LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL V OF MANITOBA Monday, 4 May, 1981 Time - 8:00 p.m. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPL V SUPPLY- NORTHERN AFFAIRS MR. CHAIRMAN, Morris McGregor (Virden): Call the Commit tee to order. We're on 3.(b)(3) - the Member for Ste. Rose. MR. A.R. (P ete) ADAM: I wanted to ask the Mi nister. We spoke about constables for the rural areas, remote areas and I was wondering are cars supp lied for these people or do they have to purchase their own car. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Mi nister. HON. DOUG GOURLA V (Swan River): No, cars are not supplied. MR.

ADAM: I wonder if the Mi nister could tell us just how much are they paid for the use of their automobi les, the mi leage and their per diem or the method of payment. MR. GOURLA V: They are paid at the government rate mi leage. MR. ADAM: Are they restricted to mileage where they can operate? MR. GOURLAV: In some cases one constable serves more than one commun ity and so the mileage would be extended over the total area that he serves. MR. ADAM: Do they have to have special insurance coverage with their automobil es.

Su pposing somebody is arrested or something and brought into a car, what type of insurance do they have on their automobiles. Is there any special . . . MR. GOURLAV: The y'd be req uir ed to have business insurance. MR. ADAM: I beg your pardon? MR. GOURLAV: They' d be requi red to have business coverage. MR. ADAM: Just business coverage. Is that what they say, the City of Winn ipeg - no special category for that kind of occupation? You know if there was to be a high, wild chase somewhere; you have cases where guys are nightlighting and they run into you and they try and get away and all this kind of stuff.

I was just wondering if they had a special category that they were in. MR. GOURLAV: If you're referring to the City of Winnip eg, I'm not sure. The city would have their own vehicles. MR. ADAM: I'm just using that as a comparison for the rural areas. I'm not sure what are the R.C.M.P , do they have a special coverage, because I think they do work closely with the R.C. M. P.? In fact sometimes, Mr. Chairman, they work together, my understanding is. MR. GOURLAV: So rry I didn't catch your last question. MR.

ADAM: You know they do work with the R.C.M .P. on some occasion, they work very closely in co-operation with them. MR. GOURLAV: Yes, yes they do. MR. ADAM: it's just a point that I raised and I wasn't sure just what kind of insurance coverage there was if people were apprehended or arrested and brought in and if they had special - however, that's fine if the Mi nister hasn't got any information on that or he can maybe . . . MR. GOURLA V: Well they would be required to have business insurance.

The amount of liabili ty, I would presume that the Police Commission would make a recommendation to the constables but I am only assuming that. MR. ADAM: Are uniforms supplied as well or do they have to purchase their own? MR. GOURLA V: Those un iforms are supplied to the constables. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(b)(3) - pass; 3.(c)(1) - pass; 3.(c)(2) - pass; 3.(c)(3) - pass - the Member for Rupertsland. MR. HARVEV BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, perhaps the Mini ster could outline the list of local services which are provided through the operations of his

section and the fundin g of each specific type of service. MR. GOURLAV: The increase this year is $140,000 and broken down; sewer and water maintenance is up some $23,000 from last year; int ernal road ma in tena nce is up $26,000; generat ing plant maintenance is up $20,000; and we have just have a replacement plant to be used wherever it might be needed, it's $20,000; yard maintenance in Dauphin, $50,000; equipment for operation maintenance is up $1,000, from $49,000 last year to $50,000 this year. MR. BOSTROM: Could the Minis ter list the amount budgeted for each service? MR. GOURLAV: Oka y.

Sewer and water maintenanc e, $120,000; internal road maintenanc e, $125,000; generating plant maintena nce, $50,000; a new plant replacement, $20,000; yard maintenance at Dauphin, $50,000 and equipment for operation and ma in tenanc e is $50,000; for a tota l of $415,000.00. MR. ADAM: Does that include all the road maintenance in these areas? Is there anything for 3315

Monday, 4 May, 1981 roads there and maintenance for that or does that come under construction? MR. GOURLA V: This money for road maintenance is for the Dauphin area, 150 miles between the various communi ties that we are responsible for and any major problems that may come up during the year. MR. ADAM: Could we get a breakdown of that as well? Do you have a breakdown on the region, like the breakdown in the region? MR. GOURLAY: That make up the 150 miles in the Dauphin area? MR. ADAM: Yes. How much is the figure for that, $150,000.00? MR. GOURLAV: $125,000.00. MR. ADAM: $125,000 for 150 miles. MR.

GOURLAV: That covers sno wplou gh ing, maintenance, gravelling and any major problems that might occur. MR. ADAM: Do you have a breakdown, Mr . Chairman, of where this work is going to take place? MR. GOURLA V: We can supply you with a map showing it. MR. ADAM: That will be fine, if you could show us. MR. GOURLAV: We don't have it here, but we can supply that to you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Rupertsland, if the Member for Ste. Rose is finished. MR.

BOSTROM: I note that the expenditur e per mile is somewhat less than that usually budgeted by the Department of Hig hways for road maintenance and winter clear ning of highways. Can the Min ister ind icate what is the reason for that? Is there a lower standard of maintenance and snowploughing? MR. GOURLAV: A numb er of the roads are a narrower type road. They don't require as much maintenance as some of the other PAs or Provincial Trunk Hi ghways, for instance. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. George. MR. BILLIE URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, this amount in terms of road main tenance of $125,0 00 as the Min ister ind icated the Dauphin region, what about the other areas of the province in terms of road maintenance in the Northern Affairs areas? Does that include those areas as well, that $125,000.00? MR. GOURLA V: No. Just in the Dauphin area we have roads between com muni ties that are the responsibili ty of Northern Affairs, where the other regions they're picked up by the province, they're through highways or the like. These are connecting roads that serve between communi tie s that are assigned to Northern Affairs to be responsible. MR.

URUSKI: These roads then would be where your own department has equipment and staff that 3316 do the maintenance, or do you still contract out with highways as you would for example, in Dallas, Red Rose, a commu nity commi ttee where hig hways would do the snowploug hing, the grad ing and the maintenance through those areas? Would this be the dif ference that you are ind ica ting? Is this the difference? MR. GOURLA V: Actually Hi ghways do most of the maintenance on these roads on behalf of Northern Affairs but they're charged to Northern Affairs. MR. URUSKI: Then, Mr.

Chairman, why would you have a budget in Northern Affairs for the roads showing maintenance in one area of the province and you would not have that shown in other areas? Why the difference? MR. GOURLA V: In the case of the Dauphin area, they're inter-linking roads, they're not desig nated roads, PAs or the like. They are the responsibility of Northern Affairs in that they differ and that other areas of the province, they would be Provincial Trunk Hig hways, Provincial Roads and are admin istered under the Department of Hi ghways. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chai rman, where would the budgets be for example for road maintenance for the community of Pine Dock, Matheson Island and Dallas Red Rose, which are in the northern end of the lnterlake? Where would one question or see your budge t specifically for road maintenance in those areas? MR. GOURLA V: In those areas they would be handled under the commu nities' budget. They would be within the communi ties as such and would be handled through the commun ity budge ts to look after those internal roads. MR. URUSKI: That would be un der the Local Government in your estimates. MR.

GOURLAV: You are wondering where they show? MR. URUSKI: Yes, where do they show in your estimates? MR. GOURLAV: That would be 3.(b)

(3) Commu nity Current Funding, under current communi ty funding. We just finis hed those areas. MR. URUSKI: Are you talking ab out Local Government Services, Commu nity Operations? MR. GOURLAV: Yes. MR. URUSKI: Okay. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: I wonder if the Min ister could give us an example of the difference, why the Department of Northern Affairs is doing some of the work, and Hi ghways. We know that most of the staff was transferred from Northern Affairs to Hi ghways, a year ago or two years ago, and we still see somt:l of the work being done here, and I am wondering if the

Monday, 4 May, 1981 Mini ster could gi ve us an example of some commun ities. Would this be inside of a commun ity itself? MR. GOURLAY: No, they would be connecting roads between the com mun ities; I think the best way I could describe it is that they would be similar to a muni cipal road . The y are so mewhat belo w the standard of a provincial road and they fall under the jurisdiction of Northern Affairs being the overall mun icipal body covering those areas. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(c)(3) - pass - the Mem ber for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: Could the Mi nister give us an example of one of these roads somewhere?

Let's say the community of Mallard, I'll help you; there's a road from Waterhen to Mallard. Are we involved in that or is that Hi ghways? MR. GOURLAY: In your particular constituency, the roads within the Crane River area are a community responsi bility but roads that lead from Crane River into some of the ranching commun ities that are removed from the communi ty are the responsibili ty of the Department of Northern Affairs, those types of roads. But we will give you a map showing the roads in the Dauphin area that would be maintained under this item. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 3.(cX3)- pass; 3.(dX 1) (a)- pass the Member for Rupertsland. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, on this perhaps the Mi nister could ind icate what he's referring to under Mun icipal Sup port Services, Canada -Ma nitob a Northern Devel opment Agreement. What these moneys are budgeted for? MR.

GOURLAY: This is the developed printing resou rce materials which dir ect ly sup port the development of local government uni ts; direct the taking and compilation of commun ity census within the Northern Affairs commu nities every three years; carry out the functions of the principle electoral officer and maintains a departmental library. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(d)(1) (a) - pass; 3.(d)(1) (b) - pass; 3.(d)(1) (c)-pass; 3.(e)- pass - the Mem ber for Rupertsland. MR. BOSTROM: Yes. Could the Mini ster itemize the list of grants that are proposed here and budg eted for the year? Could you list the amounts too, please? MR.

GOURLAY: Native commun ications,- $1 02,600; No rthern Asso ciation of Commun ity Councils, $181 ,000; and then there's the supplement to tax sharing, an adjustment where the commun ities and the population statistics, Canada Census figures vary. Th ey're considerably un der what the communi ties have and we do our own census there. We make an adjustment payment and we've allowed $16,2 00 in that area. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(

e) the Member for Rupertsland. MR. BOSTROM: What about the per capita grants that are made to communi ties? Where does that come? 3317 MR. GOURLAY: That's und er the Department of Finance. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(e) - pass.

Be it resolved that there be grante d to Her Ma jesty a sum no t exceeding $3,975,200 for Northern Affairs - pass. 4.(a)(1) - pass- the Member for Rupertsland. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, again could the Mi nister indi cate what the responsibili ties are in this

section and what the items are budgeted for? MR. GOURLAY: Mr. Chairman, this is management of the Northern Development Agreement in terms of programming, expenditure allocation, monitoring and also preparation of progress and evaluation reports, the management requirements and other associated tasks relating to the maintenance of the Northern Agreement. MR. BOSTROM: Does the Mini ster have a copy of the No rthern Development Agreement, which is available to the members of the Opposition? MR. GOURLA Y: This is on the new . . . No, these are not available. MR. BOSTROM: When will they be available? MR.

GOURLA Y: As soon as the necessary signa tures are obtained for their approval. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, has the Mi nister not made it possible for the people who are to affected by the agreement to have some discussion as to the items that are contained within the agreement and why should there be a secrecy about the agreement to the point where it would not be possible for him to make a copy available so others will know what there is being signed? MR.

GOURLAY: There's been the consultation process enabling the people to put the activities, proposals together; we have sub mitted this to the Federal people for their approval; they are sitting on it at the present time and there may be further negotiations required but they have not come back to us at this point to say that they are going to go along with it all. MR.

BOSTROM: Who has subm itted proposals and, of the proposals that have been submi tted by the various organizations, can the Mi nister indic ate if they have found their way into the agreement in the way of concrete proposals to be signed as part of the ongoing agreement? MR. GOURLA Y: The various group s that were prepared to submit proposals and discuss the issues, they have been considered, and in most cases there was a lot of consensus on the various items. These have been rolled into the various activity areas and wi th, of course, emp hasis being on eco nomic development and employment-type projects.

