April 6, 1983 ALBERTA HANSARD 383 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ALBERTA Title: Wednesday, April 6, 1983 2:30 p.m. [The House met at 2:30 p.m.] PRAYERS [Mr. Speaker in the Chair] head: PRESENTING PETITIONS MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, this afternoon I beg leave to present to the Legislative Assembly a petition, signed by some 1,084 residents of the central Peace, requesting early action with respect to an extended care unit to be added to the Spirit River general hospital. head: READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS MR. STILES: Mr.

Speaker, I move that the petitions presented to the Assembly on March 30 be now read and received. [Motion carried] head: INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 31 Energy Resources Conservation Amendment Act, 1983 MR. LEE: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to introduce Bill No. 31, the Energy Resources Conservation Amendment Act, 1983. The purpose of this Bill is to remove the limitation on the maximum number of acting members of the Energy Resources Conservation Board who may be named dur­ ing any period of time. [Leave granted; Bill 31 read a first time] MR.

CRAWFORD: I move that Bill No. 31 be placed on the Order Paper under Government Bills and Orders. [Motion carried] head: TABLING RETURNS AND REPORTS MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, I wish to table the annual report of the Department of Labour for 1981-82. MR. PLANCHE: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to file with the Assembly a new publication of the Department of Eco­ nomic Development, entitled Electronics in Alberta. It's a directory of manufacturers. MRS. LeMESSURlER: Mr. Speaker, I wish to table the 1982 annual report of the Alberta Foundation for the Performing Arts. head: ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Hospital User Fees MR.

NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct the first question to the hon. Minister of Hospitals and Medical Care. It's with respect to paragraph one on page 2 of the telex sent to the minister on March 29, I believe.

This particular paragraph reads: "Provide insured services in a manner that does not impede or preclude, either directly or indirectly whether by charges or otherwise, reasonable access to insured services by persons entitled thereto and eligible therefor." Has the minister obtained any legal advice as to whether or not the user fee as it relates to emergency services violates the spirit of the agreement? MR. SPEAKER: Might I just intervene here, somewhat reluctantly. From the question that's just been asked, I think it's obvious that the

preamble was quite superfluous and unnecessary. The question is complete in itself, and it would probably encumber the question period unduly if we were going to start asking ministers' opinions about quotations. Anyone looking at the question — and un­ doubtedly it will be available in Hansard — will find that the question itself is totally complete and self-contained. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. The reason I read from the text of the telex was so that the minister had the quote on which the question was based.

However, I will put the question directly to the minister: has the government obtained any legal advice with re­ spect to whether access to the emergency hospital system in this province will be impeded by user fees? MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, during the question period last week, I indicated that we had obtained in- house legal opinions on a number of the issues and are proceeding on the basis that we do meet the requirements of the Established Programs Financing Act and the prin­ ciples of medicare.

With respect to these fees, it's impor­ tant to underline that, number one, they are discretionary and, number two, there are large classes of exemptions. Number three is that the fee is passed on to the consumer after he has received the services. So access to the service is in no way being impeded. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the minister. Did the pursuit of legal advice specifically include the user fee as it applies to emergency services? MR. RUSSELL: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, it was inclusive of all the different kinds of fees that are in existence in other provinces, and as we had proposed them. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. Is the minister in a position to assure the House that the undisputed legal advice to the government was that user fees in no way breach the spirit of the agreement, as per any

section of the March 29 telegram from the hon. Minister of Health and Welfare? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I think we've been around this corner before. In effect, the hon. member is asking what the legal advice was, and of course that is not something that is obtained in the question period.

384 ALBERTA HANSARD April 6, 1983 MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, perhaps I could put the question to the minister this way: at this stage, has the government of Alberta undertaken any study to deter­ mine the cost of collecting user fees and whether or not the user fees set out in the maximum

schedule the minis­ ter announced the other day in the House in fact will not in large part be eaten up by administrative costs that have to be borne by hospitals in collecting user fees or in attempting to recover user fees that haven't been paid by patients? MR. RUSSELL: I gave considerable attention to that matter, Mr. Speaker. As you know, all hospitals now have admitting officers, as they have discharge people. We don't believe that any additional people or expenses will be involved. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question.

In evaluating the position he's just announced, that the government doesn't believe there will be extra people required, what assessment has the government made of the very substantial arrears of Albertans to the Alberta health care plan? Has any evaluation been made of those arrears and the cost of collection, as it relates to the user fee the minister is proposing for Alberta hospitals? MR. RUSSELL: Those are two entirely separate and distinct matters, Mr. Speaker. But I wonder if the hon. leader is aware that in a position paper on hospital financing, the Alberta Hospital Association asked for user fees. MR.

NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the minister. That gratuitous information is interesting, but it wasn't the question. [interjections] Well, fine. If you can't answer one question, answer another, I suppose. The question I put specifically to the minister is: what study has been commissioned, what evaluation has been conducted by the department, with respect to the average cost to a hospital of implementation of the user fee program? There must be some information that will be available to members of the Assembly on this matter. MR. RUSSELL: I'll repeat what I said earlier, Mr. Speaker.

The personnel and the mechanism are now in place in all hospitals to collect this. They are now collect­ ing two of the different kinds of user fees that are in our proposed schedule: the admission fee and the preferred accommodation charges. So we don't see that they're going to have to add to personnel or to their administra­ tive functions to put another line on an invoice. But certainly that will be at the discretion of the hospitals, and we're trying to get across that this is not a provincial- ly imposed universal fee.

Every hospital will make the decision, on its own, whether or not to take up all or some of these. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. MR. SPEAKER: Might this be the last supplementary on this topic. MR. NOTLEY: Has the government yet evaluated the position with respect to the portability agreement? One of the principles of health care in the country is the portabil­ ity of services across the country. Will these discretionary user fees be levied against non-Albertans, should they have to go into Alberta hospitals?

What advice, legal or otherwise, has the government obtained with respect to the impact of such levies on the portability of health benefits across the country? MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, it's certainly the intention of the plan that these fees would apply to hospital users whether they're Alberta residents or not, if they're receiv­ ing services in an Alberta hospital. I don't think anybody in this Assembly would expect a person from Saskatche­ wan to be in one bed and not paying the user fee and an Albertan lying in the next bed and paying it.

So certainly it's the intention for all patients in a hospital that has user fees to be treated equally. This may require some amendments to our interprovincial agreements with re­ spect to portability. It could mean that Albertans going to other provinces to receive health care would be levied in a like manner as they would at home, but the essence of portability will still be there. Trust Company Deposits MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct the second question to the hon. Attorney General. It's with respect to the publicized difficulties of Fidelity Trust.

Has the gov­ ernment any contingency plans in place to protect the interests of Alberta depositors, particularly, but also shareholders? MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, it may be that one of my colleagues would want to offer some information to the hon. leader in respect of his question. I take it that the circumstances the hon. leader refers to are based on media reports. I have seen those same reports today and do not have any information, if that's what it is, other than what's been published. In the result, Mr.

Speaker, I think it would be quite wrong to engage in either ques­ tions or answers which call into question a situation which, as to the circumstances, is certainly not clear to me at the present time. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the hon. Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. Has the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs been in a position to review this particular case, and is the department in a position to offer any suggestions to Alberta depositors in Fidelity Trust? MRS. OSTERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, the only information I have had in my office is the same information the Attorney General referred to, and that is press reports. Based on those press reports, I have instructed my de­ partment to get any information that may reasonably be of interest to the Alberta government. Certainly both the Canadian government and other provincial governments have a sort of unwritten agree­ ment, in that we share information on companies that are chartered either federally or in provinces. At this point in time, the federal government has not contacted our de­ partment.

So in my view, it would mean that at this time there is not important information that we need to be aware of. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to either the hon. minister or the Minister of Federal and Intergovernmental Affairs. Has there been any explana­ tion by the federal government as to the reason it is reported to have given for putting Fidelity Trust on a two-week licence?

April 6, 1983 ALBERTA HANSARD 385 MR. HORSMAN: Mr. Speaker, relative to the Depart­ ment of Federal and Intergovernmental Affairs, I would have to take the question as notice. But to my knowledge, there has not been anything that has come to my attention. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to any of the hon. ministers. Given the problems of a major trust company in Ontario, has the government of Alberta developed any contingency plan to assure Alberta depositors that should there be difficulties, their invest­ ments will be secured? MR.

SPEAKER: I'm a little concerned about the buck­ shot approach, to include all the ministers in one ques­ tion. It seems to me that the hon. leader, and anyone else asking a question, selects his minister and takes his chances. MR. NOTLEY: That's a fair comment. I don't always say your observations are fair, but that's a fair comment. [interjections] In that case, let me direct the question to the hon. Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. MRS. OSTERMAN: Mr. Speaker, I think the kinds of guarantees the hon. Leader of the Opposition is speaking to refer to the Canada Deposit Insurance Corporation.

Where that corporation is a party to trust company legis­ lation and other financial institution legislation, it certain­ ly backs the deposits that are made with those institu­ tions, to the tune of $20,000. The hon. leader may also be aware that the federal government has made an undertak­ ing, at least through the press, that they are considering raising that insurance to a $60,000 maximum. But as far as I know, no formal commitment has been communicat­ ed to any of the provinces, and that includes us. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the hon. minister.

Has the government of Alberta made any representation to the government of Canada with respect to raising the ceiling from $20,000 to $60,000, and does the government of Alberta support such a change? MRS. OSTERMAN: Mr. Speaker, in concert with the Ontario department concerned with another trust com­ pany situation, we indicated to Ontario that we certainly were in favor of raising the deposit insurance to the $60,000 level. Pacific Western Airlines MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, my question to the Minister of Transportation is with regard to the special task force on the sale of Pacific Western Airlines.

