Volume XL Thursday Province of Newfoundland FORTIETH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND Second Session VERBATIM REPORT {Hansard) Speaker: Honourable Patrick McNicholas Number 37 22 May 1986

The House met at 3:00 p.m. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! Statements by Ministers MR. BARRETT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Development. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BARRETT: Mr. Speaker, the peak Summer rapidly level of tourist season approaching and is the interest in vactioning in Newfoundland and Labrador is at an all time high. In April alone the Department of Development and Tourism received a total of 8,900 enquiries as opposed to 5,000 for the same month in 1985, which represents a 71 per cent increase in requests for information.

We receive these requests in a number of ways. Potential tourists either write the department directly, they walk in • off the street • , or phone us on either our regular phone lines or on tbe toll-free tourist information phone service. This latter service, known as the Wats Line, is available throughout the Eastern, Northeast U.S. and Canada. This year alone we have recorded significant increases in the use of the Wats Line, particularly from the United States. In March of 1986 calls on this service were up 189 per cent from U.S. sources.

In April we L2155 May 22, 1986 Vol XL experienced a 97 per cent increase, and to date in May the calls are up by 130 per cent. In total from all sources, U.S. , included, the use of the toll-free service has increased by 120 per cent in the last year. There are several reasons behind these ~ncreases, and other concurrent increases in written enquiries, not the least of which is the professional advertising campaign we have launched in our price target areas of the Northeast U.S. and the Maritimes.

This year '"'e have embarked on a $1.2 million advertising effort using print, radio, and television mediums to promote the Province as a unique vacation alternative. In the United States this campaign is complimented by a $30 million Federal ad campaign. The timing of these major marketing efforts are opportune, especially as they relate to attracting American tourists. Recent trends have developed whereby American tourists are looking for vacation alternatives closer to home. There are several reasons for this.

First, the unfortunate reality of the threat of international terrorism has made American tourists wary about travelling to overseas -destinations. Secondly, the American dollar is strong against the Canadian dollar and as a result the American tour wholesalers and travel agencies are finding that they can present affordable and attractive vacation packages to Canadian destinations. And third, the price of gasoline has ·fallen thereby making auto vacations more cost efficient for the average tourist. And what we are finding now is that, through the No. 37 R2155

promotional Department of Tourism, the positioned to portion of that efforts of the Development and Province is well get a significant growing market. This is by no means a new trend either. Last year, for example, we experienced a 9.3 per cent increase in tourists visiting the Province from the United States by automobile and a further 3. 4 per cent increase in American tourists travelling here by air. Overall our visitation levels from outside sources in 1985 increased by 2. 8 per cent, with expenditures from the tourist sector approximating $89 million into the Newfoundland economy.

With the aforementioned factors influencing travelling destinations, we anticipate an acceleration in these visitation increases this Summer. While we are concentrating the bulk of our promotional efforts in the United States on the New England States, and Boston in particular, we have experienced significant increases in interest from as far afield as Florida, Wisconsin, Illinois, and so on.

In Canada, there is growing interest in Newfoundland and Labrador vacations from the West, in particular Manitoba, Saskatchewan and the Northwest Territories, and we attribute at least some of this to our increased visibility · created through media exposure at events such as the Grey Cup Parade, where Newfoundland and Labrador participation was widely praised.

The increase in enqu1r1es we are receiving together with these major advertising and promotional initiatives, and what we are experiencing at tourism trade shows that we participate in, such L2156 May 22, 1986 Vol XL as Rendez-vous Canada, indicate that there is definitely more interest in Newfoundland and Labrador vacations. This is certainly good news for the operators of tourist establishments in this Province. It should also positively effect the Summer employment picture in Newfoundland and Labrador.

More tourists mean more new money injected into ·the economy of our Province, and with new money comes new jobs and greater opportunities. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Fortune - Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS: First of all, let me thank the minister for giving me in advance a copy of his statement on tourism.

He certainly correctly identified a number of the factors which make Newfoundland an attractive destination for would-be tourists from the Northeast United States and Eastern Canada, the American dollar, the concerns about terrorism by travelling, involved in travelling overseas, and so on. I am glad to hear and we are glad to hear on this side, about the increase in enquiries. We have never had any doubt on this side, and, I believe, on all sides of this House, that people in other parts would like to come here. That is not the issue.

One issue is what we have to offer them in facilities when they get here, and the other issue is how adequately are we taking appropriate steps to No. 37 R2156

promote Newfoundland so that those who come are not coming out of happenstance only but because they have heard about us through good promotion. The department has taken a number of initiatives that are worthwhile in terms of promoting but, yet, I submit, Mr. Speaker, that the overall approach to tourism development in this Province is archaic at best and in many cases amounts to little more than pompous lip service. I can give you some examples from the very cheap partisan approach that is used in the distribution of promotion items.

A case in point, an Opposition member cannot get a flag to give to a school in his district, yet, the following week a Tory member moves into that same school and presents a flag on behalf of, I suppose, the government. I can give you examples of where members of the Opposition have had to go out and out of their own pockets buy flags to send in response to enquiries from across the country.

We have been on parliamentary delegations together, we have been approached by national teams, and in both cases we see the government members with pocketsful of Newfoundland flag pins and if we want to get them, we have to get a few from the government member to give out. It is that kind of cheap partisanship, Mr. Speaker, which subtracts from our overall effort. Once we are outside this Province we are all, whatever our political label, ambassadors for the Province and we should be given the tools to do the job to the same extent that government members are.

Another suggestion I make to the minister is produce some maps that properly reflect the importance of L2157 May 22, 1986 Vol XL Labrador in the geography of Newfoundland. I suggest to him that they adopt the Liberal policy of making the Gulf ferry an extension of the Trans-Canada Highway in terms of costs of travelling on that ferry. You can have all the promotion in the world, if it is too expensive for the tourist to get here, he ain • t going to come. stop punishing the Bonne Bay area where the business is down because of a very negative initiative on the part of this government.

That booth in North Sydney, Mr. Speaker, is an absolute disgrace; it is tucked away in the corner of the terminal building there, some two bit, second-class, cheap operation. Spend some money and put up a proper chalet there and show a good face for Newfoundland and make it attractive for people to come here. In short, Mr. Speaker, any increases in tourism - MR. BARRY: Have you mentioned the Gulf ferry system? MR. SIMMONS: Yes, I have mentioned the Gulf ferry. Any increase, Mr.

Speaker, in tourism in this Province, any increase in interest in tourism and any increase in tourism dollars that come to this Province are despite, Mr. Speaker, despite, not because of any of the efforts of this particular administration. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Before recognizing the hon. the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Brett) I would like to welcome to the gallery· a former member of the No. 37 R2157

House, Mr. Ray Guy. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Heat", heat"! MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Ministei" of Social Sei"vices. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Heat", heat"! MR. BR ETT : MI". Speakei", han. membei"s will I"ecall that in the I"ecent budget S1Jeech pi"esented by my colleague, the Ministei" of Finance (DI". Collins), I"efei"ence was made to the pi"ovision in the estimates of the Depai"trnent of Social Sei"vices foi" an amount of $145,000 to develop a I"esidential sei"vice foi" physically disabled adults at the OI"ange Horne on Foi"est Road.

Most rnernbei"s of this House is awai"e, I am sui"e, that this horne functioned foi" many years as an excellent shoi"t tei"In I"esidence for people from across the Province who came to St. John's to receive cancer treatment. Since it was no longer required foi" that purpose, the board of dii"ectors carne to government with an offer that the facility be used foi" some other needed community service.

Over the years the department has been called upon to assist in finding or providing accommodations or placements on numerous occasions to younger people with physical disabilities only to have no other alternative to offer except a horne designed and opei"ated foi" elderly people with chronic care needs. Every member of this House is aware, I am certain, of instances of younger individuals who have been most inappropriately residing in such settings foi" extended periods L2158 May 22, 1986 Vol XL of time.

The Orange Horne can, without question, ' and with relatively minor modifications be developed to provide a good service for up to eight people. In addition, being mortgage or debt free, the cost of using the facility to provide a first class service is well within that which we would noi"Inally have to face in establishing such a service.

My purpose today is to provide some additional information with respect to this service for I have had contact with some individuals and groups who have expressed certain anxiety that the establishing of this facility will result in disabled people being relegated in some way with no consideration or attention being given to rehabilitation or independence enhancement efforts. Today, I want to categorically lay to rest any such concern and to ensure all concerned that such is certainly not the case. Indeed, neither the department nor the board of the horne would be satisfied with any such concept.

In the event, however, that there may be others who have such concerns, I want to indicate that although the actual detailed development of the service has just commenced, I am able to indicate that it will be within the following broad objectives or principles:-

(1) Admission to the horne will be based upon carefully designed criteria and will be by application. While it might seem preposterous, there were some people who actually suspected that they would be obliged to leave their present place or residence and move to the horne. No. 37 R2158

(2) The first emphasis of this service will be toward rehabilitation and increased independency. The board will be undertaking to recruit within the near future as co-ordinator of the horne a qualified person with training, background and experience in working with people in the rehabilitation field. Through this person, access to training and · developmental services will be assured -and I am sure that in many cases, increased independent living capability will lead to certain individuals moving to new living environments in the community such as individual or cooperative apartments, etc.

Much has been achieved in this regard by Civic /!4 Transition Horne which is also funded by my department. Number 3, the other dimension to this project to which we are committed is that of a high quality residential service. This involves, among other things, attendant care services, accessibility of transportation to the social, recreational and cultural life of the community. It is based on respect for the dignity and rights of each individual to exercise the highest measure of freedom possible within such a setting. In short, Mr.

Speaker, for those for whom a more independent living arrangement may not be attainable because of certain aspects of their disabilities, it will be a residential service devel~ped around the individualized needs of each resident. In order to facilitate and ensure the development of the service within these principles, the board of the home and the department has agreed to establish a six-member Advisory Progranune Development Committee consisting of three L2159 May 22, 1986 Vol XL representatives of the board and three nominees of the department.

One of the our representatives will be the Assistant Director of Rehabilitation who has spent almost ten years as a rehabilitation councillor with the Department of addition, I chairpersons Directors Organization and the Association Social Services. In have written the of the Boards of of the Consumer of Disabled People Canadian Paraplegic to each appoint a representative. Hon. members know. I am sure, that my department helps fund the activities of these organizations which do excellent work on behalf of disabled people. Others will have an opportunity if they choose to have input through these representatives.

In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, I want to point out that this will be yet another option in the spectrum of services the department is attempting to develop for disabled people. We are currently spending over $1 million per year in special needs to provide individuals with attendant care and other home support services. In addition, we are looking at a proposal for an integrated housing project in which we are hoping to provide attendant care services for more independent disabled people.

I want to assure all concerned that efforts to provide for increased services for the disabled will continue to be a priority of this government. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. No. 37 R2159

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, we thank the minister for supplying us with a copy of his statement. We, · on this side of the House, have recently had a briefing from the member for Bonavista North (Mr. Lush) who has had some personal involvement with the Orange Horne, . the former horne for ·cancer· patients. I believe his parents were involved in managing that horne for a number of years.

With the Health Science Complex addition for a hostel, I guess you would call it, for patients and the families of patients, the Orange Horne has lost the initial reason for which it was set up. I think that what the minister is proposing here is a good idea .

We understand that there are concerns that there not be a tendency back towards institutionalization of the handicapped, but the brutal reality is that at the present time there are handicapped individuals who are in institutions and, as the minister has mentioned, in homes for the aged, in an environment which is very depressing, not very conducive to rehabilitation and not very conducive to a high quality of life. The ideal is, funds penni t ting, to move towards group homes.

