Manitoba Hansard — 19 September 1988 (Sitting 39A, 34th Legislature, 1st Session)

34-1-39a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 First Session - Thirty-Fourth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 37 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XXXVII No. 39A -1:30 p.m., MONDA Y, SEPTEMBER 19, 1988. ISSN 0542-5492 Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer, Province of Manitoba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fourth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME CONSTITUENCY ALCOCK, Reg Osborne ANGUS, John St. Norbert ASHT ON, Steve Thompson BURRELL, Parker Swan River CARR, James Fort Rouge CARSTAIRS, Sharon River Heights CHARLES, Gwen Selkirk CHEEMA, Gulzar Kildonan CHORNOPYSKI, William Burrows CONNERY, Edward Hon. Portage la Prairie COWAN, Jay Churchill CUMMI NGS, Glen, Hon. Ste. Rose du Lac DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. Roblin-Russell DOER, Gary Concordia DOWNEY, James Hon. Arthur DRIEDGER, Alb ert, Hon. Emerson DRIEDGER, Herold, L. Niakwa DUCHARM E, Gerald, Hon.

Aiel EDWARDS, Paul St. James ENNS, Harry Lakeside ERNST, Jim, Hon. Charleswood EVANS, Laurie Fort Garry EVANS, Leonard Brandon East FILMON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo FINDLAY, Glen Hon. Vir den GAUDRY, Neil St. Boniface GILLESHAMMER, Harold Minnedosa GRAY, Avis Ell ice HAMMON D, Gerrie Kirkfield Park HARAPIAK, Harry The Pas HARPER, Elijah Rupertsland HELWE R, Edward R. Gimli HEMPHILL, Maureen Logan KOZAK, Richard, J. Transcona LAMOUREUX, Kevin, M. Inks! er MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood MANDRAKE, Ed Assiniboia MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. Morris McCRAE, James Hon. Brandon West MINENKO , Mark Seven Oaks MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon.

River East NEUFELD, Harold, Hon. Rossmere OLESON, Charlo tte Hon. Gladstone ORCHARD, Donald Hon. Pembina PANKRATZ, Helmut La Verendrye PATTERSON, Allan Radisson PENNER, Jack, Hon. Rhineland PLOHMAN, John Dauphin PRAZNIK, Darren Lac du Bonnet ROCAN, Denis, Hon. Turtle Mountain ROCH, Gill es Springfield ROSE, Bob St. Vital STORIE, Jerry Flin Flon TAYLOR, Harold Wolseley URUSKI, Bill lnterlake WAS VLVCIA-LEIS, Judy St.

Johns VEO, lva Sturgeon Creek PARTY LIBERAL LIBERAL NDP PC LIBERAL LIBERAL LIBERAL LIBERAL LIBERAL PC NDP PC PC NDP PC PC LIBERAL PC LIBERAL PC PC LIBERAL NDP PC PC LIBERAL PC LIBERAL PC NDP NDP PC NDP LIBERAL LIBERAL NDP LIBERAL PC PC LIBERAL PC PC PC PC PC LIBERAL PC NDP PC PC LIBERAL LIBERAL NDP LIBERAL NDP NDP LIBERAL

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, September 19, 1988. The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table a number of reports: firstly, a guide showing Provincial Tax Comparisons across all provinces of Canada; Annual Report, 1986- 87, the Department of Crown Investments; a copy of a Review of Government Accounting Policies and Financial Obligations to March 31, 1988, the Appendix. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Hon. Cl ayton Mann ess (Mi nis ter of Fin an ce) introduced, by leave, Bill No. 27, The Private Acts Repeal Act. SPE AKER'S STATEMENT *

(1335) Mr. Speaker: I have a statement to make to the House. Honourable Members may wish to be informed of the death on Thursday, September 15, of Charland Prudhomme, who was the Clerk of this Assembly from June 1, 1951 to February 15, 1973. Mr. Prudhomme was 84. I have written to Mrs. Pr ud homme to extend condolences on behalf of the House, as I believe all Honourable Members would want me to do. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS Mr. Speaker: Before we proceed, I would like to draw the attention of Honourable Members to the gallery where we have 10 students from a Swan River school (Emmanuel Christian).

They are under the direction of Mary Klassen. The school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Swan River (Mr. Burrell). On behalf of all Honourable Members, I welcome you here today. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Economic Stimulation Mini-budget Request Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): My question is to the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness). In the first quarterly report issued by his Government, there are strong economic indications of a downturn in the Manitoba economy.

Retail sales tax or revenues have fallen short of projections by almost $3 million in the first quarter indicating significantly weaker sales in our stores. The $1 million shortfall in payroll tax reflects increased unemployment. At the same time, federal monetary policy which is dedicated to higher interest rates to produce a managed slowdown in Ontario's overheated economy acts as a disservice to Manitoba. Can the Minister tell the House whether he will introdu ce a mini- budge t to sti mulate consumer confidence and employment in Manitoba, given that his August Budget is a formula for zero economic growth?

Hon. Cl ayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Well, the direct answer to the question, Mr. Speak er, is no. But let us go into some of the

preamble by the Leader of the Opposition (Mrs. Carstairs). The forecasted growth of the economy in the August Budget was some 2 percent. The latest number that has been presented today by the Conference Board of Canada is 1.4 percent on the positive side, and indeed there is only one province in the nation that is going to have a contracting economy this year by again the forecasts of the Conferenc e Board, and that is the Pro vince of Sa skatchewan.

We are cognizant of the fact that the drought certainly impacted and will continue to impact the economy to some degree, that the forecast of 1.4 percent growth in the economy is what we understand will continue to be in place. A newspaper report where an official of the Conference Board publicly mused at a number that may, in his mind, indicate that the economy would not grow is certainly not substantiated by calls that we have made today. So, Mr. Speaker, the answer to the question is no.

There will not be a mini-budget and, secondly and more importantly to the people of Manitoba, the economy is going to grow this year. Interest Rate Escalation Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Can the Finance Minister please tell the House today what response Manitoba has received from the request of our First Minister (Mr. Filmon) and other First Ministers with regard to sensitivity on the part of the federal Government with interest rates, considering that interest rates have increased by over 1 percentage point since that first request was made? Hon.

Cl ayton Manness (Min ister of Finance): We do not want to see interest rates continue to climb. Most of the provinces, I dare say all of the provinces, do not want to see them continue to climb. But the Bank of Canada is an institution which tries to look at monetary policy in a fashion which is for the good of the nation. They are at arm's length from the federal Government and they are a much greater distance from 1353

Monday, September 19, 1988 those of us in provincial Governments. So, Mr. Speake r, although I would share with the Leader of the Opposition the belief that the int erest rates cannot continue to escalate, hopefully, that they will reduce in the short term or in the intermediate term, I do not think anybody today has direct impact on the actions of the Bank of Canada. To that end, I can say, when I was in New York and Toronto talking to many financial people last week, everybody felt that interest rates beginning in 1989 would begin to show a diminishing effect.

Therefore, hopefully the economies not only of most provinces but certainly of Manitoba, which is of greatest interest to us, would continue to pick up from that point. * (1 340) Bon d Rate Setting Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): lt would appear then that the announcement by the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) was just a bit of fluff. Can the Finance Minister (Mr. Manness) tell this House when we can expect an improvement in our bond rating in light of the fact that was the purpose of this trip to New York? Hon. Clayton Manness (Min ister of Finance): The Leader of the Opposition (Mrs.

Carstairs) shows some lack of unde rstanding of the proc ess. I went - (Interjection)-it seems like the Leader of the Opposition is criticizing me because I went. I went to provide detail with respect to any questions that the rating agencies may have dealing with the Budget and the economy and, I dare say, even with respect to the political state of affairs in the Province of Manitoba. That is the right thing to do. lt is what Finance Ministers over the past number of years have done on several occasions.

The process does not allow for the analyst, with respect to the rating agencies, to retire to some back room as a jury and then come in with a new rating or an unchanged rating, as the case may be, a half an hour later. That is not the process. We asked the rating agencies to come back to Manitoba in the month of October, which they will be doing, at which time they will no doubt have even more in-depth questions to present to us. Let me say though with respect to the rating agencies and to the Budget, the rating agencies in my view were favourably impressed with this Budget of ours.

Western Diversification Fund Application Stimulation Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Perhaps the next time, before he goes, he will not make quite such outrageous statements. My new question is to the First Minister (Mr. Filmon). Manitoba, to date, has received less than 8 percent of the funding from the Western Diversification Fund. Of $345 million, $149 million went to three projects, none of which were in Manitoba. Of $247 million worth of projects, each over $5 million, none of it went to the Province of Manitoba.

A spokesperson for the Western Diversification Fund has said it is industry driven, and implies Manitoba has not been making the right applications. Can the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) tell this House, what program has his Government put into place to stimulate the correct applications from the Province of Manitoba? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): I am glad that the Leader of the Opposition (Mrs.

Carstairs) has asked that question because of course, when we came into Government and we found that at that point in time there had only been some $5.7 million, I believe, committed to Western Diversification as a result of the initiatives of the previous administration, we found that the previous administration was going to Western Diversification and saying we want the project money to go into things such as sewer and water and infrastructure that was normally viewed as provincial and municipal Government responsibilities.

They were ' holding out for the money to go in for that, rather than for what it was intended to which was projects that would diversify our economy, that would provide employment in industrial development and take off our dependency on resource industries, such as farming and mining and so on, and that was the whole intention of the Western Diversification initiative. The previous administration ignored it completely.

We have been working with them along the right lines, along the area that they want to, and we have managed to have some, I believe it is in the range of, $28 millio n now committed to Manitoba, a vast improvement over wher e it was before we took Government. We do not think it is enough. We are committed to work even harder and more diligently with the federal Government to get more money for true diversification and expansion of our economy, and that is what we are going to do. *

(1345) Mrs. Carstairs: If this Government has a blueprint for the kinds of businesses it thinks could make and take advantage of Western Diversification funds, would it table such a blueprint in this House? Mr. Filmon: We have indicated on many occasions that we believe that the economy of Manitoba can be much strong er. We have many advantages in transportation, in communications, in health care technology. As a result, the federal Government has announced an initiative for development in the health care field, a variety of initiatives, and we are working cooperatively with them in those fields.

We have had an indication of course, as a result of Air Canada's purchase of Airbus, they are going to be doing more maintenance and more high technology work here in Manitoba. We will continue to work to ensure that our economy is expanded and it grows. She knows of course that we are pursuing an aluminum smelter, we are pursuing 1354

Monday, September 19, 1988 potash development, we are pursuing many, many initiatives. We bel ieve that the attitude of the Government in removing the payroll tax from half of our employers, in giving of tax breaks to new small businesses who will be forming in Manitoba in future, all of these are indications that we want economic growth. We want sustainable economic development and growth, and we are working on it on all fields. That is our blueprint. That is our plan for the future. Free Trade Food Industry Diversification Mrs.

Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): With a final supplementary to the First Minister (Mr. Filmo n), food proc essing has been a significant employer in Manitoba in recent years. Can this Minister explain how this diversification will continue when 75 percent of our processing is conducted by American companies, and they have stated that there will be no new capital investment in Canada as a result of free � trade? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): I regret the doom-and gloom attitude of the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Carstairs).

