•: oL. 1 ?RELL.'iiNARY UNEDITED DEBATE ~OUSE OF ASSEMBLY ?OR THE ?:!::RIOD 3:00 P.~. - 6:00 P . ~. TUESDAY, July 17, 1979 NO.

July 17. 1979 The Rouse met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in ~e Chair. ~- Sl'::AKER (SIMMS): Tape 63 Order, please~ PRESENTING PETITIONS l1R. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Tornga t !-!Oun tains • MR. \Q.RREN: Mr. Speaker, I rise to present a peeition from 154 residents of Hopedale in Labrador. And the prayer of the petition PK - l is ~~e discontinuation of T.V. service in Hopedale. The prayer r~ds as follows: '";ie, the people of :iopedale, had ~ T. ''· 's in the community hall which operates three evenings a week. We will be losing our television on June 30, 1979.

We want to keep television in our community on a full-time basis." Mr. Speaker, this petition was pos~rked June 28. 1979. However,because it took aer Majesty's mail sixteen days to come from Hopedale in Labrador to St. John's ,Newfoundland I was unable to present it earlier. Mr. Speaker, if you will allow me a few moments ! would explain the set up of this T.V. in Hopedale, ~akkovik, and Postville. cec sometime last Fall took two T.V. sets into the three communities mentioned-Hopedale, ~akkovik, and Postville-and allotted eighteen hours per week for the r~sidents to view.

This was done on a six month t::rial basis. Now as of June JO,in conversation with a resident of Hopedale today 1 this service was discontinued. The people in Hopedale are very fortunate to have CBC radio; however, there is no ·r.v. coverage "'hatsoever in the other communities or radio coverage.

I believe that in this day and age when we can see communi~ies in Labrador not being able to view the election results as on June 18 past is a sad state in our Province. ~- Speaker, I know that this petition is more or less a federal matter. 3ut 1 however 1 I believe we do have a Minister of Communications and also a Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs. And r 9ray that they will co-operate fully 15.1

July 17,1979 Tape No. 64 AH-l :-IR. wARREN: rith myself and t."le residents of Hopedale, Makltovik and Post•rille in passinq our concerns to t."leir eolleaques in Ottawa to have TV services restored alone; the Labrador coast. Mr. Speaker, I ask that this petition be laid on the table of the Rouse and referred to the department to wnicn it relates. ~R. SPDJ:ER: (SiliiDs) t.aPoile. ~- !lEARY: The hon. member for I rise to support the petition so ably presented by my colleaque who represents one of the four Labrador seats in this Assembly, Sir.

And in so doinq, in supportinq the petition, I want to eonqratulate my hon. eolleaque for makinq his lll&i.den speech in the House and for prasentinq his first petition ever in this Rouse of Assembly. :~r. Speaker, as the hon. gentleman indicated it took :::.."e petition eiqhteen days to ccme from Hopedale in ~orthern Labrador to his office here in Confederation Buildinq in St. John's. I alii surprised that the residents have not cir~lated another petition to try to qet the mail service improved in that eoii'IIIUni ty: !t is absolutely incredible, Mr.

Speaker, for us, who take so many thinqs for qrantad 1 to hear the hon. qentle!!tan read the prayer of the petition and tell us that the cac,who provided television services in three communities, in Makkovik, Postville and Hopedale by placinq two television sets in the c~unity hall,are now goinq to take the television service to these communities away from the people, frocn th.e native population whc;:~ live in these cOIIIIIIWli ties. I think it is scandalous , Mr. Speaker.

I think tile C!!C shoulc be severely repriiM.nded for beir:q so penny wise anc pound foolish, for s~andering taxpayers' money · on all kinds of foolish nonsense. some of the p~oqr~inq that we see, so-called Canadian content, by getting involved in all kinds of foolish, arty stuff and will not even give th~ native population of Northern Labrador a chance to look at television and to keep t~emselves up to cate on '"hat is goinq on in their Province and in Canada. 152

J uly !.7 , 1~ 9 '!'ape No. 6 ~ ~~: 'l'hey were · only gettinc;, I believe, six hours a day anyway. One of t.l1e :!;lreqrammes they were gettizl.q was the Here and Now . MR. WlUUUl:N: Three days a week • ~R. NEARY: Three days a week, by the way 1 t am toldr gettinq the Here ancl Now prcqranae from St. John's. Now they are goinq to be denied th.at. lind as I understand it from what my hon. ccllea~e said, the only c:Oimmmity in Morthern !:.abrader now that will be c;e.ttinc; esc telerision will be Nain 1 the only one.

R,iqht f%011 Postn.lle, ~akk-ovik, Caris In.let and Hopeda.le., four if not five COIIIIII1lnities will. be without · tillerision. It is incredible. It is b,ard for us to be.lieve in this hon. House, Mr. Speaker, and :1.53

.;..;.j,y 1.7, 1979 .·!..'{. ::;. i ~: ·I ::.:.u..'lk cnat t.ne s=cngest c:riticism pcssillle should go out from ;;his hen. :icuse, t.nat the 11inister of Intergovernmental i\ifairs (Premier ?ec;:.kfcrcil should reprima.ad the Government of Canatia, and the :Unister respcn.s;i.i;)le in t.ha Gave:r:IUII6nt of canada ,tor t:aiti.ng the only little o.i.t of tJlea.sure tila.t tilese people ~. taking it away from them. ar. Speaker, I »upport the prayer of cite ..-etition anc.

I a.l.:;o would like :a point ou1:, Sir, as so many of us nave alreaciy cione in the last several years in tiU.s House, that CBC serv1ce and programming in this Province leaves a lot to be doasired. In my own district of La!'olle I have a prcblem 1 people nave a problem with the CBC .?roc;ramminq arui ens CBC reception. And I do not know, Mr. Speaker, wh.il.t you nave to do ~oritn that: c:rowd. The ::~essaqe :lever :oeems to get through to them. .1:.

Speaker, '"'e have neq.lec:ted L<Ulrado.r so t~~uch, especially the native ;?Opu.lation woo h-:J.v'e been Ucked from p.i.ll.u: to post, and here is an opportunity now for t!le Government tila.t claims that i-c has such a genuine iLnd sincere interest in r:.ab:rador, here is an opportuni -;.y now for them t.o do something eo help t."le people in Northern r:.a.D.raaor, espe.ei.ally tile native popu.lation, . ..,no, in 111y opin,iQn, are being discritllinat:ed against in tile worst way. And so r support tile prayer of t.ne petition, Si.r.

I do not know, it may i::le just useless on our part to bring t.1e ;;>et.ition into e.b.e House, to get Ul? and speax. on l. t because, oi::lvJ.ously, the bureau=ats who operate t:he c:ac are not going to pay any attention t:o wnat '<e say anyway. "Wno tic they think they are ciown mere in ~ew:foundland t:o demarui t:elevis.:i.on for th.a native population? ••uo uo tney t.U.nk e.."ley are? r.at us -:.ake tne taxpayer'"' money and send people off all around e.."le ;rorlti on all ~inds o:f foolis.1 jaunts and exE>ed.i tio ns." .. ·Lr.

Speaker, i r: .lS ~•ign til:le c.i.a. t:. som~w<ing ~as acne for ~ese ?eople in Labr~or and ~ere is an opportunity for t.he governmen~ to do i~. Anc1 le~ \lS u.e..-; now 1:he 154

J:.: "f '-1 , .:.979 Tape :.;o. o5 51) - 2 :-IR. s. ~. In'tez:government A.ffaiz:s tPramiez: Peckfo.rd.) or the ;.tin,istar of 'l'z:anspo:rta.ticm .mci COIIIIIIWlicationa (Hr.

C. arett) get ~ a.nci te.ll 11S ~t if necQsuy they will leaci & deleqation into Ottawa to try to 'iet samal:Ainq dana to restore su hours - tnat i.a all tb.ey A.re askinq tor,six how:s -of teleYision on bolO seu in the eompm!lity ilaU i:l four ~ties in llortben. ~ilQor. :-!a. sPEA.Ia:R: (S~s} aeJ.le Isl.e • • -!R. :; • ·IIOBERL'S : The llon. l!l8!11ber for the s t.rili 1: of as it IIIAY be, of tbe Jllinister, IUY I say a. wo.rd. ~»: two in supPQrt of this pe.ti1:ion l:lut .befo~ I do IIIAY I pote with pleasure the appearance in the iiCua~a for the llJ:at time in this !iQUM of una -.bar for Nas!ran~P (Nr. J.

Gowiie) , who I tnink was awom in tUis 1110rninq a.nci u now with wo • SO.:o!l:! liON. ~IEMB&aS : ;m.. E. liOBERTS: aea.:r, hear. I thiliJI: tile bOn. qentleman ~d 4goree the z:ec:ow~ot was c:aaieci out accont.itlq to 1101: just tile latter of t.he law bllt a.cca.rd.inq to the spirit of t:ae law a.nci 155

.;'~.Jly 17 , 1~7~ '!'ape :<o. 56 ~-1 - l ~'.R. E. ROBER'!'S: that ~e were not i n fact too qreen to burn on ei~~er side of the case. Mr. Speaker , I •oO!Ciuld like to support t~e petition perhaps for reasons somewhat different then my friend from LaPoile district (Mr. ~eary). I do not derogate from what he said, in fact I have a qreat deal of S'Yl!!Pathy •.o~ith what he said ,I t.'link some of his points were ones that •.o~e should all heed and we should listen to.

But ;rry feeling gees a lit tie beyond that because what was really touched upon here, Sir, is the question of the television services available to the peo~le of this Province, in particular the people of the ~orthern coast of Labrador, the '::'orngat ~untains area. 1-ly hon. !riend, t!1e member for the Tom qat Mountains (Mr. G. Warren) 1 told 111e that the real problem is is that there i s no reception in Hopedale or in Postville or ~akkovik, the other communities,~~ere is no machine there that is capable of reachinq down from ~'le sky the television siqnals.

In other words, there is no eareh satellite station, no receiving station such as in aay aulls or a number of other places throughout this Province. There is one in Goose aay; there is one in ~ain,I believe. And there is no means of a television siqnal cominq in t o Hopedale so what this means is one cannot go and buy a television set and get a signal 1 there has to be this special machine.

CBC has provided one on a trial basis for reasons known only to csc , and I am not sure known even to them, but =ertainly at mest known only to ~'lem,they,after having t aken the people up on the l!IOuntain tops and shown t!'l.em the ~een and :?leasant •; alleys of All in the Family and all of t~e other television programmes ~~ey have provided 1 t~ey have now chosen to take ~~is away.

And ! suspect ~~at this is certainly t he feeling of 30me- or not ~'le feelinq, i t ·i s a decision of some bureaucrats who live elsewhere than in Postville or ~ain and do not really realize what television can mean in the lives of ~~ese people. 156

July 17, 1'?7'? l'ape ~10. c6 !)W' - 2 The remedy to it, !tt. Speaker, is not s~ly to go after the CBC, I think t.'1at is part of it1 but the remedy of it,::: subm:i.t, lies in part with the Go"·e:rr.lllent of t..l1is Province. If this government really cares at all about the people of Northern !:.abrader- they have given thell' a seat in the House of Assembly and that is a good thinq-but let them now find just a relatively few dollars to provide the hardware. There is no't.hing in the cons't.itution that prevents ~he hardware being 2rovided by the Gove~ent of the ?ravines to receive television signals.

And that is the way the people in Postvi.J.le or Makkovik or anywhere else get it and tt-at is tile way the people in my district, Mr. Speaker,can get access to the second channel because now t.'1ey can get only the CBC 1 and I would say to my friends from Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) it may be better than nothing bu't. a't. times it is not a lot better.

I can recall vivicUy spending a Sunday afternoon in Forteau in watching and listening to people give vent to their opinions at being forced to spend the entire Sunday afternoon watching a very good but completely irrelevant production of the opera Macbeth - the opera , no't. even the play, but the opera Macbeth which is all that esc television saw fit to offer. That is all veri well for the .OOOOOlth of one percent who like 157

.l'uly li, 1979 ·rape No .. 67 NM - 1 11R. :<OBERTS: to watch the Macbeth - the time is up already. No, it is not. It is a note from the Speaker. It is not a note saying my time is up. But, :tt. Speaker, the ~.JOint is that the c:sc progru. for a wide spectrum; they do not progr~ often in the interests of the people who can watch only CBC. So in supporting t...'le petition I want to say quite simply that I think it is up to the government of the Province,not simply to excoriate the CBC or to attack them.

I expect nothing from the present administration in Ottawa and they have shown us not...'ling in their time there. If they do show us something 1 well and good 1 I would welcome it, And I expect even less from the CBC given the kind of financial constraints ~th which allegedly they have to live. But what I do want to see, ltt". Speaker, is the people of this Province having access to cultural and social amenities comparable to those elsewhere throughout Cana~a and comparable to those available elsewhere throughout the Province.

So the answer in the case of Postville, in response to my friend's petition, is let this government provide the hardware if nobody else will. Let them provide the receiving station so that .-- the people in t...'lat community and in the ot...'ler communities on the Northern Labrador can have access to television. I support the prayer of the petition, Mr. Speaker. NOTICES OF MOTION: MR. SPEAKER (Simms l : 'rhe hen. Minister of Finance. OR. J. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I have seve:!:al notices of. motion.

I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask this Hous~ co consider resolving itself into a Committee of che Whole to consider certaL~ resolutions for the granting of supply to :!er ~'jesty. I also give notice that ! will on tomorrow ask t~~s House t o resolve itself i nto a Committee of Ways and 158

J ul y 17. 1.979 Tape No. 67 NM - 2 z:>R. :I. COLI..L"-NS : Means to consider the raising of supply to be given to Her Majesty. Anci I give notice that I will ·on tomorrow ask this BOuse to resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole to consider certain reso.lutions for the granting of Interim Supply to Her Majesty. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. President of the Council. MR.~: Mr. Speaker, I ciid have a not;i,ce of liiOtion to give at this time but the Opposition has requested tilat we - it pe·rtains to the amendment of the St:anding orders of the House.