This is what has been sub mitted for approval to the Federal people. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, can the Mi nister indi cate what are the general activities that will be

Monday, 4 May, 1981 funded, or is proposed to be funded through the Northern Development Agreement, as it's called now, and perhaps if he cannot supply us with a copy of the agreement he can outline the specific program activit ies that are to be contained within the proposed agreement. MR. GOURLA V: In general terms I can say that, for the most part, the agreement contains a lot of the same areas that was in the previous Northlands Agreement with further thrust being di rected to employment and economic development. MR.

BOSTROM: Can the Mini ster ind icate the new thrusts in those areas of economic development and employment? What new and in novative programs is he proposin g to have funde d through this new Northern Development Agreement? MR. GOURLA V: I think it would be very difficult for me to elaborate specifically on those areas because we have no assurance at this time that the Federal people will agree to it and it certainly would, I think, jeopardize the final ization of the agreement to make known some of these areas and then subsequently find that the Federal people are not in agreement with it. MR. BOSTROM: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I find it curious to hear the Mi nister's explanation because really I would think that most of the items which are in the proposed Northern Developme nt Ag reement are contained somewhere or other in thi s Estimates Book, that is, they are broken down into various departments and we have comple ted th e examination of most of the estimates by now.

We have completed the exa mination of certainly those departments that could be in any way described as develop mental departments, whether it's the Department of Economic Development or it's the Department of Mines or the Department of Natural Resources, Agriculture, Labour and Manpower, and in each of those, Mr.

Chairman, at least the ones I was able to attend, I asked the Mi nister responsible for each if they could outline to me any new and inno vative programs that they were bringing in in the area of economic development and emplo yment because if there is an area that we have been most disappointed in this government, Mr. Chairman, as far as the north is concerned, it is in those areas of employment and economic development.

The government has seen fit to reduce or elimi nate mo st of the programs that were geared for employment and economic development that were in place when they took office and I am asking the Mini ster if he can outline now and point out to us in his department alone, if he can point out any new and inno vative programs. I see a couple in here, Mr. Chairman, that are the old programs; they are not new.

I see the Agreements Management and Co­ ordi nation; the Northern Flood Agreement which appears to have some money coming back from Canada; the Special ARDA Agreement, which is not a new program appears to have some money coming back from Canada, I assume it's under the Northern Development Agreeme nt; I see Ac qui sition/ Construction of Physical Assets has some moneys under this agreement; I see the Canada-Manitoba Northern Development, a lump sum there of $20 million-plus in this agreement.

I would ask the Mi nster if he could even be specific enough with this department to ind icate to us what are the new and in novative programs in tho se areas of emp loyment and eco nomic development. Further to that, I don't think it should be that difficult for him since he's the Mini ster responsible for the Northern Development Agreement, to ind icate in a specific way each of those new and inno vative prog rams that are to be funded and deliv ered through other departments.

I think that we have examined some of them in the individual estim ates of the other departme nt s bu t we haven 't had an overview and I think this Mi nister should be able to give us that overview. MR. CHAIRMAN: On a point of order, the Mem ber for St. George. MR. URUSKI: I raised my hand a while ago and 1 was deli berately watching the Mem ber for Roblin, he raised his hand and you called him. Mr. Chairman, if the Mi nister is not prepared to answer the Member for Rupertsland then I think you should follow the order of the members that have raised their hands. MR.

CHAIRMAN: On the point of order the Chair has tried to be reasonably fair to go from one side to the other. I may have missed on occasion but I think very seldom does the Chair recognize a member from the gov ernment side and the Mem ber for Roblin did catch my eye. I may have mentally recognized the Member for St. George and lost it but I did recognize the Member for Roblin and I think if the Chair has not been fair there is one way of changing the Chair. The Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE: I don't want to annoy the Honorable Member for St. George, I'll waive my rights and let him speak first. HON. JAMES E.

DOWNEV (Arthur): On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I think you were correct in recognizing the Member for Roblin because he was in fact prepared to speak and I think you're correct that alternating makes good debate and a good examination of the Estimates. MR. CHAIRMAN: I'm not sure if that would be recognized as the House directing the Chair and 1 hope that not be accepted that way. I recognize the Member for St. George in that case. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, the Mi nister has been vague or less than vague in terms of providing information with respect to the proposed agreement, the Northern Deve lopment Agreem ent. Can the Mi nister ind icate what areas have there been general agreements on that programs will either continue? Can you at least ind icate where there is agreement and unanimity between the two levels of government in setting out the terms of the agreement? Where are you agreed upon and what can we take for granted in terms of programming in terms of the proposals here? Where are we in agreement on? MR. GOURLAV: Well, Mr.

Chairman, it was not my intention to avoid answering the questions from the 3318

Monday, 4 May, 1981 Mem ber for Ru pertsland . I gather that other membe rs had their hands up, they wanted to comment on the same areas. With respect to the items, there are a numb er of items that are shown in the book that hope fu lly will be covered by the Canada-Manitoba Northern Development Agreement. Should they not be covered then it would be the responsibili ty of the Provincial Government to pick up that 100 percent funding.

New programs that are not spelled out of course are shown in the Enabling Vote and I can't be specific on those programs at the present time because they may not be agreed to by the federal people and we do have to share some confidentiality between the two major partners in this program in that we have sub mitted the package to the federal people; they have not seen fit to sign it yet and if they di sagree with many of the new in itiatives then the province may or may not go ahead with those programs.

However those programs that are listed and shown in the Estimates, hopefully they'll be cost-shared but if they are not then the province will be on the hook for 100 percent of those programs. MR. CHAIRMAN: I'm not sure if the Member for Roblin still wants his . . . The Member from Roblin. MR. McKENZIE: Wel l, Mr. Chairman, I've been listening to the questions raised in the House of Commons for the last several months, especially on matters of economic development in Canada. Up to know I haven't heard anything coming out of Ottawa from the Minis ter of Finance, Mr.

MacEachen on econ omic dev elopment, infla tion, int erest rates , unemployment. Maybe I'm not listening at the right time but I'm wondering, on the agreements that are bei ng negotia ted no w between the Federal government an d the province, and that involv es Northern Affairs, Me di care, Post-S econdar y Education, RCMP services, there's a long laundry list of these programs, if the Mi nister in this case, or the other Mini sters, can't come to an agreement with the federal people on the sharing of these dollars then the event would be we'll have to cut back. Am I correct in that? MR.

GOURLAY: Well I think, Mr. Chairman, that's true. We list certain programs that are underway; we want them to continue. They have been cost-shared in the past; we're hoping that they'll be cost-shared in the future and we are prepared to pick up those programs 10 0 percent if necessary.

The new programs that we're discussing with Ottawa, we're not sure whether their going to be recieved or not but if they're not then we'll maybe have to drop the idea of funding those but I can honestly say that we have been constantly in touch with Honourable De Bane to get on with the agreement and he has assured us that he would be back to us this week to give us some assurance that at least the programs from the first of April till now will be cost-shared on a retractive basis but to date they've given us no such assurance on those either. Mr.

De Bane has been contacted by telex, by phone and we are wai ting to hear some thing this week as to their acceptance or non-acceptance of the proposals that they have before them at the present time. MR. McKENZIE: Can the Mini ster advise the Comm ittee has he any ind ication the other provinces are facing similar problems, Saskatchewan, Alberta? 3319 MR. GOURLA V: Our program is the first one to be renegotiated at this time and we don't have any ind ication what will happen in the other provinces.

The programs are quite a bit different in a lot of respects than what we've had in the province but we really don't have any indi cation as to how other provinces will be. MR. McKENZIE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Rupertsland. MR. HARVEY BOSTROM: I'm surpri sed that the Progressive Conservative government here is having so much trouble with Ottawa seeing how popular their First Mi nister is in Ottawa these days. The Northern Development Agreement that is referred to here, Mr.

Chairman, contains a numb er of projects as the Mini ster ind icated which they hoped to have cost-shared and those are in the Estimates.

Now can the Mini ster ind icate if any of these projects are being held up at the present time, that is, projects that communi ties are counting on to be commencing immediately or in the near future and for which funds are to be provided through various appropriations which are labelled in here as part of the Canada­ Manitoba Northern Development Agreement; can the Mini ster ind icate if any of these projects are being held up and if the commun ities are being told that the reason their projects are being held up is because they Northern Development Agreement has not been signed yet and they'll have to wait until it's signed before any moneys in the particular project that's relating to their community can be forwarded to them so that their project may begin?

MR. GOURLAY: There are a numb er of what we consider essential type programs that will have to continue. Each department looks at their own particu lar program ming as to whether feel they should be deferred until final approval from Ottawa and so it's up to the individual Mini sters but in the case of Northern Affairs programming all essential programming has been reviewed right now so that if we feel that they should continue that there will be no hold up because of funding. MR. BOSTROM: Mr.

Chairman, there appears to be a contradiction here because the Mi ni ster ju st finished explaining that if the Northern Development Agreement is not signed that the government has a commitment to spend 10 0-cent dolla rs on these particular projects .

If that is the case, if the Prog ressive Conservative go vernment here has established these as their priorities for funding and are prepared to fund them regardless of a Northern Development Agreement being signed, why would the Department of No rthern Affairs be telling commun ities that certain projects are not to proceed until the agreement is signed? lt appears to me that there are two stories coming on, one certa inly doesn't match the other. MR. GOURLAY: I think, Mr.

Chairman, in many instanc es the programs have been deferred pending the negotiations with the federal people because ob viously, with no retroactivit y clause and no agreement in place, and we pick up 100 percent funding on all the programs that are slated to go

Monday, 4 May, 1981 then the chances of those being included in the new agreement, our chances are much less than if they are being deferred until such time as an agreement is in place. But we're presently reviewing those because of the hardships or we don't want to lose time because of weather or whatever may affect those programming, to get underway with them. But at the same time we have deferred them to this point pending some ind ication from Ottawa as to what Ottawa is going to be either agreeing or disagreeing. MR. BOSTROM: Mr.

Chairman, I have a concrete example of one program or project that I referred to the Mi nister's Department just in the last few weeks and that is a Breakwater Proje ct at Princ ess Harbour.

The Mi nister twigged my mind to it when he mentioned weather considerations because, in that particular case, the commu nity had proposed to begin the project which I understand was budgeted for in the Northern Affairs Estimates, they wanted to begin the project while the ice was still on the harbour at Princess Harbour and they wanted to get the cribwork in place and have all of that work done while it was easy to do and it would be least expensiv e to do the work ; also, from the commun ity's point of view, to have it ready for the fishing season which starts June 1st.

They were told, I'm informed, that project could not proceed because the Northlands Agreement was not signed. Now, Mr. Chairman, if the department is now repriorizing the projects and ind icate at this point that they are going to go ahead with that one they are going to be hard pressed to have that project completed before the opening of fishing season.

The Mini ster talks about em ployment and economic development, and I think that he should be listening more carefully to the needs of the commun ity because in this case I think there's an example of where the communi ty, if they are consulted, can give the department the best advice as to when something can be done, both from a point of view of the weather and from the point of view of the maximum empl oyment opportun itie s for the commun ity.

There would be not much point, for example, in going in there and trying to cons t ruct th at breakwater while the fishing season is on, since most of the community mem bers are fishermen and they would be fully employed at that time.

So I throw this out to the Mini ster as one example of where it may very well be that my information is correct, that this particular project is being held up and it's in the process now of being repriorized, as the Mini ster is mentioning. 1 think there are some serious problems in terms of delivery of many of these projects if there is holdbacks on the funding so that the projects cannot proceed when it may be optimal to proceed with them. MR. GOURLA Y: The project of which you speak was budgeted for 19 8 1- 82. The community wanted to get started sooner than that.

