Volume XL Tuesday - Fr< ,· Province of Newfoundland FORTIETH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND Second Session VERBATIM REPORT (Hansard} Speaker: Honourable Patrick McNicholas Number 35 20 May 1986 ~ t.\ ftl {:\ !1 ,.

The House met at ~:00 p.m. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, 'please! Before calling Statements By Ministers, on Friday I said I would consider whether it was appropriate for an bon. member to table a document, such as a Telex, by means qf rising on a point of order. Following the rulings of previous Speakers of this House ·I must rule that while it may be in order in certain circumstances, for example, during Question Period, for an bon. member to table a document, such as a Telex, which the bon.

Leader of the Opposition sought to . table, it is not in order for the hon. the Leader of the Opposition to attempt to table the document by way of rising on a point of order. Statements by Ministers MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Transportation. MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker, I wish at this time to inform the hon. House of my department's plans to call tenders for highway improvement and construction projects.

These tender calls will involve resurfacing of several roads throughout the Province and the replacement of an existing Bailey bridge at Pinsents Brook, near Cooks Harbour, with a new concrete bridge. I would like to point out that all these projects are 100 per cent provincially funded. As this bon. House is aware, I L2038 May 20, 1986 Vol XL announced on November 13 , last year, Government's plans to . call early tenders for eight highway improvement and construction projects under a cost-shared agreement with the federal government.

Also, on February 26 of this year, I announced government's plan to call early tenders for seventeen highway improvement and construction projects funded 100 per cent by the provincial government. The tendering process for these earlier announced projects is nearly completed. The ten projects, which I am announcing today represent another phase of my department's practice to tender as early as possible projects for this coming construction season. Mr.

Speaker, the phasing of tender calls has had a positive and significant effect on the construction industry and has permitted 'my department to carry out major work on the Province's road an bridge network - the benefits of which are felt for many years. With the tenders already called, these additional projects I am announcing today, will further stimulate the Province's construction industry and will provide much needed employment for construction workers. Today I wish to announce to the hon. House of Assembly that my department will call tenders this week for the following projects: A.

Resurfacing 5. 3 Kilometers of a

section of Route 4 70 from Port aux Basques towards Isle aux Morts. This will complete the resurfacing of route 4 70 which began three years ago from Port aux Basques to Isle aux Morts Brook Bridge. No. 35 R2038

B. Complete the paving of Grand Bay West Road, a distance of some 1.3 Kilometers. C. Resurfacing Route 407 from the Trans-Canada Highway at Tompkins to St. Andrews, a distance for 5.1 Kilometers. D. Pave the approaches to Ryan's Brook Bridge at O'Regans. This bridge was built last year and the paving will complete the construction of the new bridge and approaches. · E. Pave 3 • 5 Kilometers of a

section of Route 204 from Long Beach towards Hodges Cove. The paving of this highway was started a number of years ago and my department is endeavouring to continue its efforts to pave this very important road link for the people of S~uthwest Arm. F. Resurfacing a 6.1 Kilometer

section of Route 460 on the Port au Port Peninsula from Felix Cove towards Campbells Creek. G. Replace an existing Bridge at Pinsents Brook Cooks Harbour Road with concrete bridge. Bailey on the a new H. Resurfacing 7 Kilometers of a

section of Route 230 between George's Brook and Lethbridge. This is the second phase of resurfacing Route 230, the main highway servicing the Bonavista Peninsula. I. Paving the remaining 2. 2 Kilometers of gravel road between Brittanica and Petley - Random Island. J. Paving 3.4 Kilometers of a

section of Snook Harbour Road - Random Island. L2039 May 20, 1986 Vol XL Mr. Speaker, additional projects will be announced in the days and weeks ahead. However, as members can readily see, these projects a~e spread throughout the Province and will provide benefits to the travelling public, the construction industry and the many residents of the Province who are employed in the industry. SOME HOR. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, we thank the minister for supplying us with a copy of his statement beforehand.

When I look at this statement and the locations of these projects, it does not do anything to assist the minister dispel the taint of patronage which has lain over this minister and his department since he made the statement that he would do more work for the districts of his colleagues, he would have more highway construction, more paving. SOME HOR. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, skimming through this list, out of the ten that are stated, two, I believe, relate to Liberal districts. MR. PATTERSON: Those are two you are going to be allowed to drive over. Ro. 35 R2039

MR. "SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. BARRY: I think it is time that we started to see the allocation of money for transportation in this Province done on the basis of need. The minister should, at some point in time. get up and tell this House and tell the public whether he is going to continue allocation on the basis of partisan politics or at what point in time he is going to do the allocation upon need. If he is prepared to have his priorities scrutinized and verified, that they are right now being done on the basis of need - MR. DAWE: Not verified by you? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.

BARRY: No, by the public of the Province, by the House, and by the taxpayers whose money the minister is spending for his partisan projects. Now, Kr. Speaker, if the minister is prepared to have his projects scrutinized as to whether or not they are done according to need, I would submit the minister should have no reluctance in tabling the full statement of projects for the department instead of dribbling them out in the fashion w~ich he is now doing.

The minister ·should be prepared in his next estimates to come in and to set forth not just a block sum for transportation projects, but he should be prepared to cone in and get approval of a list of projects itemized, Mr. Speaker, in priority according to need, with a specific amount allocated to each project.

Only in that way, only when we see the minister being prepared to L2040 Kay 20, 1986 Vol XL submit his spending estimates to the House on that basis, will the minister be able to avoid that taint of patronage which he has brought to bear on his department and which he is encouraging every time he dribbles out a few more statements such as he has done today. Oral Questions MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Kr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Labour (Mr.

Blanchard) whether the department has reviewed the current legislation relating to the storage of hazardous materials and whether the minister has given any thought to bringing in legislation that would better provide protection for workers in the workplace in being informed with respect to the location of hazardous material? MR. BLANCHARD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Labour. MR. BLANCHARD: Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the hon. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry) for his question, it is a good one.

For a number of years, there has been an ongoing programme, WHKIS for short, Workplace Hazardous Materials Information System. Our department has been part of a committee of deputy ministers No. 35 R2040

which has been looking at this over a number of years under the aegis of the Canadian Association of Administrators of Labour Legislation. I have been to Cabinet, Mr. Speaker, with the report of that committee which has been dealing with it, and I think it is fair to say that we have agreed that whatever legislative change may be necessary will be done in time to implement this report. Meanwhile, through our Occupational Health and Safety Division, Mr.

Speaker, we have just recently gotten a toll free line, we have connection into the Center for Occupational Health and Safety in Hamilton, Ontario, and this whole thing has been under surveillance. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of Opposition. the MR. BARRY: Is the minister aware that certain other jurisdictions have recently implemented legislation? Presumably they have had their deputy minister attending in the same committee.

I am wondering why is it that the Province seems to be slower off the mark in bringing in this more specific legislation than are certain other jurisdictions in Canada? MR. BLANCHARD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Labour. MR. BLANCHARD: Kr. Speaker, that may perception in the mind Leader of the Opposition, are slower off the mark. L2041 Kay 20, 1986 be a of the that we We are Vol XL abreast.

I am not aware of the actual legislation that other jurisdictions have brought in, but it is a concerted effort all across Canada that all of the jurisdictions which require a change in their legislation to acconunodate the reconunendations in the report will be doing so and will be doing it pretty well in unison. Some of us will not need the same extent of alteration to legislation because we have good legislation. We have a good Occupation Health and Safety Act and we may not need as much change. But there is no time lost, Kr.

Speaker, for any legislative action that we have to take because it is all being overseen by a senior committee now and they will be reporting back to various jurisdictions throughout Canada on the real need for change. MR. BARRY: A final supplementary, Kr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): A final supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Kr. Speaker, I would refer the minister to the Liberal Government of Ontario.

I think it was several months ago I saw reported that they had introduced a new Hazardous Materials Act requiring that employers give adequate notice to employees when hazardous material is brought on the workplace. I wonder if the minister is aware of this Ontario initiative, and why is it that we have not seen a similar initiative from the Newfoundland minister? MR. BLANCHARD: Kr. Speaker. KR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Labour. No. 35 R2041

MR. BLANCHARD: Mr. Speaker. I am aware that Ontario took some, perhaps, unusual steps that most of the other provinces would not be required at this particular time to take. Most of the imported · materials would come in through a larger province, like Ontario, and would be disseminated throughout the other provinces. There may be others: As a matter of fact, maybe Quebec may has introduced some special measures, too. But in most of the other jurisdictions, particularly our own, that type of material is very small scale. That is not to say that we are minimizing it at all.

We are not behind the majority of the provinces in what we are doing. I am aware of the initiative taken by Ontario. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker. MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the President of Treasury Board. It concerns the present dispute that is ongoing between the st. John's firemen and the government. I met with a group of firemen at the Central Fire Station this morning and I can tell the hon. gentleman that those people are very concerned about the fact that they are being forced into a situation - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member is making a speech. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that those people are being forced to take extraordinary measures to L2042 May 20, 1986 Vol XL attempt to get meaningful negatiations underway, I want to ask the minister, first of all, why is this' the case, that we are seeing this situation develop, and when can we expect negotiations to resume in this very vital area? MR.. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker. MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of Treasury Board. MR.. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, nobody is being forced to take any action. The St.

John' s fire-fighters, as hon. gentlemen opposite know, have a contract, an agreement and

an act which prohibits them from taking strike action, which is what they are doing today. In any definition of the act, as stated clearly in their act, they are involved in a work slow-down which, as defined by that act, constitutes a strike. The Department of Justice and the Fire Chief are looking at that, are attempting to document and assess exactly what is taking place in the fire department today and will determine in due course what further action, if any, will be necessary.

Their act prohibits them from having the . right to strike and in replacement· of that, of course, they have binding arbitration which they have chosen not to utilize. It is clearly the right of the St. John' s Fire Department to take the two outstanding items to binding arbitration. They have failed to do that and, in failing to do that, they have chosen to become involved in an illegal activity,· and that will be dealt with in due course. No. 35 R2042

In the meantime, Mr. Speaker, we are considering, and will most likely be moving ourselves, as provided under the Act, to ask for binding arbitration which is a right clearly spelled out in the Act, for either party to request binding arbitration. We have made an offer to them which is fair and reasonable, which is consistent with practice right across Canada, which provides them ·with a contract, which does indeed, contrary to many statements made publicly, pay them for the forty-two hours per week that they are working, which is a shift which is favourable to them and is desired by them.

We have offered to them in writing forty hours per week, based on three eight hour shifts per day, which is an option the chief is prepared to live with and work under. That is a ~econd option that they have available to them. They have failed to accept any of the options that have been put forward so we will certainly be considering and will most likely, in due course, be moving ahead to request that binding arbitration be put in place. We are so sure, Mr. Speaker, that our position is fair and reasonable, we have every confidence that an arbitration board will indeed see the reasonableness of our offer. MR.

TULK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: We get the President of Treasury Board coming into this House saying one thing and, on the other hand, we hear on the news media the Chief of Police saying that those people are likely to be L2043 May 20, 1986- Vol XL arrested under the Act. And the President of Treasury Board is saying those people are not professionals. I want to ask the President of Treasury Board, is this another tactic?

