Manitoba Hansard — 13 March 1991 (Sitting 5, 35th Legislature, 2nd Session)

35-2-5

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 Second Session -Thirty-Fifth Leglslature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS {HANSARD) 40 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XL No . 5 -1:30 p.m., WEDNESDAY, MARCH 13, 1991 Printed by the Offi ce of the Queens Printer. Province of Manitoba ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Leglslature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CARR, James CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CHEEMA, Guizar CHOMIAK, Dave CONNERY, Edward CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HARPER, Elijah HELWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MclNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEUFELD, Harold, Hon. ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy WOWCHUK, Rosann CONSTITUENCY Osborne Thompson Wellington Crescentwood River Heights Radisson The Maples Kildonan Portage la Prairie Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Rupertsland Gimli Point Douglas lnkster The Pas St. Norbert Elm wood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Rossmere Pembina Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Flin Flon La Verendrye Fort Garry St. Johns Swan River PARTY.

Liberal NOP NOP Liberal Liberal NOP Liberal NOP PC PC PC PC NOP NOP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NOP NOP PC PC NOP Liberal PC NOP PC NOP Liberal NOP PC NOP PC NOP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NOP PC NOP PC PC PC PC NOP PC NOP PC PC NOP NOP

14 9 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, March 13, 1991 The House met at 1 :30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Harold Neufeld (Minister of Energy and Mines): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to table the Annual Report for the Department of Energy and Mines. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Biii 3-The Coat of Arms, Emblems and The Manitoba Tartan Amendment Act Hon. Bonnie Mltchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): I move, seconded by the Minister of Highways and Transportation (Mr. Driedger), that Bill 3, The Coat of Arms, Emblems and the Manitoba Tartan Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les armoiries, les emblemes et le tartan du Manitoba, be introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. Biil 18-The Munlclpal Amendment Act Hon. James Downey (Minister of Ru ral Development): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship (Mrs. Mitchelson) , that Bill 18, The Municipal Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les municipalites, be introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. Biii 19-The Local Authorities Election Amendment Act Hon. James Downey (M inister of Ru ral Development): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Highways and Transportation (Mr. Driedger), that Bill 19, The Local Authorities Election Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur !'election des autorites locales, be introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to • •

(1335) Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery, where we have with us this afternoon from the George McDowell School, fifty-three Grade 9 students. They are under the direction of Brian Hyska. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Seine River (Mrs. Dacquay). On behalf of all members, I welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Soclal Assistance Projections Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, of course Canada is experiencing, as the Economic Cou nc il of Can ada descr ibes, a made-in-Canada recession un der the federal Conservative government. Of course, the same Conference Board of Canada is projecting that Manitoba is indeed 10 out of 1 0 and the last province out of the recession in 1991. Beyond those statistics, there is a lot of pain for people who are hardest hit in our society and our province by a recession, the people at the lowest ends of our society, Mr. Speaker, in terms of their opportunities and their economic and social situation.

We know last year that even though we were told the province was strong, the welfare rates in Manitoba increased 12 percent in the city of Winnipeg alone. I would ask the Premier: What is the projected increase in welfare in the province of Manitoba for the '91 year given the very dismal economic situation in this province and given the fact that we are projected to be 10 out of 10 in terms of economic performance?

15 0 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA March 13 , 19 91 Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, the information that was contained in last fall's budget was indeed accurate. This province was one of the last to be affected negatively by the recession. In fact, if you look at that same Conference Board information, he will find that last year, the year of 1990, Manitoba had the second highest growth of any province in the country. So indeed the factual information contained in that budget was there and was accurate. Mr.

Speaker, with the national recession ultimately eventually affecting Manitoba, and unfortunately when combined with a projection of very, very low prices and agriculture production for this year, which is the single major item that was indicated in that Conference Board assessment of our dismal projections for this year, obviously, we have difficult times to face this year.

With respect to specifics such as the projections of what potential increase there might be and those people on social assistance in Manitoba, I would invite the Leader of the Opposition and his critic to engage in a debate with the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) where they can talk about projections, talk about the outlook. He can give the New Democratic Party the purview that the department has as to what is happening out there. Indeed, people's lives are being affected. We are concerned about that.

We want to ensure that we continue to do the things that we are doing to protect the integrity and the foundation of our economy to keep taxes down, to ensure that we do not leave this recession with the huge debt load that the NOP left the recession of 1982 with that really crippled the ability to grow for such a long time, Mr. Speaker. Recession Government Initiatives Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I am glad the Premier finally admitted that it is a dismal projection for the economic situation in 1991.

He may not understand this, but when the dismal situation and the econo mic situation develops, then it trickles down into the people hardest hit in Family Services. So that is why I am asking the Premier the question. Mr. Speaker, the firsttwomonths of 1 991 we have a 15 percent increase in the welfare cases already filed with the City of Winnipeg. We have a situation where there is a 50 percent increase in the use of food banks in the city of Winnipeg at the Harvest Food Bank. We hear about a 65 percent increase in the use of food banks in Transcona.

I am asking this Premier, what hope can he give the people of Manitoba that are being clobbered by this Tory recession? What hope can he give the people of this province that are being hit very, very hard every day in terms of their livelihood and their families? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I do not understand how it is that the Leader of the New Democratic Party can pick up a newspaper and come up with all of a sudden all of this incredible new information to him. The fact of the matter is that virtually every Manitoban has been aware of the difficult economic circumstances that face this province.

We are very concerned about the needs and the concerns of the people at the lowest levels of society in economic circumstances. We are concerned as well about the farmers. If he wants to know about economic circumstances, he ought to go out beyond the bounds of this city of Winnipeg and talk to some farmers, find out what it is like for people who face a real reduction in income of 25 percent, year upon year, 25 percent less expected in income, Mr. Speaker. •

(1340) When he wants to talk about food banks, let him also pick up the newspaper of the Globe and Mail of March 13. There is a story headline, "Overloaded welfare system called strain on food banks. " It talks about the fact and quote: "Almost 10 percent of Metro residents are on welfare .... " That is the city of Toronto, Mr. Speaker. So if by some chance, the Leader of the New Democratic Party is under the impression that the recession is only affecting Manitoba, I say, take off the blinkers; take off your ideological boundaries and look at the reality of what is happening in this country.

It is, indeed, a made-in-Canada recession caused by exorbitantly high interest rates that have dampened the economy right across the country. We were fortunate last year when we had the second highest growth in the entire country and now we are part of the recession, regrettably, because it is affecting everyone. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, you are not just part of the recession, you are predicted now to be last in the

March 13 , 19 91 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANIT OBA 151 country, 10 out of 10, so I am asking the Premier of Manitoba, that is projected to be 10 out of 10, what hope can he give the families, and the people that are going to food bank s, that are enr ollin g unfortunately in welfare programs, and at the same time his own government is looking at cutting back youth emp loyment programs and other social services that are absolutely essential for people in the recession.

My question to the Premier is: What hope and what positive programs can he provide for the people hardest hit by this Tory recession so that they can start working and having opportunities in our country that all Canadians deserve in terms of the quality of our country and the opportunities that we should be able to provide everybody? Mr. Fllmon: Mr.

Speaker, what I can tell the people of Manitoba who have been regrettably hurt badly by the recession, which is a made-in-Canada and across Canada recession, is that this government will continue to support the social services of this province, will continue to place a high priority on health care in this province. We have passed along to welfare recipients increases at inflation. We have also had them take in addition to that the payments that they are allowed to take now: the sales tax credit, the federal GST credit that was not deducted as in some previous times special payments have been.

They have been allowed to keep that as well as getting increases at or above inflation to their social allowances. In addition to that, Mr. Speaker, we are ensuring that those people in this province who are holding on to what they have, who are making the payments on their houses, who are continuing to make ends meet with their families, are not burdened by increases in taxes.

We have made a commitment that we are not going to have increases in personal income taxes, increases in major taxes in this province, and we need the help of the opposition parties instead of day after day telling us to do something about the protection of the economy, at the same time spend, spend, spend more, tax, tax, tax more, like was done under the NOP throughout the 1980s. We are not going to do that. We are going to keep faith with the people of Manitoba, and we are going to hang on and keep taxes down and preserve vital services. Education System Funding Mr. Dave Chomlak (Klldonan): Mr.

Speaker, my question is directed to the Premier. The minister chose to offload a significant portion of property tax on the ratepayers. There will be a ratepayers' revolt, and they will let this government know that all their posturing and rhetoric during the campaign amounts to nothing in terms of their credibility, because their actions speak louder than their words. Gary Filmon, in this House, 1982, after a 12.9 percent increase in taxes: Can the Premier talk to his minister- Point of Order Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I would ask the member to address the First Minister (Mr.

Filmon) in the proper fashion in keeping with the parliamentary fashion that we, of course, attempt to follow here at times. "( 1345) Mr. Speaker: I would like to thank the honourable government House leader. I would remind the honourable member for Kildonan that we do address member s of this Cham ber as the honourable member and the constituency he represents or the ministry in which the member is responsible for. *** Mr. Chomlak: Mr. Speaker, I intended to quote the present member, and I believe the former member for Tuxedo, who made those comments in this House in 1982.

I believe it was River Heights perhaps in 1982 when he made those comments. My question for the Premier, Mr. Speaker, is: What actions he will take to direct his minister to deal with the impact that significant tax increases are having on the public of Manitoba as a result of this government's capping of education funds to school divisions. Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I remind the member for Kildonan (Mr.

Chomiak) that the party of which he is a part now, the NOP government of the mid-1980s, the Pawley adminis tration, passed along a 2 percent increase to public schools in 1985 at a time when their revenues were increasing at 6.8 percent-6. 8 percent- and they passed along 2 percent.

15 2 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA March 13 , 19 91 This year our revenues are increasing at zero percent, and we are still passing along 2 percent to the pub lic sc hool sys te m. Under tho se circumstances, we have asked the various school boards of this province to hold hands with us and to walk through this difficult time together. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. The honourable First Minister to finish his response. Mr. Fllmon: We have gotten zero percent increase in our revenues, and we have still passed along 2 percent to the public schools of this province.

We have said you are going to have to make do with it because these are difficult times, the same difficult times that his Leader just spoke about in the opening questions. They affect everyo ne. They affect government revenues regardless of what level you are. Under those circumstances you have a choice, try and live within your means, try and make do for a short period of time, not have everything that you would like, try and make do, or else pass along massive increases. We have not passed along massive increases in taxes. School boards have the same responsibility, Mr. Speaker. Education System Funding Mr.

Dave Chomlak (Klldonan): Mr. Speaker, my supplemen tary is di rected to the Min ister of Education. Will the minister commit possibly for next year, and perhaps for next year, the $7 million tax credit given to private companies and the $1 O million increase to private schools, since they have been in government, to the public school system to deal with this serious funding crisis? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, it is too bad that the critic for Education of the New Democratic Party does not understand what it is we are trying to do for workers in this province.

Indeed, there is a partnership -(i nterjection)- there is a need for indus try to become inv olved in training and retraining some of the work force in our province. Indeed, the money that has been destined in that direction is meant to ensure that people who are in the work force today can become retrained for new technologies and can become skilled in the jobs that they will require in the future. If the NOP is criticizing this kind of a move, I do not really know what it is thatthey want in terms of a trained, skilled work force in our province. Mr. Chomlak: My final supplementary is to the same minister.

