Volume 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SEVENTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st. Session VERBATIM REPORT WEDNESDAY, MARCH 31, 1976 SPEAKER; THE HONOURABLE GERALD RYAN OTTENHEIMER Number 41

March 31, 1976 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape no. 1591 Page 1 - mw MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Young ·1: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to rise on a point of privlege of the House.

My point of privilege, Sir, is that I would like to draw members' attention to the fact that at one minute to midnight tonight Newfoundland will have been a Province of Canada for twenty-seven years, and I want to extend my sincere congratulations to the only living Father of Confederation, who is sitting in 'the Chamber with us here today on this very fine accomplishment of bringing Newfoundland into Confederation with Canada. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS: HON. B. PECKFORD (Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing): Mr.

Speaker, I wish to make a statement on the government's policy with respect to the provision of subsidized housing in larger communities in the fiscal year 1976-1977. The objective of the subsidized housing programme, as you are no doubt aware, is to provide rental housing for low income families who do not have the financial resources to obtain home ownership. It is an on-going programme operated under a federal-provincial cost-sharing agreement. Units are allocated on the basis of need and rents are geared to the family income.

At the present time 2,007 subsidized housing units are under management by Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation. An additional 500 units are under construction and tenders have been called for a further 141 units for Labrador City. It has been the policy of government to provide subsidized housing in the larger communities in the Province, principally those with a population of 2,500 and over. There are approximately thirty communities in the Province of this size and subsidized housing is in place or under construction in seventeen of them. 4275

March 31, 1976 Tape no. 1591 1'age 2 - Illlo1 Mr. Peckford. The government intends during the coming year to exp;md its subsidized housing programme, both in terlllS of the number of units to be constr;cted and the numbet of new communLties where units will be placed. In this regard I am pleased to announce· that Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation are now calling proposals for the construction of subsidized housing units in the following c0111111unities: Dell!t Lake,ten units; Lewispqrte~fifteen~ Stephenvllle.up to fifty unit& -) and Corner Brook, up to fifty units.

It is also planned to call tenders in the near future for an additional fifty units in Corner Brook and up t .o 150 units in St. John's. SOME HON. ME}~ERS: Hear, hear~ 4276

Yarch 31, 1976 Tape 1592 ~KR. PECKF'ORn: Investigations are presently being carrie~ out by Newfoundland and Labrador Hous:l.ng Corporation into the need for subsidized housing in other communities of over 2,500 population. I am hopeful that tenders will be called for subsidized units in St. Anthony, Port IB-1 aux Basques,and additional units in Windsor as well as other communities during the current year. It :l.s ant:l.cipatec1 that contracts for the construction of over 400 subsidized units will be ~de in 1976.

The Province has received a commitment from the federal government of $14.5 million for the construction specifically of subsidized housing in the calender yP.ar 1976. Th:ls commitment is subject to detail agreement on individual projects. The provincial share of capital costs ~dll equal $2.56 million. I do not regard the provision of standard subsidized rental housing in communities of less than 2,500 people as a viable housing option at th:ls time. I am hoping therefore to be able to announce a new housinr, programme for these communities in the very near future. SOME RON. l'IEMIEVS: Rear, hear! MR.

SPEAKER O•r. Young) : The han. Leader of the Opposition. }m. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, we on this side welcome,of course, the minister's announcement of some of the details of the housing programme which the government hope to put in hand this year. I would just like to make one or two comments on it at this stage according to the rules. First of all, Yr. Speaker, I am glad that the minister made mention of the fact that the Government of Canada are providing almost all of the money, $14.5 million out of a total expenditure of just about $17 million for this programme.

I do not know what the percentage :l.s, but that is about six-sevenths - what is that? About 80 or 85 per cent of the money in it. I do not say that because I am particularly happy with what the government of Canada have done. ~'Y feeling there is the same as ~vith the government of this Province, 4277

~·arch 31, 1'176 Tape 1592 U-2 YT'. ~OBERTS: they have done much but have not done enough 1 because hous:lne is one of the great unmet nee~s in this Province. I think it aJso worthy of note, Sir, that in the snbsidized housing fiel~, of course, the government continue to incur onp;oi.ng costs because the cost of hu1l~ing the unit is only the injtial cost and from then on there i.s an annual subsidy by clef in Hi on. The subsidy of course varies ,,jth the income of the person or the family living in the House. The government of Canada, I believe, share three parts to one in that - MP.

PECKFORD: Seventy-five, t'~enty-five. ''1'. NlllE'RTS: Seventy-five, twenty-five, three parts to one - I thank the minister. - in the su':>sidy port:lon of the subsi~1~etl housinr programme. T. thir.k that sho•'s that the government of Canada, Sir, have a concern for housjnf. ;md I am glad the governl'!ent of this Province have taken up on that concern. I will give c:redit ~•here credit is due. I think the minister has shovm more inHiati.ve than nost of his colle1>gues have. I think that housing is one of the bright spots in an othenrlse dismal rec<>rrl by thi.s government generally. ~•r.

Speaker, I an particularly interested in the plan which the minister l!'entioned for comtnmities of less than 2,500. This :fs the great unmet need now because in many of these communHies, Sir, adequate servicing is not available, adequate mortgage financing is not available, the conventional programmes ~o not apply and there is a great ~ap, and that gap is becoming 111ore evident and !'lore 11pparent. He hope, Sir, there Hill be an early announcement.

I •ronld hope as Hell, Sir, we will have the opportunity to debate the housing progra!l'me, if we ever get to the estimates of Municipal Affairs and Housing hecause I think it is one of the areas, Sir, l.'here )!Overnrnent have made moves. He "rill compliment them for them but we think stHl further moves should be made. '1-!R. SPEAKER (Hr. Youn~) : The hen. ~~ini ster for Industrial and ~>ural Development. "R. LllNnPIC/IN: 1"r. Speaker, first of al] I have to say I ilid not 4278

~·arch 31, 1976 Tape 1592 '-'R. LIJt.."DPICAN: ever expect to see the day when Your Honour, an llpper Island Cover, would be in a position to sit me down When you want to,and you have got ~~ right where you wanted me all your lifetime. I want to say,in an introduction to my own statement,congratulations to Your Honour for, I believe, the first time assuming the Chair in this particular capacity. ~. ROWE: No . MR. LUNDPIC.AN: off the day. In this particular capacity ri~ht now,as leading ~I'J'. ROm~: Oh, scatting off the day. TB-3 ~. Lt~~~~l: Startinr, off the day and also going into the formal aspects of the Rouse . SO}!E HON • ~'F.l-'B'ERS : Hear, hear! 4279

'larch 31, 197G . Tape JSQ3 RH - 1 MR. J. LUNDRIGPN : I would li!ce to announce, Your Honour, the results of the forty-fifth meeting of the Rural Development Authority. T helieve this is thE' first time any reference has been mane :In the House,since I have ;een here at least, to Meetings of the Pural Development Authority. T hope that I can make this a continuation of announcements regardinR the Rural Development Authority durin~ the coming year and the next number of years.

The Rural Development Authority, it is a programme started hy this government, Your Honour, •>~hich enables business - Alii HON. :F.' lliFR : It is a giveaway programme. MR.. LUNDRIGAN: Yes, it is a giveaway progamme of a sort. It is also a loan programme. But our particular aspect of it is a loan programme to small businesses vYhich are interest free loans up to a mA.ximum of a certain amount of money- $15,000 we have been using as the maximum- 1-lhich enables people to get off the ground in small industries, one year forgiveness, five year repa)~ent interest free.

It is a small amount of money and it has had a fair measure of success, certai .nly not to the extent that we are hatting a thousand. ''R. SHALL WOOD : Is it a board of the department? IIR. LUNDRIG/\N: It is a board of the department, Your Honour. Perhaps it is <mrtht-•hile ;ust mentionin~ this in my statement, a small board made \lP of a number of people that are not associated with the ~ overnment at all. They are appointed as members of the board, the Rura.l Development Board.

My colleagues in "Forestry and Agriculture and Fisheries are members of tbe board and I chair the board which speaks every two to three to four weeks. HR. SHALLWOOD: ~~- L11~ffi1UGAN: Are they non-government employees? The people on tlie hoard are my two colleagues, myself and two outside people on the board itself. The applications and so on are assessed by the departr.tental staff. In any event, Your Honour, 1ve 1vould like to annouce the approval of eleven applications for assistance rr.ade yesterday at the forty-fifth meeting of the board. This hrings to 4280

March 31, 1976. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Tape 1593 RH- 2 an amount of over $5 million that has been made in the last three years by that Authority to approximately - I would guess,but I will announce it when the estimates are here- approximately 1,000 small businesses that have been assisted with the creation of over 3,000 jobs. There were eleven applications yesterday assisted at the meeti{:g. Now this involves fifty-two jobs, seasonal and full time that will be created.

I would like to mention some of the businesses: a carpenter shop, for example, a commercial film making operation; a' logging operation; some of these were further loans to industries that are very successful and that have started to repay their monies, very successfully have built up their businesses and we are assisting them further. We are trying to harp on and assist people that have proven since the introduction of the programme their ability to succeed and have grown and developed. A sawmill and lambering manufacturing, a bakery. ~1R. SMALUJ'OOD: Can the minister give them geographically? MR.

LUNDRIGAN: At this stage I could not specify the areas for all of those particular ones. But when the estimates are out we can give each community where the various loans have been made. A motel, a hospitality home, a sawmill and planer mill, pulp harvesting, a furrier operation in Portugal Cove,I believe,and a farm. MR : J. NOLAN: 'Hill the minister permit a question? You mentioned a motel, for example. Is it the policy to encourage or to put money into a motel? I am thinking that it must cost a fair~amount of money,and I am wondering percentage-wise to what extent you might be permitted in that area to help?

MB.. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Speaker, if the hon. gentlemar has a discussion with my colleague from Fortune he will get the full details on that particular application. Now, Your Honour, aside from this particular announcement involving the eleven applications, $103,000 in total, fifty-two jobs, I would like to make reference to another situation where as a result of our overseas trip several weeks ago we found something which was not to my amazement but 4281

\larch 31 , lq76. MJl • Lll!mRIGI\ll : Tape 1503 RH - 3 certainly -if this is in order, Your Honour, ~erhaps somebody ,;ould like to respond to the first s tatement I made. ~'R . SIMMONS: Mr . Speaker, 1 Ujderstand the minister is ahout to make a separate statemer.t quite apart from this subject . The minister is not listening . 'Ill.. LUNDRIGA.N: I am listening, yes . ~. ~IMMONS: I say, that is right . This is a separate statement he is about to make. Okay, I wl'uld like to respon d , Kr.

Speaker, first of all on behalf of my colleagues to what the minis t er has had to say in relation to the R.D.A., the Rural nevelop ment Authority. I think the record will s~ow , ~·r . Speake r, that this has to be the briefest statemen t in terms of time lapse or words ever made by a minister i n the House of Assembly . t would suh1ect - llP. . LUNDRIGAN: 1 will stretch out the next one. .!_!R. SIN!'IONS: ~lo, Hr.

Speaker, t am not complain ing about the lack of length hut the lack of information . t thi nk it is fair to sav that t he statement j ust made t hen is fairly indicative of the amount of information we have been ~e tt ing on the subject of the Rural Development Authority . ! welcome the 4282

March 31, 1976 Tape 1594 PK - 1 Mr. Simmons: information we have, but I just want to use this-that we have received today,! ought to say, I welcome that information. And I would like to use the opportunity to invite the minister once again to consider making available full information,which after all ought to be public information, there is nothing in the legislation which would require it to be private. It is public funding involved.

We are unable on ~his side of the House to properly do our job in terms of adjudicating whether the money is peing well or even properly spent without having access to a description of the kinds of areas in which it is being put, the kinds of areas not only geographically but in terms of job areas and category of occupation, the category of development. And we would like to have that information. We did have it,I must say, the minister's predecessor or one of them, the hon. Jim Reid,as he then was,did make it available to us, and I would hope that the present minister would see reason to follow suit.

It is of tremendous help to us in determining our views on the expenditure of these monies which,as I pointed out,are public. The minister's comment on the make up of the Rural Development Authority, of course, would bear challenging and we will do that at the appropriate time. This is not a time for debate, but his statement that the non government members are not in anyway associated with gove~ent, it is one that I would seriously cha~lenge. I! the minister means governemnt in its strict sense he is probably right. If he means no association with the P.C.

