Alberta Hansard — 15 May 2003, Afternoon sitting (13:30) (Legislature 25, Session 3)

20030515

Alberta — Debates (Hansard)

May 15, 2003 Alberta Hansard 1667 Leg islative A ssem bly o f A lberta Title: Thursday, May 15, 2003 1:30 p.m. Date: 2003/05/15 [The Speaker in the chair] head : Prayers The Speaker: Good afternoon. Let us pray . Our Father, k eep us m indful of t he specia l and unique opportunity we have t o work f or our constitue nts and our province, and in that work give us strength and wisdom. Amen. Please be seated. head : Introduction of G uests The Speaker: The hon. Deputy Speaker. Mr. Tannas: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It’s my pleasure and honour today to introduce to you and through you to al l members of t his Assembly a woman who is fam iliar to al l of us. She is seate d in your gallery. Joan Ga bert serv ed a s a police c onstable w ith the Edmonton Police Service for over 25 years, and then she came to the Legislative Assembly security staff in 1996. She’s retiring; today is her last day with us. She and her husband will be splitting their time between Vancouver Island and their home in Fort Saskatchewan, Alberta. I know that all hon. member s wish them well.

Joan, we thank you for your good work in the service of this House. I now invite Joan to rise and receive the warm traditional welcome of this Assembly. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton Gold Bar. Mr. MacDonald: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. It is also my privilege to introduce to you and through you to all hon. members of this Assembly Mr. Gordon and Meldia W eisgerber. They are the proud parents of page Erin Weisgerber, who is unfortunately leaving this Assembly and I’m sure is going on to bigger and brighter things as she progresses with her ed ucation.

I w ould now ask the proud parents to please rise in the Speaker’s gallery and receive the warm and traditional welcome of this Assembly. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Whitecourt-Ste. Anne. Mr. VanderBurg: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. On this bright spring day it’s my pleasure this afternoon to introduce 75 equally as bright, intelligent, and hardworking students from the Percy Baxter school in Whitecourt. Acc ompanying them are eig ht adults, and they’re seated in the members’ and public galleries this afternoon. I’d ask them to please rise and receive the warm welcome of this Assembly. The Speaker: The hon.

Member for Grande Prairie-Wapiti. Mr. Graydon: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have some visitors here today sharing their vi sit with the hon. Member for Grande Prairie- Smoky and myself. We have Trenton Perrott, who is the manager of the Prairie Gallery in Grande Prairie; Derek Hall, who is with the Grande Prairie Live Theatre; and Lisa Ryan, who is with the Grande Prairie Public Library. Th ey’re in the public gallery, and I’d ask them to rise and receive the welcome of the Assembly. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Innisfail-Sylvan Lake. Mr. Ouellette: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It gives me great pleasure to rise today and introduce to you and through you to all members of the Assembly 34 of Alberta’s brightest and best from the heart of my constituency, 34 children from John Wilson elementary school, the grade 6 class. They’re accompanied by their teacher, Mrs. Pederson, and parent/teacher helpers Mrs. Hill, Mrs. Douglas, Mrs. Young, and Mr. Harsch. I would like them to all stand and receive the warm welcome of this Assembly. The Speaker: The hon. Leader of the Official Opposition. Dr. Nicol: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It’s with great pleasure today that I rise to introduce the Official Opposition’s incredible research team. They’ve done an excellent job for us this session, and I would like them to rise as I give their names: Dav id Schaaf, Laurence Miall, Kirsten Odynski, Aaron Roth, Alex Ragan, Rachel Peterson, Elaine Jewitt-Matthen, and our summer STEP student, Kevin Elliott, and our student with the Quebec/Alberta exchange program, Sonia Nadeau. She’s study ing politica l science at Laval University.

I would ask all members of the Legislature to recognize these young people who have contributed so greatly to the democratic process in Alberta. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Castle Downs. Mr. Lukaszuk: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It’s indeed a pleasure to introduce to you and through you to a ll members of our Assembly four fine indiv iduals: Master Lin Ho, a leader of our Buddhist community in Castle Downs; her brother Mr. Chee Liaw; Mrs. Yun Liaw; as well, all the way from France, Chanmaly Kasisa vanh. I would ask them to rise and receive the usual warm welcome of our Assembly. The Speaker: The hon.

Minister of Children’s Services. Ms Evans: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It is a distinct privilege to rise on behalf of the h on. Memb er for Edm onton-Mill Cree k, the Minister of Community Development, and introduce his constituent Mr. Harcharan Dhaliwal, along with two guests from India, La li Sandhu and Uday Sandhu, who are seated in the members’ gallery. I would ask if they would please rise and we would share our warm welcome with all of them. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Riverview. Dr. Taft: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have two introductions today.

The first is Ms Lorie Grundy, w ho is seated in the public gallery. Ms Grundy is a regi stered n urse. She w orked many years at the Cross Cancer Institute. She has four daughters, one o f who m is studying in India and three who are still in Edm onton. They are exemplary citizens and fine students. The other introduction is Lorie’s daughter Hayley Grundy, who is becoming well k nown to m any people in this pro vince as a real advocate for public education. I would ask Lorie a nd Hayley to please rise and receive the warm welcome of all members here. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Strathcona. Dr.

Pannu: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I’m truly delighted to rise and i ntroduce to y ou and thr ough yo u to the Legi slative Assembly two of my constituents. Dwayne Van Straten is a teacher at T.D. Baker junior high school. Last Sunday, May 11, he was in Spain to participate in the world long-course triathlon championship held in Ibiza, Spain. There were over 900 participants from all over

1668 Alberta Hansard May 15, 2003 the world, 40 of them from Canada. This triathlon included a four- kilometre swim in the Mediterranean Sea, a 20-kilometre bike ride, and a 30-kilometre run. While biking, Dwayne was pushed off the road by another competitor and sustained fairly serious injuries. In spite of all that, he picked up his bike, repaired it, and continued. He finished the tria thlon ranking f ifth am ong Canadia ns and 150th internationally and 20th in his age group in spite of this accident. His wife, Sharon Gingara, is accompanying him today, and she is an accomplished athlete i n her own ri ght.

She just finished her first marathon in Vancouver about 10 day s ago. Both of th em are, I think, seated in the public gallery. I will now ask them to please rise and receive the traditional warm welcome of the Assembly. My second introduction, Mr. Speaker, with your permission is of four parents f rom the Mil l Woo ds a rea: Che ryl D epeel, Evel yn McGill, Jennifer Henneberry, and Joni Schootstra. These parents are very concerned about the continuing underfunding of their children’s education.

In addition, they are likely to lose the nonprofit day care at Grant MacEwan Community College in Mill Woods because of the same cuts. I’ll ask these visitors to please rise and receive the warm welcome of the Assembly. 1:40 head : Ministerial Statements The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs. Emergency Services Personnel Mr. Boutilier: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’m pleased to rise today to talk about the importance of emergency services in Alberta and what the gove rnment h as been doing to recognize our dedicated Albertans.

Many of us in this House just came from the inaugural presentation of the Alberta emergency services medal, which took place during the lunc h hour right outs ide here on t he Legislature steps. The Alberta emergency services medal was establis hed to p ay tribute to proud Albe rtans, outst anding ful l-time, part-tim e, and volunteer members who have committed 12 or more years of their careers to emergency services in Alberta. This medal is the first of its kind in Canada. This medal also recognizes emergency services that have nev er, eve r befor e been forma lly re cognized by our province.

The eight disciplines that were recognized today are the Alberta Fire Fighters; EMS, Emergency Medical Service s; the fire service dispatch; Emergency Medical Services dispatch; Search and Rescue; Emergency Management Alberta; the Alberta fire commissioner’s office; and Alberta Sustainable Resource Development. So as you can see, in a ddition to recog nizing the f rontline per sonnel that physically come to our aid during emergencies, this medal also honours those individuals who make things work behind the scenes, the dispatcher s who handle e mergency phone c alls cal mly and professionally.

Their work goes on many times unnoticed. It also recognizes local directors of Disaster Services, who shoulder much of the responsibility for making sure their communities know how to prepare for, respond to, and recover from major emergencies. It honours our provincial staff who, among other things, develop fire safety programs for children, help communities establish municipal emergency plans, and protect our province’s forests and wildlife. Today we re cognized 350 exc eptional indiv iduals and tr ue Albertans for helping to prot ect others.

In the se lfless dedication that they have demonstrated in their careers and in their volunteer contributions they have made an impact on lives each and every day. To these men and women commitment means always being on call, always being available when they are needed, and to them it means doing the best you can poss ibly do e very call every day. It means going the extra mile and giving your all.

For their 12 or more years they were recognized today as individuals that have been protecting our families and our friends, asking for nothing in return other than the satisfaction of knowing that they’ve helped others. I was ple ased to se e so ma ny members of this Assem bly here today recognizing those very true Albertans, and I want to say, Mr. Speaker, on behalf of all Albertans that we than k Alber ta’s emer- gency services perso nnel and their families for working selflessly every day to maintain a sense of safety and security for all Albertans. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Speaker: The hon.

Member for Edmonton-Glengarry. Mr. Bonner: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Today’s ceremony honour- ing 350 staff members of Alberta’s emergency services was a most fitting recognition of the efforts of some of Alberta’s finest citizens. These men and women are never far when Albertans need their help most. Whether they a re fighting fires, tending to th e injured, or performing silently behind the sc enes, these people re present the best facet s of hum anity: br avery, comm itment, integrity, an d compassion. While most Albertans wouldn’t know these people by their proper names, they do know them by another name.

They call them heroes. On behalf of all Albertans I would like to congratulate all medal winners on their achievements, their commitment, and their selfless dedication to others. To all emergency services personnel I say: well done and thank you. Mr. Mason: Mr. Speaker, with your indulgence I would request unanimous consent from the Assembly in order for us to respond to the ministerial statement. The Speaker: Hon. members, and for those who are viewing, every time this procedure comes to the floor, my office gets questions as to why w e have t o go through thi s.

Well , the real ity, for all the people in televi sion land w ho happen to be watchi ng question period, is that in o rder to be a recogni zed politica l party in the Legislative Assembly of Alberta, you must have a minimum of four seats, and the request now comes from a representative that does not have that. So in order to participate in Ministerial Statements, there must be unanimous consent granted by the Legislative Assembly. [Unanimous consent granted] Mr. Mason: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

I would li ke to thank members for their courtesy in allowing me to add my thanks to Alberta’s dedicated and hardworking emergency services workers. The medal recipi ents are indeed deserving of their awards. At the same time, these deserving recipients would be the first to acknowl- edge that they would not have been able to receive thes e awards if not for the efforts of their coworkers. Emergency response services are the very epitome of teamwork.

Only by working together and being able to rely on other members of the team are emergency response personnel able to do the courageous work that we as a society call upon the m to do. Whethe r it is running into burning buildings to rescue a trapped child or even a pet, attending victims at an accident scene, or dispatching an ambulance to the home of a frail senior citizen, we depend on these dedicated professionals. On behalf of my caucus colleague and New Democrats across the province I salute all of today ’s award winners and the dedicated work of al l emer gency r esponse personnel across the province.

Thank you very much.

May 15, 2003 Alberta Hansard 1669 head : Oral Quest ion Peri od Electricity Deregulation Dr. Nicol: Mr. Speake r, even t hough most recent c hanges to deregulation were just passe d in this House a month a go, the Minister of Energy is pushing to have them implemented by June 1 of 2003. Rapid change will create uncertainty in the ma rketplace, and consumers still haven’t been told what these changes mean for them. I didn’t think it was possible, but this government’s deregula- tion boondoggle is about to go from bad to worse.

To the Minister of Energy : why is th e Mini ster of Energy reckle ssly r ushing to implement the new Electric Utilities Act by Jun e 1 when it was passed in the House just one month ago? Mr. Smith: Mr. Speaker, Bill 3 was a combination of two and a half years of stride nt c onsultation w ith involve ment from every party involved in the ele ctricity disc ussion. This also include d the Member for Edmonton-Highlands being placed on an Internet notifications group. This bill has been consulted on widely. It has been consulted on thr oughout the i ndustry. It is a result of stake- holder input.