Are we seeing another situation develop similar to the NAPE strike, where government is - talking about arbitration, the hon. gentleman knows what happened in the arbitration case that went on last year - acting unreasonable, arrogant and . confrontationlist outside the House, trying to paint the firemen as being totally unreasonable? Are you, indeed, trying to force them on the street in the same way you did the NAPE workers? MR. WINDSOR: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of Treasury Board. · MR. WINDSOR: First of all, Mr.

Speaker, just to the aside, the hon. gentleman made some reference to the fact that I have indicated the fire-fighters of this Province are not professionals . Nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, I have expressed just the opposite, that they are a very professional group of people. Secondly, no, we are not trying to force anybody on the street. We have made a very fair and reasonable offer. Hon. gentlemen can compare that with fire-fighting forces right across Canada.

We have had discussions with the Chief extensively and his advisors as to the operation of the fire department, and that is clearly within their prerogative. I cannot tell them how he can operate his fire department. We simply negotiate on behalf of the fire department to try and find an No. 35 R2043

effective agreement which is sui table to both sides. We have made several offers which we think are very fair and reasonable. We have a wage package, and.we have a package of further benefits which is extremely fair and reasonable. Two options are available, Mr. Speaker: If the fire fighters are not prepared to accept what we have on the table, they can go to arbitration or they can accept the forty hour work week, based on the three· eight ·hour shifts, that we have offered to them in writing. So the choice is very clear. They have options available, and we are not forcing anybody on the street. MR. TULI<: Mr.

Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULI<: Let me ask the bon. the President of Treasury Board another question. We saw an injunction put in place against the NAPE workers. How come they are looking so closely at the act in this particular case to try and determine if indeed this strike is illegal, when we know what happened when an injunction was served on the NAPE people and a few hours afterwards the arrests stopped? MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the President of Treasury Board. MR. WINDSOR: Mr.

Speaker, the dispute with NAPE as it relates to their right to strike was a . question of questioning the legislation which, at that particular time, because L2044 May 20, 1986 Vol XL they failed to fulfill the terms of and objections and· obligations of that legislation, took away from them the right to strike1 NAPE does indeed have the right to strike, in accordance with certain terms and conditions, as any union does.

There are certain things that any union in this Province, be it a general public service bargaining unit or a bargaining unit from outside, in the private sector, certain terms and conditions that they have to fulfill before they can become involved in a legal strike. NAPE, in their case, chose not to fulfill their conditions and therefore were not legally striking. They were questioning that.

In this particular case, we have a group of individuals who, as declared in the act and by their own agreement, do not have the right to strike because they are involved in an essential service, involved in protecting the health and safety of the public. That is why they do not have the right to strike, they are essential employees and they have binding arbitration. So they are clearly outside the sections of the act which prohibit the right to strike, and there is no question at all of the illegality of their action. MR. TULI<: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary. MR.

TULK: I would ask the hon. gentleman how he defines this as a strike. As I understand it, the people who are working with the Fire Department in the city are carrying out essential services in No. 35 R2044

fire-fighting in this city. I would ask him again why it is that he has looked so closely at this legislation when, in fact, we saw what happened -with the injunctions? Let me ask him a couple of other questions he can answer very quickly. Can he tell us what the cost of what those people are asking for would be to the treasury of the Province? Let me also ask him, is not the latest proposal of three - eight hour shifts more expensive than what the firemen themselves are asking for? MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Treasury Board. MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, first of all, the hon. gentleman asked me how I define a strike in this case? Let me read to him the

section of the act. MR. TULK: You have looked very closely at it, have you not? MR. WINDSOR: Yes, I am looking very closely. I have it in front of me. This is a direct quote from the act. PREMIER PECKFORD: Close enough to read. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. WINDSOR: It deals with the definition of the term 'strike', and it says and I quote, 'A strike includes a cessation of work or a refusal to work by members in combination or L2045 Kay 20, 1986 Vol XL in concert or in accordance with a common understanding or a slow-down or other concerted activity on the part of members designed to restrict or limit output'.

Now that, Mr . Speaker, is a direct quote from the act and our advice is that the activity that they are involved in is clearly a violation of that act. I will deal with the second part of the hon. gentleman's question. MR. BARRY: You asked for an opinion on this one, did you? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! KR. WINDSOR: I will deal with the second part of the question, Kr. Speaker. _ If the bon. the Leader of the Opposition wants to ask a question, I think somebody will write it down for him and he can try it. The second half of the question was dealing with the forty hours of work based on three eight hours shifts.

It is a matter of the Chief being able to

schedule his employees, his men, to provide what he considers adequate fire-fighting protection throughout the terms of the workday or the workweek, as the case may be. With forty hour shifts, he feels that he can

schedule it so that, without requiring extra personnel, he can provide the kind of service required. and there are other benefits, other costs, that will not be incurred when people are involved in eight hour shifts rather than on twenty-four hour shifts. At the moment, they work No. 35 R2045

twenty-four hours and they are off for seventy-two hours. So it is one day on and three days off which makes it very difficult for scheduling, particularly as it relates to on-the-job training and so forth. So the Chief has made · it clear that he is able to work within that type of

schedule and is prepared to do that. MR. TULIC: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: This is a final supplementary. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, in view of what we saw happening with the injunctions with the NAPE workers, let me ask the bon. gentleman if he would indeed table the opinion that he got and where he got it from. I would also like to point out to him that I am told by the people at the Central Fire Station that this will cost more and that they have made a proposal that would allow the Chief to carry out his training and still get the 104 hours that are required in the year. Let me ask him a very simple question.

Where did he get his opinion and will he table it? Furthermore, in view of what happened with the injunction against the NAPE workers, when can we expect the arrests to start and when can we expect them to stop? MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the President of Treasury Board. KR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, no, I will not table L2046 May 20, 1986 Vol XL the opinion. I have just read the

section of the act that applies. I suggest that the bon. gentleman ask the gentleman to his right, his leader, who is a great legal authority, whether or not he considers this a definition of a strike in accordance with this particular act, and I am sure he will get the same answer as I have, Mr. Speaker. MR. GILBERT: Mr. Speaker. KR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Burg eo - Bay d'Espoir. MR. GILBERT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Transportation.

Will the minister clarify for this House his statement of Monday, April 23, in which he said that the Burgeo highway had a very high priority in any secondary roads agreement? Would he also clarify the statement in a letter from the Parliamentary Secretary to the federal Minister of Transportation, Mike Forrestall, in which he says, Mr. Forrestall, 'Project selection had to be based on a priority system and it is unfortunate that the Burgeo road could not be considered in any eligible project.

In view of the present requirement for severe fiscal restraint, I cannot be optimistic about finding any additional federal funds for the highway construction in Newfoundland at this time.' MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. GILBERT: It. is part of the question, Kr. Speaker. No. 35 R2046

MR. SPEAKER: The han. member is not asking a question, he is reading. MR. GILBERT: I am asking for clarification of a statement. Anyway, what I want him to do is clarify this statement. He says the only possible way to make funding available for upgrading of the Burgeo road would appear to be for the Province to reassess its situation. MR . MARSHALL: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! A point of order, the bon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, that is not a question. He can ask the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) what his priorities are.

I do not think the Minister of Transportation has to respond to what Mr. Forrestall's priorities are, or what Mr. Lalonde's priorities were, or Mackenzie King's or anybody. The fact of the matter is, he has to ask questions of the minister of where he is responsible. PREMIER PECKFORD: If it takes that long for him to lmow how to ask a question to get the Burg eo road done, the Burgeo road will never be done. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the han. member was reading fairly extensively instead of asking a question, so I would ask the han. member to pose his question now, please. L2047 May 20, 1986 Vol XL MR.

GILBERT: Mr . Speaker, what I want to ask the Minister of Transportation is, could he explain the difference in the statement that he gave regarding a priority list which he has for a secondary roads agreement and the one that Mr. Forrestall ·has in the letter that he wrote to the President of the Development Association? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear ·, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. Transportation. MR. DAWE: the Minister of Mr. Speaker, the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) clarified very well that I really cannot comment on what Mr. Forrestal~ thinks or does not think.

As it relates to the statement that I made with regard to the Burgeo road having a high priority for completion, that is very true. Mr. Speaker, in the last roads agreement, under SRCPP, that we signed with the federal Liberal government, if the Premier had not been as forceful as he was in identifying the Burgeo road as a priority of the Province, it never would have been done. So I think, Mr. Speaker, that is a clear indication of where I stand and where the administration stands with regard to a priol"i ty for the Burgeo road completion. MR. GILBERT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: A supplementary, the han. the member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir. MR. GILBERT: The minister maintains that the Burgeo highway has a high priority No. 35 R2047

as do all secondary roads. What does he mean by this? Will the minister make an explicit comment as to the having the upgrading and paving of the Burgeo road on the top of his list? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Transportation. the Minister of MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker, there must have been something that I missed in that verbiage that the hon. gentleman just put forward because I had difficulty finding a question in it. If the member would try to ask it again, then, perhaps, I could come up with an answer. MR. GILBERT: All right. MR. SPEAI<ER: A supplementary, the hon. the member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir. MR.

GILBERT: To put it in simple language, the minister said that the Burgeo highway has a high priority in the secondary roads agreement. What does the minister mean by this and will he make an . explicit comment as to the upgrading and paving of the road being on the top of this list? Does he still make that statement, that it is at the top of his list in the secondary roads agreement? MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The bon. the Minister of Transportation. MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker, there priorities and medium and high priorities.

L2048 Kay 20, 1986 are low priorities That would Vol XL mean that the high priorities have a higher priority than either the medium priorities or the lower priorities. Therefore, I stand by the statement, Mr. Speaker, that the Burgeo Road is in the higher priority category. MR. GILBERT: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. the member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir. MR. GILBERT: Mr. Speaker, this final supplementary, very slowly for the minister. The minister maintains that he is negotiating on behalf of this road. If the comment in the letter from Mr.

Forrestall means anything, his negotiating influence is nil. Is his federal colleague in this era of co-operation and consultation ignoring him? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Transportation. MR. DAWE: the Minister of Mr. Speaker, you would have to ask Mr. Forrestall. Again, it is not appropriate to direct that particular question here. My dialogue and co-operation with the Minister of Transport, Mr. Mazankowski. is very good. I have never been involved in negotiations with Mr. Forrestall. He serves in a capacity junior to Mr.

Mazankowski and, I suppose, it is in that junior capacity that he wrote a letter that I have not seen. But, certainly, the question relative to what he is thinking with regard to what he wrote in the letter is certainly better directed toward him. MR. K. AYLWARD: Mo. 35 R2048

Kr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Stephenville. MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to direct a. question to the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. I would like to know if he can give us an update on the forest fire situation on the Island right now? MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for the question.

I can advise the hon. member and the House that the situation is that the fire situation in Eastern, Western and Northern Newfoundland is quite stable and under control, the few fires that are in those areas. In the Central Newfoundland area, all seven fires are still officially listed as out of control but, of course, with the damp weather and the rain over the last twenty-four hours things have improved considerably in terms of fire-fighting efforts.