Well, the ideal would be, if every patient were able to afford the facilities, the care that would be needed to permit them to operate within their own residences, their own homes. Finances do not always permit that.

In the case of . motor vehicle accidents or other negligence accidents resulting in individuals L2160 May 22, 1986 Vol XL being impaired for the rest of their lives, this is · one of the reasons why the awards in court cases and insurance payments have gone so high recently, that Canadian courts do take the approach these days that the injured party is entitled to be put back, as far as possible, in the condition he or she was before the accident, and that usually involves, if funds permit, money being paid to provide for the necessary type of residence or modifications to existing residence and the necessary attendance, the individuals to help care for those who are handicapped as a result of negligence.

Where we have individuals who are not able to have access to the necessary funds, there is then an obligation upon government to do what it can to try, as far as is possible within the confines of fiscal restraint, financial restraint, to put these individuals in a setting which is conducive to rehabilitation and which gives them a reasonable quality of life. Now, we would ask the minister to keep pushing.

Central Mortgage and Housing, I understand, had a programme at one time - I have not heard too much about it lately - which provided funds, permitted the handicapped access to funds to put into small group homes.

If I understand the minister's statement' we are talking abo "ut approximately eight residents, so we are into, I guess, something that would be a little larger than the normal group home but not that much larger, and if individuals apply, wish to move from a present unsatisfactory setting, then I think they should have the option of moving into a facility like this, even though it is not the ideal, it is not necessarily a No. 37 R2160

small group home or a small residence, as private a residence as individuals might otherwise have. So we support the initiative that has been taken by the minister and his department. We think it is good, and we understand that the minister will still keep an emphasis upon rehabilitation and will not try to put these individuals 'out of sight, out of mind' into an institution and avoid any attempts to integrate them into the community of which they form a part.

By and large, I think with those undertakings by the minister, the matter should be resolved satisfactorily in terms of utilizing the facility that is there and, at minimum cost to government, helping individuals who need assistance. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The bon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, today I am pleased to inform the House that my department intends to lease our government-owned fish processing facility at Brig Bay to Port au Port Seafoods Limited, a processing firm currently operating on the Port au Port Peninsula.

This facility was originally constructed by government at the request of the Canadian Saltfish Corporation to help alleviate a herring quality problem in the area, and today is one of the better facilities on the Northwest Coast. Mr. Speaker, the Brig Bay facility was leased to the Canadian L2161 May 22, 1986 Vol XL Saltfish Corporation as part of its saltfish operation, but the Corporation had to terminate the lease due to difficulties in obtaining a dependable supply of raw material at competitive prices. During the 1985 season, the Brig Bay plant was closed.

Although a number of processors expressed interest in leasing the facility, no· serious applications were made until Apr-il of this year when two formal bids were received. These two applications were given detailed consideration, and a decision was made to offer the lease of the plant to Port au Port Seafoods Limited. Mr. Speaker, Port au Port Seafoods Limited presently have a fish processing operation at Piccadilly on the Port au Port Peninsula, and have excellent access to markets for fresh and frozen groundfish products in the United States.

The company proposes to process a minimum of 100,000 pounds of groundfish daily at Brig Bay, operating two shifts and employing approximately 120 people. It is estimated that another ten to thirty workers will be required during the trap and caplin season, making for a total employment complement of 150 new jobs that did not exist in that area in the past number of years. Mr. Speaker, the new operator is very optimistic that, given their connections and access to markets in the U.S., the Brig Bay operation appears to have considerable potential for the future.

Residents of the Brig Bay area have made representation to government on several occasions concerning a new operator for this plant and we feel certain that they will be very pleased with our decision to lease the facility to No. 37 R2161

Port au Port Seafoods Limited . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for St. Barbe. MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the minister for providing me with · a copy of this statement earlier, I too would like to welcome Port au Port Seafoods to the district of st. Barbe. I would like to congratulate the St. Barbe Development Association and all the various interest groups that did bring foLWard presentations on behalf of the local people there. Mr.

Speaker, this particular plant is being opened after being shut for two long years, and it certainly will give our people in the area, which is an area of high unemployment, a glimmer of hope. I would like of offer my personal congratulations to the minister for his efforts in this regard, particularly for his sensitivity towards these people in an area of high unemployment, the representations I have made to him and the various people in the area who did make representations to him. I congratulate him for his sensitivity in this regard. Had other ministers, Mr.

Speaker, one-tenth the care and sensitivity for the ordinary people of St. Barbe, my district would be a lot better off. For example, on the Bonne Bay ferry, had the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) had as much sensitivity as the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Rideout) has, we L2162 May 22, 1986 Vol XL would see - MR. MARSHALL: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEA KE R: A point of order, the bon . the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, the han. gentleman was quite correct in his description of the Minister of Fisheries and in heaping praise on the Minister of Fisheries.

We all agree with that. But he cannot go into a general debate on everything. He must know that a great majority of the people of Newfoundland would speak in the way that he did about the Minister of Fisheries and about all ministers on this side of the House. Mr. Speaker, he is way beyond the confines of this statement. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I must say taken. The beginning to reply to that MR. FUREY: the point is well han. member was stray away from a statement. Mr. Speaker, illustrating - I was merely MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I would like to remind the han. member his time has now elapsed. MR .

YOUNG: Answer your phone calls boy. MR. BARRETT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicho las): The hon. the Minister of No. 37 R2162

Development. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BARRETT: Mr. brief Speaker, if follow-up I might, to the as a last statement, correct some comments of the han. member for Fortune - Hermitage (Mr. Simmons) in that my department does not supply any flags to anybody for any schools anywhere. I do not know where he might have gotten that indication. Neither do we SU'PPlY in quantity any flag pins or anything to members on this side of the House anymore than we do anywhere else. It is just a matter of correction, Mr. Speaker. I am pleased to announce to the House today, Mr.

Speaker, that Marystown Shipyard Limited have negotiated a contract with Moss Rosenberg V~rft of Norway, which will involve the employment of twenty-two welders from the shipyard at the Moss Rosenberg facilities in Stavanger, Norway. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BARRETT: This agreement, Mr. Speaker, will provide an opportunity for the twenty-two workers from Marystown to have their welding skills upgraded at the Moss Rosenberg Welding School.

Following this training, which is about a two week period, the Newfoundland welders will be employed directly on an offshore project in Norway which will involve work similar to that which will be required on the Hibernia project. This hands on experience will be instrumental in bringing the welding staff of Marystown L2163 May 22, 1986 Vol XL Shipyard up to speed on the intricate techniques and standards involved in major offshore welding projects. The term of employment will be approximately three and a half months for each person, and the first eleven welders will be leaving this Sunday for Norway.

I should also add, that these welders are presently on· lay off at the shipyard, so this arrangement will effectively provide employment for them at a time when they normally would not be working. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Fortune - Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS: Mr.

Speaker, to correct the correction I did not say that his department had given flags, I said that a government member had gone into a school in the last few weeks and presented a flag on behalf of the government in a direct effort to undermine a member on this side who had not been able to get a flag. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMONS: They might acknowledge partisanship, but it is reflected in the latest poll they probably will not about. You may love partisanship but the public not like it. MR. SIMMS: the being which brag the does No. 37 R2163

A point of order, Mr. Speaker. HR. SIMMONS: Yes, kill my time, go ahead. MR. SIMMS: I do not care about your time, what you are saying does not make any difference, anyway. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! A point of Minister of Lands. MR. SIMMS: order, the hon. Forest Resources the and On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, so that there are no unfair accusations made such as those being made by the member for Fortune - Hermitage now, only today I gave his seat mate, his colleague, the member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan), a flag to present to an army cadet cocys out in his district this weekend.

There is no partisanship there. The man asked me if I could get a flag for him and I said I would see if I could, as I have done for my own colleagues. So, I mean, the hon. member for Fertune - Hermitage is talking through his hat. SOME HON. MEMBERS: What? Take it back. Take it back. MR. BARRY: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! To that point of order, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR.

BARRY: It is very interesting that as soon as my colleague gets up and mentions the recent poll that they L2164 May 22, 1986 Vol XL have had over there, which has led to this spate of press releases by ministers, they try to cut him off. Mr. Speaker, the reality is that - MR. MATTHEWS: You will need more than ·a pink shirt to get back. MR. BARRETT: What does his shirt have to do with it? MR. PATTERSON: You will have to wrap yourself up pretty fancy. MR. CALLAN: He likes your shirt. you. Say, thank MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! Order, please! MR. BARRY: Order, please! Mr.

Speaker, no wonder the poll is the way it is. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: We welcome all those remarks by the member for Placentia (Mr. Patterson), and we will see the numbers of the Tories keep plummetting the way they have in recent months. Mr. Speaker, the minister has just indicated the reality of what is happening. I am very happy if he has, in fact, deigned to give a flag to the member for Bellevue through his good graces. Now why was it, Mr.

Speaker, that the Department of Tourism, or the Department of Development, or any other department would not give a flag to certain international athletes who are representing this No. 37 R2164

Province and who did very well, Mr. Speaker, representing this Province? Why would the member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) have to buy them a flag out of his own pocket because there was not a government department that would supply a flag to them? MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! The hon. ·member is getting from the point of order. MR. BARRY: away Mr. Speaker, the point is should members of this House of Assembly have to go and plead with a government minister as to whether or not they are going to get something to promote the interests of this Province? Mr.

Speaker, we have a rotten situation, where they are using . petty patronage and petty politics. And the efforts of the Minister of Tourism to promote . tourism will be undermined as long as this sort of petty politics is exercised by his colleague. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I must rule there is no point of order. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Fortune - Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, if I may now respond to the second statement the L2165 May 22, 1986 Vol XL minister made, the one about the Marystown Shipy~rd.

I want, first of all, to commend the workers. I had an opportunity in recent weeks to talk to most of them over in Stavanger and I got good feedback from them as to their impression of what the programme is doing for them. MR. TOBIN: Well, you should been representing ten years. have, you have them for about MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, does he never stop stop yapping? Does he never yapping at all? PREMIER PECKFORD: He has a lot to say. MR. SIMMONS: I guess he has. If he had a mind how much would he have to say? MR. TULK: Do nnot you mmention polls. MR.

SIMMONS: I guess he comes by it honestly. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! PREMIER PECKFORD: It is more than you can say . MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. SIMMONS: Oh shut up 'Brian' you are making a fool of yourself, boy. You are making a fool of yourself. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! No. 37 R2165

MR. BARRY: Thirty percent in the latest poll, that explains (inaudible). MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I have allowed the hon. member to go on and reply. He had just about a minute and a half but, as far as I can see, he has had no opportunity in that minute and a half to reply so he has a short time left to finish. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I just want to say it is a good training programme. The real test will come, of course, when and if they get the opportunity to put those skills into practice over here, those workers who are about to embark on a trip to Norway as a result of the most recent contract.

The question is, when will we see the Atlantic Accord legislation? The truth of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, that this government cannot get the government in Ottawa, their Tory friends in Ottawa, to give any priority to the Atlantic Accord legislation. That is why it is not before the House of Commons and that is why it is not here. Until they get their heads together on that one, Mr. Speaker, those people can whistle. The real test will come when we get this Atlantic Accord legislation. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SIMMONS: There they go, the trained seals. There they go again.

