part of his government and on the part of ~e~~ers opposite who have continued to support him in this reckless, downhill plunge. Mr. Speaker, we have the fact that negotiations, just as with respect to the restructuring of the fishery, just as with respect to the offshore, we had negotiations broken off by the Premier and by the government of •lewfoundland. 3852

May 10, 1984 Tape 1503 PK - 1 MR. BARRY: It was memberp of this House,Mr. Speaker, members of our government which broke off negotiations, terminated negotiations, walked away from the bargaining table, left it to the courts and, now that they have damaged our bargaining position 1 they throw up their hands and say, Oh 1well.Naw we can ask the federal government to come in and save us. MR. WARREN: That is right! That is right! MR. BARRY: That could have been done, Mr. Speaker, anytime over the last fourteen, fifteen, sixteen years. MR. DINN: Why did you not do it ~five years you were in Cabinet? MR.

WARREN: He tried, but the Premier would not let him do anything. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, why was it not done? The same reason , Mr. Speaker, that - MR. DINN: Was that the reason for not doing it between 1972 and 1975? MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, the minister opposite asks,'Why was not the federal government asked earlier?' MR. DINN: Yes, when you were Energy Minister between 197~ and 1975. MR. BARRY: Because , Mr. Speaker, a diversionary tactic was not needed at that time. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. BARRY: It was not necessary, Mr. Speaker, to resort to this foolishness.

I will ask the minister to get up and tell us about his expectation as to whether that is going to be sufficient. Is that going to solve Newfoundland's problem to send Telexes and telegrams off to the federal government? Is that all that the minister can suggestl 3853

May 10, 1984 Tape 1503 PK - 2 MR. DINN: The han. member should discuss his five years as Energy Minister. MR. BARRY: Speaker, of what was done. MR. DINN: MR. BARRY: Proud! Proud! Mr. Start off in 1972. 1972 to 1975, 1979 to 1981, Mr. Speaker, proud of what was accomplished, proud of what was set up, all of it to be wiped away in a period of two years after I left by errors of judgment by the minister and the members of the government opposite. MR. WARREN: Well said! MR. BARRY: Hear, hear! Well said! Mr. Speaker, what members opposite seem to ignore is the value of having a legal claim - MR. WARREN: That is right.

MR. BARRY: - not, Mr. Speaker, because you ever want to have to reply on that totally, but because that is the stick, Mr. Speaker. In every negotiation I believe there should be both a carrot and a stick if you expect to be able to get a good deal in a negotiated agreement, if you expect to end up in a reasonable position, Mr. Speaker - MR. WARREN: You were irresponsible. MR. BARRY: Now you are hearing it. Mr. Speaker, I would ask the protection of the Chair to keep my colleague quiet here •. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward): Order, please! MR.

BAIRD: He is the only one that got the fortitude to come in and listen to you and then you ridicule him. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, that applies to the other side too. 3854

Ma~ 10, 1984 Tap e 150 3 PK - 3 MR. BARRY: In every negotiation, if you are going to get a good deal, you have to have a carrot and a stick. Now there is still the carrot with respect to the hydro case. There is still the carrot of the rivers which flow from Newfoundland into Labrador. There is still an interest on the part of the Province of Quebec in seeing those developed. But, Mr. Speaker,the Province has greatly weakened the ·stick, and in fact one stick has been lost, the stick of the Water Rights Reversion Act has been lost. And the Minister responsible for Energy (Mr.

Marshall) and the Premier have not t.old us whether there are other sticks which exist. We see the minister quoted in the paper out of Ottawa today, 'The Newfoundland Government will move within 3855

May 10, 1984 Tape 1504 NM - 1 MR. BARRY: a few weeks to try again to change the contract with Hydro­ Quebec. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I believe that we have to carefully examine what other legal options remains, if any, and I believe that there probably are some, The comnittee of lawyers which was set up several years ago d~d not just recommend the Water Rights Reversion Act approach; there are ntherrecommendations which government should go back and look at, and there are other options identified there which could be utilizied and which could see that this Province still has a stick to carry into negotiations with Quebec as well as a carroE. Mr.

Speaker, however, either the stick or the carrot will only be useful if negotiations commence again. So there is a need, Mr. Speaker, for the Premier and the Minister responsible for Energy (Mr. Marshall) to indicate to the Province of Quebec that this Province is prepared to resume negotiations with respect to the offshore. There is a need for the government to indicate that it does not consider itself helpless, that there are other sticks available to it. Mr.

Speaker, there is a need for the Province to get back to the bargaining table, to not just listen to offers from the Province of Quebec, and I hope that the government will be prepared to reveal what those offers have been to date~ But,,Mr. Speaker, it is time for this Province to put a counteroffer on the table, it is time for this Province to engage in real negotiations with the Province of Quebec, not just saying to the Province, "Well, you give us your position, you give us your offer." And then say, "No, that is not accetpable." Tr.at is not negotiation, Mr. Speaker, there has to be more.

I could go on, and I am sure I will take some 3856

May 10, 1984 Tape 1504 NM- 2 MR. BARRY: later on in the session, another four or five week when things start to slow down a little bit,and we do not have items of more interest to discuss, I may take three or four days and tell the member opposite. of what we did, Mr. Speaker. MR. DINN: That 'V.Ould be very, very interesting and take a few rrdnutes. MR. WARREN: There is not a quorum. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I know there are problems with members opposite in maintaining a quorum because the heart is gone=out ;of them. MR. PATTERSON: They do not want to listen to you. MR.

BARRY: The heart is gone out of them but I would rather finish my few remarks, Mr. Speaker, and we will call a quorum when the member opposite gets up to talk. We will call a quorum then. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : Order, please! MR. BARRY: What is wrong with my old friend from Placentia (Mr. Patterson)? Has he had another bad night? MR. PATTERSON: ran away? MR.

BARRY: I am just wondering why you Well, you know, I know the member for Placentia was disappointed, and I know the member would have very great difficulty in changing his political stripe after the very courageous battle that he fought for how many elections? MR. PATTERSON: MR. BARRY: MR. PATTERSON: 3857 Oh, a good many. How many? You were there.

