PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY Volume 1 Number 36 5th Session 34th. General Assembly VERBATIM REPORT TUESDAY, MAY 4, 1971 ,l SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE GEORGE W. CLARKE

May 4th, 1971 The House met at 11:00 A.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order! Tape 454(Morninr.) JM - l PETITIONS: HON. J.R. CHALKER(MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS): Mr. Speaker, I ask leave to present a petition on behalf of seventy fishermen of Green Island Brook in the district of St. Barbe North. The petitioners are requesting assistance in building a new fish-holding shed with refrigeration facilities. Now, ~r. Speaker, I think most of the people in Newfoundland are well aware of the fact that fish is becoming a very expensive cormnodity.

It was only the other day I think I paid sixty-seven cents a pound for salt cod steaks~ With this in mind, Sir, and with the scarcity of fish, ~etting scarcCr·every year actually, fish will be, as I say, will become something like a filet mignon,and to keep it up to that standard, Sir, we must have proper facilities for holding it.

I hope to speak later in this session on a pro~rannne for my district 1 which I hope will be copied by other districts wherein all fish-holding facilities will include a chill room to enable the people,if they cannot sell their fish immediately fresh they can hold it for twenty-four hours and# if it is not salable at the plant at that time,they can salt it then and it would still be in an excellent condition.

I have great pleasure, Sir, in supporting this petition one hundred per-cent and I am ~lad it came from my district,as it shows a modern trend has started down there which I hope will continue to the benefit of all fishermen in Newfoundland. MR. R. BARBOtR: Mr. Speaker, every time I hear the hon. me:Mber presentin~ that petition on behalf of the fishermen of Newfoundland and Labrador it brinr,s me to my feet because I have great respect for the fishermen of Newfoundland and Labrador.

Reinr, a fisherman myself one time.I know what they have to endure and if . the ~ranting of this frozen fish depot will improve 2331

May 4th, 1971 Tape 454(Morninr,) JM ~ 2 MR, BARROUR: their way of livin~ I can assure the hon. member,who very ably presented the petition,that I back it one hundred oer-cent. MR. J.C. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to support the petition from the hon. Minister of Public Works. It is indeed a very, very sensible proposal and I am delighted it came from his district where they certainly need this kind of facility as they do in many other districts. Fish holdinr facilities are badly needed in St. Barbe North and in other sections of the 'Province.

I was delighted indeed that the member for Bonavista South supported it so strongly. We know his heart is in the right place even if his seat is not. This petition also brings to mind the point, Mr. Speaker, that the House is beinp. rushed towards its closing by three sessions a day, I under­ stand the hon. Premier wants the House closed in two weeks and if that is the case how is the House goin~ to deal with Le~islation relating to the settinR of prices for fish and collective bargaining for fishermen?

If the House is now to weet three sessions a day, if the House is to be forced to finish its work within the next two weeks,as the Premier plans, what are the plans of the Covern~ent with respect to Legislation dealinr with collective bargaining for fishermen and the setting of fish prices? What hope is there that this House is going to be able to deal with that question, if we are now to be rushed to an early conclusion of the business of the House? I am speaking in support of the petition presented by the hon. Minister of Public Works for fish-holding facilities, Fish holding facilities are not enoup,h, Mr.

Speaker, the fishermen need more than that. They have indicated they want collective bargaining rights; they have indicated they want some arranr-ement ~hereby they can participate in the setting of prices for fish and this petition from the hon. Minister will be of little effect unless the Government is ~oinR to present this House with satisfactory 23]2

Hay 4th, 1971 Tape 454 (Morning) JM - 3 MR, CROSBIE: Legislation,as requested by the fishermen of New-foundland. If we are to be rushed to an early demise of this House,by sitting morning, afternoon and night,we would like some indication from the Government as to whether this matter is going to be dealt with or not. MR, H.R.V, EARLE: Hr. Speaker, on behalf of the Opposition I should like to support the petition coming from our hon. friend from St. Barbe. The other day I had a similar petition from.a district very, very similar indeed and I am only sorry that he did not support mine.

I wholeheartedly agree with the provision of this sort of facility for the fishermen in all districts of the Province. It means literally in many places the difference between a rewarding occupation and welfare. If the fishermen can be encourage to continue the shore fishery and have the means whereby they can hold this fish in a decent, palatable state until it is processed,this makes all the difference in the world between a fisherman going fishing or staying ashore, and I think action of this sort on the part of the Government would be of great encouragement to the fishermen.

I hope not only the hon. member gets it for his district but I hope that due attention is paid to the request which I made,for my district,for similar installation. On motion, petition received. HON, E.S. JONES(MINISTER OF FINANCE): Hr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of the people of Carmenville South. This petition is forwarded by the Carmenville Development Committee~ The prayer of the petition is that the road in Carmenville South will be upgraded during the comine season.

The petition is signed by two hundred and thirty-one voting citizens of the area and I feel certain that must be practically every voter in that particular are~. The road to Carrnenville South actually goes from the main highway out to the point. Although some work has been done down throu~h the years in upr,rading this road 1 the work has not been done at a rate 23J3

May 4th, 1971 Tape 454(Morning) JM - 4 MR. JONES: satisfactory to the people concerned. I feel certain, Mr~ Speaker, that this petition will receive sympathetic consideration from the department concerned and I ask leave to lay it on the table of the House and have it referred to the department to which it relates. MR. H. COJ,LTNS: Mr. Speaker, it certainly r,ives me great pleasure to rise in support of the petition just presented by the Minister of Finance and the hon. member for Foro,havin~ to do with the road to Carmenville South.

It is a'pity that reference was not made in the petition to the need for road improvements all the way down throuRh,frorn Gander to Gander Bay South and Frederickton and Mann Point and Davidsville, Cannanville North and South and on to Musrrave Harbour and the whole area around the loop and hack up to Gamba. Certainly, Mr. Speaker, if that particular area of the Province is goin~ to pror,ress and grow as it should,certninly the transportation facilities must be improved. This is just a short

section of road which the Minister refers to,but certainly, Sir, it is a pleasure for me to support him in that project and I would also hope that he will use his good influence with the Government to make sure that the roads which I have just referred to are also considered and upgraded. MR • CROSR IE : Mr. Speaker, I would also like to support the petition.

I hope that the road that the hon. member is presenting the petition about will be dealt with this year,although I notice by the estimates that there is only an increase 'of $14. million in the amount of money to be spent by the Government on hiphways this year.as compared to last year. The roads that are outside OREE areas and outside the DREE agreements there is not all that much extra money for those roads this year so perhaps the Minister,when we come to his estimates 1 will ~ive us a complete breakdown on where this money is to be spent.

There is no doubt at all that this road in the Carmenville area has been neglected ,as have many other hundreds~ aiid thousands of miles of roads around the Province.But we would like some explanation of where the money the 23J1

' May 4th, 1971 Tape 454(Morninr,) JM - 5 MR. CROSBIE: Minister of Highways has this year will be spent and we hope that some of it will be spent in the hon. Minister's district~ On motion, petition received. DR. JAMES MCGRATH: Mr. Speaker, I have here a petition from practically, I think all the settlements in St. Mary's Bay.

The prayer of the petition is that we the undersigned of SL Mary's Electoral District hereby petition the Government of Newfoundland to co~plete the additional five miles of Salmonier Line with upgrading, ~radinr, and paving this year,while materials and construction equipment are in the area. Mr. Speaker, the situation with regard to roads in St. Mary's is that there has been tremendous improvement in the roads in that area over the past years but as of the present moment there is not any paved road within the boundries of that district.

While I know that there are great needs for road improvements all over this country and in many other districts,! thinkJ because of that fact that I just mentioned,that this area deserves a very special consideration. Now I understand that the programme is to add another five miles of paving on the Salmonier Line aqd that will bring the pavin~ to within five miles of Hurley's Bridge and bring it actually into St. Mary's Bav1 as Hurley's Bridge is located at the bottom of the, waters of the bay.

It is further planned, I understand as a summer programrne,to pave seven miles beyond Hurley's Bridge through the settlements of St. Catherine's and Mt. Carmel. Now the prayer of the petition is that.instead of leaving that p,ap of gravel road then the road be continued that extra five miles. There is every reason for doinp: it because to carry it through there,first of all does brinA the road into St.

Mary's Bay 1 it benefits a large number of settlements, it benefits the settlements both on the Western side of the bay and on the Eastern side of the bay~, it is benefits the settlements on the Cape Shore and other settlements in Placentia Bay. In other words this extra five miles of road certainly would do the greatest ~ood to the p.reatest number and it does not 23J5

Hay 4th, 1971 Tape 454 (Momin~) JM - 6 DR.:_~11!: seem to me to be n very good idea to have an interruption~ You have so much paved road reaching a point and then you have five miles of gravel road and then you begin the paved road again. Now there are certainly advantages there because paving through a settlement is a hiP,hly desirable thing and we hope that that will be donelbut there is every need for this extra five miles of paved road.

It is not merely the five miles of road~ It does carry great implications in that it does link up St.Mary's Bay with the paved roads and it is much more important, 1 think, to do that than to have an isolated five or six miles of road,built anywhere at all,that do not complete the system. I have no doubt at all that the Minister, in planning, has• reasons for the makinp, of those terms.

But I think, from the point of view of people in the bay, they would much prefer to see the paving brought actually within the limits of the bay and, so to speak, bring the road in among the livers in the bay~ I would hope the Minister would be able to have another look at his pror,rarmne and that it might be possible to grant the prayer of the petition. I would therefore ask that this petition be accepted by the House and referred to the denartrnent to which it relates. MR. A.J. MURPHV(LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION): Mr.

Speaker, I have a great deal of pleasure to support the petition as presented by the hon. member for St. Mary's Ray, St. Mary's itself actually. Since becorninp. Leader of the Oppositioh I receive a fair amount of mail with reference to various matters throughout the Province and I would say1 oui te honestly, Sir, that the great majority of that comes from St. Mary's area.

Now this is not, I do not think, any slight to the hon. member, I think he has done his best to try to get this done but I feel thnt the people of the area at this time are thinking that,with the support ~f this side and in addition to the efforts of the hon. membert something will be done.Because, Mr. Speaker, in all fairness,there has not been one foot, to my understanding, of payement in the district of 23.JG

May 4th, 1971 Tape 454(Morning) JM - 7 MR, MURPHY: St. Mary's in twenty-two years. Now we talk of the Salmonier Line and that involves St.

Mary's Bay, I think we e:an go on to Colinet, I think we can go on to North Harbour 1 and there are r.1any hundreds perhaps who are not the main concern of people who live on the Salnonier Line area itself and I think this would be a tremendous blessing, Sir, to people who, in my opinion,and I know a great many of them personally for years, not politically but personally,who have to suffer the hardships of a terribly, terribly bad road~ I know the cost to these people in maintaining their vehicles and everything else must be tremendous~ I think, Sir, that is something that we must consider, that these people have as much right to pavement as anybody else,and I believe that when the Minister of Hip.hways decides on any pavini; in any district I think the first one he should consult with is the member for the district,as to where is the best place to put this pavement not drop it down in the wilderness here and then-you go on for fifteen or twenty miles and you find another bit.

So, Mr. Speaker, I have very ~reat pleasure indeed in supporting this petition and I pray, I pray very sincerely that this petition will be given the just treatment it deserves. HON. G.A. FRECKER(MINISTER OF PROVINCIAL AFFAIRS): Obviously, Mr. Speaker, there are a good many people who feel as I do that the petition just presented by the hon. member for St. Mary's deserves very - 2337

May 4, 1971 Tape 455 page l. Morning Session. strong support. I, as the member for Placentia East 1 had to use that old Sal.monier Line until the new access road from Whitbourne was ready for use and many many times I met constituents of the hon. member who presented the petition, who unburdened themselves to me,feeling that they had not received as much consideration as some other districts. It is a torturous road, a sinuous road, and a very dusty road. I feel that in this day and age it should not continue to be unpaved.

I realize,as a member of the Governrnent,that many things have to be taken into consideration when preparing an overall plan bnt I never­ theless feel jui:.tified in giving my personalJstrong support to the hon. member's petition on behalf of the constituents of the old and venerable d:J.strict of St. Mary's. lt may be of interest to·.:.the hon. members of this House to know that the district of St. Mary's, as is well-known,used to be Placentia - St.

Mary 1 s and has been represented by the McGrath family for at least three generations, I have the honour of being married to a first cousin of the hon. member1 and her father was a member of the Placentia - St. Mary 1 s District. The hon. member's grnnd-father and father were members of Placentia - St: Mary's. Now the district has been divided into two districts, it still seems to be a family affair,Mr. Speaker, and I take very great pleasure in supporting the hon. member. MR.CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I certainly support enthusiastically the petition presented by the hon. member for St. Mary 1 s Bay.

