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October 24, 2013

40th Parliament, 2nd Session

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Hansard Transcripts

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

Hansard Transcripts 2013-Oct-24 (PDF)

L076 - Thu 24 Oct 2013 / Jeu 24 oct 2013

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ONTARIO

ASSEMBLÉE LÉGISLATIVE DE L’ONTARIO

Thursday 24 October 2013 Jeudi 24 octobre 2013

ORDERS OF THE DAY

WASTE REDUCTION ACT, 2013 /

LOI DE 2013 SUR LA RÉDUCTION

DES DÉCHETS

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

ORAL QUESTIONS

POWER PLANTS

PUBLIC TRANSIT

NUCLEAR ENERGY

ENERGY POLICIES

PAN AM GAMES

LOBBYISTS

TEACHERS’ COLLECTIVE BARGAINING

ONTARIO PUBLIC SERVICE

MINING INDUSTRY

RESEARCH AND INNOVATION

ONTARIO COLLEGE OF TRADES

HORSE RACING INDUSTRY

CONSUMER PROTECTION

JOB CREATION

CORRECTION OF RECORD

CORRECTION OF RECORD

CORRECTION OF RECORD

NOTICE OF DISSATISFACTION

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

NOTICES OF DISSATISFACTION

MEMBERS’ STATEMENTS

HOLOCAUST MEMORIAL DAY

GRACE REBEKAH LODGE 136

JACK “CHICK” GORDON

GREAT BLUE HERON CHARITY CASINO

DEER POPULATION

POLIO

HEALTH CARE

ATTENTION DEFICIT

HYPERACTIVITY DISORDER

YOUTH LEGAL SERVICES AWARD

REPORTS BY COMMITTEES

STANDING COMMITTEE ON

GENERAL GOVERNMENT

STANDING COMMITTEE ON

FINANCE AND ECONOMIC AFFAIRS

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY

AND RESPONSES

LANGUAGE TRAINING

YAD VASHEM

PETITIONS

FISHING AND HUNTING REGULATIONS

ONTARIO MUNICIPAL BOARD

PUBLIC TRANSIT

CHRONIC OBSTRUCTIVE

PULMONARY DISEASE

TAXATION

WASTE REDUCTION

AIR QUALITY

AIR-RAIL LINK

WASTE REDUCTION

PERSONAL SUPPORT WORKERS

HYDRO RATES

WASTE REDUCTION

MINING INDUSTRY

PRIVATE MEMBERS’

PUBLIC BUSINESS

COMPREHENSIVE PAY

FAIRNESS ACT, 2013 /

LOI DE 2013 SUR L’ÉQUITÉ

SALARIALE GLOBALE

POWER PLANTS

LOBBYISTS REGISTRATION

AMENDMENT ACT, 2013 /

LOI DE 2013 MODIFIANT

LA

LOI SUR L’ENREGISTREMENT

DES LOBBYISTES

COMPREHENSIVE PAY

FAIRNESS ACT, 2013 /

LOI DE 2013 SUR L’ÉQUITÉ

SALARIALE GLOBALE

POWER PLANTS

LOBBYISTS REGISTRATION

AMENDMENT ACT, 2013 /

LOI DE 2013 MODIFIANT

LA

LOI SUR L’ENREGISTREMENT

DES LOBBYISTES

POWER PLANTS

LOBBYISTS REGISTRATION

AMENDMENT ACT, 2013 /

LOI DE 2013 MODIFIANT

LA

LOI SUR L’ENREGISTREMENT

DES LOBBYISTES

ORDERS OF THE DAY

SUPPORTING SMALL

BUSINESSES ACT, 2013 /

LOI DE 2013 VISANT À SOUTENIR

LES PETITES ENTREPRISES

The House met at 0900.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Good morning. Please join me in prayer.

Prayers.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

WASTE REDUCTION ACT, 2013 /

LOI DE 2013 SUR LA RÉDUCTION

DES DÉCHETS

Resuming the debate adjourned on October 22, 2013, on the motion for second reading of the following bill:

Bill 91,

An Act to establish a new regime for the reduction, reuse and recycling of waste and to repeal the Waste Diversion Act, 2002 / Projet de loi 91, Loi créant un nouveau cadre pour la réduction, la réutilisation et le recyclage des déchets et abrogeant la Loi de 2002 sur le réacheminement des déchets.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Further debate?

Mr. Michael Mantha: I’m glad to be talking about waste reduction, Bill 91, this morning, but I think I’ve got to find a way to stop wasting time when I’m running around from area to area. I was just rushing in this morning from an early-morning meeting, and it’s amazing how fast you can run when you have to be on time to talk about this bill. But I’m glad to join the debate this morning, Mr. Speaker, and I’ll try not to be late for the prayer next time.

I’m pleased to stand today with one of the final remarks during the second reading of Bill 91, the Waste Reduction Act, 2013. It’s important to recognize that this is a substantial bill, a bill that affects each and every Ontarian in their daily lives. We must move forward with the protection of our environment, and a major part of that is reducing our waste and creating a strategy to properly manage it.

Regardless of how much time is spent talking about this, now is the time to act, especially when we are in a province that sits last among the rest in the country in terms of achieving their waste diversion goals. We cannot wait any longer; our environment is constantly at risk, and now—not soon; now—is the time to do something, to proceed and to move forward.

I am happy to see some of the following aspects included in Bill 91. This bill sets diversion targets and enforceable standards for producers to meet. This is extremely important. By creating a Waste Reduction Authority, we can properly enforce waste reduction activities. This bill allows municipalities to register with the WRA, which will require waste producers to pay municipalities for the collection and recycling of designated materials.

Although municipalities can negotiate the fee paid by waste producers, this could pose challenges for many municipalities in rural areas and northern communities. As distances between residences in rural areas are farther, road conditions are more challenging and weather can be more severe, I am left to wonder whether the costs and fees associated with this bill will be higher for those living in rural areas.

It is good that this bill considers disposal bans, which can be effective tools for preventing recycling materials from going to landfills. These kinds of tools have been used in places like BC and Nova Scotia. All British Columbia regional districts have banned toxic materials from landfills, and as more recycling options become available, more items are being restricted. Metro Vancouver introduced new landfill bans in January 2008 that cover all curbside recyclables and all products covered by a provincial stewardship program as a means to significantly reduce the waste entering regional landfills. They are years ahead of us, Mr. Speaker.

This has proven successful for other provinces, and we can hope for the same here at home. In 2004, the Liberal Minister of the Environment announced that the government’s intention was to develop a strategy for Ontario that would divert 60% of the province’s waste from disposal by 2008. That was in 2004, nine years ago—nine years ago, Mr. Speaker.

The bill has the potential to increase diversion rates by setting strong, material-specific targets for recycling and diversion. The bill expands on the industrial/commercial/institutional sector, which is very much welcome as the sector is mired with very low recycling rates at 13%.

It is important to acknowledge the municipal role: the significant infrastructure investments in waste collection over the years and the efficiency municipalities have shown as collectors of waste.

The bill still has a way to go. It has the potential and is well intentioned when it talks about the potential to increase targets for diversion rates by setting strong, specific targets. But what are those targets? They are uncertain over what the targets will be and what the time frame is. We need to have a plan. We need clearly outlined targets and a clearly outlined time frame. We need to set a goal, and we need to put the steps and timelines in place to start achieving these goals.

What happened to the goal of zero waste? In the past, this government has touted a zero-waste plan. However, Bill 91 does not mention the aim of achieving zero waste: the goal of protecting the environment and the goal of protecting human health. Like many here, we are not too old to forget the old grade school teachings of the three Rs. The bill doesn’t recognize the importance of the three Rs: reduce, reuse, recycle. It fails to encourage reuse, such as a refillable deposit return container system, over recycling. A look across the country shows that provinces with a deposit return system have higher rates than those without.

However, these positive aspects of the bill continue to be Toronto-centric and urban-centric. What is the plan for rural communities, I beg to ask? Where do the needs of rural communities show up in this bill? How are they addressed? How are we going to support rural communities to divert waste? How will we ensure that producers of waste will take responsibility for waste diversion in northern communities?

People get upset if they can’t put something into their blue bin that they think should be recycled. They’ll call the city and complain; they’ll call the municipality and complain; they’ll raise the issue with city councillors. I believe that people take these actions and initiatives because they want to protect our environment, and now they want to protect it for future generations.

However, this mentality—the idea that people can call their city councillors to talk about waste management processes—doesn’t apply for Ontarians in rural areas. Residents in rural areas don’t have blue bins. Many communities are just beginning to develop waste management facilities to incorporate and include recycling as part of their waste management strategy. Believe it or not, Mr. Speaker, people in many rural areas—some of them—are still disposing of their garbage by burning it in their backyards.

While this bill excludes burning waste from waste diversion programs, the legal impacts of this provision are unclear. The bill also places limitations on the burning of waste for energy. The three main problems with incineration are that it is a very inefficient use of end products; it has potentially negative health and environmental effects; and it locks municipalities into contracts that require them to secure a guaranteed waste stream for years to come, which runs counter to the goal of moving towards a zero-waste province.

This bill does include a provision for all-in pricing, which will help consumers avoid confusion. This will also ensure that environmental costs of products are not passed on to municipalities and taxpayers.

While people in Ontario do not necessarily spend hours of their day at this point thinking about what the provincial government is going to do to promote waste reduction, we have a job to do: to create laws and to create good policy. We have a job to ensure that policy we are putting forward is good policy that encourages waste reduction and also ensure that we are creating the framework for better policies to protect our environment for my children, your children and those to come.

I’m pleased to have had the opportunity to voice my concerns in regard to this bill. It is a good step moving forward, but again I need to stress the point that in northern and rural communities a lot of these communities are finding it very challenging to obtain the resources and to come to the agreements. A lot of us are very well-connected between those communities—it’s to find a streamline and a balance in regard to the cost. As I said in my comments earlier, many—even our children—want to participate in waste reduction. We know the importance of doing this.

We see that our landfills are diminishing year after year. The challenges are coming. But in northern Ontario and rural communities, we do not have the luxury of having all of this available to us and all of those resources. So I’m looking forward to having those discussions, and I’m pleased that you were here this morning to listen to the comments that I had. Thank you very much.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Questions and comments.

Mr. Mike Colle: I was listening attentively to the member for Algoma–Manitoulin, with his attempt to recover from his run up the stairs. I think he made some very valid and insightful points in terms of the challenges and the reality of waste diversion in Ontario. There’s no doubt that we have ongoing challenges, and this is an attempt, this bill, to try to meet some of these challenges.

I know that there is a reality difference between rural and urban Ontario in terms of waste diversion. He’s so right; there are special challenges in the north that we need to address to make them able to do their waste diversion.

I know that in Toronto one of the things that has worked—almost accidentally—in terms of waste diversion is that for about a decade our blue boxes in Toronto were filled with wine and booze bottles. It seemed that all the glass that was coming from the blue box was in these bottles, and they were contaminating the waste stream. Then there was a change that allowed the Beer Stores to collect wine and beer bottles.

When that change was made, almost without any government intervention whatsoever, except that small change allowing the Beer Stores to participate, we had—overnight, almost—all of the beer bottles, wine bottles and booze bottles gone. Almost overnight they disappeared, because what was happening was that people in Toronto saw an opportunity, basically, to return those bottles and get a refund at the Beer Store for each bottle. So individuals who perhaps had a hard time finding a job or were essentially living on the margins, every day in Toronto when the blue boxes are out, are going door to door, taking the wine and liquor bottles out of the blue boxes and returning them.