That is all I wanted to say anyway. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! L2166 May 22, 1986 Vol XL Oral Questions MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Leader Opposition. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: of the Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Premier, in addition to confirming whether in fact his latest poll does confirm him at 33 per cent, whether he has had any recent discussions with Premier Getty and whether the Premier has the same concerns as Premier Getty, with respect to the lack of involvement by the provinces in the free trade negotiations which have commenced? MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, first of all, one of these days I might have to release that poll. The Leader of the Opposition was running behind his party. The Leader of the NDP was running behind his party. I was running ahead of my party, and this party was ahead of the other two. Now that was what the polls said, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: Also, in large areas of this Province the Leader of the Opposition scored 7 per cent. I scored somewhere around 60 per cent. The Leader of the NDP scored somewhere around 30 per cent.

So those are the facts and No. 37 R2166

they have been reconfirmed, Mr. Speaker.. So there is no problem there. MR. SIMMONS: He has seen the enemy and it is him. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! PREMIER PECKFORD: On the more serious question, the Premiers have been discussing the matter of provincial involvement in the trade negotiations with the federal government and are continuing to do so. Last week, as I informed the Leader of the Opposition, members representing this government were in Ottawa to go over with Mr.

Reisman the opening round of negotiations, really preliminary, the agenda i terns, and what the Government of Canada was going to be saying, and all the other provinces were represented. We will now be informed of what happened in the first meetings and we will have other meetings with the federal government. There are some Premiers in Canada who have some concerns about various things dealing with trade. Obviously we do too. We will be making those concerns known to the federal government as we proceed through the negotiations.

But there is an .open policy by the federal government on the question of the trade negotiations where there will be involvement of the provinces, and we are moving ahead nicely. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. L2167 May 22, 1986 Vol XL MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I thank the Premier for that statement, but it was not the answer to the question that I asked. Premier Getty has indicated dissatisfaction, not just with matters related to free trade but with the process, with the lack of provincial involvement.

And I ask the Premier why is it that he is expressing satisfaction with the process, which sees very little in the way of provincial involvement, when the premiers of other provinces, such as the Premier of Ontario and the Premier of Alberta, have indicated that there is not sufficient provincial involvement? Is the Premier continuing to be the lapdog of Ottawa that we have seen him be since the Tories were elected? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I am not a lapdog for anybody, the federal government or anybody else, and never will be. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER PECKFORD: We will take positions on matters national which have a provincial influence. We will oppose when we think it is in the Province's interests to oppose. We will support when we think it is in the Province's interests to support, and so on. That is the way we operate and I think the majority of the people in the Province know that is the way this government operates. We will oppose the Government in Ottawa whenever we think they are doing something that is going to be injurious to this Province, there is no question about that, and we will No. 37 R2167

continue to do it. We make no apologies to anybody for taking that kind of an approach. As it relates to the present trade talks, we are, all of the provinces, with the federal government consulting and discussing right now about ongoing provincial involvement. We have had substantial provincial involvement to date. How much we will have from here on we will see as these talks continue . But to this point in time things have gone very, very well. You know, there was extensive consultation last week before the first meeting and we anticipate that that kind of consultation is going to continue.

If in fact there is something that happens to that process which we do not agree with which shows that we are not having the kind of input we want, we will be the first to let the federal government know. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Leader of the I think, Mr. Speaker, it is the first time in history that we have seen a crackle turn into a lapdog just through a federal election. I would like to ask the Premier- MR . SIMM S: There is not supposed to be a

preamble. HR. DINN: That certainly raises the level of debate in the House. L2168 May 22, 1986 Vol XL MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. BARRY: something when the backbench subsides on the other side, Mr. Speaker. I know they are paining over the recent poll, but · that sort of behaviour is not going to improve their standing . MR. MATTHEWS: We saw the poll. You did not. MR. SPEAKER: Order, ~lease! I do not see why I should have to continually call for members to my left to keep quiet. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I think that the Premier should answer why it is, if he is not a lapdog, we did not hear one word out of him with respect to the free trade video prepared by the Government of Canada which omitted the province of Prince Edward Island altogether· and had Newfoundland included with the United states? Is this just an example of how the Government of Canada is taking this Province for granted since the Premier decided to develop his lapdog ways? MR. TULK: Good guestion! He is not going to answer that. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. BARRY: The Premier is not going to answer that? MR. SPEAKER: No. 37 R2168

The bon. the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Leader' of the MI". Speaker', the PI"emiei" should not let one bad poll completely wipe him out to the extent that he will not get up and answer' a question. MR. SIMMONS: That makes thi"ee. MR. BARRY: Right! This is the thii"d one. MR. SPEAKER: OI"dei", please! MR. TOBIN: A point of ordei", Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Burin-Placentia West. MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, I noticed that you just recently called members of this House on your left to order, and I certainly respect the Chair for doing so.

But I think, at the same time, it is more than appropriate to consider the actions of the Leader of the Opposition and the language of the Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Speaker and the way he is getting on in this House. The fact of the matter is he wants to talk about a poll. Indeed he does, Mr. Speaker, because he has I"efused to show the member's of his caucus the poll that they had done. That is his problem and he is trying to change the tune. Show you caucus members the poll you had done. MR. SPEAKER: Ordei", please! There is no point of order. L2169 May 22, 1986 Vol XL The bon. the Opposition. MR.

BARRY: Leader of the Mr. Speaker, will the Premier answer why is it that other Premiers of Canada are speaking out for their provinces and objecting to the lack of provincial involvement in the free trade negotiations when the Premier in this Province is silent? When is he going to speak out and insist that the Province get proper involvement in the free trade negotiations? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, how does the Leader of the Opposition work?

I have not heard anything from the leader of the government of British Columbia, Premier Bennett, who is a Premier in Canada, and I do not think he has said anything. I do not think Premier Pawley has said anything, I do not think Premier' Devine has said anything, I do not think Premier Bourassa has said anything, I do not think the new Liberal Premier of PEI has said anything. · I spoke to all nine of them a few days ago. As Chairman of the Premiers• group in the last number of days I have been in constant contact - talked to the External Affairs Minister' (Mr. Clark) and the Trade Minister (Mr.

Kelleher) - with the Government of Canada. There ai"e two Premiers, apparently, who said something. I do not know what Mr. Getty said. I heard Mr. Peterson's comments on TV the other night. Mr. Peterson said he is not pleased with the format or it is mismanaged or something. Well, that is something that a Liberal Premier, I guess, would say about a PC federal government, I suppose. No. 37 R2169

I do not know exactly what words Mr. Getty used. I have not heard the Liberal Premier of PEI, or Mr. Buchanan, or Mr. Hatfield, so if you want to talk about numbers there are more premiers who have said nothing than have said something and that is primarily because, and Mr. Ghiz, I think, was the Premier who mentioned this, until our process is completed with the federal government, the Trade Minister and the External Affairs Minister as to how these trade negotiations are going to proceed, we are not going to say anything.

And then if that process does not turn out, next week '?r two weeks from now, to be the one that the provinces have agreed, by the way, collectively it should be, then that is the time for us to speak up and say, "This is wrong, federal government. We are not going along with this approach because it is injurious to the provinces," or ,.·we do not have enough consultation." But I am not going to sabotage that today. I am not going to play that kind of a role.

I will attack the federal government on the whole question of their process on trade if, in fact, as we go down the road and keep talking to the ministers and keep talking to the kind of involvement we had last week, and if this continues, then if something happens to subvert that kind of legitimate process where the provinces are involved, then Mr. Mulroney and the rest of the people in Ottawa will hear from Brian Peckford. No problem! MR . SI MM ONS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Fortune-Hermitage. L2170 May 22, 1986 member for Vol XL MR. SIIiMONS: Mr.

Speaker, in the absence of the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies (Mr. Power), I want to direct a question to the Premier on the subject of the University Extension Service, the offices to be closed in Marystown and Stephenville, and I understand that there are plans afoot to close the remaining offices in the next year or so, which would eliminate completely the field serves function that the university has so well performed over the years in Newfoundland.

Now I am quite aware of academic freedom and of the prerogative of the university to set its agenda and so on, and I am not particularly interested in a dialogue on that subject, but taking that into account, I wonder would the Premier indicate to the House whether he is concerned about those closures and, in particular, whether he has any initiatives planned or already taken that might forestall the closing of those centres? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD : No, Mr. Speaker, I do not have anything under consideration as it relates to that.

We provide money to the university, this year a 14 per cent increase, larger than in any other sector of the budget estimates. Fourteen per cent in total was the increase, a very, very large increase. Then it is up to the President, the Board of Regents, the Senate and so on to establish their priorities with the amount of money we give them, and we do not intend to interfere in their internal decision making. MR. K. AYLWARD : No. 37 R2170

Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Stephenville. · MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to direct this question, in the absence of the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe), to the Premier of the Province. We now have deregulation corning into existence in this Province. Air Nova has decided to start a business and they have also decided to leave two major centres out of their routes of transportation. I would like to ask the Premier, the First Minister, what concerns he has with this as to the services provided?

Deregulation is supposed to bring in better service and improved service. I would like to have his response to that, because right now it looks as if it is going to be a downgrading. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier . PREMIER PECKFORD: Well, the overall deregulation process has not seen a downgrading in the Province with Air Atlantic now operating with three, I think, Dash 7s or Dash 8s, and they are to get another later on in the Summer. I think the frequency of flights, as well as the convenience in time of the flights have been much improved.

And now, when you add Air Nova to it, you are going to have a much better service overall. So I do not think the comments of the hon. member imply that deregulation meant less service, it has meant more service. But what the hon. member is talking about is that L2171 May 22, 1986 Vol XL Air Atlantic has spread its centres where· it is going to go with its flights, into so many - MR. K. AYLWARD I am talking about Air Nova . PREMIER PECKFORD: Just one second now! I know what I am talking about. MR. K. AYLWARD: Do you? PREMIER PECKFORD: Yes. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

PREMIER PECKFORD: Air Atlantic is into a whole number of areas, both in the Province and in the Maritimes. They are landing in Stephenville, Deer Lake, Gander, St. John's, Goose Bay and so on. And now, Air Nova comes along, a second commuter airline. We already have one which is providing more frequent service and more convenient time service. Now, on top of that, we have Air Nova corning in as a competitor who have outlined where they are going to land and not land.

And it is with the Air Nova schedule, as I understand it, that the member for Stephenville has some concerns because they are not going to land in Stephenville or . Gander when they start up. So the members for Stephenville and Gander are concerned. I imagine the member for Stephenville has already written Air Nova about it and talked to them about it, and the member for Gander (Mr. Baker) has written Air Nova, and I would like to have copies of their letters, if I could, to write them myself. MR. TULK: No. 37 R2171

You do? Is your letter writing machine working? MR. PECKFORD: Now, Air Nova has said, as I understand it just from the news, because the Minister of Transportation is not here, that they are going to begin in these centres. They are not saying that they will not be going into Stephenville or Gander sometime after they get started. They may be going in there. So it may be too early to put a final judgement on the question of whether, in fact, Stephenville and Gander are going to be served by Air Nova. As I understand it, Gander and .

Stephenville are now being served by Air Atlantic and, of course, they want to be served by Air Nova and, if somebody else comes in, they want to be served by that airline, and if a fifth airline comes in they want to be served as well, and a sixth airline and so on - MR. AYLWARD: Do not get ridiculous now. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! PREMIER PECKFORD: - which is only fair for those members representing those areas.

So I will have to check with the Minister of Transportation and see what kind of talks he has had with Air Nova and whether in fact they do have some plans, after they get in business, after a number of months, to also add Stephenville and Gander to their list because obviously those are important centers and are now being serviced by one airline, and why not be serviced by the other. So I will have to take the matter under advisement. But I do want to say the hon. member that I think air L2172 May 22, 1986 Vol XL service in the Province has improved overall.

