Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 36B (35th Legislature, 5th Session)

35-5-36b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fifth Sessi on • Tbirty-Flfth Legislature ofthe Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (Hansard) Published undtr tht t�uthorltJ of The Honourable Dtnls C. Roc11n Spe11ktr Vol. XLID No. 368 • 8 p.m., Monday, May 30,1994 JSSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGIS LA'nVE ASSE MBLY Thlrty-F1fth Legislature Memben, Coastltueades and PoUtlcal Al'lllla tlon NAME ASHI'ON, Steve BARRB'M', Becky CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERJLLI, Marianne CHOMIAK. Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louiae DBRKACH. Leonanl, Hon. DBW AR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNBY,James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Geny, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Hany, Hon. ERNST, fun, Hon. BVANS,Clif BV ANS, Leooanl S. FU..MON, Gary, Hon. FJNDLA Y, Olen, Hon. FRIBSBN,Jean GAUDRY,Nell Gll.LBS HAMMBR, Huold, Hon. GRAY, Avis HEL WBR, Bdward R.

IDCKBS, Ocorp KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LA1HL1N, Oscar LAURBNDB.AU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Oonl MALOWAY, fun MANNP.SS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Dong Mc.ALPINH, Geny McCORMICK, Nanna MceltAJB,James,Hon. MciNTOSH, Uncia, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PAU.ISTBR. Brian PBNNBR. 1ack PLOHMAN,1olm PRAZNIK. Danen, Hon. RBID,Daryl RBIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSB,Bob sANTos, Conrad SCHEl.LBNB BRG, Hany STEP ANSON, Brie, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVBINSON, Ben VODRBY, Roaemary, Hon.

WOWCHUK, Rosann CONS'ITlUBNCY Thompson Wellington River Heights Radisson Kildonan Ste.Roae Seine River Roblin- Russell Selk.Uk Concordia Anhur- Virden Steinbach Riel St.Jamea Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon Bast Tuxedo Springfield Wolaeley St. Boniface Minne dosa Crescentwood Gimli Point Douglas The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norbert St. 1o1m• Blmwood Morris B wrow s Sturgeon Creek Osborne Brandon West Assinlboia River But Pembina Portage Ia Prairie Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St.

Vital Rupertsland Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Rossmere Kiddi eld Pam Flin Flon La Verendrye Fort Garry Swan River PARTY. NDP NDP Liberal NDP NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC Liberal PC NDP Liberal Liberal NDP PC NDP NDP PC NDP PC Liberal PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP

2647 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MANITOBA Monday, May 30, 1994 The House met at 8 p.m. ORDERS OF THE DAY (continued) COMMITT EE OF SU PPLY (Conco iTellt Sectio DS) EDUCATI ON AND TRAINING Mr. Deputy Chairperson (Marcel Laurendeau ): Good evening. Will the committee please come to order. The committee will be resuming coDJide ration of the Estimates of the Department of Education and Training. When the committee last sat, it had been considering item 6.(b)( l) (

a) on page 44. Shall the item pass? Mr. John Ploh man (Dauphin ): Are we still on, did you say 6.(a)7 Mr. Deputy Chairpers on: No, 6.(b)(

l) Colleges Secretariat $21 4,200. Mr. Plohman: My colleague critic is going to be here shortly. She is in another meeting that is going to keep her for a short while , but I wanted to ask a couple of que stions about the Assiniboine Comm unity College in Dauphin. Could I ask that under this Secretariat line? Okay, Mr. Deputy Cbaiipers on, I wonder if we could get from the minister, if it has not been distributed already, the board membership for each of the community colleges . Bon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Education and Training): Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, what is the wish of the member, that I read this in, or does be want a copy of the listings I have before me? Mr. Plohman: I would ap preciate a copy of the list. Mr. Manness: Table the d ocum ent. Mr. Plohman: The Deputy Chairperson is really moving things right along today. I wanted also to ask-I have not seen the list yet, but it is my understanding that there may have been some major changes in the board and also representation from various areas. Has there been any change in the geo graphic repre sentation requir ements , or was there ever any under this government? Mr. Manness: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, I cannot recall having filled any positions since I have been in the ministry. I understand there is a vacancy at ACC and a vacancy at KCC, but from recollection, we have not added over the last number of mo nths. Mr. Plohman: Well, it may not have been this minister. It ma y have been under the previous minister, as well, if there were. My question stands as to whether the government bas made any changes as to the representation requirements . Is there any requirement for Assiniboine Community College to have regional representation on the board? Mr.

Manne ss: It is not mandated anywhere in the colle ges. Is there a colleges act? I guess there is, yes, but we fully expect that both of the institutions in question, indeed, Red River Community College will see fit to reach across not only the local comm unity but, of course , into the district. When we talk about college s, I would think that there should be an expectation that the board representation be fairly wide. Mr. Plohman: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, I look at the-and I thank the minister for the listing for the Boa rd of Gover nors of the Assiniboine Community Col lege that appears to be: one, two, thre e, fo ur, five, six, seven from Brandon; one fr om Souris; one from Ross burn; one fr om Wawanesa; and one from Minnedosa. But obviously there are none from, as it looks at least on that list, really north of Riding Mountain or what is commonly known as the Parkland region. Rossbum could be considered part of the Parkland,

2648 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May30, 1994 but it certainly is not part of the northern portion of the greater part of the Parldand region. Of course, Dauphin bas the Parkland campus and yet no representation. I find that rather odd. Does the minister have any comments or rationale for that? Mr. Manness: No, I do not, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, but given that I understand we have one vacancy, we will endeavour to at least try to have representation coming from the north Parldands area. Certainly the member's point is well taken. Mr. Plohman: There has been a suggestion, Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, that the Progre ssive Conservative candidate for Dauphin, the provincial constituency, be offered the position-! do not know whether he wants to spend his time on that right now or not, so it would be something-! guess I ap preciate that the minister will give an undertaking to try to fill that position with a representation from the Parldand north of Riding Mountain Parle or in that area. I would hope that the Dauphin area could be represented in addition to others from the Parldand region.

I guess I want to ask the minister whether, petbaps, there should be some consideration for at least two positions from that area. The minister may be able to prov ide us with some inf onn ation as to the number of students serviced at the Assiniboine Community College campuse s, and that would give us an idea as to the degree that they are utilized. I know there was a tremendous demand for Assiniboine Community College servi ces in the Parlcland. When surveys were done by the Regional Development Cotporation prior to the establishment of the Parldand campus, there was a tremendous demand.

The minister may be aware that the studies that have been done by Worldorce 2000, Assini boine Community College and the Employment and Immi gration off ices in Dauphin, there is a tremendous demand for training, as a matter of fa ct, a lower than average completion of Grade 9 education in the Parkland as a whole than the average for Manitoba. The surveys that were done showed a very great demand for the technical courses that are being off ered at the community college now and obviously room for expansion there.

I am not sur e whether there were more representatives in the past, and I would like the minister to give us some historical inf onnation on this , if he could, from his staff as to whether Dauphin has been represented on this board in the past-1 believe it was at least with one member, well, perhaps more-and if he can, any other rationale for only considering perhaps one member from there . Does he not think, out of a board of 12 peop le, that there could at least be two from the Parlclands region? Mr. Mann ess: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, this is not an ea sy exer cise .

The member has been in government long enough to know that

Section 9.(2) of the act says, and I quote : Lieutenant Governor-in- Council shall have regard to the desirability of achieving on the board an equitable representation of the diversity of the educational and community interests in the region in which the college provides programs and service s. That is quite a mandate. When you try to balance obviously gender considerations with ethnic representation and then geog raphical representation and then program representation, it is a pretty tough process.

I do not know why it is that Dauphin does not have a representative on the board, but I will undertake to try and find out and see how it is that we can bring a fair balance because, again, the membe r's point is well taken. I know there are a larger number of enrollments in the Dauphin region, and we will do our best to fill a position again from some body that is in the north Parlclands area. The member is asking for two, but let us find one first if we can. Mr.

Plohman: Well, I am looking not only at the immediate, and I hope that the minister will attempt to and I thank the mi nister for the undertaking for filling the one vacancy, but I am looking in the longer tenn here, and I see seven out of the 11 that are there from Bran don. Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Chair person, all I know is that I understand there are roughly between 9,000 and 10 ,000 students enrolled at

May30, 1994 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2649 ACC. Roughly 1,000 of those come by way of the Dauphin campus. So, if the member wants to go to strict arithmetic, that is one in 10. One to 12 is closer that one in six. So I do not know bow to do this, but again, the member makes his point. •

(2010) Mr. Plohman: Would the minister say that about seven-twe lfths or more of those come fr om Brandon? Of the 9,000 or 10,000, do we see about 6,000 from the city of Brandon? That would be rather high, it seems to me. I notice there are seven representatives there, and I guess what I am bringing to the minister's attention that this draws from a large mral area I app reciate his statements about finding gender balance and regional balance, but at the same time, it seems just with the main campus located in Brandon that pemaps we have an overabundance of representation from Brandon.

Of course, it is more convenient to attend meetings and so on in terms of board membem being there close by. It is something that we all struggle with with boards that peJ.baps sit in W"mnipeg and trying to get to regional representation knowing that it is very difficult and expensive to get people together from large distances. But it seems to me that a community college such as this, which really is mral based, should have a better distribution of representation on the board. That is really my point, as primarily raising it from Dauphin 's perspective.

Since there is no one there, but certainly just looking at the preponderance of representation from Brandon, peJ.baps it is skewed a little bit too much in that regard. I understand the minister is going to review the-or will he? I guess I will ask the minister if be decides the question he answered for me dealing with Dauphin specifically whether he will review the overall representation with a view to ensuring fair regional representation on this board if in fact that is not the case now. Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, it does not wotk, it is not quite that simple. My remarks stand.

It depends what the greater priority is at the time, because if I try to give equal weight to all of the factors that come into play when you select representati ves, sometimes one bas to give. Sometimes it is a regio nal one.

You have got a good person who would serve well representing a region, the next thing you know you look at the balance around the gender basis which you try to bring to the board and so me of the other areas of expertise you want to see represented, and all of a sudden a good representative you have that you know will do a good job to represent that particular district is no longer acceptable, not because of the academic background but because maybe somebody else bas more of the other calling. My early remarks stand. Mr.

Plohman: Well, this is something that I think the minister could commit to over time, and certainly we can find good representatives from every region of the province if we were to look hard enough. We have qualified people, I am sure. Mr. Deputy Cbairperson, I think I would also like to know, are there any other satellite fa cilities such as the Dauphin facility currently for Assini boine Community College? Mr. Mannesa: Yes, there are tluee others. They are located in Russell, in Neepawa and in Viiden. Mr. Plobman: Does the minister have the enrollment numbers for each including Dauphin as of this past yea(! Mr.

Mannesa: Yes I do, Mr. Deputy Chaiipe rson. Russell 175; Neepawa 260; Virden 220; Dauphin, as I said bef ore, was in the range of a thousand. Mr. Plohman: Well, I think that makes my point. Not one of those communities is represented on the board, and it would seem with the satellite campuses that would be a logical place to ensure that there is representation from each of those communities, altho ugh Rossbum is close to Russell. I think that is an important point.