The Beer Stores have almost become recycling stores. There are more people in there, I think, recycling bottles and getting a return than there are buying beer, most times I’ve been there. So that has helped, and that was just one of the almost unintended consequences.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Questions and comments.

Mr. John O’Toole: It’s always a pleasure to listen to the member and the perspective from Algoma–Manitoulin, because he does effectively represent the interests and perspective of his riding.

I generally agree with his theme; definitely, you can’t throw the whole baby out with the bathwater here. But our critic on this and his staff, Shane Buckingham and others who have worked on it—the member from Kitchener–Conestoga, Mr. Harris—have done a phenomenal job of dissecting this Bill 91, which is really a bit of a shell, technically. That’s the real disappointment here. Really, the evidence is before all of us. For instance, the member said that the largest amount of the waste stream is the ICI sector, the industrial-commercial sector; in fact, it’s 50% of all the waste.

There are solutions for that stream on the waste stream. But really, what’s the performance of the government after 10 years? Well, I think they were at the 20% level of recycling ICI waste. What is it today? It’s 12%. The measure of the laudable goal of zero waste—that’s very laudable, but let’s measure the outcome after 10 years. How is it working, all this action, or lack of it? You see it right across the spectrum on this file, and now we’re seeing it on the energy file. It’s just tragic. They’ve ruined the entire file. Now we’re paying more and using less. Do you understand? Because we can’t afford it.

I want to stay on topic here, because I think there are a couple of parts in the bill that he had mentioned. He mentioned the all-in costing. Well, what’s happening to the consumer? You’re not going to know what it costs. It’s going to be more, though; it’s going to be buried in the price. So there’s no accountability, no transparency now. That’s the deal. This is just another barrier to the consumer, and he said he doesn’t want to pass it on to the consumer. It’s not going to be a tax anymore, but it’s in the price, which is a tax. It’s tragic, what they’re doing here.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Further questions and comments?

Mr. John Vanthof: It’s always an honour to be able to speak in this House, particularly to follow on the comments of the member from Algoma–Manitoulin regarding the waste diversion act. As always, he puts a lot of focus on his riding and the problems that people in his riding will face. I always like to be able to follow him, because his riding and my riding have a lot of similarities. A lot of the things about waste diversion and waste reduction don’t work in a sparsely populated area. There’s even a difference between rural southern Ontario and northern Ontario. The population is completely, completely different.

We do need to do something. Something comes to mind: Before I came to this place, a long time ago, we were involved in a big fight about a landfill, the Adams mine landfill in northern Ontario. We spent a lot of time at consultation hearings talking about the numbers for waste reduction. This was a long time ago—10, 15 years ago—and the numbers haven’t changed. So, obviously, something has to be done. I think all three parties can agree something has to be done. There are obviously very big differences of opinion on what has to be done.

The one thing in this bill that bothers us considerably is the creation of a waste management authority which is unaccountable. It’s a step removed, again, from this Legislature; it’s not accountable to the Auditor General. Why are we doing this again? We know the problems that this House has encountered, that that government has encountered, by creating third-party unaccountable quasi-government organizations. Why are we doing this again?

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Questions and comments?

Mr. John Fraser: It was a pleasure to hear the member from Algoma–Manitoulin recover from his run up the stairs and speak very eloquently about the concerns in his riding with recycling and waste. I was also pleased to hear from the member from Durham, who said we shouldn’t be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I want to go on in that theme a bit. In Ottawa and Ottawa South we have a green box program which we just started about two years ago. It’s meeting some success right now. We went to—

Interjection.

Mr. John Fraser: There we go. We went to biweekly garbage pickup now. People are saying, “It’s not going to work. We shouldn’t be doing this. There are all sorts of reasons why we shouldn’t be moving forward with this.” The program is gaining in success.

What this bill does—it doesn’t speak to the green box program, but it speaks to the blue box program, which enables municipalities to have a more stable stream of funding and control over their blue box and less burden on the municipal taxpayer. As well, the bill clearly defines what the roles are of each level of government and producers and municipalities.

Again, I agree with the member from Durham. We shouldn’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. We all agree that this is something we need to do; we need to move forward. Will we need to do other things, like we do in many social endeavours we take forward as a government and as a legislative body? Yes, of course.

I’m glad to speak in support of Bill 91.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Further debate?

Interjection.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): My apologies. The member for Algoma–Manitoulin, a two-minute response.

Mr. Michael Mantha: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Were you running into the House, too?

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): It’s been a long week.

Mr. Michael Mantha: It’s been a long week for all of us. Actually, I started my day on the right foot, and it’s going to be a very long day.

To the member for Eglinton–Lawrence, I’m pleased to hear that you understand the realities of the challenges between rural and urban. You talked a lot about the collection of beer bottles and wine bottles. We have a different collection in my area. A lot of those collections are done for fundraising. People actually keep their beer bottles at home—keep all of that at home—because at the end of the month or every other fundraising opportunity, every organization—they

schedule themselves to go around the small communities in order to fundraise for their activities. That’s one of our ways of diverting waste and getting fundraising for them. I’m glad that what’s happening in your area works for you, but for us, it’s a little bit different. We use it in a different way.

The member from Durham said some very good words, and there’s a lot of them that we can actually agree on—you know, the transparency and accountability of this government. You’re absolutely right: There are things we can agree on. But you can’t discount taking a step forward. This is something that, yes, is moving a step forward, and it is going to help. It’s not going to cure everything and we have to work at it, but you can’t just say no and not move forward on the issues. You have to take that step forward and be willing to take that step forward.

The member from Timiskaming–Cochrane has championed a lot of issues in his area, and I always enjoy sitting at the table when we’re in caucus and having a lot of our discussions, because that’s essentially what we, from small northern Ontario communities, always bring forward to discussions and the debate.

To the member from Ottawa South, I’m glad that the green box program is working for you, because you have the capacity. The biggest challenge we have in northern Ontario is that we don’t have that capacity yet. We need to structure a way where we can connect all of our communities, address the question about distances between those communities and then we’ll move with it.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Further debate?

Mr. Jack MacLaren: I would like to speak to Bill 91, and I would like to start off by saying that unfortunately our party will not be able to support this bill because it’s not quite right.

I would like to point out what the shortcomings of this bill are. It really doesn’t change anything at Waste Diversion Ontario; it just gives it a new name. It creates new, bigger taxes, and it creates more bureaucracy with garbage police, and they’re unaccountable.

We know, from the history of unaccountable agencies in the province of Ontario, that when we set them up, we invite corruption. We expect troubles, and we get them. If we create the potential for agencies that are unaccountable to do something wrong, that situation invariably does happen sooner or later.

We have big charges for eco taxes. A John Deere combine would pay $823.20 as an eco tax fee to dispose of used tires. In Quebec, that same fee would be zero dollars, and in Manitoba, it would be $24. That’s a penalty for business people in Ontario. It puts us at an economic disadvantage with our neighbours, and that’s something we should not do. When we create an eco tax like that, what we are saying to the people of Ontario is, “We don’t trust you to do the right thing, so we’re going to penalize you with a tax and a fee.”

This bureaucracy, the Waste Reduction Authority, starts with a registrar who will have a list of producers. He will hire or have in place deputies who will help put in place this list. There will be inspectors, who will basically be garbage cops, and they’ll have the ability to fine people for not doing the right thing. So there’s more of that penalty, that idea that we don’t trust people to do the right thing, taking people’s freedoms away. That’s very undemocratic, and we should not be doing that.

What we should be doing, the PC Party would say—oh, and one other thing that’s wrong with this is that there’s a tribunal to appeal wrongful decisions, but basically you’re appealing to the people who hurt you in the first place. We know, from practice in other organizations, that just does not work, so we cannot do that. That’s an unworkable thing.

This organization is exempt from the freedom-of-information act, which kind of flies in the face of everything we stand for: openness and accountability. The Auditor General cannot be approached unless the minister agrees that it’s a good and proper thing to do. Those two actions right there remove oversight and remove accountability. They protect an organization that has police powers to lay fines, from oversight and scrutiny of the people of Ontario, even the minister.

What we should be doing, and what the PC Party would recommend, is that the Ministry of the Environment take responsibility for overseeing the recycling of garbage. In this case, it’s just 3% of the total garbage stream, so it’s only a very small percentage of our total garbage: used tires, electronic devices like televisions, and household hazardous waste like paints and cleaners.

We would have no taxes. There’s no need for taxes. We would trust people and encourage people to do the right thing. The Ministry of the Environment—

Interjection.

Mr. Jack MacLaren: Well, we have to trust the Ontario people, because they are good people, Mr. Speaker, and they deserve our trust. Certainly, they’ll get that from this party.

We will set targets for recycling, we will establish environmental standards and we will monitor how the process goes. That will be the Ministry of the Environment, and that’s how it should be done.

We have seen in the past, when we have set up an agency like this that has no oversight and accountability—such as the OSPCA, which is a charity that has police powers and what they do to people. Steve Straub in Vienna, Ontario, had his animals seized, and he got a bill for $167,000. Surely that’s abuse of power and authority. The appeal process was with the same people who took his animals and took him to court, and we don’t want that to happen to any other people. Surely, if we set up a body like the Waste Reduction Authority, that has police cops and no oversight and accountability, these kinds of things can happen.

I would like to digress a little bit, Mr. Speaker. It’s not really a digression but a broadening of the subject, because we’re only talking about 3% of the garbage, and I think we can’t do that, really. We have to look at the whole ball of wax. We have to look at 100% of garbage and how—as a people—in the long term, garbage should be managed in Ontario.

We had a committee in my riding. In my riding, we have the Carp dump, which is the largest dump in Ottawa. It’s full, and the waste management company that owns and operates it has applied for a second landfill beside the first. Recently, about a month ago, their environmental assessment was approved for the potential building of this dump, and the Minister of the Environment did a very good job on that, so my hat is off to him on that point. That’s positive news, sir.

So that subject of waste management is a very hot topic in my riding. We had some people, after the last election, who came up to me and said, “Why don’t we strike a committee of six people”—there were six of us—“to talk about what we do with garbage in the long term in the province of Ontario?”

We decided that, first of all, we should take the attitude that it’s our garbage; it’s our responsibility. Because it’s our garbage, and it’s our responsibility to dispose of it, we should also dispose of it in our community, because to put it on a truck and send it to our neighbour, whether that be New York or wherever, is basically irresponsible. That was the first thing.

We should also take a look at ICI garbage and assume that is our garbage as well, because the only reason the industries, commercials and institutions are producing a good or a service is because we want that good or service. And as a result of producing that good or service, there is garbage produced. Therefore, it is our garbage. That would simplify the garbage process, because now all garbage would be in one class, not two, as we currently have, which confuses and complicates the business of the disposing of garbage.

Beyond that, we would go one step further. We have the three Rs, as was mentioned earlier by the previous speaker: reduce, reuse, recycle. I would suggest we should add a fourth R, and that would be recovery. Recovery would be incineration. Basically, the recovery

part is where we incinerate the garbage and recover the benefit in energy, which could be used to produce electricity or heat that could be used in various ways.