She referred to us during a televised debate earlier this year as being a have-not province. She has continued to put forth her theory that Manitoba is a down-and-out province, and it would be under her leadership. lt would indeed be under her leadership, Mr. Spe aker. With respect to food processing, just yesterday, I spoke with the general manager of Campbell Soups here in Manitoba. They are supporters of free trade. They are bullish about their opportunities to expand and grow in Manitoba and in Canada, and they very much bel ieve that free trade will create more opportunities in food processing for them.

Carnation Foods, not south of the border- I say to the Leader of the Opposition (Mrs. Carstairs), she is the only one who wants development to take place south of the bord er. We want it to take place in � Manitoba. We are for Manitobans and we support the ' best interests of Manitoba, unlike her and her colleagues, her doom-and-gloom colleagues. Federal Economic Policy Interest Rates Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): I am pleased to hear the flowery speech of the First Minister (Mr. Filmon).

In light of the fact that Michael Wilson is totally snubbing all regions outside of central Canada, the Bay St reet Finance Minister is totally snubbing the First Ministers in their meeting by his economic policies and totally disregarding the farm economy, the small business economy, the home build ing eco nomy, will the Fi rst Mi nister inform Manitobans whether he has indeed stood up for Manitoba and written the Prime Minister on this high interest rate policy, and will he table that letter in the House today? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): I realize that the Leader of the NDP Party (Mr.

Doer) does absolutely nothing to try and keep up to date on issues, and so he has probably not seen the communique that was issued by all 10 Premiers in this province (sic), urging the Bank of Canada to abandon the increased interest policies that it has been pursuing. But surely he does not believe anybody in this Chamber or out in the province should believe that the federal Government wants to have high interest policies. The federal Government does not want it any more than the provinces do. The fact of the matter is that he should know full well that the Bank of Canada is an arm's-length organization. *

(1350) Under the Trudeau Liberal Government, it brought interest rates up over 20 percent in this country. That is what the Trudeau Liberals did. That is what the Liberals would do today if they had the Bank of Canada around them. We do not want high interest rate policies. We have said so publicly, and I stand by it. Mr. Doer: The only person in this House who is not keeping up with the times is the First Minister (Mr. Filmon). The Prime Minister and Mr. Wilson have totally disr egarded their advice from the First Ministers' Conference.

His communique is weeks out of date, percentages out of date in terms of the interest rates in this country and the interest rates in Manitoba. My question to the First Minister is, why has he not written to the Prime Minister to overrule Michael Wilson's Toronto bias on high interest rates? Why has he not stood up for the farm economy? A 1 percent interest increase is $100 million in terms of the farm economy. lt will devastate small business and it will devastate an already beginning to be devastated economy under this Tory Government.

Why has he not written the Prime Minister to overrule Michael Wilson on this terrible policy of the federal Tories? Mr. Filmon: Mr. Spe aker, just yesterday, I watched a commentary and a discuss ion amongst Ottawa observers in the media who acknowledge that high interest policies are a very detrimental thing for a Government going for re-election. There is absolutely no way that the Co nservative Government of Canada wants a high interest policy.

The reality is they do not put interest rate decisions in the hands of politicians so that they are not switched back and forth because there is an election in the offing or because of any other political need of a Government in power. Those decisions are made by a third-party group. I disagree with the third-party analysis of the Bank of Canada. I happen to agree with the Leader of the New Democratic Party (Mr. Doer) that the interest rates are too high. They are two-and-a-half percentage points higher than the base rate in the United States.

That is the largest spread that we have had vis-a-vis the American rates in history, and there is no justification for it. We have told that to the Bank of Canada, and I believe that we have got to continue to tell them that and indeed we will. 1355

Monday, September 19, 1988 Contingency Plans Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): The rhetoric in this House, Mr. Speaker, is all well and good. The question to the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) is, what is he doing about it? Has he written the Prime Minister about this crazy policy? This policy of high interest rates is thr ee time s the inflation rate in Manitoba, utterly unprecedented in terms of its impact on our economy, on small business, on housing and on the farm economy. My question to the First Minister is, why has he not written the Prime Minister to overrule Michael Wilson?

Why is he not taking any leader ship, and what contingency plans has he got in place for our particular sectors that will be devastated by this continuing high interest rate policy of the federal Tory Government? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier ): Mr. Speaker, the Member for Concordia (Mr. Doer) has a short memory but, while the New Democrats were in Go vernment in thi s province, we had interest rates go over 20 percent. We had prime rates in the range of 22 percent that wiped out small business by the hundreds and farmers by the hundreds while they were in Government.

That was during the years of the early Eighties and we remember very sadly. We are not about to let that happen so we have spoken out strongly to the Bank of Canada. We have enlisted the support of the other nine Premiers in this country to say high interest rates are bad for this country and we want a dampening effect on them because we want to keep them under control. Believe me, we agree with the position put forward, and we are speaking out strongly so that we de not hit the kind of interest rates that we had under the NDP. Mr. Doer: My final question to the First Minister (Mr.

Filmon), will he, in light of the fact that we had a contingency plan in place while the interest rates were decreasing over the last six years-i nterest rates did decrease for farmers and small business. Will the First Minister do two simple things today?

Will he inform this House that he will indeed write the Prime Minister and ask him to overrule his Bay Street Toronto Finance Minister, and will he inform Manitobans what the contingency plan of his Government is dealing with small business, agriculture and the housing industry, all of which are being depressed in terms of Tory Government in Manitoba and are being contracted in terms of economic projections in this province? *

(1355) Mr. Filmon: Our Government has indicated in the Budget: (

a) that we are removing the payroll tax from half of the employers in Manitoba who currently pay that tax; (

b) we are creating a tax holiday for new small businesses in Manitoba. With respect to farmers, we are removing education tax off farm land so that all farmers will have a reduced input cost in Manitoba. (lnterjection)-No, we are removing education tax on farm land. We have brought in relief programs, drought relief programs, over $18 million, a 50 percent increase 1356 in our Agriculture budget. We know where the priorities are. We know where the needs are, and we are moving to fulfill those needs and those concerns. Mr.

Speaker: I am sure that all Honourable Members would like to put their questions through the Chair and their answer through the Chair, not just back and forth across the Chamber floor. Headingley Jail Range Bar Installation Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): My question is for the Minister responsible for Workplace Safety and Health (Mr. Connery). In 1983, the then Government of this province promised to put range bars back into Headingley Jail, ranges seven and eight in particular, in response to two riots which occurred in that year. These range bars were never put in.

Needless to say, since that time there have been numerous incidents which might have been prevented by the presence of range bars. Finally, earlier this year, Work place Safety and Health did get involved and set a deadline of May 1 for the putting in of those range bars. That was extended to August 14, 1988 and, most recently, that was extended again to November 1, 1988.

My question is, have these very serious delays been brought to the attention of the Minister, and does the Minister accept the statement which was stated today by his officer that, if it goes a couple of weeks past November 1, that is no problem? Hon. Edward Connery (Min ister of the Environment, Workplace Safety and Health): There have been concerns over the installation and the timing of the installation of the bars, and I will take that question as notice and get back to the Honourable Member. Asbestos Removal Deadline Mr. Paul Edwards (St.

James): I look forward to the respons e fro m the Minister in th at re gard. My supplementary, also to do with Headingley Jail and to the same Minister, is the Minister aware that all of the asbestos at Headingley was supposed to have been taken out recently but, due to insufficient funding of the Asbestos Removal Program, there remains a list of areas with asbestos? Will the Minister act today to remove the very dangerous asbestos areas from Headingley Jail for the protection of guards and inmates? Hon.

Edward Connery (Mini ster of the Environment, Workplace Safety and Health): lt looks like I am going to have a long answer for the Member tomorrow. Thank you, I will take it as notice. Safety Committee Implementation Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): A final question, and perhaps the Minister will make his answer even longer after this. My final supplementary, again the Safety

Monday, September 19, 1988 Committee at Headingley Jail has recommended that sessions be held for guards on dealing with hostage taking incidents. Will the Minister in his capacity as Workplace Safety and Health Minister (Mr. Connery) support the setting up of these very important sessions, and speak to the Attorney-General (Mr. McCrae) upon his return, if that is necessary, to organize these sessions for the guards at Headingley? Hon.

Edward Cannery (Mi nister of the Environment, Wor kplace Safety and He alth): We take our responsibilities in Work place Safety and Health and the safety of workers very seriously. I will review it with my department and I will get back to the Honourable Member. fisheries Industry Small Mesh Net Policy Mr. Harold Taylor (Wolseley): My question is for the Minister of Natu ral Resources (Mr. Penner).

Lake � Winnipegosis no longer has a fall fish ery du e to , overfishing, and Lake Manitoba's fishery was closed for seven years in the mid to late Forties, a direct result of the implementation of a small mesh-net fishery policy, three-and-a-quarter inches in those years. Unfortunately Manitoba, under the NDP, began dabbling with this environmentally unsound practice in 1986 and 1988. The question is, would the Minister responsible for Conservation and Fisheries (Mr.

Penner) tell the House how he justifies the implementation of a three-year small-mesh fishery on Lake Manitoba which will fish out that lake again? *

(1400) Hon. Jack Penner (Mini ster of Natural Resources): Mr. Spe aker, it is a very good question and I would like to, for the Honourable Member's information, indicate to you that the experiment that has been ongoing on Lake Manitoba with perch fisheries, as well as sauger fisheries, has proven to be of benefit to the commercial fishermen in the province and those who � fish on Lake Manitoba. In 1988, for instance, the , contribution made by the perch fishery on the lake contributed some $400,000 to the 600 fishermen who make their living off that lake.

For that reason and by recommendations from the department, I made a decision to continue and put in place in ail of Lake Manitoba three-inch mesh net for this coming year. I have indicated very clearly to the fisheries industry on the lake, as well as to department staff and all those who are concerned, that the program will remain under review and we will initiate three-inch mesh-net fishing on the lake this winter and review again next spring the impact of that and make public the results. Mr.

Taylor: Will the Minister explain how it can be construed as a sustainable development when the three inch nets involved will mean only one breeding year for the fish caught in the future compared to the three to four years that the fish will be able to breed under the present system, the three-and-three-quarter-inch nets? 1357 Mr. Penner: Mr. Speaker, the Honourable Member might want to know that the make-up of fish in Lake Manitoba is some 40 percent sauger, some 53 percent perch and some 4 percent to 5 percent pickerel. There was a substantial overpopulation of perch and sauger on the lake.

The fishermen asked whether they could harvest that overpopulation of sauger and perch, and we indicated to them that we would allow them to do it. lt will be done for a three-month period and after that we will, as I indicated for next year, review that position. Mr. Taylor: In recent times, 26 illegal small-mesh nets were seized by that Minister's conservation officers in the north basin of Lake Manitoba but 313 illegal three inch nets were seized in the south basin.

The question to the Minister is, is not his initiative really nothing more than a legalization of an illegal practice over political pressure from some interested parties in the south basin and is not in the interests of the fishermen overall? Mr. Penner: lt would appear to me, Mr.

Spea ker, that the Liberal Party has very little sympathy for the fishermen on Lake Manitoba. lt is very obvious that there is a harvest to be taken and I have indicated very clearly that we, in fact, are going to allow, for a short period of time this year, them to harvest a stock of fish that is available which will contribute substantially to the economy and enhance the economic well-being of the fishermen who make their living. I am proud of those decision. frontier School Division School Year length Mr. Harold Gilleshammer (M innedosa): Mr. Sp eaker, my que stion is to the Minister of Ed ucation (Mr .