Workers in St. Boniface School Division are facing a 10.4 percent increase, River East 7.9 percent. Will this minister do something about the Gary Filmon tax increase as a result of this budget-t he GFT? I will call it the member for Tuxedo tax increases, Mr. Speaker. *

(1350) Point of Order Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I know probably the member is not out of order when he alludes to a tax increase and blames it on one person, but that was a government initiative, and indeed it should be spelled out as such. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable government House leader did not have a point of order. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. We are going to get through this with some sense of decorum here. *** Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Speaker, the Premier has just pointed out that we did not pass along tax increases to the people of this province this year. Indeed, when our revenues were zero, we passed along an increase for school divisions of 2 percent. The school divisions then had to make some decisions about their priorities. We have emphasized the fact that indeed this would be a difficult year for them to make some of those difficult decisions. The school boards indeed have the responsibility to set the special levies within their jurisdictions, and they have to be accountable for those kinds of decisions.

Indeed we have passed on a 2 percent increase when our revenues were zero. I think that is credible of this government.

March 13 , 19 91 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 15 3 Department of Environment Untendered Contract Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, since we came back into the session last Thursday, we have heard about how we must live within our means and how there is no money. I would like to ask the Minister of the Environment how the Treasury Board of this province can approve a $20,000 un tendered contr act to a company called Moore and Associates who have no business names registration in this province, no incorporation and not in the phone book. Who are they? Hon.

Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr. Speaker, they are put to work to design an old newspaper recycling intermediary and provide information to this department so we can get on with recycling the newspaper in this province. It should be remembered that one of the people who is going to be working with this organization is Mr. Fenton who headed the recycling program that was put in place, going back two years, brought in a major repor t, some 56 recom menda tions to this department on how we should get on with recycling in this province. Mrs. Carstalrs: The name of the company is Moore and Associates.

Who is the Moore? Mr. Cummings: Mr. Moore. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mrs. Carstalrs: Do we actually have a Treasury Board that gives contracts to people they cannot identify? Mr. Speaker, can the min ister tell this House why moni es can not be found in this fund for the Resource Recovery Institute which in fact already recycles waste paper, but we can find monies for a research contract of $20,000 to a company they cannot even identify? Mr. Cummings: Mr.

Speaker, one of the things that needs to be done across this province is to bring together a market for the newsprint and a capability of bringing that print into a location where it is marketable. The Resource Recovery Institute received some $60,000, I believe it was, from this fund-a total of two grants to get on with a pilot for curb-side recycling in the city of Winnipeg. They did not successfully show that this was an efficient and practical way to provide collection of recyclables. They appealed to the City of Winnipeg.

They were given an extension on their pilot to be able to bring their organization together to prove that it could operate in an efficient and practical manner. They are unable to do that. We need to have an old newsprint recycling intermediary in this province that can efficiently and on a practical basis bring together all of the old newsprint in this province so it can either be recycled or reused and not necessarily have it done at an enormous expense. *

(1355) GRIP Program Clarlflcatlon Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Mr. Speaker, there is indeed a crisis outside the city of Winnipeg in rural Manitoba. Two days ago, I asked this Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Findlay) whether he supported the federal position that the farmers, this spring, could not receive a deficiency payment or transitional payment unless they signed up for GRIP.

The minister did not answer, but yesterday he traipsed off to Brandon and made a statement and revealed the details of premium�in violation of the privileges of this House I might add-he made the statement outside this House of the premiums that would be paid and the benefits that he said would accrue under this program. I ask this minister why he did not mention, at that time, whether in fact he had a position that farmers would not have to sign up for GRI P-to be blackmailed to sign up for GRIP in order to get a deficiency payment this spring.

Why did he not clarify that issue, as I asked him to do on Monday of this week? Hon. Glen Flndlay (Minister of Agrlculture): Mr. Speaker, I do not know where the member thought I had traipsed off to Brandon. I had an interview with the press right outside that door after Question Period. I think that is still in this House. I have been asked that question several times. My answer has consistently been tha t the recomm enda tion from the ad hoe stee ring committee has been that the payment, an ad hoe payment, an interim payment, if one is made by the

15 4 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA March 13 , 19 91 federal government, should be linked as much as possible to enrollment in the safety net programs. I support that principle. I have said it repeatedly that it should be linked as much as possible, because the idea is farmers have to start helping themselves, and the idea that ad hoe is also ending, arid farmers want it to end. They want a predictable program that they can enroll in so they have some security, both in terms of yield and in terms of price, year in and year out for a period of time.

The ad hoe payments will stop after this particular spring when we get phased into the GRIP program. We will try to give that message to the farmers as loud and clear as we can. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Speaker, what does "as much as possible " mean? He is saying the deadline for signing up for GRIP is April 30. He does not say that they will get a deficiency payment regardless of whether they sign up or not. I ask this minister, is this his

interpretation of giving the farmers a deal they cannot refuse? Mr. Flndlay: Mr. Speaker, the member is very remiss in terms of understanding the process that has been in place: an open, public process tor over a year. A task force in place consisting of 19 farmers out of 33 members had evolved the process of how the safety net should be put in place. Those farmer leaders are also on the task force to arrive at what the ad hoe process should be tor this particular spring.

They will report to the federal minister in the next two or three weeks time, I would imagine, and an announcement will be made in early April within that regard, long before the deadline of the sign up for the GRIP program. Benefit Cap Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Mr. Speaker, I ask this minister, in view of the fact that his Premier (Mr. Filmon) and his Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) have consistently said that this opposition is only advocating spend, spend, spend, why does this mini ster persist in putting in place a program that ensures that funds will go into a bottomless pit?

Why does he not put in place a cap of say $50,000 or a thousand acres tor this program, to ensure that there is not a bottomless pit and that huge amounts of dollars do not go to one corporate farm? Hon. Glen Flndlay (Minister of Agrlculture): That member, he calls the farmers a bottomless pit. That is what he has called farmers. There are 25,000 farmers in rural Manitoba, and he is worried about one farm, some mythical farm he does not know anything about. Nobody has recommended a cap on benefits, and the president of the Manitoba Pool Elevators has just said he does not want to see a cap.

Farm leaders have been consistent saying no cap should exist, because the cost per acre is the same for everybody. The cost per acre is the same tor everybody and those people will pay higher premiums if they have more acres involved. He is totally off base when he calls the farmers a bottom less pit. I absolutely resent any corn ment that he calls farmers a bottomless pit. That is totally disrespectful on his behalf. *

(1400) Crop Insurance Discrimination Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Mr. Speaker, my qu estion is to the Minister of Agriculture. Manitoba women were the first women in Canada to get the vote. They have also been leaders in many other areas. However, such is not the case with crop insurance. As we get into the new GRIP program-even though it has many inadequacies-will the minister ensure that all women who choose farming as a livel ihood will be allowed to participate in the program and not be discriminated against? Hon.

Glen Flndlay (Minister of Agrlculture): I have no idea what the member is referring to that they will be discriminated against. I have not got one piece of evidence to support what she has said. There is a woman on the Manitoba Crop Insurance Board or was, Susan Van De Velda. She has now resigned to get on the national committee that is looking at the Constitution, but if she has any evidence that there is any discrimination of women, I would like her to put it on the record. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Speaker, I have the names of some women who have been allowed to get crop insurance.

There are other women who cannot get crop insurance, and because they cannot get crop insurance, they will not qualify for GRIP, women such as Pat Roth who have not qualified, although she has similar circumstances to other women. What are the minister's specific plans to change GRIP and crop insurance to allow all farm women to participate fully?

March 13 , 19 91 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MANIT OBA 15 5 Mr. Findlay: I do not know if the member knows the difference between GRIP and crop insurance. She is cross relating the two. Mr. Speaker, there has been a policy in place for some time with regard to in-family contracts and the Crop Insurance Corporation has reviewed every case to make sure that there is separation in terms of ownership and responsibility between the two different people who are applying for contract. That has been a policy that is in place for many years, going well back into the '80s when a certain other government was in power.

It was a policy they believed in. We have als o asked the Huma n Rig hts Commission to look at this. The Human Rights Commis sion has looked at the process thatthe Crop Insurance Board uses to assess whether women and husbands are separate, and the Human Rights Commission has approved that process. Ms. Wowchuk: To the same minister, society has changed and women are changing their role in agriculture.

What specifically will the minister do to redress the discrimination against Pat Roth when she applied for crop insurance, rather than have her apply under her husband's policy which takes away from her right to make her own decisions and impacts on her husband's policy? Mr. Findlay: Mr.

Speaker, many women have applied to the Crop Insurance Board, and they have followed the policy of the application form that the Human Rights Commission has approved, so you have gone to the Human Rights Commission who approved the process that the board is using to det ermine whether ther e is clear financial responsibility separation, and that is, as far as I am concerned, not allowing any discrimination to occur. City of Winnipeg Ward Boundary Review Mr. James Carr (Crescentwood): My question is to the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Ernst).

We are pleased that the minister is beginning to realize that the so-called independent boundaries committee has no business drawing new electoral boundaries for the city of Winnipeg. Will the minister now admit that a mistake was made and will he return that func tion to the Independent Boundaries Comm ission where it belongs? Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Urban Affairs): The member for Crescentwood clearly still does not understand the process that was put in place. Mr. Speaker, under

Section 671 of The City of Winnipeg Act a committee was established. That committee is presently holding public hearings, but also under

Section 671 of The City of Winnipeg Act, the Cherniack commission was established and they also reviewed a number of aspects of The City of Winni peg Act. That is what is occurring right now. We will receive that report, hopefully by mid to late April, and after that we will make further decisions with regard to the process. Mr. Carr: Mr. Speaker, the Premier (Mr. Filmon) in answer to a question on Friday, himself drew a distinction between the political decision making and the actual drawing of the boundaries.

Why can the minister not make that same distinction himself and review the part of the mandate to that boundaries committee that gives them control over actually drawing the electoral map of the city of Winnipeg and cut his losses and restore some integrity to this process? Mr. Ernst: In his excitement to get up and ask a supplemen tary qu estion, the member for Crescentwood (Mr. Carr) failed to listen to my first answer. That answer that I will repeat for him is this: that the process right now is ongoing, that they are holding public hearings to determine the policy issues related to this particular initiative.

Following their report, we will make other decisions. Ward Boundary Review Costs Mr. James Carr (Crescentwood): Backing off, centimetre by centimetre. Mr. Speaker, with a final supplementary question, as the minis ter knows, the President of the University of Winnipeg and the Chief Justice of the Court of Queen's Bench and the Chief Financial Officer of the City of Winnipeg refused to accept any remuneration when they did the job given to them by The City of Winnipeg Act. How much are these so-called independent members of his committee getting paid by the Province of Manitoba? Hon.

Jim Ernst (Minister of Urban Affairs): If the mem ber for Cresce ntwood would under stand, whenever dealing with a judge of the court, they are not permitted to take additional remunerations. Whenever a university professor, or president for that matter, takes on one of these kinds of tasks,

15 6 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA March 13 , 19 91 they are not allowed to take additional remuneration. With respect to the Returning Officer of the City of Winnipeg, that is his job, Mr. Speaker, to carry out those activities, and he would not receive any remuner ation. With respec t to the current commission, they are receiving a remuneration, the exact numbers of which I do not have with me today, but I would be happy to provide to the member. Reglonal Housing Authorities Centralization Mr. Doug Martlndale (Burrows): Mr.