In the town of Brampton they’ve had an incinerator for 25 years, right in the town. It works well. I talked to Peter Robertson, the former mayor of Brampton, and he was very proud of how well this privately owned and privately operated incinerator worked. They burn garbage, they produce electricity, they pipe steam across the street to a cardboard manufacturing plant. They make cardboard, pipe the hot water back, and it’s recycled through the incinerator. Europe has been effectively using incinerators for probably 50 years. They’re usually in cities. They burn clean, they burn well, they do the job. It gets rid of the garbage.

Here in Ontario we can’t mandate incineration, but we should encourage it, as government, as a choice to municipalities—it would be the choice of municipalities. Recently, the region of Durham, after years of process and millions of dollars—seven or eight years, I think it was, and $14 million—got approval to build an incinerator, and they are in the process of building it as we speak along Highway 401 in Bowmanville.

I met with those people. What a proud and wonderful group of individuals: Roger Anderson, chair of the region; his team of engineers, led by Mirka Januszkiewicz, who is the engineer. She’s a lady who is so enthused in what they were doing. The whole group was so enthused with what they’re doing. They’re doing the recycling, the composting and the incineration, because they committed that there would be no landfill in their community in 1999, and now in 2013 or 2014, their incinerator will be up and be built. They tendered it and did a wonderful process of choosing the best advice they could find in the market.

There are four or five companies in North America that produce working, proven incinerators, and they chose one of them. It’s an exciting process.

I believe that would better address how to manage garbage: We take the attitude that we own it, we’re responsible for it. We encourage incineration, which reduces the need for landfills. In smaller rural communities, incineration is not an option; it’s expensive, but it should be something we very much encourage. Our group of people came up with this plan, which I think is wonderful; we’re quite excited about it. The Durham folks were inspiring, and they’ve started the ball rolling again after 25 years.

Environmentalists with false information stopped the idea of considering incineration in the province of Ontario, which was a 25-year setback in time, I would say. Now the ball is rolling again.

I think we need to embrace that as the future: the four Rs, the responsibility and incineration as the way to go along with recycling of all kinds. More than just 3%, Mr. Speaker. This is a 3% solution; we’re looking for a 100% solution.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Questions and comments?

M me France Gélinas: It’s rather interesting to see that the goals are good. We all want to go there. We all want to go to a place where people will reuse, will reduce, will recycle and, sure, they will take responsibility. But the road to get there doesn’t seem to be as straightforward as one would think.

Ontario is a huge province that has very different cities and towns. I represent 33 little communities. Not one of them is big enough to be a town or a city or anything of the sort. But the people who live in Nickel Belt, they want to participate. They want to recycle. They want to be part of the 100% solution, like the member was just talking about. But it will take a different form, depending on where you live.

At the end of the day, I would say the people of Ontario are hungry for this. The people of Ontario want it to happen. If you go into any one of our schools, if you talk to the youth, they get it. They want to participate, and they’re a captive audience of people who would love it more if only the infrastructure was in place for them to do this, if only in little communities like the ones I represent, whether it be Shining Tree or Westree or Mattagami or Ivanhoe Lake or Foleyet or Sultan or any of the 33 beautiful communities that I represent. So far, their opportunity to recycle is non-existent.

We have to do better. We have to find a way where the path to 100% will happen no matter where you live in this province. The resolve to go there seems to be shared by all three parties. The route to get there I don’t think is as clear as it needs to be. By continuing dialogue, I hope we will get there.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Questions and comments?

Hon. John Gerretsen: I’d like to comment on the member’s speech as well. Look, the reality is that the Waste Diversion Act that was passed in 2002 was a good attempt to increase recycling in this province. It simply hasn’t worked. We’re doing a good job with respect to household recycling. People are firm users of the blue box, the grey box program and also, to a certain extent, the green bin program. But when it comes to industrial waste, we’re simply not doing enough. I believe it’s only at about 12% or 13% right now.

What this bill is really all about—and Speaker, we’ve had eight hours of debate of this. If we all agree that this is the way to go, that we’re going in the right direction, let’s get it to committee, let’s get the bill back, make some amendments to it and get on with it. The fundamental aspect of this bill is twofold. Number one, it gives the government much greater control over the total recycling industry that’s out there currently. We’ve basically left it up to the private sector, by and large, and quite frankly it hasn’t worked to the extent that it should.

Secondly, we are making producers responsible for the cost of the final disposition of the product once the product is at the end of its life cycle. You know, when a product is built, it has labour costs and it has material costs. It should also have the end-of-life-cycle recycling costs, reutilization costs or whatever built into it. That’s what this bill is really all about.

Let’s get on with it. We cannot continue to dump all of our problems in dumps, landfills or whatever we call them. All we’re doing is we’re just leaving a much greater cleanup bill for future generations. We simply cannot allow that to happen. Let’s pass this bill, let’s get on with it and let’s get a better recycling system in the province of Ontario.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Questions and comments?

Mr. John O’Toole: The Attorney General is certainly making more than is necessary out of this. The importance of people democratically having the right to debate is—we should be careful treading on that.

But I do, out of respect for the Minister of Environment, who is here—he’s in pain, I can tell, and it’s not particularly from this bill, so I won’t be harsh on him this morning. I know if the member from Kitchener–Conestoga was here it would be a different game. He would be holding his feet to the fire, so to speak. But because his knee is in such bad shape I won’t twist on him.

I would say this, though: I did listen to some of the comments from people within the community of the environmental watchdog groups. The Ontario Waste Management Association sent me a letter, and in it they said: “Over the last two decades, we have struggled to make progress on waste diversion. The overall recycling rate in Ontario has remained relatively stagnant, at under 25%.” We know as well, the recycling part of ICI waste has gone down, from 20% to 12% being recycled. They’ve had 10 years. It’s worse. That’s the measurement; that’s the report card. They had a C and now they have a D minus. They basically have failed.

Now, what they’re doing with this bill is really kind of a shell game. The people of Ontario—and I’m speaking directly to you, because this is affecting you. Right at the curbside, you’re going to be paying for what’s in that box when you bought the bottle of Javex or the bottle of soap or whatever; it’s going to be in the price. They’re just hiding the tax so you won’t know what it’s costing you. It’s shameful.

The other day, the Premier talked about openness and transparency. Oh, it saddens me, the duplicity of it all. I don’t want to be too dramatic, but nonetheless I would say that the truth is in the actions that we have heard today. I do believe in the three Rs. We have a plan, and I can tell you the plan has been well developed by Michael Harris and his staff—Shane Buckingham and others, and Rebecca. It says here—I have no time to put those remarks on the record, though.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Questions and comments.

Mr. John Vanthof: Once again, it’s a pleasure to be able to stand up and talk about the waste diversion act, and to comment on some of the comments from the member from Carleton–Mississippi Mills. Again, he also focuses on his riding, on the people in his riding, and I share some—especially with the rural, agricultural part.

He brought up the tire issue, and I don’t think there’s anyone, small business or consumer, who doesn’t want to recycle, and who doesn’t know it has to be paid for somehow. The problem with a lot of these things is that they are unsure of the accountability of these programs and if they are actually getting value for their dollar in these programs.

When the price of recycling for tires for agriculture went very high, it left a feeling of, “Okay, well, where are they getting these numbers from? Are they just picking them out of thin air, or is it actually the cost of doing this?”

I remember when the eco fees came in. I went to my local tractor dealership, and I bought all my—it was the springtime; I bought all my oil filters to change all the oil in my tractors, and there was $48 or $50 tacked on for the eco fees. I said, “Oh, cool. So you mean”—now I’m paying $3 a filter—“when I take the filters off, I can bring them back and they’ll be recycled? I don’t mind, actually, paying the $3 for that.” No, no, no. That money just goes. You still have to take them to the landfill in northern Ontario.

Well, that’s the problem. If we can actually get accountability into this, I don’t mind. I didn’t mind. Maybe I’m different, but I didn’t mind paying a couple of bucks to recycle this oil filter, if it’s actually going to happen. But it hasn’t happened, and that’s what we have to focus on: making it happen.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): The member for Carleton–Mississippi Mills, you have two minutes for a response.

Mr. Jack MacLaren: I would like to thank the members for their comments—from Nickel Belt, the Attorney General, from Durham and from Timiskaming–Cochrane.

It’s a subject we all have a keen interest in, but we don’t need to be taxing people to get them to do the right thing. We need to be going to the private sector and creating a bureaucracy that would encourage them to participate in the marketplace in recycling and getting the financial benefit from the marketplace.

I was at a reception last night, speaking to a man from Lafarge cement. They need fuel to create heat to make cement. They burn coal, because it’s the cheapest. They love taking recycled materials that are flammable, like wood, and they would take tires. A few years ago, they had an approval from the MOE to do tires; the environmental lobby groups got to the Ministry of the Environment, and that ended right away.

That was unfortunate. That was a negative setback for the recycling of garbage, for the positive economic consumption of garbage. Used tires would have been put to a good use. They burn them clean, because they have the technology. That’s the kind of thing we need to be doing. That’s recycling—or recovery, actually; that’s the fourth R that I talked about.

I do believe we need to change our attitudes and take responsibility for garbage. We need to not, as a government, be penalizing with taxes, fees and garbage cops. I think we need to be creating that environment for the private sector to want to recycle, to create an environment where they can take advantage of the marketplace and make a profit from recycling. I don’t think we should be forcing anybody to pay for and be penalized, taxed and fined if they’re not recycling the way the government says they should.

The marketplace will take care of that, and recovery is part of that marketplace, because if we can’t find a way to recycle it, we can burn it and create energy and heat and use it that way.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Further debate?

Mr. Rob Leone: I’m pleased to join the debate. I am quite happy with the kinds of questions, comments and remarks that members of this Legislature have made on Bill 91, the waste diversion act. It’s a very, I think, important debate, because it touches at the—we’re entering the Christmas season, and I know that a lot of retailers in the province of Ontario are in the midst of putting together their displays and their advertisements to entice shoppers to shop in their communities.

I know that certainly the government and all leaders of each party in this Legislature have made a pitch for Ontarians to shop within their neighbourhoods and to buy locally. Certainly the whole campaign Shop the Neighbourhood was launched this week with the intent of getting Ontario consumers to buy things in their local communities.

They know, of course, that big sales are going to be happening with Black Friday in the United States, where items that might be consumed around the holiday season are going to be at a significant discount, and folks from Ontario who do not live too far away from the United States border have a tendency to book shopping trips around that time to take advantage of cheaper products.

Now, Mr. Speaker, when we look at the waste diversion bill, we have to acknowledge that part of what’s going to happen if this bill is instituted is the cost of goods in the province of Ontario will simply be going up. I know that the Premier, earlier this week, suggested that the high dollar was one of the culprits that are enticing Ontario consumers to choose to buy in the United States where products are at a significant discount and the dollar, at near parity, allows them to go to the United States to purchase these items at a lower rate.

Well, I believe, with the institution of the waste diversion act, where we’re removing eco fees on the receipt and placing them in the purchase price—is further going to drive the cost of those products higher, and at the end of the day, it’s going to be a disincentive for Ontario consumers to do the very thing that the leaders of this Legislature are actually desiring, which is for Ontario consumers to buy within their local communities, to support local businesses and to make sure that the money stays within the province of Ontario.

You know, I’m worried that the government seems to be speaking from both sides of its mouth on this issue. On the one hand, they’re saying, “Let’s shop local,” but at the very same time they’re saying to Ontario consumers that we’re going to drive up the cost of goods.