The Opposition has requested that we defer this for an hour or two so that we can have a talk with them and I do this on the unclustandi.nq that we will be given leave to give it latu on in the day in the proceedings. MR. SPEAKER: of Belle Isle. MR. .!!OE~S: The hen. member for t:he Straits Mr. S~r, I thank the bon. gentlelllaJl ~or the position he has eaken and for our .,art, S.ir, we will assut to give leave to revert to this

section of the routine proceedings. I understand my learned friend and I will get together and have a talk and hopefully what will come in wi.i.l be an agreed upon version and can then proceed on that basis. But in any event the government may give notice if they wish before ~~s day is over as far as we are concerned. 159

:uly 17, 1979 Tape 68 ?!{ - 1 The hon. the Premier. ~R. SPEAKER ( S~.S) : ?RE..'U:;:R 9!::C<FOPD: Mr. Speaker, I want eo respond and give an answer tg the question posed by the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) yesterday as it related to CN and layoffs pending and so on over the next number of years and indicate to him,as I promised yesterday that I would within twenty-four hours, and I do not know if I am right on time or whether I am behind or not given the fact of it being 3:18~ I do not know what time it was yesterday, Mr. Speaker.

In any case,I shall table an answer to the question for the hon. member for LaPoile which in effect indicates t.."lat the position of the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador is that we are opposed to these layoffs, these 250 job layoffs MR. NEARY: (Inaudible) Newfoundland Transponation. ~- SPEAKER: Order, please! PRF~ PECKFORD: - t..~t we have been in touch with the union, we are in process of getting in touch with CN.

It seems to us, and this ! have in a statement that the hon. member and other !!!embers can read, that CN is spending 1110st of its time devising ways and means of closing down the railway rather than spending its time trying to develop s0111e creative and innovative ways and marketing techniques to make the railway work. we are in the process right now -and I mean this sincerely for the hon. member for LaPoile and for members opposite, and I hope t . .'1ey will take it in the vein in r.-hich it is meant- of developing the five year plan t.."lat was mentioned in t.."le Throne Speech, and it is present~y before cabinet and before a number of Cabinets committees over the next week or two, ~nd well for that ~atter for the nex~ perhaps months or more before it is finally put into place, it could ~ven qo to ::wo ~onths. aut suffice it to say ~ow in the statement Nhich ! have prepared that as a result of this latest move by CN to 1oo

~uly 1 • - '?79 Tape 68 Premier Pec~ord: phase out twenty-six different stations, to begin the process after April l, l980 of J.ayinq off 250 people throuqh tr.is means, that means or some other means; t.l!lat I ~e atruck this morning a committee of officials, a railway committee I am going to call it, which will beqin immediately to put together all the facts and figures as it relatas to CN's position in the !?=vince- t:.his would have been done at a. later date, but now I think it has been expedited )Jecause of this so~alled move -that the ?K - 2 committee will. immediately report to Cabinet on all the da;ta su=oundinq it; that -we •<laflt a pen1a11ent liaison 11)8thodoloqy established between the Government of Newfoundland and CN immediately; hirinq railway consultants, people who are expert in the business of railways around the world to give us ·a!; 161.

Ju.ly 17, 1979 ~ape 69 ~c - 1 :nuc:h infcr.na.ticn. One of t.'l.e ::hings mat we lack in tlUs !?:::evince righ.t now is expertise as it relates :o railways. 'iou can talk aDout highways anci ""e iave some, and I g~:.ess ycv. can t:alk aiJout steamships and we have some, or marine t:hinc;s, but we really do net have any axpert:lse as it relates to wilen soma.body tells us something aDo14t the Newfoundland railway anci it will cos-; this or it '"ill do this, we do not have anybody else t.'lat we can bounce that off of to know whet.'ler, in fact, that is really a V'alid !;)rajectior:. or a val.id way tc go.

So tilis committee has been struck. It will be lri.ring and reporting to Ca.Cinet immediately 1 and we 3.%'8 going to try to esta.Clish some kind of pe:c~~anent liaison with C.N. so we know what is goinq on.

We are opposed to t.'le layoff or any downqrading of the C.N. in ti1is Province at t:he present time, number one; and nUIIIber two, on a positive note, we support and ~11 be putting forward in. the next mJZIU:)er of weeks and mnths a prapolial that we nope ~.ll get some positive results from C.N. and from Ottawa as it re.l:ates to the pe::manence of a railway across this Island, not for five years or net for three years out forever, and that efforts would be rnacie to try, through. being a llt:tle creative, to lllake it: ·.,ork. 1-le believe that t:he.re are a numoer of !IDdes of transportation needed in. the Province, the railway is one of them, and that it should be permanent.

SOME !iON. ME.'!BERS: M..~. S.i?EAKER: (Simms) M..~. JAMIESON: Sear, hear! ORAL QOESTIONS The hen. the Leader of t:he Oppositi:m. Mr. Speaker, I r.ave a question for :.'1e hen. the Premier. I do no:: ""ish <:.~is afte=oon or expect nim to be specific ;.~it.'1 regard :0 various matters now underway relating to the Come 3y C.'"r.ance reiineey, but I believe he is aware - and perhaps other memeers have ~ad ':he Sallie :<inds of representations that ~ve reached :ne - aDout ::.'le con.cern as to . ..,nen it :night open.

And I am wonderinq if t:he .?remier, or 9erhaps ::.'l.e appropriate minister, might be able to give some indication as t o ~nether or not people ~no now, for instance, are contemplating a retur~ 162

.:uly 17, 9 79 Tage 69 r::c - 2 :m. J.outn:SON ; to Alberta. fllr the openinq of the sclloo~ year, people who =e woncierinq wnether or not they should tak.e jol:ls elsewhere- ;,1eople who are rrq constituents, I miqnt aci4 - I i!ll1 wonc!arillq if he could - an.d I appred.ate there may l::le constraints - but give sou. kind of general expectation? And if I could put it iri sped.fic fo:&:lll, aces the Premier expect that the veey comp~ex neqotiations will be concluded, let us say, before the and of the 9resent year? t4R. SPEAI<:E:R.: (Simms) PREMIER PEO<!'ORD :. 'l'he bon. the P:remier. Mr.

Speaker, as t:he bon. the Leader of the Opposition racoqnizes anci so says in !U.s p:eamble to iUs question, tima framl!s are very diffi .cult when one is dealinq with somethinq like the Collie By Chance oil refinery where t!lere are presentl.y envi.~nmental consultants lookinq at the envi~nmenta.l p~ceclures that F .A.C. and Ashl~ want to pu-c into p~aca at Come By Chance. That report, I think, is due in l:ly tll.e and of _July -if I can bow tc the Minister of ?inance (Dr. J. Collins) for a lSecond - around the end of July , 1.63

. _ ... -- ----· ---- :uly 17,ls>79 Tape No. 70 AH-1 !'~~tiER PECXFORO: and we have some ongoing ~eaotiations with ~~em as it relates to financability, the return on t~eir investment of thirty plus interest, S30 million plus interest which ~unts to somewhere around S47 or S49 million,which is o~tanding, and these are the two major issues as I have mentioned on a n'Ulllber of occasions already.

So, yes, I think to answer the Leader of t:!'le Opposition,we would anticipate havinq negotiations co!!!pleted with the present proposed buyer,if you will,by the end of t:..'lis year 1 ho-pefully lonq before that. ltiqht now our time frame is to try and get the environment t!'l.ing finished by the end of July 1 and hopefully li!Ore negotiations with them by the middle of .\uqust, and then be in a position to make a decision ~.,at early. I think the Leader of the Opposition is beinq !d.nd in his question and therefore I am t:ryinq to be as co~erati ve as I ean in 'l!t'f answer.

Hopefully . .,e ean qet a resolution to this proposal and hopefully it will be a positive resolution before the end of this year. MR. JAMIESON: ~R. SPEAKER: (Simms) Leader of the Opposition. l-IR. J.l\MttSON: A supplementary. A supplementary, the hon. I thank the Premier by his res~nse. I thinlt,however 1 he also is aware t:..,at t..,ere is a se=nd, in a sense,phase to all of this and that with regard to the lolewfoundland Governl!lent' s actions hC! has already ,not only this afternoon but earlier,indicated the key points with regard to financing and to the environmental considerations.

But the Faderal ~inister of ?' inance (Mr. Crosbie I has also indicated t.'lat there are a number of processes t.'l.at have to be followed throuqh in Ottawa. And what I am seeki::tq to ascertain 1 oecause ! suspect that these can only follow the resolution of matters here in ~ewfoundland, that it: is a reasonable assumption on rr:'/ part, I ask the :!'remier this, is it a reasonable assumption on ~ ?art due to his consultations or those of ministers with people in Ottawa,t:..'l.at in fact the process is likely to be one which will not 164

J uly 17,1979 Tape No. 70 AH-2 ·. ~ :!'!R. JAMIESON: produce anythinc; by '>~ay of 1 le1: us say 1 w:j.de scale employ111e11t wi t.'lin the ~t calender year? MR. SP!ADR.: (Si.DIIIs) 'l'be hen. the Premier. Yes, Mr. Speaker. When I r.!spondec! : I was respondinq on behall of the Province and the Province 's in-volvement in it and the Pr09inc:e's okay or rejection of the proposal, Obvi~usly th~ arl!l other procedures that ha- to be the wfta.%'f and o'the:r lllatters that FAC are disc:uss.inq. I ha- talked to the Miniater of Finance - (M:r. Crosbie) ill Ottawa aDout this over the last ~ or so and.

I think the preQiction , if you will, that ~ teader ot ':he Opposition puts on it - unless thinqs liiOVe a lot q Uic:ter in Auqust and September ancl October and Novellber 1979 , t11an they ha- wol;ked in A'aqust, September, October and November of any other year that I ala aware of since Canada bee: a. a nation, it is hiqhly unlllcely tbat - could see employment qene;-ation at Come By O!anc:e before DeCI!!m.ber 3l, 1979 • 165

July ... , , 2. 979 Tape 71 PK - l ~- SP~AKER (SI~~Sl : )o!R. RIDEOUT: ~he hon. member for Baie Verte-White Bay. Mr. Speaker, ! have a question for the Minis~er of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry) , and i~ really comes out of the remarks that he made in his speech in the Address in Reply yesterday.

I want to ask the minis~er whe~~er he was really telling us, and telling the Rouse and the people of the Province,that there is now a very real departure from previous stated government policy in the development of Labrador hydro resources1 !s the ~inister really saying that first of all now we are going to be going ahead with the development of the Muskrat Falls project and that the Lower Churchill development is many years down the road? Is the minister really saying ~~t there has been a major departure in stated government policy up to this point in time? )o!R. SPEAKER: The hen. Minister of Mines and Energy.

MR. 3ARRY: Mr. Speaker, I should point out to the hen. member opposite that Muskrat Falls is one of the sites on the Lower Churchill and that it is a matter of whether it be the Gull Island site that is first developed or the site at Muskrat Falls. Muskrat Falls having a capacity of approximately 600 megawatts, Gull Island having a capacity of approximately 1,700 megawat~s. MR. ROBERTS: 1800 of the budget speech. MR. BARRY: The figures I have seen in ~he annual report of Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro as of last year was 1,700. l-IR. ROBERTS: MR.

BARRY: word for it. one hand 7 Last year's budget speech, excuse me. I will take the hon. Leader of the Opposition's Perhaps we can clarify this on the estima~es. But it is simply a ma~ter of balancing, Of the ~e Gull Island project would supply in one site a larger amount of power at a somewhat lower cos~. I believe. I will have to ask :!..eave to clarify this during the estimates when I have had more time to go into t he details .

But ~y understanding from previous examination here is that the Gull Island site .apart fro!T'. oiven a larger :~umber of :negawatts would also be at a slight::ly l ower =it cost than Muskrat 166

Tape 71 ?K - 2 ~!r. sam: S'alls, but the problem with it being that the capital expenditures,ana therefore the capital financ·inq required 1 is much larqer 1 so that it might be more feasible to proceed first with the Musk:tat FaLls site because of the smaller amount of capital financing that would be requ.ized -for that site. Tllat is al.l I am prepared tc say at the present time and I have to stress aqain ~t this is very preliminary ana is all - 167

.:ul!· 1 i, 1979 Tape ~<o. 72 NM - l ~!R. 3ARRY: subject to a final report which is being prepared now and which we should have ready at the end of 1979 or early 1980. MR. SPEAXER (Simms): '""hite aay. ~- RIDEOUT: The hon. member for 3aie Verte- Mr. Speaker, I thank the minister for the information but I am not really sure that he told us very much. The ~eal question is - I know where Muskrat Falls is located - the real question is is that the project that is going to go ahead first?

And let me ask the minister 1 therefore 1 in view of again his remarks today and what he said yesterday, are there any prospects, any real,firm prospects in sight for the industrial consumption of that particular power in Labrador? MR. SPEAKER: MR. BARRY: The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. Again I have to point out, Mr.

Speaker, to the hon. mem.ber opposite that we will, as of this year, be consuming an extremely large amount of imported petroleum in the thermo plants at ~olyrood,and if we never see another industrial development in this Province it will be advantageous to this Province to see, provided it can be done at a reasonable cost, to see us lessen our dependency upon this imported petroleum and to have hydro based electricity substituted for what now comes from the burning of petroleum products from the Middle East and elsewhere.

If the hon. member noticed, this is the main plank in the energy position put forward on Sunday by President Carter in the United States. He said that the United States must lessen its dependency upon imported petroleum. Mr. Hnatyshyn, the Federal Minister of ~nergy, I noticed today reported in the papers as confirming that the position of the Canadian government is very much along the same lines as of course . ..,e have all known for some time. !iere in this 168

.;uly _7, 1979 Tape ~0- 2 NM - 2 lm. SABRY: Province 1 if we can see our domestic and our light industrial tlSerl;i that are presentl.y in the Province being able eo fuel their furnaces, heat their homes, meet their business needs from hydro electricity from Labrador,then it will be in the best interest of this Province.

