Volume XLI Thursday Province of Newfoundland FORTY-FIRST GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND Second Session PRELIMINARY REPORT {Hansard) Speaker: Honourable Thomas Lush Number 92 6 December 1990

:.a .. The House met at 2:00 p.m. Mr. Speaker (Lush): Order, please! Before recognizing the Member l-or Eagle River I want to, on behalf of han. members, welcome to the galleries today three classes of Grade Vl students fJ~om Pius X school here in St. John's, accompanied by their teachers Mr . Ron Haller·an, Mr. Tom Hanlon, and Mr. Ron Abbott. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! The hon . the Member l-or Eagle River·. Mr. Dumaresque: Thank you, Mr . Speaker . Today_ I would like to draw the attention of han. members to an historic event that is happening today on the Coast of Labrador.

Newfoundland Telephone today is inaugu~ating a reg~lar telephone service to Pinsent • s Arm 1.1.1hich is the second last community on thE! Coast of Labrador, a permanent: community, to receive this kind of service . A lot of times han . members do not beliE!Ve that thc:~re are people in this Province who do not have this vital link to the outside community for their medical and personal business.

Today, it is rny pleasure:' to stand her·e and take this opportunity to thank Ne~~oundland Telephone For their work, and I hope that OV(O'r the next year or so we will be able to inaugurate this service for the last community on lhe Labrador Coast which does not have this service, Norman Bay. M1~. Speaker, I beg your indulgE!nce and thank you, very much. Some Hon . Members: Hear, h~::'ar! Ll Dece1nber 6, 1.990 Vol XL.I Statements by Ministers Mr. Speaker: The Minister of Employment Relations. hon . and the Labour Ms Cowan : Mr .

Spc~'aker, I arn pleased to announce that it is Government • s intention to amr:'nd the Labour Standards Regulations to eliminate the presen t two tiered minimum wage l:hal:. includes one wage level for domestics and a higher minimum 1.1.1age for a11 other workers. Sorn~ Hon . Members: Hear, hear! Ms Cowan: This discrimination against domestic and child care workers who are nearly always female cannot bE! permitted to continue. In addition, Mr . Speaker, Lhe minimum ~Jage ~Jill bE! increased to $4-.75 from $4-.25 per hour.

Jt is our intention to have both changes to the R£gulations become efFective A p 1~ i 1 1 , 1 9 9 1 . This JAJi11 allow employers U .JnE! to make provision for the changes. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker·: The hon . the Mmnbt=.•r for Harbour Main . Mr. Doyle: Mr. Speakt:!r, ].(, L ITIE! first of all thank the Mi _nj_s Lei" For a copy of her statement and to say that Wf J support Fully Lhe' initiatives oF the Minister today.

She:~ IAJL11 r·E·nJernber· I quest .ioned ht:H' at Budget l::irne on whether or not the two tiered system would be eliminated, bol:h a fe~J months ago and in the' BuclsJ<:·t bE!fOJ~E:~ l:hat as w~'!J.l. We are quite plE!clSe'd incler:"cl that t.his foJ"m of discrimination, if you will, is Fina11y being removed becaus e it No. 92 In

is discrimination against women because nearly all the domestics and child care workers are female. So it is a step that we support fully, Mr. Speake1n. And I notice as well that the Federation of Labour in their brief to Government approximately a year ago called for this as well. So we are very pleased indeed that the Minister has finally taken this step and we support fully this initiative. Some Hon . Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker _: Further Statements By Ministers. The hon . the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations. Ms Cowan: Mr . Speaker, pursuant to

Section 114 of The Workers' Compensation Act, 1983, I am today announcing the appointment of a Committee to review several aspects of the Workers' Compensation Commission. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Ms Cowan: provides ·for Five years, The Legislation the appointment every of a ReviE!W Commit tee to examine and report on such matters 1nespecting the Act. as the Committee deems fit and upon such matters as the Lieutenant-Governor in Council or Minister of Employment and Labour Relat.ions may refer to the Committee. The last f~eview Cornrnitl:.ee was appointed in November 1986.

Most of its recommendations have been implemented by the Commission but a few issues remain outstanding and require further study. These will be add res sed by this cur r en t 1neview process, which is beginning earlier than required by the legislation. L2 Dec emb er 6 , 1990 Vol XLI Some recent difficulties with certain aspects of workers' compensation and administration need to be addressed and government considers it appropriate to establish the review committee before making any changes . The Committee will be comprised of three people. The Chairperson will be Mr.

Clarence Randell, Deputy Minister of Employment and Labour Relations . The worker representative will be Mln. Jtrn Gill the national representative of the Canadian Auto Workers Union and the Employer represental:ive will be Mln. Robr:~1nt G:iannou, OlAJner of Corporate Services Limited a management consulting company . The Committee has been asked to report within six months. The Review Committee t..uill in the course of its considerations include the following: 1·.

Evaluation of the neU.J tJJa~~e loss system of workers compensation that was introduced in 1984 in or 'dE!r to ascet"tain if it is meeting the objectives originally intended. 2. Analysis of l:h e fundtng levt:• ls of the Workers' Compensation Commission and the establishm ent oF parameters For revenues expenditures and deb t. 3. Assessment of th e relevanc e of experience rating within the context of a new Financial strate gy for the Commission . 4. A review of the merits or otherwise of a policy by UH~ Commission to pay in te r'es 1:. on delayed compensation payments. S .

Assessrnt:'nt: oF sr:'ction 21. '/ of the Act and its provisions of the No. 92 R2

Board of Directors to determine the issue or

interpretation of policy or law after a matter has been decided by the Appeal Tribunal. 6. Re-evaluation of the current legislative provisions respecting the right of injured workers to claim compensation and commence third party legal action. 7. Review of

Section 76 and 77 of the Act and assessment of whether the rehabilitation policies of the Commission are appropriate. 8. Examination of the cost-benefit of funding provided by the Commission for Occupational Health and Safety initiatives. 9. Analysis of the merits ·or otherwise of combining for o~e individual on a Full time basis the duties and the responsibilities of the Chief Executive Officer with those of Lhe Chairperson of the Board of Directors . 10. Consideration of the advisability of extending coverage of the Act to individuals involved in rescues at sea, such as provided for in

section 67 to mine rescues. 11. A review of Act relating diseases . Part to Vl of the industrial Mr. Speaker, I alfl pleased to announce the appointment of this Review Committee and I am confident that the high caJ.ibrt::' of the individuals lAJho have ag1need to SE!rve on the Committee t~1ill ensure that var-ious issues idE!ntified will receive a thorough examination. rhank you. L3 DE!cembel" 6. 1990 Vo1 XLI Some Han. Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker: Tl1e han. the M~:~mber for Harbour Main. Mr. Doyle: Thank you, Mr. Speaker .

Let me thank the Minister as welJ. for delivering a copy of her statement to me a couplE! of minutes before coming to the House. Again we welcome the decision of Government to sEd:. up this Review Committee. As the Minister indicated a few minutes ago, the Act pinovides For' lnE!Vir:!W every five years and I believe this review is certainly long overdue. The Workers' Compensation Commission certainly needs to be reviewed. There s eerns to be:~, or we are hearinq at lf'!ast., that there are a lot of problems at the Cornrnission.

And I am please:'d that the Commission or the Revi,'!tAJ has as one of its terrns oF t"eference: they will be looking at the pr-oblem of the AppE!a1 Tribunal ulith respect to

interpretation of policy affecting thE! appE:'als tribunal, so tJJe are pleas~~d to see that as one of the tenns of reference, It see:'rns to rnE! that there is a real morale probJ.em within the Workers' Compensation Commission, and hopefu1ly the revie:'w process wi11 go a long lAJay to clea1n up some oF Lhe problems we are hearing about . There seE!rns to bE! a 1o t of' complaints corrring frorn thE! gc:-nel"al public as to ·the lE!rtgLh oF tirne j t takE!S to Pl"ocess claims, and that rnay 01n rnay not bE! true. Hope ·Fu11y the review wi11 be able to address these types of concerns and probably heighten morale a liU :lE! bit at l':he Commission, which certainly needs to be done . No. 92 R3

I hope the review, as well, is a very comprehensive one. I do not know all the people the Minis l~er has appo±nted to the review commission, but I am very pleased to see the Deputy Minister of Labour, Mr. Randell, on ·that Commission. I have a lot of confidence in his ability, having worked with him for about three and a half years; I know what he is capable of and what kind of a job he will do on that Committee. I hope the commitment the Government makes to the resources for that study will enable the Committee to do a good job, a good, decent job.

As I said, a lot of complaints have bt'en directed towards the Cormnission, but we cannot forget, as well, that the Workers 1 Compensation Commission do a lot of good work also, and it never seems to get out. All we hear is complaint, complaint after complaint after complaint about the Commission, but what about all the good work the Commission does? And there are some really fine people working at that Commission with whim I have had the opportunity, and I am sure all Members have, to go and to sit down and wo1nk .

There are a lot of good people down there, a lot of fine, efficient, well-qualified people, but we are hearing some ho1nror stories, sometimes, coming out of the Commission and we wonder if all these are legitimate. rhe review process will, I beliE!Ve, serve to clear up a lot: of that, and we look forward to the result of it. Mr. Speaker : The hon . Minister of Municipal Provincial Affairs. !"'r.

Gullaqe: Mr . this opportunity Spe:~ake:'r, I to aclciJ"es s the and take the 1_4- December 6, 1990 Vol XLI House on a matter which is very important to the people of our Province and, indeed, all residents of our count1ny. As the Minister with responsibilities for communications, I feel it is incumbent upon me to respond to the announced downsizing of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, which includes the loss of some seventy positions in our Province, together with the closure of stations in Corner Brook and Goose Bay, Labrador .

We must take stTong E!XCE!pl:ion to the callous mannel" in lAJhich th·is announcement was made by the Canadian Broadcas ting Corporation. As we are aJAJ arE·, employees of the Corporation WE!re informed via closed circuit TV that tht~ir jobs had disappE!alnE•d. I think the country in general and the employees of C8C in particular were shocked, and r·ighlly so, by the:' despicable manner in IA.Jhich Lhe announcement was handled. Some Han . Members: HE!ar, hE!ar! Min.

Gulla ge: Th ese so on to l:lE:! displaced employees, who contributed in a meaningful way to the Corporation, were litE:'r·ally thrown to the stre ets and told to fend for thr:'mselves. For a Corporation in the business of communications, the manner in which the announcement wa s made leaves a lot to be desir ed. We have carn e to _ E:~xpec t more f'rorn the CBC. I think we are all very much aware of the fact that the closu1n e of the stations in Con1er· Brook and Goose Bay will have a most serious impact on l:he economy of these "i:IAJO centlnc?.s, as it IAJi11 be VE•ry di fficult for those displaced No. 92 R4

~ employees to b~~ able to find alternate means of employment in their chosen ptno ·Fession. While some:~ of the employees in the lar·ger centres may be absorbed in private sector broadcasting, this is not likely to happen in our Province. The technicians, writers, actors, etc., who will be affected by this restrictive policy will have a far greater impact on our small population than elsewhere in Canada. Additionally. the withdrawal of local programming by CBC is particularly severe in this Province, which is recognized as having an unique cultural identity.

The Canadian Broadcasting Corporation has supported the arts in Newfound1and and labrador by its mounting of special dr·ama ptnoduct.ions as tJJell as documE!ntaries and so for·th. which tJJere often aired nationally and which received critical acclaim. The CBC has allowed us to see ourselves as a distinct soc~ety and to share our cultura1 values Wit.h the lnE!St of OUln fatn-rE:'aChing nation and the effects of the downsizing will be felt across the country.

I know that Newfoundlanders and Labradotnians WE!re ver·y dismayed to learn that the extremely popular 11 Land & Sea" program is to be axed and that they are not even going to be allowed to complete the series of programs they are now producing. This progtnarn has b~~en running for several decadE!S - it is what Newfoundland and labrador is all about and it lJJi11 be sadly missed, not only by vj.ewers in our Province. but across the country. I_

I) December 6, 1990 Vol XLI It is my opinion. Min. Speaketn. that the CBC Board of Directors is making a grave mistake in the manner in which the CBC has chosen to deal Llli th its budget. problE:~rns. As the current Broadcasting Act suggests. and I arn surE! those who many years ago were instrumental in establishing the CI3C l..ltould agree. the primary purpose of the Corporation is to bE! the VE!hic1r:~ for Canadians from coast to coast to share and enjoy their dtvetnsE:~ cultures and thereby Form a stronger Canadian bond.

These measures which the Corporation has announced, certainly in my opinion, are opposil:e to what I feel, and I am surE! thE! rnaj or·i ty of Canadians feel, the Corporat~ion should be doing at this j unct:.utnE:' of Canadian history. Local and regional programming, in my opinion, should not boar the brunt of thE:' budget cut-·backs. Indeed, Mr. Speaker, I feel Lhts acl~.iv·it:y should be the first thing to be preserved if the Cf.lC is to. exist at ail. Sam~ Hon. Memb~rs: Hear, hear! Mr.

Gullage: It is my intention t o rn e e t lAd t h 1 o c a 1 c B C 1 n a 11 a q E:' 1 n e n t officials as soon as possiblr:• lJJ obtain all the details of how CBC Newfoundland opetnatiol1s lJJ·i11 be affected and attempt to d~~tE!r'tn:ine lAJhether or not thel"r:' rnay be:~ further measures which the Co 1n p or at i o n i s c o n temp 1 at i 11 g LIJ hi c h may impact on the ProvinCE! or, rnor·e par·ticularly. the entploye~~s of CBC. Mr. Spr:~aker. what: the CBC has donE:' is unacceptable to rrw and l believe that lflost members of this House share that view.

The CBC is a publicly funde?.d corpor·al·:ion t'lnd I feel the Federa1 Government: must inter v t'! n e in Uris matter M 1n. Speaker, I intend to convey my No. 92 R5

concerns in the':~ strongest possible terms to the Fedt=:~ral Ministe1n of Communications. Thank you. Some Han. Members: Hear, hea1n! Mr . Speaker: The hon. the Opposition House Leader. Mr. Simms: Thank you . Mr . Speaker, we share the sentiments expressed for the most part, indeed entirely, expressed by thl':~ Minister responsible in this particular situation. I think it would be fai1n to say that all of us received the dramatic announcements of the last twenty-four hours or so with a great deal of dismay and shock.

What has happened and what will happen I fear, as a result of thr:~se dramatic changes, is that we as Newfoundlanders, as a people will have seriously eroded our very culture and our very history. That is what is going to happen. That will be th·e net res~lt. The whole purpose of CBC, not only· in Newfoundland, but, indeed, throughout Canada, certainly in Newfoundland, is to act as an instrument of communication for the people of the Province, particularly in our case, the peoplE! of rural Newfoundland and in the':' remote areas of the Province. Mr.

