April 20, 2005 SOCIAL SERVICES COMMITTEE

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Mr. Wallace Young, MHA for St.

Barbe, replaces Mr. Clyde Jackman, MHA for Burin-Placentia West, and Mr. Percy

Barrett, MHA for Bellevue, replaces Mr. Kelvin Parsons, MHA for Burgeo &

LaPoile.

The Committee met at 7:00 p.m in the House of Assembly.

CHAIR (Wiseman): Order, please!

I think we are all here. I welcome you to this discussion tonight, as we do

the Estimates for three - I will get to the procedural kinds of things in a

moment, but we are going to do the areas that Minister Burke is responsible for,

which would be the Status of Women, Newfoundland and Labrador Housing, and the

Department of HRLE.

For the members of the Committee, you each have copies of the minutes from

this morning's session. Before we proceed with tonight's session, we need to

entertain a motion to accept those minutes.

So moved by Mr. French.

Is there a seconder for that? Mr. Butler?

MR. BUTLER: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: Won't you? I saw you nod your head, so that seemed to be in

agreement.

MR. BUTLER: (Inaudible).

MS GOUDIE: I will second it.

CHAIR: Seconded by Ms Goudie.

All those in favour, aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: Motion carried.

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR: Thank you very much.

Before we begin, this evening is a little bit different than a couple of the

others that we have had. As I said a moment ago, the way I phrased it, we are

going to deal with the areas that Minister Burke is responsible for, and they

are broken down into a couple of sections.

Newfoundland and Labrador Housing, which is found on page 247 of the

Estimates, we are going to do that particular heading first and dispense of that

one firstly. Next, we will move into the Status of Women. The Status of Women is

found in the Estimates

section under the Executive Council, which is on pages 19

and 20 of the Estimates. When we deal with the Executive Council section, we are

only going to deal with the two subheads that are applicable to the Women's

Council, so we will not be dealing with any motions with respect to all of the

Estimates on Executive Council. When we are through that, then we will go

directly to the department, which is found on page 205. Within that, then, we

will deal with the Labour Relations piece first and move to the rest.

Those are the terms of the sequencing. Because they are found in three

different sections of the Estimates book, the voting procedure, we will deal

with them in a different fashion than we have dealt with others.

Minister, before we start, could you assist us by maybe introducing your

staff?

MS BURKE: Okay.

I am not good with left and right, but I guess to my far left, if you are

playing the piano from this side of the House, is the Parliamentary Assistant,

Dave Denine. Then we have Mary Marshall with Newfoundland and Labrador Housing,

and Dave Aker with Newfoundland and Labrador Housing. I will continue on. In my

seat we have Joe O'Neill, CEO of the Labour Relations Agency; Rebecca Roome,

Deputy Minister of HRLE; Dave Roberts, Assistant Deputy Minister of HRLE;

Heather MacLellan, Assistant Deputy Minister of the Women's Policy Office;

Jennifer Jeans, Assistant Deputy Minister of HRLE; and Jacqueline Howard,

Communications with HRLE.

CHAIR: Thank you.

For the benefit of your staff, I will ask the Committee if they would

introduce themselves. If we could start with Ms Goudie, please?

MS GOUDIE: Kathy Goudie, MHA for Humber Valley.

MR. FRENCH: Terry French, MHA for Conception Bay South and Holyrood.

MR. YOUNG: Wally Young, MHA for St. Barbe, sitting in for Clyde Jackman.

MR. COLLINS: Randy Collins, MHA for Labrador West.

MR. BUTLER: Roland Butler, MHA for the District of Port de Grave.

MR. BARRETT: Percy Barrett, MHA for Bellevue, celebrating today the

sixteenth anniversary of sitting in the House of Assembly, April 20, 1989.

CHAIR: Congratulations, Mr. Barrett.

Minister, would you like to have a few opening comments before we start

calling the heads and have some discussion?

MS BURKE: No, I would like to get started into Newfoundland and Labrador

Housing.

CHAIR: Okay.

I would ask the clerk if he would call the first head under the Newfoundland

and Labrador Housing Corporation.

CLERK: Subhead, Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation, 1.1.01.

CHAIR: Shall 1.1.01. carry?

Mr. Butler, in what sequence do you want to start?

MR. BUTLER: Mr. Barrett will be going ahead with Newfoundland and

Labrador Housing. Why I asked our colleague from Labrador West was because I

know he said today he had a time frame or something.

OFFICIAL: (Inaudible).

MR. BUTLER: All right, sir.

CHAIR: For the benefit of people in Hansard, I would ask, if you would,

to just identify yourself so they can turn the microphones on when you start to

speak, if you would, please.

Mr. Barrett.

MR. BARRETT: Yes, I have some questions for the minister in terms of the

line by line in terms of Newfoundland and Labrador Housing.

The operating budget for the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation

has been decreased by $260,000. Does that mean a cut in programs, or layoffs?

Why the reduction?

MS BURKE: Basically, there has been a reduction and these savings that

are noted here on this line will be able to achieve these savings through some

administrative efficiencies and probably some staff realignments and

adjustments.

MR. BARRETT: Will there be any layoffs?

MS BURKE: There potentially could be, but at this point, depending on the

attrition and the vacancies, we should be able to meet that goal of the

$260,000.

MR. BARRETT: Do you mean by attrition? If someone retires, you are not

going to replace them?

MS BURKE: Depending on the position, if we are able to not impact the

programs. If there is a retirement and that can be assumed within the workload,

that is where we will be looking for these efficiencies.

MR. BARRETT: You still haven't answered the question. Will there be any

layoffs?

MS BURKE: I cannot guarantee that there will not be any layoffs, but it

is not the intention to do layoffs. If we can achieve these efficiencies through

attrition and through staff realignment, or through natural progression of

staff, if they decide to leave for reasons probably other than retirement, if we

can maintain the vacancies and get our savings that way, that would be the

preferred way to do it.

MR. BARRETT: Okay.

The amount is $260,000. We are all aware that staff - we know that the

salaries have been frozen, but have step progressions for employees been frozen?

MS BURKE: No.

MR. BARRETT: Okay, step progressions have not been frozen, so the budget

is decreased by $260,000. How much money is allocated in extra salaries for the

step progressions?

MS BURKE: Most of the staff at Housing have been there in the long term,

so the step progressions may not apply, but there is approximately $20,000 set

aside for the step progressions.

MR. BARRETT: Twenty thousand dollars? That is all the step progressions

with Newfoundland and Labrador Housing? All the employees are seasoned employees

and they do not qualify for - how many employees would be in that category?

MS BURKE: In the category of -

MR. BARRETT: They have step progression. How many employees do not have

step progressions?

MS BURKE: They would all have step progressions, unless they are at the

top. If you are not at the top, you would qualify.

MR. BARRETT: I know, but how many employees qualify for step progression

and how many employees do not qualify?

MS BURKE: You mean, how many are at the top versus how many are not at

the top?

MR. BARRETT: Right.

MS BURKE: I don't have that number.

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MS BURKE: There are approximately ten employees right now who are not at

the top of their step progression at Housing.

MR. BARRETT: Okay. How many employees are there at the Corporation,

including permanent, temporary, contractual, and seasonal employees?

MR. AKER: There are approximately 250 administrative staff in the

Corporation. In our maintenance staff, there are approximately another 100.

MR. BARRETT: There are 250 administrative staff?

MR. AKER: Yes.

MR. BARRETT: How many did you say were in maintenance?

MR. AKER: Maintenance, about 100 employees.

MR. BARRETT: So, there are 100 employees in maintenance and there are 250

administering the 100 employees?

MR. AKER: No, the 250 administrative staff work in our offices. That is

not the number that just includes management, for example.

MR. BARRETT: What would the breakdown be in management and unionized

employees?

MR. AKER: Out of the 250, approximately sixty managers, and the balance

would be members of CUPE or IBW.

MR. BARRETT: Have you laid off any employees in rural Newfoundland in the

last fiscal year? Were there some reductions in the offices in Gander? There has

not been any reductions in any offices at NLHC in the last fiscal year?

MS BURKE: No.

MR. BARRETT: No reduction of any staff anywhere?

MS BURKE: Unless it was attrition, someone retired.

MR. BARRETT: Yes, but did you fill the positions? If it was attrition,

and you did not fill the positions, it was a layoff.

MS BURKE: No, it is not.

MR. BARRETT: Well, if you did not refill the position and left the

position vacant, which is a layoff.

MS BURKE: But we did not lay anyone off.

MR. BARRETT: It is just what you mean by it. How many employees did you

have the year before and how many do you have now? If you had 250 and 100, how

many were in the previous year?

MR. AKER: I do not have the details in front of me, but we have dropped

approximately ten staff positions over the last fiscal year. Those employees

were not laid off. They were a combination of temporary contracts, which were

not renewed, and some people who resigned to pursue other employment.

MR. BARRETT: The positions that were held by temporary, who is doing that

work now?

CHAIR: Excuse me, if you wouldn't mind, just identify yourself before

you speak in the microphone so we can - number one, your microphone can come on

and we can accurately record you in Hansard and attribute your comments to the

person who is making them.

Thank you.

MS MARSHALL: Those positions where people have left, either temporary

positions or people who have found other employment, the work is being done by

other employees. There were efficiencies achieved and those positions have been

determined, by and large, that they are not really required. There may be still

some that may be filled in the future but right now - we have not laid off

anybody in the last year.

MR. BARRETT: But you have not filled the temporary positions which were -

what did the temporary positions do within the corporation that now somebody

else can do?

MS MARSHALL: We had some clerical staff who left during the year and

those jobs have been absorbed by others in the organization. With different use

of approaches, technology and other approaches, we have been able to achieve

efficiencies in those areas.

MR. BARRETT: Where were these temporary employees? What locations were

they laid off?

MS MARSHALL: I do not have that detail.

MR. BARRETT: You do not have the details?

MS MARSHALL: No.

MR. BARRETT: Were they in St. John's or were they somewhere else?

MS MARSHALL: There were some in St. John's. They may have all been St.

John's, those temporaries.

WITNESS: Again, I do not have the details.

MS MARSHALL: We do not have that detail with us.

MR. BARRETT: These questions that I am not getting any answers to, can

you provide me with the details and the breakdown in each office and the number

of temporary employees? The number of temporary employees and the number of

permanent employees in each office with Newfoundland and Labrador Housing? How

many were there the previous year? How many are there this year?

MR. AKER: That information is all in our budget and is available.

MR. BARRETT: Will you provide the information to me?

MR. AKER: Yes.

MR. BARRETT: Could you tell me the present salary and the benefits of the

Chairman and CEO, Mr. Simms?

MR. AKER: I do not have his exact salary. I believe the Chairman of the

Corporation, the range of the salary is approximately $100,000 to approximately

$130,000 per year.

MR. BARRETT: Is he getting the full salary or has there been a different

negotiated contract?

MR. AKER: I have not seen his contract.

MR. BARRETT: What is your position at Newfoundland and Labrador Housing?

MR. AKER: My name is Dave Aker. I am the Assistant Comptroller with the

Housing Corporation.

MR. BARRETT: You are the comptroller at Newfoundland and Labrador Housing

and you do not know what the salary of the Chief Executive Officer is? Does the

minister know?

MS BURKE: Yes, the salary is about $120,000.

MR. BARRETT: Okay. I am just asking the questions, that is all.

What is the budget for maintenance for Newfoundland and Labrador Housing for

this year?

MS BURKE: Can you repeat that question please?

MR. BARRETT: What is the budget for maintenance within Newfoundland and

Labrador Housing this year?

MR. AKER: The budget for maintenance is $8 million.

MR. BARRETT: Is there any difference than last year?

MR. AKER: No, there is not.