May 10, 1984 Tape 1504 NM - 3 MR. BARRY: I know you were there. How many were there? He started in the 1950s and I think it was '75 he was first elected, so a.quarter of a century the member opposite has been fighting to gain a seat in this House 3858

May 10,1984 Tape No.l505 ah-1 MR. BARRY: under a particular political banner. So I can understand, Mr. Speaker, why it is going to take that member a little longer that it took myself to see that they are going nowhere. I tell the member the crowd in front of him are going nowhere, they are leading this Province down - MR.PATTERSON: IThe crowd in front of me are going nowhere: You were included in that crowd. MR.BARRY: The crowd in the two rows immediately in front of you, the front rows, the front benches opposite,are taking this Province down the slippery slope. And I know that the member for Placentia (Mr.

Patterson) is wise enough, is shrewd enough and has the experience to see that what I say is correct. So eventually the member is going to have to set aside his strong personal feelings and he is going to have to put the Province ahead of them. Because I can understand and sympathize with how the member for Placentia would feel that he has to stay where he is after fighting for a quarter of a century. But I submit now, to give credit to the member opposite, he fought for a quarter of a century for a party and for certain principles.

And I ask the member opposite was it for the type of thing we have seen in the last two years? Is that what the member opposite fought a quarter of a century for, to have that imposed? Now we will be listening when the member opposite gets up and we are going to want answers to some of these questions. I commend the member for his solidarity and I commend the member for his partisanship and I commend the member for his commitment to his party. 9ut I ask the member to get up and tell 3859

May 10,1984 Tape No. 1505 ah-2 MR.BARRY: this House whether he believes that the existing condition in the Province is being improved, whether the condition ·of the people of this Province is being improved by the policy of the members sitting in the two rows in front of him? I would ask the member opposite to get up and have him tell this House if the future of our Province is being brightened? MR.PATTERSON: and let you know Monday. MR.BARRY: I will check my quija board Is the future of our Province being brightened by the groundwork being laid by the members sitting in the two rows in front of him?

Is losing the Supreme Court of Canada case after walking away from the bargaining table, ·is walking away from the bargaining table and losing the hydro case - MR.PATTERSON: What about you walking away after negotiations and MR.BARRY: Mr. Speaker, there comes a point in time,and I ask the hon. member to remember that, there comes a point in time when you have to say,'That crowd are going nowhere.• The member knows it and he should be prepared to admit it. MR. TOBIN: That is not your problem, MR.BARRY: The member for Placentia West (Mr. Tobin) can spout the party line, Mr.

Speaker, but the people of this Province are not interested in those political games. The people of this Province are interested in asking what policies are being put forward by the government of this Province and, Mr. Speaker, are those policies going to improve the condition of our people today and of the people of this Province for generations to come~ And they know, 3860

May 10, 1984 Tape No. 1506 SD - 1 MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, they know, to their sorrow they know that losing the offshore case, losing the hydro case because of a refusal to negotiate,that that is not leading this Province in the right direction. And it is therefore, Mr. Speaker - I have been given my notice so I gather I have to sit down. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. BARRY: SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave. By leave? By leave. MR. BARRY: Hr.

Speaker, it is because of these few points that I have made that I find that I have to, and I think all members opposite would have to if they sincerely put the interest of the Province first 1 would have to support the amendment proposed by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary),'That this House regrets the government's failure to put forward any plans to improve economic conditions in the Province or to create jobs.' Now, Mr. Speaker, that is the amendment which has been proposed to the resolution put before this House. And, Mr.

Speaker, I am glad that I have leave to continue for another few minutes,because we have, in the case of the offshore ,with respect to the substance of the policies that are put forth by our government 1 we have had a tendency on the part of our government to point to Nova Scotia and say, 'Look, see how much better we are than Nova Scotia. See how good we are compared to the Government of Nova Scotia. See how much better our agreement is going to be when we get it - ho, ho - than the agreement which the Nova Scotia government already has.' Lo and behold, what do we find?

We see the Newfoundland minister standinq up and readinq from this Socio-Economic Review of the Venture Development Proiect. And he reads · on page 18 that '·It is reasonable to assume that the net impact of the project on provincial revenues is small to negligible'. And, Mr. Speaker, this is after- and Hansard 3861

l-1ay 10, 1984 Tape No. 1506 so - 2 MR. BARRY: \vill show this - I have told the Minister responsible for Energy tMr . t-1arshall) about the fact that Premier Buchannan, the Premier of Nova Scotia, has sai d that he has a special arrangement of equalization.

And then, again, Hansard will sho,, I got up while the minister was quoting from this report and I said that the minister omitted to read the previous paragraph which says, 'Under existing equalization legislation , \..rhich is renewable on a five year basis, it appears that for every dollar provided by the project the Province giv es up a dollar,approximately , in equalization payments .' Now that was the basis on which this second paragraph was based 1 that the Province of Nova Scotia was losing dollar for dollar.

Lo and behold , I get up and I tell the minister on a number of occasions in this House that that is not so , that Premier Buchannan has indicated that there is an arrangement where they lose less than dollar for dollar. The minister pays no attention to that. It is not until !{r. Chret±en comes down and gives a written,prepared statement, releases ±t to the pressJ and indicates in that statement, MI . Speaker -3862

May 10, 1984 Tape 1507 EC - 1 MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, leave is withdrawn. MR. SPEAKER (Dr. McNicholas): Order, please! Leave has been withdrawn. The hon. member's time has elapsed. MR. BARRY: What? Could we, for the record, Mr. Speaker - I did not hear that. Which member was it? MR. SPEAKER: Leave has been withdrawn by the hon. the member for Burin - Placentia West (Mr. Tobin). MR. BARRY: The member for Burin - Placentia . West has withdrawn leave to hear information on the Nova Scotian offshore agreement. MR. TOBIN: If you are going to spread propaganda for Mr. Chretien in this House, all leave is withdrawn. MR.