Is there an advisory board in place for each of these satellite fac iliti es, and can the minister provide us with a copy of the representatives on those boards for each of those locations . Mr. Manness: The answ er to the question is yes. Each bas a regional board, I guess, of appoint ees, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, because we do not

2650 LBGISLAllVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May30, 1994 appoint and, theref ore, we do not even have a listing. So those are put into place by the boards and they would have that inf onnation. Mr. Plohman: I think the Liberal critic said that we should pass the public schools capital while he is away. Is that what-[inte rjection] Oh, do not pass it. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, what I would like to do is ask the minister whether there are any plans to expand the number of sites that are presently there insofar as satellite campuses, and also whether there is any intention for major expansion at existing sites.

Mr. Mann ess: These locations have been in place fo r a year. Right now, there are no business plans being developed towards further expansion, at the present time. Mr. Plohman: Is there a report that has been done that makes rec ommendations with regud to the future role of these satellite campuses, and can the minister share that with us? Mr. Manness: The answer is no, and that consi deration or request for analysis certainly would be within the purview of the boards . Mr. Plohman: Is the minister saying that the individual boards are undertaking either a study or a business plan, as the minister called it?

Is that a requirement for each of the boards? Mr. Manness: All three colleges have strategic plans and pr obably lon g-ra nge planning subcommittees of their boards. 1bere is no doubt in my mind at least , as far as lo oking for off -campus sites in the traditional sense, we are not aware of any p ressure building to add to the list. Certainly the fo cus today is on distance education, delivering by signal, at one fas hion or another, pro gramming into areas, much differe nt than the off -campus design that we have talked about over the course of the last few minutes. Mr.

Plohman: Does the minister see then a phasing out of the kind of campus-style satellite locations that have been established or perhaps no further expansion due to distance education? What is he sugg esting by his answ er? Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I know the member is bud-pressed for questions . I am not suggesting such a thing. I do not see a great change, but resources today do not allow for an expansion of sites in an off -campus sense. •

(2020) Mr. Plohman: I do not ap preciate the minister reflecting on whether I am hard-pressed for questions. I am very concerned about the impact. It just shows the minister's arr ogance. I hate to say that, but it deteriorates to that point when he gives those kinds of answers. He has to remember that we are dealing with an important issue that is important for the Dauphin constitue ncy. It is extremely important that we have representation on the board.

I think the minister has been derelict in his duties that he has not, in fact, ensured that that campus, the Parldand campus, was represented on the Bo ard of Governors of the Assiniboine Community College in Brandon. It is unfortunate that I would have to raise this with him instead of him seeing that fo r himself. He has fo ur communities that are not represented and each of those had a satellite location campus fo r Assiniboine Community Col lege.

When I ask questions about the boards and the expansion plans, if any, or in fact if their plans are such that there will be a reduction in the activity at these satellite campuses, the minister says I am bud -pressed fo r questions . I would suggest that the minister should take these questions seriously . He could do a lot worse than take these questions seriously. I believe he has done worse in tenns of his attention paid to the community colleges over the last while as the Minister of Finance and, certainly, worse since then. An Honourable Member: Do not say worse, sir. Mr.

Plohman: The ministe r does not have to worry about me calling him sir, I am in no mood to do that. Let me tell him that we would like to see a long-term plan of expansion at the Parkland campus. We are a region that is underserviced, I believe. The fact that we have 1, 000 students , in the ministe r's words, receiving some degree of

May 30, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2651 ttaining at the Parldaod campus indicates that there is a tremendous demand there . I want to know from the minister whether be has any plan whatsoever in place to e nsure that there is a ma jor expansion of the services in the Parkland region? Can we expect any expansion, or in fact are there going to be reductions? The minister has increased the budget, after a major cut a few years ago in community colleges , now by 3.3 percent I believe this year.

How is that going to manifest itself in terms of the services delivered at the Parkland campus of the Assini boine Community Col lege? Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Cbaiipe rson, I am just so thankful I did not criticize the member for his questions, or that I did not say they were ridicu lous, or that I did not say that be bad no business asking them, then I really would have been attacked. I accept the words of wisdom from the member for Dauphin. Again, as I have stated bef ore, how the new board handles the additional support that they will en joy as a result of this budget, I cannot say.

Certainly, if it is a program expansion, we will want to see where it-not where it is, but what program offerings that might be contemplated if there is enough mo ney to expand program offerings. As far as loca tional expansi ons, my earlier comment stands. As far as trying to see a wider representation on the board taking into account the Parklands region, bearing in mind, Mr. Deputy Cbaii person, that there are regional committees appointed, certainly within the Parkland area, that gives direct impact to, I imagine , the board. Again, my remarks are stated on the record. Mr.

Plohman: Does the minister receive any reports from the comm unity colleges as to offerings that have been made there in the past year in tenns of courses or plans fo r the upcoming year? Is that part of the information the minister routinely receives? Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, we are always aware of the programs that have been offered in the past year, but in tenns of '94-95, we soon expect to be receiving an indication of what the colleges are offering in programming for the new year. Mr. Plohman : Is there any ef fort made to co-ordinate the programs that are off ered?

Are these entirely within the purview of the regi onal boards? Mr. Manness: In a sense there is, because I have the ability to app rove new pro gramming. So to the extent that there seems to be unw arranted replication of offerings beyond the market demand for skills , I have an opp ortunity to reflect on the decision because, obviously, the plans from campu ses may be put in in isolation from each other. So there has to be kind of a cle aring-house, and that happens within the ministry. Mr.

Plohman: That is good to bear because that is one of the concerns we bad when the new system of governance was established, that there would not be the co-ordination that is desirable , it would seem. Is there any plan to offer LPN upgrading or an R.N. course for LPNs who would like to get their R.N. designation, particula rly in light of the uncertainty about the future role of LPNs, at least as this gov ernm ent bas presided over that issue? Mr. Mann ess: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, in the ACC context, the Brandon General is in charge of the nursing progra m, so I do not think the question app lies in this case .

Mr. Plohman: The minister may not be aware of the historical background on this issue, but there was a desire , certainly, I beli eve, is a desire, to have an R.N. course offered in Dauphin out of the Assin iboine Comm unity College and in con junction with the Dauphin Regional Health Centre, which in fact can quite , I think, comfortably provide the variety of experiences for R.N.s or student R.N.s. In that context, is the minister aware of the background on the issue, and is there any roadblock from his end of it that would prevent this from happening? Mr.

Mann ess: It see ms to me that this was being discussed three years ago , and then it kind of fe ll apart when one of the ma jor pla yers , in this case, Brandon General Hospital, did not see fit, by my

2652 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May30, 1994 recollection at least, to maintain their involvement in trying to plan toward a diffe rent system . So I know the aspirations of regions to see this type of training and this type of upgrading, if I dare use the word, certainly leading to higher certification or standing, but the whole health ref orm pr ocess also will have to have an involvement in passing jud gment as to whether these courses ultimately are sanctioned. Mr.

Plohman: Is the minister plugged into that process then at the present time, and is be recommending anything with regard to ttaining of certain professions-in this case, I am discussing registered nursing training-or is this something that will be dictated by the policy of the Department of Health, the ministry of Health to the Minister of Education later? Mr. Manness: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, there is no doubt that Health bas a significant intluence and lead here, because the fact is there is no use training and retraining a number of individuals who would be practitioners when there may not be the opportunities for them to practice. So this is an area where obviously there bas to be a stricter balance brought into place , and as far as scarce resources being directed towa rds traini ng, hope fully then with the expectation that there will be employment at the end of the day. So yes, Health bas a si gnificant influence in these decisions. •

(2030) Mr. Plohman : What advice would the minister give to people in the Parkland who might want to have a course offered for the ttaining of registered nurses? There are many LPNs who want to take this course, and perhaps othe rs. What advice would you offe r as to the potential for this to happen, what action they should take, and so on? Mr. Mann ess: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I do not know what the member is foc using upon.

Is be focusing upon whether or not in generic tenns, individuals who have LPN standing should try to improve their status, or is be saying what approach do they take to make sure that there might be an add itional off ering with respect to nu rsing located in Dauphin? I have no advice to give other than try and stay close to the whole refonn process in Health and see where the shortages are.

Certainly, there seems to be greater shortages of nurses, there seems to be greater opp ortunities in northern Manitoba, and bearing in mind that I know Keewatin Community College is also very interested in fo cusing some add itional training in this area. Mr. Plohman : Yes, well, I understand there is quite an extensive demand, certainly there is in the Parkland region from repre sentation I have bad made to me. It is a question of who is going to be able to make this happen. What is the limiting fa ctor here?

Is it strictly dollars, or are there some other political consid erations, not necessa rily large P political, but wit hin organizations that are involved? What precisely is involved in making a decision, and bow can the minister help in this regard? Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I do not have to tell the member; be knows what the issues are. Obviously, dollars are a dimension of it. Right now, the member knows that there are two R.N. programs being of fered in Keewatin Community College . He also knows the broader issue is, what is the preferred level of entry into nursing?

Is it the Baccalaureate or is it the regi stered program 7 I mean, there are a lot of issues swirling around the whole nursing spectrum these days . Mr. Plohman: I do not know if the minister is seeking to avoid the issue. I am working from the basis that there is a considerable number of LPNs who want to take their R.N. training, and they want to take it close to home, in this case in the Parkland region, more specific ally in Dauphin because of the facility that is there in terms of the hospital and the community colle ge, so I am just asking the minister bow be can help fa cilitate that.

There are no prom ises. I am not asking him fo r a promise it is going to happen. I just want to ask him whether there are certain actions that they should take. Should they make representatio n? Should they sign a petition? Should they write -

May 30, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2653 letters or meet with certain groups, with the nurse s' prof ess ional organization, or with Brandon Hospital? Who are the most appropria te people for them to see? Mr. Manness: Mr.

Deputy Chairpers on, naturally the member 's constituents are welcome to contact the college and obviously contact the deparunent, but again I state for the record, there are many locations that would like to have this type of training within their commun ity , and I can understand why, but ultimate demand by the system for registered nurses, ultimate financing or res ources available to reach out to obviously not all of the requests, but to some share of them will determine the location. Right now, would the member then care to suggest which ones give up their programs so that they can be shifted?

Because that is basically the period we are in. We are not in adding on new programs. We are basic ally at a time of shifting program from one location to the next, and if he bas some recomm endation that he would like to make as to where we shift, I will certainly gladly receive it. Mr. Plohman: The minister knows that there are not many locations or not every location that can accommodate the practical training for registered nurses because of the lack of di versity of experience in rural hospitals . So, Mr.

Deputy Chairpers on, I think the minister realizes that there are not an awful lot of locations where this can be accomplished, and Dauphin is one of those, in addition where there is not now. What it means is that a certain number of placements, if the re are only a certain number being trained, would have to be transferred from perhaps Brandon if in fact those students are coming from Daup hin in the first place and have to travel. That is the whole idea here I think with satellite camp uses , to provide the training close to home so they do not have to live away from their families in many cases.

These are women who have children and who are having to travel distance s, making it very difficult for them and their fam ilie s. They would like to be closer to home. So what I am looking at here and asking these questions is whether in fact there are a sufficient number of these who could be transferred to take their course and register in Dauphin as opposed to in Brandon, and it would not be offered every year. It could be offered every few years or as long as the demand was there.

I am working on the assumption that the demand is there now, and on that basis, I am asking the minister whether in fact some of these positions could be reallocated to Dauphin so that the training could in fact take place there closer to home for most of these students. Mr. Mann ess: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, two points . Firstly, the member now wants us to take control of the boards again and dictate where it is they should be off ering programs and what program s.