In my experience of driving on the roads of the Province - and I have said this before,-and l also say it is not the hon. member 1 s fault - the road system through St. Mary's Bay.certainly among the worst dirt roads in this Province. Any one who has driven around this Province at all and who can look at·this impartially will agreeJI think,that the toughest road system to drive on in this Province is down through St~ Mary's Bay. I differ from the Minister in one respect. He says there has been 23J8

May 4, 1971 Tape 455 page 2. Morning Session. trernen·dous improvements in the past twenty-two years. I have not been driving down there for twenty-two years but I cannot find anybody in St. Mary's flay who will agree that there have been much in the way of improvements on that road system, Certainly what the hon. member says when he presents his petition makes good sense.

Although it is certainly desirable to have the road to the community paved,as the Minister says, there is nothing worse than driving on a paved road then you strike five or ten miles of dirt· road then you get on a paved road again, If the Minister of Highways has an extra $14 million this year he should pave that intervening five miles of road 1 as the hon. member suggests. Certainly St. Mary's Bay should have priority as far as road funds are concerned, They have suffered for a long time there with a pitiful road system 1 just not good enough in this day and age.

The hon. member knows many,many of them have to leave St. Mary~s Bay for work. To go to work every day, they have to drive back and forth over that road.lt results in much extra expense to them, wear and tear on their motor vehicles. in addition to this pf course,the St. Mary's Bay District is very scenic. There would be a lot more tourist travel, local tourist as well as foreign.down through that lovely area if their road was paved. ll!lli.E.WINSOR(!1in. of Lab.Affalrs):Mr.Speaker, l wish to inform the House that Mr.

Keith Roland, chairman of the seals and sealing committee, which was appointed by the Government of Ottawa,will be visiting St. John's within the next day or two. I understand also that he has been in touch with the people involved in the sealing industry and no doubt will meet with some of them and arrange for further meetings and hearings. I do not know what plans are at the moment but we will have to wait until aftet Dr. Roland's visit to find out. MR.CROSBIE: Mr.

Speaker, a question on the Minister's statement- ls the Government of Newfoundland presenting a brief or submission to this federal committee also or what approach is the hon. minister planning? 2339

Mny 4, 1971. Tape 455. page 3. Morning Session. MR.WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, I cannot give any more information at the moment, but if the question is put on the Order Paper we will deal with it. Ml!.. JONES: Mr. Speaker, I still have another petition~ This one is a bit heavy,Mr. Speaker, that is why I would like to get it off my desk. Actually,;it is probably the largest petition ever presented in this House. It is signed by 2,880 voters from the District of Fogo.

The prayer of the petition is;whereas Highway 40, the Gander Bay Road,is used to transport people and goods coming to and from the Gander Bay1 Fre<lerickton, Noggin Cove, Carmanville, Fogo Island, Ladle Cove, Aspen Cove, Musgrave Harbour, and

whereas the growth of the economic base of the area is largely dependent upon the rapid transportation of fish products over dust free roads, upon the convenient transportation of forest products and upon the development of the tourist industry in the area~ Therefore,we,the undersigned residents named in the petition, hereby petition the Government of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador to have Highway 40 from Gander to Musgrave Harbour upgraded and paved and that the completion of this project be given top priority. A~ain, Mr.

Speaker, this petition has been forwarded on behalf of the people of Fogo District,from the Carmanville Development Committee over the signature.of Mr. Francis Reid. It is significant to note that every community in the area signed the petition, Frederickton 147, Gander Bay South 199, Gander Bay North 100, Noggin Cove 132, Carmanville 334, Fogo Island 1086, Ladle Cove 85, Aspen Cove 107, Musgrave Harbour 690. MR.SMALLWOOD: Does that include Doting Cove? MR.JONES: Mr. Speaker, yes, Sir, I would say that is Musgrave Harbour, Doting Cove, and Ragged Harbour.

It is significant that the largest boock of signatures on this petitJon comes from Fogo Island,something over a thousand signatures, but they are petitioning for the upgrading of the main road from Musgrave Harbour to the Trans-Canada Highway. I 24 •JO

May 4, 1971, Tape 455. page 4. Morning Session~ think ·this is significant for two reasons.

It is significant that they are joining with their friends on the mainland part of the distri~t in t heir need for better roads and also it is an indication that the people of Fogo Island have a bit of faith in their future, and possibly there are more people from Fogo Island itself uses the road from Carmanville to Gander than from the district~ As the House is aware,Mrs Speaker, considerable work has already been done on this road, on the Gander Bay Road,lt was unfortunate that a four mile contract last year had to be discontinued. last fall due to the failure, the unfortunate failure., I would say 1of the contractor.

This work is becinning to pick up again now and it is hoped that some work will be done on the remaining twelve miles of the Gander Bay road itself. When we speak of the road from Gander Bay to Musgrave Harbour it could very well be 1 for a modern highway there we may have to some realignment as well as upgrading and pavement. It is obvious 1 Mr. Speaker, I think 1 that every member of this House,who bas had the pleasure of driving over the Gander Bay road and visiting this part of the Province) will agree to me that this, , the prayer of this petition, is the real lifeline of the entire district.

I heartily endorse the prayer of the petition and I ask leave to have it placed on the table of the House and referred to the department to which it relates. MR.COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, what the minister has said is a repeat of what I have been sayinr, for the three years that I have had the privilege of oCCupying a seat in this hon.

House and that is the dire need for the completion of the Gander Bay road from Gander to Gander Bay on through Davidsville and Main Point, Frederickton, Noggin Cove, Carmanville, Ladle Cove, At!lpen tove, Ragged Harbour,Doting cove, Musgrave Harbour and indeed, Sir, on down through Wesleyville and up again to the loop to Gambo and the Trans-Canada Highway. Now, what we are dealing with here is the petition from the residents 24v1

May 4, 1971 Tape 455 page 5. Morning Session. of Fogo District, having to do mainly, essentially,with the need for road improvements to Gander. I have said on numerous occasions,Mr., Speaker, that the community of interest for people in Fogo District in Bonavista ~orth, in Twillingatc and sections of Lewisporte District, the community of interest is Gander.

I have also gone on record as saying that a healthy Gander means a healthy environment for the people referred to in this petition and vice versa, it is to their mutual benefit that this road be improved and be improved quickly and paved and brought up to suitable standard so that people can move around as they need to move around today. Mr. Speaker, about two years ago a portion of the road on the Gander Bay end was completed.

I think it is about ten miles, We said at that time that the road should have been completed all the way because there was a considerable cost involved to the contractor and, of course,to the Government,to the taxpayer in moving equipment in_ - certainly there was a considerable cost in moving equipment out. It was my opinion that the road should have been completed at that time. Last year we found another contract let for about four miles on the Gander cnd,which was in very poor condition,and this again resulted in unnecessary expenditures. Now we find that another contract must be let to complete the

section in between the two ends as it-were. I would like to see the Minister of Highways make a real special effort to have this road completed this year. The people in that particular part of the Province are mad, they are really riled up when they hear of DREE Agreements whereby $7 million is being spent to come up with a new access road to St. John's,from the Waterford Bridge Area back to the Trans-Canada Hight;,1ay,,in the vicinity of Paddy's Pond,I believe. Certainly people coming into St.

John's can get in here reasonably well now by the Kenrnount Road and certainly people wishing to leave the city can also get to the Trans-canada relatively easy and without much wear and tear on their cars. Down in this particular area of 24il2 ., '

May 4, 1971. Tape 455. page 6. Morning Session~ Newfoundland we find people who leave Musgrave Harbour and come to Gander,for work or for groceries or for doctors services or whatever it might be, and invarib½y when they reach Gander,even though the trip might have cost them five dollars of gas, possibly a charge for some service in Gander, invaribly they find they have to put their cars in a garage and possibly add another thirty or forty or fifty and may be a hundred dollars cost to the trip.

The time has come,Sir, that this Government must look at this problem. there are a great number of people involved, The key to their develop­ ment, development of the communities, the key to it is transportation, The community of interest is Gander on the other end of this road. It gives me great pleasure to support the petition and)as I said,! hope the minister of Highways will take into account what the hon. member said and what I have said and get about the work of completing this road as soon as possible. MR.CROSBIE: Mr.

Speaker, I certainly would like to support this petition too.There is not much that can be added to what the Hon. Minister and the hon. member for Gander have said. Obviously, it is a badly needed link, very important for Fogo District, important for Gander,therefore it is important for the island~ Once again one can only hope that the Minister of Highways is going to be able to make his $14 million additional money this year stretch so that this work can be done. It Certainly is an anomaly that $7 million can be found for this access road from the .. Trans-Canada into the south end of St.

John's and there is alGo expected to be one in Corner Brook, There t,,.,? is no contract let in the Corner Brook area yet. I notice the city council came in here last week to see the Government about it. While those roads are irnportant,it is far more important to see that areas like the Fogo District, Gander Bay area have their road paved in the first place before we start thinking of access roads into other areas, 24iJ3

May 4, 1971. Tape 455 page 7. Morning Session. 1hey are important too. But, of course,! would assume that in the minister's case, in the case of this road there is no federal contribution,and 1 t is very tmfortunate that is the case. we certainly support the petition. Notice of Motion: HON.L.R.CURTIS(Hin. of Justice): Mr. Speaker, l give notice I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a Bill, 11An Act Respecting The Attainment Of The Age Of Majority." ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS: 24•]4

}'.ay 4, 1971 Tape 456 (mornin~) PK - l HOH. J. R. S}<ALLWOOD: (PREMIER): Mr. Speaker, I have several answers. Question No. 305 on the Order Paper of March 30. in the name of the hon. the member for St. John's Eaat4

(1) Yes.

(2) The initial request came from the Ronavista Cold Storage Company. In 1969 and then discussions were held also with a delegation from the Community Council February 23, and again on April 7 Of the present year. And that the application for housing development i& under active consideration and that officials of the NePfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation are now actively attempting to determine the actual demand for houses. A sub-division plan has been prepared. And further meetings are to be held in the coming weeks.

(3) That no written or formal request has been received from the residents ot the Community Council. But discussions have been held nevertheless. These were held on the same dates as I have already mentioned. Question No. 404 on the Order Paper of April 22, in the name of the hon. the Leader of the Opposition - for the time being. MR. HURPHY, Very funny. MR. SMALLWOOD: It is really. I think it is extremely funny. The hon. gentleman does not think so, I know. 1-'R. MURPHY: Inaudible. MR. SMALLWOOD: The answer to (1) that a new rental scale has been adopted. I table here,fith. a copy. In answer to (3){

a) t't-'f!nty-five percent. (

b) no maximum income is specified. and (

c) increases will occur or decreases, as salary increases or decreases, in accordance with the scale, with overtime included as income. A table is attached. It is a normal thin~. Question No. 468 on the Order Paper of April 14, in answer to

(1) Shell type homes have been constructed. Five at Fortune. Ten at Happy Valley. Twenty-five at St. John's. Ten at Grand Bank. Five at Windsor. All those at Fortune have recently been sold; and two of those have now been completed by those who have bought them. These, of course, are shell houses. Shell houses have been constructed at Happy Valley and St. John's,are advertised for sale during March past. Applications for the purchase of them are now being processed. Shell homes at Grand Bank and Windsor are not yet ready for sale. Mortgage financing for the homes. sold has been provided under 24J5

May 4, 1971 Tape 456 (morning) PK - 2 MR. SHALJ.1100D: Tlle National l!ousing Act. (2) "no." MR. CROSRIE: A supplementary question, could the Premier table the written copyt so we could see that also. MR. S?AALLWOOD: No, these are notes for myself. MR. CROSBIE: Well, then MR. SMALLWOOD: I am giving oral answers~ MR. CROSBIE: Well, then a further supplementary question. Is it correct from the Prernier 1 s answer,of all these shell type houses only five to,~ate have been sold in the Province. and taken over by purchasers, that is the five at Fortune? MR. llICKHAfl: Two in Fortune. MR.

CRO~BIE: Two completed at Fortune. MR. ~ALLWOOD: If the House desires - hear me repeat the answer, although the answer will be found in Hansard, of course. I do so to this effect that Fortune all have been recently sold, At Happy Valley applications have been received and are now being processed, and also St. John's. Applications for purchase of them at St. John's and Happy Valley are now being processed. Those at Grand Ba~k and Windsor are not yet ready for sale. MR. CROSBIE: Five have been sold, that is the answer. MR. St!ALJ.11000: Question no. 469 - MR. CROSBTE: No commitment from the Government of Canada.