Derkach). Has there been a resolution to the concerns raised by some northern communities in Frontier School Division vis-a-vis the length of the school year? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Min ister of Education): - (Interjection)-No, I am not going to take this question as notice. Mr. Speaker, when I attended the conference for the Northern Association of Community Councils, one of the concerns raised was the fact that my department had indicated that there needed to be some significant changes made in the way the school year was made up when in fact school was being let out in the first week of June.

Su bsequent to that, I have had a meeting with the official trustee of Frontier School Division and also the superint ende nt where, in the spirit of consultation, we have arrived at an agreement whereby the school year will end in the first week of June and the school day will increase by no less than one-half hour in order to make up that time. In this way, the instructional time for students will be maintained at an appropriate level, not like was done in the previous administration. Mr. Jerry Storie (Fiin Flon): I think the House should be gr ateful to the Member for Minnedosa (Mr .

Gilleshammer) for allowing the Minister to get both feet out of his mouth.

Monday, September 19, 1988 Manfor Ltd. Board Replacements Mr. Jerry Storie (Fiin Flon): My question is to the First Minister (Mr. Filmon). Some th ree weeks ago when the Minister respo nsible for Manfor (M r. Ernst) announced that he was firing the board of directors, Members on this side raised questions about the legitimacy of making th at move and particularly removing members on the board who represented communities in northern Manitoba, including Wabowden and Cranberry Portage, and also removing the only Native person who was on the board of directors.

Since that decision has been made, there have been notices appearing in northern papers announcing that there will be contracting out of both slashing and loading of operations in the Wabowden area. My question for the First Minister is: Was the removal of the only member on the board of directors from Wabowden, who happened to be a Native person, related to the fact that they were cutting jobs in Wabowden? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): The Member for Flin Flon (Mr.

Storie) does not refer to the fact that, in placing new members on the board of directors of Manfor, we placed a person from The Pas, who I believe is a woman as well. We placed a person from Flin Flon on the board. We placed a number of Northerners on the board. We have tried to balance it in terms of the interests of people who want to have a businesslike approach to Manfor. The previous administration undertook to sell Manfor to the private sector. We are following through with th ose plans.

We have people with industrial backgrounds, with business backgrounds, all acting on the board of directors so that we will put together a proposal to sell that corporation in the best of interests of all Manitobans, north, south and throughout this province. Mr. Sp eaker, the short answer to his question with respect to Wabowden is no. Contract Awards Mr. Jerry Storie (Fiin Flon): Unfortu nately, shor t answers mean fewer jo bs for Northern ers and particularly the communities that rely on Manfor. Mr. Speaker, my question to the First Minister (Mr.

Filmon), was there any consultation with the IWA with respect to this co ntracting out? Was ther e any consultation with the communities who are going to be affected by this? I understand they lose from five to seven jobs in a very small community. Was there any consultation or is this in effect the new management style of the politically appointed chief executive officer? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): In the absence of the Minister responsible for Manfor (Mr. Ernst), I will take that question as notice and have him bring a response back to the Member for Flin Flon (Mr.

Storie). * (1410 ) Mooselake Loggers Layoffs Mr. Jerry Storie (Fiin Flon): Perhaps while the Premier (Mr. Filmon) is taking that as notice, he can take as notice as well the fact that, on September 8, some 70 or 80 people at the Moose Lake Loggers Corporation received a pending layoff notice which would affect all of the people employed in that community of Moose Lake Loggers, most of whom are Native and from Moose Lake and area. Can the First Minister indicate whether he will instruct the Minister responsible for Manfor (Mr.

Ernst) to ensure that th ose peo ple will have their jo bs, that the negotiations that are going on at Manfor will be concluded, and that Moose Lake Loggers will have cordage to contribute to Manfor operations in the future, and these layoffs will not take place? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Sp eaker, that is a question that should be properly given to the Minister responsible for Moose Lake Loggers (Mr. Downey), and I will let him answer that. Hon.

James Downey (Min ister responsible for Moose lake loggers Ltd.): Let me first of all put on the record that the recommendation was made by the current board of Moose Lake Loggers which was appointed by the former administration. lt is not a decision of a board appointed by us. lt is a board that was there by the previous administration, Mr. Spea ker. lt is not an abnormal situation at this particular time of the year. I will take a little more of the detail as notice and get back to the Member, but I think it is not abnormal and it is being carried out by his board which he appointed.

Highway 75 Project Twinning Mr. Ed Mandrake (Assiniboia): My question is for the Minister of Highways and Transportation (Mr. Driedger). During Question Period on July 26, the Member for Kirkfield Park (Mrs. Hammond) asked the Minister regarding Highway 75. The Minister replied, "We will be working forward on twinning Highway 75 from both ends." My question to the Minister is, can he tell this House when he plans to commence work on Highway 75 in this manner? Hon.

Albert Driedger (Minis ter of Highways and Transportation): I am hoping that my Estimates will come forward pretty soon so that I can table all the projects that we have undertaken for this year. Hopefully, we can do that soon. I would like to indicate though to the Member who asked the question that when I indicated that we would start work from both ends on Highway 75 towards the twinning of it, the first thing we had to do was to hire a consultant to find out exactly where we were going to put the road, and that is in process right now. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! 1358

Monday, September 19, 1988 An Honourable Member: It is on Pembina Highway! An Honourable Member: They do not know where they are going . Mr. Speaker: Albert , Albert! Mr. Driedger: Mr. Speaker, if that statement has created some confusion, I will clarify that , because the previous administration had no further plans for the twinning of Highway 75 and they are very sensitive about it. There were no further plans from the point that it is right now. That is what we are doing. We have got a functional study going to designate the route that will be taken in terms of the twinning . Mr.

Mandrake: A supplementary question , Mr. Speaker , rural community leaders have expressed to me concern about this project. My quest ion to the same Minister is, can he assure this House that the twinning of Highway 75 project, as desirable as it is, will not siphon money from projects in other parts of the province? Mr. Driedger: The short answer is yes. We will be spreading our work across the province, as we will be indicating once we get into Estimates, and I will table the projects that are about to be undertaken.

But I want to indicate to the Member that last year $83 million was spent under the Capital Program , and this year we have $95 million for the Capital Program. We finally made the corner and put a prior ity on highways in this province as we should and we will spread it across the province . Some Honourable Members: Hear, Hear! Federal Compensation Rail Line Abandonment Mr. Ed Mandrake (Assiniboia) : My final supplementary is to the First Minister (Mr. Filmon). Newfoundland rece ived $800 million for improvement of their highways due to the loss of the 547 kilometres of rail line. Manitoba lost 1,170 kilometres.

My question is this : would the First Minister show leadership and tell the Prime Minister to treat Manitoba as an equal partner in Confederation and request our fair share of funding for ou r rail line abandonment? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): The Member for Assiniboi a (Mr. Mandrake) has perhaps been reading some of my notes. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speaker , his colleagues in the Liberal Party should not be laughing at that because I am sure he did understand them. The fact of the matter is that I went to Saskatoon to make that very point.

I had those precise statistics that he put forward and , as a result, First Ministers passed a communique indicating that a national highway policy should become a part of the federal Government's program for the sake of fairness so that they do not just deal on an ad hoc basis, building highways in some provinces but not in others. As a consequence , we even indicated that international connections so that specifically Highway 75 could be included in that would be part of that national highway program and we are awaiting a response from Ottawa on that. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Dauphin (Mr.

Plohman) will have time for one question. Crown Corporations Accountability Hearings Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): My question is to the Minister responsible for Crown corporations' accountability (Mr. Manness) . During the April election campaign , the Conservatives campaigned for what they said was greater Government accountability generally and particularly greater accountability with regard to Crown corporations. They talked about open Government. Despite this, Mr.

Speaker, the Government refuses to table studies on Rafferty-Alameda , as we witnessed last week, legal opinions on energy and free trade , and a number of other studies that have been asked for by this Opposit ion. Now we see this Government violating its statutory obligations requiring major Crowns like MTS , Hydro, MPIC and so on to hold public accountability sessions, and they are doing this at a time when Hydro is having one of its most disastrous years ever and when the chairman of Manitoba Hydro is talking about 30 percent increases. My question, Mr.

Speaker , to the Minister , is he planning to hold public accountability sessions this fiscal year which ends December 31 for many of these Crown corporations? Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister responsible for the administration of The Crown Corporation Accountability Act): Mr. Speaker, the former Crown Accountability Act is in place . It calls for the various Crowns to hold those meetings. I have asked various Crowns to provide for me a format as to how those meetings may be held.

I should also tell the House that there will be legislat ion coming in in short course that may have an impact on the existing legislation and therefore some of the meetings that may be called . But there definitely will be a new form of Crown accountability legislation that will be introduced into this House. Mr. Speaker: The time for oral questions has expired. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. Clayton Manness (Acting Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Housing (Mr. Ducharme) , that Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty . MOTION presented. 1359

Monday, September 19, 1988 Mr. Jay Cowan (Se cond Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, perhaps the Acting House Leader could indicate which committees will be sitting and where. Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker, there will only be one committee today, I am led to believe. lt will be in the outside committee room dealing with the Estimates of Community Services.- (I nterjection)-Well, if it is the will of the Members of the House, we can have that committee sit in the House. Is that fine or will you prefer to go in the-w e will do it in here if it is in agreement.

The Clerk advises me that the rules specifically state that once a committee has started in a certainly venue, it will continue there. Mr. Speaker: Do Honourable Members grant leave to move the Committee of Community Services back into the Chamber? (Agreed) QUESTION put, MOTION carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be gr anted to Her Majesty with the Honourable Member for Minnedosa (Mr. Gilleshammer) in the Chair for the Department of Community Services. COMMITTEE OF SUP PLY SUP PLY -COMMUNITY SERVICES Mr.

Chairman, Harold Gi lleshamm er: I call this Committee of Supply on Community Services to order. We are on

Section 1. (f)

(1) Salaries, $81 7,600.00. Shall the item pass? Hon. Cha rlotte Oles on (Minis ter of Community Services): Before we commence that, there were some questions asked the other day when we were in the committee room, one of them dealing with confidentiality of case records. I have information for the Members to do with first of all Child and Family Services records.

Following proclamation of The Child and Family Services Act in 1986, standards and guidelines on case record confidentiality were developed by program staff and circulated to all regions providing Child and Family Services and to external Child and Family Service agencies. This is a 30-page document which currently serves as a benchmark for client confidentiality for the complete provincial Child and Family Services system.

The guidelines in the document provide a wide range of information and procedures necessary to support the Child and Family Services legislation effectively, and they offer a framework for continu ed policy development in this area. Some parts of these guidelines may have previously been in place in regional offices and child care agencies prior to the new Act. The principle and goal of the guidelines were to achieve consistency in application of policy and procedures regarding client confidentiality throughout the Child and Family Services system across the province.

The legislative authority for and the base of these program guidelines is

Part IV of

Section 76 of the The Child and Family Services Act proclaimed on April 1, 1986.

As this is a manual-type document, I do not have any to table; however, I will outline the document highlights. lt re-emphasizes the confidentiality of Child and Family Service records and clarifies conditions of disclosure; defines who has rights of access to records and in what manner; provides special protections for voluntary service records and closed child care records of persons who are now adults; includes provisions for objections and corrections of records; adds review and appeal provisions; clarifies conditions of access for research.