And that is not to say that we will not .l)e able to attract further industry; all I am saying is that the hem. llll!l!IDer' s. question seems to. imply that we must first, before we qet any significant hydro development, we must first atttact new industry. 'l'o my mind that is still questionable in light of the most r~cent information I have which is that as soon as the Muskrat FalLs development would come on stream the existing demand, residential, business demand in this Provinc .e, would take ~P virtually the full-here on the Islalld and the new growth in Labrador as ·.re.U -would take up virtually the full capacity of that new project. so the only reason that we may =ind it necessary to go out and obtain new industrial customers is if it tarns out to be necessary for the 169

July 17 , 1'?79 '!'ape ~lo. 7J DW - 1 :-IR. L. 9l'.RRY: financing of the project.As both the Leader of the Opposition (~r. Jamieson) and the Opposition Eouse Leader (Mr. ~oberts} mentioned yesterday the financial ao.arkets look for a certain degree of securities, they wcul.d like to qet as much as they can. '~uld not we all?

But if by the time a ~sknt Falls cevelopment comes onstrea111 ·")Ur existing customers here in this Province ::an use all of this 1 and if the GOvernment of Canada. is prepared to back it.and it will be a matter of deterll!ining how far their commitments should go - if the Government of canada, I think the Leader of the Opposition would agree , were to say tcmorrow , 'We will guarantee the loan of the Province of lilewfoundland and r.a.brador', then I do not think there ·..ould be any problem trith the project going ahead. ~R. !: • ?.OBEM'S : t.'1e same thing. MR.

L. aARRY: N"ine other provinces would be seeking ~hne othe::- provinces would be seeking the same. But I do believe that •.-e can establish a case where ~e Government of Canada has qone further in other provinces in terms of backing enerqy projects ~~n they have yet been prepared to ;o in this !'rovince. We recognize it is no light decision that hu to be made by the Government of canada 1 but we will be seeking sufficient financial commitment by ~'I.e Government of Canada to make ~"lat a ?iable project when we go to the financial markets of the world. mt. ::. ROBERTS : A supplementary, 14r. Speaker. !'Lit.

SPE.\KER (SL"l".S I : The hon. member for the Strait of Belle I sle. ~R.

E. !<OBERTS: There are more 'if's' in there than ::~ere are currants in a !?lUll\ duff but I would like to ask the mi:1ister :!.f he could give us a figure. ffe mentioned that ~hen the ~uskrat power comes on~tream, I thin.~ I am reading him conectly and he said this yesterday , that •.te would be able to dispense with t:he ?ery expensive power being generated at the Holyrood Thermal Station 1 I think that was the gist of what t~e ~inister ~as saying. .~d I think that obviously has - I can see its attraction because the Holyrood power is croing to hecome more 1'70 ..-·

Jllly 17 , 1'?7'? Tape ~ro. 73 DW - 2 expensive, I assume,as the price of oil rises. But could he tell us the value of the capital investment which t~:i:ll then bec~me idle and be at best standby? How many millions of dollars - would have been invested by that time in the generating plants at Holyrood that presumably not be required, it would be surplus, it would best be standby? ~•-R. SPEJUI::ER (SIMMS): ~. t. BARRY: !ion. minister. The last qualification, Mr . Speaker, is the important one 1 that it would be at best be standby. This •at best be standby• is very important.

We will need - if we tomorrow were to be a.ble to lay cables f%0111 Labrador to the Island of this Province, that does not mean that we can thereby do away with our exis%ing thermal plants even though we would not be running them at full steam and burning the $10 million, Sl2 million or $15 million - MR. ROBERTS: being consumed this year. 1"-R. L. BARRY: Vic Young says it is about $40-odd million $40 million this year. The capital investment that is put i nto the Holyrood plant, the unit that is presently under construction,number 31 is coming in at a projected cost of just under sao million.

I do not have the fiqures at which numbers 1 and 2 came in, less than that ,but you can figure it ::out roughly from there. This is not a wasted capital expenditure ~ecause, as I said,even if we got recall power from the Upper Churchill, the Gull Island site developed ,or the lo!Uskrat Falls- and even if Holy=od were not there,we ·~uld still have to build generating capacity on the Island as standby and for various technical reasons to permit ~~e engineers to co what they have to do to balance the system,! 'NOuld not even try and attempt to explain to the hon. Opposition ::louse Leader (Mr.

Roberts) just what is i nvolved 171.

J.U y 17' 1979 Tape :<o. 7 4 ;;iiJ - l ~!A. r.. a.\RRY : in that because right now I do not know enough about it to expl.a:i.n it. Sut for techn.ica.l reasons we will need. generating capacity on the Island nawever muc.'l ~yciro development we see in ~acior. :;iOliE i:iON. dEHBE.RS : :·IR. SPEAL<E:i\: (Sir.u:.s) :4&. E. RCBE:RrS : supplementuy? li&. SPEADR: Oh, oh! Ol:d.ar, please. Mr. Sl?ea.icar, 01ay I have one more The han. llllllllbar for the St:ait of Balle Isle (Mr. E.

Rck)ens) before you proceeci, I ...oulci like to rl!llli.nd all hen. 1118111bus, at least it is IllY understanding that questions sno.Ud be brief and to the point and. I tllinX answers should be as well. SOME liON. i'iEMBERS: :·IR. SPEAKER: aelle Isle. ~IR. E. ~.tlEa:!S : Hear, hear. And I ask all :nembers ( ina~le) The hen. member for ~ Strait of ar. S!,1e<Lker, I gather t..'lat those for whom the lii1oe fits snould wear it a.nd I hope in tllis case til.at ;;nat is airected, at least in part, to gentlemen on tne other sl. ... <: and maybe on this side as well.

Obviously, this will be a fertile ~ubject for debate but I want ::o ask tne hen. minister Lf he could give us at this stage, since he :•as some figures , what are the current ca.lcula.~:.ions of his ·:Jfficia.ls or tlis advisors at tiydro ,as t:he case may be, 'iS to what it is going to cost to have til.at: :·luskl:at :'all's power delivered nere on t:his island? Are we talking til.u:'ty, tilirty f ive mill, forty mill 90w~~? What is it going to cost co ~~ve it .:ieliver= here anC. fed into the grid? Ai<. iiPEhi<ER: ~ LR. L. 3ARRY : Hon.

Ainister of :·lines and ::;nergy. :·!r. ::ipeak.er, I really would ar.6wer ::nis if I cou~d but t..~is is the whole purpose of t..'lis st~dy which is 172

J;,;J,."j 1 7 1 1979 Tape ,'iQ. 74 so - 2 ."!R. t. • 3.ARR:t : new ongoing an<i I •.rculd. be on very u.uard.cus ground ind.eeci if I a:c:t:e::-.;,H:eu to second guess the many, many consul.tants t.ue ue now busily engaged in t::ying to arrive at that bottom-li.lle f.i.qure. I woul.li just: like to say in terms of respond:i..Qg briefly to questions, Mr. Speaker, George Berrui.rd Silaw apologi.;ed one bllle in replying to a letter. lie sa..i.d., "I did.

IICt have tile time to !!lake a shorter letter." I ha.ve to beg the for.l:le.ara.nce of tile <louse, I nave not had time yee to lear~ enougn a.bou1:. my jol:l to make my <U~SWers any shorter wt ilQpefully they will get snorter as time goes on. SO.Mi:: i:iON • MEl'JBERS : on, on! MR. ~E:RTS: The question is, why s.bcul.d. we ha.ve to sW:iilr while the m.i.n.i.ster is learning experience? c-IR. SPEAJG:R: (Simms) Hen. ~er for La.Pcile. dR. S.

NEARY: If I may be permitted a supplement:a.rf question, Sir. ely ilQn. friend reminded 111e when lle aske<i the non. gentlemen if the ?JWer from the .'iusk.ra.e Fa.lls "'oul.d take 1:.lle place of the thermo gene:ratillq 3ta.ticn a.t liolyroo.i, it reminde<i me oi t..'le gas t=iline sta.tign o~c in .:: t;li:pllenville.

When tile government was floundering to spend some money? they spent ~12 or Sl4 111ill~on on a gas t:urbine generating st:ac.i.cn in Stephenville tnat: I ~.ux!ersca.nd. nas never been used. wila1:. will be t;.;1e .Eueure of t.'lat suticn• .\N HON. :1El1BER: t.inerboard :·JR. s • NEARY : No , it nas never been use<i fer liner.ccard. It was never used because it did net work • A.~ liON. :1E~lBER: It WCIZ'Xed. ..L. \:. toclk them t~o years to get it turneci on. :-!R. SPEAl<ER: Order, ple~~e! :.JR. s. ~Aa:t': Yes, to get: ;:he bugs taken out:. :·ia. SPEA . .'<ER: :·!R. s.

N.E:AR:i: !.et ""'-'" .. oember ask nis queseion: ~hat I want to know, Sir, will there be any more gas curbine :outions built? Whae is :he fut:ure of t.'lis 173

July l.i, 1979 Tape llo. 74 Si:l - 3 .·!R. s • l!EAAY : 3tephenvil..le ~~ turbine generator station in and. is it currently in use? .. !R. Sl'l::Ai<Eil.: (Simms l l!R. J:.. 3ARRY: lion. Minister for Mines anci Energy • Again I aave to draw on information received ID.any years age, .'U:.

Speaker. aut it is lilY Wlciarstandinq that ~ gas tur.bine was enen, anli I assUIIIQ still is; necessary for t:.he sys= :c provide security for tlle west coasl: in tile event of ~ansmission J..ine failure from ciolyrcod and at cimes eo balance ti1e system,fcr teciuUcal reasons aqain 1 and that tlle advantage of a. gas t:urbine ever a the%lllal. plant is that it takes IIIUCh lcnqer to bring a thanl&l plant into tha system if it is down than it does to bring in a gas tur.bine. :-IR. S. NEAAY : in tile •.o10r ld. .·!R.

J:.. ~= It is the liiQSt expensive electricity You can bring in a gas tur.bine very quickly if you nave ?rcl:ilems in your systam bLit the countervailinq disadvantage is· that it is !IIOra expensive to run a gas turbine t:.hen it is to run one of the thexm&l fired plants or units at Holyrood • • ·ti<. SPEAKER: 'lbe hen. !lleiD.ber fer Lewisporte. MR. F. WHITE: l1r. Speaker, I nave a question f or the Premier. It should probably be directed at the ;-Jinis ter of Fisheries (..tr. :,;. Carter) but since it arises out: of a pW:ll.ic comment by ~~ Premier a few days ago I thought I would direct it at ililii.

Are we to understand that plans by the government for t'WO cclci storage anits for fish, one in Central Newfoundland or on t:ne Northeast Coast and one on ~'le ;-rest Coast, nave been scrappea, t...at t:ilose ,? l ans nave been scrapped at ~'le r:D.oment? . 'lR. 5PE:.KE.R: The non. ~'le Premier • P REl·!IER PECXFORD: i do act ~now what t:.'le non. :ne=e.r: for ::.awl.sporte ;.;; ,;uppose to uruiersl:and. I can ?roviae him WJ.tn some l.nfo.cmatio;:, I guess t.. l ~ :1ini:o!;er of Fisheries can. iiy only knowledge i~ t:na~ there nas been - and tile .~nis~er of Fisneries can 1.74

.;~.U1 17 , H 79 Tape llo. 74 5i) - .. answer tbi.s bel:ter than I can ""' ;he Oe~blent of tishc-ies i~ done SOIIIIJ ·ote~~k on identi.fyinq the tuH:easil;y of <L<i4itio~ <:Old stcraqe fac:i.lib.es on tile NOrtheast coast and OD. ~ West caaat and. that tile IDAtter is und~ review by ;he :tinister of FiSheries a& far as I know and I will bow to !:he :tinister of FisD.arias if lle can acid to it. :-a. F. WHI'l'Z; ;.jR. SPEAKER: I.awisporte. MR. F. ~>t'Hrm : S~pplementary, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary, tne hon. l!llllilber for JU~Jt as a.

preamble, !4r. Speak~, I a.skecil tile question bec:awoe I thguqill:-I am sure-r . ~ea.rd the l?remie~ say a few days aqo ti:lat the gov~nt w-a.s rec:os~;oidarinq the twa fish lld.leinq 1ll1i ts that w~e pl.umed and were thinking 175

July 17,1979 Tape No. 75 AH-1 ~!'t.WF.!'l"E: enterprise- in the area of private Perhaps I could ask the lllinister of Fisheries (Mr.w. Carter) whether or not the consult:ant's study on the locat.i.on of holding units has ccme in and if so what the result of that stucly wa.s and if the government still plans to go ahead with those two huge cold s toraqe units? MR. SPEAKER:(S~sl The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. w. CARL'ER: The first question to the ?rsti.er; The answer to that is , no.

The second question , yes , the study is in and is now 'beinq studied and we will be makinq a report on it, at least a public statement on it very soon. MR. WHITE: MR. SPEAKER: member for Lewisporte. ~.WHITE: A supple111entary ,Mr. S!)eaker. A suppli!Bientary. The han. Mr. Speaker, could I a.sk the !!linister when he anticipates that construction will start on those cold storage units ~ince b.e says that they will be going ahead? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR.W.CARL'ER: We are hoping, Mr.

Speaker, that the engineering will be done this year and hopefully constructjon will start next year. aut I should point our and maybe I can elaborate on what the hon. the i'relllier has said, that we did some ti.Jne aqo COII'IIIission a study into two cold storage facilities, one on the Northeast ~oast an~ one ~ ~~ v~~ ~oast.