Speakeln, if you look at some of the detailed information that has been provided you will see that the amount oF money cut, if you want, from the Newfoundland operation is really a petty, little amount - I think the amount is about $4 . 5 million. NotAl that $4.5 million reduction has, in fact, seriously attacked our veJ"Y nature here in NetA.JfoundJ.and; the entire Province is affec~ed by it. But if you took $4. r..; million f'r·om the Toronto op( :;or·ation or the L6 DE:'cembr:q " 6, 1.990 Vol XLI Montreal opE!J"ation, it probably would not even be missed.

I would suggest to the CBC that they might have looked at it, perhaps, :in a little differl':~nt way, in a litt.1E! different light . Mr. Speaker, $4. 5 miLLion in the coming fiscal year is what will be cut from the CBC 1 s budget hE!re in this Province. Seventy positions, 7-0, seventy jobs, lAJil1 bE! :Lost, and about 600 hours oF regionally . and loca1ly produced T.V . pi~ograrns will be eliminated, and the MinistE!r lnE!FE!rrecl to somE~ of the programs: "Land & St=:'a", an institution in this Province for years, one of the most positive - Some Hon. Members : Hear, hear! Mr.

Simms: - ono of' the rnosl positive programs, I JAJould a1"gue, ever produced . In fact, nol: on1y is it a major, most1y JA.Jat:. chr::•cl program in Newfoundland and Labrador, it is wa tc h"ed all a c I" OS s the country. Becaus(~ it is now, I think, a r·t::~gwlal" Fr:!a tuJ"E~ on thE• Newsworld channel and so on. The On Camera program. Sur(~ LhE! PJ"emieJ" can at tr:•st. l~.o it , having been the most recent guest, as well as the President or Treasui"Y Board in the past.

As much as sorne of us in the past have appl':'ar' ed on the On CarnE!r'a proqJ "cun, and felt maybe a bi t uncom fortable because of the prE~ss inq qui':'S l~.:ions, but enjoyed it. It is a hiqhly rated program, without question. Newfoundland Outdoors, anot:.her very popular program locally produced. MUN Music. Dialogue hosted by Richard Beaton. Must people would not: believ(~ the high ratings that progralfl has . l t. has shot up in just the last couple of years to very high ratings. Shirley Newhook 1 s Coi'Fee Br·t::.ak 'is No . 92 R6

another program that gets a lot of viewers. So, Mt". Speaker, that will be eliminated. And in Cot"ner Brook, Labrador City and Goose Bay, ·t:he entire local programming will be totally eliminated. Except for, I suppose, the odd - they might do a Larry Hudson thing het"e and there, something like that. We are not sut"e of that. Some Han. Members: (Inaudible). Mr. Simms: Nothing at ali. Well, in any event, it is a terrible decision and I think we all recognize that it is a terrible decision. And, Mr.

Speaket", I want to tell you this: I went over to CBC today around noon, and while I was there I met with a number of workers. And it was pointed out. to me in no uncertain terms that LI.Jhat has transpirE!d is this: in Canada, in all l:he othc'::~r Provinces in Canada, other jurisdictions, years ago they traded off local programming for regional programming - · in other Provinces. In Newfoundland, the opposite occurrc'::~d. rhey LI.Janted moJ"e local programming and ri~Jhtly so, because of our history and our cultuJ"e and our gE•ography and all the rest of it. So, Newfoundland Mr.

Speaket" : Order, plE:~ase! rhe han. Member 1 s time is up. Some Han . Members : leave! s"y leave! Mr. Speaker: By leave . By Mr. Simms: I thank l:he han . Members, I will jusl be brief. Bu L in NetAJfoundland, thr:!l"efot"e, it affects us a hell of a lol: more L7 December· 6, 1990 Vol XLI than it affects anybody else in thr:~ country, and that is the point I arn trying to make, Mr. Speai<E:~r, with respect to that. And, Mr. Speaker, all of us in t:.his House should Ieave no stone unturned. This is an important matter, a very important matter. The more Members think about it, I believe, it will become even mot"E!

E!Vident. But none of us - we should all leave no stonE• untut"n€:!d to tt"Y to get these decisions t"ev1:!rsed. We really should do that. I just want to end with this. I sa'.id I met tAd th sorne o·F the workers ovet" at CBC today, at noonish. And, Mr. Spt::~akt:,~r, somE• of those tJJorkers, by the way, LI.IC:'l"c'::' in their fifties, early fiftiE!S. So what are they going to do next Apri.I? And they are hiqhly trained people, very professional people. It is not going to be easy, particu1arly in lhE•s1:• t:irnc'!S, for those individuals.

But the feE! ling I got Fl"Orn tal Icing l~o ' thE:~ ITI, qui t e Frank 1 y·, l.l.Ja s no l:. so rnuch · a concern fot" l~heil" otAJn individual jobs, and l:hey w~:!l"e very sincere about it, not so much a concer·n For their otJJn individual jobs, theit" otJJn pE:!l"sona1 jobs, but the fact that these PI"Oqr'iWIS IAJhich are so high1y rated, so highly tJJa t c he d , up to 'l 0 p E· r c 1? n t oF t. he N ewf o u n eli an cl vi etAii n g au cl i 1:' n c E! are going to be e1itninab~d. And that, Mt".

Speaker, is a tet'Tible, terriblE:• s ha111e, and I can b~ ·ll you, I bel'.ieve that this issue rnust not bt::• a11oLI.JE'd Lo die. And I can tell you aJ.so, Mt". Speakel", that tJJe on this side of the House at ]east, LI.Ji1I plr,•clgE:' t:o clo evet"ything tJJe can, :includ ·ing making representations Lo our so-called political cousins in OttaLI.Ja t.o SE!e if Lhey cannot use their '.influence to reduce lhe (j.naudible). No. 9 2 R'/

Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker: rhe han. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs . Mr. Gullaqe: Mr . Speaker, I am pleased to announce today the appointment of a new Director of Cultural Affairs for· the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, effective January 7, 1991. The person selected to fill this important position is Eliza~eth M. Batstone, a native Newfoundlander who currently serves as the executive director of the Newfoundland Historic Parks. I am also pleased to announce that the Government Selection Committee was unanimous in its choice of Ms Bats tone.

Among othei"S. the Committee included Dr. Patrick O'Flah erty, Memorial University's Professor of Engli sh and the author of the 0' Flaherty Repo1"t on the Arts. Ms Bats tone ·t~Jas bor·~1 in Greens pond. Bonavista Bay. and was educated at Memorial University. For the past ten years she has been actively involved in arts and cul tul"e in both a voluntai"Y and a professional capacity . She has served as a member of the Board of the Newfoundland Symphony Orchestra and also as a mernbE•r of the Newfoundland Quarterly Magazine. Ms Batstone is a former vice-president of the St.

John's YM-YWCA and has played a leadership role on the regional, national and international level within the Canadian YM-YWCA movement:..

She;! has se1nved ::15 L.he NetJJfoundland l~epl"esenl:al:.iV(~ on th<"'• Canadian Advi so ry Council on the Status of Womr:!n, and, as l!.Jell, L8 Decr:!mber 6. 1990 VoJ XLI spent seven years as journalist in both newspaper . a free-lance radio and During the period fi"Om 1983-86 Ms Batstone served in Halifax as the executive director of the Nova Scotia Choral Federation, a province--tAJide arts organization, and also served as a board member of the Cultural Federations of Nova Scotia during that period.

She has displayed an extensive knowledge of the arts generalJy and the probl(WIS of art.ists in particular. and brings a bt"oad perspective regarding l:he cull:tu·al scene. Besides her outstanding administrative track r'ec olnd and her personal skills, Ms Batstone brings to l:.his posil:.ion an unqualified dedication to the :importance of arts and cu1Ltu·~~ :in the life of Newfoundland and Labrador.

The diversity of her background. and ·the:' widE:! val"iety of her experience, means that: she:• will be able to bring to the position a level of underst.anding in helping to develop new Arls policy - a policy that is not encumbered by any narrow definition of the arl:.istic community or any exclusive commitment to either of the artistic disciplines . The position of Director of Cultural Affairs is a very demanding one and I have every confid(:'nce that l:he P<"'!r'son t.uhom tJJe have selected is well suited l:.o carry out:. the duties and lnE!Sponsib:i1itiE!S of t.lri.s irnpol"ti:tnt office.

I n o u r s e a r c h f o r a n "~tAl D i r· e c t o r of Cult.u1naJ Affa:irs lAJe Jookr:!cl for' a person who possessed a keen knowJ.E•clge of" Ar·t:s Adrrlin:i st t"at..·ion and DeVt '>.loprnent; a person t,o.J:ith No. 92 I~ 8

strong oral and written communication abilities, a person u.Ji th managE:~ment training together with analytical and s u pe rvi s ory skills and the ability to maintain effective working r e 1 at ions hips . We believe Ms Batstone possesses all of these essential qualifications. I am pleased to say that many of the recommendations of the 0 1 Flaherty Report - as they relate to the duties and responsibilities of the Director of Culture Affairs were incorporated in the job description. As indicated. ·the Director of Cultural Affairs is a responsible position and, Ms.

Batstone 1 s mandate will be: To ensure effective provincial development in all areas of the performing, visual and literary arts covering both amateur and professional; To ensure effective administration, operation and programming of· six provincially-owned Arts and Culture Centres; To initiate international and interprovincial projects and programs; serve on national committees; initiate and develop support systems and activities; consult t~.lith the art is tic co rnm u n i t y ; o v E! r s e e the Newfoundland Arts and Letters Competition, and supervise and prepare the annual budge'!: of the Cultural Affairs Division of the Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs.

Newfoundland and Labrador is the home of some of the most creative and accomplished arl:ists to b~~ found anywhere . These very talented people are making an enormous contribution to the cultural and artistic life of outn Province and. as a Govelnnment, we do understand and appreciate the value of the arts in our society . L9 DecE:~rnbeln 6. 1990 VoJ.

XLI The new Director of Cultural Affairs wtll bE! in place earJ.y in the new year and I think it is reasonable t.o expect that, in thE:~ implementation of a new arts policy for the Province. the nE!lAJ director u.Jill assumli:' a leading position in the formulation and implementation of that policy . Mr. Speaker, there has been substantive movement on many of the . 0 1 Flaherty recommendations sinCE! the report tJ.Jas preSE!nb:,~d in March of this year. Perhaps it might be in order to review th E:'In.

Responsibility fo1n PJ~o-tocol has been lnE:~ITIOV!::'d fi"Orn the posi t:ion of Cultural AfFairs Dir -ector along with the responsibility for the day-to-day management of the St. John's Arts and Cultu1ne CE!ntre and other centres throughout the Prov'.ince. With reference to the Arts and . Culture CentrE!S. thE• 0 I r' lahE!rty Report suggested, aJJ'JOng ·other things, that productivity should be emphasized and we have initiated measures to accompli sh this .

As we1.1. a concE•rted E!ffort is being made to reactivate consul tat.ive co1nrnitte' :~s and th~:!~)E! comrnitteE!S arE:' to bE! qiVE!n a say tAlith respect to all proyr·aJnlning dE!Cisions. We have acted upon the 1necornrnendal: .ion that all spaCE! For the display of visu al art and scu1pture in the Arl :.s and Cu1l :ure Centres outside St. John's be placed under the control of the Regional Managers. Additionally, we Newfoundland and Council as the agency for Newfoundland certainly, No. 92 and such recoqniz e the Labrador Arts primary funding the arts in Labrador and recognition is r~9

the~e for the NLAC, and this is incorporated into legislation. The NLAC now decides 1 in council 1 on the names it is going to put forward to the Minister to serve on government committees or other bodies. In the past, names were recommended by the executive. However, in future they will now be recommended by the full council. For the very first time this year, the art work purchased under the Art Procurement Program was exhibited publicly as suggested in the 0 1 Flaherty Report.

In linr::'! recommendations, Cultural Affairs a pamphlet with other the Division of is now publishing explaining the schedules and guidelines, procedures Program . for the Art Procurement available inter·estecl The pamphlet is upon request to all parties. fhe 1 international/interprovincial Touring Grants 1 program is now administered by the Director of Cultural Affairs, and guidelines for the program al~e draLAm up and publicizr:~d to all artists in thr:' Province. These guidelines are available at l:he Arts and Culture Cent1nes or they a1ne mailed ouL to anyone who wants them.

As the · Minister responsible, I will endeavour to represent the interests of Arts and Culturf~ to the best of my ability and I want to reassure Artists in particular that, as a Government, we appre cia tE• and value the arts community and the tremendous contribution that artists are making to the well-being of our Province. rhank you. §g_r~-~ .... J::!.C?...D .. ~---M.~.JIIJ:!..~ . .!:.~ : Hear , hear! uo DeCE:'inber 6. 1990 Vo1 XLI Mr. Speaker: The hon. Mt 'Hflb(:~r For Humbe1n East . Ms Verqe: Thank you, Speaker. The fact: of Uw is that this Government has neglected the arts in its nineteen months in office.

Mr. matter badly first The position of Director of Cultural Affairs is vitally impo1ntant, yet it has beE!n vacant for twenty months. The Provincial Government has not had a Dil"ec t.or of Cultural Affairs since John Perlin retired on March 31, 1989. This Administration, in nineteen months in office, did not even appoint a pe1nson t.o fi11 the position in an acting capacity; the GovernmE!nt did not ev~:·n bE!~1in to recruit applicants For the position until 1ate August this year, after considerable pressure. Some Hon. Members: Shame! Ms Verge: Mr .

Speaker, the Government has brought down two Budgets 1.uithout a D-.i1"~:!cto1o of Cultural Af·Fairs. rhe CovE•rnlnE!I1t wil1 have most of the work completed on its t.hil"d BudgE!t, the Budget For the 1991-92 fiscc:d year. before a D-irector of Cultural Affairs is in posit-.ion. Now, Ml". long last, delay - Speaker, despitE! I a111 q1acl a L the inexcusable Some Hon. Members: H«::'ar. hear! An Hon. Memb~r : At long last . Ms Verge: At long last - despite the inexcusable delay that. the Government is appointing a Director of Cultural Aff airs.

I respect the process the GOVE!r·nment followed in recruiting candidates and selPct:.ing l:hE:' successful candidate; I am gJ.acl tiH! No. 92 R 10

Government included on the Public Services Commission Interview Committee Dr. Patrick O'Flaherty, the Chairperson of the GovernrnE!nt Arts Policy Committee. Mr. Speaker, I do not know Ms Elizabeth Batstone's experience and involvement in the Arts, but I do know Ms Batstone personally. She and I both worked in the Women's Movement in the Province in the 1970s. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Ms Verge: She t.>.Jas IAli th the Grand Falls Status of Women Council when I was active with the Corner Brook Status of Women Council. And. Mr. Speaker.