The fact that Air Nova, as a second airline, is not now going in at the beginning to service Stephenville and Gander may be a problem, but we are not sure · yet that it is. I will take it under advisement and talk to the Minister of Transportation about it. MR. K. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Stephenville. MR. K. AYLWARD: Would the First Minister or the Premier explain this: At the present time Air Atlantic has one flight in and out of Stephenville and forty seats. That is a total downgrading of service to the West Coast as far as I am concerned.

The rates have even gone up higher, and it is a total downgrading of service. Since you are the government and you are managers of the Province, Mr. Premier, I would like to ask you, what do you know about any proposed moves by Air Nova to service Stephenville and to service Gander as deregulation is supposed to be competitors competing against each other, not one monopolizing the market? I would like to know what your position is on that. You do not have to worry about our representation. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, first of all the hon. member starts off his question with a

preamble which tends to suggest to everybody here that we have complete control and No. 37 R2172

management over the airline business in Newfoundland. He said, 'You are the Premier. You are the manager of the Province.' I 1 as Premier 1 and the Cabinet of Newfoundland have complete and absolute jurisdiction, I am told, over the airline business. Thef:e is no question, there is no other implication.

Now I know the hon. · member is a new member, I know he does. not know a whole lot about everything to do with the split jurisdictions between Newfoundland and Ottawa and so on, but would he please learn, if he is representing an airport town, that the federal government has the major responsibility as it relates to airline business in Canada. We do not. Unfortunately we do not. We can make representation. We can take his concerns into consideration.

I said in my last answer I wi 11 take the hon. member's concerns, I will sit down with the Minister of Transportation, see what talks he has had with Air Nova, and see what we can do to arrest the situation. As I know, Air Nova themselves have said publicly that they may be going into Stephenville a little bit later. It might be a financial problem for them to get started first and then they can move into the other areas. But I appreciate the hon. member's question, I appreciate his concern, and I will take it up with the Minister of Transportation at the earliest opportunity. MR. K.

AYLWARD: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. the member for Stephenville. L2173 May 22, 1986 Vol XL MR. K. AYLWARD: This is the same Premier who, if there were a Liberal Government in Ottawa bringing in deregulation, he would have been battling long ago and, as a matter of fact, it would not happen here in Newfoundland because he would have fought it tooth and nail.

Now, would the Premier just tell us - and I appreciate his lecture and I will try to learn from the great wisdom that he has - is he going to make any commitment to check this out so that proner service is brought to the people of Stephenville and the people of Gander, and let other competitors come in and make sure that there is no downgrading and there is no monopolizing of the market? Would he do that? Would he make sure that he will do that?

I appreciate it very much and so would the people of Stephenville, so would the people of Gander and the people of the West Coast of Newfoundland and Labrador, and also the people of the Province, who are getting nailed by deregulation, as his government will not fight the federal government on it because there are Tories in Ottawa? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I do not know where the bon. member stands. I take it from what he has said that he opposes deregulation, and the Liberal Party of Newfoundland oppose deregulation.

That is what the hon. member just said in his statement. They are against deregulation and allowing companies to come in and monopolize business. Deregulation No. 37 R2173

means that there will be no monopoly. Deregulation means that anybody can get into the business. They still have to be licenced by the federal government. So the hon. member on the one hand is for deregulation and on the other hand he against deregulation. I do not know where he is coming from. It is very hard to say. Then he goes on to say, 'Make a commitment to make representation.' I have given that already in the two previous answers.

I said I will take the hon. member's concerns representing Stephenville, also the concerns from Gander, and I will sit down with the Minister of Transportation, go over what kind of meetings he has had with Air Nova, what their plans are in the short-term, medium-term, long-term, and try to ensure that Stephenville and Gander get plugged into that system with that second air line. I am going to do that at the earliest opportunity. I said that in my previous answer.

I say it again - is the hon. member listening? - I will take your concerns to the Minister of Transportation as soon as I get an opportunity to see him, and then move them onto Air Nova and see what their plans are so that your area of the Province is protected. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Twillingate. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Rideout) and it concerns the recently announced early closing of the salmon fishery.

Has the minister made representation to L2174 May 22, 1986 Vol XL his federal counterpart with a view to having the government compensate fishermen in Newfoundland whose livelihood will be affected by virtue of the early closing of the salmon fishery this year? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, I believe the hon. gentleman asked this same question a couple of days ago. MR. W. CARTER: No, I did not. MR. RIDEOUT: At that indicated particular to him time I that this Province took a definitive position against the early closing of the Fall salmon fishery. MR.

SIMMONS: You lost. MR. RIDEOUT: Well, Mr. Speaker, it is better to have tried and lost than not have tried at all. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is that the federal government feels that in order to be able to make strides in the international negotiations on the conservation of salmon they need to have the support of the United States, and the price of that support, as I explained to this House a couple of days ago, was that there had to be a demand for an earlier closing season on Atlantic salmon to October 15.

I indicated at that time that we did not support the federal government No. 37 R2174

in that regard, because we believe the commerical salmon fishermen of this Province have already paid the price, we do not believe they should be asked to pay any further price and, yes, Mr. Speaker, we have said to the federal government 1 that if you are going to support that kind of policy then we expect you to put your money where your mouth is.' MR. W. CARTER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. t:he member for Twillingate. MR. W. CARTER: I wonder, Mr.

Speaker, will the minister ask his federal counterpart to try and rationalize his actions in restricting the season for Atlantic salmon fishermen, affecting, as it does, the livelihood of a lot of Newfoundlanders? How can they rationalize that position with the recently announced cuts in their budget, the reduction of surveillance, for example, of the offshore, and of river wardens? The result will be, of course, that what they will save in one area, Mr. Speaker, they will lose in poaching in the other one. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr.

Speaker, the hon. gentleman will recall, and if he cannot I will refresh his memory, that when he talks about all of the Newfoundlanders who are going to be affected by the earlier closing date, the fact of the matter is that there are a number of fishermen, who should not be affected, along the East and Northeast Coast of this Province. L2175 May 22, 1986 Vol XL The fact of the matter is that the total amount of salmon landed in that period is somewhere between two and five tons of salmon.

It is not a lot of salmon but it is important to the people who live in Brent • s Cove and Harbour Deep and the rest of · the places along the Northeast Coast, and that is why we took the position that we did. Perhaps the han. gentleman, in a·sking that kind of question, would also like to compliment the federal minister for the extra money that he is now putting into surveillance and hiring extra people to surveil the offshore stocks, for example. We heard the criticism, Mr. Speaker, but we do not hear the praise. And we have already indicated - MR. TULK: Praise what? Praise what? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.

RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, when somebody on this side of the House was yapping a while ago, Your Honour was very quick to ask us to be quiet so that they could be heard. I would assume that that applies to the gentlemen on the other side as well. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I have indicated to the han. gentleman's colleague in this House, I believe it was earlier this week, that we have at the present time made some suggestions to the federal government how together, the Province and the federal government, utilizing the resources that we are both deploying .in enhancement, surveillance and the preservation of wildlife and fish and game in No. 37 R2175

this Province, can perhaps do a better job if we put our heads together, Mr. Speaker, so that the resource out there can better be protected. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the bon. the member for Twillingate. MR. W. CARTER: Again I say to the minister, the increase referred to ~n his answer, Mr. Speaker, is in fact a 10 per cent reduction this year in the number of game wardens and river wardens, and a 5 per cent ,decrease, not to mention the inflationary factor, on offshore surveillance. Would the minister not agree then, Mr.

Speaker, and maybe remind his federal counterpart, that Newfoundland fishermen, especially the fishermen of my district, Twillingate district, and his district, should not be asked to balance the fedeeral budget on their backs? That is what they are doing now. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr.

Speaker, the increase I referred to in the answer I just gave the bon. gentleman was in fact a real increase in the number of people who are deployed on offshore surveillance in Newfoundland and Labrador, was in fact the number of flying hours purchased from D and D for extra surveillance offshore, was in fact, Mr. Speaker, more money over and above last year in the budget this year for surveillance offshore. L2176 May 22, 1986 Vol XL r MR. TULK: Not true. MR. W. CARTER: Not true is right. MR. RIDEOUT: I call that progress, Mr. Speaker. MR. BAKER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Gander. MR.

BAKER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. A question for the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Doyle). The minister yesterday announced $800,000 for the town of Gander from the Department of Municipal Affairs. I would like to ask him if this means that $800,000 is being made available to the town of Gander to install hydrodynamic separators, or is this, in fact, overstated by $200,000 and in fact only $600,000 is being made available to the town of Gander from the Department of Municipal Affairs. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. DOYLE: Mr.

Speaker, I think I made it perfectly clear to the han. gentleman yesterday in the announcement that the $800,000 that we were announcing would be cost-shared between the municipality of Gander and the Government of Newfoundland and the extra $900,000 that would be required would be a federal contribution. But the $800,000 is a cost-shared arrangement the municipality and Government of Newfoundland. No. 37 beween the R2176

MR. BAKER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Gander. MR. BAKER: In light of the fact that the ' minister says in his statement that this announcement was made in order to get an early start on the projects mentioned, I would like to ask the minister if the town of Gander can now immediately start this project and start to spend that ~oney? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. DOYLE: Mr. Speaker, as the bon. gentleman also is aware, that will be contingent upon the availability of federal funds.

Now our funding is in place to provide the hydrodynamic separators for the Town of Gander, it has been there for the last year or so, but whether or not these funds will be spent will be conditional upon the availability of federal funds. When the federal funds aFe put in place the $800,000 are there to be used. MR. BAKER: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the bon. the member for Gander. MR. BAKER: Is the minister saying that once the $900,000 from the federal government is spent, then he will release the $600,000? Is that what he is saying? And if so, Mr.

Speaker, why then is the announcement made so that an early start can be gotten on the project L2177 May 22, 1986 Vol XL if in fact the $900,000 has to be spent first? MR. SPEAKER: The ho ·n. the Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. DOYLE: Mr. Speaker, the cost of the entire project will be somewhere between $1.5 million and $1.7 million. And in order to go ·ahead with that project the Department of Municipal Affairs has put up $800,000, cost-shared between the Municipality of Gander and the Government of Newfoundland.

Now, as soon as the federal funding has been put in place, naturally that $800,000 will kick in and will be used in conjunction with the federal funds. Now I certainly do not know at this point in time when this federal funding will be available, but hopefully it will be available in the not too distant future and this particular project can get underway. The Town of Gander knows we have a commitment to that project, we announced it last year. This a reconfirmation of the fact that our funds are in place to address that particular sewerage problem that Gander is having. MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: There is just time for a short question and answer. The bon. the member for St. Barbe. MR. FUREY: A short question, Mr. Speaker, for the Minister of Mines (Mr. Dinn) . I would like to ask if the minister could tell the House the status of the proposal made to government by Tech Corporation No. 37 R2177

with respect to the hydro subsidization for the Newfoundland zinc mine at Daniel's Harbour? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. DINN: I thank the hon. member for his question. Basically what happened there was we received a request about a month later than it should have normally come in. We got it through the manager of the mine, Mr. He\vett. It was sent from the Vice-President of Tech Corporation but it never did arrive in a government department, neither my department nor that of the hon. the President of the Council. So we eventually received a request.

Some of the figures in the requests were inaccurate so we had to go to Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro to confirm the figures and we eventually found out what the correct figures were. We then took that, did an assessment, and it is in the government process now. Government has not made a decision but I expect a decision will be made shortly on the request from Tech Corporation. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The time for Oral Question has elapsed. Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees MS VERGE: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the Minister of Justice.