MR. SHALLFOOD: The answer to (1) during the Financial Year that commenced April 1 past, no April 11 last year. Shell housing, St. John's - twenty-five units. Fortune - five. Grand Bank - ten. Windsor - five. Happy Valley - ten. And the subsidized rental houses, Grand Falls - eight. Gander - twenty. Trepassey - forty-two. Blackhead Road, St. John's - forty-six. The economic rental units; Happy Valley - eighty-four. Old Perlican - one. Placentia - one. Port aux Basques - one. Springdale - two. St. George 1 s - one. Trepassey­ one. Harbour Bretbn,.,- two. Bay L1 Argent - one. Grand Bank - one. Dunville - one.

Grand Falls - three. Port Saunders - one. Bay Roberts - one. MR. f.ROSBIF.: Hr. Speaker, in connection with the economic rental units, apart from the eighty-four in Happy Valley are,these economic rental units, units that are beinr, rented to employees of the Government, for example, 24J6

May 4, 1971 Tape 456 (morning) PK - 3 }fR.. CROSBIE: welfare officers, doctors, in those various areas? MR. SMALLWOOD: I am not aware of the answer to that, we do build homes for civil servants, doctors, welfare offices and the like. We do for mngistrates and other public servants. We do also do housing for others, which are, which in this list I fear I do not know. But a question on the order paper would bring the answer. MR. CROSRIE! }fr. Speaker, there is a question on the Order Paper now. MR. SMALLHOOD: In that case the answer will come in due course. MR.

CROSBIE: The Premier is answering for the Minister of Municipal Affairs, these are houses I suhrnit that are built ••• MR. S~ALLWOOD: Is this an additional question? MR. SPF.AKER: The hon. member is out of order, he is commenting on the question. I have to tell him that. }ffi. CMSBIE: Will the hon. the Premier table the list he has in his hand, as prepared for him by the housing branch of the Governm·ent, so that we can have the accurate information contained in that prepared answer, rather than what the Premier choses even. MR. SMALLWOOD: The information will be in today's Hansard. MR.

CROSBIE: I submit the Premier is not giving the information that is provided to him by the housing department. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The answer to a question, as the hon. member knows, is out of order_ MR. CROSBIE: Will the Premier table the true facts. tm. SMALLWOOD: Question No. 470 on the Order Paper of April 14. MR. CROSBIE: False impression. MR. SMALLWOOD! in the name of the hon. the member for St. John's West 470, April 14. In reply to {1) thirty-nine houses were purchased. The smallest amount paid for any of these houses, was $300.00. And the largest amotmt $8,930. MR.

CROSBIE: That is the wrong question. MR. SMt\r.LWOOD: The total arnotmt expended uas $162,608 for the thirty-nine houses. 24.J7

May 4, 1971 Tape 456 (morning) PK - 4 MR. SMALLWOOD: In connection with

(2) In respect of all such houses~title to them is invested in the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation. MR. CPOSBIE: Hr. Speaker, on a point of information, that is not the answer to 470, 470 asks ahout prefabricated homes from Atlantic Design. And the answer has to do with,! think, homes brought for people on Yelfare. Would the Premier just check what number he is answering. MR. HICKFAN: 474 is the right number. MR. SMALLWOOD: 470 is what I have here,-but that may be an error. It maybe the answer to 4 7!,. Somebody look at iL In which case 4 74 is answered and 470 is not answered here.

In that case 474 is answered, 470 is not answered. Will, I think, these are identical. Although, J have identical answers, but one is to question li70 and the other is to question 474. But they are identical, and I have, therefore, not answered 470, but rather 474, and 470 is just not answered yet. HR. CROSBIE: Has the Premier got the answer to 470 there about Atlantic Desir,n Homes? MR. SMALLWOOD: No, I have not. }fR. C'R_9SRI~..:_ W~ll what was the document the Premier tone up? Was the information too damaging? MR. SMALLWOOD: It was the same as the one I gave you.

They were identical, but there were different nurebers on them. MR. CROSBIE: Well, why do you not table them. MR. SP.ALLWOOD: No, I will not prove it. Take my word for it. FURTHER ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS !ION_. E.S. JONES: (MINISTER OF FINANCE): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table answers to several questions. Question No. 497 on the Order Paper of the 16th. of April, in the name of the hon. the reember for St. John's West. Question No. 498 on the Order Paper of 19th. April in the name of the hon. the member for St. John's West. ~uestion No. 499 on the Order Paper of 19th. of April by the same hon. gentleman.

Question No. 500 the same date, the same hon. gentleman. Question No. 502 the same date, the same hon. gentleman. f?uestion No. 504 the same date, the same hon. j?entlema.n. And on 24,1 8

May 4, 1971 Tape 456 (morning) PK - 5 MR. JONES: the Order Paper of 20th. April, No. 525 in the name of the hon. the member for St. John• s West. Question No. 526 - MR. CROSBIE: Inaudible. NR. JONES: Yes, I am sorry, it has been answered. Ouestion No. 526 in the name of the hon. the -teader of the Opposition, on the Order Paper of 20th. April. HON. E. M. ROHERTS: (MINISTER OF HEALTH) : Mr. Speaker, If I may answer a few of the questions standing in my name on the Order Paper. Question No. 281 in the name of the hon. the member for St. John's East, :Monday, l-1arch 29 ·· I will table the list, Mr. Speaker.

It is with reference to the evaluation of waters within the City limits of St. John's and then within the St. Johnts Metropolitian area. The list is quite lengthy I will not read it, I will table it and the members can get it. But, generally 24,]9

May 4, 1971 (Morning) Tape No. 457 NC - l MR. ROBE_l1cTS_;_ speaking, bodies of water within the City limits of St. John's were found in tests made in 1 68, '69 and '70, to be unfit for swimming in the City of St. John's,within the Metropolitan area they were found to be fit for swimming with the exception of Octagon Pond. Generally speaking, water in all the ponds in both areas, both the City and outside, was not suited for drinking purposes without prior treatment such as boiling. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, this situation has prevailed for some time, as I know he is aware.

Would he be able to inform the House whether any action has been taken with respect to the pollution of waters within the City and immediately outside. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I think that is more within the Province of my colleague, the minister of Mines, etc. who is responsible for the administration of the Clean Air, Water, and Soil Authority. My Department is represented on the Authority by a Senior official, at present it is the Assistant Deputy Minister, Dr. Cant and the quasi-work in very close cooperation with the Health Inspection Officials, Dr. Severs and Mr. Strong and so forth.

I do not have a detailed answer and I do not know what detailed steps are being taken 1 but it is not a matter in which I am directly involved as Administrator of Investigation, it is under quasi-work as such. HR. MARSHALL: Could the minister then tell us something that is within his jurisdiction, the present status with respect to the Oliver's Pond development, has that been shelved completely now? MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, the Oliver~s Pond development is a little wide, although Oliver's Pond was not one of the ponds tested.

The Oliver's Pond development has been -approved by the Metropolitan Board for the development 2110

May 4, 1971 (Morning) Tape No, 457 NC - 2 MR. ROBERTS: of fifteen houses at Oliver 1 s Pond, near Windsor Lake, between Windsor Lake and the Old Broad Cove Road. The matter is still awaiting my decision as to whether or not it is suitable from the health standpoint. I can say nothing more, except that no decision has been made by me as to whether thi5 matter will go ahead and the matter cannot go ahead without clearance from the Department of Health. 1n the normal course that is done by officials but,as I am responsible,! reserve this decision to myself. MR. CROSBIE: Question, Mr.

Speaker, in connection with the Octagon Pond, the minister said that was found not to be fit even for swimming, can the minister tell the llouse what is the cause of this pollution in Octagon Pond? Is it industrial waster or you know, what has caused this? MR.

ROBERTS: I have no information in the papers here that would indicate it, but I would assume it is a combination of aircraft.which I do not believe use the Pond anymore but did use it "for years, the existence of the steel plant and the fact that there is a fair amount of building on the margin of Octagon Pond, some of it on the side of the Pond, some on the other side of the Topsail Highway. But I do not have detailed information. Question 292, Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman from St.

John's West, about Carbonear Hospital, I believe that has been answered, it has not been answered in reference to question 292, but I think with reference to an earlier question, our position is clear~ Similarly question 293, also asked by the hon. gentleman for St. John's West, I believe the Government's position is quite clear. MR. -~_R_O_pBIE: The answer is yes. ~fR. ROBERTS: To 293, yes, yes it is. MR. ROBERTS: Question 304, Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for St.

John's East asked me how many medical clinics were-..;constructed during 1970-71, I really do not know how to answer it,Mr~ Speaker, because the question is so loosely phrased, it would be almost impossible to answer accurately. There are three separate types of medical clinics, and the term, we 2411

May 4, 1971 (Morning) Tape No. 457 NC - 3 MR~Jfl.BERTS: use it and it is not a good one, one such clinic is a Public Health Centre; we built one up in Marystown, we are hoping to provide one at Deer Lake. The second clinic would be in a doctor's residence and the third would be in a building where a doctor can see patients during his visit to a community. The district of Fortune,in Fortune Bay,is the one that seems to be getting - - we put one in Grand La Pierre, we are putting one in Recentre East •.

I have had some talks with Grand La Pierre, Pool's Cove, If the hon. gentleman could perhaps indicate exactly what information he would like, I will try to get it for him, Sir. Question 317, the hon. gentleman for St. John's East,will be found on the Order Paper of Wednesday, March 31, the answer is 11 yes." Question 339, the hon. gentleman for St. John's East, will be found on the Order Paper of Thursday, April 1, What firms, if any 1 were engaged to perform consulting services for the St. John's General Hospital during 1969 and 1970? State the terms of any such engagements.

The answer I am given is that none were engaged. I think there may have been some studies carried on from earlier years !here was another question on the Order Paper, I am not sure if the hon. gentleman from St. John's East asked it or the hon. gentleman from St. John's West but there was another question. Question 365, Mr. Speaker, the Order Paper of April 1, the hon~ member for St. John's West asked if architects had been appointed for the expansion to the Hospital for Mental and Nervous Diseases? The answer is "yes~' Dobush, Stewart, Bourke and Barlow.

I believe Sir Christopher Barlow is the local partner or the local man. They were appointed in November 1970 and we expect the plans and specifications will be completed by the end of July coming, in other words May, June, and July, three months from now. The hon. gentleman asked what new or expanded facilities are planned for the Hospital? We plan two hundred new beds, one hundred of which will replace presently existing beds that will be removed from service. lor the present that 24.i2

May 4, 1971 (Morning) Tape No, 457 NC - 4 !~_R0BE_RTS: is going to cost us $2,000,000, Then the hon. gentleman asked on what date does the Covenment intend to commence or have commenced construction? The answer. is immediately subsequent to approval and acceptance of final plans and specifications and the award of the tenders. Question 397, the hon. member for Burin, Friday April 2, with reference to a request from the Town Council of St. Lawrence for the construction of an extension to enlarge the Memorial Hospital at St.

Lawrence, I have received such a request, no plans have been prepared at this stage,we are awaiting further information from the Council~ Then,when we have that,we will be in a better position to assess the matter in the light of the answer to the second part of the question .. Mr. Speaker, the third part of the question is not applicable, it does not apply, Finally, Mr- Speaker, question 445 1 the hon. gentleman for St.

John's East, the Order Paper of Tuesday, April 13, with reference to paragraph 59 of the report of the Auditor General for the year ending March 31, 1970, He wanted to know the name of the firm referred to, T.he firm is Lundrigan's Limited of Corner Brook. What were the said hospital construction projects?

They were the Western Memorial Hospital at Corner Brook, a proposal to build a Nurses Residential Training School at St.' Anthony, and a proposal to build a hospital at Twillingate- He wanted to know when and upon whose instructions were the services which were rendered by the said construction company engaged he answer is that they were engaged by the Government of this Province by oral contracts entered into in 1967. The point of the Auditor General's comment,•was that there were no written contracts but there were oral contracts.

The hon. gentleman, being a learned member, knows that a contract made orally is just as effective as a contract made in writing. He is learned in the sense we use the term in the House, he is getting taught as well. 24.i3

May 4, 1971 (Morning) Tape No. 457 NC - 5 MRo ROBERTS: What was the nature of the services performed? Mr. Speaker, they were the preparation of architectural plans and concepts and in some instances, the preparation of more detailed working drawings. When were the said hospital construction projects postponed or cancelled? The one at Corner Brook, the Western Memorial Hospital, has not been postponed or cancelled, I have dealt with that in earlier questions. The St.