I do trust the judgment of the Public Service Committee and the Interview Committee in particular, and I note the minister's statement that Ms Batstone has displayed an extensive knowledge of -the arts ·generally and the -problems of artists in particular. and brings a broad perspective regarding the cultural scene. Mr. Speaker, thE! ministE·r mentions t h a t M s B a t s t o n e lkr.i 11 h a v E:~ a challenging job, and that is certainly true. rhe challenge of the Director of Cultural Affairs is greater than it should be, given thE! atti.l:ude o-F thr::!

Prernir:~1n and the placement of the Division of Cultu1nal Affairs t.>.Jithin the bureaucracy. Cultural affairs har·dly has a chanCE!, drowning as it is in a sea of sewers and swirnrrring poo1s. TherE:~ is no way that any one minister, rE!gardlE!SS of how wel1-intentioned he or she might be, can adequately address cultur·al and ar·ts issues whE:~n th<:~ same ·.individual has responsibility for Municipal Affair's, Recreation, the Fire Commissioner's OFfice, Lll DecE•rnber' 6, 1990 Vol XLI Youth and Housing. It is an impossible task. And it is high time thE!

PlnE!lflieln l"eal:i.zecl that: thE! arts and culture should be assigned to a. Minister with the interest and the time to assist in the development of appropriate polici~::~s. Now, Mr. Speaker. in conclusion I would like to comment on the content of the Government's arts policy rE!pOlnt. The Gover'nlm~nt has lar,jely ir3nored that report, even though the Government has had l:he report since thE! end of Mar·ch. The Premier' admil:l:ed recently that he has not eVE!n read the rE!port. NOIAI the report calls for major po] ·icy development and a significant budget increase.

In the budget for the present year the Government actually cut back the real grant to the Plnovincia1. Ar'U; Council, which is the Vt'hicle for allocating Provincial public funding to artists and arts . q1noups in the Pl"OVincc:'. Ml". Speaker, li.p SE!rvice frorn th<:! Minister is not enough . I call on the Minister and the Premier to put UllC>ir money whE!rE! Lh<~ir mouth is and to :inc1n~::~asE• signHi.cant1y the budget For the Plnovincia.l Al"ts Council, beginning by an irnrnecl :iatr::· transfer oF the unus1:'!d po1nt- i.on o·f the DirecLor's salary for Lhis year to the Arts Council budget. An Hon .

Member: Hear, hear l Ms Verge: Mr. Speaker, the Minister intended to have a Director in place last winter - Mr. Speaker : Or·cler, please! Oi"dE!r, pl.c:~asC:'! The hon. Member's time is up. No. 92 ~~ 1 I.

Some Han. Members: By leave! By leave! Ms _ Verge: If I might completE! my s~::~ntence, Premier. Some Hon. Members: No leave! No lec-.1v e! Ms Verge: to have a lAlinter - The Minister intended Director in place last Mr. Speaker: Order, please! Ordel", please! The han. ME!mbE!r 1 s time is up and I gather there is no leave granted. An Han. Member : clue up. Give her time to Ms Verge: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Oral Questions Mr. Speaker : · The hon. the .opposition House Leader . Mr. Simms : Thank you, Mr. SpE!aker. Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister oF Works, Services and Transportation.

This past fall the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs changed the staffing policy, as the Ministr:•r would know, for the St. John 1 s Fire Department whtch would leavr:! positions vacant lAJhen fire fighters were on leave because of illness or another valid reason. That policy, incidentally, we think seriously affects fire protection to residents of St. John 1 s, particularly in the East End. My question to the Minister of Works, Services TranspOl"tation.

Has hl'' similar policy with 1.. 12 December 6, 1990 and adop tr:•d a r'E!Spect to Vol XLI security staFf on duty in public buildings, fOl" example, thE! St. John 1 s Arts and Culture Centre? To bE! spE!cific, does hE! haVE! a policy ·nO l: to rE:~place SE!CUr:ity individuals off work bE!CC:\USI::~ tllness or leave? Mr . Speaker: The hon. Minister of Works, Services Transportation . of the and Mr. Gilbe.rt: Ml". Sp ·e~kr::>r', U..Je introduced a new programme last year, as you know.

WE! ai"E:! go:ing to an automated system and that will mean that as people retire who are filling thoso jobs, l:hey will not be replaced because we are into an automated systr::~m. rhe policy we are following is the one that. is generally FollotAIC::!d :in Government in replacing people when they are off sick. Ml" . Speaker: ThE! hon. thE:! Opposition House Leader . Mr . Simms: A supplementary, Mr . Spr::'aker. LE•t lrll':! ask him sornething specific. PE!rhaps tJ.J(! can ZC::!I"O in on the issue. Is the Minister a1.uare, fOI" E:~xarnpl1=.!, t.hat last night at the Arts and Culture CE!ntre herE• in St .

John 1 s thel"e was only one security guard on duty, half thE! nol"lrldl COilipJ.(:•rnent., because the sr:'cond guard schEHJuled for duty was sick and U1E' C~::,nLre had been l:old nol. l:.o rE:!place security personnel? Min. Speaker': The hon. lhe Minister of Works, Services and Transportation. Ml". Gilber't: Ml" . ~3peab:'r', Lhei"E' are 3, 100 ernployer:•s 'i11 111y Department and I really do nol: knol!..J if one tAJas sick and iF the other one was noL replaced. But I lAJ:i 11 certain 1 y c he c I< f o I" L h r::~ h on . rnernber and qive him an anstAJE!I" No. 92 I< 1 2

tomorrow. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Opposition House Leader . Mr. Simms: Perhaps, Mr. Speaker, if the Minister was atAJare of the serious situation I am talking about he would not be trying to make such a joke about the situation. Is the Minister aware that last night ·there were more than 1, 000 people at the Arts and Culture Center? More than 300 of them school age children. Is he also aware that a number of the fire lanes were blocked and a number of accesses were obstructed at uarious areas around the building?

And in that kind of a situation wouldn 1 t he haue concern for public safety and would he consider one security guard, therefore, enough to handle any potential emergency that might ' ? arlse. Mr . Speaker: The han. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation. Mr . Gilbert : Mr . Sp€:~aker', the fearmongering goes on. I will check into the allegations that the han. Membc.;!r is making and give him a r'eport. But aga:in, it is typical of the fearrnongering that you get from that crowd over there. Mr . Speaker : The hon . the Opposition House Leader . Some Han. Members : (Inaudible) . Mr.

Speaker : Order, please! Mr . Simms: A final suppl.:'men ·tary, Mr. Speaker. It is a bit unfortunate that somehow or another members on this side cannot ask questions at all. He L1.3 Decernbei~ 6, 1990 Vol XLI says it is fearrnongE'!ring, he says it is fear'rnonger'ing, he says it is fearmongering. When you do not have a val:id answ~::~r. I suppose, it is b€:~st to dE!fh~ct it. by accusing us of fearmongering. My final supplementary, Mr. Speaker, is to the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations.

Will the Minister investigate this particular situation I haue raised, becausE• I have had caLls about it, concer·ns about: il:, and I want to know if she would investigate the situation and de terrnine speciFically whe thr:'r security and safety measur'es conform to occupationaJ. hE·alth and safety codes sections 43 . and '14, or were these sections violated? Would she check into that and tell rne? M1~. " Speaker: The:~ Minister of Ernployrne:>nl: Relations. hon . and thE~ Laboul~ Ms Cowan: Certainly, Ml ". ~>peakel~, I tAJill be only too pleased to look into it and to consult with my colleague on the matter.

Mr. SpE~aker: Th€:~ hon. the Memi:Jer· for Grand Bank . Mr. MatthetAJs: fhank you, Mr . Speaker. Ml". Speaker, rny question is to the Minister of Fisheries. On NoVE!rnbE•r 28, the MinistE·I~ of Fisl1eries .inFormed l:he HousE! that he had r'ecomrnE!ndE!cl to t.he Feclei"a1 Minister of Fisher·ies that Lhe tot.aJ. al1otJJab1e catch f'ol" thr::! northe1~n cod stacks blc> set be l:.WE!en 170,000 and 185,000 rnel'.:ric tons For 1991. Has t.he Minister received any indication from the Federal 1ninister whetht:•r' Ol" not his recommendation has been accepted or has he bet~n qiv<:.>n any No. 92 rn3

indication as to what we can expect the total allowable catch to be in 1991? Mr. Speaker : The Minister of Fisheries. hon. the Mr. Carter: No, Mr . Speaker, I have not. Th€:~ only thing I can tell the House and the hon. Member is that th€:' minister, during his most ,~ecent visit to the Province, ~ndicated that he probably would be able to make an announcement to that effect a1nound D~~cernb~~r 10. 01n the 15, within that area. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Me:Hnber fo1n Grand Bank . Mr. Matthews: A supplementary. Mr. Speaker.

The Minister also said publicly, and under questioning in the House, that the Provincial Government is taking • l:he position that any reduction in the total allowable catch should come from the offshore fishery. I am u..Jondering if the Mi .rd.stE!r has any information to indicate that the Federal GoVE!rnrnent intends to apply the 1991 TAC reduction strictly on thr:' back of thr:~ offshore? Has he received any indication from the Federal Minister that that is a fact? Mr . Speaker: The Minister of Fisheries . hon. l:he Mr. Carter : Mr. Speaker, no, I can't say much about that either.

I can only teLl the House and the hon. gentleman that there appea1ns to be some pressure building up in some quarters, including the Province of Nova Scotia. to have the ins hare allowance reduced. if in fa ct it is found necessary to reduce the total allo!;.Jable catch. I repE!at, l:here is FH'E!S SUinE!, I arn sure. on the Feder·al Minis LE:~I~ of FishE!ries and Oceans to do that, 1..14 December 6, 1990 Vol XLI so I guess tJ.Je u..rU.l have to !Ald. it and see, but he:~ has not ind'i.cat.E!d to me one way or the other, 1/Jhat his intentions are in that regard. Mr.

Speaker: Thl':~ hon. the ME!mb10r for Grand Bank. Mr. Matthews: A further supplementary, Mr . Speaker . Can the Minister conf:ir·m Fo1" the House, that he has re:'C E!ived thE• report of the Maloney inquiry into the Newfoundland FishE!J"y? DOE!S the report contain any recommendations rE!latiVE! to th1::> siZ<:! and application of l:he 1991 TAC? Had thE!

FedE:'J"al Mird.ster of Fisheries received the report prior to making his announceJnE•nt on the 1991 TAC, and l;.r.i.J.J. the Minister be making th'i. s report public, so that the peoplE:' in the Province can see the results of the recolllrnE~ndations of the Maloney inquiry? ~ . .r.: .. , ... , __ ,_·-~.P .. ~-~-k. ... ~ .. !.:'- : The Minister of Fisheries . hon. thE! Mr. Carter: Mr .

Sp€:'akE!r, yes , IAJE! have rec~dVE!d the MaJ.onPy lnepol"t, in fact the Premier and I received it, I believe 'i.t IAJas Monday past, and as soon as we have a chance to review it and do what one normaJ.ly does ,,~,Jith such a report, U!E'n IJJE• wi.ll be r e leas 'i. n g its contents to the public. I can't say nou..J wi·H,n that will bE!, but: I can onJ.y say that it will be at some future date released for pubJ.ic viewing. Mr . Speaker : The hon. thE:' ME•rnber fo -r Grand Bank . Mr . Matthews : A final supplemE:~ntary. Mr. SpeakB!''.

The Minister probably did not ptck up a11 the supplementary. but I was just IAJonder'i. ng iF in th<::' pE! ru s aJ. o·f the report the Minister or· l.he No. 9 2 I~ lll-

Premier or the Government has seen anything that may influence the Federal MinistE•r 1 s decision as it pertains to the total allowable catch for 1991, and if so, has he made that information available or the recommendation available to the Federal Minister to hopefully influence his decision on setting the allocation for 1991? Mr. Speaker: The Minister of Fisheries. hon. the Mr. Carter: Mr.

Speaker, I am not going to ·, at this point in time, release any of the contents of the report or its recommendations, except to say that a copy of the report will be sent to the Federal Minister of Fisheries and Oceans within a day or huo and then we will have to wait and see. But it is a good report, I should add, Mr. Speaker, it is an excellent report, and I think it is going to help Newfoundland 1 s position in many respects, in te.rms of dealing with the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. Mr . Speaker : The hon. the Member for St. Mary 1 s- The Cape s. Mr. Hearn: Mr. Speaker, rny question is to the han .

MinistE!r responsible for Health. I wonder if the Minister would advise the House of the reasons why the Health Sciences Complex is laying off sixteen nur ses with effect From December 22nd, 199 0? Mr. Speaker : The han. the Minister of Health . Mr . Decker: Mr . Speaker, in this fiscal year the Health Sciences anticipated that they would neE>.d x number of nu1nses. Judging by past y e a r s , w h f:' r e t 1·1 E:! r e tAl a s a he a v y turnover and where the pay for I. 1 S DecC:'mbE:~r 6, 1990 Vol XLI nurses was lower, a J.ot of nurSE!S used to quit, so, just as, if the hon.

ME!rnbeln flic7~S on a planE! sometimes the seats a1ne overbooked in thE! anticipation that all the people will not turn up, the hospital hired more nurses than they actually needed in anticipation that sornE:! of thern would leave. Of course they discovered that they had too rnany nurses, Mr. Speaker, an d l:hey had to lay them ofF. An Han. Member: They overhired . Mr. Speaker: The han . thE! Member for St. Mary 1 s- The Capes. M1n. Hearn: M1n. SpeakE!r, a-t lr::!aS t two of the nurses had been recruited by the hospital frorn Ireland, t.~.Jith appointrnenl:s · l:ak ing effect Frorn September 2q, 1990.

Can the Ministt:~r confirm l:l'bE!Se appointrnE!nts weJ"e fo1" a onE• yE•C:H' period, and that they have been terminated due to Government cu ·tbacks. Mr. Speaker : The hon. lhE:! Minister of Health . Mr . Decker: Ml" . Speaker, it. :is difficult For me lo deal with specific incidents becausE• I tAJou1cl think that inst.itut- .ion hires a considerable number of nurse s.

However, if they were hired on con'l:Jnact, and if the cont1nact lAJas terminated, no doubt they will have a valid ar'~Jurnent. to ~JO against Lhe hospil:.a1, bul: . to dat:e there have been no n u I" s r::· s 1 a 'i cl o 1:~ r­ at: any hospital in Lhis Province clue to cutbacks, Ml". Speake!", because t:ht:'re ar'E! no cutbacks in this fiscal year. Some Hon. Members: Hear, heal"! Mr . Speaker : \he hon . Lhe MelflbE!r for St. Mary's - The Capes. No . 9 2 RlS

Mr. Hearn: Mr . Speaker, the Minister has denied layoffs have anything to do with cutbacks. Why then were the mtrses informed in thei1n letters of dismissal, and I quote, 'due to lack of work and financial resources the Nursing Department has decided to reduce the float team by sixteen NulnSE! 1 positions?' I ask the Minister also, what does hE:~ think this does to the possible recruiting of expertise outside thE:~ Province, when you are hired for a ye ·ar, use your own money, leave employment to come over here to work with employment offered for a year, to be laid off after a few weeks and sent home? Mr .