But secondly, be ignores the fact that, and be might not be aware of this although I sense be is, that the Manitoba Association of Registered Nurses, the prof essional ann of the nurses, bas never appro ached the government with respect to increasing the number of registered nurse offerings, because it seems to me that their point of view, and again I could be wrong, but their point of view is that entry level into nursing should come along with or be equivalent to a B. N. Mr. Deputy Chairpers on, if that is the case, then it is not just the syste m that the member is reflecting upon.

He is reflecting upon the prof essi onal arm of the nurses in Manitoba because, again, they have not seen fit, at least, to recommend to us that there be an expansion of the offering of the registered nurses pr ogram. Mr. Plohman: To conclude this , I am reflecting on the minister 's lack of ini tiative and lack of clarity in his an swers, not on any other organization, so let him not try to deflect this. I was simply asking the minister for some straight answers insofar as bow be could be of some help thro ugh his good of fices. Obviously, he is not prepared to offer too much in that regard. Thank you, Mr.

Deputy Chaitperson. Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson) : I just have one question in terms of community co lleg es. I know that part of this bas probably been covered in some

2654 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May30, 1994 of the discussi ons taking place in the Roblin report. 1be reason I am raising it under this particular item is beca use the Roblin report specifica lly pinpointed an expanded role not only for community colleges generally but also for Keewatin Community College vis-�-vis the whole question of post -secondary education in the North, and I want to indicate that there are many different models that could be adopted.

For years, many of us in northern Manitoba in talking about the need for northern polytechn ic, which essentially would combine university and community college programs-it has often been described as northern unive rsity, and that is true in the generic sense, but it would go beyond that. •

(2040) In the ACCESS Programs, we had discussions about the need for co- ordination between programs. This is one of the areas that has been pinpointed by people in the ACCESS Programs themselves, as a way of saving money and also allowing those resources to be put forward for expanded education. What I want to focus on in the question is exactly that, bringing together existing programs and improving educational access, and by the way, not just in northern Manitoba but acros s Manitoba · as a whole.

I have often called for the equivalent of an Inter-Unive rsities Manitoba, so to speak, which takes some of the many advantages that we have in northern Manitoba in the fonn of IUN, which has tmnsferability of credits, flexibility, et cetera, and would apply that to rwal Manitoba where there has been some expansion of accessibility through the FYDE pro gram but where much more could be done.

I want to ask the minister what his response is to the Roblin report in the context of KCC, northern polytechnic, co-ordination of se rvices, and second of all, what his response is in tenns of not just northern Manitoba but all of rural Manitoba, as I said, in teuns of co-oldinating existing programs and expanding them as was recommended by the Roblin report very clearly in its conclusions ? Mr. Manness : Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I cannot scoop myself because I will certainly be making a more definitive statement with respect to this whole iss ue when I release on Roblin.

Obviously , I support the member strongly when he calls for even greater general co-ordination between all of the educational activities that are trying to be provided to northern residents .

I support his call to all our insti tutions to work more closely together, to take the existing model and build upon it, but as far as how far we go beyond that in providing a centre with powers beyond those that exist today, the member will have to waiL I regret having to say that, but I will be trying to provide some greater insight into our thinking once we bring down the statement reflecting upon the recommendations of the Roblin report. Mr. �uty Chairpers on: Shall the item pass? Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolsele y): Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, the Roblin commission 's perspective on community colleges was one of encouraging expansion and putting some very specific goals for the government, and I know the minister has already discussed this with the member for Crescentwood (Ms. Gray). I wonder if we could look at particularly the programs that Roblin targeted, and those were the dipl oma progra ms. These are the ones where we are able to have consistent numbers and a consistent record over the years of the changes in enrollment patte rns and graduation patte rns.

Could the minister give me an idea of what the numbers of graduates were and enrollments in those programs in perlla ps the last couple of years, whatever numbers he has available at the moment, and what he anticipates those enrol lments and grad uation rates will be in the di ploma programs, not talking about the market-driven strategies or the Canadian Jobs Strategy or all of the short-tenn courses that are offered, but those diploma programs which are comparable year to year? Mr. Manness : Mr. Deputy Chairperson, in broad tenns, within the diploma area, 3,500 en rollments , appro xima tely 950 graduates. Ms.

Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, which year is that for? Mr. Mann ess: '93-94.

- May30, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2655 Ms. Friesen: Does the minister have inf onn ation for the previous years, say, '92-93 7 Mr. MaDness: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, we have comparable in the graduate numbers, 915 in terms of '92-93, so the total number of graduates bas increased by a total of 35. Ms. Friesen: So what Roblin is suggesting is a very precise number of over 1,800 graduates five years from now. 1be minister bas suggested that that is not what he is interested in, that he is looking at that as a gene ral recommendation. Mr. MaDness: Mr.

Deputy Cbairperson, I did not say I was not interested in that. That is nonsense. What I said was I do not see how the government can commit to a bard goal in keeping with the recommendation. I said we are very interested to see what we can do to reach that goal, but certainly there have to be other consi derations. Do not let the member put words in my mouth and say I am not interested in it because that is the furthest from the truth. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the minister is getting rather sensitive. I was not intending to put words in his mouth.

I was saying that he was interested, that he had a general concern in that area . He is being very teSty. How does the minister intend to address the Roblin commission 's recommendations then of moving to 1,800 graduates in the two-year diploma pr ograms? Mr. Mann ess: Mr. Deputy Cbairperson, that is a repeat of a question earlier. We said within the guidelines of the framework for economic growth, within the add itional funding that we are going to try and provide , although Roblin also said that there should be no more dolla rs overall as a perce ntage term directed towards post-secondary education.

Within those guidelines and watching care fully to make sure that the expansion, of course , is in keeping with the general economic thrust of the province and those targeted ind ustries, we will try to ensure that we work in a significant fashion towards that objective. Ms. Friesen: How does ea ch of the colleges determine the needs in their particular area? How are these approxi mately 1 ,800 places going to be allocated? How does each of the colleges within that general allocation, that general goal that Roblin is setting for them, determine what is nee ded?

For example, as the colleges have gone to gove rnance and in relative independence from government, they have had defined geographical areas. So could the minister tell us how each of those boards determines the needs of its community in the absence of labour force development strategies and in the absence of the community economic initiatives which the STAC report recommended. Mr. Manness: Mr.

Deputy Cbairperson, I guess my responses would be no different than I gave many times before, when we were talking about Workforce 2000 in the general context, but there is a market- needs analysis done in a global context that would lend itself to greater usage by the community co lleges, probably in other areas. So that is being done in some dimension. It might not be a quantitative objective method of dea ling with it, but some are trying to do that.

Again, as I said many, many times, it is up to the col leges and their leadersh ip, administrative and at the board level, to try and parallel at least some of the thought process that went into the framework for economic growth. Also, there are department objectives that have to be taken into acco unt The member says, well, how are they dealing with industry ? How do they know? We ll, there is an awful lot of consultation. We have many members of the board, of c ourse , who reflect quite closely the requirements of ind ustry as a whole , and they make their views known to the board. So, Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, those are the general guidelines. The board of governors, in their long-r ange pl anning functions, committees thereof, will earmark those areas they think may be worthy of expansion or expansion into . They will make recom mendations to government by way of their yea rly plans, and government will accord ingly accept or rej ect. So that is how the process wolks. (Mr. Bob Rose, Acting Deputy Cbairperson in the <llair)

2656 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May30, 1994 Ms. Friesen: How does the community make known its needs to the colle ges? What I am hearing from the minister is effectively that he is devolving the overall responsibility for a labour force development strate gy to each of the regional colleges. It does not seem to me from the outside that there are the mechanisms for the col leges to do that Yes , they can speak to the individual people on their boards. Yes, the y may have commi ttees of the boards which perhaps go marginally beyond the areas that the boani represents. •

(2050) How is each of these boards equipped, say, in the case of KCC-wel l, any of the boards for that ma tter? The Red River Community College, which has a huge mandate in geographical and in industrial terms, how is it equipped to deal with creating that labour force development strategy, evaluating the needs of all of the industries of Manitoba, eval uating the educational needs of the employees as well as those of the employ ers, which is the only one the minister seems to be concerned about?

How are those employees, for example , to make kn own their educational req uirements and how they see their economic future in this new process? Mr. Manness: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, there is a good process in place . The member does not like it because she believes there are an awful lot of resources that are available and that all courses and every course that a person wants to take should be off ered. That is the old way. We have discounted that approach. That app roach does not work.

The member is then trying to say, well , how do you know for sure that the courses you are off ering and keeping is what the community wants? We ll, what we are saying, these committees -and I can think of Keewatin Community College as going throughout the north country bringing in input, doing the consolidated process, trying to determine what it is the commu nity thinks it requires in a large fashion, but keeping in mind what the framework for economic growth says is the most important area as a priority for wealth creation in this province . So, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, there is a proce ss.

It is a very in-depth process. It is a very meaningful process, and it is reach ing out in a fashion I would think the member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen ) would be most supportive of. Ms. Friesen: Well, if I were to offer any support, I would like to have some information first. There is no evidence, and there is no informa tion. That is what I am asking the minister to provide . Mr. Manness: I cannot give much mo re information to the member. She has drawn it all out of me. She has it all, and I have just given her the process.

Let us face it, what the member dislikes is the fact that we have gone to more of a market-driven type training that takes into account wealth creation in its purest form. What the member wants is she wants the plan, she wants a plan hammered out in some policy section, and she wants that of course hammered into the consciousness of all the political app oin tees to the boani and indeed to the administration. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Acting Deputy Chair, well, yes, the minister does indicate I am intere sted in p lanning, and indeed I am . I thought governments were interested in plans .

I thought that was one of the responsibilities of government. The minister says that I have plumbed his depths. That surprises me. I thought there was perhaps a little more to be drawn out of the minister, but if this is all be is prepared to offer, if be is prepared to tell me that the range of pl ann ing , the range of connection with communities of Red River Community College is a committee of employers- Mr. Manness: Emplo yers? Ms. Friesen: Yes . Mr. Mann ess: Look at the list of employers tremendous representation across the community. Ms.

Friesen: I do not see any employees on that I do not see any representatives of Bristol Aerospace workers , for example . Mr. Manness: Which one are you looking at? Ms. Fries en: The Board of Governors of Red River.

May30, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2657 Mr. Manness: Oh, Red River. Employees of the colle ge? Ms. Friesen: No, employees of industry. Mr. Mann ess: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, we have a different app roach. The members of course like to stack all of their public institutions with employe es. We like to have a little diff erent balance. We are in position to gove rn, so that is why we are diffe rent. Ms. Friesen: That is exactly right. We are different.

What the minister is doing in his educational policy in fact is enhancing and expanding the role of employers in deterJninjng education, in determining- Mr. Manness: Hear, bear. That is exa ctly what we are doing, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson. Ms. Friesen: Good. I am glad we have that on record. This is public money which is enhancing the role of a parti cular sector of the economy which bas-[interjecti on] Who do you think creates the wealth? I do not believe it.