MR. BARRETT: Has there been any reduction in the number of rental units

this year?

MR. AKER: No, there has not.

MR. BARRETT: The same number of units as every other year?

MR. AKER: That is correct. We have not reduced any rentals, except in

cases where some of the units have become vacant, and these are just in smaller

communities. If there is no demand for the houses, we do sell some of the units.

The last few years we have sold perhaps ten to fifteen on average, out of a

total portfolio of about 5,800 social housing rentals.

MR. BARRETT: All these units, they were sold by public tender?

MS BURKE: Yes.

MR. AKER: Yes, they were.

MR. BARRETT: One other question. How many applications have you received

for the Provincial Home Repair Program this year?

MS BURKE: Do you want to take that, Dave?

MR. DENINE: The number of applications is 4,581.

WITNESS: They were not necessarily received this year?

MR. DENINE: No, not necessarily received this year, but that is the total

that is in the offices and waiting lists from May 5, 2005.

WITNESS: That is the number that are on the current waiting list.

MR. DENINE: Current waiting list.

MR. BARRETT: There are 4,581 people on the waiting list.

MR. DENINE: On the waiting list, yes.

MR. BARRETT: How many of these would be emergency repairs?

MR. DENINE: No, if they are emergency that is done right away.

MR. BARRETT: Okay.

MR. DENINE: There is a certain protocol in which you - when you apply for

your application, as Mr. Butler knows, because he has talked to me a couple of

times on it. If there are emergencies and someone is at risk, that is done right

away.

MR. BARRETT: Okay. So there are 4,581 on the waiting list?

MR. DENINE: Yes.

MR. BARRETT: How many do you anticipate that you will be able to do this

year out of that list?

MR. DENINE: About 2,000.

MR. BARRETT: Two thousand. So, there are 2,581 who will be waiting after

this year?

MR. DENINE: Yes, no different from any other year. Every time you are

going back a couple of more years anyhow.

MR. BARRETT: Okay. How much funding did the corporation receive from the

federal government for the Provincial Home Repair Program and what is the

Province's share?

WITNESS: Three point eight, 50-50.

MR. BARRETT: Fifty, fifty.

MR. DENINE: In that, in some other provinces of Canada they do not get

any. They do not have to put anything in. They do not put anything in.

MS BURKE: (Inaudible) formula we are in, in this Province, as far as the

provincial contribution, we pay more in the Provincial Home Repair Program than

the other provinces. We are at 50-50, the closest to us is 75-25, or no

provincial contribution and 100 per cent federal. So, we actually have the worst

agreement with the federal government of any other province.

MR. BARRETT: But in other provinces the repair program is not

administered by the provincial government or by the Housing Corporation for the

government, it is done by the municipalities.

MS BURKE: Well, there are some. But in fairness, this Province has not

gotten the best deal from the federal government that other provinces have

gotten and no matter how the program is administered, the provincial share in

other provinces is less than what we are paying.

MR. BARRETT: Yes, but are you aware of the municipal share in the other

provinces because there is a great municipal share in other provinces towards

the provincial -

MS BURKE: Well, I am just speaking to the provincial share.

MR. BARRETT: Yes, but the point is, you have to realize that the taxation

in other provinces is a bit different than in Newfoundland and Labrador. The

municipalities assume responsibility for housing in a lot of the jurisdictions

in other provinces.

MS BURKE: I am just reviewing the federal funding that I saw comparing

Newfoundland and Labrador to other provinces at federal-provincial meetings that

I attended, which did not include the formula to the municipalities. I am just

talking about the formula the federal government has with the other provinces in

comparison to the formula we have in this Province.

MR. BARRETT: Why the difference in terms of the share?

MS BURKE: Well, I do not know, and I did not sign on to the agreement. It

was signed on, I guess, when the former Administration was in but I feel that,

at that time - I do not know what the factors where, why they signed on, and I

cannot speak to that but I can speak now. I feel that we have the worst deal in

Canada with regards to the Provincial Home Repair Program. It would be my wish

if we could get out of it and get the same deal the other provinces have.

I have had meetings with the federal minister. There are other issues with

Housing with regards to our relationship with the federal government. I think

that other provinces have more appropriate deals and I would like to sign on to

some of those deals. I have spoken with them. I plan to follow up on it, and we

will pursue it.

I just think that some of the agreements we have signed on in Housing, we

have not signed on - that I have inherited, as the minister - I do not think are

necessarily the same as what other provinces have and I want to make sure that

this Province, in our dealings with Housing and the federal government, that we

have, at least, as equal deals as what the other provinces have, if not better.

MR. BARRETT: Is the money allocated on a per capita basis or is it

allocated -

MS BURKE: Well, it depends. There are a number of programs that are out

there. One that comes to mind is the Affordable Housing Program. Under the

Affordable Housing Program, which was signed in 1997, the federal government -

in 2001, and not 1997. I will get to the 1997 deal in a second.

In 2001 we signed on to the Affordable Housing initiative. What that means is

that for every dollar the federal government puts up, we also match it 50-50. In

essence, we have not put any money up to Affordable Housing. We signed on to a

program in 2001 that, basically, we have no money to put up to match. What the

federal government has been allowing us to do, to match contributions, was to

take in some $4 million that had been previously spent in Labrador. We could use

that and say that was our matching funds. So, they kind of found a loophole to

put us in this agreement that we should never have been into because we could

not have matched the funds in the first place.

Further to that, there is more expense in Housing, under the Affordable

Housing initiative, than just the money upfront to build these new places or to

renovate existing buildings. That is what it applies to. As the provincial

government, we continue to pay the supports to these Affordable Housing units

that are built, whether we have to pay it through rent, through an HRLE client,

or we have to pay it through Health and Community Services to provide the

supports to allow someone to live in these housing units. I think the federal

government should be able to take into account our contribution as to what we

will pay to maintain that housing for the next five, ten, fifteen, twenty years.

They are making us match the funds up front. We do not have the funds to match

it. We only have funding because they gave us approval of stuff that had been

passed beforehand. I think they need to realize that we do make a contribution

to Housing and that every dollar we put into housing, whether it is in the

capital cost upfront or to maintain that Housing for the next few years, then I

think there should be recognition of that.

In addition to that - that is one Housing agreement that I do not necessarily

agree with and I think we could do better. In 1997 we got into a deal regarding

social housing. At the time we got into it, our share, what was coming to us

from the federal government, was $55 million a year. From 1997 until 2038 there

will be a funding formula that shows a reduction every year into the federal

contribution, up until 2038 when there is no more money coming from the federal

government. What we got in return, other than, I think, a $3 million signing

bonus at the time, was the fact that now when the mortgages are paid off on some

of the social housing units, they hand them over to us. So, they are giving us

an asset. But, in reality, they are handing us over a liability. They are

handing us over homes that were probably built in the 1950s. They are not in

good condition; that we need to repair.

They are handing this over to us, the mortgage, and saying: Here you go, now

you are responsible. I just do not think that is the best deal for this

Province, and I do not see why they are handing us forty and fifty-year-old

homes and calling it assets. I think they have to come to the table and give us

a better deal on social housing. I will also say that not all the provinces

signed onto it. Not all the provinces jumped to get these aging housing units

handed over to them and a decrease over that span of forty years of $55 million.

We are going to head into an era in housing in the next ten, fifteen, twenty

years where we cannot sustain it. We are signing on to this deal that, frankly,

I do not think makes a whole lot of sense.

MR. BARRETT: You are telling me that houses in Mount Pearl and St. John's,

where the mortgage is paid off, that these are a liability?

MS BURKE: A fifty-year-old wooden house with a boiler system to heat them

on Cashin Avenue is probably not an asset.

MR. BARRETT: You mean to say that a piece of land on Cashin Avenue - that

house when it was built on Cashin Avenue probably cost - if you say they are as

old as they are - about $17,000. A piece of land on Cashin Avenue today, if you

can buy it for $17,000, Madam Minister, I would like to buy some parcels.

MS BURKE: Well, we can sell them but the families will have to move out.

I mean, these are social housing units. If we want to move the families out and

take the units away, I suppose we could do that and take the cash, but I think

that we have an obligation to continue to provide social housing for people. I

am not really in favour - I mean, if we have to do it down the road and sell

them all and tell people you have to move out because we need the money for the

land. But, you know, if you have homes that were built in the 1950s or - we also

have homes that were built in the 1970s that are basically wrapped in plastic

and do not have the proper ventilation. If these houses are damp or wet or need

ventilation or moldy, I do not really consider that a big asset to hand over to

us. I would rather see the federal government keep sending us the money so we

can do the proper maintenance and maintain these homes. We cannot sell them.

MR. BARRETT: Madam Minister, what I am saying is that a house at that

particular time on Cashin Avenue cost the government to build, probably, $15,000

to $16,000. It is an asset. You might have to build new houses to accommodate

the people but it is an asset. If you are saying the federal government is

passing you over something that is not an asset -

MS BURKE: Well, if we are collecting rent-geared income and we are having

to maintain those homes - it is an asset if we go out and sell them, I guess, if

someone wants to buy social housing units, but the people who are going to lose

out there are the clients.

MR. BARRETT: Yes, but what I am saying is, the way that you worded it was

that they were passing you over something that was not an asset.

MS BURKE: I would rather have the money. It is a liability. I would

rather have the money. The federal government gave us money to maintain social

housing units.

MR. BARRETT: Yes, but you are going to have to do the housing - if you

are saying they are in such bad condition, there should not be people living in

them anyway. If these housing units are in such bad condition, why do you have

people living in them?

MS BURKE: We maintain them, but the point of the matter is, there is

constant maintenance on them.

MR. BARRETT: I mean, if you repair the roof on a house, you do not do it

every year.

MS BURKE: Well, if we no longer have money coming in - if we are losing

$55 million from our budget, we will have less money to do maintenance on aging

houses. The houses are not getting any newer, they are getting older, and we are

going to have less money to do the maintenance on them.

MR. BARRETT: Anyway, I am finished.

MR. COLLINS: I just have a couple of questions, Minister. Welcome to you

and all of your staff people.

First of all, I do not know when there will be any future social housing

being built in the Province, but I would just like to say, and I think I said it

last year, that I certainly hope that any new housing projects that may go ahead

certainly would not take the route that they have been taking in the past and

put in one area, lumped together, and all of the social stigma and everything

else that goes with that. They should be interspersed throughout our communities

so that they are regular homes, with regular people, with regular neighbours. I

think it is a shame, what occurred during the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s.

Unfortunately, it is something that does not encourage people, and it makes them

feel worse, and their children, about living in social housing.

What is the difference between the availability rate in the Province and the

vacancy rate with Newfoundland and Labrador Housing?

MS MARSHALL: Actually, I just want to clarify your question. You want to

know the difference in vacancies in different parts of the Province. Is that

your question?

MR. COLLINS: Yes, like overall in the Province. I do not know if you have

it like that.

MS MARSHALL: I do not have an overall number but I know that in parts of

the Province, particularly in St. John's, actually all the Avalon, and around

the Corner Brook area, there are waiting lists to try and get into social

housing. In Labrador West and also in Perrault Place in Goose Bay we have what

we refer to as chronic vacancies, which is really unusual. We did have a problem

in Marystown in a similar manner, but we were able to enter into an agreement to

rent some of those to people associated with Marystown's Shipyard right now.

Generally, elsewhere in the Province, most of our units are filled all of the

time, with the exception, as Dave Aker has already indicated, that occasionally

we may have an individual house in an isolated community that had been built

probably for a specific family back in the 1970s or 1980s, and there is no

demand in those communities. We have sold those off as individual houses. With

the exception of Goose Bay, Labrador City, and had been Marystown and may become

Marystown again, we do not have vacancies.