Administration then,of course,he knows full well that he is not telling the full trut\1 when he says tha~ because the gentlemen concerned,while not government employed, have had a very real, and I would hope valuable association with the P.C. Administration over the past few years. It is not the time to give their names, Mr. Speaker, but I shall in Committee, the Committee of Supply probably. I am encouraged particularly by the minister's indication that money is being put into motels, at least one motel. This I believe 4283

March 31, 1976 Tape 1594 PK - 2 Mr. Simmons: is a departure. It is encouraging in that money in a motel is a heck of a lot better than putting money in morgues, and that is waht they were doing first, Mr. Speaker. So they have moved from the dead to the living at least. But also, Mr. Speaker, it raises the question of how often you change the rules in this game without referring to the House.

And now we bear that a category for which a number of people were turned down previously is now okay, and this is another thing that has bothered me about the authority, that the rules seemed to change with the day or is it with the applicant? Mr. Speaker, in concluding MR. LUNDRIGAN: wbat is that on,motels? MR. SUII'IONS: Yes. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Are you objecting to motels being helped? MR. SIMMONS: I am not. No, I am not. That is not the issue, Hr. Speaker.

The issue is that others have applied and were turned down not because they did not qualify in other terms, but they were told it was not within the terms of reference of the authority. I say now I am glad it is within the terms of reference, but some people require an explanation. I hope not. Where they the wrong kind of applicant? Mr. Speaker, almost anybody who checks the advertising

section of the paper, and I do regularly because I am always cognizant that I sho~ld be briefed on what job opportunities are available at any given moment, God ~news when a fellow will need one, but I notice at the same time that there are a lot of ads, I would say an unusually large number of ads for the sale of equipment through the Department of Rural Development. And I have checked out some of these ads, and I am told that some o£ that equipment, a good amount of it~as I am sure the minister will realize is coming - MR. WELLS: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. MR. SPEAKER (MR. YOUNG): The bon. House Leader.

MR. WELLS: I think the bon. member has now launced into a general debate on this subject which is contrary to the rules I am replying · to ministerial statements. 4284

March 31, 1976 Tape 1394 PK - 3 MR. SPEAKER (MR. YOUNG): if he will - I would like to ask the hon. member MR. SIMMONS: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker. I submit that I had not launced in a general debate,! was preambling to ask the minister a question, and I will get very quickly to the question. I knQW the Rouse Leader does not particularly want to hear this stuff, but it is bearing on the point, Mr. Speaker, there are a lot of ads in the paper, dozens of them selling tractors, tree harve•ters, sawmill equipment. And my question, Mr. Speaker, - MR. WELLS: That should be asked in tle Question Period, Mr.

Speaker, that is what the Question Period is for. MR, SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I can frame my comments in the form of questions be they rhetoric or otherwise. I am not going to ask the government House Leader how shall I frame my comments in response to a ministerial statement. And I frame them this way; will the minister indicate to the House some time soon whether the perponderance of ads in the paper ~ relating to the sale of equipment through the Department of Rural Development indicates that there are a large number of failures of businesses that have been funded by the Rural Development Authotity? MR.

LUNDRlGAN: Yes. MR. SIMMONS: The answer is, yes. I thought so. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order~ please! I would like - 4285

~farch 31, 1976 Tape No. 1595 NH - 1 'IR, SPEAKER (r'R. YOUNG): to welcome to the galleries a delegation from Labrador South,and I trust their stay in our Assembly will be enjoyable. The hon. member for Twillingate. }IR.. SMALLWOOD : ¥-r. Speaker, I heard with real happiness the announcement made by the minister and I am sure trat every Newfoundlander will be happy when he hears it. If there is one position across the floor that I would envy it is the position that the hon. minister occupies.

I would tell the Premier that I would rather be in that job than in hie job, Industrial and l'_ural, and mayhe the Premier would too, Industrial and Rural nevelopment.

The minister does not need me to tell him that ~~e have many hundreds of men,or groups of men applying to the government for financial help to start this, that or the other little enterprise, creating one or two or three or four or five or eight jobs, When hundreds do that there are bound to be a good many failures,and he must not be discouraged by that fact,because what we lack in Newfoundland is no so much natural resources, we have a lot of natural resources, perhaps more than most Provinces, more than many provinces anyway, what we do lack is entrepreneurial skill.

T.Je have not been at that long enough to have built up a tradition of business skill, of managerial skill, so there are bound to be failures, If-! were the minister I would not be discouraged by that fact and I would not mind any attacks on me for the number of failures unless the percentage rose to be outrageously high,of course. But be prepared for a fairly high incidence of failure in these enterprises. But remember always that every single individual ne~v job created in Newfoundland is a triumph,just as every job lost is a tragedy.

F.very job created that did not exist before, he v1ho makes two blades of grass to grow where one grew before, he v1ho creates one job that did not exist is a real patriot and a real builder with a creative purpose and a creative mission. 4286

Harch 31, 1976 Tape No. 1595 NN - 2 :MR. S}fALLtmnn: If I talk anymore I will want to go over there and change places with the minister. ~'R. CROSBIE: No. HR. SH!J'10NS: It is not that simple,is it? ~m. SPEAKER (MR. YOUNG): The hon. Minister of Industrial and Rural nevelopmen t. t1R. LUNDRIGAN: Hr. Speaker, I am making another statement. First of all I would suggest to the bon. gentleman that there is sixty-eight hours left in the estimates, that we can spend all - MR. Sn<MONS: ~r.

Speaker, on a point of order, if the minister is now responding to some comments I made I would like to have the same privilge to rebut and we can get into a general debate,but otherwise I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, that the thing to do now and the thing which is in order to do is for him to proceed with this second statement without attempting to rebut what I have said. sm"E RON. MEMBERS : Hear! Rear! ~'!!. LtlNDRI{;AN: Your Honour,! thought I was responding to a question. The hon. gentleman asked me a question, did he not? He had a five minute

preamble. He asked me a question. AN RON. !'1IDI13ER: The answer was yes. MR. LUNDRIGA.~: I am suggesting that I will spend the next sixty-eight hours on the estimates, answering questions on the Rural Development Authority and I will defen~ it for exactly that length of time. The two members on it, Mr. Archibald from Harbour Grace and }'r. Chris Pratt - MR. SIMMONS: Hr. Speaker, on a point of order. This is the time for making ministerial statements. The minister is now proceeding to rebut comments I have made. I can read into the record the names of the RDA people.

I thought it was not the appropriate time to do it and I refrained from doing ~o. He is now insisting on rebutting what I have said. He is strictly out of order. The floor was given to him by Mr. Speaker .so he could make a second ministerial statement,as I understand it. Now he either does that, Nr. Speaker, or he sits. down. 4287

'arc h 31, 1976 Tape No. 1595 MR. LUNDRIGAN: On that point of order Your Honour, that is exactly what I am attempting to do. MR. SPEAKER (MR. YOUNG): Order, please! The minister can, when he is making a ministerial statement he can reply to someone from the Opposition, to their comments on that statement. MR. SD!MONS: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. 'First of all let me say I am very pleased to hear that ruling,and 1nay I also ass<ume from it that we bave the same right to reply to what the minister has said. ~ RON. }!El-fBF.R: You have a debate now. MR. STI'U-IDNS: We have a debate now. MR. SPE~ (MR.

YOl~G): No, you are getting into a debate there now<. r1R. WELLS: ~r. Speaker, there is no such right of reply and there never has been in Parliament for an Opposition member to reply in some £ashion to a comment made by a minister. Now the minister has stood up at the reguest of the hon. member to answer a question wlU.ch the hon. member posed. As I said to Your Honour at the tilne it was out of order and better left for the question period. So then; of co~rse again we get into this mess. The minister has a right to make a statement, r•r.

Speaker, which I suggest that he be allowed to make. ~ SLM< ONS : Mr, Speaker, I do not have any further coliD!le!lts and I hope that - 4288

March 31, 1976 Tape no. 1596 Page 1 - mw _MR. ROBERTS: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Young): The hon. Leader of the Oppposition. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you. Mr. Speaker, to that point of order, because I think it is an important one and far beyond the conduct of the gentleman from Grand Falls (Mr. Lundrigan) on this occasion. I think the House Leader made a very wise observation when he said that - I think I am quoting him correctly - we had got into this mess, which he meant that a ministerial statement had threatened to give rise to what would have been a mini debate. Mr.

Speaker, I mean,the Question Period is another procedure altogether. The rules are quite clear, Sir. A minister, of course, has the right to make a statement. Gentlemen on this side, either leaders of a group ' or representing the leader of a group, which is the category my friend finds himself in at present, have the right to make a few comments in reply and ask a question or two. The gentleman from Burgee - Bay d 1 Espoir (Mr. Simmons) did ask a question. The minister answered it with the simple word, 'yes,' and that should end the matter there. I think my colleague and friend from Burgee - Bay d'Espoir (Mr.

Simmons) was quite right, and I think the House Leader would agree with him in saying that there should be no debate. My friend raised the point of order, and made the rhetorical point that if the minister was going to debate, he wanted to , but the minister - and this is really the gist of what I am saying - the minister, Sir, was attempting to launch into a debate. We would love nothing better than to debate the Rural Development Authority, because the government have tried to hide it for the last two or three years.

We are not allowed to at this time, Sir, so we will have to wait for the estimates, and we hope that Rural Development will be called early on, and then we will have the chance to expose the great unsavoury situation that exists in that division right now. 4289

March 31, 1976 Tape no. 1596 Page 2- mw MR. LUNDRIGAN: On that same point of order. I wonder would Your Honour rule me out of order so I can get on with my next statement, please. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! ~ffi. SPEAKER (Mr. Young): with h1s statement. I would ask the hon. minister to continue on MR. LUNDRIGAN: Thank you. I have been ruled out of order and I can take that kind of stuff, Your Honour. I have now been around the ball game for a few years, and I understand it a bit. I have a statement to make,Your Honour,on the !Uening Telegram which was published in Newfoundland yesterday.

The Evening Telegram ..,if anybody would have seen it~ the only discouraging part - }ffi. ROBERTS: Point of order, Mr. Speaker. The hon. gentleman is an experienced parliamentarian, and I give way to him, but the only way he could raise a statement on the Evening Telegram would be as a matter of privilege, Sir, and that must be raised at the earliest opportunity. The earliest opportunity is the same as the moment taken by the gentleman from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) who made a statement of privilege earlier on, Sir.

The practice in this House is of long standing, Sir, that if a member objects to something the paper says about him or does not say about hi$, he raises it either in debate or he raises it when Your Honour takes the Chair at three o'clock. MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Young): The hon. Minister of Industrial and ~ural Development. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Speaker, on that same point of order. If the hon. member would keep his yap closed and his mind open, he will understand that my statement is a statement quite in order on motions, and I wish to - MR. ROBERTS: MR. LU!iDRIGAN: get tocpoint - What has happen@d to th@ point of ord@r?

If I might pursue the matter, Your Honour, I think I will MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Young) : He is speaking on the point of order.

March 31, 1976 Tape no. 1596 Page 3 - mw MR. LUNDRIGAN: - where the Leader of the Opposition will understand - MR. ROBERTS: Let us have a ruling on a point of order. MR. LUNDRIGAN: - will understand that this is a legttimate statement on motions and not a question of privilege. MR. ROBERTS: Let us having a ruling on the point of order. MR. SPEIIER(Mr. Young): I think we are getting more or less into debate. MR. WELLS: If I may, Mr. Speaker. The han. member had hardly got his mouth open - I do not know nor anybody else what he was going to say.

P·erhaps Your Honour could listen to what he was going to say and then we can determine if it is in order or not. MR.SPEAKER (Mr. Young): Yes, I would ask the hon.Mlnister of Industrial and Rural Development to continue. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Yes, Sir, the only people who might want to rise on the question of privilege on this particular paper would be the newspaper carriers, because of its bulk, but my statement is a very complimentary one.

I wish to announce that as a result of our overseas trip several weeks ago we disuovered, not to our amazement, but to our satisfaction that we have a tremendous army of people overseas in the various embassies, Canadian embassies, that are very, very expert in the commercial field on industries within various countries, the countries that they are stationed in, and of course, are familiar and conversant with o.r own country as a result of their participation overseas, as a result of being born and bred in Canada.

And we were really surprised to know how professional and how caap•tent and how knowledgeable some of our people were in various embassies on Newfoundland. It is quite a credit to us to know that over the years we have made that kind of communications. Yesterday Mr. Bob Merner was in from Oslo, and I believe met some people here in the City, and I can mention a dozen other names of commercial attaches and commercial people in various embassies who have done a tremendous job. When we were in South America not too long ago the reception we received 4291

March 31, 1976 Tape no. 1596 Page 4 - mw Mr. Lundrigan. and the knovledge that had been acquired by people who anticipated our coming was very , very co111endable. As a result of that we have in Industrial Development tried to take advantage of the expertise and we try to work with the knowledge we have of the Industry, Trade and Co111111erce and the minister in that department, Mr. Jamieson, to try to have those people, this army of people, put to work in Newfoundland. And yesterday)

:.:L Varch 31, 1 Cl76 Tape 1597 IB-1 f>'R. LUNJ:I~IC:AN: I want to pay a compliment to The Evening Telegram and also suggest that they might decide on the way to offer their newsmen, their news­ boy carriers - I have got tlvo1 by the way, ready to go on strike, my two oldest boys - that when they get a bulky paper of ~his nature they might offer them some kind of an incentive.