Speaker, the new Minister of Housing, in one of his first actions as mini ster, via press release, with no public consultation with tenants' organizations, no public consultation with boards of directors of housing authorities, has abolished 98 housing authorities in Manitoba and centralized control of housing authority. Will the Mini ster of Housing admit that his government's policy has denied local control, totally eliminated tenant representation on local housing authority boards and what could possibly be the rationale for such an undemocratic move? Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Housing): Mr .

Speaker, one of the main reasons and something that is probably quite foreign to the member for Burrows and his party is the fact we are going to save the taxpayer $3 million. In addition, the 98 housing authorities managed housing un its from anywhere from four up to thousands of units with all kinds of inefficiencies and duplications of service. Mr. Speaker, that will be corrected under the Manitoba Housing Authority.

In addition to that there were inconsistencies across 98 housing authorities, as there will be, because they are all human beings, in terms of the app lication of government policies related to housing units. Under a single housing authority, that application will be uniform. Job Loss Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): It is an interesting answer, it shows the government is more interested in efficiency than democracy. Will the Minister of Housing- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. •

(1410) Mr. Martlndale: -concede that his policy of eliminating 50 jobs, mostly in rural areas, totally contradic ts the govern men t's policy of decentralizing jobs to rural Manitoba? Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Housing): Mr. Speaker, unfortunately it is regrettable that the member for Burrows is not interested in efficiency, not interested in saving the taxpayers any money, not interested in doing the kind of thing that the public out there demands of its democratically elected government.

With respect to the question of the Manitoba Housing Authority, there will be efficiencies, and yes, there will be some job loss associated with that. Because what you have at the present time are many part-time housing managers spread across the province managing an inefficient number of units, so that while they are being paid as a property manager, they are managing perhaps four or six or eight units. An optimum number for that kind of property management situation could be as many as 200 or 300.

What has to happen is we have to get to an efficient management scheme in order to operate those units in the best possible way and to provide as much of the available scarce resources that there are to the main tenanc e of those properties. Minister of Housing Apology Request Mr. Doug Martlndale (Burrows): This party and I are both interested in efficiency, but we are not going to get it by this short-term, shortsighted policy.

Will the Minister of Housing apologize to the House and to the public of Manitoba for deliberately misleading the public by announcing that abolishing 98 housing authorities would save $3 million when he knows that the figure is not $3 million, it is 1.5 million, and the Peat Marwick study said 1.25 million-- Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. I would remind the honourable member for Burrows to withdraw the remarks of "deliberately misleading." Would the honourable member for Burrows kindly rephrase his question, please? Mr. Martlndale: Mr. Speaker, I withdraw the words, "deliberately misleading-" Mr.

Speaker: I thank the honourable member .

March 13 , 19 91 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANIT OBA 15 7 Mr. Martindale: -and ask the minister why he is misleading the public with the figure three million, when the true figure for Manitoba is 1.5 and the other 1.5 is CMHC money? Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Housing): Mr. Speaker, I do not find it incredible that the members opposite would not figure out that the taxpayer of the federal government and the taxpayer of the provincial government are the same taxpayer. Employment Services Ell ml nation Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): I would like to ask a question of the Minister of Family Services (Mr.

Gilleshammer). Mr. Speaker, unemployment is rising and will get worse during this year. We have 9,000 fewer people working in Manitoba today than in 1987 before this government took of fice. I would like to ask the Mini ster of Fa mily Services, why is he now considering or planning cutbacks and possible elimin ation of his em ploym ent and trainin g programs in a year in which unemp loyment and welfare cases are on the rise? Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Famlly Services): Mr. Spe aker, the member is not operating with accurate information. I think the member was aware that the Minister of Finance (Mr.

Manness) met with MLAs and members of the media in January, and he explained the financial situation that the province was in, that we would be looking at all departments and having staff bring forward ideas, sug gestions and working documents. It is a process that has happened every year, and I would try to discourage the member from fearmongering and putting out as fact some information that he may have found somewhere. Mr. Leonard Evans: Mr.

Speaker, specifically, is the mini ster planning to either scale back or elimi nate the nine regional employment service offices in this province at a time when there are 51 ,000 people out of work, and 12,000 more people out of work than in 1987? Are you scaling back or eliminating those offices? Mr. Gllleshammer: Mr. Speaker, I know the member is well aware that we are in the throne speech and some time following that the budget will be introduced and we will have an opportunity to get into the Estimates process, look at each and every department line by line and have that discussion at that time. Mr.

Leonard Evans: Mr. Speaker, is the minister planning to either scale back or elimin ate the six human resource opportunity centres in the province, thereby eliminating training programs and putting people on welfare, including single parents? Point of Order Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, not only has the member been here for 20 years and knows that those ques tions should be appropriately put dur ing Estimates through you, but also it is repetitive. It is the very same question he asked previously. -(interjection)- Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please.

The honourable opposition House leader, do you want to put your remarks on the record? Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, for the benefit of the government House leader, it is in order for the government not to answer questions. It does that on a daily basis. It is not in order for it to attempt to dictate what kind of question one of the most senior members of this House should be asking for the purpose of trying to obtain information. If the government does not want to answer, that is fine, but do not tell the member not to ask those questions. Mr.

Speaker: On the point of order raised, I would ask the honourable member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans) to rephrase his question, because his question was being repetitive. The honourable member for Brandon East to rephrase his question. Mr. Leonard Evans: Mr. Speaker, I am specifically asking whether the six-not the employment offices-I am now talking about the six human resource opportunity centres in the province which train single parents on welfare who want to get off of welfare, and other disadvantaged people.

Will this minister now give a commitment to this House that he will not scale back or eliminate those six human resource centres that are scattered throughout this- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The first

part is in order. The last part was not in order.

15 8 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANIT OBA March 13 , 19 91 *** Mr.Gllleshammer: I respect that the member is one of the senior members of the House and has been here tor some time. When we have the budget tabled and we get into the Estimates process, I would look forward to seeing him in the Estimates and we can discuss the decisions that are made, and those decisions will be brought forth at that time. Health Care Emergency Services Mr. Guizar Cheema (The Maples): Mr. Speaker, my question is tor the Premier.

During the last three years almost every Winnipeg hospital has been forced to close their emergency rooms, causing stress on the patients and their families and other hospitals, and possible risk to the patients. Mr. Speaker, last nig ht the closure of the emergency room at Grace Hospital clearly shows that no hospital is immune to the health care problems. Can the Premier tell this House what specific measures finally they will take to ensure that Manitobans are not put at risk again? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, I would like to remind the member for The Maples of what is happening everywhere across this country. We, as a province, are doing everything we can to preserve health care. We are making a firm commitment, a commitment which I believe he will be able to support when he sees it brought forward in the budget and in the Estimates vis-a-vis, given the circu mstances we face, the massive cutbacks we have had, the zero percent revenue and the level of funding to health care.

I suggest to him that he read the articles that have been published in the last week about what is happening un der a Liberal admin istration in Newfoundland, where they are cutting 2,100 jobs, Mr. Speaker, of which over 300 are nurses, and 360 hospital beds are being permanently closed. That is not what we are going to be doing in this province. We are going to be preserving the level of service to health care, unlike a Liberal administration of which he would be a part. We obviously have strains.

We obviously have stresses within the system, and where there is one of the smaller hospitals with only 18 emergency beds, sometimes they are taxed to their limit, Mr. Speaker. It is my under standing that Grace Hospital emergency has reopened now, that the strain of reaching their limit has been overcome, but we are having a full report prepared by the office of the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard). Mr. Speaker: The honourable member for The Maples has time for one very short question. Mr. Cheema: Mr.

Speaker, in these tough economic times we must manage our health care dollars very carefully and day surgery and expansion of day hospitals have been proven very cost effective to manage the tax dollars. Can the Premier tell this House why they are not expanding this innovative new community-based idea they have not done so far? *

(1420) Mr. Fllmon: Mr. Speaker, such things as day surgery and various other day procedures have been expanded. I know that the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) has made announcements, and I have been at Concordia Hospital and viewed some of the initiatives that they have undertaken which have been very, very suc cessful in pursuing precisely that.

That is a question about government policy initiatives in areas of health care that should more properly be discussed in the pursuance of the Estimates of the Minister of Health, and I invite him to do that when the Minister of Health has his Estimates before the House very shortly. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. Nonpolltlcal Statements Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, I rise to seek the leave of honourable members to make a nonpolitical statement. Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable Minister of Jus tice have le ave to ma ke a nonp olit ical statement?

Leave? Agreed. Mr. McCrae: Mr. Speaker, I think all honourable memb ers would be in terested to know that Chatelaine magazine has another top 10 category. As a member from the city of Brandon, I am very pleased to note that Chatelaine magazine has included Brandon in its list of top 1 0 cities in Canada.

March 13 , 19 91 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MAN ITOBA 15 9 The magazine refers to Brandon as a safe, spirited commu nity in which to raise a family and goes on to say that "When it comes to old-fashioned everyone-says-hello-on-the-street friendliness, few cities are in the same league with Brandon .... Residents gush almost embarrassingly over the communi ty spirit, sense of caring and feeling of safety that prevail in Manitoba's second-largest city. " I did not want the day to pass without saying to all honourable members how proud I am to be a resident of Brandon.

I will quote the Mayor of Brandon whose response was: They just confirmed everything we knew all along. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I could have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for Brandon East have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? (Leave). Mr. Leonard Evans: Well, very briefly, Mr. Speaker, usually the honourable Attorney General and myself have differences of views on most things, but we do have something in common and that is the welfare of the city of Brandon.

I certainly share the sentiments that he has just expressed. Brandon is a fine city. It is a safe city, and it is a city that has grown over many years. It has a lot of fine facilities and, in fact, even this morning someone was telling me how great a convention centre it was. In fact, I think the Liberals had recently been there, and they found that was true. Certainly, I am very pleased that it has finally been recognized by this good magazine. Thank you. Mr. James Carr (Crescentwood): May I please have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Mr.

Speaker: Does the honourable member for Crescentwood have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? (Leave). Mr. Carr: Each year we look forward with interest to Chatelaine's lists. An Honourable Member: ... you never made it yet. Mr. Carr: I doubt I will. Mr. Speaker, we would like to join the member for Brandon West (Mr. McCrae) an d Bra ndon East (Mr. Leonar d Evans) in congratulating the city of Brandon. We, of course, in the Liberal caucus are fresh from a wonderful weekend in Brandon where we had our annual gene ral meeti ng.

There were literally hundreds of Liberals from all across the province enjoying- An Honourable Member: Not from Brandon. Mr. Carr: Several of them from Brandon, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: Nonpolitical. Mr. Carr: We were first hand the beneficiaries of a wonderful form of hospitality. We add our voice to those who have risen already to congratulate the citizens of Brandon for this well-deserved honour. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. ORDERS OF THE DAY TH RONE SPEECH DEBATE Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable member for St. Vital (Mrs.

Render), for an address to His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor in answer to his speech at the opening of the session, and the proposed amendment to the honourable Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer), and the proposed subamendment to the honourable member for River Heights (Mrs. Carstairs), standing in the name of the honour able me mber for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) who has 26 min utes remaining. Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Mr. Speaker, I began my commen ts in the brief time I had yesterday outlining just how far we have come in such a short period of time since the last election.