In addition to that, I can inform the House that we requested an additional two water bombers from the Province of Quebec, which should have been here around three o'clock today. These are CL-215 water bombers, by the way, which have greater capacity than the ordinary Cansos, by carrying 1,200 gallon tanks as opposed to 800 gallon tanks.

So two of those increase the capacity threefold, I L2049 May 20, 1986 Vol XL guess is the easiest way to put it, and they will be directing most of their efforts today in the Bay d • Espoir area, where the two fires -in Bay d' Espoir are easily the ones that are now burning more than any others. The boundaries have been contained in all of the other fires. MR. K. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): A supplementary, the hon. member for Stephenville. MR. K. AYLWARD: the Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Just a short supplementary.

Could the minister tell us if there is a plan of action being put in place for the Summer - because it look like it is going to be a hard one - for the forest fire situation, which is very bad? It looks as if it is going to be a very tough Summer and it has started very early. Could he tell us of any extra plans that they may have to tackle the situation should it come about again? MR. SIMMS: Kr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR. SIMMS: Kr.

Speaker, we intend to carry out the plan that we have had in place for this particular situation, a plan that has been put in place over the years. It is a very well-organized, well-detailed plan. I would not have time to go into it now for the hon. member. I would be happy after the House, if he would like, to sit down with him and show him the organizational charts. We No. 35 R2049

will be employing and using the six Canso bombers that we have in our own provincial fleet. -We will access the use of 20-odd helicopters that are around the Province, as we have already done. We will employ as many ground crew personnel as we need to employ to fight any forest fire. Those capabilities that we have presently are quite adequate if the situation were normal.

This is not a normal situation and it is for that precise reason that the provinces and the federal government have put together, through the centre in Winnipeg, a bank of equipment which any province can access and which other provinces have done up to now, as well as ourselves. That is precisely the reason why that is in place. I might add, for his information, having heard him on the radio a day or so ago mentioning that maybe it is time to invest in some new water bombing equipment - the hon. member, I know, is new to the House, having only been here a year or so, so he may not have known.

I appreciate his support, but it is about two years late -­ we did, in fact, a couple of years ago, make a decision to purchase four new CL-215 water bombers; two will be delivered next year in time for the fire season and two the following year. MR. K. AYLWARD: How much were they? KR. SIMMS: Fourteen million dollars, I think, Mr. Speaker. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for L2050 May 20, 1986 Vol XL Twillingate. MR. W. CARTER: My question is to the Minister of Fisheries.

Can· the minister tell the House if he was consul ted by his federal counterpart before chang·es were made in the salmon fishing regulations this year? MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, I would assume the hon. gentleman means the Atlantic Salmon Management plan for 1986, not particular regulations. If he is talking about opening and closing dates and things of that nature, I can say to him that there was a full-scale meeting between the federal minister and all the Atlantic ministers some there of four weeks ago, of which that was an agenda item.

MR. W. CARTER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): A supplementary, the hon. the member for Twillingate. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that the closing date, which has been changed from December 31 to October 15, which will effectively destroy the Fall salmon fishery certainly in my district, would the minister make representation to his federal counterpart and ask him to reconsider and to at least allow the season to remain open, as it was before in that area, until December 31? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. No. 35 R2050

MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, no doubt the hon. gentleman will realize that what we commonly refer to as the Fall salmon fishery along the East and Northeast Coast of Newfoundland has been particularly beneficial to people in his constituency, and my own and a number of others along that part of our coast. He will also, no doubt, be aware, as well, that the total amount of salmon caught in that Fall fishery ranges from anywhere between two and five tons a year. So , while it is not a lot of salmon, in essence it has a great impact on fishermen along that part of the coast. Kr.

Speaker, I can tell him that we adamantly, as a Province, took a position diametrically opposed to bringing the closing date down to the middle of October for the very reasons that I enunciated to him in Committee only two or three weeks ago, when he raised the question. I can tell him that last year was the first year that it was possible to get Greenland to agree, on paper, to reduce their salmon effort from 1,100 tons down to, I believe, 850 tons. The U.S. this year, as a major player in the North Atlantic Salmon Association, wants them to go even further.

Because one of the things that happens to our Atlantic salmon, despite the enhancement programmes and all the things that we do here in Newfoundland and Atlantic Canada, is they get raped off when they arrive up in the Greenland waters later in the year. So the U.S. is committed this year to putting whatever pressure is required on Greenlanders to reduce their effort even further than last year, and in return for that they have requested Canada to cut back on the Fall dates.

L2051 Kay 20, 1986 Vol XL Now, that is not a position that we supported, it is not a position that we agreed to, but it is a position - that the federal government have adopted. MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Port de Grave. MR. EFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Kr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Consumer Affairs. The Taximens • Association and all taxi drivers have a very serious problem with the cost of insurance.

They have made representation to the minister's department and I would like to ask the Minister of Consumer Affairs if he is aware of this and what effect it will have on taximen obtaining insurance and the cost of insurance for their different cars? MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Consumer Affairs. MR. RUSSELL: Mr.

Speaker, I received a call about three weeks ago, I guess, from the President of the Independent Taximens' Association expressing to me their concern about the tremendous increase in rates for the Taximen and wondering if they could have a meeting with officials in my department. I am glad to inform the bon. member that there have been two meetings held so far. There is excellent co-operation between the Taximens • Association and my department. They do have a No. 35 R2051

serious problem and we are doing everything we can in consultation with them and with the insurance industry to try to assist them in every way possible. MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the bon. the member for Port de Grave. MR. EFFORD: As of this morning, Mr. Speaker, in talking with the President of Taximen's Association, they were not getting very much co-operation at all. In fact, I would like to ask the minister if he is aware that over the past number of months a number of taxi-drivers have had to give up their business because of the high cost of insurance?

I would also ask the minister if anything is going to be done to alleviate this problem. KR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker. KR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Consumer Affairs. MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, if the President of the Taximen's Association has indicated that they are not getting anywhere with my department in terms of co-operation, in trying to assist them, that is absolutely untrue. We have had two meetings with them. No later than last Thursday morning or Friday morning there was a meeting with them. They do, as individual taximen. have some problems. We are co-operating with them 100 per cent.

They do, as I said, and I know I am repeating myself, as individual taximen have some problems. Their L2052 May 20, 1986 Vol XL insurance rates have gone up tremendously. The Vice-President of the Insurance Corporation of Canada was in town, I do not know if it was Wednesday or Thursday of last week, and officials of my department sat down with him and his people and discussed the matter with them. We do have the matter well in hand. There is not an easy solution to it.

Some of these people, and I stress, some of the taxi people are high risks in the sense that they have had some accidents over the past few years. Some of them have not had an accident in a while yet they are sort of lumped in now by the insurance people as if they did have some problems and were high risk when they are not. We are trying to get it all sorted out, and it is completely untrue that we are not co-operating with the Taximen's Association. KR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker. KR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the bon. the member for Port de Grave. MR.

EFFORD: If the Minister of Consumer Affairs has been talking to the insurance companies and has had meetings with the taxi-drivers, would he be able to explain to this House and to the taxi-drivers of this Province why, when 60 per cent or 70 per cent of the taxi-drivers have had no problems at all, no accidents and no fines or whatever, their insurance is continually going up - not going down - the same as the taxi-drivers who have had problems? KR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: No. 35 R2052

The bon. the Minister of Consumer Affairs. MR. RUSSELL: I do not know if the bon. member is listening to what I have indicated to him. I. already said there are serious problems. MR. EFFORD: But why? KR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, that is one of the problems we are having. We do not agree with the insurance companies hiking the insurance rates for taximen, or anybody, if there is not just cause for doing so.

We laid that out on the table to the insurance people on Wednesday or Thursday of last week and said to them exactly what the bon. member is saying - 'Why is it that people who apparently have a very, very good driving record are being lumped in with others who do not have a good driving record? We do not think that is fair and you had better get it sorted out.' MR. EFFORD: Why are they doing it? MR. RUSSELL: Why are they doing it? MR. EFFORD: Yes. MR. RUSSELL: Because they are lumping them altogether, which is not correct, and they have given them their preminums and their rates have gone up tremendously.

I do not agree with what they are doing, we do not agree with what they are doing and we are trying to get it sorted out. L2053 Kay 20, 1986 Vol XL MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The time for Oral Questions bas elapsed. Notices of Motion MR. YOUNG: Kr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Public Works. MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Pippy Park Conunission Act. •• MR. DOYLE: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of K~nicipal Affairs. MR. DOYLE: Mr.

Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act Respecting The Assessment Of Property For the Purpose Of The Imposition Of Real Property Taxes By Councils Of The Municipalities And School Taxes By School Tax Authorities." Petitions MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for Mehihek. MR. FENWICK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. No. 35 R2053

Mr. Speaker, · I rise to present petitions from four more schools. One is from Smallwood Academy in Gambo. I think that is an appropriate one. MR. J. CARTER: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! A point of . order, the bon. the member for st. John's North. MR. J. CARTER: Without any reference to the content of these petitions, which can be judged on their own merit, it is tity understanding, and I think the member for Kenihek will confirm this, that these are not really an ordinary type of petition· in that they were sought by the member.

That is to say, he sent out blanks, if you like, or sent our requests or in vi tat ions for a quasi petition-like document to come to him. I realize that this is a very tricky matter because this House has always regarded the presentation of petitions as being the right of any petitioner. We have been very open and easy-going . in our acceptance of petitions. Anything that even looked like a petition and anything that might even be . questionable. that is to say, outside of our jurisdiction, has usually been allowed. This has been my experience.

I would not request that any decision be made immediately or abruptly but it does seem to me that if anything at all will pass as a petition and it can be solicited rather than proffered, then I think that valuable time in this House can be wasted. What alarms me most of all is that a L2054 Kay 20, 1986 Vol XL very serious precedent could be established. MR. FENWICK: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the bon. the member for Kenihek. MR. FENWICK: I do not think the point of order is very well taken.

I am sure that all the members here have had people come to them and indicate a concern that they have had and have helped their constituents draft petitions or helped other people draft petitions in order to make sure that they have met with our standards to be introduced into the House. We have already rejected a number of petitions in the past because they were improperly worded and I think it is only appropriate that we have a role there. If you do that and you say you cannot allow these in, then you will have to reject any petitions that any member had any role in helping individuals draft.

I think it would be a very bad precedent to set. I have, at this point, not tried to abuse the rules of the House. I am presenting the petitions, not one at a time but in bunches so that we would reduce the amount of time spent on it. but also to indicate that these schools are very much concerned with this particular issue and would like to have their voices heard. MR. TULIC: To · that point of order, Kr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: No. 35 R2054

To that point of order, the bon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULI<: Mr. Speaker, we on this side, of course, have no wish to stop anybody from presenting petitions in this House. But there is a question that arises here that perhaps should be addressed and should be, perhaps. thought about by the Speaker.

That is the whole question of whether indeed the petitions are really coming from people as they want to present them or whether the whole issue is being forced by a member of this House and being clouded somewhat as to whether this is the real intent of the people out there in this Province. as to whether they do wish to petition the House on a particular issue. For example. I can tell Your Honour that I lmow of a petition now that was being circulated to petition the government in regards to the sales tax on cable companies in the Province.