Anthony project was abandoned in the summer of 1968,when it became quite obvious that the cost of the proposed facility was much too high, and accordingly we went no further. The Twillingate project was abandoned Vith respect to this firm. Lundrigan 1 s Limited, during the Spring of 1968, when a new firm of architects was appointed to carry on the work. That new firm is Horwood, Campbell and Guihan and they are carrying out the work now. Why was the claim settled for $39,700 less than the original claim?

The Government acted upon the advice of the officials, my colleague the minister of Public Works, their opinion that the work done did not justify the full claim and they suggested that we take off about $40 thousand to give the full value and accordingly we did settle the claim at that amount. MR. STARKES: I have the answer to question no. 465, asked by the hon, member for St. John's West.

The first part of the question: During the fiscal year that commenced on April 1, 1970,how many contracts were awarded by the Department of Highways in connection with roads, highways and bridges within the Province; The answer to the first part of the question, Mr. Speaker, is that there were one hundred and six contracts awarded by the Department of Highways in connection with roads, highways, and bridges, within the Province, during the-specified period. The Government of Canada. 2414

May 4, 1971 (Morning) Tape No, 457 NC - 6 MR. STARKES: participated in fifty-two of these contracts and fifty-four contracts involved the Government of Newfoundland alone. In answer to the second part of the question, regarding the total dollar value of the contracts, the total dollar value of the contracts awarded and financed by the Government of Newfoundland was $15,000,000 or to be precise $14,997,554.44, almost $15,000,000. Tbe total dollar value of the contracts awarded where there was participation by the Government of Canada, was $30,943,476,12.

The third part of the question, in connection with contracts awarded by the Department of Highways involving the Government of Newfoundland alone, where public tenders called in connection with such contracts1 Mr. Speaker, of the fifty-four projects, thirty-eight were by public tender, two were by inviting tenders to contractors working in the area and eleven were extensions of existing contracts, at the same basic unit prices,and three were negotiated contracts. In the case of the three negotiated contracts, one was to J.

Goodyear and Sons and the project was Lush's Bite to Beaumont, It was a mileage contract and the price was $38,000 per mile. The mileage was approximately five miles. The second one was awarded to Eastern Road Builders, to improve Wreck Cove Road and Pool's Cove Road, the Company was working in the area and we negotiated prices, the total dollar value was $50,067. The third was to McNamara Limited,for paving half a mile of road through Appleton, Again,Mr. Speaker, the Company was working in the area and a iump sum price was negotiated The price wns $74,880.

The answer to question no. 430 1 asked by the hon. member for Fortune, on the Order Paper of April 13. Question - Have any plans been developed apd accepted by the minister, for the rebuilding and/or upgrading of the following roads? There follows a list, a fairly long list of roads. In answer Mr.,Speaker, I wish to say that we have plans to build a road to every one of the very few isolated cotmnunities remaining in 24.i5

May 4, 1971 (Morning) Tape No. 457 NC - 7 }ffi~" STARKES: Newfoundland ,\,;'here it i's economically feasible to do so,. and we also have plans to upgrade.where necessary, all gravel roads,as soon as it is possible to do so. Some projects have already been announced for the area covered by the question and others will be undertaken by our maintenance crews as soon as is humanly possible Also.Mr. Speaker, there was one item left out in the area covered by the question.

We do have plans as well for building a diversion to bypass the bad hill leading into Bay l'Argent, This, in our opinion, is the most urgent problem in the whole area and work will begin during early summer. MR. ROW§. J.P_:_N.): Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to table the answer to question no. 413, asked by the hon. member for Bonavista North,on the Order Paper of Tuesday, April 13, the question is too long and the answers are too long to answer in their entir~ty, Mr. Speaker, hut I will answer the main question asked. Question no. (1) - The cost of relocating families from Hooping Harbour to Bide's Arm?

The answer is total cost of just over $180,000. The number of families relocated? There were sixty families. I might mention in passing, although it is not in this written answer,that about seventy per cent of that cost is recoverable from the Federal Government. I beg leave to table the remaining answers,Mr. Speaker. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. CRriSBIE: Mr.

Speaker, on Orders of the Day, I would like to address a question to the Minister of Justice, Is Bill No. 16, The Crown Lands Amendment Act, 1971, which proposes to amend The Crown Lands Act, restrict the right of non-resident companies and persons to acquire land in this Province, is that a Government Bill? There was a statement this moming,by the Premier,on radio,that this was a private Bill, not a Government Bill. bas this Bill been 24i6

May 4th, 1971 Tape 458(Morninp) JM - 1 MR, CROSRIE: • introduced by the Government, Bill No. 16, "An Act Further To Amend The Crown Lands Act. n ~- CURTIS: Hr. Speaker~ the answer to that question will become apparent when it is called. MR. CROSBIE: Uell, I have asked the question now to clear up any confusion. Is this buildinp produced by the hon. Minister or the Government? MR. CURTIS: I really cannot tell that. MR. CROSBIE: A,..question, Mr. Speaker, for the hon. the Premier.

What is the present position with respect to the amendment proposed to the BNA Act to recognize the Pentencostal Assemblies as a denonination for school purposes in Newfoundland? WoulC the Premier give us a statement on what the position now is and whether the United Kingdom Parliament has been asked to pass the necessary amendment to the BNA Act? ~- SPEAKER: Orders of the Day! MR. CROSBIE: In connection with the same subject, Mr. Speaker, the Premier did not care to answer that.

Could the Premier tell us whether he plans to raise the question of the amendment to the B~lA Act, the Terms of Union in connection with the Pentencostal Assemblies when he attends the next Conference Of the Prime Minister and Premiers in British Columbia in June when constitutional amendment is to be discussed? Does the Premier proposed to raise that matter then?

Motion, third reading of a Bill, "An Act To Amend, Revise And Consolidate" The Law Respectinr, Accident And Sickness Insurance." Bill No. 9 On motion, a Bill, "An Act To Amend, Revise And Consolidate The Law Respectinr; Accident And Sickness Insurance," ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper. On motion, that the Bouse go into Committee of the Whole on Bills, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. 2417

May 4th, 1971 Tape 45B(Morning) JM - 2 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLF.: A Bill, "An Act Respecting The Department of Social Services And Rehabilitation •. , Bill No. 13 MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, is this

an Act that we have done and that Clause 23 is standing over? MR. HICKMAN: No, Clause 18, Mr. Chaiman. MR. CALLAHAN: No, it is Clause 23, Mr. Chairman, I believe,in my copy and as my collea~ue the Minister is once again absent I wonder if perhaps we could let that stand. I have no further - MR • Cl!A I RMA'l : !-!R. CALLAHA'l: Order please! Clause 23 is standing. I wonder, Mr. Chairman, if we could leave the Clause standing as I have at this time not had an opportunity to get further words with my colleague, he and I have not coincided. On motion, Clause 23 stand. A Bill, "An Act To Amend.

Revise And Consolidate The Law Respectinp Socinl Assistance." Bill No. 14 MR. ROHERTS : Mr. r.hairnan, I hnve same amendments to this which I helieve the la~ clerk has. I think it is in order for me to move them as it is not my Bill.hut,if not my,colleague, the Minister of Provincial Affairs perhaps would move them. MR. HIC!(MAll: There is an amendment before the Committee now, 18. MR. ROBERTS: Yes, but I am not on 18 at this stage. I am on

section 12 to begin' with and we will come back to 18. With respect to

section 12, Mr. Chairman, suh-section(8)of section(12) would be removed and replaced by words as follows: 11 A member of an Appeal Board .,(there are copies I believe) • shall be appointe<l for a period of one year but is eligible to be reappointed from •time to time: provided however that ~he ~ay be re~oved at any time for cause."' So that would replace section (8) as it stands in the copy before the Committee. On motion, Clause 12, sub-section (8) deleted. 2 4 .i. 8

May 4th, 1971 Tape 458(Morning) JM - 3 qn motion, Clause 8 inserted to read: ''A member of an Appeal Bortrd shall be appointed for a period of one year but is eligible to be reappointed from time to time: provided however that he may be removed at any time for cause. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. ChairMan, I have soMe further amendments, please, to Clause 12 with reference to sub-sections (13) and sub-sections (20). In each case the amendment is the same, it is simply to delete the words, "subject to the regulations. 11 On notion, Clause 13 amended by deletinr the words, ,, subject to the regulations," in the second line. MR.

CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, just before they are carried I would like to say that they were amendments that we had requested and I am glad to see the Minister has agreed to those changes. I gather there is no change with respect to sub-section (20), that this would not be subject - HR. CHAIRMA,'4: Order please! I have not called sub-section (20) yet, I am about to call it~ MR. CROSBIE: It is just (13) so far,is it? MR. CHAIRllAN: Yes, I am about to call (20) now. On motion, Sub-section (20) amended by deleting the words, ··subject to the rep.ulations," in the first line. MR. CROSBIE: Sub-section (20) of

section 12. In addition to the changes to which the Minister has agreed~ that is to delete, '"subject to the regulations I' it was suggested that the granting, refusal, suspension and so on or a decision by the Appeal Board mi~ht properly be subject to appeal to a court of law but I gather that the Government does not wish that to be the case. As the Minister knows' the

section nov says: it is not subject to appeal to or review by a court of law. Could the Minister give us:the reason for not wishing to chan~e that? MR. ROBF.RTS: Mr. Chairman, there is a policy point the hon. gentleman raised and there is a further policy point with respect to

section 18 which is also 24i9

Mny 4th, 1971 Tape 458(Morning) JM - 4 MR. ROBERTS: standinr.I have no instructions on this and, as I said, I have not had an opportunity to consult with my colleague in whose name the Bill stands.

I can sup.:gest that we can r,o at it one of two ways either we can let the matter stand until my colleague can arrange to he in the Conmittee,at which stage he can speak in detail on policy,or if the Committee wish to proceed immediately I am afraid I have no choice but to say that in the absence of anything else I must ask that the Bills,as they have been submitted by the Government in the name of my colleague,stand .• ' I am quite willing to have the two sections stand and let my collear.ue deal with the policy involved. MR. CROSBIE: That would be agreeable with us. On motion, Clause 12 stand. Similarily, Mr.

Chairman, perhaps Clause 18 could stand and I do not know if we have dealt with the rest of the Bill, if not perhaps we could, On motion, Clause 18 stand. A Bill, ''An Act To Establish The Newfoundland Law Reform Con:nnission. 11 Bill No. 22. MR. CURTIS: Bill No. 22, section(3). We were asked to put in the Bill a clause to the effect that the Chairman at least would have to be a barrister of at least ten years standing and such a clause has been drafted.

Personally I think it is unnecessary because I cannot imagine the Government appointing a Chnirm3n who would not be a barrister of at least ten years standing but in case of any possibility some GovernMent decided otherwise it is just as well to put it in the Act. The motion is that the new sub-section (c), "the sole member or the Chairman, as the case maybe, of the Cornmission shall be a barrister of at least ten years standin~ at the Bar of Newfoundland or a person qualified in accordance with para~raph (

c) of auh-section (1) of

section 53 of the Law Society Act as enacted by the Act No. 17 of 1964 who has been so qualified for at least ten 2420

May 4th, 1971 Tape 458(Morninr) JM - 5 MR. CURTIS: years.'' That permits English barristers, Scotch barristers and I believe it even allows Irish barristers to be available. But I think this meets the approval. I move thn t as an amenclr.l.en t. HR. CROSBIE: tn connection with Clause 3, Ur. Chairman, in additjon to the amendment that the Minister is presentin~,it is not objectionable, just a further part of this clause needs to be amended,in my view. Do you want to deal with this sub-section first? MR.

CHAIRJ>!A.'l: With regard to Bill No. 22, one clause is standing clause 3 and an amendment has been proposed that clause 3, sub-clause 6 be inserted to read: 11 The sole member or the Chairman, as the case may be, of the Commission shall be a barrister of at least ten years standing at the Bar of Newfoundland or a person qualified in accordance with paragraph (

c) of sub-section (1) of

section 53 of the Law Society Act as enacted by the Act No. 17 of 1964 who has been so qualified for at least ten years.'' MR. CRMBIE: In connection with Clause 3, Mr. Chainnan, there is another amendment badly needed,in my view. The present sub-clause 4 of clause 3 states that"a member of the Commission holds office during pleasure. 11 I do not know why there should be any reason for the members of this Law Refonn ,_, Commission to hold office during pleasure,which means that they can be dismissed by the Government at any time.