The minister has indicated that the report from this special task force would be available by the end of March. Could the minister indicate whether his office has received that report and what actions are being contemplated? MR. M. MOORE: First of all, Mr. Speaker, I don't recall having indicated to anyone that it would be availa­ ble by the end of March. MR. NOTLEY: The Premier said it when they were appointed. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary ques­ tion. Then could the minister indicate the deadline date for that report and what objectives have been established for the committee? MR. M.

MOORE: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I'd be pleased to. First of all, there is no deadline. The committee was instructed to provide to the government a report that had a number of criteria attached to it, in terms of the manner and nature in which such a sale might occur. It's my understanding that the committee report should be avail­ able within the next few weeks. I don't want to put any time frame on that, because . . . DR. BUCK: The election's over now. It doesn't matter. MR. M. MOORE: . . . we want to make sure that the committee work is carried out without any pressure of time. Mr.

Speaker, obviously the hon. member knows that, as I indicated earlier, it's not the best time in the world to develop a report suggesting how an air line should be sold. But I have to say that Pacific Western Airlines has the best track record of any air line in Canada, and indeed probably North America. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. I didn't ask for a campaign speech. We had one last November, and at that time the Premier committed to Albertans that a report would be available within four months, January of 1983. And the minister has been publicly quoted as saying the end of March.

It's not here. What are the reasons for the delay, and can the minister explain why those deadlines have not been met? MR. NOTLEY: They've come to their senses. MR. M. MOORE: Mr. Speaker, I'd be delighted to. First of all, the Premier did not promise a report within a certain time frame. What he did say last October was that he had named a committee, instructed them to develop over the course of four months, I believe, a report that would provide the government with some recommenda­ tions with regard to disposal of our assets in Pacific Western Airlines, under certain conditions. DR.

BUCK: Let's face it, it was just a pre-election gimmick. MR. M. MOORE: As I said, that report is expected within the next few weeks. I don't think either I or the Premier have to apologize for the fact that the people who are undertaking that report — one of whom was a very respected member of this Legislature — are taking some time to do it. I for one would rather see them take the time than bring in a report that didn't reflect our concerns. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary.

In terms of the cost of the report, some $300,000, could the minister indicate that the task force will live within that budget, or will we as legislators be asked to allocate additional funds for this prolonged study? MR. M. MOORE: Mr. Speaker, funds in the amount of [$300,000] were obtained by special warrant earlier this year for the purposes of the committee's work, but it has not yet been determined whether even that amount will

386 ALBERTA HANSARD April 6, 1983 be spent. It could well be far less than that; it could well be more. I'm not prepared to provide that information until the committee has completed its report and finalized its budget. The hon. members might be interested in knowing that at the present time, the expenditures of this committee are considerably less than what was anticipated. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. Could the minister indicate whether any interim reporting session has occurred between the minister or any person­ nel of his department and the task force? MR. M. MOORE: Mr.

Speaker, I can only indicate that no preliminary report has been provided to me. Cruise Missile Testing MR. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct this ques­ tion to the Minister of Federal and Intergovernmental Affairs. In light of concerns expressed by thousands of Albertans and Canadians, and most recently the Catholic Bishops . . . [interjections] MR. SPEAKER: Possibly we could get to the question. MR. MARTIN: Settle down, boys, you'll get your chance. [interjections] MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

I think the hon. member knows by now that he's not required to justify his asking of questions by reference to a lot of emminent or other authorities. MR. MARTIN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'm just never sure that they're reading the news, that's all. Is the government giving consideration to representing these concerns to the federal government? MR. HORSMAN: Mr. Speaker, I missed part of what the hon. Member for Edmonton Norwood had in his

preamble. I'm not sure what concerns he is expressing. [interjections] However, if he is referring to the subject of testing cruise missiles at Cold Lake — is that it? MR. MARTIN: Very good. MR. HORSMAN: I would indicate to the Assembly that correspondence went forward from the government of Alberta, under my predecessor.

Subsequently, I have had an exchange of correspondence with the Department of National Defence, relative to making sure that any agreement entered into between the federal government and the United States of America is drafted in such a way that both the safety of the citizens of Alberta and the property of the citizens of Alberta are taken into consideration. MR. MARTIN: A supplementary question. Is the minis­ ter saying that the Alberta government supports testing cruise missiles in Alberta? MR. HORSMAN: Mr.

Speaker, the subject of agree­ ments of the nature of testing relative to cruise missiles or other weapons testing in Alberta, is clearly a matter of the constitutional responsibility of the government of Canada, both with respect to the subject of international treaties or agreements and with respect to the subject of national defence.

That being the case, it is not the posi­ tion of the government of Alberta to take a position other than, as I indicated, to ensure that the testing be con­ ducted in such a way that outside the testing area of the Cold Lake military establishment, the property and per­ sonal interests and concerns of the people of Alberta are properly taken into consideration. MR. MARTIN: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.

Is the minister saying that the position of this government is that the decision by the federal government to permit testing is strictly over the concerns of Albertans, strictly a federal matter, and that the Alberta government doesn't think they should say anything about this? MR. HORSMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I have indicated that the government has expressed concerns that the safety of individual Albertans and the property of Albertans has to be taken into consideration, and that before any final decision is made between the governments of Canada and the United States pursuant to international treaties ar­ rived at between those governments, we would want to ensure that the safety of individuals and their property outside the base, which is of course a federal property and comes under federal jurisdiction, is taken into con­ sideration. That is clear, and we have expressed our concerns in that respect.

At this time, I might point out that we have been assured by the government of Canada that if any such agreement is finally arrived at, relative to the testing of a particular weapon, no nuclear warhead would be at­ tached to those weapons. MR. MARTIN: I hope not. MR. HORSMAN: I'm glad the hon. member is clear on that issue, at least. We have made our position clear to the government of Canada. They have assured us that that would be the case, and I understand that that has also been the discus­ sions between the government of Canada and the gov­ ernment of the United States.

I have received and read a copy of the preliminary agreement entered into, relative to the possible testing of this weapon in Canada. MR. MARTIN: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. In this report, has there been any discussion concerning the possible testing in Alberta of the more advanced and de-stabilizing stealth missile? MR. HORSMAN: Not to my knowledge, Mr. Speaker. MR. MARTIN: A supplementary question. In view of the government's readiness to challenge federal jurisdic­ tion over other . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. MARTIN: Okay, I will ask the question.

Will the government consider holding a province-wide referendum as part of the municipal elections this fall, to give Alber­ tans a chance to express their views on this crucial topic? MR. HORSMAN: No, Mr. Speaker. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the hon. minister. Given the concern expressed by the government of Saskatchewan, have there been any dis­

April 6, 1983 ALBERTA HANSARD 387 cussions between the Minister of Federal and Intergov­ ernmental Affairs of the province of Alberta and the Attorney General of Saskatchewan, with respect to a joint submission to the government of Canada re the testing of the cruise missile? MR. HORSMAN: No, Mr. Speaker, there has not been any such discussion between myself and the Attorney General of the province of Saskatchewan. MR. MARTIN: A supplementary question to the minis­ ter. Is it the position of this government that the moral objections of the people of Alberta to cruise missiles are outside provincial jurisdiction?

Is that what the minister is saying clearly in this House? MR. HORSMAN: Mr. Speaker, I can't be as certain as the hon. Member for Edmonton Norwood as to the moral certainty to which he refers, as to the opinion of the people of this province. [interjections] None the less, it is quite clear that this matter is a federal responsibility, and people's concerns relative to the issue should proper­ ly be directed to the government of Canada, if they have those concerns.

I understand that many Albertans share some concerns, but I also point out that the government of Canada has entered into a treaty with the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. Quite frankly, I think that the question of the defence of Canada is a matter of great concern to all Canadians and, as I have said, that matters should properly be directed to the proper government. MR. MARTIN: A supplementary question to the minister. MR. SPEAKER: Might this be the final supplementary on this topic. MR.

MARTIN: If it were clear and we had an indication — because there's going to be a number of municipal elections where it's on the referendum — that the Alberta people were against cruise missiles, would the government then express its concern to the federal government? MR. SPEAKER: Very, very hypothetical. MR. MARTIN: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. A number of municipalities are going to have this on the ballot this fall, and that would be an indication. If it went that way, I'm asking if they would then move. MR. SPEAKER: What happens this fall will be a fact after this fall. MR. MARTIN: A point of order.

This is not hypothetic­ al; they're going to have this on the ballot. I'm asking if they would then look at it, that's all. MR. SPEAKER: I don't wish to debate the matter with the hon. member, but when a question starts off and says, if something becomes clear this fall, will the government do this and that, that's clearly hypothetical. MR. MARTIN: I'll rephrase it. After the municipal elec­ tions and the contingency plans, will the government then move and express their concerns to the federal government? MR. HORSMAN: Mr. Speaker, we will see what hap­ pens in due course. Hazardous Waste Disposal DR. BUCK: Mr.

Speaker, my question to the hon. Minister of the Environment is a follow-up to a question I asked on March 16, to do with hazardous waste dispos­ al. Is the minister in a position to indicate if the minister or the department is getting close to a decision as to where and when they will be starting a hazardous waste disposal plant? MR. BRADLEY: Mr. Speaker, I'm still awaiting the results of drilling being conducted in the Swan Hills area. After receiving the results of this drilling, I may be in a position to recommend a decision. DR. BUCK: Mr.

Speaker, can the minister indicate if there is any time frame for this report? Is it in the near future, in a two- or six-month period, or is there any indication at all when the decision will be announced? MR. BRADLEY: Mr. Speaker, I expect that the drilling results should be in place toward the end of May. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. Is the minister in a position to indicate if the disposal plant will be in the form of a Crown corporation, or will it be in the private sector? MR. BRADLEY: The operation of the plant will be by the private sector, constructed by the private sector. DR.

BUCK: Mr. Speaker, on a point of clarification, did the minister say "constructed by the private sector"? MR. BRADLEY: Mr. Speaker, the plant will be con­ structed by the private sector. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. Can the minister indicate how extensive the studies are, to indicate what potential effects a hazardous waste dis­ posal site would have on the ground water in the areas being drilled? MR. BRADLEY: Mr.

