LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, 11 May, 1987. Time - 8:00 p.m. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - EDUCATION MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Baker: Committee , come to order. Mr. Minister. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, as a res ult of many of the questions raised by the Member for St. Vital, I did some review of the issues that were raised, having read the Weir Report in the inter im, and the act. I would like to read, for the record ,

section 171(1)(

i) in the

definitions, which talks abou t balanced assessment and what it means. "Balanced assessment" means: "(

i) in the case of a municipality, the equalized assessment of the municipality plus the personal property asses sment in the municipality for the year next preceding the year for which the balanced assessment is required to be determined. " Now , after reading the Weir Report and studying this extens ively, I think it's about taxes. Leave it at that. Mr. Chairperson, the Member for St. Vital , I think, was following a line of questioning.

I think, without being facetious , the fact is that before we are going to be able to avoid using balanced assessment , which does mean that not all properties are dealt with in identical ways because of the nature of assessment itself , until we mov e to some sort of provincial basis which supposedly we 're moving towards hopefully by 1990, there will be these discrepancies . However, because of the nature of school divisions and the nature in which they were formed, because of the pattern of assessment, those differences do exist.

I think, in effect, when I asked the question about how significant they are, I think the answer was that really there are small variations but they aren 't significant. They aren't major, I should say, not that they aren't significant. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Vital. MR. J. WALDING: Mr. Chairman, I certainly hope that I didn't spoil the Minister's supper; his having to do a lot of reading or studying over that time. If I did, I will apolog ize to him. He is right about the problems of assessment and the reassessment that has been in progress for a great number of years .

The fact that it's not completed yet , I think , says something about either our legislative or administrative process that we haven't been able to get it right yet. We've already had a couple of bills in the House this year of a rather hasty nature, and those might yet ot be the last ones . The Minister mentioned that we are heading towards a province-wide assessment as of 1990. That will bring some municipalities up to date but , presumably, it would leave some others three years out of date again.

That's been the situat ion all along, that we're not able to reassess all properties in any one year and keep them at a comparable level, that we have been leapfrogging one over the other , which may have been inevitable over the time, but surely there is a need to be able to put assessment on a continuing and uniform basis across the province. One of the problems that we've had is that there is a separate assessment procedure for the City of Winnipeg and for the rest of the province. That has caused innumerable problems in the past, and will probably continue to do so next.

Other provinces, I understand , have tackled this by means of some form of assessment authority or Crown corporation which has complete authority to deal with assessment on a province-wide basis, and they've been able to tackle it on that basis without getting into any local or municipal jealousies or problems in that regard. If it hasn't been considered for Manitoba, then I would recommend maybe that's something that should be looked at.

We keep going every year on this sort of an ad-hoc basis of either changing the legislation and retroactively bringing in regulations that say, well, it's okay to do what we 've been doing for the last couple of years even though it hasn 't been exactly right . But on the present system for reassessment for this year, it occurred to me, just sitting and thinking about it, that school boards set one mill rate for assessment for schools , the province sets a different mill rate for its general provincial levy, and the school boards then put on a different mill rate for each school division for its special levy.

Thus , there are three different levies for each school division and there are, at present , eight different property tax assessments. So that is 3 times 8, which is 24 different mill rates to be figured out and assessed, multiplied by the number of school boards within the City of Winnipeg , which is 12 or 13. Multiply that 12 or 13 by 24, and you get a tremendous plethora of different mill rates that are being applied on the people of Winnipeg .

A more specific question - and maybe I should be asking the Minister - is: Since there are eight different categories of property, how will these affect the two different levels for the ESL? Will there be eight different levels or are those eight to be put into the four, and if so, which ones? HON. J. STORIE: There are eight different categories to which the ESL and special levies apply; the member was correct. There is only one ESL rate, however, across categories in each division. MR. J. WALDING: It says there are eight different categories at the moment.

Are those eight categories to be put into two; in which case, is it to be divided four-and-four , or is it to be done on some other arrangement? That is not clear. HON. J. STORIE: There are still only two, in effect. The "farm and residential" and then "other," which has meant commercial. 1902

Monday, 11 May, 1987 MR. J. WALDING: Which category are golf courses taxed in, by the way? HON. J. STORIE: The "Other" catego ry. MR. J. WALDING: Then a category having to do with, say, apartment blocks, is that residential? HON. J. STORIE: That would be residential, yes. There are three different categories within a residential section. MR. J. WALDING: For example, condominiums, is that considered residential? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, it looks like it. I am told it is residential, yes. MR. J.

WALDING: For example, we passed a Bill 13 not very long ago, which made a separate allowance for condominium owners who lived in the condominiums that they own. Now, there was a distinction there for municipal purp oses. Is there to be a distinction for school purposes? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, Mr. Chai rperson, it still follows the muni cipal law and ther e are thr ee separate residential categories. I would assume that one of them is the category into which the specific abode you are talking about has been placed; so they fall into the residential catego ry, one of two. MR. J.

WALDING: So I take it then, from what you are saying, is that the thr ee residential classes, plus farms, would go into the lower 43 mill rate and every thing else into the higher 87 mill rate; would that be correct? HON. J. STORIE: That's correct, Mr. Chairperson, three residential, a farm, and an institutional. The institutional, I presume, means the exempt tax. Then you have the recreational golf courses, the institutional, commercial categories in the "Other" category . MR. J. WALDING: Which was the exempt category that you mentioned which is in with the residential area? HON. J.

STORIE: It's called "institutional," but it is the public buildings, schools, and so forth, senior citizens' residences, those kinds of things. MR. J. WALDING: I would hope that a senior citizens' residence would be a residence that would qualify for that ... HON. J. STORIE: It may mean personal care home more than senior citizen. MR. J. WALDING: The next point then, which flows from that, has to do with school divisions which are partly within the City of Winnipeg and partly outside.

Are you telling me now that the municipalities would then calculate two rates for the area which is outside the city, and a different two rates for that area which is inside the city? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, the balanced assessment is calculated separately for each part of a municipality th at is within, and th ose tha t are outside of th e bounda ries. So they're separate calculations. MR. J.

WALDING: If the boundary goes down the middle of a street, for example, the people on the one side of the street would be paying one mill rate and the people on the other side of the street would be paying four times as much, if it's outside the City of Winnipeg? HON. J. STORIE: I don't think it follows that they would be paying four times as much. MR. J. WALDING: Let's say at a mill rate four times as much ... HON. J.

STORIE: That's right, it's possible, but the dollar value, the taxes paid, would probably be very comparable because the assessment would be lower on the farm side.- (I nterjection)-That's what I meant. On the outside of Winnipeg - I mean beyond the Perimeter side - not necessarily on the farm side because there is farm property within the city. I think the member understood what I was meaning. MR. J. WALDING: I think I understood what you meant. I wasn't very happy with the choice of words there. I would like to hearken back to this court case which instructed the city to carry out its reassessment.

Is the Minister happy or satisfied that his taxation on balanced assessment for ES L purp oses is according to that particular order of the court? HON. J. STORIE: Yes. MR. J. WALDING: I'd like to ask whether that opinion is held because of advice from the civil servants in the Minister's department or whether it is based on a legal opinion, taking that into account? HON. J. STORIE: Well, I gather that - I mean many of these questions have been raised, I guess, between the Department of Municipal Affairs and the Department of Education, and I think we're on fairly safe ground in saying that there has been an

interpretation by the Muni cipa l Affairs staff - I won't say the Attorney General's Department, specifically - but the references here, I understand, are to balanced assessment. What we're doing is raising a specific sum of money, and an individual assessment of an individual property doesn't reflect what our obligation is and what the oblig ation of the municipality to the school divisions is. MR. J. WALDING: I don't accept that the staff in Municipal Affairs are any more competent than the staff in the Department of Education.

That goes one step further ... didn't Municipal Affairs obtain a legal opinion on this item, or is it just their opinion? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, I don't think practice has changed. We follow The Public Schools Act and, to my knowledge, that has not been challenged. I 1903

Monday, 11 May, 1987 understand from staff that this practice has been going on since 1967. MR. J. WALDING: It may well be that the PSA hasn't changed or the method of calculation hasn't changed; but the order from the court came down a year ago, or whenever it was, instructing the city to make very major changes and to bring it 20 years up to date, or 25, whatever the time was. That changed the whole yardstick, the whole basis that assessment was dealt with.

No w to what extent does that alter cases - and I'm asking - is it only the opinion of the civil servants that the Minister is relying on, or does he have a legal opinion on which to base that opinion? HON. J. STORIE: I can't say that I have a legal opinion before me. I think the conclusion that the member is dr awing that somehow the court challenge real ly required the city to begin reassessment doesn't impa ct on the undertakings of the department.

Basically, it was an order to the city to get its assessors out and I guess follow their obligations under The Municipal Affairs Act or The Municipal Act, or The City of Winnipeg Act, I'm sorry. It did not impact directly on - or it was not seen to by Municipal Affairs staff or the department staff - directly on our raising of funds through ESL. MR. J. WALDING: But would Municipal Affairs be looking at this situation with a view to raising money for education purposes? That is really not their primary job.

It's up to the Department of Education, surely, to be looking at the act and that court order to see how it impacts the department's abili ty to raise tax on a provincial-wide levy, not just the City of Winnipeg, but province-wide. HON. J. STORIE: I certainly could take the member's advice and have that revi ew. I would assume, because what we do really is send a bill, in effect, to the municipal ities, that if there was some inconsistency between our practice and their obligation, that they would have notified us at some point, or someone would have raised that issue.

If the member would like, or if the member is suggesting that we do that review, I'm sure that we can make some inquiries. MR. J. WALDING: I'm sure that it would be safer and probably a great deal cheaper now to look into the legalities of it and find out whether things are being done according to the act and according to the broad regulati oris than to find yourself embroiled in a court case, even up to the Supr eme Court, which comes down in a couple of years time and says you've been doing things wrong for the past four years, put them right. How you go back and unscramble the egg of four years ago is ... HON.

J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, I will take the member's good advice and undertake that review and do that forthwith. MR. J. WALDING: I thank the Minister for that. I don't want to take up too much time. I notice that members opposite are anxious to ask a few questions. I wanted to ask, perhaps, on a different topic - I'm not sure that it's particularly Financial Support but I'm sure it has something to do with it - and that is the size of school divisions.

When they were last set up, I believe it was in the mid-Sixties when Duff Roblin broug ht in his consolidated school district, which probably suited the existing situation very well as of 20 years ago. However, there are changes in population; people move and some divisions get larger and some get smaller. As you know, Mr. Chair man, we revise our own provincial boundaries for electoral purpo ses every 10 years, and it's now 20 years since school board boundaries were last redrawn.

In 19 66, there was something like four divisions with an enrolment of less than 1,5 00 and, as of a year ago, it was up to 13 school divisions. So there has been a change, and some school divisions are getting quite small. I'm sure there must be considerable cost and effects on education of school boards which are really too small to be able to effect any economies of scale at all. I'd like to ask the Minister what thought he's given to this matter and the possibility of changing school division boundaries, and how he would go about it.

Does he have any sort of idea of an optimum size for a school division, not geographic size but size of school population? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chair person, yes, that issue has been raised by many people actually over the last couple of years. As the member knows, the Board of Reference does review boundaries from time to time, but that is very much on a sporadic basis and generally relates to a request for inclusion or exclusion from a particular division and usually only a number of homeowners, property owners or whatever.