It’ s a result of the Premier’s council on electrical issues, their extensive discussion and their extensive input. Mr. Speaker, this is not a surprise to anybody in Alberta, and in fact what we have done over the past two and a half years is we’ve consulted, as I’ve s tated, and we’ve put in the three pillars that deliver a mar ket m odel. One is the export mark et pol icy, th at ensures that Albertans are benefited by exports and that they are not harmed by either having to pay for transmission costs or for power that they could otherwise use. They must be served first.

Secondly, the market policy clearly puts a level playing field into Alberta, has facilitated the entry of another competi tor, delive rs clear and transparent regulation to the market model. Lastly, the transmission policy. The tra nsmission policy is, agai n, an outcom e of th e Premier’s council on el ectrical issues. It is cri tically desig ned to ensure that Albe rtans have open acc ess to the lowest overall cost generation. So it’s a plan. The policy course is there. The pillars are up. The next step is an extensive consumer education program. Dr.

Nicol: To the m inister: w hen is that c onsumer e ducation program going to st art so that consumers can f ind out what their rights are when they’re faced with marketers? Mr. Smith: Mr. Speaker, I was just on a tele phone call regarding that campaign before question period, at 1 o’clock, and we can assume that we’ll have something out earliest toward the end of May and certainly in June and then reappearing again extensively in the fall season. The folks in Alberta trust the gov ernment for their information, and we want to ensure that they get it. 1:50 Dr.

Nicol: Again to the minister: how can the minister expect Albertans to provide inf ormed input into your re gulations for the new act when you’re only giv ing them three to f ive day s for turnaround on their responses on those new regulations? Mr. Smith: Mr. Speaker, the regulations are simply an embodiment of the legislation. They have been discussed with the group since the act was assembled last October, November. I have not received any specific complaint relative to the regulation process. Education Funding Dr. Nicol: Mr.

Speaker, in 2001 the horse racing industry asked the government for an inv estment of $87.1 m illion ove r three years. Over the last three years the government has given that horse racing industry $87.9 million, more than what i t asked for. The go vern- ment has def ended this m ove as a n investment in Albe rta’s eco- nomic development. To the Minister of Economic Development: in the long-term development of this province is it more important to invest in horse racing or in education? Mr. Norris: Well, you know , clearly, Mr.

Speak er, the ques tion being asked is posing two different streams, but I’d like to answer the question in this way. Without economic drivers creating an y kind of wealth, other than government intervention we don’t have the money that we need to spe nd on the policie s and the p lanning and the educa tion and the heal th care tha t we so cherish in t his province. So I would a nswer the question in t his way to the hon. member. If you don’t focus your business on generating revenue, you end up having none to spend.

Clearly, in this province we have generated a mas sive amount o f reve nue through these programs, very worthwhile industries, so that we do have the best health care system and the best education and the best roads in the country. I would support any thing that inv ests m oney in developing new revenue sources so that we can continue providing Albertans with the best services in Canada. Dr. Nicol: To t he Mi nister of Learning , Mr. Speak er: wha t do parents have to do t o get the s ame commitment in their children’s schools as this government gives to the horse racing industry? Dr. Oberg: Mr.

Speaker, in the K to 12 system this year – this year – there was a $191 million increase. Dr. Nicol: To the Minister of Finance: how can the minister justify to parents in Edmonton and Calgary that they will be paying more in property taxes and still lose teachers? Mrs. Nelson: Mr. Speaker, you’ve heard our Minister of Learning talk abou t the conce rn of E dmonton a nd Calgar y and al l school districts day after day in this House. He’s also said that when their budgets come forward, he’s prepared to work with the school boards to deal with some of the pressure points.

The opposition is bent on trying to make a case that there isn’t a co-operation between the two entities of the school boards and the Ministry of Learning. That is just, quite frankly, not the case. We have heard what Albertans have said. We put a 4.7 percent increase in our budget this year. In 2005 we will spend over $5 billion in Learning in this p rovince for a population of just ov er 3 mil lion people. W e are c ommitted to education, as we have exemplified in our budget planning process.

We’ve brought a balance into t his province which I be lieve is the right balance, and I would really ask the opposition to support the government in working with the boards to make sure th at we look after the children for the future. The Speaker: Third Official Opposition main question. The hon. Member for Edmonton-Mill Woods. Dr. Massey: Thank you, Mr . Sp eaker. C algary public, Calgar y Catholic, Edmonton public, Grande Prairie public, Red Deer public, Elk Island public, St. Albert Catholic: all school boards from across the province in financial trouble and letting teachers go.

Yet all we hear from the Minister of Learning is: don’t worry; we’ll ta lk to them. My questions are to the Minister of Le arning. How many more school boards must sound the alarm before the minister stops talking and takes some action?

1670 Alberta Hansard May 15, 2003 Dr. Oberg: Mr. Speaker, I believe there has been a good example of what has happened with the passage today of the Calgary Catholic budget. For a school system that has roughly 45,000 children within it, they announced today that there would be a dec rease of 11 teachers. Obviously, any decrease is certainly significant, but it isn’t to the same magnitude as when we’re talking 450 teachers, which was an nounced here. I think the obvious questio n is: how can Edmonton Catholic do i t with no te acher layoffs, with exactly the same amount of dollars?

How can Calgary Catholic do i t with 11 teacher layoffs? These are some of the very critical issues that we are talking about and asking the school boards. Again, Mr. Speaker, there are two ways that you can govern. You can just say quite simply, “Here’s the money; go do with it a s you wish,” or you can actually ask: “Are you spending prudently? Are you spending in the right place?” Those are some of the questions that we’re asking school boards. Dr. Massey: Again to the same mini ster: given t hat the minister claims that boards are adequately funded, why are so many boards reporting just the contrary? Dr.

Oberg: Mr. Speaker, what happened in this year, as everyone in this Assembly knows, is that there was roughly a 14 percent increase in arbitrated costs. There have been some other costs, and indeed one of the things that I certainly have told the school boards that we will have a very important look at is the operations and maintenance costs, things like that. So we are talking to the school boards. We’re hearing thei r sid e. Fo r exampl e, I ha d a meeti ng with the two Lethbridge school boards , who we re concer ned because their surpluses were going to be eaten up next year. So, Mr.

Speak er, the si tuations are diffe rent all a round the province. What we’re attempting to do is help each individual board make its way through this 14 percent settlement that was done last year, and hopefully we’ll have positive results from that. Dr. Massey: Again to the same minister, Mr. Speaker: why is the minister trying to convince people that things are going to get better when school boards are laying off and cutting teachers right now? Dr. Oberg: Mr. Speaker, I go back to what I had said previously in this House. The budget of Calgary public is preliminary.

I under- stand that the final one is go ing to com e down nex t week. The budget for Edmonton public was announced. Interestingly enough, in Edmonton public’ s budget there is a balance , but there’s no mention, for ex ample, that they took their A ISI funds, f ired the teachers that were on AISI, and put AISI into professional develop- ment: 9 and a half million to 10 million dollars. So there are a lot of large questions that still remain. We could just simply settle, as the hon. member is asking, and say: okay; well, that’s what it must be. Mr. Norris: Not good enough for Alberta. Dr.

Oberg: You’re right; it is not good enough for Albertans. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Strathcona, followed by the hon. Member for Edmonton-Calder. Dr. Pannu: Thank you, Mr . Speaker. S ince the o pening o f the spring sitting o n Febru ary 18, Albert ans have bee n hoping for solutions to two pre ssing problems: the school fundi ng cris is and sky-high, skyrocketing u tility bills. Yet here we are three months later with the budget debate behind us, and Albertans are worse off now than they were then.

As evidence of this, the president of the Alberta School Boards Association is telling this government that all 62 school boards w ill be facin g cutbacks an d deficits co me next year. My questions are to the Minister of Learning. With oil and gas revenues sending the budget surplus to the $3 billion mark, why was the minister not able to find the financial resources necessary to avert a crisis in Alberta’s classrooms? Dr. Oberg: Mr. Speaker, this y ear in m y budget there was a 4.9 percent inc rease, and t hat increa se wa s all to thing s to do with learning.

To give an example, the teachers’ pension fund went up by a little over 10 percent, very close to 11 percent, included within my budget. The K to 12 system went up about $19 1 m illion. The postsecondary system went up around $45 m illion to $50 million. So there has been a significant am ount. Even in A lberta $191 million is still a lot of money. Those are taxpayers’ dollars. There has been a significant amount of money that has been put into the education system.

Over the past four years we’ve seen a rise of anywhere between 25 and 30 percent given to the school boards, so there’s a tremendous amount that has been given. What we have to recognize is that in Alb erta we have the highest paid teachers. Our students do the best of any place in the world, and I believe that those are two very important things that Albertans are asking us to continue. Mr. Speaker, as a government that believes in som e of these, that believes in the o utcomes of our children, I believe that this outcome will certainly continue. The Speaker: The hon. member. Dr. Pannu: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

How is this minister able to stand in this Assembly day after day saying that all is well when the reality of school board after school board announcing deep cuts to programs and staff should be moving him to take immediate action and take it now? Dr. Oberg: Well, Mr. Speaker, again, there’s a bit of a fallacy out there about 62 school boards going to be in a deficit position. Quite frankly, in the last two and a half month s I’ve met with s ome 20 school boards.

Sure, things are going to be tight, but part of being a school board t rustee, a s well, is to ma nage a bud get, manage taxpayers’ dollars, a nd that’s w hat the sc hool bo ards are do ing. Many school boards are making some difficult decisions, but on the whole they a re making their decisions with the best int erests of students in mind. I full y expect and I fully know tha t they w ill continue to make their decisions with the best interests of students in mind. 2:00 Dr. Pannu: My final question to the minister, Mr.

Speaker : ho w much larger do class sizes have to grow and how many more young teachers have to leave Alberta before the minister steps outside his message box and realizes that there is a financial cr isis i n our schools? Dr. Oberg: Mr. Speaker, first of all, when it comes to a financial crisis, I’ll just reiterate a little bit about the money that’s gone in. I talked about the $191 million. We also put in $60 million to pay the teachers’ unfunded liability this year, $60 million that by definition went directly into the classroom, directly to the teachers.

This year alone $191 million dol lars w ent into the K to 1 2 syste m in my budget. There’s been probably about a 25 to 28 percent increase in funding to school boar ds over the last four years. This year alone the hon. Minister of Infrastructure announced 27 schoo l projects. Twenty-seven school projects. There are six new schools in Calgary

May 15, 2003 Alberta Hansard 1671 alone. There’s a $51 million school going to be built just down the road in Edmonton. So there’s a tremendous amount of dollars that are going into education, going into learning. I will say that we continue to work with the school boards. Many school boards hav e pu t for ward the ir fisc al issues , and I’m not belittling their situa tion at all. Many school boards a re tight, but we’re working with them to ensure that they will make the decisions that are in the best interests of all students. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Calder, followed by the hon.

Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar. Bingo Industry Mr. Rathge ber: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker . Many volunteer groups rely heavily on proceeds from bingo to sustain their valuable activities. However, the A lberta G aming a nd Liquor Commission is currently proposing revised terms and conditions to the bingo industry which w ould guarante e a retur n of 15 to 24 percent to the sponsoring charities. My question is to the Minister of Gaming. Is the minister not concerned that many bingo associa- tions will find this guarantee impossible to meet and will therefore cease operating? The Speaker: The hon. minister. Mr.

Stevens: Thank you, Mr. Speak er. In 2001 this government accepted a recommendation that charitable groups that work at our bingo association halls receive a guaranteed return for their effort. This pas t Jan uary the Alber ta Gam ing and Li quor Comm ission started a review with the bingo association halls and the charities of draft terms and co nditions rega rding am ong other thing s the charitable return criteria. The charitable return criteria in the draft terms and conditions, Mr. Speaker, is based on sales which recognize and deal with attendance, player spend, and prize payout.