In merely six months, this government has stripped away the veneer of moderation and is now proposing a program of cuts-of acute protracted restraint, as the member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) points out-that will not only match the record of the ill-fated Lyon Conservative government, but in my opinion from the almost daily reports we are receiving, will be of sufficient weight to qualify this gov ernment as being the most vic ious and regressive government in Manitoba history. I outline, Mr.

Speaker, in my own particular area of the province, I compare it to provinces' northern constituencies and communities and the problems they are facing with the announcemen ts that are coming forth from this government and the very real concerns that are being expressed about, for example, the prospect of Department of Northern

16 0 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA March 13 , 19 91 Affairs being eliminated, the Northern Youth Corps Program being eliminated, job creation programs being elimin ated, ACCESS program funding being eliminated, the Northern Development Agreement being eliminated. This government, on a daily basis, is living up to those immo rtal words of the so-called Minister of Northern Affairs who in this House, only in the last session, stated that the problem with Northerners was, and I quote, that they did not know how to vote right and that that, Mr.

Speaker, was why they were being singled out for the type of treatment we are seein g on an almo st daily basis from this government, treatment that is cut back, cut back, cut back. Other MLAs have noted that it appears that other areas of this province in those immortal words of that minister did not vote right, because what we are seeing -(interjection)- well, name them. I will. I will name them for the newly found maverick member, and it may be his constituency. We may be hearing, Mr.

Speaker, from his constituency in the Rhineland area that they may also be ignored, although I know the way this government operates. I sus pect-and I remember the member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway) the other day pointed out-I would expect that every last highway in his constituency will be paved, probably got four lanes, Mr. Speaker. I think the member for Portage is trying to set hims elf in the same category. Their constituencies may, indeed, be taken care of by this government clinging desperately, desperately, to its narrow margin of majority.

On election night, yes, indeed, the Premier did say a majority, is a majority, is a majority; but their majority is not something I would boast about at this present time. I am reminded, and this is about the only time, Mr. Speaker, I ever agreed with Sterling Lyon when he used to remind all governments of the day that they are only temporary governments.

I look at this government and I say to them that they should be very wary of what kind of policies they bring in for this province, because if ever there was a temporary government, it is this government, because we have seen in record time, in six months, how they have shifted gears. (Mr. Ben Sveinson, Acting Speaker, in the Chair) I look to the member for Rossmere (Mr. Neufeld), because I wish to be fair to them. I wish to track down for the debate today some of the comments that were made by Conservative MLAs in the election.

I have a leaflet from the candidate in Crescentwood, but I thought that was not particularly fair on the Conservative members. This was not an incumbent running for re-election. I did come across a leaflet from the member for Rossmere. It is even signed: Sorry I missed you, from the member for Rossmere. I wanted to be fair and see exactly what they were saying, Mr. Acting Speaker, only a few months ago. Can anyone forget the Gary Filmon team and those immortal words: making Manitoba strong? Making Manitoba strong? We are tenth out of 1 O economically.

We have increasing welfare rates, increasing unemployment rates on a daily basis. Plants are being closed, but it says here, making Manitoba strong. An Honourable Member: Read the rest of it. Mr. Ashton: Well, I will read the rest of it for the member for Rossmere, because I found some of his other comments. This is, by the way, six months ago, and I know that somebody, I believe it was Harold Wilson, once said that a week is a long time in politics.

Reading this, six months is an eternity, because this, it is hard to believe these were statements made by that member, whose honesty I admire, if not his political judgm ent, only six month ago. I might say that if this was circulated today and if politicians were subject to laws in terms of truth in advertising, this would most definitely be subject to criminal action based on misleading advertising. I will read what this member talked about, what this government was going to do if he was going to be elected. An improved economy-oh, yes, Mr. Acting Speaker, they were going to improve the economy.

Well, where are we today compared to six months ago? We have thousands mo re unemployed. We are tenth out of 10, and they were going to improve the economy. What I find most ironic are the comments in this leaflet on improving, strengthening the health care system. Strengthening the health care system? With the kind of budgeting that we are going to be seeing, the kind of actions of the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard), they were going to strengthen the health care system? We will be watching what they do in terms of Estimates. •

(1430) One I really liked was, they were going to improve the education system. Just six months ago. Improve

March 13 , 19 91 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANI TOBA 16 1 it? With what? Zero percent funding? Cutbacks in programs. Cutbacks in staff. Elimination of special needs programming. Is that what they were going to do to improve the education systems? This by the way is in the direct words of the member for Rossmere. It says on the top, an interview with Harold Neufeld. Why are you working so hard to be elected in Rossmere? To improve the educ ation sys tem, protect the environmen t, strengthen the health care system, keep taxes down.

That is what he said six months ago, and I will be interested to see how he votes on this throne speech, because six months later those very fine words of that member, who indeed may be honest, if not have the greatest of political judgment in my view, are being repudiated on a daily basis, Mr. Acting Speaker. I read further. So it talks about cutting taxes and this is a direct quote from the leaflet: City of Winnipeg taxes have skyrocketed. Mr. Acting Speaker -(int erjection)- they skyrocketed for individual homeowners. It was because of the reass essment brought in by who? By this government.

We warned them, and the member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman) warned them in committee repeatedly that they were going to send taxes for many homeowners skyrocketing. That by the way is not exclusively the case in the ci ty of Winnipeg. In my own cons ti tuenc y, homeowners faced increases in the range of $500, while a number of busi nesses faced major reductions of up to 25 percent of their taxload. What I find ironic now, Mr. Acting Speaker, is here we are and this government is cutting back in terms of education funding. What is going to happen?

Municipal taxes, school board taxes are going to increase dramatically despite those cuts in services. So where is the member for Rossmere (Mr. Neufeld) today talking about city of Win nip eg taxes skyrocketing when only six months later there is going to be more loaded on top of those property taxpayers in the city of Winnipeg, including in his own constituency? Well, Mr. Acting Speaker, I could read more from this leaflet, and I did not mean to single this out. I am not trying to single out the member for Rossmere.

This just happened to be one of the leaflets I was able to obtain, and I raised it with him because I do believe he is a forthright individual. I believe that he may, even in this debate, stand in his place an d repud iate those st ate men ts. -(interjection)- Well, the member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale) sug gests, he probably believes it. Maybe he does believe it. I suggest better, but I know -(interjection)- well, the member talks about increased spending. We know the minister's views on cutting back expenditures. We know where he would target.

We do not agree with where he targets, but he must admit that those statements, making Manitoba strong, ring hollow only six months later. Well, Mr. Acting Speaker, I reviewed in detail the campaign promises of the Conservatives in the past election. I could have gone back to 1988 and point to the broken promises-health care being the most obvious example. Does anyone rememberthe Premier(Mr. Filmon), the now Premier, standing at his opening press conference, with one of his cornerstones of the election campaign talking about a health care action plan for 1990?

Well, when I was Health critic I asked about it at the beginning of 1990. The Premier said, well, wait, there is still a whole year ahead. We are in 1991 , and where are we in terms of a health action plan? Do we have one? What kind of action do we have in health care? We have confrontation. We have increased waiting lists for surgery. I received a call jus t from a constituent, only Sunday, desperately seeking to have her husband be able to be admitted to the Concordia Hospital for needed surgery, exploratory surgery. We have seen, Mr.

Acting Speaker, what is happening in the health care system, but let us look at what they said in 1990, only a few short months ago, in terms of education. This party talked about maintaining inflation-plus increases in terms of education. How can anyone forget their pious statements about improving the education system? Are they now going to honestly say to the people of Manitoba, only six months later, that what they said then was not true? Are they going to say that? Are they going to try and convince people that they had no inkling of what was going to happen only six months ago?

Well, they have to deal with that major inconsistency in their views. Well, I went further. I looked at their economic platform, if you can call itthat. Well, we do know that in the election the government rejected what it calls job creation programs, and quite frankly, for the life of me, I do not understand why. They remind me of the words of the former member for Swan River,

16 2 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA March 13 , 19 91 Doug Gourlay, who was the Minister of Northern Affairs under the Sterling Lyon government, who was quoted as saying-and this is probably the sentime nts of the current so-called Minister of Northern Affairs, Mr. Acting Speaker, that welfare was cheaper than job creation. That was a direct quote. I think it was a rather stupid statement to make, but it was a comment that reflected the philosophy of that Conservative government. I believe that is their philosophy again.

They say we cannot afford to have job creation programs, and yet we have had a huge increase in the number of people on the welfare rolls, which is going to directly cost taxpayers money. Yes, indeed it is cheaper to put people on welfare, Mr. Acting Speaker, but what about the human cost? I recently was in many of the communi ties, Mr. Acting Speaker, just only a few days ago in my communi ty, my constituency, which has 90 percent unemployment. The commu nity of Thicket-Portage, for example, does not have all-weather road access. What were people saying?

They were saying they are told by Income Security they should get a job. Yet there are no jobs in the community. They are saying they do not want to be on welfare. They want jobs. They want job opportunities. Now this government, Mr. Acting Speaker, is going to remove the programs that they have put in place. -(interjection)- For the member for Portage, who has never set foot inside Thicket-Portage, Mr. Acting Speaker, let him mouth from his seat. He knows not of what he speaks.

He talks about the experience of having to own a business or else one does not have the right to talk about the government in terms of economic policies, et cetera. We remember his comments when he spoke, Mr. Acting Speaker, the member who is mo re concerned about the size of cabinet than he is about some of the major provincial issues. Let him speak if he wishes about the size of cabinet. I am talking about un em plo ymen t in the co mmu nity of Thicket-Portage. If the Conservatives want to know what was done, we had job creation programs.

We started the Northern Youth Corps Program, and you are going to be cutting it. So, Mr. Acting Speaker, let them not talk about the people of the commu nity of Thicket-Portage, because their record speaks for itself. It might also explain why in the last election out of the entire population of Thicket-Portage, only one person voted Conservative-only one person voted Conservative. The people in the communi ty of Thicket-Portage know the Conse rvative policies, and they did not buy the phony promises of 1988 and 1990.

They knew about the kind of agenda that the government would bring in if it had a majority, and here we are today with that agenda, Mr. Acting Speaker. -(interjection)- Well, what did they say to aboriginal people? They said to aboriginal people, generally, they are going to establish an economic development commission to deal with Native unem ployment. Mr. Acting Speaker, they are going to start up a commission, and they are going to destroy all the programs, the job creation programs. There is a word for that. It is "hypocrisy." How can they say they are going to have an economic development commission?

They said the same thing for the north, a northern development comm ission formed to outline a blueprint for sustainable growth. They said they were going to allow Northerners to set their own priorities in terms of economic development. Six months later, what are they doi ng? They are cutting programs. They are hatcheting programs. They are slashing programs. What is happening is that the people of northern Manitoba are being singled out, I believe, because of the sentiments of the now Deputy Premier.