The Board of Reference, which I believe had something like 14 hearings this year, actually has made reference to the perceived need on the part of some school divisions for a general review of the boundar ies. In discussion with the Teachers' Society, they also recommended a review of the boundaries, probably with a view to rationalizing administrative services, and perhaps introducing some cost efficiency into the system. The school trustees understandably are much less enamoured with the idea of boundaries revision.

That's not to say that school divisions and individual trustees have not raised the possibility or the necessity perhaps of reviews in some cases. I intend to meet with the Board of Reference in the near future to discuss their perceptions of the existing pro blems and possible scenarios for review of boundaries. No formal steps have been taken to date, but I think it's an issue that needs to be addressed. The member is quite right. It hasn't been addressed in any substantive way since the redrafting of the boundaries as a result of consolidation.

As to the optimum size of the school division, that's difficult, very difficult, because across Canada there is a whole range. I believe the City of Edmonton operates with one school division. There are many people who have expressed concern about the size, for example, of the Winnipeg School Division which has some 32,000 students at the current time. So I don't know there's an optimal size. I guess if you were going to redraft boundaries, one of the original concerns of consolidation back in the 1904

Monday, 11 May, 1987 early Sixties was the loss of commu nity, the loss of a sense of control over one's school as you consolidated further. Many would suggest, I think, that there is more than sufficient consolidation in rural Manitoba at the present time. What would larger boundaries mean? Would that mean an increasing push to consolidate even further, so that our students are not only travelling 40 kilometres to school, but 70? How feasible is that in emotional terms for students? How effective is it as a cost-saving measure? It's a leg itim ate question and it needs to be addressed.

Again, I think that's quite true. MR. J. WALDING: I wasn't going to ask another question, Mr. Chairman, until the Minister mentioned about travel to another school, and I can't quite see how changing a boundary on paper is going to change the distance that a student would go to school. How would his residence be moved and how would his school be moved? HON. J. STORIE: It's certainly not the case that the boundaries change changes the distance to the present school. The problem is that many divisions are operating with schools that have fewer than optimal numbers of students.

What it does then, if you have one larger bounda ry with a single administration, is increase the likelihood that smaller high schools are going to be phased out in an effort to save money and provide a broader range of programs and so forth. The experience has been I think that consolidation, as we've experienced it over the last 30 or 27 years or whatever, has seen the gradual erosion of and Joss of our smaller schools.-(Interjection)-The Member for St.

Vital raises a question "Is that bad?" I think I and probably the popula tion particularly of rural Manitoba are of mixed minds about whether that is good or bad. Certainly, for the community that loses a school, it's a traum atic experience. Whether there are significant enough gains for individual students to warrant that trauma is, I guess, a question that people in rural Manitoba and school divisions with depopula tion experiences are asking them selves all the time. MR. J. WALDING: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. No further questions. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member For Robli n-Russell. MR. L. DERKACH: Thank you, Mr.

Chairman. I have a few more questions to ask on the 3.(

c) area. Jn that whole area, there is a decrease of some $75,000 in what's being allocated for the year. I'm wondering if the Minister could explain that significant drop in general terms, and then we can go to the more specific questions after that. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, there is some reduction of operating expenditures at Falcon Beach. There are, as well, reductions in the cost of supporting students from other remote points for supporting their transportati on. Generally, there are fewer and fewer students who are being maintained or suppor ted from remote and isolated situations.

I believe within that are also agreements with the Department of Indian Affairs. There are a number of students - the explanation at the bottom of page 47 in the detailed Estimates says that the number of students in remote settlements is declining and costs are decreasing. So between those decreases and some reductions that will be occurring at Falcon Beac h, th at I bel ieve accounts for the difference in this year and last year. MR. L. DERKACH: Well, with respect to Falcon Beach, Mr.

Chairman, the Minister has ascertained that the school will remain open, and I'd like to know what the specific reduction in costs are going to be for that particular school, and how much the cost savings are going to be. HON. J. STORIE: Well, I believe within that is half a staff year, as well as other cost measures, and then the other items that I measured in terms of remote students. MR. L. DERKACH: With the reduction of a half a staff year in the Falcon Beach School, is there not an additional cost to transporting some 12 students to the Hanover School Division? HON. J.

STORIE: No, the number of students hasn't changed, I don't think, from - the number of transport students hasn't changed or hasn't changed very much from one year over another; but the kindergarten, there will no longer be a separate kindergarten. It will now be a K to 3 mixed-grade classroom MR. L. DERKACH: Can the Minister indicate in that what the grant transfer payment of $1 3,800 is? Is that the half staff year? It's not a personnel cost? What is it? HON. J. STORIE: I understand that it's a transportation grant that was being provided. MR. L. DERKACH: If that's a transpor tation grant, Mr.

Chairman, can the Minister advise what has taken place? Obviously, there is either a decline in the number of students or the transpor tation system has been cut down. I'd like some clarification on that figure. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, I'm not sure whether there, in fact, were - in the notes, I have approximately 12 students. Whether, in fact, that number has changed or not, I'll get back to the member. MR. L. DERKACH: Mr. Chairman, the figure I'm referring to is the Gra nt/Transfer Payment. HON. J. STORIE: Yeah, I see that. MR. L.

DERKACH: Below tha t, you have the transpor tation payment which has been reduced from $1, 100 to $200.00. That's not the figure I'm referring to. I'm talking about the Grant/Transfer Payment. HON. J. STORIE: I recognize that. One transporta tion may be to individual parents and the other one is something else. It may be to the number of students who are being transported to Steinbach, but I'll see if 1905

Monday, 11 May, 1987 I can get some clarification for the membe r. The individual, Mr. Krawec, isn't here right now. MR. L. DERKACH: Going one line at a time in that particular area, we find that Sup plies and Services have decreased from $1 99,000 to $1 53,200.00. Again, is that with respect to the cutting down of the kindergar ten in Falcon Beach or is that again a decrease in the grants to remote schoo1s, or what is that for? Or is that as a result of declining enrolments? HON. J. STORIE: Probably all of the above. Certainly, it would have some bearing on the fact that there will be a half staff later.

I can't comment on the specifics of the rest of it, other than it relating to Supp lies and Services, as the member can see. I'm not sure whether I can give you where we're buying fewer chalk brushes. I don't know. MR. L. DERKACH: It's $40,000.00. HON. J. STORIE: Yeah. More than half of it is relating to the teacher. They eliminated the kindergarten, I guess. MR. L. DERKACH: So, is that where the teacher's salary comes in then? HON. J. STORIE: Yes. MR. L. DERKACH: Okay. Then going down a bit further, we find a fairly significant decrease.

Well first of all, in the equipment rental and maintenance, there's $15, 000, it appears for personnel, and now there is nothing. I thought that would be where the teacher contract might come in, but it's equipment rental and maintenance. What is that for? Is that a contract of some nature? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, that figure doesn't look right to me either. Can we just undertake to get back with a detailed explanation? MR. L. DERKACH: Yes. HON. J. STORIE: The staff here don't normally deal with this. MR. L. DERKACH: Would the Minister get his staff to look at this whole area?

I wouldn't mind having an explanation on each of the items and how they relate to either Falcon Beach, if that's where some of them are, or how they relate to other remote schools. The mention is that there are some declining enrolments which are causing perhaps some savings, but certainly a $75,000 saving in that particular department, I'd like to have a little explanation of. HON. J. STORIE: I agree with the member. I'm not sure that is realistic. I'm not sure the staff right now can provide an explanation for some of the changes. I will get back with an overview explanation.

The individual responsible, I understand, is in hospital righ t now, who has been reviewing this. MR. L. DERKACH: Certainly, there's somebody from staff who can get that information. 1906 HON. J. STORIE: We'll get the information. MR. L. DERKACH: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to know what other schools or school districts are being supported in that particular appropriation of remote settlements? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, I understand that any student who we would be supporting through this appr opriation would be students for whom we are paying room and board.

They would be from isolated areas, and we would be paying room and board for them. They may, in fact, be from any area of the province, unorganized territory within the province, but the only school affected would be Falcon Beach. In fact, that's the only school in the province that's oper ated by the department. MR. L.

DERKACH: Coming down to the support, for room and board for those students who have to travel to or take up residence in another school division to attend high school, and I presume that's probably the time that they leave, are the students affected by this or supported by this particular figure - those students who come from Frontier School Division - or are students from other school divisions eligible? HON. J. STORIE: Only those students who are from unorganized - they're not within Frontier School Division. MR. L.

DERKACH: What happens in a case where a student is attending school - and I'm talking about an area in the Meadow Portage area and the Rorketon area as well - where there may be a school in Meadow Portage, for example, that runs up to Grade 8 and the students would then have to travel to somewhere like Ro rketon to get to th eir high school, which is a considerable distance away. In some cases, parents decide to have their children attend a Selkirk school, or some other school, Portage, wherever.

Would those parents, if they don't live within the boundary of Frontier School Division, would they be eligible for support under this program? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, either Frontier, or they're picked up under the Department of Education or Indian Affairs. There is no one, of school age in the province, who isn't suppor ted by one of those venues. That would include a maximum of $4,000 or actual room and board; that's the provision there for anybody who can't attend at a local school. MR. L. DERKACH: Mr.

Chairman, if a student whose parents decide that instead of sending him to a school that may be 20 or 30 miles away, decide to put him into a residence in another community, do they apply to the receiving school division or their home school division for the assistance? HON. J. STORIE: Now, just so we're careful that we understand each other, if a student is already in a school division and appli es to go out to another school division, the only time that the province would provide support would be if that student was attending for a different program than was available within the school division.

That would apply in Frontier as well.

Monday, 11 May, 1987 MR. L. DERKACH: To whom do the parents of the child apply? Do they apply to the department; do they apply to their school division? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, they apply to their sending school division, the school division from which they come, for permission to attend another program. MR. L. DERKACH: If a school division denies the parents assistance, even though the program isn't available within that school division; do the parents then appeal to the Minister of Education or do they appeal to the Department of Educa tion, or what recourse do they have? HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chair person, the sending school division cannot refuse to send a student to another school division to attend a program - a program, not just a course - which is not offered in the sending school division. In fact they are also required to pay residual costs. MR. L. DERKACH: A maximum of $4,000.00? HON. J. STORIE: No, that's a separate program that's offered by the department. We're talking here about people who are alre ady within a school division boundary and identified to a school. MR. L. DERKACH: Does the school division still get the transportation grant for that child? HON. J. STORIE: Yes. MR. L.

DERKACH: So if a parent sends a child to another school division and claims that the program is not being offered in the home school division, and that's contested by that home school division, whereby they say, well we're offering it in such-and-such a semester, but it's not available at the time; can the parents then appl y to at least get the transportation grant? HON. J. STORIE: Would the member run over that scenario again? We're not just talking - a program means an entire program.

For example, transferring to another division for a business ed program, which would be a minimum of eight credits; it wouldn't simply be a matter of transferring for a semester to take an industrial course. MR. L. DERKACH: We understand that. HON. J. STORIE: Give me the scenario again. MR. L.