Speaker, one of the criteria for siting a special waste facility is to ensure that the hydro- geological conditions are such that there will not be any possibility of contamination in the surrounding area. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. Can the minister indicate if it is still the government's policy that the plant will be sited in an area where most of the material is generated? Is that still the philosophy of the government? MR. BRADLEY: Mr. Speaker, the government has fol­ lowed a number of criteria with regard to siting the plant.

Certainly it would be our preference to have a site for a special waste facility as close as possible to the generator of the wastes, given the other criteria we have. MR. SPEAKER: Might this be the final supplementary on this. DR. BUCK: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Can the minister indicate if there's any decision at this time as

388 ALBERTA HANSARD April 6, 1983 to whether the minister and the department are looking at two disposal areas, one in the central part of the province and one in the southern part of the province? MR. BRADLEY: Mr. Speaker, at this point in time we are looking toward siting a single facility. Irrigation Project MR. SHRAKE: Mr. Speaker, could the hon. Minister of the Environment please inform the House why Westeel- Rosco, which is located in the good constituency of Calgary Millican, did not get the contract to supply the corrugated metal pipe in the St.

Mary River Irrigation District main canal rehabilitation — and this was con­ tract No. 8206C, structures — when they had the low tender and received verbal purchase order No. 3285 for job 8211 on December 15, 1982, from Getkate Construction? MR. SPEAKER: With great respect to the hon. member, I thought he was reading from the Order Paper. If it just so happens that by some outside coincidence the minister happens to have this very particular information, he might briefly deal with it. MR. BRADLEY: Mr. Speaker, the contract to which the hon. member refers is between the St.

Mary River Irriga­ tion District and Getkate Construction. As such, the nature of the contract would be a subcontract with Getkate with regard to supplying them with certain ma­ terials, and that is left to the discretion of the contractor. Obviously it's not something the Department of the Envi­ ronment would be involved in, because it's a contract between St. Mary River Irrigation District and Getkate. MR. SHRAKE: A subsequent question. If the low tend­ erer did not get the bid and there would undoubtedly be extra costs, does it come back to us, the provincial government, to pay the extra costs? MR.

NOTLEY: If, if. MR. BRADLEY: Mr. Speaker, the nature of the contract is between the St. Mary River Irrigation District and Getkate. The specific subcontract would be with the suc­ cessful contractor, Getkate. In my understanding, they would be looking to receive the necessary supplies and services at the lowest price, to meet their contract with the St. Mary River Irrigation District. As such, the St. Mary River Irrigation District would have to receive those assurances. The questions the hon. member has should perhaps be directed to the St. Mary River Irriga­ tion District. MR.

SPEAKER: I'm quite aware, of course, that if a question starts with "if", it is hypothetical. But the hon. member has just started on his quota of "ifs". Municipal Plebiscites MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct this ques­ tion to either the Attorney General or the Minister of Municipal Affairs. It's a follow-up to my colleague's question on the cruise missile. In view of the court deci­ sions in both Ontario and British Columbia.

I believe, on the legality of municipalities' holding these plebiscites, has the government of Alberta given any consideration to providing accurate legal information to municipal coun­ cils to clear up an ambiguous situation at the moment, which is placing many councils in the position of having to obtain their own legal advice when court decisions have in fact been made in other parts of the country? MR. KOZIAK. Mr. Speaker, the usual process is for municipalities to seek their own legal advice on circum­ stances that face them. In fact, many of the municipalities have their own in-house legal counsel.

From time to time, we are asked about the specific question the hon. Leader of the Opposition raises. The advice we have is that within the Municipal Government Act there is no authority for council to proceed with the plebiscite. Now, that doesn't prevent anybody else who wants a sampling of public opinion from going out and getting that sampling and paying for it. The only thing is that you are not in the position of requiring the munici­ pality to pay for that sampling of public opinion. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question.

In determining the answer the department is giving mu­ nicipalities, what specific study has been made by de­ partment staff or by lawyers retained by the government of Alberta, to evaluate the court decisions in other parts of the country, which have specifically stated that it is within the scope of municipalities? Is there any informa­ tion with respect to a distinction in Alberta legislation which would make it out of bounds in Alberta but in bounds in B.C. and Ontario? MR. SPEAKER: Of course, the last

part is a legal proposition, pure and simple. MR: NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, then perhaps I'll just leave it at the first part. In supplying this advice to municipal governments, has any assessment been made of court decisions in other provinces, which have indicated that it is within the scope of municipal government? MR. KOZIAK: In responding to the question, Mr. Speaker, I won't be providing legal advice, as that's not the purpose of my responsibilities here or within the rules of the Assembly.

My understanding is that from time to time the de­ partment has been called upon by various municipalities in the province — and I can't be specific as to the number — asking for the department's advice on the issue. The advice we have given is that the best legal advice we've been able to obtain suggests to us that it is not within the jurisdiction of council to deal with such matters as de­ fence. As a result, under the Municipal Government Act they have no authority to seek public opinion on a matter that is not within their area of jurisdiction. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, just one question to the minister.

I realize that's the minister's opinion. My ques­ tion is: in providing that opinion to municipalities across the province, did the government of Alberta study the implications of court decisions in other provinces, which have specifically indicated that it is within municipal scope? MR. KOZIAK: Mr. Speaker, what I was giving the hon. Leader of the Opposition was the result of a legal opinion that was supplied to us, as opposed to the details of that legal opinion. Now the hon. Leader of the Opposition asks the details of that legal opinion. In other words,

April 6, 1983 ALBERTA HANSARD 389 what did the legal opinion take into account? Did it take into account the decisions of other courts? Did it take into account the comparison of the legislation? I imagine a good lawyer would take all those things into account in preparing his legal opinion . . . MR. NOTLEY: You don't know. MR. KOZIAK: . . . and I presume that was taken into account, Mr. Speaker. MR. NOTLEY: Mr.

Speaker, apart from the fact that the minister imagines these things are being taken into ac­ count, is the information being supplied to municipalities that request it from the department in-house, or has the department sought legal opinion outside government lawyers? MR. KOZIAK: Mr. Speaker, we rely on the excellent service the Attorney General provides to us. Some of the top legal brains in the country are located in that depart­ ment. [interjections] MR. SPEAKER: Might this be the final supplementary. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the Attorney General.

I'm sure the legal brains are fine; it's whether or not the brains that get the information are able to adjust to it. [interjections] Is the Attorney General able to advise the House whether, in assessing whether or not this is appropriate and in giving advice to the minister, the lawyers studying the issue examined the precedents in other provinces? MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, in any case — and not simply in the case of this particular opinion — unless the legislation in the other provinces was the same or virtual­ ly the same as ours, the precedents from other courts would not likely be of that much assistance.

Natural Gas Exports MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Energy and Natural Resources. Last week I raised questions with regard to the domestic price of natural gas. Today I'd like to raise whether the minister has met with any federal officials and established a new export pricing policy for natural gas — not the domestic pricing but export pricing. MR. ZAOZIRNY: Mr.

Speaker, as I may have men­ tioned briefly on another occasion in the Assembly, the government of Alberta has been involved in some very extensive discussions, both with industry and with the federal and British Columbia governments at an officials level, by way of an intergovernmental task force, assess­ ing the present marketing arrangements for natural gas sales outside Canada. There has been a series of meetings of the intergovernmental task force. I have discussed this matter on a number of occasions with my federal coun­ terpart, Mr. Chrétien.

As a provincial government, we have had a number of separate and specific meetings with key players in the industry. All those efforts are being moved toward a conclusion and a set of recommendations that would be adopted as the policy and stated position of the government of Alberta with respect to natural gas export marketing. We are endeavoring to conclude those recommendations and the transmittal of same to the federal government in the very near term. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary ques­ tion.

Could the minister indicate whether any tentative arrangement or agreement has been reached with the federal government, in terms of the export of natural gas, that could be presented by Mr. Chrétien on a visit to Washington? MR. ZAOZIRNY: Mr. Speaker, as I mentioned, there certainly have been many discussions. Frankly, I am not aware of what Mr. Chrétien proposes to discuss with the United States officials at his meeting today and wouldn't purport to speak on behalf of Mr. Chrétien in that regard. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, then could the minis­ ter clarify that one of the subjects not on Mr.

Chrétien's agenda is the export price of natural gas at the present time? Is the minister not aware that that is one of the subjects? MR. ZAOZIRNY: Mr. Speaker, I couldn't comment one way or the other on what Mr. Chrétien proposes to discuss with the U.S. official. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary ques­ tion, in light of that answer.

Will the minister assure the people of this province, and this Legislature, that when any presentation with regard to natural gas is made to Washington which is going to influence the revenue of this province and certainly the industry in this province, the Alberta government will have a representative go with Mr. Chrétien to Washington? MR. ZAOZIRNY: First of all, Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is presuming the subject matter of the discus­ sions, and I think it's most inappropriate to make any presumptions in that regard unless he has personally been communicating with Mr. Chrétien recently.

I go on to say that we have been involved in some very specific discus­ sions and have been working very diligently in ensuring that Alberta's interests and the interests of Albertans generally are well represented, recognizing the importance of the natural gas industry to this province. MR. SPEAKER: Might this be the final supplementary. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, could the minister indicate if there is any target date at which time a new policy or a new agreement will be resolved in terms of the new export pricing policy? MR. ZAOZIRNY: Again, Mr.

Speaker, I can only speak to the intentions of this government with respect to bring­ ing forward its recommendations to the federal govern­ ment. I believe I answered the question as to the federal intentions; not only their intentions but in fact the course of action they will follow. Of course, I can't respond to that aspect of the question. That's a matter entirely within federal jurisdiction. MR. SPEAKER: I apologize to the hon. Member for Edmonton Norwood. I hoped to call on him a second time, but we have run past the allotted time for the question period.

