Manitoba Hansard — 6 December 1994 (Sitting 4, 35th Legislature, 6th Session)

35-6-4

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

- Sixth Session -1birty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Bonourabk Denis C. Roet111 Speaker VoL XLIV No.4· 1:30 p.m., Tuesday, December 6, 1994 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature M~mbeo. ~onstim~ng~~ ~nd P2litical Affiliation IiiiiUl Copstituewu:.r flm ASHTON, Steve Thompson NDP B.ARRE'IT, Becky Wellington NDP CERn..LI, Marianne Radisson NDP CHOMIAK, Dave Klldonan NDP CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Stc.Rose P.C. DACQUAY, Louise Seine River P.C. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. Roblin- Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregmy Selkirk NDP DOER, Gary Concordia NDP DOWNEY,James, Hon. Arthur-Virden P.C. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. Steinbach P.C. DUCHARME, Gerald, Hon. Riel P.C. BDW ARDS, Paul StJames lib. ENNS, Hany, Hon. Lakeside P.C. ERNST, Jim, Hon.

Charleswood P.C. - EVANS, C1if Interlake NDP EVANS, Leonard S. Brandon East NDP FILMON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo P.C. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. Springfield P.C. FRIESEN,Jean Wolseley NDP GAUDRY, Neil SL Boniface lib. Gll..LESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. Minnedosa P.C. GRAY, Avis Oescentwood lib. HEL WER, Edward Gimli P.C. HICKES, George Point Douglas NDP KOWALSKI, Gary The Maples lib. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster lib. LATHLlN, Oscar The Pas NDP LAURENDEAU, Marcel St. Norbert P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord St. Johns NDP MALOWAY,Iim Blmwood NDP MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. Manis P.C.

MARTINDALE, Doug BWTOWS NDP McALPINE, Gerry Sturgeon Creek P.C. -McCORMICK, Norma Osborne lib. Mc<:FLAJB,James,Hon. Brandon West P.C. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. Assiniboia P.C. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. River East P.C. ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. Pembina P.C. PALLISTBR, Brian Pcrtage la Prairie P.C. PENNER., Jack Pmerson P.C. PLOHMAN,Iohn Dauphin NDP PRAZNIK, Damm, Hon. Lac du Bonnet P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona NDP REIMER, Jack Niakwa P.C. RENDER, Shirley SL Vital P.C. ROBINSON, Eric Rupertsland NDP ROCAN, Denis, Hon. Gladstone P.C. ROSE, Bob Turtle Mountain P.C.

SANTOS, Conrad Broadway NDP SCHELLENBERG, Hany Rossmere NDP STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. Kirkfield Park P.C. SVEINSON, Ben La Verendrye P.C. VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. Fort Garry P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann Swan River NDP Vacant River Heights Vacant FlinFlon

- - 127 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, December 6, 1994 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Housing Authorities Voluntary Boards Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Phyllis Echo-Gibb, Kim Cockle, Rebecca Clarlce and others requesting the Minister responsible for Housing (Mrs. Mcintosh) to consider cancelling the tccent unilateral rent hikes and restoring the voluntaiy boards for the Housing Authorities. Physical Education in Schools Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr.

Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Alfred Wiebe, Inderjit Oaire, Veronica Dyck and others mging the Minister responsible for Education (Mr. Manness) to consider reinstating physical educa tion as a compulsory cOIC subject area. READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Physical Education in Schools Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable JreJDber (Mr. l...arnouieux). It complies with the privileges and the practices of this House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Yes. Mr. Speaker: The Clerk will read. Mr.

Oerk (William Remnant): The petition of the undersigned residents of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: 1HAT in July 1994, the Minister of Education introduced an action plan entitled Renewing Education: New Directions; 1HAT this report will make physical education an optional course in Grades 9 to 12; 1HAT the physical education curriculum should be tcgularly tcviewed to ensure that it meets the needs of students; 1HAT the g()\ICIDIIX'Jlt is &iling to recognize the benefits of physical education such as improved physical fitness, more active lifestyles, health promotion, self-discipline, skill development, stress reduction, sttcngthened peer relationships, 'Weight regulation, stronger bones, reduced risk of health diseases and improved self-confidence.

WHEREFORE your petitioners hmnbly pray that the Legislative Assembly urge the Minister responsible for Education to consider reinstating physical education as a compulsory core subject atca. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions may I direct the attention ofhonomable members to the gallery, where we have with us this afternoon from the Faith Academy twenty Grade 9 students under the directim of Miss Lynclle Reimer. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak).

On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Crime Rate Increase Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, since the last time we were in session and raising questions in the Legislature, we had s~ very troubles~ statistics that were released from Stats Canada, troublesorre statistics that I am

128 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 6, 1994 sure concern all members of the Legislature. The Canadian crime rate in 1993 decreased and the crime rate, unfortunately in Manitoba . . ' increased. In fact, Manitoba and New Brunswick were the only two provinces that bad an increase in crime in the last reported full year of statistics in Canada. I would like to ask the Premier (Mr. Filmon), what reasons were there for Manitoba having an increased crime rate, contrary to the trend that is going on in the rest of the country. Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister or Justice and Attorney General): Mr.

Speaker, this govemment and this province are very concemed about the issues of crime across our province, and W'C have taken a number of very strong stands to deal with the issues of crime. Those stands have also required the co-operation of Manitobans to take part. As well, this is not an issue that can be dealt with by governments alone. However, where this govemmcot bas been able to take steps in areas such as Corrections and areas such as auto theft and auto vandalism, W'C have taken them •

(1335) Victim Assistance Program Status Report Mr. Gary Doer (Leader or the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, it is rather disappointing that we did not have any reasons from the government about why it happened, so that we can take steps to prevent it in the future. Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Premier (Mr. Fllmon) another question. On April22 last year, I asked the Premier about the Victim Assistance Program that was being reduced in the provincial budget by the Conservative government.

I further asked a question on J1DlC 1 to the Premier about the reduction of the Victim Assistance Program in rural and northem Manitoba. I have since written the Premier on this issue pursuant to an open letter that was provided to the Minister of Justice and to all members of the Cluu:nber from the Kelly family which was also reproduced in The Pas paper, the recommendation fr<m that family and the analysis of that family that this was a very, very positive program in a great crisis period for them and their family, and they wanted the government to reconsider its decision to reduce and cut this program back.

I would ask the Premier (Mr. Filmon), will he now overrule his Minister of Justice and reinstate the Victim Assistance Program in Manitoba communities? Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister or Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, the assistance to victims across this province bas again been very important to this government. In fact. our financial contribution bas been in excess of $3.7 million, including the Criminal Injuries Board. The Leader of the Opposition pethaps missed in our staterrents last year that we have extended the Women's Advocacy Program to The Pas. That was announced in the budget last year.

Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, the minister and the Premier (Mr. FiJmon) did not answer the question. The Kelly family and other members of the comrmmities across Manitoba are asking the government to maintain the victims assistance couosellors aaoss Manitoba. The government bas not given any-1n fact, I have not had any response to my letter to the Premier. I am not sure whether tbe family has had any response from the minister, and Manitobans want a direct answer.

Will they be maintaining counsellors in The Pas that are sdleduled to be Rduced in this budget year through budget decisions of the government in The Pas, in Flin Flon, in Selkirk, in Portage, in ~son? Will they be maintaining those very, very~ programs? Unfortunately, we have an increase in crime in Manitoba, and surely this is not the time to reduce services to victims in our province. Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Speaker, let me provide the answer again for the honourable member's · infom:latioo. First of all, in the budget last year we enhanced and extended the Women's Advocacy - -

- - December 6, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 129 Program to three additiooal centres. Those centres were Brandon, 1he Pas and Thompson, and Women's Advocacy is operating in those centres now. In addition, in terms of our suppon to victims, the total amount of mooey is $3.7 million. We provide $518,000 to programs operated by the Deplll'bllCDt of Justice and an additional $517,000 for programs operated by third-patty groups m. behalf of victims in this province. So we do continue a very strong suppon to victims. Victims Assistance Fund External Organizations Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Mr.

Speaker, we on this side of the House have been asking since November 1988 about the delays in Victims Assistance Fund grants to commmity organizations working with victims of violent crimes. Even now in 1994 there are groups that have had applications for funding in with this government since 1989 which have not yet heattl about the disposition of those requests. From this gOYeJ'"'"•' in five years we have had nothing but excuses, procrastinations and evasions.

Will the Minister of Justice today finally confum that ooly about one-third of the Victims Assistance funds that are generated through the Victitm Assistance Fund goes to nongovernmental groups, with the result that ftmding is not available to the extent that it has been in the past? It has been decreased by almost 50 percent to these external organizations. Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr.

Speaker, let me say again the amJUDt of money which this government provides to suppon victims is in excess of $3.7 million, and pan of that money is provided to the Criminal Injuries Compensation Board which deals with victitm, both for mxlical needs and also now for therapy to victims of sexual abuse and other psychological therapy. There is also money allocated to third-patty agmcies which provide programming on behalf of victims in Manitoba. In addition, through the Depattment of Justice, we also provide service to victims.

We maintain a very strong committnent 1here was also a sectim. of the throne speech which dealt with our government's ongoing commitment to look at the needs of victims across this province. We are in fact doing that. Ms. Barrett: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the minister a specific question dealing with the external govemnr:ntal agencies requesting funding from the Victims Assistance Fund.

Will she now table in the House a list of the organizations extemal to government that have made application to the Victims Assistance Fund, and, as well, list the disposition, current or future or former, of those requests? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Speaker, when I answered this questim. last spring, I believe I let the member know at that time that notification was going 'to applications which were not able to be accepted.

However, there were some applications which were being accepted. 1here were some conditions to be na m. behalf of those applications and some requiimrnts to be nato ensure that the programs which those organizations wish to offer were in fact in the whole best interest of Manitobans. When those conditions have been met, then the mmey would flow. So we have been working in good faith with organizatiaos; however, conditions have to be met to ensure that the money is spent in the most appropriate way. •

(1340) Ms. Barrett: Mr. Speaker, I find it hard to believe that six months is a legitimate delay. Mr. Speaker, will the Premier, as a member of Treasmy Board, tell the House why the Treasury Boanl is sitting m. a number of these applications,

130 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 6, 1994 whidl staffhave told agencies is the case, and give a firm commitment today that these groups-some of whom have been waiting for five years and six IOODths at least since they put in what they thought was the necessary documentation for their reports-will he make a commitment today that Treaswy Board will let these groups know what the status is on their ICqUCSts for funding for victims in this province? Ron. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I am not a ~mber of Treasury Board. The member, as usual, operates from incorrect information.

I am sure, however, that Treasury Board will take notice of her questions and deal with it in an appropriate fashion. Firearms Control Government Position Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader of the Second Oppositioo): Mr. Speaker, as all members know, and as the white ribbons we see members wearing today pay hooour and tribute to the memory of the MootrealiiilSsaae five~ ago, when 14 women "WeJ"e killed at the school in Montteal, today I think is an appropriate day to reflect on what has come of those five years.

There was a broad movement in this country to bring forward tougher gun control legislation, in part as a result of that. That has resulted in the last week in the release of a proposal from the federal government to get tougher on gun control, and a JJUJDber of initiatives have been put forward.

My question for the Minister of Justice is, given that these proposals have gained the support of the Canadian Association of Orlefs of Police, of the Canadian Association of Police Boards, of the Canadian Advisory Council on the Status of Wonrn and of the Canadian Teachers Federation, among others, what is the government's position on the federal proposals? Ron. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, our gov ernment's position is that proposal is weak on crime. That says it very clearly.