When he made that statement about Northerners not voting right, I thought that the Premier would discipline him or at least disown the comments to some extent, in the perhaps wishy-washy way he did with the member for Rossmer e on multiculturalism. I thought there would be some sign that it was unacceptable. What did he do, Mr. Acting Speaker? He promoted the minister. He puts him in charge of Rural Development. He makes him Deputy Premier. He is one heartbeat away from being Premier of Manitoba. *

(1440) I mean in the 1950s that might have been acceptable. In the 1940s, it might have been acceptable, but in the 1990s, it is not acceptable to single out northern residents, to single out core area residents in Winnipeg, and north end residents, to single out many rural areas which are now finding that they are also being singled out for cuts. (Mr. Speaker in the Chair)

March 13 , 19 91 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANIT OBA 16 3 That is totally unacceptable from this minister, and he will have to accept the responsibility because he had the choice. He could have kept the member for Portage in cabinet -(interjection)- well, perhaps I do not want to suggest I am arguing for that. He could have kept the member for Rhineland in the cabinet. He could have thrown out the Minister, or so-called Minister, of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey), who was so categorically rejected in his approach by northern residents, Mr. Speaker, in the last el ecti on.

The Cons ervativ e Party was so categorically rejected in four out of the four seats, commu nities such as Thicket Portage, but instead he promoted him. Where does that leave me in terms of my conclusions about what is happening? I believe this government-a nd I have indicated that I believe it is going to be one of the most vicious governments in Manitoba history. It already is.

I think beyond that they are just proving that they are following the philosophy-and I know they do not like to accept comparisons to their federal counterpart, but who could forget the immo rtal words of John Crosbie when, a few years ago in response to a question about what the federal Conservative government would do if they were elected, he said, well, if I tell you that, we would never get elected? Who can forget those immortal words once again? Not much political judgmen t but a fair degree of honesty.

You know, I have often in this House suggested that the Conservatives might have, and may I use the term, Mr. Speaker, a hidden agenda. Yes, and they have risen one after another, they have risen, and they have said, there is no hidden agenda. The Premier (Mr. Filmon) said all through the election, what you see is what you get and then, of course, what happened on election night? A Tory is a Tory is a Tory, and a majority is a majority is a majority. Well, Mr. Speaker, that is what we have been saying to the people of Manitoba.

Give him a majority and all of a sudden it is not the Filmon team anymore, it is the Progressive Conse rvatives, the PCs, the same party as in Ottawa, the same party here. I hate to say this once again, when we ever accused them of having the same philosophy, they said, no, no, we are different. I mean they did everything, I looked at this leaflet, and you need a magnifying glass to see the name Progressive Conservative. It does say Man itoba Progressive Conservative- An Honourable Member: Did they not change the name, Steve? Mr. Ashton: Yes, they did change the name.

A few years ago they wanted to totally change the name. I do not know why they do not just call them sort of the whatever-you-want-during-the-election party because that is essentially what they were. Mr. Speaker, they tried to hide the label. What are they doing now? What is the difference between Brian Mulroney and the Premier (Mr. Filmon)? One is Prime Minister and one is Premier. There is one difference. There is no difference in terms of philo sophy. Brian Mulr oney is a classic Conse rvative.

He has led this country into a recession and now we have the Premier with his majority acting like a classic Conservative. I would say it is no surprise to any of us on this side. Calvin Coolidge, Herbert.Hoover, R. B. Bennett would not be spinning in their graves today watching this government, they would approve. It is the same philosophy, the same discredited philosophy, that led us from a recession into a depression in the 1920s and 1930s. For the life of me, I cannot understand it, Mr. Speaker.

I cannot understand how this government could sit there and say, well, we are not going to have job creation programs but in the meantime can see welfare rates increasing. The amount of money that is going to be spent on family services generally just in terms of basic supports, not on programs but basic supports, is going to increase. Where is the logic? Where is the economic logic? Well, there is no economic logic. Let us not forget the other similarities. The federal Cons ervatives sup ported free trade and the provincial Conservatives supported free trade.

You did not hear that much about it in the last election, I will admit that, and for good reason. Why would this Conservative government want to get involved in any debate on free trade? Free trade has failed this country. It has led to major layoffs. It has led to increased unemployment. It has failed this province. It has led to increased layoffs and increased unemployment. It is a failure. Why is it a failure? Because it is the same type of bank ru pt ide ology tha t the Conservatives always bring out when they have a majority. When they are in a minority, they are different, right? They are different.

They know that their policies are not going to get support from the

16 4 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA March 13 , 19 91 people of Manitoba, but when they have a majority they are sitting here pretty smugly now, thinking they can sit this out, weather it out for another few years, cut back, cut back, cut back. Well, Mr. Speaker, I have some news for them. If they think that during this session we are just going to sit back and watch them decimate 10 and 20 and 30 years of progress in this province, they are wrong.

I say to those members who profess to have an open mind, who say they will be voting with their conscience, to those members for whatever reason who have now stated that they will be voting with their conscience, as the member for Rossmere (Mr. Neufeld) will be doing, being faced with a decision of whether he is going to live up to his own words or the hollow words of this government, I say that this government is indeed a temporary government and there could be an election a lot sooner than they think. An Honourable Member: No, no way. Mr. Ashton : Well, I know the Conser vative members say, no way.

I would ask them not to have that arrogance that goes sometimes with all governments of a majority stripe that says that a government is somehow here, that is somehow more than what it is. Any government is only a temporary government. This government, by having betrayed the people of the province by changing from its stated words in only six months, is a government whose clock is ticking, a government where the time, the sands are running down on this government. It is only a matter of time before they have to be accountable to the people of this province.

You know what distresses me the most are the statements I have heard from some people that these are tough decisions, that somehow there is real agony on the Conservative government on these tough decisions. Well, that may be the case with some of the members of the Conse rvative government, but I will say publicly, I do not believe it is the case of all, in fact even a majority, because the Conservative party has always stood for cutting back the size of government. I believe that this government is using the excuse of the economic recession to cut back on the size of government.

It is getting rid of what it views as government waste. It is getting rid of what it feels is an oversized government. Let them be honest with the people of Manitoba. What we are seeing now is Tory ideology and Tory philosophy. It is not agonizing decisions. The only agony for too many of the members of the Conse rvative government, particularly the cabinet ministers, I believe, is that they are going to face political consequences. They do not agonize over what is going to happen to the people who are going to be denied services.

They are not agonizing over the people who are going to be without job opportunities, the people who are going to be forced on welfare. They are not agonizing. You know, I say that is not the case of all members, but for those who do agonize, truly agonize, I ask them, I beg of them, to say to their own members in the government, particularly in the cabinet, that it is unacceptable, to say to the Premier (Mr. Filmon) that he should live up to his words of only six months ago that there will be more of the sam e, the suppo sed moder ate Conse rvative philosophy that we saw when they were in a minority.

They have the choice. If they truly are agonized, if they truly are going to vote in terms of conscience, Mr. Speaker, they will not support this throne speech, because how can anyone, who in the last election talked about improving the education system, support the throne speech of a government that has a budget now that is going to result in school divisions, including my own area, getting zero percent, that is going to lead to major tax increases at the local level? How can they do that?

How can they talk about improving the health care system when it is being cut back, when it is being destroyed by the confrontationist policies of this Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard)? How can they talk about making Manitoba strong economically when we are 1 Oth out of 1 O? I really look, in this session in particular, for those who truly consider themselves to be moderates in the Conservative Party, to separate themselves from the right wing ideology that is being adopted on a daily basis. I believe, Mr. Speaker, what is happening is that we have a government that believes that misery loves com pany.

We have a government that believes that the solution to unemployment is to create more unemployment through government cutbacks, the R. B. Bennett-Herbert Hoover style of government. I believe we have a government that

March 13 , 19 91 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 16 5 believes if you do not write, you do not get from the government, in the words of the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey). I believe we have a government that in only six months with a majority has become so cynical that its words of only six months ago are absolutely fundamentally 100 percent meaningless. And we wonder why people become cynical about politics and politicians. How can the people of Manitoba not be cynical, having read those words from only six months ago, only six months ago, about making Manitoba strong? What we hear now, Mr.

Speaker, that this government is in a desperate situation. Times are not all that good; we are not strong, we are weak. We have to make all these tough decisions. Well, the people are becoming cynical, and I can tell the members of the Conservative Party that our party will be taking a different approach. We are talking to the people about what their concerns are. We are talking to people concerned about the future of education in this province, the massive cuts that are taking place.

We are talking to the people concerned about the future of our health care system. * (14 50) We were out there talking to the nurses when they were on strike about all their concerns-ye s, wages, but in terms of working conditions, and the many excellent ideas they have, something I might add, I believe only one member, or perhaps one or two-If there are others who were on the picket lines, they should indicate. I know the member for Portage was out on the picket lines. Perhaps that is one of the reasons he got bounced from the cabinet. We are not sure, Mr. Speaker.

I know that many did nottake the time to walk the picket lines and talk to the people. There may have been a few, but I know many who did not, but I must say we are listening on that. In terms of the economic policy, we are listening to northern communities and rural communi ties, with the agony they are going through, and there are many people in the city of Winnip eg who are faced with daily cutbacks and layoffs. Those are our concerns, and we are not going to make hollow promises to aboriginal people as this government-ta lking about they are going to sit down and define self-gove rnme nt.

Aborig inal people are defining self-government themselves; they do not need the patronizing attitude of this Conservative Party to them and the kind of daily cutbacks in programs we are seeing. The environment is the same thing as well. We are not going to sit there and piously talk about the environment, as does the Minister of Environment (Mr. Cummin gs) , and then ig nore ever y recommendation of every environmental group that was made on the bill, the amendment act to the environment bill in the last session. We will not do that. We will listen to the people. We will fight for the people of Manitoba.

We will bring forward the people's agenda, an agenda that looks forward in this province, that is not going to support the kind of vicious cutbacks that are going to make this government- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member's time has expired. Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Co-operative, Consumer and Corporate Affairs): I am very pleased to rise and speak on the motion to the throne speech as proposed by the member for St. Vital (Mrs. Render) and seconded by the member for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson). I, once again, greet you, Mr. Speaker, and I congratulate you on your reappointment to the Chair.

Mr. Speaker: Thank you. Mrs. Mcintosh: Your record of service and dedication to the well-being of this Chamber stands you in good stead, and you have our respect, Sir, for the diligence with which you approach your duties. It gives me pleasure as well to greet my colleagues on both sides of the House, despite the differing perspectives and philosophies found as one moves through the benches of the three caucuses. I believe-not all members believe this, the previous speaker obviously does not believe this-that all members do share one common goal.

I believe we all do want to see Manitoba do well, and we all want to see the people of Manitoba do well. I do not question the motives of the members opposite. I question perhaps their naivety, but I do not question their motives. It is unfortunate that they impugn ours. The throne speech, I believe, Mr. Speaker, outlines the thrust that government must take in the immediate future if Manitoba is to have the chance to do well that I believe all members wish it to have.

16 6 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA March 13 , 19 91 I sometimes feel frustrated, Mr. Speaker, when I consider the kinds of choices that I have had to make as an elected official. I ran for the school board locally in my home commu nity in 1980 knowing when I ran that our overall student population was on a rapid decline for a variety of reasons and external influences that actually in reality had more to do with civic policies than educational ones, but whatever the reasons for the decline the issue had to be addressed.

I ran for the board wanting to do more for education, wanting to do more for the individual student, wanting to do more for the future. I did not want to see our programming suffer as a result of the decline. I wanted available dollars to go towards enhancing the quality of education as opposed to the maintenance of buildings. During my nine years as a school trustee, I voted to close 10 schools. It was not an easy thing to do. The member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) knows that. He was Minister of Education for part of the time during that period.