We ll, it is clearly a very deep divide between us, and I do want to put on the record that the minister seems to think that only one portion of the commu nity bas the right to direct education, only one portion of the community, quote , creates wealth. It is a very, very narrow perspective on the life of this provi nce, and it is certainly a very narrow perspective for the pla nning of any educational futures for this province . But it is certainly the direction this government is taking us in. Mr. Manne ss: The member does not have to become so exercis ed.

She can try and cast my commentary in black and white terms, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson. I recognize that the colleges are a community that is to reach out to most, but there is change, and the change-the member of course she cann ot accept it. She cannot accept the fact that the public institutions in post-secondary education are being challenged for once. Her solution for years was shovel more money at it, let them do what they want, give them academic freedom. She does not ask the universities what plans they have. What consult ation do they do with the communities ? None.

Yet the member stands up and says, my goodness, what are these community colleges doing , you have given them too much freedom; my goodness, you have given an emphasis to the employers and to the wealth creators, the people who we tax the living daylights out of so they can take that wealth and redistribute it. Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, we have a diffe rent philosophy obviously at work, but I dare say we reflect our philosophy by virtue of the decisions that we have made, and we stand by our record. Ms. Friesen: Mr.

Acting Deputy Chairperson, of course , what has happ ened is the public money has been transfe ued increasingly into the bands of one

section of the community, and public education, that which made us equal, that which was equally acce ssible to all, has in fact become controlled and determined by one

section of the economy. That is what I am asking for. Where is the evidence that the other part of the econ omy, the other portion of the community has some opportunity for input into college programs, into diplo ma pr ograms, into the creation of add itional programs? For examp le , should one of the large corporations which is represented on these community colleges say no to a particular proposal for a diplo ma program or an ad ditional part of continuing education? What would be the recourse of the community ? How does the community in fact exert an influence upon those kinds of decisions? (Mr.

Deputy Chailperson in the Chair) Mr. Manness : Mr. Deputy Chairperson, by two ways. They make repr esentation to the board directly or indirectly in the manner which they see fit. Secondly, they make rep resentation to the government of Manitoba. Ultimately, if they are not happy with the action, they have got that ultimate free dom, thank God. They can go to the polls, and they will, and they did, and what they did in the last election in 1990 is, they said once again that they did not want the Liberals or certainly the NDP to govern the ir interests . That is

2658 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May30, 1994 the ultimate expre ssion of individuals in our society who feel that changes that have been made are either in keeping with their philosophy or in some cases are not in keeping. Ms. Friesen: What does the minister see as the role of adult basic education in the community colle ges? Mr. Manness: I mean, lif elong learning obviously has to be prac tised in all of our educational institutions including o ur community coll eges.

I see, there is no doubt in my mind as I look into the next centwy that there will be incredible not only demand but expectation and indeed a call for significant additional adult education training. It fits right in again to the lifelong leaming concept that we all know is coming, and to the extent that colleges have additional resources and can expand their programming in any respe ct and in a timetabling that will be in keeping with adults who are requiring this type of training, it will happe n. Ms. Friesen: I am not sure the minister understood the question.

The question was related to ad ult basic education, that is, the basic liter acy and numeracy programs which until two or three years ago wer e taught by community colleges on location and in the community colleges. There seems to have been a shift in the government 's policy towards ensuring that this is done in high schools or at least by school divisions rather than the community college s. 'lbe govemment at one point, in fact, over a few years has promised a report on this and a review.

We have discussed this in earlier parts of the Estimates, and I want to now look at what the community college role is, will be from the perspective of the government. Is the gove rnment at the point of moving adult basic education away from the community colle ges? *

(2100) Mr. Manness: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, this is a repetitive que stion. I have said that we cann ot go much further in this area until the federal government lays before us the plans as to how they are planning to remake and to reshif t the Unemployment Insurance program and indeed some of the other basic social pr ograms that have been in place for a long-standing period of time . So until the federal government gives us some clarity as to where they are going to be taking these basic programs of support it is going to be very diffi cult to give greater response to the member. Ms.

Friesen: These are Manitobans whom we are talking about. These are Manitobans with specific needs which have not changed over the last 10 years, the same type of people presenting themselves for the same kinds of programs. In the last few years the government has moved these programs back to the high school level. The last minister argued that people should go and talk to their own high school principals or to their school divisions, although in fact I think in at least 30 percent of the divisions in Manitoba there is not provision for those kinds of adult students in the regular cl assroom.

I am asking, does the minis ter have a policy on this? What is he saying to the fe deral government? What are the implications of the actions of the government over the last two years? Has it come to a halt as he waits for some oracle from the new fed eral government to speak, or does he actually have a policy on this ? Where is the best place? Where is the most effective place for the education of those adults in need of basic education? Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, my previous answ er stands . The member, of course, wants solutions to all of the worl d's prob lems.

I know in her perf ect world, of course , that can happen with a snap of another pl ann er; bring in another social en gineer and instantly you have a plan. But this takes great skill, to try to take into account all of our socie ty. Indeed, the member thinks you can house this nea tly in one place and fix all of socie ty's ills, and again, we have said our general model-[inteljection] We have a situation where the member for Wolseley is again getting exercised. I do not know what her problem is tonight . I feel sorry for her, but the reality is she is having great difficulty .

Let me say that with res pect to ad ult-based education, Mr. Deputy Chair, and trying to provide greater opportuni ty, trying to provide greater equivalency , I think that becomes the task of all of us. Indeed, the member of course would like to see

May 30, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2659 it housed in a fonnal institution, and I tell the members of all of the great outreaches in literacy training that are taking place in many of our communities. We spent a long time on this subject in another part of the departmenL We talked about the incredible success stories that are occuring in Manitoba, and that is taking some of the pressure off the comm unity col leges. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Cbaiipe rson, it see ms to me the minister is right; I am increasingly puzzled by his answers which seem to be veering further and further away from the question.

Adult basic education is what we are talking abouL I am asking for the government policy. I am not asking him for it to be lodged in this institution or that institution. I am simply asking, what is the direction of the government in this area? Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, if the member wants the full load, I will give her the full load. ABE programs at community colleges are designed to prepare students for further training at the college. Secondly, Adult Basic Education programs are off ered lea ding to recognized equivalency at the Grades 10, 11 and 12 levels.

Third ly, curriculum content is detennined by consulting instructors in the college program for which the student is preparing . Fourthly, students attending on a full-time basis attend approximately 25 to 30 hours per week. Fifthly , certification is gianted as (1) recorded grade equivalency or (2) correspondence certification or (3) through articulation agreement with a school division. Sixthly, college Adult Basic Education programs are specifically designed to serve the learning needs of adult learners. Now, the member asks what the role of the college is in adult basic education. Well, Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, I am prepared to share six of those items with the member. Firstly, comm unity college Adult Basic Education program is directed primarily at the provision of the academic skills and competencies necessary for admission to commun ity college progra ms. ABE program pr ovides instruction to the Grades 10, 11 and 12 levels consistent with the admission requirements of college pr ograms. Grade 12 level programming is flexible and can accommodate students entering at a Grade 7 equivalent preparation level.

ABE programs are flexible, offering full-time classro om instruction, appr oximately 25 to 30 hours per week, and part-time individual study options . Although ABE programs target students see king admissions to college pr ograms, students can also prepare for admissi on to post-secondary programs at other post-secondary institutions. College ABE programming also includes off -campus training offered on a contract- or madcet-driven basis and as part of integrated college programs which inc01porate ABE training within the cum culum of a college certificate or a diploma program . Mr.

Deputy Chairpers on, you may be interested to know, I know the member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen) would be very inte rested to know this, colleges provide a flexible ad ult-directed ABE program specifically designed to meet the learning needs and styles of adult Manit obans. Mr. Deputy Chairpers on: Order, ple ase. Could I ask the honourable members wanting to carry on their private conversations to do so out in the ball . 1be honourable minister to continue . Mr. Manne ss: Mr. Deputy Chairpers on, colleges experience an ongoing demand for ABE education as preparation for post-seco ndary training programs.

Now, I know the member bas asked a lot of questions about curriculum . I will give her a couple of items on curriculum because she is very inte rested in that as it impacts Worlcforce 2000. Adult Basic Education, No. 1, curriculum is detenn ined primarily by the requirements of college program s; and secondly, curriculum content is determined by consulting instructors in the college program for which the student is preparing. Now I know the member would be keenly interested in knowing about the certification of ABE programs.

They break into three areas, and I know the member would want me to put this on the record: Certification is granted as recorded grade equivalency; or (2) correspondence certification; or (3) through articulation agreement with the school division. Also, recorded grade equivalency is the predominant means of credit recognition.

2660 LEGISLAllVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 1994 Grade equivalency is recognized by Manitoba post-secondary institutions in most cases, Mr. Deputy Cbahperso n, and I have that in bra ckets. Thirdly, I would say to the member, Assini boine Community Coll ege, I ga ther, provides certifications though the Brandon School Division in the subjects English, physics and Math 300, in add ition to recognized grade equivalen cy. Now, Mr. Deputy Chailperson, that is a full, full response .

It certainly indicates that the government has a policy frameworlc around all of its education pro grammin g, and I would expect the member for Wolseley to applaud the actions of the government. An Honourable Member: We want more of that. Mr. Manness: I have got books of it. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chair , now that we have heard the Greek chorus from the other- Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Orde r, please. You know the decorum is starting to lack in here a little bit- just starting. You know I have been allowing a little bit of leeway, but I think we are going to have to harness you in a little bit.

The honourable member for Wolseley would like to ask some questions, and I would like to have just a little bit of quiet, please. The honourable member for Wolseley to continue . Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chair, I would like to thank the minister for reading so much into the record. Perhaps what it shows more than anything is that the revolving door of the Department of Education has swung yet again because that sounded like more than anything , I think , the last Minister of Education who could only read written material into the record.

I had hoped for more from this minister, and I had hoped for a discussion of his Adult Basic Education policy , but I gather that is not to be the case . Could the minister indicate how the colleges are fulfilling the area of tourism in the government 's economic strategies? Mr. Mann ess: Well, Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, within the setting of the Assini boine Community College , they have a course, a program of study in the hospitality tourism administra tion area That is in keeping with the focu s on tourism, and I am led to believe that Red River Community College also has a tourism marketing and management program of study, too, obviously in keeping with the tourism target area . • (2110 ) Ms. Friesen: When the minister says course, does he mean a single course, or is that a program with a diploma attached? Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, ACC has a diploma program offe ring. Ms.

Friesen: How many graduates are there from that each yeatl Mr. Manness: I cann ot answer that, Mr. Deputy Chairperson. The member will have to contact the colle ge, and I am sure they will be able to provide that inf ormation for you. Ms. Friesen: How does the college connect with the tourism indusuy in Manitoba? Since that is the one diploma program for the province , what industry-wi de strate gies and connections are there? Mr. Manne ss: Through the Manitoba Tourism Education Council. Ms. Friesen: How are those connections made?

Are any representatives from that council on any of the boards of the community college, in this case , presumably Assiniboine Community College? Mr. Mann ess: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I can remember Mr. Hoover was a board member of Assiniboine Community College up to a short period of time. Whether there are other directors at this point or board governors at this point in time, I cannot say with certainty.