This was a marvellous paper and I heard people stand up in the House for so many days and make some reference to the press, that I thought that it was about ti~e that we passed on from Industrial nevelopment what we did with yesterday's Evenin g Tele gram . The Telegram had four sections which devoted themselves to the industrial business in the Province, the industrial business review and forecast. In that

section almost every aspect of development in the Province was touched on, some ne.gative, some references to negative aspects of our economy which gives it the authenticity that we would like to have in it in sending it overseas. I have asked my people to send the Telegram ~long with the package of other materials whfch t.re will be sending on a regular basis to some twenty-five or thirty embassies in various countries. This is a marvellous production. I would like to commend whoever is responsible for it.

The articles are articles on every aspect of the. in<' us try. ~ome of it is resume's of act :lvities during the year. Some of these are extracts from activities that have been reported on during the year by various ministers and various public officials, boards of trade and other people. I thought it was an dndication of a tremendous work effort on everybody's part. I am sure that the Telegram staff received good co-operation from the departiDents as I am aware of from my own department and several other ministers.

I just wanted to pass along a bouquet,with the permission of the Leader of the Opposition,and hope that his interjection today and his foot and mouth disease will terminate at the end of this session. SO'IAE RON • }'E~'BERS : Hear, hear! 4293

~~arch 31, 1 CJ76 Tape 1597 IB - 2 HI'.. Sl'EAKF:r. : ( ~ lr. Youn g) : T'1 e hon. member for Burgeo-Bay n 'Espoj _r. ~ITI . SI ON~ : Yr. Speaker, I ,,•cmld certainly like to reply to the statement AN liON. !~HIBE P : There is no right of repJy. ~T. ~ODY.RTS: Of course there is! l'JL SD'J•ONS: 1-'r. Speaker, if it was a ministerial stateynent, which I doubt, l'r. Speaker, which I doubt,but he said it was and I take his word for it, ~·r. Spe2ker. I am still wondering what it is he tried to say but I would like to reply to it an~~ay.

The odds are that I will make no less intelligent a stab at it than he did in making the statement. We "'ill try anyway. I would like to respon d to the statement nade by the minister about what he has done with the ne,~spaper, and I should ljke to use thjs opportunity to say what I have done wjth it since we are all getting up and telling what we are dojng with our ne~rspapers <-rhen we are finished with them. I support his impassioned plea for special bonuses for youngsters ~o carry more than the sixteen pages on a given day. The mj.nister is reall y m ore than ever, }1r. Speaker, onto the job at hand.

If he had a couple of more departments we would hardly need a Premier, l'r. Speaker. Hhat an abuse of the item on the agenda called Statements 'Jy l1 jnisters. I hope this is the very last, l'r. Speaker, we see of that k:lnrl of charade that he just went through then. If he had got nothing more concrete to report to this House as to what his department is rlojng than the kind of nonsense we just heard from hi~ jn the last five minutes, let us hope that is his last ministeri a l statement, Yr. Speaker. I say that charitably to him and to this House. MR . ROBERTS : Here is to the one ' Peckford' - HR.

Ll'NDP.IGAN: The fact that Your Honour - 1'-'Jl. SPEAI<EP 0'r . Yeung): Order, please! Order, please! )olR. LUNDPIGAN: - I would lock him up and chop him up a 1 ittle! 4294

~·arch 31, 1976 Tape 1597 IB-3 t-m . ROBERTS: Point of order. Here we go again with the minister, cOlllhative as he is, pugnacious as he is, trying to have a debate. Well, Jo!r. Spe~er, I am all for a debate. I am all for a debate, Sir, but I only ask if we are going to.have a debate that bQth sides be allowed to get into it and not just the pugnacious, combative minister, the g~ntleman for Grand Falls (~r. Lunqrigan),Sir. MR. SPEAKER: (Mr. Young) Th,e ruling on that is a difference of o~inion between two members.

I would like to welcome to our galleries a scout group from Vanier School, Ennis Avenue, and their teacher, Mr. Ben .Gardner. SO~ HON. ~~. >~ERS: Hear, hear! PRESENTING PETITIONS: 'tolR~ .SPEAKER (1-!r. Young): The hon, Leader of the Opposition. ¥F.. ROBEPTS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I have a petition to present, Sir, which While it is not I

March 31, 1976 Tape No. 1598 H'P .. ROBEP.TS: numerically the largest petition by far ever presented in this House,and while it may not be the most elegantly worded petition ever presented I believe, Sir, it is the most important ever to be presented in this House and 1 vd.sh to say a few Pards in presenting the petition and NJ-1. - 1 I l1elieve the Yinister of Hines and Energy ~•ill say a few words and I would hope other hon. gentlemen do as well, Sir. I think the matter is worthy of comment' from a number of members of this Rouse ~vho share what I believe v'ill be our common concern.

The petition, Sir, comes from people ~vho live along the Southern Labrador Coast in the conmunities between L 'Anse-au-Clair .. ~'hfch is the community next to the border bebveen this Province and the Provtnce of nuebec,and the community of Red Bay to the north, the communities along the road. It,I believe,also carries with ft the support of r>eople in Port Hope Simpson and the Mary's Harbour, l'ox Rar.,our aren ,and as Hell I am told that there 1s in the mail a petit1on sirned by people at English Point and Forteau, another thirty-eipht or forty names to be added to this.

The petition, Sir, is quite simply stated and I v1ill read the Horcls of it. "He as people of Labrador do hereby petition the ~0vcrnment of Ne~vfoundland and Labrador to reconsider the proposal to construrt the tunneJ from the Newfoundland side of the Strai .ts ~. nd proceed with the ttmnel as previously planned equally from both s :irles. If there j_s not sufficient funds to do this we demand that it be constructed from the Labrador side." No<•T , Hr. Speaker, this petition came in to St.

John's accompaniecJ . ~lY a delegation of ten or eleven or twelve citizens representing councils c.nd development groups in the area concerned, some if not all of '~hom are in the r;aller:les today. Earlier this day t!1e delegation met, accompanied by tl e p;entleman from Eagle Piver and myself,met ~lith the ~'inister of "1nes and F.nergy, accompanied by one or two of his senior officials from the Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro Corporation, 429o

Mat"ch 31, 1976 Tape NO. 1598 NM- 2 MP, . ROBERTS: the developers of the tunnel project. The minister will doubtless wish to say a few words on this aspect of it,but let me say that~ understanding as a result of the meeting this morning, is that the premise on which the pe'tition is based is not strictly speaking correct. I do not think the government have decided~and this is what the minister told us, to proceed with the tunnel only from the Newfoundland side. The matter is very much under review.

I do not want to go into it in detail because my time is limited, but suffice it to say that the government made it clear through the mtni~ter this morning that the matter is under review, whether there will be a tunnel built at all this year, whether a start will he made at all this year and if it is to be made whether it will be from both sides of the Straits or simply one side,and if it is one side at present the thought would be to favour the island, the Newfoundl~nd side.

Sir, the point of this petition is that the people in Labrador South, the southern part of Labrador, ~art now of the district of the Straits of Belle Isle and part of it in the district of Eagle River, very, very strongly and passionately reject that concept. They made their feelings clear this morning. They have ·asked me to present the petition in the House and I do so with pleasure and lvi th support. Their point is clear, Sir. The real meaning of the petition though, Mr.

Speaker, and I realize I have probably gone beyond the five minutes, but if I might be allmved a second or two more, Sir; the real point of this petition is not just in the construction of a tunnel and whether it starts on the Labrador side or on the Newfoundland side and no matter where it starts both sides will have to be built and it will have to be built from both ends of the tunnel. The real point of the petition of course is the feeling which continues to grow among the people of the Mainland portion of this ~rovince,and which was made clear agin · this morning, 4297

~ 'arch 31, 1976 Tape No. 1598 NM - 3 !'ll. RORERTS: a feeling of neglect by the government, and I might add by all governments, it was not confined to the present admlnistration, a very real feeling as to whether the political future of these people of that part of our Province lies within the present political structure. 4298

!>-larch 31, 1976 Tape 1599 IB-1 :MR. PO'BERTS: Mr. Speaker, the petition is underlain and supported very strongly by that feeling. Tbe feeling is there that, as one member put it, "Why do we alwB:YS _get the short end of the stick?" That is why I support quite strongly the point that if the tunnel can start only from one side I would urge that every possible consideration be given to the suggestion that it start from the I.abrador side. The feeling is there, ~r. Speaker, It is real. We cannot ignore it. We cannot pretend it is not there.

I believe that as public men and women concerned with the future of this Province we must meet that feeling head on and try our best to deal with it. I felt the meeting which the delegation had with the Minister of Mines and Energy-and I do not speak for the delegation on this, I hav~ not sounded their views - but I felt it was a productive meeting. The minister heard us out courteously, supplied information, responded to points and questions and I believe is now cognizant of the feeling of the people in that part of the district of the Strait of Belle Isle.

I commend the petition to the House, Sir, but in so doing I even more strongly commend the concern which we must all feel with the belief which is spreading and is growing in strength among many people in this Province, that the present political system is not dealing fairly and squarely and properly with their legitimate aspirations. I think, Sir, that is a subject with which each citizen of this Province should be concerned. I am concerned. I believe the minister is concerned. So are my colleagues and I hope every bon. member is. Tbis petition,- Sir, is a good way to express that concern. AN HON.

ME}'BER: Hear, hear! SOME RON. }~ERS: Hear, hear! -~· SPEAKER: t~. CP.OSBIE: The bon. Minister of Mines and Energy. Mr. Speaker, I am certainly glad and I am sure the government is glad to receive the petition the hon. gentleman has presented. There is no question of course that the petitioners and 4299

~•arch 31, 1976 Tape 1599 IB-2 ~ '1'. CROSBIE: their representatives feel strongly about this matter, particularly since I beJieve the delegation is nine people from Labrador South, what usen to he called Labrador South. - !--11'. nOBEr.TS: Southern Labrador. 1"11 .• CPOSBIE: - Southern Labrador -has come through difficult weather cond:!.tions to St. John's in connection with this matter. Now, Hr.

Speaker, as I explained to the representatives of the petitioners this morning, the position is that it is the government's intention to proceed, as members of the House know, from the statements made last Pall, with the transmission line and the tunnel during this present year. But as I made clear last Fall there are certain matters that have to be agreed and successfully concluded first before 1~e can be sure that this intention will be carried into action this year.

That princtpally involves matters which are under discussion now with the Government of Quebec and l')uebec Hydro in connection with securing additional energy and other matters in connection with the 1~hole hydro development of Labrador.

The petitioners heard a report on the roast that - and they <~ere told - that the government was contemplating or government was going to make a decision in the next couple of days on commencing the tunnel under the Straits by proceeding with the shaft on the Flmvers Cove side of the ~traits first ,with the shaft digging on the Labrador s:l.de to be delayed until the following year or delayed :Indefinitely. But that is not correct, Yr. Speaker, and I have told them that it is not correct.

All that :!s happening is that the engineers and the people in charge of this project are examining various aJ.ternatives as to whether they should commence both shafts on each side at the same time,or commence one shaft on one s1de some six months before they commence the shaft on the other side. No recommendations have yet been made to government in that connection. vfuen we know for sure that there is no impediment to 4300

farch 31, 1976 Tape 1599 IB-3 _MR. CROSBIE: the whole project procei!!ding this year there will have to be rec0111111endations made. There are certain technical reasons which migh·t favour commencing the shaft on the Flowers Cove side in the Fall this year,witb the abaft on the Labrador side starting so~ six manths later. These are just alternatives that are being looked at. The governl!le!lt has not been asked to make a decis .ion: There has been no repert = that.

Therefore the matter i .s not yet before the gove'ftlment, I certainly qnderstand and appreciate the very strong feelings of , the people on the Coast of Labrador, their feeiing that if work is to -start on (lne side bef"ore the other that it be on the Labrador side. That will certainly be kept in mind. Ropefully work will start on both sides at the Slll!le til.\le when it starts. So their representations are certainly being received and will be very carefully considered. When we know exactly what the position is c!uring tbi~ year they will be informed just what the situation :i.s.