BARRY: The member for Burin - Placentia West does not want to hear why the Newfoundland people could get a better deal. MR. DINN: MR. SPEAKER: MR. BARRY: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Order, please! I am sorry, Mr. Speaker, I am speaking to the point of order. MR. DINN: The point of order was just ruled on. Is this a new point of order? MR. BARRY: I would like to raise a point of order then, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: On a point of order, the han. the member for Mount Scio. MR. BARRY: I would like to thank the minister for pointing out these complex technicalities to me. The point of order, Mr.

Speaker, is that leave was given and I did not hear anybody withdraw leave. And I guess the member for Burin - Placentia West, being embarrassed to stand on his feet in his place 3863

May 10, 1984 Tape 1507 EC -2 MR. BARRY: and say, 'I withdraw leave', he whispered it to the Chair. So we want to have the people of the Province aware of the fact that the member for Burin -Placentia West (Mr. Tobin) is very sensitive to the fact that the Newfoundland minister did not even check what was in the Nova Scotia agreement before he started to criticize it. He had been criticizing it for two years and did not know what was in it. MR. SPEAKER (Dr. McNicholas): To that point of order, the han. the member for Burin -Placentia West did stand in his place and withdraw leave. MR. CROSS: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The han. the member for Bonavista North. SOHE HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. CROSS: Mr. Speaker, I too, welcome the opportunity to have a few words to say in this Budget Debate. First, I would like to congratu­ late the member for Twillingate (Mrs. Reid) on a very sterling speech. I think she shows herself to be, and has shown herself to be since being elected in 1982, a very confident and able member in representing the views and the wishes of her constituents and in helping them. The han. the member for Mount Scio (Mr.

Barry) who just took his seat, first when he started speaking, I think, started condemning the restructuring of the fishery in our Province, condemning the restructuring of the fishery before it is given a chance. And although, Mr. Speaker, it is not too often that I find it necessazy to speak harshly of any member or 3 B 6 L~

May 10 , 1984 Tape 1507 EC - 3 MR. CROSS: any members, and although, perhaps,it would be wrong for me to try to impute motives, I believe members opposite rejoice when something happens that is negative. It seems to me that they are itching so much to want to leave the Opposition fold and form a government, that they seem to be happy when something goes wrong. I listened to the hon. the member for Mount Scio (Mr. Barry) and I can only say that · I think he was condemning what he preached when he was a member on this side of the House. 3865

May 10, 1984, Tape 1508, Page l --apb MR. CROSS: A few moments ago while speaking, he said that he believed that this government is going nowhere. I have a few little words of advice for the hon. member, and maybe just a word or two of wisdom. It is a little jingle that goes something like this: Be careful of the words you say and make them short and sweet/ You'll never know from day to day the words you'll have to eat. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. CROSS: The hon. member said that this government is going nowhere. I believe, firmly believe, faithfully believe that he will have to eat those words.

Because he has been eating his words, feeding off words that he uttered on this side of the House ever since he crossed from this side to that side. Mr. Speaker, this weekend there will be, I believe, a Liberal function in the great historic district of Bona vista North which I represent. I do not think there will be any trouble in finding enough Liberals in Bonavista North to attend that function. There are still a few there, but I can say this much, that there are more supporting the P.C.

Party in that great historic district of Bonavista North today than were supporting the Party in 1982 when the election was fought. I am very sure of that, and that great historic district of Bonavista North, that great historic district -you could add another word one time, and that was that great historic Liberal district of Bonavista North, because it had been Liberal so long, but now it is a great historic district. The people saw the light and as a result of that we can say it is the great historic Progressive Conservative district of Bonavista North. MR. PATTERSON: as well. MR.

CROSS: 3866 I did the job on the Liberals Mr. Speaker, the han. the

May 10, 1984, Tape 1508, Page 2 -- apb MR . CROSS: member for Bellevu~(Mr.Callan) who is the only member sitting in his seat - weil, he is not in his seat, in a seat on the other side - the other day was speaking in this debate and I listened with some interest to what the han. member for Bellevue had to say in the debate last week, in particular to his remarks on agriculture. He stressed the fact that we were not producing nearly enough agricultural products to supply our own needs, and naturally, theJ;"e the han. m~er was right.

And he did mention that we were close to 95 per cent self-sufficient in eggs, and there is one other commodity that we are close to self-sufficiency in and that is rutabaga, or turnips, and I believe the han. member asked why this was so. I guess we could say one of the reasons for it is that we do not have that much agricultural land in Newfoundland. 3867

May 10, 1984 Tape No. 1509 ~~J - 1 MR. CROSS: Also,I believe another reason is that in Newfoundland the cost to produce agricultural products, th~ cost of production,to produce agricultural products, is really high. In fact, it is higher in Newfoundland than in most 1 if not all 1 Canadian provinces. But there is another reason also for our being less than self-sufficient in quite a few of our agricultural products. Back in 1970 an egg marketing board was established in Newfoundland.

When that egg ~arketing board was established,we were close to self-sufficiency then,and after that board had been set up the egg marketing people, the Egg Marketing Board of Newfoundland, decided to make application and to join the National or the Canadian Egg Marketing Board which is supervised by the National Farm Products Marketing Council. The fact is, that it is the Canadian Egg Marketing Agency, not the Newfoundland Egg Marketing Board that has the right to set quotas.

But while, as I have said 1 we were close to self-sufficiency back in 1970, and we are still there now, our quotas have not increased that much. In the mid l970s,the chicken or broiler producers in Canada set up a chicken marketing agency made up of representatives from the various provincial boards. When that board was established, although we had no provincial marketing board and could not become a member until we had established one, the National Chicken Marketing Board had the right to set chicken quotas for Newfoundland.

In 1976 - '77,that national board was set up and Newfoundland•s base quota was set and given at a little less than 4.5 million pounds and although we were not a member in 1978 when that board came onstream,the national agency was making their presence felt and some~hi~g had to be done in Newfoundland. That something that was done was a chicken marketing scheme was drafted and in April of 1980 1 a Chicken Marketing Board was established in Newfoundland made up of chicken producers 386B

May 10 , 1984 Tape No. 1509 }1J - 2 MR. CROSS: in Newfoundland, mostly. In 1981 Newfoundland became a member o£ the Canadian Chicken Marketing Agency. In 1979,our proquction was approximately 7,600,000 pounds. In our negotiations to become a member in 198l,our board negotiated with the Canadian ~~icken Marketing Agency for quotas of 9.5 million pounds.