Speaker : The han. the Minister of Health. Mr. DE!Cker: Mr. Speaker, I think I answered that part of the question in the first answer I gave, wh1;!re I explained the reason why it lAtas done. As the letter points out it was because of a shortage of work due to, it seems like, · whE!re the hospil:.al over-hired. As far as atl:racting people to come to the Province, Mr. SpeakE!r, I am not atJJare that we haVE! had any problem to date. As a matter of Fact within the last few weeks tJJe hirc:'d a doctor from overseas to serve in Eagle River, so we are not hav:.ng any problem tJJith hiring staff.

Da:i1y, I reudve letters From people all around the tJJorld who are looking For positions in this Province. I should say, Min. Speaker, that the same thing we are doing in this Province is being done by every other province in this nation. I have talked with them at a rE!cent Minister's conference and they are all taking similar action. It is unfortunate that the fiscal reality is such, but lAH~ ar·e not doing anything which is unique. Ll6 DE!Cember 6, 1990 Vo1 XLI It is just what the rE!St of our people are doing across the nation. Mr. Speaker: for Fogo. The hon. the Mernber Mr.

Winsor : My question is to thE• Minister of Social Services. In view of l:.he drarnatic inctnE!asc:•s that occurred recently both in fuel oil and electricity costs, 01~ will occur in the new year, has the Minister given any consideration to increasing the basic allowance for social services recipients for the remainder of this fiscal year? Mr. Speaker : The hon. the Minister of Social Services . Mr. Efford: Mr. Speaker, I have always contE:~nd~'d, not just sine~'!

I became Minister of Social Services but even before, t:hat J.:.ht• amount of monr:~y people are receiving in l:.his ProvincE! fol " surv:iual on social assistance is certainly not adequate, nc~t only because c;f l:h1?. recent increase in fuel and electricity rates, i.t-. is just overa1l . We have reCE!nl:.ly s tar 'tE•d an overall review of Lhe DepartrnE!nt of SociaJ. ~)ei"UiCE!S and the amount of money pE!Ople are receiving in the Province. Certainly, that is one of the considerations we are looking at. Min. Speaker: for Fogo . ~L :...- .. ~Ln.. so-'= : SpE!aker·. The hon. t.he ME·rni :JE! I" Thank you , Mr.

The Minister · has a1ready indi-e ~atNI that social service reci~ients barely get enough to live on. Since the Minister's Depart.ment already takes overpayrnc,·nts from social service recipients, for sometimes their mistakes, and sometimes the 111istakes of social No . 92 Rl6

workers, will the Minister, for the winter months at least, consider to stop taking the overpayments from the social service recipients so at least they will be able to keep their homes warm this winter. Mr. Speaker: The hori. the Minister of Social Services. Mr. Efford: First of all let me correct the han. Member. u.Je do not normally take overpaym~::~nts IAJh~::~n there is a mistake made by the Department of Social Service.

They used to under the For·mer Minister, but we have begun looking at the overpayments which were on the books, and I think it is $9 million since the early 1960s, it is quite an extensive sum of money. IF a social worker makes a mistake in overpayment, we cannot expect the individual to pay back the money. So. we are taking a look at that now and we believe and agree that that policy should be corrected. As for the amount. of money involved in overpayments, in a lot of cases it is incurred by people through abuse, sometimes through necessity, as in paying a light bill.

But certainly u.Je are looking at the overall review of the social assistant recipients and l:he amounts of money they receive. But to giVE! you a definite ansu.Jer: are we going l:o do that thts month or next month? No - I cannot: do that until budgetary procedures come int:o play. Mr. Speaker: for Fogo . The han. the Member Mr. Winsor : A Final supplementary, Mr. Speaker . The social tJJorkE!rS in thr:' ProvincE! Ll'l Dec ernb~::~r 6. 1990 Vol XLI already have the authority to issue $60 either in a fuel allowance or an extra allowance.

Many of t:he social workers are refusing this allowance now, yet the Appeal Board upholds it. When the case is appealed. quite oFten the Appeal Board will rule in favour of the recipients. In view of this will the Minister now give instructions to social workers to issue all recipients the $60 ·in fuel oil allou.Jance for the t.~.Jintt:'r months? Some Han . Members: Hear, h~ar! Mr. Speaker: Th~::' han. thE! Minister of Social Services. Mr . Efford : Thank you, Mr . SpE!aker. First of all - Mr. Simms: Rudolph t:hE! f~E'd NOS(;! Reindeer. Mr. Efford: First of all. that is the pu1npose of thE!

AppE!als Boanl, whenever a person is not satisf'.i.E:'d wit h a d e c i s i o n o f a s o c i a 1 worker. the purpose of the Appeals Board is to give peoplr:! t:h1o! opportunity to appeal a decision that thE!Y ar'e not satisf 'i(:!d u.J:ith. I cannot tell all the social wo1nkers in the Province to rE!VE!lnsE:• a decision and to give evE•rybody that amount of money. We have 25,050 cases of social SE!lnuice as of the 30th of October. Every individual case is assessed on it's own merits and its own needs. - Some Hon. Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker : Order. pleas(:!! Mr. Efford: Mr.

SpC:'aker. u.Je haVE! a policy in place IAJhel"E! tAJhetnE!VE'l" there is need for an individual family to request: special fuel No. 92 1n 7

allowance, whether it is because of the amount of money or the high cost of fuel or their particular needs for that month, a social worker has the authority to give them a special fuel allowance up to $60, and I have no reason to change that. If the hon. Member can find a case ~here a social worker made the wrong decision he can make representation to the district manager, to the regional manager or to myself and we could have it corrected .

But the policy is in place and we wilJ. adherE! to that particular policy, and if they do not wish to do that, as many people do in the Province, they can go through the appeals board, Mr. Speaker. An Hon. Member: Scrooge! Some Han. Members : Oh, oh! An Hon. Member·: Answer the qut::~stion. Mr. Efford: How can you ansWl':!r' a question when there is interference from the other side? An Hon . Member: wood . (Inaudible) cut Mr. Speaker: The hon . the ME!mber for Port au Port . Mr.

Hodder: Monsieur le President: J' ai une question pour le premier minis tre: Combien est le coOt de notres lecons francaises pour les gen s de Terre-Neuve et du Labrador? Je demande de le premier ministre: Comoien? Combien? Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Premier. Premier Wells : If it were spoken- Ll8 Dec ember 6, 1990 Vol XLI Some Hon. Members : Oh, oh! Mr . Speaker: Order, please! Premier Wells: If it lAJ~:!lnE! spoken accurately, I have no doubt I would have understood it. Some Han. Members: Oh, oh!

Premier Wells : But rny cornpelE!nCE! in French has not ln~~ached t.hE! point where I can pick up the flaws in the hon. member's presentation. So I can't pick out precisely what I'll~! is saying. 13ut I have the gist of it, he is asking for the cost of the French lessons that have been taken and I will - An Hon. Member : What is t.he answer? Premier We lls: - undertake to obtain the answer and provide it. Mr. Speaker : Ordre, s'i1 vous p 1 a i t , i 1 n ' y a p a s . I IAI as abo u t to say that thetne iH'E! no I"Ul.E!S in our House that per'JI'l"it: lht' asking of questions in another lanC:JUatJ(:• .

But tA.Je have a1lotAJed the::' speakinq of Frr:~nch in thj.s House, and bE!in~J the bilingual peoplE! we are, I arn sure lAJe would perJJJ.i.t a ques lion. The difficulty is tAl~~ do not: have any translators. The hon. thE:~ PremiE!r' . Premier Wells: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I am It. 1i.t.l:le bit reluctant to attempt to suggest that You1n Honour 1 s COirll'nE!n'l may not be totally accurate. Bu ·l rny recollection is l:.hat. in 1~)68 this Hou ·sE• passE•d a J"esolution providing for the use of French in the Legislature. Specifical1y authorizing and making the House bilingual.

The Ptnovince iLself is not totally bilingual but it . is No. 92 Rl8

totally in order to speak in t~e House and French to Lally appropriate (inaudible). Mr. Speaker: I thank the Premier. The han. the Opposition Leader. Mr. Simms: Mr. point d 'ordre, or· Speaker, something that. House a la 1 ikE! Mr. Speaker, in fact the Premier is quite cor1nect. I remember when I was in the Chair as Sp~:!aker, the former Member for Eagle Riuer used to ask periodic questions of the former Minister of Education and Mr. Ottenheimer, at the time, who was also uery fluent.

So, at the risk of losing a minute in Question Period, speaking to the point of order, I thought •I would make the point and agree. Mr . Speaker: fhe han. the Member for Port au Port . Mr. Hodder: Mr . Speaker, a supplementary to the Premier . In these times of seuere fiscal restraint. can the Premier justify to the people of the Province this E!Xpenditure of taxpayers' money on priuate French tutoring? Particularly, Min. Speaker, lAJhE~n after· six months- I rnust say he understood t.uhat I said to hirn but he cannot answer a question which was put to him in French.

He did understand it but did not or chose not to answer it. Mr. Speaker: The han. the Premier. Premier Wells: Let me deal tAli l~h the last part of it first, Mr. S pea k e r . I h au ~~ a d i s p o s i t. i on to be precise and to giue answers precisely. [f I atternpl:od to Ll9 Decurnbc!r 6, 1990 Vo1 XLI answer that in French I could not be confidE!nt that l~hE• anst.Ueln wou1.cl be precise. I km!W what thE! hon. Member asked and I am rE!asonab1.y pleased that I hauE' progressed that far to date, bearing in mind the other burdens that I haue. Now with respect to the justification for it, Mr.

Speaker, the basis on which it was undertaken - and I should tell the l~ouse, Min. Speaker, that the Intergovernmental Affairs Sec1neta1niat has bE!en lAJOinking with the Department of Education ~awards putting in place a programme to teach a handful of the senior ciuil seruants who haue to deal tAli th Qut~bec and deal tAr.i l~h people in the Federal Gouernment who speak French - we want to haue in place at least a handful of people in IGA and in the Premier's office who are competent in French.

As a matter of Fact lAJhE!n lAJE• h:ii"E:·cl l~he receptionist r~oJ" tny ·office to rE!place thE! lnE!CE!plioni .~> l that lAli o\S there, we specific<'dly sought a bilingual receptionist so that. thr:• incoming calls in Fr,:-nch l:.o 1ny office could be answered in French. Now there is a reason why I arn doing it - An Han. Member : (InaudiblE!). Premier Wells : Quttr;; a numbE•i" a~; a matter of fact. An Han. Member: (Inaudible). Premier We1J.s: Yes. · -A n H o n . ME:' rn b e r : H u n d In E! d s ? P r ern i e r We 11 s : We 11 , I lAin u1 cl n o l~ say hundreds but quite a numb~r. An Han. Member: (Inaudible).

Premier We11s : M r . 5 pea k E· r , a s l~ o No . 9 2 r~ 19

why I undertook to do it: I started this last winter and thE! reason for it is fairly simple. Where I have to attend meetings on a constant: basis, I frankly do not feel competent to deal with the issues and feel incompetent to deal tAli th the thing totally wh€~lnE:' much of the discussion is in the French language, and I feel that I should make myself competent to do so. And secondly, Min.

Speaker, if the Government of Newfoundland "is going to formally take a pas i tion that the development and expansion of b:ilingLJalisrn in the country is the rtght course for us to follow, I ought not to be so hypocritical as not to 1nake the effoJnt myself, and that is the reason for it. Some Hon. Members : Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker: The hon. thE:' Member for Port au Port. Mr. Hodder: Mr. Speakl'?.r, a final supplementary. Min. SpeakeJn, the question is why can 1 t the Premier pay for it himse1f? Mr. Speaker, I repreSE!nt a French district, and I have a FrE!nch nE!lJJspapE!r.

I have l:.o make:• do without translation services and I would ask the Premier why does he not pay .For hi s own f1nench lessons? And I wonder, Mr. Speaker, maybe this is his long-range plan to enter Federal politics, and does he JnE:'ally think it is appropriate that thE! people of the Province subsidiza this effoJnt? An Hon. Member: (Inaudible) . Mr. Speaker: Or'dE!r, please! The hon . the Premier . Premier not pay Wells: For Mr .

Speaker, it myself for I cJ o one I 20 Decumb'"~r 6, 1<)')0 Vol XLI simple reason: 'it is b1:-ing done as part of my duty as Pr'E!m".ier, and that is the basts on which it is bE!ing done. Secondly, I haVE! cut out, as Ptnernier, a tJasL quantity of expenses that the former administration just pil ed one on top of the othc:~l", as E!ach of thE:' mernbetns 'opposite went down l.:o the private dining roorn and atE! lunch at public expense and drank drinks at public E•xp€~nse and so on -· a].l of that has been cut out, Min. Speaker.

And if hon . rnmnbE!rS tJJant to knotJ.J, I will gE!t UlE! dE>l:.aiJ.~:~d information and providE• it l.:o thE! House and demons Lr·al:e VE!ry clear·ly just lAJhat . has bE·en done. Not.~J, I cannot possibly pay Fo1n eVE!rything that I do because I do not havE:~ adequate income Lo do it . I have E!liminatE•d living in a Covernment. paid hou se. B ... Q.__ H o n....: ____ t']_§_J!l .. l?~ _ _r.:-_ : N o t t o t a 11 y .

Premier' Wells : Well. not totally, ·s·u ·t-·- I-b a s"ic -a 11 y . pIn 0 Vide I'Tl y Ol~JI'l house For entertain111ent and 1ny OLu n house is used for that purpose instead of having a private dining room fotn the PrerniE!r and a hou se paid For by the CoVE!rnlllt:'nL of this PtnovinCE!. NotAl, Min. ~)peakE!I", that·:. petty picayune qut:'St .ion is hardly JAJOlnt.hy of any rnor 'E! at.l~E·nt:i.on than I have given 'it. An Han . Member : In your view. Some Hon . Members: ( Inaudibl,~) . Mr . Speaker : or·cler, pledse! Order, p1ease! Mr . Warren: Mr. Speaker . Mr.

SpE!aker: The hon . the Mernbel" For Torngat Mountains. M r . W a 1n r en .: M I" . S p E:' a k e I" , I h a v (~ a supplt:~mentary l:.o the Premier. K nouli ng that. the Cove I" rHriE! n t is No. 92 1~20

paying his lE!Ssons in french and knowing that my district, above any other district in this Province, is sevE!nty per cE.~nt native, both Inuit and Innu, I wonder would the Premier consider asking the Government to give me the opportunity of finances also to learn their language? Mr. Speaker: The han. the Premier. Some Hon. Members: (Inaudible) . Mr. Speaker: Order, please! Premier Wells: TherE! are certain hopeless causes into which tAle should never put any money, Mr. Speaker. I do not have any concern that the han. member needs to learn Inuktitut to service his district.