According to the 2001-02 statistics 17 associations are i n the r ange of meeting the criteria a s drafted with an additional 16 associations within 2 percent of the range. If associations were in compliance with the 65 percent prize policy on regular and special games, 35 associations would be in the range of meeting the criteria as drafted with an additional nine within the 2 percent range. At the end of April the consultation with the bingo associations came to an end. The AGLC is currently reviewing the feedback, and I can assure you, Mr.

Speaker, that in any event the AGLC, as we go forward, will be working with the bingo halls t o ensure that they improve their returns. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Rathgeber: Thank you. My only supplemental is to the same minister. Given the valuable work that charities perform with bingo proceeds, why is the minister proceeding without the endorsement of the volunteer bingo industry? The Speaker: The hon. minister. Mr. Stevens: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

In this particular case I think it’s agreed between government and the representatives of the bingo associations that it’s v ery important to ens ure that the maximum return is received by the charities that work at the bingo association halls. We hav e done a sub stantial consultation. In fa ct, I woul d suspect we have probably heard from pretty much every charity that works at the bingo halls at this particular point in time. There is not unanimity withi n the assoc iations.

Ho wever, the AGLC wil l be making its preliminary recommendations and reviewing that again with the bingo associations before there is a finalization, and that will occur in the weeks ahead. I think, Mr. Speaker, the important thing to remember about this is that this ministry through the AGLC is responsible for establishing policy and for regulating the bingo industry and for managing and controlling the elec tronic gaming. We are com mitted to working with our stakeholders, but at the end of the day the decision must be made by this government through this ministry and the AGLC with respect to those matters.

The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar, followed by the hon. Member for Calgary-Lougheed. Natural Gas Prices Mr. MacDonald: Thank y ou, Mr. Speak er. Alt hough it is the middle of May and the weather has warmed up, many Albertans are still trying to pay l ast year’s astronomical natural gas bil ls. Just yesterday the president of ATCO Ltd. told Albertans to prepare for the worst because, quote, the natural gas bubble has burst, leading to higher gas and electricity bills for everyone, end of quote.

My first question is to the Mini ster of Energy: why is the governm ent’s natural gas rebate program triggered by a provincial election instead of the price of natural gas that consumers see on their monthly bills? Mr. Smith: Well, Mr. Speaker, the me mber knows full well t he history of the Natural Gas Price Protection Act. He knows all about it, and to ma ke this k ind of preposterous leap is just his usual character. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. MacDonald: Thank you.

Again to the same minister: will this government’s review of the flawed Natural Gas Price Protection Act involve input from the public, or will it be conducted again behind closed doors like so many other ener gy policies that ha ve already failed consumers in this province? Mr. Smith: Mr. Speaker, there will be the us ual, a good, diligent review of this act, as has been s tated in the House and a s will be carried out by this government. Mr. MacDonald: Again, Mr. Speaker, to the same minister. I hope that review is not conducted in a ballroom in Banff.

What is th e minister tel ling Albert ans concer ned abou t high natural gas prices? Is it going to be double the seasonal average now that the price is that high, or is it simply going to be the advice that it’s too warm to wear a sweater? Mr. Smith: Mr. Speaker, when someone’s character is called into question, it’s difficult to respond. However, given this House and the respect that I have for it, I will try and answer the question as I perceived it to be asked. We do live in a North Am erican market- place.

We have seen the tremendous benefits from the increase of natural gas prices from royalty collection, and we also know that it hurts homeowners. We also know, Mr. Speaker, that it hurts sen iors, and we know that these increased utility costs hurt low-income Albertans, so one of the things that was responded to, and responded to very clearly and appropriately, in the pas t was the program for seniors and for

1672 Alberta Hansard May 15, 2003 low-income Albertans. Not one of those particular individuals who were in need or who needed the assistance of this government failed to receive that assistance. I think it’s a hallmark of this government that it sees areas where there’s true need and it responds appropri- ately, and it will continue to do so despite the insults and the usual catcalls from the opposition. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Lougheed, followed by the hon. Member for Edmonton-Glengarry. Postsecondary Education Participation Rates Ms Graham: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The benefits of postsecond- ary education are well documented. As education levels rise so does economic prosperity and quality of life. Statistics Canada suggests that 80 percent of new jobs require postsecondary education, so it is clear that higher education is essential to our young people. Despite the stated policy of our government that we are committed to helping Albertans achieve higher educ ation, our p articipation r ates f or postsecondary education are significantly below the national average.

For example, the January 2002 HRDC/Stats Canada report At a Crossroads, which I will table later today, showed Alberta to have the lowest postsecondary participation rates in Canada for 18 to 20 year olds at 42 percent. My questions today are to the Minister of Learning. In a progressive and prosperous place like Alberta how does the minister explain why more students in our province don’t pursue postsecondary education? The Speaker: The hon. minister. 2:10 Dr. Oberg: Well, thank y ou very much, Mr. Speaker. T hat is an excellent question.

First of all, I think there are a lot of reasons why students out of high school, 18 to 20 year olds, don’t necessarily go to a postsecondary system right off. In a very hot economy, as we have in Alberta, what I often see and what we see here is that many students go into t he job market fir st and sub sequently come back. I will sa y that Al berta has the hig hest percentage of people wi th university degrees and postsecondary degrees of anyplace in Canada. Mr.

Speaker, I have not read this report, but usually and typically what happens is that when they talk about postsecondary participa- tion rates, they alway s forget one thing. That one t hing is very important here in Alberta, and that’s apprenticeship. In Alberta we consider apprenticeship as postsecondary. We have 40,000 students that are em ployed in t he a pprenticeship industry each and e very year. It’s extremely important. We have 10 percent of the popula- tion and 20 percent of the apprentices in Canada.

So I believe, to make a long answ er short, the re are a lot of factors: first of all, the hot job market; second of all, the reporting mechanism that is here; but most importantly and most significantly we continue to push our stud ents for postsecondar y e ducation, whether it is apprentice ship, whether it is deg rees, w hether it is diplomas. It’s extremely important, and I would encourage all grade 12 students, all students in our K to 12 system to look at a degree or a diploma or an apprenticeship for their upcoming careers. Ms Graham: Mr.

Speaker, given that I will be tabling the report later today – and perhaps t he minister will have a look at it – I’m wondering what steps he has taken to ensure that our young people do enter studies at the postsecondary level. Dr. Oberg: Well, Mr. Speaker, one of the important things that we do is on the student finance side. What we do on the student finance side is we ensur e that tho se students with the h ighest needs have accessible dollars to attend the postsecondary system. Mr.

Speaker, one of the things that we did is we look ed at the number of students that were turned away from the top six institu- tions in Alb erta, and wh at we found is that by far th e majority of students who had the marks were a ccepted into other institutions. What had actual ly happened is that these students had applied to more than one institution. There’s a very, very small percentage of the stude nts who had the marks that w ere not adm itted into our postsecondary system.

So there are a lot of things that are happening in Alberta from the financial point of view, varying programs in Alberta to ensure that students are attracted, and I will say that our postsecondary system is absolutely, one hundred percent second to none in Canada. Ms Graham: I have a final supplemental, Mr. Speaker. Given that, as the minister mentioned, affordability of postsecondary education is so ve ry im portant to prev ent barrie r to acce ss, are you, Mr.

Minister, prepared to act on my motion, Motion 506, which was passed in this Assembly this spring urging government to find new and innova tive ways to help students finance their posts econdary education? The Speaker: One of the honoured traditi ons in a parl iamentary system is that members should not be pressured into voting in any way, either directly or indirectly, so I think we’ ll pas s on that question. Private/Public Partnerships Mr. Bonner : Mr.

Speake r, the draf t report f or the mi nister’s symposium on schools sa ys w ith respec t to P3s, and I quote: Alberta’s experience is marked by modest success and spectacular failure. It goes on to s ay, and I quote ag ain: the prov ince should adopt a co herent policy on P3s. But in spite of the spectacular failures of P3s in the past and the total absence of P3 resear ch, policy, and planning that this report identifies, this government has committed itself to using P3s to the tune of $1.4 billion.

T o the Minister of Infrastructure: shouldn’t this minister have conducted his research and fully developed h is P3 policy before he committed Alberta taxpayers to spending $1.4 billion on these projects? Mr. Lund: Mr. Speaker, I don’t know where on earth this member is coming from. To say that we ’re committing taxpayers to $1.4 billion or $1.9 billion or whatever number as far as P3 is concerned is just absolutely false, and I wish that they would quit these kinds of misleading comments and creating nothing but a problem out in the communities.

The fact is that there’s not even one – there’s not even one – P3 project since we started talking about this new system before us today. There are some P3s that are working out there in the health care system, have been there for y ears. There are other examples of P3s, but the kind of nonsense that he talks about relative to a P3 is probably the kind of P3s that would not pass the test. The fact is that w e are setting up and ha ve set up a very good outside committee that would be assessing any type of alternate financing, which would include all P3 projects that we might talk about.

When one comes, we will then have something to talk about, but certainly to say that we’ve committed the taxpayer to over a billion dollars is just totally wrong. Mr. Bonner: To the same minister, Mr. Speaker: what assurances can this minister give the people of Alberta that his P3s aren’t going to be just another spectacular failure?

May 15, 2003 Alberta Hansard 1673 Mr. Lund: Mr. Speaker, we’ve gone through this many times, but maybe I’ll try to do it more slowly today. We have consistently said that if there is a proposal that comes forward, we will assess it. We have a committee within the department that will assess it. We then turn it over to an outside committee that will go through the total package, will bring the lifetime cost back to present-day values, compare that wit h what it would be if in fact we di d the pr oject ourselves.

There are a number of things in a true P3 that I’m sure that the member would have great difficulty understanding but I know that Albertans won’t have any problem understanding, and that is relative to things like having a project started and completed more quickly, having the risk off-loaded to the private sector, to have the ability to have people that are experts in operating structures do the operation, and some of those kinds of thing s that w ill have to be figured in when you look at the total cost.

That’s why the Treasurer has set up an outside committee that has expertise in all of those fields to make absolutely sure that the deal is the best for the taxpayer. Mr. Bonner: Well, Mr. Speaker, I certainly don’t have any trouble understanding all the comments in the minister’s draft report. To the same minister: w hen is he goin g to de velop his o wn research and policies on P3s, or is he simply planning to drift into a disaster like our electricity deregulation? Mr. Lund: Mr. Speake r, the only people that are drif ting into disaster are right over there.

The fact is that on the report that the member is referring to, back in December of 2001 we conducted a school symposium. Out of that school symposium, which some 450 people participated in, we developed a group of subcommittees. The report he’s referring to is just one of the reports from a subcommit- tee, and it’s a draft. I haven’t even seen it yet because I believe it’s maybe even today and tomorrow that the committees are working on the draft, and then there will be a final report coming to us.

But the fact is that we have been working and doing a lot of research on P3s, and when – when – a proposal finally comes to us, we will be ready to report. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-East, followed by the hon. Member for Edmonton-Riverview. 2:20 Health Care Services Mr. Amery: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question today is for the hon. Minis ter of H ealth and W ellness. Many of my constituents have expressed concern about difficulty in obtaining health ca re services.

In spite o f y et anoth er large increase in health c are spending by the province this year, wa it times in emergency departments seem to be getting longer, and the time it takes to get an appointment with a family physician is also g rowing. Since more money, more f rontline sta ff, more physicians are not helping the situation, what is the minister doing to deal with this very important concern? Mr. Mar: Mr. Speaker, over the last eight years we’ve doubled our health care budg et to som e 7.3 billion dolla rs.

Curre ntly we are spending $20 million a day on health care, and notwithstanding these significant amounts of investment in health care, there continue to be issues with respect to access. Now, w e’ve said all along that money alone wi ll not solve access issues. There are a num ber of different solutions that need to be taken in tandem in order to have an effective solution. We h ave wo rked w ith the Depa rtment of Learning in terms of increasing the number of seats relating to health care professions in our province.

We currently have some 1 2,000 seats in postsecondary institutions for various health care profes- sions. We have recruited aggressively with respect to physicians, as an example. Over the last three years we have had a net increase – a net increas e – of 6 00 physicians in the province of Alberta, bringing our total to nearly 6,000. Emergency wait times continue to be an issue notwithstanding the best efforts of both the Capital health region and the Calgary health region, the two largest health regions in the province. Between the two of them they de al with s ome 600,000 emergency room vi sits each year .