It is absolutely weak on the area that deals with criminal behaviour in Canada-as usual, weak on the criminal side. Our position as put forward on behalf of the people of Manitoba asks the federal minister to expand

Section 85 to include weapons, because we understand that 6 percent of criminal activity, violent criminal activity, was committed by firearms, and a further 33 percent of that criminal activity was committed by weapons other than firearms. Manitoba's women are waiting for the federal govemment-(interjcction] Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable minister is attempting to respond to the question as put by the Leader of the second opposition party. I would hope we would give the honourable minister an opportunity to respond. Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Speaker, Manitoba's women are waiting for this provincial Liberal Party to stand up to the federal liberal Party and include those weapons which also have been used to hurt and abuse women in this province. Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, obviously we have hit a bit of a sore spot here. Mr. Speaker, the minister said in a television interview some weeks ago a similar line that the definition should be expanded to weapons, and the cmtext of the cmversation was about the proposal to register all firearms. She went on to talk about weapons, including things like ashtrays and telephones.

Her position is-she says Manitoba's position is change the word to "weapons." Obviously, she is not suggesting, I assume, that society has to register all potential weapons which would of course include telephones and ashtrays. Mr. Speaker, my question is, does the Premier (Mr. Filmon) support the registration of firearms in this country or not? •

(1345) Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Speaker, the women of -

December 6, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 131 Manitoba are very disappointed in the Leader of the Liberal Party's attempt to misunderstand all of the wor:nen of Manitoba who have been abused by weapons such as ashtrays that the member seems to think are so very funny and weapons such as telephones and weapons such as knives. When women's lives are being threatened, they are threatened whether it is a firearm, a knife, a telephone or an ashtray.

I ask that member, when is the Liberal Party of this province going to stand up for the women of Manitoba and going to stand up for the safety of women in this province? Mr. Edwards: . . . for the women in this province, can she produce one women's organizatioo that does not support the registration of all firearms? 1be Manitoba Action Committee on the Status ofWom:n's position, I might remind the minister is, woor.n are far more likely to be the victims of guns than to use them. A woman is shot to death every five days in Canada.

Guns are the weapon of choice in domestic violence, and most women DJ.Jider victilm are killed by UIJieStricted weapons such as rifles and shotguns. Mr. Speaker, they support wholeheartedly the registration of every fireann in this country. Does she? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Speaker, let me give the member some statistics also which I think he should pay attention to on behalf of the women of Manitoba. During a two-year period there was a tracking done from the Manitoba Spousal Abuse Tracking project.

They noted that at that time firearms accounted for 11 percent; knives accounted for 33 percent; bottles and glass, 13 percent; ashtrays, tools, keys and other items, 24 percent. We asked the federal government to expand

Section 85 to include weapons. That is the positicn of this govem.ment. We are tough on the criminal activity. [interjection] Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member has had an opportunity to put his question. F1in Flon/Creighton Crisis Centre Funding Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, since today is December 6, I think it is appropriate that all of us should rededicate our lives to living lives that are nonviolent and to educating our children to live lives that are nonviolent, and also a large segment of our society that needs some educating, namely men.

We, as a society have decided that when women are the victims of domestic violence and abuse it is appropriate that we should fund shelters in ~ir own coJTUlllmities as a safe haven where they can go to leave violent situations. Regrettably, a year ago this government eliminated the funding to the Flin Flon Crisis Cc:otm. I would like to ask the Minister of Family Services if her government is going to restore the fimding so they can provide a full-time appropriate service in their community for women in need. Bon.

Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): I echo the first comments made by my honourable friend at the beginning of his question indicating that we do need to dedicate and commit ourselves to worldng very bard to eliminate violent crime and teach very much our children and our grandchildren to ensure that they do have the opportunity to understand that crime is not an option. Mr. Speaker, I do want to indicate that we as a govemnmt have made a major commitment to the shelter system in the province of Manitoba since we took over as government.

The increase for shelter support right throughout the province has been 148 pc:rcmt increase in the years that we have been government over what the fOimer administration had in place. We have made recent announcements just in the last couple of weeks that does commit and dedicate

132 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 6, 1994 this govermnent to providing support for second stage housing throughout the province of Manitoba so that, after the crisis is over and women want to get on with leading normal lives free of the fear of violence, they will have the opportunity to have some supports in place to ensure that their lives can get back to normal. Mr. Martindale: The minister did not answer the question, so I will repeat it. Is this minister and her govemrrrm willing to commit resources so .the comrmmity of Flin Flon can have an appropnate service in their own community?

That is, the only service that is appropriate is a service that is provided in the comumnity of Flin Flon. •

(1350) Mrs. Mitchelson: I know that the Department of Family Services, through Family Dispute, has been working very closely with the community of The Pas and the comnnmity of Flin Flon to ensure that women in Flin Flon have the opportunity to be sarely aa:om:nodated should they have the need for shelter assistance. Mr. Martindale: Mr. Speaker, it is very inappropriate to tell women who are living in~ Flon that they have to go 1he Pas to get a serv1ce that was provided in Flin Flon. It should be provided in Flin Flon, and this govemment should restore the funding so tbat can happen again.

Will the minister commit herself to doing that? Mrs. Mitchelson: I will commit to ensuring that this govermnent lives up to its commitment to increased funding and fair support for women throughout the province of Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, we have been WOikiog very closely with the comrmmities of The Pas and Flin Flon to ensure that supports are available. It is Ill' understanding that over the last number of y~, there has not been a woman from the commmity of Flin Flon who has needed support for family violence or for abuse who has not received that support. Public Health Research Funding Mr.

Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Mr. Speaker, testimmy by the minister's own officials at the Krevcr inquiry indicated, quote: that the Ministry of Health lacks the ability to deal with epidemics, end of quote, as a result of cutbacks. Today we hear as a result of changes in strains to bacteria virulence, we could be facing major diffirulties in health dealing with tuberculosis and other infectious diseases. In Manitoba, Mr. Speaker, asthma is almost epidemic amongst our children. What plans does this govermnent have to deal with a major public health epidemic and the research necessary to deal with that? Ron.

James McCrae (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, through the branch in the Department of Health that deals with public health issues, that branch headed by Dr. Guilfoyle, the Medical Officer of Health, we are ready to respond in a case of the outbreak of comrmmicable disease. I think no better example could be given than the vaccine program we had for meningococcal meningitis earlier this past winter, and I think we respooded well to that threat that was there and we were able to deal with that.

I dare say there will be C(lDllllCnts made from time to ~ about any province's ability, depending on the magnitude of the threat, Mr. Speaker. I just remind the honourable .~r that no province is immme from dealmg wtth these circumstances that do arise. But the Province of Manitoba holds our health care very dearly, and I think the spmding of this government on health care generally in our province demonstrates that.

No province in this country spends 34 percmt of its total government spending on health, except for the Province of Manitoba, and we are trying to ensure that all of our branches are strong and able to respond to the need as it arises. - -

- December 6, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 133 Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, in light of the minister's comments, how does he explain his annual report of the Manitoba Health Research Council released yesteiday in this Ownber that indicates they received a 10 percent reduction in their funding to deal with ~arch in areas like this. How does the minister explain that reduction of 10 penmt last }'eal' and zero percent this year, Mr. Speaker? Mr. McCrae: Mr.

Speaker, we have been trying for the past several years in Manitoba to direct funding in those areas in the community where we can provide meaningful support for commmities, so that we do not put undue pressure on the acute care sector of health care delivery in om province. We have evidence recently from the Manitoba Centre for Health Policy and Evaluation, an organization the honourable member has said is above reproach, Mr.

Speaker, that says that we are successfully, according to the figures before them, achieving what we are supposed to be achieving, that is, delivering the optimal efficiency with the health care dollar being spent. Combine that, Mr. Speaker, with the number of health care dollars being spent and the questions the honourable member raised, while helpful, give us an opportunity to give some assurances that in Manitoba we place the health care of our population at the very highest priority. •

(1355) Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, this minister signed a cheque to give more mmey to one American consultant than he did to the entire Manitoba Health Research Council. 1\.fy final supplementary to the minister is, how can this public have any confidence in the research capability of this province when it reduces funding for the research council when it is sitting on over $100 million in a lottery slush fund? Money like that was supposed to go to health research. Mr. McCrae: Mr.

Speaker, I remind the hmourable member that lottery dollars were used to finance the operatioo of the Manitoba Centre for Health Policy and Evaluation, which has been helpful in helping us fommlate health policy, helping us to evaluate health policy as it is implemented.

We are taking a very cautious and, I suggest, careful approach to the renewal of our health care system so that we do not engage in knee-jerk types of initiatives as you might see in provinces to the east and provinces to the west of us where, under the leadership of friends of hooourable members opposite in the New Democratic Party and indeed the Liberal Party, we are seeing large and very deep cuts made in the health care systems there without the kind of planning and data-based research that is being used as we renew our health care system here in Manitoba. Mr.

Speaker, we are quite happy to compare what we are doing in Manitoba with any other jurisdiction in Canada, but we will always bear in mind that no matter how well we do in Manitoba, we can always do better. That is why we appreciate constructive suggestions coming from honourable members opposite. Wildlife Act Aboriginal Hunting Rights Mr. Eric Robinson (Rupertsland): Mr. Speaker, my questions are for the Minister of Natural Resources.

On June 28 at committee stage of Bill 10 oo page 67 ofHansani, the minister will recall that he stated: In checking with our legal counsel, we are advised that the constitutional rights of natives for hunting and fishing is not affected. It is the overriding thing which is the federal constitution where that is covered. Did the minister issue a directive stating that when he informed conservation officers that Bill 10 would be proclaimed on the 17th of October? Hon.

Albert Driedger (Minister of Natural Resources): At the time when we had the debate on the amendments to 1he Wildlife Act it never dealt with the rights of any individual; it dealt with

134 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 6, 1994 the safety of Manitobans. I want to repeat that again. that discharging a firearm at night is something that has been a major concern brought forwanl many times. The Wildlife Act has been proclaimed. We have implemented it, and it has been very effective in terms of decreasing nighttime hunting. Mr. Robinson: Mr. Speaker, the minister will also recall that the Grand Rapids arrests that were well documented in media took place before Bill 10 was proclaium, and there has been a great deal of coofusion on the details and implications of Bill 10.

Will the minister take it upon himself to ensure that his officers are infOIIDed what the legal rights and obligations are? Mr. Driedger: One of the reasons why we did not proclaim the anx:ndmc:nt!J to The Wildlife Act immediately was so that we had time to take and nwiew the ilq>act ofhow it would be administered by our staft: I fi:e1 confident, unless somebody can bring information to the contrary, that our staff have been informed, and know what they are doing in terms of filling out their responsibilities? •

(1400) Mr. Robinson: My fmal question. I believe that certainly no one over here, certainly ourselves, is advocating unsafe hunting practices. I am quite sure that many members here as well are aware that we have been involved in co-management agreements in the past so we are very DDJch aware as to how they can work effectively. Will this minister contact the Assembly of Manitoba Oliefs, the tribal councils and individual First Nations in Manitoba on the actual effect of The Wildlifu Amendment Act and erase confusion that seems to exist in Manitoba regarding BilllO? Mr. Driedger: Mr.

Speaker, I will have to confirm this, but I was assured that, prior to the proclamation of that, contact was made with all stakeholders, so to speak, as to the impact of what would happen when we proclaimed the amendments to The Wildlife Act. I will undertake to make very sure that we made those contacts to clarify exactly what the intent of the act was. H that has not happened I am prepared to communicate with people who have either misunderstood or did not know exactly what was happening. Firearms Control Government Position Mr. Gary Kowalski (The Maples): Mr.