I spent a couple of days last weekend in the han. member 1 s district. Unfortunately, due to weather conditions the hon. member, who was I know sincerely trying to get there, tAJas unable to make it and I gavE• his apoJ.ogies to his constitUE!nts and t.old them he had been trying to get there but got stuck in Goose Bay. Mr. Speaker, I had no difficulty whatsoever communicating with the Innu and with thE! Labradotn Innuit Association. There is a terriFic translator, a most impressive man, Augie Andersen, who does an incrE!dible job.

Hr:' is a marVE!l to watch, and there are others who participcttE• in t.hi.s as tAJell. I doubt very much i:hat it can be justified, but if a good case could be rne1de for it., I hav~C' no doubt that Government would take a look at it. Mr . Speaker : rhe han . the Member for Harbour Main. Mr. Doyl€~ : Thank you, Speaker. I have a question the Minister of Employment Mln, for and 1.21 DeCI:!Inbr::~r 6, 1.990 Vol XLI Labour Relations as it relatE!S to Bill C-21, the new Unemployment Insutnance B·il .1. Bill C-·21 a11ouJs for up to twenty-five weeks of parental leave.

Our Labour Standards Act provides for fifteen W~C~eks of parental 1t::~ave. Now obviously in order for peoplt') in this ProvinCE! to avail of thE! benefits under C-21 which is twenty-five weeks of parental leave, it will be necessary For the Province to at'l'lE!nd 'its l..abou1n Standards Act. Does the Mints Ler intend to bring in such a bill? Mr. Speaker : The MinistE.H' oF Ernployment r~elations. hon . the and Labour Ms Cowan : Thank you, Mtn . Speaker. My Department. is looking at that parti.cuJ.ar aspr;;!ct at Lh:is moment. WhethE!In or nol~. tAle tArill bring in an arnendrnNtt, time tAJi.ll tell.

We have to considE!r, as tAll?. did for the minimum wage and other changE!S we are hoping to bring in regarding laboutn s t.anda1nds, the econo1nic impact it tAli 1.1 haVt'! in the ProvinCE!. So lAJ~C' have to balance the needs of our individuals in thr:' Province, the needs of Lhe employers, and the economic environment. We are indeed, l~.o thE• MernbE!l~ For Harbour Main, Mt". SpeakE•r, looking at it. Whether or not I wi.l.l be br'inging an arnendmE:'nt to the Housr::• 1nernains to be seen. Mr. Speaker: rhe hon. Ute Member for Harbour Main . Mln. DoylE!: Mr.

Speakr :'r , I have:• to say to l~he Ministl::'r l~hat thE! answer bore no relationship whatever l~o l~he question l asked. NotAl, I arn going to ask her' again. I would not ask the question in FlnE!nch, bt:~cause she! .i.s hav:in~J pro b 1 E:' tn s tAli L h 1n y Eng 1 ish . A g a in , let me just make it perfectly No. 92 I~ 2 1

clear. Now we have a bill that recently passed called Bill C-21, and in that bill pt:'ople can receive twenty-five weeks of parental leave. Under our cul~rent Labor Standards Act we get Fifteen weeks of parental leave. I checked tAJith the Legislative Counsel and it is necessary to bring in an amendment to our Labour Standards Act in order to qualify For that ttAJenty-five weeks of parE!ntaJ. leave. It is getting late, and if tJJe do not bring in an amendment to th e Labqur Standards Act people will not be able to avail of the benefits under C-21.

I am just wondering if the Minister is going to bring in a biJ.l which will give effect to an amendment to thE! Labour Standards Act so that people can qualify under C-21? Mr . Speaker: rhe Minister of EmploymE!nt Relations. han. and the Labour Ms Cowan: If he had read the paper a fE!W tJJeE~ks ago, and I unders toad the Opposition got all their questions from the paper, he wou1d have read my answe:'r, which would have saved sornP tilTH; ! today, and he could have gone on to sornr::'thing else. Th:is GoVE!rnrnent dor:!S not haVE! to change that particular regulation unless it sees fit.

Severa1 provincia1 governments in Canada have alrr: !a dy decidE•d that they IAii 11 no t change i. L to mi r 1n or- ~ that pa,~ticular fedr:!ral bill. So it is up to us then, Mr. Speaker. I am not going to repeal: lAJhat I said First. An Han. Member : (Inaudible) . Ms Cowan: Because I IAJi:IS corlnE!Ct ··--·-· ··-·--·· -···--·- th(;! first ti111e. L22 Dr:!cernber' 6, 1990 Vo1 XLI Mr. Speaker: expit' ad. Question PE!riod has Mr. Simms: On a point of ordE•r, Mr . Speaker. Mr. Speaker : The han . the Opposil:ion House Leader, on a point of ordE!r. Mr . Simrns : YE!S, Ml". Speake;!!" .

Just to pursue an earlier exchange With rE!Spect to thE! HOUSE' shOIAJing some expression with respect to the CBC - Premier Wells : (Inaudib1e) . Mr. Sirnrns: Well, I am using thE'! point of ordE!I~ to raisl:! it. We have often dOnE! that, I say to the Premier, unless he is violently opposed to that method.

It is one that has been in practice for years. 13ut sine~;! we discuss1:'d it earlior and had a J.ittle exchange about it, talking about an expression from this House of Assembly, hopefuJ.ly a unanimous expression from the House of Asse mbly to exprE!SS ou1~ concE•inns about: Lhe CI3C situation which we discuss0d earlir::~r in the sl:at:ements, IAJould the Government House Leader consider - I kno~ he perhaps might havE· sorne difficull~y tAJ:i.th so1nf' of .. the lAJords or something in LhE! resolution that is on the Order P a p e r , p .l a c e d y e s t e r' d a y b y l:. 11 E! Member For' Port au Port.

"lo e1iminat:e and to avoid l·:hal: and to rnakr:• it fairly sin1pi(• and straightforward, rather than quibble or argue over words in Whereases and sl:uH ' like that , lAJould the GovE·rnrnE•nl Hou se LE!i:H~er consider, in oJ~dr::'r \:hal:. IAJE! can (jet on with the mattE•r and cleaJ. tJJ:iLh -jt- in a si1nple fashion t:omorr·ow morning or something, dea1 with perh~ps referring to the No. 92 r\2 2

resolution ~resented yesterday by the ME!rnber for Port au Port, el:i .rninating the Whereases, and just deal with the rE!S olvr:1d parts so that all we would be asked to debate in this House would be the following, as an expression from this House: Be it rE!Solved that this House call ·upon the Federal Government to insure that the necessary funding is provided to retain the present level of television and radio services and programming in Newfoundland and Labr·ador? Nothing could bE! s irnpler. In my view, nothing could be simpler. In the past we .have done it on other issues without even debate.

So all I arn asking is could WE! agree to debate tomorrow morning, one speaker for five minutes each or something on that particular issue, so that we as a House can express our views on this matter. Mr . Speaker: The hon. the ·Premier . Premier Wells: Mr . Speaker, this is not a point 6f order. The ordinary business of the House is being interfered with, and I object to it .. ro begin with, we disagree the han. Mernber 1 s resolution tJJe are not prepared to deal it on that basis. Some Han. Members: Oh. oh! with and !Alit h Premier Wells: We disagree with the han. Mr::~rnber 1 s resolution.

M-s Verge: What is tJJrong tAJith i.t? Pre m i e r We 11 s : W h a l: i s w r o n g tAli t h it is that it does not dE!al tAJit.h the issue and it distorts the whole thing. We have a great understanding of the concern of the Federal Government to limit 1_23 December 6, 1.990 Vol XU its expenditures and live within· its means and restrain it s budgetary expenditures. We are disgusted with the offensive and callous way in which the CBC implemented those changes. Ms Verge : What (inaudible) . Mr. Speaker: Order, ph~ase! Premier Wells : If the hon. will restrain herself, she learn something. Some Han.

Members : Oh, oh! . rnemb1:'r rrright Premier Wells: Mr . SpeakE!r, WE! do not accept the resolution as it is worded. The Minister expressed our concern about the ca1lous <:'lnd irnpropE!r JTI<H1neln in which thE:! CBC approached it and, as t;.Jas suggested E!arliE!r, if l:he hon. Opposition House Leader wants to speak with the Government House Leader, do it. rhis is not the tirne to do it, and thE!rE! is no point of order. Mr. Speaker : Order, please!

I want to point out to hon. members that this matter, a1though a point of order can be raised at any time quite obviously, it t;.Jou1d be more appropriately done when we have gonE! down through thE• On.1E!r of Business and carne to the OrdE!rS of the Day. The hon. the Opposition Housr:' Leader indicatE!d, I th irfl<, that he wan tE!d to s pE:'ak again. The Chail" wants to qet this OlJE!r as quickly as possible. The Chair· tAJas of the understanding that we had agreed to mE•et and come up tAJ:il::h a resolution a little latt>r, and we do not tAJant to delay the HousE· any further.

TherA is certainly no point of order, and I hauE• No. 92 1~2 3

listened to presentations from both sides. If the hon. Opposition House Leader insists, I will hear one more comment. Mr. Simms: No, no, Mr. Speaker, I do not wish to argue or anything of that nature. I just want to make sure ·that we understand that in this Legislature it has often been a practice in the past often - when Oppositions fre:~quently will get up and raise matters using the guise of a point of order, and that has bE! en quite acceptable. We have done it before on resolutions dealing with the seal hunt and ot:her matters.

We tried to do it befotne, I think, and the mE!mber opposite could not get a seconder for the one he wanted done. But we have often done that. So I do not think the Premier's comment s are appropriat ·e at all. I mean, it has been acceptable. Now all I am saying· to the Premier and to the Government is are you preparE!d to dE!al with a simple resolution that calls on the Federal Government to reinstate their funding to allow the programming and services that exist now to continue? I mean, you cannot get much simpl1~r than that.

Now iF you tJJant to quibble tAiith wor·ds, and if you want. to attack the Federal Government and stuff of that nature, thE!n tAJe are more interested in dealing with what was done not how it was done, as thE! PrEHnier just tr::i.ed to (inaudible). Premier Wells: Again, Mr. Speaker, it is not a point of ordetn. We agreed bE!fore the House opE!ned to haVE! the ttJJo House Leaders work out an agrr'eable resolution. Obviously the Opposition want to do a little bit of grandstanding. They have now L 21~ DeCE!ITlber 6, 1 'J'JO Vol XLI done their grandstanding . Some Han . Members: Oh, oh! Premier Wells : Mr.

Speaker, the Government of this Province will not tell the Government of Canada that it cannot reduce i.ts expend:iture. Some Han. Members: SharnE~ on you I Shame on you! Shame! Shame! Premier Wells: We lAiill not tell thE~· -Ga -VE!rn~nr::~ ·ii-:-t of Canada. M r . Simms : You h a v E~ no t ~~ o t U1 E! guts. You are backing off. That is all that is wrong with you . Premier Wells : But 1.1.1hat tAle tJJ:i.11 b-:!11 the Government of Canada, M.r. SpeakE:r, is that WE~ Find abhor·renL the method they used to do it . We disagree with where they are putting the cuts. WE! hav(,: no quatnrE!l tAli th doing that .

But t.~.JE:~ tAJill not be pushed into l:his kind of a corner by thE:' kind or grandstanding that the Opposition is going through now . having spoken to thlc~ House befol~e str·anqE!rS WE!lne admitted and agrE!!::'d on the manner in which :it would be dealt tAJ.ith, and tJJe would agreE: l:o work out a resolution, now they want to go through their g rand s tan d i n g and , M r . S pea k e r , lAI t::• have no intention of being so silly as to fall for that k:ind of' nonsense . Mr . Simms : On a poinL of privilege . Mr. Speaker: Orde1n, pJ.ease!

The Chair has been trying to rnove t.o expedite !'.he Order of Business. We ha ve ruled thaL there i~ ~ no point Clf order. The han. Opposition House Leader now No. 92 R24-

wants to- · address a point of privilege. Mr. Simms: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I i~ia.nt _____ to-- address a point of privilege dealing with the accusation and innuendo cast a few moments ago by the Premier in his remarks. And I rc::'sent the suggestions he is making, that we are grandstanding over an issue as important as this. I resent that. And this Government has shown many, many timE:'S in recE:'nt weeks that if you ask a ques ·tion you are either fearmongering or you are s caremongering or now you are grandstanding. Mr.

Speaker, does not the Premier real:izr:! that this is an important issue and he is the one (inaudible). Some Han. Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Simms: Mr. Speaker, we are not interested in grandstanding or feannongering or· scaremongering. wr:~ aJ~e asking the PremiE!r to simply agree to vote on a resolution tA.Jh:ich ca1ls on Lhe Federal Govc::'rnment to pi~oviciE! the funding to al1ow services to remain in place that now exist. N ow :i f y o u d o n o t a g 1~ BE:~ tAri t h i t , well, then, bE! rnan E!nough to get up and say you do not agree tA.Jil:h it. Don't talk al1 the way around it, as you usually do. Mr.

Speaker: The hon. the Premier. Premier Wells: Mr. Speaker, to that point of privilege I say -without hesitation that the actions are grandstanding. An Han. Member: You are wrong. Premier We1ls: Because, Mr. Spc::~aker, we sat in this HouSE! before Your Honour admitted strangE!I"S and aqJ"e~~d as to holAJ it. tA.Jould be done. L2 1) DeCf:'!ITii:JeJ~ 6, :1.990 Vol XU <: - Now what the han.

Members opposite want to do is to try and put Lhe Government in the embarrassing position of voting on a resolution asking for the reinstatement of those expenditures, so t.hen they can turn around and say l"Ed.ns tt-lte a11 possiblE:~ expendituJ~es in Health and Education and Transportation and anywhere else! Some Han. Mernbe J~s : You arE:! wJ~ong. You aJ~e lAJJ~ong. Premier Wells: NolAJ, MIA. SpE!akeJ", I do not knotAJ tA.Jhether they think we are as stupid - Some Hon . Members : Yes, you are .

Premier Wells: - as thE!Y may be or what, but we haVE! no intE!ntion of attempting to Le11 the Government of Canada how to rnanage theil" budgetary pi"ob1ems. What. lAJr::• tAJi.ll say to tht:' GoVE!r'rllnenl: of Canada is tAJe ar·r::· d:isqustE!cl by LI-H~ callous mannE:~r in lAJhich Lht'Y put these reductions into place and, Mr. Speaker, lAJe clisa<::JI'··r::!e lAJ:i Lh their reducing expenditures on regiona1 proqraJIJJning and preserving totally without reduction the national expenditures. That is what we disagree with.