390 ALBERTA HANSARD April 6, 1983 ORDERS OF THE DAY head: COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY [Mr. Appleby in the Chair] MR. CHAIRMAN: Will the Committee of Supply please come to order to commence consideration of the govern­ ment estimates of expenditure for 1983-84. Department of Advanced Education MR. CHAIRMAN: Does the minister wish to make any preliminary remarks? MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, it's quite refreshing to return to the Legislative Assembly after the Easter week­ end.

As I gave some thought to the Department of Advanced Education and the kinds of responsibilities we were attempting to achieve, I noted that last Sunday was April 3, which is not news to anybody, but it does mark an important term in my life: eight years as a member of Executive Council and eight years representing my city of Lethbridge in this Legislative Assembly. Since this is the first opportunity I have had to make a quasi-political speech, I thought I would simply take this chance to thank all the voters and my supporters in Lethbridge for returning me for my third term.

In this responsible posi­ tion as Minister of Advanced Education, I hope I can reinforce their confidence in me over the next four years. This will be the ninth budget I have had an opportunity to bring forward. I might say that on looking at the total of $818 million, I am quite taken aback, given the relative size of this dollar responsibility and the size I had in my last portfolio.

My quick calculation suggests that this is something like 120 times larger than the votes in Federal and Intergovernmental Affairs, and that probably sug­ gests decisions 120 times more difficult to deal with in terms of expenditure priorities. I think it is a very important time in terms of advanced education in this province. I know that my daughter, along with many other students across this province, is looking to her advanced educational experiences. A great number of uncertainties are being asked, not just of governments, I hope, but of parents and of educators. What does the future hold?

What kinds of obligations, responsibilities, and opportunities exist for us as a result of an advanced educational experience, and in terms of an economic opportunity to ensure a rewarding and chal­ lenging life? I'm sure those are the key questions on many students' minds.

But it goes beyond that to others who have gone through an educational process, who believe they are qualified at certain levels and are also turning to ad­ vanced educational institutions as part of the remedy for changing their career problems, given the downturn we're experiencing in the economy and the changes in what some would describe as the post-industrial era. There are many questions being asked, and certainly mature stu­ dents are returning to universities and technical institu­ tions to extend their educational opportunities.

I think that's characterized the problems facing Ad­ vanced Education over the past year and a half to two years: questions of substantially increased enrolment and, certainly in the minds of the students, the important people we're serving, difficulties in terms of the institu­ tions themselves in meeting their obligations in terms of qualified people, space, dollars, and dealing with the demands students have put forward.

Everybody under­ stands that enrolments are up, and everybody knows that in December 1982 the government responded to that need by providing an additional $6.5 million for the enrolment which was experienced in the 1982 fall intake. This budget also includes additional dollars for enrol­ ment. We have not made a decision specifically as to how we'll allocate those dollars. At this point, I'll make a public statement that the letters giving the institutions the amount of money that will be forthcoming in '83-84 will be decided upon within the next few days and will be circulated to them.

The holdup at this point is to find some way to fairly and equitably allocate the growth money to the institutions to account for the additional students who are enrolled. I might note that we still have a fairly substantial capital program under way. Everyone is well aware that the Westerra Institute is now in the process of being constructed. As well, I could advise that Athabasca Uni­ versity is under construction. The tenders are in below our estimates. Of course, there are continuing construc­ tion projects in many locations throughout the province, my own city of Lethbridge being one.

We have just completed phase two of the University of Lethbridge and are now completing the trades and technology building at Lethbridge Community College, two very important insti­ tutions not just to the city of Lethbridge but to the province as a whole. At the same time, a new building for the business school — one of my old alumni groups — is under way here at the University of Alberta. I well recall that that debate has been long and hard.

I am very encouraged by the fact that students are moving into the area of business in large numbers, because I believe that's one of the areas where demand for student services will be needed as we move into a highly competitive economic era for the next decade. Red Deer College, Fairview College: my friend Grant Notley and I were able to open Grant Notley college [laughter] — it hasn't quite been named that yet, Grant — Fairview College just this past couple of months.

It was a very enjoyable experience for me to visit the far reaches of the province and join with Grant in kicking off what I think is a very viable and exciting institution. I was very pleased to note that it's one of the few places in Alberta where you can learn to become a beekeeper — one of my childhood fantasies was to become a beekeep­ er, believe it or not — and I was very impressed with the technology being instructed there. At the same time, for those of you who are Harley-Davidson fans, it's the only place in Alberta where you become a qualified motor­ cycle repairman.

Now there's always an alternative for you, Lou, once you retire. In any event, that was a really good experience. I hope that in the future I can get to most of the institutions, along with the MLAs who represent them so effectively, and have a chance to get to know, on a more familiar basis, the instructors, the academics, and the students. There's no question that dollars are the problem. I think it's safe to say that in many instances the capital projects we have constructed over the past 11 years have been fairly substantial, relative to institutions in other provinces.

I think it's safe to say that on most of our campuses the capital facilities are well built. I agree and recognize that student enrolment numbers are increasing. I think it is a very safe statement that our institutions are second to none, both in terms of the capital facilities now

April 6, 1983 ALBERTA HANSARD 391 in place and, secondly, in terms of the academic staff we have attracted to this province because of the excitement presented to them by dealing with young minds and challenging people and also because of the economic environment which has been here in the province of Alberta. To a great extent, I think the capital building phase in Alberta may well be slowing down, drawing to an end, in the sense that we will not have the vast numbers of new capital projects. But we will continue to maintain a modest expansion of capital facilities where those needs are in place.

In that context, this budget has been drafted with a modest program, something in the order of $150 million to continue the expansion under way under the last budget and to implement a modest new construction program. In terms of operating, there is no doubt that most of the institutions face difficulties, because about 80 per cent of their budget is allocated to wages. As wage settlements go, so go their budgets. I think it's a fair assessment to say that the administrators, the boards of governors of these institutions, are very responsible people.

They re­ present their own constituency but, at the same time, they do have a broader responsibility to the people of Alberta in terms of overall expenditures. I think that internal allocation within institutions themselves has been done effectively and efficiently, and on behalf of the govern­ ment of Alberta I want to express our thanks to all those who have served in that capacity, certainly since 1971. I want to close with student finances. There have been some major increases in the amounts of money going to students. We will continue to meet that demand for student finance.

I don't want to be too political in this statement, but it is safe to say that the province of Alberta far exceeds the benefits under student finances of any other province. For example, it is possible to get as much as $4,500, if my numbers are correct, for student awards, which are non-repayable. Once the student grad­ uates, there is a remission program in place. The federal government is attempting to move into this area to some extent.

They recently announced some modifications to their side of the student finance program by tinkering with assistance for temporary students, tink­ ering with the interest on students who have been unem­ ployed beyond the six-month period. More importantly, they're recognizing their responsibility to some extent by increasing the number of loans which are available to students in the province of Alberta.

In any event, with the support of my colleagues in caucus, we had to increase the amount of assistance going to students by roughly $10 million this past year — and that was a very substantial amount — largely as a func­ tion of increased enrolment. Mr. Chairman, we will con­ tinue to meet that, should student enrolment demand increase for the fall. In a nutshell, there you have some of the things which are under way in our province in the Department of Advanced Education. I will be more than pleased to entertain discussion on any of the concepts, in terms of public policy debate.

But more specifically, should there be some narrower questions, I will attempt to answer those, given the limits of my ability and the limits of the information before me. MR. PURDY: Mr. Chairman, I just want to make a few comments, then I have a couple of questions for the Minister of Advanced Education. It's just about two years since the former Minister of Advanced Education and Manpower announced that the third technical school for the province of Alberta would be built in the town of Stony Plain. That is now going along quite well, and we anticipate the first 400 students this fall.

However, I have some concerns, and I'm sure the board of governors at the school shares the same concerns. The agreement between NA1T and Westerra is not going too well. I want to know if the minister is going to have to finally inter­ vene, saying to NA1T that these are the programs that should be offered at the new technical institute located in Stony Plain. Or is the minister going to allow the two sides to come to some agreement, but maybe too late to enhance the programs that should be allowed in the new institution?

The last question I have for the minister: is any consid­ eration being given to a change in legislation, whereby if colleges, universities, and technical schools are located in a particular town or city in the province of Alberta, the municipalities don't receive any grants in lieu of taxes? I think this could cause a burden on the town of Stony Plain. It's correct that Public Works, Supply and Services is supplying some of the infrastructure. But once that's in and the maintenance has to be done on it, that's going to be the responsibility of the town.

The roads that are going to have to be built will also be the responsibility of the town. I was not shocked but taken aback, I guess, when I found out that legislation is in place that does not allow any grants in lieu of taxes for any of the institutions located in the various areas of the province. Mr. Chairman, just to capsule my two questions for the minister: will he intervene between the two boards of governors of NA1T and Westerra and, secondly, is there any look at changing the grant structure so that grants will be made available to the municipality where the insti­ tution is located? MR.

CHAIRMAN: Did the minister wish to answer questions as they come, or how does he wish to handle it? MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, I'm open to your advice. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member for Edmonton Norwood. MR. MARTIN: Mr. Chairman, before I was in the Legis­ lature, part of my role was as a counsellor in high school. I saw this problem firsthand, dealing with students. As the hon. minister already alluded, we see a lot of students going into postsecondary institutions.

In the se­ cond semester at the high-school level, we were seeing a number of 18- and 19-year-olds returning to high school because they could not get jobs, with the idea of proceed­ ing to postsecondary institutions — either SAIT, the university, or Grant MacEwan college, specifically in this area. Mr. Chairman, I suggest to the hon. minister that the situation will probably get worse in the next year. If we look back, in terms of unemployment, it was approx­ imately 60,000 when these students were starting to come back into the institutions. As the hon. minister knows, it will be double that.