Speaker, every five days on average in this country a woman is shot to death. Forty-two pereent of the women who are murdered are murdered with firearms. I have seen the injuries. I have been to the autopsies as my colleagues-as the Canadian chiefs of police, many of their colleagues, have seen, and that is why they are supporting this legislation. Will this Justice minister show a leadership role and make gun registration worlc in this province by supporting the federal government's gun registration program? Bon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr.

Speaker, this goven:nu:ot has IDlde its position very clear. This goverrmrm is extmnely concemed about criminal activity. The member speaks about a criminal act in which a woman was assaulted or n:nudcred, and this government comes down very hanl on that position. We have been very clear to the federal minister, to expand the seotcna:s, to add on to the sentences where a firearm is used, to make sure that in the cases of a violent crime where a firearm is used, there should be additional, significant penalties imposed upon the offender. That is the position of this government, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Kowalski: Mr.

Speaker, I am glad to see the minister supports that portion of the legislation, but the question is gun registration, gun registration that will stop the illegal importation of -

December 6, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 135 firearn:m, that will allow the police to do their job, to tell which are illegal guns. Will she get on a plane to Ottawa and support the Justice minister in the call for tougher gm control here in this country? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Speaker, again, I have stated the position of this government very clearly. Our govemmcnt is very concemed about criminal activity committed with a fuearm or a weapon.

We have said to the federal minister very clearly that we are expecting that he will implement significant additional penalties where there has been a weapon, is what we are asking the fedcml minister for. Mr. Speaker, I have written personally to the fedeml Minister of Justice to make sure that that minister is fully aware of the position of this govei'IlDlCnt, but this party does not stand up for Manitobans in other areas.

We were the mly province in Canada who presented to the parliamentary committee on young offenders. 1here was not one member of the Libeml Party who has stood up with Manitobans who have made themselves very clear in the area of young offenders. Mr. Speaker, we are also asking the fedeml govemment to increase in the area of stalking, to toughen up the stalking penalties to assist the victim. This Libeml Party has not assisted. Mr. Kowalski: Suicides account for 77 percent of the 1,445 firearm deaths in 1991. Studies have shown that a home with a gun is five times more likely to be the scene of a suicide.

We understand that gun control in itself will not be the mly solution, but it will be a solution. Will she not support and prevent domestic firean:n deaths and suicides by supporting this gm control legislation? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Speaker, again, the fedeml goverrrnrnt bas made their decision. [interjection] Mr. Speaker: Order, please. 1he honourable Attomey Geneml is attempting to respond to the question. Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Speaker, what I would ask this provincial Libeml Party and all members of this House is to also support and to not be selective, because we have not heard one wOld from the Libeml Party in terms of their support of additional significant sentences and the inclusion of weapons. Mr. Speaker, that is the area of criminal activity. They have not agreed to support Manitoba's position to expand the tenn "firearm" to include weapons. That party has not stood with Manitobans on behalf of the public safety of Manitoba. Manitoba Hydro Corporate Housing-Taxation Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Energy and Mines): Mr.

Speaker, yesterday my colleague took a question as notice from the member for Rupertsland (Mr. Robinson) regarding a recent reversal of Revenue Canada on the taxable benefit of housing provided to employees of Manitoba Hydro at Gillam and Sundance. I would like to inform. my honourable friend that Manitoba Hydro has engaged extemal legal counsel because they, as we are, are very concemed about the change in ruling and inteJpretatim which was not stimulated by change in legislation. Mr.

Speaker, Manitoba Hydro has engaged outside CCJmJsel in order that we can determine the type of legal case we can present on behalf of those employees and the retroactive request of taxation for years '91, '92 and '93. McKenzie Seeds Privatization Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister responsible for McKenzie Seeds.

136 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 6, 1994 Even though the minister has no legislation to authorize the sale of McKenzie Seeds, he is detennined to sell McKenzie Seeds to Regal Greetings & Gifts of Toronto, which has since been acquired by MDC Cmporation of Toronto. Can the minister cmfiim that MDC Corporation is having a problem with its bankers over the agreem:nt to buy McKenzie Seeds? Has MDC or Regal approached the government to change the terms of the agreement? Bon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister responsible for A.E. McKenzie Co. Ltd.): Mr.

Speaker, we indicated in the spring that we had put six preconditions on the sale of McKenzie Seeds. We had a number of unsolicited bids come forward from c:otqJanies in Canada and elsewhere. We have bem worlr.:ing with Regal from Toronto based on those preconditions. We are taking the time we need to do the due diligence on MDC, who are the new owners of Regal, to be sure that those six preconditions are met. I note that the m:ad>er has never quarrelled with the preconditions, and it is taking a little bit longer.

I would remind the member that when he was responsible for McKenzie Seeds he indicated that the government in which he was a minister was prepared to sell McKmzie Seeds, and the only reason they did not sell it was they only had a two year guarantee. Reports in the newspaper from those days indicate a quote from the member for Brandon East: 1be seed business is the last industiy that we want to be in. I am sort of smprised that he has maybe changed his direction on this. Mr. Leonard Evans: Instead of answering the question, the minister takes words of mine out of context which are 25 years old. Mr.

Speaker, in the public interest, will this minister tell the House now, does the MDC Corporation of Toronto want to change the conditions of the agreement that was set out originally? Mr. Gilleshammer: I can tell the member that we are continuing to look after the interests of Manitoba and McKenzie Seeds, and the preconditions that have been put fmward by this government will have to be met before a sale is concluded. I can say that s~ of the reason there is concern and speculation is the misinformation that the member for Brandon East has put on the record.

For instance, in the spring he indicated that 80 percent of the IDill'ket was in central Canada. That cc:rtainly has bem refuted by McKenzie Seeds, and the member for Brandon East, I believe, had to apologize for that. He has indicated in the press that Brandon is not the most viable location for McKenzie Seeds. This has been refuted by the Chamber of Commen:e, the board of McKenzie Seeds, the mayor and council of Brandon, and part of the reason that there is some concem is the misiofonnation that the member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans) has put on the record. •

(1410) Education System Physical Education Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Education. Now, we understand the Minister of Education wants to sit down and talk to the teachers. We appreciate the fact that the blueprint has already been tabled and he has told Manitobans, educators, all stakeholders that this is in fact the direction we want to take the province of Manitoba on education. 1bere are some fundamental problems. I want to deal with a specific problem, with the petitions that I have been tabling, and that is the issue of physical educatim.

The Minister of Education has decided that physical education is not going to be compulsory for S3 and S4. I am going to ask the Minister of Education: -

- - December 6, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 137 Will he reconsider that decision and implement this as part of the core curriculum? Hon. Oayton Maoness (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for the question. Let me state for the recold once again that this government firmly supports physical educatim as a course of study. However, we also firmly support the rights of parents and coommiric:s to reflect upm the programming base within their schools ..

So we say that parents, and indeed the commmity, must be involved in the decision making around the programming within their school, and we made that point very clearly. Phys ed will cootioue to be a compulsory course from Grades 1 to 8 and to the end of Grade 12 in those conmumities where the parent council decides that should be the case. 1he issue is here. We trust in the parents. We trust in the people. 1he Liberal Party do not. They do not have trust in those groups of people to make phys ed compulsory from Senior 1 through Senior 4. We trust the people, Mr. Speaker. The members opposite do not. Mr.

Lamoureux: Mr. Speaker, one has to question the minister. We have professionals in health care. We have profession educators. We have parents. We have all the stakeholders that are contradicting what the Minister of Education has just put on the table. My question to the Minister of Education is, is the Minister of Education going to be sitting down with the teachers now and responding to their cmccms with the blueprint or does he just want to sit down- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. 1he honomable member has put his question. Older, please. We are out of time. Mr. Maoness: Mr.

Speaker, there are 12,000 teacbcrs in the province of Manitoba. I cannot sit down with 12,000, but I did sit down with their representatives very extensively through the process of developing the blueprint. As a matter of fact, I met with them on several tens of occasions, and they gave input. Mr. Speaker, I am not holding them. I am not holding the Teachers' Society to the recommendations that came forwald in the blueprint, but there was wide and broad consultation.

We will broaden it beyood that as we call forwald those of the 12,000 who wish to be in attc:ndanre to give some advice as to how we implement the basic core of the document in question. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, can I request reverting to Tabling of Reports? Mr. Speaker: Is there leave to revert to Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports? [agreed] Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the Quartedy Report for the six months April to September 1994.

NONPO~CALSTATEMENTS Ecole polytechnique Murder Anniversary Mr. Speaker: Does the honomable Minister of Justice have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, today Jlllldcs the fifth amiversary of the tragic murders of 14 women students at the Ecole polytechnique in Montreal. We all recall the horror we felt as we listened to this shocking news. Acts of senseless violence cause us to mown lives so wasted. How much greater is the loss for the families and the friends of the young women who lost their lives five years ago.

We, once again, extend our condolences and our sympathies to those families and friends.

138 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 6, 1994 We all have a role to play in changing attitudes and in improving the ways in which we comnmicate and in teaching our children to solve problem; without resorting to violence. I urge all Manitobans to continue working to make the changes that will make our province a safe place for women and children and all Manitobans. I.>eceimer 6 has been declared a national day of remembrance, an action respecting violence against women.

Let us now at some point today take a 1ll0111C".!lt to remember the Montreal students who were victim; of violence, as well as Manitoba wonrn who have met their deaths through violent acts. At seven o'clock this evening, Mr. Speaker, a memorial vigil will be held on the legislative grounds in remembrance of women who have been victims of violence I encourage members of the Legislative Assembly to attend, and I say let us continue to work together towards our common goal of a safe and healthy future for Manitobans. Thank you. Mr.

Speaker: Does the honourable member for Wellington have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Mr. Speaker, I, too, would like to rise today and acknowledge that today is the fifth anniversary of the deaths of 14 young women in Montreal at the hands of a man who knew nothing of their hopes, dreams or aspirations, a man who saw these women only as the cause of his own frustrations. In Manitoba since 1990, there have been over 50 women murdered by men, seven in the last six months alone murdered by husbands, lovers, boyfriends and sometimes even strangers.

Whatever the ostensible reasons for the deaths of the hundreds of women who have been mm:lered in Canada by men, the tie that binds these deaths together is that they were women murdered by men. Let us all remember the women who have died as the result of male violence, whether they be in Montreal, Winnipeg, Thompson, Steinbach, Dauphin or Flin Flon. Let us pray for the day to come as Karen Toole-Mitchell said in the Free Pn:ss this weekend, that lions and lambs can meet wbcn the lion realizes there is no need to sacrifice the lamb and the lamb realizes it has a right to life. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker: Does the honourable member for Osbome have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Ms. Norma McCormick (Osborne): Mr. Speaker, five years ago today a gunman entered Montreal's Ecole polytechnique and murdered 14 young women who were students in the engineering program. This tragic event stands today as a grim reminder to Canadian women and girls that the transition to a society which provides equality of opportunity for young women and girls has not yet been achieved.

We mark this day with white ribbons and we meum the terrible loss and the loss of the lives of dozens of Manitoba women and girls in the last five years. But it is not enough just to mourn. Today is the day we assess our progress toward ensuring that Canada is a safer place for women and children, irrespective of their dreams and aspirations and of their career choices. Today is also the day we renew a commitment to end the misogyny which gives rise to these murders.