I understand the proper design for this project was not available. I'm not sure that it's completed this time but in any case the project was not sha reable under the Northlands Agreement; it wasn't a project that was shared in any case. lt was 100 percent provincial fundin g regardless of the Agreement. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Manitoba is a province that requires federal assistance and federal cost-sharing on many many programs and requires federal transfer of payments of one sort or another.

In fact I think a large part of the revenue of the Province of Manitoba does come some way or another through federal funding. lt seems to me that we have seen a serious deterioration in the relationship between this particular government here and the Federal Government. Mr. Chairman, it's not surprising that we are seeing cutbacks on the federal level; it's not surprising that this government is having difficulty to negotia te with the Federal Government. We have seen that happen in the Department of Agriculture where there was no way you could get coordination on the funding for flooding and that.

We have seen I believe, gross federal-bashing by this government and by almost every Mi nister for the last three years, in particu lar the First Mini ster who has severely criticized the Federal Government on their deficits. He has been highly critic al of how Ottawa is managing its fin ances yet at the same time knowing that we are in a difficult position having to depend so much on federal help; we need a strong central government. We're not like the three provi nces to the west of us, Mr. Chairman. it's unfortunate that this has happened but now the Mini ster is asking us for a blank cheque.

He is saying there's moneys here in this Estimates book the Mini ster is asking for and he's asking for a blank cheque. He's saying, "I want these moneys. We're not going to tell you how it's going to be spent or what it's going to be spent on". I think the Mini ster is highly presumptuous to take that position. That's an arrogant position in my opinion. For the Mini ster to come here and say, "Gi ve me a blank cheque and I'll tell you what we're going to do with it sometime in the future, maybe", I don't think that's correct at all.

I think the Mini ster should be able to provide this committee if he's asking for money here, he should be able to tell us how this money's going to be spent. The people have a right to know how it's going to be spent. That is our role right here, right now, to question these Estima tes here, how that money's going to be spent and that's not what the Mi nister's doing, Mr. Chairman. He's saying, "Give me the money and I'll tell you later or maybe I'll never tell you". MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: 4.(a)(1) - pass. Order please. The Member for Ste. Rose in the last five minut es has been speaking.

I haven't heard him ask any questions. -(I nterjection)- Order please. Order please. I'm saying to the Member for Ste. Rose, I listened to him yery <:�ttentively, if he h<:�s some que stion s that he's seek in g inf ormation on the Esti mates, that's fine. But I heard him make a speech. I never heard him ask any questions. All right, the Honourable Mi nister. MR. GOURLAY: Mr. Chairman, the Member for Ste. Rose is indi cating that we're asking for a blank cheque, that's not true at all. We spell out the programs that we feel have to proceed whether or not we get any cost-sharing from the federal people.

The other programs that are not spelled out are shown in the Enabling Vote, provided the Agreement is signed with the federal people and I can't be any 3320

Monday, 4 May, 1981 more specific than that. If there's no agreement, there's no additional programs. There's not likely to be any additional programs. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, when I asked the Mini ster, I can see partly his dilemma of not wanting to specifically announce programs because I gather that's not protocol until there's an agreement signed, tha t any announc ement would have to have signa torie s and two Mini sters making the announcement. But surely the Mini ster can and has enough flexibility to ind icate to this comm ittee by saying, here are the areas that we are after.

We don't kn ow whether there will be cost- sharing, whether tl'lere will be agreement but here's the tenure of our present programs. We know the sewer and water and several of the other programs that are going ahead come what may, whether Ottawa ag rees to it or not, we are proceeding whether it's in this department or another department. But certainly the Mi nister should be open enough to say that these are the kinds of other things that we certainly see ourselves, see our departments, see this government as being in novative in providing programs and policies for Northern residents and Northern people.

These are the areas we would like to see cost-shared and that's generally the thrust of our negotiations in terms of the agreements. I thin k there would be enough flexibility in that so that the Mini ster would certainly not be giving away any secrets or any confidentiality that he may have between his officials and Ottawa's officials in the present negotiations. I gather - and maybe I'm misinterpreting the Mini ster wrongly - he's ind icating that we are pretty well finished our negotiating. The Agreement is pretty well wound up; we have forwarded the Agreement on for Ottawa to sign.

If that's the case then there are general areas the Mi nister should be opening up in terms of sayi ng, yes, we've done these kinds of programs that we are proceeding with regardless, and some of the areas that we are really thinking about and we would like to see are these kinds of things. Certainly the Mi nister would not be breaking protocol discussing in general terms the kinds of thrusts he would like to see in Northern Manitoba. If it doesn't come to pass he then of course has a strong case and he would have members on this side as his allies in terms of saying -(lnt erjection) ­ Well, Mr.

Chairman, the Memb er for Roblin ind icates, "Like fun he would". Mr. Chairman, if there has been serious negotiations between Manitoba and Ottawa and that there is a general feeling and a general understanding that programs will go ahead; there has been general agreement, surely the agreement that is being put forward wouldn't have been put forward for Ottawa's signature if there hadn't been some general understanding and agreement between the officials for the Mi nister's signa tories un less I misu nderstood the Mi nister's statements up until now. MR. GOURLAY: Well, Mr. Chairman, that's exactly the process.

We're in a negotiating process. For some time now the feds have had our propososals; they have not responded back to us. We're not sure that they are going to go for this package in complete detail and so it's at the Mi nister's level. The civil servants here from the federal people, they can't do anything further and we've been in touch with the Mini ster in Ottawa by telex, by telephone. Came the first of April we indi cated - will you make this retroactive to the first of April - we've had no ind ication that will happen. So this is the dilemma we're in.

Now they may come back and say we're not prepared to go for this whole package but we want to negotiate further on some areas. We're not sure they may go for the whole package or they may not but as soon as the package is signed by both parties then a joint announcement would be made and for me to say here are the things that are going to happen would be irresponsible for me to give tho se various details of activit ies that we' re negotiati ng. I can say that during the first five years of the Northlands programming I think there was some misconception that it was a highly concent rated employment package

whereas it was really more of the establishment of the infrastructure and preparing for Northern development. I think that we have over the past five years, had quite a bit of input into the northern communiti es. The next five years as we see it, is to concentrate on employment and economic development in those areas, including training and resource development and those are the general areas that I can talk about but I can't be specific because in an area where you're negotiating for one party to come out and say this is what's going to happen, invariably we'd be shot down and I think rightly so.

So, I would like to be more specific on certain areas but at this point in time we have not had any commitment back from the Federal Mi nister to say that he's prepared to go completely along with our proposals. However, he's ind icated that he'll be back to ·us this week with more information but I have not heard anything further on it, at least to date. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(a)(1) - pass; (2) - pass; (3)­ pass; (4) - pass; 4.(b)(1) - pass. The Mem ber for Rupertsland. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, perhaps the Mini ster could introduce this section. MR.

GOURLA V: This is the Management area and I can just give you briefly some of the points that's cover ed. To ma nage and co- ordina te various Canada-Manitoba and other agreements on behalf of the Mi nister of Northern Affairs in accordance with the terms and conditions spe cified with in the ag reements and the poli cy of the Provincial Government.

The agreements referred to are the Camada-Manitoba Special ARDA Agreement and the Canada-Manitoba Northern Development Agreement; also to manage and admini ster the Northern Flood Agreement in accordance with the terms and conditions specified within the agreement and the policy of the Provincial Government on behalf of the Mini ster of Northern Affairs; and to carry out the duties and responsibilities assigned to the Ind ian Land Claims Secretarial by the Indian Land Claims Subcomm ittee of Cabinet; to analyze and evaluate the impact of provincial and federal programs on the northern economy; to provide assistance to the Mini ster and Deputy Mi nister of the Department of Northern Affairs respecting the identification and co­ ordination of Provincial Government programming in 3321

Monday, 4 May, 1981 Northern Manitoba relative to meeting needs of various communi ties, group associations, individuals, and so on. MR. BOSTOM: Could the Mini ster giv e us the Status Report on the Northern Flood Agreement? What is happening with that agreement as far as the Provincial Government is concerned and what, in particular, the amount of moneys that are budgeted for the year 19 81-82, what they are budgeted to pay for? MR.

GOURLAY: Yes, un der the Northern Flood Agreement we have budgeted for $1 ,069,500 and the breakdown would be: land exchange $27 ,000; surveys and mapping $250,000; geotechnical su rveys $20 ,000; arbitr ator expenses $12 5,000 and that figure is cost-s hared equally with the Federal Go vern ment; Wildli fe Advi sory Planning Board $10 7,600; Communit y Liaison Comm ittee $93,700; Employment Task Force $25,800 and the Niyanun Dev elopm ent Corporation $400, 000 and the Agreement Co-ordination is $1 8,800 and the Niyanan Board Representation is $1 .6, that's for the directors involved on that board for travel expenses.

MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, the moneys that are provided by the Provincial Government, are they cost-s hared in any way with the Federal Government? I notice here Recoverable from Canada $62,500, is that the only amount that's recoverable out of this amount? MR. GOURLAY: The onl y recov erable is the $1 25,000 paid to the arbitrator, like in the case of Niyanun we put in $400,000, I think the feds put in $400,000 as welL MR.

BOSTROM: In the case of the development corporation referred to, is this according to a budget which they submit to your department or is there just a fla t amount given for them to ut il ize for development purposes and is there any monitoring of the functions of that development corporation to ensure that there is some benefit from the funds that are being granted? MR.

GOURLAY: This was according to th e agreement that was signed some four years ago and our responsibi lity was $1. 6 million provided on the rate of $400,000 per year and I believe this is our last payment coming up in September and there's a non-conditional grant paid to the Niyanun Board. MR. BOSTROM: Yes, Mr. Chairman, in the case of the arbitrator, can the Mini ster ind icate what he is doing at the present time and what he proposes to do over thi s next year? What cases if any, are referred to him? MR. GOURLAY: At the present time he has 12 cases before him. MR.

BOSTROM: I realize the conversations are pretty interesting over there but I can't hear them. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I thought the Mini ster was going to finish his answer. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, could the Mi nister perhaps give us some more detail now that he's heard some more? MR. GOURLAY: Of the 12 cases, some are against the province, some are against the Federal Government and some against Manitoba Hydro. MR. BOSTROM: Are these personal cases or are they community disagreements with various actions of the Provincial and Federal Governments? What are the nature of their disputes? MR.

GOURLAY: Most of them are communi ty. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: (b)(1) - pass the Mem ber for Rupertsland. MR. BOSTROM: Yes. With respect to the Wildli fe expenditure, $10 7,000 I believe the Mini ster referred to, can he ind icate what that is being used for? MR. GOURLA V: This is for the comm ittee involved with the Wild life Advisory Board, their expenses for travelling and per diems. MR. BOSTROM: Are there any concrete proposals coming out of this activity or is this just a meeting and discussion group? MR.

GOURLA V: I understand that they've come forward with many proposals and they've been dealt with on an ongoing basis. MR. BOSTROM: Can the Mini ster give us any examples of any recommendations they've made that have resulted in changes to the wildlife regulations or Wild life Management practices? MR. GOURLA V: In hunting and trapping there have been wildlife policies. We could probably provide you with a list of specific items. MR. BOSTROM: Mr.

Chairman, I'd appreciate that if you could give us a list of examples of the cases that are being considered by the Wildlife Comm ittee and also if you could give us a general list of those that are under arbitration at the present time by the arbitrator. There was an item just following the Wildlife item which I didn't catch but I think the amount he referred to is $19 3,000-somet hing. Could the Mini ster ind icate what that expenditure is for? MR. GOURLAY: Mr. Chairman, this is money paid to the Liaison Comm ittee as far as travel and per diem costs involved in the various claims.