Another good partnership in place , Human Resources department of the federal government in con jun ction with-as I was saying, this partnership that draws fu nds from the Human Resources development department of the fe deral government, Workforce 2000 and also the Manitoba Tourism Education Council, they all work together to make sure that the program is in place , is in keeping with the needs, the tourism and -

May30, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2661 hospitality needs, in support of our provin ce' s econ omy. Ms. Friesen: I w as not quite clear how the minister was expre ssing how those links are made, and I do not see, by the way, on the present make up of the board of Assiniboine Commu nity College or any of the other colle ges, any representative of the tourism industry. I am raising this because this is one of the six strategies that the minister is concerned about. 'lbere is one diploma program of we-do-not-know how-many graduates per year.

If this is one of the dire ctions the government is going, one would expect to have a little more direct representation on the boards, and pelhaps a broader representation in say at least two of the colle ges, of the tourism industry. Mr. Mann ess: Mr. Deputy ChairpeiSon. I have got greater respect for the mentality of the member for Wolseley than that. Obviously many of those people who are studying management courses , business management co urses , they very well may find, and I would expect a large number of them would find , their way into the tourism industry.

The member tries to make it sound as if the tourism industry receives its only people , its people who practise on a daily basis, from those who graduate from a tourism management course . That is nonsense. 'lbey come from all walks of life, so I do not know what point it is the member is trying to make. Ms. Friesen: Well, I am trying to take the minister's direction of the six economic strategies of the government. I am looking for the ways in which the educational institutions of the province are being oriented in that direction.

Yes, I am sure the minister is right that people from some of the management courses will find their way into tourism with or without an educa tional background in tourism.

What I am loo king for is that connection between the economic strategies and the educational directions of the province , and I am saying I am smprised, given that that is one of the six, that there per haps is not a greater representation on the boards of the colleges or peihaps a broader representation in dipl omas and courses across the colleges, particularly pelhaps at Red River where the particular relationship is to the Winni peg region. where at the moment, the broader sector of the tourism industry finds itself. Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Chairpers on. what is the member sa ying?

Is she saying for sure that she knows that Mr. Ron Tate, for instan ce, from Thompson, who is in industry and training, might not be able to reflect on the needs within the tourism industr y? The member is passing judgment I have a listing here, and we have these types of category settings. We have busin ess, we have education, we have teacher, municipal. I would think anyone of those three might be able to bring special skills with respect to the tourism industry and reflect upon decisions that have to be made . What a foolhardy statement by the member for Wolsele y. Mr. Deputy Chairpers on.

I would think many of our board app oin tees to a number of colle ges bring with them a wide spectrum of background and knowledge, and that is why they have been put there. 'lbey are not put there as political hacks . 'lbey are put there in keeping with the wide array of skills they bring, and I would think the member reflects negatively on these people when she asks the question in the fashio n she does. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chairperson. that was totally unnecess ary. It was the minister who raised the issue of political hacks. I have never suggested that about any single member of any board.

My very first question in this line of questioning is, what was the re presentation of the tourism industry on those boards? 1be minister had every opportunity to put on the record the reflection of the tourism industry acros s a broad sector, whether it was of bu siness or whether it was specifically of some aspect of the tourism. So it is really unc all ed for for him to come with those kinds of unnecessary and unpleasant comments at the end when I had asked him that very question at the beginnin g.

Again, pursuing the connection between the economic strate gies of the government and the educational directions of the government , if we are

2662 LEGISLA1lVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May30, 1994 to assume that Assiniboine Community College and, to a lesser extent, Red River Community College are taking the tourism fo cus of the government 's economic strate gies, could the minister indicate where he anticipates that the univetsities should be going in tourism? If we are having the educational institutions moving in parall el with the economic strategies, what should be the role of the univeiSities in the development of tourism? Mr. Manness : Mr.

Deputy Chairpe rson, obviously, as it is one of the ma jor strategic industry initiatives, any calling to arms of all of the playeiS within this industry will be done so by Industry, Trade and Tourism. I understand that that will be done in a public forum setting sometime in the next month and a half . The member has tried to generate a little heat with respect to what representation you had from the tourism industry and the board.

I have to point out, as I said earlier, one of the first statements the member might not know who Ray Hoover is or was, but from recollection, Ray Hoover was the head of TIAM, which is the Tourism Association of Manitoba. That was the direct connection. He has le ft just recently, over the last few months, and it is up to us now to try and fill in one of our vacancies on the board with that type of individu al. So, Mr. Deputy <llai!pe iSoo, I said that in the very fitst answer. I guess I assumed that the member knew who Ray Hoover was. I guess I assumed too much. •

(2120) Ms. Friesen: I wa s pointing out that the government had not replaced Mr. Hoover with anybody related to the tourism indus try. So equally we each had a point, and I do not think again it is necessary for the minister to introduce those kinds of comments. I in fact had no intention to generate controversy over this area or to generate heat My goal was to try and undetstand what the link was between the ec onomic strat egies of the government and the educational strategies .of the government. I realize it is getting late.

I realize the minister spent a long time here , but it is not necessary to deal with questions in that way. Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Chailpetson, I do not know what the member says, getting late . I believe we have considerable time left yet, and I do not know what she means when she says it is getting late. The member may be tired; I am certainly not. Ms. Friesen: If the minister wants to deal in these kinds of issu es, it is not necessary and I do not think particul arly helpful to furthering the public discussion or debate.

I wanted to ask the minister about the Six Thinking Hats program at Red River Community College and if he could give us an indication of what the results have bee n. Mr. Mann ess: Mr. Deputy Chai.rpetson, I have answered this question in another

section dealing with Workforce 2000. It was a joint agree ment, as the member said. I understand the emphasis was on lateral thinking and it reached out and brought �m ember knows better than me. She likes to have fun in this. She lays on the record how serious this is and all that, and here she sits here laughing her head off because she thinks she has got a real juicy issue. So, you know, she contradicts hetself from question to question. For the re cord, she admits she is chuclding to hetself. It is getting late for the member, and I fe el sorry for her. We better be careful bow long we go.

But this was done for boards and management It was Edward de Bono 's lateral thinking coutse. Ms. Friesen: We ll, the minister keeps referencing the late hour and I think wants to put on the record something about his own macho propen sities for late boUIS. My ref erence to late bouts was in fact late in the length of the amount of time we have spent in Estim ates . It was not of a particular hands on the clock, and yes, I do chuckle a little bit at Six Thinking Hats. It is something of an amusing title, and yes, the minister has told me before what he believes that coutse to have been.

What I asked this time on the colle ges line is what he thinks the value to the colleges has been and what the implications have been for college programs or for college faculty and administration of such a COUISe. Mr. Manness : Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the member is asking me to speculate on what the

May30, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2663 colleges think. I think she is well advised to pick up the phone someday and ask the colleges what they think of this course. Ms. Friesen: Could the minister teD us what be considers-no, let me phrase it another way. The labour fo rce development strate gy that is being done in Se lkiik with W orldorce 2000 money and fe deral money , bow will that connect into the regional mandate of, I assume, Red River Comm unity College? Mr. Maoness: I cannot answ er that question. I will try to find out more inf onuation, but I cannot answer that question. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Item 6.(

b) Comm unity Colleges

(1) Colleges Secretariat (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $214,2 00-p ass; (

b) Other Expenditures $41,900--pass. 6.(b)

(2) Grants $40,510, 600--pass. Resolution 16.6 RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $256,535, 000 for Education and Training, Support to Post-Secondary Institutions for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 1995. We will now move on to 16.7, which is Capital Appropriati ons, 7. Expenditures Related to Capital (

a) School Divisions $24,501 ,600. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, get some Contac-C for the member. I would like to get on with the Estimates here , Mr. Deputy Chairperson, once the committee settles down and we get the new staff in here . One of the questions that I would like to ask the minister is whether be could table the capital plan, if there is one, and if be does not mind me using that term. I know be bas an aversion to anything called a plan; be likes the idea of a blueprint.

So maybe be bas a capital blueprint be would like to table for us insofar as the plans-oo psl -insofar as the capital pro jects that may be under construction in this potential election year. Mr. Maoness : Mr. Deputy Chairperson, it bas not been the tradition of this department to table a plan because no plan ex ists. Mr. Plohman: I would think that the minister is very traditional in many of the things he does now , except be bas indicated on various occasions throughout these Estimates that be would like to be a bit innovative.

He is going to go so far as to have a refonu blueprint, and whether there bas actu ally been a tabled capital plan over the last couple of years or not, I think that is one of the things that the Legislature needs . We have tradition ally a road construction list, not necessarily a plan. Now, we do not have that yet The Minister of Highways [interjection] Mr. Deputy Chairperso n: Order, please. The Department of Highways is coming up in the House in the next few days, and I would appreciate if you want to discuss bridges and highways, we do it at that time.

The honourable member for Dauphin bas the floor at this time, and I am having trouble bearing him. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Deputy Chairpers on, speaking of bridges and highways, I was just going to say that the Minister of Highways is now tabling or is now- An Honourable Member: We ll, now, make up your mind, John. Mr. Plohman: -giving news releases, issuing news releases, on various parts of the capital program, but no capital program bas been tabled with the Le gislature. This is a departure .

So I would like to see the minister provide an overall list, if be does not want to call it a plan, an ove rall list of all of the capital pro jects that his government intends to carry out to spend the $24,501 ,000 in the 1994-95 year on capital. The Legislature bas a right to know that; we expect that We want to see what the government is doing with the taxpayers' money insofar as $24 million. It is a lot of money, and we want to know where it is goin g. Mr. Maoness : Mr. Deputy Chairperson, all the member bas to do is refer to page 135. It shows in five breakouts exactly where all the money is going.

I will read for the member, in case the member is having diffi culty reading. I would point out that $1 4.7 million goes to inter est. Now, interest represents the cost of borrowing money on schools that have been built in the past, and so this is the principal portion of

2664 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 1994 providing expenditures in the past. As a matter of fa ct, a significant portion of this is probably on schools built by the NDP in their time. So $14 .7 million is the capital portion of the amortization

schedule ass ociated with paying that money. Buses: $3.27 million goes in support of buses . Now certainly, Mr. Deputy Olaiipe rson- An Honourable Member: How many? •

(2130) Mr. Manness : Well, we can try to find out how many buses there were in the 1994-95 year; $4.7 million goes into minor capital pro jects and environmental-Mr. Deputy Chairperson , in 1994-95, we anticipate 95 to 100 school buses will be replaced. Now, the member asks about minor capital pro jects. We will try to give him some further infonn ation with respect to that. As be can see, the fi nal two areas are Environmental Assis tance and Vocationa l Equipment So the inf onnation is all for the member, right in front of him, and all he bas to do is refer to page 135. Mr.

Plohman: If the minister thinks that is all of the infonn ation the members at the Legislature require, then be is, to put it nicely, sadly mistaken. I would think that we could expect more from this minister and that be would realize that couched within those categories of $4 million for Minor Capital Projects and $3 million for Buses, that there would be some more detail that would be helpf ul for memb ers of the Legis la ture in determining whether the government 's priorities are such that we could find any support for them.

I think insofar as the Buses are concerned, we are not asking a lot of infonnation of the minister here in terms of pro jec ts that he might be undertaking. We are asking a few questions insofar as the breakdown of this $24 mill ion. The Debt Servic ing-! mean, we could ask for all of the schools that fall under this and that are covered under the Debt Servicing. I am not asking for that right now. What I am asking for is inf onnation on new pro jects that they are being undertaken. Are we to assume from this that there are no new schools being built, or is that under Debt Servicing, and if so, which are they.