We are only about, at this point in time, less than 50 per cent self-suf£icient in chicken, But in 1983,the quota was approximately 10.5 million pounds and negotiations are ongoing to have that increased in ;L984. ~~at I am trying to say is that when we entered the Canadian Chicken Marketing Board,because we were not self-sufficient, because our production was low,it is going to be harder now to reach self-sufficiency. ~7e will get increased quotas, and 3869

May 10, 198 4 Tape 1510 NM - 1 MR. CROSS: it is the national agency that sets the quotas. We will get increased quotas. One reason is if our consumption should increase and there is need for increased production, we get some. If the population increases and we consume .more chicken,because of that we get some, and so on. But the point I am trying to make, Mr. Speaker, is that we have made progress. In 1979 we had one marketing board in Newfoundland, and that was the Egg Marketing Board that was set up in 1970.

Today, since 1979, the number of marketing boards that have been set up has increased, and as well as that egg marketing board we not have a chicken marketing board, we have a milk marketing board, we have a vegetable marketing board and a hog marketing board. And those boards,naturall~ are working to increase production, to find ways to decrease the cost of production, to improve other methods of production and look for ways to improve their marketing set-up. So we have made progress. But I want to stress the fact that if other provinces are organized in their marketing effort,then we must organize too. Mr.

Speaker, to get back to the budget for a few minutes, when you look at the escalating cost to government of services to our peopl~ over the last few years,it makes one wonder, if costs continue to increase 1 where the dollars will come from to provide these services in the future. And for just a moment or two I want to make some compar~sons between the 1975-76 budget and the 1984-85 budget costs of services to our people. The first year that I sat in the House of Assembly was 1975/76 and,if members will recall, that year was the first year that our total budget topped $1 billion.

I think it was something like $1,040,000,000 in 1975/76. In 1984/85 that $1 billion is not $2 billion, 3870

May 10, 1984 Tape 1510 NM - 2 MR.. CROSS: but in e~cess of $2.2 billion. In the last eight years our budget has more than doubled, and the fact is that while the budget has more than doubled,we still find that we do have su:fficient dollars to bring adequate services to our people and that tells us that the $2.2 billion could and should possibly be $2.5 billion. In 1975/76 our total budget in Education, $264 million; in 1984/85 $525 million; in Health $194 million, in 1984/85 $477 million; Transportation $111 million in 1975/76, $167 million in 1984/85; Municipal Affairs $51 mill~on, in 1984/85 $92 million. And it goes on and on. Every department increased expenditures. 3871

May 10, 1984 Tape No. 1511 MR. CROSS: The question I would like to ask and to dwell on for a few minutes is where would the dollars come from if our budget more than doubles over the next eight years? Well, there are only SD - l three places, I suppose, for us to get revenues to run our Province, to provide services and to try to improve on resources and so on, taxes, borrowing and from our resources. These are the three sources, I suppose, of revenues for government. And I ask the question, where will the dollars come from? Will the money come from increased taxes? I doubt it.

We know that we are already the Province with the highest taxes of any province in Canada. Our taxes are already too high,whether it is tobacco tax, gas tax, liquor tax, sales tax, income tax, you name it. So if we got to trust to increase taxes for all of the dollars that we will need, we will be sadly lacking, I believe, Mr. Speaker. Then, naturally, you can borrow for revenues .. But we cannot borrow stupendous amounts of money to supply our wants, it will only increase our per capita debt. And we know that already our public debt is among the highest in Canada.

So if we cannot get more dollars from taxation, if we cannot borrow too many more dollars, there is only one other way to supply our needs and that is to get a greater return from our resources. And whether that is fish, hydro, oil, minerals, forest products or whatever we have to find a way to get a greater return from our resources. Mr. Speaker, Newfoundland is rich in resources. On paper, Mr. Speaker, we are the richest Province in Canada in resources. We have a population of 600,000 people to support but we have the most extensive fishing grounds of any country in the world. They are not only extensive, Mr.

Speaker, but they are the richest fishing grounds anywhere to be found. We have vast hydro resources. 3872 "'-

Hay 10, 1984 Ta9e No. 1511 SD - 2 MR. CROSS: We have vast natural resources in oil and gas in the offshore,and we have minerals and forest products. We are rich in resources, Mr. S9eaker, yet we are the poorest Province 3873

May 10,1984 Tape No. 1512 ah-1 MR. CROSS: in the Canadian family. We have the highest taxes, the highest unemployment, the lowest standard of living. The problem, Mr. Speaker, is that while we are rich in resourceswe do not have jurisdiction over our major resources. Our fish,which is and always will be our greatest single resource,is controlled by the federal government. We have no say over licensing, we have no say in th_e issuance of quotas, whether it is quotas for our own fishermen, whether it is quotas for our sister provinces,or whether it is a quota for foreigners.

And we have no say in what the ±otal allowable catch should be and very little say over any fishery policies. Mr. Speaker, I like to think that I am a conscientious member~ I always move and work among my people, and last weekend I met and talked with some of the fishermen in the district of Bonavista North · and many of them, Mr. Speaker, are disturbed. The han. member for Twillingate (I1rs Reid} made reference to it as well. Many of them are disturbed at what is happening in the fishery. One of their concerns is the amount of caplin that is being given away.