I am just wondering if Your Honour would take a look at this whole process to indeed see if what we are really presenting in this House are the wishes of the people who have their names signed to that petition or whether the issue is being clouded by a member sending out and soliciting opinions from people, rather than getting the true opinions of people, as I said, that have their names on the petition. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): To that point of order, I do not think there is a point of order.

To the comments about petitions. it is difficult for the Chair to decide on any petition because it has not seen the petition until it is presented. In this particular case, I am assuming that the L2055 May 20. 1986 Vol XL petition is in order. I call on the bon. the member for Menihek. MR. FENWICK: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Again, I will not abuse the rules of the House by taking too much time. I just want to indicate where they came from and that the signatures are 100 per cent real. These individuals have looked at the petition. They have decided that this is a cause they wish to support.

I think that they should be heard. I think it is a legitimate petition. One was from the Integrated All-Grade School in Swift Current, Newfoundland. By the way. this petition I have here, Mr. Speaker, is a very interesting one. This has thirty-five teachers from Holy Heart of Mary Regional High School. I invite members who represent the St. John • s constituencies to have a look at the petition. You may recognize the names of some of the teachers who have signed it. I would very much like them to stand in their places and make some comment on the particular issue itself. This petition is from Holy Heart of Mary.

There is another one from Ascension Collegiate in Bay Roberts. Unfortunately, I did not get a chance to present it while there were some students from Ascension Collegiate here last week but I would have very much liked to. There is another number of them here, all of whom are endorsing it as well. Mr. Speaker, there is another one from Smallwood Academy, which I believe I started with. No. 35 R2055

MR. BUTT: What happened in Conception Bay South 'Peter'? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. FENWICK: What I would also like to indicate, not to take too much time on it, but if there are any additional petitions, and I assume there may be more coming in, but this is all I have at this time. I am not holding them and delaying putting them in. There also are a number of letters being sent to the Minister of CUlture, Recreation and Youth (Mr. Matthews). I am receiving cop.ies of these letters which are endorsing the concept of finishing the encyclopedia.

So I think, since these school boards and regional libraries and so on, are sending letters to the minister, I would very much like the, minister, himself, to stand in his place and, if he does not endorse the encyclopedia, tell us why and tell us what the problems are in getting it completed. I believe there has been some representation made to the bon. minister. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Twillingate. MR. W. CARTER: Kr.

Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition signed by 492 residents of Twillingate District in the conununities of Virgin Arm, Tizzard's Harbour, Whales Gulch and Bridgeport. L2056 May 20, 1986 Vol XL Mr. Speaker, the prayer of the petition is as follows: ••we, the people whose signatures are signed to this document, pray to the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador that you hear our concerns. We want you to provide us with an upgraded and paved road between Virgin Arm and Tizzard's Harbour and the branches to Whales Gulch and Bridgeport. ..

We request that these improvements be undertaken within the fiscal budget for 1986. We humbly beseech that our request be satisfied ... Mr. Speaker, this, as I said a moment ago, is a petition signed by some 492 residents of the areas mentioned. Mr. Speaker, the roads in question are probably the most deplorable roads in this Province. I have had occasion to drive over them on several occasions recently and I am not at all surprised that the residents of the areas concerned have seen fit to circulate this petition, like I said a moment ago, which contains 492 names. The Twillingate district, Mr.

Speaker, and the communities named in the petition are probably among some of the oldest settled areas in the Province. It is probably the wealthiest in terms of natural resources and in terms of their actual production of new dollars, especially from the fishery. That is all the more reason, Mr. Speaker, why consideration should be given to the paving of the roads in question because these roads are being used from this time of the year until the fishing season closes in the Fall.

Over these roads fish is being transported in trucks, in pick-ups and in transports on its way to the processing plants in Whales No. 35 R2056

Gulch, Bridgeport and, of course, in some cases, to Herring Neck and to Twillingate. Mr. Speaker, it must be considered by the government opposite that these people are taxpayers too. When you read the minister's statement that he presented in the House today in which he announced tender calls for ten different roads and bridges in the Province, when you realize that of the ten projects announced, eight of these are represented by members of the government side, well then, Mr. Speaker, that puts into question the whole area of the tender calls and the so called impartiality of the Minister of Transportation (Mr.

Dawe). There is a widely accepted belief, Mr. Speaker, that progress in a country or in a cormnunity is based, to some extent, on the way in which they are able to develop a proper transportation system. We have heard stories about the highly industrialized countries in the world, Japan, Germany, the European countries and others, whose economies have flourished in recent years. There is a widely held view that the extent to which they have been able to develop a good mode of transportation does determine their ability to progress and to develop good economies . I think, Mr.

Speaker, it may be only on a very smaller scale, but the same thing can be said for Newfoundland outports. In places like those mentioned in the petition, Tizzard's Harbour and Whales Gulch and Bridgeport and Morton' s Harbour, these roads are in a deplorable state. They are not fit to drive a car over. They have never been paved. Mr.

Speaker, this maybe points out the importance of there being very L2057 May 20, 1986 Vol XL well thought out policy decisions made before there is any decision made to allow Canadian National to abandon its train service in this Province because places in my district, Tizzard's Harbour, Morton • s Harbour, Bridgeport,. and Whales Gulch, for example, at one point in time in our history were serviced by the Canadian National coastal fleet.

Now, some years back the coastal fleet was allowed to be taken out of service without there being adequate provision made for decent roads to the cormnunities that were previously serviced by the coastal boats. So I think if ever we want an example of how important it is that there be proper negotiations carried out, this is it. Certainly, a firm stand taken by this government before there is any ~ttempt made to allow the Government of Canada and its Crown agency, Canadian National, to remove the tracks across Newfoundland. We should bear this in mind, Mr. Speaker, it has happened before.

When coastal boats were removed, there was no adequate provision made for their ·replacement in terms of providing a means of transportation to these respective communities. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I petition, Sir, and support the respectfully tabled and request that it be referred to the Department which it relates. to MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The bon. the Leader of the Opposition. No. 35 R2057

MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, it is a great pleasure for me to rise and support the petition so ably presented by the member for Twillingate (Mr. W. Carter). What is being requested here is not unreasonable in this day and age in our Province . I think Twillingate is one of the most neglected districts in the Province, it is fair to say. It is · an historic district with independent hard-working people. They produce new dollars, particularly with their hard work in the fishing industry.

It is such an important fishing district, with its plants in the Bridgeport, Whales Gulch, Herring Heck, and the Twillingate parts of the district, that we have to keep in mind that hauling fish over the bad roads that are now there does very little to improve the quality of this fish. I have to say, Mr. Speaker, that the member for Twillingate has asked me to give a co11111itment to the people of his district, and I am very happy to give it. When we form the government next time, if this work is- not done by then, it will be done when we form the government. SOME HOM. MEMBERS: Hear. hear! MR.

BARRY: We will give priority to Virgin Arm. Whales Gulch, Tizzard's Harbour, Moreton's Harbour and the other neglected parts of Twillingate district which have been neglected for far too long by the present administration. Now we have to ask members opposite to stand and show their true colours. show whether or not L2058 Kay 20, 1986 Vol XL th~y are interested in the concerns and the needs of the people of Twillingate . DR. COLLINS: (Inaudible). MR. BARRY: I ask the Minister of Finance (Dr .

Collins) , who is making a remark sitting in his chair, I would ask him or any other of his colleagues in the Cabinet to rise and commit themselves to seeing work carried out now, this year, not sometime in the distant future. Let us have a commitment right now, today, to have this work completed in Twillingate. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker I would like to rise and support this petition as well. MR. MARSHALL: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. the President of the Council. KR. MARSHALL: There are only two members from each side to a petition.

SOME ROll. MEMBERS: By leave. By leave. MR. CALLAN: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. KR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the hon. the member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: I know these communities quite well. I taught school out there many years ago. I thought perhaps No. 35 R2058

leave would be granted so as I could stand and support the prayer of the petition, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave. KR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. KR. SPEAKER: The bon. the President of the Council. KR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, since the bon. gentleman is measured in his tones, he can get up. He usually speaks in measured tones. MR. SPEAKER: Does the .hon. member have leave? SOME HON. MEMBERS ·: Yes. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Thank you. Mr. Speaker. Yes, it is a privilege for me, Mr. Speaker, to stand and support the prayer of the petition asking that these roads be paved.

I am quite familiar with the conununities out there, Mr. Speaker. Virgin Arm is the first high school that I ever taught in. I am going back twenty-five years, I would say. and perhaps thirty years ago. It is about thirty years ago that I taught school on New World Island, which is in the historic district of Twillingate, and I remember these communities. Tizzard's Harbour, Morton's Harbour and Virgin Arm. I was surprised, Mr. Speaker, to learn today that these conununities still do not have, not the luxury, L2059 May 20, 1986 Vol XL but the necessity of a paved road.

The last time I was back to New World Island and Twillingate Island was in the by-election of 1977, I think it was. It was when the former Premier J. R. Smallwood resigned from the Legislature and a by-election was called. The gentleman who is now the Open Line host on VOCM, who was then the Leader of the Liberal Party, Bill Rowe, was the Liberal candidate in that by-election. I remember travelling these same roads, as I said, and that is nearly ten years ago.

I was shocked and surprised to learn today when the hon. member stood to present the petition that these good people out in the district of Twillingate still do not have paved roads, particularly in Morton's Harbour, . Tizzard 1 s Harbour and Virgin Arm. Mr. Speaker, when I was there thirty years ago there was no link with New World Island. When I went to teach school that Fall I had to put my car on a ferry boat in Lewisporte and have it transported by ·ferry to Sununerford. I brought it back in the Spring over the frozen ice to Boyd 1 s Cove. I drove my car across the ice and left it there for Easter week.

That is how I managed to get home that particular year. But since then, Mr. Speaker, a link has been built with New World Island. Mr. Speaker, you have to remember that in this Legislature for over three years, from 1982 to 1985, the district of Twillingate was represented by a lady, Mrs. Ida Reid, who was a government member . I do not know what work she did. She took a lot of credit for a lot of work that was done by George Baker in Ottawa on these No. 35 R2059

make work programmes and so on. But anyway, Mr. Speaker, I do not want to get off on that at the 'risk of having leave withdrawn. What I want to do, Mr. Speaker, is to say that I am surprised. The Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) is back here now, Kr. Speaker. I am sure he will probably want to speak in support of this petition as well. I am surprised that the district of Twillingate needs pavement, being represented by a government member.

However, we have heard the old cliche, and we have heard the Minister of Transportation say it boldly and openly on television that 'we do not pave roads in Liberal districts. ' But here we had a government member, who I am sure fought hard to try and get these roads done and still the road from Virgin Arm to Tizzard' s Harbour and Morton's Harbour, Whales Gulch and Bridgeport, which are very close together there, are not paved. I have driven there many times. As I said, this goes back thirty years almost, to when I was a school teacher down there. The Principal of the school, by the way, Mr.