A visit wf.ll be made to both sides of the Straits to discuss what the operations are for the coming year and just how they ar·e going to be carried out, if we can go ahead with the p.roject as we planned to go &head with it • Certainly 4301

March 31,1976 Tape 1600 PK- 1 Mr. Crosbie: when it comes time to make any decision on any proposal which may never even be made that one side be started before the other, their views and their concerns will certainly have a big bearing on any decision that is made. As I say, in that sense. it is · premature, Mr. Speaker, because the matter is not yet before us. And it has to be understood that the engineers and those in charge of the project have to examine all alternatives as to the best way technically and economically and to go ahead with the project. Mr.

Speaker, I am quite familiar with the Labrador side of the Straits of Belle Isle having been there in Summer and also during the Winter on a quick trip. It is a beautiful part of the Province. We realize that the people there want economic activity, and they want the jobs, and they want improved facilities and we are well aware of that, and we hope that is what they are going to get.

When we know exactly what our ?lans are this year and that the project is going ahead, as we hope it will be, as we intend that it shoula,then we will set up a mechanism for communications with the people on both of the Straits, some formal device, some representation for the people down there who can meet with hydro of fie i.a.ls and those in charge of the project from time to time, be kept fully up to date and consulted as to what they think, and what their views are on all of these questions. So, Mr. Speaker, I hope that the delegation and the petitions can be assured, no decision has been made.

It is unlikely in my view that any decision would be made that was unfavourable to the point of view they project . If the facts and the figures were such to dicatate any decision in that direction we would certainly discuss it fully with them. And we are glad to have them here. We realize their concern and we are doing everything in our power to improve the relationship for the Labrador part of the Province because I am sure that we are all working in this House for the full development of all parts of the Province. SOME RON • MEMBERS : Hear, hear! 4302

March 31. 1976 Tape 1600 PK - 2 MR. SPEAKER (MR. YOUNG): The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to support the petition presented by the member for the Straits of Belle Isle, the Leader of the Opposition,in behalf of his constitutents in Southern Labrador, The prayer of the petition, Sir, makes a very, very good point indeed. And unfortunately, Mr.

Speaker, the delegation that went to such tremendous expense and inconvenience to come down here to the Island of Newfoundlaud,after listening to the Minister of Mines and Energy today will have to report back to their people that they just do not know whether or not the prayer of the petition is going to be answered. I never heard a minister before, Sir, in my life do such fancy footwork, figure-skating on thin ice, not giving a straight answer. These people came here, travelled here to the Island fro• the most neglected part of this Province, if there is a part of this Province, ~lr.

Speaker, that is neglected it is Southern LabradorL SOME RON. MEMBERS : Rear, hear! MR. NEARY: Not Northern Labrador, not the Island of Newfoundland. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (MR. YOUNG): Order, please! MR. NEARY: Southern Labrador, the most neglected part of Newfoundland. And we hear rumbles of separating from the Province of Newfoundland, and so forth and I do not take this serious but these people have come with a legitimate request and they did not get a straight answer, and they are going to have to go back. MR. CROSBIE: They got a straight answer. MR.

NEARY: They:,got a minister that did some fancy figure-skating on thin ice. MR. SPEAKER (MR. YOUNG): Order, please! MR. MURPHY: They got an honest answer. MR. NEARY: They did not get an honest answer. They did not get an answer. They have to report back to their people that they do not know whether the prayer of their petition is going to be granted or not. They are entitled to better than that a'ter coming all of the way down here from Southern Labrador this time in the year. 4303

larch 31, 1976 Tape H'OO PK- 3 PREMIER ~~ORES : What would you suggest 1 a dishonest answer? l·!R. NEARY: No, Sir, 1 would give them a straight answer. Fot the last two weeks in this hon . House, ~r r. Speaker, I have been tTying to pry the informati on about that tunnel out of tbe Hinister of Mines and Eu.ergy, and I have not been able to get a straight answer. We do not know whether i t is going to go ahead or not. l<e do not know where it is going to start. Last Fall it was different, there was no ifs, an(ls and buts, uo strings attached.

Last Fall it was going ahead from both ends, and they set off a charge of dyuam:l.te down there, and a puff of smoke went up in the air . It was all smoke and no fire. These people deserve better , Sir. No wonder they are getting disgrun tled and disillusioned in Labrad .or. I hope that this cruel attitude that is being displayed by the gove~ent in this particular case will soon be put to an end, and within twenty-four hours the minister should give a straight ansver. Ml,t. MURPHY: Y:ou are not being honest now. MR. NEARY: I am being honest, Sir.

Last Fall when we debated it in this House.r s·upported that tunnel, Sir. There were members on this side that voted against it. I was one of the few members on this side of the House, as a matter of fact I think I was the only one who voted in support of that tunnel and the transmission line, 4304

March 31, 1976 Tape no. 1601 Page 1 - mw Mr. Neary. and I want to see it started. It is the obvious thing to do to link the Island of Newfoundland up with the matnland part of the Province, not because of the development of the Lower Churchill. It is the obvious thing to do anyway.if we are going to own and control and develop Labrador. So, Mr. Speaker, I have no hesitation at all in supporting the prayer of that petition.

And in so doing I have to express my disappoinament of the attitude of the government - another case of arrogance, Sir, and lack of consideration for people who live in the rural parts of this Province. MR. SPEAKER (YOUNG): The hon. th~ me~~er for Eagle RivP.r. MR. STRACHAN: Mr. Speaker, in supporting the prayer of the petition - if I can be light-hearted for a moment - there is a joke in Labrador which says the tunnel should start and end in Labrador. If this project goes ahead I support this petition that the work should be shared equally on both sides of the Straits.

I understand from the minister that the final decision has not been made to consider the whole future of the tunnel. But if so, I think if there is any preference at all, the preference should be to commence the tunnel on the Labrador side.

But, however, certainly the people in expressing themselves this morning stated satisfaction as long as the tunnel started equally, and the work was shared equally on opposite sides of the Straits, If this work is shared equally then I think that we could see a real joining of this Province, the mainland part being joined with the Island part, and the Island part being joined with the mainland part.

If this project starts at the Island of Newfoundland side and commences from that side and progresses aaross then we will feel in Labrador that once again the great milking machine has been snaking across to drain the resources of Labrador. I think this administration has the opportunity now to make a real union of the two separate parts of this Province. I think they have the opportunity, and I support the prayer of the petition. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear , hear! 4305

March 31, 1976 Tape no. 1601 Page 2 - mw MR . S PEAKE~ (Mr. Young): The hon . member for Twillingate, HR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, as the hon. gentleman who just sat down said, so I say, if the tunnel is built then it ought to be built ln such a way as to give at least equal treatment to both sides of the Strait, at least equal treatment. Now if that tunnel is built it will not be the first such tunnel to be built. A great many tunnels have been built in many parts of the world, not all of them that long, some of them longer.

The last time I was in Hong Kong -maybe the Minister of Mines and Energy when he was in Hong Kong went through the tunnel across under the harbour. And in building these tunnels, Sir, it is quite common - happens very frequently - that the tunnel is built simultaneously from two ends towards the middle. I have always marvelled, in my own mind, at the wonderful science, the wonderful exactness, the wonderful precision, of engineers to be able to begin a tunnel under the ocean, under the water and come along miles apart and meet and not be an inch out . ~ffi.

NEARY: They were doing it on Bell Island for years and years. ~ffi.SMALLWOOD: In the submarine mines? NR. NEARY: Yes, Sir. MR. S!o!ALLWOOD: Yes. Tunnels,whether under the ocean or not, tunnels under the land - they built one in New York, an underground tunnel, a lot of Newfoundlanders worked on it, hundreds of Newfoundlanders worked on the building of that tunnel. It was a tunnel,! do not know how many miles long,to bring a supply of water down into the great city of New York. That tunnel must have been thirty or forty miles long. And it was so big and high and wide that you could drive trucks through it.

It must have been fifty or sixty feet tvide and thirty or forty feet high and thirty or forty miles long, and all of it underground, and all of it through solid rock, and that was built in that way. Indeed, Sir, it was built not from two ends but it was built in several sections, 4306

~iarch 31, 1976 Tape 1602 IB-1 ·~. S¥ALLHOOD: and engineering science is so good 1 nmv as it was then 1 that you can build them underground you mip,ht say in the dark, almost doing it blind, yet

section by

section can he made to meet exactly ~-,ithin quarter of an inch so that there is no such thing as missing, The minister of course has to say - I must say I cannot bJame him for saying -he has to say that he has to be advised by the engineers. Hell,H the engineers advise upon that tunnel thelr advice has to be, it cannot help but be that it should be built from hath sides at the one time and meet somewhere in the middle. Now if the tunnel is huil t the very least we can do is to play it fair and square with both sides of the Straits. MR. SPEAKER: '~:he hon. the Premier. P11.EMIER JI'IOOPES: 11r.

Speaker, in rising to support the petition it is most unfortunate -.•hen a petition like this comes before the Rouse that any political advantage is tried to be made of condemning one sirle or the other,like the Member for LaPoile O<r. Neary) did.

But what I can say is that we are totally cognizant of the fact that the need for employment, the need for activity on both sides of the Straits is equally great. r.ertainly if anything the Labrador si_de even more so because of the Jack of possibility of mob Hi ty for empJoyment that to a Jesser degree is possible on the Island side nf the Strait~. !lut the prindple, Sir, of building the tunnel large enough to not just facilitate the transmission lines,which in fact could take v fairly small tunnel, the fact that it is being ~esignec to hopefully take traffic, not just of commerce but of people, I think, is probably in the long-term more important than bringing the transmission line itself. 1 think the connection for human transportation, I think the connection <Vhereby the people on the Labrador roast and the people on ' the Island side of the Straits can be in communication, I think it is very important.

It i.s ironic, Sir, that '"e nmv have reached a sta!!e where contracts for the excavation, some have been let, some have not for 4307

~'arch 31, 1976 Tape 1602 IB-2 PRErUER MOORES: the tunnel. As the ~'inister of 1-!i.nes and Energy said we have to await a reply from the engineers before a definit:l.ve decis:l.on is 1!12de,plus other people '"e are negotiating with, l:l.k.e the Province of ~uebec, the Federal Government of Canada and so on. It seems :l.ronic that just a very fe"' years ago this was looked upon almost as an impossible dream.

I know the story that during I guess the 1971 election that I often used and I know other people did as well was a story of the tender being let for the tunnel itself and the lowest bidder was $200 million except for one gentleman - I think he was from Flowers Cove -who put in a bid for $40,000. }ffi . NEARY: I thought there was no politics? PREMIER MOORES: This is not politics. NP •• NEA1>Y: I see, that is not politics only when I say it. PREMIER ~mORES : Now, ~·r. Speaker, the story is that when the tunnel was bi~ on for $40,000 they had to go up and see what this man had in mincl.

He said, "Well, there are a lot of us not doing much during the Hinter and we will dig the tunnel across the Straits'!

The guy said, "Well first of all do you realize how long it would take you because if you cU.d not start from the other sic'!e you would never get it fin:l .shed'l" The guy said, "Well, if you are in a rush we "'ill go to the other side and get the thing going." He said, "Well, where is your engineer to make sure you meet in the middle?" He sa:l.d, ''!~ell old man,if we do not meet in the middle I guess you will get two tunnels for the price of one, will you not?" Hopefully, Sir, this one w:!Jl be more properly planned and we can get job development.

I would like also to support the people from the Coast in this regard. SO}$ HON. }!Er'BERS: l!ear, hear! ! ~. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Fogo. CAY_ . HINSOB: r-<r. Speaker, much against my better judgement I rise to support th:ls petition. Now the tunnel across the Strait of Belle Isle is nothing new, since as far back as 1937 a survey 4308

"arch 31, 1976 Tape 1602 1B- 3 CAPT • tHNSCll: was made to carry it out in connection with the Green Bay port. ! clo not remember it but 1 eo have so~e information which was reported on a private and a conHeential document dealing with that tunnel. The tunnel at that ttme was estimated to cost around $15 million , and it would take three to five years to construct. Of course, with our advancement in technology it would not t~e that long today if we could af fore\ to c:'o 1 t. But my point is, ~lr. Speaker - and 1 will say so now, and knowing very well that 1 "..f.ll be criticized - 1 would say 4309

March 31, 197 6 Tape No. 1603 NM- 1 CAPT. WINSOR: to the delegation who came here today to meet with the Minister of Mines and Energy that they will not see that tunnel in their lifetime, and let us not fool them. Let us give them the facts, Mr. Speaker, that Newfoundland cannot afford that tunnel and unless the federal government enters into the pictuu· and finances the tunnel that Strait of Belle Isle w1.11 remain as it is today.

