LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Friday, 1 May, 1987. Time - 10:00 a.m. OPENING PRAYER by Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER, Hon. M. Phillips: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions ... Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees . . . MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Cooperative Development. tON. J. COWAN: Yes, Madam Speaker , I'd like to table .he Annual Report for 1985 and 1986 for the Cooperative Loan and Loans Guarantee Board and the Cooperative Promotion Board. MADAM SPEAKER: Notices of Mot ion . .. Introd uction of Bills . .

INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MADAM SPEAKER: Before moving to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery where we have 46 visitors from Cottage Grove, Minnesota, in the United States of America. rhese visitors are under the direction of Mrs. Halmrast. We have 44 students from Grade 5 from the Chapman School. These students are under the direction of Mr. Robert Weber. The schoo l is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Tuxedo. On behalf of all the members, I welcome you to the Legislature this morni ng.

ORAL QUESTIONS City of Winnipeg water supply - Shoal Lake Indian Band negotiations MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition . MR. G. FILMON: Thank you , Madam Speaker . My question is for the Minister of Urban Affairs. I wond er if he could indicate what the province's position is with respect to the proposed buy-out of development rights of the Shoal Lake Indian Band for a period of 60 years at a cost estimat ed by their representative, Mr. Jean Ch ret ien, as being $72 million. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Urban Affairs. HON. G.

DOER: Madam Speaker , the proposed agreement that the member opposite is talking about was only words in his speech yesterday. Madam Speaker, we have always said that the quality of water in Winnipeg is a very, very important priority for this government. However, Madam Speaker, we're still very, very distressed that the Federal Government withdrew from negotiations last year. They still have not entered back into the negotiations , and we still don't know what their position is at all. City of Winnipeg water supply - Shoal Lake Indian Band, prov. role in negotiations MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, I wonder whether or not the Minister could indicate what role he is playing in these negotiations. HON. G. DOER: Madam Speaker, there are offic ials from the province, officials from the city, dealing with the various concepts to reach an agreement on the Shoal Lake situation, but I must point out that we have always said that water quality is very, very important. If one is to look at the Estimates last year, we again discussed that as a very important priority for us.

We've tried to act as an honest broker to make sure that the parties stay together to get a healthy resolution to this situation , Madam Speaker, but we're not going to allow the Federal Government to withdraw from negotiations last fall and create wind and rabbit tracks as part of their contribution to this settlement of Shoal Lake.

We think it's very, very important that there be a three-level agreement on the Shoal Lake situation, and that the solution to the problem not only is acceptable potentially to the band, but also the other band that's not covered under this agreement, and all other environmental considerations in terms of the water quality for the citizens of Winnipeg. MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, given that the lawyer for the Shoal Lake Indian Band, Jean Chretien, the former Liberal Cabinet Minister , has indicated that he is prepared to initiate development on the reserve land that would have the effect of polluting the City of Winnipeg's water supply, unless the taxpayers of Winnipeg and Manitoba come up with $72 million, what steps is this Minister prepared to take to protect the city's water supply against that threat? HON. G. DOER: Madam Speaker , as the member opposite knows, the Federal Government ha s jurisdiction (

a) of the waters across the two boundaries; and (

b) has jurisdiction of the band situation directly in the Shoal Lake situation . So we would hope that the Federal Government just doesn't pack their bags and head back to Ottawa as they did last fall, and leave the citizens of Winnipeg with this very, very major problem of our water supply. Secondly , Madam Speaker, in reading Mr. Chre tien's speech yesterday to the Canadian Water Resources Association , I found the last one-third of that speech to border on blackmail. I do not believe that's the 1546 H t

Friday, 1 May, 1987 appropriate way for the citizens of Winnipeg to get an intelligent solution, not only to the legitimate desires of the Indian band at Shoal Lake, but also the legitimate needs of Winnipeggers to have a safe quality of water in the City of Winnipeg, and the other band, that's also not covered under any proposal that we are aware of. So we want to cover all sides of the waterfront, not jus t one side.

But the speech, Madam Speaker , from the former Liber al Cabinet Minister borders on blackmail, and the days of slush funds the former Liberal Government had are over for all governments , and I think it's important to keep that in mind. City of Winnipeg - protection of quality of water MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, my next question is to the Minister responsible for the Environment.

As Min ist er of the Environment, what is he prepar ed to do, what steps is he prepared to take to ensure tha t the City of Winnipeg's water suppl y is protected against the threa t of pollution from Jean Chretien and from the Shoal Lake Indian Band? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of the Environment. HON. G. LECUYER: Thank you , Madam Speaker. My department and staff of my department, Madam Speaker, were sitting at this negotiating table until this draft, or supposedly draft, agreement was drafted, at which time we were not at the table and we are looking at this draft agreement.

We will certainly want to sit down at the table with the federa l counterpart and, in the meantime, Madam Speaker , we continue to play the role we've said we would play all along on this issue . We said we were concerned with the quality of water supply for the City of Winnipeg and we continue to monitor that situation. There is, I might add , Madam Speaker, an agreement that exists with the Province of Ontario so that staff between the Departments of Environment for Manitoba and Ontario do meet when developments occur which affect the water of that basin .

These meetings generally occur once a year, the latest having occurred last November . MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, given that the cottage development could not likely proceed without the construction of a road which would have to go across Manitoba Crown land, to the Acting Prem ier, is he prepared to ensure that road is not approved in order to ensure that Winnipeg's water supply is not threatened by this action that is being suggested by Jean Chretien and the Shoal Lake Indian Band? HON. G. LECUYER: Madam Speaker, there are a number of issues involving the Shoal Lake Band.

The one that the Leader of the Opposition just mentioned is one of them, but those are separate issues, Madam Speaker. We're talking about the quality of water, and there is no road for the band under consideration. Tourism - decline in foreign tourists MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Membe r fo r Portage la Pra irie. MR. E. CONNERY: Thank you, Madam Spe ake r. My question is to the Minister of Tourism .

Madam Speaker , the Provinc e of Manitoba was the only one to show a decline in foreign tourists for 1986, and is the only provi nce to show a decline fo r the first two months of 1987, a decline of foreign tourists for 11 consecutive months. What program or crisis plan has the Minister in place to protect the jobs of some 30,000 people in the tourist industry? MADAM SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Tourism. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Than k you , Madam Speaker.

I appreciate the concerns raised by the Member for Portage la Prairie but , when he's talking about the tourism industry I wish that , onc e in awhile , he would quote the 22 percent increase we have in the domestic market , which is by far our biggest market and brings in $400 million a year to the Province of Manitoba . So while we are concerned about the decline in the U.S. overnight market, Madam Speaker, I want tc remind the member opposite that it is the smallest market that we have , one of the smallest markets , and brings in the smallest amount of money.

However, we are taking steps to address that, and one of the ste ps is in our cooperative advertising program which we are undertaking in terms of cooperat ion with the tourist industry . But , Madam Speaker , this gives me an opportunity to mention to my colleagues in the House that Manitoba is hosting a marvelous conference called, "Rendez ­ vous Canada and Meeting Planners Internationa l," tha t is bringing 2,000 people from all over the world to look at what Manitoba has to offer in tourism, and th is is going to bring in dollars and tourists . Tourism Estimates - re-evaluate MR. E.

CONNERY: We will disagree with her stats for Manitoba and we'll prove that wrong but, in light of the fact, Madam Speaker, that Saskatchewan spend s $4 million on media advertising, Manitoba spen t $700,000, and the little Province of PEI spent $775,000 , and there is no increase in the Estimates for this year, will the Minister re-evaluate her Estimates so that we: can restore tourism to the place that it should be in Manitoba? HON. M.

HEMPHILL: Well , Madam Speaker , I'm delighted to hear that the member opposite for a change, instead of being concerned about the deficit , wants to add money to my budget and wants to give me more money. I suppose we'd all like to have additional money , but the important thing is that we use the money we have properly. What we're doing in Manitoba, unlike most of the other provinces, is we're not just relying on the provincial Treasury . We ' re combining our action with the private industry and with the tourism sector, and combined we're getting the amount of money we need for our advertising dollar. 1547

Friday, 1 May, 1987 Daerwood Machine Works - tabling details of loan MR. E. CONNERY: Last week the Minister of Business Development erroneously stated that she had given me the information on Daerwood Machine Works Limited. The Minister obviously has that information. Would she now supply it to the House? Will she tell us what security was there for the loan . . . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. MR. E. CONNERY: . . what was the

schedule of repayment , and what is the

schedule . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. I do hope the honourable member is not accusing the Minister of deliberately giving erroneous information. The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. E. CONNERY : . . . what is the

schedule of repaymen t being followed? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Madam Speaker, when this matter was raised before, I believe that what I said is that I had had a private discussion with the Member for Portage la Prairie, and I believed that I had answered 'the questions that he had asked but that, if I hadn't, 'I was quite prepared to give him all the additional information I have .

Madam Speaker, I just had a discussion with him two minutes ago, again about this matter, and told him that I had the information, but that it was fairly lengthy and I do not think they would · 1et me give it in the Chamber because the details are too lengthy and they would say to table it or to give it to them. So I told him I would deliver it to him this afternoon. He has a very short memory . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! Shamattawa - prov./fed. negotiations re power lines to reserves MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights . MRS. S.

CARSTAIRS: Thank you, Madam Speaker. ; Madam Speaker, my question is to the Minister of · Energy.

There has been, in the past couple of years, media , coverage with regard to Shamattawa which depicts not ; a very nice place to live in Manitoba, and I know that the Attorney-General and the Community Services Minister have both indicated their very grave concerns about the quality of life on that Indian reservation. ' Will the Energy Minister please inform the House what · negotiations his department has entered into with the Federal Government to ensure that the Federal , Government's responsibilities in this matter, to provide a transmission line into this community, are in fact brought into fruition? , MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Energy and Mines.