This is to supply the various lia ison between the various group s involved, whether it be Hydro or whatever to the committee. MR. BOSTROM: Does the Federal Gov ernment contribute a similar amount? MR. GOURLAY: 100 percent provincial, I'm told. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: (b)(1) - pass; (b)(2) pass; (b)(3) - pass - the Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI: Before we leave that section, have all the land claims been settled? Is this the en<;! of the land claims within the Agreement or where are the land claims? 3322

Monday, 4 May, 1981 MR. GOURLAV: No, it's an ongoing process and a numb er of land claims are still be settled as yet. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, in this Budget there is if I recall $27,000 for land exchange. Could the Mini ster ind icate what this involves and what other land claims are in the process of negotiation? What has been settled up till now and how much more is there to go in the disputes? MR. GOURLAV: This is strictly under the Flood Agreement, land exchange under the Floo d Agreement. MR. URUSKI: Are there other land claims under the Flood Agreement yet to be settled? MR.

GOURLAV: Apparently none of the land claims under the Flood Agreement have been settled to date but the severance lines have been established and it's an ongoing process but I understand that actual land claims under this have not been finalized to date. MR.

URUSKI: The land claims that would be outstanding which are just really begun in terms of the land losses due to flooding on reserve lands and non-reserve lands, is that the process that it's going through now, now that the severance lines have been drawn up and esta bli shed, the negotiation s are beginning to see what kind of settlements there will be for lands that have been flooding? Is this what's really happening now, a calculation of what lands have been lost? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Mi nister. MR.

GOURLAV: Yes, it's a four-for-one settlement and it just involves the band areas. lt doesn't involve the Metis commun ities. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, when the Mi nister says it doesn't inv olve the Metis communi ties, what process are the those commun ities involved in at all in terms of land, being that they are provincial commun it ies not un der special status of the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs? MR. GOURLA V: Where it invo lves the community or private lands, this is being negotiated directly with Manitoba Hydro and those communi ties.

Where it's Crown lands, Indian reservations, this is under the Flood Agreement. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, in terms of the non­ Treaty communi ties, are there communit ies in the area that are non-Treaty in the flood area? Which are they and at what stage are they? MR. GOURLAV: Th ere are a numb er of commun ities. Nelson House, Cross Lake and Norway Hous e are three that have the Meti s operation alongside the resident reservations. MR. URUSKI: I see. Ha s there been a formula agreed to for the non-Treaty status commun ities in terms of land exchange or is there no land exchange?

Is it going to be a cash settlement or is it that still in the process of negotiations? 3323 MR. GOURLA V: This is being negotiated between the commun ities and Hydro. Apparently it could be either one or both. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(c)(1) - pass; 4.(c)(2) - the Mem ber for Rupertsland. MR. BOSTROM: I put my hand up for 4.(c)(2). That is related to the Special ARDA Agreement Other Expenditures. Can the Mi nister ind icate what the item is budgeted for and perhaps provide us with a breakdown of this item? MR. GOURLAV: Other Expenditu res?

This is $728,800, an increase of $54,000 and really it covers the inflationary increase, fees $1 ,300; facilities and equipm ent $5,000; specialized equipment, supp lies and servic e $6,5 00; operatin g costs $21 ,000; subsistance $900; project grants $694,10 0.00. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, have they budgeted the actual grants? Perhaps he could give us a list if he has them there of the grants and areas to which they are allocated. MR. GOURLA V: This year six were in the field of agriculture; 14 in fishing; 14 in training programs; 15 in trapping for a total of 49. The amount was $585,61 8.00. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI: Mr . Cha ir man, while there's a breakdown of the numb ers of grants, can he further refine that in terms of the grants? Is that indu stry­ wide commun ity-based grants or what are we really talking about? MR. GOURLA V: This is in primary resource related projects. MR. URUSKI: The six grants in agriculture, can the Mini ster ind icate the funding for that and what type of grants are we talking about? MR. GOURLAV: That's for garden ing, land development, some equipment. MR. URUSKI: And how much? MR. GOURLAV: A total of $62,281. 00. MR. URUSKI: And the fishing? MR.

GOURLAV: The fishing was $262,200, basically for nets and equipment associated with primary. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, there are a numb er of applications. Is trapping included in this group too? MR. GOURLAV: Yes. MR. URUSKI: There were a num ber of applications submi tted from communiti es in the lnterlake, the reserve communi ties, as of November although there were no answers provided to the applicants until they contacted the staff of the department some time in Janu ary. The response they received was that although they applied for grants for the 19 80-8 1

Monday, 4 May, 1981 trapping sea son , the appl ications would no t be conside red until thi s time of year. What is the process? Are you always one year behind in terms of the applications or one season behind, or how are the grants operat ed? Or are there so many applications that they just could not be handled in the year they were applied for? MR. GOURLA V: On the average they've been running about a three-month turnaround period on the applications. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, the commun ity I mentioned - I didn't raise it before - is the Lake Manitoba or Dog Creek Lake Manitoba Reserve.

They brought in I believe some 30 applications in the month of November. Not until January until they raised it with me and I made some enquir ies, did we find out those applications were put - if one can indic ate - on the back burner and they really were not handled. To this point in time I am not aware that they have actually been considered and whether they have been accepted or rejected. That's not been known. There's another area with respect to these grants that the Mi nister I believe should reconsider the process they go through.

There is a consulta tive process I understand between the department and trappers where there are trappers who are I guess elected or appointed at annual meetings, at least, in speaking to trappers the organization is very loosely knit and although trappers are consulted - or at least the representative is supposedly consulted - my impress ion from speaking to some of the trappers is that they're caught in a situation of everything is cut and dried and really they have little or no input in the decision-making as to how the grants are admini stered because the program I guess is straightforward.

If that's the rationale I'd like to hear that from the Mi nister. But certainly they find it very frustrating, at least the indi viduals I spoke to who were representing the Trappers' Association from the lnterlake area, they found it quite frustrating in terms of being involved in the selection or in the process of approving or not approving the applications for grants. What is the mechanism the department and the Mini ster uses with the trappers in this area?

Is it strictly an informative role that they are consulted as to this is the way it's going to be, or is there really some definite work and expertise or information that the department is seeking from these individuals? MR. GOURLAY: I'm advised by my staff and they're not aware, that there's been any major problems. There's been consultation with the local Fur Council, he's consulted on all the applications. However this isn't to say that there might be some individual problems. If you have any specific cases you would like to bring to the attention of staff they'd be more than pleased to follow up on them. MR.

URUSKI: The point I'm getting at, Mr . Chairman, is for example - and I'll relate this to the Fisherman's Advisory Comm ittee - there presently is underway in the commun ities, especially around Lake Winnip eg where there are area commi ttees, a movement to change the structure of the way that the representatives of the fishermen are being elected and how the y relate to the Advi sory Comm ittee to the Mi nister in terms of the Fishing Grants.

The complaint with respect to the trappers is very much the same, although there is a Trappe rs' Council the elect ion, of which is handle d qu ite loosely, there is really as I understand it a very informal structure within the trapping areas as to how the representatives are elected to represent the trappers with respect to the grants.

If I could suggest, maybe something that the department has had feedback on, in terms of, although a bit more formal relationship between the trapper people and a bit more formal election process so that all trappers, say that have registered, are notified by letter that there is an annual meeting and that kind of thing. 1 gather notic es are put up of meetings in areas but you know, as notices go, many people don't read them and as a result there is a fe eling of frustration amongst many trappers, and even those who are elected to sit on the Fur Council and are part of the selection process as I understand it, they find it quite frustrating.

But I'd also like to get from the Mi nister, what role do the elected people on the Fur Councils play in terms of the grant approval? What role actually do they play? Do they have some say in the process or is it fairly well as put, cut and dried and they are advised, here is the criteria and here are the applications. Is that the consultative process, or what is the process that actually goes on? MR. GOURLAY: Mr. Chairman, I un derstand that the program is generally well received and the council member has a very important input into all the applications.

He is elected by democratic process and the people involved in the grants consult and depend, for a large part, input from the Fur Councillor. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, there is no doubt, there is no argument I believe from my point of view, that the department does consult with people in the Fur Council. In terms of the elective process of the councillor, is there a mechanism that has been formalized as to how this individual is elected? Is it, as I have been lead to believe, notices are put out in the commun ities in the areas and there is an annual meeting held?

Could there be a bit more formal process in terms of notifying everyone in the past year who held a licence, is that a possibility? I should point out to the Mini ster there is a feeling of frustration among many of the trappers that they have at least not been part of the process or at least if they find out about it it's after the fact and they certainly feel there is some feeling of frustration. MR. GOURLAY: Mr. Chairman, we're not aware that there are any problems in the Fur Council. it's left to the group to elect their council members and to our knowledge there hasn't been any known or obvious problems. MR.

URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, when the Mini ster says there hasn't been problems, as I understand it, just this past few months there were meet ings held in the lnterlake and maybe in the registered trapli�e areas it's a bit of a different story but in the open area I know there were several meetings; there was the 3324

Monday, 4 May, 1981 annual meeting held I believe at Fisher Branch and then there was a special meeting held at Dog Creek Reserve because of some of the problem areas that I've raised in terms of the applications and the holdback of applications for several months.

So, maybe the nature of the meetings was different but certainly there were concerns expressed and there was more than one meeting held within that area where, if everything was running as smoothly as the Minis ter would have me believe, generally one annual meeting would have settled the situation; there would have been an election and, un less the meeting was held for some completely different reason, I'd like to hear the Mini ster. MR. GOURLAV: Mr.

Chairman, this is not part of my mi nistry to become involved in this process. it's a process handled by the trappers and it has not been brought to our attention that there has been any obvious wrongdoings within their group. However, again if you know of some specific problems that we can check out we'll be happy to do so but it's a situation that they look after appointing and having their meetings and deciding on who their councillors will be and I can say that we work closely with those councillors. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, I don't want the Mi nister to get the impression that I'm ind icating there is some wrongdoing in the organization or anything; that's certainly not what I'm raising. What I'm trying to raise is to improve the dialogue between your department and the trappers of the area; that's the essence of my comments, in order to at least get a feeling. I know in certain qu arters in the ind ustry exist that they are not part of it and they're not invo lved and while there are annual meetings held I understand that the department does co-operate in terms of the holding of the annual meetings to a degree.

What I am suggesting is that in order to bring about a more closer liaison, my suggestion is that a bit more formal - whether when I say formal you can formalize it or not formalize it - but in terms of the holding of annual mee ti ngs, the notification of trappers that there will be an annual meeting, those kinds of notices, which I understand the de partment partici pates in and assists the trappers, that I'm suggesting that this be und ertaken. MR. GOURLAV: Well, Mr. Chairman, I indi cated earlier that we don't have a role in our department to do those sort of things but I und erstand that the resources do.

That's a function of the resource personnel to assist the trappers in organizing their meetings and this sort of thing. We deal with the elected Fur Councillor but we don't have any role in determining how the councillor is elected. That's not in this mini stry but I understand resources do give some assistance to the trappers in notifying them when their annual meeting is going to be held and when the various meetings are taking place and reso urce perso nnel help with setting up tho se meetings; but not Northern Affairs personnel. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, I'll leave that now as I un derstand that the individuals who are, or at least I was given to und erstand and maybe I'v e been misinformed, that staff who handled the grants in terms of the trapping grants are also the staff who 3325 assist the trappers in setting up the meetings and the like. If that's not the case then, Mr. Chairman, I'll take it up with your colleague. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(c)(2) - pass - the Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: I stepped out of the room for a little while. I'm just wondering on this item, these grants are for traps and trapping equipment, is that what they are for? MR.

GOURLAV: Yes. MR. ADAM: How much can each trapper apply for? Is that on an annual basis? MR. GOURLA V: The amount of funding is based on the need of the individual trapper. MR. ADAM: Up to? MR. GOURLAV: No, there's no limit established. MR. ADAM: There's no limit. This would apply to special grants in the blocks or out of the block? Out of the trapping blocks, or everywhere? MR. GOURLA V: I und erstand that any licenced trapper is eligible to apply for this help. MR. ADAM: This would include say skidoos as well or the snow machines as well, eh? MR. GOURLA V: All equipment would be included or considered. MR.

URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, could I ask the Mi nister specifically where in the system are the 20- odd applications from the Dog Creek Reserve that were applied for at the end of November I am led to believe? Have they been approved or where are they in the process? MR. GOURLAV: Mr. Chairman, we'd have to take that question as notice and staff could check that out and advise you. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(c)(2) - pass - the Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: Again I was out of the room but the Fur Council are the group that ma ke the recom mendations for the appl ications? Is that correct? MR.

GOURLA V: The y are consu lted on all applications. MR. ADAM: I see. The applications come direct to the Min ister' s office or to some office in the Mi nister's department? MR. GOURLA V: They come to the Department of Northern Affairs in the Woodsworth Building. MR. ADAM: Say, like in our area they would have an office in Dauphin or is there a branch office in the district office in Dauphin?

Monday, 4 May, 1981 MR. GOURLAY: The y basically all come to Winnipeg. MR. ADAM: I'm wondering if the trappers are aware that these grants are available? lt seems to me that in the other areas, in fishing for instance, I don't get so many on trapping but I certainly do get a lot on fishermen. They phone me and they ask me, you know, so and so gets grants, there are grants available, how do you go about getting these grants and they are unaware of what's happening. I'm just wondering if that's the same thing that happens in this, if this is happening as well. MR.

GOURLAY: Well, I understand the grants have been available now for nine years and is probably one of the most well-known grant programs known to fishermen and trappers. MR. ADAM: Well, I don't want to talk about fishing but is it in this, the fishing? I see. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(cX2) - pass - the Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: I see, just a minute. So the fishing grants are here as well. I was wondering whether or not they were under the Mi nister of Agriculture. Well, I can say that I did get a call just recently from a fisherman who wanted to know how to go about getting grants.

You see, this is nine years already and they still are unaware of how to go about getting the grants. I advised him to get in touch, Mr. Chairman, with the Mani toba Fishermen's Association or Federation. MR. GOURLAY: Mr. Chairman, the Fishermen's Asso ciation is very well informed on the grant procedure. However, if you have a specific case that you want to refer to us we will certainly provide him with the information.

I might point out that we handle the grants through this program but the Department of Agriculture handle loans to fishermen, so there could be a confusion there as to whether it's a loan or a grant. MR. ADAM: Through MACC. Okay. So the trappers can obtain loans as well? MR. GOURLA Y: No. MR. ADAM: Not the trappers, just the fishermen can obtain loans. I see, so that's where the confusion is.

Well, this particular case that I raised about the fisherman after nine years is unaware where to go; unfortunately, I did steer him I guess in the right direction because I told him to get in touch with the association, the Fishermen's Associataion. I have seen him since then and I enquired as to how he made out and he says, yes, I guess you put me in the right direction. So hopefully he will be making an application for next winter. But the trappers, they don't have this similar type of association as the fisherm en. They have a Fur Council, is that a membership kind of a thing? MR.

GOURLAY: Yes, they have a duly elected fur councill or and that's organ ized , as I mentioned earlier, by the Department of Natural Resources, or they assist in the organization of that group. The council member that is elected is consulted on all the applications that are received. MR. ADAM: How many members are there on this council? MR. GOURLA Y: lt varies between three and seven people I understand, depending on the size of the association. MR. ADAM: I see. Then there are locals, is that it? There are locals in different areas and there isn't a broad-based membership. How do you coordinate all this group?

Do you have them coming in to a meeting? How do you coordinate all these locals, they are all in little . . . MR. GOURLAY: The Mani toba Asso ciation of Registered Trappers coordinates that. MR. ADAM: That is the association that compares with the fishermen's group then? MR. GOURLAY: Yes. MR. ADAM: That's right. They set up their own, they have their own cons t itution and their own regulations; they set up their own membership fees, is that correct? MR. GOURLAV: Right. MR. ADAM: I see, and their Fur Councils are the little local groups, is that correct? MR. GOURLAY: I didn't get your last question. MR.

ADAM: The Fur Councils are the little groups at the local level and they're tied in with the ... MR. GOURLA Y: With the overall organization, right. MR. ADAM: I see. Then if anyone wanted to apply for an ARDA grant he would apply to - would it be Dauphin? Is there a branch there or where would he go? They have to come to Winnip eg. MR. GOURLA Y: Any conservation officer would be able to assist. MR. ADAM: I see, he can apply to a conservation officer and they could assist there. That would apply maybe even as well to the fishermen, wouldn't it? MR. GOURLA Y: Right. MR. ADAM: I see. Okay. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 4.(c)(2) - pass.

Be it resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $2,272,300 for Northern Affairs -p ass. 5.(a) - pass; 5.(b) - the Member for Rupertsland. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, perhaps the Mi nister could outline the expenditur e involv ed here and break down the amount by function and location. MR. GOURLA Y: For roads, we have b t.idgeted $335,200; water and sewer, $45,600; equip ment 3326

Monday, 4 May, 1981 acquisition and repair is $48,800; garbage facilities, $144, 000; bu ildings, $264 ,800; do cks, $29.6; subdivisions, $1 22,200; the Fire Program is $606,400 for a total of $1. 6 million. MR. BOSTROM: The budgeted amounts, have these amounts been allo cated to spe cific projects in specific locations, particular commu nities? MR. GOURLAV: Yes, they've been allocated to specific projects. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, can the Mi nister give us a breakdown of those, not necessarily right now if he doesn't have them immedia tely at hand? MR. GOURLAV: Those can be provided. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 5.(a) - pass - the Mem ber for Rupertsland. MR. BOSTROM: I no te that this is un der the Northern Development Agreement, Mr. Chairman, and I would like to ask the Min ister if these are high on a priority with his department that these will receive funding regardless of whether or not the department receives the cost- sharing with the Federal Government. MR. GOURLAV: Some of these definitely will be provided. There may be some that will have to be deferred if cost-sharing isn't forthcoming. MR.

BOSTROM: What is the status of the Water and Sewer Program at the present time and what priority is the department putting on this? I ask this question to see if the Mi nister can tell us how many communities are still in a position of not having an adequate water supply and proper sanitation and sewer facilities. Does he have a long-range plan to implement this system or systems in the various commun ities that he is responsible for as Mi nister of Northern Affairs? MR. GOURLAV: Mr.

Chairman, thi s project is progressing very well and a numb er of the projects are covered under the Water Services Board and we can provide that list for you. We don't have it right here. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, what I would be interested in seeing is more than just one year's estimate or budget but what the whole program is over the period of several years to incorporate a proper water and sewer system in to all of the Northern Affairs commun ities.

What I would like to see is, you know, which ones have been done to date; which ones are planned for the fiscal year under consideration here, 1981- 82; and what the program is; which ones are on stream for 19 83-84- 85, etc.? If he has that kind of long-range projections I'd like to see that. MR.

GOURLAV: We can provide the information with respect to those communi ties that have been done to date, those that we are planning on doing in 1981 and also projection, where we're going on the remainder of the communi ties, whether they be the com muni ty of 15 or 20 people to the larger commun ities that do not have the services right now. MR. BOSTROM: With that in mind, Mr.

Chairman, could the Mi nister in dicate what are the general obje ctives of his department; that's beyond the specific projects but what are the general objectives with respect to water supply and sewer service for communi ties; that is, what level of service is the department projecting to provide as a general rule in Northern Affairs commun ities? MR. GOURLAV: We want to provide safe drinking water to all of the communities as well as adequate di sposal facili tie s and the levels are being establ ished in consultation with the various communities. That's a process that we are doing right at the moment.

We are having a series of meetings with the communi ties to discuss these levels of service for the respective commun ities. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, is the department having discussions with the Federal Department of Indian Affairs at the same time, since many of the remote Northern Affairs commun ities border on an Indian reserve and in some cases are the smaller part of the total commun ity?

I would think that any kind of water supply program or sewer and /or garbage disposal program could make logical sense if it were inc orporated in with whatever program planning the Department of In dian Affairs is proposing. I would ask the Mi nister if they've had any su ccess in being able to co-ope rate with the Department of In dian Affairs in projects of this type.

In particular, looking at this year, 1981- 82, are there any of these proposed projects in the area of water and sewer and garbage disposal that there are agreements with the Department of Indian Affairs to perhaps share facilities or share at least the cost of the program when it's in place? MR. GOURLAV: The Department of Indian Affairs are fully aware of the process that is going on now with the communities and we haven't any projects identified to date that would be a joint venture but ce rtainly we' re in terested in working with the communities and particularly in the Fire Program.

I think we've made considerable progress there with joint facilities between the Metis communi ties and the In dian bands. Ho pefully, we will get much agreement with the Department of Indian Affairs on some of these other services too, in the various communi ties. MR. CHAIRMAN: 5.(a) - pass - the Mem ber for Rupertsland. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, with respect to the area of expenditure under the heading Sub divisions, can the Min ister ind icate which commun ities they're proposing to have project activities relating to the development of subdi visions in this fiscal year, 19 81- 82? MR.

GOURLAV: I just don't have that information right at the moment but I'll obtain that for you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Mem ber for St. George. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, with respect to the agreement again, on roads. Are there any new roads in Northern Affairs communities and areas that will 3327

Monday, 4 May, 1981 be proceeding with? One that's been talked about for a long time is the Red Rose-Jackhead access, the upgrading of that road. Are there any funds slated for at least upgrading some portions of that road or the begi nning of the upgrading of that road to provide a better access for the commun ity of Jack head? MR. GOURLAV: In connection with the Jackhead­ Dallas road the feds have ind icated they will not partici pate in any cost-sharing of roads, I understand. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, the Minis ter ind icated there's an amount of $335,200 in terms of a road program.

What areas are we talking about? Is there any major road work in that agreement, or is that again maintenance in other areas? What are we really talking about? MR. GOURLAV: Mr. Chairman, if I may go back to the question with respect to subdivisions, there has been $25,000 budge ted for a new subdivision at South In di an Lake; $80,000 for a subdi vision at Norway House; also $30,000 for subdi visions at Gods Lake Narrows. MR. CHAIRMAN: 5.(a) - pass - the Honourable Mini ster. MR.

GOURLA V: Ther e is also some sm aller subdivisions, $3,000 and $1 ,500 for Eastervi lle; Manigo tagan, $9,000; Little Grand Rapids, $3,000; Pine Dock, $3,000; and Stevenson Island, $10 ,000.00. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Mem ber for Rupertsland. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, if any subd ivision work then is proposed for Bissett as a result of the mining activity, is that presumed to be paid for by the mine and not by the Department of Northern Affairs? MR. GOURLA V: No, that would be handled through provincial funding but that hasn't been sorted out at the present time as to the amount. MR. BOSTROM: Mr.

Chairman, are there any services that are budgeted at the present time in this Mi nister's Estimates for public-works-type activities for the community of Bis sett? If so where are they found and how much is budgeted? MR. GOURLAV: No, there's been no funds budgeted. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, where are those funds if they are to be budgeted in the fiscal year 1981 -82 for work there - I assume there will be work done there in this fiscal year - where will those funds be appropriated? MR. GOURLAV: In the case of Bissett, it wasn't known at the time the Estimates were finalized.

Work will obviously be done there and it will have to be covered by special warrant I would expect. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, is there any thought given to the mining company providing the necessary infrastructure by way of their own expend itures, rather than the government doing it? MR. GOURLAV: This has been part of the discussions that have taken place at recent meetings but nothing finali zed in that connection. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, can the Mi nister at least ind icate what position the government is taking in these discussions?