So, therefore, Sir, in clear conscience I cannot support the petition in reality knowing that within my lifetime and perhaps within the lifetime of mv children that that tunnel will not be built. ~. SPEAKER(~. YOiffiG): The hon. Minister of Social Services. J.IR. BRETT: Mr. Speaker, I finally got the much talked about and much publicized petition from Clarenville with respect to the hospital,and I beg your leave now to present it on behalf of 3,540 7and I added my name so I guess that is 3,541 residents of the area between Bonavista and Arnold's Cove.

I might add, Sir, that there are names on the petition from as far away as Burin. This is far short of the number of names or signatures that the forerunners of this petition had hoped to get. They were hoping to get in the vicinity of 20,000 and as I said there are only 3,540. 'rhe prayer of the petition is ,and I ~•ill read it to the hon. House of Assembly, "The prayer o:fthe undersigned residents of the Trinity Bay, rlarenville and Bonavista Bay areas showeth that the need for a hospital to serve the whole Bonvaista, Clarenville area has been accepted by the Gove~ent of Newfoundland and Labrador.

Plans have advanced to the point where a site has been cleared. The government has announced that project would be started in the Spring of 1976." I think what thev mean there is the government had announced. "All the me<iical doctors in the area have signed the petition caJling for an immedi~te start of construction of the Clarenville Regional Hospital. The health care and social needs of the area have 4310

"<trch 31, 1'176 ~'-., HR. BRETT: not diminished nnd to these needs have been added. the need for act:l .on to lessen the economic shock caused by the close­ dm-m of the Come By rhance oil refinery. We therefore pray that the government immediately proceed ~vith the construction of a regional hospital for Clarenville and the pet:f.ti oners as are duty bound will ever pray." And then, Hr.

Speaker, on the bottom of that petition is another sentence nhicl' says, "Printed and circulated by VOCM and CKVO .11 No~1 I am very much awa-re of the rules of the Rouse and that I have to speak to the prayer of the petition, However, even thour;h I l:.noH i.t is professionally and politically unethicnl to disagree 1,,1th my collear,ues on this side of the House, I am forced to tnday bec~ur;e I under -stand, I ~vas ncit in the Chamber yesterday, but T underst?nd that one of my colleagues did make some remarks to the effect that vncy should not have been involved in this.

They did not tnke into consideration the financtal position of the ~ovcrnment and so on and so forth. I believe very stronr,ly that radio station vno<, as any station in this Province, have a right to go into the Trinity area of Trinity North, Bonavista South or wherever and to support the people in an effort like this. SOI'E )'lnN. ~EMBEP-S: Hear! Hear! •m. BRETT: I can only say, ~r. Speaker, that that particular radio station are good corporate citizens of Glarenville and I am extremely happy that they are there.

They have been very helpful to every organization in Clarenville and I have no doubt ~vhatsoever in r.~y mind that they ~d 11 continue to be and again I say I can only compliment them. ~o~~ I want to make a f~• more remarks. It is difficult to present a petition like this because I knmv that there are going to be people, hen. gentlemen over there,who are going to go after my hide the minute I sit down so I am going to have to be partisan. But I, as I said, I signed the petition. I realized that I had to do it before I could present it, and the few remarks that I have to make,as I said,may be 4311

March 31, 1976 Tape No. 1604 ID' - 1 MR. BRETT: a little partisan. I will keep it as low as I can. Sometime in 1958, I think, I am not sure, I stand to be corrected on the year, but I believe it was 1958 if that was the year of a general election, the previous administration promised not one hospital but two in Clarenville and I suppose I could end it off by saying here now,you know,who are they going to trust after this? But anY9ay - AN RON . ~ffiMBER : ~o hospitals. Y.P.. BRETT : Two, not one but two • .AN RIJN . 'MEl''ffiER: In the same town. MR . BRETT: The same town. ~. MURPHY: Different streets. MR .

BRETT: Different streets. Now obviously, nr. Speaker, that promise was never fulfilled. I do not know why. I was not in the government. v~at I know of it at that time there was no scarcity of monev. there was plenty of it on the go. But,as I said,the promise was nev£r fulfilled and we were never given a reason as to why it was not. But I became involved possibly two or three years after that in an exercise identical to this. I was at the time a very active member of the Clarenville Lions Club and we sponsored the petition then to have a hospital built in the area, and we succeeded.

Unfortunately we did not have a local radio station to assist us so we had to burn our own gas and use our own time. But we succeeded in getting many more signatures that this. The petition was forwarded to the administration of the day. I do not know to what department, if it was to the member or to the Department of Health I do not know,but it was forwarded to this building. v~ether or not it was ever presented in the House I do not know,but again, I get back to the statement I made just now, no action was ever taken. Now if I still have the time I will just very briefly give you the 4312

~'arch 31, 1976 Tape No. 1604 NM- 2 ~m. BRETT: history of what has happened as far as this political promise is concerned. In March of 1973 this government decided after consultation with federal officials of the Department of National Health and Helfare in Ottawa to build a regional hospital at ~larenville. I think subsequently that it was decided that there would be two hospitals built, one in Burin and one in Clarenville.

Each year thereafter funds were allocated to do the function of planning ~·Th:l.ch,by the way,has been completed, to do the architectural planning,which has not been started,to prepare the site and in general to get ready for construction. Now the site work was completed durinr, the Fall of 1975 and I kno1v what people are saying about that. But it was the intention of government to start construction this coming Spring.

Now the unfortunate part about it, and it does not give me any pleasure any more than it does anybody else on this side of the House, it does not give me any pleasure to say that we are unable to fulfill our wishes and our desires. Now I hope the Opposition will not make too much political hay out of it,~ecause as I said both sides have promised it, the only rlifference is that that side promised two, we only promised one. HR. MTTRPHY: Yours is the most recent one. MR. B~ETT: I have to point out. ~'R, SPEAKER (~. YoUNG): I wish to advise the hon.

Hinister of Energy that his time has expired, unless it is the 1dsh of the House that he continue. ~'R. BRETT: I ~~onder could I have another couple of minutes by leave. Sm'E HON. ~·'EMBERS: By leave. MR. SPEAKER (MR. YOUNC): By leave, MR. BRETT: I just wanted to point out, I will probably be a little faster, that ~re along with the other provinces are finding it necessary to cut back on those services. It is a well known fact 4313

1-latch. 31, 1976 Tape No. 1604 Nl-' - 3 MR. B'R.ETT: by now that we have to close down 200 hospital beds. This is being done in consultat ion with the Newfoundland ~edical Association. Everybody is aware of the fact tr~t the federal government is cutting back on the cost of Medicat e and I think it is fair to say tha::: everyone in Newfoundland, the Atlantic Provinces, in fact all actoss Canada is very much aware that the service departments of governments are taking more and more of our total reven ue,and I d .o believe that the Opposition are equally as concerned as we are to that extent.

Personally I want to see that hospital as much, I suppose more than anybody, if for no other reasons for policial rea.sons, but I am a res ident of Clarenville and I know what it is to have to drive to St. John's. But at the same time, as a responsibile member of this goverrunent, I realize,and I have to go along with my government in this action, i ! we do not take some firm steps to put the Province on a firm foot:ing then we will not remain solvent. We had to take some very unpopular steps and one of the ones that we bad to take was not to continue with the building of these hospi tal s. In clos ing, ~'r .

Speaker, 4314

March 31, 1Q7t'i. I!R. BRETl': Tape lliOS RH - 1 let me reiterate that I support the petition,and I trust that the financed position of our Province 'dll improve in the not too distant future so that He can build that hospital. ~IR. NEARY: Hear, hear: HR. llRETT: Sir, I ask that this petition be placed upon the table of the House and referred to the department to which it relates. ~1R. SPEAKER(Hr, Young): The hon. member for Baie Verte-White Ray. MR. T. RinF:OUT: Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to rise on behalf of my colleagues on this side of the House in support of the petition.

I am not rising to go after the hide of the 1 on. member. We are very pleased that he presented :!,t and we are very pleased and '~ish to compliment radio station VOr.H that they circulated the petition. It is not important who did it. I think the concept of the petition, the idea behind it,is important and ~re certainly support that. I think, 'fr. Speaker, speaking in support of this petition, that the petition itself brings out the contradiction in government policy with regard to hospitals and hospital expansion that we are now faced with following the budget of only a few days ago.

It is very difficult to rationalize how He can embark on a programme of hospital expansion and hospital construction,yet at the same time be able to justify closing down a ·couple of hundrerl hospital beds throughout the Province. That to me seems to he a contradiction and I cannot see how it can be justified. If the hospital at Clarenville is necessary,and I am sure it is, if the hospital at Rurin is necessary,and I am sure it is, if the hospital expansion at Grand Falls is necessary,and I am sure it is, then how can we cut back a couple of hundrerl hospital beds and still maintain that as ~overnment nolicy?

Also in supporting this petition I want to note that only a week or a couple of 'veeks ago, I believe it was, I noted that the medical experts of the Bonavista Peninsula had made their wishes known to the ~inister of Health that that hospital was certainly needed for that area. Again, I know 4315

March 31, 1976. MR . RIDEOUT : Tape 1605 RR - 2 we are in a programme of restraint but we certainly support the hospital, w~ support the petition and we call upon the government to take it under proper advisement. MR . SPEAKER(Mr. Young): The•hon. member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoit. MR. R. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, just a word or two in support of the petition. My colleague from Baie Verte-White Bay has said just about everything that needs to be said, but I would just like to rise and support the petition in view of my particular interest in that area over a number of years.

The'· minister did not mention in presenting the petition that of the 3,514 at least a conple were - 3,514? Pardon? AN RON. MEMBER: 3,501. MR. SIMMONS: 3,501. Well, Mr. Speaker, let me say that were it not for me he would only have 3,500 names,because he will find that my name is one of the names on that petition. I am very proud to say that that is the case because I support very much the prayer of this petition and the urgent need for a hospital. I take strong exception to what the member from St. John's East(Mr. Marshall) had to say last night on this particular subject.

I am pleased to hear the minister divorce himself of those comments completely by saying that he commends what VOCM has done. I commend what VOCY has done and it is the kind of community leadership we could do a lot more with in this Province. I am glad to see that one of the media took this initiative and they are to be commended, notwith­ standing what the member from St. John's East(Mr. Marshall) said last night. I am not one - I do not know why the minister was so apprehensive - I am not one who would want to take the hide off him on this particular matter. I believe he needs all our sympathies over here, Mr.

Speaker. He must be in the most awkward position of anybody in that administration at this particular time. My sympathies are with him,and I believe I speak for my colleagues. I do not want to take the hide off him. I want to 4316

1'arch 31, 1976. MR. SIMMONS : Tape 1605 RH - 3 sympathize, empathize, pity him ff necessary, because he has heen placed in a 1110st awkwa"X'd spot. He in good faith told his· electorate that this thing was all go. He has to go back and tell them otherwise. I say he needs the sympathy of all concerned. I cannot tell from his comments -and it is not important whether I can tell,but I hope his constitutents can tell - I cannot tell for sure whether he supported the petition because, Mr. Speaker, MR. BRETT: You could not have been listening. MR. SIMMONS: No, I listened very carefully, 1{r.

Speaker, and I listened to the explanations and I listened to what happened irt 1958. I would sug~est to you, Mr. Speaker, I would suggest to you that if we have the kinds of se"X"ious illnesses they have been exper:l.encing out there in some instances in the last few weeks 1 where people have not quite made it to St. John's in the ambulance, and the minister knm~ what I am talking about, then the relatives will not be too concerned what happened in 1958. They will not be too concerned about that. But what they will be concerned about is what is being done right now to meet the need. Mr.

Speaker~ I say I am not sure he supported the petition, because the petition is very pointed as I heard it. The petition says we deserve a hospital now, we need one now. The most I could hear from the ·minister is that he had rationalized in his own mind 4317

March 31, 1976 Tape no. 1606 Page 1 - mw Hr. Simmons. that a delay could be justified, And I would put it to him that I, as one of the petitioners, and I believe I speak for the other 3,500, do not buy that argument,that we cannot have any further delay on the hospital in Clarenville or the extension in Grand Falls, which particularly affects my own district, the Bay d'Espoir part of it.

We cannot have a delay insofar as the Burin hospital is concerned, and I find it a little disappointing today that the member for the district has not seen fit to more enthusiastically align himself with the prayer of the petition he was obliged to rise and support. If he had difficulty supporting it, Mr. Speaker, let him give it to one of us, and we will gladly get up and support prayer of the people who formulated and signed that particular petition. Now, Mr. Speaker, just one final comment.