I call on each member of this Olamber to den:oJstrate by our actions and by our treatment of one another that women have earned the full right to participation in all aspects of Canadian society. Let us respect each other for the contribution that ead1 of us has to make and the ways in which we choose to make it Thank you. Provincial Volleyball Championships Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable Minister of Rural Development have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural

- - December 6, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 139 Development): Mr. Speaker, today I am honoured to rise in the House to recognize a group of young Manitoba athletes who are to be highly commended for their superior volleyball talent which was displayed at the Provincial AA Volleyball Ownpionships held in Russell last weekend. These two highly energetic teams are widely known as, the girls, Goose Lake High Angels and, the boys, Goose Lake High Raiders from Roblin. They are the first rural teams from the same school and in the same year to win a Provincial AA Volleyball Ownpionship title. Mr.

Speaker, the coaches of the girls' team were Hugh Newtm and Jim McMillan. Their members were: Carlana Jo Newton, Vanessa Cross, Kim Nemberg, Jay Carriere, Karl Kozmeniuk. Trisha Simpson, Jaimie Boguski, Rhea Hojnocki and Darilyn Reich. The coach of the boys' team was Tom Gulak. The players were: Jared Cockerill, Whitney Nemberg, Tim Mohr, Scott Hudema, Jasm Olerowka, Kris Paul, Ryan Olase, Bany Laliberte, Gaiy Wallace, Darren Wandy, Jeremy Lungal and Trevor Digby. Mr. Speaker, I ask all members of the House to join me today in congratulating these fine Manitoba athletes. •

(1420) Mr. Speaker: The honourable Minister of Rural Developtilf2lt, I would ask you, sir, to kindly table the docunr.ol. We want Hansard to get the correct spelling. Does the honourable member for Swan River have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): On bdlalf of my colleagues on this side of the House, I would like to join with the members across in congratulating the teams from the Roblin school who did so well this weekend in their activities. It just indicates how important it is that young people have the opportunity to participate.

I am very pleased that there are rural people who have this opportunity to meet the same standards and compete at the same level as urban students. I join with the member in congratulating these students on their efforts. University Women's Basketball Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable govemment House leader have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Bon. Jim Ernst (Minister responsible for Sport): Mr.

Speaker, on the 25th of November, the University of Winnipeg Wesmen women's basketball team achieved a milestone in sports history reached only once before by the UCLA men's basketball teams of the early 1970s: an incredible 88 consecutive wins. In so doing, they became the co-holders of the North American record and eamcd a place in the Basketball Hall of Fame.

What makes this achievement more special is that 13 of the 14 players were born and raised in Manitoba, proving once again that our home grown athletes are among the very best in the world On Friday, December 2, the Wesmen women attempted to break the record of 88 consecutive wins to become the sole holders of the North American record. Their competition was a remarkable women's team from the University of Manitoba Bisons, and on Friday it was their detc:rrnjoatim and hard work that won the day and they emerged victorious.

Both these teams are to be congratulated for their achievements but also for the significant contribution they have made to raising the profile of women's sports. Media from all across the countiy were preseot at the Duckworth Centre, and the game was broadcast locally on radio station CJOB and canied from coast to coast on the TSN sports network.

140 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 6, 1994 The University of Winnipeg Wesmen WODal and the University of Manitoba Bison women are indeed excellent role models for all yomg women-national champions, academic all Canadians and North American ICCOid holders. They are, as well, sterling examples to all Manitobans of the excellence among our youth, a group most often focused upon in recent times with a small number who are making negative news headlines. Bravo and congratulations. Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for Wolseley have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Ms.

Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, I am delighted to be able to join with the Minister for Sport in recognizing the achievement of the University of Winnipeg women's basketball team who over the last two and a half years have had 88 cmseaJtive victories equalling the record set more than 20 years ago by the UCLA Bruins. Mr. Speaker, I have watched this team play many times over the last two and a half years.

They are a very fast-paced team whose skill, teamwork and dedication to each other is very DDCh evident on the floor, and thousands d. supporters over the last few years I think would recognize this. h has been a remarlalble achievement for a small institution in my constituency, Wolseley, and the fulfillment of the ambitions that the University of Winnipeg set for itself when it chose to concentrate on a small number of intercollegiate sports.

It is a IeDllll'kable achievement for women's sports to have the popular following of this U of W team, and I would like to commend the minister responsible for wODal on the team poster which she has sponsored with the inscription Role Models. Anyone who was present at the last two games will be in no doubt that these women atheletes are indeed forceful role models for many yomg men and WOIICl in this province.

It is also significant, as the minister also mentioned, that the present team with one exception is a product of the physical education programs in Manitoba high schools, a product of the public support for our teachers and coaches by all previous provincial governments. Mr. Speaker, I have watched this team play. I unfortunately missed the last four exciting seconds of the game on Friday, four seconds which enabled the University of Manitoba Bisons to end the record and four seconds which certainly are still being talked about by many Manitobans. Mr.

Speaker, victory would have been sweet, but the game goes on, and we would like to wish the Manitoba WOIICl's team; the best of success as they look to national competitions in the next few months. We note with pride the excellence that they represent for women's sports in this country. ORDERS OF THE DAY THRONE SPEECH DEBATE (Third Day or Debate) Mr. Speaker: On the adjourned debate, the third day of debate, on the proposed motion of the hooomable member for Pmerson (Mr.

Penner) for an address to His Honour the Lieutenant Governor, in answer to his speech at the opening of the session, and the proposed amendment by the honourable Leader of the official opposition (Mr. Doer), and the proposed subamendment as proposed by the honourable Leader of the Second Opposition (Mr. Edwards) in further amendment thereto, standing in the name of the honourable Minister of Agriculture, who has six minutes remaining. Hoo. Harry Eons (Minister or Agriculture): I would like to make a nonpolitical statement. Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable minister have leave? Mr. Enns: No, no, Mr. Speaker.

All my statements are nonpolitical. They are indeed for the benefit of all Manitobans, and I take it that they are so accepted by honourable members opposite. -

- - December 6, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 141 Mr. Speaker: We are into Orders of the Day. Does the hooourable minister want to revert back? We can revert. Work it into your speech, Harry. Mr. Eons: No, no, Mr. Speaker. I wish to resume the debate on the Speech from the Throne simply by acknowledging what I neglected to do last night as I attelq>ted to point out to my friend the Leader of the Liberal Party (Mr. Edwards) the difference between small potatoes and big potatoes.

I was able to bring one of the largest potatoes grown in the province of Manitoba in this fine crop year of '94 from the excellent farm of the Ponsin brothers at St. Eustache. I would like to acknowledge that that potato that I exhibited, tbat you threatened to punish me with, I might remind you, and you also agreed to undertake why the potato is being singled out as being the offending vegetable as compared to all the other vegetables that are grown in this province.

But if I dare bring in a potato in this House-it is actually written in Beauchesne-! cannot believe it tbat a .t:neni>er could be punished, but I accept that adm:nition from the Oerk's research team and do promise you that I shall bring no more potatoes into this Clamber. But that fine specimen was grown by one of my constituent farmers, the Ponsins of St. Eustache, and I simply wanted to put that on the recotd. Mr.

Speaker, the ooly odler coocluding comment that I would want to put on the record, and I do this most seriously because, as I speak, as we sit today in our Legislative Assembly, Canada's newest Premier, representing fully 25 percent of all Canadians, is of course in another Legislative Assembly providing the details of the coming referendum in Quebec. So that there is no misunderstanding where I stand on the matter, it is of course not simply a question of the future of Quebec, it is the future of Canada. Indeed should that initiative succeed, it would be the destruction of Canada. Mr.

Speaker, I am utterly confident, as confident as I can be, that Manitobans will, in the new year, want to place their trust, their confidence, in ~ Leader, the Premier of this province, to handle those very diffirult and important negotiations that all leaders of Canada will be called upon to bring sooner rather than later, not according to my time schedule, but according to the one that is being laid down today in the province of Quebec, in the Legislative Assembly of Quebec, by Premier Parizeau, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, with those few comments, I again enjoyed my opportunity to make these contributions to the throne speech, most of which I made last night, and I look forward to the debates and the contributions of other honourable members, as I always do, and wish them well in their ongoing dialogue here in this Chamber. Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Mr. Speaker, I am very, very pleased to be in a position to make s~ ca"•r:ads oo the throne speech that has been presented by the govemment Mr. Speaker, this is developing into probably the loogest election campaign in the history of the province.

We have been campaigning now for several months, and obviously, if conditions had been rigbt for the governing party, we would have found ourselves with the election probably over by now. I see a Premier over there who looks a little nervous these days and does not look entirely happy. Mr. Speaker, before I get into some further cce•••r:atts oo the tbrooe speech, I did want to wish the members of this House well who had aiJilOUilCed they were not running in the election or who contemplate leaving and have not announced yet or people who do not make it back here after the electioo.

I am reminded that perllaps a third of the 57 members here change over after each election, and I believe the average political life of an elected official in this province is about six }al'S. That is not partiaJiarly encouraging to us in this House. •

(1430) I do observe that after seven years it is time for

142 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 6, 1994 a political cbange. I am seeing that; it is becoming unmistakable. We are now at the point where the current Premier bas now exceeded the previous Premier in terms of longevity in this House. We are now past the point where the government can successfully argue with the public that they have not had two complete terms, that they have had a little short blip of a term and then a long term and they in fact need to be renewed.

Tbcy are at the point where the public now know that they have bad two terms, that they have had seven years, and their job right now is to try to convince the public that they can renew themselves, that they can present new directions and a fresh face to the public. Mr. Speaker, that is very hard to do in a government that bas been around for two terms. Unless the members opposite are going to voluntarily-you know, half of them are going to resign, and new people are going to come in and present a new face. That is not likely to happen.

Tbc liability that this two-term government bas is going into an election with a lot of the same people that it bas had now for seven years. Tbc enthusiasm is not there. (Mrs. Louise Dacquay, Deputy Speaker, in the Olair) Seven years ago they came in as a fresh govemnnd 1bey were very upbeat. You look at them now and there are tired faces, long in the tooth, especially long in the tooth. To me, they are a government that is just waiting to be tipped. When the electorate senses that the time bas come -and they will-the winds of change will blow.

As the former Minister of Finance bas pointed out many times before, it is impossible to change this. It is very rare for a government in today's environment to last three terms. I think we all agree that is the case. If it happens in Manitoba, that will defy a lot of conventional thought. Madam Deputy Speaker, I wanted to deal with some of the issues that this government is trying to gmpple with. 1he major issue is the issue of the deficits and the hypocrisy of this particular govemment in dealing with the deficits.

This government bas consistently promised the public that it would be fiscally prudent, it would be fiscally respoosible and it would deal with deficits. What we see after its seven years in office is an unparalleled record of an increase in deficits. We see of the $14 billion total debt of this province, this group opposite bas added $4 billion of the total since it came to office. That is an atrocious record.

The cynical attitude of this government is exemplified by the fact that they are attempting now to inttoduce what they call balanced budget legislation in an attempt to fool the public into believing that somehow they have been fiscally respoosible when they have been the most fiscally irresponsible government in the history of the province. Madam Deputy Speaker, we will have to take a look at a few of the figures, because the former Minister of Finance seems to want to forget some of the figures that are there for him to see.

In 1992-93 the Conservative government registered the highest annual actual deficit in memory at $748 million. In fact, the largest deficit of the NDP years was in 1987 at $559 million. Now, clearly, if you subtract one from the other you see that the worst deficit of the Conservatives is $189 million worse than the worst NDP year. This is a govemment that preaches fiscal respoosibility. Its record is absolutely, diametric ally opposed to what it-Let me tell you that I would have some sympathy for them if they bad not been so self-righteous about this position.