But becaus e of the need to deal with other ways of delivering primary health care and not relying simply on emergency rooms to do that, w e have m ade signi ficant efforts and inves ted significant moneys in primary health care reform, Mr. Speaker. Just last month some 16 million dollars was announced by the govern- ment for primary health care initiatives that will reduce the number of unnecessary visits to emergency rooms by providing individuals with another access to primary health care other than emergency rooms.

Also, of course – and I’ve spoken about this many times in the House – the Health L ink line, w hich will be made available throughout the ent ire province by this s ummer, has dem onstrably reduced the number of unnece ssary visits t o emergency rooms in those areas where it has been implemented. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Amery: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Given that a large percentage of those people who visit hospital e mergency rooms do not really require hospital care, what is the minister doing about increasing the number of 24/7 medical clinics and thereby reducing the pressure on hospital emergency departments? Mr. Mar: Mr. Speaker, there are a number of ways of help ing to address this issue, some of which I’ve alrea dy talk ed about. Certainly, expanding primary health care thr ough th e $16 mill ion that I announced late last month will go a long w ay towards doing that.

Improving access in rural areas will go a long way to helping relieve the pressure that exist s in large urban centr es. Helpi ng Albertans prevent disease and injuries and promoting wellness will help reduce the overall demand upon our acute care system. Doing a better job of de aling with chronic dis eases – and people will be well aware of the announcements that were made with respect to a provincewide diabetes strategy earlier this month. So, Mr. S peaker, all of the se elements will be a ve ry important part of im proving our e mergency room wait ti mes.

T here’s no single fix fo r this, but the focus on the promotion of wellness, training of more professionals, finding better ways to deal with the issues relating to access to primary health care will all be a part of the solution to this important issue. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Amery: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Since the minister mentioned the Health Link line, some of my constituents called me and told me that they ha d to wait 25 minutes to get an answer. Could the minister address this situation? Mr. Mar: Well, Mr.

Speaker, certainly Health Link ha s demon- strated itself not only to be ver y effe ctive for providing 24-hour access to doctor approved, nurse delivered advice; it has also proven itself to be ve ry popular among Albertans. Last year the Capital Health Link line received close t o 400,000 ca lls, over a thousand calls a day. In Calgary the Health Link line has received up to 800

1674 Alberta Hansard May 15, 2003 calls a day. The num ber of ca lls will continue to g row as th e program is expanded throughout the province. Mr. Speaker, as at A pril of 20 03 seventy-one percent of all t he calls to Health L ink were answered within two minutes. B y June 2003 that response rate will improve so that 80 percent of calls will be answered within two minutes. In orde r to achieve that, we are training 10 to 12 new nurses each month, and we are increasing the number of full-time equivalents providing that important service. Air Quality at Holy Cross Hospital Dr. Taft: Mr.

Speaker, my questions are to the Minister of Infra- structure. Will th e minis ter in form t his Assembly what he has learned about his depa rtment’s testing for toxic m old at the Hol y Cross hospital? Mr. Lund: Well, Mr. Speaker, what I’ve learned is that that member has been trying to mislead Albertans, mislead this House, and in fact it looks to me, what I think has happened, that he’s even misled the privacy commissioner of . . . [interjections] Whatever. Ms Carlson: Mr. Speaker, point of order. Mr.

Lund: The fact is that I told the member on Monday and I told him again on Tuesday that the testing that was s tarted in the Holy Cross hospital was never completed. The Speaker: There was i ntervention there on a poi nt of order. There was use of a certain word three times. This is going to lead to a major flare-up at the conclusion of question period. The hon. member. Dr. Taft: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It’s just very important that we get this all on the record.

To the same minister: does the Department of Infrastructure have in its posses sion any lab results that spea k of tox ic mold at th e former Holy Cross hospital? Mr. Lund: Mr. Spe aker, I r eally take exception to this member continually trying to discredit the staff in my department. Yesterday he made co mments l ike: h as the depar tment s imply lo st th em? You’ll find this on page 1621 of Hansard.

What this has done is it has created a great deal of hardship as far as the department staff is concerned, and I thi nk that member owes particularly one of our staff, Sandy Fisher in Calgary, who was in charge of trying to find a place to house the Court of Appeal – in fact, the person that started this testing just yesterday sent an e-mail to us, and I will read the one very important sentence : “ Sandy Fi sher is a ware t hat I did not complete our report for the Holy Cross Hospital as the decision was made for the Court of Appeal not to move into this building.” The Speaker: I will ask that that be tabled, please, at the appropriate time.

The hon. member. 2:30 Dr. Taft: Thank you, Mr. Speak er. If people read carefully, they will see that he did not answer the question, so I will repeat this for the record. [interjections] Could we get order, please? Thank you. The Speak er: Order w ill come , hon. mem ber, whe n th e ho n. member recognizes: no

preambles on supplementary questions. The question, please. Dr. Taft: Is the minister saying that his department has never had possession of positive tests for toxic mold at the H oly C ross hospital? Yes or no will do. Mr. Lund: Mr. Speaker, once again I will put on the record what has happened. The fact is that when we were looking at locations to house the Court of Appeal, the Court of Appeal asked Mr. Tang Lee to do an air qua lity test, and clearly, as this s hows, the tests were never completed. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Highlands, followed by the hon. Member for Calgary-Fort.

Electricity Prices Mr. Mason: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Today the spring Legislative Assembly will come to a close. During the session gas bills went through the roof, and electricity deregulation continues to rob customers blind. Energ y consumers will look at this se ssion with its three months of speeches and wonder why it is that they’re worse off than ever before. T o the Minister of Energy: after three months of debate, petitions, letters, and hard-luck stories, how come consumers are still stuck with record-high energy bills? Mr. Smith: Well, Mr.

Speaker, the bills t hat are being sent out in Alberta today reflect real-time pricing. They reflect the marketplace of the day. There is no debt attached to those from a Crown basis. We’re seeing policies: an export policy, a market policy, a transmis- sion policy that continues to bring on new generation. We also see ourselves in a time, in an era, where, as the chief executive officer of ATCO reported yesterday, natural gas is at an all-time high. Mr. Mason: Mr.

Speaker, can the minister produce a single power bill of an individual Albertan whose costs for electricity are lower today than at the beginning of this session? Mr. Smit h: Well, Mr. Speaker , we don’t get into the habit of collecting power bills that are higher or lower . We haven’t even gone out and asked for them. I’m sure they’re around. In fact, I’ve seen bills that are in fact lower than they were prior to deregulation. What this member seems to conveniently forget is that prior to 2001 power was at 19 and a half cents a kilowatt-hour as opposed to the 4 cents and 6 cents that it is now. Mr. Mason: Mr.

Speake r, can the minister ide ntify a single municipality with lower power costs as a result of this government’s efforts during this session of the Assembly? Mr. Smith: Well, Mr. Speaker, there are 384 elected jurisdictions across Alberta, and we’ve listened and talked to them. They haven’t come up and said: gee, could you compare one against the other, pit municipalities against each other? W e think that this is one great province with one great government, and we’ll continue to look at it from a broad Alberta perspective. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Fort, followed by the hon.

Member for Edmonton-Centre. Education Property Taxes Mr. Cao: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. At a recent seniors’ conference held in my constituency where the hon. Ministe r of Seniors and I were invited as guest speakers, my constituent seniors asked me to bring to the government’s attention thr ee points. S enior citizens

May 15, 2003 Alberta Hansard 1675 have no objection to pa ying education tax es. Whil e incomes o f seniors are effectively fixed, their education taxes keep increasing alarmingly because it is based on increasing market values of their own residences. Number three is that our government’s health care policies encourage our Albertan seniors toward aging in place i n their own h omes. M y questi on today is to the hon. Minis ter of Learning. Could the Minister of Learning look into the increase in education tax creeping up against the fixed-income seniors? Dr. Oberg: Mr.

Speaker, when it comes to municipal taxation, my department is involved in the setting of the mill rate. This year the mill rate was frozen, which meant that if you had a $100,000 house this year and if you had a $100,000 house last year, you would pay exactly the same taxes. If your h ouse value went down, you paid less. If your house value went up, you paid more. When I set the mill rate, it is a type of thing that is set for the whole province. It is not set for one particular group of people. Mr. Speaker, I would be lieve that the ho n.

Minister of Seniors could probably answer that question more accurately as it specifi- cally applies to seniors. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Cao: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My last supplemental question is to the hon. Minister of Seniors.

Given that my constituent told me that her pension incr eased 1.6 percent thi s yea r while t he city assessment of her property increased by 10 percent for property tax and education purposes, could the minister look into this increase in property taxes and cost of living affecting fixed-income seniors and develop a better aging-in-place policy in tandem with the Minister of Health and Wellness? Thank you. The Speaker: The hon. minister. Mr. Woloshyn: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’m very pleased to hear the member reaffirm that seniors have been and are still willing to pay their fa ir share i n t his society.

Havin g said that, as I’ve mentioned previously in this House, I’m very concerned with seniors close to our thresholds who are succumbing to the increasing costs of rent, property tax, utilities, health care, and all sorts of associated items. In direct response to the property tax issue, I would like to have discussions with the AAMD and C and the AUMA to either freeze taxes as they apply to seniors or find some method to ensure that the increases aren’t esca lating at the rate that they are.

I k now how taxes are set, and I do know that property taxes, both municipal and sometimes the educat ion porti on, are ac celerating far beyond the ability of the seniors to absorb it in their budgets. The Speaker: Hon. members, might we revert briefly to Introduc- tion of Guests? [Unanimous consent granted] head : Introduction of G uests (reversion) The Speaker: The hon. Member for Little Bow. Mr. McFarland: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

As we wind down, it’s really a pleasure for me today to introduce to you and to all members of the Assembly a special mayor, from the town of Picture Butte, who has come up here to do some work with the AUMA today. Mr. Jon Stevens has an ex tensive financial background with the banks and after his retirement from the bank became a mayor for the town of Picture Butte. His nephew J ason has broug ht him ove r to the Legislature today, and if you look about five o r 10 feet to the left, you’ll see maybe some familiarity, a family face.

Mayor Jon is the brother of Barney Stevens, who is one of the staff with our Sergeant- at-Arms. I would li ke to ask them to pl ease rise and r eceive the traditional warm welcome of our Assembly. Members’ Statements The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Calder. Constitutional Reform Mr. Rathg eber: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Albert ans have never been shy about discussing and questioning our place in Confederation. Albertans have n ever been shy about proposing changes to our Confederation for the benef it of all Albertans and indeed of all Canadians.

However, often our eagerness for positive change has fa llen upon deaf ears, upon w ary and un convinced provincial governments and an uncaring and unconcerned federal government. However, Mr. Speaker, the winds across the country are starting to blow in a different direction, and they’re blowing in our favour.

Recent events have presented a window of opportunity for Alberta to be a bold l eader a nd reach out t o our colleag ues across all of Canada and try to bring about ne cessary and beneficial changes to Confederation not only for our own interests but for the interests of all of the provinces and of all Canadians. While each province may have its own specific interests, a common frustration is developing. The provinces are sic k of f ederal encroachment in areas properly under and affecting provincial jurisdiction.

The provinces are tired of federa l policies such as the Kyoto prot ocol, the f ederal gun registry, and the Canadian Wheat Board. 2:40 Mr. Speaker, in Newfoundland and La brador we now have cod fishermen soon to be out of work because an inept bureaucracy in Ottawa felt that it kne w how to best ma nage that province’s resources. The Prem ier of N ewfoundland and La brador has no w called for constitutional change to g ive that province more control over its own resources.

In Quebec the election of a new federalist Premier has affo rded us th e opportunity to work wi th a pow erful leader and friend, one concer ned with changing Confederation for the better ra ther than running away from Confederation, as his predecessor did. We are likely to soon be graced with a new Liberal Prime Minister in Ottawa, one who at least acknowledged that provincial and regional alienation is real and has at least expressed an interest in change, however timid that interest might be. With these developments in mind, now is the time, Mr. Speaker, to reach out t o our colleag ues.