Speaker, is a good Tory himself , Rupert Short, a good friend of mine. He still is. He is in Lewisporte now, but a good man and I am sure that here is . another reason why the people out · there should have had paved roads long ago, when a gentleman, a good Tory who tried to be the federal member, but failed in that pursuit MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The bon. member has spoken for five minutes. L2060 Kay 20, 1986 Vol XL MR. CALLAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Orders of the Day Motion, the bon. the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Memorial University Act," carried. (Bill No. 37) On motion, Bill No. 37 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. Motion, the bon. the Minister of Justice to introduce a bill, "An Act To Revise The Judicature Act Respecting The Supreme Court And Procedure Therein," carried. (Bil.l No. 38) On motion, Bill No. 38 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow.

Motion, the bon. the Minister of Labour to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Workers' Compensation Act, 1983, •• carried. (Bill No. 39) On motion, Bill No. 39 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow . MR. MARSHALL: Order 3, Concurrence Motion (Social Services Committee). MR. SPRAKER: The debate on the Concurrence Motion was adjourned by the bon. the member for Torngat Mountains. The bon. the member for Torngat Mountains. No. 35 R2060

MR. WARREN: Kr. Speaker, I rise to say a few words concerning the estimates of Social Services. I had the opportunity to attend one of the meetings. Several departments there are of great concern to me. I would like to begin in particular, Kr. Speaker, with department of Social Services itself. One particular division of the Department of Social Services, Kr. Speaker, in recent months has been talked about. That division is involved with special care. I am referring to Exon House. I must say, Kr.

Speaker. on several occasions during the past month and a half I was tempted to get up on a point of order or a point of privilege when the bon. member .for Port de Grave (Kr. Efford) was attempting to ask some questions of the hon. the Minister of Social Services (Kr. Brett) concerning Exon House. I think, Kr. Speaker. we have seen in this House an attempt - I do not know if it was a deliberate attempt or not, I will not say. Kr.

Speaker - by the hon. the member for Port de Grave to ask questions of the administration concerning individuals who could not care for themselves and who need all the support, not only from members of this House but from the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador as a whole. The scare tactics that the bon. member used. the attitude of the bon. member towards the staff and the patients of Exon House leaves much to be des ired . I believe it shows. Mr. Speaker, a lack of understanding by the bon. member. MR. EFFORD: On a point of order, Kr. Speaker. L2061 Kay 20. 1986 Vol XL MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order. please!

On a point of order, the bon. the member for Port de Grave. MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker. the member for Torngat Mountains just made a clear statement that I, in some way. have made it very difficult for the staff at Exon House. I would like to ask the member would he clarify exactly what he means and say what I have done to hurt or put a strain upon the staff of Exon House by asking questions of the Minister of Social Services. MR. MARSHALL: To that point of ·order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the bon. the President of the Council. MR.

MARSHALL: That is not a point of order, it is a difference of opinion between two bon. gentlemen. I understand what the bon. gentleman is referring to. It is what the bon. gentleman in Committee did which caused a great deal of concern, I believe. to people who were connected with that particular service that has been rendered from time to time. At best. what the bon. gentleman is doing is just indicating a difference of opinion. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): To that point of order. there is no point of order. It is a difference of opinion between two bon. gentlemen. MR. WARREN: Thank you, Kr. Speaker. Kr. Speaker.

I have received a No. 35 R2061

number of telephone calls from my own district .expressing concern. Some time ago, .I took a constituent of mine, down to Exon House to visit his son. Having seen the special care and admiration given this young fellow by the staff and knowing that the patients there are unable to take care of themselves, I think the bon. member should be asllamed of himself for condemning what has been done for the mentally and physically handicapped people of this Province. Mr.

Speaker, the bon. the member for Port de Grave is new in this House but I am sure that after one year he should know enough not to make ambarrassing comments about those people who are being entrusted to look after the unfortunate ones. I think the bon. member should realize that he is not attacking the Minister of Social Services. What he has done is he has been attacking the residents of Exon House who cannot take care of themselves. So I hope the bon. member can realize the grave injustice that he has done to the morale of those at Exon House, and, Mr.

Speaker, I would also say, the grave injustice he has done to his own party. Now, Mr. Speaker, let me go to Culture, Recreation and Youth. I remember, Mr. Speake .r, when the hon. the member for Naskaupi (Mr. Kelland) got up in this House and put a question to either the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth or to the Premier, asking about a grant for Them Days magazine. I remember I told him at that time not to worry about it. Subsequently, he took a copy of Hansard and made a press release about the bon. the member for Torngat Mountains telling the L2062 May 20, 1986 Vol XL member for Naskaupi not to worry.

Now, Mr. Speaker, action will show that the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth (Mr. Matthews) and the Premier have shown their concern about the continuation of Them Days magazine. Subsequently, a sustaining grant has been approved in the amount of $20,000 for Them Days magazine. Mr. Speaker, I would venture to say the bon. members opposite got a copy of a letter that was written by Doris Saunders of Them Days magazine and I believe, Mr.

Speaker, without reading any paragraph in that letter the bon. gentlemen opposite could understand how appreciative Doris Saunders and Them Days magazine were with the work of this government towards preserving Them Days magazine. MR. TULK: On that Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, concerning the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation, I am sure if the bon. member wanted to ask me any questions I would be only to glad. In fact, I would venture to say, Mr.

Speaker, that the bon. member could get all the answers he wanted from his bon. colleague the member for Twillingate (Mr. W. Carter). The member for Twillingate can supply him with all the answers that he requires. Mr. Speaker, Newfoundland and Labrador Housing is not under the Social Services Committee, however, I will deal with that in due course. Furthermore, on Culture, Recreation and Youth, some time ago I said to the minister and the No. 35 R2062

Premier that I want to see some kind of a recreational facility started up in the town of Nain. I said that sometime ago to the people of Nain and I am very confident with the Minister of CUlture, Recreation and Youth (Mr . Matthews) that we will see some action in the town of Nain this year towards my goal and my ambition of having a recreation center started in that town.

I have that much confidence in the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. · The hon. member just now asked me a question about the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing and I suggested to the hon. member that he should contact his member for Twillingate. I believe any question the hon. member has regarding Newfoundland and Labrador Housing can be answer.ed by the member for Twillingate. I am sure he has all the information that is required and I am sure the hon. member for Twillingate must be quite satisfied with the information. KR. W. CARTER: I have explained it to them. KR.

WARREN: I am sure the minister is quite satisfied with the information he received. KR. SPEAKER: The hon. has about one minutes left. KR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I am sure the hon. members opposite will give me leave. Concerning Consumer Affairs, Mr. Speaker, the minister said some time ago, about five or six months ago, that one of his aims was to L2063 May 20, 1986 Vol XL make sure that Labrador would have a consumer rep. I am quite pleased, Mr.

Speaker, to say to all membes opposite that last Wednesday I had tbe opportunity of going into the consumer office in Happy Valley-Goose Bay and meeting with the individual that is working there as the consumers representative for Labrador. I might say to members opposite that you are going to see great things from this individual. This individual is going to travel the coast of Labrador and is going to meet with the concerns of the consumers up in that neck of woods. The hon. member for Gander (Mr.

Baker) should be quite proud that we have snatched one of the very ambitious people from Gander and put him in Labrador. I am sure when the · member for Gander gets up, he is going· to praise this government for taking a positive initiative step to have a consumer rep for Labrador. MR. SPEAXER: Order, please, the hon. member's time has expired. MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAXER: Order, please! The hon. the member for Port de Grave. MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, the hardest part of this is to get up after the member for Torngat (Mr.

Warren) spoke because I do not think he said one thing you could put together with any common sense in all of his ten minutes. I find it very cold and I think it goes to show exactly how the members of the government are acting today towards the people of Newfoundland when they No. 35 R2063

can stand on their · feet for ten minutes and instead of relating to the problems that are at hand try, to condemn or degrade a member of the opposition, completely ignoring the problems at hand. I took part, Mr. Speaker, in the Estimates Committee and I have some questions for the Minister of Social Services (Mr.

Brett), some very important questions to the facts that are outstanding at Exon House, not to attack the residents, not to attack the staff, but to attack the way in which the administration was working at Exon House and the way the Department of Social Services was continuing to ignore the problems that were there, which put excessive strain on the staff of Exon House. I asked those type of questions and the only answers we get back from him in the Estimates Committee and every time somebody stands on their feet today in the House of Assembly is an attack on the person who asked the questions. Mr.

Speaker, if that is the way in which the government of the day is going to continue solving the problems, if that is the way they are going to try to make things better for the people of this Province, well I say it is time not only for the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Brett) and the Minister of Consumer Affairs and Conuuunications (Mr. Russell) , who are bungling their jobs, it is time for every member of the government to resign and to get out and to let some competent people get in there and do the job that is required for the people of this Province. Mr.

Speaker, I have continually asked questions of the Department of Social Services concerning the L2064 May 20, 1986 Vol XL problems at Exon House. The problems were not created by me, the problems were not created by the staff of the Exon House and the problems are not being created over night, Mr. Speaker, the problems have been there for a number of years. For some strange reason, reasons that I find very difficult to understand, I just cannot un4erstand how people can be so cold as to ignore the problems that are there.

It would be very simple if they would recognize them to solve them, very simply, if the problems are there, the place is understaffed. Spend a few dollars instead of making a strain on the staff who are presently working there, make it easier. Instead of one person having to work with four or five of the residents, cut that down and increase the staff so probably we can see one on two or one on one even, if it is possible, but one on two would greatly solve the problem. We are not attacking any individual at Exon House, whether it be the resident, whether it be the administrator, whether it be the staff.

What we are attacking and what I am going to continue to attack is the way in which the place has been neglected. The only thing I can suggest as a reason is a lack of money from the government of today and especially, I think the other thing ·· is the lack of concern by the Minister of Social Services. I think that is the most important thing. The fact of him not admitting that there is a serious problem there. If the Minister of Social Services would sit down and realize that me asking questions is not creating the problems, that the problems are there. He could seriously No. 35 R2064

look at it and say, • Look, yes, the problems are there. For a few dollars we could probably alleviate a lot of the problems.' The ·members opposite, like the member for Torngat Mountains (Kr. Warren) just stood in his place for four or five minutes and suggested the member for Port de Grave, myself, would attack and make it harder on the residents of Exon House or the ·staff of Exon House is disgusting because it is not solving - MR. WARREN: It is true though! MR. EFFORD: ·If I asked a question about a problem how anybody can justify - MR. WARREN: You are creating the pr~blem. MR.

EFFORD: The member for Torngat Mountains is explaining exactly why the problems are there, because they tend to ignore and not to realize that the problems are there and to do anything about it. MR. WARREN: You have no proof. report. MR. EFFORD: Show me the As long as we ask the questions, it is the responsibility of the Minister of Social Services (Kr. Brett) to recognize that the problems are there, to recognize that they are ongoing problems and that there have been problems there for a number of years, Kr. Speaker. MR. WARREN: A point or order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Hickey): Order, please!

L2065· Kay 20 ,- 1986 Vol XL A point of order, the hon. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, once again I will say that the hon. member for Port de Grave (Mr. Effort) comes into this House time and time and time again and he blows everything out of proportion, he talks about a report, he has not tabled that report yet. I would like to see the report that the hon. member is talking about and maybe, Hr.