DERKACH: Because a program isn't being offered within a particular high school and the student has to leave that school division, he has some costs incurred because of moving and because of living away from home, the parents then apply to the school division for assistance; if they are denied by that school division, do they at least ha ve recourse to appl y for the transportation grant from the department, because every child is eligible for a transportation grant? HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chair person, I think the only way that the division can say no, in terms of sending the student is if, in the division's opinion, what's being offered is not in fact a different prog ram. If the division says no for some other grounds, then they are acting outside of the regulations. If it is within the regulations, then they are required to provide the division with the residual costs, and this receiving division also would be eligible for the per-pupil grant. MR. L. DERKACH: I think I understand the situation clear enough in that pa rticular instance. In 3. (d), the Me mber for St.

Vital asked some questions but I had some questions with regard to this

section and I'm still not clear on a few aspects of it. I'd like to perhaps even repeat the question, because I wasn't clear on the Minister's answer in the first part. Can the Minister indicate where the first figure of $8,700 ,000 came from? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chair person, that appeared this year as part of the Adjusted Vote because of the Department of Finance decision to decentralize the provision of what was the Local Government Support Program. MR. L. DERKACH: The Local Government Support Prog ram? HON. J.

STORIE: Yes, which was initiated in 19 82, I believe, by 19 82, and was designed to offset the costs, to provide support to divisions in light of additional costs that accrued to them. 19 82-83 - I stand corrected. MR. L. DERKACH: Now, can the Minister explain that in a little more detail? HON. J. STORIE: Yes. MR. L. DERKACH: Go ahead. HON. J. STORIE: The Department of Finance made the decision tha t thi s should be reflected in the Estimates of this department, the Department of Urban Affairs, the Department of Municipal Affairs and Northern Affairs. As a result, you see the figures represented here as 6.(3)(

d) and there has been an increase in that local government support from the '86- 87 year to the '87-88 year. The increase in support, again, was determined prior to the transfer. MR. L. DERKACH: Mr. Chairman, I understand that part of it. What I don't understand is what the money was allocated for, and which school divisions were in receipt of that money? HON. J. STORIE: Every school division was in receipt of - or was eligible , and in fact was provided with support under the program, based on their total payroll costs. MR. L.

DERKACH: I'd like to know what the Minister means by "eligib le" and what the money was used for. HON. J. STORIE: The money is simply an additional grant to the school divisions. 1907

Monday, 11 May, 1987 MR. L. DERKACH: But what for? HON. J. STORIE: It's a global grant; it's not attached to any one specific thing. It's a recognition that school divisions are also faced with increasing costs and this was to offset some costs th at they were incurring. MR. L. DERKACH: Mr. Chairma n, this seems to be a very strange way of doing anything. All of a sudden we have a figure here, which I guess was initiated in 1982, which is attached to, it seems, nothing; and is given to each school division on some kind of a formula. Now what is the formula?

The Minister says the money is used for increased costs; what kinds of costs are we talking about? How does a school division qualify for any portion of that money? You said every school division was in receipt of some of that money. Is it a slush fund that we just sort of have that every school division can apply for, or what is it? HON. J. STORIE: It was a recognition that school divisions were facing increased costs. It was implemented in 1982-83. Each school division was provided with basically an increased grant.

I think I mentioned earlier that in 1982-83 , when it was introduced, it was approximately 1.55 percent and that was subsequently increased in 1987-88 to 2.15 percent of payroll. MR. L. DERKACH: Mr. Chairman , this is another exampl e of the fact that the present funding formula is not work ing. If we have to start having little funds attached to our financial support programs because the initial monies allocated to school divisions are not meeting their needs ; then I question what the funding formula is doing.

Although I can 't pinpoint it, there seems to be some suspicion as to why we even have this category and what specifically it's used for. We're talking about payroll costs. Is the Minister telling me that this is the refund for the payroll tax? HON. J. STORIE: Well , I don't know if that description has ever been put on it. It certainly does reflect the fact that school divisions are facing increasing costs for a lot of different reasons.

I suppose we could have suggested that it was not in fact an offset to the health and post-secondary levy, but an increase in the additional cost school divisions face, because of the 4 percent increase in federal sales tax over the last two-and-a-half years; it simply reflects the increasing costs the school divisions face. It was initiated in' 82-83 under the program title: Local Government Support Program . To the extent that it offsets health and post-secondary levy or increased sales tax costs or other costs that the divisions face is really immaterial. It's another measure of support to school divisions.

MR. L. DERKACH: Mr. Minister, let's start calling a spade a space here. Is this, in fact , the refund for the health and education payroll tax? HON. J. STORIE: I have indicated that this program was not designed by the Department of Education. It was initiated by the Department of Finance and it was called a non-categorical support program to provide additional support for school divisions. MR. L. DERKACH: I think we've gotten to the bottom of it. We know what that figure is for now.

Now that he's compensating school divisions for provincial sales tax or a payro ll tax , is the Minister going to do the same for the federal tax? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson , I don't think that's a fair question to ask myself. Perhaps Mr. Wilson would be the more appropriate person to ask. MR. L. DERKACH: I think you're the Minister of Education. HON. J. STORIE: I'm not the Minister responsible for federal sales tax. MR. L. DERKACH: If I could leave this area; I think we've ascertained what this blank cheque is for now and we'll leave that for the moment ... HON. J.

STORIE: It's certainly not a blank cheque . MR. L. DERKACH: . as is the words used by the member across the table here , who seems to be muttering under his nose. Mr. Chairman, I'd like to move to the area of low incidence funding and special needs funding if I could for a few minutes. MR. CHAIRMAN: Are we done with 3 or do you want to come back to it? MR. L. DERKACH: It's all in the same . MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay. Special Needs - do you have a question? The Member for Roblin-Russell. MR. L. DERKACH: In the Special Needs category , there was an increase in funding of some $1.4 million.

Of that increase of $1.4 million, all of it went to low incidence funding. I'd like to ask the Minister whether the special needs area is now totally under the title of the low incidence category? 1908 HON. J. STORIE: No, Mr. Chairperson, there are a number of other categorical grants that are used to support the efforts of school divisions in meeting the special needs of kids. There are high incidence grants , there are clinician grants available to school divisions to employ specialists.

There are support grants to allow or encourage support to school divisions in the hiring of coordinators, special ed coordinators, etc. MR. L. DERKACH: According to the information received from the Minister's Office, it indicated in the Special Needs Support area , the figure was $1.4 million and this figure - again the 1.4 million - pertained to low incidence funding; does that mean that in the other areas, the special needs areas, there was no increase in funding?

Monday, 11 May, 1987 HON. J. STORIE: Yes, Mr. Chai rperson, I believe that in all of the other categorical grant areas, there was no increase in 19 87-88. I think that's correct; I think the only categ orica l gr ant incr eases were in transportation and inner-city education. MR. L. DERKACH: Does this mean that increased costs in the special needs area would have to come out of the divisions' own pockets, or does it come out of the global? HON. J. STORIE: Well, to the extent that there were increases on a per pupil basis, the low incidence funding is in addition to regular funding on a per-pupil basis.

So while there was a minimum increase for both block and equalization, that's reflected as well for those students. Certainly school divisions have made the case for increase in the low incidence grants and while we were able to say that we were simply phasing in - and this was the first full year for the low incidence Ill grants - that may take some of the burden off of some school divisions. I think it's still fair to say that the school division's experience with Special Needs generally has been that they're very expensive programs.

Certainly there are some divisions out there who would like, perhaps need, additional support for their Special Needs activities. Ha ving said that, some divisions have responded in different ways; some with more expensive programming, some with less. MR. L. DERKACH: I'll just leave the Special Needs alone for a minute and zero in on the low incidence pr og rams. This year th ere was a new prog ram implemented in the low incidence area and that was the low incidence Ill.

Now we have the guidelines for the low incidence I and low incidence II , in terms of what's important, is going to be allocated in each of those areas. Can the Mi nister indicate the support in the low incidence Ill category? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I believe it's $1 3,2 00 per student identified as low incidence Ill. MR. L. DERKACH: Can I just repeat that? That's $1 3,200 for each low incidence Ill child. HON. J. STORIE: Yes. MR. L. DERKACH: Does the school division determine the delineation between a low incidence II and a low incidence Ill, or is that done by department personnel? HON. J.

STORIE: Yes, Mr . Chai rperson, the identification of low incidence Ill is done in very much a similar way as low incidence II, and, that is, an app lication is made by school divisions; tho se applications are reviewed by staff in the Child Care - CCDSP - Child Ca re and Deve lop ment Sup port Services; and some final determination is made about the eligibility for that particular student and funding is on that basis. MR. L.

DERKACH: Is the $1. 4 million increase then specifically related to the increased costs that this department will incur because of the low incidence Ill, or are we going to be seeing a decrease in the number of students in low incidence II and an increase in low incidence Ill, to the new category? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, there will be some shifting but low incidence Ill is severely multiply handicapped. I've got more statistics than any one person needs to have in front of me. It tells me that some 84.5 students have been identified in ter ms of 19 87-88 year as low incidence Ill.

In most divisions, there is one or two students identified as such, so it's not going to make a dramatic impact on the number of low incidence II students that are found - we'r e talking about severely multipl y handicapped. But obviously, to the extent that there is movement, it's from low incidence II, or it's students moving in, additions to the system. MR. L. DERKACH: Mr.

Chairman, having been involved in a school division where we had both categories and now this third catego ry, I'm sure one of the areas of concern is that, although the grants are welcomed in those areas, certainly the increased costs from year to year aren't totally covered or reflected in the grant. I'm wondering if the Minister has perhaps understated the amount of funding required and the appropriation in this area, in accordance to what the experiences have been in the past, because certainly this is a very expensive area. HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chairp erson, I believe that the numbers that have been provided to us, in essence, by the divisions is fairly accurate. There may be some fluctuation based on the assessments that are going on and that occurs over the year; but certainly, between now and September , I guess those numbers could change marginall y, one way or the other, but it's a relatively accurate figure. MR. L. DERKACH: Mr. Chairman, certainly the cost of a specialized teacher in that area, in each of those categories and the experiences that divisions have had is not totally covered by the grant that's available.

School divisions have to put in a substantial amount of money, which again, is the reflection of special levy. I'm wondering whether the depar tment has considered - I know that we have to watch our budget dollars, but this is an area where there is some concern and increased costs are prevalent - and I'm wondering whether there's been any consideration to increasing the levels in the two categories. I don't know anything about the third category; in fact, that sounds like it's a pretty generous level, even though it is a one-to-one relationship in that category, I believe. HON. J.

STORIE: Well, the low incidence Ill depends on what part of the province you live in, in fact whether that's generous. MR. L. DERKACH: Yes, that's right. HON. J. STORIE: I know that northern divisions find, because of the wage rates, generally, in northern communities and mining communities, particularl y, that 1909

Monday, 11 May, 1987 it's difficult for them to provide aids for these multi­ handicapped children at the level of assistance as provided for low incidence Ill. Some of the others, because of the ability to work more than one on one, although the grant is certainly significantly less in dollar te rms because of their ability to integrate in some instance s and to provide for more students per class, in effect , in many cases, they 're coming close to offsetting the costs through the grants. But for many divisions, it is an additional burden. It's also the assumption of a new responsibility.