I hope before this item passes, and we move on to another petition or some other item of business, I hope we will hear from the Minister of Health on this, and I would hope that his position is considerably different from that one set out by the member for the area. I would hope that the Minister of Health will be able to say that not only does he support the prayer of the petition but that he is looking for ways to get the thing back on track at the earliest possible opportunity. We support the petition, Mr. Speaker, and I take pleasure in being able to say that. MR. ROBERTS: Hear, hear! Well said. MR.

SPEAKER (Mr. Young): The hen. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr~ Speaker, I would like to rise in support of the petition in so much as that it affects several communities in my own district, communities without the services of a hospital. Bven though they have services of a doctor, they do not have the services of a hospital, and they indeed were looking forward to being provided with this most important service, and I feel compelled to support the minister and will support him in all his efforts in trying to get a hospital for that area, for the Clarenville area.

I sympathize with him, as my hon. colleague just mentioned, the situation that he must 4318

March 31, 1976 Tape no. 160b Page 2- mw Mr. Lush: be in at the moment having been in a situation of promising the people a hospital and having to renege on that idea. It is unfortunate. He alluded to the fact that they were promised two hospitals before. The situation is, of course, that two wrongs or even three wrongs do not make a right, and once we have raised the hopes, the aspirations and the expectations of people, I think we can all expect as to what will happen once these hopes and dreams and aspirations have been dashed.

It is unfortunate, but again I do sympathize with the minister and support the petition and say that he certainly has all of my support in any efforts to try and rectify the situation. Thank you, SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Hr. Young): The hen. member for Twillingate. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, I believe that a big new hospital at Clarenville is badly needed. I do not doubt that for a moment.

I am sure it is badly needed, and I am sure also that the big new hospital proposed for the Burin Peninsula is just as badly needed, and that an expansion to the great hospital that we built in Grand Falls is desperately needed now also. And indeed, Sir, as you look about our Province today, you can see so many needs, things that are needed and needed badly and needed,some of them,desperately. The needs are universal.

They are everywhere in spite of the fantastic things that have been done in these twenty-seven years ending tonight, in spite of that the fact remains that the needs of the Province are fantastic, 4319

March 31, 1976 Tape 1607 PK - 1 Mr. Smallwood: and I am very conscious of those needs, but no more conscious than I am at the moment of the fact that we have not got the money to do it.

Without building at Clarenville and Grand Falls and the Burin Peninsula,without building the desperately n~~d~d n~w library at th~ University, without building the residence for the Technical College, without doing this,that and the other thing desperately needed, obviously, admittedly, undeniably needed in Newfoundland, without doing any of that we still are being asked in this House to give the government authority to spend $1,250,000,000 , $1,250 million.

If it were not so tragic it would be sad, it would be humerous, it would be funny, it would be comical that we talking about $1.25 billions • So if my friends in Clarenville- and I have dear friends there, I always had dear friends in Clarenville, always did, I hope I always shall- if my dear friends and other friends and others who are not particularly my friends in and around Clarenville and the whole area to be served by a hospital in Clarenville, if they have to wait a year or two.- they say that misery loves company.-=- th~r~ would be so many people in Newfoundland,in so many parts of Newfoundland that have got to wait,whether they like it or not,because there just is not enough money to go around, that they are going to have to wait a year or two or maybe three, if that is the case, well it is too bad.

But we have got to be men, we have got to be man enough everyone of us to face the fact that Newfoundland cannot afford to build everything that is desperately needed. Oh we can go ahead and plunge and end bankrupt in a year or two or less than two years.

When the Premier goes there, if he goes next time to New York to raise another $50 million, and is told by the money lenders, "Well look, you know, we like you, we like the look of you, we like the sound of you, you seem to be a grand fellow, you are in the British tradition, you are a good solid Canadian, but really we do not think you are credit-worthy now for any more money." If he meets that kind of a reception, that is worse than not going ahead with those hospitals this year. Of course, we back the hospital. -'I am With the minister 4320

March 31, 1976 Tape 1607 PK - 2 Mr. Smallwood: in 'this. I think, he wants the hospital. He would have to be a little crfzy in the head as the member for that constituency if he did not want the hospital, if he is not bitterly disappointed that' it cannot go ahead this year. I am with him in both these, I want the hospital, and I am disappointed too that it cannot be done this year. I do not believe it can. I do not believe there is going to be the money for it. MR. SPEAKER (~ffi. YOUNG): The hon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. MR. ROUSSEAU: Mr. Speaker, if I may, just a few words on this.

I notice the hon. member from Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) suggested that there might be some question as to whether the hon. member from Trinity North (Mr. Brett) was indeed in support of the petition. I can say unequivocally as far as we are concerned on this side of the House, and to the han. members across the House, to the constituents in Trinity North,and to the people of this Province that there is no doubt that the hon. member from Trinity North supports fully the concept of a hospital, and I am sure that he is bitterly disappointed,as we all are,with things that we have lost during this year.

Unfortunately he is not able to get up and speak a second time on a petition,but I sat around when the decisions were made with him, and we sat around at other places and we talked, and I can assure this House and assure the members of the constituency of Trinity North and all other constituencies that the han. member from Trinity North put in as big a battle for that hospital as anybody, and I think they should feel proud of him. MR. SPEAKER (MR. YOUNG): The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. E. ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

In support of the petition let me begin by saying that I think this is the first time in my few years in the House that I have ever heard of a major petition such as this one - itis signed by, what? 3,500 people, of the citizens of the area to be served by the new hospital - it is the first time I have ever seen such a major petition presented that the minister of the department concerned has not responded. I would hope that the Minister of Health will say a few 4321

March 31, 197 6 Mr. ~oberts: words on it. Tape 1607 PK - 3 He has a habit of trying to hide behind the curtain of silence, and that may, he feels,serve hilll well, but, Mr. Speaker, I do not think it serves the Rouse well or the people well, and I submit that it does not s.erve his colleague the Minsiter of Social Services, the gentleman from Trinity North ver.y well . I hope the. Minister of Health would say a few words. We have already said we support the petition, and I do not need to say that again, But what I do ' want to say in supporting it, Mr.

Speaker, is that there is a ve·ry real issue of public morality raised by this petition. Now I do not know anything about the :two hospitals that we are prom:1sed to which the gentleman referred. They were not promised while I was Minister of Health. That is all I do know. I 4322

Narch 31, 1976 Tape 1608 MR. ROBERTS: do not know what was done when the gentleman from St. John's West (Mr. Crosbie) was Hinister of Health or the gentleman from Grand Bank (Mr. Hickman) was Minister of Health or the late Dr. James HcGrath was Hinister of Health. I do not know about that. IB-1 I know many hospitals were promised and I know that many were built.

I know that several were not built. 1fuat I do know - and this is the concern which people expressed with this petition - is not just that the promise was made and has not yet been kept - and I will be charitable and put it that way because I believe when the gentleman from Trinity North (}lr. Brett) made the commitment he believed it. I have no doubt at all on that point, Mr. Speaker. I do not think he made the commitment falsely or with any intent to deceive or any­ thing like that. He is not like that.

But how can we square his belief, Sir, and his knowledge,which we accept,with the fact that the government now are talking of cutting back 200 beds? You cannot have both, Mr. Speaker. Either we have sufficient hospital beds in this Province, in which case "'e do not need to build more,or we do not have sufficient, in which case we do need to build more. The Minister of Health should make this point very clear, Sir.

And I serve notice now that if ever we get to his estimates, if ever he has got the political courage to bring his estimates into this Committee, and when we sit in Commi~tee and defend them, that will be the central question, Sir. The government are cutting back hospital beds on one hand and on the other hand they are telling us they are going to build new hospitals. Sir, there can be nothing more inconsistent than that. In supporting this petition, Jlr. Speaker, I hope the people in the area get the hospital because they need it.

It is one of the areas Hhere the need is greatest for improved acute care hospital facilities. Clarenville is a central town. It is only, what, an hour and a half, t~1o hours from Bonavista tmm on one side and a couple of hours from Harystown on the other. It should have priority even over 4323

Harch 31, 1976 Tape 1608 MR. ROBERTS: those two hospitals. It is obvious that if the hospital is to be built, Clarenville has a very great need comparable with the Happy Valley-Goose Bay area, comparable with one or two of the medical stations 1 they call them the public health centers,that should be built throughout this Province. IB-2 We very much hope its goes ahead. I can understand why the government have brought in a period of restraint, and we have not been heard to say that the government should ignore the a~vise and warnings of the financial community. Hhat I do say, Mr.

Speaker, and what I say again, is that there is an inconsistency which must be cleared up and only the Minister of Health can clear it up. If it is not cleared up, Sir, if he cannot explain why the government on one hand promise new hospitals~and on the other hand proceed , to close six out of every 100 beds that we now have, a total of 200 acute care beds to be closed, then, Sir, the Hinister of Health stands convicted of a serious, serious dereliction of duty, Sir, and that should not be tolerated. So I would hope, }lr.

Speaker, the minister will now rise and in supporting this petition, as I believe he would, that he will clear up this unfortunate situation and that he will set the record straight. They cannot have it both ways, Nr. Speaker . _MJl.. NEARY : Hear, hear! SOME RON. ME~ffiERS : Hear, hear! MR . SPEAKER (Mr. Young): Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees. I am sorry do you want to speak on that petition. The member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Another petition, Mr. Speaker. This is a third or fourth petition, Mr. Speaker, from my district on the same matter of upgrading and improving roads.

I might say even though it is the third or the fourth petition, even counting the petition which I shall now present today, that I am talking about less than twenty-five miles of road ·really. This petition, Mr. Speaker, which I present on behalf of 191 4324

March 31, 1976 Taep 1608 IB-3 ~:R . LUSH: residents of Canning 's Cove, the prayer of this petition is that the government repair, upgrade and pave t.he road from. Musgrave town to Canning 's Cove . I 1dli read t he petition a little later because I think that there are things in it that need to be sa:ld. The people in my district, }!r.

Speaker , have been in the habit of having petitions presented to government , I t.hink, for a num.ber of years, and t he hen. l'inister of Transpo rtatio n who represented in the old district of Bonavista South many of the communities in my district pre.sented several of these same pet it ions. Certainly the one I am presenting today, I think, he presented in this ilouse , a sim:llar petition, a year or so ago. These people are a very perse rverin g people, a very patient people.

They have been watching pavement laid down around them, all around them for years and years and hoping that one day that they too will get pavement, that they ~,ill get t.heir roads paved. As I present this 4325

March 31, 1976 Tape 1609 PK - 1 Mr. Lush: present this petition today, Mr. Speaker, as there is a very volatile situation right n~ r in Canning's Cove, The people 'there have picketed the road there. They started yesterday morning and went on through until last night and still have their pickets there today protesting the deplorable conditions of .the road.

But more than protesting the conditions of the road,because I think it is only normal to except that road to be bad at this time of year even though this year I think they have been a little worse than in other years because of years of neglect and because of the kind of weather that we had this particular Winter, more than protesting the condition of the road I think they are protesting in an effort to get some sort of decision from government as to when they can expect something done to the roads,whether they can expect something done this Summer or in the Fall or next year.

It seems as though they never know what will happen. So I think the protest is more of a nature of trying to get some sort of a decision from government. But, Mr. Speaker, the roads are in a terrible condition . I would like to read what the petition says. .. It says,

Whereas the two and one-quarter mileo;stretch of road from Musgravetown to Canning's Cove is very winding and hilly; "And

whereas this

section of road has been condemned as to dangerous for the use of school buses; ''And

whereas this road is still used to transport. pupils from Canning's Cove to the aigh school in Musgravetown, because they are offered a higher standard of education there; 11 And

whereas this road is used by all people who travel to and from Canning's Cove, and who take lumber and fish from the community; ''And

whereas Canning's Cove is still a growing community as proven by the number of new housing starts in recent years; "And

whereas young people should not be dilscouraged from building their homes in a rural community because of poor roads; 4326

Harch 31, 1976 Tape 1609 PK - 2 Mr. Lush: "And

whereas there is an alternate route that could be used to give the community a good and safe road 1 the voters of Canning's Cove do humbly pray that our hon. Premier and his government will take the necessary action to provide Canning's Cove with a new, standard,paved road that will link it with the paved road in Musgravetown. 11 Mr. Speaker, I support the petition, and in view of the remarks that I made earlier that the present Minister of Transportation when he was a member, a backbencher, that he presented a similar petition.

I do call upon him today to support this petition, and the people of that area are counting on the minister to show or to demonstrate his sincerity by supporting this petition. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): Are there any further petitions? ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon. Leader of the Opposition. HON. E. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Transportation and Communications, one of a number which I have to ask him during the day. But let me begin, Mr.

Speaker, by asking him with reference to conditions in the Quirpon area of mv constituency, the area North of the communities of St. Lunaire and Griquet, where the minister, I think, knows there have been substantial numbers of people picketing on the roads, picketing over the condition of the roads. Could the minister tell us, Mr. Speaker, where the matter now stands, could he tell us what steps have been taken to correct the situation?