Under Community Social Services, there is no legislative base for confidentiality of client records under the Mental Retardation or Vocational Reh abilit ation Programs or services provided by Community Social Services. Confidentiality of client information in this division is administered by divisional policy, standards, guidelines and procedures. The regions, because each have their uniqu e community, client and program base, have developed client information confidentiality guidel ines or set universal principles. While most standards are common, there are slight variations in each region.

We will provide a copy of the confidentiality guidelines utilized by regional program staff, sample from Parklands region. I would like to table a copy for the chairman and one for each of the critics. * (14 40) There was another qu estion asked regarding computer-automated projects, financial assistance client expenditure tracking system, FACETS. FACETS is a prototype system designed to track commitments and costs associated with an individual client. The system was designed by Community Services Program Branch with input from the regional program areas.

The FACET system is presently operating in Winnipeg South Office on a pilot basis. FACETS is a suppor t system to the automated commitment accou nting system, CAS, presently implemented in all Community Services and health offices. Commitment accou nting system glob ally records all current and committed expenditures by object code (nature of expenditure) and program code (type of program) in Department of Finance format. FACETS is a client-based expenditure system which records expenditures by client, worker and placement data, thus producing expenditures by case.

FACETS in operational tests has proven beneficial to workers in that it provides individual client data. However, in its current form, it is a duplication of the majority of information entered into the commitment accounting system. Once the prototype has been evaluated through the pilot project, the objective of administrative services will be to merge the commitment accounting and FACETS into one to reduce duplicate data entry and provide regions with the client data required. The system is still in test stage. A qu estion was also asked about vol unteer coordinators.

I would like to provide the Members with that information. The regional volunteer program is 1360

Monday, September 19, 1988 more prevalent in the Winnipeg regions. lt evolved from a Winnipeg-based program called Volunteers in Public Service which is now inactive. The Winnipeg regions have dedic ated staff to coordi nate the volu nteer program for all program services areas, Health and Community Services. A number of volunteer coordinators in Winnipeg regions are: Winnipeg West Central, two full time; Winnipeg South, one half time; Winnipeg North, one full time. The rural regions utilize volunteers for specific programs which are primarily health programs: Public Health, Continuing Care.

The program coordinators for these programs in the regions carry the volunteer coordination function. The Manitoba Developmental Centre also has one volunteer coordinator. While I am on my feet, a question was asked with regard to the audit report on Community Services to the mentally handicapped. I shall give the Members information on that, if you will bear with me.

A) Purpose of the Audit. The purpose of the Internal Audit was to provide senior program management with an assessment of the program for services for the mentally handicapped under the new di rection or mandate with respect to:

a) The effectiveness of the case management syst ems-in take and referral, assessment and initial planning and ongoing planning, to meet new specific objectives of the program.

b) The effectiveness of specific program components-child development, respite care, additional care and support, supervised apartment living, and crisis intervention, to achieve required program objectives.

c) The ability and effectiveness of the management systems to control operational systems, practices and procedures.

d) The extent of compl iance with Gov ernment and departmental policies, directives and requirements, and legislative mandates.

B) The scope of the Audit. 1) Examination encompassed a general review of the significant systems and procedures of the Community Services to the mentally handicapped. 2) Examination conducted in the Programs Branch, Operations Branch, and Admi nistrative Supp ort Uni t of Community Soc ial Services division, Children Special Services Branch, Child and Family Services division and the following regional operations: Central, lnterlake, Thompson, Westman, Winnipeg North, Winnipeg South and Winnipeg West Central. 3) Also involved interviews with other significant individuals and representatives of organizations who interface with the department and its progr amming for mentally handicapped approximately 400 interviews, including consumers, primary care gi vers, collateral service providers, voluntary support and advocacy groups, community based non-profit agencies, other branches of our department, and other departments of the provincial Government, e.g., Educ ation, Health, Employment Services and Economic Secur ity, Natural Resources, Parks, as well as management and staff of the branches delivering the program. 4) The operational assessment was conducted through May 19 86 and January 19 87.

C) Method of Audit Report Review. 1) Copies of the report were distributed to all executive management, that is, Deputy Minister, Assistant Deputy Ministers, 1361 and Executive Dir ectors. 2) Sum marized versions primarily pertaining to a manager's area of responsibility but including all recommendations of the audit team were provided to program line managers. 3) Verbal debriefings by audit team to senior management and individual program line managers as requested. 4) Verbal debriefings to all regional directors by senior management and audit team at regional directors' meeting. 5) On-site verbal debriefings to regional staff where audit is conducted except Central region which have been deferred at the request of the regional director.

D) Method of Implementation. There were in excess of 90 pr imary recommendations in total, many containing several subrecommendations contained in the report. All recommendations were reviewed in detail by senior management with their respective managers. Approximately 84 recommendations were accepted and pr iorized for imple mentation. Work groups were established to study assigned recommendations and develop implementation pl ans, strateg ies and

schedule s. Recommendations were or are being implemented according to pl ans. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Ms. Avis Gray (EIIice): I have a number of questions resulting from that information but I will save them for other appropriations. One question that I would ask though, the Minister of Community Services (Mrs. Oleson) had indicated that with respect to Community Social Services in the regional operations that with the reg ions across the pr ovince th ere may be slight variations in the guidelines for confidentiality.

Could the Minister clarify for me: Does that mean then, if I happen to be an individual receiving service from Community Services living in a particular region in the city and I move to another region, that the manner in which my information about me will be dealt with in a different way because I moved from one region to another? Mrs. Oleson: The m1n1mum standard is the same across all the agencies. Ms.

Gray: Could the Minister then indicate the confidentiality standards and guidelines that she has tabled and presented to us then, that every staffperson across all regions in the province then would at least be applying these minimum standards? Mrs. Oleson: Yes, they should be. Ms. Gray: Could the Minister indicate to us why some regions have decided to develop further confidentiality standards and guidel ines? Would it not seem an important enough issue that in fact all regions across the province would be looking towards developing similarly hig her standards and confidentia lity guidelines? Mrs.

Oleson: Different regions of the province deliver different programs. For instance, the rural areas deliver the child welfare so that would be the reason for any differences between the regions.

Monday, September 19, 1988 Ms. Gray: Could the Minister indicate to us, of the three regions in Winnipeg who would be delivering similar services, if in fact the confidentiality guidelines and standards within each region would be the same for all three regions? Mrs. Oleson: They should be the same. Ms. Gray: The other day, within this appropriation, the Minister indicated that with the number of the computer programs that were being implemented in the regions the workload of the clerical staff would be equalized.

Is she aware-do es her department have data to support the fact that the workload will be equalized and in fact no extra clerical staff will be needed once the programs are fully operational? Mrs. Oleson: What we will have to do is review the staffing needs when the program is fully implemented. it is sometimes difficult to tell in the preliminary stages exactly what staffing will be needed. Of course, there is an ongoing review of staffing at all times. * (14 50) Ms. Gray: When regional directors and senior staff are putting forth budgets for upcoming years, have they not planned ahead?

If they feel that more clerical staff will be needed, have they not asked for more clerical SYs because of the computerization? Mrs. Oleson: That is part of budgeting is to project what needs there will be in the coming year, and staff are already working on next year's budget. So those things are being considered. Ms.

Gray: Could the Minister indic ate, as the implementation occurs with computerization amongst regions and in other branches of her department, could she tell us what type of training programs are in place to ensur e th at the staff who will be utilizing the computers, who will be operating them, are fully trained? Mrs. Oleson: Each automation program will have its own special needs and its own training program within it to familiarize the staff with how it operates. Ms.

Gray: When staff are being trained in the use of the computers, are staff taken out of their work environment and sent to a training program or are they expected to learn how to use the computers on the job? By that I mean, as they do their day-to-day work, are they also expected to learn the use of computers? Mrs. Oleson: Both would be used. They would be learning off-site and on-site. lt would depend on the particular program that was being instituted. Ms.

Gray: Does it seem reasonable to assume that when staff are doing their day-to-day work, as well as that, they can also be expected to learn a computer program as well? Mrs. Oleson: lt would depend on the stage that the program is at. They would not be expected, I would not think, to be doing double duty but, if they are going to make use of the computer program, it would follow quite naturally, at least in my mind, that they would have to learn how to use it. Ms. Gray: The Administrative Services, I understand, deals with office space.

Could the Minister indicate to us if there are any proposals or have there been within the last year or so from anywhere within her department requesting new office space? Mrs. Oleson: I have the information for the Member on regional office space. If she would bear with me, I will give her the complete details. Manitoba Community Services, Manitoba Health, and Manitoba Gover nment Servi ces have formed a committee to work closely in the development of long term spacial plans and share responsibility for resolving spacial issues, that is, workplace safety and health, overcrowding, etc.

This group is in its developmental stage with a view of developing an overall long-term departmental spacial plan. Community Services has now acquired new space for Winnipeg west at 2015 Portage Avenue. This resolved the spacial issues at 1981 and 2000 Portage Avenue and resulted in the consolidation of and a more accessible service delivery system. Community Services has also received approval in principle, in the 19 88-89 major/minor capital, to acquire new office space for the Thompson Regional Office.

Manitoba Health has identified the North Winnipeg Region Office space iss ues as a prio rity in their Estimates. This issue involv es a space at 14 00 Henderson Highway, 108 Vaughan Street, and 10 21 Court Avenue. The status of this space request is unknown as it is contained in the Department of Health work plan and Estimates. Community Services is responsible to negotiate all leased space arrangements in rural Manitoba for Health and Community Services regional offices.

Community Services is presently working to resolve the spacial issues at Winkler, Pine Falls, Grandview, Gillam and Rossburn by obtaining more accessible and appropriate alternate space, subject to Government Services and Treasury Board approval. Community Services is also exploring the feasibility of alternate space in Ashern and Lynn Lake for more suitable program delivery. This is being done in consultation with regional directors to determine the need.

The department is awaiting a decision respecting the Manitoba Hospital Services Commission Capital budget for the approval of the Dauphin and Virden Hospitals development projects, prior to finalizing the consolidation of office space in tho se respective communities. The committee also works in consultation with Manitoba Hospital Servi ces Commission regarding future hospital expansion projects to ensure existing and future regional office spacial requirements are considered in the planning if desired. In conclusion, current regional spacial issues are review ed, lease renewals negotiated, spacial 1362

Monday, September 19, 1988 docu mentation prepared and submit ted by the department to Government Services for final approval and implementation. On new space acquisitions, the department is only involved with identifying need and spacial requirement, and requests approval through the Estimates process. Ms. Gray: Could the Minister indicate to us what priorities she would give regarding new office space at 14 00 Henderson, given that there have been reports from fire commissioners about the basement being a fire hazard? Mrs. Oleson: lt is given a high priority. lt is under the Health Department.

I have visited that office and I realize that it is crowded. Ms. Gray: Could the Minister assure us that in fact she will do everything in her power and work with the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) to ensure that this particular office space-there has been a request for new office space for the last four and five years actually receives very high priority with Treasury Board? Mrs. Oleson: Yes, as I have already indicated, it is a high priority and, yes, I will be pursuing that with the Minister of Health. Ms.

Gray: Could the Minister indicate to us, within the budget, has there been any allowances made for any Capital expenditures for new office space in Winnipeg? Mrs. Oleson: That would be under Gov ernment Services. This department does not have a Capital budget. Ms. Gray: Could the Minister of Community Services (Mrs. Oleson) indicate to us what exactly the rental cost is on the building at 1400 Henderson which we rent from the City of Winnipeg? Mrs. Oleson: Mr. Chairman, we could provide the Member with that information later. Ms. Gray: The Administrative Services also deals with the allocation of Government cars.