HON. W. PARASIUK: Yes, Madam Speaker. I'd certainly be very happy to deal with that question . We have been in negotiations with the Federal Government with respect to their paying their fair share of transmission costs to reserve communities in Northern Manitoba for a number of years, going back probably 10 or 12 years, and cont inuing on a year-by­ year basis to today. There are a number of commun ities that are not provided with mainline transmission. Shamattawa is one . There are a whole set of communities in the northeast part of Manitoba, and there are selected other communities.

It is the position of the Manitoba Government and the position of Manitoba Hydro that, when the Federal Government commits itself to paying its fair share, the province will put in its fair share and transmission lines would be proceeded with. To date, we have not been able to get any positive answer from the Federal Government in that respect, even though Indians , under the Indian Act, are a federal responsibility. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: A supplementary question to the same Minister.

Will this province commit itself to a feasibility study, which would establish the appropriate location of the transmission line into the community of Shamattawa, thereby affirming this province's comm itment to that line? HON. W. PARASIUK: Madam Speaker, in answer to that question, I believe the member is putting the cart before the horse. I think it would be very important to get commitments from the Federal Government that they are prepared to cost share, and then we would work co-operatively with all groups trying to determine the best right-of-way and the best way of proceeding with that line.

If one goes out and spends money in this area and that area, knowing full well that the Federal Government has not given any inkling that they will cost share in that development, even though that is their responsibility, then I do not think that would be a wise expenditure of money, nor would it be the proper way in which to proceed with those types of development. We have stressed repeatedly that it is the Federal Government's responsibility to meet its obligations.

We have noted from documents by the Federal Government, their own Nielsen Report has indicated that the Federal Government, over a number of years, has cut back expenditures in Northern Manitoba to reserves. We are troubled by that, Madam Speaker, but that is something that the Federal Government has to come to grips with, that they have a rightful obligation under the Constitution, under the laws of the land, and they are not meeting that obligation. Springhill Farms - union vote MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. J.

McCRAE: Madam Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of Labour. The Minister has steadfastly refused to allow a vote to be held among the Springhill workers at Neepawa, 1548

Friday, 1 May, 1987 as to which union should represent them . Madam Speaker, those workers last evening, supervised by local officials including the local Lutheran minister and a magistrate, did finally conduct a vote as to which union should represent them - 11 of 108 workers chose the United Food and Comm ercial Workers Union; four chose no union at all; one ballot was spoiled, Madam Speaker; and 92 workers selected the in-plant Springhill Farms Union. Madam Speaker , that amounts to 85 percent of the vote. What does the Minister intend to do now? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour . HON. A.

MACKLING: Madam Speaker, this Minister intends that the processes that are available, that have been enshrined in legislation, not only in this province but throughout Canada, to protect the integrity and the independence of the bargaining and certification process, are maintained. It's my understanding that the group that the honourable member refers to has indicated to the Labour Board that they want a review of its decision. I am not going to interfere with any of those processes. Springhill Farms - request Labour Board to reopen case MR. J. McCRAE: Madam Speaker, I have a new question for the Minister.

The workers in Neepawa, Madam Speaker, are struggling very hard to allow the human spirit to triumph over the version of democracy espoused by the Minister and his rich and powerful friends in the union movement. Will the Minister now direct the board, after repeated requests by myself and by the workers out there, will the Minister now direct that board, the Labour Board, to reopen the case, revoke the certification of the UFCW and direct the board to conduct a vote of its own in the plant? HON. A.

MACKLING: Madam Speaker, I am not going to engage in a debate with the honourable member as to the merits of the case that may be before the board. I have taken the trouble to read the decision of the Labour Board in respect to the applicat ions that were before it. They appear to me to be based on conclusions which they reasonably drew from the evidence they heard, and based on the precedence in law from both sister provinces in Saskatchewan and Ontario. Madam Speaker, certainly at some stage the workers in that plant had agreed to a certification process, the work was proceeded with.

And this institution, this Legislature, should not be the forum in which the rivalries between groups desiring certification or decertification are adjudicated. MR. J. McCRAE: What we're talking about, Madam Speaker, is respect for the simple process of democracy. Man. Gov't - policy re working people of Manitoba MR. J. McCRAE: Madam Speaker, my next question is to the Deputy Premier . On what other matters of public administration is it the policy of this government to ignore the working people of Manitoba?

Keewatin College - continuation of operation at The Pas MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. C. BIRT: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is directed to the Minister of Education . Could the Minister advise if his depa rtment has had any discussions internally, or any studies or discussions with other departments of government, to close the Keewatin College at The Pas and to transfer it s operations to Thompson, Manitoba? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. J. STORIE: No, Madam Speaker. MR. C.

BIRT: Madam Speaker, can the Minister assure the House that the college will con tin ue in The Pas for at least the next 10 years? HON. J. STORIE: Madam Speaker, I don't know where the member is picking up his rumours, but I've indicated - Oh, perhaps he's starting on that, perhaps I overlooked that possibility. I thought perhaps the member knew better than that. I've indicated in my first answe r that there is no intention of doing that. There are no discussions in doing that. And, Madam Speaker, I th ink that he's looking at the wrong side of the House.

This is the government who has expanded opportunities for northern people for educa tion, for employment and training opportu nities, Madam Speaker. We are committed to making sure that Northerners have those kinds of opportunities. This would be the last government , Madam Speaker, who would renege on the kind of commitment that 's been made to Northern Manitoba, and I find the suggestion ludicrous and the request for a commitment ludicrous . The commitment's here; it's been demonstrated time and time again. Keewatin College - app't of new principal MR. C.

BIRT: Madam Speaker, my final question to the Minister of Education. I believe the present either principal or superintendent of the Keewatin College is retiring at the end of June. Will a new superintendent or principal be appoi nted? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, of course . Licence plates - supported by law enforcement agencies MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is to the Honourable Minister responsible for Highways and Transportation . The Minister announced yesterday that the province was planning to move into a single licence plate, with 1549

Friday, 1 May, 1987 the licence plate on the rear of the vehicle to effect some small savings and, goodness knows, the government needs some savings wherever they can find them. Could he inform the House if he has received the support of the highway patrols and the police forces throughout the pro vin ce? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Highways and Transportation. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Madam Speaker , I'm pleased that the Member for Minnedosa supports the cost-saving measures that we are undertaking within the departme nt.

Madam Speaker, the savings will be somewhere in the neighbourhood of $210,000 per year, and will be substantially more at the point in time when the licence pl ate s come up for general ren ewal eve ry eight or ten years. Because of that saving, the government decided to go forward with this move that is in place in Prince Edward Island and Quebec, the singl e licence plates. We had found no evidence there that there was an inordinate difficulty with enforcement of traff ic offences and so on by the enforcement agencies in those provinces.

I want to also remind the member that 20 jurisd ict ions, approximately, in the United States also have a single licence plate , and again there is no particular evidence that was brought to our attention of difficulties with enforcement. MR. D. BLAKE: I thank the Minister for that answer that small savings may help to pick up some of the losses in CEDF, Madam Speaker. Has the Minister had any consultations with the police forces before he's planne d this particular move? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, Madam Speaker, we have indicated our intentions to the police forces and to the Attorney-General's department.

It is true that the enforcement agencies do not relish the idea. However , as I indicated, in looking at the degree of enforceability in other ju risdictions we could find no evidence that this had pres ented any particularly difficult problems for enforcement agencies in those provinces, in those jurisdictions. So, yes, we had consulted with them and indicated that we were going to proceed and ask for their comments, as I've indicated, Madam Speaker. Awasis Agency - investigation of MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER : Thank you, Madam Speaker.

I have a question for the Minister of Community Services, Madam Speaker. Appro xim ately a month-and­ a-half ago, I raised in the Legislature the concerns with respect to the 14-year-old gir l who'd been raped and suffered other abuse in Northern Manitoba, and asked her to investigate the role of her department in the Awasis Agency in that matter; she undertook to do that . In view of the fact that one-and-a-half months has now transp ired, I would ask her if she would be prepared to provide us with a copy of the investigation report? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Services. HON. M.

SMITH: Madam Speaker, the report is being worked on now. John Ross has been involved and has had several meetings with Awasis Agency , and I will have that report shortl y. I don't know the particular deadline , but it should be within a few weeks. MR. G. MERCIER: Well, Madam Speaker, a month­ and-a-half has transpired since that incident was raised here. Would she advise the House whether she is prepared to provide members of the Opposition and the Legislature with a copy of that investigation report? HON. M.

SMITH: Madam Speaker, I'm prepared to review the report and see if there is confidential information that our act really does keep in confidence, but we're certainly prepared to provide a

summary and recommendations from the report. Child Abuse Review Committee Report - quarterly reports re implementation MR. G. MERCIER: Madam Speaker , another question to the Minister. When the Report on Child Abuse by Dr. Sigurdson or Professor Reid was released, the Minister indicated that there would be formed a committee of Deputy Ministers of various departments to implement that report.

I had asked her whether she would provide the House with quarterly reports from those meetings and we didn't get an answer, but I would ask her now whether that committee has met and, if so, could members of the Legislature have minutes of their meeting. HON. M. SMITH: Madam Speaker , I think a committee of deputies will be making recommendations for action . I, again, don't think that type of committee and its minutes is normally available to the public, but I'm quite prepared to give quarterly updates on action taken with regard to the review.

Child Abuse Review Committee Report - meeting of deputy ministers to implement MR. G. MERCIER: Madam Speaker, has that committee of Deputy Ministers yet met? HON. M. SMITH: Madam Speaker, my own department has been awaiting the appointment of the new deputy, and I'm very happy to say that he has now arrived and is in place . I have, as one of the prime priority initiatives , asked that he call that meeting very, very soon. Hockey - gov't funding, recreational hockey MR. G.

MERCIER: Madam Speaker , a further question to the Minister responsible for Sport . 1550 Yesterday the Minister, as I understand it , met with representatives of the Amateur Hockey Association to

Friday, 1 May, 1987 which he kindly invited me, but I was not able to attend because of other commitments. I would ask him now if he's prepared to stand by his previous statements that he was going to reduce funding if there wer e no concrete steps taken to remove violence in amateur hockey , or whether he has revised his positio n as a result of that meeting. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister responsible for Sport . HON. L. DESJARDINS: Madam Speake r, we had a very good meeting. There is no doubt that the president and the executive director are very concerned with the state of affairs in the hockey world.