A few examples that I know of have been mentioned earlier in this debate with respect to the cost of things. I know a lot of folks like to purchase electronic items. The cost of eco fees on big-screen televisions, for example, have gone up by more than 40% in the province of Ontario. Now, if we’re talking about trying to entice Ontario consumers to stay within the province of Ontario, they’re going to look at a price differential of 40% and say, “Maybe I’m going to have better luck finding that TV in the United States,” and they’re going to try to shift their shopping elsewhere.

I don’t think that’s the kind of climate we want to create in the province of Ontario, and it’s one of the things I think we need to consider when we’re debating this bill: that we can’t suggest that we want Ontario consumers to stay here and buy goods when the cost differential is so great, and that’s because of the regulations that are going to be put in place by this government simply driving up costs for Ontario consumers. So I have a significant issue with that, Mr. Speaker.

I also question the fact that in Ontario, this bill has been proposed as being part of the Liberal government’s jobs plan. Now, I don’t know how we can claim this to be the case when we’re simply adding a tax to Ontario producers and manufacturers of about half a billion dollars, $500 million, adding to the price of the goods that they’re creating in manufacturing centres right across this province, in my community of Cambridge, in Hamilton, London, even in smaller areas. This is going to mean the cost of goods is going up, which is going to mean, again, that fewer goods are going to be sold, fewer products are going to be made, and fewer jobs are going to be realized.

So I have significant questions with the essence of this being part of the Liberal government’s jobs plan. Certainly I know members of this Legislature recently met with folks from their community newspapers. We have community newspapers right across the province of Ontario—I have a couple in my riding, the Cambridge Times and Ayr News—that will be significantly impacted by this piece of legislation. It’s going to drive their costs up astronomically.

I know in areas like Timiskaming–Cochrane, Kenora–Rainy River and other parts of this province where community newspapers are the bread and butter of how the local residents get their news, these community newspapers are going to be significantly impacted by this piece of legislation.

Jobs are going to be affected, and we have to say that the labour market in the media is very tight as it is. We’re going to be asking for further reductions in jobs potentially in our community newspapers as a result of this piece of legislation. So we have to be concerned about the consequences of legislation like this because of what may be unintended from its initial onset.

In the remaining time that I have, Mr. Speaker, I want to talk a bit about why this piece of legislation, in my view, has been proposed. Certainly from the perspective of myself, it’s trying to hide, in many ways, the Liberal failure to improve recycling in the province of Ontario.

I know that the member from Durham was stating some statistics. We have had, since 2008, a promise to have a 60% waste diversion rate in the province of Ontario. Five years later, in 2013, that rate is still stalled at just 23%. We are significantly below our targets with respect to waste diversion, and that’s a serious consideration and a serious concern. I think all members of the Legislature would love to see more waste diverted, but obviously what the government is doing hasn’t worked, and there’s no way of knowing that this is actually going to improve under this piece of legislation.

The industrial, commercial and institutional sector, the ICI sector, accounts for 60% of Ontario’s waste, yet in that sector the Liberals allowed recycling to decrease from 19% to 12%. I think the member from Durham was making that comment. It’s a concern because we want to do our best to divert waste. We want to make sure that we are encouraging our businesses to do that, but, by adding a layer of bureaucracy, there’s no way of knowing whether that’s actually going to have any effect whatsoever.

Instead of showing leadership in waste diversion, the Liberals have spent all their time running massive eco tax schemes on tires, electronics and household hazardous materials, which, together, only make up 3% of the province’s waste. Consumers have invested considerable amounts of money trying to reduce waste, and it’s simply not working.

I want to also commend the member from Kitchener–Conestoga, who has done lots of work in this regard and on this bill. He has laid out a bold plan. He talks about it. I think he created it last November. Last November—so the government knows—while they were prorogued and not conducting business, I know that PC caucus members, like the member for Kitchener–Conestoga, were busy talking about ideas to get Ontario back on track.

We would start by scrapping the Liberal eco tax programs and eliminating the government’s useless recycling bureaucracy. We believe businesses should do their part to recover recycled products into new products, but rather than create complicated bureaucracy and massive new costs for consumers, we would simply create the right conditions for economic growth.

We would do this by having the environment ministry set measurable and achievable recycling targets of certain materials, establish environmental standards, measure outcomes, and enforce the rules. That’s it. Enforcing the rules obviously is very important, and they simply aren’t being enforced as they are today. Having the Ministry of the Environment regulate the recycling industry would establish a direct line of accountability between the government and businesses.

I know the member from Timiskaming–Cochrane already talked about how setting up another board, another agency, to remove accountability from this government is a concern that I also agree with.

So, Mr. Speaker, there are lots of things we could be doing to aid in trying to get further waste diverted from our landfill. I would love to have the opportunity to further elaborate on those items, but again, I think this waste diversion act takes us down a path we simply don’t want to go.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Questions and comments?

Mr. John Vanthof: Once again, it’s a pleasure to be able to stand up and make some comments on the member for Cambridge. We disagree on a lot of things, but we—

Mrs. Jane McKenna: Be positive.

Mr. John Vanthof: No, no. We disagree on a lot of things, but we have some great conversations about our respective areas.

Mr. Rob Leone: And I’m the only one who gives you applause.

Mr. John Vanthof: I’m not going to go there.

We do share some views on this act, and I’d like to amplify them a bit. He brought up the part about community newspapers. My community newspaper in Timiskaming is one of the most important venues to find out what’s going on in the central part of my riding, and they brought up an important point. I think when and if this bill goes to committee, it’s things like that that we have to find out and fix. That’s the part about sending a bill to committee, that we can actually make it work.

Overall, the biggest issue, I think, that we all have with not just this bill but with a lot of legislation is accountability. When you create the waste management authority, it sounds very authoritative. It sounds like we are doing the job. But in my business we say, “Where’s the beef?” Well, where’s the proof? It goes to the core of what we have to find out in committee: How can we make this move from sounding good to being actually accountable? It has been a huge problem, it continues to be a huge problem with this government and it will continue to be a problem. That’s one that we have to really drill down to.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Questions and comments?

Hon. James J. Bradley: Mr. Speaker, I want to say that very widespread consultation took place before this bill was presented to the Legislative Assembly, including consultation with both of the critics in the opposition and widely within industry, with environmental groups and so on. It really represents as much of a consensus as you’re going to find on this specific issue. One thing they said—and I don’t say this in a partisan sense—was that the Waste Diversion Act of 2002 simply had to be replaced.

We looked at a number of other options, and they said, “No, you really have to replace that, because the provisions of it allow people to avoid recycling and reusing products the way they might.” So there was quite a consensus there.

I keep thinking of the question: So who, then, does pay for it? I hear people say the producers shouldn’t be responsible financially for the ultimate disposal, or, in this case, diversion from disposal, of the product they produce. Well, if they don’t have responsibility for it, who does? Is it the grateful taxpayer at the local level, the municipal property taxpayer who has to foot the bill? Who is it? I consider, and I think most people do, that it’s part of a cost of doing business, so everything is reflected ultimately in the price.

In terms of jobs being produced, seven jobs are produced in recycling for every one job in disposal. I’m amazed—and the member may be aware, because I think there’s a recycling firm in his area —at some rather substantial diversion taking place, the kind of recycling that’s taking place that I would never have believed would be possible before. A lot of jobs are being created, and we’re achieving the kind of diversion that we’d like to see. We want to make more progress. We believe this bill, after it gets to committee, will ensure that progress takes place.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Questions and comments?

Mrs. Julia Munro: I just want to congratulate the member from Cambridge on widening the basis of this conversation on Bill 91. I think the reason for that is all of us recognize that, regardless of our view of this bill, this is only a small sliver of the huge problem that we’re dealing with in our communities today.

I think back on when I have been door-knocking in neighbourhoods, and I’m sure that everyone who has done any will agree with me that, first of all, you see about one or two garages out of every 10 that has a car in it; the rest of them all have discarded toys and things like that. When I see those piles—and sometimes it literally is just piles of stuff that has been discarded and not taken to the curb for not knowing what to do with them—it’s kind of a microcosm of what we face as a community at large.

So my concern about this piece of legislation—I think this was brought forward by the member from Cambridge—is the fact that there is a lot more to do. There is a lot more education and there is a lot more opportunity for innovation than this bill allows for.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Questions and comments.

M me France Gélinas: It’s my pleasure to add my two cents to the comments that were made by the member from Cambridge. Here again we see that everybody in this House is in agreement that more needs to be done, and is in agreement that our province would be better off if we were to do recycling, if we were to reuse and if we were to make sure that we practice the three Rs no matter where we are. Whenever you introduce a change, there will be good things that will come of it, but there could be hardship put on some of our industries.

It’s really to find a path forward that will make sure that the prosperity that we want for our province, the prosperity that all of us want to share in, has an opportunity to continue while we bring those new programs on stream.

I have no doubt that we will succeed. I have no doubt that we will find a path that will make sure that industries like newsprint will have an opportunity to continue to flourish, be profitable and create jobs, while at the same time aiming for the goals that we all want: that we protect our environment, that we don’t produce any more garbage than we need to and that we support, in the way of doing business, what makes the most sense for the environment.

We all have the same gut reaction when we get to a store and we see this great big package for a USB key that big. Why are they doing this? Nobody knows. I guess it’s because they’re afraid of having it stolen or whatever, but at the end of the day we all have the same gut reaction: Why are they doing this? I don’t need such a big package to buy a USB key that is half an inch by three inches tall but that comes in a box that is a thousand times its size. We have to put our heads together to find the right balance.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): The member for Cambridge, you have two minutes for a reply.

Mr. Rob Leone: I would like to begin by thanking the member from Timiskaming–Cochrane, the Minister of the Environment, the member for York–Simcoe and the member for Nickel Belt for providing their questions and comments on what I had discussed earlier today.

I do want to make special note that I do have a recycling firm in my riding of Cambridge. Greentec does a great job of obtaining materials, taking them and repackaging them. They take computer screens and computer monitors, and they have old TVs; they have a way of recycling the glass and the plastic from that, and they have a market for it. They are doing that on that basis. They were doing this prior to the introduction of the Waste Diversion Act. I’ve toured that facility, and it’s a very interesting business that has been created there.

The Minister of the Environment did state that seven jobs are created in recycling for every one in diversion. It’s an interesting comment, and I would love to know the statistics on that. If he could provide a breakdown, I would be very interested in that.

I would also say that part of this act is creating a new layer of bureaucracy, and I would hate to see that part of the seven jobs that we are doing here and implementing here are part of a new bureaucracy of waste diversion. While it might create jobs in recycling, they’re going to kill jobs in the private sector, in our factories and so on and so forth. I’d like to see the Minister of the Environment’s statistics on that, and he’s very interested in providing that; he’s looking through his notes right now. Maybe I’ll have a piece of paper flown my way in the very short future.

I want to thank all members of the Legislature for indulging me this morning, and I look forward to the debate.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Further debate?

Mrs. Julia Munro: I stand in my place today against this government and against one of their latest tax-and-spend schemes, Bill 91, the Waste Reduction Act.

Stewardship of the environment is a very important concern of government. If we are not responsible and balanced stewards of our environment, our land, our resources, our energy, our air and our water, we as a society become unsustainable. We will not do well if we don’t make the right choices.

Dealing with our waste appropriately is a major part of how we treat our environment. Government has a core duty to ensure the environment is healthy for future generations. Our quality of life is directly linked to our environment. Similarly, the quality of our environment is directly linked to the quality of our government. Ontario is a beautiful, bountiful place, hardly matched in the world for its quality of life and opportunity. I wish I could be as complimentary regarding its current government, which has been in power for 10 years now.