It was not an easy thing to vote to close the local neighbourhood school 10 times over. It was not a popular thing to do, but it was the right thing to do. By putting brains and books ahead of bricks and buildings, the board of which I was a memb er was able to add new and innovative programming for the exceptionally gifted and for those who have to struggle hard to learn. We were able to do those things at a lower cost to the ratepayer. I know the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) will be very interested in this particular aspect since he does not know how school divisions can manage with less.

We were able to do these things in terms of programming in our division at a lower cost to the ratepayer than any of the 11 school divisions in the Winnipeg area, because we were not afraid to be firm about reducing expenditures, waste and mismanagement. I am very proud of the fact, Mr. Speaker, that over 60 percent of the graduates in our division go on to post-secondary education as opposed to the average of about 20 percent in other parts of the province. I mention this little bit of history, Mr.

Speaker, because I think it underscores the need for politicians to have the courage to do the right thing when the right thing needs to be done. When I voted to close that first school, there was a terrific personal price that I had to pay. At one point, there was even an offer to bring in the police for personal protection. Neighbours attacked me in the local stores and at the corner church where I was a lay reader, parishioners left the premises rather than to have to take communion from me. But I do believe that common sense ultimately prevails and that mo st people have commo n sense in abundance. (Mr.

Marcel Laurendeau, Acting Speaker, in the Chair) The citizens who were the most angry at the school closures were by and large the ones who cared the most. In the final analysis, they in fact became the ones who were the most helpful in ensuring the success of the consolidated schools. They returned me and the colleagues who stood firm with me on reducing expenditures to office over and over and over once again. It is often mentioned by members on the benches opposite that the majority of the school trustees in my division are Progressive Conservatives. Indeed they are, Mr.

Acting Speaker, but they do not run as Progressive Conservatives. I can only speak for myself, but I did not become a member of the Progressive Conservative Party until I had been a school trus tee for quite a while and had the experience of having to work under one particular NOP Minister of Education. An Honourable Member: Which one? Mrs. Mcintosh: Indeed, I will tell you.

I might never have become a Tory had it not been for the former member for Logan under whom the Education portfolio languished for a period of time, enough time for me to experience the NOP philosophy in action, enough time for me to meet and become an admirer of the then Education critic of the opposition, now the Premier of Manitoba (Mr. Filmon), and decide to join the party to which he belonged and try to make a difference. The member for Logan had the opportunity to inspire me to join the NOP. I wanted to make a difference then and I am still wanting to make a difference.

I long for the time when I can run for office and do the kinds of things I really want to do, to use money for all kinds of exciting, meaningful things ratherthan be forced to collect it from people who have worked hard to earn it and cannot afford to part with it and then have the misery of watching the money we collect disappear like magic, Mr. Acting Speaker, into that misty, mystical thing called interest. The minute money hits the government of Manitoba coffers, it stops being money that you can use and

March 13 , 19 91 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 16 7 it turns into mist. I want it to become money that you can use again. It is no fun getting elected and having to clean up other people's messes, but I am not afraid to clean up other people's messes. In 1988 when I realized that the provincial debt had literally doubled during the short time that the NDP had been in office to the point where $1.6 million a day was being spent just to pay the interest on that debt I was shocked. I heard the member earlier today say that $1.6 million, $1.5 million was nothing to be concerned about.

I am not surprised to hear him make that statement, because clearly it was nothing for them to be concerned about, and they were willing to kiss it goodbye into the moonlight, have it disappear across the waves as interest on the debt. I know the opposition constantly tries to keep us from mentioning their record. They keep saying we cannot blame people for things that happened three years ago. They consistently mention Sterling Lyon, but we can never mention Howard Pawley who came after Sterling Lyon.

The fact of the matter is that it is critically important that their record never be forgotten because their record plays a very large and signi ficant role in putting Manitoba in the position that it is in today, cause and effect, cause and effect. In order for this House to understand why we have to do what we now have to do, they must never forget what brought us to this juncture. •

(1500) The NDP, Mr. Acting Speaker, in six short years doubled a provincial debt that had taken over 100 years to accumulate, and I would like the member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman) to think about the fact, think about the magnitude of the wound- An Honourable Member: What about Saskatchewan? What about Devine? What about Lougheed and Getty? What about Mulroney? Mrs. Mcintosh: What about talking about your own jurisdiction instead of constantly referring to Ottawa or some other provincial jurisdiction? Talk about this province- The Acting Speaker (Mr. Laurendeau): Order, please. Mrs.

Mcintosh: -t his situation, your record, your performance, your legacy, then we can talk about things that you can actually do something about and impact something. I want you to think again, think again about the magnitude of the wound that you inflicted upon this province. The NOP in six years, and I am going to repeat it so you can hear it, because you were not listening the first time, and I will be quiet so you can listen. I will be quiet -(interjection)- and wait for you to be quiet, and then I will say it again.

The NDP in six short years doubled a provincial debt that had taken over 100 years to accumulate. That is a massive achievement, awesome. You want to introduce Devine or Wells or Premier Bob or any of the other Premiers, then you do not want to talk about the situation here. You cannot avoid the situation here by talking about situations elsewhere, much as you would like to. $1.6 million a day Manitobans have to bring forward every day of the year.

Every day of the year Manitobans have to reach into their pockets and pull out $1.5 million just to pay the interest on the debt that you racked up on the opposite side of the House. That is every day, no holidays, no vacation, no weekends of rest, every day, day after day after day. You know in the opposition benches what we know over here that that is $1.6 million a day that we cannot spend on health care or on education or on family services or even, Mr. Acting Speaker, on the debt. We cannot even spend that $1.6 million a day on the debt, because it is interest.

It is as useful to the people of Manitoba as swamp gas. The former government, with all the best intentions in the world, thought it could spend its way into the hearts of people making them happy in the short term and believing in all sincerity like innocent children that tomorrow would take care of itself. The NOP had a wonderful time at the party, but now it is the morning after the night before, and the people have chosen us to come in and try and clean up the mess. The mess consists of first and foremost a massive debt. That party was expensive and it was all put on a credit card.

Contrary to the impression the opposition is trying to leave with the media, we have been consistent in the message that we have put out to the public. I knocked on every door in my constituency, every door except the cell doors in Headingley, and that was only because they would not let me in. At every opportunity I told people that I wanted to try and get the burden of debt off our backs. I told them that a deficit was something to worry about. I

16 8 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA March 13 , 19 91 told them that a deficit is what you have when you have less than you had when you had nothing. The Premier told people that we were worried about the debt we carried and that he wanted to keep taxes down. -(interjection)- Mr.

Acting Speaker, if the Leader of the Opposition thinks that having a mortgage is the same as having a mortgage and every credit card in town charged to the limit so that when the bill collector leaves there is no money left to buy food for the table, then he is making an analogy that I do not understand, which is why I am on this side of the House and he is on that side. The Premier, during the election, told people that we were worried about the debt we carried and that he wanted to keep taxes down and that he was pledged to getting control of government spending, which is part and parcel of keeping taxes down.

The opposition's problem is that they either do not understand that or they do not believe that or both. They cannot conceive of a group of men and women being elected to this Legislature as they have been, who would not resort as they always did to taking the easy way out and just raising taxes again and again and again whenever they could not muster the courage to do the right thing, which is often the hard thing and the uncomfortable thing, but the necessary thing. The Speaker has been known to say the Legislature is not a tea party. Neither is it a popularity contest.

It is a place, I hope, where responsible decisions are made by people who care about the future, by people who look to tomorrow as well as to today. We are committed to maintaining and, where possible, to enhancing our essential services. We may have to do without the extras for awhile until we get things back on track, but I believe that unless or until we do get things back on track, we run the risk of jeopardizing those very essential services that we value so much.

Like the family that I referred to earlier who borrows to the hilt and finds that after the bill collector leaves there is no money left for groceries, Manitoba has to pause and get its priorities straight. The people have indicated their displeasure with the high -rolling high-s pe nding hab its of governments everywhere. We have kept personal taxes down. We have in fact decreased them by 2 percent.

That is not an easy thing to do, but we have done it, and we will do everything in our power to continue on that course for the sake of the people who for too long have had to pay and pay and then pay some more for things that have long since disappeared. -(interjection)- The Acting Speaker (Mr. Laurendeau): Order, please. Would the honourable members at the back please come to the loge and carry on their conversations there or out in the halls. Thank you. Mrs. Mcintosh: Is this counting? Are my minutes ticking by? -(interjection)- They have heard this message. This message is for you to hear. Mr.

Acting Speaker, I invite the member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman) to stand now and give his message. An Honourable Member: Do you want me to take some of your time? An Honourable Member: She said to put up or shut up. Mrs. Mcintosh: That is right. People have had to pay and pay and pay and then pay some more- Point of Order The Acting Speaker (Mr. Laurendeau): Order, please. Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Yes, I missed, Mr. Acting Speaker, whether the member wanted me to address some of the issues during her time and her speech. If that is the case, I would be glad to do that at this time. The Acting Speaker (Mr.

Laurendeau): The honourable mini st er, you hav e the floor. -(interjection)- It is not a point of order. *

(1510) Mrs. Mcintosh: It was not meant to be a point of order. I woul d prefer that if memb ers have comments to make, they make them when they have the floor and not while I have it. *** Mrs. Mcintosh: I do not want my children and my neighbour's children and my constituents' children to have to continue paying throughout their lives for things that were used in the past and which have long si nce di sappeared. I look at my own department, and when I listen to the needs of consumers and when I see how conscious they are

March 13 , 19 91 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 16 9 of costs and of trying to stretch their dollars, then I am more convinced than ever of the need to hold the line on taxes. Contrary to the tongue-in-cheek comments made recently in one of our local papers by one of our better known political journalists, this government cares about the consumer, perhaps most of all because we are willing to try and leave more money in the pockets of that consumer. We are all consumers. We want to be able to buy what we need, and we want what we need to be available to us for consumption.

That means there has to be a happy marriage in Consumer and Corporate Affairs. There have to be companies able to function-I know the members opposite do not want to hear this, but it is true-and produce products for sale, and there have to be consumers with enough mon ey in their pockets to take advantage of the availability of produce. We do no one a favour when we drive businesses out of Manitoba, taking away with them, when they go, jobs that are needed as well as affordable merchandise which can be purchased by the wage earners who are employed by the businesses. Corporations and consumers need each other.

They should exist in a symbiotic relationship which benefits both. I want to thank the previous minister of my department, the member for Portage la Prairie (Mr. Connery). I want to thank him most sincerely for all the very good work that he did in establishing positive relationships that have been struck with the various stakeholders and interest groups who dialogue on a regular basis with my department.

They are excellent men and women, whose sincere interest in creating the partnership that is needed to stre ngth en our economy and the marketplace will be most helpful to me as minister in the Co-operative, Consumer and Corporate Affairs portfolio. So I thank my predecessor for establishing those lines of commun ication and for building the partnership that is required. I have been meeting with as many people as possible during my first few weeks as minister, and I have been listening to their viewpoints.

Indeed, if the opposition members wish to raise issues to me that for whatever reason they chose not to raise when they were in power, I would be very pleased to listen to them as well. I welcome their input if it would be useful to the people of Manitoba. I look forward to the member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway) at some point reintroducing his numerous private member's bills, which his government chose not to introduce when they were in power for six or seven years. I do not know why the member for Elmwood was not able to persuade his own caucus to introduce these bills when they were in government, Mr.