The Government has .1ust agreed to an amendment in connection with another Bill dealing with an Appeal Board and I would suggest, Mr. Chairman, that this should state, ''A member of the Commission holds office during a specific period is eligible to be reappointed but could be removed at any time for cause," and that this is a much more suitable position for members of this CoMmission to be in rather than just at pleasure. So I therefore move that the present sub-clause 4 of

section 3 he deleted and that sub-cl;ause 4 read as follows: 11 A member of the Commission shall be appointed for a period of three years, but ia~ellgible to be reappointed from time to time: provided, however, that he may be removed at any time for 2421

May 4th, 1971 Tape 458(Morning) JM - 6 MR. CROSBIE: cause.·· It is the same wording as is on Bill No. 14. I do not have it written out but it follows the wording that we just had on Bill No. 14. On motion, amendment carried. On motion, Clause 3 as amended carried. Motion that the Committee report having passed Bill No. 22 with some amendments. A Bill, "An Act To Amend The Employment (Notice Of Termination) Act, 1969." Bill No. 5. 2422

May 4, 1971 Tape 459 (morning) PK 1 MR. CHAIRMAN· No, this Bill has not been before the Committee, MR, ROBERTS: I think it was before the Committee, Mr. Chairman, in

Section 5. MR. CURTIS:

Section 5 - 13(

b) let us agree first that it has been before the Committee. Perhaps we will have to start one again. ~m. CROSBIE: It has not been before the Committee. MR. CURTIS: That must have come up in Second Reading. On Motion Clausel through 4 carried. MR. CROSHIE: Clause 5, Mr. Chairman, MR. CURTW:

Section 5 - 13(

b) the third line. "may enter upon the business . premises of an employer or the premises: I would not put business in twice. I think, I will say"the business premises of any employer or the premises where such employer 1 s records are kept. 11 Which is also •- in business premises. MR. CHAIRMAN: Motion is that Clause 5 be amended by inserting in paragraph 13(

b) in the third line immediately before the word "premises" the word "business. 11 The third line will now read "enter upon the business premises of any employer or the premises. 11 MR. CROSBIE: Mr.

Chairman, in connection with that proposed amendment, I wonder would the minister agree also to say, to add,Just befox,e that, 11 at all reasonable times during business hours." So that any person appointed or inspector has the right to enter on the premises during business hours, and not as it is presently worded, it could be ~t any hours, and somebody would have to decide whether they are reasonable or not9 But, I think, where the ri~ht is given to ent~r into premises to look at records and so on. MR. CURTIS: With all reasonable time during normal business hours. MR.

CROSUIE: And at all reasonable time during business hours enter upon the premises. MR. CURTIS: During normal business hours. ~IR. CROSBIE: I think, if you say, "during business hours and it is open in the night, they can still go in." MR. ROBERTS: It would have to be normal, not abnormal, Mt. CURTIS• Like drug stores. 2423

May 4, 1971 Tape 459 9moming) PK - 2 MP. RORERTS: Ri~ht. l!R. CHAIRfWl: The Motion is in effect that Clause 13(

b) shall read, " Any person appointed or designated under

Section 13A may, from time to time and at all reasonahle times during normal business hours enter upon the business premises of any employer or the premises where such employerS records are kept." ~hall the amendment carry? Carried. MR. CRO~RIE: In connection with Clause 5, Mr. Chaiman, further down in

section 13{

b) says"the inspector can determine whether:..the Act is being complied with and inspect books of accounts and the persons occupying or in charge of the premise will answer all questions and produce books of record and so on, such as are requested, as the inspector may request. 11 I feel, Mr. Chairman, that that should be produced so on, such books of account, records or documents as the person so appointed or designated may reasonably request." I mean an inspector may make a very unreasonable request about books of account or - MR. CURTIS~ Say,refuse to answer any questions reasonably put. MR.

CROSBIE: Shall answer all questions pertaining to those matters and produce for inspection and so on, as a person so appointed or designated may reasonable request. No not the question, but for the production of documents and books, I think, there should be a standard reasonableness. So that, if the man refuses the magistrate determines whether that is reasonable or not.

And it goes on to say that,. 11 and the persons occupying on in charge of such premises shall answer all questions pertaining to those matters," well "that is the violations and "shall produce for inspection such records, as may reasonably, 0 so just put the word nreasonably 11 in before request in the last line. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Motion is that Clause 5 be amended by inserting at the second last Yard in Clause 13B the word "reasonably" so that it now reads, "Or"'-documants as the person so appointed or designated may reasonably request. 11 Shall the amendment carry? MR. CRO::rnIE: Mr.

Chairman, vith the same 5, but in 13C, it states, 11 a person shall not (

a) interfere with or hinder any person conducting an inspection, 2424

May 4, 1971 Tape 459 (morning) PK - 3 MR. CROSBIE: examination or search tmder this AcL" Then it goes on (b) "a person shall not refuse to answer any question put to him in accordance with

Section 13B." Now, I feel, Hr. Chairman, that for the safeguard of people who are being investigated that it should say {

a) interfere with or hinder any person conducting a proper inspection, examination or search tmder this Act.'' There could very well be an illegal inspection being made~ The inspection, if we do not put a qualifying word in front of it, might not be a proper one, it would be an offence then to interfere with the person and with request to answering questions I it should be~ questions properly put in accordance with 13R, in other words questions to determine the Act is being complied with or questions in connection with the records that .. if we do not put in a qualifying word_ such as "properly" AN HON.

MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: either would be satisfactory. MR. CURTIS: Mr. Chairman, there is no objection, pirh~ps you may put, "a proper" in Sub-section(a). Did we agree to "reasonably 11 on 13B up above? lffi. Cl!AIRHAN: Yes, Sir. MR. CURTIS: That is put through is it? Well, 13C1 "a proper inspection," instead of •an inspection." question. And put the word"reasonably"after the word ,_ HR. CROSBIE: That is in 13B. 11 Refuse to answer any question reasonably put. 11 MR. CHAIRHAN: Now the first amendment.that Clause 5 - 13C (

a) be amended to read. "Interfere with or hinder any person conducting a proper inspection, examination or search under this Act. 11 Carried. Second amendment. Clause 5 - 13C (

b) be amended to read. llRefuse to answer any - MR. CURTIS: Mr. Chairman, the Law Clerk suggests "refuse to answer any reasonable question. MR. CHAIRMAN: 13C(b) "Refuse to answer any reasonable question put to him in accordance with

Section 13B or. 11 Shall the amendment carry? Carried. MR. CURTIS: ••• , you ratsed the question before, but I do not think it is 2425

May 4, 1971 Tape 459 (morning) PK - 4 MR. CURTIS: an essential one. Somebody raised the question about paragraph 6, the very last line in the Bill. "becomes the property of Ber Majesty in right of the province and shall be paid into the Consolidates Revenue Fund.jj Personally I, MR. CROSBIE: Two years, whether two years was reasonable or not? MR. CURTIS: I mean why not cross out "becomes the property of Her Majesty in right of the Province and shall be paid into the Consolidates! Revenue Fund. 0 Really there is no difference, because it will be paid in there anyway. MR.

CROSBIE: Well, they are not going to wait two years to ask for their money anyway. MR. HICKMAPl: I am sure this Bill has been before Committee already. MR, ROBERTS: No, it was discussed in Second Reading. MR. HICKJ-<.AN: Yes. MR. CROSBIE: There is another Act that had the same section. MR. HICKMAN: And it was changed. I!!\, CURTIS: Now what does the Committee wish? MR. ROBERTS: Leave it as it is. MR. HICKMAN: ~fuat was your amendment again? The amendment that you just moved? MR.

CROSBIE: I think, the amendment in the last Act we looked .. atr-was to leave out the words 1111becomes a property of Her Majesty in right of the province ••• 11 just to Say "the money shall be paid into the Consolidated Revenue ,Fund." MR. HICKMAN: That is_right. MR. CROSBIE: I suppose we should do the same to be uniform. MR. CURTIS: Tweedle, tweedle, tweedledum. MR. HICKMAN: Strike out the words commencing with 0 become including and,'' MR. CURTIS: All right take out the words ''becomes a property of Her Majesty in right of the province. 11 We must not defend Her Majesty now. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The amendment is Clause 5, sub-clause 6 be amended hy deletin~ the following Yards from the last of three line, "become the property of

May 4. 1971 Tape 459 (morning) PK - 5 ):!R. CHAIRMAN: Her Majesty in right of the province and, 11 so that it now reads, "the meney shall be paid into the Consolidated Revenue Fund ... t1 On Motion Clause 5 as amended carried. Motion that the Committee report having passed the Bill with some amendments. MR. CHAIRMAN: Item 7

May 4, 1971 Tape no, 460 Page 1 (Morning) A Bill, nAn Act Further To Amend The Judicature Act." MR, CROSBIE: This is the Bill, I believe, that has to do with divorce jurisdictio and giving a district court judge the right to act as a Supreme Court Judge in divorce matters~ So the clauses, if you are interested in that - Motion that the committee report having passed the Bill without amendments, carried. A Bill, "An Act To Amend The Agreement Ratified By, And Set Forth In The

Schedule To The Canadian Javelin Limited (Agreement) Act, 1966 And To Make Certain Provisions Relating To That Agreement." Motion that the committee report having passed the Bill without amendments, carried~ A Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Agreement Ratified, Confinned And Adopted By And Set Forth In The

Schedule To The Commodore Mining Company Limited (Agreement) Act, 1968, And To Make Certain Statutory Provisions Relating To That Agreement." Motion that the committee report having pnssed the Bill without amendmentsa carried. A"-Bill, "An Act To Amend The Agreement Ratified, Confirmed And Adopted By And Set Forth In The

Schedule To The Big Nama Creek Mines Limited (Agrement) Act, 1966-67 And To Make Certain Statutory Provisions· reldting To That Agreement." Motion that the committee report having passed the Bill without amendments, carried. A Bill, "An Act To Amend The Newfoundland Medical Care Insurance Act." MR, CROSBIE: We are on Clause (5), Mr. Chairman. The written notice should be served at the office of - the present

section 39C is defective. MR. ROBERTS: I am sorry. I missed the reference. The Law Clerk - our copies are in conflict, if you know 'What I mean. But what was the hon. gentleman•s •• MR, CROSBIE: There was no point of princiFle involved but in 39C I think !tis a technical point. If the physician agrees, he has to serve a copy 2428

May 4, 1971 Tape no.460 Page 2 Mr. Crosbie. 0 f his notice of appeal on the minister and on ',the chairman of the commission. MR. ROBERTS: Oh, yes! Do you want to make it the office of the chairman of the commission or the commission executive director or something? MR. CROSBIE: Yes. Sure. The head office of the commission. You know the chairman may be out of town for sixty days and you cnnnot get hold of him. MR. ROBERTS: Serve a notice of appeal on the minister and on the commission addressed to its chief executive officer. MR. HICKMAN: Yes that is better. MR. ROBERTS: Pardon. MR.

HICKMAN: The chief executive officer. MR. ROBERTS: Yes, the chief executive officer. Yes, the office not the person. Mr. Chairman, I do riot know if we have some wording but the amendment is quite acceptable to us. MR. CROSBIE: I move, Mr. Chairman, that

Section 39C that the words "Chairman 0£ 11 be deleted in

Section 39C (1) and that the line read "On the commission addressed to the chief executive officer of the commission. 0 That is on page seven. MR. ROBERTS: That is 39C (!). MR. CROSBIE: That the words "Chairman of" be deleted on the last line of

Section 39C (1) and that the line read, "On the commission addressed to the chief ,executive officer of the conmdssion. 11 The same change would have to be made, Mr. Chairman, in Subsection (3) of 39C where the appellant has to apply to the judge, set a day and he has to serve the minister. Again the second last line of 39C (3), take out the words "The Chairman of" so it would read "Upon the commission addressed to the chief executive officer of the commission." That is the last two lines of 39C. And upon the commission addressed to the chief executive offier of the commission. MR.

CFIAIRMAN: The motion is that Clause (5), Sub-Clause 39C be amended by deleting the words "Chairman of 11 in the last line and the period at the end of the line and adding the words "Addressed to the chief executive officer of the commi9sion 11 so that the last line now reaci: "On the commission addresced to the chief executive officer of the commission.

May 4, 1971, Tape 461, Pagel -- apb norning. On motion amendment carried: MR, CHAIRMAN: Order please! The amendment that the hon. member suggested for clause (3) would he repeat that, MR. C]WSBIE_:_ Clause (3) '10uld read - the last three lines would read ''serve upon the minister and upon the commission, addressed to the chief executive officer of the cormnission, a written notice of the day appointed for the hearing. 0 MR.