Even before the statement and the discussion that we had in the House, they had placed - as the priority for their discussion at the meeting that they're having this weekend, it's their annual meeting - programs of awareness, programs of tightening up rules and so on. I left him yesterday afternoon with this thought, that they should discuss it and take advantage of their coming meeting, and that then we would get together again after to see how we can help and work together in this. Gay Film Festival - grant to MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Springfield. MR. G. ROCH: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

My question is to the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation. On Monday of this week, the Minister told the House that the Gay and Lesbian Film Festival had the support of the Embassies of Spain, Holland, France, Germany and Britain. In view of the fact that this is not so, would the Minister now correct her statement, which was not factual? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation. HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

I indicated previously to the House, Madam Speaker, that this film festival was receiving support from a number of bus inesses, a number of Embassies, a number of other major and significant institutions in our society, and I have no further information to indicate that the information I presented to the House is wrong.

I think the persistence from members opposite to raise these questions, particularly following comments made recently by the Member for Arthur in this House, tells me and tells all members on this side of the House that members opposite are interested in nothing but attacking a minority group in our society. MR. G. ROCH: The British Embassy did not support it; the Spanish Embassy does not ; the Netherlands Embassy does not; the French Embassy does not; the German Embassy does not . Many other organizations that were put on the record did not. Anyway, I have a new question to the same Minister.

On Thursday of last week, the Minister informed the House that decisions on a Community Placement Program would be finalized by the end of April. Have these decisions been made , and when will the various applicants be informed of these decisions? HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Madam Speake r, yes, the decisions have been made, and all organizations whose projects have been approved will be receiving the news very shortly. 1551 Sargeant, Terry; Goertzen, Jeanette - duties with Dept. of Northern Affairs MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. HON. E.

HARPER: I would like to answer some questions that I took as notice for the Member for Minnedosa in respect to Terry Sargeant and Jeanette Goertzen, and there was also a question raised earlier regarding Phil Eyler. Regarding Jeanette Goertzen, Jeanette Goertzen was appointed by Order-in-Council, August 1984, as Special Assistant to Northern Affairs. In October, 1985 , she was transferred to the Agreements Management section, Special ARDA, as a field worker. This appointment was made and the compe tition was waived.

She's an Affirmative Action candidate and , upon this waiver, this employee took a $6,300 reduction in salary. She's responsible for meetings with local natural resource har vesters, and will explain this Special ARDA program. The other is Terry Sargeant. He was hired as a Director of Research and Planning, March 1985, on term, and he was appointed permanently, effective May 1, 1986. I'll just make a note here, he acted as a Deputy Minister for four months without monetary remuneration . And the duties - I believe the member asked for duties.

He provides an overall policy analysis, planning and program development, formulating and recommending policy options to assist in establishing departmental priorities, developing options to achieve identified objectives, reviewing branch budgets to ensure departmental priorities are achieved. Eyler, Phil - employment of HON. E. HARPER: In regard to Phil Eyler, he was hired on term on August 18, 1986, as an analyst for land and resource use planning under the Development Services Branch; the employee is on term at this time .

This position, once decided to make it permanent, will be advertised and interviews will be held. Gunn, N.D.- T-4's for Gunn Const. HON. E. HARPER: The other question that I took as notice was with respect to the T4 slips that may have been done in my office or in the office of my staff. In respect to N.D. Gunn 's T-4 slips, I cannot confirm this rumour at all. I've checked with the staff. Maybe the Honourable Member for Minnedosa would like to clarify or provide me with more information as to the time - I don't seem to get the answer - so I am able to provide him with the best answer.

Friday, 1 May, 1987 Sargeant, Terry; Goertzen, Jeanette; Eyler, Phil - remuneration paid MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I thank the Minister for those answers. I had asked him the amount of remuneration being paid to these individuals, and he did not give me that figure. HON. E. HARPER: They're not listed on the fact sheet here, but I'll get back to the member. Sugar beet industry - tripartite agreement MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. H. PANKRATZ: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Seeing the Minister of Agriculture is not in the House thi s morning, I'd like to address my questions to the Acting Minister of Agriculture, if I may. Yesterday, the Minister of Agr iculture stated that a proposa l has been made to the Fetteral Government in respect to the Sugar Beet agreement, and that he was waiting for a reply. I'd like to ask the Acting Minister : Would the Minister inform this House as to the progress of that statement? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Thank you , Madam Speaker.

As the member knows, I've been involved in the negotiations. We do not have an answer back. The position is now this, that we had put several count erproposals on the table days ago between the Premier, the Minister of Agriculture, the Minister of Health and Welfare, and the Minister in charge of the Wheat Board - I'm sorry, the Minister in charge of the Wheat Board was not involved at that time.

The Minister of Health put a counterproposal forward which we accepted for an agreement, and the Minister of Health is currently working on having the system, federal system, approve of that counter-counteroffer made by the Federal Government. So, once that's approved, we will have a sugar agreement. MR. H. PANKRATZ: Could the Minister of Industry and Technology assure this House that this agreement could be reached or finalized this weekend? HON. V. SCHROEDER: From our perspective, we're prepared to sign the agreement at any time .

I understand that the federal system - and we are at agreement with the Minister of Health as to the terms and conditions of that agreement. It is simply a matter of the federal syste m now approving of those terms and conditions. We're prepared to sign any time. I can provide the member with a copy of the telex that we had forwarded on to the Federal Minister of Health , just to show in what context we're involved with the agreement. Hopefully, it's done quickly and done today, so that farmers can get on with their seeding.

I should say, just as one addition because occasionally the question has arisen as to the position of the Alberta Government, the Alberta Government has been consulted. The Alberta Government is quite pleased with the arrangement. Gay Film Festival - form of support by foreign Embassies MR. J. McCRAE: Madam Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation. Earlier in the question period, the Minister told us that she stands by her words of earlier this week, that various Embassies support the Gay and Lesbian Film Festival here in Winnipeg this week.

On behalf of the people of Britain , Madam Speaker, Spain, Netherlands, France and Germany, I must say that the people in those countries must be very concerned. MADAM SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have a question? MR. J. McCRAE: Yes I do, Madam Speaker. They must be very concerned to know that their Embassies are supporting this endeavour . I wonder, Madam Speaker, if the Minister can tell us what form the support of these Embassies takes, and does it amount to the $3,000 of support given by this government to this festival?

MADAM SPEAKER: Would the honourable member care to rephrase his question so it is within the jurisdiction of the Minister? The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. J. McCRAE: Madam Speaker, the Minister gave us the information. I'm asking her to enlarge on that information and to let us know what form that support took. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Culture and Heritage Resources . HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Thank you , Madam Speaker . The Member for Brandon West has it all wrong. The misrepresentation and the distortion of the facts have come from members opposite .

They have used their position, and they have raised this matter in a way that totally misrepresents . . . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: . . . a group in our society MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. I do hope the Honourable Minister is not accusing anyone of deliberately misleading. 1552 The Honourable Minister of Culture and Heritage Resources .

Friday, 1 May, 1987 HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Madam Speaker, I certainly wasn't suggesting thi:lt members opposite were deliberately misrepresenting anything in this House. What I was saying, Madam Speaker , is that over the last few days and weeks we have heard from members opposite nothing but a lot of innuendo and disgusting statements about a group in our society, and consistently and persistently they have refused to listen to the facts. Worse than that, when they know the facts, they continue to misrepresent them.

Madam Speaker, I suggest that members opposite do a little more research before they raise these kinds of issues in the House and try to refrain from demeaning so many individuals in our society . They have done it consistently with Native people; they have done it with homosexuals; they have done it with women; they have done it consistently . . . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please . HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: . . . on a number of occasions, and I think that if anything should be corrected on the record it should . . . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The time for Oral Questions has expired.

The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. J. McCRAE: Madam Speaker, the Minister of Culture - on a point of order . . . MADAM SPEAKER: On a point of order. MR. J. McCRAE: The Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation has accused me of misleading this House and I suggest that, if she has said that I have deliberately misled this House, the Minister has told us . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please . The Honourable Member for Brandon West with a point of order . MR. J.

McCRAE: Madam Speaker, the Minister has said that we are putting out innuendo and misstatements of fact, and I suggest the Minister should not make statements like that in this House. I, Madam Speaker, have taken the trouble to contact the British High Commission . The British High Commission denies support for the Gay and Lesbian Film Festival. This Minister told this House that festival is supported by the British High Commission . Madam Speaker, the Embassy of Spain has indicated to me that the support for the festival came, not from the Embassy but from the . . . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please.

May I please hear the honourable member 's point of order, and then we'll have a decision on whether it is a point of order or not . MR. J. McCRAE: Madam Speaker, the Basque Province's tourist bureau in Toronto told this festival that one film would be made available. That film has never arrived, Madam Speaker .

No film has been supplied by the Dutch Embassy; no film has been made available by the French Embassy; and one or two films were made available by a German film institute , Madam Speaker, which had nothing to do with the German Embassy, which does not in any way, shape or form indicate support for the Gay and Lesbian Film Festival. Madam Speaker, the people of the countries I've referred to would like to have this matter cleared up, and I would ask the Minister to tell us what form that support takes.

Rather tha n accuse me of putting misinformation on the record of this House, I would rather the Minister put the facts on the record, Madam Speake r. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Governm ent House Leader on the point of order . HON. J. COWAN: Yes, Madam Speaker, on the poin t of order , quite often you have admonishe d members and Ministers as well from bringing up as points of order what are obviously disputes over facts. The member just started out on a point of order over something that was obviously a dispute over the facts , and then ended up trying to get us back into question period .

Madam Speaker, it is not question period; he did not have a point of order; it is a d ispute over facts . And I would suggest to you that members opposite should not ... A MEMBER: Break routine. MADAM SPEAKER: Order please . A MEMBER: When you have a point of order, Madam Speaker is making the judgment on it. MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Government House Leader . HON. J. COWAN: The Member for Emerson asked why it is I have a point of order, if the Member for Brandon doesn't have a point of order. MADAM SPEAKER: Would the Honourable Government House Leader please continue with his advice to me? HON.