If they had been realistic and a little less self righteous about it one could have sympathy for them and say that it would be understandable, perhaps, given the times, that they could be out a little bit. But when they preach to the public that they are going to do something about the deficit, in fact that they are doing something about the deficit and then they wmck up the highest deficits m recoro, one bas to wonder about how gullible they feel the public will be. Madam Deputy Speaker, we intend to expose -

- - December 6, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 143 the fact, when the government brings down its so called balanced budget legislation, to point out the fact that this government has been anything but responsible.

We intend to point out that the balanced budget legislation is nothing more than window dressing for an election, and the members opposite know that no matter what kind of balanced budget legislation they bring in, they certainly have not followed it themselves, no pretext of doing it in the past They are not really in a position to be able to hamstring a future government to follow the legislation in the first place. It may sell well.

Their polling company may tell them that this is a popular thing, and it may sell well as far as the optics are concerned, but we feel that we can point out what the real story is here, and it is not a particular attractive story. Now, me other point before I get on to promises that this government has failed to keep, I do want to point out that the financial wizards over there who go to the business community and tell the business comn:nmity how sharp they are in finances, let us take a look at the year 1992 and '93 and see how close these wizaids came to forecasting their actual deficit.

Their budget deficit was $330 million. Now, would anybody here want to take a guess as to what the actual deficit was that year? Would it be reasonable to assume that the wizaids of finance would be out maybe $100 million? Would that be reasonable? Maybe $200 million? But the wizaids of finance were out. It was $748 million, and they projected $330 million. It is an unbelievable difference, yet it is all in there. •

(1440) MadamDeputySpeaker, the public is very tired of hearing empty promises from this government, and the government has its share of empty promises that we can point to at this time. The big one, of course, is the elimination of the debt. No ooe believes that this government is serious about eliminating the debt. Number two, this government promised that it has not raised taxes. We have seen advertising that this government puts out purporting to have not increased taxes now for the last six or seven years. That is absolutely totally false. In fact, the Free Press ran an

article a couple of years back after the budget, and the government themselves did a critique. Federal-Provincial Relations Research Division on April 7, 1993, did an examination of what the Free Press had to say. What the analysis was, was that this budget increased the amwal taxes on individuals by a total of $114 million. How can this government say that it has not raised taxes when in one year alone it raised an extra $53 million through the tax credit changes? It raised anot:bcr $48 million through expansion of the sales tax base.

It raised another $13 million through gasoline and gasohol, for a total of$114 million. If the government, Madam Deputy Speaker, were to have raised this revenue through mising the sales tax, it would have had to raise the sales tax from 7 percent to 8.25 percent, and it would have had to raise the personal income tax from 52 percent to 57 percent, a 5 percent increase. So this government has been very clever in its suggestions, sleight-of-hand suggestions, that somehow it has provided financial prudence and has not incmlsed taxes. Their own documents, their own briefing notes say that is not true.

As a matter of fact, what they did in that budget was that they took out the exemptions of the sales tax for things like baby bottles, nipples, soothers, tec:thers, baby cups and cutlery for children. They expanded the tax base so that 7 percent taxes were now charged on those items, thanks to this government So much, Madam Deputy Speaker, for the promise of no tax increases. 'Ibey also in that s~ budget brought in the tax on binders, foolscap, tampons, toothpaste. Every typical family of four got a $160 tax increase that year. Now, these are the briefing notes from the government.

If we were to use the figures in the Free Press

article of the day, those figures would

144 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 6, 1994 be nwch, much higher, but we are going to give this government the benefit of the doubt on this one and we are going to use the issues. Now, my Liberal friend from Inkster is trying to bait ID! and, you know, I was planning to leave the Liberals out of this at this time, but I am sorely ~to be drawn into making comments about my friends the Liberals.

I do notice, Madam Deputy Speaker, a nervousness on the part of the Liberals now as they see the federal government move along on its agenda and, you know, things are not exactly as rosy looking for the Liberals as they were a few months ago. I detect some nervousness over there on the part of the Liberals. I think that as the temperature drops and as the winter progresses, we are going to see that the Liberals may be lucky to have a percent for each of their existing members by the time the election is called.

I am on a strict time limit today, and I cannot digress too far to accommodate the ID!mber for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux), but perbaps at the end. Now, Madam Deputy Speaker, so we are in a position where we have to deal with what the g(}Vl':llllD';Dt is saying they are doing in their fancy ads and what they are doing in reality. I think the people in this election are going to have to come to grips with that, that this govem• "' '' is not being totally up front with them We have to look at the advertising that this government has spent.

They have spent an atrocious amount of public llliJDCY over the last few months massaging their image in advance of an election campaign. Well, Madam Deputy Speaker, they have spent over a million dollars taxpayers' money to run feel good ads to tty to improve what was at that time a very dismll showing in the opinion polls. I guess it has bad SOlD! results, but I think it has sort of peaked out for them now and they are not getting results.

I guess there is a point where money does not help, but they have certainly gone full-bore tiying to cuny the public's favour with its own nmey on the Grow Bond ads and other feel-good ads that the government is running. While the Provincial Auditor bas asked them to produce gWdclioes on advertising, they have yet to produce them, and I do not think you will see any guidelines on govemment advertising. 1hey have yet to produce them, and I do not think you will see any guidelines on government advertising before an election campaign.

Gambling is now becoming the biggest industcy of this province thanks to this government. This govemment brought in a moratorium last year on gambling but only after they had pretty nuch saturated the market with VL T machines and gambling palaces. Madam Deputy Speaker, the Lotteries minister is basically-the way gambling has overtaken the province, this government is nmning itself as a sort of as a modem day version of AI Capone. We have gambling casinos sprouting up all over the place. We could not possibly build any more of the minister's speakeasies or whatever the mmlber for Transcona (Mr.

Reid) called them The gambling palaces, the llliiJ:kd cannot handle any more of these things. So much for the moratorium. Now the government is dealing with the backlash that is developing because of the excess of gambling that is going on. It is creating problem~ with people who are becoming problem gamblers, and I predict that this great amount of revenue that we are seeing is going to see a down side. We are going to see a down side in the increase in social problems over the next few years. Now the government is playing around with the revenues from the gambling.

It has been holding back on these revenues, and they are planning to COlD! in with a SOID!Wbat balanced budget this year, which is going to be politically smart for them to do, and they will be using these lottery revenues to achieve this goal. Madam Deputy Speaker, we have to take a serious look and have a serious debate about the type of gambling that is allowed in this province and where we are going to end up at the end of the day with gambling. I can tell you that while it might be nice for the - -

December 6, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 145 government to have a cash cow here to have revenue coming in, it is not healthy to the citizens of the province if we have social problems that are plaguing us constantly because of it. Madam Deputy Speaker, this government-and it is not peculiar ODly to this government, a lot of governments have this problem We have a situatioo where what we see in throne speech after throoe speech is never acted upon. The question really is why would a government bring in items in a throne speech that it has no intention of bringing in.

StatsCan last year showed Manitoba with a decline in the ODP. It showed Manitoba 10 out of 10 of all Canadian provinces. This is after the government, throne speech after throne speech, promises a new and better Manitoba next year. Just stick with us, believe us, and we will lead you to the Promised Land. They do this every year. Every year they do this. The results are just not there.

Their approach to government is not working, and that is why in the election to come people are going to be given a choice, be given a choice between the old ways of the seven-year-old, tired Cooservative government or a new approach. I think that the new approach will be taken. *

(1450) Now, I had mentioned that there were many, many issues that I wanted to deal with today on the throne speech debate, but in order for all of the members to have a chance to speak on the throne speech, 40-minute speeches are not appropriate. So it is with sOJJJ: regret, Madam Deputy Speaker, that I cede the floor to the next speaker. Thank you very mJch. Mr. Jack Reimer (Niakwa): Madam Deputy Speaker, it is indeed a pleasure to stand up here and speak on the Speech from the Throne for the Sixth Session of the Thirty-fifth Legislature. Before I begin, I would like to congratulate Mr.

Speaker again for his wisdom and his overseeing of this House in his wisdom and his decision making and his availability of decision making from time to time when there are opinions that come out between the various programs and discussions that are brought forth. I would also like to at this time welcome the Pages who will be joining us for this session.

In particular, Madam Deputy Speaker, I would just like to put their nam::s back into Hansard because, as with everything, there is a certain amount of anonymity that they are being recognized with their wOJ.'k here and their brief sojourn in this place of law making and decision making for the province of Manitoba. The Pages, as was mentioned before, are Karen Remus, Ivan Holloway, Corinne Maes, Jeff Browaty, Jaime Hmkd and Davyd Hooper. These are students, not only from here in Winnipeg, but also from some of the outlying areas like Morris MacDonald School Division, River East, St. James and Boundary.

So, again, I would like to welcome the Pages who are going to be spending some time with us here in this great hallowed institute of learning. Before I talk too long into the throne speech, I would like to again just mention a few things that have happened in the great constituency of Niakwa, which I have the pleasure of representing. It has hem a very active S1JIDillCl1ime since we left this House to get involved with the activities.

Many of the things that happen in the comunmities, not ODly in the constituency of Niakwa but, I believe, in all constituencies, is during the summe1time, there is a time for commmity events. There are the carnivals that happen in the various areas. I had the opportunity to be involved with the carnival at the Southdale Comunmity Centre, which is in my constituency, and also the Winakwa Commmity Centre. At these comunmity centres, there is always the fun for the families and the fimd-raising events that go oo.

The ooe thing that is very prevalent in both comunmity centres and one thing that I have noticed and I am very proud of is the fact of the strong commitment to volunteerism in my comunmity. I am very fortunate that the commmity centres are a very strong part of the commmity. One of the biggest factors is the people who are involved with that, and they are the commmity people and the volunteers that get involved.

146 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 6, 1994 They are both vecy, vecy strong cnmmmity centres. lbey have strong leadership. They have strong guidance by the people on their executive and the people who volunteer. 1be sports programs are, bar none, some of the best in Manitoba and indeed in Winnipeg. There is the opportunity for ball tournaments during that time. There was brief mention before, just at the end of Questioo Period during nonpolitical statements, of some of the sports that were happening in Manitoba.

I, too, would like to congratulate an event that happened just two weeks ago in II§' constituency. Actually it was the Provincial AA Volleyball Ouunpionships that were played hcie in Manitoba. There were two collegiates in the constituency of Niakwa that were in competition for the championship, for the Provincial AA Volleyball girls Ouunpionship. In fact, it was the team from College Beliveau versus Windsor Park Collegiate for the championship. The game was the best of three. The tournament for the chalq>ioosbip went to two points in each game for the winners.

The teams were competing not mly against teams here in Winnipeg but teams from all across Manitoba. so it was indeed a pleasure that both teams that were vying for the championship, as urntimcd the College Beliveau team and Windsor Park Collegiate team, were both from the constituency of Niakwa. The most valuable player that was recognized for the whole tournament was a young lady from College Beliveau, Onistioe Binnie, who happened to be vecy prolific in her scoring of points for the College Beliveau team.

So it was indeed quite an honour not only to have the two teams competing but also the MVP for the whole tournament coming from College Beliveau. Also I would like to just mention a few things that happened in Niakwa dming the summer. This was the time for some block parties. One of the things that smm of the areas in my constituency do is, they fonn block parties from time to time. These are parties not mly for the adults but also for the cbildren and the younger people when they bring forth games and events for them to participate in. One of them bad a fire truck there for the children to play around in.