Since that study was commissioned and the report filed, a certain well known Canadian company has expressed an interest in coming into the i'rovince and putting together an overall pac!taqe for providing additional cold storage faciliues in different parts of the ?rovince,includinq the two areas under study by the Department. This will be private money without too :nueh government involvement. That is the sort of thing we are looking at, the private sector doing it or,as opposed to ~~at,the public sector, government doing it. Once we determine the route we want to 176

- .;uly 17,1979 Tape No. iS AH-2 M.R. lffl! TE : go, whether again it is t:.h.roug.i:l the private sector or th.rough government, then we will be having the necessary worlt undertalten. That is,of ccurse 1 if we decide to go by means of the public sector. !4ll. PLIGHT: MR. SP!::A!CER: (Silllllls) Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr • Spealte r. The hon. member for Windsor- Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Lands and Forests (Mr. Morqan) . Baclt in February, 1979, the Ottawa federal government announced a proqr~e ·~ereby $236 million -s to be made available to the provinces for forest ilnprovement programmes.

It was broken down; quicltly, S90 million for Quebec because they had negotiated and signed their agreement, S46 million for Ontario because they had done likewise and $60 million for the Maritime provinces. lJp until this House adjow:ned,as far as I can detiumine 7 the Province had not signed this agreelllent and has not taken advantage of that programme. Would the minister indicate whether or not the Province has signed that aqreementf . What portion of ,the 560 million accrued to the P.rovince:' And when was the agreement signed? MR. SP'"'...AXER: loUt. MORGAN: The hon. minister. Mr.

Spealter, obviously the hon. gentleman was not listenin9 to the media during the election campaign because it was announced during the campaign that the agreement was signed between the two levels of government. In the spirit of co-operation between the two governments of the same stripe, in Ottawa and here, an agree111ent was signed valued at Sll.3 :nillion, very labour intensive,whereby we will see approximately 400 to 500 men e~loyed over the next number of months. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! :-!R. FLIGHT: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. The hen. member for ~indsor-Buchans. 177

.July 17,1979 Tape No. 75 Mi-3 ~- FLIGHT: ~r. Speaker, an obvious question then would l:::e that since the Maritime !?rcvinces were allocated ~60 millicn,how is it that the minister settled fer Sll million fer Newfoundland when our forest industry,obviously,is more important to the economy of this Province than some of the Mariti.J:ne Province 1 s forest ind1mtries are to theirs? MR. ROSERrS : 'l'hat is all the friendship was wortl'l. MR. FLIGHT: '!es 1 that is so~:~ething I would like to hear the IIWlister indicate. .'l.nd, Mr.

Speaker, just to let the minister knew that I de recollect what was said, I recall the minister and the Premier indicating that there would be jobs created in forestry; reseeding, reforestation, thimminq. 'lbey even -~~~ed to the cle&ning uP of Red Indian Lake that we have been hearing so muc;h about this past three years. So new I would like to ask the minister when we can see these projects started and the jobs so badly needed in the forest industry. Since the agreement is in place,when will these projects ac~ally start and lllt!ll be employed in cleaning up the mess that we all know cur forests are in? MR.

SPEAI<ER: (Simms l ~on. ~~nister of Lands and Forests. MR. MO~: Well, Mr. Soeaker, first of all in reply to the first question we are now in the process of finalizing negotiations, aqain in a spirit of co-operation with the new government in Ottawa.where.by we are hopinq to finalize neqotiaticns and siqn a substantially greater agreement, greater in r~ards to financial amounts for this Province for forest:y development in our Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. In fact,we are looking at a fic;ure around sse to SSS e~illion for forestry develo!'ftlent in our Province. SOME !tml.

MD$ERS : ~~· reqards tt" 178 Hear, hear~ ~nd, ~r. Speaker, in

.July 11, 1979 Tape No. 76 NM - l .l!R. MORGAN: the first agreement signed, the hon. gentleman can be informed and ~~e House can be informed ~~t projects have already been commenced around the Province. Recently we took on approximately fifty-eight men in one of the worst hit areas of the Province, on the Great Northern Peninsula, with regards to unemployment, in the Roddickton - ~ Brook areas. MR. ROBERTS: Twenty-eight. MR. MORGAN: We took on fifty-eight men, Mr. Speaker. If the hon. gentleman from the area could keep quite a second. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): MR. tmBERTS: MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I am giving the 11.ctual fj.gure. Order, please! ! think the mj.nister has ths right tc rsply in sj.lenca. MR. MORGAN: The worst offender in the aouse, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, f~fty-eight men. Also in the Sop's -~-.Jackson's Arm area a further twenty-eight men in that area. Over the next number of days the projects commence around the Province, primarily forestry thj.nning programmes, the cleaning up of the areas where pul.pwood is around different ponds and lakes and also the clean up of roadsides, the forest stands and roadsides of the TCH and the major secondary roads. Mr.

Speaker, these are labour intensive bu~ as I mentioned, the big prograllllle for the overall development of our forestry industry in the Province is yet to come and will be coming very soon. MR. ?!.IGaT: A further supplementary. AA. S?E:AKER: one final supplementary, the hon. member for Windsor-Buchans. MR. E'LIGaT: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Since the minister knows that any ~jor reforestation, or major forest policy that would benefit this Province would have to take place on limits held by ~~e paper companies because they now.in e£fect,hold 179

July 17, 1979 Tape Ito. 76 NM - 2 :-IR. FLIGHT: anything that is worth talking about by way of merchantable timber in this Province, has the minister worked out at this point, has he had any negotiations,~th Price (Nfld.) and Eowaters as to what those two companies are prepared- how far they are prepared to allow the Province to go in on their t:imber limits and do the rethinning and reseeding and the reforestation and the cleaing up that they to this point have not done and that we will have to do and where our money would be best spent by way of protecting our forests?

Has the minister had any negotiations ~th the companies and what is the companies' attitude to our doing what they should have been doing over the years. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. Minister of Lands and Forests. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, not only does this administration co-operate with the other governments across the nation, and particularly the federal government, but also with industry.

Just recently I recall sitting dawn for at least a twelve hour session with Bowaters and the officials of that company in Corner Brook and received an outline, a detailed outline of their plans and,of course, they received our suggestions as well as to what we felt they should be --· doing in regards to reforestation in that part of the Province which they are concerned •.o~ith an,_·_ naw meetings are being planned ~th Prince (Nfld.) in Grand Falls and meetings are being finalized with Price Abitibi regarding the Stephenville operation in the Western part of the Province.

The situation is that we look forward. in fact,to the forest management programme that was brought in by this administration some time ago; that we look :award to seeing benefits- •.-re have already seen some, not as much as we 'MOUld l ike to .. see - '.~e look forward to seeing further benefits from the forestry management programme ~ have in place by working in t he spirit of co-operation with the companies concerned. MR. S:PEAKER: The hon. member for the Strait of Selle Isle. 1.80

Ju.ly 17, 1979 Tape No. i6 NH - 3 MR. !\OBERTS: ~. Speaker, a supplementary, or another question for the minister. I will deal with his cracks at the appropriate time but now I wou.ld like to deal with facts.

I wonder if the minister would be good enough to lay on the table of the House, I do not want the names of the twenty-eight people who have been hired although I can supply ~~ with those if he would like, but ~~e date on which the fifty-eight people were hired to work in the Roddickton­ ~in Brook area and I say that because I was told by a constituent of mine yesterday ~~ twenty-eight people had been hired yesterday, I would like to know when the other thirty were hired, Sir? MR. SPEAKER (Simms l : Not on.ly, Mr. Speaker, will I table the names of the fifty-eigh~ men - MR. ROBERTS: not want their ~es. MR.

MORGAN: please ask him to keep quiet. MR. ROBERTS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. ruJBERTS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROBERTS: No, I do not want their names. I do Mr. Speaker, the offender of the House - Mr. Speaker, to a point of order. Order, please! To a point of order, Sir. A point of order.

The hon. gentleman has a right to be heard in silence, Sir, but he also has a duty as well as a right not to misquote any other member and he - whether he is deliberately or negligently - knowing the hon. gentleman it is more likely negligent than deliberate- ~~· ut, Sir , I made a .?Oint of saying I did not ask for the names and ! did not require them and he is yet inferring and, in fact, stating ~~at I did ask for them, Sir, and ~'lat is the point of order. ! ·~uld ask that he be directed t o act i n accord with the ru.les of this House. MR. SPEAKER: The han. ?resident of ~'le Council. 181. ...

July l , 979 ~ape ~o. 6 1-tr. Speak~, what a substantive point of order for the first one of this session. That is not a point of order, Mr. Spe:aker, and r would suqqest that it is probably not in good fo;-m to get off this Hause for IIIUibers to 'be interraptl.nq whe;il 'they are speaking by spurious points of ord~ such as that. MR. SPEAXER ( SillllllS l : Order, . please! I believe I have heard enouq4 discussion on the point af order. In my opitlion this is not a point of order, merely a difference of opiru.on between two bon. ll)elllbers.

I would cal.l on the hoa. minister to reply to the question and that will be the end of Question Period. Thank you, ~. Speaker. Mr'. Speaker, I will be only too pleased to table a.JlY infomation and all infonnation pertaining to tb,e number of employees who W'ill be taking

part il1 the ~restry proqra~~~~~~e arollnd the Provillce in the next nlllllber of months. 182

.:uly 17, l9i9 Tape 77 ~!R. Sl'E.:ucER (SIMMS): The cime for Oral Questions has expired. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. 1-'ARSHALL: Motion 2. Motion, the han. Minister of Social Services to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Adoption Of Children Act, 1972," carried (aiU lio. 3). On motion, Bill ~o. 3 read a first time ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. MARSHALL: Motion l. PK - l Motion, the hon. Minister of Justice to introduce a bill, "An Act To l\11\end The Unified Family Court Act," carried (Bill lio. 2). On motion, Bill No. 2 read a first time ordered read a second time now by, leave.

Motion, second reading of a bill, "l!.n Act To J\mend The Unified Family Court Act" (Bill No. · 2) . MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Justice. MR. OTTENHEI.MER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. And although I am not germane to the bill I am sure hon. members ~ill permit me to offer my personal congratulations and best wishes to you in your office as Speaker of this aouse of Assembly. I thank the hen. Opposition House Leader and his ~olleagues opposite for their concurrence in going through the various stages of Bill 2 today.

This bill contains a number of amendments to The Unified Family Court Act which began, which was June 18 actually, it was a day which obviously a number of us will remember for other reasons. AN :iON. ~ER: (Inaudible) . MR. O'l"!'ENHEIMER: It depends from which point of view. aut it may go down in somebody's history as the day in which the Unified Family Court sat, one never knows. 183

... -·. 1979 Tape ?K - 2 AN HON. :·IE..'IBER: (Inaudible) . Jm. O'l"I'ENHED!ER: No dou.bt in his d,iarJ. Boweve;r;1 what is beint; requested he;r;e essentially, essentially not exclusively, but the essential meat of c this is to give a precise, specific definition to the area in which the court has jurisdiction. O'ntil this amendment is passed that is an ambiguous situation. So the essential purpose is to specify concretely the geoqraphic a;r;ea of the juriscliction of the court. Concomi~t with that an oath is put in.

I do not think that is rieces~, but apparently it is the feeling that it will be nice to have eve:eyth:inq in one Act. The other provision is that the judge would have autho;r;ity of a magistrate with respect to certain sections of th.e CJ:imina.l. COde and they deal with these a;r;eas; cOlDIDQn assault, bod.ily haz)n, committing an assault t.'lat causes bodily harill, a. situation where an accused is bound by a p;r;obation order and refuses to COIIIPlY with it, and s i tuations 184

July 17, 1379 Tape 78 EC - l :-tR. O~NHEIMER: 'Jith respect to a person bound by reeogr.izance and refusing to comply •.rith that, or wile ilas brea.c.'led his recognizance. Md the only other situation covered there is a clause . ·.rhich, after its enactment and !loyal assent, will assure that decisions or orders of t.'le court made previous to this enactment "'ill nave full validi ey. The essential purpose, as ! say, is to concretely specify the geographic area of the court's jurisdiction which. up to now is vague. :m. ::<QBERTS: :.!R. SPEAKJ::R: (Simms) 3elle Isle. MR. l<CBERTS: Mr.

Speaker • The non. the member for the Strait of Mr. Speaker, if my hen. and learned friend fro111 Grand Bank (Mr. Thci!IS l does not wish. to speak on it, I ·.rill silllply say that for our part we support t.'le bill. As the minister has said, it is raally a procedural bill to remedy some potential or possible defects '"ilich have become apparent in the legislation constituting t.'l.e Unified E'amily Court.

The Unified Family Court is an experimental venture and I think all. ccneerned wit.'1 either ::..'le operation of our courts or concerned with the operati::m~ of the law as it dea.l.s with matters affecting the famil.y will watch. it with a great deal of interest and with the utmost confidence in Mr. Justice Fagan and h;i.s staff. rllld I think. for our part, Sir - and I am surg I express the feeling of the minister and nis colleagues as well - anything t.'lat we can do to expedite and to facilitate t.'le operation of t.'le court, we do and do gladly, 3ir. We shall support t.'le bill.. MR.

SPEAKER: If the hen. minister speaks ne will close t.'le debate. :·1R. 0Tn:NHEIZ1ER: :.lr. Speaker, I move seconci reading. Or. motion, a bill, I f

An Act: To .'-mend The Unified !'amily Court: ri.ct:," 3ill :.:o. 2, read a second time, ord.erec refer:::-ed to a commit:tee of ::..'"le ','/hole House "ow, by leave. v n ~otio~ t.'"tat t.'1e House resolve i tself i::.to ::o1111!1i ttee of ::..'le :'lhole on said bill, :-lr. Speaker left the C!'la.i:::-. 185

.::.:.ly 17 . l ~ 79 . ape ;a ::c-2 COMMI'l"t'EE OF THE WHOLE: l$. CH~'l (Btrrl'l ~ Orear , plea&e! Oil IOliOtion, clauses l t!u:Quqh a, car:rieci. Moticn, tbat tb~ Ccaa:i. ttae repQr1; hacvillq passed. the l:lill withcut ~nt, <:arrie.d. On llll)ticll. that the Ccllllllit~ rise, report pJ:Oqress and ask leave to sit aqain, Mr . Spealt!lr ret=ed. to the Chair. 186 ..