J. COWAN: Yes, Madam Speaker, and my advice to you is that, if the Member for Emerson suggests that I don 't have a point of order, he has very clearly made the case that his member did not have a point of order , and we should stop seeing the abuse of the rules perpetrated in this House in that manner. SPEAKER'S RULING MADAM SPEAKER: On the point of order of the Member for Brandon West, I have informed the House many times that a dispute over the facts is not a point of order.

However, I would like to caution all members that when they are having a disagreement over the facts, would they please watch very carefully the language that they use to express that disagreement. 1553

Friday, 1 May, 1987 INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MADAM SPEAKER: May I also direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery , where we have 22 stu dents from Grade 11 from the Gimli Composite High Scho ol under the direction of Mr. Nick Melnychuk . The school is located in the const ituency of the Honour able Member for Gimli , the Honourab le Minister of Municipal Affairs. On behalf of all the members we welcome you to the Legislature this morn ing . We also had with us - and I am sorry they have already departed - 50 students from Grade 5 from the Arthur E. Wright School unde r the dire ction of Ms. C.

Slosodian. The school is in the constituenc y of the Honourable Member for Kildonan. We are pleased that they were ab le to be with us ,his morning, as wel l. ORDERS OF THE DAY MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader . HON. J. COWAN: Madam Speaker , would you please call Second Reading on Bill No. 12, on page 3 of the Order Paper, and then call the Debate on Second Read ing starti ng with Bill No. 3, on page 1, and proceedin g through in order to Bill No. 22, on page 3. SECOND READING BILL NO. 12 - THE HIGHWAYS AND TRANSPORTATION DEPARTMENT ACT MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourab le Mi nis ter of Highways .

HON. J. PLOHMAN presented Bill No. 12,

An Act to amend The Highways and Transporta tio n Department Act , for Second Reading. MOTION presented. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourab le Minister, HON . J. PLOHMAN: Madam Speaker , there are relatively a small number of amendments to The Highways and Transp ortation Ac t as Bill No. 12 here that I would lik e to intro duce at this time . These amendments are aimed at streamlining the administrative process for severa l agreement s and regulations under The Highways and Transportation Department Act .

The amendments respecting airports will facilitate payment of grants to various communities under the Southern Manitoba Airport Ass istance Program that has been in place for a number of years in this province. This program provides for airport const ruction grants and ann ual airport operating grants to municipal airport commi ssions which operate properly licensed airports open to the pub lic, and maintained at a level of maintenance comm ensurate with their licence. In 1986- 87, 28 grants were made under this program.

Madam Spe ake r, I have copies of this statemen t for the membe rs of the Opposition, if the Page wouldn 't min d distributing them. The amendment will elimina te the need for preparation and procedure for numerous Orders-in ­ Council, and these grants will now be approved by Treasury Board , instead of having to go through Orders ­ in-Cou ncil for every one of them. This will give uniform ity to the administrative process for these types of grants in the Department of Highways and Transportation .

The grant will be paid to an airport com missio n which may be co mprised of representatives, or two or more individuals . This will nega te the procedure of processing the grant th rough a municipality. This simplifies the process because , in many cases , a number of municipa lities are respons ible tor the operation of an airport, and there may be some confusion about which municip ality should receive the grant payment , so it will go directly to the airport commission . (Mr. Deputy Speaker, C.

Santos , in the Chair.) Secondly, a new subsection is proposed to fac ilit ate payment of grants to various communities under the program tor the transportation of the mobility disadvantaged in rur al Manitoba . This pro gram offers financial assistance to rural communities, providing a transpo rtation service to the mobi lity disadvan taged . There are some 30 communities throughout th e province involved in this program. It's been growing substantially over the last number of years, havin g been in place for about five -and-a-h alf years.

This subsect ion will elimi nat e the required procedure tor t he labou r-inte nsive prepa rati on of numerous Orders-in-Council, and wi ll substantially imp rove administrat ive proc edure in payment of the se grants. Municipalities currently experience d iffi culty submitting audited financ ial statements in time to meet the departments year-end deadline for these programs operating in their area, and this causes administrative delays tor the department as it attemp ts to make grant payments by March 31 , fiscal year-end .

As well , an amendment to the act is required to implement a $50 fee for building an access, permit applications issued by the Highway Traffic Board . This tee wi ll be set by regulation , but in order to set a regulation , to have a regulation prepared for a fee such as this , an amendment to the act was necessary . There are approximately 600 applications tor access driv eway structures adjacent to the prov incial road syst em p er year, and they are processed at no charge currently . A policy to charge a tee for this service was approved during the '87-88 Revenue Estimates .

I am hopeful that these amendments will facilitat e the administration of these agreements and regulations managed by my Department of Highways and Transportation . Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker . MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Minnedosa . MR. D. BLAKE: I move , seconded by the Honourable Member for Gladstone , that debate be adjourn ed. MOTION presented and carried . 1554 t

Friday, 1 May, 1987 ADJOURNED DEBATE ON SECdND READING BILL NQ 3 - THE MANITOBA ADVISORY COUNCIL ON THE STATUS OF WOMEN ACT MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Continuing on debate on Second Reading , on the proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Culture , Heritage and Recreation, Bill No. 3, The Manitoba Advisory Council on the Status of Women Act. The Honourable Minister of Corrections and Social Services . HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I rise to speak in support of the act to incorporate the Advisory Council and give it permanence. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I think this is a move that is part of an historical development with regard to the promotion of women's rights that started two decades ago really, with a group of volunteers getting tog ether and eventually persuading the Federal Government to start a Royal Commission and carry on a cross-country assessment of the status of women, and an identification of the type of actions required at the municipal, provincial and federal levels to advance the legal, social, economic and political status of women throughout the country.

The volunteer groups, particularly the group in Manitoba, provided a lot of the basic conceptual material and recommendations that went into the final report, and it was indeed a landmark when tha t report was published very early in the 1970's. There was a period of time then that I well recall, Mr. Deputy Speaker, when the women of the province, indeed of the country, thought that the preparation of a report and recommendations would lead, in short order, to the type of reforms recommended, and I guess that was a day of political naivete.

Certainly there were well-prepared briefs presented to all levels of government, and indeed an expection that , after well­ prepared briefs and recommendations, action would follow. And again, I certainly recall our reflection at that time that, if we were going to get movement on the political level, it was going to take more than careful analysis and identification of problems and areas for action . It was at that time that many action committees grew up across the country . Initially, they were voluntary.

They did gradually , over time, acquire a small bit of funding from different levels of government , but they have always operated on a shoestring, and a great deal of volunteer effort and passion, I would say, for the development of more equal status for women. It was out of a lot of that activity, lobbying , work ing with the media, a lot of speeches, public educat ion , that governments did slowly start to put into effect programs, legislation to advance the cause of women.

Human rights legislation that was put in, both provincially and federally, started to deal with discrimination based on sexual factors, and that's an ongoing process, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that still needs further development. Major changes occurred in Family Law , and I think here it's important to recognize that a lot of these advances were occurring in all political parties, partly because of the good research and lobbying done by many women's groups, but I think equally because there were receptive ears, Mr. Deputy Speaker, in all political parties.

And I think it's important to note, at this time , that a lot of the advances in Family Law, after a few zigs and zags, did come about because of a changed perspective by the Government of the Day. I think, in this House, it's important to recognize when both parties move along somewhat in synchronization on some of these issues. It was under an NOP Government that some important Fami ly Law was put in. After a bit of hesitancy and further deliberation , those laws were supported and strengthened by the Conservative Government of the Day, led very much by the Opposition House Leader.

There was another initiative that occurred during the Opposition, and t hat was the development of an advisory council. Across the country there are now advisory councils in all provinces. Six of these have been recognized by

an act, what we will, after this act is passed, have in Manitoba . Four, as yet , are still operating under an Order-in-Council. But I think it's representing an evolution. When they first came, I think the hope was that they would put themselves qui ckly out of business, perhaps either getting tired of recommending issues that didn't get action or, more optimistically, that they would accomplish their goals and the basic equality measure s would be in place and they could then disband. It's still my hope, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, that the need for a special Advisory Council on the Status of Women will , in our lifetime, become unnecessary, because I think it is the devout wish of most women activists that these basic equality measures will become so much a part of our daily life that they won't require special means. But for the present, I think that the issues are still pending resolution, and I think the incorporation of an advisory council with very wide representation , geographically, different groupings of women, is an important tool. The way the Advisory Council works, Mr. Deputy Speaker, is twofold.

It is an active consultation group , focus for reaching out to women across the province and identifying their concerns, and then advising the government of what their priority concerns are. It's also an active body in terms of making recommendations to government, both for legislation and for program development. 1555 I think just a brief listing of the areas that they have researched and where they have had significant imp act over time serves to demonstrate that truth.

They have presented recommendations in the area of human rights legislation with specifics relating to sexua l harassment , sexual orientation, discrimination on the basis of pregnancy. In the field of employment, they've worked on affirmative action and pay equity, and how government Crowns and departments can better implement employment training and access programs.

In health, again an emerging area, and I expect we're going to hear a fair bit more from them on the specific problems of women in health, but they have taken action on whether or not the drug , depo-provera , should have been legalized, on the issue of reproductive choice, and on the emerging issue of whether or not Manitoba should have a midwifery program. In education, they focused on family life education, pre-trades training for women, a preventative program in the area of sexual abuse.

Again, they've gone on to look at governmen t expenditures, recommending the inclusion of women' s resource centres , how women can get a fair share of

Friday, 1 May, 1987 Lotteries' funds, and express themselves very effectively on the Home Economics Directorate. Again, I've on ly given just a rough listing. There's a much more exhaustive list available in the Annual Report of the Advisory Council. But I think the input that they provide to government, and the outreach they provide to a group in the community which still has difficulty mobilizing around its specific interests and focusing the concerns so that they get into the general mix and the decision making, I think, is very much needed.