Acting Speaker. I am sure it must have been very disappointing to him to have his own caucus refuse to act upon his suggestions, but nonetheless I am willing to explore his ideas as he puts them before me to see if there is merit in them for the people of this province. I reject no source that might be helpful to the people. I look forward to a positive relationship. I am proud to be able to introduce legislation of my own in this session, and again I must give credit to my predecessor, the honourable member for Portage la Prairie (Mr.

Connery), for the initiatives he set in motion regarding the lock-off legislation for Centra Gas. He started the process, and it is my privilege to follow it through to completion. I was genuinely shocked yesterday to hear the member for St. Johns (Ms. Wasylycia-Leis) referring to this legislation as legislation for our corporate friends. I sincerely hope that is not a caucus position. I cannot believe that a member of this Assembly, especially one who has been around for as long as the member for St. Johns, would show so little understanding of the complexities of this issue. This is an opposition, Mr.

Acting Speaker, that purports to stand up for the poor and the underdog and the people who are burdened with the sins of others. I thought the member for St. Johns would care about the poor in this city, and I trust it is a personal opinion she was expressing and not the caucus position. Perhaps the member for St. Johns would benefit from communic ating with some of the citizens who have taken the time to contact me on this issue.

I would be pleased to put her in touch with them, some of them anyhow, so that she could explain to them how she feels about this issue, so she can tell them how she feels that they should have to pay other people's bills, even when they have to make extreme sacrifices to make their own payments. I think they would be very interested to hear her tell them that it is to their benefit and their ultimate long-term good to pick up costs that they did not incur and that they cannot afford to meet because

17 0 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MAN ITOBA March 13 , 19 91 the gas company, by virtue of a court order, has no other way to recoup its losses. Perhaps she could have sat through some of the hearings held by the PUB on this issue to listen to the people of Manitoba express a view that is in direct opposition to the one she expressed in the House here yesterday. Maybe she did not mean what she said yesterday. I hope that is the case. Maybe she does not want to hear what the overburdened, honest, hardworking, fed-up people of this province have to say on such issues. -(interjection)- Well, I care, Mr. Acting Speaker.

Legislation that will allow Centra Gas to discontinue service to delinquent accounts will be introduced this session. Safeguards will be built into that legislation to ensure that no individuals or families will be put at risk during our cold winter months. This is not a favour to our corporate friends, Mr. Acting Speaker. Can you hear me, Mr. Acting Speaker, over the din from the benches opposite? -(interjection)- Good. This is not a favour for our corporate friends. This is sensible, fair and realistic legislation asked for by the people of Manitoba.

I have heard a lot of comments bandied about during this Throne Speech Debate, and I would like to just refer to a couple of them that I have heard because I quite frankly do not understand them. I pose questions that perhaps can be answered in other speeches as they come forward. I keep hearing the NOP say they care about the workers and I would like to ask them, who are the workers? What do they mean when they say worker? Is a homemaker a worker? I will give them some specific examples, maybe they can tell me if these people are workers. Is a priest a worker?

I do not want to do as the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) did and go like this to get the noes or the yeses coming forward, but feel free, if the urge comes upon them, I do not mind. Is a priest a worker? Is a small businessman a worker? Is a nurse a worker? -(interjection)- Oh, they finally answered one is a worker. How about a doctor? Does a doctor work? -(interjection)- A nurse works but not a doctor, okay. A plumber, does a plumber work? Does a truck driver work? Who works in Manitoba? Do people who belong to unions work? Do people who do not belong to unions work? Is a teacher a worker?

How about volunteers, do volunteers work? Do employers work? Should employers be able to earn money from the work that they do? How much should employees be allowed to earn? When the NOP say they care about the workers, do they mean they do not care about those who do not work, like the unemployed? I keep hearing them talk about the worker, Mr. Acting Speaker, as if the worker is a breed apart. I know a lot of people who work very hard. Some of them may be called workers by the NOP, and some of them may not be called workers by the NOP, but in my books they are all workers.

Except by workers of the world, I include people in every strata and every station of life. *

(1520) I keep hearing the opposition talk about the ordinary Manitoban. I even heard one the other day refer to the little guy. I do not know who that person is. I have never yet met a person who was not extraordinary and unique. Who is it that is ordinary? The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer), is he ordinary? If so, what makes him ordinary? If not, why is he not? If he is not ordinary, what sets him apart from the mythical ordinary Manitoban?

I have been raised to believe in the value of the individual human being to see each person as special, to see each person as having a gift to contribute, whether it is a nurse or a doctor. I do not and will not believe that a person should be considered a nonworker because the work that he or she does is not deemed by the NOP to be real work. I have trouble with the socialist philosophy. They talk about ideology from the other side of the House, and the only ideology I consistently see bandied forward is the ideology that wafts to us from the benches opposite.

I believe that the socialist philosophy in its pure form is a benevolent theory. It is a benevolent theory. It is a caring theory. It is a benevolent theory, and I only have one objection to it: it does not work. There was a man named Cecil Palmer, whom I do not know, but he once made a comment that I think reflected some truisms. He said that socialism is workable only in heaven where it is not needed and in hell where they have already got it. I do not like the ideology that makes everybody equal at the lowest common denominator.

I believe, what I believe the members on this side of the House believe that does not seem to be apparent in the beliefs espoused by the members opposite, that an

March 13 , 19 91 LE GISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 17 1 individual can more wisely determine the outcome of this fate than can the state determine that fate for him. Perhaps I have more faith in the individual wisdom of the extraordinary men and women of this province than the opposition has. Perhaps that is why I would like them to have some money left in their pockets after the tax collector leaves. I would like to see what they could do with that money if they could be perm itted to keep some of it. The memb er for Flin Flon (Mr.

Storie) yesterday had suggested that we should spend our way out of this recession, and that is a wonderful wish. It is a wonderful wish but to make that wish come true, to spend our way out of the recession as the memb er for Flin Flon wishes, we would need to have some money. Why do we not have any money? We do not have any money because we have interest on the debt that goes away like swamp gas-every day $1.5 million. There is no money to spend our way out, and that is the reality that the mem bers opposite absolutely refuse to acknowledge.

They do not even want to hear us use the word "reality." Reality is the "r" word to the opposition. That is the "r" word that they refuse to say. That is the "r" word that they refuse to acknowledge. Reality is the opposition's "r" word, and they are afraid to say it. It even has more than four letters, they are still afraid to say it. They are like compulsive gamblers. They think that wishing will make things happen, and it will not. I started off, Mr. Speaker, by saying that I believe that all mem bers care about the well-being of our province and its people.

They sit in the House and I sit in the House, we jab, we jeer, we heckle, we yelp and we howl like little puppies and kittens at play, but this is serious business that we are about. They know it, we know it, and we are all in it together. I know the mem bers opposite care even if they do not care to listen. I know they care about what happens to the people of Manitoba. There are good people on that side of the House, and I do not question their motives or the depth of their concern. I do question their methods.

I do question their ideology, but I do not question their goodness, and I do not question their motives. (Mr. Speaker in the Chair) I honestly believe that we all have the best interests of our constituents at heart. I honestly believe that. Whenever the memb ers opposite, as did the previous speaker, rise and say that there are some in this House who do not care, who do not have the best interests of the people at heart, when the memb er for Thompson (Mr.

Ashton) stands and impugns the motives on this side of the House, I will retaliate with angry words, but I will not retaliate with the same accusation that he puts over here because I do not believe it. We care very deeply about the people of this province and the future of this province, butthe NOP are hopelessly naive if they think that they hold the monopoly on caring. They do not like monopolies, but they say they have a monopoly on caring, and they are naive to believe that.

We care enough about the future of this province and the people of this province that we are willing to do the things that need to be done without resorting to taking the easy way out, without caving into the requests of every special interest group that walks past our caucus room door. We ask for the support of the opposition. We ask for their assistance.

I do not think we will get it, but we ask for it in any regard, because their support would be welcomed not only by us but by the citizens of Manitoba who want to live in a province where people can once again grow and achieve and prosper, a place where success can be found, a place wher e pride an d oppor tu nity and independence exist, and a place which will not burden our children for generations to come. I know there are mem bers opposite with children. I know they care about people.

I know if they stop and think they will not want to burden their children for gener ations to come with taxes that are being paid on the things that we enjoy today. I want Manitoba to be a place which will not burden our children but which will inspire them to greatness and to strength. Mr. Speaker, I ask for support for the throne speech, and I thank you for your attention in this House. Mr. Nell Gaudry (St. Boniface): Monsieur le president, premierement laissez-moi encore une fois vous feliciter pour le beau travail que vous faites en cette grand Chambre. (Translation) Mr.

Speaker, first of all, allow me once again to congratulate you for the excellent work you do in this great Chamber.

17 2 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA March 13 , 19 91 {English) I would li ke also to welcome the new Sergeant-at-Arms and the new memb ers who were elected in 19 90 and would like to congratulate the two new mem bers in cabinet, the honourable member for Assiniboia (Mrs. Mcintosh) and the honou rable memb er for Kir kf iel d Park (Mr . Stefanson). I also would like to welcome again the pages. I am sure they will enjoy working with the members of this Legislature.

Monsieur le president, c'est toujours un honneur pour un elu parleme ntaire d'utiliser son droit privi legie pour s'adresser a une si augus te assemblee telle que l'Assemblee legislative du Manitoba. Membres du gouvernement ou mem bres de !' oppo sition, nous som mes avant tout des Manitobains et des Manitobaines dont la tache primordiale est le respect integral du mandat que nous a confie l'electorat de notre province, notre si belle province, le Manitoba. (Translatlon) Mr.

Speaker, it is always an honour for any elected parliamentarian to use their special right to address such an august assembly as the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. Whether we be mem bers of the governmen t or of the opposition, we are above all Manitobans, men and women, whose primary task is to totally fulfill the mandate the electorate entrusted to us in our province, our such beautiful province, Manitoba.

Ce mandat va jusqu'a !'imm ense responsabilite de defendre les interets des Canadians et des Canadiennes de notre province, que cela soit dans le chaos economique que nous vivons actuellement, ou que cela soit dans le tumul te constitutionnel de Brian Mulr oney. Car, disons-le franchement, Brian Mulr oney a surpasse son desir assoiffe de voir apparaitre son nom dans les dictionnaires et les encyclopedies.

Dorenavant, ii sera ecrit a tout jamais dans les annales de l'h istoire: "Brian Mulr oney, premier ministre du Canada 19 84-1992, instigateur du declin de I' emp ire conservateur, artisan de la brisur e de l'uni te canadienne, comploteur de la chute economique du Canada pour le plus grand interet des multi-nationales americaines".

II est de plorable que le gouver nemen t conservateur de notre province semble se resigner a cette re ali te, en epousant une certaine nonchalance dans l'attente passive des prochaines elections federales dont les resultats balayeront, au grand probable, le Canada de toute cette piece de theatre ridicule. • (153 0) Car, ii n'y a rien ni de positif, ni de creatif dans ce Discours du trone. Nous sommes maintenant a la deuxieme session du deuxieme mandat de ce gouvernement, et tout ce que l'on peut lire et entendre dans le Discours du trone, est que le gouvernement federal est le mechant et le seul fautif.