MS VERGE: L2178 May 22, 1986 Vol XL Mr. Speaker, I think it is appropriate under this heading for me, as Minister responsible for the office of our Legislative Counsel and as required by

Section 18 of the Statutes and Subordinate Legislation Act, to lay before the House a copy of subordinate legislation that has been filed under that act. So I now table the editions of the Newfoundland Gazette published between October 22, 1985 and May 9 of this year, 1986. Notices of Motion MS VERGE: Mr. Speaker. MR., SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice. MS VERGE: Mr.

Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce the following bills: "An Act To Amend Anomalies And Errors In The Statute Law" and "An Act To Amend The Motor Carrier Act." Answers to Questions for which Notice has been Given PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe), who not in his seat today, I just want to answer in the House questions asked yesterday by the Opposition directed at the Minister of Transportation No. 37 R2178

concerning the role of TerraTransport in the Province. The question concerned TerraTransport trucking operations in the Province which they said were about to be sold. I would just like to inform hon. members that this is untrue. CN Route is being sold and CN Route is not in Newfoundland. There are thirty employees of CN Express or parcels who work for TerraTransport but CN Route is not in the · Province and that is what is being sold, not TerraTransport or anything to do with it. Orders of the Day MR.. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The han. the President of Council. MR.. MARSHALL: Order 3, Mr.

Speaker. I move the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole to consider certain bills, Mr. Speaker. On motion, that the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. Committee of the Whole MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! Bill No. 20. Shall clause 1 carry? MR.. MARSHALL: This is a long Bill. MR. TULK: What bill is it, 'Bill'? MR.. MARSHALL: L2179 May 22, 1986 Vol XL This is the Corporations Act. There are five hundred-odd sections here. There are no amendments to the Bill, Mr. Chairman, and if it is in ord 'er, I move that Sections 1 to 524 inclusive carry.

Motion, that the Committee report having passed a bill, "An Act To Revise And Reform The Law Respecting Corporations," without amendment, carried. (Bill No. 20) MR.. MARSHALL: Order 4, Bill No. 3. MR.. CHAIRMAN: Shall clause 1 carry? MR. TULK: A point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: I think the Minister of Justice (Ms. Verge) had indicated to the Leader of the Opposition that there were going to be certain changes in this Bill. Were there any changes made from the original draft of the the Corporations Act, the one that was just passed? MR.

CHAIRMAN: The han. the Minister of Justice. MS VERGE: As I have explained to the Leader of the Opposition - perhaps he would like to take his seat - the Corporations Act Bill which we just dealt with is essentially the same as the draft act that he prepared in the mid-seventies and that then became a White Paper which was published and which was given to a Select Committee of this House who encouraged comment on it from individuals and groups in the Province. Partially in No. 37 R2179

response to some of the input to the Select Committee, there were a few changes made from the original draft. Those changes are relatively minor and do not alter the p~inciple, the p~inciple being basically the same as the p~inciple underlying the

Canada Business Corporations Act and the Ontario Act. Among the few changes that we~e made, as I mentioned when I spoke during debate on second reading, is a removal of the ~equirment for a solicitor to be involved in the corpo~ation of a company. ?resumabiy many investors in corporations will chose, for various reasons, to have solicitors but this Bill no longer makes ·it absolutely essential fo~ a solicitor to be involved in an incorporation, and in that respect our Bill is the same as the federal act, which has been working quite satisfactorily for ten years or so now.

There are a few other minor changes, but the principle is the same as that in the bill which was the handiwork of the Leader of the Opposition and the Senior Legislative Counsel of a few years back. MR. TULK: Mr. Chairman, to that point of order. MR. CHAIRMAN: To that point of order, the hon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the ministe~ would give us a listing in writing before we get to third reading? We do not want to have to debate this bill at thi~d reading, but if we have to, of course, we will.

I wonder if you could supply the Leader of the Opposition with a listing of the changes that have been made from L2180 May 22, 1986 Vol XL the original draft? MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Minister of Justice. MS VERGE: Mr. Chairman, yes, . I wi 11 be happy to p~ovide that list of the various changes in the Corporation's Bill before us, from the White Paper, to the Opposition before thi~d reading. MR. MARSHALL: Order 4, Bill No. 8. A oill, Justices "An Act And ro Amend The Other Public Authorities (Protection) (Bill No. 8) Act." Motion, that the Committee report having passed the bill without amendment, carried.

A bill, "An Act To Queen's Counsel Act." 13) MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Amend The (Bill No. The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, there is a slight amendment to Clause 1. I will propose the amendment and the minister will speak to it and give the reasons for it. I move that Bill No. 13 be amended by adding immediately after Clause 1 a new

section 1 (1).

Section 2 of the said act is further amended by adding immediately after subsection 4 the following: Subsection 5, notwithstanding subsection 4, a person may be appointed under this

section if that person has an accumulation of at least ten years standing at the No. 37 R2180

bar of the Province and the bar of another pt"ovince." The explanation I am given het"e is that this amendment would pr-ovide that the minimum qualification of a person eligible for appointment as Queen's Counsel is an accumulation of ten years standing at the bar- of the Pr-ovince or­ anothet" pr-ovince of Canada. I think that is self-explanator-y. That is in ordet". I pr-opose the amendment. MR. BARRY: t-!r. C11airman . MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. Opposition. MR.

BARRY: the Leader of the The position of our party has been stated in that we feel that the time has come to consider- whether­ it is any longer- appt"opriate to engage in the issuing of these honorary titles. Over- time, their histor-ical significance has lessened and the position is that we feel that the gr-anting of Queen's Counsels should no longer be done. If government is not pr-epared to accept that basic change in pr-inciple, as far- as the amendments that are pt"oposed, they are reasonable under the pr-esent system. No response? MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman. MR..

CHAIRMAN: The han. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: No, Mr. Chairman, I just moved the amendment. I think the hon. gentleman just got up to make a point. I think we can pr-opose the amendment. L2181 May 22, 1986 Vol XL On motion, amendment, cat"ried. On motion, Clause (1) as amended, cart"ied. !1otion, that the Committee r-eport having passed a bill, "An Act To Amend The Queen's Counsel Act", with amendment, carr-ied. (Bill No. 13). A bill, "An Act To Amend The Law Society Act, 1977". (Bill No. 11). Motion, that the Committee r-eport having passed the bill without amendment, car-ried. A bill,

An Act To Amend The Department of Justice Act". (Bill No. 7). Motion, that the Committee repor-t having passed the bill without amendment, carried. A bill, "An Act To Amend The Depar-tment of Envir-onment Act." (Bill No. 3). MR. BARRY: Can we slow it down , a little bit befor-e we end up passing the Order­ Paper- and The Globe and Mail? Bill No. 3. This is

an Act To Amend The Depar-tment Of Environment Act. We would like, befor-e this bill passes, some explanation fr-om the Minister- of Environment (Mr. Butt) with r-espect to - the Minister- of Envir-onment should be her-e, his act is going thr-ough. DR. COLLINS: He is listening in outside. MR. BARRY: Maybe the minister- can hear- us in the common r-oom. Befot"e we pass this act we would like the ministet" to tell us what is the No. 37 R2181

position of his department with respect to these municipalities where money is not · available through the Department of Municipal Affairs, or the Council does not have the funds to do the work itself, and where conditions of ra\v sewage, places, or other health existing. we have in some hazards to mind. in my own Scio-Bell I took in Now, Non·is Point comes We have a situation down district of Mount Island, an area that from the minister's district which may be, I am not sure, I have not had the opportunity yet to determine, but it may be modified by the funds that were made available to the Town of Para .dise, as announced yesterday.

I think the example is a good one so as to deal with the principle. There we have a situation where the council, as I understand it, had a certain priority as to where 'funding should go and I think that they were looking at the money being spent to open up area for development.

Whereas we had another area of the community where older residents of the town had inadequate sewerage disposal facilities and, in fact, we have a hazard to health from raw sewerage in certain areas down there. At what point does the minister feel that his departmental responsibility arises and despite the priority that might be set by the Department of Municipal Affairs, at what point does the minister step in and inform his departmental officials that they have to take certain action to avoid a health hazard arising or continuing to exist in a community? DR. COLLINS: A point of order, Mr. Chairman.

L2182 May 22, 1986 Vol XL MR. CHAIRMAN (Greening): A point of order, the han. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, in Committee of the Whole, the debate is supposed to centre on the precise provisions in the act before us. Now the han. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry) is getting into a much broader area; he has really nothing to do, precisely anyway, with the provisions in this amendment.

So, if the han. minister wishes to speax, he speaks by leave of the Comrni t tee and I am sure. he would have no difficulty doing that, but this would be a courtesy to the Leader of the Opposition on the part of the minister and on the part of other members of the Committee. Strictly speaking, he is out of order in asking these questions. MR. BARRY: To that point of order, Mr . Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: To that point of order, the han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR.

BARRY : If I could refer the minister to the bill: "Where pollution occurs and the person or municipal authority that the Minister considers responsible for the occurrence of the pollution fails to do" certain things, then a fine may be imposed. This is directly on point here. We are talking about imposing fines or increasing the fine that might be imposed on a person or a municipal authority. I have yet to see the minister, this wishy washy pollution minister, I have yet to see him step in and tell his colleague, the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Doyle) to No. 37 R2182

loosen up the purse strings and do something to see that the health hazard in a municipality is corrected. He has not done it in Norris Point. He has not done it in Benton where they have a situation whet"e they have a plant thet"e but, as I undet"stand it, the municipality cannot affot"d to pay the cost of opet"ating it. MR. BUTT: Mr. Speaket". DR. COLLINS: By l9ave. by l~ave . MR. CHAIRMAN: The han . Environment. the Minister of the MR. BUTT: Mt". Chairman, I will gladly respond to the Leadet" of the Opposition's (Mr . Barry) questions. The reason why municipalities are singled out in

section 39 (1) of the proposed amendments is it will enable, for example, the Department of the Environment to go into a municipality, clean up aftet" a polluter, whethet" that is a pt"ivate individual, a corporation or the municipality itself, if it does not have the funds or the resources to do it. It will enable the Department of the Environment to go in there and to clean it up and to then bill the individual or corporate polluter responsible. That is the sole purpose for that.

Just let me address a couple of other questions that are really not t"elevant to this but just to set the Leader of the Opposition stt"aight on a few things. He mentioned a couple of prime examples in using Fogo, Gander and Nards Point. L2183 May 22, 1986 Vol XL To be specific, I wrote in support of a secondary tt"eatment plant for Gander. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition will note that the Minister of Municipal Affait"s (Mr. Doyle) announced that pt"oject yesterday. I Wt"ote in support of the people of Not"ris Point. The hon.

Leadet" of the Opposition will note that yesterday the Minister of Municipal Affairs addressed that as well. I wrote the Minister of Munici?al Affairs on behalf of the people of Fogo and that is being addt"essed. So, contt"ary to what the Leader of the Opposition said, in every single case that he names where I wrote in support of that municipality - and I see the Opposition House Leader (Mr. Tulk) nodding his head - in fact, the Minister of Municipal Affairs responded in kind. The funds have been put in place and they have been announced. So, contrary to what the Leader of the Opposition has said, Mr.

Chairman, I think that we have been very effective in our representation to the Department of Municipal Affairs to provide funding. That is the funding agency. The Department of the Envit"onment is the regulatory agency in this case and the Department of Municipal Affairs is the funding agency. There have been other requests come in to me which I have responded to and, in fact, I am sut"e that as soon as the Minister of Municipal Affairs is in a position to do so and has Cabinet approval, there will be othet" announcements forthcoming that will address other concerns raised by bon. members. Thank you.