It was quite an event for the young people. McHappy Days was quite an event in our constituency. We had one of our McDonald's, whidl donated the money to charity on September 27. It was quite an interesting experience, because I bad the opportunity to work in one of the McDonald's in the constituency. Those young people that work there, they certainly do know how to work, and they certainly do know how to make things happen. I congratulate all the young people that were involved with those programs.

There were a number of students that woo awards in my ca:IStitueocy at graduation from high school, and these are students who won entrance scholarships at various universities, and I would just like to mention their names and the scholarship that they happened to win. There was Carolyn Doris Wilton, who won a University of Manitoba Entrance Scholarship; Heather Lym Hinam-excuse me, Carolyn Doris Wilton was from College Beliveau. She won a University of Manitoba Entrance Scholarship.

Heatbcr Lynn Hioam, also from College Beliveau, she woo the Olown Centennial Scholarship; Koren Elan Bailes from College Beliveau, a Canada Scholarship and University of Manitoba Scholarship; Jason Ryan Taylor from Glenlawn. Collegiate, he won the University of Manitoba Entrance Scholarship; Melanie Jean Gregg from J.H. Bruns Collegiate, a University of Manitoba E'ntrance Scholarship; Heather Ann Barclay from J .H.

Bruns Collegiate, the Olown Centennial Scholarship; Joanne Esther Devos from the Mcnnmite Bldbren Collegiate won the University of Manitoba Entrance Scholarship; Heather-Anne Mattsoo from the Mennonite Brethren Collegiate, University of Manitoba Entrance scholarship; Melroy Dawn Young from Murdoch MacKay, a University of Manitoba Entrance Scholarship and a Canada Scholarship; Nadia Nicole Tomy-she is enrolled at St. John's Ravenscourt, the Leader of Tomonow Scholarship; Geetika Singh Verma from St. John's Ravenscourt, the Leader of - -

- - December 6, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 147 TOIDJliOW Scholarship and a Canada Scholarship; and Owmaine Dawn Yee, from Windsor Park Collegiate, woo a Clown Centennial Scholarship. I will give these ~s to Hansard. so that they do have the proper spelling for it at the cod of ~ speaking notes. So those are just a few of the students in ~ constituency of Niakwa that had an outstanding year at school and availed themselves of scholarships. •

(1500) Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like to now talk a little bit on the throne speech that was delivered just the odJer day here in Manitoba. It is appropriate that at this time of year when we think of the cod of the year and we look forward to the new year that there is a certain amount of anticipation and a certain amount of excitement as we come through into the new year. One of the things is that we look forward to the new year with a sense of optimism and a sense of satisfaction as to what we have planned during 1994 and how we look forwani to 1995.

The throne speech being delivered at this time gives us that type of projection. It gives us the outline of what is in line and in the planning stage fur the new year, not ooly fur Manitoba but for this government and where this govemment has taken the people of Manitoba. I would just like to outline a few of the things that have been put forth in the throne speech. We talk about the economic growth here in Manitoba.

One thing that is of note is that Manitoba's economic growth has outperformed the Canadian average for three of the last four years. 1he Cooference Board has forecast 3. 7 percent growth for Manitoba for 1994. Any type of growth like this is an optimistic look at what people believe and what business believe in Manitoba and how these things can come about, not ooly for the betterment of the economy, but the betterment for all people living in Manitoba. There are new initiatives to encourage the growth of small business, including a pooled iovest:mcot ftmd. There is

an act upon a number of recommendations of the Manitoba Task Force on Capital Markets to provide a source of capital for small business and the creation of jobs. There is a major event in the spring of '95 to connect entrepreneurs and small business with investors. There are other initiatives which would harness the information highway to increase the competitiveness of Manitoba firms, to assist Manitoba exports, especially in the agrifood industries, in capturing opportunities from emerging markets.

We see that in the recent emphasis brought forth with the Premiers and the entourage that was over on the so-called Team Canada with the Prime Minister touring Olina and the optimism in the outlook for possible continuation of growth in exports of Manitoba commodities and Manitoba goods to that part of the world The opportunities for growth in a large ecmomy like Japan is unlimited in the sense of the vast amount of consumability, if you want to call it, of goods that is available because of the markets there in Olina.

The area of education has been something that this government has brought forth by the Minister of Education (Mr.

Manness) in the Renewing Education: New Directions blueprint for renewal of the education system 'There is the emphasis to organize a second parents forum to give parents a greater voice in the operation of schools, wodc with western provinces and the tenitories to develop a COlDIIIOO core cwriculum There is the emphasis to establish a Western Institute of Reading Recovery in Winnipeg to support the development of literacy skills, the continuance of wmk to respond to the Roblin commission, which is to ensure that youth benefit from linking programs at community colleges to the labour markeL In the area of education, one of the things that has been highlighted is the fact that there is not only an involvement with all the stakeholders but the bringing together of the parents to be part of the input and the direction as to what they feel is

148 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 6, 1994 available and what they should be involved in, not only in the teaching of their children, but the admioistratioo to a degree of the schooling and the aspect of how education fits into today's society and how they can contribute to it.

So the fact of bringing the various factors together, not only the students, the teachers and the parents, but the sdlool boards and the trustees and, natmally, the department itself in trying to get a better outlook and direction as to what education may be headed for in the new year and indeed into the 21st Century, Madam Deputy Speaker. It has been mentioned before in regard to the security of Manitobans. Manitobans have indeed said that they do place a high priority on the security of the individual and personal property here in Manitoba. Our government, through the Minister of Justice (Mrs.

Vodrey), has brought forth some tough legislation and the intent as to how we should be tackling and the directioo that this government should be taking. The fact that we wiD press the federal government for the strengthening of the Youth Offcoders Act is something that has brought forth one of the strongest positions-in fact I believe it is the st:rmgest positioo-of any province in Canada as to the direction that the Youth Offenders Act should be revamped is indeed a aedit to not only the province of Manitoba, but the Minister of Justice in her pursuit of trying to bring forth these initiatives.

We have also brought forth initiatives to ensure that victims of stalkers are notified of the event that the stalker is released or put out on bail. We have developed initiatives to prevent public notificatioo of dangerous sexual offenders who are in their commmity, particularly those who prey on children and letting the people in the commmity know who has come out of jail and their offences regarding the stalking and sexual offenders. There is also the reviewing mechanism for placing names of convicted pedophiles on the Child Abuse Registry.

There is the pursuit of development of initiatives to permit expanded services for aimc victilm. All these initiatives are brought forth by the Minister of Justice (Mrs. Vodrey) in the hope and the idea that the safety and security of Manitobans comes first in any type of legislative initiatives that we look at in the sense ofttying to make Manitoba a better place to live and a better place to raise a family. In regard to Health and Family Services, health will continue to dominate a large portion of the budget here in Manitoba.

In fact if you look at the budget, I believe 33 percent or 34 percent of the budget is dedicated to health care. Here in Manitoba it is one of highest, if not the highest perteotage of any governmm in Canada, in regard to our dedication to health care here in the province. The budget has raised from $1.3 billion I believe when we took government in 1990 to a budget now of almost $1.8 billion or over $1.8 billion dollars per year. 1bis represents oo average over $1,800 per man, woman and child or per reskknt of Manitoba regarding health care and the availability of the health care profession. In a recent

article in the paper-1 imagine about a week ago-there was an

article in which an independent swvey was done regarding the conditions of health care in Manitoba and the Manitoba government. If I recall, the heading in the paper said that health service in Manitoba is A-OK. The redirected priorities that the government initiated regarding the allocation of funding had no ill effect on the quality and the quantity of health care that was brought forth here in Manitoba through the various hospitals and the il:q>Jmrntatioo of these priorities and the direction that they were taking.

So, Madam Deputy Speaker, as nuch as we hear from the other side about the naysayers and the doomseekers of how health care and how health care arts are afiCcting Manitobans, when you look at an increase of over a half a billion dollars or $500 million from 1988 to 1994, budget of $1.8 billioo, that money going into health care is being well spent. It has been put into priorities where it should be spmt, with the emphasis on duplication and overlap, with a majority of the people that are - -

- December 6, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 149 involved with health care realizing that there is a better way to do things. It does not mean that there is a jeopardy in any way of health care that is brought forth to Manitobans. Madam Deputy Speaker, I would just like to talk a little bit on other aspects that were brought forth by the Leaders of the opposition parties in their address to the throne speech. One of the things that was mentioned I believe by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Doer), the member for Coocmlia, is the tact that when there was mention in the paper and the notification of approximately $100 million that · was coming to Manitoba because of the ttansfer funds that this was some sort of windfall of nxney that the Manitoba govem••att had come upon. But there has to be a realizatioo also, and I would just like to quote, that the transfer payurnts to our province are driven by population and a mathematical fommla. •

(1510) There is no politics oo the part of deciding these funding levels. The ttansfer of funds between provinces is all based on the population and a mathematical formula. So just as we have bad an increase in the ttansfer paymems in the last while we also have to take imo accoum that the same fomllla rut transfers by $168 million in 1993 and $323 million in 1992. So just as there bas been an ~in 1imding over the last fiscal year, during the year 1993 there was a cut of $168.5 million in the ttansfer paymem and in 1992 there was a cut of $323 million.

So if you add that up you are looking at almost $500 million of monies that have been cut from the Manitoba govemmem coffers in the sense of ttansfer paymems from the federal govemment. Yet this govemmem still bas been able to absorb those losses through its intemal mechanisms of reprioritization of funding and the availability of 1imding that was left to the province to raise.

The tact is that in the three areas of health care, family services and education, those were the three areas of govemmem that took a high priority of funding and those are the areas that did not suffer because of the cutting in the ttansfer paymems. In fact, those three areas now take up almost, I believe it is, 67 per cent of the budget in funding for our goveJIIJllml Madam Deputy Speaker, let it not be said by the opposition that this govemment cuts funding to the vital areas of services for our government.

Our priorities have always been and will cootinue to be in health. in the social services and the education of our young people here in Manitoba in all levels of education. I would like to just talk a minute about our colleagues on the other side of the House and the Leader of the Second Opposition (Mr. Edwards). I found it quite interesting when the Leader of the Oppositioo (Mr. Doer), the meoi>er for Concordia, and the Leader of the party brought forth their speech from the throoc, if you want to call it. I am not quite sure what day it was. They bad quite a release.

The Leader spoke for almost 40 minutes when he put forth his release. It covered approximately 13 or 14 pages of suggestions and input as to what they felt was the way that the govemmcnt should be run and the ideas that they brought forth. They brought forth page after page of ideas of where they felt that their govemmcnt would go, I mean where they would take the govemment if they were elected to office. The Liberals then came out with their own paper, I think it was about two days later. That was two pages of the Liberal agenda where they wanted to go.

I found it very passing strange that when the Leader of the Second Opposition (Mr. Edwards) got up to talk and he kept hammering, where is it in the throne speech about agriculture, where is it in there about jobs, where is it in there about education? When you look at their tw~ page document-! should mention that half of the header takes up page me-there is nothing, absolutely nothing in there about rural initiatives. There is nothing in there.

There is a tw~page document that says nothing, and this is what they are going to take to the people, a tw~page docunrm as to what they think they should feel is initiatives that the people of Manitoba should be looking for. Madam Deputy Speaker, it is phenomenal how the Leader of the Liberal Party can stand up and

150 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 6, 1994 aiticize a govem••e ", be m all sides of all issues, and when anything is brought forth in the House as to what this goveiillrent, the initiatives it is doing, the first thing that comes out. well, we talked about that. We were m this side of it. 'Ihey could be on all sides at all times and not know where they are going. So it is interesting and, like I say, passing strange that this is the Leader of the Second Oppositim when he comes forward with his great two-page document here.