For many divisions, the moving into, particularly low incidence II and 111, in a consistent way, is a new experience. MR. L. DERKACH: I guess that's my point, in that low incidence II category, and I said I'm not familiar with low incidence Ill. The low incidence II category I think is the expensive area, and certainly school divisions have found that, yes, although there is grant available for that category, because there are limitations as to what a school division can do.

There are restrictions in terms of how many students they can have per teacher and what teacher aides are required, they 're finding that this, on a per student basis, is a very, very expensive program. That's why I'm wondering if the Minister and his department have considered an increase in that area, in that approp riation , because tha t, as I understand, has been constant now for at least three years. HON. J. STORIE : Yes, Mr. Chairperson, it is one of the areas that has been reviewed in terms of increasing the level of support.

It's certainly one of the areas where I have been encouraged to increase the level of support. I guess it's been now four years since there has been any change in the level of low incidence support. It 's pro bably time that was reviewed very closely. MR. L. DERKACH: Are we then hearing a commitment from the Minister that this in fact will be looked at during this curren t year so that, beginning September, school di visio ns can look forward to a better arra ngement? HON. J. STORIE: Well, I can certainly give the member a commitment to review it. In fact, it's being reviewed right now.

Aga in, the member has referenced and I think everyone around this committee acknowledges that there are only so many dollars to be spread around. This year, some $26.9 million, and some decisions have to be made along the way about which of those areas receive priority. It may in fact be turned for low incidence special needs considerations to get priority next year. MR. L. DERKACH: If I may be critical of the Minister HON. J. STORIE: Please do, yes. MR. L. DERKACH : Mr.

Chairman, one of the areas that we find a significant shortfall in terms of support to school divisions is in this area of special needs, second languages. The areas where school divisions are told that you will offer these programs and you will offer them because the department is going to fund these programs, but none of these programs are funded to a 100 percent level and, depending on the school division, some school divisions may be forced with fairly significant costs because of distance .

As a matter of fact, in cases where we have rural students , we even have to provide special bus transportation for those children to school, which means you have to have specially equipped vehicles , and again there isn't any special funding from the department for those programs in excess of what we see here. I think this is an area that has to be addressed in the future so that, if school divisions are to continue to offer those programs to those childr en, which I feel are important , it's important that those children remain in a community that their parents live in and remain as part of that community.

I feel that , even though it's expensive, it is the responsibility of the department to perhaps improve the level of funding that is given to those school divisions now so that not such a great burden is placed on the local taxpayer and that a greater amount of the burden can be shared throughout our society. I guess the only example I can give is that when we take a look at the English as a second language program, here again we find a program that school divisions are obliged to offer , but yet the support falls far short of what is needed when we finally tabulate the actual costs.

You know, there are school divisions right through this province that have to offer those programs. We're finding that although $660 may seem like an adequate amount , we have to understand that you don't have a whole classroom of students who can take that program. You may find that there are two or three children who have to be given the specialized attention of one individual, then the ratio becomes fairly high and expensive .

So I would like to see the Minister pay some special attention to this area , the entire area, and we can 't expect the department to come 100 percent of the way in one shot, but I think we've left this area alive for far too long and there is a need for some catch up . When we talk about the special needs area, I think it's time that we started looking at the gifted child. Again, when we talk about special needs children, these are special needs children.

They are perhaps at the other end of the spectrum and we can say, well , we're providing an adequate education or a good level of education for the average child . Throughout our province, we do have exceptional children who excel and who perhaps need to be challenged more and there needs to be some incentive for school divisions to provide programming and, perhaps even more importantly, development of programming on the part of the department for children who have exceptional talents and qualities and abilities. HON. J.

STORIE: I agree with the member in terms of the exceptional costs that school divisions are faced with as a result of special needs children . The member makes the point and unfortunately it's true, when we talk about special needs in 1987, we generally refer to those with disabilit ies rather than abilities, or we refer to their disabilities rather than abilities. I think some school divisions - most school divisions now - have recognized the need to provide programming for gifted 1910

Monday, 11 May, 1987 and talented students and fortunately, I guess, because of the nature of their abilities, it is somewhat easier to provide those experiences. It can be done without the necessity of having specialized equipment and the same level of supervision that' s required for those with different abilitie s and some disabilities. I guess in my discussions with school divisions over the last year, this issue has been raised more often than any other issue and it unfortunately boils down to a question of how do you allocate your resources.

I guess because of the limitations of many of our current special needs students, they had tended to receive and seem to warrant more attention and more effort than other students. I think ind ividual teachers and administrators will suggest that they have attempted within their resources to provide opportunit ies for gifted students to excel in one way or another in the classroom, but it certainly hasn't been a concerted effort on the part of schools or the division or the province.

Certainly, the Curriculum Department has developed, worked on curriculum and enrichment materials for a variety of different curriculum. I'm sure that's being used by students in an integr ated way in the classroom for the benefit of gifted students, but the member is quite right that more could be done. MR. L. DERKACH: Mr. Minister, I'd like to ask a couple of questions on the area of support for day care. Again, I don't find a specific figure in any of the material that we have before us here as to what the Minister's intentions are with regard to support in this area. HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chairperson, I think the member knows that the support provided to day cares through the department comes by way of capital only; that in 198 6-87, I believe, some $1.2 million was allocated for capital construction related to day cares, so that is reflected in the capital side.

It 's a separate allocation, distinct from the capital allocation related to public schools construction, and the department has made it very clear and we have worked very closely with the Department of Community Services to make it clear that the ongoing costs, establishment costs, etc., of the day care are the responsibility of Community Services. MR. L. DERKACH: Can the Minister indicate what appropriation that $1. 2 million is under? HON. J. STORIE: I'm told that it's XV I 8.(b )(2). MR. L. DERKACH: Can we then leave that perhaps till that appropriation is discussed, rather than try to HON. J.

STORIE: Good suggestion . MR. L. DERKACH: . . . discuss it now? We have some other questions in that area that we'd like to address, but perhaps we can leave it until next time. If I can ask the Minister now with regard to the commitment of $5 million - or I think that was the figure that he used - to a fund that would be administered jointly by school boards and teachers in the event that teachers accepted a zero percent increase in salaries. Can the Minister tell me where one can find that in the appropriations here? HON. J. STORIE: XVI 3.(

a) Mr. Chairperson. MR. L. DERKACH: Mr. Chairman, can I ask the Minister what his intentions are in terms of this $5 million? Is that the correct figure, to begin with? HON. J. STORIE: Educational Resource Fund. MR. L. DERKACH: $5 million resource fund - if school divisions do not settle for a zero percent increase in salary? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, first, the divisions were not asked to settle. I guess it was a question of negotiations. The $5 million obviously would be not expended and would in fact by encumbered by the Department of Finance, I presume, come next March 31s t. MR. L.

DERKACH: In his news release, the Minister indicated that the fund may be drawn upon by school boards at negotiated agreements with local teachers which do not include salary increases. 1911 We know very well that if one school division in this province accepts an increase in salary, that's probably going to be the norm for the entire province. What happens to the fund should all school divisions settle for some kind of a salary increase? HON. J.

STORIE: I think I've indicated that any surplus from any government department that is not expended on the basis of the criteria that are established for the program, lapses from year to year; and if this fund is not used, then it would lapse unless sometime during the year a decision was made to utilize it in some other way. I indicated to the teachers and to the trustees when I met with them to discuss this fund sometime ago, prior to the announcement of the proposal, that it was my intention to make the proposal, in effect, to save money over the long term by encouraging negotiations on non-salary items.

It would be counter-productive and I th ink inappropriate to spend that fund in some other way, because what you would be doing is building on to the base, perhaps, of a system that is already very expensive and a system on which even fairly small increases, percentage increases, in terms of costs reflect significant dollars. MR. L. DERKACH: Mr. Chairman, if we approve the Estimates, we're giving the Minister authority to spend the $5 millio n; and if school divisions in fact settle for a salary increase over and above zero percent, that means the Minister has authori ty to spend that $5 million.

If he doesn't spend it because no division qualifies for it under the rules that he set out in his press release, does tha t mean that that fund is just going to sit there and be added to next year and the Minister will continue to add to it until it becomes attractive enough for teachers not to take an increase?

Monday, 11 May, 1987 HON. J. STORIE: No, it is funds that will lapse at the end of the year. It is a fund or it is money in the appropriation of the department that is not expended and it will lapse, like any other fund, that are not appropriate. MR. l. DERKACH: So the money then cannot be spent for any other expenditure or requirement. HON. J. STORIE: Cert ainly not without Cabinet authorization or an Order-in-Council to do so. MR. l. DERKACH: That's the question. Mr.

Minister, are you saying that should the divisions accept something greater than zero percent, there is a possi bili ty that the funds which are under the Ed ucati onal Resource Fund could be spent, with Ca bine t appr oval, for other pu rposes within th e department's jurisdiction? HON. J. STORIE: Well, Mr. Chairperson, any funds within the department, this department or any other department, could be appropria ted for other uses. I have indicated what the use of this particular fund is for. I've indicated to the teachers and to the trustees what the fund is for.

I can say that, to date, I have no other plans for this, and I'v e indicated that the purpose of establishing it was to create an incentive to have the trustees and teachers bargain for a change in good faith on non-salary items. This was hopefully an incentive to do that. If it hasn't turned out that way - I indicated the first time I discussed this with them that this was going to require their cooperation. This was not to force anyone. It was not an edict on which teachers must take zero, or school boards must negotiate on that basis. They were free to bargain normally if they wished.

Some of them did, some of them didn't. The guidelines for tapping into the fund, I think, were quite clear. MR. l. DERKACH: Mr. Minister, can you tell us that you will not expend these monies if school divisions will settle for something greater than zero percent? HON. J. STORIE: I can tell the honourable member that I will not be providing the funds to the school divisions in the way that was suggested in the proposal, unless the conditions that were set down are met. MR. l. DERKACH: If I can comment on the whole objective of the Minister, Mr.

Chairman, when we have government employees who are slated to take increases in salary and the Minister singles teachers out in our economy as a working grou p in our society to take zero percent by offering a carrot to them, which is miniscule in terms of their personal benefits, I don't understand the rationale behind it to begin with. Because if this is the objective of this department, then I would hope that this Minister would have taken his idea to Cabinet, whereby other departments would have adopted a similar proposal.

That similar proposal could have been made to other government sectors so that we would have an equal application of that particular objective. I think this does nothing but alienate teachers. The other thing it does, Mr. Chairman, is it causes a stressful situation between local school boards and teachers within a community. Perhaps that's not such a bad thing in a large centre, such as Winnipeg or Brandon.

But certainly, when we get into the smaller communities and in an economy like we've got where the rural farmers or the farmers in our province are under considerable stress, we find the situation even worsens. Teachers find it very uncomfortable to live in a community where they're asked to take zero percent, and a little carrot is offered in front of their noses for a little fund that might be administered jointly by them and the school board. That is not incentive enough for them to take zero percent, because they have families to support as well.

Ther e are expectat ions of them with regard to commu nity obl igations. They are part of small communities, and many of them are finding it more and more difficult to cope with the kinds of comments that are made by taxpayers who are under stress and say, well look, if the government is asking you to take zero percent, they're offering you a nice package and you're refusing, you're ignoring it.