Cl!Alfil'.AN: Clause (3) is to be amended so that the last lines shall read, 11 upon the minister and upon the commission, addressed to the chief executive officer of the commission, a written notice." On motion amendment carried MR, CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, in connection with the next clause (4), it says, 11 the minister shall cause a commission to produce to the judge hearing any appeal all papers and documents.•· Now that is a definite onus on the minister to do that. Suppose the commission defies the minister, and I lnow this is unlikely, but, •. MR, ROBERTS: In that case Mr.

Chairman, the commission will be ·removed and ••• MR. CROSBIE: Right, but still, to be correct the duty here should be put on the commission and I think the clause should read,"the commission shall produce to the judge hearing the appeal all papers and documents. 11 Theyare the ones who have the papers and Socuments. If a legal duty is put ort them, then they will have to carry it out. MR, ROBERTS: I would like to correct the hon. gentleman, he is wrong. The Act itself, the main Act says that the minister is responsible for the administration of the Act and that the legal duties should be laid upon the minister.

The commission are merely the agents or the creatures of the Government a~d the minister, and if they ever refused to carry out anything like this would be dismissed forthwith. I think in law, the minister must assume this obligation. MR, CROSBIE: Okay, you are the minister. 2430

May 4, 1971, Tape 461, Page 2 -- apb Horning. !!_R..,_,!l_OBERTS: At least for the time being. !:11\~ HA~S!IALL: Mr. Chairman, lam still very much concerned with this pattern of practice that has been adopted in principle I know, but I do want to make an amendment in the attempt to alleviate a situation, a very bad situation that can and probably is developin~ now as a result of this Bill. If the pattern of practice of the physician, this is paragraph (

c) of new

section {39a) the commission goes into motion if a pattern of practice constitutes a significant deviation. The minister has informed us thatthe mode of judgement of whether there is a deviation from the pattern of practice is going to be determined by the - initially by the results of the computers and the assessments of the commission itself. On the commission there are a certain number of doctors. I am not sure whether it is four or five, and there are a greater number of laymen.

I would like to see, as I say, in an attempt to alleviate this that the YOrds, 11 the pattern of practice of a physician" and add after that between the words "physician" and ~onstitute" "as determined by a majority of physicians who are members of the commission," before they bring this motion into playe I propose then,Mr. Chairman, to amend paragraph (

c) of

section (39a), by inserting the following words between "physician"and '"constitute," in the first line, the following words. "As determined by a majority of physicians who are. members of the commission. ' 1 MR. ROBERTS: Sir, the amendment is not acceptable to us. To begin with, there is no provision anywhere in the Act that physicians must be members of the commission. The Act provides that the Deputy Minister of Health shall be an ex-o~ficio and non~voting member. He as a rule would be a doctor, but there is no law that says he must be.

Furthermore, there are at least five members of the commission two of whom are appointed upon recommendation of the N.M.A. They may or may not be doctors. In any event Mr. Chairman, I think there are sufficient safeguards built in throughout the Act. The conm,ission~if they feel there is a prime facie caae,must consult with the doctor. If the doctor cannot satisfy themt then the commission must consult with the N.M.A. in the case of a doctor 2431

May 4, 1971, Tape 461, Page 3 -- apb Morning. or the Dental Association in the case of a dentist. Then the commission may make their ordera,subj~ct to approval of the minister, and then there is an immediate appeal on fact and law. Not just points.of law, but a complete appeal, and I do feel Mre Chairman, I think the hon. gentle~~n would agree with me, I know what he is getting at and I agree with what he is getting at, I do not agree with the means. I think that if ever a situation came up, if ever,Mr.

Chair~an, a situation came up where the commission was so ill-advised as to go against the medical advice that they receive, particularly from the Medical Association, I submit that would be grounds for an ?ppeal to the Supreme Court. While I would not attempt to predict what one of Her Majesty's puisne judges would do, I have no doubt at all it would be a good arguable case.

Let me just give you one example of the sort of problem that could come up: We pad a bill the other day at Medicare, we received a bill from a general practitioner in this Province, who submitted to 11~ for the following work done on one day. Four general assessments, (now a general assessment is a full check-up) rlinety-six office visits, and eighteen home visits. That gentleman sent in those bills all on one day. It may be perfectly acceptable, but I submit 1 Mr. Chairman,there is at least a prima facie case that that gentleman's practice is open to question.

There may be good reason for it, but I look at the member for Burin who was Minister of Health and is aware of - and I look at any hon, member. Four general assessments, ninety-six office visits and eighteen home visits. If you want the figures, that comes to $581.40 for one day's work. At five days a week that is $2,900. a week - $150 thousand a year. Mr. Chairman, with a general practitioner, that is not a specialists, that is a general practitioner, there is a prima facie case and that pattern of practice should be looked at.

But as I say, I think the amendment is unnecessary, because, there are more than adequate safeguards built in throughout the legislation. 2432

May 4, 1971, Tape 461, Page 4 -- apb Morning, MR._~RJl!Af..L: Mr. Chairman, on that I can see what the minister is saying, but the fact remains,as he has indicated, and this is the whole problem with the Bill, there could conceivably, although it would be very unwise, it could conceivably arise a situation where there are no doctors or medical people on the commission, and this is what can cause the whole problem as such.

Now, as you go,go on further in setting up the procedures of the enquiry into this situation, you do have an appeal to the - or you do have a consultation with the Newfoundland Medical Association. 1 would submit, it would be better to have some individuals who know the practice of medicine, pass on it before the fire is actually lit. Because, once the fire is lit, it is going to cause difficulties, certainly with the physician concerned,if the action is taken improperly and incorrectly and this amendment will only give the commission the best advice- will assure it gets the best advice possible. AN HON.

MEMB~R: (Inaudible) Yes Sir, there is an amendment by the hon. member for St, John's East. On motion, amendment not carried. MR, HICKMAN: Mr. Chairman, while still on that clause, the long one, the lengthy one, (39c), the question that was raised by the hon. member for St. John's West on (4), I suggest to the hon. minister that that is a good suggestion and one that does not go to any administrative policies on the part of the minister, and it is a notice that the minister should not have to - or should not have to be bothered with.

To me, the clause would make much more sense if it simply read that, utl}e commission shall cause to produce to the judge hearing the appeal all papers." Once the notice of appeal is given it is out of the hands of the minister, the appellant knows beyond any doubt that all documents will be sent to the registry of the Supreme Court without delay. Why should the commission have to go to the minister? Mr. Chairman, the commission do not have to 10 to the minister, I founded my case on the simple statement in the original 2433

May 4, 1971, Tape 461, Page 5 - apb Act, section (3) the minister is charged with administration of this Act, and my whole concept of so-called Responsible Government is, the minister must take the responsibility here, If the commission for any reason do not do it, the minister shall cause it to be done. The point is, the papers will be in the hands of the court, thus available to appellant in the appeal. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall the committee rise, report, and ask leave to sit again? MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, could we sit an extra moment or so,:if there are no major questionst and finish the Bill? !ffi._l!!I~HY: Mr.

Chairman, there is only one thing, and it does not affect the bill at all. It is just a ~.atter in my opinion that has happened in statements made by the minister yesterday. This has gone out, where there are two phychiatrists 11 think ••• 24J,j

Mar 4, 1971. Tape 462 Pagel, Morning Session. two doctors, you know, this is what I want to straighten up. Now, since that has happened I have heard at least, ten, fifteen, sixteen names, you know, the implication is it could be Doctor A, Doctor B, Doctor C, Doctor D. and I am just wondering in these cases if it would not be less dangerous to name the persons rather than perhaps have everyone in, you know, this flows over, so I am just a bit scared - MR.ROBERTS: I feel I know what the hon. gentleman is getting at.Mr.

Chainnan, I specifically said they were not psychiatrists.by the way, I misinfomed the House yesterday with - it was 88 separate treatments in the one day not 87 - the two gentlemen concerned - I specifically told the House it was not psychiatrists, specifically,indeed l did not hear all the radio and television but I saw it in the morning newspaper that the Minister said it was not psychiatrists.I think:it would be most unfair to the two gentlemen involved to name them because it may well be on the advice we have from our legal officers or get from ou~ legal officers that prosecution is not taken and - all I said is two, and I was pressed into it, two cases have been referred to the Department of Justice.

There have been questions on the Order Paper, the information is not new,Mr. Chairman,! answered that information 1 gave information some considerable time ago. MR.CHAIRMAN: 3:00 p.m. It b~tng now 1:00 o'clock I now leave the Chair until 24J5

PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY Volume 1 Number37 5th Session 34th. General Assembly VERBATIM REPORT TUESDAY, MAY 4, 1971 SPEAKER; THE HONOURABLE GEORGE W. CLARKE

Hay 4, 1971. Tape 463 Page 1. Afternoon Session. The Committee resumed at 3 p.m. Bill No. 54: Clause 5: HR.MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, an observation with respect to subsection 4, the new 39(

a) is contained in this Bill. Before we adjourned for lunch the Mini ,ster of Health pointed out that the situation could arise where a doctor or physician may not be a member of the Medicare Commission, although it was unlikely it was certainly possible. We see in this paragraph of subclause 4 of 39(

a) that if a hearing is requested the Commission shall afford the physician opportunity of appearing before and being heard by a Committee of the Commission consisting of not more than three members one of whom shall be a physician. Now if it is possible for, as it may well be, as the Minister has conceded may be possible,that there be no physician, no doctor on the medicare committee so it would seem that that subclause would need further consideration.

When the Minister is considering it I would draw to his attention the recommendation that the adjective "practising physician" a physician in every day practise in Newfoundland be a member of that committee which is conducting the hearing,regardless of whether the individual happens to be on the commission or n~t.

I think it is imperative that the pattern of practise of medical doctors being looked into, the pattern of private practise, that certainly a private practitioner ought to be one of the members of this committee. 1 draw the distinction of course between somebody practising medicine ever:, da:,r and some employees and doctor who is an employee of the Govern­ ment or some doctor who may be in the Cottage Hospital system. If it relates to fee-for-service basis,! think that(and this is being questioned) the pattern of practice of the doctor concerned is being questioned.

I certainly think at least one of the members of this Committee{and I do rot agree with the Bill but the Bill is herel that one of the members of this C0111mittee ought to be a practising physician.for the sake of protection of the doctor concerned, for the overall service of providing good services 2436

May 4, 1971, Tape 463, Page 2 -- apb Afternoon. and keeping things flowing in a proper manner. MR, ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, I am not so sure that I disagree with what the hon. gentleman is getting at, although he did not move an amendment or something, I cannot even disagree with the methodology of it. let me perhaps make it clear to the committee what is involved; I did not concede that it is theoretically possible to have a situation whereby the Medicare Commission has no doctors on it. I am glad he brought that up. But as hon. members in Co11D11ittee are intimately familiar, I am sure, with the main Act 1they might remember that

Section 4 of the Act provides for the establishment of a corporation of not less than five members and in addition there are two non-voting ex-officio members who are the Deputy Minister of Health and the executive director of the Commission, It goes on to provide that not less than two of the voting members of the Commission shall be appointed by the Govemor in Council, upon the nomination of the Minister, from a list of not less than five names,which shall be submitted to the Minister by the Medical Association~and there is a provision provided( that requirement shall continue. Now, Mr.

Chairman, I would think it unlikely in the extreme that the persons nominated by the Medical Association will not be doctors practicing in the Province. It is possible, I think it is highly unlikely. I think it is also extremely unlikely that the Deputy Minister of Health, who is only a non-voting member, will ever be a non-doctor. Again it is likely. hut if, however, that were to be so,Mr. Chairman, I still think that it would be wrong to amend the Act along the lines the hon. gentleman suggests.unless he did not move an amendment, but I think he made a point.

First of all, if we were to accept the principle that only a physician could judge a physician,we would mean that we would no longer have judges sitting in our courts in Newfoundland or in Canada. We would have businessmen when it came to matters of business, and we would have 2437

3 May 4, 1971, Tape 463, Page 1 -- apb labour union officials when it came to matters or labour unions, and we would have accountants when it came t~ matters of accountancy and so forth. Obviously one would have judges and one has expert evidence led. and on the basis of the evidence led the decision is taken. In any event I do think the net effect of

section 4, I am sorry, subsection 4 of 38(A), the one to.which the hon. gentleman just referred, will be to mean that unless there is a doctor on the Commission,the whole sanction procedure cannot be invoked. Thus~when we drew it up and when we realized that, and considered it . we said.;a good thing it would be.~hat is the means of making sure that there is always at least one doctor on it, because these provisions cannot work without it. The provision is mandatory - it says one of whom"shalI'be a physician.