I suggest that it will be an even more serious problem. As far as the institutions go, they can only take so many people. For example, at NA1T we're seeing num­ bers applying for certain faculties where they used to take most of them. Now there'll be 100 applying for 20 posi­ tions; in some cases, 400 applying for 100 positions. I don't think this is uncommon throughout the province.

392 ALBERTA HANSARD April 6, 1983 The minister would probably be much more aware of this than I, but certainly I know it's true in the institutions here in Alberta. For instance, it's even worse in the limited enrolment faculties in universities. To get into the faculty of business last year, you had to have approxi­ mately an 80 average, or there's no use even looking at it. I guess my point is that the government has chosen not to move too much in terms of job creation, and we probably have a 30 to 35 per cent unemployment rate. We know the institutions are going to be packed.

We know there'll be more students applying and not getting into them. I suggest we're going to have a serious social problem at some particular time. The other problem I see, in terms of advanced educa­ tion in the future, is that because more and more students want to continue and are not getting jobs, it becomes a serious financial problem for some students. I suggest that in the future the hon. minister might look at the whole way we're giving money to students. I know about the heritage trust fund for the very good students. A number of our students at the school I was at used it; it was positive.

But there are a number of relative ly good students, say, from 60 right up to the 80 level, that are having some difficulty. In talking to parents, generally middle-income people, at Salisbury high school in Sherwood Park, where I was, it was becoming increas­ ingly difficult to send their students on to higher educa­ tion. I think we're going to have to look again at how we are giving grants, and I'll have a few specific questions about that. The point that people get back to is the free lunch.

I suggest to the hon. minister that eventually the people who go on to higher education, even if they don't pay their way to begin with — and we know they don't; it costs a lot of money for advanced education. Hopefully you get that money back because you're creating higher income people. They pay it back in terms of taxes later on. If we look at it that way, I think we'll realize we're not giving them a free lunch, because later on we expect them to pay their way, to provide necessary services in Alberta in the future. We should take a look at that particular problem.

The other aspect of this is that as a high school counsellor, I found there are a growing number of stu­ dents — we can talk about the breakdown of the family and all the rest of it — who really didn't have access to parents' finances. They were out on their own at 18. I think if you look at the grants, at least up to 21 or 22, the parents are supposed to contribute. I have no problem with that if they can afford it, but I think we have to be concerned that there are a number of students who cannot use their parents' finances. In terms of the grants, the parents are expected to contribute.

I'm suggesting, what happens to that student if the parents refuse to do so? What we have to look at in higher education — and I know the minister would agree — is that we want people there who have the ability. It shouldn't be how much money your parents have. I think we have to look very seriously at this problem. There's no easy answer here; it ties into the whole economy. I appreciate the problem the minister has, but I think next year we're going to have serious problems. I'll use one faculty I'm sure he's aware of at the U of A; that is, computer science.

Two years ago they had students at three o'clock in the morning, because that was the only time they could get on. Of course now there's an empha­ sis toward computer education. When you're talking to students, you see more and more of them wanting to go into computers. They see it, quite rightfully, as the way of the future, that they should have some knowledge here. But the institutions just aren't able to keep up with the demand. Perhaps more money is going to have to go into this area. [Mr. Purdy in the Chair] I realize that we are in some difficulty in finances in the province at this particular time.

Our hon. Treasurer has made that rather clear to us. But I say in all honesty, the young people are sort of between a rock and a hard place. While there is a modest increase in terms of money going to institutions, I think the hon. minister would agree that at best it is going to just maintain the level that we have now. With the growing number of young people out there who can't find jobs, who can't maybe afford to go — and I've already alluded to that — but the institutions just don't have the spaces, I think we are going to have serious problems in the next two to five years.

I think there are areas where we can cut back — and we'll be talking about that throughout all the estimates — but I'm not sure that Advanced Education is the place. We may have to spend more money because if we're going to get out of a lot of the problems that we have in the province, in the country, and in the world, the best resource we have is a well-educated mind. Technology is moving very fast, as we well know, and I know society is not keeping up to technology. I hope we will take another look at this very serious social problem; I realize it's not going to happen in this budget. From that

preamble, I'd just like to put some specific questions to the minister. I'll go into the estimates, basi­ cally financial assistance to students, and ask three ques­ tions to begin with. Why is there an overall decrease in this vote of 17.9 per cent? Two, given that 40 per cent of the U of A students presently receive loans, and 50 per cent of the students are estimated for next year, why wasn't the money to the Students Finance Board in­ creased, because of the problems I've talked about?

Third, I believe the Minister of Manpower predicted 20 per cent unemployment among students this summer, and there were only a limited number of STEP positions that he talked about in the Assembly. What measures are there to make loans more available to the students? If, as I suspect — and I think the minister would agree — the problem is even more serious, are there contingency plans for grants and loans to students? I'll stop at that moment, Mr. Chairman. MR. GOGO: Mr. Chairman, first of all I'd like to congratulate the minister on the assumption of this new portfolio.

After watching the Member for Medicine Hat in that portfolio for some four years and all the things that happened, I can't help but wonder what can be done now in Advanced Education that hasn't already been done. But listening to the Member for Norwood, obvious­ ly there are a lot of things that, in his view, could or should be done. First of all. Mr. Chairman, looking at some $818 mil­ lion in Advanced Education, one must appreciate that Alberta is second to none in the nation in terms of per capita funding of higher education.

Secondly, the very fact that there's an 8 per cent increase this year, compared to the school boards at 5 per cent, represents a preference and a priority of the government of Alberta, recognizing the dramatic increase in enrolments in our institutions. I would agree with the minister and would like to compli­

April 6, 1983 ALBERTA HANSARD 393 ment those who sit on our boards of universities and colleges. We in government owe them a tremendous debt of gratitude for the many hours and the many meetings they attend in the best interests of their constituencies, namely the student bodies throughout the province. At the University of Lethbridge, which is in the riding of Lethbridge West, we have a new chancellor, Mr. Bill Russell. I believe he is the fifth. Again, I think that selecting such excellent people to assist in furthering the goals of the University of Lethbridge, epitomizes the views of the senate of the U of L.

Mr. Chairman, I have some general questions that I'd like to pose to the minister. They cover all three votes, as the Member for Edmonton Norwood did. First of all, I wonder if the minister could advise the committee as to how the $100 million Heritage Savings Trust Fund matching grant program is going. Has it been picked up in anticipation of the comments made by the previous minister a year ago? Secondly, under vote 2.6.1, the serv­ ice element, I note a dramatic change from some two hundred odd thousand to $7 million. I wonder if the minister would comment on that when he's responding.

When I look at the increases in operating the universi­ ties, I can't help but notice some 7 per cent increase. Yet the University of Lethbridge, that fledgling university, that undergraduate liberal arts institution that is turning out such successful people, is restricted to 3 per cent. I can't help but be puzzled. As we know we're so far south that we almost have to have 10 per cent to even attract any attention this far north. I wonder if the minister could . . . [interjections] Well, they say that south of Nanton we use American money.

That might give an indication to the Minister responsible for Workers' Health, Safety and Compensation. Seriously though, the 3 per cent does seem to be somewhat less than what the needs would be, recognizing the dramatic increase in enrolment at the university. Secondly, Mr. Chairman, I'd like to ask the minister what provision there is, if any, for such things as deficits. We see that awards to TransAlta Utilities and others are over 17 per cent.

It would appear to me that the Universi­ ty of Lethbridge's utilities cost side — through natural gas, water, and electrical energy — could well exceed the three per cent, in view of the Electric Energy Marketing Act. What impact may that have on institutional costs? Finally, Mr. Chairman, with regard to the University of Lethbridge, I've had a great deal of representation, as I'm sure the minister has as MLA for Lethbridge East, with regard to the bachelor of social work program we've been trying to get off the ground for several years.

We have some 17 or 20 young people in the Lethbridge area having to go to the University of Calgary. The former Minister of Advanced Education made very substantial grants to the University of Calgary so they would transfer this program to the U of L, and it never did happen. Why, I don't know. We all know the altruistic tendencies of the U of C; they're quite prepared to recognize that other people can also carry out functions. Seriously, Mr. Chairman, we have some 17 or 20 people who, for a variety of reasons, just cannot commute to or live in Calgary and take that program.

So I'm again making representation to the Minister of Advanced Education for that bachelor of social work program which I, along with other people, thought had been put in place. When one looks at the increase in enrolment at the U of L — and I guess it's been said many times that young people who cannot find work return to education. They offer a great program in teacher training at the U of L. They've long said — at least I've heard it in this Assem­ bly, I think from the members from Vermilion and Barrhead, and other members — that those who can, do; those who can't, teach.

Well, we recognize that we're turning out a very high number of teachers through the University of Lethbridge, and at the same time the school boards, through the province, are laying people off. I wonder, Mr. Chairman, if the minister would comment with regard to that program at the U of L. Turning to the Lethbridge Community College, which is in the riding of Lethbridge East but which I have some knowledge of, I see that last year it had a quarter of a million dollar deficit. I'm kind of puzzled as to how these are handled with regard to the department.

As you know, our hospitals have not been able to handle them in the past. I wonder how our public colleges handle them? I would point out to the minister, Mr. Chairman, that we've seen a very dramatic increase in the full-time enrolment of students at the college in Lethbridge, from some 1,600 in '78 to some 2,150 today. That's just in the year '81-82. Recognizing the economic situation of today, one would expect some rather dramatic increase. I conclude on this note, Mr. Chairman.

First of all, I'm impressed with the priority the government of Alberta has allocated to the Department of Advanced Education, some $818 million, which indicates to me that this gov­ ernment treats advanced education or certainly senior education as very important. Secondly, recognizing the tremendous increase in enrolments at our secondary insti­ tutions, there clearly has to be some degree of preference given in terms of funding or these people are just not going to be able to cope, I guess.