Speaker, if he would table the report that he is talking about, in fact, the report that he has waved in his hand on several occasions, well, if there is a report available, why does the hon. member not table the report and then we will know what he is talking about. MR. TUL.K: To . that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! To that point of order, the hon. the member for Fogo. MR. TUL.K: The hon. gentleman is doing something which the members on the other side have been trying to do.

We saw the GOOD squad, G-0-0-D, come in to try and do the same thing, he is trying to protect a very weak minister. Now, as the member for Port de Grave (Mr. Efford) was saying, all he is doing is pointing out the inadequacies of the government and the minister, which is his job. I will tell the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) that he can stand as much as he likes in the House, the fact of the matter is is that that member is going to do No. 35 R2065

his job, I would also say one other thing to the administration, I notice that the benches are getting thinner over there all the time, that if they . are going to engage in game of wits, then send somebody with a wit. MR. SPEAKER (Hickey): Order, please! There · is no point of order. There is obviously a difference of opinion ·between two hon. members. The hon. the member for Port de Grave. MR. EFFORD: Kr. Speaker, in the Estimates Committee we saw exactly what is going on here today.

In fact, during the Estimates Committee, one of the successful one and the one that we got the most information from was when we had the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies, the hon. Mr. Power. I think that was the one that where we had no interference from any members of the government and had absolutely no problems. We asked some very sensible questions and we got some decent answers in return. But in the Social Services one, we always seemed to strike a nerve.

I guess that goes to prove exactly what I have been saying and why I have been asking questions because there must have been problems there but the government is not willing to admit it. For some strange reason they figured that by threatening us and making statements that we were hurting the staff at Exon House and hurting some of the other people there that they would shut us up. I can assure the members opposite, the members of government, and I can assure the Minister of Social L2066 Kay 20, 1986 Vol XL Services (Mr. Brett), as long as I have the strength ·to .stand in this bon.

House of Assembly that I am going to ask questions pertaining to the Department of Social Services. It ~s up to the minister and/or his department to advise us on what the situation is , not to at tack us . The Minister of Social Services is going to have to realize that h~s responsibility lies in not attacking the questions but checking out and seeing if the problems are there in relation to the questions and if they are the more probable thing to do, the more comparable thing to do would be to do something about all of these things and the very serious things.

I have read two reports recently concerning the problems at Exon House and I am amazed that those problems that were recognized some years ago are still there today. I make reference to that in talking to the staff that is presently working there. They have verified quote after quote, word after word, exactly what was brought out in the 1977 report and then a report that was done a few years after. It is strange to find out why these problems are ongoing there. But a strange thing came forth just a couple of weeks ago when I asked a question about a bomb scare and I was accused of attacking.

The Minister of Social Services did recognize after the second time that there was a bomb scare but I do not think he realized why I was asking a question or the importance of it because it was said to me when the bomb scare was reported that it was not taken seriously. Nine times out of ten, a bomb scare call around here is a hoax. No. 35 R2066

My question is to anybody who has any responsibility towards any department or any building. Who is going to take the responsibility at the tenth time? The other nine times are a hoax but when that tenth time comes up, who can sit there and say. ••yes. they are all hoaxes? .. · What about that night at Exon House and it was not the hoax, it was for real? I find it very strange, Mr.

Speaker, that that night it was not taken seriously enough number one, for the place to be evacuated; number two, for the fire department to be called in; and number three, for the staff from Exon House, with the police, to have to search for that bomb. Now. the people who work at Exon House, Mr. Speaker, - MR. SPEAKER (Hickey) : Order, please! I should tell the hon. member he has about two minutes. MR. EFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Those are the reasons why I ask those questions. Then the next night I asked the minister if he was aware that there was a prowler.

A bomb scare was made at Exon House and, fortunately, it was a hoax. I would not like to be in the position to take the responsibility if it was not a hoax. But the next night there was a prowler found lurking in the building. Now, those are very serious allegations. I asked the minister was he aware of it and if he was not, to check it out. To this date I have had no reply back from the Minister of Social Services. The question that has got to be L2067 May 20, 1986 Vol XL answered is, why was the place not evacuated. Why was the fire department not called in? · Why did the staff have to search for the bomb?

And who, if ever this happens again, would take the responsibility if it becomes a reality and not a hoax? Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. BRETT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Social Services. MR. BRETT: Mr. Speaker, I would like to take a few minutes to reply to some of the questions or allegations made by the hon. the member for Port de Grav~. I found it extremely strange, Mr. Speaker. that the estimates of my department were debated for, I believe, nine hours, probably more time than was spent with any other department of government.

I do not know the exact number of programmes that we have in the department. I think there are something like five or six major programmes. The whole nine hours was spent debating one programme, or most of the nine hours. Some other members, other than the one from Port de Grave, did spend some time on some of the other programmes but the majority of the time was spent on Group Homes. It would not have been as bad if they had been really debating the philosophy as to whether or not closing out institutions like Exon House and moving them in to Group Homes was good or bad.

It was that these same questions kept coming over and over and over. The questions were answered over -No. 35 R2067

and over and over. member choose not answers. But the bon. to take the I believe that the bon. member got himself and his party into some, not trouble altogether, but I really do not believe that he had the support of all of his colleagues in the House. I believe that a lot of them understand exactly what it is that we are trying to do in closing Exon House. I think ·they recognize and realize that really he did not have any proof of what he was saying and that, in fact, he did not understand the situation.

The Newfoundland branch of the Canadian Association for the Mentally Retarded, along with many other people, were extremely upset about the remarks that were emanating from that hon. gentleman because there were no facts in it. I would like to get back for a few minutes to what happened in this House on Ap~il 10 and on April 14. The bon. member stood up in his place and he waved a piece of paper at me and he said, 'What are you going to do about this'? Now, that is tantamount to somebody saying to me, 'I have something in my pocket' .

They do not take it out but they say, 'I have something in my pocket and it is going to hurt you and what are you going to do about it'. Obviously, if the bon. member or somebody has something- in their pocket, you do not know what it is they are talking about. It is extremely difficult to comment on something that is hidden. But I was expected to respond to this so-called piece of pape~. He alleged at the time that a report was done or an L2068 Kay 20, 1986 Vol XL investigation or whatever at Exon House which indicated that there was a high bacteria count at the building. I wish that the Minister of Health (Dr.

Twomey) .could speak on this rather than me because obviously there are many ·kinds of bacteria, some are dangerous and some are not. Some kinds of bacteria are with us all the time. Every time we open our mouth bacteria comes from it. That type of bacteria is not dangerous. So I do not know what kind of bacteria he is talking about. But on Ap~il 10 he waved this piece of paper and he said he had a report which indicated a high bacterial account at Exon House. Then on the April 14, he rose in the House again indicating that when he got the report he would table it.

Now, unfortunately for a lot of people around this Province, people who work at Exon House and people who have children at Exon House, unfortunately for them. the hon. member neve~, ever saw fit to table that report. I do not believe that the bon. member is really being very responsible because if such a report exists and I realize that I have said this in the House before, it was done without the knowledge of the Administrate~ of Exon House, any of the staff at Exon House and it was done without the knowledge of anybody at the Departments of Health and Social Services. MR.

EFFORD: Be careful of what you are saying. MR. BRETT: I have not suggested the bon. member does not have the report, but if he does have it I believe he is very irresponsible in not tabling it in the House. No. 35 R2068

MR. EFFORD: What ~epo~t is that? - MR. SPEAKER: O~de~. please! MR. BRETT: And I would like to know what the hon. membe~ is trying to hide? MR. EFFORD: Time will tell. MR. BRETT: I believe that if the hon. member is really concerned, as he likes to suggest that he is, fo~ the children at Exon House, for the pa~ents of these children, if he has knowledge that a condition exists or a report exists then I believe it is encumbent upon that gentleman to table that report so proper action can be taken. None of my staff, as I indicated, no one in Health and no one in Social Services has any knowledge of the report.

He should table it. It does not make any difference to me politically whethe~ he does or whether he does not. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. BRETT: No, no, it really does not. It makes no difference to me one way or the other, but it makes a lot of difference to the people who have children there and to the children who are there. MR. EFFORD: You will have to resign when I table this report. MR. BRETT: I did not hear all that the bon. gentleman outside. scare. .

He the House. said because · I was He mentioned the bomb asked me a question in I do not know why I L2069 May 20, 1986 Vol XL should have to answer the actions of the police. I was not in town and I am never in town on weekends, but when the bomb scare occurred, I was notified as quickly as was possible. It is my understanding that the police were called. The threat was made to the police and not to the staff at Exon House. That is my understanding. The police arrived at the institution. I do not have the authority to suggest or to ·tell the police how they conduct a search.

I suggest that they should have the wherewithal and the knowledge to know how to do that so~t of thing. I do not believe that I have the right to question that sort of thing. A search was made, it was found that it was a hoax. I would suggest to the bon. gentleman that, and I am not suggesting that the place should have been evacuated, but it is extremely difficult to move forty or fifty children, the type of children who are there, children and adults. It is extremely difficult to do it. MR. EFFORD: Would the bon. member permit a question? MR. BRETT: No, I will not permit a question.

The bon. member will have his turn to speak. Anyway, the bomb scare was investigated. It was found to be a hoax and, of course, I understand the bon. gentleman's concern. One of those days there is going to be a threat and probably there will be a bomb. I recognize the se~iousness of that. But I do not know how the bon. gentleman expects me to be responsible for the type of search that was conducted. No. 35 R2069

The prowler, again, the staff, I· hope they are not paranoid, although the bon. gentleman has said enough in the past three or four months that everyone down there should be paranoid, but there is no reason for them to call me every time a child sneezes or gets a cold or whatever. I mean, I have had prowlers - MR. EFFORD: That is a disgrace. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. BRETT: - around my home. I would suggest that there are other people in this House who have had prowlers. If there is a prowler around Exon House, then I suppose the obvious thing to do - MR. EFFORD: He was in Exon House. MR.

BRETT: Or in Exon House, yes. Then the obvious thing, again, is - MR. EFFORD: Now - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. BRETT: - to call the police. There is no real reason for the staff to call me. I would suggest that the bon. member's tactics are, sort of, frightening. I have no objections to questions and I will do my best to answer them.

But I would suggest that if the bon. member is concerned, as I think he is concerned, but before he gets up in the House of Assembly or goes to the media and makes statements L2070 May 20, 1986 Vol XL that have a tendancy to frighten and to get people upset, that the first thing he should do is to check them out. I believe, as a member of this House and as a responsible person, that he has an obligation to do just that. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: · Order, please! The bon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULIC: Mr.

Speaker, I recognize that the Minister of Social Services in the Estimates Committee was put under a tremendous amount of strain by the member for Port de Grave (Mr. Efford) with the piercing questions that he asked him. I will not go back to that. But I will go back to what was brought up in this House on Thursday, I believe, in regards to the bomb scare at Exon House. What the member for Port de Grave is talking about is not necessarily what happened on a particular night or in this particular case, although that illustrates quite well what he is talking about. That is the kind of procedures that are in place.