Could the Minister indicate to us what is the criteria that is used to determine which staff within the department receive Government cars, with exception of the Minister of course? Mrs. Oleson: lt is the standard way that, under Government administration, standard criteria, other cars are assigned as well. * (15 00) Ms. Gray: Could the Minister repeat her answer? I am sorry, I did not hear it clearly. Mrs. Oleson: Perhaps I was not as clear. 1t is laid out in the General Manual of Administration and the same criteria is used as in other departments. Ms.

Gray: Could the Minister indicate to us what is the ratio of field staff in rural Manitoba who have Government cars versus staff in the City of Winnipeg? 1363 Mrs. Oleson: We can provide the ratios later, but the information I have is that there were 270 vehicles last year. This year we are down to 10 7. There were transfers to Corrections, took part of that number. This year we are at 10 7 cars, but we could find the ratio for her later. Ms.

Gray: Could the Minister indicate to us what the policy or guidelines or the thoughts are in relation to Government vehicles in the past number of years, and it has gone back and forth? There has sometimes been a move toward not having as many Government fleet vehicles and toward not assigning Government cars at all. Could the Minister indicate to us whether there is a move at all in her department to reduce the number of Government vehicles? Mrs. Oleson: That policy issue rests with the Minister of Government Services (Mr.

Driedger), as that criteria is set up by the General Manual of Administration and is administered by the Department of Government Services. Ms. Gray: Could the Minister indicate to us what her thoughts are about having Government cars within her department? Does she feel that we should be increasing the number of Government cars, or should we be moving toward removing Government cars from her department and from other Government departments? Mrs.

Oleson: That issue really has not been on the top of my agenda of things to worry about in this department, but I could certainly take it under advisement and have a look at it for the future. But as I repeat, it is not something that has kept me awake nights. Mr. Chairman: Item 1. (f)(1) - pass; item 1. (fX2) Other Expenditures, $44,500- pass. Item 1. (

g) Human Resources Services: Provides departmental services in the recruitment, selection and evaluation of staff, evaluation and classification of positions; development and training of staff resources; and department payroll, No.

(1) Salaries, $4 17,900.00. Shall the item pass? Ms. Gray: Could the Minister indicate to us, is this the

section where coor di nation of The Freedom of Information Act would occur and, if it is not, where does it occur? Mrs. Oleson: No, it was in the item just passed. Ms. Gray: Within the Human Resources, could the Minister indicate to us-it indicates that there are six SYs which are professional and technical. Could she give us a breakdown of the types of professional or technical positions which involve the six SYs? Mrs. Oleson: There are five personnel administrators, and one Affirmative Action Coordinator. Ms. Gray: Could the Minister indicate to us who does the personnel coordinator report to?

Monday, September 19, 1988 Mrs. Oleson: To administration. Ms. Gray: Could the Minister indicate to us what relationship, if any, the Affirmative Action Coordinator would have with the Civil Service Commission? Mrs. Oleson: Ongoing functional. Ms. Gray: Could the Minister please explain what she means by ongoing functional? Mrs. Oleson: That person receives ongoing information and direction. Ms. Gray: Is there a staff relationship between the Affirmative Action Coordinator and someone in the Civil Service Commission, or is it a liaison function? Mrs. Oleson: lt is a liaison relationship. Ms.

Gray: Who within the Civil Service Commission does the Affirmative Action Coordinator liaise with? Mrs. Oleson: With the Deputy Minister. Ms. Gray: Could the Minister indicate to us if the Affirmat ive Action Coord inators within various departments liaise with the same individual in the Civil Service Commission, or are there different individuals within the Civil Service Commission? Mrs. Oleson: The Assistant Deputy Minister in charge would be the one who they would all liaise with. Ms.

Gray: Given that the Affi rmative Ac tion Coordinator-there is a liaison function between that coordinator and the Civil Service Commission-when policies come down from the Civil Service Commission and a department for whatever reason is perhaps not implementing the policy, what authority does that person in the Civil Service Commission have to ensure that in fact the policies would be implemented, given there is no line relationship there, there is only a liaison function? Mrs.

Oleson: The Deputy Minister has a responsibility for all the branches in the department, all the divisions, so he would be directly responsible. Ms. Gray: Therefore, is the Minister stating that the Deputy Minister of Com munity Ser vices then is responsible within her Department of Community Services to ensure that the affirmative action policies and guidelines are implemented and that the objectives are met? Mrs. Oleson: The short answer is yes. Ms. Gray: Could the Minister indicate to us if the Deputy Minister liaises with this ADM in the Civil Service Commission? Mrs. Oleson: Yes. Ms.

Gray: So my understanding is that the Affirmative Action Coordinator in human resources and the Deputy Minister both liaise with the Assistant Deputy Minister in the Civil Service Commission in regard to affirmative action? That is correct? Mrs. Oleson: Yes, quite often. • (151 0) Ms.

Gray: In regard to the Affirmative Action Program, could the Minister indicate to us, within the Department of Community Services, what some of the systemic barriers have been that have been identified by her coordinator and by Human Resources, and what are some of the implementation steps that have been taken to remove these systemic barriers? Mrs. Oleson: Of course, one of the barriers is attitudes and class specifications of jobs and they need to be rewritten, and managers need to be held accountable. Ms.

Gray: Could the Minister indicate to us if there have been any proposals or ideas formulated regarding how you deal with attitudes within her department? Mrs. Oleson: Mr. Chairman, some of the ways that the executive management group reviews the policies, the deputy communicates with the directors and also reports, and there are seminars held from time to time also represents the target groups. Ms. Gray: Mr. Chairperson, the Minister has indicated that the Personnel Director represents the target group. Could she indicate to us how that changes attitudes within the department? Mrs. Oleson: Mr. Chairman, yes.

The personnel administration hires people within the target groups and that certainly of course would be evident that would change attitudes. l\lls. Gray: Mr. Chairperson, I would think that, if the department goes ahead and hires staff within the target groups, in fact that is not necessarily going to do anything to change attitudes of people within the department who may be concerned about hi ring affirmative action groups. In fact, it would actually cause more difficulties.

Could the Minister indicate to us if a comprehensive orientation program has been developed and has been given to all staff within her department explaining the concept of affirmative action? l\llrs. Oleson: I take exception to the Member saying that one of the things I said that would change attitudes would be hiring people from the target groups. That certainly would change the attitude.

One of the things to do with recruitment and selection-excuse me, the programs for the coming year, recruitment and selection ensuring non-discrimi natory practices with added emphasis on affirmative action selection and the systemic barrier reviews. That is, continue to change internal operation to eliminate inherent systemic barriers in recruitment and selection and job specifications; and the continued support and consultation to managers respective of program design, implementation and 1364

Monday, September 19, 1988 education of both managers and employees; and the formulation of position and policy papers related to tying affirmative action to bud get pr ocess; establishment of a career development program within the department; development of cross-cultural training workshops and weighing of affirmative action in the screening and selection process. Ms. Gray: Mr.

Chairperson, could the Minister indicate to us if all the supervisors and anyone who is involved in the hiring process have been adequately informed and oriented and are fully aware of the Affirmative Action Program and the objectives and, in fact, agree with the affirmative action concept and are very willing to make sure that the objectives are implemented? Mrs. Oleso n: Mr. Chairman, the affirmative action considerations are stressed in all recruitment activities.

Contracts have been establ ishe d with numerous external gr oups and agencies, that is Core Area Initiative, Native Employment Services, Society for Manitobans with Disabilities, involved in the placement of various target gr oups.

Addi tional outr each recruitment is done by distributing employment notices to Band Coun ci ls, Native education programs, community service agencies and self-help groups , couns elling ind ivid uals on req uests reg arding employment opportunities and career pathing, retaining active affirmative action policy inventory, ongoing consult ation with mana gers to es tablish career development programs within branches.

Career development programs have been initiated in the Hu man Resou rces Branch, Winnipeg South Region, Central Region, bridging positions in clerical and administrative support into paraprofessional and professional positions; an automated statistical system established which provides current information as to the departmental affirmative action configuration; a reporting and monitoring procedure designed for senior managers to assess efforts and advancements being made throughout the department. Ms.

Gray: Could the Minister indicate to us what specific assistance would be in place if a supervisor or a manager within the Department of Community Services wanted to hire someone who had physical handicaps and required special equipment or required access to the office? Could the Minister indicate to us what programs or assistance are in place to ensure that a supervisor or manager could indeed hire that person who is physically handicapped? Mrs. Oleson: We would work with the Department of Government Services and with the personnel managers wit hin the de partment to find some way to accommodate that person. Ms.

Gray: If a supervisor wanted to hire someone who is physically handicapped, i.e., was in a wheelchair, and the particular office with which the person would be working was not wheelchair accessible and therefore of course there would be no washrooms as well, or there were steps and the person would not be able to get into the building by a wheelchair , are ther e arrangements available so that the building could be modified so that person could be hired? Mrs. Oleson: We recognize that there are barriers. Sometimes they are difficult to get around, but we would work with individuals and try to accommodate them.

We have, as I said, worked with Government Services, with the Civil Service Commission to see if there could be some arrangements made. I am sure, when we are renting facilities, when an occasion arises we need to rent new facilities, that sort of thing would be kept in mind. This building is very difficult at some points. Some of the newer buildings, for instance, that we may be renting, that certainly would be taken into consideration, the access to them, not only by the people who work in them but the people who might need to visit them. Ms.

Gray: If a supervisor wanted to hire someone who was physically handicapped in the sense that they perhaps required special equipment such as telephone equipment or special aids, for instance, people who were considered thalidomide babies-there are some adults right now who are working in the Civil Service and have been applying for various jobs-could the Minister indicate to us if a person such as this, who is very capable to do the job but required some assistance, was to be hired, what would be the length of time that it might take from the time a supervisor put in a request to have these aids put in or to have the person assessed to see if there were aids available so that they could be hired?

What might be the length of time from that beginning question by the supervisor to when it would be completed? Mrs. Oleson: The time would certainly vary , depending on the circumstances. In one case, a ramp had to be built for the Affirmative Action Coordinator, for instance, so that person would have access to the building in the Human Resources Branch. lt would certainly depend what needed to be done. No, you could not say that one day or three months or whatever would be exactly the time it would take because it would vary with each circumstance. * (1 520) Ms.

Gray: The Minister has indicated that there may be no particular length of time and that in fact it can take quite a while before such aids or modifications are made. Would the Minister tell us whether she sees that as very much a barrier to employment? Because when supervisors feel that it may take months and months before they can hire a person into a position, in most cases, what they would prefer to do is hire someone who is able-bodied because then they do not have to go through the hassle.

Could the Minister indicate to us what steps her department is looking at to ensure that these assistances and these modifications are much better handled so that supervisors and managers feel that they will get some support and they will have no difficulty in hiring the physically handicapped? Mrs. Oleson: 1 recognize what the Member is pointing out and it is difficult but, as I said before, we cannot give anyone a solid time frame. lt would depend upon the disability and the needs that person had. And of course we will be, as I said before, looking at buildings 1365

Monday, September 19, 1988 that we rent and in the future, buildings that we currently rent, to make sure that they are accessible for the handicapped. But no matter how much you plan, you cannot plan every single eventuality and they have to be all looked at separately. Unfortunately, it may take a little time in some cases, and unfortunately that may make it difficult for someone who wants to work in the department. But I assure the Member that we would do all we could to accommodate people who want to work for us. Ms.