So I commend the Minister responsible for the Status of Women for bringing this particular act forward , and urge all members of the House to give it their wholehearted support. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I wish to make some brief comments with respect to this bill , because it should be noted - and I believe the Minister did , in fact, in her press release when she introduced the bill , note that an Advisory Committee on the Status of Women had been introduced in 1980, when members on this side of the House were fortunate enough and had the privilege of forming government in this province. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I cite that not because I, in any way, want to indicate that this side shows more concern or that side shows more concern for the interests of women . I don't think any members of the House should embark on that type of approach to this piece of legislation. I think it is agreed, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that all members of the House are extremely concerned with the status of women and their role in society and the opportunities that they can and should have in society. Certainly, we're therefore supportive of the bill. The bill is another step in the process .

It is, I suppose, questionable whether it is really needed, because a piece of legislation by itself is not going to help women in society, Mr. Deputy Speaker. It is the will and determination of those who form government from time to time, who will use that determination and act in ways that will help and assist women in achieving the role in society that they justly deserve . Mr. Deputy Speaker, I note in the bill, in the

preamble, the second

preamble indicates : "AND

WHEREAS the role of women in childbearing should not be a source of discrimination and that the upbringing of children requires a sharing of responsibility between women and men and society as a whole . There's no question in my mind and certainly in the minds of members of the House, I hope, that the role of bringing up children and raising children is a dual responsibility of both the mother and the father , and I don't question that. I do indicate a concern however, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, that we should take into consideration and always keep in the back of our mind when we're dealing with the role of women in society with respect to childbearing, because there are certainly women who do not have a choice of remaining at home to look after their childr .en for economic reasons that we're all well aware of, Mr. Deputy Speaker. There are many women in society who have to go to work and have to use day care facilities that are avai lable and, hopefully, there will be sufficient day care facilities available. But what has come to my attention, Mr.

Deputy Speaker , is that there are another group of women in society who have made a deliberate choice to stay home and to raise children. In my discussions with them and any one who has spoken to women at social gatherings, the question is always put , do you work , the implication being , if you have made the choice to stay at home to raise children, you do not work. Of course, the right answer for those wome n is that they work in the home . But I think many women who do that, they feel discriminated against in soc iety now.

I th ink that's something we should be very much aware of, because the role of childbearing and for tho se who are able to make that choice to do that in the home or who make a financial sacrifice to do that in the ir home instead of working outside of the home to add ext ra income should be respected in our society , a nd should not have to suffer, Mr. Deputy Speaker, the type of discrimination that I think many of them do indeed feel. We should always recognize that they perform one of the most important jobs in our society, that being the care, nurture, upbringing and education of children.

It is a very difficult task, a very arduous task, a very lonely task , and I respect them for it. I respect the job that they have to do in that particular area and I hope all members do that, and that in our quest to obtain equal status for women, which we all share and we all want and hope that women will be able to obtain and work at any job that any man can do. We all know they are capable of doing that. We want to see them where they wish to make that decision and that career choice and achieve their goals.

At the same time, for the woman who makes that decision to stay in the home and raise children, we should respect them for it and commend them for it, because they are raising the very future of our province and of our country, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and in fact they do the best job at it. Again, that is not to say that fathers should not be performing and sharing of responsibility in the raising of children . Mr. Deputy Speaker, there is one other aspect of the bill that I would like to make a few comments on.

I don't know whether there is any real solution to the problem , but it is the reference to the fact that the council is solely appointed by the Lieutenant-Governor­ in-Council , that being the Cabinet in power at the time. Certainly when we initiated the Advisory Council on the Status of Women, for the record, we appointed the members to the Advisory Council of the Status of Women. Under this bill and since this government has been in power, they have appointed all of the members by Cabinet decree . It seems to me, Mr.

Deputy Speaker , and this is a concern that has arisen in the appointment of a number of other boards and commissions in the province - and the Human Rights Commission is another example where boards had been wholly changed as a result of a change in government.

But where there is a function being performed by a board that is very important to society as a whole and where it is therefore very impor tant th at a ll shades of opinion across the political spectrum should be taken into consideration in the decisions of a group like the Advisory Council on the Status of Women or the Human Rights Commission , for example, should there not be some consideration given to appointment of the 1556

Friday, 1 May, 1987 members of the Advisory Council on the Status of Women in a way different from this, solely appointed by the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council? Should there be members appointed from various other organizations, or should there be - in fact it would be extremely unique, and I suppose it's easier to say when you're in Opposi tion than when you're in government. Should there be appointments made by all political

partie s to a group performing a function like the Advisory Council on the Status of Women and the Human Rights Commission? Should not, in those kinds of groups or councils offering advice and looki ng at all of these types of prob lems, take into consideration a broad range of views across the political spectrum, perhaps in order to have more of a consensus and more support for their recommendations in urging government act ion in these particular areas?

I cite that - I don't expect the Minister really to probably change the bill, but I would think it would be - again in this type of function and as another example, the Human Rights Commission, an area that the Legislature should be looking at in orde r to avoid wholesale turnovers of people on changes of government and in order to obtain broader support for the recommendations of groups such as this or the Human Rights Commission. Other than that, Mr. Deputy Speaker, the bill really certainly causes no concern .

It is really just putting into a piece of legislation what is in fact existing, and I don 't think this bill means that there will be any change in the way that the Advisory Council on the Status of Women will operate. So I can find no objection to the bill in view of the fact that we originally established the Advisory Counc il on the Status of Women . Again, the real test of improving the positio n o f women will lie with the government and its will and determination to do that . Thank you , Mr. Deputy Speaker . MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister will now close debate. HON. J.

WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I'm pleased to have the opportunity to close debate on what I would call one of the most significant pieces of legislation before us, and I think it should be considered from the point of view of the impact that it will have, both symbolically and substantively, on the future of this province and on the future of over half of our population . I am more convinced than ever about the importance of this kind of legislation and the entrenchment of an Advisory Council on the Stat us of Women through legislation, given some of the developments recently in this House, Mr.

Deputy Speaker; given some of the comments made by members opposite about individuals and groups in our society who do not enjoy full equality. Mr. Deputy Speaker, the kind of statements that I have heard recently tell me that we must be, on this side of the House, more vigilant than ever about working toward equality for women, and ensuring that everyone in our society is able to enjoy dignity, respect, tolerance and be able to look to government for assistance with the creation of equal opportu nit ies, equal treatmen t and equal conditions. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, everyt hing I have heard over the last few weeks tells me that those sentiments are not shared by members opposite , and I get even more concerned when it comes to the comments made around this piece of legisl ation. The Member for St. Norbert suggests we should not get into a discussion about who shows greater support or who has worked harder on behalf of the women of Manitoba .

I don't intend on doing that, but I do intend on pointing out the necessity for this kind of legislation, given the kind of spurious and fallacious arguments and ways in which members opposite are pitting one group against another. Mr. Deputy Speaker, on every occas ion, using this piece of legislation as the tool for doing so, they have taken positions that we have made on this side of the House to address one group in society, one major group in our society and pitted that group against another by suggesting that we weren't looking after the inter ests of another group. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, no one, I think, has worked harder in this province on behalf of women who work in the home full time or part time or who work part time or full time on the farms than members on this side of the House. It's been a long-standing issue and policy with us to address the issues of retirement policies that adequately meet the needs of women, to deal with the situation of property law and matrimonial property arrangements, to use every available tool and resource available to us and address the situation facing wome n w orki ng full time or part time in the home.

All of us on this side of the House respect and admire the work of women who do that work . I have been in that situation . I know fully the responsibilities that are entaile d. I know the loneliness that comes from working in that kind of situation , and I think it's time that we starte d working together on these issues and not pitting one group against another. (Madam Speaker in the Chair.) Madam Speaker, I get very, very concerned when I hear members opposi te, particularly the Member for St. Norbert and the Member for River East, suggest that they have some real concerns with the

preamble in this legislation that talks about the responsibility of all of us for the children of our society, that talks about the responsibility of both men and women and society as a whole. I don't know how else one would wish to deal and treat the future of this province than to raise the issues of children and their needs to the highest political level, to give all of our energies and resourc es possible to ensure that our future is guaran teed through the health and well -being and welfare of our children.

Madam Speaker, it's quite a shock to me to hear from members opposite that society has no role to play when it comes to the children of working parents. I find again the arguments totally inco herent and spurious and fallacious. On the one hand, they will rise in this House and talk about the difficultie s facing children in our family and child welfare system and turn to us to put more and more resource s in that area but, on the other hand, the y are not prepared to deal with the situation before it beco mes the kind of problem tha t they are talking about and want us to address. Surely, 1557

Friday, 1 May, 1987 a responsible government looks at the source of the issue and the root of the problem and begins to deal with it on that basis. Surely, we should be worrying about the health, happiness and well-being of children who are now in situations where families, because both parents are working or because it's a single-parent situation , are having incredible difficulty trying to figure out how to ensure proper and decent care for their children . No one on this side of the House has ever suggested that there is a debate about who makes a better care giver.

That has been an issue raised solely by members opposite, starting with their colleague in Ottawa, Jake Epp, who chose to put on the table the issue of parents versus child care , parents versus day care . Madam Speaker, we have never approached the issue from that point of view. We have said there is a problem facing all of us. We know that more than 50 percent of women with pre-school children are in the work force . We know that 99 percent of those children of those parents who are working full time or part time out of the home do not have guaranteed child care arrangements.

They do not have child care arrangements that can ensure standards are met , that can ensure proper trained staff are available, that can ensure a worry-free work environment for those parents . I know that the Member for River East has attacked me personally, Madam Speaker , for daring to use the child care system in this province . Madam Speaker , that's what's wrong with members opposite. They get into judgments; they start judging women. They start pitting women against one another. We're not trying to do that. We're trying to address all the different needs in our society .