Only last week we saw double the quota of caplin afven to Russia, an increase, as the han. member said from 10,000 to 20,000 One fishermen in the district put it this way, and he knew what he was talking about , Mr. Speaker, he said, Our lump roe fishery is gone. That was not taken away by the foreigners,but the lump was taken for the roe and it was overfished. In the district that was the first to have a lump roe fishery the fishermen l~c- -~·dl~,' :bother now because of conservation. You catch the lump and you naturally take the roe from it. But 3874

May 10, 198 4 Tape No. 15 12 ah -2 MR.CROSS: one fisherman put it this way, our lump roe fishery is depleted, our herring was overfished and a three year ban had to be put in place. And this is what that fisherman said, In another five or six year$, if someone does not wise u~ there will have to be a ban put on our caplin or they will be gone. Now, Mr.Speaker, as the member for Twillingate (Mrs Reid) stressedand I stress,the big problem is that the caplin are the main food of all other species, our salmon, our cod, our flounder and our turbot. All other grounQ.fish species depend on the caplin for food.

If we deplete the caplin, and there are few to come to shore each year, then the other species, especially the cod,will not come either. That was the fisherman's way. We can see from the past,that depleting to .o fast our fisheries. 3875

r.1ay 10, 1984 Tape No. 1513 MJ - 1 MR. CROSS: ~1r. Speaker, I have lived close to the fishery. In fact,as I said in this hon. House before, the first dollar that I ever earned was in the fishery, fishing with my father. F .. nd Hr. Speaker, I have brothers, nephews and cousins still fishing for a living. Mr.

Speaker, I can remember in the mid 1960s when I fished with my father on an island called Flowers Island, in Bonavista Bay,and we would leave to go to Flowers Island to fish and in June month,when the caplin were running and the weather was good, the waters around the boat and as far as you could see would be black with caplin. While there are still lots of caplin around now,they are not as plentiful as they were then.

Y'?hen the caplin came to land in the sp:ing,all we needed wa9 a codfish dip net, a very large dip net and a bucket to hold them, and as they came through the tickle that separated the two islands where we fiehed, you would get all you ·wanted. But I venture to say, Mr. Speaker, now 1 in 1984 1 you would starve on that island 1 and the dip net that vou used would rust out before you got a meal :)f caplin in the primitive Nav ~.re dicl. by using a cod dip net where the caplin could drop through. Mr.

Speaker, I do not want to be a prophet of doom but I will make the prediction now that if we do not watch it 1 five or six years from now our caplin stocks will be in trouble. Let me repeat what I said before in this hon. House, that our fishermen \V"ho have been fishing for years know the story. Uncle Joe Oram, from Dover, with whom I talked last week, \V'ho has fished fifty years 1can tell the fishing officials more than they know about the fishery. Oh, yes, the fishermen are the best source of information, they are the ones who '1ave • been experimenting over the years.

If it takes double and triple the nets today to catch the same amount of fish as was 3876

May 10, 198 4 Tap e No. 151 3 MJ - 2 MR. CROSS: caught,say,twelve y~ ago 1there is only one conclusion to be reached and that is tba ·t fish is not as plentiful now as it was then. Sixteep years ago, Mr. Speaker, there was a boat built in Valleyfield, that is in my district, she was named the Strait Shore, and that boat was used to experiment in the fishery around Newfoundland. One of the first places that she fished was a place · called The Hole in Bonavista. HR . SHIM S: The Hole? t.'fR . CROSS : The Hole, H-0-L-E •. MR . SH1MS : Is that near Greenspond, somewhere? MR. CROSS: No.

That boat used twelve nets some sixteen years ago,and in one haul caught 14,000 pounds of fish. That was sixteen years ago. My brother - let me tell you this, I am using him as an example because he is the close .st example to me - my brother has fished that same spot for the last six years. MR . snm s: An d he ishstill fi shi nq. HR . CR OSS : He is 3877

May 10, 1984, Tape 1514, Page 1 -- apb MR. CROSS: still fishing, right. But in the six years the fish in that spot have been dwindling, each year lower and lower. And he has never realized that amount of fish, 14,000 pounds, in seventy nets that he fishes and last year, lo and behold, he had to vacate the area like so many more fishermen who were fishing that area. Why? There were no fish there. Seventy nets and not enough fish to make a day's pay. Sixteen years ago, twelve nets, 14,000 pounds. , That is what is happening to our fishery, Mr.

Speaker, and the fishermen are telling the story, and I like to tell it in this House as well. Mr. Speaker, our salmon fishery is in serious trouble, and we all know that some­ thing must be done to help the stocks recoup. But a law which makes a fisherman throw away a dead salmon will do nothing to rejuvenate the stocks ·. A fisherman with no licence to catch salmon but who has a licence to fish a cod trap, if he goes to his net and sees a ten pound salmon in the walls of the trap, or in the leader, and it is dead, because he does not have a licence he will not be able to take it.

My brother has eight children, do you think he will throw away a ten pound salmon if it is dead in his net? MR. BUTT: Darn right, he will not. MR. CROSS: I would not blame him. And the people who are trying to make that law are stupid. MR. STAGG: It is a stupid law, yes. MR. CROSS: It is a stupid law, there is no joke about that. Then, again, they are talking about part-time fishermen. Mr. Speaker, whatever would be my alternative, I do not think a dead salmon should be given as a breakfast to the crabs if a fisherman's children wants it. 3878

May 10, 1~84, Tape 1514, Page 2 -- apb MR. CROSS: You might say, What would be your alternative? We talk about a Newfoundland way of life, and I can remember, Mr. Speaker, and the same thing ·is happening in rural Newfoundland today but not to the same extent, but taking the licences away from the part­ time fishermen will not do the trick, and I would say that it would not be fair, anyway. Some of these part-time fishermen need the money they make to feed their families. A blanket 'Take away all the licences from the part-time fishermen'? No. There are some part-time fishermen who do not need them.

You take those, but you do your research first, and then the fishermen or farmers who need them give them to them. Whether we believe it or not, Mr. Speaker, we still have fishermen, and farmers, and foresters who need every dollar .they make on all three ventures to eke out a living. And I know that every member in this House and some of the people in the gallery have heard this expression before, 3879

May 10, 1984 Tape 1515 EC -1 MR. CROSS: that a Newfoundlander was a jack-of-all-trades, a jack-of-all-trades, it was said, and master of none. But back ·t~1ere, he had to be a jack-of-all-trades, and today some people still have to be a jack-of-all-trades, that means make a living on two or three jobs where they can find them. And, Mr. Speaker, that has been a rural way of life. And the time will come when the fisherman cannot farm, the farmer cannot fish, the carpenter cannot fish and the fisherman cannot build. All these policies are only causing friction between those people and, Mr.