No. 37 R2183

MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN (Greening): The bon. the member for -Fortune - Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS: l-It'. Chairman, we supported and do support the principle of the bill, but now that the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) wants us to be very specific, let me be very specific about the provisions in this bill. The bill would increase the fines in the case of individuals to one thousand dollars from one hundred.

I submit to the minister that while we have no objection to this new scale of fines, the real problem is not so much the size of the fine as lack of enforcement, and I give him a very particular example. That heretofore lovely stt"etch of four-lane highway just going outside St. Johrt' s - I say heretofore because it has been littet"ed so badly that there is not a ten foot space out there without a chicken box Ot" a milk carton stt"ewn around. I drove out there last weekend, and just within my view as I was driving past people, I saw three people fling objects from the window, paper food wrappings, I presume.

The problem, I say to him, is that there is nobody policing it in an active manner, and those persons, I submit, whom I saw throw the wrappers from the window would have stopped doing so in the face of a $100 fine, let alone a $1,000 fine, but they will not stop it whether it is $100, $1,000 or $10,000 as long as the word is out there there is nobody doing anything about this anyway. There is no enfot"cement.

L2184 May 22, 1986 Vol XL Now, I undet"stand that the enforcement may not directly come under his auspices, but he might want to speak to it or indicate to the Committee ~hethet" he sees this as a problem and what steps are going to be taken to rectify the pt"oblem. I see that, Mr. Chairman, as the essential problem here.

There is no enforcement and there is an attitude in this Province - and I am a Newfoundlander born and bred, so I can say it without appearing to be condescending or pointing the finger elsewhere - Y.re have an attitude that as long as it is not immediately our own private property, we can litter it up. It is amazing what people will do by way of littering. On public beaches and in public washrooms, I have seen people do things that they would never do on their' own pt"emises. It is amazing what they will do in the name of the general public that they would not be caught dead doing in theit" own name.

It is amazing, and they need some education. Perhaps the fit"st item of education they need is something that would focus their minds. You need some enforcement and that would be the best possible means of publicizing this new scale of finds. I refet" members of the Committee to a news report this morning coming out of Toronto I believe, in which a company had been convicted sixty-nine times on a pollution charge - I believe dumping some kind of pollutant into the the sewer system sixty-nine times they have been convicted of the same charge ovet" the past four or five years as I understand.

So yesterday the judge, in handing down sentence, not only fined the firm but sentenced the pt"esident, in absentia - he is in United States No. 37 R2184

at the moment pr-ison. to a year- in Now. I will not get into the mer-its as to the stiffness or- the easiness of the sentence and the fine, that is not my point. My point is that that one case will send acr-oss this countr-y. acr-oss Ontar-io in this particular case, a much str-on:ger signal than any amount of debate in this House or any amount of ads in a paper- will do.

I ask the minister- would he indicate to the Conunittee whether­ he shares t~e concern that I have voiceri and whe1:her- he can appr:-ize the House or:- the Conuni t tee of any new initiatives such as stepped up enforcement that is being contemplated or:- being planned to deal with this particular concern that I have noted? MR. BUTT: Mr-. Chair-man. MR. CHAIRMAN (Greening): The bon. the Minister- of the Envir-onment. MR. BUTT: Mr. Chair-man, the member- raises a vaiid point about enfor:-cement. It is a pr-oblem, of course, not only in this Pr-ovince but all across the countr-y.

It is one we are trying to addr-ess in a number of different ways and by increasing fines it does act as a deterrent. Setting a higher fine, I think, in the final analysis will help because the fines that has been levied on polluter-s by the cour-ts here in the Pr-ovince and. indeed, across the countr-y, on occasion at least, reflects what has been the minimum, not maximum fines. I think increasing minimum fines will be reflected in judgements that come down.

Now on the whole ar-ea of L2185 May 22, 1986 Vol XL enforcement, · it is not str-ictly related to this bill because these two amendments are r-eally being offered to the House for- passage because of problems that has arisen in the past mainly when · dealing with people involved in hydrocar-bons, oil and so on, and the pr-oblems that we have had with oil companies. If hon. members will note today in The Evening Telegram ther:-e was an ar-ticle in there wher-e we had a successful court case against an oil company. We are winning a few and we are making them more envir-onmen1:aiiy consc1ous.

We have . availed of conununi ty development people. They are used quite successfully, par:-ticular:-ly r-ight now on the West Coast of the Pr-ovince. It is not solving the problem with people discarding paper or chip bags out on the medium out in a highway. which continues to be a problem - and I cer:-tainly agr:-ee that it is a pr:-oblem - but on the West Coast of the Pr:-ovince right now, through the Conununi ty Development Program we have put in place temporary envir:-onment officers, if you like, that have worked very successfully.

Last year, for:- example, in the Bay of Islands ar:-ea they cleaned up about 80 per cent of wrecks and refuge in that area because we went in and did an assessment after, which was quite significant. We have enlar-ged on that programme this year to take in right fr-om St. Anthony down to Port aux Basques and as far:- East as Deer Lake, that takes care of the West Coast

section and that has already been announced by the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Brett). who funds that particular pr:-ogramme. It continues to be a problem and I have said it many No. 37 R2185

times in many circles. I think that the younger generation of Newfoundlanders now coming up are perhaps a lot more environmentally conscious than their parents. It is probably an appropriate time as well, although I am straying a little bit, to commend the St. John's Roman Catholic School Board who have implemented an environmental programme into their school curriculum. Besides their classroom studies, they are now taking the children involved in this curriculum programme to Brother Brennan Park up on Salmonier Line where they teach it in a very natural environment, out in the bush or in the woods, if you like.

I think, as times goes on, with some encouragement and some help as well from government and municipalities, because the environment is · everybody's business, that we will get more people involved in this. I think that the key to it in the end is a good educational programme. It is perhaps very significant to point out that indeed at least one board has embarked on this programme. I hope others will come on stream in the near future.

It is an excellent programme for the young people and, as I have said, it is the young people in the Province who we have to look to for the future if we are going to maintain and improve on the environmental outlook in the Province. When you compare Newfoundland to the Province of other Maritime provinces, sister provinces right in the area, for example, I think we have a lot more papers and things like that discarded but yet we have virtually no pollution as compared to New Brunswick in our water, for example.

Those people have indeed polluted themselves to L2186 May 22, 1986 Vol XL death with their water up there and it is going to take millions and millions of dollars to clear it up. Now we do have some isolated --Pt"Oblems here but, in fact, most of our water', even driving along the Trans-Canada Highway, the t"ivers that cross it, you can put your head down in it, as I have done many times, and dt"ink it and it is quite good. Mt". Chairman, the enfot"cement

part is somewhat of a problem. We are tt"ying to address it tht"ough some government ?t"O~rarnmes that are alt"eady in place. But I think the key to stop people ft"om doing it certainly lies with a good educational pt"ogramme. Thank you, Mt". Chairman. MR. SIMMONS: Mt". Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the member for Fortune - Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Chairman, I thank the minister for responding to my concerns about enforcement. I just want to take it a step further for a moment.

Let me wonder out loud - perhaps he can help the Committee - whether this term 'pollution' as defined in the new 39 ( 1) embraces littering or if perhaps there is another clause of the act that might cover littering. As I read that there it would seem that it could cover littering but I am not completely certain. He might want to indicate to the Committee whether there is other legislation that covers the point that we are talking about. I hear what he is saying about New Brunswick and about water supplies but I would say to him that the difference here he should take no No. 37 R2186

encouragement from. The difference here is just because of the lack of a concentration of population. We still have a lot of water that they have not gotten around to polluting yet and that is no credit to us as a people. There are only 500,000 people here and they have not gotten to all the lakes yet. The point I want to Chairman, is reflect on fires last week. speculating unduly, how make, Mr. the forest Without do we know that perhaps there was a piece of glass that was leit where it should not have been and that could have tr:igger"ed a fire? How do we know? That is the kind of thing I am talking about.

People have this cavalier attitude that, when I am finished with the beer bottle I can thr'OW it out the window; when I am finished with the milk carton, I can fling it anywhere. You can hardly go anywher"e now. I was into some ter:ritory last week that I thought was still fairly untr:espassed. I was amazed at the amount of littering that I had to climb over, crawl over almost, walk over certainly, in terms of beer: bottles, beer cartons, food wrapping and boxes from food containers and so on.

The reason I t"ose a second time on this, apart fr"om wanting to reinfor"ce what I was saying, is to put a direct question to the minister'. He might not have this information now but per"haps he would undertake to get it over the next few days. In terms of individuals, individuals who have heretofor"e been subject to a $100 fine for a breach of this clause, can he indicate now, or subsequently, how many successful prosecutions ther"e have been in respect to individuals?

How many L2187 May 22, 1986 Vol XL successful prosecutions have there been in any time frame, in the last year, the last two years or whatever the case may be? How many charges have been laid and how many have been successful? HR. CHAIRMAN: The han. the Minister of the Environment. MR. BUTT: Mr. Chairman, I will have to take that question as notice and assur:e the han. member that in the next day or: so I will give him those statistics. I do not have them on me, obviously, but I will be quite happy to present them to the han. member. MR. HISCOCK: Hr. Speaker. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the member for Eagle River. MR.

HISCOCK: Mr. Chairman, I just want to speak br:iefly on this amendment and say to the minister that when he is talking about our younger people in this Pr:ovince being more envir:onmental conscious than our: older people, it may or may not be true. One of the things I would like to recommend to the minister is with regard to gravel pits in municipal areas. After the company is finished, the municipal councils are not always responsible for getting the companies to clean up and I think that is one of the things that should be done. The environment should be allowed to go back to its original state.

Also, with regard to the Department of the Environment and Municipal Affairs, the sites that they pick for dumps often are in No. 37 R2187

unbelievable locations. When you are driving by they are open to public view and do not always have fences around them so there is a lot of garbage blowing around. I was also a little bit concerned the other night while watching CBC regarding dioxin in fruit and vegetables in Ontario. One of the things that came about was that the burning ·of garbage is one of the main causes of dioxin and, of course, one of the main ways we get rid of garbage in this Province is by burnin~ it. A~ain, I am sure it is nothing to be alarmed about because of the size of the communities themselves.

I want to go back again to the garbage on the roads. MR. MARSHALL: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. CHAIRMAN: The bon. the member for St. John's East. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, I have listened to the hon. gentleman for a few moments and I just want to bring up a point. MR. HISCOCK: You may. MR. MARSHALL: I think it is fair to say, and I do not mean any offence to my bon. friend, one is not suppose to make observations about anyone not being in the House, but the hon. gentleman was not in the House.

He has been away on the business of his constituency most of this sitting and he was away when the principle of the bill was adopted on second reading. I just put this to Your Honour and perhaps he would like to take it under L2188 ·May 22, 1986 Vol XL advisement because it is a good and valid point of order, there is not mistake about it. When you are debating the principle of the bill, you do it in second reading but we are on clause by clause now, looking at each clause and talking about the framework of each clause. Does the language express the principle, etc.?

I know the bon. gentleman has been out looking after his constituents and all that but we are really getting out of hand in this House. If some of us do not stand up and try to enforce the rules it is going to be utter and complete chaos. MR. HISCOCK: To that point of order, Chairman. Mr. MR. CHAIRMAN: The bon. the member River. MR. HISCOCK: for Eagle The President of the Council does have a valid point of order and I shall abide by it but there are only two resolutions in the amendment. In closing, Mr.