MR. COLLINS: I know in Labrador West, one of the - and I do not have too

many calls on Newfoundland and Labrador Housing, but from time to time I have

received calls - one of the problems that we have run into from time to time is

trying to find places that are wheelchair accessible and can accommodate persons

with disabilities.

Is there a special program in place that would allow for the conversion - I

know, there have been some - but is there a special program in place for

conversion of houses, to make them either wheelchair accessible or accommodate

persons with disabilities?

MS. MARSHALL: There is no program per se. Under the Provincial Home

Repair Program, individuals who want to make their own homes accessible for a

family member who requires it can actually access money under that program.

Under our own maintenance program for our own houses that we own, we have

actually tried to set aside some money to make some of our houses more

accessible. Some of the difficulty is, the original design of our houses do not

and assessed as to whether or not it makes sense to try and make it accessible.

We are trying to set some money aside to have more accessible houses every year.

We recognize that is a problem and if we are successful in negotiating a better

deal on the Affordable Housing Program, that is an area that we would like to be

able to address.

MS BURKE: I just want to add, with the Affordable Housing Initiative one

of the buildings presently being put up, the apartments, does have a certain

number of apartments allotted as wheelchair accessible.

MS MARSHALL: Actually, we are the only province in Canada where we had

implemented the Affordable Housing Program. There is a requirement for

MR. COLLINS: How much maintenance type work would be contracted to

outside companies rather than using your own maintenance people?

MS MARSHALL: Actually, I am sorry, I do not have the most recent numbers

on that. That also varies region by region, because of the manner in which we

have staffed our individual regional offices. I know in the Avalon region in

excess of 40 per cent of the work goes to contract work. Elsewhere, it varies.

In more remote areas we are also more likely to do more work with contractors.

MR. COLLINS: Minister, you spoke about the housing deals that have been

signed with the federal government. You mentioned one that does not expire till

2038. Are there other deals that have been assigned for shorter durations, but

still lengthy contracts?

MS BURKE: The Affordable Housing Initiative, Phase I, was signed on to.

Phase II we have not yet signed on to. Affordable houses, where we have to put

the 50 per cent matched dollar for dollar up front, and I think we need credit

for the services we provide, we haven't signed onto that yet. That is

something that I am addressing. The PHRP, the Provincial Home Repair Program,

was a three-year program and we are going into our last on that. The other one,

which I am advocating to the federal minister to get out of or renegotiate or

get a better deal, is the one that is on until 2038.

MR. COLLINS: The home repair programs: Did I hear someone say that there

are about 2,000 projects a year carried out under that program? How does that

compare - and you may have answered that - with going back, say, the last four

to eight years?

MS MARSHALL: It hasn't changed much in the last four or five years. If

you go back eight or ten years, there were more. There was more money eight

years ago, individual clients would get more. The average per client has been

reduced, but the $2,000 per year has been the same for about four or five years

now anyway.

MR. COLLINS: Outside of the emergency repair work that needs to be done,

are there provisions that would enable, say, someone who is more elderly to sort

of to get work done as a priority before someone, say, who is probably not - say

someone eighty years old needs some works done on their house, for example,

versus -

MR. DENINE: Yes, we do that type of thing. For example, there are a lot

of times in PHRP where people apply for it, their partner is coming home to be

convalescent or whatever and they need some repairs done to their house. That is

considered an emergency, because in order for them to get out of the hospital

and into their own homes, that is taken into consideration. It is the same thing

for anyone else like that.

MR MARSHALL: I would like to clarify, that if a client was eighty and had

a requirement to have a repair done to their house and another client was, say,

sixty and required the same kind of repair, they would be done in chronological

top of the list. It is not purely on the basis of age that would put you ahead.

MS BURKE: No, but if the support is needed to stay in your own home, lots

of times - I am familiar with the issue of putting rails up in the bathroom and

widening door frames and things like that.

MR. COLLINS: I do not have any further questions. I do apologize that I

have to go. I will only say that there were some other things I would have asked

under labour relations, but I can phone Joe sometime and talk about them. Other

than that, thank you very much for your time.

MS BURKE: Thank you.

CHAIR: Any other questions under this heading?

MR. BUTLER: Yes, I just have three or four questions here.

With regards to the inspectors. How many inspectors are with the housing

repair program at the present time?

MS MARSHALL: Again, I do not have the detailed numbers. I was not

expecting these kinds of quite detailed questions, but I would say there are

probably about fifteen or so across the Province.

MR. BUTLER: How does that compare with the previous year and a half to

two years? Has there been any decrease in inspectors?

MS MARSHALL: I am trying to think. I do not think there is any change in

those.

MR. BUTLER: None.

Back some time ago, maybe a year or a year and a half or a couple of years

ago now - I might not have the right name on this, but I think they were called

mobile units. I know I had one case in Port de Grave itself.

MS MARSHALL: Granny flats.

MR. BUTLER: Pardon?

MS MARSHALL: They are referred to as granny flats.

MR. BUTLER: That is it.

I had one particular case in the community of Port de Grave and his house was

to the point where it could not be repaired through the program. I have had

people out from the department. They looked at it and said it is going to cost

more than what is in the program, so they came up with this idea. I am wondering

if they are still available or will there be any more if there are none

available? This gentleman had to be moved from his home to another community out

there. The gentleman is up in years, he is totally lost in the system, and he

wants to get back to his own community. There is nothing there they can rent for

him or anything. I am just wondering: Those units are not available any more?

MS MARSHALL: No, they are not. That was a federal program. Actually, we

thought that it had really good application in this Province, because,

particularly in rural Newfoundland, many people are quite willing to have an

additional house on the same piece of property. Right across Canada, even in

rural areas, municipalities did not like the idea of having additional houses on

the same pieces of land and felt that they were losing control of municipal

planning. I think that was really the thing that killed that program. I think we

still have one left that we own that may be moved, but it gets to the stage too

where, when you attach them to the various services, the plumbing, the

electrical and all these things, and physically move them from one location to

another, you can almost build another small bungalow with almost the same price

tag, because the moving is becoming so expensive.

MR. BUTLER: Having said that, is it possible now - I am not going into

this particular family's name here now. This husband and wife, is there

anything within the system - their own home that they have there cannot be

repaired. We tried to get that done and possibly not bring it up to the total

standard. Is there anything in the system now? Like you said, maybe you can

build a small place like that. They are not looking for a mansion, let me assure

you, just a kitchen and a bedroom and a little sitting area.

MS MARSHALL: We do not have programs that build new houses, but I would

suggest that you come into the corporation and talk to the staff in the region,

whichever region - I guess in the Avalon region for your case. There may be

something, but I really do not know. We would have to look at the circumstances.

MR. BUTLER: Sure. It was mentioned there a little while ago, from another

question with regard to the number of applications on file, how many you do each

year. I think someone asked about the emergency ones, and you said they are not

in that list, they are not kept on the same file, because they are done as they

come in. I know, for instance, in my area, not many now but some of them, come

under the regular program. Maybe part of it is done through the emergency. I am

wondering: Are they compiled with this? When you said they are not in that total

there, I was wondering is this total larger, because the emergency one is not

calculated that way?

MR. DENINE: What will happen there, Roland, is, if it comes in as an

emergency the emergency work is done. Say, for example, someone wanted

electrical done but also wanted some siding done on their house or windows

replaced, the electrical is the emergency, they have to get it done, then that

part would be done and the rest of it goes back on the waiting list.

MR. BUTLER: The other one: I had an incident recently where this couple

who are in receipt of social assistance took an individual into their home who

was very severely disabled. I guess they had to get a ramp and other

this particular couple. Since then, the gentleman has passed away and now they

have emergency problems, or they are listing them as emergency with me, with

their roof and so on. They are been told: No, I am sorry, we cannot help you now

because you have this other loan on file - I know it is in their home, but there

was nothing done that benefitted them any because it was for disability reasons.

I guess in a situation like that they have to wait. There is no way around that,

where this emergency funding came because of someone else and did not help them

in any way with their living in the home.

MS MARSHALL: That does not sound right to me, because the corporation's

maintenance. Again, I would suggest that on that one you come forward to the

Corporation and let us know the details.

MR. BUTLER: I will get more on that one and have a chat with my

colleagues.

The last one I have is not a question per se, it is more or less a comment. I

like to play the game fair. If there is criticism due, I will do it and if it is

praise to be given, I will give praise. I have to say, with Newfoundland and

Labrador Housing back maybe two, three, four or five years ago under the other

Administration - I do not care what Administration is in there when something is

being done - we used to get a lot of complaints from constituents and even from

my own office and other MHAs who I work with, about the way staff were handling

things. I have to say, recently there has been some juggling around or whatever,

but the people you have dealing with us, one on one now, I think the service

that - I do not always get what I want and the people who I am fighting for do

not get their houses done when I think they should be done. I have to say there

is excellent co-operation there from that point of view and there is a major

change in attitude towards people.

OFFICIAL: I have noticed that over the last year and a half too.

MS BURKE: I would like to comment on that. I think the housing staff are

doing wonderful work with the way they deal with people, they deal with clients

and they deal with inquiries. The way we deal with the public in any part of

this department, whether it is housing or other parts, is very important. It is

a value that I have brought to this job and take very importantly. It is one,

when I was with the federal government, that we never lost sight of, and prior

to that in some work I did in another province. To treat people with dignity and

respect is a message that has to be hammered home. Every single staff meeting,

everything we do, housing is right on line with that and I think they need to be

congratulated for it. The way that people deal with the public and the service

that we provide, there are no excuse for poor quality. I want to thank you for

your acknowledgment of the work that the Housing staff do.

MR. BUTLER: There is one particular lady who deals with our office. I

mean, if we put a complaint in this morning - I do not know how she does it.

Maybe I am the only one she is dealing with but I am sure she has forty-eight

others. I have to say it is excellent, the response back. It is not always what

we are looking for and I do not expect to get what we are looking for all the

time.

MR. DENINE: Again, I just echo the comments of the minister. Thank you

for the comments, because since I have been over there for the last year or so I

have gotten to know how professional they are when they handle applications

coming in. They do, as the minister points out, look at the individuals and try

to keep that uppermost in their minds. They have done a great job. Again, I

thank you for the comments.

MR. BUTLER: Those are all my comments, Sir, with regard to the Housing

end of it. I do not know if Mr. Barrett has (inaudible).

CHAIR: Thank you.

Are there any other questions on the area of Housing?

I ask the Clerk if he would call the sections dealing with Newfoundland and

Labrador Housing.

CLERK: One subhead and the total for the Newfoundland and Labrador

Housing Corporation, of $9,650,000.

CHAIR: Shall 1.01.01 carry?

AN HON. MEMBER: Carried.

On motion, subhead 1.1.01 carried.

CHAIR: Shall the total carry unamended?

AN HON. MEMBER: Carried.

CHAIR: Carried.

On motion, total carried.

CHAIR: I shall report the heading of the Newfoundland and Labrador

Housing Corporation carried unamended?

Thank you.

On motion, Department of Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation

carried unamended.

CHAIR: Thank you very much for coming in.

I am glad we were able to accommodate your schedule.

Now we are going to the Executive Council which is found on page 205, but we

are only going to deal with the

section dealing with the Status of Women. I said

205, that is a mistake. I am sorry. Page 19 we will find that on.

MR. BUTLER: What was that again, Sir?

CHAIR: Page 19.

We are dealing with subheads 2.7.01 and 2.7.02 under the Executive Council

section in the Estimates.

Mr. Barrett.

MR. BARRETT: Is there any opening statement by the minister?

MS BURKE: No, I am ready for questions.

MR. BARRETT: You are ready for questions, okay. I was waiting for you.