Now i s the tim e to persua de our colleagues why we need Senate reform. No w is the time to show why t he pr ovinces need a say on treaties that aff ect provincial jurisdiction. Now is the time to start meeting regularly, formally or informally, with our colleagues to build a consensus. The time for constitutional renewal is now. Democracy in Alberta Dr. Taft: Mr. Speaker, the people of this province treasure democ- racy as a pillar of our society. From Medicine H at to High Level, from Fort McMurray to Waterton, Albertans have spoken loud and

1676 Alberta Hansard May 15, 2003 clear that the pri nciples of democracy, transparency, and account- ability are sta ples of our syste m of g overnment. Yeste rday the government introduced a motion which would propose to create an elected, effective, and equal Senate for our country. Let there be no doubt that the A lberta Liberal caucus, the O fficial Opposition of Alberta, fully supports and e ndorses a t riple E Sena te for our country, but while the government promotes democracy to others, they are also sending the message to Albertans and all Canadians: do as I say, not as I do.

We have seen stunning examples from this government that there is indeed a democratic deficit in our province. Under this adminis- tration elected bodies such as school boards have been fired by the government, not by the people who elected them. Regional health authority elections were scrapped barely a year after they occurred, and the members of the boards who were elected were fired, not by the citizens of Alberta but by the minister’s office. Now democrati- cally e lected stude nts’ unions f ace the c hopping block of this government with Bill 43.

Shell legislation is brought forward in this Assembly which allows the details of government policy, which affects all Albertans, to be made in the back rooms and behind closed doors. Standing policy committees, who receive in excess of 600,000 taxpayer dollars, are largely affairs which are clos ed to the public and nongover nment representatives. There is no lobbyist regist ry i n our province. Neither is there whistle-blower legislation. I could g o on and on, Mr. Speaker. This government has created a democratic deficit.

If we are going to advocate to others that democratic government must be revitalized, we must ensure that our own backyard is taken care of as well. Otherwise, no one will take the effort seriously. Thank you. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Fort. Provincial Fiscal Policies Mr. Cao: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Alberta is truly blessed with the splendour and richness of the land, with the positive, can-do attitude of its citizens, with the free enterprising spirit of its businesses, and with a high quality of living. I must say that all of these do not just happen.

Many othe r jurisdicti ons and place s around the g lobe having similar or even better geography cannot achieve what Albertans have. The q uestion is: why? To me it is the po sitive leadership in government, in businesse s, and in f amilies. It is the dedication of the government to take on challenges, to make changes for an even be tter Alberta. W hen ot her jurisdictions are row ing through rough wa ters, A lberta is hovercrafting c almly over the waves. Our public mortgage debt came down from around $22 billion a few years ago to around $4 billion at the moment.

Now Albertans can easily visualize the mortgage payoff day. Alberta has success- fully for the l ast 10 years stayed the course of spending within its means. I still remember standing in front of the Legislature with my colleagues witnessing the symbolic cutting of our province’s credit cards. Those are the outstanding achievements of the past. Most recently, in our spring session I saw another landmark, the Alberta sustainability fund, which provides steady and reliable so urces for public funding.

Talking about funding, where else in the world but in Alberta does public spending keep increasing, from about $15 billion a few years ago to $20.8 billion this coming year, for a population of just under 3 million? If anyone thinks or talks about government budget cuts, they are not ta lking reality. Mr. Speaker, Alberta has a spe nding problem; more specifically, sharing the public dollars. May I say that Alberta has pizza-sharing syndrome. Indeed, our Alberta pizza keeps growing from 15 inches to 20 inches, but those partaking in the pizza still see their own slice as small. Thank you.

Role of the Opposition in a Parliamentary Democracy Ms Carlson: Mr. Speaker, an outburst by a member on the govern- ment side of the House claiming the opposition is always negative, a government member who complains publicly that all the opposi- tion does is criticize, and the outright hostility that meets opposition questions when tho se questions m ake gov ernment mem bers uncomfortable demand that this Chamber take a serious look at the role of the opposition in our democracy.

The devaluat ion of opposition activity is a gra ve conce rn, for without an opposition dem ocracy di sappears and authoritarian governments take over. As Gerald Schmitz notes in his

article on Opposition in a Parliamentary Democracy, the roots of our system go back t o Athens. Self-government was based on the notion that the minority could by peaceful means seek to persuade the majority to their po int of view and that citizens are both the rulers and the ruled. Much has changed . For example, now elected representatives speak for the population. What is constant, however, is the principle that government only governs with the consent of the gover ned.

Once that is accepted, it follows that the minority accepts the right of the majority to make decisions as long as there is respect for the minority to disagree with these d ecisions and pro pose alternative actions. That is what seems to be so difficult for some members to understand. Our democratic system exists only as long as Albertans are able to speak both through the government as well as through the opposition. The very leg itimacy of the majority is made pos sible through the existence of a voice for the minority. Prime Minister Lester Pearson captured well the argument I’m putting forward.

Speaking of the opposition, he said: They rightly in sisted on th eir righ t to opp ose, attack and criticize , to engage in t hat cu t an d th rust o f d ebate , so oft en an d s o s tro ngly recomm ended by those c oncerned with the vigour and hea lth of Parl iament and th e heal th of democracy . I cannot forbe ar t o add, however, that t he applicat ion of t his procedure has, in the past, been occa sion ally resen ted b y thos e w ho a re cu t and thru st at. Last fall the Prem ier of A lberta also acknowledged these com- ments.

We w ould like to s ee s ome changes in this Legislat ive Assembly this fall. head : Statement by the Speaker Sessional Statistics The Speaker: Hon. members, before we go on to the next point in the Routine, we’re currently in the 25th Legislature, and I thought the hon. members might appreciate some of these statistics. In the First Session of the 25th Legislature, which was the spring session of 2001, the Assembly sat on 25 different days but also 17 evenings for a period of 42 sittings and during that time accumulated 9,152 minutes in the House, or 152.53 hours.

In the spring sitting of 2002, which was the Second Session, the House sat on 37 days but also 26 e venings for a total of 63 sittings and sat in t he House for 12,395 minutes, or 206.58 hours. In this current spring session, the Third Session of the 25th Legislature, we are now on our 46th day, but we’ve also sat 31 evenings, for a total of 77. In terms of the total hours, to last evening at 5:30 it was 252.83 hours, a total of 15,170 minutes. So in the First Session, 2001, a total of 42 sittings; in the Second Session, 2002, 63 sittings; and in the Third Session, 2003, to date 77 sittings.

May 15, 2003 Alberta Hansard 1677 head : Present ing Pet itions The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Riverview. Dr. Taft: Thank y ou, Mr . Speaker . I prese nt on behalf of the Member for Edm onton-Glengarry an app roved petiti on with 860 names of Albertans who are petitioning the Legislative Assembly to urg e t he Government t o ackno wledge that the maint enance and construction costs of sc hools , hos pit als an d roads a re part of t he provi ncial debt and to co nsider spli tting t he budget surplus bet ween the m one tary de bt an d the infra struc ture d ebt.

Thank you. 2:50 head : Notices of Motions The Speaker: The hon. Government House Leader. Mr. Hancock: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise pursuant to Standing Order 34(2)(

a) to g ive notice of a m otion that w ritten quest ions appearing on the Order Paper do stand and retain their places. There being no motions for returns, there are none to stand a nd retain their places. head : Tabling R eturns and R eports Mr. Lund: I’m really happy to table this e-mail from Tang Lee. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Lougheed. Ms Graham: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I’m tabling five copies of the report At a Crossroads by Human Resources Developm ent Canada and Statistics Canada, January 2002, which is a comprehen- sive survey of Canadian youth 18 to 20 years of age as at December 1999 as to their educational participation, their completion rates, and their labour market participation. This report at page 46 suggests that Alberta students of this age group have the lowest postsecondary participation in Can ada at 42 pe rcent, which was th e basis of my questions to the Minister of Learning today. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Glenora. Mr.

Hutton: Thank y ou very much, Mr. Speaker . I ha ve th e required number of copies for a ta bling on behalf of the hon. Member for West Yellowhead requesting the Minister of Learning and the Minister of Infrastructure to meet with the concerned parents of Grande Yellowhead regiona l di vision No. 35 over the school building space in Edson, signed by 132 concerned constituents. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Currie. Mr. Lord: Thank y ou, Mr. Speak er. I ris e today to table the requisite number of cop ies of six diff erent reports, all re lating to mold.

The f irst one is entitled Mold Neurotoxicity: Validity, Reliability and Baloney. It is a meticulous and detailed debunking of the latest and fastest growing fad in the personal injury litigation business, that bein g the t oxic mold scare. It’s authored by noted debunker Dr. Paul R. Lees-Haley. It’s taken from the Quackwatch web site. The second

article is entitled Experts Taking Issue with “Toxic Mold”. It’s along the same line as the first report. It takes issue with the words “toxic mold,” which it calls an “alarmist term originally propagated not by sc ientists but by eit her the news media or trial lawyers.” The third report is from the Toxic Mold Resource Center.

It talks about toxic mold such as pe nicillium and advertises that there are “numerous toxic mold testing companies, that provide a wide range of results.” The fourth is from the Environmental Law Advisory, a monthly update on law policy and strategy, outlining how exposure to mold is one of the f astest g rowing a reas of litigation, how it’s being blamed for everything, how mold is everywhere from bread, cheese, wine to penicilli n, and that des pite conf licting and i ncomplete scientific data, juries are handing down verdicts anyway. The final tw o, Mr.

Speak er, are on a new te chnology called electro-osmotic pulse technology, which for an operating cost equivalent to one 60-watt light bulb is easily and dramatically drying out large government buildings, basements, an d other institutions, thus solving the problem. If I could, Mr. Speaker, a fast quote from the fifth article: “Clammy, smelly, dank, and unhealthy. But enough about politics. We’re talking basements here – specifically, a new way to keep them dry.” Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Dunford: Mr. Speaker, I have my answers to the ques tions from yesterday in question period. The Speaker: The hon.

Member for Edmonton-Centre. Ms Blakeman: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have two tablings today. The fir st is a c opy of a n announcem ent that Pro Coro Canada’s executive director, Miki Andrejevic, has received one of the Queen’s golden jubilee medals. The second is another release, on Bottom Line Productions, which was one of Edmonton’s first independe nt arts m anagement and public relations firms. They’re celebrating their 10th year in the arts business in Edmonton. Thank you. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Riverview. Dr. Taft: Yes. I have three tablings, Mr. Speaker.

The first is at the request of the author of the letter, Gerald Zagrosh, who runs the Pain Elimination and Tissue Regeneration Clinic. It’s a letter that was sent to many MLAs in which he explains his theory and approach to eliminating pain. The second: th e appropriate number of copies of the teachers’ arbitrated settlement ag reement, w hich was never ta bled in this Legislature and which I’ve been asked to table.

It’s the one that has led to the cur rent situation with funding and teacher layoffs in the schools, and it says among other things t hat it wi ll be up to the provincial government to determine how to deal with the reality of this arbitration as it m akes its funding de cisions for that year and beyond.

The third is at the request o f the Mem ber for Edm onton-Glen- garry: 388 people who have signed a petition urging the government to ackn owledge that the m aintenance and construction costs of schools, hos pitals a nd r oad s are part o f th e pro vin cial de bt an d to consider spli tting t he budget surpl us between t he monetary debt and the in frastr uctu re de bt. Thank you. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar. Mr. MacDonald: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I have one tabling this afternoon. It is copies of a petition that was organized in the Manning district.

This petition states: We, the undersigned residents of Alberta, petition t he Legislative As sembly to urge t he Government to acknowledge that the mainte-

1678 Alberta Hansard May 15, 2003 nance and construction costs of schools, hospitals and roads a re part of the p rovin cial de bt an d to co nsid er spl itting the budg et sur plus betw een m one tary de bt an d inf rastru cture deb t. Thank you. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Strathcona. Dr. Pannu: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’ve got one tabling. It’s a letter from Kelly Duffin, presi dent and CEO of the Canadian Hearing Society, that is dated May 14, 2003, and it is addressed to the Minister of Learning . I’ve be en copied on thi s letter.