At least I will give credit to the Leader of the official opposition, the member for Concordia. They did do a lot of Ibctoric, liiOre Ibctoric I should say, in their throne speech. One of the things that the Leader of the Second Oppositim (Mr. Bdwants) has been talking about from time to time is lotteries and the fact that lotteries is such a growth industry here in Manitoba. I will agree with the member to that extent that it is a growth industry here in Manitoba because there are approximately 6,000 jobs that are directly dependent m lottery revenue.

There are 5,563 jobs that are generated through the Manitoba Lotteries corporation. 1bere are also about 400 jobs through the capital project which represents almost 6,000 jobs that come from the Manitoba Lotteries commission. If we were to go even a little bit further and follow the advice of the member for Inkster (Mr. l...aiooureux) in which he has advocated the adding of a1m>st two more, I believe it is, casinos outside of Winnipeg, we could see that this would be an additional growth area of liiOre jobs and more opportunities for people here in Manitoba to have a job and som:thing to go to.

In essence, I believe what the Leader of the Liberal Party keeps advocating is that the growth area is not good for Manitoba. 'They are continually advocating some sort of forum, some sort of input by the people. There is nothing at all wrong with the member for St. James holding a public fonm and inviting as DlllD¥ people as he wants, to listen to their concerns. Nobody is holding him back from having the public forums.

He can send out-what was it?-47,000 letters, something like that, for a swvey, and yet to have a public forum is too hard for them to do but to talk about it and to make the bravado statements here in the House that this is the way to do it. I would also like to point out the fact that the Leader of the second opposition has also said that gambling is a choice. There is a choice involved with gambling, and if people choose to gamble, that is their choice.

For us to legislate and have the big-brother approach as to who and what should be done and what cannot be done is going against the natural abilities of people to make a choice. If people choose to gamble, they are going to choose to do it, and the availability is either here or in the United States. •

(1520) There are many oddities when you look at the agenda of the Manitoba Liberals. I recall, and I want to maim, when one of the fOllllCr members for Crescentwood was in the House, there was a debate m lotteries and with the fact that the casino IDllley"""in partiaJlar, the debate was on the casino, which is one of the three gambling areas here in Wimipeg, and he is quoted as saying that actually the casino revenue goes to promote health care, another policy with which we disagree.

So here we have the former member for Crescentwood, at that time I believe he was deputy leader of the Liberal Party here in Manitoba, going on policy saying that they disagree with the money going to health care. I mean, there is a juxtaposition of positiming here that is incredible, because when you look at the ti'CID:2ldous benefits that the casino has brought forth because of the almost $10 millim a year that has gone into capital improvements and the health care for Manitoba, this is all revenue that comes from gambling. It comes from a casino.

We have the former deputy leader of the Liberals saying that they disagree that it should be going to health care. Where should the money be going? There is also the reference by, I believe it was, the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux}, saying that lottery mooey should be tourist oriented and directed toward tourist ventures. So we have money going all over the place within the levels, and yet they are talking about having J:llOOeY -

December 6, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 151 available and to have the mmey available. An interesting fact is if we talk about the availability about the money from lotteries and saying that we did not have it, what it would relate to is if the $214 million-I believe it was $214 million that bas cotre as a source of revmue into the provincial coffers-was not taken into account, that would represent a sales tax increase of almost 13 percent to make up that shortfall in the provincial ecmomy.

The tax revenue that we are getting from lotteries, and indeed doing a benefit to all of Manitoba, is not mly in health care but in the advocation of areas of concem for the government. Lotteries-it should be pointed out in other areas of Canada, the six liberal governments in Canada, including the federal govemment, the~e are only four of them that have conducted studies into problem gambling. Here in Manitoba that was one of the first things we did was to foml an inquiry into problem gambling and to address the problem with it.

Other Liberal govemments in Canada have talked about it but they have not done anything about it. The responsibilities of initiating a study by the Lotteries minister was conducted. Other areas in Canada they will talk about it and do nothing about it. Madam Deputy Speaker, I can see that-[interjection] Yes, we are getting close to the time, but I would just like to take a moment because from time to time some of my colleagues here on this side of the House have mentioned a certain admonition, if you want to call it, of the Leader of the Secood Opposition (Mr.

Edwanls) of where he is referring to the fact that the rural development and the avenues of growth into Manitoba through the REDI program and through the Grow Bonds resulted in a small potatoes type of attitude. This is not the first time the Leader of the Second Opposition has sort of put himself into a position of disrespect and disrepute of his colleagues and some of the people here in this House. I can recall that at the time when the North American Commission for the Fnvironment Corporation was switched to Montreal, we all recall that Manitoba and Winnipeg was the natural site.

It had all the amenities, all the availabilities of the ciiaJit, but because of political posturing by the federal Liberals, they decided to put it in Montreal. Well, you know that this side of the House-1lnd I believe the colleagues from the NDP, from the official opposition, we~e aghast at what was happening and how we lost this thing. But where did the Leader of the Second Opposition (Mr. Edwlmls) stand? His comments were: There are better fish to fry. There are better fish to fry, and there are small potatoes. So now we have fish and chips here. We have fish and chips as the leader of the second potato.

We have the Leader of the Second Opposition (Mr. Edwlmls) saying that he has bigger fish to fry and at the same time that the initiatives we bring out are small potatoes. Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like to coolioue on with some of my comments regarding the Leadc:r of the Opposition (Mr.

Doer), but there is one area that I would like to mention regarding the Leadc:r of the Second Opposition and that is in the fact that the Leader of the Opposition was talking about the budget and the fact that the monies that were available and the accounting practice that he was inferring that we were bringing into being in the presentation of the books. Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like to refer back to 1984. At that time the Manitoba Auditor, Mr. Bill Ziprick, when he was presented with the books at that time he would not sign the books because he said that the books were misleading and unfair.

An Honourable Member: Or in layman's terms, cooked Mr. Reimer: Well, there is creative accounting. I am saying that there was a creative accounting procedure that was implemented by the government at that time, and the Auditor, Mr. Ziprick, would not sign them In fact, he said and I quote: No way I can verify $165 million is the

152 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 6, 1994 net deficit, because if I do that Manitobans will be misled to believe that our deficit is only $165 million where at that time it was closer to $429 million. 1be Minister of Finance at that time, who was a Mr.

Vic Schroeder was asked to C01lliDCilt on the Auditor's reluctance to sign the books. 1he Finance minister, and I am quoting at that time, the Finance minister Vic Schroeder's airy way of dismissing as "just an accountant's opinion" the concems of Provincial Auditor William Ziprick about his budgetary practices is unlikely to impress those foreign lending institutes which Mr. Schroeder visits tegularly in search of IIDlCy. Those institutions employ accountants too, and they can add and subtract just like Mr. Ziprick. 'Iheie we have one of the first times-and I do not know whether that is the first time.

I would have to tef.Cr maybe to one of my colleagues in the House as to whether this was the first time an Auditor refused to sign the report that was put forth by the Finance minister. I looked for some- An Honourable Member: It was at least the first time in 28 years. Mr. Reimer: 'lb:n I can say that, Madam Deputy Speaker. To my knowledge, in the last 28 years no Auditor has ever tefused to sign the books other than when the NDP government. back in 1984, presented its budget. That is something of note that should be teeorded at this particular time.

It should be also noted that during the period from Apri11, 1986, to March 31, 1988, under the NDP administration five major Crown corporations lost $317 million. I will just mention MPIC lost $125 million, Hydro lost $60 million, MTS lost $48 million, MDC lost $42 million and Manfor lost $42 million. This was under the NDP in the period between 1986 to March 31, 1988. So when the NDP stand up here and say that they had a surplus in 1988, I have to ask where was the member that I believe sat in the seat next to me in the House? Why did he sit in his seat when they called for the vote?

He sat in his seat because he voted against the deficit of $380 million. He was not sitting in his seat to vote against a smplus. He was sitting in his seat right here to vote against a deficit. Madam Deputy Speaker, let it not be said that the founer govemment passed on a smplus. [interjection] I was just talking about the Auditor, the Auditor that did not sign. 1hete ate many, many more things that I could speak about. However, my time is running short at this particular time.

Madam Deputy Speaker, it is indeed a gteat pleasute to stand up in this House and speak at tbis time, and just in case I do not get up to speak again before OJristmas time I would like to extend my congratulations and warmest gteetings to all members in this House for a vecy, vecy m::ny OJristmas and a new year of peace and prosperity as we go into the year 1995. Thank you vecy much. •

(1530) Mr. Conrad Santos (Broadway): Madam Deputy Speaker, a gentleman excited and puffing went home hur.riedly because he just came from a doctor who diagnosed him as having a terminal illness. He said you only have five hours to live. So he said to his wife, what ate we going to do? The wife suggested, well, let us think about the tmSt pleasurable activities that we can do together in five hours. Let us order an exciting and exotic meal, a sumptuous meal, and they did 1bey ate together with wine and candlelight, and two hours were spent. So what do we do next, asked the wi&. 1be husband said, I do not know.

The wife said, let us make love, and so they spent the next two hours. An Honourable Member: Three hours? Mr. Santos: Next two hours. Well, there is lots of fOieplay there, you know. So they spent the next two hours. The last hour the wife asked, this is your last hour, what ate we going to do? 1he lmsbaod said, let us do it again. The wife said no. He said, why not? You know, I will have to get up and you will be stiff above me. I cannot do it. She will have to get up, but the husband is to die on top ofbcr and so she will not do it. Now, what -

December 6, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 153 is the lesson of the story? 1bere is a moral lesson here. 1be moral lesson is, every individual, regardless of situation, whether in politics or in economics or in family life, everyooe acts according to self-interest. On that basis, we seek things that will give us satisfaction, that will ptomJte our self-interest. 1bere we enter the field of economics. So in society we produce goods and selvices to satisfy our basic needs, our wants and our desires, and that is what we exchange in our material life on this planet Barth.

There is a classical view that the production requires the basic factors of land, labour and capital, but there is a Nobel Prize winner who wrote another theory of the productive process. His nan:J! is Fmleric:k Soddy. His book is Wealth, Virtual Wealth and Debt. He instead used the three factors of discovery, natmal enctgy and human diligence as the three basic factors in the production process of goods and selvices. So we produce, whatever the factors are, we produce goods and selvices. We exchange it among ourselves as members of society. Initiallyv.oe had to do it by barter.

I had to bring a sack of big potatoes to the barber before the barber can give me the service of cutting my hair. The ooly trouble with barter is, it is not always fair, because there is no unit of value that is uniform. If I am a fanner or a cow breeder and I have a haircut I need to bring a cow to the barber, and I cannot always do it. If it is too expensive I cannot rut the cow into half and just bring him the head. It cannot be done that way, and so we invented the use of money. Mooey in itselfhas no utility. It has no value in itself. 1be value lies in the fact that it can serve the three functions.

It is a medium of exchange, which means you can use it for paying your obligations, your debt. It is a store of value and as well a unit of accoWlting of the value of things. It is simply like number. It has no physical existence. Although you can see the paper bill, that is not the money, it is just a representation of money. Although you can see the coins, it is not the real money; it is the conception, the idea that is important as a medium of exchange. It is just like a number. You cannot touch it. It is intangible.