I think it's a cheap political shot by the Minister, and I don't think he should repeat that kind of action in the interest of relationships in small communities especially, and I'm not sure what the situation in the city is like - end of comment. HON. J. STORIE: I suppose the member is entitled to his view. I can assure that it was not intended as a cheap polit ical shot. I don't think someone would intentionally set out to alienate a group that he'd been associated with for most of his working life. I believe that there were several reasons for making the proposal.

No. 1, I don't agree with the member that other members involved directly or indirectly with government have not made a sacrifice. The fact is that the MGE A signed an agreement in which all of their members had taken a zero for a full year, in most cases more than a full year. Some 30,000 people, working directly or indirectly with the government, had taken zero. MR. L. DERKACH: When? HON. J. STORIE: When? In 19 85. But the fact is that they signed a three-year agreement and not a one-year agreement. MR. l. DERKACH: What was the trade-off? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, there were trade-offs, and I'm getting to that.

The fact is that I did not - certainly if I had wanted to set up a situation in which teachers were singled out for unfair treatment, if I had wanted to set up a situation where the teachers would be the loser by a process, I certainly could have devised one. The Min isters of Education in Al berta and Saskatchewan have had no trouble whatsoever devising a system to penalize teachers. The Minister of Education in Saskatchewan has said, the teachers take zero for two years, like it or not. The Minister of Education in Quebec said, take 20 percent less, like it or not.

The fact of the matter is that teachers form the single­ largest salary cost in the province, some $560 million. Even small increases have a long-term effect on the base costs of education. 1912

Monday, 11 May, 1987 So I didn't do this without thinking. I didn't set up a system whereby teachers had to lose. There are other gains to be had in negotiating a zero percent increase, and those relate to contract language. I have bargained for the teachers. I know how contracts are constructed. I know that there are benefits for teachers to be had in dealing with non-salary items. whether it's sabbaticals or grie vance procedures or leave provisions or leave for MTS business provisions. There are many, many different areas, non-salary areas where teachers can make gains that are imp ortant to teachers.

I recognize and I think the teachers and school boards recogn ize that, if for whatever reasons they could not accommodate each other around the bargaining table, there was in the final analysis an out for both of them, arbitration, which they have both used too frequently in the past. I think the Member for Robli n-Russell at one time perhaps bargained for teachers as well. MR. L. DERKACH: The same time you did. HON. J. STORIE: Probably about the same time I did. He knows as well that the current system of bargaining is quite rigid.

The fact is that local teachers' associations and local school boards are influenced, to a great degree, by edicts that come down from the provincial executive, the provincial office of either of th ose associations. In fact, over the last probably seven years, certainly the last five years, settlements generally are precip itated by an arbitration award or a reasonable settlement in some other division. After that, all other div isions fall in line. Th ere ha ve been very few innovations in terms of the collective-agreement language in the last few years. My hope was that this might stimulate some discussion.

The member raised the concern that teachers have always had about being perceived as too well paid in the community and certainly in rural communities. That has always been a concern. I was hoping that this would provide both sides with an out. I said that it would requir e cooperation to begin with, and I am not disappointed personally or otherwise that it hasn't succeeded. The fact that it didn't succeed, I think, is going to be reflected. I should withhold my comments on whether there will be some measure of success because that's not determined yet.

But if it doesn't succeed, that lack of success will be reflected in the costs that we all pay for education into the future. No one said taking a zero percent increase isn't a sacrifice; it is a sacrifice. It's a sacrifice that you've paid already. It's a sacrifice that many other Manitobans have paid, and it does represent significant savings over the long term.

You were referencing my press release of Dec ember, and the fact is that accepting a zero percent increase, negotiating a zero percent increase would represent something like $10 0 million over five years, $10 0 million that I'm sure the school divisions, department could find ways of contri buting to th e gr owth and the development of education in a different way. I don't think that my proposal has done any dama ge, substantial or otherwise, to the collective bargaining system or to the relati onship between boards and teachers. It may in fact have created some thought about the process itself. MR. L.

DERKACH: Mr. Chairman, I'm not here .to defend the teachers in our province in terms of their negotiating rights. That's not my responsibility here, but I think it's a matter of principle that I argue this from, and that is that the Minister makes reference to being able to save $1 00 million by teachers taking zero percent over a period of five years. I think that, if our total government were to take a look at their spending, we could save far, far more than $10 0 million in five years. It's just a matter of prior ity.

The fact still is that teachers were singled out this year as that part of society that should be asked to take zero percent, because this is an area where we could realize some savings. I'm not suggesting the teachers should get exorbitant increases either, but I think the method that it was done in was certainly hasty and, in my view, inappropria te.

I wonder if a school division that cannot settle with the Teachers' Society through the normal negotiating process goes to arbitration and the arbitration then results in an increase in salary, does that school division and that association still qualify then for the Educational Resource Fund, because the increase in salary in fact has not been negotiated? It's been handed down by a third party. HON. J. STORIE: No, Mr. Chairperson, because that would undermine the other premise for the proposal, and that was that settlements were to be negotiated, not imposed.

What I wanted to happen and what I indicated to the parties I wanted to happen was for them to sit down and negotiate on non-salary items and come to some agreement in terms of the benefits package that would be in effect for the 19 87 year. MR. L. DERKACH: Mr. Chairman, does the Minister not see the fact that he even suggested zero percent as an infringement on bargaining rights on the part of the teachers, whereby now he has set a tone or sent a message even to the arbitration boards as to what he as Mi nister expects for teachers' salary settlements in the province? HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chairperson, I certainly did give that some thought, and I don't believe that the proposal is going to affect arbitration awards to any significant degree, any more than would a pronouncement that was made by the Minister of Education in Alberta that they were going to cut education funding by 3 percent. The fact is that the department sends signals to divisions and to teachers every year by making an announcement about the level of provincial support. I've stated my intention in terms of the announcement quite clearly, and I suppose everybody is entitled to their view about its appropria teness.

I'm not making any apology for it. MR. L. DERKACH: I realize that it's very difficult for a Minister to say I was wrong, especially when he's made a press release and all the hullabaloo about it and giving the impression that he was going to be the man who saves the taxpayers a lot of dollars by his announcement. But can I ask the Minister if, after December 31 when this agreement or this intention lapses, whether the Minister will again be going to Cabinet for a similar kind of proposal for the following year? 1913

Monday, 11 May, 1987 HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, I guess that would be in the realm of speculation at this point. I had indicated to the teachers that my intent ion was not to ask them to do this on a continual basis. Obviously , the Membe r for Roblin-Russell was suggesting in his earlie r remarks that the province should be considering some sort of wage policy on a provincial basis and concerned about singling out teachers. I don 't feel I've done that. I think the province has dealt with its oth er employees in a fairly reponsible way, and they have made their contributions in one way or another.

Obviously, we're into another set of negotiations for many, if not most, of the employees of the government as wel l. I'm sure negotiations will be tough . So I suppose I'm still convinced that we have to address the growing costs of education and certainly , despite the proposal, I don't think it's cooled my sympathy and, I hope, relationship with either the school trustees or the teachers in terms of genuinely looking for answers in many different areas, including ways of controlling education costs. I didn't set out to be a saviour for the taxpayer.

I'm one who happens to believe that Manitobans are getting a pretty good deal for their tax dollar in education. I think Manitobans want it that way. That doesn't mean we can't be forward thinking and saying, how are we going to control the growing costs of education? I have said many times, publicly and otherwise , that teachers deserve to be well paid; they need to be well paid. There are too many examples of countries who have negl ected to do that, and the United States may be one of them.

The latest national commissions undertaken in the United States suggest tha t the United States should raise its teachers ' salaries by 75 percent. I don't think we want to get in that kind of position. The fact of the matter is that teachers have done quite well in comparison with other working people in the province over the last 20 years. The health care workers who took zero in 1985 were earning - (Interjection}- Well, the fact is that there was no increase on salary . That was the point.

There are potentials for trade-off in these discussions as well, depending on the willingness of school boards and teachers to make proposals and sit down and discuss them. So there was certainly lots of room for trade-off. MR. L. DERKACH : Mr. Chairman, I don't want to prolong the discussion on this particular topic, because it's really not getting us anywhere. I do want to make the point that, yes, there were some considerations by othe r sectors in 1984 and 1985 , but there were other trade -offs which were of personal benefit to those indi vid uals which was not evide nt in this proposal to the teachers.

What I'm saying is that if the Minister in the future consider s a scheme whereby he wishes to have teachers in our province halt the increa ses that they 've been getting, then I suggest that he go to Cabinet and discuss how other sectors can also be considered for the same kind of trea tment so that all of a sudden we don't have school boards, for example, sort of taking a news release like this and saying, well , now we're going to negotiate from the perspective that even the Minister is supporting us in a zero percent increase for teachers.

Once again, I'm not trying to be here to negotiate on behalf of the teachers; I'm simp ly saying there has to be a more equ itable way and a more fair way of approach ing the situation. Although the Minister says, well, I don't need to make apologies - I don't expect him to make apolog ies for his statement .

I simply want him to understand that there are those of us who think th at the announcement was premature in the way it was made and there wasn't a significant amount of thought given to it in that , again, teachers were singled out and that did cause some very stressful situations in our small rural communities . Perhaps teachers should have taken a zero percent, but let the bargaining process determine that. Let's not sta rt interf ering in a bargainin g process which has been set up and has been honoured for a long time. That 's my final comment on that particular topic, Mr. Chairman. HON. J.

STORIE: Well, I suppose I must agree with some of what the member has said. If would be nice if the bargaining process would take place. I th ink the member knows that there has not been a zero percent salary increase negotiated or arbitrated and it's unlikely that there ever would be. Arbitration was not set up to establish landmarks in negotiations from any perspective. Whether in fact there is some other way to infl uence a control without establishing a mechanism for the province to be at the bargaining tab le is doubtful.

The Educational Resource Fund , although a small carrot, is one of the few ways in which the province can influ ence other benefits to teachers . As you know , as the member knows , the divisions negotiate on all of the other items that are in their collective agreement, and we have no access, nor are we empowered in any way to take on undertakings that may be of significant interest to teachers , given that they all exist within individual collective agreements. MR. L. DERKACH: If I could move to ano ther area, Mr.

Chairman , within the funding formul a, there is no provision made for Indian bands that opt out of agreements with school divisions. I know that the former Minister, in one particular instance , did make prov isions for a special grant to a school division where revenue was lost because an Indian band opted out. Can the Minister indicate whether there are, in the province, at the present time, any more Indian bands who have agreements with school divisions where those bands may, in fact, be opting out in the next year or so? HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chairperson, in terms of the special provisions for opted-out Indian bands, those provisions are still in existence. I believe it's a categorical grant. MR. L. DERKACH: It's a special grant. HON. J. STORIE: Yes, it's a categorical grant and it's defined in a certain way. I don't believe that there are any new developments that would increase our costs where Indian bands have opted out. There are agreements where there has been joint funding, for example, of a capital facility where 1914

Monday, 11 May, 1987 the agreements had to be concluded, but I don't think there are any new circumstances. Only Dauphin is affected by that, a categorical grant. MR. L. DERKACH: I know a plea has been made by those school divisions that when a band opts out, the loss of revenue isn't felt till the following year, and although there's a one-time shot by the department to make up for that loss in the ensuing year, what happens is that loss is never recouped because the loss of revenue is there from year to year and you can't reduce your expenses by the amount of monies that you lose.