Are they proposing to the mining company that the mining company pay 100 percent or 75 percent or 50 percent or nothing? What position does this Mini ster have and the government have with respect to the provision of roads, sewer and water, garbage disposal sites, necessary pub lic service buil dings, subd ivision expenses, fire program? Almost all the things the Mi nister has listed here is necessary expenditur es for other communi ties.

I would ask him in view of the fact that the development here is largely as a result of the mine being put in place, does the Mi nister see this as a necessary 10 0 percent liabil ity of the Department of Northern Affairs, or is he proposing some level of cost-sharing with the mining company or in fact even proposing that the mining company pay for the whole shot? MR. GOURLA V: Wel l, these are areas we are currently discussing with the mining people and the various government departments.

I would expect that there will be input from the mining company in some of the infrastructure projects that will be un dertaken. MR. BOSTROM: Could the Mi nister indic ate if any of the community council or community comm ittee at Bis sett are involved in these dis cussions, and if not will they be involved at some point? Will they be a party to the agreement that's reached so that the community council will know where the funds are coming from?

In most of the communi ties, the community is involved in preparing the budg et for the necessary expenditures in their communi ty, or at least putting forward the proposals for various infrastructural needs in the communi ty. I wonder if there is any difference in this case, why there would be a difference and why the community would not be involved in these kinds of discussions. MR. GOURLAV: Mr. Chairman, we're trying to sort out the actual requirements of the community at the present time.

When this has been determined, further discussions will be held involving the communi ty people, the mining interests, the various departments of government as well as other agencies, the school, Hydro and so on. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, I would still like to know if the Mi nister can ind icate to us what policy position if any, the government has adopted with respect to a development like this.

This may not be the only min ing development that takes place - hopefully not the only one that takes place in a Northern community in the years to come - and I would wonder if the government of the day has a policy with respect to the development of mining towns. The former government had a policy with respect to development of towns like Leaf Rapids, where the government said, "We'll put the development in. The 3328

Monday, 4 May, 1981 people that live there will have their own town and the mining company will pay taxes to that communi ty just like any other industrial or manufac turing facility in a town or city". That was the policy of the NDP in go vernment. Can the Mi nister indi cate if this government has developed a policy or is prepared to enunc ia te a poli cy at this time respec ting the development of mining commun ities, mining towns? MR. GOURLAY: I can't spell out the exact program that will be finali zed in the commun ity of Bissett. We are currently working on it.

No doubt it will be similar to the Leaf Rapids situation but I can't be specific at this point. But certainly we have discussions well under way with respect to this community. MR. CHAIRMAN: 5.(a) - pass; 5.(b) - pass - the Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, can the Mi nister assure us of those projects that have been announced, in the event there will be expenditures required that are not budgeted for - for example the community of Bis sett - that the projects that have been announc ed will not be held back as a result of internal dollar shifts from one program to another, from one communi ty to another? Can I get from the Mi nister that kind of an assurance? MR. GOURLAY: Mr. Chairman, I could give the member that assurance that we would be going in that direction. MR. CHAIRMAN: 5.(c) - pass - the Mem ber for Rupertsland. MR. BOSTROM: Mr.

Chairman, could the Mi nister ind icate what this other expenditure as bud geted would be made up of? MR. GOURLA V: This is the non-shareable portion of the projects. We show a decrease here mainly because we did not expect to have a major remedial project at South Indian Lake reoccurring. When I say reoccurring, we did some 39 homes there last year, put up new foundations. Since that time another 29 hom es have been ident ified as an emergenc y situation, plus remedial work to the store. Those were not known and we didn' t budget for emergency situations of this magnitude.

So we show a decrease of $258,000 but obviously we'll be requiring, I think it's something like over $.5 million for the work that has to be done at South Indian Lake this year. However, the various projects that we list, roads was $436,000; water and sewer, $20,000; equipment acq uisition and repair, $1 ,500; garbage facilities, $7 ,500; buildings, $75,0 00; docks, $4,0 00; su bdivision, $14, 000; mi scellaneous projects, $40, 500; recreat ion faci liti es, $16 .5.

The miscellaneous projects of course cover the many things that can crop up on short notice especially in the water and sewer projects where the water people involved may have to in emergency situations, buy pumps and that sort of thing. MR. CHAIRMAN: 5.(c) - pass.

Be it resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $61 5,000 for Northern Affairs -p ass. 3329 6. pass - the Member for Rupertsland. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, we probably have the same que stion. I would ask the Mini ster to itemize the expenditures which are budgeted in this item. it's rather a large item. MR. GOURLAY: These are the various projects listed under tile various departments that have a cost-sharing program with the agreements. There's 11 or 12 departments involved that participate in this and the total of those comes to this $20 million. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. George.

MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, can the Mini ster list them just so we can cross-reference the departments and the programs? MR. GOURLAY: Yes, we can provide that list. MR. CHAIRMAN: 6. Rupertsland. pass - the Mem ber for MR. BOSTROM: Here again, Mr. Chairman, could the Mini ster ind icate if this amount will be approved for actual expenditure? MR. BOSTROM: Well here again, Mr. Chairman, could the Mini ster ind icate if this amount will be approved for actual expenditure if the cost-sharing agreement with the Federal Government for the Northern Development Agreement is not approved? MR. GOURLAY: Mr.

Chairman, as I mentio ned earlier, this would be in the realm of each department to make that determination. I have the list here for you if you want: Agriculture is $2.5797 million, that will be water and sewer primarily I guess; Community Services and Corrections $12 7.1; Education $3,568,000; Energy and Mines $575,700; Finance is $366.8; Fitness, Recreation and Sport $27 5.2; Hi ghways and Transpor tation $3,280.0; Labour and Manpower is $2,442.7; Muni cipal Affairs is $15 9.0; Natu ral Resou rces is $3,739.2 and No rthern Affairs is $2,983.2 for a total $20,096,600.00. MR. CHAIRMAN: 6. pass.

Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $20,096,600 for Northern Affairs -p ass. 7. the Mem ber from St. George. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, just looking at the Agricultu ral Estima tes in terms of the No rthern Development Agreement showing the figure of $2.36 million and yet the Mi nister of Northern Affairs gave us the figure of $2.579 million in terms of the agreement, could the Minis ter indic ate the difference in the two figures that are shown in the Estimates? MR. CHAIRMAN: Could you give us the page number? MR.

URUSKI: On Page 13, Resolution No. 15, now there may be another one that I may have missed. I'm sorry, Mr. Chairman, yes there is the figure of $219, 000 in another lot. Thank you.

Monday, 4 May, 1981 MR. CHAIRMAN: 7.(a) - pass; 7.(b) - pass; there is no resolution there so we turn to 1. (a). The Member for Rupertsland. MR. BOSTROM: On the� Communi ties Economic Development Fund why did this become a shareable item under the Northern Development Agreement? Is this a new proposal for this to be cost-shared? MR. GOURLA V: The items covered under this has always been shareable. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (

a) The Mi nister's Salary - pass.

Be it resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $201 ,000 for Northern Affairs -p ass. Comm ittee Rise. SUPPL V - ATTORNEY -GENERAL MR. DE PUTY CHAIRMAN, Len Domin o (St. Matthews): Call the Comm ittee to order. I direct your attention to Page 16 of the Main Estimates, Item 3.(b)(1) - pass - the Member for Fort Rouge. MS. JUNE WESTBURY: I have a couple of questions to ask the Honourable Attorney-General on this ma tter of the Manitoba Hu man Rights Commission.

I would like to know, first of all - I've read the report but I didn't get the answers in the report - I want to kno w how many cases the Hum an Rights Commission took to court in the past year and, if pos sible, a breakdown on cases of discrimination, racial and sexual discrimination, if that's possible to get that, Mr. Chairperson, please. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Attorney-General. HON. GERALD W.J. MERCIER (Osborne): Mr.

Chairman, there have been during the last year five Boards of Adjudication which is not really a court hearing but it's a procedure whereby I appoint an adjud icator and the adjud icator calls a hearing. Those are set out - if the member has the Annual Report - on pages 15, 16 and 17, the five Boards of Adjudication that were held here in 1980. MS. WESTBURY: Well, Mr. Chairperson, I'd have to go back and have another look at the report.

I read each one of those but it doesn't really seem to have been a very strong case put by the comm ission for the rights of individuals, which I heard our Premier say not very long ago, "The rights of ind ividuals are best protected by their Legislatures". I therefore would have expected the Manitoba Hum an Rights Commission to be playing a more aggressive role in protecting rights. I would like to look at a couple of cases. I heard the member for I think it was Churchill this afternoon ask when you expect the report of the task force on the 65-year-old retirement age to be presented.

Did he receive an answer to that? MR. MERCIER: No, we ended, Mr. Chairman, before I was able to give an answer. He asked a number of questions and I can try and answer them now. I was going to wait until he was here. He asked when are public hearings planned? Mr. Chairman, I'm given to un derstand that public hearings will take place the last half of Jun e and into July, Mr. Chairman. I expect to receive a report before the end of the year from Mr. Rothstein. The Mem ber for Churchill also raised the question of why is there just a reference to The Human Rights Act in the Terms of Reference.

In the Terms of Reference, Mr. Chairman, "refer to, enquire into, evaluate, study and report with respect to the advisabil ity or inadvisability of revising The Human Rights Act and/or related legislati on". The Member for Churchill just went as far as The Human Rights Act and I suggest to him, Mr. Chairman, that the addit ional words "and/or related legisla tion" include the Acts that he referred to, Civil Service Act and Employment Standards Act, Public Schools Act and all the other statutes in which manda tory retirement is referred to. MS. WESTBURY: Mr.

Chairperson, I want to ask a question about the Public Safety Building. I tried to ask under another section, I'm still trying to find out just where I should be ask ing this . Un der what authority do the corrections staff at the Public Safety Building Jail demand blood samples from ind ividuals booked through the jail; under what authority and under what circumstances? MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, I'm not aware of that practice, perhaps the member for Fort Rouge can give me some particulars later on. lt certainly doesn't pertain to the human rights legislation we're dealing with in the operation of the Huma n Rights Commission under the legislation but I would be happy to look into it for her. MS. WESTBURY: I'd like to know what the qua li fica tions of the officials are? it's my unde rstanding that they do take blood samples without the consent of the individuals who have been booked.

My source did not want his name used so I'm afraid I can't give examples, although I can try again to get some and I'll pass them on to the Honourable Mi nister. First of all, I want to say that I think one of the weaknesses of the legislation as we have it now has been proven to be the inability of the Commission to act where the government is the body being complained against in matters of human rights.

There was one complaint of my own that I referred to the Hum an Rights Commission to which I don't really want to make further reference at the moment but there was a complaint that I registered with them against the Manitoba Telephone System and I do think that it needs to be pointed out that the Human Rights Commission really was not able to, or willing to, take any particular action in this instance. lt was the case of a women who had been separated from her husband.

The couple, as a married couple, had a telephone for some time and when the marriage broke up and the women applie d for her own telephone she was harrassed because she didn't have a credit rating with the Telephone System. The husband had a credit rating with the Telep hone System; the wife did not and there was considerable anger about that, on my part and on the part of the complainant and on the part of a number of other women who, I've found out afterwards, have been in a similar position.

The final letter that I received from the Manitoba Hu man Rights Comm issi on · on this matter dated September 2nd and the File No. is 3330

Monday, 4 May, 1981 79A274, if anyone wants to look it up, said the investigation revealed that the wife's account had been treated in accordance with established polici es of the Manitoba Telephone System without regard to her sex and/or marital status. Now, Mr. Chairperson, I suggest that was not quite an accurate statement. There was no denial on the part of the Manitoba Telephone System that she had been treated as she was being treated because she was a separated or divorced wife. The husband was not treated in the same way. This woman was harassed.

She received a letter at 5 o'clock one afternoon to the effect that her telephone would be cut off the following morning if she didn't pay her bill in full. That was the first information she had received on that particular bill. it was demanded of her that she pay a de posit, which was no t req uir ed of the husband and all apparently because the husband and wife had a telephone in the name of the husband.