July 17, 1979, Tape 79, Page 1 -- apb MR. SPEAKER: MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt) : The hon. the Chairman of Committees. Mr. Speaker, the Committee of the Whole have considered the matters to them referred and have directed me to report Bill No. 2 without amendment and ask leave to sit again. On motion, report received and adopted, Bill ordered read a ~~ird time now, by leave. On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Unified Family Court Act," read a third time; ordered passed and its title be as on the Order Paper. (Bill No. 2). MR. MARSHALL: Order 1. MR. SPEAKE:R(Simms): Order 1, the Address in Reply.

The hen. the Member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I am forced to change my strategy, my approach. I rose in my place yesterday ready to lambaste the government, ready to really level a blast- · at the government on this Speech from the Throne which is quite out of character with this hon. member, particularly with reference to this gracious Speech from the Throne. But it all resulted from a misunderstanding, Mr. Speaker, a total misunderstanding. The problem was you see, and most hon. members will recall, I could not rationalize the statements that I heard the Premier make out of context.

Because I was not listening to the total thing I could not rationalize th~ statements that he was making on opening day when he was talking about - and let me say the reason why I could not listen to it, and the Premier should take note . of this, the reason why I could not listen attentively to the Premier was because of these lights ; they were shining at me. Now, obviously, han. members will know that the lights do not affect my ears, but they are a distraction. I could not look at the Premier and I was also blind, sort of thing, I could not see, --

July li, 1979, Tape 79, ?age 2 -- apb MR. LUSH: and always aware that by accident, by scanning the hen. the Leader of the Opposition or the hon. House Leader, by accident they might pick me up on television and I did not want to be going through any gestures that an hon. member should not be going through. Anyway, the ~~ing was I lost the content of what the Premier was saying so I could not rationalize these strange, weird, wonderful, illusive and evasive statements that I was hearing, such statements as, 'Any reasoned Newfoundlander, enlightened Newfoundlander will see that we have another chance to make it.

We have another chance to do things correctly. We have another chance to do things right,' and carried on: 'Mr. Speaker, may I be so bold as to suggest as a Newfoundlander that we are now on the threshold of the Lower •Churchill, we are now on the Threshold, perhaps, of Come By Chance'. So all through he was talking about another chance and on the threshold and the new era. When I read this there was no way I could rationalize this statement with these kinds of statements, the ushering in of a new era, I could not see this at all.

But anyway, I could not understand this at all, how Newfoundland, the Province of Newfoundland, how we were going to be ushered into a new era when we were going to see this Province develop. I could not see this at all. When one realizes that in the Western World we are gripped in the claws of agonized inflation with little economic growth and rampant unemployment, I could not rationalize these statements that the Premier was making. But anyway, last night I took it upon myself to read the full speech and now I must say that I have the 188

July 17, 1?79 Tape '10. 80 ow - 1 ~R. T. LUSH: solution. I know what the Premier was talking about,when he talked about the new era. I know what the , Premier was talking ~ut when he was making these statements upon the thresnold and the eajor breakthrouqh,when he was talking about 'we have got anot.'lar chance: I know what he was talkinc;r about and this makes this,of course,a Throne Speech with a dif!erence •. I believe all hen. members should apoloqize because we have been tal.kinq about t:lle sameness of these documents • And aqain, when the hen.

Leader of ~'le Opposition yesterday was commenting. on llhe lanquaqe used in this particular Throne Speech and was commendinq the autho~ 1 three or !bur thaaqhts came to me.! was tempted to sav t~at the author is probably not in the House of Assembly because he is the author that wrote it in 1972. ~ow I do not think this was a case of precise plagiarism but a little bit of improvisation iUld this sort of thing.

And then when he mentioned that it was lyrical my instant reaction was that iu was also comical that this group had the audacity to present this same document to .us so many times • But anyway as I have said, it was a grave mistake, that this is a Throne Speech .,i~'l a. difference. Again the difference is, if we can believe the utterances in the Throne Speech and we must, then the developments , the proposals put forward in this Throne Speech are put forward with some positiveness, they are put forward with some certainity, there seems to be no doubt.

But let us first ~f all look at the kinds of proposals that the Budget talks about and we will come back to the solution. And the solution too, of course, was the probler. why this Province was net developing. The solution •,ras also the &?rob::.em. In other words J they removed the s>roblem they got the solution. But anyway we will get back to that .• And to think we have been accusing them wroncrl ·/ as to why ~,.is Province was not developinq. You will recall tha.~ we have s~id that they did not have the ?hiloso~hy thought out. They had a few ideas and a few concepts that kept ~peating, that 189

July 11, 1979 '!'ape ~!o. 90 "'w - 2 ~'L T. LUSH: kept coming un in Budget Speeches all the time but it was not a well thought out philosophy because a well thouqh.t out philosophy has the 1 wh.at 1 and 1 how 1 figu:red ou~. In terms of our resource development it means, 'What resources do we have? What.is the resource potential of this Frovince> How ~o .,~ go about developing it' How many jo.Cs can the reosources of this Province provide for our people? What is the full potential..

We kept saying that that was the kind of th.ing, the kind of detail tilat the government had not gOtten into :,ut obviously they had. They have gotten into that because that was not the reason at all why,over the past seven years~ they have not perfor.med on any of these Throne Speeches :.r their major thrust to develop the Province in their major thrust to develoc- a sound economic base for the Province. So, Mr. Speaker, this is a Throne Speech with a difference. So, let us first of all ~ook at some of ~~e problems to which it addresses itself.

The Throne Speech goes back in history to identify some of t.lle problems that we have had •.rith respect to the development of this Province. !t goes back to 1934 to ~~e -~lree Report and there,of course,it goes along wi~~ the conclusion that the state·of political life in the ?rovince or ~~e state of the political process within the House of "<;sembly and the state of the health of the econonmy were-clinlced, t.~ere was a relationship between them, there was a correlation.

And,of course, to take care of this problem the Throne Speech brings in two major reforms 1 or they will be presenting e-.o major reforms before t.~e House of Assembly to rid ourselves of the kind of unsavoryness that was at the root of our economic proble~s back in 1934 and,of course) t.~e suggestion that some of t~~~ are still around in 1979. So these t·.o10 major reforms are to clean up this unsavoryness wi~~in ?Qlitical life. 190

July 17, 1979 Tape 81 l?K - 1 ~r. Lush: I am not going to comment much on ~hese two reforms. We, of course, do not know what the new Elections Act will say, but no doubt it will do something to, I think, improve political life in this Province as will, also, the rule ~anges in the !:louse of ~sembly. I think they will certainly help to enhance debate and certainly to improve the decorum and to make the career of politicians a little more respectable.! expect. But I think more needs to be done.

I think that \ to get down to the deep insidious problem that The Amulree Commission was referring to7 I think more needs to be done. I think we have to look in terms of making working conditions better for members. I think we have to look in ta:cns of making the salary more attractive. I think these are things that we have to do. we have to go, I think, the whole gamut if we want to cure this problem. But, Mr. Speaker, the second problem is the key one I think to this whole document.

And it says "The second great problem "that faced our forefathers in 1934 was the lack of a sound economic base." And the document goes on to say, "That the problems that they faced at that time will sound familiar even to the young people. Our economy was overly dependent upon one industry, the salt fish industry", and it goes on to say, "outside of some small commerical interest:• But, Mr. Speaker, of course, that was not always the problem. When our economy gradually improved and expanded, other problems,obviousl~ became evident.

And the other problem, of course, was ~,e one related to having a philosophy, having a strategy for the development of the resources. Well,we have been saying ~hat this government did not have the philosophy, that they did not have the strategy and that is why we thought that we were not developing these plans that were being enunciated year after year. And as I said, Mr. Speaker, '"e did have t.'1.e strategy ,and !.ere in this document now we have enunciated seven basic strategies and a five year plan. 1.9:1

.JlllY 17 , 1979 Tape 81 P!< - 2 ~r. tush: And, !·tr. Speaker, ':~t is the plan, tha-c is the basic plan for ~~e economic development of the Province. And as I have said before,~~e differe~ce is that it looks like it is going to be done, it lo.oks like that we are not going to be able to come back here next year and accuse the government of. bringing in a document like tl"..is on which there was no action taken.

It looks like it is going to be done beeaWie it sayst "However my government is confident that the strategies will within five years secure tile Province's economic foundation and provide both employment and the tax base upon which our public services pr:aaant and planned can be supported." Notiee the use of the ved:l, Mr. Speaker, it says, "will secure"., :tt does not say that will make approaches for its securing, or anything like that, it is very definite, "•.<i.ll secure". This five year plan will secure this Province's economic foundation. Well, Mr.

Speaker, so that is the basic plan for the development of t.'ti.s Province, its five year plan l.lndergirded by the seven basic str.a tegies. And, Mr. Speaker, the ingredient that was 1 missing from all of this, and we did not recognize it, the .1.nqredient ~'lat was missing all the time and the Premier goes on to say it, says it, and very clearly here, and he talks about; And this is where ~~e key is as to whether Newfoundland's future can be secured. Obviously, Mr. Speaker, it is in federal-provincial relations. 192

J"ul. y 1 7, 19 79 Tape 82 E:C - l !<IR. LUSH: ·rrnat was tb.e main election strategy of t::J.e present c;over.unent now, of course, o! 2-laving two governments of the same politica.l. persuasion, the P .C. Government in Ottawa and tile P.C. Government in Newfounciland. And now they have arrived at that ::,u.ssful state. It is not unprecedented in Canada. We have had the four reigns undar our dalllccra.tic system now,with the exc:lusion of c.'le llew Democratic Party, that we cm1 have. We have :lad a provincial LJ.l)eral Government and a federal P. c.

Gover.unent; we have b.ad a federal Wberal Government and a. provincial P .c. Gove.rnment. We b.ave had a Liberal/ Wberal - two Wberals - and now we have the two P.C.s. so they aspired to that. They h.ava gotten there, Mr. Speaker. And I de not know whet.'ler indeed, there is any requiru.mt in the law in Canada which says t!lat in order for a Province to receive preferential treatmant or just treatment or fair treatment even, that both governments, the federal gove:mment and the provincial government have eo b& of the same political persuasion. I do not k.now if there is any law that says that.

Indeed, I would think thzoughout mst of Canada that for the IIIDSt

part it is usually different. Right now we are into a little bit of an imbalance and, of course, this means, I suppose, that everything is going :.o be 01uc:.'1 br.i.ghter for this Province so it is going to be easier now, the easiest time in our history to gat the things we want, because we have so many P.C. Parties. And when the Prime Minister of canada irons out tne international proi:llems related to emi:lassies and so on and gets Petrocan ai:lolished and all of this sort of thing, ha will be ai:lle to come down, sit down with the Premiers and get working on this proposal by t:he provincial government.

Well, Mr. Speaker, very seriously, I do net k.now hew it is going to work. Obviously, because we have a solution, as r have said, the blame for noe get.ting through on all of these serategies all the time -,as the federal government. That ~o~as t.'le blaa1e. That was ~o~here the bla111e lay. We did not know it. Bec:ause if r k.new it I would have been saying a. few thin ~ s. But I did not know it. I did noc know ~e. 193

,;"uly 17' 1979 Tape 82 l::C - 2 ~- !.:JSii: But anyway, Mr. Speaker, they have arrived at t.'lat blissful stata. I do not know how it is going to operate, I really d.o not. J..'f liON. :-~EMBER: A bunch of dreamers. MR. x:.usa: If we can go by the performance of - !iow can I put it? - if we can go by the perfc:aunce of this !? . C. Government over tha past seven years and use t.'lat as a yardstick and extrapolate that in a ratio of one federal P.C. ?arty t:o one provincial ?.C. !?arty, t."len I think we would come up wit:h an equation - MR. FLIGHT: MR. LUS~: MR. FLIGHT: Equalling zero • that is equal to - zero.

Zero. MR. LUSH: - spectacular and colossal ineptitude, Mr. Speaker. !lut, Mr. Speaker, very seriously, I do not !<.now how it is gci."lg to work but let ::ne say t.'lis I have some concerns over cllis particular situation.

What I think cllat the provincial government have done, possi.bly WlWittingly because we all want t:o get ele~ed - and t:."'.e hen • .ronn Crosbie here ·.fflic.'l I may refer to in a. illOment, makes a. statement that sometimes '"'e ..,.oulci do just about anyt:hing t:o get elected. 'll'e want t:o. get elected and;oof course ... in our enthusiasm in getting elected we do some and say some things that will come back to haunt us. And I believe "'hat you have dane is that you have placed a. great challenge and a. great responsibility on your federal cciunterparts.

We have also raised t.'l.e expectancy level of the people of this Province. I will suggest to you that never before in our history will the people of this !?rovince look t:o Ottawa as they will in t.'le next to"'c or three years • Never before will they look co ~~is federal government or its performance to see what it will do. ~lever before will so much. be expected of two ::abinet miniscers as ·,..ill be expected of the two :1.on. Cabinet ministers ':hat we now :.ave serving for us • Never before. 194

_ _:.__- __ _ July 17, 1979 Tape No. 83 NM - l MR. LUSH: And , Mr. Speaker, t...'la t is a concern that we have placed an unreal task in front of the federal counter­ parts. Well, I am wondering, Mr. Speaker, how the two federal ministers will react to this plan, because it says here again, it is pretty definite, there is no ifs, ands, bu~ and maybes, it says, "My government is confident that the Government of Canada will be sympathetic to this five year plan and ·~1 place its financial resources behind the projects we will propose, and they •rill place t.~e finances there." Mr.