There is within our society - we've got to accept the fact - a large number of women who are working, either because of economic necessity or by choice, and I don 't think we should judge when it's by economic necessity or by choice . There has been an incredible increase in the number of two-parent families where both parents work since 1961. We've seen that percentage increase from 16 percent to over 50 percent . Times have changed, Madam Speaker. Governments have to keep up with realities. Our responsibility is the future of this province and the children of our province or we won't have a future to turn to.

We won't be able to guarantee a future for our children and our children's children to come . Madam Speaker , the solution to the problems of parents who work and have pre-school children is not to put in place, as the Member for River East has suggested, a ghettoized kind of day care situation, where those who perhaps are a little more well off should pay more and therefore encourages the establishment of a child care cent re for the middle class or the upper class, or the other end of the extreme, a child care centre for all welfare recipients or for all low-income people.

Madam Speaker , our whole objective has been to say it's a responsibility of any Government of the Day to put in place a system that is universal, at least in how it meets the needs . We're not saying universal in that we're ready at this point in our stage in life as a province to fully fund a child care system, but we're saying let's treat it the same way we do education. We've all recognized that there is a responsibility of government. There's a responsibility of society; there's a responsibility of the state to ensure proper standards through our education system.

I don 't know why we suddenly draw this line between those who are under the ages five or six and those who are over age six .

To me, the needs are as important at all those levels and for all those ages of children, and we should be working hard and together to try to find the best proper facility and services that will both ensure that those children have a wonderful upbringing through our child care system, and that their parents - those who work like me and who put in long , crazy hour s - have some comfort and relief, knowing that their ch ild a re being cared for properly, and can do their jobs much more adequately and responsibly because of that fact.

Madam Speaker, I hope thro ugh this debate that we will come together on the issue of child care, that we will stop pitting the working woman outside the labour force and the working woman inside the home aga inst one another. Their needs are different, so our policies have to be different. Our concern with the report by the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Child Care was simply from addressing it from the point of view of - it was supposed to be a response to the child care crisis in Canada . It didn't respond to the child care crisis in Canada. It responded to a hodgepodge of needs and satisfied no one.

What we're saying is, if you 're going to deal with the child care crisis in Canada, then you 've got to put money and resources and leadership into the question of facilities and staff and training opportunities, so that all of our children, not just a tiny little percentage, are able to receive the benefit of an organized kind of day care situation , whether that be in a facility like the one my son goes to, whether it be in a church basement, or whether it be in someone's home, but that all of those standards and all of those principles are put in place.

I consider myself fortunate , Madam Speaker, but not privileged. I'm pleased to be a part of a society that recognizes that child care should be available for all people who choose to work outside the home . I have seen the joy of my kind of child care situation , where my son, who's two-and-one-half years old, has gone off this morning with a whole busload of kids, from six-months old to five-years old, to the zoo, and experiences that kind of learning environment on a daily basis . So I'd like to see more of that, obviously.

I'd like to see other alternative arrangements too , so that whatever suits the mother or the father is available, but the bottom line is that there be some kind of standards set and some kind of principles implied to ensure quality control.

Madam Speake r, I have received many, many calls and many letters about the child care situation in Manitoba from all parts of the province since that Parliamentary Stand ing Committee came out , and all of the women writing me are talking about the difficulties they are having trying to find a space and being on a waiting list for some time, and not having any secure knowledge that they'll be able to enjoy what I enjoy.

I think we all have to work harder and harder and harder to keep expanding the kind of system that's in place here in Manitoba and that , in fact, is a model across Canada. 1558 Whenever I attend a federal-provincial meeting on Ministers responsible for the Status of Women ,

Friday, 1 May, 1987 Manitoba is the envy of every other province . No other province even comes close to addressing this very important issue from this perspective, and they're looking to us for leadership and for sharing of ideas to move that kind of a system right across this country. We hold out great hope that Jake Epp will yet be able to see wisdom in this approach and bring forwa rd a report that responds to the child care crisis in Canada. Madam Speaker , could you tell me how much time I have left? A MEMBER: Two days. HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Do I have two days left? Unlimited?

MADAM SPEAKER: Six teen minutes. HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Sixteen minutes, okay. Thank you, Madam Speaker . There has been throughout this debate some varying opinions expressed about how the Adv isory Council got started and who should be taking cred it for it. I don 't want to stand up on this side of the House and say we were the first to bring in an Advisory Council on the Status of Women . I know the facts . It was first established in 1980, the final year of a four -year term of office for the last Conservative Government -'81, perhaps . Yes, Madam Speaker?

MADAM SPEAKER: The honourable member has 26 minutes left, not 16. HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Twenty-six minutes , than k you. But in actual fact , Madam Speaker, it was not until December of 1982 when the council was re-established by members on this side, by this governme nt, and really became a real force in Manitoba's soc iety. The ki nd of work that Roberta Ellis and her council did at that period leading up to the present was a new era in our history.

We saw a new kind of activity from a coun cil that we have never seen before , and that council has been an absolute wealth of information, ideas and resources for us on this side of the House as we try to work diligently towards integration of women's concerns throughout all of our policies and to move as quickly as possible towards equality. I heard the Member for St. Norbert's concerns about appointments . I can tell the Member for St.

Norbert , he should look very carefully at the appointments that have been made to that council and see that they now represent every walk of life, every region of our province . We have a council now , Madam Speaker, that is diverse in terms of occup at ion, a council that is diverse in terms of region, a cou ncil tha t has farm women and rural women , a council that has women working in the home, a council that brings a whole divergence of views about how to appro ach Status of Women issues .

I think it's a model for all of us in terms of a properly constituted government-app ointed body, and I see that con tinuing . We certainly on this side of the House have every intention of work ing to ensure that council, by vir tue of the nature of its representation , is seen as an independent voice from government . I don't think there is any, any, any evidence to suggest anything to the contrary . There have been numerous reports and studies . I can 't say that there has been any study that has come out offering praise and support for any particular government position . They have done their job.

They have criticized, they have analyzed, and the y have presented constructive critical reports for us to deal with. I think the report of the Status of Women in the Jobs Fund is probably a good example. We, on this side of the House , Madam Speaker , have accepted that criticism and said , yes, we have a lot of work to do. It's going to take some time, but the kind of resources that you have presented to us and the kind of recommendations that are in your report will help us over the next few years as we try to address the whole question of economic strategies and job creation and training.

Madam Speaker, I'm looking forward to the counc il continuing on in that trad ition and hope that members oppos ite will appreciate and use their report s as much as we do, as they come to grips with some difficult issue s in the ir own ranks and in thei r own par ty. I think it's a useful tool and a useful body for all institutions , whethe r they be governments or political parti es or privat e sector compa nies or non-profit organiza tions.

The co unci l can assist both in term s of helping organizations incr ease the levels and numbers of women within the ir own ranks, as well as begin to address all issues from t he poin t of view of status of women and how every policy area must be looked at from the point of vi ew of equality and working ste adfastl y and strateg ically towards full equality between women and men.

Mada m Speaker, we have heard , over the course of th is debate, a number of concerns or positions express ed around the whole question of our response as a government to women in violent situations , women who have suffered abuse and, particularly, reference to Osborne House .

I want to take this oppor tunity , Madam Speaker, to say that I'm proud of this government's record and commitmen t on dealing with the issue of wife abuse in this province, a system of providing services that branch out into the communities of this prov ince , and which is based on a strategy that has been mapped out in consultatio n with the variou s front-li ne worker s who provide services to the women and the children who need their help and support.

I'm proud to report, Madam Speaker, that expenditures to Osborne House have tripled between 1983-84 and 1986-8 7, tripled from $315 ,000 to approximatly $900 ,000 .00. However, Madam Speaker , no one on this side of the House would be naive enough to suggest that making house hold improv ements to Osborne Hous e should be any substitute for a well­ thought-out and comprehensive strategy to dealing with the issue of wife abuse.

Tha t is why in 1986 , in response to community pressure stemming from the front-line workers who deal with the issue of viol ence against each woman on a daily basis, we set up new programs to expand our base of support for ser vices in th is area. 1559 Madam Speaker, while the women of Mani toba have a long way to go before viol ence in their homes will

Friday, 1 May, 1987 no longer be a threat, they are at least able to benefit from a much wider and more comprehensiv e net of services and supports than were provided by members opp osite in their term of office. This government, Madam Speaker, has increased funding for these services by over 700 percent since 1983 . Twenty-two community committees , the majority of which are operating in rural Manitoba , have been funded to provide non-residential wife abuse services such as crisis lines, referral and support work.

The Pas, Brandon and Thompson have been operating crisis shelters in their communities since 1981, and smaller satellite shelters now operate in place like Dauphin and Steinbach. Let me say, Madam Speaker , since members opposite don't seem to always have these facts at their fingertips , let me list some of the government's recent initiatives in dealing with wife abuse to date. I say this, not saying we solved the whole problem or boasting in any way, but simply to indicate that we have worked. We believe very, very strongly, in the need to act in this area.

We are working very hard to put in place programs that meet those needs. I say that in full respect of the fact that many women are still in very precarious situations. It's for that reason that we sit today at a time, in about 20 minutes, when another vigil will occur on the front steps of our Legislature. Madam Speaker, on behalf of the Manitoba Committee on Wife Abuse .

I think all of us grieve when another incidence of violence occurs, when another woman is murdered, when another death occurs, because we have not yet been able to totally eradicate violence and abuse against women in our society, but the plan has been mapped out and steps are being taken on a daily basis to begin to deal with those issues.

Let me ment ion funding for EVOLVE, a treatment program for batterers, their partners and children; a second-stage housing program which provides women and children with social housing program which provides women and children with socia l housing as they make the transition after leaving an abusive relationship; a wife abuse unit in the Public Safety Building which provides referral services and crisis follow-up for victims of wife abuse; funding for the Ma Mawi-Wi-Chi -ltata Agency to begin plans on a native family violence program; and a fee waiver program so shelter fees are covered for women who cannot afford them .