The society is requesting the minister to intervene with the president’s office of Grant MacEwan College to reconsider his decision to close the American sign language English interpreting program. Thank you. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Highlands. Mr. Mason: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I’m tabling pages 36 to 38 of a Calgary Catholic school district document, the 2003- 2004 district operating budget, showing that the district’s utility bill has doubled.

The Speaker: Hon. members, annually 12,000-plus people visit the Legislative Assembly in the capacity of visitors, and many of them do not have Eng lish as the ir first language. So t o ac commodate them and to make them feel a little more familiar and comfortable with the Assembly, we’ve created a new booklet called English as a Second L anguage: Field Trip Guide to the Alberta Legislature. I’m tabling copies here and will have one provided for all members. Members, there’s a test included in the booklet. head : Pro jected G over nmen t Busin ess The Speaker: The Official Opposition House Leader.

Ms Carlso n: Thank yo u, Mr. Speak er. I am rising to a sk the Government House Le ader if he’s bringing us back next week to deal with those bills that are still on the Order Paper. The Speaker: The hon. Government House Leader. Mr. Hancock : Well, thank y ou, Mr. Speak er. It depe nds on progress this afternoon as to whether we come back next week. If we do come back next week, the Order Paper outlines a number of bills that would be available to us.

We have very important bills like the Family Law Act, the Workers’ Compensation Amendment Act, 2003, the Personal Information Protection Act, the Post-secondary Learning Act. So if we’re here next week, we can anticipate dealing with those bills. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Ellerslie on a point of order. Point of Order Parliamentary Language Ms Carlson: Yes, Mr. Spe aker, I did rise on a point of orde r.

I reference Beauchesne 489 and would also as an additional reference use the memo that you send at the beginning of each session to all members outlining decorum in the House and specifically language that is unparliamentary. Beauchesne 489 specifically does reference language that’s been ruled unp arliamentary since 1 958.

In the ex change between the Minister of Infrastructure and the Member for Edmonton-Riverview this senior minister in the government, who has been here way longer than me , who ve ry w ell know s the rule s, used the term “mislead” or “misleading,” as you correctly pointed out earlier, three times in his very first response to the Mem ber f or Edmonton- Riverview. Mr. Speaker, that is unparliamentary language, and we would ask him to withdraw those comments. The Speaker: The hon. minister. Mr. Lund: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I think what has happened this week relativ e to com ments from the Mem ber for Edm onton- Riverview is the issue that he’s been raising over toxic mold, which we acknowledge and believe can be a serious issue. However, as far as I’m concerned, leaving an impre ssion that in fact we had done testing at the Holy Cross hospital and that we had found mold and that we did not disclose that I was finding very offensive. 3:00 As a matter of fact, it started on Monday, and we’ll find that in the Monday afternoon edition, May 12, of Hansard on page 1569.

I’m not going to read all of his co mments, but I do w ant to show how this has progressed to a point where I’m not sure of the motive. It is really concerning to me. He starts off by saying: Now the Liber al opposi tion has l earned that tes ts we re co ndu cted in the sum mer of 2 001 for m old at t he for mer Holy Cro ss hospi tal and that the re sults o f thes e te st s shou ld be of con cern to the pub lic . . .

To the Minister of Inf rastruct ure: gi ven that exposure to t oxic mol ds can lead to hea dac hes , nau sea, resp iratory illnes s, bl eeding of t he lungs, and can cer, w hy ha ve tes ts for m old at t he H oly C ross hospital never been made availabl e to the publ ic? That very statement would seem to indicate to me that there wa s mold found and that because it is har mful – and we’re not arguing that situation – somehow we were allowing the public to be exposed to it. Later in the same day he said: M r.

Speaker, give n that there are 42 long-term care r eside nts as we ll as dozens of n urses, d octor s, a nd oth er s up port s taf f at the H oly Cross, wi ll the m ini ste r im mediate ly releas e all test re sults for m old at that site? I t seems the site f ailed the test s. Well, Mr. Speake r, onc e again that would indicate to me that we were failing and that, in fact, there was a d anger to the people that were in the facility, that their health was in danger.

In my answers to the member on Monday I clearly indicated to him that I was aware that there had been some air quality examina- tions proceeded with but not concluded to the best of my knowledge. I did not on that day have absolute p roof that it had not been followed through to completion, but from memory I was remember- ing that, in fact, before we ever got very far down the way, for other reasons we had abandoned that site.

Then on Tuesday , May 13, on page 1620 w e find in the first question to me the comment, “Yesterday the Minister of Infrastruc- ture admitted that tests for toxic mold had be en conducted a t the Holy Cross hospital.” I did not say that, Mr. Speaker. I did not say that ther e had been tests f or toxic m old. Knowing full w ell, I explained it once ag ain to the m ember that the te sts we re not completed. I knew by T uesday that they had definitely not bee n completed.

He goes on with the second question: “Can the minister assure Calgarians that al l appropriate steps were followed when the test results were obtained from the Holy Cross?” We did not receive any tests, because they were not completed. There were some samples taken and sent to a lab, but clearly there has to be much more work done to find if, in fact, there’s anything that is injurious to health. Then we go on the next question, and he says, “Your department

May 15, 2003 Alberta Hansard 1679 did the tests.” That is absolutely false. Our department did not do any tests. As a matter of fact, the way the process was working, for every building that we did an asse ssment on to see if , in fac t, the Court of Appeal could be housed there, the Court of Appeal hired a person by the name of T ang L ee to do som e tests. We didn’t. [interjection] Somebody over on that side said: we paid for them. Well, the fact is that after the testing was done, we got an invoice. The test would’ve been sent to the Court of Appeal.

Then he say s, “I hope the y have n’t lost the f ile.” It’ s ve ry discouraging to think that he would insult our good people that work for the Alberta government, our employees who are very conscien- tious and good, and to have a person stand up in the House and make those kinds of comments. He g oes on, “Why has the depar tment chosen to sit on the r esults, or have they simply been lost?” Once again, an insult to our staff th at he wo uld mak e those ki nds of comments. I can also tell you, Mr.

Speaker, that the owners of the building had another independent group come in, and we do have a letter from them saying that in the r esults from their tests there were no toxic molds in the Holy Cross hospital. That was not of great interest to me, because the fact is that we were not going to go into that facility anyway, but I have since found that. Now, this whole exchange in here for over two days has caused a great deal of c oncern for me and for the department. If there w as something, then we wanted to make absolutely sure that it w as cleared up.

So you will see from the paper that I’ve filed today that we sent an e -mail t o Mr. L ee and as ked him that if he has any results, could he give them to us because we need those. He writes back, “Sandy Fisher is aware that I did not complete our report for the Holy Cross Hospital as the decision was made for the Court of Appeal not to move into this building.” That’s what I’ve been saying on Monday; I’ve been saying it on Tuesday. So if my verbiage today created some great disorder on the other side of the Hous e – perhaps I s hould’ve sa id: in my opinion, it misled me.

If using the whole Assembly, then I apologize for that. But I really have difficulty when someone would stand in this House for two days and make comments that would make me believe that he is now casting an aspersion over me and my department and, in fact, out in the public, creating a real concern about the facility being safe. So with that, Mr. Speaker, like I say, if it was a problem with my using the strong language that I used, I will say that I should’ve been more careful and said that I feel that I was misled. I find this just so offensive that we would hav e this kind of perf ormance in this Chamber.

The Speaker: Hon. Member for Edmonton-Riverview, do you have a comment with respect to this or not? Dr. Taft: Mr. Speaker, this issue is far from over, but I do under- stand the minister’s comments. I accept his apology, and as far as I’m concerned, that’s fine. Thank you. The Speaker: Hon. members, this is one of those situations where the usage of the words almost come t o a draw . Beauchesne 489 very, very clearly says that certain words are unparliamentary, and then in the next section, s ection 490, it ba sically says that the expression is par liamentary.

In terms of the documents that I provided to all hon. members, there are many, many examples where on some occasions they are ruled parliam entary a nd on other occasions they’re ruled unparliamentary, and everything has to do with the context. 3:10 I let this go because I think it was worthy of that. The bottom line is that the hon. minister has basically said that he apologizes for the usage of the words in their context. He may or may not have had to do that depending on whether there would have been a ruling in this case. The hon. M ember for Edmonton-Riverview accepts it.

The one bottom line for m e is that c ontext means everything an d that decorum is all-important. I’m sure we’ll have a great opportunity over the next number of months, so I’m going to provide an assignment called homework to all hon. members: read chapters 10 and 11 in Beauchesne, please. Now, if my eyes are correct, we have a visit or in the A ssembly today who is one of the g reat parliamentarians of this count ry. I believe that that’s the Hon. Mitchell Sharp. If so, he has d istin- guished this country for decades in national and international work. Mr.

Sharp, you honour us with your presence. head : Orders of t he Day head : Government Motions Senate Reform 23. Mr. Jonson moved:

Be it resolved that given that the current process of appoint- ing Senators offends Canadians’ democr atic values, has deprived that House of political l egitimacy and efficacy, and has prevented the Senate from being effective in protecting the interests of the provinces of Canada, the Legislative Assembly directs the government of Alberta to consult with Albertans on reforming the Senate through the f ollowing c onstitutional amendment; namely , by repe aling se ctions 21 to 34 of the Constitution Act, 1867, and substituting the following: 21

(1) The Senate sha ll consist of el ected members called Senators.

(2) Each Province shall be represented in the Senate by 6 Senators.

(3) Each Territory shall be represented in the Senate by 2 Senators. 22

(1) Subject to this sec tion, the Sena tors representing a Province or Terri tory shall be elec ted by th e el ectors of that Province or Territory.

(2) The legisla ture of a Province or of a Terr itory ma y make laws relating to the election of Senators representing that Province or Territory, including the method of election and the procedure for the election.

(3) Except in the case o f by-elections, and e xcept in the case of the first election held pursua nt to this section, the election of one-half of the Senators representing a Province or Territory shall be held in conjunction with the general elections of members of the legi slative assem bly of the Province or of the Territory.

(4) Except as otherw ise provide d i n subsection ( 6) and unless the office is sooner vacated, and except in the case of a Senator elected in a by-election, the term of office of a Senator re presenting a Province or Territory continues until the official announcement of the results of the Senate elections held in conjunc tion with the second ge neral election in that P rovince or Territory after the election of that Senator.

(5) The first election held pursuant to this

section in each

1680 Alberta Hansard May 15, 2003 Province or Territ ory sha ll be for the elect ion of all t he Senators representing that Province or Territory.

(6) The term of office for one-half of the Senators elected from each Provinc e and Territory at the first election held pursuant to this sect ion in each Provinc e or Ter ritory continues until the official announcement of the results of the Senate elect ions hel d in con junction with the n ext general election in that Province or Territory.

(7) In relation to the Senators representing that Province or Territory, the legislature of a Province or of a Territory may make laws e stablishing which Se nators subse ction ( 6) applies to. 23

(1) Subject to this section, a per son is qualif ied to be a candidate and to be elected Senator if the perso n is eligible to be a candidate and to be elected as a member of the House of Commons.

(2) A person is not qualified to be elected as a Senator or to remain a Senator if the person (

a) is a member of the House of Commons or of the legislative assembly of a Province or of a T erri- tory, or (

b) is a Minister of the Crown.

(3) If any question arises respecting the qualificat ion of a Senator, the question shall be heard and determined by the Senate. 24

(1) A Senato r may resign his or her sea t by deli vering a resignation to the Governor General.

(2) When a Senator resigns his or h er sea t in accordance with subsection (1), the seat immediately becomes vacant. 25

(1) A by-election to fill a vacancy in the Senate representa- tion of a Province or Territory need not be called if (

a) the vacancy occurs during the last year of the legal life of the legislative assembly of the Province or of the Territory, and (

b) the term of office of the Senator who vacated that seat would have expired with the announcement of the results of the Senate elections held in conjunc- tion with the next general election in the Province or Territory.