Gray: The Manitoba Association of Rights and Liberties developed a report on the Affirmative Action Program within the Civil Service and they certainly had a number of recommendations regarding some of the changes necessary. Could the Minister indicate to us whether the information that she has from her department is similar in nature in that- does her department, have they found the deficienci es as identified by the MARL report are the same as what her staff is finding within the Department of Community Services? Mrs.

Oleson: Our coordinator is looking at the issue of accessibili ty for prospective emplo yees and is reporting to me on ways that we can improve the situation. Ms. Gray: Could the Minister indicate to us, the affirmative action policies and the objectives, are these managed through the Affirmative Action Coordinator centrally or are specific objectives left up to individual regions within the province to develop various guidelines and thrust which they may want in regard to affirmative action? Mrs. Oleson: lt is a coordinated effort by myself, the Deputy Minister and the Affirmative Action Coordinator. Ms.

Gray: Could the Minister indicate to us if any regions have taken it upon themselves in the hiring process to garner individuals from the community who happen to be of the affirmative action target groups and asked them to sit on hiring boards? Mrs. Oleson: Yes. Ms. Gray: Could the Minister comment to us as to what she feels is the value of having individuals who happen to be of the affirmative action group sit on hiring boards? Mrs. Oleson: Those people would have far more insight than I myself, for instance, would have on their special needs and on ways in which they could be met.

So I think it is very useful to have people to give their expertise, if you will, their opinion, on these matters so that we can better serve the public. Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Chairperson, I would ask the Minister to please advise us of the staffing plans and organizational plans dealing with the stated intent of the Government to proceed with amalgamation of services between the Departments of Health and Community Services in the Winnipeg delivery system. Mrs. Oleson: Would the Member repeat the question, please? I am not just clear on which region he is meaning. Mr.

Doer: Could the Minister please advise us of the staffing plan and organizational deployment to deal with the stated intent of the Government to proceed with amalgamation between the delivery system of Health and Community Services in the Winnipeg region, particularly? Mrs. Oleson: That is just in a preliminary review stage. The Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) and I have not met to even review the review, if you want to put it th at way. So ther e are no plans that have been submitted to me on the amalgamation. Mr.

Doer: Is the department working on a number of options of personnel deployment and a number of conting encies on th ose options for perso nnel deployment, consistent with the statements we have heard in this House certainly from the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) and from this Minister in terms of the amalgamation of those services? Could she please advise us of what state those options are at and when we would expect an announcement? Mrs.

Oleson: As I indicated in my earlier answer, this is still at a very preliminary stage and so it is being worked on between the staff of the Health Department and this department. There are no firm plans in place but those things are being considered by the two departments. Mr. Doer: I would ask the Minister: Is there an interdepartmental committee dealing with the personnel deployment issue between the Department of Health and the Department of Community Services? Will there be an announcement within the next couple of months in terms of the amalgamation in the City of Winnipeg for those services? Mrs.

Oleson: As I indicated before, this is preliminary and all those issu es are being looked at by an interdepartmental committee and the recommendation has not come to me at this time. Mr. Doer: Perhaps I did not hear, but there is an interdepartmental committee dealing with this issue between the Departments of Health and Community Services? Mrs. Oleson: Yes. Mr. Doer: Just a couple of last questions, the Affirmative Action Program has been mentioned by the Member for Ellice (Ms. Gray) in a number of questions.

I would ask the Minister, what were the objectives for the first three months of her leadership position as Minister of the department? What were the ob jectiv es for professional positions in terms of the Affirmative Action Program and what were the results? 1366

Monday, September 19, 1988 Mrs. Oleson: There have been no changes. What was in place before is now. I am reviewing all positions and lookin g at ways to improve the department, so affirmative action will be one of the things that I will be looking at. * (15 30) Mr. Doer: Mr. Chairperson, the results, particularly with professional positions, are very important to us all. The hiring from May 9 on is the responsibility of the department consistent with The Civil Service Act and under the leadership of the Minister. We have heard in this House before that the Minister responsible for Labour (Mr.

Connery), when he got rid of the Affirmative Action Coordinator , would now assume total responsibility for the Affirmative Action Program in Government. I guess our question is, what are the objectives and what are the results for the first three months, which is the first quarter of the Minister's res ponsibil ity as Minister responsibl e for this department? Mrs. Oleson: As I said before, we are continuing the advancement that was there before, continuing an aggressive approach position-by-position to make sure that affirmative action is properly adhered to.

We are developing and formalizing policy in such areas as affirmative action and bud get pr ocess, weighing affirmative action in recruitment and selection, and alternative methods to recruitment and selection. Mr. Doer: Given the fact that the Minister of Labour (Mr. Connery) has stated that he is responsible for the Affirmative Action Program in Government, and given the fact that the Mi nister of the department is responsible ultimately for the hi ring within the department, has the Mi nister of Labour , who is responsible for affirmative action, met with all Ministers to review their objectives?

Has the Minister met to review the results of the Affirmative Action Program in his resp onsibility and stated position of being responsible for affirmative action all over the Civil Service? Mrs. Oleson: The objectives are set out by Cabinet and reviewed by Cabinet. The Minister has given me a clear indication that affirmative action is to be followed in every department and he will be asking us for results in the very near future. Mr. Doer: Given the fact that the Minister is reviewing these results with the Minister of Labour (Mr.

Connery), who has made a big to-do about getting rid of the Affirmative Action Coordinator, can the Minister please share the objectives and the results of her department in the first three months under her responsibility in terms of the bottom line, particularly for professional positions, which is the area in which I think we all admit is underrepresented in a number of different and significant ways in affirmative action? Mrs.

Oleson: I have not had an opportunity to review the results of the affirmative action but, as soon as these Estimates are over, that is one of the things that I will be wanting to look at. 1367 If the Member wishes, I can go through the objectives, for this department, of affirmative action for him. 1) Increased representation of Natives by outreach recruitment; participation in special training programs, that is Core Area Initiative; special wording in job bulletins to attract Native applicants; and development of cross-cultural workshops. 2) To facilitate hiring of physically disabled outreach recruitment; consultation re job design; some buildings made more accessible; consultation re awareness of capabil itie s of ph ysically disabled; consultation regarding technical aids. 3) Increased job satisfaction of administrative support staff; consultation regarding career planning and career development; consultation regarding job share and split and acting status appointments, secondments and transfers. 4) Increased repres entation of women in underrepresented classifications; identified positions underrepresented; established contacts in specialized areas, example, Faculty of Engi neeri ng and Admini strative Stud ies, women's organizations, Outreach recruitment; consideration in recruitment and sele ction in classificat ions identified as underrepresented. 5) Increased representation of visible minorities by Outreach recruitment; retention of applicant inventories; cross-cultural workshops; investigating academic equiv alencies; consi deration in recruitment and selection. 6) Review of employment systems regarding those negatively impacted in target grou ps; review and prop ose changes regard ing systemic barrier s in recruitment and selection, and systemic barriers in job specifications; develop awareness and commitment to affirmative action; dissemination of information; information sessions with managers; formalization of Outreach activities; checklist established for personnel administrators during board interviews; qu arterly reporting by managers; self-declarations incorporated in application process; and monitor effectiveness of the affirmative action activities and the collection of data from target group candidates interviewed, target group candidates appointed and distribution throughout the department of quarterly reporting by managers and conducted needs analysis to determine perception of managers.

Mr. Doer: The Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) just tabled the quarterly results of checking the obj ectives in a budget and the results in a budget with this House, with this Chamber. In light of the fact that the Minister has just stated that she is responsible for coordinating affirmation action of the department but they liaise with the Minister of Labour (Mr. Connery) in some way, I would wonder if the Minister, not the stated objectives, but whether the objectives of hiring, in terms of the specific professional positions, are there obj ectives, specific numbers?

Has the Minister ensured that there are results? Can she table these results in the House so that we would know that it is being achieved, result orientated just as a Budget in terms of this Department

Monday, September 19, 1988 of Community Services? How does that fit with the Minister of Labour, who is allegedly holding everybody accountable in this area? Mrs. Oleson: Over the last fiscal year, our department has changed its approach to targets. All positions must receive affirmative action consideration, and targeting positions is not as successful due to no control over turnover and we have no control over availability of qualified target group members, and spirit and intent of affirmative action is not adequately served by targeting.

I should also say that the first quarter results- I have not had an opportunity to look at them yet since it was just the end of last month that they pertained to. I am committed to improving the picture of affirmative action in this department. I am sure that should go without saying that, as what I said before indicates, there have to be positions available in order to recruit affirmative action targets. There are other things that get into the mix, and there have to be availability of candidates for that particular job. lt seems a very slow, frustrating process but I assure you that we are working on it. Mr.

Doer: I would ask then the Minister to table in this House-we would agree that there has to be positions available-all the positions of a professional nature that have been filled from May 9 on- indeed that would be over three months-all the positions that have been filled in a professional capacity in the department, and ho w many the department would view as being consistent with the objectives that the Minister stated. *

(1540) I would also ask for the Minister to please indicate to us, in light of the fact that the Minister of Labour (Mr. Connery) has indicated that he is running the whole show in terms of affirmative action in Government, given the fact that it has almost been four months since they have been in office, indeed over four months, when he intends on meeting with the Ministers to ensure that we are in fact achieving objectives.

So I would ask the Minister to table the number of positions filled since she has been in her position as Minister of a professional nature, and whether indeed she feels that these are consistent with the objectives that she has read out on the record. Mrs. Oleson: The Member should realize that there have not been a great number of hirings since we took office. I could undertake it under advisement to provide that information to the Mem ber. Mr. Chairman: On item 1. (g)

(1) Salaries-shall the item pass? Mr. Gulzar Cheema (Kildon an): Mr. Chairman, I have a few qu estions for the Minister as regards the affirmative action. My first question is that, since this Government has taken office, how many people from the target groups, especially from the minority groups, have been hired and how many applicants were there? As the Minister indicated that they have got qualified people, we would like to know the numbers and what are the criteria for selecting them. Mrs. Oleson: As I just indicated to the other Member for Concordia (Mr.

Doer) who was asking a similar question, we have not hired very many people since we took office. I could undertake to take it under advisement and get information for the Member, but I have not got it with me. Mr. Cheema: My next ques tion is, what are the mechanisms this Minister has in place to communicate with the target groups because I am aware that there are not many target groups who are aware of the various jobs available? Mrs.

Oleson: I have answered that question before for the critic for this area, but we do try to contact different groups of outreach programs to let them know that these jobs are available. They are bulletined jobs, of course, within the department. Some attempt is made of outreach to let all the people know that these jobs are available. Mr. Cheema: Would the Minister please table in this House the number and names of the organizations she had been in touch with in the past five months, and how many times they have communicated with them? Mrs.

Oleson: We could find that out for the Member, but we do advertise in ethnic newspapers. The Member may have noticed some of that. We could take his question under advisement. Mr. Cheema: Would the Minister tell us if there is any possi bili ty of retraining programs for this year to improve the qualification of these particular target groups? Mrs. Oleson: Would you repeat the question? Mr. Cheema: My question is this. Is there any program for retraining for these specific target groups as far as minority groups are concerned?