Normally the minister would make some opening comments and talk about how good

the Women's Policy Office is, the great staff you have, and that sort of

thing. I recognize that.

MS BURKE: You cannot preach to the converted.

MR. BARRETT: I worked with your colleague there for many, many years. I

know how effective she is and what a tremendous public servant she is, so you do

not need to tell me.

MS BURKE: As I said before, no need to preach to the converted.

MR. BARRETT: You do not need to preach to the converted, I know how good

she is. As a matter of fact she and I grew up together.

MS BURKE: She never mentioned it to me.

MR. BARRETT: In the public service.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. BARRETT: I just have a few questions on the Women's Policy Office.

I notice that Professional Services has received an increase the Budget of

$8,000. Why, and what services are being provided?

MS MACLELLAN: That $8,000 has to do with a supplement that we get from

the Treasury Board Opening Doors Program to supplement -

CHAIR: Excuse me, Heather, I do not mean to interrupt.

MS. MACLELLAN: Oh, sorry! Heather MacLellan.

CHAIR: If you would not mind. It has become a little bit of a problem for

the people who are operating the microphones. If you would not mind, I would

really appreciate it if, each time you go to speak, you would identify yourself.

It makes for much easier recording of the proceedings.

MS. MACLELLAN: It is a supplement we get from the Opening Doors Program

to supplement a position that we have in our office.

MR. BARRETT: You have a position in your office through the Opening Doors

policy. Congratulations, I really commend you for that particular position. I

did not see any in Newfoundland and Labrador Housing like that.

Anyway, Grants and Subsidies has been increased by $270,000. Why the increase

and what programs come from this Budget?

MS BURKE: The Grants and Subsidies that we have there shows that we have

a $20,000 grant for the Provincial Transition House Association; $5,000 for the

sexual assault crisis centre. There were increases in our grants and subsides

this year. We were able to give each of the eight women's centres an

additional $10,000, which brought them from $55,000 a year up to $65,000 a year.

There was also some increased funding for Aboriginal women's issues, and with

that there was $20,000 set aside in this budget for an Aboriginal women's

conference. There was also $70,000 for the shelter up in Hopedale, and there was

$100,000 for some specific violence prevention initiatives that were highlighted

in a forum we had in March with regard to violence prevention initiatives within

the Aboriginal communities.

MR. BARRETT: The next question is a very serious one. The Minister of

Justice has indicated the provincial government would not support legal aid

clients who need legal representation with divorce cases. This affects mostly

women. What is the minister prepared to do to support these women?

I know, in my sixteen years as an MHA, there is a situation where women are

sort of stranded. They cannot get any representation from legal aid. They get

into situations that are very, very difficult because they do not have the right

legal representation. I think that is sort of the responsibility of the Minister

Responsible for the Status of Women. Is there any money in the Budget, that the

Status of Women has to provide any kind of service to these women?

MS BURKE: We do not have a budget where we specifically provide legal

services. We do not pay for the legal representation for women. In saying that,

issues with regard to women and the justice system and how women are treated in

the justice system, I think any time there is a change in government policy we

need to seriously look at it and see how women are treated. One of the

initiatives that is presently on the go right now is to look at family violence

legislation in this Province. Again that gets at some of the issues with regard

to women and how they are treated by the judicial system, specifically once they

are a victim of violence with regard to the family home, with regard to access

to the home, with regard to where the abuser or the perpetrator is removed, what

access he has back, how he removes his property. All those issues are big issues

and these are issues before we even hit the court system and we have sentencing

and what happens post-sentence, and certainly what happens with regards to

intervening in the offender's offence cycle.

I think at any point, as far as Women's Policy, we have to make sure and

monitor that departments do the gender analysis when they look at specific

issues, and I think justice is one of the issues. Probably from my own

background, coming into this and knowing some of the disadvantages that women

can find themselves in, a lot of them are systemic and a lot of them have been

created over the years and are not necessarily unique to Newfoundland and

Labrador. I certainly think that any time there are changes in any type of

policy that affect women and the legal system, we really need to have a good

look at it and make sure the gender analysis is done.

MR. BARRETT: So, there is no money within the Budget for the Status of

Women, but there seems to be a breakdown in terms - I guess one of your roles,

as the Minister Responsible for the Status of Women, it may not be in the budget

of your particular department, but have you made any representations to justice,

to get money in the Department of Justice to cover some of these things.

I know that over my period as MHA, a lot of times I had to come up with or

try to raise money to assist some people who couldn't afford - I mean they are

in a situation and they are intimidated and frightened. Some of you have only

been around for a year-and-a-half, but the kinds of calls that we get as MHAs

sometimes are very, very frightening, in terms of what is happening. Then they

need a lawyer and advise from a lawyer - I am not a lawyer myself - and they go

to Legal Aid and there is no Legal Aid available to them, and they end up

sometimes in the kind of a situation where they are not getting the rights they

are entitled to, and it reaches a crisis proportion.

MS BURKE: You can speak to this as well, Heather. There are a number of

factors that happen - and this links women and poverty and the justice system

together as well. A lot of times, when women are in situations and they do not

have the financial resources - again, that even goes back to the fact that men

continue to be probably represented more than women in the workplace and make

more money. Often times it is the woman who is left in the situation where she

needs help to get out of it, whether it is legal help or whatever.

Civil Legal Aid is still available. There are also supports available at the

women's centers, at the Transition House. This new legislation that is

presently out before stakeholders and for consultation regarding family bonds

legislation gets at a lot of that. Some of the issues even within the legal

system, like access to the family home - if the woman continues to have custody

of the children while this matter is before the courts, she is often left trying

to find a place to live, having to live at Transition Houses, having to try to

set up an apartment, having to try to move the children, probably with things

still left in the house, where she does not have access to the furniture, is not

able to move the furniture and get into her new accommodations. A lot of this is

getting at that, you know, getting at the idea that the perpetrator is probably

the one who has to leave the family home, and that leaves the women and the

children with the right to the home and the property of that home. Those are

some of the issues that we are addressing and they are being addressed through

the Justice Department. Heather, I do not know if you want to add to that, about

access to legal services.

MS. MACLELLAN: This is a problem in terms of getting access to funds for

civil cases, not just in this Province. This was-

MR. BARRETT: Could the hon. members to my back be quiet, because I cannot

hear.

MS. MACLELLAN: It is not just an issue in this Province, it is an issue

in other provinces. This was, I believe, a topic at a

federal-provincial-territorial minister's meeting, discussions with the

federal minister on looking at trying to increase funds to the Province to put

into an increased civil legal aid budget. Right now, the federal and provincial

Ministers Responsible for the Status of Women are seeking a meeting with their

colleagues in Justice across the country. This may be an agenda item on that

table as well. We are working on our committee here with Justice on all these

issues and then as well at the national table.

MR. BARRETT: The Member for Port de Grave, do you have any questions for

the minister?

MR. BUTLER: (Inaudible).

MR. BARRETT: I guess I have a question for the minister. Today in the

House, and we all know what happened today in terms of some of the issues, you

advocated for women today and rightly so, in terms of reinstating some of the

services in the hospital in Stephenville. I am just wondering now - I know that

a lot of the women on the Burin Peninsula are in great need of the CAT scan.

Have you made the same representation to the Minister of Health or the Acting

Minister of Health to lobby for the CAT scan for the Burin Peninsula?

MS BURKE: We are working with the Department of Health to make sure that

when they make decisions that they do a general analysis and that the needs of

women come into play. That is not just for some policies or some procedures.

This gender analysis and to be able to advance the Status of Women is certainly

important in all decisions from all departments including the Department of

Health. A gender analysis is certainly a part of the process anytime that we

look at any policies, and I advocate that not just for the Department of Health

but with every single department in this government.

MR. BARRETT: Have you made representation to the Minister of Health on

the CAT scan for the Burin Peninsula?

MS BURKE: Again, I will go back to the departments. They have to do a

gender analysis on all their decisions.

MR. BARRETT: I want to ask the minister: I see the appointments to the

various boards and agencies within the Province since you came into power, and

all I am seeing is appointments from the old boys' club. I do not see very

many women being appointed to the boards and agencies. As a matter of fact,

there are very few women who have been appointed to any of the agencies or board

since you have been elected.

MS BURKE: Well, we always advocate, and I continue to advocate, that we

do need a gender balance and we do need affirmative action when we do these

appointments. I can just speak to some. One was the health boards that were

announced, that came into effect in April. We did achieve gender balance on each

of the health boards. In addition to that, the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing

Board was appointed with gender equity as well. Further to that, there have been

appointments down at the Workplace Health and Safety Compensation Commission

with the Chair being a female, and also the Chair of the Labour Relations Board

was also a female.

It is an issue that I take very seriously, that I advocate to all of the

departments, and I try specifically with the appointments that I am responsible

for, that we can get females in some of these key positions.

MR. BARRETT: It appears that most of the boards that are being appointed,

that are actually paid boards, have been very heavy in terms of the old boys'

club and not very many women, like the health board. You are talking about the

health board and school boards and these various boards, they are not paid

boards. It seems that most of the boards that are appointed, that are not paid

board positions, yes, you seem to be making great representations in getting

women appointed to boards that are not being paid. Let's face it, over the

years, in our Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, most communities would not

have survived without women and the volunteer aspect in terms of women. I mean,

we men have done a miserable job in terms of volunteering, and it seems, right

now, that this government has the old boys' club to the high paid positions in

terms of the boards.

MS BURKE: Well, again, I can speak to the Housing Board. There is a per

diem attached to that and we did get gender balance on that board. I will just

speak for my own department, but I do advocate this to all departments. Then we

had the social assistance review board and that is predominantly female with

just one male on it, with a female chair as well. I have been doing my part to

advocate this and to make sure my appointments get this gender balance. It is

very important, and I think that message needs to get out there. I think women

should be, at last, 50 per cent on every board we have, and that is a goal we

have to go for. Women have a lot to offer. You are right, they have done a lot

of work in Newfoundland and Labrador and they have kept the communities

together. There is a lot of wisdom in women, and I think there should be more

women on every board, agency and commission, and in government, certainly at the

senior level.

MR. BARRETT: Well, I agree with you. I grew up in rural Newfoundland, and

as a matter of fact, the work person within the family was the women. The men

went out to fish, but the women did all of the work. I commend you in that you

are able to in your own department, but you do not seem to be able to get the

message to your other members of Cabinet. Are you on the appointments committee

of Cabinet?

MS BURKE: I am on the appointments of committee of Cabinet. I can tell

you, the issue of getting women appointed to boards, agencies and commissions is

not something that started in the last eighteen months. There is a systemic

issue, there is a societal issue, and they are something that we are dealing

with. Because there is difficulty and because there is a challenge does not mean

we back down. We have to continue to advocate. We have to get women out there

who want to serve on these boards, who have the expertise, who have the

knowledge they can lend to these boards, and they can bring that. At no point do

we throw down the gauntlet and say: Too bad! We tried. We have to keep working

at this. Women have been trying to advance the status of women and the quality

issues in Canada and throughout the world for years. We are not there yet. We

are still working on it and we are not going to give up.

MR. BARRETT: If I have some women in my district who I think would like

to serve on the boards, I could sent them to the Minister Responsible for the

Status of Women and you will work on getting them appointed.

MS BURKE: Absolutely! I throw that invitation out many times when I speak

to women's groups. I have approached many people and said: Look, you have some

women, let me know the skills, let me know what they are interested in, and give

me an inventory. I keep lots of women on file. Some may or may not be interested

in different positions, but it is important when we make referrals that we have

people available who we can refer for appointment and see if they are interested

in any particular board; absolutely. We need that, we need women, we need that

knowledge, we need that wisdom, we need their expertise, and we need their

gender perspective when decisions are being made. If we can get gender balance

and we can get more equities on these boards, we are going to get better

decisions.