Insofar as the Buses, 95 to 100, well, let us look at bow many have been replaced over each of the last five years, and let us take a look whether the minister is doing as much in replacement as be bas or bas been traditional. We know that the minister has pushed back the replacement dates for buses. It used to be 12 years and was pushed back to 13 years, and then 14 years, and so on. The member for Roblin-Rossell (Mr. Der.kach ), when be was Minister of Education, was well aware of that because be started the process of delaying replacement of buses. Then we have insofar as Minor Capital Projects the

section $4,729,000, a lot of minor pro jects there. So what I want from the minister is some detail on this. I wish be would not attempt to insult the members by saying, well, it is all there, look at page 135, the member will find everything he wants. Well, I am sorry, the minister should know better than that. Mr. Mann ess: Mr. Deputy Chairpers on, I think the member bas got me. He bas got me, there is no doubt. I wa s remiss and I apologize to the committee. School buildings supp ort, category (d), Minor Capital Projects, fonn ula driven, fo r what pwpose is it?

Well, generally, to address structural problems in schools . The work undertaken under this program involves correction to fai ling structural components of school buildin gs. Typical pro jects include the fo llowing: foundation upgradin g, including und erpinning ; upgrading roof structu ral members; correcting glue laminated beam deficiencies . The member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman) could relate to a lot of those items. Secondly, paying out proj e cts with a value of less than $20,000-- now, the member wants the detail, and as I say, this is form ula driven.

Winni peg School Division No. 1, of the $4.4 million bas by fo rmula-it is an allocation. Wmnipeg School Division, their share by way of allocation is $767,542. St. James Assiniboia is $235,614, and on and on and on. -

May30, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2665 I know the member for Dauphin would love to know that Dauphin- Ochre 33 will have allocated $61,575. Mr. Deputy Cbairpers on, if you add up the 56 divisions and districts, and one comes to a total of $4.4 million, the amount printed. Mr. Plohman: First of all, the minister is now catching on a bit, and we can go a little further on thaL Now, in so far as the ma jor capit al, can the minister tell us what is being allocated under major capital for this coming year, and the amount of money for debt servicing by pro ject and by division.

If be could, be could just table that 1isL We do not need him to go into a long dissertation of reading to prove that be can read at a Grade 8 level or a Grade 12 level, or whatever it might be. That is not the point here . What we want is to have the list tabled so that we can look at it at our leisure to determine the priorities of the governm ent We also would like to see the pro jects, the minor capital projects that have been allocated. Is it just in dollars by fo rmula? Is it by need? Has this form ula changed?

Is it the same as has been traditional over the last 10 years, or has there been a change in the fo rmula for allocating minor capital? Those are the questions I would like to pose to the minister right now. The major capital right now I think is very important, and the minister should attempt to table the ma jor capital pro jects that are being undertaken. Mr.

Mann ess: Well, the member knows fully well that any inf ormation I impart as to what letters have gone out to school divisions indicating that their ma jor project had been considered as capital plan has no impact on the '94-95 budgeL This is all borrowed money with no impact again on the '94-95 budget. I have sent out some letters to divisions indicating there is an expectation that we will enter into final discussions with respect to some fa cility within their school division. Those are part of the public record in the sense that I have sent those letters out to those school divisions.

I will give examples of them because I am in no position to lay out the full plan. I mean, this is an allocation of global funding that has no impact whatsoever on the '94-95 budget. It is notional only. The Treasury Board of the day goes through every one of these pro jects one by one, and the Minister of Finance is put on a global budget over which the Treasury Board and department cannot exceed. The member should know that a letter has gone out to SL Vital with respect to a new K to 6 school, Ashworth, which, when it proceeds, will have an estimated cost of $2.5 million. Now, that is not a new issue.

I think Ashworth was discussed in some context a year ago. So this letter has gone ouL Mr. Plohman: It is nice that the minister has chosen one example from St. Vital to illustrate or to answer the questions that he fe els may be forth coming. What I would like to see then if the minister could provide a list of gov ernm ent intent and decisions made by this minister. It is not a Treasury Board decision. The minister says they could overrule him.

If he sends a letter saying that he intends to proceed further to construction for a school to seek Treas ury Board approval, I assum e that this is what the letters are saying or what precisely are the letters saying that he is sending out? What kind of information is he providing to the school divisions? I am sure be would not say that he intends to seek Treasury Board approv al because then, in fac t, it puts the onus on Treasury Board to be blamed if, in fact, it is not proceeded with, and that is an unfair kind of conn otation to put on Treasury Board. •

(2140) Mr. Manness: I will read out the letter that goes when an award or a final decision is made . Here is a letter dated-[interjection] We ll, I will talk about, when I say final , and when I say final, it is a selected point. Whether or not ultimately the final go is put into place to begin to pour concrete , that is still another decision. I wrote, as of May 13, to Mrs. Marilyn Seguire [phonetic] , chair of the board of the St. Vital School Division No. 6, 900 St. Mary's Road.

2666 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May30, 1994 "Dear Mrs. Seguire [phoneti c]: Re: The New Ecole Ashworth School. On August 21, '92, your school division was granted authority to design a new Ecole Ashworth School. That authority was contingent upon f onnal app roval being granted at such time that the necessary capital funding bad been provided. Upon the recommendation of the Public Schools Fmance Bo ard, I am pleased to infonn you that the pro ject is thereby fo nnally app roved.

This approval is sub ject to the teDJls and conditions of the award as outlined in the document and guidelines provided with the granting of the design authority. I wish your division well in the successful completion of the pro ject." Mr. Deputy Chaiipe rson, that is an awards letter, still condition al, semiconditional on some things happen ing, but saying that there is money that bas now been allocated, that Treasury Board bas now, in the sense that the final conditions are all met, we will have money in place to proceed with the building of this school. I will not provide the total list of those.

I will not because, of course , there may be some other conditi ons. All of these projects are along various stages , and to provide a whole list and to have them made public is, in essence, saying to the community, well, for sure you have got your school. Well, that is not the case; that is not the case, and I will not put myself in the position or put the government in that position. That is why these are taken throughout the year.

Some of them will fall-some of them you expect the building to occur in this year, it does not happen because of some planning irregularity, some other difficulty that arises and it finds itself moving into a year hence. That is the process that bas been in place for many years, long before this government came into place, and that is the process that we continue to fo llow. Mr.

Plohman: Well, I want to assure the minister that by tabling the list of the letters that be sent out and the essence of what bas been app roved in those letters will not be saying, you got your school, any more definitively than those letters themsel ves. They are all sub ject to the same conditions . We understand that.

We can assure the minister that be is not going to be making any further decisions than be already bas made by providing this infonn ation to this committe e, simply providing a list of those that have bad the letters and the substance of those letters, sub ject, of course, to all of the conditions contained in those letters . Nothing bas changed So why can the minister not do that? Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Chairpe rson, the member is right, nothing bas changed. I am following the same policy that bas been in place, inherited from the NDP government. Mr.

Plohman: So I can assure the minister that be would not be sa ying by providing that list to this committee that there would be anything more definite as to these pro jects going ahead, that we would be saying, in his words, you got your school, just simply because be tabled this list before the Legislative committee. That is not what we are attempting to do here in forcing the minist er's band. We are not forcing him to make a commitment that is irrevocable any more than the commitment be bas already made. We just want to have the list of pro jects that the minister intends to bring forward to Treasury Board.

Now, if be cann ot do that, I think be can at least provide a list of all of the appro vals that did go forward to Treasury Board and, theref ore, are final for '93-94. That money is being spent in this $14,714, 000; we have a right to know what that is. Mr. Mann ess: The member is dead wrong on that. The presentation that may be made to Treasury Board bas absolutely nothing to do with the $14.7 million. There will not be a dollar impact on the '94-95 budget with respect to the major capital decisions that are made by this government . Mr. Plohman: I wish the minister's mind would not wander.

I was talking about '93-94 approv als. Now be ref erenced '94-95 again. I bad asked for a list of those intended for '94-95, the minister says, well, I cannot give those. So I am saying, ok ay, if you do not want to give us this year 's, give us last -

May30, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2667 year's app rovals, final app rovals through Treasury Board. Mr. Mann ess: W e will attempt to provide what not only we com mitted to but actually did in '93-94, be cause that does have some bearing on the $14 million. We will try and provide that inf ormation, because that is done throughout the provi nce. Mr. Plohman: I want to leave on the reconl that we believe the minister bas an obligation to provide to this committee the government 's intentions for the coming year as well.

Just Hke the Highways prog ram , when the Mini ster o f Highways tables that program in the Legislature , if he ever will this year, it is still subject to Treasury Boa rd approval . When those pro jec ts are ann ounced, it is no t final in that there is no further decisions. Oearly, the Treasury Bo ard bas to make the final decisions, but that intent is there and it doe s not burt the government to do it It ann ounces the intent, the plan. That is what I am asking the minister to do here in Education with the capital program. Mr.

Manness: As the member is fully aware, be tries to draw the parallel, but all of the expenditures within the area of Highways are all current account expenditu res. They are treated completely differe ntly , in an accounting sense , than major capital in the public schools. Mr. Plobman: W ell, the minister should be aware that that is not quite true. There are a lot more approvals made than there is money to spend in any given year. The pro jects are anno unced eve n though they will not all be done in that particular year. It is the government 's intent on the Highways program . Mr.

Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. I am really having an awful bani time listening here . Could I ask the honourable members to just tone it down two or three octav es. Mr. Manness: The member is talking abou t process. He is not talking about accounting proc edures. They are two di ffe rent thin gs, Mr. Deputy Chairper son. I know there are mo re Highways pro jects listed than there is money to do . That is not the difference here. 1be difference here is purely to do with current accounting versus putting into place amortization

schedule s, as is the case with major capital under the Public Schools Finance Board. Mr. Plobman: The minister does not have to remind me that these proj ects are not paid for in the curre nt year, they are amortized, I realize that That should not make any difference insofar as the reporting. It is the responsibility of the minister to reveal what his plans are as minister and what the government 's plans are, especially since be has already done the PR job of getting the letter out saying your pro ject bas been app roved.

A compilation of those letters and pro jects should quite easily and properly be laid before this co mmittee . If it bas not been asked before, that is not my fau lt. It is something we are asking for and it is a legitimate request. Mr. Manness : Well, ma ybe it is the only one that has been decided at this point in time. So the member will have to be-l mean, we are at this point in time when we are making these decisions . I do not have an awful lo t to provide in additional inf ormation. •

(2150) Mr. Plobman: Well, then, the minister bas given a commitment to provide last year's. Let us move on to the buses . I bad a question there I raised with the minis ter earlier; 95 to 100 school buses, is this a typical number? Has there been lesser amounts spent in this area for replacement of buses this year? Has it been steadil y declining over the last fo ur, five years? If so, can the minister provide some inf ormation on the amount spent on school bus repl acem ent and also a listing of where these buses have been allocated, to which school divisions? Mr. Manness: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, the total spent, from two so urces , the amount that we are ad dressing here by way of budget plus the amount that comes from education supp ort levy, the part that is off the record or off the balance sheet, the sum total of those two are as is exactly the same as last year.

2668 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May30, 1994 Mr. Plohmaa: The minister is not very forthc oming. Could be go back? H be does not have it right in front of him, provide us with a listing of the repl acement policy for school buses and the amounts allocated over the last six ye ars. Mr. Manness: Yes, we will endeavour to try and provide that historic inf orm ation. Mr. Plohman: Does the minister have a listing of where these buses were allocated for this year! Mr. Manness: That would have been within the support to public schools. I do not have that with me, but I will try to find that out too. Mr.