When they had listed their telephone they had asked to have it in both names and th e Telephone System for reasons of economy and not wanting to have to put two names in their directory, because if everyone wanted to do that they'd need a much larger directory obviously, had talked them out of having it listed in both names then when the marriage broke up the woman was discrimi nated against. All that came out of it on a positive note was that the respondent, the Manitoba Telephone Sys tem, had voluntarily ag reed to review their policies and procedures and make modifica tions where necessary.

I don't kn ow if anyt hing has happ ened to change but the Hu man Rights Commission just stated the file will now be closed. So I think there's a weakness there, Mr. Chairperson, through you to the Mi nister in that the Hu man Rights Comm ission app arently had no authority when dealing with a go vernment department to insis t that the rights of this particular woman should be recognized. There have been a number of other similar cases. When I brought this to light, brought this into the open a numb er of other people came to me and said they had been treated in exactly the same way. I feel, (

a) that the Manitoba Telephone System when asked to list both names, the people were prepared to pay the extra cost if necessary, should at least un dertake the responsibility if they talk them out of having it in both names, or refuse to allow them to have it in both names, they have to shoulder the responsibilit y for future action and for the future credit rating within the system of both parties to the marriage. So I think this is something the Mi nister should have a careful look at and perhaps the Hum an Rights Commission needs strengthening where government departments are concerned.

I've said this before public ly and I'll say it again, I do believe this Min ister has a sincere concern for the rights of women. I wish I could say that about all the people who sit on that side of the House with him but from my experience in City Council and in this House I do believe the Mi nister has a sincere concern. I have no hesitation in suggesting to him that he have another look at the Human Rights Commission and their authority where it relates to government departments. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, as far as the legislation is concerned,

Section 35 of The Hum an Rights Act would appear quite clearly to bind the Crown. it states the Crown and every servant and agent of the Crown is bound by this Act. So I don't think if there is a problem it's with the Legislation. Mr. Chairman, the executive director advises me, although he can't recall the details of the particular case that the member refers to, he doesn't recall it gene rally and he will have an offi cer of the commission contact the Mem ber for Fort Rouge to discuss the details of it with her. MR. DEP UTY CHAIRMAN: The Mem ber for St. Johns. MR. SAUL CHERNIACK: Thank you, Mr.

Chairperson, may I ask the Mini ster how much was spent last year on this item? Under Item (b)(1) and (2). While he's looking that up, Mr. Chairperson, I'd like to know how much of this proposed budget, how it's divided as between complaints and enforcements and education and publ icity on the purposes of the legislation? MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman , the information I have is that approximately $10 0,000 was spent in this area last year and about 30 percent was spent on education. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairperson, I just want to get it clear.

The Mi nister requested and received an authority to spend $472,000 last year and does he say he only spent $1 00,000.00? -(I nterjection)- I said (b)(1) and (2). MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, referring to the total expen ditur es. The advice I receive is that approximately 30 percent of the total would be spent on education. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairperson, I had asked how much was spent on this Item (bX1) and (2) and the only thing I received is $1 00,000 which I now gather was Item (2). How much was spent in the entire (b)? MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, about $475,000 was spent. MR.

CHERNIACK: Is there any change in staff man years as between last year and what is expected for this coming year justifying the in crease of about $75,000 under (bX 1) ? MR. MERCIER: There is no increase in staff man years. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chai rperson, that would imply a 20-percent increase in Salaries. Is that what the Mini ster will confirm, with the same number of people; an increase of some $75,000 or $73,000 over last year on 37, I think it's sounding more like a 25 percent increase, 20 to 25, is that correct?

How can he explain that in view of the fact that it's not expected that Salaries will have been incr eased substantiall y? There is still an item in the Estimates for a nil amount for salary incr eases in several departments. I'm sorry, Mr. Chai rperson, I must correct myself. To my astonishment - oh, yes, I see that on Page 11 5 under Item 25, General Salary 3331

Monday, 4 May, 1981 Increases there's a expectation that it'll go up. I'm just surprised to notice that under 106 the Premier and President of Council's salary, Min ister without Portfolio, Minis ters' Salaries and all there's a further increase expected. I really was not aware of that item but I'm coming back to what is an apparent increase of 20 to 25 percent. MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, I believe what looks like a large increase is something that appears quite often throughout the Estimates this year as a result of the two-year settlement that was entered into last year so that, in comparing the two, the figure for this year includes a 9.5 percent increase I think during the last fiscal year plus 10 percent for this year, plus increments. MR. CHERNIAK: But, Mr. Chairperson, I had asked what was spent last year not what was budgeted last year.

We were told that what was spent last year was about $475 ,000 of which $1 00, 000 was Other Expendit ures which makes it $375,000 for Salaries spent, not authorized but spent. it's a very similar amount to what was authorized. Now the increase of what was spent last year to what is requested this year is still an increase of 20 to 25 percent for one year without an incr ease in staff. Therefore, I don't think the Mini ster has explained the large increase by saying it's a two-year jump in view of the fact that he says the same amount was spent last year as was appropriated.

I hope I make my que stion clear because the Mi nister's answer was clear but is not reconcilable. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I'm advised that departmental officials do not have an exact figure for last year. that there would have to be added to $472,2 00 additional mone ys to take into consideration that portion of the wage increase for last year that is not reflected in that statement; that exact figure is something I don't have. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, I'm at a loss to und erstand how it is that the Mi nister doesn't know, doesn't have before him, the figures of Expenditure under this Item (

b) for last year. I gather from him that he has the appropriation but that additional moneys spent in this item he said the departmental officials don't have. Frankly I don't understand that; it seems to me that when moneys are spent for an item they are spent and should be recorded in the proper department and in the proper category. I'm conc erned to un derstand how it is that the department doesn't know what is spent on this Item (b). Is that the impression the Min ister wants to leave us with, that the department doesn't know how much was spent? MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, to get the exact figures is a little early because, as I understand it, the fiscal year just ended March 31s t. The figures that do attempt to explain the adjusted vote of $4 72,200 to convert it to the existing level for that year would add salary adjustments of $17 ,300; general salar y in creases 19 80 -81 shor tfall of $25,10 0.00. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairperson, I think I'm as confused as you are and I'm going to let it go because I'm assuming that no money was improperly spent, nor were there salaries not paid.

I would hope we can get that inf ormation in the near futur e becaus e I really don't quite un derstand (Int erjection)- Oh, the Minis ter says it should be available fairly shortly so I'll let it go and assume he will bring that information to us. Now, Mr. Chairman, as I understand it 30 percent of the Budge t is estimated to be spent on Education.

Does that then mean that 30 percent of the work load, or is it some different proportion as between the duti es and time alloca ted by staff, in other words, is there an advertising program which is separate from staff or is it just an estimate that, of the total work load carried, 30 percent is for Education and 70 percent for complaints, investigation and enforcement? If that is the case, would the Minis ter define or describe the manner in which the education is being carried on? MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, the 30 percent is an estimate of the work load of the various persons employed in the Human Rights Commission relative to Education. Enforcement officers, for example, give seminars, make speeches in schools, there are various workshops, speak ing enga gements, participation in conf erence s and overall the est im ated work load of the Comm ission staff contri bu tes ap proxima tely 30 percent to an educational function. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Chairperson, I would like to know the extent to which the commission goes out and looks for opportunities to make this program known, as compared with responding to requests.

Is there a concerted effort to get into the schools, to get into frate rnal organizations, to get into commun ity organizations, to be able to talk this up and to reach out to those areas of the population where there is most likely to be a breach of the principles of The Huma n Rights Act? it's no t unrelated to ask the Mi nister at this stage why it is that the City of Winnip eg apparently feels it advisable to set up its own, I would almost call it a Hum an Rights Commission from the way it described what it is planning to do and that is something to promote inter-racial understand ing or public relations of the nature dealing with the im pact of biased and bigoted people on society?

The city has apparently announced, or the Mayor has announced, that he's setting up a commi ttee, in the form of a commission, and I'd like to know just whether this is being done independently of the Human Rights Commission; is it done in concert with the Human Rights Commission; is the program intended to be co-ordinated in some way? MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, of the estim ated 30 percent of the activity of the comm ission related to education it's further estimated that about half of that, 15 percent, relates to speeches, etc., semin ars in an educational way, they are unsolicit ed so that the commis sion itself is involved in going out and advising as to its availability, making itself available and speaking or discussing relative to the Hum an Rights Commission. So about half of that 15 percent is unsolicited and I suppose could be referred to as an Ou treach Program. The City of Winni peg Committ ee that the member refers to does not, as I 3332

Monday, 4 May, 1981 understand it, have any direct relationship with the Human Rights Commission but the Huma n Rights Commission staff and officials are involved in the schools in the particular area that has been the subject of some discussion but to date there has not been any working together with the Hum an Rights Commission but that may very well develop. MR. CHERNIACK: I didn't hear the last sentence. MR. MERCIER: That may develop. MR. CHERNIACK: So, Mr. Chairman, I want to react positively to the positive program that the Mini ster described, the Outreach but, just coming back you said that ma y dev elop.

I don't bel ieve in happenstance; I'd like to know what effort is being made to co-ordinate the work. lt would be a pity if there is a redundant program, one carried on by the city and one carried on by the province.

Certainly the allegations in the newspapers, the description of the bigo ted attitude s of certain members of the communi ty that forced the Mayor to believe that there was a need for a greater program, a positive program of education, cannot be in conflict with the objectives of the comm ission itself. it's not that it may develop but that the Attorney-General would attempt to persuade the members of the comm ission to take a step forward and to approach the people in the City of Winn ipeg who have expressed a serious concern and offer to participate and offer to lend their services and offer to sh are in the responsibili ties and offer to carry out whatever programs it is deemed advisable, rather than to see whether it develops of its own accord.

I would have liked to have heard the Mi nister say, yes, our people are talking to the city to see the extent to which they could co-ordinate their activities; that is not what he said, he said it may develop. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, as I've indicated, the staff of the commis sion are working in the schools in that particular area where a problem has developed. As I un derstand it from the commission there has been no attempt by the comm ittee or the Mayor's office to contact the Hum an Rights Commission. I can certainly raise it, Mr.

Chairman, with the Mayor and attemp t to deter mine if the Hu ma n Rights Commission staff and officials could be helpful at all in the work of this race relations commi ttee. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chai rperson , I would certainly hope that an effort will be made. it's not a question of the commission sitting back and waiting to hear from the city. I would hope that they are not so righteous as to feel that the only approach has to be from the city to the Human Rights Commission and that can't work the other way.

They are all, and we are all concerned , with a really very serious problem in communi ty relations in this province and there should not be any holding back or any waiting for someone else to star t working on the co­ operative effort but rather they should reach out in the outreach way. If they have workers in the schools, talking in the schools that are in the effected area, then surely that should be a co­ ordinated job with the Committee.

Citizen involvement is of very great importance in this kind of effort and when mem bers of the commun ity want to gather together, want to work together, want to do something, then the commission and its people in the Manitoba Commission should be happy to take advantage of the fact that there are people who care to the extent of giving of their time and effort and they should go.

I'm glad the Mi nister has ind icated that he will try to co-ordinate some kind of effort that would bring them together and see if they have a common purpose - I'm sure they have a common purpose and a common goal but they should have a common program. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: 3.(b)( 1) - pass; 3.(b)(2) - pass; 3.(

c) Canada- Manitoba Crimi nal Inju ries Compensation Board. The Member for St. Johns. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to know how much is now being paid to a person who is permanently inju red - I mean injured, not partially but injured so that he or she cannot be active? How much per week or per mo nth is paid as compensation? MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, as I know the Member for St.