Ostensibly, Bill 91 is about stewardship of the environment, using our resources better by recognizing the value in discarded materials and waste products so that they don’t end up in a hole in the ground. Unfortunately, that is a fiction. Bill 91 does nothing of the sort. It only perpetuates this Liberal government’s abysmal record on this important issue. Bill 91 provides a way to trick the public, further distort our free market and take advantage of taxing captive consumers and businesses. This bill is about diversion, but not of waste from landfill. It’s about diverting attention from the government’s record and its failure on waste diversion in Ontario.

One of the things that I think is important to add in this conversation is that diversion has to include a variety of methods. Some speakers have spoken about the importance of incineration, and I know that energy from waste is not a new concept. People in this province were bringing it forward at least 20, almost 30 years ago, and looking around the world and taking the best technology of the time. There was a great deal of information and opportunity in terms of the expertise that was right here in southern Ontario on providing opportunities for deriving energy from waste.

There have been projects around the world. I know certainly in Prince Edward Island they have worked for many, many decades using the energy from waste. One of the previous speakers also mentioned the Durham example. I should just editorially say it’s also with York region; York region and Durham came to an agreement several years ago, and we are seeing the fruition of that agreement with the incineration going to be conducted in Durham.

Before I go on, I would like to say congratulations to my caucus colleague the member for Kitchener–Conestoga, who is the PC critic for the Ministry of the Environment, for his work on this file. His ability to discuss solutions for environmental problems with all stakeholders and get past the roadblocks to build a plan has certainly impressed me, as does his faith in the free market. Government must get out of the way most of the time, and he understands that.

On the other hand, it’s really too bad that the Minister of the Environment does not get it. As seen in Bill 91, and in Bill 6, for that matter, he has failed to come forward with legislation that matters. The sheen and the sell of the bills seem to matter, but when one reads the bill for substance, it never materializes.

Earlier I referred to the Liberals’ dismal record on increasing waste diversion. This government has made no progress on increasing the rate of waste diverted from landfill. Today’s overall diversion rate in Ontario is 23%,

whereas the goal since 2008 has been 60%. Only one quarter of garbage does not go into landfill. The other three quarters does. That’s not including industrial, commercial and institutional—or ICI—waste, which makes up 60% of the waste in the province. When you look at those figures, it’s easy to gloss over them, until you stop and think about what it means to have a diversion rate of 23% when the goal is 60%, and the fact that it doesn’t include the industrial, commercial and institutional.

In my case, in my own constituency office I keep wanting to have a blue box and be able to separate what would be non-blue box material. Of course, my staff keep reminding me that no, we’re in a commercial setting and that doesn’t exist. It just seems so frustrating that at this point in time, when, obviously, the greater amount of waste comes from ICI, that we have fallen behind and, in fact, just failed to provide this.

For the last five years, the government has been focused on eco taxes to recover the cost of recycling certain materials. New taxes were put on tires, electronics and household hazardous materials, which together only make up 3% of the waste stream in Ontario. One of the problems with doing something like that is that people are willing to pay a fee if they think it’s reasonable and if they think it’s fair, but as soon as it appears to be gouging or it appears to be unfair, then they are going to choose ways to avoid—I stress “avoid”—the effect of that tax. They’re going to look for ways to avoid it. That’s legal, as opposed to “evade.”

In terms of the announcement last year about tires, what was the immediate reaction in my community, where tractor tires, for instance, were going to fall under this? The reaction of people was, “I’ll find another place.” I realize that changes were made; I’m not suggesting they weren’t. But it’s a demonstration of being able to accurately gauge what’s fair, what’s reasonable, what people will be able to manage, and this was a demonstration of one that people couldn’t manage.

People have mentioned the tractor tire tax going from $92 to over $800. As I started to say, in my neighbourhood that immediately brought a response from those potential purchasers: They would all go to Quebec; they would find a way to bring tires back. That just destroys the whole idea, because now those tires ultimately will end up having to be recycled through an Ontario program that, of course, wasn’t paid for at the point of purchase.

We have a lot of issues with regard to the questions that are raised by Bill 91. It seems to me that this bill leaves aside trying to answer some of the very big questions that will remain in place.

We see, for instance, that Waste Diversion Ontario is proposed to be now called the Waste Reduction Authority. That reminds me of the joke about changing the deck chairs on the Titanic. It does nothing to give us confidence.

The fact that the bill proposes a new waste czar registrar, deputies, inspectors, waste enforcement officers and tribunal members: All of this suggests that we’re not really looking at anything that is going to be in long-term best interests.

Ontario used to be a leader in the world for its waste diversion programs, just as Ontario used to be an economic leader among the provinces of Canada. We look at Bill 91 and see that the opportunity is a lost one in Bill 91.

Second reading debate deemed adjourned.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): This House stands recessed until 10:30.

The House recessed from 1015 to 1030.

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

Hon. Reza Moridi: It’s my pleasure to introduce Andrew Morrison-Gurza and his mother, Sher St. Kitts, sitting in the Speaker’s gallery. They’re from Richmond Hill. Andrew has recently graduated from Carleton University in disability and the law, and he works to raise awareness about issues facing people with disabilities.

Mr. Speaker, please join me in welcoming Andrew and his mother, Sher St. Kitts.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Welcome. Thank you.

Mr. Steven Del Duca: It’s a pleasure for me to rise in my place today and recognize that there are two grade 10 classes from St. Joan of Arc high school in my riding, in the community of Maple. I believe that they are assembling in both galleries at this moment. I had the chance to speak to them, Speaker. I just wanted to welcome them to Queen’s Park, and I hope they have a great tour.

Hon. Glen R. Murray: It’s a great pleasure to introduce my friend James St. John, who is very active with the trades council and a great supporter of Hammer Heads, I know, an organization that supports young people and is near and dear to the hearts of many members here in the House.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): On behalf of the member from Nickel Belt, we have with us, to visit and observe Jack Derrenbacker, our page, his grandparents Bob and Joan Derrenbacker. We’re glad they’re here visiting in the gallery. Welcome.

ORAL QUESTIONS

POWER PLANTS

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): It is now time for question period. The member from Nepean–Carleton.

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: Thanks very much, Speaker. I appreciate the opportunity today.

My question is for the Premier. For weeks I have been requesting that you tell the ratepayers how much they are paying on their electricity bills because of the cancelled gas plants, and you keep refusing. I’ve been asking here in this chamber for two weeks.

Yet today, Dwight Duncan, the former Deputy Premier, the former Minister of Energy, the former finance minister, told the justice committee that these types of analyses would be done. In fact, he said the “government would routinely look at the impact aspect.”

For someone who has such a passion for “open government,” you sure fail in spelling and actually practising it, Premier. One of the most powerful colleagues that you have ever served with told this assembly, through the justice committee, that you would have had that information at your disposal.

Why won’t you adhere to open government and finally release how much individual ratepayers are going to be on the hook for the cancelled gas plants?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please.

Stop the clock.

Premier?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I haven’t seen the transcript from the committee this morning. I know the government House leader or the Minister of Energy will want to speak to the specifics. But I will just say that I have said all along that cabinet made decisions, government had information, and that information has been made available to the committee.

Tens of thousands of documents have been handed over to the committee. Questions have been answered. We broadened the scope of the committee. I appeared before the committee. That information has been made available.

I look forward to the supplementary.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: Thank you, Premier, for again showing that you care not about open governments, that you only care about photo ops. But I wish you knew how to spell “government”; it’s very important to the people.

You have known the true cost or at least the true range of the cancelled Oakville plants since 2011. Don’t take my word for it; take Serge Imbrogno’s, the Deputy Minister of Energy, who said that in December 2011 you knew the cost would exceed $700 million. All the while, you and your colleagues said it was only $33 million to $40 million. You want to know why, Speaker? They wanted to rely on the province of Ontario and the people within it, the ratepayers who pay the bills—they wanted to rely on a distinction between taxpayer and ratepayer. It’s absolutely despicable that she did this, and I have other words that would be unparliamentary.

You now know it costs $1.1 billion. You know how much it costs the ratepayers. Will you table that today or will you get the Auditor General—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. Be seated, please.

Premier?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I really believe that it is important that we have gone through this process. When I came into this office, I said that it was important to me that we open up the process, that we make sure that the information was available. The reason that the justice committee has had the opportunity to hear from the witnesses and has received the documentation is that we changed the process on this side of the House and we opened up the process.

I asked the Auditor General to look at the Oakville situation. The information that has been made available has been made available because of our commitment to that openness. I said that the questions that were being asked by the opposition would be answered. They have been answered; they have the information. That’s as it should be. What is really important now is that we have a better process in place so that this will not happen again, and it would be great to have a report from the committee.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Final supplementary.

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: Again, back to the Premier: There are pretzels that are less twisted than your account of this story over the power plants.

Going back to the open government: You told this assembly on multiple occasions that, as a cabinet minister, you never discussed the cancelled Mississauga plant in a cabinet meeting. But Dwight Duncan, your colleague, who sat in the chair right beside your current finance minister, told our committee today that yes, it was actually discussed. He said that the Mississauga plant was discussed in cabinet.

For a Premier who likes to talk about conversations with the public, you sure do have lots of things you like to keep from them, too. Telling this House one thing when it is not true is contemptible. Again—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I’m going to ask the member to withdraw and be careful of how she’s wording.

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: Thanks. Withdrawn, Speaker.

Again, which is it? We know you sat in the cabinet, and we know you signed the cabinet document. You did so knowingly. You did so, knowing that there was going to be a significant cost to this. You signed your name on the dotted line. Why did you do it and why—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you.

Hon. James J. Bradley: Thank you, John Baird Junior.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The Minister of the Environment will come to order.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The other members who are making the comments will allow me to do my job.

The member from Nepean–Carleton will withdraw.

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: Withdrawn.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I’m going to indicate to her that if it continues, it’s more than just simply once, it’s too many times, and I will bypass her and ask her to withdraw. That’s it.

Premier?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Minister of Energy.

Hon. Bob Chiarelli: Yes, former finance minister Dwight Duncan was at committee. Let’s hear some of the other things that he said. He said that those decisions were made by the former finance minister, the former Premier and the former Minister of Energy, full stop. He also said the decision on a cabinet document was made by the former Premier and former finance minister.

With respect to the rates, the member would know, when she received her briefing on how to be the energy critic, that rates are set by the Ontario Energy Board in a very public and open way. I want to know whether or not she has investigated how the rates are set at the OEB. In addition, there’s a long-term energy plan that projects rate increases over a 20-year period. The existing plan projects increases at 3.5% over a 20-year period, which is less than the previous government’s 20-year period.

PUBLIC TRANSIT

Mr. Frank Klees: My question is to the Premier. Yesterday I asked the Premier about the $770-million Bombardier contract that was signed under her watch as transportation minister. She refused to answer any questions regarding that contract. The contract committed the province, through Metrolinx, to purchase 182 LRT vehicles for four projects in the city of Toronto. That contract also set out very specific delivery dates and substantial penalties if those dates were not honoured.

My question for the Premier today is this: Before she signed off on that contract—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Minister of the Environment, come to order, for the last time.