Plohman: Can the minister provide any detail on the minor capital pro jects, other than the amount per division? Can be give a detail as to which projects got what or anything like that? Mr. Manness: No, this is by fo rmula, and it is what the division can spend up to if it w arrants, if they have pro jects that wmant that expenditure. Mr. Plohman: Does the minister have a request to replace or rebuild, refurbish Gree nway School in W'mnipeg No. 1? Mr.

Manness: The Public Schools Finance Board has now finalized its asse ssment and the process there about Greenway School, and it will be finalizing its recommendation and presenting it to me in the next two weeks . Mr. Plohmaa: So the minister has no policy or preference as to how to proceed with Greenway School, whether it be by replacement or upgrading or refurbishing of the existing fa cility? Mr. Mann ess: Well, n o hard pref ere nce. We left that with the school division for the best part of the year and asked them to make a decision.

I think they finally have and now Public Schools Finance Board is taking that into account in forwarding a recommen dation to me. Mr. Plohmaa: Is it the minister's intent to give fav ourable consideration to this pro ject in this particular school year, keeping in mind that this has been a long- running request, and one that is long oveld ue. Mr. Mann ess: We have set aside , since '92-93, several million dollars in support of this pro ject. Mr. Plohman : We ll, I will pass the questioning over to another member.

I just want to confirm with the minister then that we will get a listing from the minister of the pro jects approved for the '93-94 calendar year for the capital program , major capital pro jects, and as well the destination and allocation of the school buses app roved for the present year! Mr. Manness: Correct. Mr. Plohman: The minister has confirmed those two requests. Thank you, Mr. Deputy Chaitperson. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster) : Mr.

Deputy Chaitperson, I would ask the minister in terms of the process, the school division that wants to be able to get a new school built or ma jor capital expenditures done on their parti cular fa cilitie s, what the actual process is. I understand , for example, that there is a request -and I do not know if it is applicable to all of the school divisions-but to submit five-year capital plans. Mr. Mann ess: The process is as fo llo ws.

Firstly, the proj ect is requested by a school division, and the Public Schools Finance Board pro ject leader conducts the initial assessm ent of re quest and recomme nds, or does not recommend, the pro ject for inclusion in the budget. Two, if recommended fo llowing an assessment, the pro ject then is included in the budget for the Treasury Boald app roval. Following Treasury Boald budget approval, the pro ject leader conducts final assessment of the pro ject and recommen ds to Public Schools Finance Board that ministerial award be pre pared.

Ministerial awald autho rizes school division to hire an architect to prepare plans for approval by the Public Schools Finance Board. Sketch plans are received by a pro ject leader, and a report is submitted to the Public Schools Finance Board approvin g the plans and authorizing the school division to proceed to working drawi ng stage . The school division then submits working drawi ngs, and the pro ject leader prepares a report to the Public Schools Finance Boald for appr oval of plans and authorizing the division to tender pro ject. -

May 30, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2669 1be school division sends tender results to the Public Schools Finance Board for approv aL Public Schools Finance Board authorizes support of lo w bid or form ula support, and then ultim ately we come to the ninth step, the building of a ne w school or add ition begins. Mr. Lamoureux: Is there any requirement to submit five -year capital plans from school divi sions? Mr. Manness: Every year. Mr. Lamoureux: Those five-year capital plans, is that public inf onnation?

For exam ple , if we were wanting to get a copy of Wmni peg 1, in particular, five -year capital plan, can we in fact receive it? Mr. Manne ss: Not from us. It is proprie tary inf ormation that is the ownership of the school division. So if the member wants to obtain it fro m the school division, by all means. Mr. Lamoureux : So if I was to request from the minister if Wm nipeg School Division No. 1 bas requested an addi tional high school or junior high to be built somewhere in the northwest comer of the city, he would not be able to respond to that? Mr.

Manness: No, I would think that that would be inform ation that should be gleaned fro m Wmnipe g School Division No. 1. Mr. Lamoureux : I know I have made reference in the past of the Minister of Education being somewhat selective in tenns of what he classified as privileged inf onn ation, and I do not necessarily want to pursue the whole question of privileged inf ormation, but I do believe that it is, in fac t, somewhat appropri ate to ask the Minister of Education, and so I will ask now. Has there been a request from Winni peg School Division No. 1 to build a post-secondary or junior high school in the area?

Mr. Manness: I cann ot answer that question and I will not answer that question. I do not know why the member wou ld not ask Winni peg School Division No. 1 that question. That is public inf onnation, but it should be released by Winn ipe g School Division No. 1 and not the Province of Manitob a. Mr. Lamoureux: I do not plan to spend too much time on here, but I would like to indicate to the Minister of Education that I have fonnally asked this question in the past of Ministers of Education, and I have fo und that I have received the answ ers.

I find it unfortunate that the curre nt minister uses what he believes is privileged inf onnation, which is actually public inf onnation, and the public does have a right to know. As the member for Dauphin (Mr. Plobman) just pointed out, we do have a right to ask that particular question. Unf ortunately, the curre nt minister does not fee l that he bas the ability to be able to give out that sort of info nnation. I do feel a bit of the frustration that the member for Dauphin (Mr. Plobm an) bas expressed with respect to not being able to receive some of the inf ormation with reference to capital expenditures.

So having said that, I am not going to continue to ask the minister questions on this particular line, so we could go on to the next . •

(2200) Mr. Manness: I will try to review the policy for another year. Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): I happen to represent a commun ity that has been the fa stest-growing town for the last three years runnin g, and that is the town of Stonewall.

Even though we did have an expansion in the elementary school in 1992, with the number of homes being built in the area in the last two years, I think some 70 new houses last year, and a lot of young families moving into that area, I know that the Interlake School Division bas applied to the Public Schools Finance Board for an expansion to their school or for a ne w school and the Public Schools Finance Board bas done an assessment on the area. Have you any indication as to when and what might be fo rthcoming in the capital budget for Stonewall? Mr. Manness: Stonewall? Mr. Helwer: Ye s. Mr.

Manness: Well, we cann ot promise anything at all, but we are ve ry keenly aware of the tremendous increase in student population in the

2670 LEGISLAllVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May30, 1994 Stonewall area. We know we are doing and are going to be doing an assessment of the Bobby Bend Collegiate. So there are certain allocations, and I cann ot share with the member the amount that has been set aside for '94-95 in the event that some solution can be found to the overcrowding problem that obviously exists. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: 7. Expenditures Related to Capital (

a) School Divisions . Mr. Lamoureux: I wonder if the Mini ster of Education can tell me if they are doing an assessment of overpopulation in other areas of the province? Mr. Manness : Most defin itely, yes. We are assessing all areas of the provi nce . Mr. Lamoureux: Can the Minister of Education give us some sort of indication of whether or not there is a need for an addi tional junior high or high school out in the northwestern corner of the city where over the last fe w years we have seen a number of elementary schools built? Does he fo resee that there is going to be a need for a high school orj unior high?

Mr. Manness: We are well aware that there have been a large number of elementary schools built in the northwest quadrant of the city, and obviously where there are many elementary schools built there is going to have to be a place for these students to attend. So we are well aware of the numbers that are building at a seco ndary stage within that district of the city. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: 7. Expenditures Rela ted to Capital (

a) School Divisions $24,501 ,600 -pa ss; 7 .(

b) Universities $1 0, 566,5 00-pass; 7.(

c) Community Colle ges, $2,120, 600--p ass. Resolution 16 .7: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $37,1 88,700 for Education and Training for the fiscal ye ar ending the 31 st day of March, 1995-pass. The last item to be considered for the Estimates of the Department of Education is item l. (a)(l) , the Minister's Salary. At this point we request that the min ister 's staf f leave the table for the consideration of this item. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: The last item to be considered for the Estimates of the Department of Education is item 16.1 l. (

a) the Minister 's Salary. At this point we request that the minister's st aff leave the table for the consideration of this item. 16.1 l. (

a) Minister's Salary $20,600. Shall the item pass? Mr. Lamoure ux: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I would like to get a couple of things on the record before we pass this particular line. First of all, I would like to pursue the blueprint that the minister has talked about, get some sort of indication when we will, in fa ct, be receiving that. He bas indicated in the past that it should be sometime very soon. He has implied in the past that it will be in the month of June.

I would like to get some sort of a confirmation in teimS of when this minister, bow things are going, even over the last week and a half since we have been in Education, when we started to talk about Education Reform . The minister has been very, very strong in implying that we will be receiving it in the month of June. I am wondering if he can give the committee an assurance that nothing is out there that is going to be preventing that report from being tabled this month. Mr. Manness: The target is mine. Again, I want to review the process; the target is mine.

I am trying to make public a d ocum ent by the end of June. If it is available the end of June, I would be overjoyed. Though that is my target, there is no way I would indicate that it will be blessed by all of the partners within Education. Therefore, accordingly, there is a fair amount of work: yet to do. I will be meeting with the partners again tomorrow morning going over another two issues that are very important to that whole pr ocess. I say it will require yet another fo ur or five meetings with those whom I have been meeting with on a constant basis over the course of the last several montm .

Then it will take a little bit of writing, so we have an awful lot of work to do to meet that targe t. -

May30, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2671 Mr. Lamoureux: I believe that there is a significant level of expectation that that report would be coming down sometime in the month of June. The Minister of Education himself is the one that bas been going out and bas made numerous comments to that effect. I think that there will be a considerable amount of disappoin bll ent if, in fact, the minister chooses to wait mltil after June, and that is what I belie ve. That is what I sincerely believe will be the case, that if it is unable to come down, that the minister bas chosen to wait.

The other report that the minister bas made reference to is the one dealing with ACCESS, and again I would ask the same question of the Minister of Education. Will be be tabling that report in June? Mr. Mann ess: I fully expect to be tabling that report in June, but the member uses his words incorrectly when be says I may choose not to have the other one ready. I am doing everything I can. Indeed, other partners would tell the member this, to try and have it ready. So the member may speculate that I am trying to withhold the refonn blueprint, but nothing could be further from the truth.

I want it out more so than any member of the Liberal Party. Mr. Lamoureux : I am not entirely convinced that that is, in fact, the case. I bad the oppo rtunity to get a copy of Hansard. The one afternoon or evening, whenever it was when we bad moved a motion that Education be deferred until after ACCESS, and the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) remembers. We all remember that one.

I guess I was somewhat disap pointed in terms of bow it turned out I still believe that bad Education been able to be postponed until after the ACCESS report was tabled that, in fact, we could have asked a number of add itional questions and bad a better level of debate on that particular issue. I would also argue that there would likely have been a better opportunity to talk about Education Refonn . I believe even in the minister 's opening remarks that be made reference to to that.

I did want to stress that this being the first time that I have gone through the Education Estimates that I myself have learned something from it and do very much app reciate the opportunity to be able to sit and listen in on Education and ask questions. Hopefully, next year, whatever end of the table it might be at, one will be able to continue the discussions on Education, and that is not necessarily to say that we would even be in the room, anyone would necessarily be in the room. •

(2210) Mr. Deputy Chairpe rson, I have en joyed the Education Estimates and would thank you for patience. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Shall the item pass? Mr. Plobman: Mr. Deputy Chairpers on, just briefly, we have said most of the things that we want to say to the minister and asked him the questions that we wanted to ask within the time that we bad. My colleagues and I have raised con cerns about inequitable funding for the public school system .