Speaker, it is very, veri clear but I am wondering how the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. McGrath) r and the Minister of Finance (Mr. Crosbie) will vl.ev this particular doctrine. I have my reasons for saying that. You see the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.

McGrath ) was the unofficial spokesman, the !lllofficial critic of the labour force statistics over the past number of years and come ever day or every month when these statistics ·~e released you heard the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. l'lcGrath ) , the present Minister of Fisheries on of course criticizing the federal government for the tremendous high rate of unemployment in Newfoundland, criticizing the federal government for the disgraceful level of unemployment in this Province. And now, Mr. Speaker, the fact that this is going to be a proposal to Ottawa causes me to look at it a little differently.

This is the total package, is it, that this government is going after Ottawa for: This is the total package, 40,000 j obs. Certainly goodness che Minister of Fisheries cannot agree •,o~it.'l. that. E!e cannot agree •.rit.'l only giving this Province 40,000 jobs which I pointed out yesterday which at the end of five years will bring, if it is all in place, will only result in bringing this Province's rate of unemployment down to ten per cent, which will still be the highest in Canada. Certainly t...'l.e hon. Minister of Fisheries cannot accept that. He cannot accept that as an acceptable level of unemployment.

He cannot 195

July 17, 1979 Tape ~o. 83 GH-2 l1R. LUSH: do it. He cannot accept that, so I am expecting the Ministe~ of Fisheries to get this report back and tell ~~e hon. Premier to beef it up, to beef it up. That is not enough jobs. That is not enough jobs - 40,000 - that is not enough jobs.

I am >londering too, of course, whether the strategy and the philosophy has really been thought out. we cannot tell here, of course, because it is verJ vague and maybe the Premier has e~erything all thought out, but one wonders when we see the vacillating back and forth, when we see the swinging from one policy to the other as we have seen with respect to the blueprint for development. N'ow I liked tha~ l:lluaprint for development. I liked that a lot better than this particular proposal. I really did. I tbcuqht it was a better documented case. It looked at all the sectors.

It looked at all the sectors in Newfoundland with all the jobs that could be created in these. I know it is only a rough ':hing in the Throne Speech, but I liked the blueprint for development. I thought ~'!at was a very good document. I liked some of its policies that it enunciated with respect to transportation. 1'ransportation - that 'N'as an interesting policy it enunciated there, that all roads were going to be reconstructed, built and paved on the l:lasis of resource potential. That is what they were going to do on the basis of resource potential.

It was a good policy and I am wondering now whether that is scrapped. We talked about a transportation policy here, but we have used no rationale. Now, Mr. Speaker, I am just wondering, as I have said, how the two ministers will react to this. I could ql.:Ote from the famous speech that was given by the hon. Mr. Crosbie when he was the ~nister here in this hen. House. I could give you some quotes frcm ~'lat famous speech of gloom and doom, but I could give you some real quotes from there to tell you 196

Jt.lly 17, 1979 Tape NO. 84 GH-1 :<!R.. LUSH: what he thought of the very elements t:.'lat are listed in this five-point program for fisheries. Of course, he talks about the fisheries, the greatest pot:ential, but he talks about the involvement of Ottawa. Now, of course, the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. W. carter), I guess he is going to be going to Ottawa for some kind· of control. Over the past three or four years he has been talking about the licensing system and how that is sort of all in a mess.

Well, I expect: he is going to be going after Ottawa to try to get some control t:.l-tereJ another big demand on the federal government. aut these fellows, this is what they have been asking for, they have been asking for control.~e talk about t:.~e hydro development, and Mr.

Crosbie again in this document here suggests that the only way that we could get that straightened out and settled away, the Upper Churchill 1 of course, was wit:.l-t the federal government intervention, another responsibility that must fall over to the government's counterparts • And he also talked about the forestry and again, of course, there was the necessity for Ottawa to be involved ~ that-And we talked about the mining to which case Mr. Crosbie said that the Province was not getting as much money as it should and anyway the whole thing ended up by almost stating Newfoundland to be a disaster area.

So we are wondering hew Mr. Crosbie is going to react to this document. I believe that he ·rill act fairly . I believe he will act fairly and in accordance wit.~ the way that any finance minister would take a document from a province to analyze. Well, Mr.

Speaker, just to reiterate what I believe, what I believe, the concern that I express now that I know what the Premier was talking about when he mentioned that we are about to =e 1.1shered into a new era, when he talked about the last chance, ""hen he tal.'<ed about the fact that '"'e were going to develop the economic base of this Province, now that I know what he was referring to, again , as I say , the concern that I have is how t his is going to affect the expectancy level of our people, the kinds of demands that 197

July 17, 1979 Tape No. 84 GH-2 liR. LUSH: it is going to place on the :ederal government, the kind of commitments that it is going to place on the provincial government and, of course, the very negative effect, the very negative effect should this plan not materialize, the very negative effect that has "been created by all of the furore that has been caused and all of the kerfuffle and all of the excitement of having two governments of the same political persuasion, federally and provincially. Now, Mr. Speaker, I wish the government '"'ell.

I certai.nly hope t:bat we can get those things and let us affirm once again that this Opposition will be supportive of these policies, and not only supportive, Mr. Speaker, that we will be active participants :. be10=ause where the development of Newfoun~and is concerned, we are concerned with developing job opportunities for our people, where we are concerned about providing public services to our people and we are looking into this kind of thing. Hon. members on this side of the House are concerned, and we do not want to be passive observers of a new era.

We want to be active participants and we want to be supporters and we want to be supportive of these policies. these concerns. Thank you. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Mr. Speaker, I just wanted to express Hear , hear! 198

J\lly 17, 1979 :-t.'l.. :>?EAKER: (Simms) S~~ HON. M&~ERS: MR. d. 3ARl<ET'l' : SD - l The hon. member for St. John's West. dear , 11ear. t1r. Speaker, aon. members, I feel very honollrEKi and. pr.ivlleqad. to nave this opport~m.ity to aliciress th.is non. iiollSe as ~•e newly elec:teci meJIIQer for St. John' s West. I wo\l.lc. liKe to extenci my personal. congratulat.ions to you, Mr. Sj?ea.ker ,on. yo11r elec:t.ion to tolis privileged posit.ion anli as we.ll to congratulate my colleagues and friends on QOth silies of ~~e aol.lse for ~~e.ir success in the recent elect.ion.

I also anli personally .:eel very hono11red to nave been elected. to suc:h an historic: assembly and to nave the opportunity and the privilage to make whatever contrlllut.ion I am capable of on bena.l:f of the citizens of St. John's \'iest and to thank tilem sincerely for thei.r support given to me. My political backgrouna. is ~f ver:f short lillrat.ion but I look fo.rwa..rli, l1r. Speaker, to many years as a member of the government side of this iiollSe.

I woulli be remiss if I d.id not state aere that .i..f it ilad not oeen for my being abl~ to relate and identify so closely wi til the Premier, '"'i til his enthllSiasm an<i his policies,I ·would not have given second ~llght to seeking a seat in ti1is !iollSe. T!1e first col,lple of days situng i1ere would seem to suggest that there is indeeci an attempt on both sides of tl'lis douse towards a mature anli meaningful attempt ana approach to govern.i.r.g our Province on a ullSinessl~e basis. I would congratulate, Mr. Speaker, t.'le ._eader of the Opposl. tion (i-lr. D.

Jamieson) and the members of hls party for their apparent desire to ilelp make government work and not, as is so often the case, object for the sake of objecting. I would hope that we, A.r. 5peake.r, ar~ always mindful of c:.>ur c;iuty to represent ~'le people of t.'l.is Prov.inc:e and. net to try to impress one another with 199

.:'-ll'j 17, 1979 Tape t~o. ~5 SD - 2 ~IR. n. 3ARRE'l"r: glib tongues an.i to entertain the media to get passing reference in their reporting. cont=ary to tlle ba.s:'..s of debate as presented by scme of the ilon. members sitting across, I i1ave net reviewed. the past nine years 1 Speac:hes from the 'I'h:rone ncr nave I revieweci. the past sevl!ll years 1 Budget Speeches.

I am sure, .1r. ::ipeake:r, that nad I done SQ 1 I could. just as readily have come ;op with as lllany or liiCre speci£ic cases wnere the policy and actio.ns of tile government of the day was 1 in fact~good policy ilnQ was 7 in fact, employment producing and was, in fact, socially beneficial and did. indeed. d.o everything that was intendeci.Or had I gone back similiarly to review the Speeches from the Tlu:one or Budget Speeches , I will say fifteen years aqo or twenty years ago, I "o~Cu.lci just as readily have come up with as lllany or !IIOre specific cases wne:ra the policy and actions of the government of that day was,in fact,bad ?Olicy and. was, in, fact,unemplayment producing and was.L~ fact,socia11y unbeneficial and ciiQ illd.eed do ncthing t.'1at was intended. aut for ..,hat purpose, . what would have been prcveni I guess it is a :nat~ of wiJ.o is cioing tile researca and what specific time frame is being researcil.eu. centered on what ilappe.ns new - SOME :dati • :1E:!>WE.a5 : dR.

H. BARRE'l"r: My concern, ·~· Speaker, is mainly Hear, i1ea:r - today, tomcr:row and over the next few years. Surely now is when we lay out this blueprint for the future, my future, your future and tile future of our children of our Province. The Throne Speecn of July 1979 is wnat I am concerned wit.~ rignt now.

That is the ciocument that is under ciebate. ·,;J.thout reiterating the enure content of ~'lis Throne ::il:'eech allow me to c0111111ent on a number of, wnic:h in my view are_.t.~e most signi£icant points. .-Ia are on c..'l.e brink of ';;le greatest ~erioci of progress and prosperity ~at ~e nave ever seen. The 2~0

Jdy li' .!. 979 :;i; - 3 g-overnment • s s ta~eci apprcac:h tcwatcis ::ile r&Source sectcr is. most credita.ble. without do~t that th.e requl.a.tiQns that were fc:z:mulated and. are new !)einq enfcrc:eci ou it rela,t .es tc the oil and. gu explantiQD

---------- July 17, 1979 Tape tlo. 96 OW - l MR. H. SARRE'l"!': proqra111111e were t~Cst beneficial towards providing substantial employment to ;{ewfoundlanders and towards providing substantial business to Newfoundland companies .I am most happy to acknowledge t.'l.at quite a number of resident:: of ~lY own district of St. John's West a.e among the 700 ~ewfoundlanders.presentlY employed in this year's offshore proqrilllllle. Similiarly, a number of businesses in my own district of St.

John's West are also benefitinq by supplyinq some of ~"'.e goods and services making up the S250 million being spent on this year's programme. The city and port of St. John's could become one of the t~Cst prosperous areas for its size in Canada with Newfoundland's new role as a supply and service centre for offshore exploration and develcp.ant. This is just the first year of concentrated exploration under these new regulations and I feel confident that as a result of the experience gained this drilling season,even mere employment and mere business will develop next year and in t.'l.e years thereafter.

It is easy to lose track of the l:lenefits oc:c:uri.nq from this proqramme, M:r. Speaker. Not only is employment created and business increased but each of these persons employed are now in the upper income brackets of our community and the increase in business places these companies in a sounder financial po:~i tion, the result of which is obviously increased benefits in income to the economy of t.'l.is Province.

Not only have the oil exploration ccmpanies contributed to capital and supply expenditures estimated at some S250 ~tllion thi& year al.one but ~lewfoundland companies have also made significant expansions of their own facilities to respond to this demand. I feel confident as well ~~at this qovern­ men~ will continue ~o improve and refine these regulations so ~hat oeher areas of opportunity for empl9yment, for supply and services '"ill be' identified.

This,hopefully,will not be limited to just the offshore resource -sector but • ..,ill also be pursued as it relates to companies doing business in the other resource sectors as well~ and alonq the same lines that have now been established. 202

, ­_,' 1979 Tape :-:o. 86 DN - 2 ~'!'!. . :! • !l A!'Ut...'"'I"!.' : TO quate f~m the Throne Speech, "C.Qvernment intends to enter into all suc:h arrangements in a careful and businesslike ~nner.It is therefcre essential ~~at our gcvernPent has the right policy to bring such economic activity to its full potential.~ Again of particular interest to me ~d to my distric:t of St.

John 1 s West, I am =st pleased with the government 1 s intention to deve.!.op a strong, marine research and develo!?ment capability. ~lewfoundland is unique in that geoqraphlc:all? it occupies a position unlike any other country in the world. ~e are located, as if being scientific ;:?latfo=, right in the lli.ddle of the Atlantic: where the warn gulf stream meets the cold Labrador cun:ent . The significaDCe of this merging of these two natural forces provides us nth the opportunity of being of major strategic: importance to the !!Iarine scientific community.

Projects now underway and planned for ~~e future,~es our present marine laboratory, the uniVersity science faculty, the yet to be completed Arctic 1ressel and Marine Research Institute together with the newly formed ~aval Architectural ProqrZilllllle at the university, of significant importance not onlv to •.:s here in Newfoundland but to the entire world wh.ere already our-- facilities and research staff have acquired international recognition. The city of St.

John's and its harbour facility has the cacac:ity for much more additional development to that which has already been alluded to as it relates to offshore exploration. This port now provides many hundreds of permanent jobs to longshore- ~n. to truckers, to w3rehousemen, to customs officials, equipment operators and the jots in the many c:'i•tersified spin-off service -relatec businesses . One of the principal employers is the ~ rail and marine facility and the recently announced approval for construction of the syncrolift for St.

John's initiated by continued pressure by this government will surely make a significant contribution of increased revenues to this Province and increased jobs and job security to many of aur people.