Speaker, is not government interfering with one of our basic freedoms, the freedom of enterprise, to work at what you wish? Mr. Speaker, before I end my few remarks on the fishery and in this debate, I would be more than remiss in my duties if I did not take this opportunity to congratulate the operators of Beothuck Fish Processors in Vall~yfield. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. CROSS: Over the past three or four years when most fish companies have been experiencing financial difficulties, Beothuck Fish Processors have come through with flying colours. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

CROSS: I believe it would do other fish processors a lot of good if they took a page from Mr. Boyd Waye's books. His operation is a glowing success. It has been a glowing success story since he started operating back in 1967. I said earlier in my remarks that we must get a greater return from our resources if we are to progress, that we are poor not because we 3880

May 10, i9B4 Tape 1515 EC - 2 MR. CROSS: lack resources but because someone else has control of our major resources and wants the lion's share, to leave us with a mere pittance. That is what happened to our great hydro resource. I am not saying anything new, I know, but it bears repeating. In 1983, Quebec walked away with $790 million and left us with only $8 million, all because of a contract that was signed, a very unfair contract to say the least. Mr. Speaker, when we began selling power to Quebec, we - MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! Except by leave, I have to advise the hen. member's time has expired.

Does the hon. member have leave to continue. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: MR. CROSS: Agreed. Agreed. I will not be that much longer. When we began selling our power to Quebec, we were getting 3 mils a kilowatt and Quebec was reselling for 9 mils. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Shame! Shame! r1R. CROSS: Today, we get the same, but Quebec gets in excess of 30 mils a kilowatt. We, in the beginning, were receiving one-third of the revenues, now we are getting less than one-tenth. Just think, Mr.

Speaker, what a difference it would make if we were still receiving one-third of these r~venues, one-third of $900 million is $300 million. We would have no current account deficit this year and our borrowing requirements would be met with money to spare. MR. SIMMS: Hear, hear! MR. CROSS: Yes, with the fraction we were getting then, we could be in a very healthy financial 3881

May 10, 1984 MR. CROSS: l-IR. PATTERSON: Tape 1515 EC - 3 position in Newfoundland. Give-away Liberals. 3882

May 10, 1984 Tape 1516 PK - 1 MR. CROSS: Not all ,Mr. Speaker, but a fair deal on our hydro resource, and a fair deal on the offshore could make our Province a have Pro vince in the Canadian family. I do not believe, Mr. Speaker, that we entered Confederation to be number ten when we entered and to always :be number ten . I believe our aspirations should be a little bit higher. We should look to move up the rung of . Confederation's ladder so that we can be equal Canadians~ ' be equal in the dollars We are equal in resources, we should that come from those resources. Mr.

Speaker, to many it must have seemed a big deal in 1949 when the federal government offered to take over our fishery, and in the Confederate paper of that time it said, 'The federal government will protect and encourage our fishery'. I do not see that today, Mr. Speaker. But I will tell you one thing,I do not see it ~ut I will speak out , ,and if somebody wants to call me a separatist sobeit 1 but I am not.

But printed in the Confederate paper of June 8, 1948 we saw this:'To all the fishermen the cost of living w±ll come down, the cost of producing fish will come down, the Government of Canada will stand behind our fishermen, the Fish Prices Support Board of Canada,backed by their canadian millions will protect the price of fish to the fishermen.' Mr. Speaker, what happened two short years after? My memory has not grown dim,because I was in a fishing boat then. After we entered Confederation our fishery was in trouble, two years after. Mr.

Speaker, the federal government turned a deaf ear and a blind eye to the plight of our fishermen,and I was one of them, and what they had strived for for year was lost to them. They had to vacate the fishery, their boats and their schooners were hauled ashore to rot in the coves and harbours of Newfoundland 1and their traps 3883

May 10 , 1984 Tape 1516 PK - 2 MR. CROSS : and their nets were left to rot in loft~, and a lot of our fishermen at that time had to go on welfare . Too many of our people today feel that Newfoundland has made no contribution to Canada, since we joined in 1949- AN RON . MEMBER: Right on ! MR. CROSS : that everything comes from Ottawa , and that we are doing very little for ourselves and giving nothing in return for what we are getting. Mr. Speaker, if we summed it all up,we as Newfoundlanders in the Canadian family are net contributors, we are only getting our own passed back to us .

With those few remarks I thank hon . members for their attention and I take my seat . Thank you . SOME HON . MEMBERS: Hear, hear ! 3 8 8 Lt

· May 10, 1984 Tape No. 1517 SD - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Aylward ) : Order, please! Before I introduce the next speaker I am sure all members would wish to join me in welcoming to our galleries a group of Grade X and XI students from Long Island Academy, Beaumont South, Green Bay, accompanied by thejr Student Council Advisor, Janice Collins. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I wish to have a few minutes to say a few words in the nudget debate. I believe I will have an opportunity probably of speaking twice, on the budget and on the amendment.

However, just listening to the two han. members, the member for Twillingate (Mr. Reidl and the han. member for Bonavista North (Mr. Cross), one would think that this government is all rosy, and one cannot help nut think that both members have - MR. CROSS: MR. SPEAKER: member for Bonavista North. MR. CROSS: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. A point of order, the han. I did not say that everything was rosy in the Province. We have our problems. I tried to say where they were and what they are. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. WARREN: MR. SPEAKER: member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: To that point of order, !1r.

Speaker. To that point of order, the han. I did not say the member said it. I said one would think that this government is rosy. MR. SPEAKER: To th1.t point of order, it is very obvious that there is a difference of opinion netween two han. members . The han, member for Torngat Mountains, 3885

May 10, 1984 Tape No. 1517 SD - 2 MR. WARREN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. However,I assure the han. House that when I am finished,in the next half an hour that I have, that one will see that this government has not performed in the best interests, in all respects, of the people of Newfoundland and Labrador. Now, Mr. Speaker, let us go back to the Question Period today and the voluntary payments to fishermen ~.rho have lost their income because of the ice c.onditions along the Northeast Coast and East Coast of the Province of Newfoundland. The han. member for Twillingate (Mrs.