While I'm on this topic , Madam Speaker, I would like to respond briefly to the remarks made by the Member for Kirkfield Park, who went to great lengths to describe what she saw when she visited Osborne House. I'm sure that for some of her honourable colleagues , who may have been listening , a description of the rooms at Osborne House was educational , but the problems that exist at Osborne House, Madam Speaker , are not due to the public education campa ign undertaken in 1985, which was conducted in the hopes of reducing the number of women who are abused in this province.

The other purpose - sorry, I think, Madam Speaker , I'd like to make just a minor correction. We've got to separate out the description of the situation at Osborne House with the issues that are invo lved in the facts of the matter, and I think we need to look at the importance of the programs that I've just mentioned, as well as the public education campaign that was taken in 1985. 1560 The comments made by the MLA , and I quote, she said: " I will tell you, if I was in that house , maybe the abuse would look better than the quarters that I had to live in there .

That's what happens to them, they go back early because they can 't stand the surroundings ." To me, Madam Speaker, those remark s show lack of understanding of the problems as well as to the solutions that need to be put in place to solve this very complex probl em. It's som ewhat insulting, Madam Speaker , to women who have been in abusive situations and who need to have real opt ions presented to them for violence that has been going on for years and years and years.

We're committed, Madam Speaker, to continuing to provide a variety of services and supports to women who are vict ims of wife abuse in this province , and we'll continue to consul t wit h members of the community and those who are providing those vital services in order to continue to identify and implement strategies to deal with this very critica l issue for the women of Manitoba .

And I look for ward, through the passage of this legislation, Madam Speaker , to be reinforced in our efforts to carry on in this regard and to work with members opposite and to work with the Advisory Council to find ways to keep making improvements in this area. Madam Speaker , let me conclude by saying that the council has an incredibly challenging and major job ahead of it as it works to deal with an ever-present situation in our society of inequality that has changed little in statistical terms over the last number of years.

We are looking for advice from the counc il on a number of very important policy areas that will help change that situation, and move us firmly in the direct ion of equality. And we look forward to the council 's creative and constructive responses and critiques to our pol icy endeavours in the areas of child care and wife abuse and pay equity and affirmative action, and so on and so forth. And we look forward to receiving from the council , recommendations and policies and reports on areas that have yet to be explored and yet to be addressed from the point of view of policy development .

One of the most recent issues mentioned in this House in that regard is the whole area of reproductive technology and some of the frightening and very scary possibilities that are coming out of developments in that area . I think all of us need to be wary of those issues and we need to work together to find some meaningful and creative solutions to some yet undefined policy areas . Madam Speaker , I hope , based on members' comments opposite , that they will be supporting this bill. I hope that they will be joining with us in our attempts to redress inequality wherever it may exist in our society.

On behalf of all of my colleagues , I look forward to working with the Advisory Council in its newly established , well-entrenched role within our society . Thank you , Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Kirkfield Park . MRS. G. HAMMOND: Would the Minister enterta in a question? MADAM SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Kirkfield Park with a question.

Friday, 1 May, 1987 MRS. G. HAMMOND: Yes, I just wanted to ask the Minister if the government was planning new facilities for Osborne House? HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Madam Speaker, I've indicated in my remarks that the funding for Osborne House has increased dramatically since members of this side of the House were in government. My colleague, the Minister responsible for Community Services, has also mentioned that there will be further developments in the whole area of shelters that meet the needs of women in abusive and violent situations throughout Manitoba.

I am confident that the Minister for Community Services will be, in due course , providing details and information about her intentions for improving services in this area. MADAM SPEAKER: The question before the House is Second Reading of Bill No. 3. QUESTION put, MOTION carried. BILL NO. 4 - THE RE-ENACTED STATUTES OF MANITOBA, 1987 ACT MADAM SPEAKER: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Attorney-General , Bill No. 4, standing in the name of the Honourable Member for St. Norbert. The Honourable Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Could you leave it standing in the Member for St .

Norbert's name, and would I be able to speak on the bill at this time? MADAM SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have leave to speak then at this time , and to leave it standing in the Member for St. Norbert 's name? (Agreed) The Honourable Member for Gladstone then. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you, Madam Speaker, and thank you to the House for granting leave. I'm pleased to speak today on this Bill No. 4, The Re-enacted Statutes of Manitoba, 1987 Act, and to put on the record some of my concerns with the re­ enactment of the statutes and some of the problems concerning them.

Reading from a leaflet put out by the Attorney­ General, I think - correct me if I'm wro ng, Madam Speaker - but I believe it was put out at the time that the bill was circulated o r perhaps when it was introduced. It's called , "The Validation of Manitoba 's Laws" and, under the heading of "Statutes," it says, and I quote : "With the passag e of Bill 4, The Re­ enacted Statutes of Manitoba Act , approximately 85 percent of the continuing consolidation of the Statutes of Manitoba, (the C.C.S.M.) will be reacted or repealed.

The remaining 15 percent will either be dealt with separately during the current Session or will be introduced in the next Session.

All the laws of Manitoba contained in this CCSM will either be re-enact ed or be ready for re-enactm ent next year, well before the period of temporary validity est ab lished by the Supreme Cour t expires on Decem ber 31, 1988 ." With that in mind , Madam Speaker , and thinking of the long lists of statutes to be re-enacted, I have of 1561 course some grave concerns of some of the statutes themselves, but I don't intend to start out on a lengthy debate of all the 300-and-whatever statutes this morning .

I'm more concerned with the physical aspect of printing the statutes and, in this address that I'm going to give this morning , many of the bills of course that are being re-enacted, I wonder , if we really got busy in this House and debated them, how many of them would pass. I have concerns that probably on both sides of the House there would be lively debate and many of the bills would probably fail to pass this House . But having said that, of course, I will not get into debating each and every bill, which wou ld be impossible in the time alloted to me.

I will , as I say, direct my thoughts more to the procedure of printing them than of the statutes themselves. I would like to remark, however , that some people have said that probably it might have been a good idea if all the statutes had been declared invalid , and then we could start again and pass laws and perh aps a lot fewer laws. In fact , I was at a gathering, I believe in 1983 or 1984, perhaps early in that year, when we were debating the French languag e issue.

A speaker on a podium look ed down at me and said perhaps, you know, it wou ld be a good idea if you persisted in this and they declared all the laws invalid. We have far too many laws, and I tend to agree with him . I think if we keep on passing laws, we tend to be overgoverned. And it would be impossible of course to debat e them all again and to start from scratch .

There is that area of time when they would be invalid and then we'd have nothing to govern us, so it's necessary of cour se to have laws to regu late us in health care, education , highways , human rights, all the things that are important to us in Man itoba and affect our lives, of course, our everyday live s. But the subject I wish to address as I said before, Madam Speaker , is the physical aspect of reprinting and publishing the statutes. In Hansard of March 11 on page 282 when the bill came before the House and was introduced for Second Reading , the Member for St .

Norbert asked the Attorney-General, and I'll quote his question : "Could the Attorney-General confirm that the format of the statutes was put forward by the government, and there I'm specifically referring to the fact that the English and French are both on one page, that the format of the printing of the statutes was put forward to the Supreme Court by his government?" Whereupon the Attorney-General answered and I quote: "Yes, Madam Speaker , we clearly looked at what would be the least costly and legally the most effective way of presenting the statutes , and we came to conclusion that the double-column format, as is used by the Government of Canada , would in fact be the least expensive of what is a fairly expens ive - well, a very expensive - printing endeavour ." And he went on to talk about the advice they received from the Supreme Court.

Of course, the advice received from the Supreme Court was the advice they had asked for from the Supreme Court. The Member for St. Norbert asked a further question, and I quote: "Can the Attorney-General confirm tha t, in the Province of Quebec , they have sepa rat e English and French statutes, so that if someone wishes to purchase a set of statutes they can purchase either

Friday, 1 May, 1987 the French or the English?" And the Attorney-General, in reply to that question, answered: " Yes, that is the way they print the statutes in the Province of Quebec. They have been doing so for some considerable time, and I would suggest that possibly that is the route that should have been taken in this province ." I conte nd that the Attorney-General , when he discusses the cost , is looking at this in isolation. He's discuss ing the cost of actually looking at it in the narrow vein of just printing the statutes initially.

He hasn 't looked back to see what has been done and how they're done now , nor is he looking forward to the cost that he will be incurring. He hasn 't considered the fact that every municipal office , every law office , every MLA 's office, most libraries , and many, many oth er facilities and offices in this province already have copies of statutes printed in, I might say, very attractive tartan binders with the Manitoba tartan, a very familiar-looking book in any rural municipal office and , of course , in my own office and various other offices throughout the province. Copies are there .

The amendments can be added once a year or depending on how active we are in the Legislature passing laws and regulations. These can just be added to the binders that already exist and are placed on the shelves of the offices. So I think this is an unnecessary change that is being made to the format in that the books that we are told are going to be used now, in order to encompass the bilingual format, are going to be tall books , much larger than the present binders. So you get into not just the cost of printing and publishing. You get away from the cost of paper and everything else.

You get the cost of the binders, which must be rather excessive and which are already in place, as I say. The shelving is there. In many cases, the shelving is built to directly conform to the size of those binders . Madam Speaker, my concern is not with the language in which they are printed in, whether they are in French or English or whether or not who wants access to them, because I'm not saying that we cannot have access to the language of our choice .

I think it's very important that people be aware that they can have their choice of language and I think, if the statutes were printed in separate books, no problem. If a municipality wanted to have two sets, they can go to that expense if they wish, instead of having this forced upon them. My intention with these remarks is to point out that the format of presenting them is causing the province to spend money it doesn't need to spend. It inflicted this upon itself. The book size is awkward and many people have objected to this, Madam Speaker.

Many of the municipalities in th is province have signed resolutions asking that the statutes be printed in separate volumes in French and English . In fact, most of the mun ic ipal governments in my constituency, Madam Speaker, have signed petitions to that effect , and they are very concerned that they have their choice. I have in my possession copies of 89 resolutions concerning this topic , Madam Speaker . I believe there is only one of them that request that the statutes be printed in French and English.