I do not think it matters really if the man is one of the 100 doctors on the payroll in the Department of Health or whether he is one of the 100 needy doctors who are practising fee-for-service, or whether he is one of the fifty or sixty doctors on the staff of the medical school, or whether he is one of the perhaps seventy or eighty doctors who are radiologists, or pathologists or otherwise employed by hospitals in the Province.

I think any doctor entitled to practise medicine in this Province - by the way, a decision in which the Government have no voice at all nor should we - it is competent to give medical advice so, I think the hon. gentleman's fear is understandable but I do think as the Act was drawn,Mr. Chairman, there is no realistic or Perhaps possible way in which that, the grounds of that fear can become a reality. Clauses 5 through 8 carried. Motion that the Committee report having passed the Bill with some amendment, carried.

On motion, that the Co11111\ittee rise and report having passed Bills nos. 5, 22·, and 54 with some amendment. Bills nos. 1, 41, 56 and 60 with no amendment, report progress and ask leave to sit again. Mr. Soeaker resumed the Chair. MR. CHAIRNAN: ----- Mr. Speaker, the Committee of the Whole House have considered 2438

May 40 1971. Tape 463. Page 4. Afternoon Session. the matters to them referred and have directed me to report having passe~ Bills Nos. 5,22, and 54 with some amendments. On motion report received and adopted. On motion amendments read a first and second time. On motion Bills ordered read a third time now, by leave. On motion Bills read a third time ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper. MR.CHAIRMAN: Mr. Speaker, the Committee of the Whole have considered Bills Nos. 1, 41, 56, 60 and have directed me to report having passed Bills without amendments,made progress and asks leave to sit again.

On motion report received and adopted. On motion read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper. MR.SMALLWOOD: Mr.

Speaker, with the concurrence of the House I would like to rise very briefly to address to the House a point of personal privilege.to draw attention to a statement made on the front page of . .. the Evening Telegram of today's date, as follows: "Premier J.R.Smallwood told the House of Assembly Monday night he is personally out thousands of dollars because of travelling on government business." Then the next sentence, is as follows: "He said. he has not billed the Government for any travelling which he has done." I did not say that.

This would be absurd, for twenty-two years I have been travelling for the Government of the Province ,.,,~ my travellin _g bills are paid by the Government in the normal course. I did not say that I had not billed the Government for any travelling which I have done. I did not say, I just did not say it. Now why should the papers say I said it, when I did not say itl I said that in fact my travelling in twenty-two years had cost me out of my own pocket thousands of dollars~which it has, for the simple reason I do not bill the Government for all my costs.

I explained in my speech that everybody who travels for the Government finds in the 2439

May 4, 1971. Tape 463. Page 5. Afternoon Seaaion. ead,after a period of yeare 1 that he has not recovered all that he has pent. That he 1a out of pocket . and every civil servant is out of pocket and every minister ia out of pocket. Jou bill what you are allowed to bill but you are out of pocket at the end of it all. It has cost you money but you cannot bill the Government for it. Of course,same of it you should not bill the Government for and some of it are you allowed to bill the Government for. Hy travelling has been paid by the Govern- aent of the Province• hut lam out thousands of dollars. Please.Mr.

Evening Telegram. I know there is no maliciousness in it, I know it is a simple misunderstanding but please correct that or I am down in cold print, he said; ''he has not billed the Government for any travelling which he bas done." Twenty-two years I aa travelling and I have never billed the Government for any of it, and the very same story says bow I had billed the Government for various amounts. It is all there in the same story. But please, correct that sentence. please. C011111ittee of Supply: 24 110

May 4, 1971 Tape 464 (afternoon) PK - 1 MR. CHAIR}'AN: Order! The C0111111ittee had reached Item 531-01 on page 14. MR. FRFCKER: Mr. Chairman, could we recall that we closed last evening after the hon. the member for St. John's West had expressed the hope that I would give some information about the state of negotiations with regard to L'Anse-au-Meadows and he also referred to Castle Hill. Now with regard to L'Anse-au-Meadows, Mr. Chairman, we are at the present time actively negotiating the boundaries of what will compose the Historic Site Park of that larger issue the Gros , ~orne National Park.

It will be recalled that L'Anse-au-Meadows 1which is a very, very imnortant historic site and Port au Choix, which is also a very important historic site, will be included within the confines of the big,beautiful National Historic Park over which there was so much controversy in this House at another session. We hope that the boundaries suggested by the Federal Government will be slightly changed to acco1111nodate us.

There are one or two little problems to be ironed out, for instance, there are two families that should be relocated if the boundaries are, or remain as defined, and, I think, these two families will have to be relocated. But, there is also the question of the location of a road which now exist and we feel should be included within the boundaries of the park. We are also ner,otiating concerning the rights of the fishermen to fish in the waters that would be in the general park area. My understanding, Mr.

Chairman, is that it is the intention of the Federal Government to give the fishermen every freedom to fish on the water and this would be quite acceptable to us. They would not be allowed to explore the bottom of the sea. ·That is probably a very good precaution to avoid explorations of a large nature by people other than fishermen. But we just want assurance on these one or two points, to make sure that the rights of our fishermen will be protected and that the boundaries of the park will be as favourable to Newfoundland, as we can possibly negotiate . Now with regard to Castle Hill, the hon. the member for St.

John's West expressed very real concern, which we share, that the Federal Government, because it is the Federal Government which is responsihle for a National 2441

'May 4, 1971 Tape 464 (afternoon) PK - 2 MR. FRECKER: Historic Park,and Castle Hill is Newfoundland's second National Historic Park,that some of the students engaged for the sununer as guides are from outside of the area, when one of the reasons for proceeding as quickly as we possibly can with the development of Castle Hill Historic Park and the restoration of the old castle was precisely to give as much employment as possible. Now it is a general Federal policy to engage only University students for summer guides.

I understand that the posts were advertised at the ~emorial University and_ that no applications were received from Placentia or Placentia area residents for the posts. However, my understanding is, after asking my Deputy to consult with the Federal representatives here. that the present situation is that we have three students and that there are two from outside of the Province, but in return at least one Newfoundland University student is engaged in a park or an equivalent position outside of Newfoundland.

We are also hoping that we will be able to select a person, a University student, from the Placentia area,to be one of the guides at Fathers of Confederation Building at Charlottetown. We did do this very thing last year, and we are hoping we will be able to do it again this year. So there would only be a difference of one and we are making representation to the Federal authorities that they should bend a little and permit the employment of high school graduates, as guides in that particular area,bearing in mind the situation resulting from the phase down of the Base. MR. CHAIR~: Shall 01 carry? MR. P.ICKMAN: Mr.

Chairman, before we carry that Item, there are a co~ple _of connents under the general heading that I would like to once again raise and direct to the attention of the hon. minister. So far the emphasis,insofar as historic sites are concerned,seems to have been placed on resurrecting or maintaining certain buildings and historic objections and restorations in the ,rovince~and this is all to ~he good. But certain features of Newfoundland life, and not of a very distant past at all, a~em to be disappearing and they are disappearin~ very rapidly.

Those that are not disappearing are being caught up by other provinces and restored for their benefit, even though they have little if any relationship 24•l2

May 4, 1971 Tape 464 (afternoon) PK - 3 MR. HICKMAN: to the Province in question. I have raised this each year for the past four years. We have seen in this Province over the last ten years the virtual disappearance of the banking vessel. One or two still remain. The first year I raised this I could say with some confidence that ten or twelve or f:llteen were still in Newfotmdland waters. It is not a question, I told you so, but I feel reasonably certain that today no more than two or three remain.

Last year a gentleman from Litte Bay East in Fortune Bay, Captain Frank Scott,took a vessel that was a banking vessel in Newfoundland brought it to Lunenburg, had it restored and it is now an item of attraction, quasi-museum piece in the City of Toronto • .And this is fine, but it seems to be a bit ironical and certainly quite indefensible t~at, if a tourist or anyone else who was attracted to this type of research or viewing wants to see a Newfoundland banking vessel, he now has to go down in front of the Royal York Hotel in Toronto.

It just does not make sense, If he cannot afford to go quite that far, he can go to Lunenburg, where in Lunenburg he will find (I have forgotten the name of the vessel now, but I have be.en on board her) a banking vessel that again use to at one time sail out of Newfoundland ports for ~ery short periods • .And on board of that ve!sel, Mr. Chairman, and this is the tragedy of it and the disappointment,on board of the Lunenburg banking vessel you will find the walls of the cabin of that vessel just covered with photographs and pictures and log enteries from Newfoundland banking vessels.

If you want to find out when a Newfoundland banking vessel was lost, if you want to find out when a tragedy occurred in the deep sea fishery, you would go to Lunenburg. Now Lunenburg bank fishery was a very important segment of the economy of Nova Scotia. No more important than the bank fishery that was prosecuted out of the port of Grand Bank. Lunenburg had about twenty to twenty-five may be thirty banking vessels, we had slightly less, but they were of same design, same size, prosecuted the fishery in the same area. Nothing has been done to preserve this. Not a thing. Mr.

Chairman, I can only think of one or two ban~ing vessels remaining afloat in Newfo'lffl.dland waters today. They 24·13

May 4, 1971 Tape 464 (aftemoon) PK - 4 MR. P.ICI01AN: will not be that expensive to acquire, they will cost a bit of money to restore. But, at the same time, I believe that, if we have any sense of history, if we have any sense of preserving the things that make Newfoundlander's proud of their past, then we cannot afford to put this off for another year. Another vessel that sailed out of the Port of Grand Bank for twenty­ five years was the •L.A. Dunton: an American built schooner that prosecuted the fishery and also was in the foreign trade for a short time. If you " ~ want to see the L.A.

Dunton today, ful1y rigged, as she was forty or fifty years ago, when she cmne off the ways in Essex, Massachusett,with her dories on board, with all the equipment, with all the gear that the bank fishing vessels carried sailing out of the ports along the south coast of this Province and even,before the south coast 1 out of Ports like Catalina, and some places in that area. Where do you go? You go to Mystic, Connecticut and there you will find thewL.A. Dunton'with all her logs, twenty-five years of fishing activity out of the Province of Newfoundland,ten or twelve out of the State of Massachusett.

But that vessel again has been preserved, restored, the cost was something less than $100,000. It is quite a tourist attraction. In the final analysis, it does not cost that much money and in any event, when you are dealing with articles of historic significance that are about to disappear then,in my opinion, Mr. Chairman, the time to do it is now. And I will emphasis there are very few vessels left. I can only think • ~ 1 of: ope off-hand and that is the Maxwell Corkum, which I believe is sti 1 sailing somewhere or still active on the northeast coast.

But the activities of these vessels are being restricted more and more all the time, and the few that are remaining are being bought, not only by other enterpreneurs in Nova Scotia, United States and Ontario, to be used rather as a tourist attraction, but other people are buying them and taking them south and converting them into floating restaurants. The"Nina Corkum~which was a vessel that participated in that very delightful C.B.C. progra11111e.on the Labrador Fishery.about three years ago. The thing that struck me very 24J1

May 4, 1971 Tape 464 (afternoon) PK - 5 ?-fR. HICKMAN: forceably was the skipper said; "when we return now to Little Ray Islands or Herring Neck, I sold the vessel she is now going to Flordiat(I think it was FlordiaJ •where she will become a restaurant." Now there was a vessel with a tremendous tradition, sailed out of the Newfoundland ports for nearly fourteen years, she is gone.completely. Some provinces, I believe, have legislation prohibiting the removal of articles bf historicsignificance,at least without giving the appropriate provincial department the first option. We stand idly by and let this happen.

While I am on my feet, Mr. Chairman, I think this comes under the same division, certainly it comes tmder the Department of Provincial Affairs. There have been some suggestion and some agitation and certainly it has a great deal of merit and absolute justification that in the Mining Town of St. Lawrence we should have a Miners Museum. If you go to Springhill, Nova Scotia, where they suffered one or two very severe tragedies during the operation of the mines, nothing at all, nothing at all compared to the tray.edy at St. Lawrence, because at St. Lawrence it has been a long,elow, painful process.

But there you will see a ~liner~ Muse1m1. Some remgnition of by the Province of Nova Scotia~the contribution that the people of Springhill made to the economy of their province. Now, I believe that the time has long since past, certainly the time is now to build at St. Lawrence a Miner, ~useum,in memory of the several hundred miners of St. Lawrence who gave their lives in maintaining a viable industry in this Province. Maybe too, the hon. Minister will give us some indication as to what is happening to the Lighthouse at Bonavista.