I think that's an accepted thing by all parties that have discussed the issue. My question is: Within the funding formula, is there provision for those school divisions who have lost Indian band contracts in the last few years to help them recoup some of the losses? HON. J. STORIE: It's still one year only provisions. MR. L.

DERKACH: Again I come back to the funding formula and say, well, again that school division is impacted upon in the second and third year, because although they receive that one block grant for that one year, all of a sudden the revenue isn't there and they experience again a loss in expenditures, but also more important ly, a loss in revenue, and the two can't be offset.

I know this problem is going to come to an end, but I know there are a couple of school divisions out there - at least two and maybe more - that are still suffering the consequences of that and have had to bite the bullet either by massive special mill increases or trying to take monies from nominal surplus. HON. J. STORIE: I'm reminded that there are also provisions in the Government Support to Education Program for looking after declining enrolment, and that maybe we should be looking at rolling that in somehow. MR. L. DERKACH: It hasn't been done to date. HON. J.

STORIE: No, I acknowledge that, but we may have to look at it. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Fort Garr y. MR. C. BIRT: Mr. Chairman, as the hour is almost 10, I would suggest that we rise, but I just have a couple of questions for clarification. When the Minister earlier this afternoon gave me Mr. Buhr's comments on the questions relating to the Teachers' Retirement Allowance Fund Board, there's just one area that wasn't explained.

At the bottom of page 3 in the appendix, it says, "Investments and Subsid iary" - that's No. 2 - "The Teachers Retirement Resources Investment Corporation of Manitoba, Inc., a wholly-owned subsidiary of the fund ... " I'm wondering if he could provide me with an explanation as to why did they create a corporation. Was it to limit liabil ity; was it for tax pur poses - some explanation why a fund would create its own company to deal with the question of resources, and that ties in with all the other questions. It was the only thing that was missing.

Now if it's going to take too much time, maybe he could give me a phone call. I'd just like some explanation Of it. HON. J. STORIE: Oka y. MR. C. BIRT: The other point, Mr. Minister, is I believe you said the provincial levy, in response to questions by the Mem ber for St. Vital, it's a constant for home and rural at about 43.7 mills for about the last five years. I'm wondering, in the information that you provided, can you take this back, going - that would take it back to I guess abou t'82, whenever that constant thing is - so that we could see the columns? So you would have'82,'8 3,'8 4,'85, '86, '87.

Could that be done just for the special levy, not for the constant? We could then get a better picture as to the increase in the mill rates in the various school divisions. HON. J. STORIE: We'll provide that. MR. C. BIRT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Vital. MR. J. WALDING: I have one question, Mr. Chairman. There is a footnote on the bottom of page 59 of this Supplementary Information indicating that one clinician position is to be eliminated. We're going from 91 to 90. Does this indicate that the clinicians are more efficient or that we have less children using their services? HON.

J. STORIE: I can only respond by suggesting that it may be because of the declining enrolment in one of the regions that it was deemed possible to - I presume this one . . . It may in fact have been a vacant SY, and because of the ability to redistribute the workload, that it was deemed possible to eliminate one position. MR. J. WALDING: Can I ask for some more specific information as to which part of the province or which school division, and what was that clinician responsible for? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, we can certainly undertake to do that. MR. J.

WALDING: If there is with it some rationale other than a guess as to why we are eliminating this position, I would certainly appreciate that. HON. J. STORIE: I will undertake to get the member the background for that. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hour now being ten o'clock, committee rise. SUPPLY - COMMUNIT Y SERVICES MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: Committee, please come to order . 1915

Monday, 11 May, 1987 We are considering Item No . 1.(e)

(1) Financi al Services, Salaries; 1.(e)

(2) Othe r Expenditures - the Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman . Just before we adjourned, the Member for St. Norbert was asking to see whether we could have copies of the internal audit. There 's a specific reason , Mr. Chairman, why we are asking for copies of the internal audit. That is so that we could be informed at an early time, to see whether there was anything going wrong within the finances of the various agencies that we have, so that we could all zero in on that particular problem.

The Minister made the statement that this would take reams of paper in order for us to get a copy of this . Mr. Chairman, I believe that if we had one copy, we would be very pleased if we could have one copy of the internal audit so that we could take a look at what is happening. We would be very pleased, and I don 't think that the extra cost of these reams of paper would be wasted at all. So I wonder if the Minister might reconsider the statement that she made that this would require reams of paper. Maybe she is going to reconsider her stand on giving us a copy of the internal audit. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister . HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Chairman , I think I should correct the member opposite. I don't think I referred at all to reams of paper. I referred to the process whereby how the internal audit works. It basically ensures compliance with all government management policies within the department. The Provincial Auditor is the person who does an external check to see whether the department is indeed complying . I think that source of information is available to the member opposite. The internal audit is again looking at the financial compliance . It is not the program audit.

The process by which the members opposite can review the programs of the department are by the annual reports, the budget , the supplementary information , and indeed this very session where question and answer and information can be provided. So I think again, with that correction, that I stand by the comment I made earlier. MR. A. BROWN: I wonder if the Minister could comment on that the Child and Family Serv ice agencies are saying that they will be forming an association to develop a new funding formula for the agencie s. This was reported in the press of March 20, 1987, where Mr.

Schellenberg said that the association is working with the province to develop a new funding formula for agencies . Right now, they bill the government on a monthly basis for child care , but getting block funding on an annual basis would give the agencies more flexibility so that they could determine where the money ought to go. So these agencies are lobbying the Department of Community Services at the present time to assist social workers and agencies on more than just caseload . I wonder if the Minister has any comment? Is she considering giving block funding to the agencies? HON. M. SMITH: Mr.

Chair , at the risk of repetition and being out of order in terms of the

section that we're dealing with, I will answer the question and I did refer to it earlier . We enco uraged the formation of that association and we're happy to see it occur. One of the reasons that we are very supportive of community boards is that we do value and respect their role in being close to the community , identifying the needs and giving us information about those needs .

With reg ard to their funding, I think I said earlier today and I said it last year and said it publicly on several occasions and to the executive directors and presidents, we want to move to the point where they have the global funding base. That is where they get a total sum of money and then manage it within their particular region, priorizing the needs and flowing the money in the most cost-effective way available to them.

But I also said, and I think the agencies will agree, that the reason we did not move to that format when they were first formed was that the pattern of experie nce prior to the regionalization was not the best basis on which to come to the assessment of need, and the experience of the last two years has borne that out. The pattern of need, the caseloads, the types of service delivery that are evolving in each agency are significantly different . The total need level has in fact gone up significantly, which we attribute to the agencies being more accessible and offering a wider variety of services.

Some of their funding they get in a block grant and another amount they can access, the child maintenance portion, by billing the Provincial Government and it, in a sense , has been open-ended. Now we would like to be at that point where that too would be, in a sense , capped and year by year the agencies would have the money and they could then manage their budgets. But it 's provided a very healthy and valuable safety valve in this growth period. We have told the agencies that we are willing to move to global funding. At first we said, as soon as they could come to an agreed-on approach .

We have since added to that our willingness to move them one or two at a time . They don 't all have to move in lockstep. So they are actively reviewing that option at the moment, and we have agreed with them that to prolong the current method of funding indefinitely, in a sense seems to give a reward or an incentive , if you like , to go for the more costly interventionist type of care rather than the supportive and preventive care in the community.

But I think they also would agree with us that to have moved prematurely and cut off the funding amount prematurely would have left them in a very difficult situ ation . So in short , we do agree with that move. We have a process for achieving it , and we look forward to a significant step forward durin g this year. MR. A. BROWN: Mr. Chairman , four of the agencies in Winnipeg are running substantial deficits again this year.

The Northwest Agency , I believe , expects to have a deficit of about $200 ,000; the Northeast Child and Family Services expects a deficit between $150 ,000 and $200 ,000; the Central Winnipeg Agency , a deficit of about $60 ,000 ; the Child and Family Services of Winnipeg West is ant ic ipating a deficit of about $100,000.00. These agencies had huge deficits last year. I wonder , is there any way in which the Minister, on this particular area of Financial Services , where they 1916

Monday, 11 May, 1987 can project closer spending estimates than what we have been doing at the present time, because these agencies seem to consistently be running up huge deficits for the particular areas which they represent? I guess the question is: Is the Minister going to be picking up these deficits again, as she has in previous years, or would a different method of funding, such as block funding, would that help the situation where the agencies could then allocate the monies as they saw fit? HON. M. SMITH: There are several factors here.

One is the total amount of money that is in the system and how it's accessed; the other is the volume issue. As I have said before, the pattern of service delivery that predated regional ization was not as accessi ble to people. There was not as much activity among the Native community in meeting their family needs, and there was not the big thrust on in identification and reporting of child abuse. All those factors have made the Child and Family Services increase its volume and complexity of work very significantly.

Our funding poli cy has been to work along with them to increase the planning capacity, both of our system th rough dev eloping the comp uterized information systems and so on, and committal accounting rather than being billed after the fact, so that we could have timely information and project more clearly; also a workload study so that we could clearly identify the mix of cases, because the agencies now have a gr eater variety of cases than they used to have. They have some where counselling a family, where placing a homemaker in a family, parent-aid services are available,

whereas before they basically had foster care and adoption care and group home care. So the workload study will again help us to identify the mix of workload in each agency and, through all these measures, along with the cooperative work towards global budgeting, we intend to arrive at a much tighter and more accurate budgeting, both at the agency level and in our department.

Again, I think that the factors that I identified in the opening address that identify some of the social change going on out there have to be remem bered when we're talking about this service, the stress in families and the negative things that are going on for children in our society. I think none of us should be compla cent that we somehow had arrived at a magic level of service delivery, and all we're doing is just giving it in a different way. In fact, we are discovering a great deal of malaise, suffering and need among childr en tha t was not identified or dealt with before.

We are not being too easy on the agencies in terms of picking up all their deficits or being very undemanding in terms of what they're accountable for. We have carefully reviewed their current situation and have done some deficit reduction for this year, but we have clearly signalled to them that they must manage some of their accumulated deficit into next year and must continue to work at finding the most cost-efficient way of delivering their mix of services.

It's very much a cooperative venture and one where we very much need the information and experience that each group has, but the final determinant is going to be whether we've levelled off yet in terms of identifying the approximate numbers of children in need that the system should be dealing with or whether, the further on we go, we'r e going to find incr easing workloads. We certainly hope that the system will level off, and in fact we are seeing evidence of that in one or two agencies but the most needy areas have not yet been able to demonstrate that levelling off. MR. A.

BROWN: I notice that we have $125,900 worth of Other Expenditures. I wonder if the Minister could give me a list of what the Other Expenditures would be in an area such as this? HON. M. SMITH: Yes, Transporta tion $17 , 000; Commun ications $1 7, 000; Su ppl ies and Services $35,000; And Other Operating Monies $56,900.00. And again this would deal with - it's a monitoring and control process, someti mes it req uires departmental people going out to agencies. In other cases it's going over their budgetary material in our department. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (e)

(1) Financial Services: Salaries­ pass; 1. (e)

(2) Other Expendit ures-p ass. 1. (f)( 1) Administrative Services: Salaries; 1. (f)

(2) Other Expenditures - the Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Administrative Services provides management and information systems development, data pr ocessing, administration of office space, office equipment and departmental fleet vehicles. I wonder if the Minister can tell me who is doing the data processing? Is the data processing being done by the Administrative Services, or is data processing being done by another agency? HON. M. SMITH: There's a mixture.