Chairman, I would just like to say that when the pollution occurs, and the question I want to ask is not covered here, the Department of the Environment will be responsible for cleaning up and then billing a municipality or the company after, if I am correct. Okay? MR. BUTT: Get the polluter. MR. HISCOCK: Okay. What about the areas that are not incorporated in municipalities, like the open spaces in our Province? Is this covered under this? No. 37 R2188

MR. BUTT: Yes. MR. HISCOCK: It is also covered under this. That is the point I was making before the President . of the Council (Mr. Marshall) interrupted. If that is the case, one of the things is a fine now for disposing garbage on the sides of the roads, is it not? AN HON. MEMBER: What? MR. HISCOCK: Disposing garbage in open spaces. MR. BUTT: Yes, you can get fined. The fines are being increased for polluters, individuals, right from $100 to $1,000 and $10,000 to $25,000 for corporations. MR. HISCOCK: Okay, and that is the point also I wanted to make on clarifying the clauses.

The other thing I want to mention involves Manitoba, and this is a suggestion. I am going over my bounds here, Mr. Chairman, but it will be brief. What Manitoba has for garbage is something call • space orbits' where kids and people driving along the side of the road take their garbage and put it in space. The signs on it say, "Put your garbage in orbit." They have orbit things all along their highway system to put their garbage in. For teaching our younger kids who have an interest in space and things I think this would be a novel way of continuing the education process.

In gravel pits now all we have is a garbage can, an old drum barrel or whatever. I would ask the minister if he would look into L2189 May 22, 1986 Vol XL that programme and look at the possibility of setting up a similar programme throughout our Province, particularly . on the highways and in our parks, and come up with some innovative idea to encourage our younger people and adults to put their garbage in outer space. MR. CHAIRMAN: The han. Environment. the Minister of the MR. BUTT: Mr. Chairman. just one brief comment. In fact, what the hon. member raised was discussed in great detail during second reading.

If the hon. member wanted to have a look at the Hansard, I am sure he would see just that. MR. TULK: Mr. Chairman. MR . CHAIRMAN: The han. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: I want to bring the Minister of the Environment back to a point that was made some time ago in this debate this afternoon by the Leader of the Opposition. I do not believe that the hon. the gentleman understood the real question that was being asked of him. Basically what the Leader of the Opposition is saying the minister referred to it the other night in a television interview on CBC.

He did indicate that if there was a conflict between his department and the Department of Municipal Affairs, in the case of Norris Point for example, and I know what the minister did yesterday, he held out the cash, pending settlements with the town council No. 37 R2189

or with a commission or whatever. But he did indicate that if there was a situation where it became obvious, as it is in Benton, by the way, and the minister has allocated no funds for that as I understand it, that he would take extraordinary measures. I think the term that he used was extraordinary measures.

Of course the interviewer should have taken him one step further and said to him, "All right, if in the case of Benton or Norris Point where you have this pollution, the council has resigned and they ha ve refused t.o take the money, tnen maybe the Minister of Municipal Affairs is going to be able to set up a commission and maybe he is not, who knows. There might be 100 per cent of the people who will tell him to go you know where and not take his money . In the case of Benton, the minister has put no money in. As I understand it, raw sewerage is flowing into the Town of Gander's water supply.

The minister has given some money to Fogo and to Tilting but, in the case of Joe Batt's Arm I would tell the hon. gentleman that I could take him down now and show him raw sewerage on the side of the roads. There are many other. places in the Province like it. Surely that is an environmental hazard we are looking at, and it is one that the minister cannot condone, nor can he allow it to happen. Now, the question for the minister, and this is a question I think that was put to him and it does apply to this bill in the same manner.

Let me put this to him: A municipality has a dump site which the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Doyle) has some responsibility for through the council, but nothing is done by either the council or the Minister of Municipal Affairs. L2190 May 22, 1986 Vol XL I have to tell the minister that there is a perception in this Province that he has one of the weakest portfolios in Cabinet, the one that is the last to have any say in what happens. It has been true on a number of major developments, as was pointed out by the member for Windsor Buchans (Mr. Flight).

The minister has to realize that his department has become, in the minds of a lot of people, somewhat passe, in that we do not have, and I believe this is unfortunate, the sa~e kind of concern today, perhaps, that we had ~n the lat.e 1960's and early 1970's for the environment. I want to ask the minister to outline for us just where, when it comes to a conflict between his department and the Department of Municipal Affairs, in the .case ·of Benton, in the case of Joe Batt's Arm and the case of Norris Point, is he going to say to the Minister of Municipal Affairs - MR.

BARRY: He should be listened to at the Cabinet Table, too. MR. TULK: He should be listened to at the Cabinet Table. I suspect that he is not. This has nothing to do with the minister personally, but I suspect that his department, as I say, is way down on the totem pole. Just when is he going to be able to put some teeth into his department and into his words?

There is no point in the Minister of Environment standing up in this House and saying, 'Yes, we are going to have legislation that increases fines from one dollar to $1,000 or $10,000 or $100,000 or $1 million if he does not have the authority to say to his own people in Cabinet, and to say to other No. 37 R2190

departments in government, 'Look, you go into Benton and you clean up the mess and you go into Norris Point and you clean up the mess.' And you can name dozens of other corr~unities around this Province that do not have sufficient water and sewer facilities, and that have raw sewage on the sides of the roads. You can name dozens of them! They are out there! At what point is he going to say to the Minister of Municipal Affairs, 'Listen here, Old Man, I do ~ot care whether you have the funds or not, as Minister of Environment I say you have .to clean up a certain mess'. Mr.

Chairman, having said that, I want to, if I might be allowed, take one minute to congratulate my ft"iend ft"om But"geo - Bay d' Espoit" (Mr. Gilbert). You would not realize this was possible, if you look at the face of the man, but last night, I undet"stand, he became the proud grandfather of a granddaughter. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. TULK: Being born on the date she was born, I am sure she is going to be a good Libet"al. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Environment. MR. BUTT: Mr. Chairman, I member on the granddaughter. I life. Minister of congratulate the birth of his wish her a long Mr.

Chairman, I will be out of order as well as the han. membet" was, because we are going through clause by clause on these bills. L2191 May 22, 1986 Vol XL But I will be out of ordet" and just answer the hon. membet" on a matter that he raised specific to Nort"is Point or Benton. What the hon. member has asked, in essence, in res~onding to the clause by clause debate on this bill, is for the Ministet" of Envit"onment to go in to any or all municipalities, Ot" unincorporated areas in the Province, where there is a problem with a council and assume the responsibility of a town council. MR. TULK: No, no. MR.

BUTT: Well, I mean, that is basically what the han. member is saying. Now, I will answer the hon. member, if I can get the attention of my colleagues here. In Norris Point, Mr. Chairman, - MR. TULK: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: A point of order, the hon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: I want to hear what the Minister of Environment is saying. Now, he just had to stop the member for Burin - Placentia West (Mr. Tobin) . That is nothing strange, it has been done before. I wonder if the Minister of Soccer Balls (Mr. Matthews) over there and the Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins) could be quiet so we can heat" what the hon. gentleman is saying? MR. CHAIRMAN: Could while we the have the silence, please, han. Minister of Environment is speaking? MR. BUTT: Very quickly, Mr . Chairman, I have No. 37 R2191

no intention of going in and replacing a town council when there is a water and sewer problem or anything, and I do not think anyone expects that to be the role of the Minister of the Environment . In fact, if people in a certain municipality do not wish to govern themselves, and I have said this before, the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Doyle) has the legislative authority to appoint a commission from within that municipality, or outside, to govern them. I am very pleased at the outcome of what is happening in Norris Point. I know there is a pollution problem there, but we have addressed it now.

And if, in fact, the people in Nor_ris Point do not wish to elect their own municipal council, then the Minister of Municipal Affairs will put a commission of administration in place and the monies will go in there to correct a sewage problem they have right now, where three lift stations out of eight, I believe, are not working and has been causing sewage to back up which, in fact, is causing a big problem. There is no question about that, it is a big problem. But if the people in Norris Point do not wish to govern themselves, a commission will be put in place and that problem will be addressed in short order.

In the meantime, Mr. Chairman, I want to say again that I have been totally out of order, because this has nothing to do with these two amendments. Motion, that the Committee report having passed a bill, "An Act To Amend The Department Of Environment Act", without .amendment, carried. (Bill No. 3) L2192 May 22, 1986 Vol XL DR. COLLINS: Order 10, Bill No. 25 . MR. CHAIRMAN: Before we call the next bill, I would like to read the questions for the Late Show. MR. TULK: Mr. Chairman, could we have it quiet please? MR. CHAIRMAN : Order, please! I will now read the questions for the Late Show.

The first question is from the hon. the member for Stephenville to the Premier. He is not satisfied with the answers given by the Premier as it relates to Air Nova bringing service to Stephenville and Gander, and if a commitment will be made. The second question is to the hon. the Minister of Fisheries by the han. member for Twillingate who is not satisfied with the answer to the question concerning compensation for Newfoundland fishermen whose earnings will be affected by the early closing of the salmon fishery. DR. COLLINS: Only two questions? MR. CHAIRMAN: Two questions. DR. COL LINS: Order 10, Bill No. 25 .

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order 10, Bill No. 25. A bill, "An Act To Amend The Real Estate Trading Act To Provide For The Establishment Of The Real Estate Foundation." (Bill No. 25). On motion, clauses 1 through 3, carried. No. 37 R2192

On motion,

preamble, carried. On motion, ·enacting clause, carried. On motion. title . earried . MR. BARRY: One second now, Mr. Chairman! do you not pass The Globe Mail while you are at it? MR. MATTHEWS: Why and Mr. Chairman, you do not have to take that. MR. FENWICK: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the member · for Menihek, is this a point of order? MR. FENWICK: Are we on Bill 25 right now? MR. CHAIRMAN: We just passed Bill 25. MR. FENWICK: No, you did not. through it . I order all the recognized, and I recognized. MR.

TOBIN: You were going was asking for time to be have not been If the record shows it is carried, let it carry. MR. BARRY: Yes, let the record show, let the record show. Do not be so foolish. MR. TULK: What, Bill 25? MR. CHAIRMAN: Bill 25 has been passed. Are you on a point of order? MR. FENWICK: No, I am on Bill 25. I want to L2193 May 22, 1986 Vol XL propose an amendment to Bill 25. MR. TULK: A point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CH.l\IR.IIiAN: A point of order, the han. the member for Fogo. MR. SIMMS: You cannot rise on a point of order, the hon. the member for Menihek is on a point of order. MR. FENWICK: )Jc.

I am ::.ot. I onean to s~eak to Bill 25. amendment. I wish to propose an MR. CHAIRMAN: We have a point of order. hon. the member for Fogo. The MR. TULK: Mr. Chairman, it extremely difficult is becoming in this House to hear, even from where I sit, what the Chairman is saying with all the racket that is going on over there. HR. BARRY: You cannot hear what the Chairman is saying. Nobody heard you call Bill No. 25. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! MR.

TULK: We have an amendment that we passed to the Government House Leader, that we gave notice of that we were going to put to Bill No. 25, and now, because of the din and the noise on the other side, if this bill is passed - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! Order, please! No. 37 R2193

There is a point or order on the floor. The han. the member for Fogo. SOME HON. ME r1BERS : Oh, oh! MR. TULK: Hr. Chairman, I am not going to speak until I have quiet on that side, if I have to stay here until 6:00p.m. SOME HON . MEMBERS: Very good! MR. CHAI Ri.'1AN : Could we have silence, please! The bon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, the point that I am making is that if Bill 25 was called by Your Honour it was unable to be heard by anybody on this side of the House because of the din anq the noise that was here.