MR. BUTLER: I do not have any further questions.

CHAIR: Are there any other questions from anybody on the women's policy

subheads?

I will ask the Clerk if he would call, within this category, just those two

sections we are dealing with here.

CLERK: Under the Executive Council head of expenditure, the subheads

2.7.01. and 2.7.02., Women's Policy Office and the Provincial Advisory Council

for the Status of Women.

CHAIR: Shall 2.7.01. and 2.7.02. under the Executive Council heading

entitled Women's Policy carry?

AN HON. MEMBER: Carried.

CHAIR: Shall I report those carried without amendment?

Carried, thank you.

On motion, subheads 2.7.01. through 2.7.02. carried without amendment.

CHAIR: Thank you, Ms MacLellan.

We are going to move now to Labour Relations which is found on page 213. It

is under the Human Resources, Labour and Employment heading. Maybe what we can

do, Committee, for the benefit of the minister's staff, now that we are under

the heading of Human Resources, Labour and Employment we will deal with the

subheads under Labour Relations, 6.1.01, 6.1.02, through to 6.1.04. We will

explore them with the staff and then we can maybe vote on the subheads, all

inclusive. Is that okay?

MR. BARRETT: Labour Relations?

CHAIR: Yes, we will start with Labour Relations, 6.1.01.

MR. BARRETT: Any opening comments by the minister?

MS BURKE: No, let's get right to the questions.

MR. BARRETT: No opening comments to praise the person to the right of you

who is one of the leaders in Labour Relations in the country and in the world?

MS BURKE: You know it all. You can do the opening comments.

MR. BARRETT: I just have a couple of questions, and I would like for Joe

to go home and rest because I know he had a difficult year.

Provincial revenues have increased by $78,000 this year. What is this $78,000

in terms of provincial revenues?

MS BURKE: That is the clawback of the salary for the Director of Policy

and Planning.

MR. BARRETT: Pardon?

MS BURKE: That is for a position, the Director of Policy and Planning. It

comes from the Workplace, Health and Safety Compensation Commission.

MR. BARRETT: Minister, I cannot hear you. I don't know if I am going

deaf or what, but I am having difficulty hearing you tonight. It is probably

because I shouted that much today I am gone deaf myself, I don't know.

The provincial revenue has a budget of $78,000. What is the source of this

money?

MS BURKE: That is money from the Workplace, Health and Safety

Compensation Commission to fund the position of the Director of Policy and

Planning.

MR. BARRETT: Okay. Now I hear you. If you speak up I can hear you, but if

you do not speak up I cannot hear you.

In the Labour Relations Board, the salaries were overspent last year by

$77,900. Why?

MS BURKE: That is because we brought in a full-time Chair position for

the Labour Relations Board.

MR. BARRETT: I think that is one I approved, wasn't it?

MS BURKE: No.

MR. BARRETT: Didn't I approve a full-time Chair for the Labour

Relations Board?

MR. O'NEILL: The first full-time Chair was appointed on April 1, 2001.

The second full-time Chair was appointed under Minister Burke's reign last

year, the first full-time female Chair of the Labour Relations Board.

MS BURKE: I think I did that without getting your approval at the time.

MR. BARRETT: It is nice to know that you did that.

I have a question for the minister. Last year we went through a very

difficult time in this Province in terms of labour relations. Do you have any

figures in terms of the number of lost days of employment last year in the

Province of Newfoundland and Labrador because of labour difficulties?

MR. O'NEILL: I do not have the figures with me, Mr. Barrett, but we can

certainly get them and supply them to you. That is no problem. I can have them

for you first thing tomorrow morning. Our statistician supplies them. We can

certainly have that material for you.

MS BURKE: In saying that, the Labour Relations Agency, although there

were some very high profile labour disputes in the Province last year, we

certainly have a settlement rate in the collective agreements of 90 per cent,

without strikes or lockouts.

MR. BARRETT: My research tells me that last year we had more lost days of

work in this Province because of labour difficulties than any time in the

history of Newfoundland and Labrador.

MR. O'NEILL: You are probably right with the possible except of 1985.

One year I think we hit close to 900,000 or something. You are right, the number

of days lost last year was extremely high and certainly one of the highest on

record. I can certainly get you those numbers.

MR. BARRETT: Of course, the other thing is a question I would ask the

Premier if he were here: When is he going to smarten up and appoint a full

Department of Labour for Newfoundland and Labrador, rather then having it as a

branch of another department? That is a question for the Premier.

Those are all the questions I have on Labour Relations. I know that the

people in Labour Relations do a tremendous job, but I think they also need a

full-time person sitting around the Cabinet Table. That is my personal bias.

MS BURKE: Sometimes, women can take on multiple roles and can represent

multiple areas at the Cabinet Table, just as women have taken on multiple roles

in traditional ways.

MR. BARRETT: In the history of the Liberal government, when we had a full

time Department of Labour, we practically split the time between men and women

in terms of ministers. As a matter of fact, I think the women outnumbered the

men in the number of days that were served as a full-time Minister of Labour.

MS BURKE: I think that is progress.

MR. BARRETT: Those are all the questions I have.

MR. BUTLER: We are waiting for the big ones for the other part of the

department. These are just preliminary ones.

MS BURKE: Just a warmup. Everyone is gone.

AN HON. MEMBER: Why don't we go home, get everyone (inaudible).

MR. BUTLER: We are going to have to come back.

Just a simple question before he comes in now.

MS BURKE: Hurry up. We will have a free-for-all on it.

MR. BUTLER: Workplace Health and Safety, the Compensation Board - would

you ask this under this division here? That would come up under the total

(inaudible).

MS BURKE: The Workplace Health and Safety Compensation Commission Board,

is that what you asked about?

MR. BUTLER: Yes.

MS BURKE: The board?

MR. BUTLER: Yes.

MS BURKE: Well, that would not be in under our budget.

MR. BUTLER: Would that be under the Labour component, the WHSCC Board?

MS BURKE: Yes, the review division is in the line budget but we do not

have a line budget -

MR. BUTLER: I just wanted to ask a question about the office down here on

Forest Road, is it? Would that come under the Labour component, or come up,

generally, under departmental?

MS BURKE: No, that is not in the line budget.

MR. BARRETT: You would be the minister responsible for that, right? You

are responsible for Workers -

MS BURKE: Yes, but that is not in this budget, in the Estimates here?

MR. BARRETT: But as a minister you report to the House?

MS BURKE: Oh, yes.

MR. BARRETT: Right. So, any questions we have about the Workers'

Compensation Commission, you answer it?

MS BURKE: Right.

MR. BUTLER: That is all I (inaudible).

MS BURKE: Okay, I did not realize. I thought you were asking were they in

this budget here.

MR. BARRETT: I just want to tell you what your role is, that is all.

MS BURKE: Thank you. I am glad you were able to clarify that for me.

MR. BUTLER: I just had the one question in reference to that, and it has

nothing to do with the figures, like you said here in the Budget, Minister.

I guess, what I said about Housing, I am going to renege on it knowing it

comes from this end of it. It seems like I get a lot of calls from constituents

who feel that they are not treated fairly when they are on the phone talking to

their case managers and so on, and there are numerous times I get those

complaints.

The question that I had: Is there anyone in that division who deals back and

forth with the elected officials? I thought there was an individual who was

placed there for that reason solely, that if I call down there I do not get

directly through to the case manager, but I deal with someone who corresponds

back and forth. Has that been removed or is that still there?

MS BURKE: I want to speak to that. Basically, when you need to address

any particular case, whether it is with Workers' Compensation or Housing or

HRLE, the staff should be able to accommodate. As minister overseeing the board

- and this is not, obviously, part of the Estimates we are doing here, but it is

a very important question and I want to address it. One of the things that I

brought to this work and this responsibility is how we treat individuals. I said

it earlier here tonight, and it is a value that I feel is the only way that we

are ever going to make progress and deal with people, whether at the political

level, whether it is at the case management level, whatever, it is how we treat

individuals with this level of dignity and respect.

There has been a change at the Chair at the board but I expressed my concerns

to the Chair of the board and the CEO in July - Joe was with me at a meeting -

and we looked at - there were some serious fiscal issues facing the Workplace

Health and Safety Compensation Commission. They have done some work to address

those issues, to address the unfunded liability. They are on target, and

probably ahead of their targets in meeting some of those unfunded liabilities.

In saying that, the whole focus of Workers' Compensation cannot solely be on

the fiscal realities that they are dealing with. There has to be a balance

between emphasis placed on being able to meet the financial targets but also

being able to treat the clients with respect, with dignity and with fairness.

That was something I felt could be improved on there and it was something that I

brought to their attention. It is something that I address on a consistent basis

with any of the senior level officials who report to me. To be quite honest, I

really feel there is no excuse in Newfoundland and Labrador from any public

servants, to treat any person of the public, any client, with anything less than

dignity and respect. I expect that from any workers in any branch of this

department.

MR. BUTLER: As an elected official - not only myself, but any members of

this House - should we be calling directly to the case managers down there or is

there someone down there that we go through?

MS BURKE: We do not have an MHA consultant, case manager directorate. I

would think that if there are individuals who have - because I would think that

each individual probably has a specific case manager and I would think that

would be - if you were going to advocate on behalf of someone or speak to their

particular case or try to ask some questions - the person who would have the

information.

MR. BUTLER: This is what I am heading to, because I have been advised

that we should not be going directly to the case managers for each individual

constituent. I know for a number of years, even when I was an executive

assistant, there was an individual at the office down there who we would put all

our concerns through and they would correspond back and forth with us. The

problem that I have now, it seems like - and we still go to that person. I do

not want to use any names here, I do not think that is fair. But we used to go

through that individual and now it seems like that person who was a go-between,

between the elected officials and the staff down there, now it is almost like

they are staff and we are not getting - I do not think we are getting the

correct co-operation.

MS BURKE: I guess my question is: Who advised not to go to the case

manager? I can address that somehow. If somebody is giving out advice that is

not coming from the top down or is not consistent, I can address that.

MR. BUTLER: All right. I will tell you what I will do, in all fairness to

the individual, if you don't mind tomorrow - do you mind if I spoke to you

about -

MS BURKE: That is fine. Like, if there are issues -

MR. BUTLER: I will give you the individual name and where I am coming

from.

MS BURKE: Yes, and I cannot address them if I am not aware of them

either. I have no problem addressing issues. This is how it is set up now. Maybe

there will be someone down the road. If there is, we will let everyone know, but

right now the case manager knows the case.

CHAIR: Minister, just to - I don't know if it enlightens you in anyway

or helps Mr. Butler with his questioning or line of questioning. The situation

that Mr. Butler describes has been longstanding. I have been around for five

years. So three of the five years that I have been around, that has been the

direction the Commission has provided to elected MHAs. It is one individual,

where a person works out of the CEO's office. They handle inquiries and filter

it to the case managers and feed the information back directly to the MHAs. Case

managers very rarely will call -

MS BURKE: But, if they are not doing it. If you do not have that

go-between you have to go to the case manager. You just cannot randomly make

phone calls down there and ask for help. If that go-between position is not

there and we are saying call the case managers - I mean, if the person is not

doing that filtering of calls, well, we have to deal with it, and I will deal

with that.

MR. BUTLER: My understanding was that this person - I think we are

talking about the same individual - more or less was placed there - by whom, I

do not know - a few years ago. That this would be an individual that you could

contact, I guess to cut through some of the red tape and get your concerns into

where they had to go in the department, rather than fifty people calling the

case manager and setting him all tipsy-turvy and so on. Now that is not

happening. I do not think the correspondence, and my hon. colleague, the Chair -

it is not coming back the same way. It is almost like they are taking a stance,

that: Look, you shouldn't be doing this. They are more or less acting as the

ones who are down there who are carrying out the business and they are not the

go-between that they were a few years ago. I was wondering if that had changed,

or whatever.