The final comment I would make: I'm very proud to represent a riding that has a university that does well in terms of assistance to its students by increasing the facul­ ty to a reasonable level. Also I think history will teach us that the decentralization policy of government — having institutions throughout the province instead of just one in the capital city — has been very beneficial. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. MR. HIEBERT: Mr. Chairman, I too would like to make a few remarks and ask some questions pertaining to some institutions in the Edmonton area.

I would like to compliment the past Minister of Advanced Education. Certainly we went through an unparalleled four years in terms of board governance, capital projects, the Heritage Scholarship Fund, the endowment fund, just to mention a few. Certainly it was a good four years, and hopefully the new office for the hon. Member for Lethbridge East will afford him the opportunity to make another impact in the next four years. My question or concern relates to the Westerra Insti­ tute as well. It was mentioned by the Member for Stony Plain with regard to the transfer of programs.

With the downturn in the economy and an anticipated decrease in population growth, I want to know whether there's been an adjustment or modification in the staging of the proj­ ect in Stony Plain. Is there any reconsideration as to how fast various programs will be brought on stream? I know there's been considerable debate with regard to program transfers from NAIT to Westerra, and some of it revolves around the medical arts program. I'm aware that the Minister's Advisory Committee on Technical and Vocational Education has made recommendations per­ taining to this issue.

I hope that those particular recom­ mendations are considered seriously. I know that NAIT and the board of governors feel strongly about retaining

394 ALBERTA HANSARD April 6, 1983 the program. It's a well-established program; it has very high enrolments. It is my view that removal of this program from NA1T would be a regressive move. Wester­ ra is a new institution. It has an opportunity to be innovative, develop new programs, and possibly take on programs where there is a high enrolment and lack of facility presently at NAIT. So I would be concerned about the finalization of the program shifts. The Member for Stony Plain mentioned something about the minister intervening.

I hope the minister would consider that the boards of governors are to some degree autonomous in their working relationship with the insti­ tute. If there is going to be any intervention on the part of the minister, I hope that representation could also be made by members in the Edmonton area. The second area I'd like to touch upon is Grant MacEwan. I was aware that they had some plans on the drawing board for a campus in the northeast area. I would like to know if the department has received sub­ missions from Grant MacEwan on the Clareview campus, if I'm not mistaken?

Has there been any response from the department to the board of governors of Grant MacEwan? The last area pertains to the proposal, which I think is supported by the Construction Association, regarding a construction engineering division or program within the Faculty of Engineering. There's a feeling that the ap­ proaches and techniques that are used in modern day construction have far outstripped some of the traditional divisions in the Faculty of Engineering, and a proposal has come forth with regard to considering developing a new program. I recognize that the University of Alberta is autonomous, Mr.

Chairman, and they are responsible for new program development. However, it would be of in­ terest to know the department's involvement with respect to this request and what would be entailed in terms of dollars if such a program were considered. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. DR. BUCK: Mr. Chairman, I'd just like to make one or two comments to the hon. minister. First of all, I'd like to say, as a basic philosophy, the hon. Member for Little Bow and myself believe it's the right of qualified students in this province to be able to attend universities.

It's quite interesting to see, as has been mentioned before, that when we're in a time of economic downturn and many students have the opportunity to go back to school, the opportunity is not available to them. We see quota systems in so many faculties in our universities that it is quite appalling. We also see that we have an overall increase in budgeting of only a little over 5 per cent and enrolment has increased so drastically that I'm sure the universities have been trying to struggle valiantly with their budgets.

It's going to be interesting to see just how much more they can cut down on an already quite thin budget. It's also quite appalling to see that we've had a decrease of about 18 per cent in financial assistance to students. I would just like to give the minister a little food for thought to really find out if this government is serious about showing some restraint. The Treasurer stands up there in his fine, three-piece gray flannel suit on budget night, or navy blue suit. AN HON. MEMBER: It was rented. DR. BUCK: Rented, the minister of education says.

Talking about restraint, we're putting restraint on edu­ cation in this province, and I think this government seems to have the wrong priorities. When they put the limiting on student financing, that is certainly a retrogressive priority. Mr. Chairman, I still cannot understand, when we are talking about restraint, why we are physically moving an already viable Athabasca University from the city of Edmonton to Athabasca. We are looking at capi­ tal expenditures in the area of $20 million. MR. MARTIN: Politics. DR. BUCK: But the thing is they don't have to practise politics.

The people in this province flock to the polls and support them anyway. They didn't have to do any pork- barrelling in Athabasca. They didn't have to do any pork-barrelling in Barrhead. Responsible government should be doing responsible things, not just because it may give them some advantage in an election. This afternoon when the Minister of Transportation stood up and tried to justify this little task force on how they are going to sell PWA, that is nothing but a knee-jerk reaction to the separatists. That's all it is, a little pat for the separatists.

They were talking about selling PWA, so the government thought they'd better rush in before the election and go through the motions of selling PWA. [interjections] Back to the topic, Mr.Chairman. I am concerned about the fact that the University of Alberta especially has had an increase of 25 per cent in their Faculty of Arts, an increased enrolment of 20 per cent in their Faculty of Science. Education is up about 10.5, and the University of Alberta seems to be rapidly approaching the top number of students that it can handle. I'm sure this is a great concern to them.

There has been an increase of approximately 2,200 students in all faculties at the Uni­ versity of Alberta. It is causing them some real problems. Our colleges as a whole are operating at near capacity, and our technical institutions — and I laud the govern­ ment on the fact that they are building the institution in Stony Plain. That is a very positive move. Someday in the near future, we hope we will be getting some of our energy projects back on the go track, and we will certainly be needing people from these institutions. We'll be needing them desperately.

It reminds me of the story of a very prominent friend of mine who is the manager of a fairly substantial chemical plant and an engineer by profession. He said: if my son asked me what he should do, I would advise him to go into one of the trades rather than one of the professions. The Social Credit government did seem to have some foresight when they established NAIT and SAIT. I'm glad to see that the present government is at least following in the footsteps of the forward-looking previous government. So they can't be all bad, I guess.

I would also like to indicate to the minister that there are going to be some problems in some of the faculties where the supply is outstripping the demand. I know that for many years we argued in this Assembly about estab­ lishing a faculty of law at the University of Calgary. Anyone who is in a profession is always accused of trying to keep other people out of professions. I don't think that is a valid argument. Right now the physical plants are limited in their size.

But it doesn't take students very long to figure out that maybe you shouldn't be going into law, dentistry, or education because once you graduate, there's nothing for you to do or it's very difficult for you to do. I just bring to the attention of members of the commit­ tee a study being done now by the Canadian Dental Association so they can be in a position to make some

April 6, 1983 ALBERTA HANSARD 395 recommendations to governments at the provincial level as to what they see about manpower needs and supply. The first people to get flak when we have an overabun­ dance in these very expensive faculties are the politicians. People say, why did you not foresee this? So the minister should be doing some liaison, especially with heads of these overcrowded professional faculties, about the near- and long-term supply and demand in some of these faculties. I'm sure the minister, being a professional person himself, knows of what I speak.

But it takes quite a few years to get a turnaround. You can't suddenly say to the dean of law, we want you to cut back 20 per cent this year. They still want the same amount of money, and they still have the same number of instruc­ tors. So they can't adjust immediately. I'm just using law as an example. They can't suddenly turf out 20 per cent of their students and staff. It just doesn't work that quickly. You have to have some long-term planning. I would also like the minister to indicate to us what the state of the nursing profession is now.

Can the minister indicate to us if supply and demand are in a fairly balanced situation? It's quite amazing how things can change so rapidly. Just a few years ago we were short of nurses, then all of a sudden we're caught up. Who gets blamed? The government gets blamed. If it's bad, the government gets blamed; if it's good, you forget about it. That seems to be the way it works. AN HON. MEMBER: If it's good, the opposition takes credit for it. DR. BUCK: That's right. Of course when opposition presents something, smart governments take it and im­ plement it.

That's the way the game goes; I guess that's what the role of government is. These are some of the questions I'd like the minister to address himself to. I'll be covering some of the other areas when we go into the clause-by-clause parts of the estimates. I would just like to close, Mr. Chairman, and indicate my concerns to the minister that it is going to be very difficult — and I know it's always difficult when you are trying to draw up a budget — for the universities, post- secondary educational groups, to look at increased en­ rolment and basically a cutback in budget.

Maybe a bril­ liant accountant like the Minister of Advanced Education could do that, but the people responsible for budgeting in postsecondary education are going to have a very difficult time. In speaking to some of the people across the river at the university, it is a real fact of life; it's going to be difficult for them. Those are just the few comments I'd like to make at this time. I'd like to bring one other point to the attention of the minister.

There was representation made to members of the Assembly in the fall of '82 when the Alberta Con­ struction Association made a recommendation that uni­ versities look at establishing a specific program for a construction engineering degree. I am sure the minister has received the same representation that we have, so I would like him to give that his consideration. I would also like to know from the minister the status of the lobbying that's always done by the optometric profession as to the establishment of an optometric school.

It has been brought to the attention of the former minister and ministers before that. Those are some of the basic concerns that I would like the minister to touch on. Some of the other areas I will cover in the other part of the estimates. MR. JONSON: Mr. Chairman, I would like to start out by commending the minister for many of the advances made in this budget, particularly in the area of trades and technical training. But I have a couple of concerns specif­ ic to institutions in central Alberta and also one general comment. First of all, I would like to mention a few things pertaining to Olds College.

I realize that Olds, along with Fairview and Lakeland, was established initially with its focus on agriculture. Olds still retains agriculture as its primary focus, although it has a major further education program and a number of other ongoing programs. My concern with respect to Olds, with due consideration, is that in quality and modernization, the physical facilities at Olds College have dropped behind various other insti­ tutions in the province where such remarkable improve­ ments have been made.