Mr. Frank Klees: —did she inform herself of the details of that contract? Was she aware that it contains specific delivery dates and penalty clauses, and did she know that she was putting millions of tax dollars at risk by signing off on that contract?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I know the Minister of Transportation has some specifics on this issue and he will answer the supplementary, but I want to just say that I am absolutely proud of the fact that we have vehicles being built by Bombardier in Thunder Bay to supply the transit build that is happening across the GTHA. I am very proud of the billions of dollars that we are investing in transit. Part of the reason that we are doing that is that we have to catch up on transit-building in this province because there were years of neglect where there was no investment in transit, where congestion was allowed to increase, and we know the economic toll that that has taken, and takes every year.

I’m proud of our record in terms of investing in transit. We will continue to do that. I appreciate that all of a sudden the party opposite is interested in transit, but it’s a little bit late.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Frank Klees: The Premier is proud that LRT vehicles are being built in Thunder Bay that have nowhere to go. This is not a good example of the Premier’s response of transparency and open government.

The current Minister of Transportation proved yesterday that he knows nothing about this file. It was the Premier who signed off on the contract. The cost of that contract, because it was a sole-sourced contract, was inflated by more than $200 million. Now, because Metrolinx is stuck with those cars, here’s what they’re doing: They’re forcing municipalities like the region of Waterloo to buy those cars, forcing them to bypass an open tendering process so they can off-load those vehicles onto the citizens of Waterloo region and others.

I’m asking the Premier this question: Will she table that contract so that we can see the full cost of penalties to the people—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. Stop the clock. Towards the end of the question I was having difficulty hearing the member from Newmarket–Aurora because someone on his own side was yelling too much.

Premier.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure.

Hon. Glen R. Murray: I don’t know what the member opposite is talking about.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Order, please. Now I will point out individuals. The member from Leeds–Grenville will come to order. That’s one.

Carry on.

Hon. Glen R. Murray: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

You know, if you don’t want to use a BlackBerry or email, a good old-fashioned telephone to Metrolinx works really well.

I don’t know what the fantasy is that he’s constructing, but the only payment that has been put out recently was a $65-million progress payment to Bombardier. Metrolinx very astutely and very wisely has bundled all of our LRT purchases, whether it’s for the Kitchener-Waterloo line or for the Eglinton line, and very wisely uses the buying power of all of these municipalities together to do progressive purchases of equipment. There is nothing wrong; as a matter of fact, we’re getting significant savings and these contracts are working—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. Final supplementary.

Mr. Frank Klees: Well, the minister confirmed that he knows nothing about this file. The reality is that a contract has been signed. There are penalty clauses for failing to take delivery on the specified date of delivery. He can try to waffle on this as much as he wants.

The Premier wants transparency. Why don’t we start with this file? First, the Premier signed off on a sole-sourced contract that inflated the cost of those vehicles by more than $200 million. Second, because there were no competitive bids, they are now stuck with it, and the projects that they were intended for have not appeared. That’s why they are stuck.

So now one of those consequences is they’re trying to off-load those vehicles onto municipalities like the region of Waterloo. They told the region of Waterloo they could not go to open tendering, because they were forcing them to take these cars.

I want to ask the Premier this: Will she stop downloading her mistakes onto municipalities across—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Stop the clock.

Be seated, please. Be seated, please. Thank you.

Minister.

Hon. Glen R. Murray: Mr. Speaker, what I said very carefully is, I don’t know what the member is talking about, because I can’t find any evidence to—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Stop the clock.

I know you’ve done it, but I’m going to ask it: Will the member withdraw, please?

Mr. John Yakabuski: Again, I’ll withdraw.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): And the member from Renfrew will come to order.

Minister.

Hon. Glen R. Murray: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Quite frankly, I have a good relationship with Ken Seiling and Rob Prichard and Bruce McCuaig, who I speak to on a regular basis. No one has raised any concern about this, so I don’t know who’s raising concerns with the member opposite, Mr. Speaker.

We use the purchasing power of large municipalities, which means that the Toronto area and Mississauga have a lot of capacity to buy a lot of vehicles. So we buy them and we share them. We have agreements with Kitchener-Waterloo. There are hundreds of vehicles being bought. As I’ve said many times, we’re also buying subway technology.

The member from Barrie would know. His community is a major recipient of those contracts because the tunnels are there. And, yes, they get shifted, and with 15 projects, the timing changes—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. New question.

NUCLEAR ENERGY

Ms. Andrea Horwath: My question is for the Premier. Ontarians paying the highest electricity bills in Canada have some serious questions about how their Liberal government makes decisions that hit their hydro bills.

Can the Premier confirm today news reports that she attended a $10,000-a-plate fundraiser organized by private nuclear operator Bruce Power just days before the government made key decisions about Ontario’s energy future?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: If the leader of the third party is asking whether I—as she and the leader of the Conservatives do—fundraise, yes. I attend fundraising events. I attend fundraising events with many, many people. There is access across the political spectrum. It’s part of the democratic process. One of the things that I always say at fundraisers is I thank people for taking

part in that part of the democratic process.

The fundraiser to which the leader of the third party refers was completely unrelated to a decision around new nuclear, Mr. Speaker.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Ms. Andrea Horwath: Speaker, can the Premier tell us who attended and whether she discussed with any of the attendees the government’s pending decision on—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Stop the clock.

The members on this side will come to order.

Do you need to repeat?

Ms. Andrea Horwath: I’ll repeat it. Thanks, Speaker.

Can the Premier tell us who attended and whether she discussed with any of the attendees the government’s pending decisions on nuclear power?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: The leader of the third party knows full well that all of the information about the amounts and the people who have donated—those pieces of information are posted once the cheques have been processed.

Hon. Deborah Matthews: We brought in that.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: We brought in that process, Mr. Speaker. We made it mandatory for that information to be made available.

So, Mr. Speaker, as the leader of the third party does and as the Leader of the Opposition does, we all take

part in fundraising events. It’s part of the process. It takes money to make political parties able to function, and that applies to all parties. The conversations that happen at those fundraisers are wide-ranging. I think the Minister of Energy described it as brainstorming. That happens at events across the province, with a wide range of organizations and individuals.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Final supplementary.

Ms. Andrea Horwath: For nearly a decade, the government ignored the evidence that new nuclear plants would be expensive and unnecessary. In fact, the government plowed ahead and spent $180 million on plans that were doomed. For years, they could not be persuaded to see common sense. But now people see that private interests with a lot riding on this decision were able to get access to the Premier, and lo and behold the Liberals changed a policy that they had held for years.

Will the Premier admit that at the very least this doesn’t look very good?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Bruce Power has donated to the NDP and to the PCs this year. The fact is that organizations donate to all the parties. They’re in conversation with all of us, because it is part of the political process.

The fact is that planning in the energy sector is extremely important. The leader of the third party—I don’t know if she has looked at the energy plans that we have put in place. I don’t know how closely she has looked at the changes in supply. I don’t know if she recognizes that it’s very important to understand what the projections are as you make plans going forward. The work that has been done in order to prepare for a possible new build is work that will not go to waste; it’s information that is needed that may be used in the future, and we are being responsible in responding to the current situation.

ENERGY POLICIES

Ms. Andrea Horwath: My next question is to the Premier. Ontario households and businesses are paying the highest electricity bills in the country, and they are tired of paying for decisions that have more to do with the Liberal Party’s interests than the public interest: $1.1 billion for cancelled private power plants in Oakville and Mississauga, $180 million on doomed nuclear plans, $950 million on nuclear refurbishment planning on contracts that they’ve signed without knowing what the final price tag is going to be for those plans and decisions being made behind closed doors. Does the Premier think this is a good way to run an electricity system in the province of Ontario?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I’m just going to go over some of the things that we have done to stabilize the energy system in the province, because if you remember, Mr. Speaker, when we came into office, there was a fair degree of disarray in terms of energy in this province. We’ve invested in modernizing and rebuilding approximately 12,000 megawatts of new, cleaner power for Ontario. We don’t have an energy deficit any longer. We don’t need to worry about the constant threat of brownouts. We’ve invested over $10 billion in improvements in Hydro One systems, including upgrades to over 7,500 kilometres of power lines—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from—well, never mind. Just relax.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Mr. Speaker, that transmission network is so important to the health of the energy system. So that investment in 7,500 kilometres of power lines is critical to the stability of the system.

Our green energy strategy has attracted $24 billion in private sector investment, and it has created over 31,000 jobs. Ontario has 2,700 clean tech firms and employs 65,000 people in the clean tech sector.

We have taken action on energy. We have a much more stable system than when we came into office, Mr. Speaker. That’s what planning does for you, and we will continue to act in that responsible manner.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Ms. Andrea Horwath: Speaker, people accept that mistakes happen, but what they don’t accept is making the same mistake over and over and over again. The Premier says wasting $1.1 billion was a mistake. But she’s signing contracts that are putting Ontarians on the hook for almost $1 billion, and she has no idea where the money stops. The Premier says she’ll be open and transparent, but people see decisions being made behind closed doors that drive electricity prices through the roof.

Why hasn’t the Premier learned that people should come first?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Minister of Energy.

Hon. Bob Chiarelli: Expenditures to date on nuclear refurbishment are for definition-phase activities such as the establishment of the project organization, scope finalization, engineering, planning, procurement and contracting. The idea that this is secret and nobody knows about it is a pile of bunk. All of OPG’s expenditures—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Eglinton–Lawrence and the member from Hamilton East–Stoney Creek, take it outside.

Hon. Bob Chiarelli: Speaker, all of OPG’s expenditures related to nuclear refurbishment are reviewed by the independent Ontario Energy Board as part of the rate-setting process. It’s all public information. OPG is taking significant steps to ensure the refurbishment at Darlington is done right, including a staged approach to refurbishment. We have selected an independent oversight adviser for the Darlington refurbishment project through an open, competitive RFP process. This adviser will provide regular updates on the progress of the Darlington nuclear refurbishment to the Ministry of Energy. This will include—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please.

Final supplementary.

Ms. Andrea Horwath: We know the Premier has wasted $1.1 billion on gas plant relocations. We have been told that $180 million was wasted on plans for nuclear plants, but no one knows what the real cost is because the Premier is refusing to call in the auditor. And the Premier has signed contracts worth almost $1 billion without any idea how high the final price tag will be in the future.

That’s the past, that’s the present, and that’s the future. How can the Premier say that she has learned anything at all?

Hon. Bob Chiarelli: I just wonder whether or not the leader of the third party is being a little bit glib about this issue. Yesterday, she referred to nuclear refurbishment as when you go out to buy a new car. We’re talking about a $15-billion project. You need a lot of due diligence, and that due diligence is being done. First of all, all of the contracts to date have been subject to Ontario Energy Board—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): If the member from Hamilton East–Stoney Creek didn’t get the message the first time, he’ll get it now. If you can tell, I’m not in a happy place at this moment. So if anyone wants to test, you’ll lose.

Hon. Bob Chiarelli: All of these costs have been subject to review by the public, independent Ontario Energy Board. In addition, as I’ve said, we have an independent oversight adviser who is providing regular reports on this. We have to do an environmental assessment. We have to do project consideration. We have to do procurement consideration. On a $15-billion project, I defy the leader of the third party to suggest how you can go into it cold, without the necessary—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. New question.

PAN AM GAMES

Mr. Rod Jackson: My question is to the minister responsible for the Pan Am Games. We know for a fact, Minister, that a fraction of the $235 million for the essential services budget is not the complete security budget. We’ve heard security figures actually too plentiful to list here today. Then, one of your security staff has subsequently confirmed that the mystery budget has been well overblown.