MS BURKE: As an MHA, I often get inquiries too. I, too, would like to

know who this identified go-between is. It is not somebody I am aware of, that

we have been putting out there as a name or contact that I have been filtering

cases through, and we have been dealing directly with case managers at a

constituency level. Anyway, I will look into it.

MR. BUTLER: Mr. Chair, that is the only thing that I have on this. I

think Mr. Barrett covered off on his end of it there.

CHAIR: Is there anyone else who would like to raise some questions with

respect to the Labour Relations subheads 6.1.01 to 6.1.04?

That being said, then I will ask the Clerk if he would call subheads under

the title of Labour Relations, 6.1.01 to 6.1.04.

CLERK: Subheads under the Labour Relations Agency, 6.1.01 to and

including 6.1.04, the total amount of $2,417,900.

CHAIR: Shall 6.1.01 to and including 6.1.04 carry?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Carried.

CHAIR: Carried. Thank you.

On motion, subheads 6.1.01 through 6.1.04 carried.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. O'Neill.

MS BURKE: Thank you, Joe.

MR. BUTLER: Thinning out, thinning out.

MS BURKE: Yes, they can all go home after they are (inaudible).

MR. BUTLER: Sorry, Dave, boy, you are going to be late.

MR. BARRETT: Mr. Chairman, before we proceed with further deliberations

of the department, I want to bring up a point. It just came to my attention that

there are three RNC officers within the confines of the House of Assembly

tonight. I just want to know, why are they here and under whose orders are they

here?

CHAIR: That is a question more appropriately pointed to the Speaker. The

galleries and the House is a - these hearings are not closed. They are public. I

have no idea who might be in the precincts of the House. If you have identify

them and know them to be, or they have identified themselves -

MR. BARRETT: They just identified themselves to me as RNC officers.

CHAIR: If they have identified themselves as being RNC, that is a

question that is more appropriately addressed to the Speaker and you may want to

do that tomorrow. But in terms of the impacting or having any impact in any

fashion on the proceedings of this hearing or these committee meetings, I am not

certain that it has any bearing or relevance or impact on the committee hearings

that we are having right now. These hearings are public, so if there is someone

from the general public who wanted to be here tonight, there is that potential

for that. The House of Assembly or the galleries are not closed. So if your

question is about who is in the precincts of the House after hours, after the

normal House time is sitting, that is more of a question, I suggest, you ask the

Speaker tomorrow.

MR. BARRETT: It is relevant in terms of, I just finished asking a

question to the Minister Responsible for the Status of Women, that there was no

money within the Department of Justice to handle or look after cases who are

women. Here we are now, we have the Department of Justice paying for three RNC

officers in the confines of this House of Assembly. I am just wondering: Are

they here for the protection of us, or who are they here to protect, because the

Department of Works, Services and Transportation has security here in the

building?

CHAIR: Again I appreciate the question, but I am sorry, I fail to see how

it impacts the proceedings of the this Committee, nor is it a question that I am

in the position to answer for you, because I do not know. It is more a question,

as I have suggested, that you might want to direct to the Speaker. I do not see

it, to be frank with you, having an impact on our ability to proceed with the

rest of the debate and discussions around the Estimates of this department.

MR. BARRETT: Mr. Chair, you are the Chair of a Committee of the House of

Assembly.

CHAIR: Yes.

MR. BARRETT: The Budget Estimates Committee is a constituted committee of

the House of Assembly. We are in the people's House of Assembly right now, and

right now we have three RNC officers stationed outside the door and you do not

know why they are here?

CHAIR: That is what I am telling you, I do not know.

MR. BARRETT: You do not know.

CHAIR: No, I do not.

MR. BARRETT: Can we tell them to go home and save the taxpayers some

money?

CHAIR: I do not have that authority.

MR. BARRETT: You do not have that authority?

CHAIR: They have a commanding officer, I assume, who assigned them here

tonight. As members of that force, I suspect they get their direction clearly

from the commanding officer and not from me. I suspect it is the Speaker of the

House who may have engaged them.

MR. BARRETT: The security within the House of Assembly is the

responsibility of the Speaker of the House, and you are the Chair of a Committee

of the House of Assembly and you do not know why we have RNC officers here

tonight?

CHAIR: I am a Chair, and the operative word, as you have indicated, is

clearly we are, as a Committee, appointed by the House. We are all appointed by

the House of Assembly and not by the Speaker. We are here as appointed by the

House. As Chair, I am not representing the Speaker in his Chair. I am chairing a

Standing Committee of the House of Assembly.

MR. BARRETT: This is a constituted Committee of the House of Assembly.

CHAIR: It is indeed.

MR. BARRETT: We have, in the House of Assembly tonight, within the

confines of the House of Assembly, three RNC officers who are being paid for by

the taxpayers of the Province and nobody can answer the question.

CHAIR: I understand your question.

MR. BARRETT: Okay, I will ask the question to the Speaker tomorrow.

CHAIR: It is the appropriate place.

MR. BARRETT: Okay.

CHAIR: Now we can proceed, and we will deal with the Estimates of the

Department of Human Resources, Labour and Employment. I suggest we have already

voted on four subheads that fall under the heading of Labour Relations.

Mr. Butler, I suggest what we might do to facilitate the discussion of the

broader issues in the department, if we probably just open a discussion for the

remaining subheads and when we are finished we will then have one vote on the

remaining subheads. It might facilitate a freer flow. Is that okay with you?

MR. BUTLER: Sure, not a problem.

CHAIR: I would now ask yourself or Mr. Barrett if you want to proceed

with some questions on this issue.

MR. BUTLER: Okay, Mr. Chair.

Minister, with regard to the program that was, I think, a three-month trial

pilot project with regard to telemarketing - I think it was called

telemarketing, is that correct?

MS BURKE: Telelink.

MR. BUTLER: Telelink, I am sorry.

That has been completed now, and I was just wondering what findings came from

that to help your department with the problems that you were encountering,

apparently, with the calls that were coming in through the office in particular?

MS BURKE: We did that study for twelve weeks to get some data on the

number of calls coming in, the nature of the calls, and how many calls were

actually repeat calls, on the understanding that repeat calls were probably a

lot of unnecessary calls if the messages had been relayed or followed upon in a

timely manner. We did the study. We looked at the results week after week, and

as a result of that we determined how many people we needed to answer the

telephones to relay the messages. Based on that information we have set up our

own similar service, although we are not Telelink, we set up a similar service

using our own staff and we do have our own message centre, answering centre,

where when people phone in they speak to a live person and the messages are

relayed to the workers or they are connected to the workers. We wanted some hard

data to see what type of resources we needed to be able to effectively provide

that service. I was not necessarily satisfied with the effectiveness of the

messaging within the office.

MR. BUTLER: How many people would you have on now, after that was

completed, to look after the -

MS BURKE: I think it is four or five people, five I think, who actually

handle that administrative part of the office.

MR. BUTLER: Prior to that, there would not have been anyone receiving

calls per se. Would there be anyone at the front desk, just putting through to

the workers, we will say?

MS BURKE: Basically, that is how it was and then there were even times

when that staff were not dedicated solely to the telephones and had to do other

functions as well. Right now they are in a separate location where this is

primarily the duties that they do.

MR. BUTLER: Minister, could you inform us what the cost of that was, with

Telelink, that three-month pilot project approximately?

MS BURKE: It was approximately $30,000.

MR. BUTLER: When Telelink was there, those people who were answering the

calls at that time, I know they were trained to handle telephone calls but were

they trained or had any training leading up to that with regard to the type of

situations they would have encountered, with those particular calls that would

be coming into your department?

MS BURKE: Yes, they were trained with regard to that. I still want to

emphasis that Telelink also handles our after-hour calls which would be, a lot

of times, the same clients with the same issues who would call later in the day

as opposed to earlier in the day. Telelink has been providing that service for a

number of years.

MR. BUTLER: The four or five that you mentioned now, they would be taking

calls just from the one office or offices all over St. John's and Mount Peal,

that type of thing?

MS BURKE: Yes, they would do it for Mount Pearl and St. John's.

MR. BUTLER: I was wondering if you could give me the figure - maybe it is

in the Estimates here - for the savings that came from the twenty offices that

were closed, I will call it last year. Yes, it would have been last year.

MS BURKE: You can speak to that, Dave.

MR. ROBERTS: You are inquiring about the savings from the office

closures?

MR. BUTLER: Yes.

MR. ROBERTS: The bottom line is that we pretty well broke about even as a

department on it. There were about twenty positions that were reduced out in our

regional services, and that money was taken out of our budget last year, and for

the whole twelve months in this fiscal year. We do not have the savings, as a

department, from the salaries. Other than that, there were positions transferred

to adjacent offices. There were some funds saved on accommodations, but that in

turn increased costs of accommodations in other areas. For example, out in

Gander, the offices of Gambo, Wesleyville and Fogo were closed, but several

staff of those offices were transferred to Gander. We saved some money on the

accommodations in those three locations that were closed, but it increased

accommodation costs, say, in Gander.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

With regard to the office that moved from Bay Roberts to Carbonear, I was

just wondering, would you have any figures on what the estimate will be for the

toll-free number that was put in so that people - I know we are close together,

but there is a different exchange number there. I was just wondering if you have

a figure of what that might have been? Certainly, they haven't been there a

year yet, I suppose. So it is probably -

MS BURKE: How much was the toll free?

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MS BURKE: Yes, we do have toll-free numbers across the Province.

MR. BUTLER: Pardon?

MS BURKE: We do have toll-free numbers across the Province. Now, for me

to be able to break down, right now, and tell you what each number -

MR. BUTLER: Okay. I was just wondering what the cost might have been for

people in my area having called the toll-free number to Carbonear versus when

the office was in Bay Roberts and was just a regular number for them, local

number. You would not have that?

MS BURKE: No, I do not know the exact cost of each telephone number.

MR. BUTLER: I was wondering, minister, if you could inform me how many

incidents over, say the past twelve months that - and I am just referring to the

St. John's metro office or downtown office. I understand that from time to

time there are quite a few incidents that happen there and the RNC are called

in. I was just wondering how frequent that is, or does it happen very often?

MS BURKE: I do not have the exact number but, you know, my officials tell

me it is very infrequent that the RNC are called. But, in saying that, with any

office that deals with a number of clients, a lot of times in vulnerable

populations, a lot of times people in very stressful situations, and a lot of

times people probably not with the cognitive skills to be able to do the problem

solving that is necessary sometimes to deal with the crisis situation that they

find themselves in, that to have a person act out behaviourally is probably not

necessarily uncommon in many situations; whether you work with an HRLE office,

whether you work with adult probation, whether you work with the Correctional

Service of Canada or you work with other agencies that deal with the general

public and, oftentimes, public who find themselves in crisis situations.

I think that staff are able to deal with crisis situations but sometimes the

client, themselves, for whatever reason, whether it is through cognitive

distortions or their own cognitive skills that they are unable to solve the

problem, as I had said, or because there could be any other issues, like an

anti-social personality disorder or any type of disorder or mental illness that

leads them to act out, that sometimes if the staff is unable to deal with that,

the police do provide that backup service. In most social agencies, that

certainly would not be the protocol of how we deal with people who are acting

out, and you would certainly try to do some non-violent crisis intervention as

your first means to deal with that client. But if the situation arises, you

know, the safety of both the client and the workers, paramount needs to be

addressed. A lot of times when you deal with a population as high as some of the

social agencies that we deal with, and to be able to deal with somebody in a

rational manner during a crisis situation often, unfortunately, leads to that

type of intervention. Despite that level of intervention and the removal, I

think a lot of times it is done at a very safe level. I think the police

themselves often employ non-violent crisis intervention and very rarely does it

actually lead to criminal charges.