As far as I am concerned, I thought, just following the Order Paper, that you were on Bill No. 15 or something, but now we are told that it was Bill No. 25. MR. BARRY: Are you going to try to ram that bill through?. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, to that point of order . MR. CHAIRMAN: To that point of order, the hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr . Speaker, we just passed a little while ago, Bill No. 3. That was Order No. 8. When the Committee of the Whole was finished with that bill, I then called Order No. 10, Bill No. 25.

L2194 May 22, 1986 Vol XL Your Honour then said, call Bill 25 I would announce the Late Show. MR. BARRY: Oh , come on, boy. DR. COLLINS: 'Before I like to After you had announced the Late Show, I then again called Order 10 and Your Honour said, 'Bill 25.' MR. BARRY : That is what was missed . DR. CO LLI ~ S: On two occasions the order was called and the bill was called and His Honour, the Chairman, responded to both calls.

Now, if hon. members opposite cannot listen to.what is going on, if the papers on their desks are so confused they cannot find their place in their papers on their desks, that is not His Honour's fault. They are supposed to pay attention when His Honour calls once not when he calls twice. MR. TULK: He cannot be heard. MR. BARRY: I have heard it all now. MR. TULK: Pure arogance! DR. COLLINS: Mr . Chairman, can I have silence? MR. BARRY: You will be here until July on this bill. MR. CHAIRMAN: Could we have order, please! The hon. the Minister of Finance. I1R. YOUNG: We do not care if we are here No . 37 R2194

until August. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, it is clear why bon. members opposite- are so confused about thin~s. Thev will not listen to anything. I am trying to respond to a point of order and they will not listen; they are making a heck of a lot of noise. I can hardly hear myself speak.

The point calls a opposite is, when Your bill, bon. are supposed to Honour members either '3:~roee ·)~ d_~sa~:-se.. t~ev :~1st cannot go on chatting among themselves and ignoring what is going on and then, when the whole thing is through, rise in their place and say, 'Oh, I 'flant to do it all over again.' I mean, they have to pay attention to what is going on in Committee. MR. BARRY: To that point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: To that point of order, the bon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Can we get Leader in control? MR. CHAIRMAN: the government here and get Order, please! MR.

BARRY: House some There has been a long tradition in this House, Mr. Chairman, and you have been in the Chair long enough and acting Speaker long enough to know how this thing is run. Members on that side of the House want to try and sneak bills through by talking over Your Honour so that Your Honour cannot be heard. Your Honour called the bill and then started to discuss L2195 May 22, 1986 Vol XL the questions on the Late Show, and before we hear anything further, the bloody thing is supposed to be passed. Now this is nonsense! That is no way to run a Legislature.

We will debate it on third reading until the cows come home now, and you have notice of that, and we will use every procedural debate, every procedural procedure and point that we can on every bill that comes up for the rest of this Session if that is the nonsense that you are going to go on with. MR. FENWICK: To that point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. c"HAIRMAN: Order, please! Is that further to that point of order? MR. FENWICK: Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: The bon. the member for Menihek. MR. FENWICK: Yes, Your Honour, I heard you call Bill 25. I stood up in order to speak to it and introduce an amendment to Bill 25. MR.

BARRY: Get your House Leader out of the common room. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Quiet! Quiet! MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! Order, please! Could we have order please? The han. the member for Menihek. MR. FENWICK: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I heard you No. 37 R2195

call Bill 25 and when you started to go through the sections, I stood up on my feet, I asked to be recognized and you went through about four clauses without recognizing me. I have an amendment to introduce to it and I think that it is appropriate that it be introduced, because I was on my feet. If you want to check Hansard and my comments, I am sure you will find that I asked to be recognized several ti~es before you got through the bill. D~. CCLLI~·IS: Mr. Chairman, to that point of order. MR • CHA IRt'1A.t''J : To that point of order, the hon . the Minister of Finance. DR.

CO LL INS: The bon. the member for Menihek (Mr. Fenwick) is taking a very reasonable approach to things, unlike the member opposite when he stood on a point of order. When the member opposite stood on a point of order he said, "Oh, we did not hear you call it," and all that sort of thing . The hon. member for Menihek, at the far end of the room, the furthest away from Your Honour said, "I did hear the bill being called but, unfortunately, when I rose you did not notice me." A very reasonable point.

In view of that, we would suggest that the hon. the member for Menihek, by leave, because we have now gone through a certain procedure, we revert, by leave - SOME HON. MEMBERS : No leave. No leave. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman. MR . CHAIRMAN : Order, please! Order, please! L2196 May 22, 1986 Vol XL MR. BARRY: No leave. No leave. HR. CHAIRMAN : I wish to advise the hon . the Leader of the Opposition that I am asking for order, please!! MR . BARRY: Well, Your Honour might do the same on the other side. MR . J . CARTER: Name him, Mr. Chairman. high time he was named. MR.

CHAIRMAN: It is The bon. the Minister of Finance. MR. BARRY : What arrogance! MR. SIMMS: What a despicable display. MR. BARRY: What arrognace! To try and sneak a bill through this House. MR. SIMMS: You are some alternate Premier, you are. MR. CHAIRl'fAN : I have heard enough on this point of order. MR. BARRY: Trying to sneak a bill through this House. MR. MATTHEWS: Grow Up! MR. BAIRD: Be a man, boy. Be a man. MR . CHAIRl'LA.N : Order, please! Order, please! Order, Please! I have heard enough on this point of order and I will now make my No. 37 R2196

ruling. Twice the bill was called. The first time I called the Bill then I asked to be excused to read out the questions for the Late Show. After that I called Order No. 10, Bill No. 25, and, as far as I am concerned, the bill is passed. !1R. SIMMONS: On a matter of privilege, Mr. Chairman. MR. FUREY: :-!e s::::u::~.s '3 ~ :.:-~ ~ MR . CHAIRMAN: On a matter of privilege, the hon. the member for Fortune - Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS: It goes without saying, Mr. Speaker, that for a member in this House to be able to participate in the - · MR. BARRY: Get him out of the Chair . MR. J.

CARTER: You cannot bring up a matter of privilege in Committee. MR. FUREY: You can so. MR. SIMMONS: He is not still blowing over there, is he? MR. RUSSELL: You have to rise the Committee. MR . CHAIRMAN: Order, please! The hon. the member for Fortune - Hermitage. MR . SIMMONS: It goes without saying that for a member, including myself, to L2197 May 22, 1986 Vol XL participate in the matters before a committee, that member must hear what the Chair says . -All right? Now, members opposite can doubt my NOrd, I am not concerned about that, I am just saying to the Chair I, Sir, did not hear you.

I heard you say that 'before I call the Bill' you would proceed to announce the items for the Late Show. The next tC'ansac tion I remember was that the gentleman from Grand Falls (Mr. Simms) was asking you, 'Were there only two?' All right? Were there only t:.v':: ~~atters. i.nd the r.. ·J;:~e~s might have been called. I am noc saying the Chair did not call them, I am saying to the Chair that I did not hear them. The Committee must realize that we have given notice. I understand the gentleman from Menihek (Mr. Fenwick) also has given notice.

The Government House Leader will know that it has been the intention of this side of the House to propose certain amendments. Now I appeal to the government side to stop playing games on this one. We have been reasonable in terms of the passage of other legislation before this Committee this afternoon. It is not our intention to obstruct, but on this particular one we have taken certain public positions, both in this House and outside, and we would like to be heard.

Now, we are either going to be heard through the convention of proposing amendments - whether they are carried out or not is another matter - in this House or we shall have to resort to other procedural wrangles, and we prefer not to do that. So we appeal to the - MR. J. CARTER: No? You have done enough of it. MR. FUREY: No. 37 R2197

Shut up, 'Carter', and grow up, boy. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! MR. SIMHONS: We appeal, Mr. Speaker, to the House to hear what I am saying, what others are saying, that we did not hear the order being called. Because it stands to reason, given this matter, have allowed our public stance on that we would not the matter to go thrm .:g; h. Sc ycu 'have t:J 'believe tha~ we did not hear Mr. Chairman. He might well have called the order, we are not arguing that, but we did not hear it. MR. \.JARREN: That is your problem. MR. SHfl10NS: No, it is not my problem, Mr. Chairman.

I submit the reason I did not hear is because of the kind of hullabaloo that is going on right now, Mr. Chairman, and that is why I rose on a matter of privilege. My privileges are being breached in that I am not allowed to participate in this Committee because I cannot hear what is going on and I appeal to the Chair to keep better order.

I realize he has quite a problem, because his own colleagues do not respect him, obviously, but until the Committee agrees to take the word of hon. members that they did not hear, and then go back if go back is what is required - we submit that it has not been called, we did not hear it, but if it has been called, we suggest this whole matter can be resolved very expeditiously by just calling the Bill and proceeding clause by clause. L2198 May 22, 1986 Vol XL DR. COLLINS: To that point of privilege, Mr . Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN : The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Hr.

Chairman, there is clearly no point of privilege here. Your Honour has made a ruling and the ruling is that the Committee of the Whole on this Bill has now been passed. That is Your Honour's ruling. There is no ?Oint of pr£vile~e i~ terms of the hon. member not oe~ng unable to hear what was going on. If the hon member who is several metres further away from Your Honour than the hon. member who just made the point could hear it, clearly, he was capable of hearing Your Honour's speech. If the hon member did not hear it, it was not because he was unable to here it but because he was not paying attention.

That is ~lear from the facts of the case. Now, Mr. Chairman, to get us out of this situation, Your Honour has made a ruling. That stands unless we question Your Honour's ruling, which we have no intention of doing, but to overcome the difficulty we are quite agreeable on this side of the House, by leave, to allow the member to revert to clause 1, or whatever clause he wanted to get up on. MR. BARRY: By leave! You are talking a matter of principle. DR. COLLINS: Now, Mr. Chairman - MR. CHARIMAN : Order! Order! Order, please! DR. COLLINS: No. 37 R2198

I reiterate, a ruling has been made and we cannot undue what has been done. A ruling has been made and the only way it can be undone is if we question Your Honour's ruling. which we have no intention of doing. Your Honour made a ruling which was within his authority to make and we are not going to question it. However, if members opposite wish to get out of this difficulty, we are quite willing to co-operate by reverting to the clause that the han. member wished to rise on. 1."1R. SIM.t10NS: A point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The han. the member for Fortune - Hermitage.e MR.

SIMMONS: If the minister generally wants us to get out of this conundrum he can stop using the word 'leave' and he can suggest that by unanimous consent we will revert to the matter notwithstanding the ruling. MR. LUSH: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIR.t."!AN: Order, please! The han. the member for Bonavista North. MR. LUSH: Mr. Chairman, I was here with an amendment for this Bill, and it was submitted to the Government House Leader, of which the Minister of Consumer Affairs and Communications (Mr. Russell) has a copy. I have to apologize.

I was thinking that this was Bill 53 and, if the minister looks at the amendment I have given him, on it is Bill 53, an amendment to Bill -L2199 May 22, 1986 Vol XL 53. I have just now, knowing that it was Bill 25, crossed it out. But the minister can verify that. I had it down for Bill 53, confusing it with Clausa _53, and I was waiting for the call of Bill 53, with the bill turned up to the appropriate clause that I was about to amend. I am sorry! I did not hear 53, and if I heard 25 I would not have stood anyway, because I thought it was Bill 53. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Do I understand unanimous consent :'1c.s been given? MR . BARRY: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The han. the Leader of the Opposition. !1R. BARRY: Mr. Chairman, there is a matter of principle involved here that should be stated. We should not have to waste fifteen to twenty minutes of th