And we have no inl:ention of a1J.otA.Jinq Lhi.s ldncl of grandstanding against Lhe arJ"anqernent l:hat lAJas rnaclr:•, l:o have this kind of granclst.ancling contr·a1~y to Lhr:' aq\A!o•ern~:•n t: that lAJas entered into before LhE! clooJ~s tA.JeJ~e opened, Ml". Speake!~, to allotJJ ME:' J'n b e r s o p p o s :i t e t o g r· a n cl s t. d n d i n this tAJay. Mr. Simms: A mas tC'I~ or· i.11us:ion you are, boy. M1~. SpeakeJ~ : 0J"clel", pl1::!dSE:'! OrdeJ~, please! r here tAJa s no poi n t oF pI" i v .i.l e <~ e . No. 9 2 1~2 1 1

Th~ hon. Members I think are aware that the Premier used the word 'grandstanding' and it is not even ruled to be unparliamentary in the s e n s e t h a t i t was u s e d . So t h E:1 r e is no point of privilege . Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees Mr. Speake1n: The hon. the Member for Ca1nbonear . Mr. Reid: Mr . Speaker, I have the great pleasure today to present to the House a r't::'port of the Social LE:1gislat.ion Review Committee on the draft bill, "An Act Respecting Chiropractors." Also, Mr .

Speaker, I l.-Jould like to report to the House that the Legislation Review ~ommittee unanimously supports this particular report, and I would like to thank the hon. the Member from Humber East, my Vice--Chair; the Member fi"OITI Bur-in - Placentia West - An Han . Member: buddy . (Inaudible) bosom Mr'. Reid: I arn not. going to go !":hat Far, Mr. Speaker ·- the Mernber for Harbour Grace and the ME!mbeJn For ~3t. George"s. Also, Mr. Speaker, I have to mention here Miss Elizabeth Murphy's dedicated work in the long hours we put into this particular bill - Some Han . Members: Hear, hear! Mr.

Reid : - and also the co-operation l.-Je received from the Minis tt~ln' s s t.aFF as t.ue ll as from the Minister himself. I would just likE! to say, Mr . Speaker, that if this HousE:• could - I know I might be ruled out of order here, but I am going to say it anyt.-Jay gE•t alonq as t.uc::o.I.l as my L26 DE•cr:Hnbei" 6, 1990 Vol XLI ·~ - ~ Committee gets along, we would not have to put up wt t. h the nons E! n s e WE:1 do on a 1negular basts. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Answers to Questions for which Notice has been Given Mr. Speaker: The han . the Premier. Premier Wells: Mr .

Speai<E!r, I have a couple of answers I want to give today. One is a question asked on October 18 by the hon. Member for Mount Pearl - there are two questions really. He asked, how much has been spent to date by the Economic Recovery Commission? Well, I t.-lill tablE! thE! anst.-JE!r l~o that now, and just refer to two amounts. But I will table the detail. I will not read that out. For the YE:'ar endE:1d Mar-ch 31, 1990 there lAJas budgeh'd $3 mtllion and was spent, $1,062,331. For the yt:'ar l:!nded March 31, 1.9()1 l~hE!re was buclgetE!d $2,833,750 ancl up Lo November 30, 1990 we spent $ J. , 2 2 1 , 4.0 8 .

Now all of the o t h e r details of the expenditu1ne on the loans and so on, that is al.l lhr:'l"e as well. Now, Mr. Speaker, l:h1:> second question was, what accornplishmc:•nts have there been that would have not: have takE:'Il place at any 1nate? rhe hon. Mernbeln lAJaS talk :ing about jobs and Lt..Jhat jobs had been cr'eatE:'d that t.uould nol~ have taken place anyway. Now that is what took the time, Mr . Spl'!akc:'r, l':o r.3wt the anslAJE!In. BecausE• l.-JhE:!n Lhey came back, l~he fiJ~st an slAJeln Lhey gave rne four or five weeks ago wa s over 2,000 jobs .

I said, now I want to rnake sure thdl:. ev EH' \1 onr~ of l:hose jobs is al":.l:r'ibuti:lblc.:• to LhE! EI~C and t.uou1d nol': havE :! takE:•n place merely by the noJ"Inal routine No. 92 r~ 26

work of the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation. So I sent it back and I said, make sure you pare it down to the absolute bone. And I am happy, Min. Speaker, to table the detail, but I IAiill not rt,~ad it out. Just to summarize the detail there is attributable to the ERC a total of 1,531 jobs. That is made up, Mr. Speaker, of 4-70 totally new jobs and 1,065 jobs that would have been gon~':'! if l:he ERC had not interceclc~d. For example, I can think of 3 50 jobs tha ·t were gone, but through the intercession of the ERC they got them back again. All of the details are there. So, Mr.

Speaker, that is 4'70 new jobs that did not exist before. And of those '~70, Mr. Speakt,~r, 338 were full-time jobs, year-round jobs, and 132 were part-time jobs. NatAl, Mr. Speaker, that is only the beginning. Let me tell han. Members some more good news. Assuming that things go as ·they are expected between now and December 31 1990, tAle JAJill be able to announce another 176 new jobs that were not there before ·- I am sorry, Mr. Speaker, anothe1n 24.0. Of the jobs ·that have allnf~ady be<,~n crE!ated, if the work conl:inues as was projected, there will be a Further 176 jobs created. NoJAJ, Mr.

Speaker, there is a] so in process work - some may be realized and some rnay nol - that should. if things war k out reasonably well, produce relatively shortly another 834- jobs. Now, Min. Speaker, one can readily see that within a very short tirne, within its First effective yea1n of operation, the Ef~C has produCE!d ·ten times as many jobs as the Sprung GrE:'enhouse would have produced if it 1_27 DecrHnbPr 6, :1.990 Vol XLI succeeded, and so far, Mr. Speaker, the EI~C has cost $2 million. NotAl, Mr. Speaker. by comparison with their effort, we have produced ten ti1nf~S as many jobs for one-tenth of the cost.

That is what I call performance. Now, Mr. Speaker, I am happy to submit the dE~tail of that and ·the detailed numbers and an ass~"!ssrn~:·nt of it. I should also point out, Mr. Speaker, thai:. in addition to those there were sevPral hundred other jobs created through the efforts of the NLDC into which the ERC only had a peripheral input 6r not a substantial input. That, Mr . Speaker, answers that particular question. Some Han. Members : Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker : OlndE:'I'', plr::!ase I Order, please! Premier Wells : They clo not 1:i.kf:! that, Mr. Speaker. Some Han. Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Ordur, p1ea~;e!

Or•de1n, please! Premie1n Wells: NotAl, Ml" . SpeakE! I", thPre are two questions on the Order Paper t~at I havE:' to answer, one of IAJhich is thE! na1nes oF a.ll persons employed contractually or as regular Government E!rnp1oyees by the Office of thE• Pt'E!tniE!I~, the sal.ary, a br·ieF descr·i1Jt.ion of L.he duties of thE:' above, and tAJhe !:.hE:! I" or· not any Gover·nniE!nt vehicle 01~ vehicle al1oJAJance is avai1able to any person. I am tabling, Mr .

Speaker, a 1ts t of E:'VE:'rybody, inc1uding mys E:df, and the salaries paid to eve rybody, with a dPscription of a11 the individuals. i'lnd I wou1d point out, Mr. Speaker', t.hat all . No. l)2 I~ 2 'I

are p o 1 it i c a 1 s t. a f f . The r e ar-e no regular Government employec:1s as such, although one of them was the Registrar; l:he Filing Registrar was there when we took over the office. She remains ther·e, but I am told that she is still a political appointee and not a regular Government employee. One lady is a temporary replacement for a secretary who is on maternity leave. · A vehicle allowance of $80 per month is pl~ovided to Edward Joyce, who is the ·Executive Assistant in Corner Brook who uses his own automobile for Governmental purposes and it is best to account for it on that basis.

That is the lowest cost the Government can obtain. We are having a look, Mr. Spr.:'aker, at tAJhen we get some of those cars turned in, and we might assign a car to Corner Brook for· use when I am in Corner Brook. The St. John's office has the use of a four-wheel drive vehicle, the ChE!VY Blazer that usE•d to be used by thE! fanner Premier in addition to his regular chauffeured car. That is assigned to the Executive Council. This vehicle is not used by the Premier's office exclusively, but is available to the Executive Council as is l~equired.

The total complement of the staff stands at ttJ.Jenty, cornpcuned, Min. Speaker. to twenty-six in the 1988-1989 year - si_.x less than the for·mer Pre1nier had. And, Mr. Speakc:1r, in total sa1ary cost, our total salary cost for this current year is $74.7, 767 compared tJ.d t.h $875,000 t.I;.JO YE'!ars ago, with the increases that there haVE! been in t.he meantime. So tAle have savl::.cl a S1tneat deal of' rnonE!Y, Min. SpE!aker, rnore t·:han r.:'nouqh Lo pay for French lessons, I can tell you that . 1..28 Dr:!cember 6, 1990 Vo1 XLI Petitions Mr. Speaker: The hon. t:he Member for Humber East . Ms Verge: Mr.

Speaker, present a petition I wish to of 3,800 students of Memorial - Mr. Gilbert: Mr. SpE!akeln, I have an Answer to a Question which tAJas asked by the hon. the Member for' Kilbride. Mr. Tobin: We just passed it. Mr. Speaker: Order, please! We have come to Petit.ions, un1r::~ss han. Members agree to go back? Some Hon . Members: leave! By Jeavr.:1! By Mr. Speaker: AgreE:~d. By 1eave . Mln. Simms: As long as you ar 'e no l nasty or provocative. Mr. Speaker: The Minister, under Questions For Which been Given. han. Answers Notice thE• t:o has Mln. Gilbert: to Que- s t ions nasty and as to, can I?

I arn under Ansu.ter·s now and I <>Hl be as provocative as I want An Hon . M~:1mber: Speaker. No leave . Some Han. Members: Mr. Speaker: 01ncler, p1ease! I want to try No Jeave, Ml". Oh. oh! Order, p1ease! and br'in~J S Oll'lt! orderliness l:.o l~he HOUS(' and l Jny and gi Vl2' it t. hE! diqnity and the respect i ~~ clese1nves. I IAri 11 ask again, has lE!ClV e been gr 'antecl to No. 92 1~2 8

- ~ revert to Answers to Questions for which Notice has been Given? Some Han. Members: Mr. Speaker: Yes. Minister of Works, Transportation . Agreed. rhe han. Services the and Mr. Gilbert: Yesterday, Mr. Speaker, the Member for Kilbride asked a question concerning road conditions between Donovans and Holyrood over the weekend, so I am going to give him the report that was given to me this morning . Fr·iday November 30. The weather conditions were rain, freezing rain, and then snow. The Operations Supervisor called the crews at 8:00 p.m.

Two tandem truck plot.us equipped uJith iCE! conttnol worked from 8:00 p.m. to 11:00 p.m. They made one run with the plow and ice control east and west of Foxtrap, opened up one lane in each direction. Saturday December 1. Men and equipment started wotnking at 5:00 a.m. and worked eleven hours. until fl.: 00 p. rn. The plotAJ lAJorking between Foxtrap and Holyrood intersections made one run and was down for repairs for three hours. After the repairs were completed i.t made l~wo runs along that sect.ion. The main problem on Saturday was that the snow had packed on the highway and was hard to remove.

Sa1t lAJas usl=!d to remoVE! the packed snow, how<0UE·r. and this l!.Jas only accomplished in sections. Sunday Dro'Cernber 2. The tE:'mpera t·:u re ranged from ·-3 to ~-3 with no pr·ecipitation. A gr·ader and tandem truck plot.~.J tJJorkE:~d fr"om 8:00 a.m. Sunday until noon c1earing off the remaining hard packed snow between Foxtrap and I 29 [)(:'Cii:'rnbern 6, 1.990 Vol XLI Holyrood. Again, an example of scaremongering on the part of those people over there. An Han. Member: (Inaudible) garbage. I went over it three times the weekend and (inaudible). Mr. Speaker : Ord(:~r. plt:!ase! Order, please!

Petitions. rhe hon. LhE! M~;:~rnber for Humbt:!ln East. Ms Ve1nqe: Thank you, Ml". Speaker. As I t.~.Jas saying. I tAlish to present a petition of 3,800 student.s of Memor·ial UnivE•rsi Ly of Newfoundland. That is 3, 800. Mr". Speaker. I wi11 read the petition: rhe Council of the StudE!I1 tIs Unton and members of the Memorial University community protest the impending financial cutbacks to Memorial University. These proposed cutbacks w:i.l:l result in: reduced staff leve1s, increased tuition and usE•I" Fees, and curtailed enrollment.

We, the undersigned, request that Lhe Provincial GouernrnE!nt reconsider thEdr proposals to impose any financial constraJnt.s on LhE! operating budget of Memorial Uniuers:i. ty. As I said, Mr. Speakt::•r, l:his petition has bE=!E:·n s:ign,,,c1 by 3,800 student:s and -pE!dw.ps some faculty and s l:aFf of ME•rnornia1 UniUE!Ins:ity. rhE! phrase in l:h(! intrnoducl:.ion to the pE!tition is lll(:'rnbers of a Memorial University co1nrnunil~y. Mrn.

SpeakE:'r, I and my col1eagues in the Opposition wish to associate ournselvc-:-s w.ith the call of the Memorial University cornrnunity for· thE:! univer"sity to be spared from l:he proposed pr"ovincial Gouernnrne'nl cutbacks :in funding. No. 92 IU~)

""' ·- ~ Mr. Speaker, university education is linked closely with economic performance. Indeed, the connection between education level and human ingenuity with pl~oduct.ivi ty and econo1nic growth is becoming greater and greater. If we look around the world at nations that have geographic similarities to our own, and to our Province in particular, we can see examples of superior perfot~mance and productivity which sec='m to be based largely on their superior literacy levels and education attainment. Iceland is an example.

Iceland is an island nation of half th~::~ population of Newfoundland and Labrador, with an economy based mainly on fish. Iceland has fuJ.l employmE:~nt and has one of the tAJorld 1 s highest national per capita standards of living. Iceland also has one of the tAJOI~ld 1 s highest education l~ates and. obviously. there is linkage. Economists have indicated that the economy of thE.~ western t.uor1d LIJill become less and less clepend<,~nt on natural resource development and become more reliant on what are called information industries, which obviously involve human brain pot.uer and ingenuity.

And to equip Newfoundlanders and Labradorians to pursue economic opportunities of the future. there has to be better university education, madE! motn(,~ available to residents of every part of the Province, and funding to support univet~si.l::.y progr·arns has l::.o be increasr:~d. For Memorial Universil~y simply to carry forward its present level of ptnograrnmin~J and St:!rvicE:~s. there has to be a budget increase. because thE!rE:' arE:! certa'.i.n bu:i.IL-in costs and inflationary Factors that are inevitable, but l::.he L3 0 Dc>ce1nber 6, 1990 Vol XU pl"esent leve1 of programs and servicc~s is not adequate.