Included in that status report could he tell the House, please, Sir, about the tractor in Quirpon,which is 50 per cent of the equipment available to look after the roads in the area,which has been broken down since Friday past and as of half an hour ago was still broken down in Quirpon, although the minister told me yesterday, I have no doubt that he had been so 4327

~1 uc h 31 , 1 976 Tape 1609 PK- 3 Mr.· Roberts: informed, the tractor was back in operation. Could he bring us up to .date on it, Mr. SpeakeT, and then we will see where we go from there. It is a very serious situation. It is very aggravating to the people who live in those communities. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS) : The bon. Minister of Transportation arid Communications. RON. J. MORGAN: Mr. Speil.ker, I am aware of the situation as of yesteTday morning. The situation was then,and it was yesterday afternoon 1 that the tractor we used in grad.ing the roadssin that area was not in working condition.

The mechani~s in the area were attempting to .get the machine working. However, I understand that if the problem still exists with ~egards to mechanical--difficulty . on the tractor itself • we would arrange to have a new machine move into the area or a machine from some other part of the_ d,istri~t, a machine from the ~or them Peninsula be moved to the area today. 4328

}iarch 31, 19 76 Tape 1610 Ill-1 ''1'. SJ'E:'IKET': The hon. I,e;~c1er of the C'pposiUon. ''r. Spe<'.ker, a supplementary on that. I am grateful for the info!T'ation. rould the minister jnc]j cate to the llonse what further steps can he taken? It is fOOd tn kn01"' a machine can be 1'\0vec' jn to replace a machine th.nt has been out of opera tj em f. or five or six r1ays. llhat I ar1 seeking is an assurnnce,if. he wjlJ give it to !:le, C'ir, th<l t enc-ugh equipment •.dll be mnvec' into the area to open the roads. The children have been out of school for a week.

Public feeling, not unexpecterlly, runs high anc1 there is very cleep concern and a very ceep and real feelin~ that the nepart~ent are not cloinn their job. I do not say I shl'lre that feeling. I woulcl like to hear what the l'li.nlster has tn f'ay nne' I ask him if he ,.rnuld give us a co1'1mitment that ••hatever !1'e<~sures are necessary '~ithin the means at his disposal - there j s I' suhst<~ntial al1'ount of equipment in the area - ,,,hatever measures are necessary will be taken to get that road openetl. It is under six to eight inches of water now because - I kno~o.r T am out of order, ''r.

Speaker, but if I could be permitted, We hac1 a heavy snowfall and then a that· : and then a frost and now another thaw anr:1 the result is the ,,rater has not draine<'! off the road. r,n1at is neede<l are machines to go in and clitch the road and allow the water to drain off ;;md then what is left of the roadbetl Hill be there and trucks and buses ann cars can go back and forth. Coulc'l the minister give me that assurance please, ~i.r? ~'1' . SPEAKEr : ''T'. ~·or>GN-J: The hon. ''inj ster of Transportation and Cormrunications. l'r.

Spea!<er., I give the assurance to the hon . gentleman the f'ar.e as I have given to the people today, for example, 5n Canning's rove, the people in r·'arkl;;ond, the people in Bonavista South district, in the ~late r.ove area, the people out in St.

Vincent's, to Trepassey, in a.l J sections of the Province "'here we have a situation where the frost j s no'•' coming f>ut of the ground and "'e are having a really <'Hficult time in keeping the roac'ls in a c'!ecent condition. ! can give the assurance to the hon. gentleman~the sawe assurance as I have given the other places around the Province that the Depart11'ent of Transportation and CoJ'Ill'mn ications r'aintenance !livision is clo:!n!l everything possible to 4329

!"arch 31, 1976 Tape 1610 IB-2 HP • }!ORGAN : keep these roads serviceable and passable. SOME RON • 1-!EHBERS: Hear, hear! YR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Conception Bay South. l'!R. NOLAN: Nr. Speaker, a question for the }Unister of Transportation and Communications. Yesterday I brought to his attention the problem with the road in St . Phillips. Actually I adjoin districts with the hon. member for Haunt Scio (l''r. R. Hinsor), there is split jurisdiction there in sone ways. We have a situation on a road there - I know that a number of people called the ~inister and I might say, if I may, l'r.

Speaker, that they received great consideration from the minister from the reports that I have received. I brought the matter to his attention and what happened was, as he has pointed out, we have a road where it just was not possible for people to get there in their cars. They were down in the mud using four4vheel drives trying to get them out. I know what a problem it is this time of the year. I am wondering if he would be good enough, :l.f he could, to give us a report on that situation as of this moment if he has it available. NR. SPEAKER: The hon.

Hinister of Transportation and Communications. l"R. }fORGAN: Hr. Speaker, I assume the bon. gentleman is referrinp. to the nogberry Hill Road. _l'R. NOLA.."'!: Yes. ~~ . MOP.r.AN : I did receive inquiries yesterday afternoon and yesterday evening from residents on that road and from the han. gentleman. Again we are doing everything possible to keep the road passable and today we are trucking gravel and material on the road, and by this afternoon~ or by the time the work shift ends today the road should be passable. ~!R. SPEAKEP: 'f'R. NQLAN: 1-'r.. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Conception Bay South.

A supplementary? I would just like to thank the hon. minister. The hon. member for Eagle River. MF .• STFACHAN: A question for the Minister of l"ines and Energy. Could he tell us the situation concerning the requeste~ funding for the Labrador l?esources Advisory Counsel? }IR . SPEAKEP.: The hon. }finister of Mines and Energy. 4330

!>'arch 31, 1976 Tape 1610 1,-3 "R. ("P.OSBIR: 'rhi.!l ~tter :Is curre n tly before the cabinet. As soon as a decision is made I 11ill c-ake a ministerial statement, that is, H it is favourable, and try to keep it all ~uiet i.f it is not . The hon . mer:!ber for Bur feo-Bay 1' 'Espo5 .r . !'T' . SI~'l-'~S: ~·r. Speake r, on the sal'le subject and first of all a nuestion to the l'inister of 11ines and Ener ~y . I "oul<' woulrl the minister be in a position t~ in<'icate to the House what t he gove~ent ' s pJans are now for the Labrador Resources nevelopment Corporation?

The minister will r ecaJl that there w~s a token amount in the bu~fet last year . J am wondering if the govern~nt will be takinr some injt:latives to ?,et this corporation off the r.ro tmcl in the net'" fiscal year? "!' . SP!W<EP.: The hon . Hiniste r of Industrial and Rur al Development. !All_. Lr.NDPICIIN: 'r. Spealter, at some point in the near futu re we shoul~ be able to make some kind of a state~ent, a positive statement . t am not snrc it will necessarily satisfy the exact l e tter of the lat-~ as far as the corporation is concerned .

There mir,ht be some modifications, chanr.es_, hut there tdll he some r esponf!e nnd 1 t-IOuld 511)1 of a favour able nature . 4331

March 31, 1976 Tape no. 1611 Page 1 - mw MR. SPEAKER (Dr. Collins): The hon. member for Carbonear. MR. R. MOORES: Mr. Speaker, a question for the hon. Minister of Health. In relation to the question asked last week about the proposed opening of the Carbonear General Hospital,does the minister have a more definitive answer this week? MR. SPEAKER (Dr, Collins): The hon. Minister of Health. MR. COLLINS: I can say that the new Carbonear Hospital will be opening, and I hope it will be accomplished in a matter of days, certainly weeks.

Meetings are now taking place between the officials downstairs and the administrator and the board in Carbonear. So within a few days that should be a reality. MR. SPEAKER (Hr. Collins): The hon. member for Fortune -Hermitage. MR. l. WINSOR: A question to the hon. Miaister of Justice. In view of the fact that the citizens of Hermitage, Seal Cove, Sandyville, Gaultois are inconvenienced by having to travel approximately eighty miles to attend court, would the minister tell us if he has plans to have court held at Hermitage in future? MR. SPEAKER (Dr. Collins): The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. RICKMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I received representation quite recently from the town council of Hermitage asking if accommodation could be - assuining accommodation is available - il the magisirate who normally looks after Harbour Breton, and who is responsible for the Harbour Breton magisterial district, could hold court whenever there are sufficient cases pending. I have asked the magistrate responsible, Magistrate Stone, to let me have a report. It was a dual request.

And also the second part of the request from the town council was that I enquire as to whether there could be an increase in the number of patrols from the Harbour Breton detachment of the RCMP, and I am now awaiting reports from both, and as soan as I do the Hermitage Town Council will be advised and the han. gentleman. I do not think sufficient time has elapsed for me to get the reports in yet. 4332

March 31, 1976 Tape no. 1611 Page 2 - mw MR. SPEAKER (Dr. Collins): The hon. member for Burgeo- Bay d 1 Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Ministe~ of Tourism. He may not be able to give this information off the top of his head but I wonder would he undertake to indicate - as a word of warning I am back to his pet project called Cabot Group 4 again - I wonder would he undertake to get the following information.

I would like to know the total amount of money that was dispersed by government, by his department I ought to say, on behalf of his department, to Cabot Group 4 for each of the last three fiscal years, 1973-1974, 197{1-1975 and 1975-1976? I am just looking for a total for each of those years on behalf of his department. NR. SPEiu~R (Dr. Collins): The han. Minister of Tourism. MR. lliCKF:Y: Xr. Speaker, I obviously aannot tell the hon. member. But certainly when my estimates are going through, this information will be available.

I will attempt to get it in the meantime, but certainly one way or the other the hon. gentleman is quite welcome to the information. MR. SPEAI(ER (Dr. Collins): The hon. member for Conception Bay South. MR. NOLAN: Mr. Speaker, a question for the hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing, and it is to ask .the minister if he is in a position as this time to give the Rouse a report on recent discussions or negotiations that I believe he held in the last few days concerning the possibility of a home warranty programme for this Province and perhaps for the Altantic area?

And is he in a position now to bring us up-todate on this situation? Mi. SPEAKER (Dr. Collins): The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Rousing. MR. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, yes, I am in a position to perhaps be somewhat more definitive than recent reports might indicate. There was a meeting held in Fredericton in the last couple of days between the Ministers of Housing , responsible for housing for the Altantic Provinc~s, 4333

March 31, 1976 Tape no. 1611 Page 3- mw Mr. Peckford. and there were representatives from all the provincl;!s, both as ministers and both from the industry. The industry presented us with a proposal of an industry sponsored. home warranty scheme, home warranty and insurance scheme for the Atlantic region, which they would sponsor with '!10 cost from government. Now we have given our approval in principle to the general guidelines as outlinea in their p:!!oposal, and we have told them that in seven days we shall give them formal written approval of the general proposal brought forward.

We asked them that within forty-five d~ys or less they pre~ent to us a more detailed proposal outlining, fo1; example, not the principles o£ the plan or the scheme, but rather outlining for us the •ttucture of the organization, administrative organization, that would look after this prognmme. Where the regional office W'ould be? Would there be provincial offices? The bu~get for 4334

~rarch 31, 1976 Tape 1612 IB-1 ~'11 • PECKJ'fl)'f' : the operation 0f this ~cheme so we could see all the ~ollars and cents that ,,,ere involvecl, and that :Is they v'ere wiJl:lng to (lo that in forty­ f:!ve days or Jess,••e ~muJ,d as ministers of Atlantic Canada responsible for housing responcl to theM in forty-five days or less with our approval to begin the plan. It is hoped by all the ministers and by the industry that this can be done, perhaps both the tvro forty-five day periods can he done perhaps in one forty-five nay periorl so that we can be in a position in the Summer to announce the plan.

It is also hoped that formal agreewent to the whole scheme can be given here in St. John's as the final meeting of the incustry ancl of the ministers. So I anticipate thnt we shall have a home warranty and insurance scheme, baserl on the Alberta experiment of a year old now 0 :1n place by the Fall. I shoul~ also like to say, }'r. Speaker, that the co-operation of the howe huilrlinr, inrlustry :In this Province has been ahsolutely fantastic. Yr. Harold Pyan the president of the St. John's Home lluHders Association, and ~·r. Ralph ¥arch accompanied me to Fredericton.

They are very much :In the forefront of the home builcUnp :Industry in the Atlantic Provinces ancl Canada,and they are on the home building steering coll1JIIittee for the AtJantic Provinces right nn'~ who are going to put tov.ether the final package. _50~'E HON. !~J'Jl'El'S: Hear, hear! ''r.. RPEAKER: ~he hon. member for Conception Bay South. }~. NOLAN: "'r. ~peaker, I do not want to attel'lpt to go :Into too Much netail on this because I kno•' it is a bit tr:!.cky. If the minister is in a pos:!t:!<'n to an!'wer, I woulrl appreciate it.