Johns is aware, this program is admini stered by the Workers Compensation Board. lt would appear that if the vic tim was emplo yed compensation benefits for loss of wages would be paid at 75 percent of earnings, maximum earnings $1 9,000 and I assume that the maximum earnings are figures that correspond to the wage levels, etc. set by the Workers Compensation Board in other matters. So, if the victim was employed, the benefits would be 75 percent of ea rnings based on a maximum of $19 ,000.00. MR. CHERNIACK: Yes, Mr.

Chairperson, I assume the Mi nister means calculated on the basis of a $19, 000 income which means the maximum payment would be 75 percent of $1 9,000 even if the person is earning mu ch more than $19, 000.00. Is there a maximum for property damage? MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, there is payment for loss and damage to clothing, eyeglasses, hearing aids, and dentu res. That would appear to be the payment that would be closest to payment related to compensation for property. MR.

CHERNIACK: That's for damaged clothing, loss or damage, there is no other compensation for actual loss of personal possessions which are stolen , I believe that's not covered by this Act at all. That satisfies me, Mr. Chairman. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: 3. 3(c) - pass; 3(d). The Member for St. Johns. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, on the Police Commission I'd like clarification. I don't recall seeing an Annual Report, is there one on the Police Commission? I don't remember seeing one. MR. MERCIER: I'm pretty sure that I've got an Annu al Report and I'm sure it was filed in the Legislature. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Chairperson, I don't doubt that if there is one that it was filed, I just said I don't 3333

Monday, 4 May, 1981 remember seeing one which is not surprising. The Police Commission I believe has two functions - 1 hope the Mini ster will clarify if I'm wrong or expand on it - one function is the review of police activities insofar as they affect the public which is really I suppose in the question of discipl inary measures; the other is an educational process to upgrade the standards of the police forces. I believe that that is a general description of the activities of the Police Commission. I wonder if the Mi nister could elaborate on that? MR. MERCIER: Well, Mr.

Chairman, the report perhaps more succinctly set out the role of the comm ission as a research standardization and co­ ordination body to promote the prevention of crime, efficiency of police services and police community relationships in the Province of Manitoba and then also goes on to deal with it's powers to hear appeals from enqu iries, etc. MR. CHERNIACK: The question of appeals, appeals from what bodies, from what decisions and what is the relationship of the Manitoba Police Commission to the Winn ipeg Police Commission? MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, the Manitoba Police Commission can hear an appeal from the Winnip eg Police Commission or, for example, the Brandon Poli ce Commi ssion but, to my kno wled ge, Mr . Chairman, although we have heard over the years complaints about, for example, the manner in which the Winn ipeg Polic e Comm ission dealt with an allegation of police brutality, I'm not aware of any appeals that were taken from the decision of the Winn ipeg Police Commission to the Manitoba Police Commission. MR. CHERNIACK: Yes, Mr. Chairperson, that's the point I was getting at.

I'm wondering the extent to which complainants who appear before the Winn ipeg Police Commission are informed of their right to appeal. MR. MERCIER: I wonder if I could ju st clear something up, Mr. Chairman. The report was tabled and a limited number of copies were left with the Clerks but it has not yet been printed and distributed to all members of the Legislature. I could provide, Mr. Chairman, through the Clerk with an office copy of the report for the Mem ber for St.

Johns; apparently it's in the process of being printed into a more presentable form and then would be distribut ed to all members of the Legislature. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairp erson, I thank the Honour able Mi nister. This is a comment in some way of our complaint this afternoon that Manitoba Hydro printed a report which was suppressed and burnt, or destroyed in some way, and here we have a report which was tabled but not distributed because it's not yet printed. Nevertheless it's better to have it than to complain that we don't have it because it's not printed.

Also it may explain why I don't remember having seen it. But, Mr. Chairman, I will peruse it and maybe during the Salary in the next few days we can come back to anything that comes up. I heard the Mini ster say that there have not been many or any, I thought 3334 the case that was dealt with just a few days ago, Frampton or Frampson or something, was that not a Winnip eg Police Commission? MR. MERCIER: Well, Mr. Chairman, the Frampton Case that was referred to was the result of an Order­ in-Council referring the matter to the Ma nitoba Police Commission for a hearing. MR. CHERNIACK: So, Mr.

Chairperson, it would appear that there are very few hearings being held by the commission, which may be considered a good thing; that if there is no need for it then why hold hearings. On the other hand, if people are not notified of their rights to have the appeal taken then obviously there wouldn't be many appeals. I see under Investigation and Appeals there is reference to the Susan lrvine case, which is really an employment case with the Winnip eg Police Commission. 1 think that's the only reference under In vestigations and Appeals. MR. MERCIER: One comment, Mr.

Chairman, the member has referred to the fact that people aren't aware of their notices or of their right to appeal. As I reco llect, in gene ral, the suggestions tha t the Winnip eg Police Commission had not heard cases of alleged brutality properly, at least in the opinion of the person making the comments, mo st of the persons making those comments were lawyers and I would assu me would be aware of the appe al provisions to the Manitoba Police Commission. MR. CHERNIACK: Yes, Mr. Chairperson, I guess one could assume that the lawyers should know. However, there are many things lawyers don't know.

I think that's a matter of knowledge and fact. Is there a requirement as to whether the Police Commission on hearing appeals shall meet in camera or shall meet in open hearings? MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I don't have the legislation but I think it's optional; but Frampton I am advised was in public, at least a great majority of it. MR. CHRNIACK: Optional on whose behalf, Mr. Chairperson? Who decides whether or not it shall be open? MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I believe it's the Commission itself who can get out the statute and get the exact reference in the legislation. MR.

CHERNIACK: Does the Ma nitoba Pol ice Comm ission have any author ity to deal with complaints about the RCMP in Manitoba? MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I referred to that generally in my opening remarks. There was a recent case in the Province of Alberta, Putnam and Kramer, in which the Alberta Court of Appeal determined that the Provincial Police Commission did not have the authority to deal with complaints against members of the RCMP. That was appealed to the Supreme Court. I believe it is being heard and a decision is pending.

From that I would assume as the law stands now that until we have a Su preme Court cjecision overruling the Alberta Court of Appeal, that the Manitoba Police Comm ission do no t have th e

Monday, 4 May, 1981 ju risdiction to deal with compla ints agains t the RCMP. Mr. Chairman, with reference to in camera mee tings by the Ma nitoba Pol ice Commi ssio n,

section 26, 5. 1 of the Act provides that the public or any mem ber thereof may be excluded from the hearing of an appeal, etc., ... or from any part of the hearing if in the opinion of the Commission the interests of public morals the maintenance of order, the proper admin istration of justice or the ends of justice so require. MR. CHERNIACK: Well, Mr. Chairperson, I'm glad the Mi nister brought to our attention the date. it's not very often dates like that seem to be meaningful to Mini sters and one suspects that when they offer a date there's a reason for doing it. One can't help but suspect that.

But I'm glad to know that apparently the legislation provides that the hearings shall be open un less there is good reason advanced and approved by the Commission for ke eping it in camera. I contrast that with legislation we passed last year under my protest dealing with professionals, where they were in camera hearings. Professionals seem to get consideration from the Legislature, especially last year's Legislature, to carry on their investigations, hearings and debates on disciplina ry measures in camera. I have grave doubts about whether or not that's advisable.

As a matter of fact I might say in comment in relation to the 1972 legislation, that the Law Society itself says that they are in camera un less the person compla ined agains t wishes that it be open to mem bers of the society. The pub lic still is no t allowed in. But in the legislation we debated last year, even tha t was barred and as I recall it, members of the society of whatever profession it is are not allowed to be present at a hearing affecting one of their own mem bers. I'm speaking from memory. I'm pretty sure I'm right.

In view of the fact that we 'll be dealing with a vast numb er of professional bills this year, I'm glad the Mi nister was able to read to me the 19 72 legislation which seems to put the onus on the Commission, rather than in the legislation. Mr. Chairperson, I'd like to know also from the Mi nister the extent to which the Manitoba Police Commis sion has set certain standards, code of ethics, method of operation, quali fications for police forces in Manitoba or whether inde ed it is left to the mun icipality to determine those standards and those quali fications and those codes of ethics.

I see from the report and I'm not unfamiliar with training that is being done by the Commission, I know is doing work with native constables and generally is carrying on various programs which I'm sure are all worthwhile. But do they also set standards against which one can measure the performance of the police officers in the province? MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, I think in this area the Manitoba Police Commission attempts to confine its work more to the police forces outside of the City of Winnip eg Police Force and the RCMP and to work with and hold seminars for, etc., muni cipal police forces other than those two main police forces in Manitoba. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Chairman, it may be that we're talking about very very few police officers if we 3335 exclude the City of Winnip eg and the RCMP. lt seems to me that this whole disagreement that's going on about the payment or the sharing of costs with the RCMP would itself make useful an exercise of a review as to the extent of the activities of the police forces which are sup ported by provincial dollars. In other words it seems to me that there ought to be some overview of the responsibilities carried on by police.

Now we touched on it earlier in these Estimates when I suggested that if indeed, $200,000 was spent on wiretaps and transcriptions in one particu lar case inv olving cha rges agains t bookmakers, then it may be that same kind of money could have been better spent for more police officers on the beat in the residential communities. lt may well be that money spent on traffic enforcement might be better spent again, on the use of police in residential areas where now there is a great increase in assaults of various natures.

I'm wondering the extent to which the province attempts to influence in an educational way, I don't mean by compulsion, in an educational way a review on the basis of the inertia that takes place with departments, with sections of the bureaucracy, could well be that once you have five people doing one job, it is not likely that they will say four could do it as well as the five and we could easily release one for some other purpose.

I raised the question the other day as to who would review this $200,000 cost - I know that figure has not yet been substantiated by the Mi nister so I have to use a figure and that's the only figure that has received pub licity - who looks at that figure to determine whether or not it is properly spent.

Not having had any recent participation in budgeting at a mun icipal level and I know the Minis ter himself has had much more recent opportunity to watch the review, I can only refer back to my own experience which ind icated to me that very little time was spent on an actual review of actual expenditures. it's sort of left to the Auditor to do that and what Auditor can do other than certify that the people responsible spent the money in a legal way and that the money was all accounted for.

So I'm just wondering whether the Manitoba Police Commi ssion should be setting standards which might be something like a town of 1, 000 people mainly residential in nature should have X numb er of police officers; a City of Winnip eg should in certain residential areas have one police officer per so many residents and per capita of some kind - something like that where we can adopt a standard which if it's good for Winnip eg should be good for Brandon and should be good for Thompson. I'm not aware that our Police Commission or any other branch of the Attorney-General's Department gets involved in that.

I have to ask whether there should not be an effort to see to it that the delivery of police services is standard ized to the extent that anywhere in the province we can say that there is equal sort of protection being offered, related of course to the density or sparcity of population per geographic area and to the various problems which are distinctly different from place to place. I'd just like to know to what extent that is being attempted. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I think in respect to the Member for St. Johns' first remarks, I think with all due respect he was referring more to establishing

Monday, 4 May, 1981 prioritie s in the spending of mo neys on polic e serv1cmg rather than devel oping standards, particularly when he referred to, I think, just generally where should a City of Winn ipeg Police Force have its priorities, on traffic or on the so-called $200,000 or on dealing with violent crime. Mr. Chairman, those areas of priority and expen ditur es of the Winnipeg Police Force as I un derstand it go through the Winnip eg Pol ice Commi ssion through the Fi nanc e Commi ttee, Executive Policy Commi ttee and eventually Council.

Ob viously, I think where those expendit ures or proposed expenditures would get the greatest review and detail would be either at the Winnip eg Police Commission or at the Finance Commit tee levels. I would tend to agree with him that it may very well be, Mr. Chairman, that not enough attention is given in the consideration of expenditu res for the police department to the establishment of priorities and the spending of moneys on matters of priority. I haven't been there for some four years now. I was never on th