The present participation ratE! is not grc::~at enough and, thE!refore, i:he Government has to provide extra funding. So, Mr. SpE:'aker, in addition to agreeing with the call of the university community to be spared the proposed cutbacks, w0 in the Opposition t.uould urge the Government to increase the level of funding. I note that the Government has rnade promises to expand un:ivr:•r'sity facilil::.ir:~s and plnogr·arnrning, not. only at thE:' main St.

John 1 s campus, but at l::.he Sir Wilfred Gt"enfell CollE!ge carnpus in CcH'\1(:'1" Btnook, the Govet"nmenl~ has gonE! on record as advocating an expansion of the Grenfell College programming to full undergraduate degrees in art:s and scit:Hlcc~s. tAJ'.il::.h majors in several subject areas. Now, ir·- that expansior1 is l:o cotnE• to pass, according to a report done by a university cotnmit.tee headed by Dl". Michael ::->t.avely. there will have l::.o be approximately $25 million devoted to buildings and FacilitiE!S on l:he Corner Brook campus. Again, Mr.

SpeakE!In, \..\Je in the Opposition str-ongly aqJ"ee tAli.th l·:hc? P"=~ l::.i lion of' Lhe MentOI"ial Uniuersi l~y cornmun:i l::.y. proll:!stinq the proposed provincial Covc:•rnmE:'rlt Financing cutbacks. and point oul. the severe damage that will result iF the pr'oposals bE!COine rt:'a-l:Lty in the Spring Budget . I might add that I. personally, believe l::.hal::. l:he Government proposals are part or a psychological political campaign - Mr . Speaker : Order, p1c:'ase! Ol"ci E:' r. p 1 ease ! The hon. Member's time is up . No. 92 IDO

·Ms Verge: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . 0 0 0 An Han. Member: Mr. Speakeln, may we revert to petitions? Mr. Speaker: The han. Minister has asked leave to respond to the petition. Can we revert back to that? Do we have leave? Mr. Tobin: Ml" . Speake1n, if I could speak on the point of order. We certainly have no difficulty under the rules of the House in reverting back to the rules that govE:~rn the presentation of petitions, if that is agreeable with the other side. Mr. Speaker: The Minister of Education . hon. the Dr . Warren: Mr . Speaker, I u.Jill just respond very briefly to the petition.

Certainly this Government believes that investment in education is one of the best investments a society can make at all levels of education, pa1nticularly at this point in time, at post-secondary levels. We as a Government want to increase the participation rates in post-secondary, not just at university but at co11eq~~s and at. other post-secondary ins titu t:.ions. We have initiated a number of activities already. WE! have indicated that we want to decentralize post-secondary education throughout the Province to bring opportunities closer to Lhe people.

We have reFor·med the Student Aid Program, and I am delighted, Mr. Speaker, thal: t.ue have in thE! gallery today the President of the Student Council at Mernot~ial and I think he u.Jould confirm that Lue have dont' a L31 DecNnber· 6, 1990 Vol XLI ~ -.... tremendous amount dut~ing the past year to reform the Student Aid Program and to provide opportunities for more Newfoundlanders to go on to do post-secondary.

We have also increased scholarships very dramatically, and I can assure the han. member and the students at Memorial, that we will do everything possible ·to provide the best possible post-secondary education fo1n students in this Province. We have to compE• te IAl"i.l:h the world. Our people must be educated and this Gouernment is cornrnitted to pi"OVicl:ing a hi.qh level of education For all our students. Some Han. Members: Hear, h~~al~! Mr. Speaker: The han . the Member for Grand Bank. Mr. Mattheu.Js : Thank you, Mr· . Speaker.

I take this opportu ni l:y as lAJe 11 to rise and speak in support of thr:• petition so ably pinE!SE!nted by rny colleague from Humber EasL. It is a very, very important petition and it is a very, VE!I"Y important issue for the Future of Newfoundland and Labrador, particularly For young Newfou ndlanders and Labradorians.

I have listened to the Minister ve1~y, vei"Y intently ovc:•1~ the last: number of weeks in this Legislature when he has been questioned about the impact of Budget freezes or funding cutbacks, and Lhc::~ '.i.mplicat:ion it is going to have for Memorial University of NE>wfound1and, and the thousands of studen ts about our Province lAJho are al:tendinq, or u.Jho IAJil1 want to att.encl that university. I lAJanL to s<.'ly t:o the Minister that he can geL up in his place all he like and l:.alk about No. 92 R 3 l

tbis past yea1~' s improvements in student aid, he can talk all he like about increasing scholarsbips, but the real issue here is whether or not Memorial University, as we know it, will be able to continue to function at the level that it now functions, whether or not it LJ..Ji11 be able to pr·ovide the quality of education, and whether it will be able to offer the samE~ number of courses that it now offers to the students out and about this Province? "'rhat is the real issue here, Mr. Speaker.

The other big worry, of course, is that if the budget is frozen, or indeed there are cutbacks, will we indoed see a frc:'eze on the enrollmE:~nt level at the University? Will that be controlled and will we sE~e a freeze? Then we will have hundreds and hundreds of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians who will not be able to get admission to Memorial University of Newfoundland and Labrador and c o n s e q u e n t 1 y tAli 11 no t go o n to be better educated Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, which will be good for the future oF our Province.

That is the ,~eal issue, so I take great pleasure today to rise in this Legislature to support the petition. I would like to- complirnr:'nt \:he St:udent. Union at l:he University fat~ taking up tbis vrc.'ry, vc:.'ry important cause, to congratulate them on getting this petition, getting it to the Legislature, so that we once more can get support for their cause, and to gr:~t thE:' Minister to his feet to 1·11~ar what he has to say about this very important issue.

I only lAiish thE:' next time the Minister rises in his place he will be able to ensure the students of Memorial Universi l:v, E•nsurE! the faculty, the administration of Memorial University, that next year they L32 DecE:!rnber 6, 1990 Vol XLI .. .::; will indeed receive the increase to the University they so tAJi.llingly deserve. If t.UE! do not see that, M1~.

Speaker, then I arn afraid that the very successful Memorial University of Newfoundland and Labrador that tAle have seE!n in this ProvincE•, that we brag about so much, thai: I think it lAIOUld be VE!ry, VE!r'y regressive and a very sorrv day for Newfoundland and labrador if tl1is Minister of Educat:.:i.on and this Government Freezes t.hE! budget of the university or cuts it b a c k . So , with that , M 1~ . S p E! a k e r· , I conclude my remarks and go on record as E!ndorsing very sincE:'I~ely the petition so ably put Forth. Mr. Speaker: Orders of the Day. f:l_r_~aker: Order 12 . Mr.

Speakc:.~r: rhe hon. l:hE• Opposition House Leader . Mt~ . SpE!dkE!ln, 1 tn:lsE :• provisions of Standing to ask leave to rnuVE! tl·w Mr. Simms: under the Order 23 adjournment oF the House For· the~ purpose of discussing a rndt:.t~E'I" of· urgent public importance. rhaL matter is - withou t going inLo a lot of detail- the issue Ll1al: tA:e debated E!arl:ir:'t~ in \:he House and we talked about back and Forth, the CBC cutbacks. Some Han. Members: Carried . Mt~. Speaker : 1 he Government House Leader. Mr. Baker: Thank Speaker .

I understand hon . thE• you, Mr . that t.his l:he House rnat:tel" of is simply a rnotion that adjourn to discuss a urgent and pressing standing order 23. IL that has been dealt the floor of the House business, is a l'llc\ Ll..r-:• r· tAl i l: h a c r· o s s a couple of aftc:·r·noon' s l:irnes dur·.ing this No. 92 R32

sitting and I am prepared to si ·t down with the Opposition House Leader to see if tAle can come up with a resolution that is immediately acceptable to both sides. However, M1~. Speaker, I suspect that what the House Leader wants to do is to make exactly the same case that is made in the resolution currently b~~fore the House. There are sorne arguments for and against, of course, adjourning the House to discuss the matter of urgent importance. First of all I would like to point out that a resolution does indeed exist on the order paper that deals with the same issue that the member is mentioning.

I am assuming he wants to deal with exactly the same issue. The standard arguments that House Leaders use, Mr. Speaker, against speaking against adjournment of the House under Standing Order 23 is the fact that there are ari1ple opportunities on the order paper to discuss such matters, including the Address in Reply in which almost any matter can be discussr:1d. So, Mr.

Speaker, I simply make the case that I do not think that we should adjourn the House to discuss this matter at Ulis ·time and that tAle try to dc~al with it in som~::~ othe1~ way, that there is no emergency situation in th~::1 Province, and that the matt.er he refers to can be dealt· with adE:~qua ·tE<ly by a.ther rneans, and the fact that l:h~:>re :is already a r·esolution on the Ol"cler papE~I~ dealing tAJil:h t.he same rnaU:E!rS, Mr. Speake I~. Mr. Speaker·: In j udgin~J whe thE!

I~ adjournment should proceed under this Standing Order, or whether l:.he Chair ough L to pE:>r'trri l: debate under this procedure, the Chair has to look at a couple of things. One, oF course, is not the urgr:'ncy of the matter Lhat ·the L33 D E! C E~ Ill b E~ r 6 , 1 9 9 0 Vo1 XLI Chair looks at. There is no question about the ur·gency of the matter; it is the urgc:!ncy of the debate. And in looking at the urgency of the debate, one of the factors that previous speakr:~rs in this House and other Houses has used is: what wi.ll bE· achieved by the ·debate being held this day? Will it change something?

As a result of the debate will there be any changes resulting? We are looking at, first of alL a matter that is not wiLhin the jurisdiction of the ProvincE~, so it is very unlikely l:hat. any thing we could do today would change anything, since it is not under the Province 1 s jurisdiction, ol:her than an expr~::1ssion, oF colH'Se, of dissatisfaction by the 1-loust::!. We have already had the Minisl:el" of Municipal Affai1~s givt:' a st.atE'ITient to the effect of thE• posit.i011 oF the Government and the response from the Opposition which substantially agreed with that position.

The hon. the Govor·nrnr::•nt House Leader also pointNJ out t.hat there -.is a J"esolution beforE~ t.he House and that is anothel~ rnal:teJ" when deciding upon emergency debate. If ther·e is a l~r::~solul:ion before the House, then one cloC:'S not allow the debate l:.o lake place. So two thinqs: tAle ht:we a resolu ·l~ion befoi~E! thE~ House, a1so, to the Chair 1 s understanding, the1~e was an a~11"E~ernent ear·Lier in the clay l:hat both s·.ides lAJoulc\ met=>.L and attempt Lo come up with a satisfacLOI"Y resolution. rhat ha~~ not. happE!necl.

The Cha:i.r has no control over that, but in the Chair 1 s view there is a resolution before Lhe House, so for these reasons the C h a "i. r wi 1 t no L ~~ 1~ an l: the C:1rneJ~qency debal~e at Lhis t.oi.lllE:'. Mr. Simms: On a po:i .nt of order, Mr'. Spea"i<E!Y' . No. 92 rn:1

Mr. Speaker: On a point of order, the Opposition House Leader. Mr. Simms: Just to use the guise of a point of order to try to concludf"' this issue for the timE! being . Considering his comments just made, would the Pr·esident of the Council be prepared to ask his Minister responsible for communications, the Minister for Municipal Affairs, to get together wi l:h the Member For Par· t au Port who, on our side:'!, initiated this is sue yesterday with a draft resolution, and maybe the tlAJO of them might be able to carne up tAJith wording that is acceptable to both sides. that we could have a look at - An Hon.

Member : (Inaudible) you would call resolutions (inaudible). Mr . Simms : No. I already we:>nt through that earlier. They have already refused and rejected that, even though it is simple. But I thought probably if the Minister and the Member for Port au Port got together -- I have spoken with the Memb er and he is quite preparod to look at some wording and som e drafting without conceding anything, and corne back to ou1n side, and you go back to your side, and maybe before l:he day r:~nds it would be niCE! if tAle might ·: be ab1e to hav e something .

Sornethin 'g sho1nt and simple is all lAJe n e ~::'d , anyway to E:'Xpress something from th e House . If he Luould be prepared to do that. would he be prepared to do that? Mr . Speaker : fhe han. l:he Government House Leader . Mr . B aker: Yes, Mr. SpeakE!r. Along th e line s of what I have been talking about on a couplE! of occasions l:oday, that is exactly what I hav e been saying. L34 DeCE!rni :HH' 6, 1.990 Vol Xl...l I would 1ikE! to r·emind thE!

House that there already has been a statement by l:he Minis ~~~er responsible for· Comrnunicati .ons in the House and responded to by ME!ITJbers Opposite, wh:ich eXFli"E!SS views of both sides of the House. What we are trying to do 11E!n! is to come up with something on which we can vote and would be acceptablE! to both sides. and on that basis I IAJou1d bE! p!"epared to ask these tiAJO MembE: !rs to sit down and see what they can up with. And if in fact therE! is something that is acceptabJ.c:' t.o both s:idE:'S, then tAJe could deal tAJil:h it rather quickly. Orders of the Day Mr. Bak er: Oi"de!n 12, M!".

SpeakE!! ". f:'.l.!.~...:. .. __ .. .fu?. _~ a k e r .. : reading of an Cl1iropractors" . Order 12 is SE •cond 11

An Act Res p E! c tin q (BiLL No. 60). For the guidance of the Chair , has this been in second reading befor e or is this the first time? An Hon . Member: tirne. Thi s is thE! fir 's t Motion, second reading oF a bi ll, "An Act Re specting Chii"OPI"ac l:or·s 11 . (Bi11No . 60). Mr. Sp ea ker: rhe hon . th e Minist er of Health . Mr. Decker: Ml" . SpeakE!r', I a111 pleased, indeed, to introdu ce second reading of this bill - Mr. Simms : Hear, hear! Mr. OE: !cker : Act, and I am Opposition Hous e i·w ar! No. 92 The Chiropract ors glad to hear the Lr:•acler say 'Hear ', I~ 3'l

-<': ~ .... It is a subject which has been under discussion for quite a number of years. Now I have a whole long speech, but I do not foresee any difficulty putting this Act through. Looking at tht~ experience in the rest of Canada and in No1nth America generally, Mr. Speaker, it was obvious that

an Act to govern Chiropractors uJas necessary and that that was the only practical and reasonable option which was available. The Legislative hearing process 1.uas very valuable, Mr. Speaker, in terms of dealing w-.il:h some of the difficult issues relating to the subject. The Social Legislation Review Committee, chaired by the hon. Member for Carbonear I did an excellent job in having public input into this piece of legislation. That committee rnade some very valuable, worthwhile suggestions with regard to changes, and I brought these before GovernmE!nt, Mr.