Olds College is a very important educational institution in central Alberta with respect to the farming industry. It complements very nicely the bachelor of agriculture programs offered at our universi­ ties and in some ways has equal or higher prestige than the universities when it comes to offering practical train­ ing which can be directly transferred to the actual prac­ tice of agriculture. The Department of Agriculture, through its new farm­ ers loan program and and a number of other efforts, has helped in increasing and supporting the number of new farmers in the province.

There is an increasing need for the back-up educational services of Olds College. I am sure that would be true of Lakeland and Fairview as well. I think there is a need to look at the priority given to building at Olds College with respect to the agricultural facilities there and specifically to the research component which used to be a major effort as far as Olds College is concerned.

With all the difficulties that agriculture is facing right now with glutted world markets, declining prices, and increased costs, I think any effort the govern­ ment can make to help in the training of young farmers and the provision of applied research to aid in farming is something that should be pursued. My specific question with respect to Olds College is, first of all, what is specifically planned this year with respect to a building program at Olds College? I note it was mentioned in the Budget Address, and I think that has to be pursued. What is the long-term planning pro­ gram as far as Olds College?

I hope that there is a plan in place which will allow Olds College to catch up to the standard of facilities that you have at places like Wester­ ra, NAIT, and so forth, with respect to the programs that they're offering. A second area that I'd like to pose a question on pertains to the school of psychiatric nursing at Alberta Hospital, Ponoka.

There have been a number of propos­ als put forward recommending or suggesting that the school of nursing be transferred from the auspices of, I guess it was Social Services originally and is now Hospi­ tals and Medical Care, to its rightful place which should be the ministry of Advanced Education. Are there any specific plans in place to bring about that transfer? I think it would add to the prestige of the school of nursing and certainly put the school of nursing in the department where, by its function, it should be. My third and final comment is a general one, Mr. Chairman.

It relates to several of the previous remarks but is with respect to the need for information about the occupational needs of the province. It is specifically relat­ ed to teaching. Right now we have a large number of young people returning to the various programs of sec­

396 ALBERTA HANSARD April 6, 1983 ondary education, teacher education being one of them. I feel that a greater effort should be made to publicize to the schools the various surpluses and shortages in the field of teaching, so they can take the information and run with it, so to speak. I find that we're still educating a surplus of English, social studies, and phys. ed. teachers, although the supply is quite adequate.

Added to the usual shortages of second language and vocational teachers in some specific areas, albeit that's been improving, you now have a rather critical shortage in the areas of secondary mathematics and science. I feel that there should be a better link between the school system and Advanced Education with respect to providing that sort of informa­ tion so that students can be adequately given career guidance.

Also related to teacher education, I wonder what pro­ visions are in the budget this year — perhaps this should go with the Department of Education, but it would seem it should be in Advanced Education — with respect to the funding of the extended practicum. I think this is one of the best practical advances in teacher education over the past number of years, and I hope this is going to be adequately funded for the year ahead. Thank you. MR. NELSON: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to, I guess, direct some questions to the minister rather than to his pro­ gram.

I have not gone through this process before, and I hope I'm not going out of bounds. On some of these specific projections, firstly, in the area of supplies and services — and maybe I don't understand what that term is exactly — could the minister indicate why the amount of money has decreased from 1982-83, when enrolment of students is apparently increasing at quite a large rate? Does this mean that we've had considerable waste in the past and we're becoming more efficient in our operation?

The other question is: considering the fact that there is a decrease in what I read here of permanent full-time or man-year authorization of positions, why is there such an increase in the purchase of fixed assets, assuming that's furnishings and the like? Also, considering there are a number of offices within the government that are being eliminated or otherwise through attrition, et cetera, why can't these fixed assets be moved around a little bit to save us some money rather than purchasing what I assume is new? The minister can correct me if I'm wrong, Mr. Chairman.

I'd also like to ask if the Advanced Education Department is going to co-operate with the Minister of Manpower in the apprenticeship courses in 1983-84. I would like to comment and ask a couple of questions relevant to the area of assistance to higher and further educational institutions. In general it seems that some advancement has been made as far as funding is con­ cerned in these programs. The area I'm having some diffi­ culty with is why the support for private colleges is down 7.2 per cent.

Also, is any thought being given for the future for the development of a college similar to that in Mount Royal in the north end of the city of Calgary? Mr. Chairman, those are the only remarks and ques­ tions I have. I'll anticipate an answer from the minister and possible supplementaries at that time if I may. MR. WEISS: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to address a few remarks, not to any specific vote but some general comments. I'd like to extend congratulations as well to the minister's predecessor. I appreciate all the help that's taken place in the Lac La Biche-McMurray constituency.

I guess I'm one of those few representatives who won't have that much to complain about, just some general comments and remarks on some of the programs. I look forward to working with the minister and his responsibili­ ty. I'm sure that if he brings the enthusiasm that he has in the past, we'll continue with that relationship that existed and see some of our programs come to fruition.

I'm particularly concerned that in the northern regions, not just Lac La Biche-McMurray, the increased enrol­ ment at this time with the downtrend in the economy is going to create not only some problems but some finan­ cial hardships. I would ask the minister to review the overall funding mechanism for future years as well. Re­ cently I heard the representative for Lethbridge West refer to costs in the south. I would point out to the minister, Mr.

Chairman, that the cost in relation to the north — in particular some of the accommodation costs, daily living, fuel, and food — are certainly varied in relation to what they may be in the south. I'm very pleased to see such programs as our nursing program in Keyano. Funding is now under way and the program will take place. This year there are some 53 applicants, I understand, applying for positions to take the program. I'm hopeful, though, that the minister can assure me that upon completion we'll be able to place those students.

Hopefully we'll see some of them stay in the north within our own communities, in particular the Lac La Biche-McMurray region. But as the hon. Member for Clover Bar recently indicated, he has some concerns about the overall nursing status as well. I'd certainly commend them on the student bursary program, and look to see that program expanded. In particular, I'd like to see the program have some individ­ ual merit in relation to the area the person is coming from. I speak for the north in particular.

I would like to see the funds on a working relationship that would give consideration to staying in the north upon completion of the program and help in completion as well as the overall funding, perhaps an expansion of that program that's in existence. I would also encourage the minister to look to the transfer programs from our particular regions so there would be that continuity of moving around in what we call a transient population today, specifically into the south and northern regions and the SAITs, NAITs, and the new facility under way at this point. I'm very pleased, Mr.

Chairman, to have recently offi­ ciated on behalf of the minister on what I would have termed a snow-turning ceremony, but in view of the inclement weather, it was a sod-turning ceremony. We were pleased to officiate in the $18.5 million first phase of the campus facility for the Alberta Vocational Centre in Lac La Biche, along with the student residence that's under way. I certainly encourage the minister that hope­ fully over the summer, when he has time and we're not in this session, I'll have the opportunity to accompany him on a tour of the facility. I think he'll be very pleased with what is happening.

The community accept it with a great deal of enthusiasm. I am sure that he shares in that as well. One particular facet of that — I might ask the minis­ ter's indulgence and perhaps assistance in review within the department — is the endowment fund. We have a very ambitious program that we would hope to get under way in the community of Lac La Biche: a community swimming pool that would be a joint development with the proposed new campus facility. In all probability it would look to somewhere in the $1 million range, with the community and college taking on half of that, which

April 6, 1983 ALBERTA HANSARD 397 is the overall program. I wonder if there's any way that interim assistance could be given so that a program such as this could be implemented now. When I say "now", Mr. Chairman, I think of what we talk about in unemployment, the lack of construction. In a community such as that we'd be able to go out and, I'm sure, obtain a bigger bang for our buck — better tender prices, construction costs, keep people employed, and go ahead with the project at this time certainly with a commitment on behalf of the community that the 50 per cent funding would be undertaken.

But while the overall facility is being constructed, we'd be able to proceed and, at the same time, save dollars for both the community and the government. I think that's what we're all here for: to try to govern wisely and, at the same time, continue delivering services and goods to the people as required. So perhaps they could review that. I would also encourage the minister and his department to consider in the forthcoming years the establishment of a board of governors for the Alberta vocational centres, such as we recently saw take place with Keyano and others. At this time, Mr.

Chairman, I would certainly thank those who serve on these committees. They work very hard and diligently, and I'm very pleased with the representation we have in all the areas. In particular, we have some changes forthcoming in the board of gover­ nors of Keyano College. These people govern it wisely. We have some very ambitious programs, such as the programs taking place. With Keyano, we're hoping to come on with a $50 million program which will better education facilities within the overall community.

I would certainly hope that the increased enrolment is to the benefit of all and that people are not just going back for the sake of filling in time. I've had a very interesting conversation with some people and particularly find that, while the facilities are in the north, it's not strictly stipulated that only northerners should attend. It's interesting to find that we have stu­ dents attending Keyano College and Lac La Biche from as far away as Medicine Hat, Lethbridge, and other areas. So it's very encouraging.

When I talked earlier about costs, this was brought up with me in particular by persons enroling from some of the southern areas. They say they're very shocked to find that the cost factors are that much varied and different in the northern areas. As I have said, the remarks are really more gratifying, Mr. Chairman. I'm very pleased, though, to think that we as a government, and particularly through the minister, recognize the overall need and the increased expansion in facilities in both the Keyano and Lac La Biche areas. We certainly look forward to some great years ahead and some good programs.

Also, as I said earlier, I look forward to having the opportunity to accompany the minister on a tour of the facilities. I'm sure he will be pleased. MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, I'm pleased to be able to make a few comments with regard to Lakeland College, which serves eastern Alberta. The important part about Lakeland College is that it doesn't serve just one commu­ nity, but many communities. It serves Vermilion, Vegre- ville, Wainwright, Lloydminster, St. Paul, and Bonny- ville, and over the last few years there's been a tremen­ dous increase in the number of students utilizing the services.