(2) The term of office for a Senator elected at a by-election shall be for the balanc e of t he term of the Se nator who vacated the seat. 26.The Senate may establish its own procedure for the election of the Speaker of the Senate and for the conduct of the Senate’s business. 27.Subject to

section 53, bills propose d to the Parlia ment of Canada may originate in the Senate equally as in the House of Commons. 28

(1) Where a bill is presented to the Senate after being passed by the House of Commons, if the Senate (

a) votes against passing the bill, (

b) passes the bill with am endments that ar e not acceptable to the House of Commons, or (

c) fails to vote on the bill within 180 days after it is presented to the Senate, the bill may be brought before the House of Commons and if again passed by the House of Commons, with such amendments made by the Senate as are concurred in by the House, the bill may be presented to the Governor General for assent, and when assented to has the s ame force a nd effect as if passe d in that form by the Senate.

(2) In a bill pres ented to the Governor General under this section, the words of enactment shall be amended by striking out any reference to the Senate.

(3) An alteration to a bill to give effect to subsection (2) is deemed not to be an amendment of the bill.

(4) This

section doe s not apply to a bi ll refe rred to in

section 30. 29. If the Speaker of the Senate or of the House of Commons rules that the subj ect ma tter of a bill is w holly or pa rtially within

section 94A or 95, the bill may be repassed by the House of Commons under

section 28 only if (

a) the percentage of the members voting who vote to pass the bill is greater than the percentage of Senators voting who voted to reject the bill or pass it with amendments, or (

b) the Senate fails to vote on the bill within 180 days after it is presented to the Senate. 30. Where a bill is presented to the Senate after being passed by the House of Commons and the Speaker of the Senate or of the House of Commons rules that the bill (

a) directly affects in any way, including by taxation, the natural resources of a Province, (

b) authorizes the expenditure of federal funds in areas of provincial jurisdiction under sections 92, 92A and 93, (

c) is binding on a Province, or (

d) declares a lo cal wor k or underta king to be of the general advantage of Canada or f or the adva ntage of two or more Provinces if t he Senate votes against pass ing the bill or passes it with amendments not accept able to th e House of C ommons, no further proceedings may be taken on the bill. 31. Appointments to the Supreme Court of Canada and to the Federal Court of Appeal have no effect until they are ratified by the Senate. 32. No treaty shall be ratified by Canada unless the Senate has authorized Canada to ratify the treaty.

And be it further resolved that given that the Cons titution establishes Canada as a federal system of government in which the sovereign powers of the Cr own are divided between two separate but equal orde rs of gov ernment and that t he fe deral Parliament is com prised of two Ho uses, the Ho use of Com- mons, which is designed to reflect the democratic principle of representation by population, and a Senate, which is designed to reflect the fe deral nature of Cana da, and that C anada is a parliamentary democracy that has constitutionally enshrined the democratic ri ght of every citizen of Canada to vote in an election of me mbers of the House of Commons and of th eir Legislative Assem bly, the Legislative A ssembly direc ts the government of Alberta to initiate discussions with the govern- ment of Canada and the governments of all other provinces and territories leading to the reform of the Senate.

Mr. Jonson: Mr. Speaker, the resolution signals Alberta’s intention to engage in consultations on meaningful Senate reform. Previous measures the government has suggested for Senate reform have been dismissed by some as h alfhearted and piecemeal. We have tak en these criticisms seriously. As such, we have included a proposal for a constitutiona l amendm ent within the body of the resoluti on. Previous measures we have suggested did not contemplate amending the Constitution to reform the Senate.

The resolution calls for the Assembly to direct the government to engage in consultat ions with ot her provinces, the fe deral govern- ment, and Alber tans on how to reform the Senate based on the constitutional amendment proposal in the resolution. The constitu- tional amendm ent proposal i s based on the report of the 1985

May 15, 2003 Alberta Hansard 1681 Alberta select special committee on upper House reform and a draft prepared by Alberta officials during the 1992 constitutional negotia- tions. Simply put, Mr. Speak er, the proposal calls for a triple E Senate, one that is equal, elected, and effective. Mr. Speaker, in our fede ral system the Senate was designed to represent the provinces’ interests in Parliament. The current Senate lacks a demo cratic foundation and theref ore is not pe rforming its function. Under Alberta’s proposal Senators would be elected and not appoint ed by the Prim e Minister alone.

T here would be six Senators representing each province and two representing each territory, and a ref ormed Senate would have v eto power over any legislation affecting the powers of the provinces. Some might wonder why we are introducing this resolution at this time. We need to look back no further than Quebec and its idea for a council of the federation or Newfoundland, where a royal commis- sion is examining that province’s place in Confederation, to realize that provinces continue to f eel frustration with federal institutions and federal/provincial relations.

The federal government has failed to recognize this continued disenchantment and has not accepted its proper leadership role in addressing these issues. Mr. Speaker, if it takes op ening up the C onstitution to ac hieve a better functioning Confederation, then we should do it. In the meantime, Mr. Speaker, the government will be advancing the t hree intergovernmental initiatives the Premier has bee n advocating for, those being annua l f irst ministers’ meetings, involving the provinces meaningfully in negotiations over interna- tional agreements, and appointing Senators from provincial nominee lists.

We will bring these ideas as well as this resolution forward for discussion at the W estern Pr emiers’ Conference in J une and the annual Premiers’ Conference. I will be advancing the resolution at the intergovernmental level as w ell with my colleagues across the country. This resolution gives Albertans, Canadians, and governments the opportunity to seriousl y con sider com prehensive reform s of the Senate. A reformed Senate, one that is elected, equal, and effective, would provide a balance to the House of Commons and force the federal government to make better decisions on a day-by-day basis.

However, this is not going to be an easy task, but with resp ect to such an important issue, Mr. Speaker, the effort – every effort – is certainly worthwhile and needed to be put forward. With that, Mr. Speaker, I would at this time adjourn debate on this motion. [Motion to adjourn debate carried] head : Government Bills and Orders head: Third Reading Bill 40 Appropriation Act, 2003 The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Finance. Mrs. Nelson : Thank yo u very much, Mr. Speaker . I am very pleased to move third reading of Bill 40, the Appropri ation Act , 2003. Mr. Mason: Mr.

Speaker, just on a point of order or perhaps y ou could provide some guidance. On the motion of the government that was just adjourned, it has no force and effect as the policy of this Legislature unless it’s ultimately passed. Is that not correct? The Speaker: The debate was just adjourned. We’re coming back to it on Monday. The hon. Leader of the Official Opposition. Dr. Nicol: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise to speak this afternoon to third reading on the Appr opriation Act, 2003. I just have a few comments in terms of a

summary of the process and the al location of dollars that we’ve seen as we went through Committee of Supply and second re ading on the appr opriation and c ommittee on the appropriations. The thing t hat I re flect ba ck on as I followe d the debate and participated in some of it is the idea that we need to be more explicit on how we develop our budget processes on a needs base. I don’t mean here that we just have to g o o ut an d give peop le or give agencies what they ask for.

What I’m talking about when I say that we need to make sure that the budgeting process is needs based is I’m suggesting that what we have to do is look at, in effect, model- ing expenditures in each one of our departments where the costs are built around how we deal with putting together appropriate delivery systems for those services. We have to make sure that these delivery systems are tar geted to ward a particular degree of eff iciency or effectiveness in carrying out the mandate of that department.

I’d give an example in the sense that we’ve heard the minister as recently as question period today talk about how some school boards seem to be making due with their budget and some can’t make due with their budget. Well, what are the characteristics of those school boards that can an d the on es that can’t? Th ese are the k inds of things that need to be brought into the budgeting debate.

Hopefully, the education commission will address some of those when it reports this fall, but that’s the kind of thing that we need to be more transparent about when we talk about our budgeting process so that Albertans understand what the base of the expenditure pattern is rather than just t hat it’s up 9 percent or it’s up 2 perce nt or it’s down 5 percent from last year. That’s not enough for Albertans if we want to be able to go out and say that these are the criteria and this is the basis under which the budget was put in place.

I guess the other thing that we have to look at is how we deal with the budgeting process in terms of stability. I want to really congratu- late the government and the minister this budget system for putting in place their stabilization mechanisms. It’s important that as we go through this process, we look at some of the terminology we use, and I think that for Albertans’ sake we need to kind of standardize some of that terminology that we’re using so that they understand what we’re talking about.

If we can make it so that it fits with co mmon usage, then we wo uld be better of f as w e talk a bout all of our different funds, the function of those funds, like how they’re going to be used and what they ’ll be used for and what their purpose is. This is one of the things that when we look at the new fund that was created this year called the sustainability fund, in effe ct it’s a stability fund. It’s not a sustainability fund. Sustainability has got to do with the ability to continue a trend as opposed to taking out the ups and downs of a cycle.

This is the kind of thing that we have to make sure that we build in because in the context of the questions that have bee n asked by Albertans this year, Albertans do not see the education budget as sustainable. Yet w hen they look at i t, fu nding for tha t education budget, especially in the last six y ears, has been rather stable. It’s been growing without a lot of cy cles in it.

So this is the kind of thing that we need to make sure that we work out. 3:20 I guess the other comment that I want to talk a little bit about in terms of the budg et is: how do we m easure the proces s we go through here relative to Albertans in setting our priorities? One of the big things we’ve heard as the Official Opposition as we’ve gone through the budgeting process this year is that there doesn’t seem to be an appropria te priori ty given to funding f or education. Mr.

1682 Alberta Hansard May 15, 2003 Speaker, I will s ay tha t that has be en by f ar the big gest ar ea of concern in terms of the actual dollars for the budget because it’s the one where we really see significant thre ats of c utbacks from the status positi on.

I f we look at it, you know, in term s of what Albertans are telling us, they see that education funding as real ly providing appropriate opportunities for all youth, and they see that as we limit the system, the perception is t hat young Albertans that learning doesn’t come quite as easy to are the ones that are suffering; they don’t quite get the full support in the classroom that they should be getting. So they’re asking: what is going on there? In the health care area the only real concern that’s been expressed regularly to me anyway has been the issue of access.

Once they’re in the system, most Albertans are reasonably pleased with the care, but they still see the waiting lists as being an access issue. So that’s another priority that we need to start to address. The other are a of conc ern tha t’s come up with the budgeting process this year that a number of Albertans have talked to us about is: how do we develop a sustainable infrastructure program?

I think the new program that’s here now, es pecially w ith the cat ch-up money that’s been put in o ver the next t hree years and i f we can manage to keep the budget in the billion-dollar range in the Ministry of Infrastructure, should be sustainable as long as we have the catch- up dollars in the other areas. I think that if we can get that message to Albertans, that will help.

It may take a number of y ears for the catch-up to occ ur, but w e’ve heard a numbe r of people submit petitions that have asked for some kind of a public statement that if we do have sur pluses, ther e’ll be som e allocat ion, and they ’re suggesting 50-50 between catch-up on the infrastructure and pay- down of our fiscal debt. I think we have to look at that, especially in terms of the fact that some years more of our debt matures, some years less of our debt matures.

To put an absolute on it, we need to make sure that there’s a trend there that reflects where we’re going and that we’re willing to commit to the fact that that infrastructure debt has to be caught up. I guess the other thing that we need to look at in terms of some of the budgeting processes is: how do we deal with uncertainty? How do we dea l with ris k?

I know the sustai nability fund that th e government has cre ated thi s yea r is kind of a reser ve pool for unplanned risk, but if we’re going to make sure that that is manage- able over time, I would ask and suggest to the Minister of Finance that next year in the business plans we may have some actuarial data on the real risk items that are in the budget like the ag programs, like forest fires, like the disaster payments, support fo r municipalities, say, in extreme wea ther so that we ca n, in effect, see where and whether or not the long -term stab ility and workability of that budgeting process is in place.

I think that’s kind of where we need to go on that. The oth er one is tha t if w e’re going to continue to bui ld our budgets, we need to in effect make sure that Albertans understand how we do tha t bu dgeting process, how we come up with the numbers that are given to m inisters. I am not a real f an, Mr. Speaker, of the idea of saying: w ell, it’s just a 10 percent increase over last year. That leads to perc entage expectations. You know, you gave us 10 percent last year; you should give us 10 percent this year.