The Manitoba Data Services provides the basic support for financial assistance and then we also have in-department staff particularly working on the child and family service system. MR. A. BROWN: Has there been any substantial increase in office equipment and departmental fleet vehicles within the past year? I don't think that we have opened any new offices and I was just wondering whether there had been any substantial amount of office equipment or departmental fleet vehicles increased. HON. M. SMITH: No.

We've remained very stable in the office side and we've actually had a slight reduction on the vehicle fleet by watching very closely - I was going to say mileage - but the kilometrage of the individual vehicles. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.( f)

(1) Admin istrative Services: Salaries- pass; 1. (f)

(2) Other Expenditures- pass. 1. (g)

(1) Human Resources Services: Salaries; 1. (g)

(2) Other Expenditures - the Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I notice that in this department, spending is planned to increase 14.8 percent in 1988. Over the past five years, we have seen an increase of 95 percent. 1917

Monday, 11 May, 1987 I wonder if the Minister can explain to me why have we had such a large increase in Human Resources Services; and why, when we're trying to cut back in every area, would we have an increase in Human Resources Services like we 're seeing? HON. M. SMITH: The basic increase is because the Civil Service was carrying the affirmative action process for government. They have now given us that responsibility and we have one staff person who is the Affirmative Action coordinator. The other minor increase has been in general salary increase and increments. MR. A.

BROWN: Can the Minister give me an explanation of just exactly what does she mean by having an extra person to look at the affirmative action? Does this mean that whenever staff is hired - do a certain number of these have to be women? Are we trying to reach a certain percentage or what does the Minister mean by affirmative action? HON. M. SMITH: Our Affirmative Action Program follows the general government Affirmative Action Program .

It's our belief, as the government, that the numbers of women, disabled persons, Native people and visible minorities , should more gradually approximate the proportion of those persons in the community but, in more specific sense, persons with appropriate training for the jobs open . We also believe, in addition to achieving this balance over time, that it's very important to work with the existing staff or with the unions.

They have been used to a seniority approach to government and often if not brought on side in understanding and cooperating with an Affirmative Action Program, may in fact be resentful of it or at worse, not even cooperative. So a lot of planning has gone in. There are representatives from varying levels of work in the department, varying areas, staff people who have worked with the coordinator to develop a department plan.

Included in that is information about what mix we currently have about those particular groupings and then, as vacancies come up, there is a form that is used by the Civil Service which enables an applicant , if they choose, to identify themselves as coming from one of those minority groups. Again, they are given preference only where experience and ability are on a par, but the effort is also there to overcome any trad itional barriers that may have existed for persons of those groups .

I guess when you get into affirmative action, you find that the dearth of people from those groupings has often been because of perceptions that perhaps the hiring group has which undervalues the job skill and ability of a par ticular group because of secondary characteristics and what we 're doing in all our interview procedures, hiring procedures, is attempt to discount those irrelevant factors and thereby over tim e bring those minority groupings into the Civil Service in greater numbers .

We have , in terms of success , I have actually the data from April 1 to December 31, 1986 ; of 301 appointments made , 7 were Native or 2.3 percent ; 1 physically disabled or .3 percent; 3 visible minority or 1 percent ; total appointments to female under represented classifications were 59 or 19.6 percent. As well , the branch undertook 64 classification reviews , because in some cases we find that the work performed by min·ority groups, I guess most significant ly females, is underclassified.

When a classification review occurs , independent factors are looked at in terms of the skills required in the work content and checked against other job positions to see that the classifications are indeed accurate. MR. A. BROWN: Mr. Chairman , I appreciate the answer that was given to me by the Minister. This was going to be my next question as to the breakdown; but I'm sorry, I had the breakdown on the minority groups, but I did not get the breakdown male versus female. Can the Minister give me that figure again? HON. M.

SMITH: Again, I'm only counting in areas where females were previously underrepresented , so it's not all of the categories in the government , but in areas where they were underrepresented , 59 or 19.6 percent of the appointments were for women. MR. A. BROWN: My next question then is: Does the Minister have a breakdown between male and female employees within her department? HON. M. SMITH: In the total department , as of March 1986, of 2,200 employees, 1,068 or 48.5 percent were female ; as of March 1987, the total complement of 2,330, 1,180 were female or 50.6 percent. MR. A. BROWN: Mr.

Chairman, as far as I know , this is one of the major items where we have development and training of staff resou rces. This particular area has been criticized grossly by everybody concerned about Community Services, especially in all the reports that we have received on Community Services . Can the Minister tell me what kind of development and training of staff resources do we have at this particular stage of the game; and how do they interface with other training and development in staff resources? HON. M. SMITH: The Human Resources group is primarily responsible for the general personnel issues.

The training needs and the mode of delivery are the responsibility of individual program people in the program areas , and they may have quite a variety of training formats; they may bring outsiders in; they may hire their own, depend ing on the need. But we've put a high priority on training our own people, people in agencies and volunteers, for the kind of work that is being done particularly in emerging areas such as more and more community boards , more and more work on areas like child abuse for which there really was not a lot of expertise in the field .

It's been extremely important to develop those programs . Again , I'd be glad to comment on that when we come to the individual program areas. There is, as well, a general training program provided to all government personnel through the Civil Service Commission . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for River Heights . MRS . S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. One can assume that in this area , the managerial individual who was paid $37 ,300 last year, and is now 1918

Monday, 11 May, 1987 paid $51,000, is indeed a different person. Can the Minis ter confirm that? HON. M. SMITH: Yes, Mr. Chairman . MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Can the Minister explain yet, once again, because I don 't understand why a government , when it's hiring someone, deliberately goes out of their way to hire somebody that they have to pay 36 percent more than they had to pay that individual the previous year? HON. M. SMITH: We put a great deal of emphasis on the human resources development , both at recruiting good personnel policies and human resources development issues.

We also have the affirmative act ion thrust. In fact, the person we recruited - we wanted someone who would bring a much more pro-active role to this particular position . MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: As the Minister is well aware, most of the administrative support in all of these departments tends to be, for the most part, women. We talk about affirmative action, and yet the administrative support part of the budget goes down by 3.8 percent;

whereas the managerial and professional and technical - one goes up by 36 percent and one goes up by 18.1 percent. Can the Minister explain why administrative support women don't seem to get the same kind of salary inducements as those in perhaps higher categories? HON. M. SMITH : In fact the managerial position is held by a woman , a very well qualified and experienced woman. The administrative support - the slight variation in pay levels there - has been because with change­ over, people have come on at a lower level; they would be less experienced.

Overall, the government has been offering administrative support women training opportunit ies to move up the ladder. Prior to fairl y recently, they tended to go up rather quickly and then along - what we used to call the horizontal path - and their pay would often depend on who they work ed for.

Whereas what we are trying to provide is more of a career ladder . Quite a few women have been accessing that particu lar opportunity. As well, the pay equity process should , over time, in assessing the mix of tasks and the skill, effort, responsibility, working conditions of this particular group; I have no doubt that it will lead to a significant upgrading. But you do tend to see reflected the historical patterns that are one of the reasons that we 've introduced the pay equity .

The problem has always been somewhat twofold in that many women see themse lves as occupying support roles, rather than moving on to the professional , technical or manage ria l. Perhaps they didn't access the appropriate education or don't have as long work experience . But it's our bel ief that many of them are very well endowed with the basic capacity, and with both encouragem ent and on-the-job training opportunities , we will start to see quite a bit of movement there . MRS. S.

CARSTAIRS: Can the Minister tell us if this Affirmative Actio n Policy and Proc edural Manual is now 1919 in production , or when it is anticipated it will be in production; and will it be one that could be applied to all departments or will it be limited to the Communit y Services Departm ent? HON. M. SMITH: The manual is in draft form now, and will be in its final form by July of this year. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Would the Minister answer the second part of that question, which was : Will that manual then be applicable to other departments or strictly to Community Services? HON. M.

SMITH: A comparable proc ess is going on in other departm ents. There are some elements of it that will be common throughout government, and others will be specific to our depa rtment, so it has both qualities . But this particular manual is for use within our departm ent. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Well , Mr. Chairman, that has to lead to the next question , tha t we have 25 government depar tments. Are we going to end up with 25 manuals, costing $10,000 each? HON. M. SMITH: It's one of those questions th at deserv es a both /and answer. There is coordination through the Civil Ser vice.

There are substantial elements in both th e programs and the manuals that will be similar. Then there are some sections which are specific, but that kin d of coordination to avoid duplication does occur. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Kirkfield Park . MRS. G. HAMMOND: Mr. Chairma n, I just wanted to ask further, what will be the specific differences in thi s manua l in Community Services , say, that would be different from any other department? HON . M. SMITH: Mr.

Chairman, because our department is a very larg e employer - it's one of the largest, certainly not the largest - and bec ause there are a mix of services and institutional employment eleme nts, we in fact do have a very active recruit ment policy . We are engaged in delivering many services . one could say almost a disproportionate number of services relativ e to the population to Native people . That has been one of our concerns that we haven 't, in the past, had a very substantial representation of Native persons. So we 've been particularly act ive in that recruitment area.

Again, the directions and procedures are similar, departmen t by departmen t, but the particular approach we have permits flexible movement , depending on the circumstan ces. Attrit ion is a little different in each department and the program mi x, but we probably hire more people who require relatively less formal tra ining , so we are able to provide entry-level jobs for people . But again, I guess it ' s becau se of the particular typ e of programming that we have that we're really very active. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Just the last question , Mr.

Chairm an - the Minister specifically mentioned the Native communi ty compo nent.

Monday, 11 May, 1987 Would this apply then in her department? Would the handicapped, because of the size of the department , would that be another area where they would hire more? HON. M. SMITH: Yes, there is a thrust . There are four groupings that we're dealing with, and we are already facing the issue of access and so on , accessible washrooms and so on . We've been working hard , training the managers to help them remove systemic barriers in their evaluation or assumptions about minority groups.

We have an inventory of applicants to facilitate affirmative action , and we're helping with career pathing , along with the Civil Service, to help people come in at a manageable level and then, over time , to move along . MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(g)

(1) Human Resources Services : Salaries-pass ; 1(g)

(2) Other Expenditures-pass. There will be no resolution on Item No. 1 until after the Minister's Salary . Item No. 2., Registration and Licensing Services , Vital Statistics: Salaries 2.(a)(1); Other Expenditures 2.(a)(2) - the Member for Rhineland . MR. A. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman . The provincial statutes have been preventing parents from giving their children the mother's surname or a hyphenated name, and this of course is being struck down by The Change of Name Act. I wonder if in fact this change of name, is this already being implemented by Vital Statistics?

Are they already being allowed to give the mother 's surname or a hyphenated name under th is particular area? HON. M. SMITH: Currently , Vital Statistics does enable people to give their children their name of choice. The change under the new act will be that the name at birth will still be the name of choice of the parents , but the successive changes to that name will go through somewhat different procedures . Well , we 've discussed it in legislation but primarily, if there is a separated couple , the spouse who has custody would have to notify the other parent within due time.