Reid). got up and out of one side of her mouth she said she asked it, and out of the other side of her mouth she said she asked for an extension of the UIC benefits. Now, Mr. Speaker, the onl y thing the han. member did was ask for an extension of the UIC benefits. It was the ;Fisherrnen' ·s Union,- let us give credit where credit is due - it was the Fishermen's Union who requested the voluntary payments and who also told th~ Minister of Employment and Immigration that the federal government did it in 1974 when there was a crisis in the industry, and asked why they could not do the same thing again.

So that is where that request carne from. Subsequently, I had the opportunity today to speak to the han. John Roberts, the Minister of Employment and Imrnigration 1 and he has convinced me, Mr. Speaker, and I am pleased to say that I believe - I am pleased to say that, in fact, on the first ballot at the convention in Ottawa, on June 17th, I am going to vote for John Roberts. Because as far as I am concerned, Mr. Speaker, John Roberts has come out so fast and so quick - MR. SIM?1S: Where is Munro's button? MR. MARSHALL: HR. SPEAKER (.Aylward) : A point of order, Mr. Speaker. A point of order, the hon.

President of the Council. 3886

May 10, 1984 Tape No . 1517 so - 3 MR. MARSRA.LL: I do not think that how the bon. gentle~an is going to cast his ballot in the federal Liberal . Leadership Convention is relevant to this debate, and I have a certain certitude that it is not of the slightest interest to this House . MR. WARREN: MR. SPEAKER (AylNard) : member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. To that point of order, the hon . It reall y does, Mr . Speaker, because we want to look at who the next Prime Minister of the country wiLl be. The Minister of Finance CDr. Collins), when he brought in his budget, was saying that we did not have 3887

May 10, 1984 Ta pe 1518 NM - 1 MR. WARREN: good representation from Ottawa, Ottawa has not looked after us in the best manner,so this is why I said that I believe that maybe John Roberts will be the best Prime Minister of Canada, Mr. Speaker. So directly or indirectly it has a lot to do with the budget. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward): To that point of order, we are discussing the budget and usually a very wide-ranging debate is allowed. Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: The hon. member for Thank you, Mr. Speaker. So let us put that aside. The federal government is going to - MR. SIMMS: are you supporting him, too? MR.

WARREN: to fit. What about Eugene Whelan, No, I have not got a hat I should say something now, Mr. Speaker, that listening to the CBC in the past week or so, of all the ministers on that side of the House,every morning when you listen to the report from the House the CBC reporter will say, "The Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth (Mr. Simms) interjected here," or "interjected there," You know,he is the only minister on that side of the House who really should be ashamed, being a former Speaker in this House, for trying to be so nasty and shooting back and forth and interjecting.

Now I could take it from the backbenchers, because,after all 1they are not groomed to be ministers yet, but to see a minister of the 3888

May 10, 1984 Tape 1518 NM - 2 MR. WARREN: Crown shooting back and forth, even the media is saying indirectly that the minister should be ashamed of the way he acts in the House. MR. SIMMS: No, they did not say that. MR. WARREN: So, Mr. Speaker, let us go on and talk about the fishery. I believe now that we have the crisis in the fishery on the Northeast Coast of Newfoundland and Labrador settled. I have to give the member for Twillingate (Mrs. Reid) a pat on the back, the unfortunate thing about it is that her resolution that she has on the Order Paper may not be debated.

We may not have time in this session of the House to debate her resolution. Because her resolution I agree with 100 per cent. I only wish that the government would agree to replace the resolution by the member for Baie Verte-White Bay (Mr. Rideout), with her resolution, because her resolution deals with the problem that we have today, and that is that unemployment insurance for fishermen ends on the 15 of the month, which should not happen, and she is asking for an extension. And I believe that is-a positive move and I would think that it is a resolution that should be debated as early as possible.

If there needs to be changes in the Unemployment Insurance Act, sobeit. You know, Mr. Speaker, we are hearing all kinds of complaints from Bonavista Bay, Trinity Bay, and Notre Dame Bay about the ice conditions, and here it is the 15 of the month corning up when the UIC will be cut off. Now, Mr. Speaker, I should remind the han. House that July 1 there are people in my district who will still not be able to put their nets in the water. You are talking about another month and a half. 3889

May 10, 1984 Tape 1519 EC - 1 MR. WARREN: So I believe that unemployment insurance for fishermen should be extended until the time is suitable for them to prosecute the fishery. t1R. MATTHEWS : Unemployment. MR. WARREN: Well, I advise the hon. the member for Grand Bank that the unemployment insurance officials have received numerous letters from myself, numerous letters from the Torngat Fisheries Co-op. in Labrador, numerous letters from fishermen's committees and repre­ sentations from the federal member for Grand Falls - White Bay - Labrador, and for some reason they will not change it.

During the nine months that Mr. Clark was in power, I got ready and took all my correspondence that I had to the federal Liberal minister and I sent it off to the hon. Jim McGrath and I said, 'If you are so concerned about the fishery, and you have been complaining about the U.I.C. regulations, now is your chance to change them. And you know, Mr. Speaker, in nine months - it was one month after they came in power - the only thing I received from Mr. McGrath was a letter saying, 'Thank you for your letter of congratulations on my entry into the Cabinet.' That is the only thing I received from Jim McGrath. Now, Mr.

Speaker, the federal Tory Government at that time should have been as much con- cerned about Newfoundland as a federal Liberal Government. ~tr. Speaker, since the Minister of Development, the Minister responsible for Housing (Mr. Windsor) is in his seat, in the Chamber, which is very frequently lately, I should probably in my few remarks, say a few words concerning housing, particularly concerning housing in Labrador. I am quite pleased that his department has found three individuals to occupy the 3890

!>1ay 10, 1984 Tape 1519 EC - 2 MR. WARREN: three houses that were vacant in Nain. However, I would like to ask the minister why it takes so long for manx of the unoccupied houses in Happy Valley - Goose Bay to be occupied. I believe the minister will realize that there is an extensive waiting list for the occupation of those units and surely, there could be more initiative shown by officials of his department in Happy Valley - Goose Bay.