Are you thinking of establishing a new program like Core Area or just improve their education or their qualification in terms of establishing some kind of-the target group, you have to go and reach them and also make some program available to them. Are you considering any special programs? Mrs. Oleson: The programs I think that the Member is referring to come under my other department. Employment Services and Economic Security does have some programs, for instance, for newcomers and for people who have training in another country and wish to upgrade or be able to work here and use their professional skills.

The questions probably would be better directed to the Employment Services and Economic Security Estimates whenever we get there. Mr. Cheema: My final question for the Minister, can you give us the number of people you have appointed from the target group for the various boards to reflect the numbers of the minorities or the special target groups? 1368

Monday, September 19, 1988 Mrs. Oleson: I could undertake to do that later. The Community Services Department has not made any specific appointments to date. We are in the process of making some. We could get the information at some other time for the Mem ber. We do not have it at the moment. Mr. Jay Cowan (Churchill): The Minister has indicated that they have not hired very many people over the past little while or at least during her tenure as Minister. Could the Minister please indicate what the overall vacancy rate is for the department at present? Mrs. Oleson: lt is about 4.8 percent this week. Mr.

Cowan: The Minister indicated that there were a number of specific concerns with respect to affirmative action programs which would have to be dealt with by her department in order to ensure that more groups and individuals of groups that had been disadvantaged in the past and had not been able to participate fully in the employment opportunities of the department would be able to do so. She listed specifically systemic barriers among a number of others. Could she please give us some indication as to what she bel ieves those systemic barriers to be at present? Mrs.

Oleson: One of the things, of course, that first comes to mind, and I am sure the Member realizes, is attitudes toward hiring. Another thing would be access to the workplace. These things, I went over earlier for the critic for the Liberal Party, but there are many systemic barriers in hiring practices that come to mind that have been prevalent over the years. "They are part of the way things were done," should we say, but gradually, and far too gradually, things are changing.

Employers, both from Government and in the private sector, are becoming aware that people with handicaps certainly have a place in the work force and should be hired and can be hired for many jobs which were at one time considered impossible.

The harder we try to get workplaces accessible and to change the attitudes of employers in all walks of life, the more the affirmative action programs will work. 1t is far too slow a process, I know; we would all like it hurried up, but the point is we are working on it and hoping that in the future we will not even need to ask questions like that and have affirmative action programs that these things will be automatic. lt takes a long time to change attitudes. Mr. Jay Cowan (Chur ch ill): The Mi nister, Mr.

Chairperson, in her answer referenced a couple of times "access to workplaces." Perhaps she could be more specific as to what she sees to be specific systemic barriers that might be included under that particular category, as well as to elaborate a bit more on the attitudinal problems which she outlined in her answer as well. Mrs. Oleson: Mr. Chairman, there are many systemic barriers- barriers to access, rather. One of them, which of course comes readily to mind, would be access to a building for someone who is physically handicapped and in a wheelchair.

The steps alone in this building would be very difficult for someone who was handicapped in any way so that was why the ramp was built at the side to make it more accessible, not only for people in wheelchairs but others who had difficulty with steps. There are also problems with hearing. Hearing impaired have a problem in some workplaces and visually impaired people have problems in some workpla ces. All these have to be taken into consideration.

In the Decade of the Disabled, the coordinator of our program in this department is working on all those matters and will be reporting to me shortly some suggestions for what we can do in the future. Mr. Cowan: Mr. Chairperson, I think the Minister has indicated what she bel ieves to be some of the physical barriers that would prevent the disabled particularly and the handicapped from participating more fully in employment opportunities. The question I asked basically was systemic barriers and what does she believe to be some of the systemic barriers.

I would ask her if she could elaborate a bit on what she believes to be specifically systemic, not physical barriers. Mrs. Oleson: Mr. Chairman, I thought I had answered that in the previous question, but one of the things is attitudes and awareness by people of needs. Very often, a great many people go on their way and do not realize the need of someone who is handicapped or has a special particular need. Culture has been sometimes a barrier to positions, too, and we are certainly trying to eliminate that part of barriers to the workplace. Mr.

Cowan: Maybe the Minister would care to elaborate as to how she perceives culture as being a systemic barrier. Mrs. Oleson: 1t is not the culture itself that I referred to; it is the attitude to the culture. I think it is not too long ago that police forces, for instance, you could not belong to a police force unless you were a certain height and, of course, we all know that some races are not as tall as others. That is one item in many and that is the sort of thing I meant by cultural barriers. *

(1550) Mr. Cowan: Would the Minister consider the lack of equal education opportunities across the province to be a systemic barrier that would prevent certain groups-g eographic groups- from participating more fully in employment with the Government and would put them at a disadvantage? Mrs. Oleson: Mr. Chairman, yes, that is quite possibly a barrier to many people in jobs- education differences of people across the province, of people coming to the province, and all these things have to be looked at. Mr.

Cowan: What advice is the Minister therefore giving to her colleagues and to the Cabinet with respect to how she believes those systemic barriers should be eliminated so as to ensure further participation by groups that have been disadvantaged in the past in employment opportunities with the Government? 1369

Monday, September 19, 1988 Mrs. Oleson: Of course, I will not be repeating what I would be saying in Cabinet or caucus, but our caucus and Cabinet are very aware of these problems, these barriers, that have taken place in the past, and are working to eliminate them. We often have discussions on this. The Member may find it difficult to believe, but that nevertheless is the case. Mr. Cowan: I would not ask the Minister to provide the exact wording or even specific recommendations but, generically, what has she been saying? What sort of advice is she giving? Mrs.

Oleson: I can give him considerable advice on hiring of women; for instance, we need more women. We need more women in this Legislature, we need more women in managerial positions. I have often spoken on that subject. As the Members of my caucus and Cabinet are aware, these things come up for discussion and they are discussed very adamantly, not only by the women in caucus, by everyone. Mr.

Cowan: Would the Minister consider the appointment of more women as chairpersons of boards and commissions in the Government as being a worthy goal in reducing discrimination against women if that is one of the issues that she identified specifically? Mrs. Oleson: Yes. I certainly agree with more women being appointed as chairpersons, vice-chairpersons, to boards, and we are doing all we can to make that a reality. Mr. Cowan: Does the Minister agree that one of the systemic barriers that has long been a problem is the way in which we perceive different groups in society?

She said that perceptions and attitude were a distinct barrier. Would she agree that the way in which we perceive groups, the way in which we talk about groups, the way in which we identify groups would be a systemic barrier? Mrs. Oleson: I think that is part of the barrier, yes. Mr. Cowan: Could the Minister then provide to us again in a generic way what advice she has given to her First Minister, the Premier and Leader of her Party (Mr. Filmon) and to others within her Party with respect to their refusal to identify chairpersons as "chairpersons" and their strict adherence to the use of the word "chairman"?

Mrs. Oleson: I believe that our chairman prefers to be called the "chairman," and I believe in calling people what they would like to be called. I like to be called "Mrs." as opposed to "Ms." That is my personal preference. I think that it is important for politeness alone to address people in the way in which they wish to be addressed. An Honourable Member: Hear, Hear! Mr. Chairman: On the item (g)

(1) Salary, shall the item pass? Mr. Cowan: lt is fine for the Minister to stand here and say that she believes that people's personal desires and wants and needs should be consider ed . (lnterjection)-Well, if there is anyone in this House and just to put it on the record what the Member for Arthur (Mr. Downey) said, he does not like people's personal preferences being acknowledged, suggesting that we do not.

If ther e is any group in this Ho use that have consistently argued against the personal preferences of certain individuals in society being denied, being ridiculed and being objected to, it is the Mem bers of the Conservative Government. That is an historical fact and that is a current reality. All he says from his seat will not deny that fact, so I would suggest that he look more carefully in his own house when he suggests that one should look to and acknowledge the personal preferences of individuals within society. The specific question, though, was with respect to chai rpersons.

We have heard a fair amount of commentary about the Conservative Government's rejection of the term "chairperson." lt was something that we saw in this House from 1977 to 198 1 when the Premier of the province at that time got quite exercised in this House whenever someone would use the word "chairperson." We have seen it more recently when, on a number of occasions, we have used the word "chairperson" in this House and we hear from the Conservatives, chirping from their seats, "chairman, chairman, chairman, chairman." They seem to take particular offence to that word, notwithstanding whether or not a person might like to be called that, or might not like to be called that.

I would ask the Minister then, has she had discussions with her colleagues to reinforce her own personal appr oach that if people do wish to be called "chairperson," they should not object to the calling of them "chairperson." They should not object to the use of that gender-neutral word, and they should, in fact, encourage the use of that word in order to try to make the language a bit more in tune with what she says are the affirmative action policies of herself and her Government. Mrs.

Oleson: Members of our caucus, some of them use "chairman" to a man, they use "chairperson," they use "chair," on whatever occasion, whichever they feel that that person wishes to be addressed. We do not have a hard and fast rule of "thou shalt say-whatever" in our caucus, but the subject has been discussed and it is felt that if a person wants to be called a chairperson, fine, you call them a chairperson, if you know what they want to be called. Then, I guess, if you are working with this, you should find out what they want to be called.

If they want you to be called the chairman, then they could be called the chairman. If they wish to be addressed as "the chair," that is fine, too. Seems to me, someone wrote a letter to the Premier (Mr . Filmon). quite up set th at the females in the Conservative caucus wanted to be addressed as "Mrs." I really think that is my prerogative. If I want to be 1370

Monday, September 19, 1988 addressed as "Mrs," I think that is quite within my rights to ask someone to do so, but if someone addresses me as "Ms.," I do not get all upset about it. That is fine.

I do get a little upset, however, when I get letters that say "Dear Sir." I do get a little upset about that, and it has happened on occasion, many occasions, because- back we go to the systemic barriers and the attitudes that people somehow automatically think when they are writing to a Member of the Legislature or a Member of the House of Commons that it would be "Dear Sir." Someone, I am sure, women in various businesses get the same sort of attitude.

People address them as "Sir." I have shown up at various occasions and said I was there representing my Party, and they looked around to see where my husband was because they thought he would be the one that would be representing. All these things happen to us and I guess, if you really were thin-skinned about it, you would get terribly upset.

I try not to, but I do, as I say, get a little upset when they do the "Dear Sir" routine, or address me as "Mr." on a letter. lt does not show anything terribly wrong except that they did not find out really who they were writing to and perhaps that is more of an insult than the fact that they used the wrong designation. I think that to put people all in the same mold and say you have to say "chairperson" or "chairman" or whatever is rather a mistake. If they wish to be called "chairman," then I think that is their right to be called that. • (16 00) Mr.

Cowan: Not to belabour the point, but I do want to ask one more question about this specific issue and then perhaps a couple of questions on some related issues. If one did not know what an individual wanted to be called-chair , chairperson or chairman-w hat name would be the inclination on the part of the Member to use in that particular instance? Mrs. Oleson: I guess, actually, probably my age would show because I probably would be inclined to blurt out "chairman" because I have been used to that for years and years.

I guess maybe it is hard to teach old dogs new tricks, but I am being persuaded; I often use "chairperson." The first inclinations I have, because of years of conditioning, I guess, is to say "chairman." Mr. Cowan: Which makes my point, Mr.

Chairperson, why it is extremely important that we start to use words like "chairperson" so that we retrain ourselves, and there is nothing different about the Member who just suggested that we are all brought up to use certain terms in certain ways and they tend to stick with us and they, in fact, do continue on in our own minds certain perceptions that if a person is in a position of authority, a chair, then that person is a male; just as she said that people automatically-l isten carefully to what I am saying- Mrs. Oleson: Just automatically male. 1371 Mr.