MR. BUTLER: Why I asked that is because over the last several months I

have had calls from workers, as well as clients, who would be in the waiting

area and an incident happened on two or three occasions. They have called and

expressed concern for their safety, the ones who were just outside where the

incident happened. You feel that the situations are taken care of adequately and

you do not have any concerns. I know anything can happen anywhere I suppose.

MS BURKE: Anything can happen anywhere, but I certainly feel that we have

staff who are well qualified to deal with people who are able to deal with

crisis situations. We probably also have staff who deal with a caseload that

presents many different issues, whether it is addictions treatment, if it is

mental health issues, if it deals with people who are in crisis with regards to

their children or victims of violence. A lot of times a lot of these presenting

problems are there and a lot of times the anger and the aggression that could be

expressed or the frustration is probably not even necessarily at the worker, but

it is probably a culmination of other issues that are being dealt with.

Unfortunately, being a front-line worker you often are that first line of attack

when somebody is in a stressful situation, but when we deal with so many people

as a government department, I think our staff are well skilled to be able to

deal with that. Again, in human behaviour there are no absolutes and there are

some times when you need that added security or that added protection or the

backup of probably an enforcement agency.

MR. BUTLER: I know, Minister, I have asked this question several times in

the House of Assembly. As you know, I guess, debates get heated back and forth.

Are you satisfied with the level of staffing? I am referring to that particular

office but probably at others as well. The staffing there is at the level now

where everything is flowing as it should be and there is adequate staff there to

look after clients and so on at that particular office?

MS BURKE: As we monitor workload and how the workload is being processed,

it seems the applications that are being made for income support are being

processed on the same day that they are being made. As well, a lot of the other

issues that are non-emergency in nature should be processed within about

fourteen days, and most of the work is being processed in that fourteen day time

frame. Work that is being delayed sometimes goes up to thirty days, which is

outside the time frames, but certainly not outside what would be reasonable in a

high caseload at certain points. As we monitor the applications and the

non-emergency requests, it seems that they are being done in a timely fashion,

so that their work seems to be up to date. That is, a lot of times, how we

monitor the work in and the work out.

MR. BUTLER: Minister, can you confirm if there were employees - and I

guess it is called employment services at - Regatta Plaza is the other office

here in the city?

MS BURKE: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: Is it correct that there were three employees from employment

services who were transferred down to the Water Street office to become involved

with income supports? If that is the case, is that still ongoing?

MS BURKE: The client service officers that we have can go into two

streams of work, whether it is the Income Support side or whether it is the

employment and career services side. There may be times that we have to have the

flexibility, depending on the workload, that we need to be able to transfer from

one caseload to another. Sometimes that happens within offices, but basically,

we have to make sure that there is a flow to the work and we are able to get the

work done. It does not happen all the time. It is not necessarily something that

we would not do and it is sometimes what we do to deal with these issues on a

temporary measure.

MR. BUTLER: Why I asked the question is because I know during questioning

in the House of Assembly one day you mentioned that everything seemed to be okay

down there. Then after that I heard that there were three other people put down

there from employment services in another office. I was just wondering: Was it

because of the backlog that was down there, that there was inadequate staff

there to carry out the workload and that is why those people were put in there?

I think I brought it up in the House or on a news release or something, on a

press release, right after that they were transferred back again, but I

understand that a little while after that two went back down again. So I was

just wondering, is it because there is inadequate staff at that office to carry

out - by the way, I am not complaining about the staff because they have one

hell of a job to deal with, and I understand all that.

MS BURKE: No, I guess the difference is we have staff at two different

sites. If they are under the one roof they would be just assigned from one

workload to another, but they happen to be under two different roofs over here,

at two different addresses. But it would not be uncommon in any place in the

Province, if we needed to get some work done in Income Support, that we would

re-profile someone's workload at any point, whether we change the workload

that they are into in Income Support or Employment and Career Services. We have

to use the existing resources we have to get the work done. The CSOs in

Employment and Career Services or Income Support, I guess, could be transferred

from one caseload or assignment to one work duty as the need arises there.

The other thing that we certainly need flexibility on - and we have been

through this on the West Coast and it is happening here now on the Avalon - is

over the last few months, and it will continue until we are ready to roll out

the next service delivery, at times there will be staff who will have to come

and do training for a couple of weeks at a time, so that there will be a block

of staff who will actually come out of their workplace to make sure that they

are trained in the new system. When that happens, we also need the flexibility

to make sure that while they are out for the two weeks or six weeks or what it

is going to take to train them that someone covers off that work. That just

cannot wait until they come back to work, so we need that flexibility as well.

MR. BUTLER: I have no problem with the flexibility of moving them in or

whatever, but the only thing that I was wondering - we were advised that

everything was fine there and when three other staff went in, I felt with the

complaints that I am getting that people are overworked and stressed out, that

maybe they were put in there to assist the people who are there. I can

understand that.

MS BURKE: No. We monitored the dates and the time to process applications

and do the non-emergency work, and our numbers are indicating that we are

managing and that we are able to get the work processed.

MR. BUTLER: I brought this up before: Are there any plans - I do not know

if that is the right word, plans. I will put it straightforward. Will the staff

at Carbonear office be transferred to St. John's anytime in the immediate

future.

MS BURKE: Not in the immediate future, and we do have a commitment that

we will be having an office in Carbonear. We will be rolling out the new service

delivery models similar to what was rolled out on the West Coast. There are

different services in this new model that are offered in different offices. How

the model will actually be set up in the Avalon right now has not been

determined. We are looking at the West Coast model. We are looking at best

practices and we are looking at the practicality of how we are going to be

setting up this new system.

There will be presence in Carbonear, but how this system rolls out on the

Avalon, we are still in the process of going through that setup here on the

Avalon.

MR. BUTLER: I do not mean to sound sarcastic when I say this: When you

said, they will not be moving here in the immediate future, I am just wondering

if you could give me a more defined definition of what the immediate future

might be.

MS BURKE: Well, I used the term immediate future because you used the

term immediate future.

MR. BUTLER: All right. I will get down to the bottom line of what I

thought. I heard with those people there was a strong possibility, it was

rumored first, that it would be September, and now I am hearing December of this

year. Is that correct?

MS BURKE: That decision has not been made. I have to be quite honest, we

have not sat down and put any dates to it like that.

MR. BUTLER: You did mention that there would be an office at Carbonear,

but what I am hearing is there is a strong possibility that all Income Support

would be done through the offices in St. John's and maybe employment services

in Carbonear. Is that a possibility?

MS BURKE: Well, I guess, at this point in time, we do not know how the

roll out is going to be, but I know, certainly in the Western region, Income

Support is being done from more than one site. We have it set up between the Bay

St. George and Corner Brook and the different rolls and that are set up. We are

going to have a look at that model, we are going to see what is going to fit

best for the Avalon, and, as we make those decisions, we will be informing

staff. How that new service delivery is going to actually be set up here on the

Avalon, that decision has not been finalized at this point in time.

MR. BUTLER: Why I ask that, minister, is because I know - and I

understand changes had to be made. We always do not like them. I lost an office,

or the people in my district lost an office, and I know full well since that

time - and I am not speaking for everybody - quite a few people who are in less

fortunate positions are placed in difficult positions now dealing back and forth

with the office in Carbonear. I can only imagine what chaos it would be if this

should happen, and I am saying if. I think I am getting some feeling back from

you, the way you responded, that there is a good possibility the majority of

them might be coming in here. I know you haven't said that.

I will give you an example: There was one lady, her husband passed away, I

went to her house to help her complete some papers and she said: I am going to

bring this to the office in Bay Roberts now. I will get a friend of mine to take

me out there. I said: My darling, the office is closed. Oh no, she said, the

office is not closed, but she found out it was. It cost her $35 to drop a letter

- now she could have put it in the mail, I am not saying that - but it cost her

$35 to take it down, to go to Carbonear, because she wanted to sit down with the

worker. Carbonear is fine, $35, but I am going to tell you there are a lot of

them - I mean, like clients say to me and workers say to me, it all can't be

done by phone or by the mail. Lots of times they have to get them into the

office to deal with situations. For people to have to travel to St. John's, if

that should happen, God forbid, it is going to make it that much worse than what

it is now by moving them into Carbonear. I know Carbonear is not very far from

where we live in Bay Roberts.

MS BURKE: You have a valid concern and, again, I want to address that,

because the system is rolling out on the West Coast. Prior to this, prior to

getting to the level where we are right now, somebody would apply for Income

Support and we would send out the forms - and this happened, probably back in

1998 or so, and you can correct me if any of this needs to be corrected here -

and the client would have to fill out the form and send it back to the office

and it would be reviewed, to see if they needed additional information.

What we have been piloting on the West Coast - and I have been up to see the

workers and I have been there as they are doing the applications. We have also

been conducting a survey of the clients who are being served by this service,

because we need to know that what we are going to be doing here is a move in the

right direction. Under this new telephone application system, when the client

phones in they get to speak to a worker, so they are not phoning in and press

one and press two for this and for that, they are talking to a worker. The

worker is able to key their information into the new computer program that is

set up as they are talking. There may be, in some instances, that the worker can

relay right back to a person that they are not eligible, because there could be

circumstances where someone feels they are. They can fill out those

applications, they send them out to the client who attaches the necessary

documentation that has been reviewed on the phone, and they sign it and send it

back in. I have been talking to people who have actually used that system and

they find that it has been extremely helpful. They do get to talk one on one

with a person. They do get to go through the full application process.

Here is one of the comments that somebody had indicated to me, which I

thought was very interesting. If you go to an office to get somebody to help you

fill out the application, they ask you a question and you do not know the answer

and you do not have the information or the receipts or whatever with you, you

are there without it and you have to go get it or whatever, this was one of the

comments from one client who I had spoken to. She said that as she was going

through the application process she was asked questions and she needed to get

information, she did not have it readily available in front of her. She said she

was able to get the information, come back to the phone and continue on with the

application. She found it very helpful.

When we are talking about this application system it has to be very user

friendly and it has to serve a purpose. The purpose is basically to make this a

better system where people can have access to workers, they can understand the

application process, they can ask their questions, they can have them answered,

and they do not have to be bogged down filling out the applications. One of the

complaints I have had from the women's centres throughout the Province was the

fact that the application forms were quite complicated. They often had the

clients come into their office and ask for help in trying and fill them out.

This whole process should address some of those issues.

Again, no matter what type of services they are applying for, whether it has

something to do with a funeral or Income Support or whatever, that can all be

done through the telephone with the paper work being done by the worker and just

sent out to the client.

MR. BUTLER: Minister you mentioned there about the telephone system, and

no doubt it is probably helpful like that. One of the biggest problems that they

are having in my area now, and I can speak personally on it - by the way, what I

am going to say is no reflection on any of the workers who were in the Bay

Roberts office or any of the workers in the Carbonear office. I know them all

personally, and they are doing the best they can under the circumstances. When

the office was open in Bay Roberts, I could call out any time - I didn't

always get through to them, I got a message manager or what have you, but some

time that day they got back to me. Since it has been moved into Carbonear, I do

not know what the change is. The people are still there, I have nothing against

them, they have nothing against me. When I call down now sometimes it is

probably a week or longer before I can get a response back; not all of the time.

It is very seldom that you will call there - the front desk, I think there are a

couple of people there and that is constantly busy. When you call through to one

of the workers you get the message manager. It is not that they are not doing

the work, I can guarantee you that, but the message managers are always full. It

is very difficult to get through there. I do not know if it is something within

the telephone system, but I am going to tell you, as soon as they get my

message, once they get it, they call you back. It is not that part of it.