Number 1, No. 2, No. 3, where are they? 1bese are just creations of the mind The same thing with mooey-it has no utility in itself. Who can create money in our society? 1be British North .Anuica Act, when this countty was founded,

Section 91, various subsections there gave the power to create money to the federal government. By giving the power of cmrency, coinage, banking, interest, legal tender, promissory notes and all those authorities there, the federal government had the power to create money. Authority to aeate m:>ney therefore is correlated with the responsibility of the federal government, the responsibility being that it cannot just create mooey, it IIDlSt have a one-to-one cOITCspondence with real goods and services in the society.

You can ooly create money when there is a counterpart of goods and services for which it can be attached. 'Ih:n it has the responsibility to create that kind of money. In 1itct, the federal government, since the start of confederation, had created money for the first 46 years without incurring debts in exeiCise of its constitutional right under the British North America Act,

Section 91. What happened after 46 years? In 1913, the Parliament of Canada passed the Bank Act, which created and established the banking system in Canada in which the federal govermnent delegated and gave an exclusive monopoly to the chartered banks, the system of banking in Canada to create money under the supervision of the Central Bank of Canada, with the statutory right to charge interest for any client, including the government itself.

As consumers and as producers we therefore exchange things that are useful to us through the :tmdium of money, but as producers we specialize, and in specialization v.oe produce a quantity, a number of particular products of which we have very little use after we have satisfied our personal

154 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 6, 1994 needs. So as producers we have to sell and dispose of the rest of what we produce in exchange for a diversity of other products that other people are capable of producing, which we need as consumers. We use mooey in the process of exchange. Now when a builder of a house creates a house through raw material and through his intelligence and knowledge of house building and therefore he contributed value himself to the house, the house itself is a physical asset. It has material existence. It has tangibility, mass, dimension. It is real, what we call real wealth, real physical wealth, the house. •

(1540) When he sells this house to a buyer who needs the moocy, be goes to a bank and the banker lends him the symbolic medium of exchange, this llUlliJer, this m::nta1 aeatioo, this value in the form of a loan, say $100,000. So the buyer pays the cheque to the seller, but the banker, who had nothing in there, bad to charge him interest according to the rate of interest that he had to pay. According to the law of simple and compounding laws of mooey matters, that interest will multiply and, in the ultimate analysis, he will find himself paying the banker maybe twice the value of the house.

That excess has no valid basis in actual real wealth. That is pure interest, the operation of mathematics. So the banker bad created income when there is no real value. When the buyer defaults, he will foreclose the mortgage and then take the house itself as owner when be has no capital interest in it in the sense of physical, material wealth, except the symbolic value of money. The honourable member for Lakeside (Mr.

Eons) says, time is moocy-ooly because it is translated into the material of physical wealth by the process of foreclosure that mooey symbolic becomes the house itself, and the bank becomes the owner. That is, therefore, a kind of legal mystery by which a symbolic, nonexistent medium of exchange was converted into physical wealth. So, with the complicity of the legal system, the lender of the moocy, who had no real value, giving to the asset itself that was exchanged, becomes the owner, and it is covetousness in the extreme sense. (Mr.

Speaker in the Clair) By such foreclosure, we can see that the false monetmy value, called money, which has no intrinsic value in itself, is converted into physical asset, the house itself. Let me illustrate. Money by itself, you cannot eat it, it is not useful as food, but you can buy food to eat. You cannot sleep on it; it is not even large enough to contain your back, but you can buy a bed. You cannot live in money, but you can buy a house. So in itself it has no use, except as a medilun of cxcbaoge, and that is what it should be.

Without creating therefore and without producing corresponding physical wealth, the banking system, through the legal system, bad converted by magical machination an empty, nominal asset called money into a real physical asset called real thing, real house, real car, real things that are useful to human existence.

This correspondence, this phenomenon of dealing and wheeling and exchanging with false wealth, without the cOllesponding physical asset, is the fulfilment of what was written in Jeremiah: From the least of them, even to the greatest of them, evecyme is given to covetousness; and from the prophet even to the priest, everyooe deals falsely.

The mooey creation by the charter banks, can you imagine the federal government as principal appointing and delegating to the agent the system of private banks the power to create mooey and then the agent itself turning around and charging the principal, from whom it gets the authority to create the money, with interest? That is what is happening. So we ask: How did it happen then that the federal government and its deceptively

- December 6, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 155 independent and autonomous agent. the central Bank of Canada, supposedly the regulator of the private banking system, suddenly finds itself in debt to its own agent? In the fiscal year 1993- 1994, there is $508 billion accumulated indebtedness of the federal Government of Canada to the private charter bank.

At the top of this, in the fiscal year 1994-1995, there is a $42-billion annual deficit charged against the federal govemmcnt and which, by the law of compounding, will be merged with the accumulated debt so that the debt will multiply filster than any revenue of the federal govemmeDL How did it happen that way?

The brief answer to this is that when the senior officials in the Departnrnt of Finance and in the Central Bank of Canada in 1975 got converted to the ideology of m:metarism, they adopted a high-interest policy so that the system of private banks can collect the fastest ever producing income from interest than any other foDn of income in the Canadian ecooomy.

It is to favour the private banking system But the private banking system is so greedy and so covetous it even exacted the same interest from the federal government itself, which originally had the constitutional authority to exercise the right that the private banking system had been exercising. So it is like you brought up an adopted son and then he turned around and collected all your estate and your assets for himself. What is this monetarism that we are talking about? It is called the Orlcago school of economics, spearheaded by a professor named Milton Friedman.

According to this school of thought. it is the changes in the money supply that are the main determinants of prices, income and employment It views the ecooomy as a self regulating, self-correcting system, so called, under the theory of the free market and that the governnrnt had no legitimacy in meddling with its operation except to control a regulated rate of growth in the money supply to avoid and prevent inflation. Just like any other ideology, this is an ideology. Ideology is like economic bigotry.

You see, interest rates in this country soared high in 1981, up to 19.3 percent, when the annual federal deficit-the interest charges that the bank is charging on the national debt-was then only $10 billioo approximately. So, while the federal government sank deeper and deeper into debt, the private charter banks who are collecting all these interest charges, interest even against the federal govenm r:nl itself. are amassing greater and greater profits for which they hardly pay any income tax. So what is happening here?

This is the fidfilment of Ezekiel: Thou hast taken usury and increased it by yourself and hast greedily gained from thy neighbours by extortion, and hast forgotten me, saith the Lord. It is an extortion in the legal sense. This is not only extortioo, and where will the money be obtained otherwise? Well, the federal government has been cutting social programs. They are putting it on the back of the wotkers, tightening the screws oo memployment insurance, clawing back even the pensions of the senior citizm under the pretext that it is intolerable to allow this deficit to go oo and grow.

That is the very scheme by which the federal government itself had entered into by the arrangenrnt that it started with the private system of chartered banks. Now, we cannot only just aiticize and say that this is this, this is bad, this is that Let us do some constructive criticism, some constructive suggestion. •

(1550) First, let the central bank itself exercise its coostitutional authority, acting as the agent of the federal government, and issue the money itself with very little interest, as it had done in 1940. They issued then interest of about 1 percent only, from Treasury bills and 2.5 percent from longer term bonds. Then they were able to raise the money without getting into debt. Secmd, better still, equalize the contribution of the corporate income with the individual income.

Individuals are complaining about high rates of taxation. 'Ih-n they should equalize it by reducing the individual portion, by tax cuts and increasing the corporate portion. The objection is that you will be taxing corporate income double way, first as corporation income and then as dividend

156 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 6, 1994 inc:olre. The answer is already given by the Carter Tax Commission in 1966, when he suggested we should all abolish the corporate tax and whatever income com::s from corporations should simply be cowued as part of individual income and taxed at the same rate as any other income of the individual. In that way we avoid all these tax loopholes about a lower form of taxes because the income com::s from dividends, because the income comes from private corporations, because the income comes from capital gain, because the income comes from this and from that.

We abolish all those loopholes. There will be no more justification because there is not such thing as corporate income tax. Evety mooey that comes, every profit that comes will be taxed at the same rate as individual income. Then we should also tax huge inheritance transfer, tax the ttusts that are shielded from the fi:deral tax. We tax the winnings in gambling and lotteries and we tax on luxwies. In that way the deficit, the s<H:alled deficit, will be paid up. The government will not incur any more debts, and it will be increasing its revenue by taxing and closing all these loopholes.

In other words, most economic issues that we quand about are in fact political issues. They are issues of ideology. Morality is the essmce. Morality as principle is the essence of politics. Nothing really is politically correct unless it is based on ethics. Most political issues are really issues of right and wrmg. Do you think it is right, for example, for the provincial government to pay back the salaries of the judges for the Fllmon Fridays? Do you think it is moral when all the others have to go m. without reimbmsement. Why did it happen? Because they were the ones who decide things in the judiciary.

They were the judges and they were deciding their own interests in their own self-interest. Shame on them It was written a lmg time ago: And then I came and I saw in the place of judgment, the court, there was wickedness, and in the place of righteousness Uglise there was iniquity. In our institutions there are so many false and empty idols that we worship, that we follow to the detriment of human beings. Therefore we should not trust in material riches. That has been wamed long ago. Let us not be covetous of the material things that do not last. Rather place your faith and trust in the treasures in heaven.

For where you heart is, where your treasure is, there your heart shall be. Thank you, Mr. Speaker Ms. Norma McCormick (Osborne): Mr. Speaker, it is my privilege to speak on behalf d my party in response to the Speech from the Throne. It is an interesting time when this govemment claims over seven budgets to have frozrn major taxes and to have introduced tax cuts and incentives for individuals and small businesses to stimulate the economy and create jobs. Indeed this claim bears close scrutiny for both validity and accuracy. First the claim that it has frozen major taxes.

It appears the net effi::ct of this approach has been the downloading of a number of formerly tax supported programs and services on to the people they were intended to assist. It now appears that there has been a shift in priorities from public spending. The things that our taxes are now paying for are the things that benefit the government more than benefit the taxpa)U. Cm.versely, the things that government once paid for to the benefit of individuals and fiunilies have now been passed on as direct cost to them There are several examples which provide a clear illustration in this shift in priorities.

Even IDJre surprisingly, they say that they are spending taxpayers' dollars smarter as a guiding principle. Well, try this for smart. When the province and the city made a COilJllli1na1t of over $10 million to cover the operating losses of the Winnipeg Jets, there was an itnrnr1Jiate consequence to the hockey playing children in Winnipeg. The cost of ice rentals for games and practices in the city of Winnipeg rinks and arenas went up by 35 percent, from $69.55 to $96.30 an hour.

December 6, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 157 As a parent I am paying $3 a game for game time or practice ice. 1be costs have escalated to the extent that it now takes a commitment well in excess of$250 for a 12-year-old to play hockey on a minor hockey league team when you factor in the costs of registration and ice time. While overall registrations are up, it is the younger children who are sustaining the numbers.

Older children are dropping out, most likely associated with the cosL There is an $87,000 socioeoonomic fund which has been established to offset the costs for families in need. 1be anticipated number of requests for assistance is staggering, and it is still not certain whether the requests will exceed the money available. At a time when we are concerned with rising youth crime and vandalism, was it smart to preclude children from attending sports and recreational activities in their coomumity? I do not think that is smart.

The requirements for parents using licensed child care in Manitoba to pay the first $2.40 of the tee has created a financial barrier to children who require care in order that their parents can go to wOik or to school. This combined with the capping and then the reduction of the number of child care spaces at a time when Manitoba's economy is in decline, along with fixing the number of space allocations available to subsidized and nonsubsidized families, has wreaked havoc in t

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-6-4
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 6th hansardpdf 4.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	4336b15339de63899bb22b276a4ff5885e104b7c

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