Je crois que le gouvernement provincial devra se regarder pour voir ce qu'il a a offrir au Manitoba. Ouand on realise la hausse du taux de faillites et le taux actuel du chomage, ii est curieux de se faire dire que l'economie manitobaine est la plus stable et la plus diversifiee de tout le pays. Monsieur le president, ii semble evident que les commun ications entre les conservateurs du Manitoba et les conservateurs d'Ottawa doivent etre emb rouillees.

Le Discours du trone pretend aviser la population que la recession et la baisse des paiements de transfert federaux ont de lourdes consequences pour les finances de la province et compromettent les realisations du gouvernement. Mais Monsieur le president, tout le monde salt deja que nous sommes actuellement en recession, tout le monde sait deja que Michael Wilson, le ministre federal "conservateur" des Finances a decide de baisser les paiements de transfert. Ce que nous ne savons pas, par contre, ce sont les intentions du gouvernement pour remedier a la situation.

Ce sont des solutions, des idees et du leadership dont nous avons besoin dans notre province. De menacer de poursuivre le gouvernement federal en justice ne reduira pas la liste d'attente pour les operations cardiaques a l'Hopi tal de Saint-Bo nif ace; de me nacer d'emm ener le gouvernement federal devant les tribunaux ne reduira pas le nombre de femmes et d'enfants abuses sexuellement ou psychologiquement. Monsieur le president, en ma qualite de depute, une personne au chomage est un chomeur de trop,

March 13 , 19 91 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 17 3 une personne pour qui tous les efforts devraientetre rnis en oeuvre afin qu'elle trouve de l'ernploi. C'est bien trop facile de blamer le gouvernement federal tout en creant une politi que si peu productive, afin de faire oublier a la population qu 'apres tout, meme si on epouse la meme philo sophie car on appartient au rneme parti politique, Brian Mulr oney et Michael Wilson eux, sont les responsables malveillants. Ceci deviant une comedie qui n'est plus comique du tout.

Certains rnembres du gouvernernent provincial n'ont-ils pas contribue a cette pagaille en appuyant Brian Mulr oney au congres a la chefferie du Parti conservateur en 198 3? Quand on regarde Air Canada, Radio-Canada, Standard Aero, le CN, sans mentionner le cadeau au cousin "conservateur" Don Getty, avec le demenagement de la Division du marketing de la Fondation des Loteries en Alberta, on realise alors que la prosperite economique de notre province est belle et bien en peril. Merci aux conservateurs, et mer ci aux neo-democrates avant eux.

Encore une fois, aucune direction concrete afin de sortir de la presente recession n'est amorcee dans le Discours du trone. Monsieur le president, je dois egalement sou lever certaines inquietudes en ce qui concerne le dossier du libre echange entre le Canada, les Etats-Unis et le Mexique. Dans le Discours du trone, le gouvernement ne fait qu'en effleurer le sujet en mentionnant qu'il suivra de pres les negociations afin de veiller aux interets du Manitoba.

Mais Monsieur le president, quel est le role d'un gouvernement si ce n'est celui de prendre des initiatives en vue de preserver les justes interets de notre province? Le role d'un gouvernement n'est pas un de spectateur silencieux dans une salle de cinema a qui l'on distribue du popcorn a l'entracte; le role du gouvernement n'est pas de supporter le bon vouloir d'Ottawa. Je reconnais que le proverbe patience et longueur de temps ne font que force et courage peut fort bien s'appliquer, face a toutes les bevues commises par les conservateurs federaux, mais enfin quand cela va-t-il finir?

Monsieur le president, j'espere de tout coeur que le gouvernement provincial a !'intention de faire beaucoup plus que de su ivre de pres les negociations sur le libre echange entre le Canada, les Etats-Unis et le Mexique. II faut absolument que l'erreur ne soit pas repetee. Nous voyons deja trop clairement que I' Accord du libre echange avec les Etats-Unis n'est fructueux que pour les Etats-Unis.

Encore tout derniere men t, en Colom bia Britannique les brasseries Labatt et Molson ont offi ciellem ent porte plai nte contra certaines br asseries americaines qu' elles accusent d'exporter leur biere au Canada a un prix tel que des mesur es anti-dumping s'appliqueraient. II faut agir et agir vite. Ce sont des emplois qui en dependent; c'est le pouvoir d'achat qui en depend; c'est notre avenir economique tout entier qui en depend et le gouvernement provincial doit exiger une representation manitobaine equitable lors des consultations du gouvernernent federal sur ce sujet.

Monsieur le president, je trouve quelque peu ironique de la part du gouverne ment d'admettre, dans le Discours du trone, que "L'imp6t sur le revenu des particuliers au Manitoba se place en deuxieme position parmi les plus eleves au pays". Et le gouvernement de rajouter que "Nous avons pratiquement tous les impots qui existent dans le pays".

Tout en etant soulage de savoir que le gouvernement a enfin realise quelque chose que tous les Manitobains et toutes les Manitobaines savant deja depuis bien longtemps, parce que ces taxes et cet impot sortent de leur portefeuille, je me demande quand meme ce que le gouvernement a fait a date, et ce qu'il va faire dans l'avenir afin de transmettre un message clair a Messieurs Wilson, Mulr oney et Compag nie, a l' effet que les Manitobains et les Manitobaines, non seulement paient bien au-dela de leur part d'imp6t, mais qu'en plus, la part qui est supposee leur revenir au travers des paiements de transfert, en realite ne reviendra pas du tout.

En res ume, le gouvernement "conservateur" federal collecte des taxes et l'impot sur le revenu en disant a la population qu'une certaine

partie de ces argents preleves leur reviendra au travers des paiements de transfert aux provinces, et soudain, sans crier gare, a la su ite d'une decision sinon un ilaterale du moins arbitraire, annonce a la

17 4 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA March 13 , 19 91 population canadienne qu'une certaine portion de la portion qui leur revient deja de plein droit, s'est evaporee en fumee su ite au bon vouloir des dirigeants federaux. *

(1540) Le gouvernement provincial n'annonce aucune mesur e afin de rassurer la population manitobaine qu'il a dresse un plan d'action pour contrecarrer les projets d'ordre despotique d'Ottawa. Monsieur le president, en ce que concerne le dossier des affaires urbaines, j'aimerais feliciter le gouvernement d'avoir endosse la politique du Parti liberal qui envisage la reduction du nombre de sieges au conseil municipal de la ville de Winnipeg.

Je ne pense pas necessaire de reiterer ce qui a deja ete dit a propos du comite nouvellement appointe car le gouvernement sait maintenant qu'il avait bel et bien tort en faisant les appointements politiques qu'il a juge mauvais de faire. J'ai mer ais neanmoins app or te quelques preoccupations personnelles sur ce sujet. A mon avis, le gouvernement ne semble pas realiser que la question va bien au-dela de la red uction du nom bre de sieges au conseil mu nicipal. Je pense que la situation demande une restructuration autant electorale qu'administrative.

Par exemple et ce, a la veille du vingt-et-unieme siecle, le systeme mun icipal pourrait evoluer au point de voir les demandes de construction des perrons et des garages etre traitees de fa9on administrative, sans pour cela etre le sujet d'une presentation automatique et tout ce que cela implique, dev ant le comite co mmun autaire concerne. Mais personnellement ce qui me preoccupe le plus , Monsieur le president, est l'avenir des francophones et de Saint-Boniface dans tout cela. Nulle part dans le Discours du trone ii n'y a mention de garanties de services en fran9ais pour les francophones et pour Saint-Boniface.

Cela me tracasse d'autant plus qu'il n'y a aucune mention des services en fran9ais en general dans le Discours du trone.

Rien n'est mentionne a propos de I' absence d'un francophone a la Cour d'appel du Manitoba; OU de la pr opos ition de re unir de nouv eau et a Saint-Boniface le Bureau de I' education fran9aise et la Direction des ressources educatives fran9aises; OU de la nomination d'un autre juge francophone a la Cour provinciale a Saint-Boniface; OU la creation d'un centre de traduction juridique a Saint-Boniface qui, desservant l'Ouest canadien et les Maritimes, aurait de tr§s bonnes retombees economiques; ou de mentionner ou en est le dossier sur la Maison Teresa; etc., etc., etc.

Encore une fois, rien de concret en ce qui concerne la francophonie au Manitoba et cela est, je le repete, tres navrant. (Translatlon) This man date includes the imm en se responsibility of defending the interest of Canadians in our province, whether this be in the midst of the economic chaos that we are currently experiencing or whether it be in the midst of the constitutional commotion caused by Brian Mulr oney. Let us be frank, Brian Mulroney has surpassed his overweaning desire to see his name appear in dictionaries and encyclopedias.

From now on, it will be written forever in the annals of history: Brian Mulr oney, Prime Minister of Canada, 1984-1992; instigator of the decline of the Conservative empire; artisan of the rupture of Canadian unity; mastermind behind the economic fall of Canada, working for the greater interest of American mul tinationals. It is deplorable that the Conservative government in our province seems to be resigned to that reality in espousing a certain nonchalance by passively waiting for the next federal elections whose results will, in all probability, put an end to this ridiculous comedy of errors in Canada.

For there ls nothing positive and nothing creative in this Speech from the Throne. We are now in the second session of the second mandate of this government and all we can read and hear in the Speech from the Throne is that the federal government is the bad guy and the only one at fault. I think that the provincial government should look at itself and see what it has to offer to Manitobans. When we see the increase in the bankruptcy rates and the current unem ployment rates, Mr. Speaker, it is curious for us to hear that the Manitoba economy is the most stable and most diversified in the entire country.

It seems obvious that communications between the Conser vatives in Manitoba and Conservatives in Ottawa must be fuzzy. The Speech from the Throne seeks to inform the population that the recession and the drop in federal

March 13 , 19 91 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MAN ITOBA 17 5 transfer payments are having negative impacts on the finances of the province and are compromising the government's projects and plans but, Mr. Speaker, everybody already knows that we are now in a recession. Everybody already knows that Michael Wilson, the Tory federal Minis ter of Finance, has decided to lower the transfer payments. What we do not know, however, are the government's intentions to remedy the situation. What we need are solutions, ideas and leadership in this province.

Threatening to prosecute the federal government will not reduce the waiting list for heart operations at the St. Boniface Hospital, threatening to take the federal government before the courts will not reduce the number of women and children who are sexually or psychologically abused. Mr. Speaker, for me as an elected member, an unem ployed person is one unem ployed person too many, a person for whom all efforts must be made to find that person a job.

It is much too easy to blame the federal government while creating a policy that is so unproductive in order to make the people forget that in the end, even if the same philosophy is espoused because they belong to the same political party, Brian Mulr oney and Michael Wilson are the ones who are malevolently responsible. This is becoming a comedy that is no longer funny at all. Did some memb ers of the provincial government not contribute to this mess by supporting Brian Mulr oney during the leadership conference of the Conservative Party in 19 83?

When we look at Air Canada, the CBC, Standard Aero, CN, without mentioning the gift given to that Tory cousin, Don Getty, by moving the Marketing Division of the Lotteries Foundation to Alberta, we realize that the economic prosperity of our province is definitely in jeopardy. Thanks to the Conservatives, and thanks to the New Democrats before them. Once again, no concrete plan to get out of this current recession is broached in the Speech from the Throne. Mr. Speaker, I must also raise a certain numb er of concerns regarding the issue of free tr

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-2-5
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 2nd hansardpdf 5.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	43a2c2e9a505c040bba5f148ef8d4e2e393f834a

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