Speaker, and Government agreed to accept most of the suggestions which were made by the Legislation Committee. I think this is an excellent opportunity For me to thank the Membt::'rs of t.ha t Revie1.u Committee for their very thoughtful and their very careful reviet.u of lhis complicated subject in a relatively short time. I think. espE!Cially the hon ME·rnber For Carbonear deserves all the pra:Lse and credit we can give him for this. Ms Verg~: Hear, hear! Mr.

Decker: rhis bill before l:he House will establish a process and a f'rarnetAJork For thE! regulation of chiropractors, which :is Fairly sirni.lar l:o lhe ones lAJhich a1"e "in place in terrns oF other L35 DE!CE:'Inbel" 61 1990 Vol XLI professions in lhe Province. The bill establishes a regulatory licencing boal"d to ovr:~lnSE:'e the implementation of the Act and the granting of licences to chiropractors, as well as any other matters relating to licencing and discipline.

The bill also providE!S For what we commonly refer to as a grandfather clause, whereby those chiropractors now in practice would not have to write the Canad:ia n chi ro pra c tic ':' x arni nations in order to acquire a licence. This was one of the l~ecornmendations rnad{::- by thE:~ Social Legislation Review tommittee.

I would like to point out that the chiropractors in question tAlill have to meet all the other acad~Hnic requir~;:~rn.:~nl:.s in ord~:!r to obtain a 1 icence, . houH~VE!r, thE!Y will be exempted from having to write the exams, which could be difficult For people t.uho gr'adual:.ed some years ago, but this :in no way will reflect on the ability or the education of the chiroprac Lars u1ho are practicing in this Province. This is a very cornrnon pr'oceclt.lr'e~ which is done by other professions.

I can tell you that our chiropractors in this Province a1"e as qualified as chiropractors anywhere E!lse in · Nol~th Anlf:'l"i.cal but · we are going to grandfather them in rather than have thern subjected to tAJr'it.ing exa1ns. rhe bill grants chiropractors access to x--ray sE:~rvicE:!S in their own offices, Mr. Sp~~aker I Ol" in thE~ x---ray Depar ·trnen t.s of the hospitals. Evidence indicates that in 'or'dE!I" to car'I"Y ou L Lheir functions properly, chiropractors need some aCCE!SS to x--·l"ay SE:'r'v :icE:!S and this bill will - No. 92 R 3 'j

""'--.._ Mr. Parsons: (Inaudible) ask one specific question? Mr. Decker: Of course. Mr. Parsons: If I went ·to a chiropractor (inaudible) is that couered by (inaudible)? Mr. Decker: Mr. Speaker, the original Act which we presented stated that MCP would not pay For x-rays. The Lr:~gislation Reuiew Committee recommended that we take this reference out of the Act. That has been taken out at this time, but it does not necessarily follow that because it is taken out of the Act we will pay for the X·-rays. So at this time t..ue are not paying. but it is not written in stone.

On the recommendation of the Social legislation Reuiew Committee, and this is what the hon member spoke about, the bill no longer contains references to the insurability of chiropractic. Of course, this will be pursued as a policy issue. Th~::~re are presently no plans to insure chiropractic nor, I understand, haue there been throughout the discussions which haue taken place ouer the years with respect to this issue . In surr11nary, this biLl lAJill prouide for an E!ffectiue tnegulation of ch:lropractic in the Prouince, and I am delighted indeed to inttnoduce this bill at this time For second reading. Mr.

Speaker: The hon. the Metnb(:'r for· HurnbE!r East . Ms Verge: Thank you, Min . Speaker . I did not expect the Ministe1n of Health to be as brief as he was in speaking to introduce this legislation. It is important legislation in which a great number of people of Lhe f>tnouinCE! haue a high degree of interest. I was priuileged to participate as U6 Deu>rnber 6, 1990 Vol XLI Vice-Chairperson of the Social Legislation Reuiew Committee, along with my colleagu .es. I t ... li1l call them, l:he Mernber For Carbonear, who is th1:~ Cha:lrpE•J"son, the Member For Harbour Grace. l:he Member for St.

George 1 s. and the Member for Burin - Placentia West, in scrutinizing an earli~r uersion of this bill. The original draft h~gislat.ion IAJas giuen to the Social Legislation Review Committee in the sutmOE!r, and th~=! Committee had SE!UOI"al meetings considering the bill dutning the early paint oF Lhe fall. We aduertised our· meetings and inuited public rE•sponSE!. ThE! response was quite impressiue.

Obuiously, as I mentioned before, there is a high degree of public interest in chiropractic in hauing legislation regulating the practice of . chiropractic in the Prouince, and in tl~ying l:o p1nou ide for irnproued availability of chiropractic seruices. rhe people lAJhO rnacle presentat.ions to the Committee included consumers, patients, indiuiduals, w h o c a rn o o n t h e i r o IAJn • a s IAJ e l. l a s organizations, the prou i.nci.al Chiropractic Associat ion, indiuidual chiroprac l:ors, I:. he NeiA~oundland Medical Association, the Newfoundland and Labrador Association· of Hospit.a1s and Nut~sing Homes, l:he Physiol :lwrap ist Association, the Dietitians · Association , as IAJe ll as o l: he Ins .

I arn spE•aking fr·orn rnernotny notAl, but. ther1:~ is a cornpl1:!te 1isl: : of l:he names of Lhe presenters, in an appendix to the report of the Social Legislation Review Cormnittee, which the chaitnP"='Inson tabled earlier this afternoon. I found people IAIO r k No. 92 the presentations of Lhese fascinating. fhe Committee on the chiropractic R36

legislation was one of the most interesting tasks I have had during my political career. We probed not only legislation governing chiropractic, but our discussions ranged widely and included a critique of the whole medical system in our Province and in mo~t of the Western world. What emerged from the process of committee consultations is that, number one. the bil'l lAJas largely satisfactory. being a product: of earlier work of an advisory comrni ttee to the Department of Health, established by the previous Government, which was continued by the new Government.

However. there u.Jerc->. l:wo major points of contention. The first was the provision in the original bill saying that chiropractic services would not be covr:~red by MCP or hospital insurance. The other controversial point had to do with the denial to chiropractors of direct accE~ss to hospital, lab and x-ray services. Much of the Committee 1 s time:' was spent examining those l:.wo particular issues. As for the rest of l:he proposed legislation. there was u.Jidespread agrE!emr:~nt. Certain exceptions were made, and those have:' bE!en noted in the Committee 1 s report.

The Committee made a unanimous recommendation to the Minis tE!r of Health, calling For certain changes in the legislation . Mr. Speaker, members of the Committee differed on the policy question of whether there should be public funding of chiropractic services. the same as medical SE!rvices, but. we all ag1need that ·that SUbjE!Cl:. IAIOUJ.cl bE! bo ·tl:.er' addressed in other legislation. L37 DE:'CE:~mber 6, l')90 Vo1 XLI As an Opposition ITIE!rnbeJn.

I LI.Jould like to use the opportunity afforded by this debate to say that I believe it is t:.ilnE! for t:he Government to extend MCP and hospital insurance coverage to chiropractic services. I J.earned in the course of rny work on the Committee that chiropractic is extremely effective in terms of relieving people 1 s pain and improving their health, as tAJell as in terms of cost.

Several individuals told us about their personal stories of misery and grief while they atLernptNI unsuccessfully to qet l:real:mE!nt from physicians, but tAJho. af'tPJ" months and even years of agony, were finally hea1ed by chi r o p r actors . A C't u·a 11 y , s inc e my tAJork on the Cornrnitt:ee, every t-lrne I encounter a person with back trouble, I quickly ask thorn if they have sE~en a chircipr'actor. I have become a convert to the cause of chiropractic. Thankfully, I, personally, havE! never had SE!riou~; back trouble, so I haVE! m~VE!In had to go to any health care professional for ~elieF. Mr.

Speaker, on l:he qUE!Stion or-­ public funding, I lAJould urgE '! thE:! Minister of Health and the GoverniTIE!nt, in thr:,ir Budget deliber·ations, to think seriously about extending MCP and hospital. insurance coverage to chi1noprac Lie services. The second point that JAJ<:ls thE• subject of most of the prE!Senta ·tions to the Con11ni t.tr::.e had to do. as I say, IAii th JAJhE• LhE!r 01n not chiropractors should be able to access directly hospita1, Jab and x-ray services .

All the presenb:•rs, tAiil:h the excepl: ·ion of the institutiona1 E'!SLab1ishrnnnt: . in the Province, urged l:.he Cornrnil::t(~e to make the recommendation which No. ')2 IB '7

we did ultimately, namE:~ly that the legislation give chiropractors the right to deal directly with hospital lab and x-ray departments. The alternative which is the case now, of course, is that chiropractors who need lab tests or x-rays have to send their patients to a physician, to a general practitioner, simply to arrange for a hospital x-ray or hospital lab tests. This results in needless duplication, extra cost for the Government, and a waste of time on the part of the patient.

Because of th~:! inability of chiropractors to dE:'al dirE!Ctly with has pi tals for lab and X·-ray setnvices patients have to make tl..uo visits to general practitioners, two visits which I arn convinced are unnecessary and which add to the MCP cost borne by the Government. rhis bill that we now have represents acCE!ptance on the par·t of the Government of many of the recommendations of the public and the people who presented it to the Cornmi t·tee, as WE!ll as of the Committee itself. But sadly the bill does not extend to chiropractors the right to access directly hospital laboratory services.

And I am disappointed that thE! MinistE•r did not aclcltness this issue in his speech. While I am pleased tArith the Committee deliberations on the bill, Mr . Speaker, I am disappointed that the final bill lAJa s l E! f t so latH in this sitting of the House of Assembly. IF there had been more notice that this bill was going to be dE•al t with in the House before Christmas, thE!n I arn surE! many of the people who carne to the Committee and others, would have been here in the visitors galleries listening to the 1_3 8 DE!CE!Inber 6, L ')'JO Vol XLI debate.

But as it is I J.eatnnecl just this morning l:hat the Minister of Health did not not:ify even chiropractors that this legislation was going to bE! dco!al t with. And while I did inform them that we WETe going to be debating this 1E:'gislation this aftE!rnoon there has not been sufFici~'nt titTlE~ for any of the interes LE!d people to get here. NolAJ I hopE! that. thC::! debate will continue tomorrow motnning, so that some of the interested members of the public wi 11 be a b 1 E· to s i t. i n the galleries and hear what is said. Mr. Speaker - An Hon. Member : If i.l- tJJas such a good idea, why didn't you start?

Ms Verge: That is a good question. We did nol do everything right, but at 1.E!ast thE• former Government SE•l:. :in mol:ion thE! Aclvis01ny Cornrnitt.ee to the Department of Health that made recorniTH:~ndations for the bil l . But I d o n o t d i s a g r ~~ e tAri l: h a n y o n e lAJ h o says that thi ~; h'gislation should have been •pass( :•d a long t i.me a<JO. But herE:~ lAJE! iH'f:' today in OC::!CE•rnber· 1990 dnd I suppose il:. is betl::ur late than never . Ml" . Speai<E:~r, I would liko to dtAJe].l on the question of the way chiropractors function in the 11ealt:i1 carE! system.

Chiropracl :.cH's arE! highly E•ducal:ecl and t:rclinecl to specialize in chiropractic, including in the USE! oF thE! diagnos l:.ic tools of ' li.'lb tes l:s and X rays . They, lTlOl"B than 9('•nE!l"al practitioners, are equipped to dr~!al w·i th hospital lab e1nd X 1nay departments, so to block direct access on Lhe part of chiropractors with these hospital diagnostic seJnvict'S does not tnake any SE!nse al:. aTl. NotJJ, in the coursE· of the ConJJ Tli U:r::• e ' s No . ') 2 R38

deliberations as we discussed this issue I questioned each presenter, and the only people expressing any probh~rn tAJith chiropracto1ns deal::ing directly with hospital diagnostic departments, as I mentioned, were the institutions, the Provincial Association of Hospitals and N u r s i n g Home s , a s I r e c a 11 . The ·y indicated that there is no substantive reason why chiropractors cannot deal effectively with hospital radiologists and lab technologists and technicians.

The only rE!ason they suggested that chiropractors should be denied direct access and instead have to refer patients to intermediary geneJ"al practitioners is that there is not. a good relationship, or good communications, between chiropractors and physicians. Now, physicians in the Canadian and WE!Stern health care system as it has evolv~:!d in thi 's century are in a position of dominance. Physicians effectively have a monopoly over most health care services. Physicians are at the top of the health care pyramid and that is not logical or cost-effective.

There are other health care professionals, including chiropractors, including nurses, including optometrists, including rnidtAJives. who are bE!tter trained For certain aspects of health care and w~o can provide not .only better services but services at lower cost to the p u b 1 i c • 'a n d I b e 1 i e v e i t i s t i rn e for our provincial Department of Health as well as the Canadian Department of Health, Health and Welfare Canada, to C:'l'nbark upon a fundamental re -examination of our health care system and give greatE!r rE:'cognition and acceptance to the role oF health care professionals other than physicians.

I beli,eve l:.hat public funding through our Medicare L'39 Decl:~mber 6, 1990 Vol XLI system should no longer be confined to services provided by physicians but instead should be extended to other health caJ"e givers. Mr. SpeakE!r, in thE! cas~:' of hospital diagnostic services it seems to me that no good rE!ason was advanced For denying chiropractors direct access and conversely many good reasons were spoken about allowing chiropractors to access directly the se1nvices.

Now, MeclicaJ"E! and hospital insurance, public Funding in other words, is quite rE:'lr:'uant because even if the legislation were to permit chiropractors to order directly hospital lab services for their patients as aids in chiropractor's diagnosis and treatment, iF there is not public funding For Lhose t.l:'S ts then most patients tAJou1d pr·obably prefE!r l:o make l:he I:'Xtra l:tJJo trips to an intE!I"rnediaJny doctoJ", OJ" g~:~nE:~ral practitioner' so that: through the GP ordering the 1ab services. ·there is MCP coUE!racJe.

The two issues then are interttAJined and I tAJould. as I say. advocate an ar11endrnent to this bill to allow chiropractors to deal directly with hospital diagnostic services and l:hen recoJnrnl:'nd to the GoVE!rnrnent that. during the lAJ"i.ntE•J" budgetary process that they approve extending public funding throuqh MCP and hosp-Ll~al insuranCE! to chiropractic servicE!S :including hospit.al diagnostic services that are ordered directly by chiropractors . What: is the• sense, Mr. SpE!aker, of havinq pub] :i c funding for hospi l~.al diaqnos l~.iG services that ar'E!

Ot"cieJ"E•cl by a CP for a patient, but not providing that public funding foJ" thE! si':HIIE! serviU!