: uly 7. !.'?7° SOME eON. MEMBERS: ~- H • !3AR!lET'l': Tape ~o. 86 ow - 3 Clear, hear! The movement of c;oods by the marine mode is without question the most equitable, least costly and beneficiu to most Newfoundlanders today. ThLs is be inc; ~qnized by more and more Shippers the result of which is much increased ac+-..i.vi ty alonq our waterf=ont. To cope with ~~s increased activity, ~r.

Speaker, the need has been already determined to pursue further extensive development to our harbour faCil.i ties • This developtnent 'AICUJ.d, no doubt) make provision to establish an adequate container port facilities to respond to the g:owinq activity in this area , to service the direct sail.inqs between St. John 1 s and ·swfax and st. John 1 s and ;-tontreu. Another area of siqn.ificant importance is the qrowinq demand for a rail.%oad facility to properly handle the increa54! de~t~and for: this service that has developed between St. John 1 s and Halifax. It is my hope, Mr.

Speaker, that over the next few l!'Cltlths this govermrent

July 17, 1979 Tape :-lo. 37 GH-1 ~- H. SARRETT: will pursue the further development of the port facility for the City of St. John's aggressively and vigorously with the city, with the National Harbours Board and tile federal government. The stated intent, Mr. Speaker, of government's policy to emphasize the development of small and medium sized business is a major step towards the goal of less dependency on outside assistance. This philosophy ·~11 solidify the economy and improve year-round employment, probably more than any other single program that has been announced.

My own experience would suggest that the ~oader the base, the sounder the project. This concept would also seem to apply in this respect as well. If we can encourage the establishment of a large number of diversified businesses throughout our Province, then obviously we can avoid the shock impact of a failure of a major industry or plant much more easily.

This concept of development can also ensure improvement. to the economic prospects for our rural areas as well, with the end result being the establishment of diversified and year-round employment and business success and the ability to improve sUbstantially the social and community services. Mr. speaker, the programs outlined in the Speech from the Throne of 1979 and some of which I have mentioned this afternoon are the things which I look forward to helping implement during the next few years and will, I sincerely trust, be the beginning of the creation of a permanent base for our economy.

For the first time in our history we have the chance to be a 'have' province and to break the stranglehold of fiscal handouts. This administration is committed to a new direction for Newfoundland and ! am proud to be a part of it. SOME HON. lreMBERS : Hear, hear~

.Jul y 17. 1979 Tape No. 87 Gli-2 :·IR. !i. SARRETT: Government must always be there to help, to serve, to assist and to be answerable to the people of this Province, bu~ private initiative is the keystone. Thank you. SOME !iON. MEMBERS : !411.. SPEAKER: (Mr. Simms ) !411.. L. STI:RLING: Hear, hear! The hon. member for Bonavista North. Mr. Speaker, like my colleagues from the other side who just spoke, I too am a new member in this House of Assembly and I too would like to congratulate you on your election and the Deputy Speaker. I would like to congratulate the Premier on his election.

I think that he carries with it a tremendous responsibility. All of us, and I think I speak for all of Newfoundland, are looking forward as he encouraged us to do during the election. I am not saying this tongue-in­ cheek. I am saying with the greatest of disappointment that I think that the last Premier held out the same kind of promise , the same kind of promise for a new Newfoundland and a great future and an oppor~unity to control our own destiny. I was not actively involved at the time, Mr.

Speaker, but I think that the current Premier in his election campaign. and as we have seen here by the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. L. Barry), an attempt to say, "Forget all that is past". The great disappointment that this Province has already suffered is the failure of the_previous Premier to live up to ~~ great expectation and now we are asked by a new, energetic, aqgressive,young Premier,who says he has brought new people, new faces 206

__ .:.. ~· - - .;uJ.y 17, 1979 Tape 88 !B-l ~...R. ST!:U.ING: and like every other Newfoundlander I have e.':lat same itind of hope, everything that he referred to in the Speecn From ·!'he Throne, ! have that same hope that he is going to be able to live up to those promises. !tt. Speaker, for a long time I have l:leen in vel ved with the munic:ipal level of government and I have been involved at the parey level and I woW.d say to !llelllbers on both sides of th.is House that I have tbe greatest of respect for the people who offer themselves for public office in th.is Province.

I have seen nothing yet in th.is House to indicate otherwise. I have the greatest of respect and intend to defend :uembers wilo are in th.is House on either side because I th.ink '"e can do a. lot, not only the new members of this House but some of the veteran members of th.is House by being just a little bit more careful about some of the responses, some of the colllllleilts.

Because people real.ly want to look up to the people who are elected in this House • ~ first conce:r::n, when we go throug'h the whole ritual. that t.':le new ·members were going through and we see why t.'linqs are done in the House of Assembly~ it IIIUSt be very confusing. And I have ~ children here in the House of .\ssembly today and I hope that: rrry conduCt; can a.lways be such that they will be pleased to sit in the House of Assembly. I hope every other member will feel the same '"ay. SOME HON. ~ERS: Hear, hear! :-IR. STIRLING: This whole ritual of the House of Asselllbly, !U'.

Speaker, is that we are electing fifty-two individual. members. We happen to get together because we happen to agree on different things with ~o less respect for the members of the opposite side.

But it is just e.'lat, as the last speaker had mentioned, he was attracted because of the leadership qualities of his leader. aut when we qo back ~o the days t.hat tile l?:remier mentioned, tile days when this House collapsed, · t.~e days in 1934 when they came in from outside this Province and said, ·~ewfoundlanders you are not fit to govern yourselves because you are so full of corruption, you cannot elect an honourable House.' Ladies and gentlemen let us never go bac.~ to c.'"l.ae. aut in those days ·•hen there 207

July 17 1 1:379 Tape as lB-2 ~. STIRLI NG: were :nany changes in the House there was not always one parcy or two parties, there -re many parties. And the essence of this How;e is that we have eo be able as members, wit.'l dignity I would suggest, ca select that there are h.onourable differences of approach, differences of approach by a group of people collected together who call t:h.eii!Selves the P . c.

Party and versus a group collected together who call theii!Selves ~'le J:.i.beral ?~y. 3ut essentially we are joined together because we want eo do ~o~hat we think is in the best interest of this .,rovince from our point of view. And hen. 1118111bers on tha other side. in this particular case, went to the people of N'ewfoundlar.d ana t.'le people of Newfoundlanc1 said, ay and larqe we believe that you people under your leader will deliver what you promised. And what did you promise ?

You promised to step forward, to provide a qreat new future for ,~ewfoundland and the key point is that you could get a..long better rith your colleagues in Ottawa. Mr. Speaker, the people of Newfoundland believe that you are going to do that. You did not win !:ly any trickery. You won t.'l.is election, you nave this responsibility because the people in ~foundland believed you just the same ·o~ay as the people of Newfoundland believed Frank 1·1oores and you saw what happened ·o~nen t.'lat trust was given and tllrown into the mud. i>u.'l i:iON . !'""'!BE.R: (Inaudible) election poison. :m.

SPEAKER: Order, please! 208

July ·~ -'-'• 1979 ~- L. STIRLING: Tape No. 89 GH-1 I do not intend, Mr. Speaker, to get involved at this stage in any pettiness in this !fouse because I believe when we make speeches - because we al~ tried to get here - there is somewhere,everywhere else in this Province where other people wanted to get this job and ! believe that we really do as individuals have a responsibility to live up to the promises that we made to our people and I do believe as individuals we can do something about the conduct of this House, because I for one am not going to participate in it unless I am provoked by the other side.

If somebody will make a promise to me from the other side, then we should get along fine. Mr. Speaker, I want to go back to the Premier's comments and I look forward to them and I intend to conduct myself in this !fouse of Assembly based on these two points that he made, and you can sum up the whole Speech from the Throne and all the coliDI!ents made from the other side when he said, "There are two key areas;•, and I have a habit of making notes and I may remind the Premier from time to time of this, "There are two key areas".

One, ~~t he believes that the programs that this government will bring forward will make government accountable. AN HON. ~ER: (Inaudible) MR. L. STI:RLING: I am quoting the Premier. Mr. Speaker, I believe that government should be accountable. I think that over the next little while - we have talked about, "Let us forget the past". Well, okay, but one of tile things that did not happen in this last election and I agree that it is up to ~~e other side to decide it, they did not agree to be accountable for their past seven years. I agree if you are not proud of the past seven years, let us not discuss it.

Let us talk about ' this poin~ forward. one point I would expect the Premier '~ill be held t:o and that is t.~t he wants to make this government accountable; and two something •rery dear to my heart, he wants to identify us as N~afound- landers. What are we? What are Newfoun~anders? What does it mean to be a ~~ewfoundlander? Mr. Speaker, one thing that the hon. members 209

July 17, 1979 Tape No. 89 GH-2 MR. L. STIRLING: opposite and my colleagues from this side all have in common is that we are living in Newfoundland by choice. We love NewfoUlldland. We want to live in Newfoundland. we want our children to grow up in Newfoundland. Take all the places in the world with all the benefits that they can provide and all of us fighting to get into this House of Assembly are living in NewfoUlldland because we want to live in Newfoundland.

I happen to represent the great and historic district of Bonavista North and I would like to publicly now, although protocol may say that I cannot name him, name the former member for Bonavista North who was the Deputy Speaker of this House, Mr. George Cross, as a man who did a good job. He did a good job and with respect, Mr. Speaker, George Cross did a good job and he ran a clean campaign. Many of the things that he did in that district and the promises that he wrangled in that district I will see over the next four years get done, and it may very well be as the hen. Minister of Lands and Forests (Mr • . J.

Morgan) said that he will be back. That is up to the people of Bonavista North. I do not presume on the voters of a district. I can tell you t:ho11gh about some of the things t.tJat ~ybe the hon. minister can answer directly to these voters in Bonavista North about. I asked some of them, "What do you want me to say in the House of Assembly?", because as far as I am concerned I am going to bring up the concerns and express the wishes and the views of the people of Bonavista North. They asked me to remind you and some of ~~e people who may not physically be aware of the district, it runs from Gambo to Cape Freels.

It is a district that in 1961 was practically wiped out by a forest fire, the district that this year has had another series of forest fires. aut out of every bad thing, Mr. Speaker, some good can come and I would welcome the intervention of the Minister of Lands and Forests 2i0

July ,., ..l..l, 1979 Z.!r. Stirlina: Tape 90 PK - l because I ~as pleased to receive the good news during ~e election campaign that an agreement had been signed between Ottawa and the Province. People L~ ~e Gamba area, Hare Bay, ~e Dover area, Trinity, Centreville, Indian Bay have a long history as professional loggers and woodsmen , and they had a good future, and ~ey were hard workers, and they never asked for handouts, but ~~at forest fire wiped them out.

And if we have 400 jobs,and I give ~e !!l.inister full credit for looking for another SSS million worth of money from the federal government, thac surely the people who should have the first priority, Mr. Speaker, ~e first priority are the people who have had their livelihood wiped out. In 1961 it was wiped out, and again now forest fires all over the same area. The first priority should be to those professional loggers and woodsmen.

I would recommend that immediately the minister consider setting up a committee, a task force, to look from ~e point of view of what good can be salvagec out of this current forest fire in Gamba • P'or example J I have bee~ told by the loggers and the people in the area, the sawmill operators, some of whom have had their operations burnt;that if we move quickly in the next two years we can salvage a lot of that timber, that timber which was held by Price or ao~ters, that they could not get their hands on,that has now been burnt, the limbs have been burnt off, ~e wood is salvageable if we do something with it in the next two years.

And I accept the fact that the minister wants to do something in that area. And I would ask him to consider the professional ·~rker in that area, because they are professionals. They are professional loggers and lumbermen. That these people be given the first priority to be given an opportunity to work in this area of cleaning out and salvaging that area. The minister may have ~isunderstood a question I was asking him yesterday, and I would like to clarify it today.

I have no doubt that the people who are working in that area are working as hard as they possibly can, but the Premier mentioned that we need to bring 211.

July 17 , 1979 Tape 90 PK - 2 Mr. Stirling: in consultants on railways, to understand railway type operations. And a concern that I have that I would like to discuss at sometime with the minister is that maybe somewhere where i:h~ Weather is better than in Newfoundland. It seems every time we get some good weather our forests burn down, but there are places surely somewhere in the world •mere they have a very effective control before a forest fire gets out of control.

And that maybe somewhere, when the Premier is locking fer experts elsewhere - if we had a blowout on the offshore oil there is no question that we would bring in ~perts to try to control and maintain and get it while it is still in a state where it can be controlled - and I think we should take a. look: at the same sort of thing. I am sure that t.'le minister is net satisfied that everything that could be done is being done.

Tha~ we should spend money - we are talking about offshore development, offshore controls, well, our forestry in this Province and in my distr~ct.what there is left of it . around the districtJneeds to be protected. Mr. Speaker, I mentioned this question of accountability. The Election Expenses Act could have been brought in before this last election. March 16 I think: it was or March 17, S!;._- Patrick's DaY: we get the new Premier and the new government. The Election Expenses Act could have been brought in before that election.

There was nothing that required us to have an election. debating The estimates that we are now 212

July 17 , 1979 Tape No. 91 "" - 1 .·IR. L.. STIRLING: could ~ave been brought in earlier :oo just temper this newness with the fact tha.t some of these things could have been done. I would !.ike tQ 1110ve on 1:Q a. question - I am glae the Premier lla.s returnad 1:Q his seat because I think it: is essential - the tlling he aas wentioned in his Throne Speech - I tnink it is essential tha.t we clearly b\Ulci our whole programme around this question of identification.

I a.ttenclad one of my first functions, I attended the •·lemcr.i.al Day paralie in Ga.mbo .lZid saw the people from world War I ancl worlg. war II on paraee a.ncl we reminisced a.ncl talMci a. little bit. wnci I wondered what solll& of those people who died would have thought if the~ would CCIIIB back to Newfoundlancl today as fishe.:men and say, "•lie can not even ca. tch a. fish." I am so pleased, :ir. Speaker, that t..'le Premier represents a rural d.i.su.i.ct. It is nc se=et that 1110st of ti'le meml:lers on the other side ar11 from url:lan seats.