J co'11'pliment him, hy the way, 0n the information he has g:!.ven thus far, and his effort in this reg"-rcl. C1ne of the problems in a horne warrantly '"onlCI be if you h;we for example a problem, one of the people who •10rked on the hm:.;e ••ill col!1e and say," Look that is the plmnher, or th<>t is the electr1 d:m,or that i.s the people vho put in the foundat:fon nr whatever~· l:s there a uay, does the l"linister envisage a way to tie all this together? I knm·' how tricky it is. 4335

'-';~rc:h 31, 197fi Tape Hil2 T.ll-2 !'om ~T'EJ\Kr.r: Tl1e hen. 1'f'jn:f. st~-r nf }funictpal Affairs and Ilousjng. >IT' 1'l'rXFOT'l'· : Yes,1ve clo envisage a '' ay th<Jt all parts of the structure and of the hou£e ._,·Ul be covered under that scheme. Yost of this other worl< that is usually done on houses an~my is subcontractec1, so therefC1re the main contractor is still responsible. So v-·e hope to be covered on that one parUcu]arly, that all aspects of the house - in Alberta :lt has not been n problem.

They have been able to :iron out those stick y details, ,,•here one could pass i t off on the other ancl still nobody uein g responsible. It should acld to the overall der;ree o<= standards of hous:lnf' in the Province because t;-hat ,,dll happen, huilc'ers are going to have to bP registered under t :-te plan and government an<' many other ar:encies are roinf, to be say i ng; l'nless you are registered under this plan ,,,e c1o not ••ant to have an~•thinr, to do Hith you:' !fl'. 'lOLA..'<: You Fill not p;:lve them mortgae;e money? ''P • PECKFOl'Jl : That is exact]y the point.

In Alberta they used lt on a voluntary basis,and the plan took off to such an extent that they cid not have to hring in any ~andatory controls. The marketplace itself governed H to such an extent that nobody could get l"ortgage Tl'.oney unless tl1ey "ere goinr, to have a builder >'ho was registered under the p] an. C:oocl. Y" !'OT'GNl : Hear, hE>ar! ~1'. SPEAKER: The hon. !'1ember for Windsor-Buchans. ~'R. FLIGIIT: ~·r. Speaker, this cuestion is for either the l'inister of Provinci.Rl Affairs and Environment or the l'inister of Transportation and Communicationl'l.

I an not s~tre which minister to arldress the questiC'n to,hecause t'ley cannot seem to agree as to which one of them has the responsibi.lity for administering this particular aspect of the publ1.c accounts. !lut the question, Sir, is ho~• much of the $250,000 has been disbursed, the $250,000 that was collected one do1lar per shot on the license plates last year, how much of that $250,000 has heen disbursed to A}!}!, ~!arine Yetals? For what purpose have the disbursements been made? At what point of their contract have the AMH, the Affiliated Harine ~!etals - just for '"hat reason 433ti

?-larch 31, 1976 Tape 1612 t"-1. FLI(;HT: have any d1sbursements of that $250,000 been made to that c~pany to this point? Either one of ~he ministers. SO}~ RON. }1l!'JBERS : Oh , oh! }'~)!.. SPEAKEF: The hon .• member for llellevue. IB-3 ~'l'. CALLAN: Yr. Speaker, in the absence of the Minister of Tourism, perhaps one ~f th;e other mjnisters could answer this 1f the ~'inister of To11rism is not back in time. :ll'y question _is, will ft be necessary for hunters in this Province t:o successful complete a h,unter safety course to qualify for a. small or large game .license for _the au.tumn of this year? 4337

&n:h 31, 1976 Tape 1613 PK - 1 MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, there are voluntary efforts already underway through some staff of my department to have people take a hunter safety training course. Certainly is not required by law or regulation at the moment. The matter is under consideration in terms of whether or not that is necessary. I might say there is a great feeling among a great number of people that this should be the case and it is a mAtter that is under consideration at the present time, but no definite decision bas been made. MR. SPEAICER: The bon. member for Windsor Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr.

Speaker, this is in a sense a supplementary to my first question, and this question is directed to the Premier. Would the Premier advise the House as to which one of the minister, the Minister of Provincial Affairs and the Enviroument or the Minister of Transp,ortation and CC~aUDications 1 is indeed responsible for the administration of that fund? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, only too gladly.

I am in the process right now of - I understood that envir011111entally one department was responsible; and as far as the collection of the autOPObilea · and 'delivery,the Department of Transportation and eom.unication. But after reading today' s Telegram , as I am sure the hon. 111ember did, I will have 1110re detail for him t01110rrow. MR. SPEAKER: (Mr. Collins): The bon. ~~ember for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Spea¥~r, I want to direct a question to the bon. Premier. Will the bon.

Premier tell the House,or could he give some indication to the House,of when the three by-elections will be held in Ferryland, Exploits and Donavista North? And if the taree elections will be held at the &Bille tilDe or will they be held separately? ·And while the Pre111ier is on his feet would he indicate to the House whether or not legal action will be taken against those people who deliberately violated the Elections Act in September? MR. SPEAKER· (DR. COLLINS): The hon. Premier, PREMIER MOORES: There are a lot of qu•stions there in the one, Mr Speaker.

I think the answers are, yea, IIIBybe, probably and unlikely. 4338

March 31, 1976 Tape 1613 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I have a further question for the hon. Premier. Would the Premier tell the House if Newfoundland is going to join with Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island in approaching the Government of Canada to ask to have electricity subsidized in this Province as well as in Nova Scotia and P.E.I. I think they are talking about a subsidy on oil? PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, as the hon. member well knows all PK-2 the Eastern Provinces at the present time are receiving what he refers to as a subsidy from the Federal Government.

It is an equalization of bil prices because of the subsidy paid to-or the prices that have to be subsidized from the wellhead in Alberta. The situation is that P.E.I. and Nova Scotia have the first and second highest petroleum and energy costs in Canada, Newfoundland is third. We have already stated our position to these provinces and to the Federal Government and we will continue to do so, that if there is any plan for equalized prices and subsidies for the provinces that need that sort of assistance, we certainly require the same as anybody else. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR.

ROBERTS: Thank you. I have a question for the Minister of Transportation and Communications. Could the minister indicate please what work his department intends to do this year on the road between L 'Ar.se-au-Clair and Red Bay in Labrador South? MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hen. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, all the work to be carried out in the capital account of my department will be outlined when the estimates are debated in the House. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. MR. ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, a question to the Minister of Transportation and Co1111!1unications, This comes as a result of a number of representations I have had with respect to layoffs in the minister's department. Could the minister indicate why, for example, a man of twelve years experiece with the Depa~ment of Highways or Transportation and Communications who,say,is a heavy equipment operator is laid off,and individuals who 4339

~1arch 31, 1976 Tape 1613 PK - 3 Mr. Rowe: ,Have been with t,he department, for a lllUch shorter period of til!le these individuals are kept on? MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS) The hon. Minister of Transportatiotl. and Communications .• MR. MO~: Mr. Speaker, lilY department is now in the process of laying off the Winter l!lilintenance crew.

We have had three shifts of men in J!lost parts of the Province, and llOW with the Spring upon '\lS and the SUlllll1er approaching we are laying off men, we are giving them notice under a:Jid strictly in accordance with the union agreement whereby we have to give tht:tty days notice to seasonal and t .emporary employees, and ten days of notice to o·thers. We are now 4340

!larch 31, 1Cl7f'. nr... HOR!;Ml: RH - 1 giving notice of layoff which would become effective April 27. The layoffs are strictly in accordance with, and I repeat, strictly in accordance with the union agreement. Tn some cases although a man '"ith twelve years seniority total with Rovernment, he may not have the seniority in the position as equipment operator and therefore he gets laid off and according to union agreement. 1m. 1'. ROlfE: So he can wor k his way up and still get laid off. }ffi.. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. ' fR. NEAll.Y: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the }finister of 'lanpm~er, Sir, if he would give us an updatinp, on the strike in Churchill Falls? Has the minister yet decided to appoint an industrial inquiry into th11t dispute? ~To, :-lr . Sreaker, I have not decic'led to appoint an industrial inquir y up to this point in time. As I said a fe"r days ago, T '' ave kept my options open. It is my right under the Lahour Relations .~ct. If and when an industrial inquiry is decided upon I w:IJ 1 make the anpropr:l .ate announcement to tl-)e House. ~IlL ,T. JTOD!JER: ><r. Spea ker, a nuestion to the !1inister of Education .

Tn light of the fact that durinp.; Newfoundland's twenty-fifth anniversary cPJebrations the hon. the Premier has said that the high school drama festiva] started that year would continue,and in light of thP fact that it is not goinp.; al1ead th:l .s year, coulc'l the minister telJ us if there is any chance that the festival will resume in the f uture or is it: now a dead issue? PR FI'1FR H()(}l(f S : Hr. Speaker, if I may I would like to ans1ver that question. The hip,h school drama festival is one of the desirable programmes of any of :l.ts sort in the Province.

I woulrl sugl?;est the appropria .te time to get tloe full detail on that position will be cluring the estimates. r .A.PT. J'. HINSOR: Mr. Speaker, I direct this question to the hon. the Premier. ForRive roe, Sir, I mav have to use a l ittle

preamble. It is a noter1 fact t h at his 'li nister of Rural Development has been l?;Oing hither ann thither looking for contracts for the Harvstmm shipyard. In the .1 i.ght of what the hon. l'inister of Fisheries said today in a rress release or on the radio, after the ~no mile limit is enforced then the government, 4341

!!arch 31, 1'176. CAPT. WINSOR: RH - 2 as I understood it, would be buying $hips, surplus trawlers from the U.K. Nmo~ is this or is it not a policy of government to buy those ships rather than get them constructed at ~larystmm? l'RF"'IIF.R MOORES: Mr. Speaker, the hypothesis that these hon. F;entlemen took is absolutely inaccurate. I am confident that the ~inister of Fisheries did not say this. \That I think. he prohabl y might have said was that with these European fleets some, I think it is, 1,200 ships that are going to be available. We can build at Marystown I think it is four or five per year. I am not sure.

I think that is the maximum,if I remember correctly, four I think it is. If we are going to take full advantage of the 201') mile limit, and I do not think enough pre-planning has gone into this, particularly at the federal level because they seem to be preoccupied with bilateral agreements and trying to get the 200 mile limit as they should, but there are other departments in the Federal C~vernment that now together with the Provincial Governments should start taking a commercial look at it, meetings Hith the union employers ancl. the governments to see if we cannot get a cnmmPrcial posture es:ablished.

I am quite sure that the Minister of Fisheries did not suggest that we buy ships from any one given point. I think, Si.r, 1~hat 'le is su~gesting is that we will have it as a total p<~ck<tge from F.astern Canada when the time comes, hut certainly there 1.muld not have been a specific allegation of that sort. CAPT. WINSOR: 'fr. Speaker, a sup;:>lementary. tn the li!l;ht of what the rremier has said is it not now time to get specifications and plans ready for the number that the shipyard can construct at }\arystown rather than ~mit until we get the ?.00 mile lim::.t? I' P. ~ IER t100RF.S : ~!r.

Speaker, that has already been done. The whole gambit of exactly what is going to be required and how fast we can do it 1~ill be the subject I hope of a fairly lengthy debate in this House within the next few weeks. At that time certainly we will spill out what has r,one before. 4342

March 31, 1976 Tape no. 1615 Page 1 - mw }fR. SMALLWOOD: A supplementary question on that, When the Premier speaks of the numbers of ships, fish catching ships that could become needed in the future based presumably on the institution of the 200 mile control zone, is he thinking only of the draggers and the fish catching vessels that are now in this Province or can be built in this Province? And is he deliberately leaving out the rest of the Canadian Atlantic fishing fleet that exists now and is likely to exist to meet the demand if, as and when the 200 mile limit is established? MR. SPEAKER (Dr.

Collins): The han. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: No, Mr.Speaker. I said provinces, ~astern canadian ~rovinces, when I made the comment. One of the things I should mention to probably clarify the scope and the volume of what we are talking about - when I say, we, I mean the Canadian situation- is that - and it was mentioned in the budget, the figure - there are same two million tons of deep-sea fish presently being caught, less than 400,000 by Canada and less than 200,000 by Newfoundland. So in Newfoundland and Labradpr's case we caught one-tenth of what is presently being caught offshore.

Now irrespective of how much we would like to stop all fishing~from a straight protein food demand point of view in the world, and from a conservation point of view, there is no way that you are going to get Canadian or any other agreement that all fishing should stop. So the thing is how do we maximize that fishing that will be allowed to our Province'