MS BURKE: No.

MR. BUTLER: There is something not working there. Like you said, the

telephone system is good. I get people calling me saying: I cannot get through

down there, Mr. Butler. Can you try to get through for me?

MS BURKE: Yes, we will followup on that, because that is an issue with

regard to the quality of service delivery. The fact that calls go unanswered for

a week to two weeks, that is unacceptable.

MR. BUTLER: I have had them myself over a week, and there are lots of

cases. I know someone could be off sick. I do not mean that.

MS BURKE: Even if they are off sick and you leave a message on the phone,

there should be a supervisor or another worker who clears that message manager,

who takes the calls, who deals with the issues.

MR. BUTLER: There is someone there on call, right?

MS BURKE: You are okay, you can probably wait, but if you are in a crisis

and you need information about a funeral or something, those messages cannot

wait for two weeks. If they are being left on the phone system we will look into

it and we will deal with it. That is a quality of service issue. Quite frankly,

it is unacceptable.

MR. BUTLER: Like you said, maybe it is unacceptable, but I think it is

something in the system. It is not that the individuals there are not doing

their job.

MS BURKE: If the messages are sitting on the phone for two weeks,

somebody should be taking them off, whether the worker, another worker, or

supervisor. We will look into that. That is a serious issue.

MR. BUTLER: Yes. I know for a fact, and you can check this out, the

caseload for these people, my God the numbers that I have heard, and I do not

have them now and I do not want to repeat them, they are unbelievable, the

number of calls, the caseload that each individual worker has to look at there.

Not only that, the incoming mail, like you said, the mail system, you can use

that. I heard the number of pieces of mail that go into that office down there

now since they are all gone into one is unbelievable. My God, it is a week's

work there for someone to sort the mail that is coming in. The number of people

they have coming in off the street to try to see people, I do not think the

numbers of staff - and I know, Minister, it is a financial thing. Honest to God,

I always harp on the one here in St. John's. From the calls I get, I do not

think the numbers of staff are there to handle it. I hope it is going to correct

itself. I get a lot of calls on that. In my own area, I know personally what it

takes sometimes to get through. I will call and get through to the front desk

and they will say to me: Look, they are in here, they have been drove mad all

morning, there are people coming in off of the street, and this is why their

message managers are building up and filling up on them. Like I said, I am glad

you will check into it.

MS ROOME: One of the things that has changed with the Carbonear office in

just the last month is the way that documents are processed, I believe since

April 11. I think that is the right date. The documents that would have in the

past gone into the Carbonear office for processing are now coming into St. John's.

That is a change in process that should alleviate some of the paper flow in the

Carbonear office. They are coming in here to be scanned electronically, to be

made part of the client's electronic file.

As for the other issues that you mentioned, we are very concerned about that,

as the minister says, and we will follow up.

MR. BUTLER: Being transferred into St. John's, that is not the

beginning of what I asked earlier is it?

MS ROOME: The same process that has happened in our Western region has

already happened in the Water Street -

OFFICIAL: (Inaudible).

MS ROOME: All the Western documents are scanned electronically. It is

moving from paper files to electronic files.

MS BURKE: And that is done here as well.

MS ROOME: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: Minister, for a better word I will call it the new pay system

that is being implemented here in St. John's: Is that working properly here

now or are there still bugs to be taken out of the system?

MR. ROBERTS: The new pay system has been fully implemented out in our

Western region, and on February 7 it was introduced to our metro offices in St.

John's. We monitor it every day, and in our view it is working very well. All

of our staff received training for two weeks during the fall and winter, but

like any big system there are growing pains. Sometimes, because of the growing

pains and the learning curves and so on, it may take a little longer to process

a transaction than you would under the old system because it is new and people

are getting used to it. The information we are getting from the West Coast,

where it has been, is that once the staff get used to it and the learning curve

and so on, it is working very well and there are efficiencies for the department

and of course clients.

MR. BUTLER: From time to time here at this office in St. John's, do you

have to convert back to the old system?

MR. ROBERTS: Yes. Well, the old system which is called FACTS and the new

one which is CAPS, to use some acronyms, both systems are in place at the

present time and will be until the new system is fully implemented in the whole

Province.

MR. BUTLER: Minister, there was a program in our area called the Trinity

Conception Community Employment Corporation. I think that is administered

through your department, is it?

MS BURKE: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: I know there were some problems that came up there back a few

months ago. I do not want to go into any detail with it or anything like that,

but I had concerns with the way I thought the people were running that program,

not all the people who were hired on within the system. I was involved not with

that particular program but way back when it started out in the beginning. I

forget what it was called then. Mr. Roberts probably remembers. This was back

quite a few years ago. I was involved in the program through the Lions Club as a

sponsor, where we used to teach them skills and things like that, the

individuals involved in the program.

My understanding with this program out there was, there was something

happened, and I do not condone anything happening, whether it was with the

finances or whatever, but I had major concerns with what I believe happened

towards the volunteers who were on that. This program, to my understanding, was

taken out from under them totally and turned over - I could be corrected here -

with MRON. Now I have nothing against MRON in Carbonear. I am just wondering:

Are they administering the program? Has anyone within the department met with

the committee per se, on the work that they have put into this over the last, I

would say, twenty years or more in the different programs? I thought it was

taken out from under them. I did not think it was appropriate, but then again I

do not know all the answers to it. Speaking to those people, they are all well

respected citizens out there, and I can tell you some of them were really let

down the way it happened. I was just wondering if someone can respond on that. I

am amazed we have not hear more about it, to be honest with you.

MS JEANS: The Trinity Conception Employment Corporation was funded by

HRSDC for the operating funds, and they investigated the Trinity Conception

corporation, and, as a result of that investigation, suspended funding to them.

Our government provides funds for the co-workers, and that is the persons with

disabilities who go to work. This government provides funds for someone to go to

work with them, and support. As a result of HRSDC suspending their operation

with that, we did not want to have a negative impact on the clients and wanted

to continue that service as best as possible, and looked for an alternative

service, someone who could continue with that program, and MRON was identified.

I understand a number of members of the previous board are part of a

sub-committee with MRON that run that program. The HRSDC and our department

signed a contract with MRON to continue providing that service.

MR. BUTLER: You are saying, the people who were with the Trinity

Conception Community Development Corporation, since this incident, have gone on

a sub-committee with MRON?

MS JEANS: Some of the people who were involved with the board, I believe,

are on a sub-committee of MRON looking after this particular program.

MR. BUTLER: The incident that took place which caused this, has that been

resolved? Was there any court action, were you people concerned, and was your

financial situation involved? I know your money goes into helping the workers to

go to work with the individuals. Was there any concern from the provincial end

of it? What happened there or were there charges? Maybe you cannot elaborate on

that.

MS JEANS: I know our internal audit division was advised, and involved at

the time, as to what the final outcome has been. I am not sure what that is at

the moment. The department was involved as was HRSDC.

MR. BUTLER: The only reason I raised it was those individuals - and I am

glad to hear that some of them, possibly, are gone with a sub-committee of MRON.

If there are eight or ten people on a committee and they have someone hired on -

and it is my understanding that is where the problem was - I could not see those

people being let down like they were because of someone they had hired on. They

have control over it, I suppose, yes, to a certain degree, but so do banks have

control over clerks, and we hear talk of $30,0000, $40,000 or $50,000 missing

sometimes. That was the reason I raised it. I was really concerned about those

people for the work that they put into. I was just wondering if anyone within

the department had met with them or contacted them in any way, because it seemed

like it was pulled out under them and turned over to somebody else.

MS JEANS: At the time, the district manager in Bay Roberts, in our

office, as well as the HRSDC district manager, were in discussions with the

board.

MR. DENINE: Roland, further to what you were just saying there, I was

aware of that back last summer when it happened, and I have to tell you that the

first concern was for the clients, the people who use the service out there.

That was upper most in our minds. I have to say, the staff at HRLE and with HRSD

acted very quickly. The uppermost thing in our minds - and I understand where

you are coming from because of the volunteers which is very treasured, as far as

I am concerned - but uppermost in our minds was the client that was availing of

the service. I have to tell you, without the swift action of our department and

HRSD it could have been worse. I have to say they handled it quite

professionally and I think it is working okay there now. Like I say, I am glad

to hear people are working on the sub-committee. That was the most important

thing.

MR. BUTLER: Since making that comment, the program is still ongoing, just

as strong and as vibrant as it was before?

MR. DENINE: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: With regard to the department paying rent, I know now it goes

to the client rather than to the landlord.

MS BURKE: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: I wonder if I can get some explanation on how that is

determined, because I will tell you, I had an incident this week where a lady

went to this individual, went to a landlord, this lady who is on assistance, a

single parent, who went to her landlord and he said: No, you cannot come into my

apartment unless the rent is coming directly to me. I said to her: Look, that is

incorrect. This is what I said to her, and I do not know if it is right or

wrong. In this apartment that she is moving into, in Shearstown, all the other

clients, to my understanding, in that building, their rent is being paid

directly to that landlord. I am wondering: How can so many people - I mean, it

is supposed to go to the individual. There are lots of times I disagree with it,

because I know some people who are getting the rent are not going to do

anything, and are not going to give it to the landlord anyway.

MS BURKE: I would like to comment on that. The reason why it goes to the

client - and I will get specific to that in a second - the reason why it goes to

a client is just going back to how we treat clients with dignity and respect. We

give them their money, and they have to spend it, just as our paychecks come to

us. Nobody is going to pay our mortgage for us, nobody is going to pay our car

payment, we will take that responsibility. There is a dignity about us, that we

take our money and we spend it as we should, just as a client has that same

level of self respect and dignity to make their own payments. It makes them

reliant. It helps with integration into the community. Who wants the government

doing stuff for you, having to pay your rent for you, having to buy your

groceries for you? That is not the way we are going. That will never help people

and will never give them dignity.

Now, if there is a particular building in a particular town, as you are

speaking of - and we can look into this - where the clients are not given that

same level of dignity and respect - however, if there is landlord out there who

will not allow them, who will not give them - frankly, I do not have a lot of

tolerance for people who treat people on Income Support differently from other

people. If you went down to that building and you had a job and you were a

teacher, would he expect the government or the school board to send the rent

directly to him? When you set up a double standard and you treat people who are,

probably, the most vulnerable in our communities, differently, you put a

different set of rules on them, I have very little tolerance for that. However,

if there is a system set up - and I do not want to throw people out on the

street either - then we can work with that. If this one single mother is being

singled out and treated differently, we can do that. There are times, as well,

at the request of the client -

MR. BUTLER: Oh, yes.

MS BURKE: That can happen. I mean, there are many reasons why people

would prefer to have their rent there. I do not have to get into a lot of it.

There could be issues of addiction again. It could be issues of mental health.

It could be issues from the landlord that we are, frankly, not aware of, how

they are treating people, but it is from a client request. If there is a

specific problem with a single mother who needs an apartment, she is being

singled out and treated differently from other people living in that apartment,

we will deal with that. You know, if you bring that to our attention, we will

address it.

MR. BUTLER: Maybe I am jumping the gun on this, maybe all the other

people in that apartment meet the criteria you just listed. I am not saying

that. Maybe they all did go to their case managers or what have you, or CSOs or

what have you, and they met the criteria to have it sent to the landlord.

MS BURKE: That is possible.

MR. BUTLER: That is possible.

MS BURKE: But we can look at that.

MR. BUTLER: If it is true what she is telling me, she was more or less

told: No, I am sorry. If you can get it paid directly to me, not a problem.

MS BURKE: Yes, and t