We fe el the minister bas been unfair in his treatment of divisions like Transcona- Springfield, Lord Selkirk School Division, Mystery Lake School Division in Thompson, certainly Eve rgreen School Division, that have been bard bit as a result of the minister's and the government 's unilaterally imposed decisions to cap school divisions, and at the same cutting the funding to those school divisions in a very significant way over the last two years.

Some of them caught in this web as a result of two consecutive cuts are operating at pre- 1990 funding levels insof ar as the public school is concerned, while other schools have received continuous increases from the minister, even during this period at higher than inflation. It is an inequitable funding mecha nis m, as it bas manifested itself over the last couple of years as a result of the minist er's artificially imposed caps and funding cuts.

Therefore, it bas been unfair for many, and we have raised this with the minister, not in tenns of the dollars necessarily, but certainly, and we do question the min ister 's and the government 's priorities with regard to public schools in this province in tenns of priorities with regard to all

2672 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May30, 1994 other expenditures in government, but we do question even more seriously its commibnent to f airness amongst divisions across this province. We do not want the minister either to impose a privatized version of the public school system. We are waiting for the reports, the blueprint that the minister talks about on the public school system . He has created a great of deal of expectation about what is in it. I am sure he will not disappoint people when he finally brings it fo rward.

He has a great deal of pressure on him to bring forward a balanced d ocum ent, and I hope that he will not fo rget his responsibilities to all who are impacted by the public education system, least of all the cbildren. We do not want him to put in place in the public school system a privatized version, as I said, that would see corporations taking charge , as the Fraser Institute would have, or a voucher system. We would see schools competing against each other for students in a way that would be harmful and destructive.

We hope that the minister will have thrown out those kinds of Conservative versions of reform to the public school system, and the business influence in that way ensures that the public school system is there for all of the students in the province, for everyone throughout the prov ince. We are deeply concerned about the minister's directions in the kinds of things that he is liable to adopt.

We hope that his talks with various partners in education and some of the advice he received at this table will assist him in ensuring that he tries to reflect the views of all Manitobans in a balanced way when he brings that fo rward. That is what we are calling on the minister to do. We hope that we will see that document so that there is some direction, that the people of Manitoba will have an idea where this govermnent intends to go, so that they can judge that document when they have an opportunity to do so in the next election.

I guess it is too much to expect that the minister will , in any way, try to redress the inequities that have taken place that we have seen in the public school system as a result of his decisions as Minister of Finance and then again as Minister of Education. H he does have an opportunity to bring down or to announce one additional year of funding levels for the public school system in this provi nce, we hope that it will reflect some de gree of equity that was not present over the last two years.

Surely the min ister does not want to go further in the direction he has gone over the last couple of years in terms of the harm that it has thrust upon the public school system in this provin ce, especially in some school divisions where they have seen his cuts two years in a row. We ask the minister to provide equitable and positive support to the public school system in the years ahead, ifhe has that opportunity. We hope he does not have that opportuni ty. Of c ourse , as the member for Inkster (Mr.

Lamoureux) said, he will be perhaps not talking to this minister next time that he has the opp ortunity to sit in Estimates, and we hope that, of course , the New Democrats will have an opportunity to once again influence education in a positive way after the next election and to undo some of the mess created by these Co nservatives. Mr. Deputy Chairperson, we are not going to move to reduce the Minister's Salary to 50 cents or a dollar or perhaps some other modest figure.

We think the minister should have voluntarily taken that cut to make a contribution from his ministerial salary to show that he, in fact, is willing to make a sacrifice to assist the school system in this province as a result of his cuts. Since he has not done that, we will leave that with his conscien ce. Ms. Friesen: I would just like to take a few minutes to sum up some of the issues we have dealt with in post-secondary education and to remind the minister of some of the principles that have indeed divided us and continue to divide us.

The first of these, I think, is what seems to be a general drift in the post-s econ dary area. The government, for the fi rst three years of its incumbency, talked of having a university review. Eventuall y, two years after they had announced it, they appointed a particular type of university review committee which gave them a market-driven type of analysis of post-seco ndary education and one which, in -

May 30, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2673 particular, dealt with the language of competition, the language of the matket and seems, in my view, to have lost track of the language of leaming and of scholarship. I fo und nothing in the minist er's answers, although I gave him a number of opportuni ties to do so, which would give me some comf ort that there is a sense of the internati onal and research role of universities. The general drift , I think , continues in other areas. The absence after six years now of a labour force development strategy I think is very significant .

It is one I have raised with every Minister of Education, and we have seen a number in the course of this gove rnment's incumbency. The labour force development strategy was some thing which even the Tory fe deral government bad made some movements towards , although Manitoba bad been one of the least enthusiastic about such a move, in spite of the fact its own ST AC report, as it calls it, the Mauro report, I think, as it could also be calle d, bad recommended a labour force development strategy for Manitoba.

After six years, we do not have one, and we now have a minister who claims that this is all part of the grand design, and now it is inappropriate to bring fo rward a labour fo rce development strate gy because, of course, the fed eral government might have some ideas of its own.

Stemming from that labour force development strategy in the STAC report were the plans for community planning committ ees, which were a sensible step, at least in theory, but it is not something which this government is able to take any advantage of, because it has not got the basic strategies in place that would enable that to have some use. •

(2220) In the area of adult basic education, I gave the minister a number of opportunities on two diff erent lines to talk about any plans that the government might have for the future direction of adult basic education.

I meant this in the context of where adults learn best, what the role of the community should be in this, what the role of our public institutions should be, and again, in spite of having promised over a number of years to have a policy in place on adult basic education, the minister seems singularly unable or un willing to put anything on the record at this stage of his ministry on a policy of adult basic education.

Again, referring to possible plans that the new federal government might possibly have for adult basic education and, hence, not the app ropriate time to come fo rward with those kinds of promised plans . In the area of ACCESS, we bad anticipated a report, indeed asked for it fo rmally by a process of access to freedom of inf ormation. The absence of that report on ACCESS I think has dogged our path thro ughout these Estimate s. It would have been useful for the minister to have shared that inf ormation with us and, I think, probably to his benefit and to the benef it of the process of Estimates gene rall y.

So, again, another area where there might have been some idea of the general approach of the government, but no evidence fo rthcoming in this area.

I think finally the research policies that I asked the minister to discuss to give some idea of where the government believes that research should be going and bow it intends those links to be made across the industrial strategies of the government and the rese arch policies of universitie s and community colleges, indeed, and of private industry, and yet the minister seemed extremely reluctant to put any general policies or plans for those linkages to be made on the record at this time , in spite of the fact that the Roblin com missi on bad commissioned a particular report on that and one might have anticipated that the government bad been thinking of some research policies and connections and articulations resulting from that.

So that general drift , I think, was quite evident and the reluctance to indicate any kind of plannin g, indeed, a mockery of the term on the part of this minister, which certainly surprised me. Two or three other areas I think divided us throughout the Estimat es. One, of course , was ACCESS education, and we have fundament ally

2674 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May30, 1994 oppo sed the cuts that the minister bas made. We have opp osed them because the minister bas not supp lied us with the inf onnation that he had at his disposal, first of all, and secondly , because I think the way in which the cuts have been imposed have and will, if the minister remains committed to that policy, brought inequities into the program and will create hardships and, indeed, the elimination of some students from that program.

It is something I ttied to explain to the minister over and over again, sometimes in the words of the stud ents, sometimes in my own words, trying to indicate to him that what he had done, and a previous minister had done, had in fact made the federal govermnent the gatekeepers of a distinctive provincial progr am, that the legislation or the requirements now for coming into ACCESS, if you are not band funded, are those of the federal program. That does not lead to the kind of ACCESS program that we had in Manitoba. It was a program that was both nationally and internationally known.

It was one that fill ed a very important need in the educational future of Manitoba and one I think which most Manitobans were very proud of. We believe that that need still exists and we believe that there is a need for a Manitoba program to continue in that area. We reject I think the argument of the minister that all Manitobans are equal in this.

They are clearly not The ACCESS programs I think have shown, however, that it is possible to redistti bute some of that equality and some of that access to the post-secon dary education, which increasingly is vital to both the aboriginal community and to individuals in the kind of global economy that bas being created in the recent past. A third area that we differed over, of course, was Workforce 2000, and in spite of the minister's attempts to suggest that our party is opposed to work-based education, that is not the case.

Our oppo sition bas been based upon two areas, and that is the accountability of this particular pro gram. I have emphasized over and over again through questioning on individual cases, through receiving answers from the minister, such as he is only prepared to give me 10 answ ers per week at the rate of which over five years we might have an indication of what this Workforce 2000 program bas indeed done over the past three ye ars.

We have asked for the ann ual report that the Auditor has also asked for, and if that ann ual report had been available we might have in fact accepted some level of account ability on the part of the govemment for Wolkforce 2000 : So the issue of accountability, particularly in curriculum, in teaching levels and in access to those public education dollars, which in fact have been transf erre d to the employer and to the workplace, are things that we still hold very important and very dear and, I think, would still continue to ask the minister for that kind of account ability.

In the colle ges, as the minister has admitted, they were by design, I think he said: By design the colleges were shrunk , the colleges were reduced, the programs were redu ced by design of this government. That is not something that other Ministers of Education have admitted. They tended to surround their decision and their reductions with all sorts of flowery language of commitment and function and governance and independence, but this minister is very clear that by design those colleges were reduced some years ago, and of course they were.

The 3.3 percent increase that bas been app lied to colleges in this year of course must be seen in that context. What we have, in fa ct, and what Roblin responded to very cle arly, was a somewhat smaller college sector than in fact we had three to four years ago. He indicated that we move to a doubling of college place s, that is, from the 900 college graduates in the two-year diploma pr ograms, that is from 950 this year to 1, 800, and I think he put on it a goal of five years. I did not get the sense from this minister that that was his particular agenda.

What we are into I think in community colleges , as we are in Workforce 2000, is shor t-term plannin g. Again, that is an area that gives me some concern. Yes, there are short-teim courses which are needed; yes, there are wor k-based courses which are needed; yes, there is a greater flexibility -

May30, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2675 in some areas of education which is needed, but government itself must be responsible for the lon ger-term pla nning in education and for education do llars. It must be aware that education bas to respond to the needs, not just of the employed, but of the unem ployed. As the unemployed numbers grow in Manitoba, as youth unemployment especially grows, the government must respond to those long-term plans for those particular sections.

Neither Workforce 2000 nor the market-driven programs of the colleges respond to that very precise need and, indee d, I would say tragic situation in parts of our community. So, Mr. Deputy Chaiipe rson, with that I will finish. I think the areas that divide us are clear. I would like to thank the minister for a relatively civil process of Estimat es, and particularly to thank the minister-[ interjection] Relatively civil, yes, it was relatively civil. I would like to thank the minister 's staff for their attention and the long bows that they have also put in. Thank you. Mr.

Deputy Chairperson: Shall the item pass? The item is accordingly passed. Resolution 16 .1: RESO

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-5-36b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 5th hansardpdf 36b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	429c56ad6d285d13bb1dec6d7821c4afa5b1bce5

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