So Minister, today, I want to know exactly what the budget is for all Pan Am-related security costs and if they’re included in the $1.4-billion Pan Am budget. Minister, be open, be transparent with the Ontario public—just the numbers, not your roundabout spin, not your generic talking points. Give me the goods.

Hon. Michael Chan: Thank you very much for the question. Recently, we heard a lot of numbers from the opposition members. They talk about the athletes’ village, $700 million not allocated in the $1.4-billion TO2015 budget. He turns around and he seems to be surprised that it’s not in there, and then a few days later he will turn around and talk to the public that, “You know what? I know that allocation, that $700 million, was not in the TO2015 budget for over two years.”

I’ll give you another example here, Speaker. He talked about the security. He keeps saying that the Pan Am Games security will be about $1 billion, and then he will turn around, “You know what? That $1 billion may not be $1 billion.”

So, Speaker, what we’ve been—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Durham will come to order.

Supplementary?

Mr. Rod Jackson: All right, another game of Ring Around the Rosie here. I’m not sure if you don’t know, Minister, or you just don’t want me to know. I’m trying to figure that part out. Perhaps the minister is too busy cooking the books on the Pan Am Games to actually manage his portfolio.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member will withdraw.

Mr. Rod Jackson: Withdrawn.

The current security budget is shrouded in mystery, and the transportation plan is a security risk. Adding 350 buses and 1,000 cars to the most congested routes in Toronto and, indeed, Canada, to transport 7,000-plus athletes is ridiculous at best, and yet we don’t have a plan and we don’t have a budget for transportation either—not one you’re willing to share with us, anyway, Minister. Your portfolio is characterized by runaway spending and poor planning.

Minister, what is the exact number for the Pan Am security and the total transportation costs, and are these on your Pan Am books? Yes or no? It’s a simple question; give me the goods.

Hon. Michael Chan: Thank you again for the question. Again, the member talks about our numbers—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Attorney General, come to order.

Hon. Michael Chan: —and the numbers he talked about were wrong.

The Pan Am Games is a big game; it’s a complex game. We’re going to welcome 41 countries to Ontario. We’re going to attract 250,000 tourists to Toronto and Ontario. It would generate $3.7 billion to our economy.

Speaker, come 2015, Ontario will welcome the competitors, the coaches—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Answer.

Hon. Michael Chan: —totalling about 10,000 people. These are complex games. The ministry is working very hard to come up with those numbers.

LOBBYISTS

Ms. Cindy Forster: My question is to the Premier. Whether it’s Alfred Apps, the former president of the Liberal Party, lobbying under the table, or the Premier refusing to say whether well-connected lobbyists from EllisDon lobbied her, or the Premier participating in a $100,000 fundraiser held by Bruce nuclear days before the—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Stop the clock. Order.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Start the clock.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): No, no. I’m still standing, but there’s talking going on.

Carry on.

Ms. Cindy Forster: —or the Premier participating in a $100,000 fundraiser held by Bruce nuclear days before the government made a major decision impacting the nuclear industry, people are concerned about well-connected Liberal lobbyists getting special treatment.

My private member’s bill today will open up lobbying to greater transparency. Does the Premier agree that it’s time to open up lobbying and create more transparency?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Minister of Government Services.

Hon. John Milloy: I’m very aware of the honourable member’s private member’s bill, and I look forward to the debate this afternoon. I’m also aware that the Integrity Commissioner, an officer of this Legislature, who is also responsible for lobbyists, has herself talked about some changes to the Lobbyists Registration Act.

As members are aware, there were changes that were brought forward that did not proceed because of prorogation. Right now, we’re studying that report and studying potential changes to strengthen it. We do have a good system here in the province of Ontario, but certainly we’re open to discussions of how it could be strengthened. As I say, I look forward to the debate this afternoon.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Ms. Cindy Forster: My private member’s bill will bring greater transparency to lobbying in Ontario. While other parties talk about openness, only New Democrats are taking steps to make government more transparent. My bill will close loopholes so that all lobbyists are registered. My bill will mean that lobbying activities are made public so Ontarians know who is lobbying whom, and it will make sure there are real punishments for people who break the rules.

The Premier says she believes it’s time for more openness. New Democrats are ready to deliver results. Will the Premier follow the NDP’s lead?

Hon. John Milloy: Mr. Speaker, I kind of think we’ve reached our limit here. I think on all sides of the House we recognize the role that lobbyists play and the fact that we need oversight, but the holier-than-thou attitude over there is a little bit rich—because let me tell you about a wonderful event that happened on October 16 at the Royal Conservatory of Music. It was called the Leader’s Gala:

“Yes, we will be attending the Leader’s Gala.

“We will celebrate with Ontario New Democrats at the Leader’s Gala by purchasing the following sponsorship package”—my friends, for only $9,500, you can be a member of the Leader’s Circle. But, hey, if that’s a little too rich, for $7,500, you could join the Queen’s Park Circle. Or for those of you a little down on your luck, for $4,500, you could be at the counsel level. You can pay by cheque, Visa and MasterCard, all payable to the Ontario—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Stop the clock. Be seated, please.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Order. I’m still not in a happy place.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. I’m not getting attention so that I can quiet things down for others to interject, and I suspect you’re getting the message that I’m not happy at this moment.

New question.

TEACHERS’ COLLECTIVE BARGAINING

Mr. Kevin Daniel Flynn: My question this morning is to the Minister of Education. Minister, this week you introduced legislation that provides a clear role for government in labour negotiations in the education sector, while continuing to respect the collective bargaining process. I know our government has worked hard to rebuild the relationship with our partners in education, and I’m pleased that we’re working towards a much better future together, and that’s going to continue to improve student success.

We all know that one way to avoid labour disruption is to ensure a process exists that encourages collaborative and ongoing discussions that resolve common concerns. Minister, would you share with this House this morning the process you took in developing this framework, how you engaged our partners in the education sector in the development of this important legislation?

Hon. Liz Sandals: Thank you to the member from Oakville for this important question.

Speaker, when I was first appointed Minister of Education, my first priority was to rebuild relationships with our partners so we could move forward with a common purpose and improve student achievement. The legislation that I introduced earlier this week will help the education sector move forward with a clear process and common understanding of collective bargaining in the education sector.

It’s important to understand that this is made-in-Ontario legislation; it’s a unique Ontario approach to collective bargaining that was developed through extensive consultation with our education partners: school boards and unions and federations. We listened to their feedback. We used their input to draft a bill that reflects and respects their interests. I look forward—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. Supplementary?

Mr. Kevin Daniel Flynn: Thanks to the minister for that response. I know it’s important, and I think we all agree that it’s important to parents and students in all our communities, and especially in my riding of Oakville, to know we can maintain that positive start we’ve had in our schools in this school year.

I understand, and we all know, that the current collective agreements that are in place are due to expire at the end of August 2014. That would mean that negotiations for the next round of collective bargaining will begin in very early 2014. That’s only a few months away. Can the minister explain to this House why it’s so critical for parents and students right across this province that this legislation is passed and passed as quickly as possible?

Hon. Liz Sandals: The member raises an excellent question. It’s absolutely essential to have the provisions of the School Boards Collective Bargaining Act in place before the next round of negotiations. As the member pointed out, almost every contract in the school board sector expires in August 2014. We need this legislation passed so that we can move forward with a clear process that defines the role of the school board associations, the role of the unions and federations and the role of the government at the central table, and the role of unions and local school boards at the local tables.

We need this legislation, and I hope that we can count on the members of all parties, every member in this House, to make sure that we get this legislation passed so that we can move forward with good labour relations with a good process in the next round of collective bargaining.

ONTARIO PUBLIC SERVICE

Mr. Toby Barrett: A question to the Premier: People have the perception that government jobs pay a whole lot better than regular jobs. We know they’re right; it’s in the research. If you add up wages, holidays, sick days, early retirement, job security and pensions, public servants come in 30% better off than their private sector counterparts, counterparts who are paying the freight. These are the people who are paid 30% less with no pension. It’s not fair, Premier, and you have allowed it to become so out of whack from what should be pay equity.

Premier, will you support my Comprehensive Pay Fairness Act this afternoon? Will you support transparency to shine the light on this unfairness and to restore pay equity between the public and private sector employees?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Minister of Government Services.

Hon. John Milloy: Mr. Speaker, I read with interest the member’s private member’s bill, and as far as I can tell, what he’s interested in doing is establishing more bureaucracy at Queen’s Park in order to oversee a negotiation process—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Bruce–Grey–Owen Sound is warned.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Who’s next?

Carry on.

Hon. John Milloy: —a labour relations environment which, over the last number of years, has seen a number of agreements between the government and the unions that are represented here at Queen’s Park that, in fact, have seen restraint across the board.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Renfrew–Nipissing–Pembroke is warned.

Carry on.

Hon. John Milloy: I’ll give examples. The government has concluded two collective agreements with its two largest unions, OPSEU and AMAPCEO, as well as the Professional Engineers Government of Ontario, and the Association of Ontario Physicians and Dentists in Public Service. All four contracts were negotiated. The most recent ones include two-year wage freezes that will help the government fight the deficit.

On this side of the House, we’re taking action, not asking for more bureaucracy.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary.

Mr. Toby Barrett: Back to the Premier: It sounds like a bit of a start, but the research is in. C.D. Howe, the Frontier Centre for Public Policy, the Fraser Institute, the Canadian Federation of Independent Business, the federal Treasury Board: Government jobs pay more—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The Minister of Energy is warned.

Carry on.

Mr. Toby Barrett: Government jobs pay more: higher perks, higher pay and higher pensions. It’s not fair, and it’s expensive. Drummond says that half the Ontario budget goes to public sector compensation. Half of $128 billion is $64 billion. And they are being compensated at 30% above market rates—30% too much. That equals $19 billion a year. You’re paying public servants $19 billion over regular market labour rates.

Premier, again, will you support transparency? Will you support public-private pay equity, described in my bill? Will you—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. Member, sit down. And I don’t need the member from Timmins–James Bay to tell me how to keep count. Thank you.

Answer.

Hon. John Milloy: I know that the members opposite don’t like to read the budget, and didn’t read the budget, but I will ask him to break that and read page 126. “Agreements have been—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Haldimand–Norfolk is warned.

Carry on.

Hon. John Milloy: “Agreements have been reached with bargaining agents representing nearly 50,000, or over”—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Halton is warned.

Carry on.

Hon. John Milloy: “—or over three quarters of Ontario public service employees.”

The agreement reached with AMAPCEO, the professional crown employees of Ontario, “includes a two-year wage freeze and the restructuring of merit pay, short-term sickness benefits and time-off provisions, which will result in cost avoidance of $24.6 million in 2012-13 and $30.4 million in 2013-14.”

“The agreement reached with the Ontario Public Service Employees Union (OPSEU) includes a two-year wage freeze, a reduction in the entry-level....” It goes on and on. “The agreement will avoid costs of $34.1 million in 2013 and $37.4 million in 2014.”

We’re taking action. We don’t need more bureaucracy.

MINING INDUSTRY

Mr. Michael Mantha: My question this morning is to the Minister of Northern Development and Mines. The Ontario government claims to be open for business to mining companies and the economic benefits they will bring to this province, but the reality is that this government has been sitting on the sidelines for years and failed to establish even the simplest of mining development plans that involved communities, First Nations and companies alike.