If there 's no response , the director would have the authority to authorize a change . MR. A. BROWN: I notice that the Vital Statist ics Branch has moved to new headquarters. I wasn 't aware of th is. I went down to the old place a couple of days ago , and I had some business over there. I noticed that they have moved over to a new spac e, and I believe that they do have more space over there and it looked to me as if it was quite a nice place that they had moved to . So I would like to compliment the Minister on that move .

I think that this is a good move , because they seemed to be rather crowded in the facilities they were in previously . There has been very little increase in the spending of this particular departm ent. There was a 2 percent total spending increase in 1987, and a plann ed increase of 7 percent total in 1988. Over the last four years , I believe there 's only been a 10.3 percent increase from 1984 to 1988. However , fee increases under The Vital Statistics Act have really increased from 1980 , when you paid $5 for birth , marriage or death certificates.

That was increased in 1984 to $8 and now , in 1986, to $10 .00 . Now that 's 100 percent increase. If we co mp are the increase of the birth , marriage and death certificates as to the overall increase of expenditures in Vital Statistics , then you wonder where the Minister can justify this 100 percent increase. HON. M. SMITH: I'm glad we can find one area of clear agreement between myself and my critic. We too are very pleased that the Vital Statistics group has been able to move to the renovated Bank of Nova Scotia .

In fact, they were in very crowded, not too attractive quarters in the basement of the Norquay Building, and it was fire and safety concerns that dictated the move . Although we might have wanted to do it for cosmetic and comfort reasons , we are not going out of our way to add offices or change them . But in this case , it was clearly indicated and we 're quite delighted that they do perform a public and important function that they are in fine new quarters.

With regard to the budget of the branch, in fact , the workload , judging by the numbers of live births , marri ages , deaths , and stillbirths per year, has stayed relatively constant. The reason for the fee increase is that, contrary to suggestions opposite that we don 't know how to manage a peanut stand , we have learned that , to the extent that we can balance the cost of a public service with the income , we should do so . It' s our belief that these fees , we did compare with other provinces, and we are somewhere very much in the middle of the truth in terms of cost comparability.

So we think it's a good principle that, where possible , we have the cost covered by the fee . MR. A. BROWN: Mr. Chairman , I understand that this area has just recently been computerized . Can the Minister tell me whether the computerization is finished and, if it is, has it really improved the service to any extent? Can the Minister tell me what the cost of computerization was? HON. M. SMITH: The full operation of the system won 't be for anot her six months , at which point we will be providing the certificates . We are computerizing the information for the last four years.

There is a backlog of information which has not yet been entered . More information will be available, and it will be available in a more timely fashion. So we believe it' s well justified. But we do have some monies in this year's budget to complete the hardware and software purchase. MR. A. BROWN: Can the Minister tell me what the cost of computerization is going to be? HON. M. SMITH: The cost to date has been a very modest $80,000 .00 . There is $15,000 budgeted for this year to complete the hardware and the software. That will accommodate some more information , co llectio n and preservation . MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for River Heights . MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you , Mr. Chairm an. I was pleased to hear the Minister say that she was trying to balance cost with income. But I would like 1920

Monday, 11 May, 1987 her to explain why a $250,000 profit last year wasn't adequate , and this year will be going up in thi s department to a $687,00 0 profit. HON. M. SMITH: I suppose I could say that we're making up for all the past , but in fact that is not the case . Not all the costs are included in our budg et. Government Services does cover the basic rental and utilities and so on. So I think , if we compiled all the costs, that we'd find we're running very, very close . MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Can the Minister please give us a little more breakdown on what Other Operating are in this budget at $85,000 .00?

HON. M. SMITH: The indirect operating costs there is $101,300 in staff benefits ; Government Services , the physical plant, $285,800 ; mail costs , $72 ,100; Finance - Public Account support of $5,000; and revenue and banking , $6,000 ; Attorney-General, legal services of $12,000 ; Legislation - that's statutes and regulation s, $6,000; Community Serv ices departmenta l support, accounting , personnel systems at $96 ,500, with a sub total of $584,700.00. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Well, I'm delighted with that information , but that wasn 't the question.

Page 34, under Other Operating, $85,000 is listed as Other Operating costs for this department , up from $70,000.00 . HON. M. SMITH: A composite of hotels, meals , computer-related cha rges , loss, damage , insurance and extraordinary costs , publications, employee education assistance , relocation and transfer costs, other possible membership fees, hospitality , uniforms, conference or convention registration fees and incidental allowances. Again, that's the general type of expenditure that would go in under Other Operating in this particular cas e. The mix might be specific to that particul ar grou p. MRS. S.

CARSTAIRS: In light of the figure th at the Minister gave me on a previous question, whi ch was some $584 ,700, which I gather are costs for Vital Statistics that don 't show up in this budget but in fact show up in Community Services or show up elsewh ere, it would have to be considered in the overall operation of this department, so that indeed there wou ld perhaps be a balanced cost with income of only $102,000.00. Is that approximately correct? HON. M. SMITH: We estimate we're slightly in the blac k here by about $122,000.00. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(a)

(1) Vital Statistics: Salaries ­ pass ; 2.(a)

(2) Other Expenditures-pass . 2.(b)

(1) Residential Care Licensing: Salaries; 2.(b)

(2) Other Expenditures - the Member for Rhinela nd . MR. A. BROWN: Mr. Chair man , we have now com e to an area which I believ e is a very important area. It says , " Residential Care Licensing." This is the area in which we license hom es , group homes and where requirements hav e to be met, certain standards have to be met, in order for them to continue. In 1987 , Mr. Chairman, we saw a very small increa se, a very slight increase , of 2.14 percent in spending in thi s particular department.

In 1988, we have seen a little further increase of 7.6 percent increase in spending in th is particular department; but in th e o verall expenditures from 1984 to 1988 we have seen a deficit of 15.3 percent dec rease in spend ing. Mr. Chairman, this is a ver y vital fu nction that Residen tial Care Licensing is providing. Why would we have a 15.3 percent decrease in spending? Does the Minister not rea lize the important function that these people are servicing?

We know that there is very little monitoring at the present time of conditions in thes e group homes; that inspectors , if they go around to these group hom es twice a yea r, then they're doing well. I wonder if the Minister can explain why she is down playing this particular area and is there any fact to the rumour that I've been hearin g that the Minister in fact is going to be doing away entirely with reside ntia l care licensing with this particu lar department? HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Chairman, the licensing proces s is an important on e.

This department ha s been condu cting this function for a wide range of group homes. There is a dual type of licensing that goes on. There is a licensing of some types of homes and an approval proc ess done in the regions for another type of home . The system was being developed under the previous govern ment and really came on stream along with a lot of fire and safety upgr ading requirements becaus e of improvements in the fire code. The peak of th e work was occurring in the '82-83 time period .

We ' ve watched closely the workload and do uble ­ che ck ed it a nd it is our belief that for the factors that we currently register for - remember, this isn't a full pro gram management. This is a registration and licensi ng for the minimum standards of physical safety, well-being of the residents , having to do with nutrition and medication, that we are ab le to keep that system fun ct ioning in an adequate manner. There are semi-annual inspectio ns of all of the homes and we find that we can meet that standard with our current complement.

Again , we are alwa ys reviewing the way in which we perform these functions and , if there should come a time when there was a major shift in how we deliver a program, obviously the way that we would regist er and license would be under review as well. But so long as the program patt ern rema ins the sam e, this size of an office can manage the workload. MR. A. BROWN: Is the Minister planning to phase out Residential Care Licen sing? HON. M. SMITH: I think I said no. I said, should we move to a new program format in any of the areas , because there 's quite a few areas covered.

We might review at that time how we 're performing the licensing function; but we do see the review of the mininimum standards of these homes as an important function to be done. As I say, there's no intention to phase out that function . MR. A. BROWN: This department regulates fire and health stan dards for residential care homes. I wonde r, 1921

Monday, 11 May, 1987 can the Minister tell me how many of the homes have not been able to meet the requirements and have voluntarily closed; and how many beds were involved? HON. M. SMITH: Since the standards were introduced in 19 82, 18 facilities have closed and 2 are currently op erat ing under conditional licensing. The 18 do represent 237 beds. Of those, 2 closed in'81 with 27 beds; 9 in'82 with 121 beds; five in'83 with 59 beds; none in'84 and'85; and 2 in '86 for 30 beds. There are in total, of the licensed and app roved facilities . . . A MEMBER: Mr. Chairman, we can't hear the speaker. HON. M.

SMITH: There are 144 licensed facilities with 1,3 40 beds. MR. A. BROWN: I'm sorry, Mr. Chairman, we could not hear that answer because it was not coming through our system, and the Minister was speaking rather quietly. I wonder if she could repeat the answer and give us those same figures once more. I understand that the Minister said that there were 18 homes closed, 237 beds were involved , but that's as far as I got HON. M. SMITH: This is from 198 1 to 19 86; these are homes which did not meet the licensing standards.

Just one moment while I clarify; I'm trying to find out if this is the specific type of home or whether it covers all. Just to give you some total, of licensed and appr oved facilities, there are 625 facilities in the province. They break down into 376 for mental retard ation; 15 4 for mental health; 31 for infirm and aged; and 64 which are mixed. The total number of beds represented are 2,278. Of those, 1, 340 are licensed in 144 facilities, and 938 are app roved in 481 facilities; they are the smaller-scale ones.

Now the ones which have closed for not meeting licence standards are in the private guest home for the infirm, aged and mixed populations. From 1981 to Jan uary 19 87, there were 18 facilities, comprising 237 beds. The bulk of those were in the first two years of the program. MR. A. BROWN: Of the 18 homes which closed, either voluntarily or otherwise, these persons who had to be put in other facilities; can the Minister give me a figure as to what the extra cost was for the department in order to get these persons moved into other facilities? HON. M.

SMITH: Again, I repeat, that many of the homes which we license, are operated under private auspices and the residents themselves are private payers. Our role has been to see that they are safe facilities. Therefore, the close down and the movement of people to other facilities was not a charge to the government or to our department. The only variables would have come if some of those persons were on some form of assistance; but, by far, the largest number of people in these homes are self-paying. MR. A.

BROWN: Are there any residential care homes operating who still have not met fire and health standards? 1922 HON. M. SMITH: Yes, there are two facilities that are operating on conditional licences. Both are facilities which existed prior to 1981 and are being grandfathered into the system: St Norbert Lodge and a Smith facility on Talbot. Of these, one has just about completed their qualifications, and the other we aren't sure yet. MR. A. BROWN: If some of these operations were to be closed, does the government have any alternativ e accommodations where these persons could be placed? HON. M.

SMITH: Yes; in fact when the previous homes did close down, there was assistance given with relocation. In this case, there would be some notice and assistance given to relocate. MR. A. BROWN: The residential care operators within this province are unhappy because they say they cannot operate under the allowances which they are given at the present time, and that they do need extra funding in order for them to continue, in order for them to meet the kind of standards which are requir ed by the department.

I can see where the department would want to make certain that fire regulations and health standards were met. Yet the Minister, again, seems to be very reluctant to give these ag