Now, the minister stands there and he says that he does not have authority to tell the police what to do. But surely, with his colleague, the Minister of Justice (Ms. Verge), he has the wherewithal to work out who is going to se.arch Exon House in the case of a bomb scare and in this particular case, he must surely admit that it should not be the employees of Exon House who do that. Now that is the purpose of the No. 35 R2070

question from the member for Port de Grave. Surely the minister has the ministerial responsibility, as Your Honour well knows as he was the Minister of Social Services at on point, to see that those procedures are put in place. It is very obvious that they were not in place on Thursday night and the staff at Exon Ho~se, as I understand it, were asked to conduct a search to see if indeed there was a bomb in that place. It is fine for anybody to stand in this House and say that nine out of ten times there is no danger because the threat is not real. That is fine and dandy.

But somebody has to ask the question, 'What about the tenth time when this happens'? Are the correct procedures in place? I just heard the minister stand and say that it- is difficult to evacuate Exon House. Well, sure! Anybody in his ~ight mind knows that with the type of clientele that is at Exon House that it is difficult to evacuate Exon House but that is no excuse for not having it done.

Surely, the procedures for evacuation in case of a bomb scare, in case of a fire it could have just as easily been a fire and it would have been just as difficult to evacuate the clients of Exon House as it was with the threat of a bomb scare. That is no excuse, to say it was difficult. It has to be done. I do not want to spend too long on this because I want to tal~ about some other things. But surely the whole point of the questions from the member for Port de Grave is, as the Opposition spokesman, to hold him responsible, as a Minister of the Crown, for seeing that that was done or was not done.

In this particular case, it L2071 Kay 20, 1986 Vol XL is very obvious that it was not done. We had the Minister of Justice (Ks. Verge) stand in this House and say that she was going to investigate -it. · Well, to thi~ point in time this House has not been informed as to what the results of that investigation were. The police frightened. the life, I understand, out of one person who was wondering if something she was about to touch was a bomb or not. Did the police indeed go in and ask that that be done? Why are the administrative procedures not in place? It is very obvious that they are not.

The minister can stand over there all he wishes and accuse the member for Port de Grave of being an alarmist or being this, that or the other thing. As the present person in the Chair knows full well as he has had to deal with it as a Minister of the Crown as well, the truth of the matter is that the member for Port de Grave was perfectly within his right and doing his job to stand in his place and ask if those procedures were in place. It is very obvious they were not. Perhaps that is what is upsetting the Minister of Social Services. Kr.

Speaker, I do not know how much time I have left, probably five or six minutes. I have a number of issues here that I want to deal with. One of them relates to the business of education which I understand falls under this heading as well, in particular, the position of superintendents in the Province. The member for Gander (Mr. Baker) knows full well what I am talking about. We work with the same board and under the same circumstances. I can tell this House the Minister of Education (Mr. Hearn) the other day begged the question. He just No. 35 R2071

-1 hid behind the legislation that exists in this Province by saying that the legislation is in place and the school boards are the people who run schools and administer schools. As Your Honour would know, something on paper can look very well but, as a matter of fact, may not be the actual case. I suggested to the former Minister of Education. who is now the Minister of Justice, that what we have in place in this Province is a system of education whereby thirty-five, forty. fifty superintendents are really running the educational system.

For example, in the Terra Nova Integrated School Board, I have had occasion recently where the people of Davisville - Main Point have been threatened with having their school closed. As a matter of fact, they were told that the decision had already been made by the school board, that the decision was made to close their school and they were going to phase out part of it in 1986 and in 1987 it was going to close down completely. That memo was sent under the guise of the Terra Nova Integrated School Board when, in actual fact, it was the superintendent who put it together.

Now listen to this: They were told that the decision had been made. Then the next line was a pure insult to anybody's intelligence, inviting them to come and consult with the board as to the decision. I say to this House and I say to the Minister of Education and I wish he were in his seat because he knows what I am talking about. I gave him a copy of the memo that was sent out to the parents at Davisville - Main Point. I say that the person who controlled L2072 Kay 20, 1986 Vol XL that board - it is very easy to figure out why.

If Your Honour collects all the information for this House and he goes through it and he ·sifts through the information and sees what goes out to school board members, then who is going to be in control? It is obvious. The superintendent is in control of school boards, technically. Legally, he is not supposed to be. Most of those people who sit on school boards are volunteers and they probably find one hour a week or on weekends to tend to school board matters. Running a school board is a complicated matter. Here we have an example of where the professionals are really telling the lay people what to do.

There is no better evidence of that, Your Honour, than to look at the number of district superintendents that have been fired in Newfoundland. Unless I am greatly mistaken, there has not been since January 1, 1969, when the Act was put in place, not one superintendent that I know of, and last year the Minister of Education (Mr. Hearn) certainly did not know of one superintendent who has been fired. Yet, if you look across North America, and look across the rest of Canada, and the member for Port au Port (Mr.

Hodder) will know what I am talking about, they fall like ducks over decoys on the Northeast Coast of the Province in the Spring. They have a job today and tomorrow they do not have one. The question that has to be asked is why that is the case. The truth of the matter is that those superintendents are building their own little empires. I want to suggest to the Minister of Education that if he has any power at all, and he has very little, No. 35 R2072

and I know that some people may say this . is not politically popular to do - maybe it is not, but it is the truth - I want to say there are teachers in this Province who are afraid to open to their face because they are not afraid of the members of school board, but they are afraid of that magnificent, ominpresent creature called the superintendent.

I can tell you now that I can go through Terra Nova Integrated School Board and I will not find five people who will stand up against the superintendent because today, where we have declining enrollments, and layoffs etc. , they are frightened to death of losing their jobs. MR. HODDER: Has there ever been one fired? MR. TULK: Never in this Province that I know of has there been a superintendent fired.

The member for Port au Port may have been out, but I was just saying if you look at the rest of Canada and the United States, they are like ducks over decoys on the Northeast Coast of the Province, when you fly over, you may come out alive and you may not. They are there one day and the next day they have no job because the school boards do control them in this particular case. But in our Province, they are building their own little empires. I want to suggest to the Minister of Education that I pity him to be quite frankly.

It is a job that I would not want as Minister of Education in this Province because he has about as much power to run education in this Province as my five year old son, who is presently sitting in an apartment watching cartoons. L2073 Kay 20, 1986 Vol XL Sure, he doles out a bit of cash in the Spring to the school boards, and I suppose if he has got a little bit extra to give them, he may be able -to hold something over the heads of the superintendents in this Province, but only very little. I suppose if we were all Minister of Education we would think the same thing.

He thinks that somehow he has something to say about curriculum when, in actual fact, he has absolutely nothing to say. There is only one person that says anything about curriculum and that is the person in the classroom, the teacher. That is the only person that really knows what the curriculum is and knows what it is going to be. So I want to make that point. I wish the Minister of Education were here, because I tell you if he can find some way in this Province to make superintendents of education more accountable to the people that they serve, then he will have no trouble getting support from this side.

I will tell you what we are seeing happen and the member for Gander (Kr. Baker) was absolutely right the other day when he asked the question about resettlement. If you go out, for example, to Davidsville - Main Point, where the school at one point was closed, I happened to be the co-ordinating principal under another superintendent, a very enlightened man by the name of Kr. Hudson Davis. That community was dying. We said 'let us bring back the school'. We brought it back, put it there, and it was one of the better schools in my system of the seven or eight schools that I had. What are we seeing today?

We are being told that in 1987 that school . again is no longer going to exist and - Ho. 35 R2073

MR. SPEAKER (Hickey): Order, please! The bon. member's time has expired. MR. TULK: - I will· tell school is conununity is resettlement. is. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! you that once that gone, then that gone. That is That is the way it The bon. the member's time is up. MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Burin - Placentia West. MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, I would just like to have a few brief words in the debate as it relates to the estimates on Social Services.

I think most members have spoken here today to the departments that have been dealt with during the past Estimate Committee meetings, particularly, Mr. Speaker, the Justice and Social Services Departments, which I had the opportunity to sit in on and be part of the meeting myself as a member, Mr. Speaker. As a matter of fact, in the beginning I was part of both conunittees. However, as it relates to the Department of Social Services, I would like to have a few brief conunents on that if I may. Mr.

Speaker, the Department of Social Services is involved very deeply right now in the nursing homes that have been extended and, I guess, initiated throughout the Province. I happen to have one that has been opened in my own district now, in Marystown, for L2074 May 20, 1986 Vol XL the past couple · of years, I guess. The formation of the commit tee goes back to my days as a social worker. For that reason I have been fairly close to the Group Homes proposals that have existed in the Province and certainly, Mr. Speaker·, as it relates to the one in my district.

Some people have questioned the professionalism of the people involved in the operation of Group Homes. I believe that the minister has demonstrated and listed the qualifications of a number of the people involved. I recall a few weeks ago where there was an

article in the paper or a letter in the paper from Mr. Fraser Piccott who dealt specifically with some of the charges that have been made by one of the bon. members opposite. So I believe, Mr. Speaker, that the minister, Mr. Piccott and all of the other people involved in mental retardation have dealt quite adequately with the operations of the Group Homes, with the staff of the Group Homes and with the professional manner in which the Group Homes in this Province have . been operating, certainly with the professionalism that is associated with these people who are working. Beyond that, Mr.

Speaker, as you yourself are aware because you have played a very important role into the formation of the Group Home policy in this Province, I think when one looks at the people who have sponsored the Group Home operations, the churches that have been involved as well as the number of professional, dedicated and conunitted individuals in this Province who make up the boards of these Group Homes, it is indeed indicative of the type of priority that the Department of Social Services and social workers have No. 35 R2074

siven to operations. the Group Home As well, Mr. Speaker, as we deal specifically with other areas of the Department of Social Services, having been a social worker in this Province and working with the Department of Social Services before entering politics myself for some ten years I can say, Mr. Speaker, that the Department of Social Services has one of the most dedicated and committed sroups of professional people of any department in this government, or of any other group of professional people in this Province. As well, Mr.

Speaker, the estimates the Health programme in this Province was discussed quite extensively. I want to say, Mr. Speaker, that as it relates to various aspects of health development and health policies in this Province, I believe in my own district right now we are seeins tremendous strides in trying to improve the health system in this Province. We have seen, Mr. Speaker, the construction of the new hospital in my district at Salt ·Pond - Burin; a new hospital with seventy-five beds, Mr. Speaker, with all the new and essential parts required to improve health services. It is my understanding that it is ahead of

schedule and we look forward to the opening of that some time in 1986. I would say, Mr. Speaker, that that hospital is and has been a priority of the Peckford Administration. We have all known that for a number of years. We have all know, Mr. Speaker, particularly on the Burin Peninsula, the policy of the Liberal Party. The Liberal L2075 May 20, 1986 Vol XL Government as it related to the health system in this Province, their policy, Mr. Speaker, was explained quite adequately oy the former Minister of Health in the Liberal regime and that was to give the Burin Peninsula, not a new hospital, Mr.

Speaker, not to upgrade the hospital system but to give an improved ambulance s~rvice to the Burin Peninsula. That was the grand total, Mr. Speaker, of the Liberal Party's policy as it related to health care in this Province. The record, Mr. Speaker, should show that the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry), who represented the district of Burin-Placentia West one time, was indeed one of the people who made a promise and did not fulfill it, who led the people down the garden path, or tried to lead the people down the garden path, Mr..