I can quite understand why that would be so, because it happens to be a mun icipa lity in which there are great numbers of both English-speaking and French-speaking people, so it makes eminently good sense that they, perhaps , would like that. They, in turn , would not be denied access to their language by having it printed separately in French and in English. They would be able to purchase both sets, if they wished , and people would have access to them very easily.

I will read to you, Madam Speaker , the resolution from the Rural Municipality of Lakeview, which is in my constituency , and it reads and I quote: "Be it resolved that the Council of the R.M. of Lakeview requests the Province of Manitoba to publish separate vol umes of the Statu tes of Mani toba in English and in French for use by Manitoba municipalities ," a very straightforward resolution , Madam Speaker . They noted their concern by the very fact that they sent in the resolution.

That resolution, Madam Speaker , is consistent with many others , with most others in this package of resolutions which I have , and which I believe was forwarded to the Attorney-General by the President of the Union of Municipali t ies . I might add that the Attorney-General did not respond to the president by giving him an answer as to what reason or why they were doing it; in fact , he didn 't respond , period.

This leads me to wonder , Madam Speaker , and immediately draw the conclusion that, if these municipal people are sending this resolution and these were dated , of course, some of them in October, various dates in 1986, and it seems apparent that a decision had been made at that time. Before that time , I'm wondering if the Attorney-General or others from the NOP Government or some of the Attorney-General's staff could not have consulted with the Union of Municipalities to see what they would prefer. They are one of the major users of these statutes.

It might have been courteous at least to mention to them that they were considering this. It seems , in all likelihood , Madam Speaker, that the only people who this government consulted with was the Society Franco-Manit oban, who they negotiated with and came up with this format and then requested the Supreme Cou rt to authorize it .

So I have no indication, Madam Speaker - I would stand to be corrected if that is wrong - but I have no indication that there was any consultation with any other group to discuss this in a rational way, to see how the province would be best served by this re-enactment and by this reprinting of statutes. No one else seemed to have any input into it, except this government and Society Franco-Manitoban and , of course , I would realize that they would talk with them .

I'm not saying that they shouldn 't have, but I'm saying that they should have also spoken with others because there are other people who have great concerns on this topic . It's just another example, of course, Madam Speaker, of how this government fails to consult with people. They talk about being a consultative , caring government and, time and again , we are faced with the fact that is not quite so. They have not consulted . We had another example of it just th is very morning over the licence plates, for instance .

We deduce d from the Minister of Highways ' answers to the Member fo r Minnedosa that there was no consultation with police forces and others over the licence plates . We are forced to come to the conclusion that they were told after the fact, which in many cases, Madam Speaker , is what 1562

Friday, 1 May, 1987 this government does, this government who will tell you, on one hand, that they consult and, on the other, they tell people after they have come to the decision. They are not ones to change their mind in the face of reasoned examples of their mistakes. Lawyers, Madam Speaker, have also contacted myself and other members on this side of the House , mentioning the bilingual format of the statutes and the larger binding-causing problems . I mentioned it before, Madam Speaker, at the beginning of my remarks, that it would be a problem with the shelving.

This may seem to be a small item , but many offices of this province who will be affected by this do not consid er this a small item . Some of their offices are very crowded. I think members of the Opposition could attes t to the fact that our offices are very crowded and shelving is at a minimum. I'm sure tha t many law office s are the same . They've constru cted their shelving needs to suit the law books that they will be using and the statutes they'll be using , and these reconstruction costs may very well be very substantia l.

So here again , we have a government that's adding to the cost of doin g business in this province , and actually , Madam Speaker , adding to the cost of their own administration and their own business . Now I mentioned before, Madam Speak er, tha t the Atto rne y-General had circulated a paper with the introduction of Bill No. 4, and I finally found it among my notes. I quoted the statement about the statutes and , on the other side , it has several questions and answers which the Attorney-General 's staff, I suppose, anticipated would be legitimate questions that peopl e would ask about this.

In No.4 , for instance , the question is: " Will the format of the new re-enacted laws be different?" Then , of course, the answer : "The re-enacted statutes will be on a larger, letter-size page in dual-column format with English and French versions side by side . The Manitoba Gazette will appear in the new larger format; it'll be compatible with the new version of the CCSM." The re we have it, Madam Speaker . The Attorney -Gen eral has stated this in the information he has put out, too late maybe for anything to be done abou t it, but in any case we still will be raising our objection to this matter.

Another question that was asked in this questionnaire format was: "Has the Federal Governmen t assisted the province in meeting its constitutional obligations?" And the answer was : "Yes, the Federal Government has, for the last two years, assisted the Provincial Government in meeting the cost of the re-enactment of the laws. Financial support has been offered as a contribution to the overall cost of the translation and review .

In 1985-86, the contribution was $300,000.00 ." I find, Madam Speaker, that is in conflict to a statement which I received from the Legislative Libra ry, entitled : "The validation of Manitoba's Laws, a

summary of departmental activity ." On page 2 of that document, it states and I quote: " We have received support from the Federal Government in the order of $400,000 last year, and we anticipate a similar amount this year," meaning 1986 . This was published in 1986 , received at the Legislative Library on August 20 of 1986 . I go on to quote , it says: "Support for other aspects of the plan is being discussed with the Federal Government." I think perhap s it would have been wise , Madam Speaker, if the Attorney-General , in circulating this 1563 document , had given more accurate figures .

These figures came from his own department, of the $400,000, and I think perhaps that should be noted. It is interesting also , I should read No. 2 of the questionnaire. It says: " What laws are affected?" The answer is: "All the laws, past, present and future are affected by the decision of the Supreme Court of Canada; however, some laws, in particular some regulations, need only be made in English." I wonder which ones , Madam Speaker, and why. So perhaps the Attorney-General, when he is summing up the debate on this bill, perhaps we would get an answer for that.

Well, Madam Speaker, I will be speak ing on this subject again in the res olution that I have before the House at a later date. The res olution that I introduced and is addressed on Bill 4 is not intended in any way to inhibit the ability of peopl e to have the statutes in the language of their choice. It's only a sensible approach to the topic , tak ing in the aspect of the cost and the inconvenience to the peopl e, a cost and inc onvenience that may not, to some, be of any great import , but I think, Mad am Speake r, it is of some imp ort.

When people take the troub le to send resolutions, when they take trouble to write letters , when they take the trouble to phone members on this side of the House and , no doubt - I have no way of knowin g, of course - many pho ne calls and letters go to the oth er side of the Hous e abo ut it too. So I think with that , Madam Speaker , I will conclude my remark s as I will have opportun ity to speak on this again when I introduce my resolution. Thank you. MADAM SPEAKER: The proposed Bill No. 4 will stand in the name of the Honourable Mem ber for St. Norbert.

On the proposed motion of the Hono urable Attorney­ Ge neral, Bill No . 5, standing in the name of the Hono urable Member for Fort Garry. MR. C. BIRT: Stand. MADAM SPEAKER: Stand. On the proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Government Services, Bill No. 6, standing in the name of the Honou rable Member for La Verendrye. MR. H. PANKRATZ: Stand. MADAM SPEAKER: Stand . BILL NO. 11 - THE CHANGE OF NAME ACT MADAM SPEAKER: On the proposed motion of the Honourabl e Minister of Community Ser vices, Bill No. 11, standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

I have studied the bill , and the changes I made in this piece of legislation will ensure that the bill complies with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Some of the changes were proposed by the Chart er of Rights and Coalition and the Uniform Law Conference for Canada. The bill make s it easier to change a child's name in the case of adoptions or certain marital statu s of the

Friday, 1 May, 1987 parent. Rather than a period of one year, processing a change of name will now be accomplished in three months, includin g cha nge of name for adoption . Consent must be sought from the other parent or othe r persons affec ted so that change of name cannot occur until such a time as reasonable time has elapsed to gain consent. If consent it not granted , then of cou rse a decision will be made through the courts. Consideration in change of name is given to the person or parent who has custody of the child. An appeal process is in place so that refusal can be decided through the courts .

Who may apply? Any person who is 18 or more years of age or has been married or is a parent with custody of a child and has resided in the province for at least three months immediately preced ing the date of application may make appl ication to the director for a change of name. A parent may apply to change the name of any children who are in his or her custody with the written consent of the other parent who has custody or on notice by registered or certified mail to the parent who does not have custody.

An application to change the name of a child 12 years of age and over requires the written consent of the child. Where an Order of Guardianship has been made in respect of a child, application to change the name of the child may be made by the agency where there is a permanent order or by the agency with the consent of the parents where the order is temporary , or by the guardian with the consent of the parents . A person who has been served with notice under

section 4 may, within 28 days of receipt of the notice, apply to the court for an order directing the director not to register the change of name on the grounds that the change would not be in the best interests of the child. Obtaining a change of name by fraud or misrepresentation, use of a name obtained by fraud or misrepresentation, use of a name after refusal or annulment, all of these things would carry a penalty of $2 ,000.00. So this , Madam Speaker, would ensure that fraud ' and fraudulent methods and changes which would be a misrepresentation of names and so on, which can cause difficulty, all of these things do carry a

summary conviction of $2,000.00. This would more or less ensure that fraudulent attempts would not be made. Madam Speaker , I have studied this bill and, unless somebody else wishes to speak to the bill, I would be prepa red to let this bill go to committee. QUESTION put, MOTION carried . MADAM SPEAKER: On the proposed moti on of the Honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs, Bill No. 18., standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Riel. MR. G. DUCHARME: Stand .

MADAM SPEAKER: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Attorney-General , Bill No. 19, standing in the name of the Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Stand. MADAM SPEAKER: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Attorney-General, Bill No. 20, standing in the name of the Honourable Member for St. Norbert . MR. G. MERCIER: Stand. MADAM SPEAKER: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Attorney-General , Bill No. 21 , standing in the name of the Honourable Memb er for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Stand.

MADAM SPEAKER: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Natural Resources, standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Emerson . MR. A. DRIEDGER: Stand. MADAM SPEAKER: The will of the House is to call it 12:30 p.m.? (Agreed) The hour being 12:30 p.m. , the House is now adjourned and stands adjourned till 1:30 p.m . on Monday next. 1564