I understand that there was an internal investigation made into the operations of Newfoundland and Labrador Housing in Happy Valley - Goose Bay but what the results were I am afraid I do not know nor does anyone else. MR. WINDSOR: MR. WARREN: You are not going to either. No, as the han. minister says, I am not going to know either.

But I believe there should be more than an internal investigation, I believe there should be a fullfledged investigation involving the general public and then the minister will realize the skullduggery, the under-the-table deals that are going on in Goose Bay and see why an employee was released from his duties with very little explanation, Mr. Speaker. Maybe the minister will have time to contradict or clarify this in the debate. In due course, the minister will have that opportunity. MR. WINDSOR: Nonsense! No one is paying any attention anyway. 389 ·t

May 10, 1984 Tape 1520 PK - 1 MR. WARREN: Well, you must be because you interjected. so,therefore,Mr.

Speaker, when a minister gets upset there nas to be something to it, All of the concerns that were brought forward by people, by supporters , I might add, of that administration about what is going on with Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation in its office in Goose Bay,Labrador, I could tell the minister the names of the people who have gone to his office,or gone to the office of his department and complained about the di~crefancies and I hope the minister will, in due course, rectify those discrepancies. Now, Mr. speaker, let us go to Social Services.

Before I go to Social Services, because I think my time may run out tomorrow, the Minister - MR. BUTT: Call it 5:30. Call it a day. MR. WARREN: No, I would not unless the hon. House wants to do so. I know I have lots of time to go ahead tomorrow. Do you want me to keep on going? MR. MARSHALL: I can take it, I do not know if the House can. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, arout two days ago the hon. Minister of Rural,Agriculture and Northern Development (Mr. Goudie) carne in here .. ~ with a Ministerial Statement telling about a Telex that he hCd sent off to Mr.

De Bane concerning the new sal,~on, fishery policy and, in particular 1 ~ow it hurt the ._.,/ J I ' - -. sports' fishermen in Labrador, particularly, I believe, in his district. No doubt the hon. gentleman had due concern, becaase I believe altogether there may be forty or fifty people directly or indirectly employed in the sports fisheries in 3892

.May 10, 19 84 Tape 1520 PK - 2 MR . WARRE N : Happy Valley-Goose Bay. However, Mr. Speaker, a long time after the fact the bon. LeaQ;er of the Opposition . (Mr. Neary) and our Fisheries critic (Mr. Tulk) sent a telegram to Mr. De Bane opposing it. Shortly after, within an hour the bon. Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) sent another telegram to Mr. De Bane opposing it, and about ten days later the member for Naskaupi (Mr. Goudie) decided to send a telegram too.

I wonder where was the member for Naska:1,1pi and where is the Ministerial Statement that the member for Naskaupi issued . when the North · West River F.ospital closed down? When the Labrador hunter's were abandoned in the country and the German Air Force had to bring out their skidoos and, their goods, where was th .e minister? .MR. SIMMS: He arranged it. Sure he arranged it. MR. WARREN: No, I assure you the hon. member never arranged it. It was my meeting with the German Air Force. MR. SIMMS: That is what you say. MR.

WARREN: In fact 1I would be only too glad for the hon. member to come up to my office and I will show him a nice letter, 3893

May 10, 1984 Tape No. 1521 .MJ - 1 MR. WARREN: a very complimentary letter that I have received just showing what took place. However, ~..rhere was the member from Naskaupi (Mr. Goudie) when EPA and Parry Steele decided to change the air schedules of the passenger flights going in and out of Labrador? The minister never came in with any telegrams or Telexes or Ministerial Statements on that issue. Where '"as the member when the Department of Transportation moved the highway depot from North West R'iver up into Goose Bay?

TtJhere is the member when the different organizations in Happy Valley - Goose Bay are still complaining to the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) ,are still complaining to the Minister of Justice (Dr. Collins) about the lottery licences 1 how they are affecting organizations that are helping the peonle?

In oarticular I could tell the hon. gentleman of one organizaticn alone that last year raised $35,000 and redi-rected it baak for the good of the people in Happy Valley - C~ose Bay. ~lliere was the minister when his department was not issuing, was not making sure that the monies in the federal/provincial Native agreement was being spent in the best interest of the Native people? \-'.!here was the minister last Winter when the water and sewerage in Makkovik was not operational? Where was the minister then, when they only asked for $60,000 to get it back, Mr. Speaker? MR. TOBIN: ~7hose district is J.~akkovik in?

MR. WARREN: Whose district is J~akkovik in, I wonder? In fact maybe the hen. member does not know. MR. SIMHS: ~lhy are you attacking Mr. Goudie? MR •. WARREN: Why am I attacking Mr. Goudie? The han. member just asked a question. If t~e hon. member would go back through Hansard then he will find the last time 1 in the last Session of this hon. House!when the hon. the Minister 3894

Ma y 10, 198 4 Tape No. 1521 MJ - 2 !.ffi.. WARREN: of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Develop!Uent (Mr. Goudie) spoke,I believe the minister probably made similar conunents in trying to shame me in what I was doing for my district, so I thought I may as well throw the thing back in his lap this time, You know, you got to draw the minister on his feet somehow. Once I speak in this House, Mr.

Speaker, I can assure you that we will not have to wait for a backbencher to get up 1 because we will see the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development on his fee .t tomorrow morning and you will see the minister l~shing back at the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren), making a vicious attack. Mr. Speaker, it looks like it is close to 5 :30 ' p.m., I think I will adjourn the debate. MR. SPEAKER (RUssell) : There are no· questions for ~- the Late Show, and a motion to adjourn is deemed to have be~n made. On motion, the House adjourned until tomorrow, Friday, ~'tay 10, 1984 at 10:00 a.m. 3895

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