Last year hon. members will recall that we found.during the Committie sittings in June,much to the chagrin of the hon. the member for St. Barbe South, in fact he became so angry that I thought he was going to attack the hon. minister. It turned out th.,t late in June the key to the lighthouse at Bonaviata, which again, has gre .,t historic significance was in St. John's. But the two of us together, 24•l5

~ay 4, 1971 Tape 464 (afternoon) PK - 6 ~. HICIO-f.A1T: we managed to find that key •d we managed to get that key back to :Ronavista and we managed to get a student down there to act as a guide. But , again, that building - MR. BARBOUR: We have two guides this year. MR. HICKMAN: Good

May 4th. 1971 Tape 465(Afternoon} JM - 1 MR. HICKMAN: Good. we are makinp: progress.·. , Nov there, is one more bit of progress to be made. MR. SMALLWOOD: (Inaudible}. MR. HICK.'-fAN: Ri~ht,but the hon. member for Bonavista South and myself, we did not lose ·her~ We found her and we are going to keep her and we are going to make sure, I am sure we are because we will raise it all the time and the hon. member he nods - MR. S~.ALLWOOD: We, we! MR. HICIO'fAN: The hon. member he nods in agreement that that historic lighthouse at Bonavista must be maintained and it must be repaired. MR.

BARBOUR: "I", "I", "I", not "We". HR. HI CKJ-f.AN: The hon. member is suffering from hiccups now but if he will get a glass of water I am sure that he will improve them. But these are just three items, Mr. Chairman,that I direct and co11111end to the attention of the hon. the Minister and suggest to him that the time for action is this year, 1971 and not 1972. MR. ~AR~OUR: What about Cabot•s statue? MR. HICKMAN: I was not around when John Cabot was around but you can tell me all ·about hi~. Order please!

I would like to remind the visitors to the House that visitors are not supposed to make their presence known in the House by lau~hter or applause or anything of that nature. MR. EARLE: Mr. Chairman, I would just like to fill in a little bit more than "'Y hon. friend, the member for Burin. He went so far back into history but there is another facet of history which I think should be recalled and should be monumented in this Province.

This refers to the old West Coast of England fish merchants, some of them had been abused in history and some of them had been loved but whether they were abused or loved there is a great record of the building up of this Province, in fact the foundation of this 24,j7

May 4th, 1971 Tape 465(Afternoon) JM - 2 MR. EARLE: land before it was a Province is the history of the activities of the old west country fish merchants.

Now in order to find out anything about these gentleman, you cannot find it here you may find some reference to it in Newfoundland history books, but if you go to the South of England around the area in Darthrnouth and Poole and all of the West Coast areas in the church records over there and again in the British museum, if you spend any time studying, you will find a great deal of detail about the trade which took part between countries in Europe and particularily the South Coast and the Northeast Coast of Newfoundland. All of this has disappeared and is rapidly being forgotten.

I suppose there arenot many young people today that recall that at one time a firm by the name of Duder's in Newfoundland had the largest sailing fleet in the British F.mpire. That was certainly a first for Newfoundland. They had the largest fleet of sailing vessels in the British Empire and that is the sort of thing, recollections of it and something to show that it took place should be recorded. Also on the South Coast you get the names of the Newmans, the Slades and all of these people who came out from the West countries and founded business establishments which now have disappeared completely.

There is not a stump or anything to show where they existed. The same applies all up and down the Northeast Coast, the premises have disappeared and all record of it. Actually in the town of Fogo where I was born,and the house in which I was born is now over 220 years old and the barn that was behind that house was made from the wood which was cut on Fogo Head and there is not a stick of wood on Fogo Head today, it is 1ust bare rock,but you can see twelve inch pine planks there in the house which were brought out of the bay.and these are records of establishments which were really noteworthy in their day.

They were little empires of their own and all of this is disappearing and no record of it is being kept; it is a shame! There are still some priceless art effects in these places which should be retained but all of this seems to be forgotten. 24·18

May 4th, 1971 Tape 465(Aftemoon) JM - 3 MR.

EARLE: I am afraid that the attitude of Governments, successive Governments, has been and particularily this Government that the fish merchants of Newfoundland were something to be sneared at and belittled and defiled because there has been said, and the Premier I think is as guilty of this as anybody, all the bad things that the merchants did without mentioning any of the good, how for years and generations these people sustained whole settlements, kept people alive from the time they were born until they were buried, kept the business going, such as it was, in those days and employed hundreds and thousands of people all over the Province.

But this is all allowed to diasppear, all record of it because the fish merchants were something to be looked down upon. Now in my opinion, Mr. Chairman, a record should be kept of these people whether they were liked or whether they were hated, a record of the industry of the country and how it was founded and how it was built up and what it eventually led to.

I think the hon. ~~nister,in considerin~ historic sites,could well have some of his staff look at what still remains of some of these relics of these old-time firms and old-time people and try if he can to ~et his hands on some of the art effects and some of the things which are still remaininy.,so that they could be a continuing record of what transpired in the past. I referred last ni~ht particularily to the city of St. John's but the whole Province of Newfoundland, the whole island 9 is redundant with history.

There is hardly a cove or a harbour in around the whole coastline of this country that does not have some association with the past of Europe and the European countries. I think that a record should be maintained so that all } of that does not just disap~ear into limbo and be forgotten. It is not somethin~ to be ashamed of, it is something to be very proud of and I think our children and our children's children should be reminded that our forebearers were men of steel and men of quaiity and they left us a herita,e to be proud of. 24·19

May 4th, 1971 Tape 465(Afternoon) JM - 4 MR. FRECKER: I would like to make a comment, Mr. Chairman. I am very interested in everything that the hon. members have been saying and it is, as I said last night, refreshing to find some subjects that are not controversal and two Newfoundlanders on both sides of the House are speaking about things that all ~ewfoundlanders are genuinely proud of. Now to come to the remarks made by the hon. member for Burin: We are definitely interested in the project that he has dear to his heart,being a Grand Banker, namely a schooner.

Now we have made some investigations, w~ have not yet come up with something within our means. I should like to mention that we have to progress as best we can where we can pet the most help and the things that we are developing as quickly as possible are those that give us the most help from the Federal Government. The Castle Hill site will rejoice the eyes of all members of the House when they next visit Placentia. There has been tremendous work done there,as part of the task forces activities in promoting employment.

I know that people have criticized in the press and outside of the press that the task force has not brought about a complete rehabilitation of the area which suffered as a result of the phase-down of the Argentia Naval Station but there has been an awful lot of activity and one of the most important ones is this Castle Hill. I was up there last week and the fort and the surrounding area,which will be a sixty acre national park, historic park,is really coming to life and I invite all members of this House to go down to the Placentia area during the coming season and see for themselves what is bein~ done there.

Now we are very interested in obtaining the "Effie Morrissey'' the famous schooner that Captain Bob Bartlett sailed around in. Now she may not be the genuine

article insofar as the Grand Bank schooner is concerned but she resembles the Grand Bank schooner and she is famous as having been the property - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. FRECKF.'R: I do not believe so but I do not think the "Corkum" vessel was 2430

May 4th. 1971 Tape 465(Afternoon) JM - 5 MR. FRECKER: either. No, I think the "Corkum" name is a Lunenberg name as far as I know but that is not the important point I would say, Mr. Chairman. I would say that we should do our best,as the hon. member has urged.that we should to preserve at least one schooner that sequented the Grand Banks and has history behind her. But the "Effie Morrissey'' if we could get that ship,.and the · Executive Council has authorized me to institute or initiate negotiations to find out just how it could be done,but we may not be able to do it. AN HON. ~MBT".R: Where is she now? MR.

FRECKER: In the States. The "Effie Morrissey'' is in the States. T,he owner died recently. the son has taken over the ship and she has been advertised for sale but if they are roing to charge the eyes out of our heads,we will not be able to afford it because we cannot get any help other than our own to buy it and furthermore there would be the maintenance.

Now the idea behind that mav be of interest to the hon. members,in that if we could negotiate a reasonable bargain for that ship our intention would be to make a museum, not a floRtin~ museum perhaps, but get it on land and embed her properly and have her as a restaurant-museum in Brigus,which is a very historic community and which is closely related to this very ship. Now it rnay interest the hon. member for Burin, Mr.

Chairman, to know that we are at the present time having built to scale a model Grank Bank Banker, a genuine one which will be placed in the Marine Museum~which is being built at the present time in his native town,and we hope to do many thin~s of that kind. A ship does not have to be three hundred feet long or two hundred feet lon~ to bring back memories of what these famous ships were like. I personally would love to see a real genuine Grand Banker located in it Grand Bank waters but~may not be possible.

We are very conscious of the thing and we are very anxious to do something about it not to let these old ships disappear out of sight forever. Now I would invite the hon. member, Mr. Chairman, to come to my office 24::il

May 4th, 1971 Tape 465(Afternoon) JM - 6 MR. FRECI<ER : ~hen he has a spare moment1 and I have and I would like to talk over that whole probleM with him. He mir.ht have some ideas to give us as might also the hon. meMber for Fortune. Now it will interest the hon. member for Fortune to know that we are not at all unaware of the value of that part of history which he has referred to~namely the old West Country fish merchants that came out from England. Now they have a bad side, a very bad side to them.and they also have a good side. I was reading q~ite recently a discourse of trade, Mr. Chairman, by Sir •.

Joshua Child and I would invite the hon. member to borrow the copies from the University library, tis a very scarce book, and it was published in 16659 on the activities of the West Country merchants, their policies and the policies of the r.overnment of Great Britain at that time with regards to Newfoundland. I have no real prejudice against the merchant families. I know that in certain sections of Newfoundland there is. I personally feel that the merchant families of Newfoundland have made a very real and important contribution to this Province.

We only have to know what an outport is, genuinely an outport, to realize the place of the merchants in that outport. They are accused of having exploited our people,in some cases they did, but there are two sides to that question and in l"lany cases they were benevolent people,who havin~ self-interest a little more strongly embedded in their veins than philanthropy,saw to it that their rights were protected at all costs. But.having done that,they did an awful lot of good for an awful lot of people and carried a lot of the burdens of the risks involved in·the fisheries.

We are now collecting old record books of the old firms. We have a good many of them in the archives at the present time and Mr. Gill is extremely interested in this and a nU111her of people that I know are doing just that, collecting these old account books and I would invite the hon. member from Fortune to visit the archives and ask Mr. Gill to let him see some of these books. Perhaps some of them come from Fogo,for all I know,or from other parts of the country. 2432

May 4th, 1971 Tape 465(Afternoon) JM - 7 MR. FRECKER: It will interest the hon. members of the Rouse tQ know that 1 just carrying out the kind of ideas that the hon. meaber l'\entioned•it was brought to our attention quite recently by Mr. KnowlinJ?,of Baine .Tohnsons .that the Ne~an premises, the old Newman premises in the West End of St. John's,under which and across the street at that point exist wine cellars that are over · two hundred years old and the bealllS in that building are made from trees brou~ht over from Ireland, I believe, hard-1,,ood. So we are investigatin~ that.

Just alon~ the lines that the hon. member said,Mr. Collingwood notified us very kindly that he had been approached by a number of people who were interested ;,, 2433

May 4, 1971 Tape no. 466 Page 1 Mr. Frecker. purchasing this building but,because of its historical.nature and its age, he wanted to bring it to the attention of the Government. In turn, I brought it to the attention of my colleagues, and I have been authorized to look into the matter and see if something can be. done about it. I cannot guarantee that I will come up with a favourable answer. But I just want to show the hon. members that these things are very much in our thoughts and we are very conscious of the importance of them. MR. EARLE: Mr.

Chairman on 04 and the following one, if you can take them together, ·the amounts are very, very, substantially greater than last year. Acquisitions, which is the item we are on, $30,000 as against $5,000 last year. The next one is $100,000 as against $56,000. I notice that thev are compensating appropriations at $50,000. But could the minister explain why these amounts have gone up so tremendously this year? MR. FRECKER: The $30,000 Mr. Chairman is provided there because we are under an agreement with the Federal Government, which is spending the bulk of the cost, to restore St.

Thomas Rectory as a period museum. We have to acquire the genuine artifacts, the genuine period furniture, etc. That is largely why that 1110ney is provided there plus the restoration of the building. There has been some carpentry work done this year. It is in connection with the St. Thomas Rectory. Now the $100,000, I will just have to ask my deputy for a little information there Mr. Chairman. I am informed, Mr. Chairman, that $50,000 of the $100,000 is for the physical restoration of the building,as a part from the acquisition of the artifacts of the period, the furniture and so on •• MR. EARLE: What did St.

Thomas Rect