I am- so pleased that the P~eR.i.er represents a. raral district because this whole question, until you get dcwn and talk to a. fisherman , as many of us did during the election c.lmpa.i.gn anci 11e said, "I got a. son a.ere. r fished with m.y father. "li!la.t guarantee am I going to have t."lat my sen is going to be a.ble to fish. lie does not want to go away. de d.oes not want tQ go to un.i.versi ty.

He want:> tQ be a. fishe=an." :aut t..'l.is is important and.,.·Jr • .>peaker, that is ·.,;ny I a.m expectinq the Premier to spenci a. lot of time concerned a.Dout tne identification o.C t.."le Newfoumllancler a.nci '"here ''"e are a.r.d ~o~here we are going. You know, young people want to live in Newfounula,ld. de have got to t..o.ke - I ,;roJ,.Ose, .•Jr. :O!?ea&er, ::.nat one of the first conferences t.'la.t ~o~e call, we call a. conference of fishermen.;>le c'l.n n.ave a. lo1; of S'WlJects tha.c r.eed ;:o :>e discussed and I am sure that ;:ne .·1inister of Fisneries (•'lr. W. Ca.rter) has many of them.

Well, onenof tile things t.'lat .,.,.e need ~o discuss and 213

•.. Tape <io. 91 . ~. :.. STI<U.ING: rationalize \ofil:il OteQwa. is t:nis ·.rnole 'i~stion of liceruoing because it affects the :Ca.aic .Eamily Wli~; as t.le Premier ~nows. In many pan:i of .rural NewfgWlC!la.na, :·tr. Sl:)eaker, it is i.mpgrtanl: tna1: the family can say together, t.'le sons "'an1; to work with tD.e fawer. An<.i t.'len .,hen somebcxiy gets re.Wy for eventUd.l reti.rellldm:; it is very late. In aonavista. t,jort.'l I have ruet !:lany i?eople eignt:y-f.ive or ninety years ola still looking after tileir v·.,.n aomes.

Well one of the saddest cases I saw .,as someboay ·.rhg want= to keep thair family, k.ee~ thair mgtner ana father near tilem ana. t.1e nome was filled. up. I nope we will l:la.ve active discussions, that a. new acme will be b~lt in the Nesleyville area to a.cc~odate more pegple \ofilO want to be near tileir families. I ta.llc.ed. to some.bod.y who said, "Look the nearest I can get my family is in ::it. John's and. they tic not want eo i:le in .Ot. John's, tuey do ilOt ·.;ant 1:Q i1a.ve T:lle senior citizens in St:.

Joim's.'' eo be l•e.re eitne.r. .·IR. ~. ::iTIRI..ING; And. it: is more important to ~embers all across tnis Province tl:lat we snould insist t:nat as a. !;.usic - and. tuis is wily I am SQ pleased tna1: tl:le Premier 11as in tl:le Throne Speecn referred to the identification of the Newfouncllallder because it is t:.he identificatign of the N'ewfoulldla.nd.er and tile :{ewfoWlC!la.na family. ·,;e have to nave tile right for the Newfoun<.ilander' s SQ n to get a fishing license to follow i1is father into tne fishing business, not tilat: t:b.e father has to give up and t.'len give it over. de nas got to i.le .U.le to <..tevelop the business, a business of fishing. :·!any peep .i.e here have bus~nesses or i?rofessions ana they build up a value into it and people can i.luy tna.t value or they can i?ass it:. on to tne~r familJ.es, to CileJ.r sons. 3asic and essential t:o c.'ie Tl1rone ;i;;?eecn, ,·!r. ~~t!cLker, J.S ;;lle­ fac: chat ~~e yo~~g ?erson ~ust ge~ a JOL ~n tne iish~~ ~naustry. :>a.sic to c.'lis '"'ngle concept of .i.uendf.ication ·.ri:;h the fami.i.y ;.s that t.1e family s.1ould be allowea co stay :;oget.1.er.

Crown la.nus ena.:. ...re <>ll t.'lrough cne rural part:. oi :lew:founul.J.na antl have not i.lo:en "'"''-'e a.va.lla.i:Jle. 214

-"N dON. .·!E;·LBER: .-ia. J:.. STIBLING: 1'ape No. ~l ::i.J - ) ( Inai.Ui.ible) Thank you very r.wcn. lily t.>e way, as an asicie I meant to mention in tile opening comments, let :ne say tl~a.t I ,J.a.Ve i!Mci nothing 215

JW.y 17. l9i9 Tape 92 !.8-l MR. STIRLING: but the greatest of co-operation in the last four or five days from the :nini.stars and f= the senior civil servants. I have had absolutely first class co-operation in collectinq this information. I am pleased that -:he :ninister interjected because I intend to get some Crown land approved for some of the constituents in Bonavista Nor...h and I am so glad to see that he col.l.ld not hold himself back and had to tell me right now, yes olca.y you can get Crown land. And the fellow who was waiting for three '"'ee.~s - MR. MORG:.N: (Inaudible) a.l.l over the Province. MR.

STrRLmG: Yes but I just want to gat it through in Bonavista North. AN HON. MEMBER: In Labrador? MR. STIRLING: Mr. SpeaJter, with the greatest respect, I do not wish to ~ve up but I mean if they will let me start again totrorrow I would gladly sit down and let a.l.l rit'f colleagues now get the commitments for land in Crown lands if the minister is in such a great frame of mind. But little things , Mr. Spealter, things that: for example , a third of the members opposite who represent St.. John's take for granted, as the RRAD programme. The Residential Rehabilitation Programme which you take for granted in St.

John's ,is net available in Sonavista North. I do not know why Mr. Cross was unable to persuade the other people to malte that an approved area, a designated ana. I am sure he worked hard but for some reason it was not done. You know there is not one unit of public housing in Bonavista North. Not one ~.~nit of public housing and yet a forest fire wiped out their opportunity to get fl.l.ll-time employment to do some of their own financing. A lot of th.e people are seasonal workers and they are t.'le most industrious people in the world. They go all over the world to get a job and tilen co- back home.

Some of t.'lese people . .,.he do not have a regular income col.l.ld benefit illOSt from public housing and I hope chat we ~o~ill be able to do sometl'ling. But t:.l'lere is not one unit of public housing in Bonavista ~orth. 216

July li, l9i9 Tape 92 IB-2 MR. STIRLING: I asked another person, "What do you want me to bring up in t.'l.e House of Assembly for Bona vista North? •. They said, "Just tell t.'l.em that we want our share. We have been neglected for too long. We want to have our share of the qood thinqs in Newfounal.and. •• And adequate housing is a basic, fundamental right. Mr. Speaker, dealing with some of the matters related to inciustry; we had a promise in writing in Bonavista Nort.'l. .Wout a blueberry plant. It was an all inclusive type of thing.

Now in that area there are very indust=ious people working in the blueberry industry that have a lot of ideas .Wout how to improve that industry. I would hope that we can do further development as this House moves along. In the fisheries, Mr. Speaker, there has been a very disturbing thing going on in the laat few crays and I am sure the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. W. Carter) is concerned and I am surt;! that the Minister of Lands and Forests {Mr.

Morgan) will be concerned when h.e nears about it~ Illaybe he already has,. apd that is there is some concern about the Hami.lton Banks and a trade off betwen the discussions on the !iamilton Bank. and the discussions on the Grand Bank. and that the qucta over t.'le next four or five years may be greatly increased. I did a little bit of research and ! found t.'lat it was none other t.'lan the Minister of Lands and Forests new who brought in a resolution to this House which I understand received unani~~Cus support to ban fishing off the liamilton Banks.

And I am sure thac the Minister of Fisheries and the :tin.ister of Lands and Forests will not let that slip by in any negotiations between Ottawa and this Province. I have a real concern, :1r. Speaker, that we may be into almost a conflict of interest situation in this cozy, palsy-walsy a=angement between a government in uttawa who happens ~o b& P.C. and a government in Newfoundland who :'1-appens to be P.C., just a bit of a concern thac tb.ey will :1.ot have tile same kind of an aggressive approach that they would. :"l.ave if there ,,.,.as a government of another stripe 21.'7

July 17. 1979 Tape No. 93 ow- 1 ~. L. S'I'IRI.ING: political stripe, just a little bit. I want to mention another development that is taking place in the Bonavista North area which is also taking place throughout other parts of the Province and that is in the Develop­ ment Association. This development association, ~~e Gambo/Indian Bay Development Association, that group of volunteers have actually built a fish plant with great help from various departments on both the Provincial and Federal level. They should be encouraged. Right now they will be writing the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. w.

Carter) looking for some support and for a. water supply hookup .,ith the main location. They will be looking to rural development and the Minister of Fisheries for help in bringing in an ice plant. I am sure that they will receive consideration. I think, Mr. Speaker, most of what I have had to say will be dealt with in greater detail in further discussion as the Rouse proceeds.

I want to ~ up simply by saying again what r said in the beginning, ! am proud to pe a member of this ffouse, I am proud to be associated with the colleagues on this side and I am looking forward to a very progressive and aggressive approach by this whole aouse of Assembly a.s we deal with ~~e problems of Newfoundland. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hen. member for Stephenville. SOME RON. ~~ERS: Rear, hear! MR. E'. STAGG: Mr. Speaker, it is really delightful to pause for all of that heartfelt applause from my side and I think we ~ay eVPn have had a. few thumps from the other side.

So it is in the spirit of llllanimity that r begin this speech and I am sure as it continues the unanimity will remain the same. Mr. Deputy Speaker, occupying the Speaker's Chair, from my seat right here I compliment you on your election to the office of Deputy Speaker. It was an office that I held myself for some ~~ee or four years and it is a very interesting office. You have to be impartial 218

July 17, 1979 Tape No. 93 OW - 2 ~~- ?. STAGG: throughout. I achieved great notoriety fo_r my impartiality as I was Deputy Speaker and I am sure that you may not emulate me in that regard. In any event it is a very interesting position. My predecessor in the position was the man who is presently t.'le Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry). ae was noted for his impartiality as well. So I compliment you on your election to the position, a most interesting position. And, Mr. Speaker, if you are within earshot I compliment you on your election to the office of Speaker.

It is a most interesting and thought provoking and sometimes mind provoking office. The present Speaker, it may not be known to too many people, is the National President of the Kinsmen Clubs of Canada, an office which is very prestigious within that service organization. And as I address him if I say, "Mr. Speaker, and fellow Kin"occasionally, then it is just lapsing into my previous association with the Kinsmen Clubs as well.

And on the other side of the !iouse we have - I know the member for Port au Port (Mr. !iodder) sponsored me into the Stephenville Kinsmen Club initially, so we at one stage had an harmonious relationship And my colleague down here to the left, the member for Humber west (Mr. aai.rd) is also a Kinsmen. So the Kinsmen Clubs are well represented. The fellow over there from Baie Verte - White Bay (Mr. Rideout) he also is a Kinsman. He is a better Kinsmen that a softball player I must say. He came to Stephenville and we whomped them there several years ago. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) teacher. MR. F.

STAGG: Yes, well they were that too, Mr. Speaker. Now, Mr. Speaker, I have the death watch here the same as the member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) had yesterday. The press does not cover anything said after 4:30 but I may have to circulate copies of my speech to them. And I •.o~ant to set the record straight, especially with the CBC and wi~~ the ~vening Telegram or whoever had the audacity on election night to indicate that I had been defeated in 1975. I was not defeated 21.9

J uly 17 , 1979 ~IR . :. STAGG: llc;hl:? .SO~ !iON. <o!EMBE'RS : .\N :!ON. :-!EMBER: MR. F. STAGG: Tape No . 93 DW - 3 in 1975. I was not defeated in 1975. e:e.ar, hear: ¥ou gave up • I chose not to .run in 1975 and because I chose not to run we have the present member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder) . Sut had I chosen to run 220

Jul y 17, 1979 Tape No. 94 GH-1 MR. :'. STAGG: I suggest he would be still at his job in Stephenville. So the record is straight; I did not run in 1975. I retired undefeated and as I said in one of my election campaigns, not unlike Mohall!med Ali, retired undefeated and came back some four years later when the draft DlOVement was over and got back into politics on a successful note. And I am delighted to be here, and I am sure that ever<Jbody on this side is delighted to have me. Now, I loJOuld also like to compliment tl'l.e member for aonavista North (Mr. L.

Stirling) on his interesting speech, It was provocative in part and as soon as he started to evoke some response from this side of the House. because he was making provocative remazXs, he immediately fell back and said well he is not going to participate in petty debates. Well, I suggest to hon. members that if you are not going to participate in it, you should not start it. You should not start something you cannot finish, but other than that his speech was excellent.

I would also like to compliment him for doing yeoman service to this Province in the dark days of late May when the hen. the Premier called the election and pulled the rug out from under the Liberal caucus and the Liberal party. The hen. member did yeoman service because what was shaping up in Newfoundland at the t.i.me was a rout. It was a rout shaping up. I suspect that there were four or five seats in the Province safe at that time and the call went out from St. John's and the man stayed home all weekend receiving telephone calls and so on, and the draft was successful. Back came the gentleman.

So I want l:o compliment the member for aonavista North. Obviously, he is indigenous to aonavista North. He is indigenous to the area. He is not a person who was parachuted in. I know he was probably born there and has lived there quite some time during his lifetime, so I compliment him on his draft movement in getting the Leader of the Opposition,as he now is,back to Newfoundland. As I 221

July 17, 1979 ~!R. E'. STAGG: AN SON. ~23: MR. F. STAGG: Tape No. 94 recall, that was one of the - !lome to stay. GH-2 - home to stay and all of the things that went with it. Well, I am delighted that he was successful because I believe that had the present Leader of the Opposition, and there had been several, had he not come back to Newfoundl.and t!tat we would not have room on this side of the House for the members. Right? I suspe