Companies are told to drive the process of consultation without any government input or guidelines, a process which is creating animosity with First Nations and delaying development and jobs. Will this government take action before companies and investment dollars start fleeing our province?

Hon. Michael Gravelle: Quite frankly, I think the member could not be more wrong. We are seeing, obviously, some great opportunities moving forward with the mining sector. I was just up in Lac des Iles a couple of days ago, where they commissioned a new mine site—a great consultation with the First Nation there, Gull Bay First Nation.

We’re seeing other examples of that all across the province. We put forward a modernized Mining Act that, indeed, continued to provide the clarity that industry was looking for, but also updated it so it was very much reflective of 21st-century values. That’s why we have included in that considerable changes in how we consult with our aboriginal communities and our aboriginal leadership.

I’m a little bit startled by the question. I suspect that in the supplementary I may get some more details and more specifics, but indeed, we’re seeing 23 new mines opening up in the last 10 years, and we’re going to continue to see positive opportunities in the mining sector here in the province of Ontario.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I incorrectly identified the member from Halton on an issue, and I apologize.

Carry on. Supplementary.

Mr. Michael Mantha: Again, to the minister: I can say with confidence that challenges to northern development are happening all across the north, and that communities and businesses agree that the framework and government guidance are just not there. This is precisely why the NDP has been calling on the government to take a leadership role in creating a real plan and engaging in real consultation that will benefit job creation in this province.

When will this government stop avoiding challenges and get to work, creating a real plan for job creation in the mining sector?

Hon. Michael Gravelle: We brought a 100-year-old piece of legislation into the 21st century by introducing rules and structure that will improve, and that have improved, how exploration activities are carried out in the province of Ontario. We are in the process of an extraordinary consultation with Matawa First Nations and the province, in negotiating moving forward on the Ring of Fire development, which again is unprecedented. It’s historic. It began with a meeting that the Premier, myself and the aboriginal affairs minister had.

The fact is that we are working very, very closely with the mining sector. I’m looking forward to seeing them all joining us here next week. I certainly would invite my colleague to have some discussions with us about this. We are going to continue to move forward. We’ve got great, positive developments in the mining sector. We’re going to continue to see it, creating more jobs and more opportunity for everybody in the province of Ontario.

RESEARCH AND INNOVATION

Mr. Phil McNeely: My question for the Minister of Research and Innovation. The Ottawa area is home to many innovative companies. These companies have been creating innovative products that help people across the province, including Emma-Rose Gibson from the Ottawa area. Emma, a legally blind fourth-grade student, is one of the first users of eSight eyewear, a pair of computerized glasses developed by the Ottawa-based eSight Corp. Since May, Emma has been wearing the glasses. Not only do they grant her a greater degree of mobility, but they are also helping her participate in a new way in her classroom.

Recently Emma said, “I went from just seeing nothing to seeing everything in my classroom.”

The development of these eSight computerized glasses is made possible through financial support from our government. I’m happy to see that our investments are helping children in a very positive way.

Despite the investment in several research and development initiatives, many entrepreneurs across Ontario have a hard time turning their innovative ideas into innovative products. Mr. Speaker, through you to the Minister of Research and Innovation: What is our government doing to help entrepreneurs take their innovative ideas and products to the next stage?

Hon. Reza Moridi: I want to thank the member from Ottawa–Orléans for that question. Our government recognizes the importance of providing support to innovative companies to thrive and compete in the global market.

Our Investment Accelerator Fund, for example, assists innovative and emerging companies. To date, the Investment Accelerator Fund program has made investments in 68 promising Ontario companies, which created 1,100 jobs.

Our Innovation Demonstration Fund funds companies looking to commercialize new technologies that have both commercial and environmental impacts. To date, the Innovation Demonstration Fund program has committed to 41 projects and is expected to create over 4,100 jobs.

I am proud to say that our investments help many young and innovative companies not only to compete in Ontario but around the world.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary.

Mr. Phil McNeely: I’m glad that our government has invested in the initiatives needed to help companies move their ideas through the expensive commercialization process. Emma-Rose Gibson’s story illustrates how important it is to continue supporting innovative companies to develop their ideas into new products and services so that we can improve the quality of life for all Ontarians.

As the minister knows, our government has consistently supported Ontario’s strong health care system through strategic investments to ensure that the needs of residents are effectively looked after. One of the ways this can be accomplished is through research and innovation in life sciences and technology. We need to create the right conditions to allow our health and technology sectors to make breakthroughs and advances that will increase the standard of care in Ontario.

Mr. Speaker, through you to the Minister of Research and Innovation: What other initiatives is the government undertaking to foster innovation in the Ontario health care system?

Hon. Reza Moridi: Again, I want to thank the member from Ottawa–Orléans for that very important question. Our government recognizes that innovation will help our province to stay at the forefront of health research in the world.

We have invested, for example, $100 million in the Ontario Brain Institute to support research in the field of brain diseases. We have also invested $357 million in the Ontario Institute for Cancer Research, which is one of the leading institutions in the world, and we have committed $1.3 billion to support research in various fields in Ontario research institutions through the Ontario Research Fund.

I am proud to say that our investment in health research has provided better health care to Ontarians across the province.

ONTARIO COLLEGE OF TRADES

Mr. Garfield Dunlop: My question is to the Minister of Training, Colleges and Universities. As you know and as we mentioned the other day, it’s Small Business Week here in Ontario. To help celebrate Small Business Week, I introduced the No New Tax for Businesses Act to protect small businesses from being punished by your new trades tax, courtesy of the Ontario College of Trades. The bill removes

section 7 out of the College of Trades act so that businesses can’t be taxed.

Minister, will you support my bill to protect small businesses from the newest Liberal tax that will kill jobs and hurt small businesses here in our province?

Hon. Brad Duguid: I don’t think I could have been more clear when I answered this very same question earlier in the week. We did not proclaim that section.

We have no intentions of proclaiming that section. Let’s be very, very clear here, because I think the member is trying to allow businesses to think something other than what’s going on here. The fact is that businesses do not have to pay to be involved with the College of Trades. We would encourage them to do so.

I’m a little concerned as I look at the member’s bill. He supports what we’re doing on one part of the bill, but is the member suggesting that businesses should not be involved in the skilled trades? Is he suggesting that businesses should not get involved with the College of Trades? I think that’s a pretty dangerous thing to want to suggest. Businesses should be involved; they’re an important part of the industry. It’s everybody working together that’s going to help us build a strong economy. Why would you want to divide them all up?

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Garfield Dunlop: I want the businesses involved; I don’t want them taxed. I don’t want them taxed. That’s what your bill does.

I can tell you first-hand that small businesses value certainty and transparency, and you’re talking about transparency all week. If you never intend to proclaim

section 7, then why do you have it? Let’s remove it. That’s what I’m asking you today. Unless you plan to use the small businesses to pay for your $1-billion gas plant scandal or other runaway spending, and all the messes you’ve made over there, you should do the right thing.

Section 7 is a huge tax hike looming over the small businesses here in our province. But can you do something, Minister? Pass my bill and show small businesses that they never will have to pay the College of Trades business tax. Will you stand with small businesses and support the No New Tax for Businesses Act, Bill 118, my new private member’s bill? Thank you.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Stop the clock.

Be seated, please. Be seated, please. Thank you.

Minister.

Hon. Brad Duguid: For the fourth time this week, we did not proclaim

section 7. We do not have any intentions of proclaiming

section 7. We will not be looking to businesses to pay fees, unless they choose to do so.

Mr. Speaker, if the member really cared about small business, he would have supported our employer health tax exemption, which is providing benefit to 60,000 small businesses across this province. If you really cared about small businesses, you would have supported that. You didn’t.

I think what we’re seeing here is a bunch of propaganda, a bunch of rhetoric. At the end of the day, we’ve got to get every sector in this province working together to create jobs and build a small economy. We want businesses to work with the College of Trades, be involved with—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Stop the clock, please.

When I say “thank you,” that’s it. And when I stand, you sit.

New question, please.

HORSE RACING INDUSTRY

Ms. Andrea Horwath: My question is for the Premier. This government ruined a lot of Thanksgiving dinners in Niagara when it held, the Friday before the long weekend, a press conference to cut the Fort Erie Race Track out from the province’s horse racing plans. While the Premier took political cover behind one of her many advisory panels, families were suddenly faced with agonizing choices: keep feeding horses that may never race again at Fort Erie Race Track, or try to sell the horses, try to sell the farm and leave their homes and livelihoods behind?

After gutting the local economy, the Premier promised a different kind of future for Fort Erie. Can she kindly tell the people who actually live there what she has in mind?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: What I have said repeatedly is that Fort Erie can work with the Ontario Racing Commission and with the OLG to determine what that future would look like. In fact, I hope that happens. I hope that there can be an arrangement that is put in place so that Fort Erie can continue to race, as there was a season this year. My hope is that they will do that.

What our Horse Racing Transition Panel has done is it has put in place a plan that we are implementing that will put $400 million over five years to put in place a sustainable horse racing industry in the province. That did not exist, Mr. Speaker. We did not have a sustainable plan. The SARP plan was not sustainable over the long term. It wasn’t transparent; it wasn’t open. Elmer Buchanan and John Snobelen and John Wilkinson did us a huge service by putting in place a plan that we can now invest in over the next five years.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Ms. Andrea Horwath: Nobody in Fort Erie has any idea what “festival racing” even means and, frankly, neither does the government.

This week in question period, the Premier washed her hands of the people who make a living from horse racing at the Fort Erie track. She told them to sort out their consolation prize with the OLG, but the OLG isn’t talking to them either. Time is running out and livelihoods are hanging in the balance. Why is this government so determined to make sure that there is no 117th racing season at Fort Erie Race Track?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Minister of Rural Affairs.

Hon. Jeff Leal: We do have a good plan in place, a plan that has been developed by John Snobelen, Elmer Buchanan and John Wilkinson. Let me tell you, Mr. Speaker, our plan is galloping forward; the NDP plan is still at the starting gate.

CONSUMER PROTECTION

Mr. Bas Balkissoon: My question is to the Minister of Consumer Services. Minister, in my community of Scarborough–Rouge River, I’ve always heard cases of constituents being scammed when buying cars from private sellers. With a large population of new Canadians in the riding, and the dependency on cars to get around, I’ve been attempting to inform my constituents on what to be aware of when buying cars from private sellers.

I have informed my constituents to be aware of unlicensed dealers who pose as private sellers. In the past, they have usually targeted buyers of inexpensive, reliable and economical vehicles. However, I’m now aware of cases where these private sellers are dealing in newer and luxury models. They are also now more and more moving to online methods of selling high-end cars and pickup trucks.

Speaker, is the minister aware of—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you.

Minister of Consumer Services.

Hon. Tracy MacCharles: I’d like to thank the member from Scarborough–Rouge River very much for raising this very important question. He’s absolutely right: There’s a new and growing trend of online targeting of luxury brand cars by private sellers.

The Ontario Motor Vehicle Industry Council, also known as OMVIC, which falls under the auspices of my ministry, is regulating vehicle sales. They have found, in a recent investigation, this trend that the member speaks of.

Many of these private sellers may try to represent themselves as legitimate dealers when, in fact, they’re not. They also misrepresent the vehicles they’re actually selling. The vehicles are often insurance write-offs, accident-damaged vehicles or have the odometers tampered with.

Similar to most things, consumers are looking online for vehicle sales. Research by the Used Car Dealers Associat