We’ve got to be able to make sure that our budget changes are based on true economic factors like indexes of appropriate costs for that ministr y, dem ographic cha nges th at af fect tha t min istry, economic cycle ch anges that affect that m inistry. I’d like to see some of those things built into the budget planning process for next year and the business plans for next year. I guess, Mr. Speaker, in a way what I’m talking about is sending signals about what we’ll be looking for next year in the budget as opposed to making strong comments about the adequacy or inade- quacy of this year’s budget.

When we get to thir d reading on the appropriation bill, we all know that there’s not too much more we can do to change a line item in the budget. With that, Mr. Spe aker, my caucus told me that if I took my 90 minutes, they were going to walk out on me. So with those few comments, I would lik e to say that I think we’ve all enjoy ed th e debate that went on for the budget process. We’ve really brought out some di fferences of opinion about w here pu blic expenditures should be, and we’ll see over the next year how Albertans react to that. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. The Speaker: The hon.

Member for Edmonton-Highlands. Mr. Mason: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. We would hate to see another walkout of the Liberal caucus, especially if it was initiated by the Liberal leader. Mr. Speaker, in the hopes of keeping people glued to their chairs, I would like to rise and speak to third reading of Bill 40. There are many aspect s of this bill, I think, that bear quite a bit of close scrutiny.

I’m going to restrain myself, as the Leader of the Official Opposition has well, in terms of going over them in any great detail, but I do want to raise a number of points, and then I’d like to come to th e most signifi cant point, w hich I belie ve has g ot to be the education issue. Now, if you look at the priorities contained in t his budget, Mr. Speaker, you’ll see that in fact there’s real disconnect between what we believe are the priorities of Albertans and what the priorities of the government are.

So, for exam ple, this budget contains $95 million for corporate tax cuts, and we already have some of the lowest corporate taxes in the country. You know that it reminds us of one of the old songs “how low can you go” and still be able to adequately fund those services that Albertans hold dear. You also have an increase in property taxes of $64 million.

Now, it is correct to say, as the Mini ster of Finance has said in ques tion period, that this is not a change in the mill rate for the provincial tax and is du e to an increase in the overall assessment and that it is an increase in property values plus any new property that is developed that produces this increase, but of course it is in direct contradiction to something contained in the budget a couple of years ago that said that not the mill rate but the total take from provincial property taxes would be frozen. This is a promise contained two budgets ago that has been broken.

Now the minister is saying: well, we’re freezing the mill rate. Well, that’s not what she said two years ago. So the result is that bec ause of rising property values, people’s property taxes are going up this year, and that increases the revenue of the government. It is in any reasonable person’s assessment an actual increase in taxes contrary to the Premier’s promise made repeatedly, including in this Assembly, that taxe s in Alberta w ere go ing nowhere but down. Well, they just went up, Mr.

Speaker. 3:30 Of course, a nother governm ent priority is the $37 m illion for horse racing, and the government likes to talk about, you know, the importance of this for agriculture and so on and so on and all of the poor people that are employed by this industry and so on, but, Mr. Speaker, you don’t see that kind of s ubsidy for other industr ies in this province, and you don’t see t his kind of program to provide income support for low-income Albertans in any other area.

McDonald’s Corporation pays lots of people lots of low wages, and it’s apparently in some financial trouble, yet you don’t see the government rushing to give direct financial support to the fast-food industry. I need to be careful. I don’t want to give them any ideas,

May 15, 2003 Alberta Hansard 1683 but I think I want to just make it perfectly clear that I oppose direct financial support for McDonald’s just as I oppose giving $37 million for the horse r acing industry . This is a dir ect contradiction of a fundamental promise that the government gave many years ago that they would not be financially supporting business, that they would get government o ut of the busin ess of being in business and they wouldn’t be picking winners and losers.

Well, they picked one here, and horse racing is the winner, but lots of other Albertans are t he losers because that money could have been spent on things that are actually important to people. The government has broken another promise, Mr. Speaker, in that they have cha nged their policy on transm ission lines . Now, the Minister of Energy has pointed out correctly that this was a decision made by the AEUB, that the cost of new transm ission in this province would be split 50-50 between consumers and the industry, and he’s overruled this de cision.

He ma de the announcem ent in Banff, not in the A ssembly, and the AEU B read about it in the papers, and that’s not a good way to do business even if there is a good reason for a policy change. The minister has I think confused the issue – let me put it that way – by suggesting that the cost would be only a billion dollars and that it would be sp read over 20 years, but the reports that we’ve produced and tabled in the Assembly show that the cost may be as high as $3.5 billion and may be paid for in as little as seven years.

The minister has also confused the issue by suggesting that the consumers will pay for the f ull costs in any event, and that’ s not correct either. It’s not correct. In a regulated industry, as transmis- sion still thankfully is, application needs to be made to the board for those costs that would be inc luded in the ra te base. The regulator then makes the decision about which costs are allowed and which are not. If the costs are allowed, they are added to the rate base that is paid for by consumers. If they are not allowed, then they cannot be added into the rate base.

The rates do not go up to cover those costs, and the company making the application must pay those costs out of their own pocket. So to suggest that his decision makes no difference in the end, that consumers will pay everything in the end, is categorically untrue. It is false, and it is som ething that I think the minister should be ashamed of him self f or sugge sting to this Assem bly and to the people of A lberta because he a s the Minist er of Ene rgy needs to know how regulation works.

I know he doesn’t like regulation, but I ce rtainly t hink that it’s i ncumbent t hat h e know h ow his own system operates. All of this has allowed rapidly rising utility rates in the prov ince, Mr. Speaker , so these are all pr iorities tha t the government seems to have. Now, let’s look at what we think the priorities of the public ought to be. Well, ce rtainly public education is an import ant one. I’m going to come back to tha t one, Mr. Spe aker, b ut I also think that lowering tuition in this province is an excellent idea, and that’s not included in the budget. It ought to be.

Only 65 percent of Albertans are satisfied that post secondary education is within the means o f most Alb ertans. A tuition fre eze at t his time, in our estim ation, would cost only about $40 million. One of the government members today in I thought quite a good set of questions to the Minister of Learning talked about the lack of participation of Albertans in postsecondary education. We have the lowest rate in the country, Mr. Speaker, an d th at is not, a s the minister would like to indicate, just because we have a hot economy.

It is due to sk y-high tuition fees in this province, and I think that that’s something that the government, again, needs to admit. Another thing that w e would propo se, Mr. Speaker, is the elimination of healt h care pre miums. We’v e costed t hat. That would be $913 million to do that. That’s certainly of more value to Albertans, I think, than some of the corporate tax cuts and subsidies for industry that have continued. Now, Mr.

Speaker, before I go any further – and maybe my clock could be stopped – I would like to introduce an amendment to this budget, and I’ll make that available now if someone would like to distribute it. [interjections] What? Dr. Taft: We are delighted. We’re laughing with delight. Mr. Mason: Are you? Mrs. Nelson: Are you serious? Mr. Mason: Yes. We would have been happy to do this yesterday. The Speaker: Hon. member, I have a copy of the amendment. Read it into the record and proceed. Mr. Mason: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Then I will move that Bill 40 , Ap propriation Ac t, 20 03 , be no t no w r ead a t hird t ime because the Legi slat ive Assembly beli eves that inadequate provision made for t he edu catio n of chil dren will result in a crisi s in school s. I see we have som e divine support there. Mr. Speaker, I am getting indications all over the House that I’m number one. May I proceed? The Speaker: The hon. member has never been interrupted. As far as I can unders tand, two minutes have been lost in the hon. mem- ber’s speaking time, so please proceed. Mr. Mason: Oh. I ’m sorry; I thoug ht that m y cloc k would be stopped.

The Speaker: Oh, no. The member has the floor. Mr. Mason: Well, than k you ver y mu ch, Mr. Speaker, for that information at this point. Mr. Speaker, what I want to indicate is that we do not believe that this budget sh ould be passed. We bel ieve that this budget fund a- mentally fails the children of Alberta. It fails schools, and we have seen the widespread evidence of a crisis. We have teachers being laid off by the hundreds and not just at a couple of school boards but in most sc hool boards. We have all kinds of indications that important programs are bei ng cut.

Even in G rant MacEwan the signing program for the de af is being cut, and it’s one of the very few in Canada. We see schools being closed. We see every, every indication that there ’s a fundamental crisis in education, and this budget doesn’t address it. The Minister of Learning has talked today. He admitted there was a 14 percent increas e in wag e costs, which make up the greate st portion of school board costs, and his department has only given a little bit more than 4 percent in the budget. So, obviously, there’s a huge gap between what the government has provided to the schools and what the schools require.

Then on top of that, they have to pay these soaring utility costs, which are entirely the responsibility of the government. They ’ve created a cr isis for almost every sector of Alberta’s community with their as inine deregulation of e lectricity that they refuse to admit is wrong and go back on. Then there’s the cap on grade 10 c redits. So, f undamentally, Mr. Speaker, this budget does not m ean that the interests of Albe rtans are being addressed in the key policy area, t he priority for the pe ople of Alberta. 3:40 We consider this amendment, Mr. Speaker, a motion of nonconfi-

1684 Alberta Hansard May 15, 2003 dence in this government, nonconfidence in their polici es with respect to education, their absolute failure to deal with the real issues facing people, and thei r reluctance to admit mistake s, which is a characteristic of this government.

We need to send a clear message to this government, and I hope members of the Assembly from all sides would vote with us so that we can have a new government in this province, one that actually puts forward the interests of students and recogniz es th e fundam ental im portance of education to the future economic development and prosperity of this province, something this government has absolutely failed to do. So, Mr. Speaker, on that point, I will be pleased to take my place and urge all members to vote with us against this budget and have a new government. Thank you. The Speaker: The hon.

Member for Edmonton-Gold Ba r on the amendment. Please remember, hon. members, that at this stage in the proceed- ings relevancy of contents is extremely important. Mr. MacDonald: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In regard to the amendment that is bei ng present ed to the A ssembly by the hon.

Member for Edmonton-Highlands, certainly whenever one looks at the state of public educa tion in this ci ty and a cross this province, when we consider that up to a thousand teachers may be laid off in this province in the next number of weeks as school boards prepare for their September budgets, I think all members of this Assembly should take another look at Bill 40 and see if something can be done for public education.

Certai nly, something has been done f or the horse racing industry in this province in the last three budget cycles, and not e nough, in my view, has been d one when o ne considers public education. To be brief, Mr.

Speaker, in conclusion, let us please remember that teachers have one of the mos t importa nt jobs in all of our province, and that’s transmitting the collective knowledge that has been gathered and assembled for generation after generation to our young citizens, who someday are going to be not only running this province but – it was put so well on a CBC radio interview yesterday afternoon by a former minister of education of this province when he stated that when he is 85, the students who are currently in the public education system will be looking after his interests, whether it’s his financial interests or whether it is his health care or develop- ing social poli cy.

T hey w ill be th e l eaders of tomorrow . It’s important that we heed the words of the former minister of educa- tion, and I believe the gentleman was also representing th e district of Edmonton-Highlands at one time. I hea rd that conversation on CBC radio, and I thought it was most appropriate. So I would urge all members of this Assembly in the interests of public education to support this amendment as presented by the hon. Member for Edmonton-Highlands. Thank you. The Speaker: On the amendment, the hon. Member for Edmonton- Strathcona. Dr. Pannu: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

I’d like to take this opportunity to strongly speak in support of the amendment to Bill 40 that’s just been introduced and spoken to by my hon. colleague from Edmonton-Highlands. There ha ve been many disappointments in this session with respect to the government’s legislative agenda on deregulation of electricit y and natura l ga s and in designing and pushing through the Legislature special bills to ease Direct Energy and other companies into the market while it’s be

Document details

Collection	Alberta — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	20030515
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	L25 S3 20030515 1330 01 han.pdf
Language	en
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Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	432ba5ff0d6a3e1ba1a7d259971bb04bcf5031d6

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