Cowan: I am saying that is exactly right, and the use of the word "chairman" continues that process, because when you use the word "chairman," you are suggesting that the person in a position of authority is automatically going to be a male. When you use a gender-neutral word such as the word "chairperson," then you are leaving the visualization of what that person may or may not be to the individual that is hearing what you are saying, and I think it is extremely important.

Just as she said she gets vitally concerned and agitated even when people refer to her as sir, without knowing who she is, because they expect that a person in a position of power in a legislative sense or someone who was elected would be a male.

The same appl ies to the use of the word "chairperson" in that if we are going to continue to rely upon the word "chairman" and not try to change a language, not go out of our way to teach ourselves, each of us, new tricks because I had to learn to use the word "chairperson" as I think everybody in this Chamber has probably had to learn to use the word "chairperson," and that meant learning-p erson. Mr. Mark Minenko (Seven Oaks): Point of order, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman: The Member for Seven Oaks, on a point of order. Mr.

Minenko: I am just wondering if the Chairman could advise this particular subsection on what line of the Estimates we are presently on . Mr. Chairman: The Member does not have a point of order. The Member for Churchill. Mr. Cowan: Just to address a comment, I hope it was not flippant and I hope the use of the word "chairman" was not flippant, but just to take note of the fact that the use of the word "chairman" by the Member, and also to address the issue, we are on affirmative action- Mrs. Oleson: Seven Oaks. Mr. Cowan: The Member for Seven Oaks (Mr. Minenko).

Yes, we should identify who it was that made that statement. We are on affirmative action, and part of the systemic barriers that we discussed earlier, which was brought to the discussion by the Minister, is the use of the- Mr. Minenko: Mr. Chairman. Mr. Cowan: Try again, the best out of two. Mr. Chairmam: The Member for Seven Oaks, on a point of order. Mr. Minenko: I certainly would ask that the Honourable Member for Churchill (Mr. Cowan) retract any comments that he just made with respect to suggesting that any comments that I have just made were flippant.

I think it certainly imputes some particular motive there.

Monday, September 19, 1988 Mr. Chairman: The Member for Churchill, on the point of order. Mr. Cowan: Mr. Ch airperson, imputes no motive, perhaps it betrays an attitude.

To continue on with my comments with respect to gender-neutral language and the fact that we have to change our own attitude and our own language to encourage the use of gender-neutrallanguage, I would just say that I am pleased to hear that the Minister is attempting to change her own habits, as must we all, and that is no reflection on her at all-i t is, as a matter of fact, a compliment-and I would hope that she would use her awareness and her enlightenment on this particular subject to have some long, serious talks with some of her colleagues that consistently in this Chamber and elsewhere object to the use of that gender-neutral word.

I hope that she would take the time to help them become a bit more enlightened as well. In her reply to questions by the Liberal critic, she suggests that one of the other policies that they are undertaking with respect to affirmative action is tying affirmative action to the budget process, and she also referenced that with respect to her answers to the Member for Concordia (Mr. Doer), my Leader. I would ask her if she could be more definitive about how her Government is attempting to tie the two together. Mrs.

Oleson: I have asked the department to give me a report, and to see if there is an implication for the budget on this item. Mr. Cowan: Perhaps she could be a bit more definitive than that. What sort of impli cations? Are the y approaching it from a negative or a po sit ive perspective? Are they attempting to find ways to eliminate barriers in the budget process that may work against or mitigate against affirmative action programs that would normally take place? Mrs.

Oleson: One of the things that could be looked at, for the information of the Member, is outreach hiring and cross-cultural implications of hiring and just to see if there are any implications for the budget. Mr. Cowan: How would one deal with those implications then? Is she saying that her department is prepared to set aside the normal budgetary process, and the normal budgetary constraints to put in place effective outreach programs that would go beyond the practice as it now stands? Mrs.

Oleson: What I want to know is what training needs that may come up, and whether with outreach to cross-culturally, if there needs to be something in the recruitment, something in the training that would impact on the budget, and how we would deal with that. That is really all that I meant. Mr. Cowan: How would she suggest that they do deal with those implications if they were to be identified? Mrs.

Oleson: Training would be, as I said, one of the items that- these are the preliminary things that I want to have a look at to see what outreach program might be useful, if we could fit it into the budget, what training might be necessary and, specifically in this department. Of course, my other department looks at this too with a view to programs, and perhaps if he saw the Minister of both, there might be some coordination between the two. Mr. Cowan: What specific indication of those budgetary anomalies would we find in the Estimates before us?

In other words, she has indicated that she wants to reduce systemic barriers. One way of doing that, of course, is to provide training because the lack of education, the lack of specialized training in certain areas to certain groups within society has long been known as a systemic barrier.

She wants to undertake more outreach, and that is important because it has long been known that there are certain groups that do not apply for jobs because they have become so frustrated in the past by not being able to obtain jobs that they literally turn off to new opportunities, and one has to go out and overcome that frustration in the past, and one has to literally reach out-to turn the word around- reach out to them and say, listen, there is a different approach, we are trying to do things differently; please come and give us a chance as we are prepared to give you a chance in this new area, the same chance that all of us deserve in life.

So those two activities cost a fair amount of money. They are not activities that one can undertake without addressing some budgetary implications. They are ones that one cannot undertake without setting aside some enhanced funding in those areas to ensure that they are done well. * (1 610) So my question to the Minister is, in the Estimates that we have before us, where do we see those specific programs?

Can she be as detailed as is possible because this is a review of the detail of the Estimates, as to what programs are in place, what programs are anticipated and the cost of those particular programs; and also what evaluation mechanisms have been put in place to monitor those programs to ensure that they are having a desired effect. Mrs. Oleson: There is nothing in these Estimates except for the ongoing activities that have been taking place before.

But the Member makes my point when he said that there are problems with some cultural groups and it does require funds. lt would require funds to do an outreach program, and it would require staff years. That, of course, is the very reason I have asked for this information. lt might not be able to be fitted into a budget immediately; it might have to be phased in, but these are things that I want to look at and be aware of before preparing a budget for next year. Mr. Cowan: We will then look forward to asking the same questions when we review the budget and the Estimates next year.

However, I must say that it is somewhat regrettable that there is not more in this particular budget because this is an issue where, I believe, there was some momentum being generated 1372

Monday, September 19, 1988 by the previous administration, not all that could have been done .- (Interjection)- The Member says , very little, and I think she will find over time that when put side by side with what was done from '77 and'81 and what will be done from '88 on, it will seem like an immense amount. But having said that , having said that by comparison it will seem like major efforts , I can tell you that not enough was done .

That is no reflection on the previous administration, that is a reflection on the society in which we live , where so much needs to be done because so little has been done over a long period of time that no administration , no government no matter how well intentioned , no matter how capable they are, could hope to address all the needs in a few short years . So we believe that we put in place programs that provided for some momentum .

We would like to see that momentum continued and that momentum is not continued by maintaining the status quo, that momentum is continued at the very least by incremental progression or some more action than was done previously, and it is also maintained by ensuring that ✓ one is always looking at innovat ive ways to accomplish the same goals and constantly monitoring and evaluating that which had been done . I do not see that as having been done .

Now to not be particularly harsh on the Minister , one could use the excuse that they had a very short time during which they could prepare their Estimates , and that they had a lot of ideas that they just could not include in this particular set of Estimates. But having stated that as being a possible excuse, I want to say that when this Government found it necessary to give back some money to lnco, they found a way to do that. When this Government found it necessary to give back some money to the CPR, they found a way to do that.

When this Government , the Conservative Government found it necessary to give money back to businesses through the deferral and the progressive elimination of the health and education levy, a policy that they are supported with by the Liberals on, they found a way to do that. When this Government, the Conservative Government wanted to find ways to do all sorts of • things , they found ways to do that in a very short period of time.

So the fact that they have not found ways to enhance the Affirmative Action Program with this depar tme nt previously tells me that this was not as much a priority as were the other things they found ways to do. That concerns me because I represent a constituency where there is a large need for affirmative action, outreach programs , for training programs . We implemented a number-there were others we would have liked to have been able to implement and there are many more that need to be implem ente d .

I would encourage the Minister to act as quickly as possible, not to wait till next year's Estimates , not to wait till next year's Budget, but to begin immediately to determine how it is they can enhance their affirmative action activities because it is so vitally important to so many groups within society , not just those within my own constituency but to so many other groups acro ss the province who require an aggressive approach to a long-standing problem .

So with that one note of regret and hopefully a note of encouragement, I would ask the Minister if she could indicate to us how she intends to work with the different groups which represent disadvantaged individuals in society to ensure that any new affirmative action programs and , optimistically, I tak e it from her comments that there may be some new programs, and the new programs reflect not only the needs and the aspirations as seen by the Government but the needs and the aspirations as perceived and as enunciated by the particular groups out there that are going to be the recipients of those programs. Mrs.

Oleson: Yes, I am interested in input from various groups at how this program could be enhanced. We are progressing-the Member may not think so-in the department with this matter. We are certainly not going backwards as he seemed to indicate . The progr ams that were there before are still there. As I was saying earlier , I have asked the department to give me some indication of how it would impact on next year 's Budget. I would be happy to have suggestions of how these things could be worked in and we are working on it. Hon. Edward Connery (Minister of Labour) : Mr.

Chairman , I would like to say a few words on affirmative action. As the Members know, that affirmative action falls under the Department of Labour . When I took over the department and took a look at what has been taking place-I do not care how far back you want to go but in the previous administration , who tried to exhibi t a strong concern about affirmative action, I took a look at what had been accomplished under their jurisdiction .

I can guarantee you that we saw a lot of rhetoric, we saw a lot of lip-service, we saw the Leader of the NOP stand up in this Legislature and say that he had signed two documents on affirmative action. One of the greatest drawbacks to affirmative action in the Civil Service was the MGEA -the Leader of the NOP was president at that time -and he had a lot of systemic backdraws to women and to the Affirmative Action people, the physically handicapped , the visible minoritie s, and to the Native groups. We did not see much action .

So when we took over Government , we had a long discussion with the Civil Servic e who ran the Affirmative Action Program. They did have a position called the Director for Affirmative Action . The program was not working . We discussed how we could streamline it. The action of affirmative action to make it work, we have to put it in to the department of the personnel of each ministry and to ensure that all of the personnel people realized that affirmative action was strong with this Government and that they had an obligation to ensure that people from the affirmative action target group were hired .

We had a meeting just today with Mr. Hart and Terry Edgeworth, who is the Assistant Deputy Minister of the Civil Service responsible for Human Resources. We have elevated the position of who reports for affirmative action from the director to an Assistant Deputy Minister . We think, with the various committees , that we will have an opportunity to ensure that all of the target 1373

Monday, September 19, 1988 groups of affirmative action will see their rightful place. lt is going to take some time. * (16 20) I think Members opposite realize that because of the no-layoff clause-a nd we would not fire people anyway to implement affirmative action, because that would not be in a positive way. So it is through attrition - (I nterjection)-oh, you liked that one, did you, John? That is okay. lt is through attrition and people quitting, going to other careers, that there will be openings for people in the Civil Service. We are trying to ensure that the Affirmative Action target group get a fair share. What is a fair share? I am not sure. I have talked to the cri

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	34-1-39a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	34th 1st hansardpdf 39a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	4258fc5082877e6461c219ee3830161cdebf3732

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