Speaker, as it related to the health care system in that district: It was the Leader of the Opposition who promised the hospital and yet the best effort he made was to hire a bulldozer for the week of the election campaign and then bid it farewell immediately following it. Anyone who had the opportunity to see that hospital on the Burin Peninsula must realize the commitment that this government has to health services in this Province. As I travelled throughout my district, particularly during the past weekend, one of the positive things that was coming from the district, Mr.

Speaker - there were several but that was one of them - was as it related to the government's belief in improving the health care system. People pointed to the new hospital that is under construction at Salt Pond. That hospital, Mr. Speaker, No. 35 R2075

is indeed something that I am very proud of. Mr. Speaker, in all fairness I think I should say that hospital is obviously a testimony to the . hard work of a group of dedicated individuals on the Burin Peninsula who worked on the Burin Peninsula and for a number of years were actively pursuing a hospital for the Burin Peninsula. I believe, Mr. Speaker, that together, myself as the MHA and certainly with the Peckford Administration, we were able to fulfill the commitments and the needs of these people. I can assure you that it is my understanding from the Minister of Health (Dr.

Twomey) that very shortly the administrative board of the new hospital will be put in place and we will see some results from the construction of that from that point on. Mr. Speaker, as it relates to the senior citizens' homes in this Province, we all realize that these homes are being demanded by, I guess, every district, every community or town in the Province. The government is doing the best they can with the finances available to meet the needs and requirements for these senior citizens' homes.

Just recently, I believe, there was an extension to the cottages approved for the senior citizens' home in Grand Bank on the Burin Peninsula. I look forward, certainly, to improved senior citizens' facilities on the Burin Peninsula over the next few years. As it relates to the other departments that we dealt with, Mr.

Speaker, particularly the Department of Education, the reorganized high school system, the School Tax Authority, the numbers of people going into L2076 Kay 20, 1986 Vol XL education and leaving other parts of the system, were all very well dealt with and certainly very adequately responded to by the Minister of Education (Mr. Hearn). The minister was a teacher in this Province for a number of years, Mr. Speaker, and he is regarded, I believe, by the teachers in this Province as one of their peers. He ~s a man with a great sense of dedication.

He brings a great deal of comm.i tment to the educational system in this Province and I believe everybody would agree with me, Mr. Speaker, that we are certainly fortunate that the educational system has such an outstanding minister in the present Minister of Education. I believe, Mr. Speaker, my time is about to expire. In all of the other departments we dealt with, I believe the ministers did an excellent job, particularly the ones I sat in on, the Department of Social Services, Education and the Department of Culture, Recreation and Youth.

I sat in on the Department of Culture, Recreation and Youth meeting for a few hours. I can say that the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth (Mr. Matthews), who has had a number of years experience in his work, is indeed a dedicated person. Under his leadership, the department has been well operated and has served ·. well, and I can speak particularly for my own district. The minister and I will be in my district this weekend, Mr. Speaker, to turn on the lights at a new softball diamond at Marystown, the first set of lights for any ball field on the Burin Peninsula.

That to me and my district demonstrates the minister's recreation. No. 35 commitment to If my time is up now, R2076

Mr. Speaker, I will get back to cluing up later. MR. BAKER: -Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Gander. MR. BAKER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. On rare occasions when I am sitting in the House listening to members give speeches, I sometimes wonder about the truth of what goes on here. Truth: What is truth? ' I looked up in a couple of dictionaries, Kr. Speaker, the definition . of what truth is. Perhaps the most acceptable definition that I could arrive at is that it is • the body of real things, events and facts'. Of course, Kr. . Speaker, that also· raises the question as to what is real and what is unreal. I had the same problem with many other

definitions of truth. I took the trouble to do that because one of the things that has astounded, amazed and shocked me about what goes on in the House is that there seems to be a distinction made here and to me it is a distinction that I would not have made until I became used to the House, and that is a distinction between truth and political posturing. When you are posturing politically does that then come under the aegis of the word 'truth?' I suppose the implication could be that everybody knows that what you are saying is an exaggeration, if you want to put it that way, Kr.

Speaker - I will call it an exaggeration - therefore it is acceptable as truth. I wonder if this is the process that goes on L2077 Kay 20, 1986 -Vol XL here. Perhaps, Mr. Speaker, I can relate my concerns to a couple of specifics. One of the topics that came up in the Estimates Committee hearings had to do with the Department of Social Services, Exon House, Group Homes and so on. That topic came up in the House many times as well. I was part of that process, at least I listened and was part of the process in the House.

It seems to me that the results that came out of it and some of the statements that were made afterwards and so on, I suppose , Kr. Speaker, to be kind, I would call it political posturing, trying to paint the opposition as being against Group Homes as a result of this occurrence and against the Group Home concept. When questions are asked about the operation of the facility that is in the process of being closed down and questions about the operation and so on, now, how did that get translated into the Liberal Party's position as being opposed to Group Homes and the Group Home concept? KR.

MARSHALL: Could I ask a question? MR. BAKER: Yes. KR. MARSHALL: If the bon. gentleman is speaking about this issue, it is very germane. Will the bon. gentleman given an account to this House, because I believe he and the member for Stephenville (Mr. K. Aylward) were in Gander at a meeting of the supporters and the parents of many people who were involved in these homes, would he explain to the House the type of No. 35 R2077

distress and agony that was caused to these people by the statements that were made by the hon. the member for Port de Grave (Mr. Efford) and apologize to the House for it? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Gander. MR. BAKER: Now, here is · an example, Mr. Speaker, of exactly what I am talking about. ·The Government House Leader, a very knowledgeable person, we all assume, got up then and tried to turn the thing around a bit. My problem, if I could say through you, Mr.

Speaker, to the Government House Leader, is that a statement or a position carne out of this discussion that was not the truth and that I accept as political posturing. As I pointed out earlier, I am disturbed that political posturing has come to be accepted as part of this umbrella of truth. That is really what I am concerned about, Mr. Speaker. It is a very deep concern and I am very serious when I am saying this.

I am not trying to waste the time of the House because .I think it is an important point, how that particular discussion could have evolved into the Opposition being against Group Homes or the Opposition attacking the residents. Mr. Speaker, we did not attack any residents. We are not against the Group Horne concept. To answer the question posed by the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) , I was certainly at that convention, Mr. Speaker. I certainly spoke to a lot of people.

As a matter of fact, the Government House Leader would be interested to know that I spoke to the whole convention for four or five minutes and I L2078 May 20, 1986 Vol XL explained exactly what our position is with regard to ·Group Homes . I was speaking personally but they understood. It was not uncomfortable. As a matter of fact it was very comfortable. I knew a lot of these people. I do not think that they actually believed that we were against the Group Horne concept. I did not meet anyone who did. So my problem is the taking of an event and making something out of it that is not there.

There are many other occasions or things that have happened to me since I became a member of this House, Mr. Speaker, that are much more obvious than that. First when I carne here, a few years ago, I had a reputation of being, what is called an anti-spray activist. Members opposite, ministers particularly, would twist that and say, • Ah ha, he is against protecting the forests'. They are two different things, Mr. Speaker. I do not know whether they realize in their own minds that they are two different things. MR. TULK: You were not anti-spray, were you? MR.

BAKER: Certainly, spray. anti that kind of I do not know whether they have sorted out in their own minds as to the two things being tied together or whether they actually know the difference and simply stating something that is not true. There are a number of other instances, Mr. Speaker. One just carne to my mind from the last speaker, the member for Burin - Placentia West (Mr. Tobin). He No. 35 R2078

stated Liberal policy for health care on the Burin Peninsula. He said that Liberal policy for health care on the Burin Peninsula was that we would have been in favour of improving an ambulance system and nothing else, no new hospital down there and so on. That is what he said; check Hansard. That was Liberal policy. Now, how he could get from our position on health care that policy as Liberal policy for the Burin Peninsula is beyond me. It seems to me that again it is an exaggeration. It has no basis in truth and yet, I guess, it has come to be expected as political posturing in the House.

I am not altogether sure, Mr. Speaker, that that is the proper way to proceed in this House. Another example, the Premier earlier this year was quite definite in his statements about my position with regards to EPA pulling out of Gander. Again, we all recognized it, Mr. Speaker, as political posturing. I am sure there is not a single person in this Chamber who actually believed what the Premier was saying. Yet, it was said and nobody believed it. The Premier did not believe it when he was saying it and yet we continue to do these things under the guise of political posturing. Hr. Speaker, it is a real concern.

The same thing is true of the

interpretations, Mr. Speaker, of what went on in the Estimates Committee hearings. The same is true. There is a lot of political posturing. It broke out in the Committees a number of times and it overflowed into this Chamber, the kind of thing that was going on in the Estimates Commit tee hearing. I try to sort it out in my own mind what is the truth. L2079 May 20, 1986 Vol XL HR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! The bon. member's time has elapsed. HR. BAKER: Ten seconds, Mr. Speaker.

I often try to sort it out in my own mind as to what is the truth with regards to these committee hearings and all I can say is that the truth is what I saw and what I saw happen is not necessarily what was portrayed in this House as what happened, especially by members opposite. Mr. Speaker, I can continue in this theme a little later but it is something that bothers me greatly. MR. J. CARTER: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the bon. the member for St. John's North. MR. J. CARTER: It is not a contentious point of order.

I understand that the time for this Committee or for this debate ends at 5:30 p.m. and, as Chairman, I am supposed to make a few remarks to wind up the debate. I am just wondering if I might have some guarantee that I will be recognized some time around 5:20 ·P.m. or 5:25 p.m. in this Concurrence Debate. MR. TULK: There is no guarantee. MR. J. CARTER: Well, I will take my seat and I will go after the bon. gentlemen. MR. EFFORD: We are a very effective Opposition and we are going to continue to be No. 35 R2079

that. MR. TULK: To that point of order, Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the hon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULI<: If the hon. gentleman wants to speak now, he can. It is their turn on the other side. If he wants to he can speak now, otherwise there are no guarantees. We know what the hon. gentleman wants to do. He wants to have the last few remarks.

I suggest to Your Honour that all he is trying to do is manipulate the Chair so what you should do, if you really gave the hon. gentleman his just desserts, is ignore him not only for the rest of the evening, but for the rest of this - not Session, what do they call this? MR. EFFORD: Rest of the year. MR. TULK: - for the rest of this Assembly. You would do the Province a service if you ignored him for the rest of his natural life, as a matter of fact. DR. COLLINS: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, if I might just speak briefly to this point of order. It is obvious that the House Leader opposite is very confused in matters. He thinks that this L2080 Kay 20, 1986 Vol XL is a wedding and that he has to speak now or forever hold his peace. MR. TULK: He should, . I say. DR. COLLIN'S: He is just making a very reasonable request so he can be sure to be in a position to answer ·all the questions that may be raised. If he speaks prematurely, there might be someone coming after him who asks a question. So I think the hon. House Leader opposite is just a bit confused. He thinks he is at a marriage ceremony.

MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, I do not think there is any point of order. Normally there is a speaker on one side and then a speaker on the other. MR. TULK: Your Honour knows how to run the place. he does not have to tell you. MR. K. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker. KR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Stephenville. MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you, Kr. Speaker. I have a number of concerns when it comes to the social sector. One of the mai