I would like to make representation, particularly on behalf of the people in the Lloydminster constituency, of the need for some permanent buildings, so they will be able to take their classes right in the city of Lloydminster without having to go to other centres. I know that the minister is giving strong consideration to this aspect, since it is regarded as an interprovincial college. We're not asking for a swimming pool or anything fancy like that, Mr. Minister. All we want is buildings so we'll be able to have classes to satisfy the needs of our students.

We hope you will be able to supply planning money this year, since a site has been identified. There is an urban park being developed, and it's very important that the planning of the Lakeland College campus in Lloyd­ minster be done in co-operation with the urban park planning so they'll be able to utilize many of the services common to both. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. COOK: Mr. Chairman, I want to make a few brief comments and ask the minister some general policy ques­ tions.

First of all, I wonder if the minister could offer a statement on goals for universities in Alberta: where we are going; what we are trying to accomplish? In particu­ lar, Mr. Chairman, I am interested in the question of quality education versus quantity. Are we simply trying to provide mass education for large numbers of kids coming out of high schools, or are we also trying to develop world-class institutions that might be on a par with something like Northwestern or Indiana? Are we simply trying to run mass institutions that shove kids through and give a piece of paper at the end of four years?

Secondly, what is the role of the research function in the universities? How can we try to make our institu­ tions less oriented simply to being teaching institutions, and also orient them a little more toward research and scholarship on a national and international level? Mr. Chairman, I'd like to congratulate the minister for arranging to have increases in grants available for the increased enrolments we're experiencing. That was a very solid move, and I think the minister deserves the congrat­ ulation of the Assembly for fighting for that money through the priorities committee.

Although there were lots of other competing demands, that's a very important move and I congratulate him for it. I'd like the minister to comment on enrolments. We had some discussion from the hon. Member for Clover Bar about the size of institutions. I've been at some universities in the United States with enrolments as large as 150,000. Wisconsin or Michigan comes to mind. I'm not suggesting for a moment that we necessarily need to go to that size. But I think there are benefits in having a large enrolment, because you get a critical mass, if you like.

You can attract top students and top scholars at a large institution, and they can interact with one another. Instead of of having small enrolments, maybe we should look at having the University of Alberta bump up its enrolment to the 30,000 or 40,000 range, and look upon that as a desirable thing. Finally, I'd like to express a concern. Last night I met some high school students at a delegate selection meeting in Edmonton North, and one of their concerns was that there are enrolment quotas at colleges and technical schools for some of the programs like computing or design engineering technologies.

They were expressing a concern that, given the very bad job market, this is the time when they should be going to the colleges or univer­ sities and upgrading their job skills for when the economy turns around. It seems a little difficult to rationalize how we could not try to arrange that they get into those kinds of programs that they will be able to use in two or three

398 ALBERTA HANSARD April 6, 1983 years. Right now they're between a rock and a hard place. They don't have a job, can't get a job, and can't get the job skills that they'd like to offer the economy a little later. Thank you. MR. STILES: Mr. Chairman, I'd simply like to address some of the concerns Olds College has with regard to capital funding and expansion. Olds College is the senior college in Alberta teaching agriculture, teaching young people in the farming industry and related industries.

Beginning in 1913, the college was developed as an agri­ cultural college on the site of the demonstration farm that was set up in 1911. At one time there were five agricul­ tural schools in the province. That number has been reduced to three. And at the present time, of the three agricultural colleges, the two at Fairview and Vermilion blend their agricultural mandate with regional trades and technology training.

Olds College is therefore left as the only college in Alberta with a primary mission to provide education, training, and service in agriculture and other non-urban, land-based, renewable resource activities. In the last six years an average amount of $20.9 million has been spent on capital funding at public colleges across Alberta. In the last six years $6 million, a slight amount over $1 million per year, has been spent for capital projects at Olds College. I think it's pretty clear that this particular college has been left behind.

It's important that we have an understanding of the impor­ tance of agricultural education and, in particular, of the importance of agriculture in this province. It's so often misunderstood. In terms of dealing with the Alberta economy, our own budget estimates are misleading in assigning a very low percentage to the agricultural sector. In fact in Alberta, agriculture is responsible for close to 50 per cent of the jobs in this province. Obviously that doesn't mean to say that 50 per cent of the population is engaged in farming.

But it certainly means that many businesses that are categorized in some other way — manufacturing, retail­ ing, and so on — actually deal with agricultural products. If you track down the number of businesses in Alberta that are related to agriculture, the number is most im­ pressive. Fifty per cent is an accurate figure, and I think it deserves some significance in our dealings with institu­ tions such as the agricultural colleges, particularly the college at Olds.

Olds College is a hands-on teaching institution and, as a result of that, has developed a farmstead in order to take the young people who are learning their trade in agriculture into the actual operation of a farm and teach them at the basic level. In order to do that, it's essential that the farm facilities and the equipment that is being used is at least equal to current methods and facilities being employed by the farm community. It is ridiculous to have students learning in an environment that is anti­ quated, or at least not up to par with that of their parents.

Due to some degree of overbuilding in the 1960s, the college was perceived to not require further capital devel­ opment. As they've been astute in using the facilities they have from the '60s, in sharing classroom space and in carving up the classroom space to accommodate more students, they've been able to get by. But that has come to an end. There's no longer a possibility for that college to get by with the facilities they have and continue to have increasing enrolment.

I'm aware that the minister knows about this, and we've been working on it, but I want to emphasize that the board of governors has developed a phased program for Olds College to develop, to bring not only the farms­ tead facilities but also the instructional, the administra­ tive, the student housing, and the other facilities up to a standard in a way that is most cost effective. A fairly large budget has been developed by the college board for this program.

My concern now is that we and the department and the minister recognize the need for this development, and that we will be going forward with a phased program of capital expansion at the college. I believe the importance of some recent developments is behind my remarks today. One of the major industrial players in the agricultural game recently offered to pro­ vide a substantial feed-handling and waste-handling facil­ ity to the college.

In addition to that, they're also pre­ pared to move into the area of developing the production of methane fuels, and perhaps ethyl alcohol, from agricul­ tural products and developing these facilities at the col­ lege in order that this area may be pursued. But of course their concern is that before they make that kind of investment, the agricultural college at Olds is going to continue to be the primary agricultural educational insti­ tution in this province.

A further development, a very recent development, is that in 1986 the world plowing match will be held at Olds, which will be the first time in the history of the world plowing competitions that the matches will be held in western Canada. They've previously been held in On­ tario on a couple of occasions. This is the first time they'll been held in western Canada, and it's an opportunity for us to put on a show in agriculture for the rest of the world. In fact Olds College, as the location of these world plowing matches, will be a mirror image of agriculture in Alberta in 1986.

It's expected that something in the order of 10,000 people per day will be attending the contests; that's the average that's been experienced in the world plowing contests previously held in Canada. I would like to offer my congratulations to the minister for the attention and understanding he has shown to the college and the way in which we have been able to deal with the problems there so far. In particular, I'd like to extend my congratulations also to the previous Minister of Advanced Education for his understanding and co­ operation in working with the college towards dealing with their problems.

Unfortunately we are in a time of constraint, and obviously that has to have an effect on the kinds of programs adopted. On the other hand, in a period of constraint or restraint, it's still important that we keep moving forward in terms of education and training. In particular, in an industry that is so key to the Alberta economy as agriculture, we are not going to maintain our position if we do not have an educational institution that is also up there at the leading edge. I know that the minister is aware of the problems.

I would be interested in hearing if the minister is now prepared to deal with the problems of the college on a phased basis so that the facilities can be upgraded, not only in the area of the farmstead but of course in institu­ tional areas and in student housing, student activity areas, and administrative areas as well, because all these areas have fallen behind in their capacity. Basically we hope and would like to have confirmation that this premier college in the field of agricultural education will be brought up to a level of instructional capability that its reputation deserves.

April 6, 1983 ALBERTA HANSARD 399 MR. PAPROSKI: Mr. Chairman, I too would like to congratulate the minister for his budget and wish him well in his portfolio. Indeed $818 million is a large amount of funds but, I believe, money well spent. I'd like to direct a number of general and specific questions to the minister dealing with advanced education topics that have been addressed to me by many of my constituents. My first question relates to continuing edu­ cation programs at the postsecondary level.

There has been a large increase in enrolment in these programs at such postsecondary institutions as NAIT and Alberta College. Does the minister foresee new funding ap­ proaches to help these postsecondary institutions accom­ modate and cope with this increase in number? My second question pertains to English as a second language programming offered at secondary and postsec­ ondary institutions. I would like to ask the minister if he has considered a review into ESL programs and, specifi­ cally, how many funds go to ESL programs throughout this province.

Are funds also allocated from your de­ partment to secondary schools offering ESL programs for adults through their continuing education programs? If that is so, would you have a figure for us? A third question: I too would like to ask the minister what programs have been considered to be transferred from NAIT to Westerra. I think there's no question that this is a very topical issue in that NAIT is situated within the boundaries of Edmonton Kingsway, and I've had a number of students and instructors and administration ask me specifically when and if final decisions are going to be made shortly.

Fourthly, with respect to the funds for further education that are mentioned in the estimates, could the minister identify for the Assembly how and where some of these funds are allocated? Fifthly, I would like to ask the minister to identify some of the special purpose grants, and are these grants already accounted for or are they available for the bid­ ding? Lastly, is the minister aware of the need for high technology graduates that our business industry and in­ deed our society will require over the next 10 years? [Mr. Appleby in the Chair] MRS. EMBURY: Mr.

Chairman, I'd like to congratulate the minister and say that it will be a pleasure over the next term to work closely with him on behalf of many of my constituents, not only the students who attend the universities or colleges or technical institutes but also the many university professors who live in Calgary North West. I'd like to make just one or two general comments and ask questions of the minister pertaining to nursing in Alberta.

Number one, an item that is conspicuous by its absence, which I think is something of note for all members in this Assembly, is the fact that as I understand it there is no longer a nursing implementation committee, which was set up by the Department of Advanced Educa­ tion and Manpower with specific objectives. On looking at the objectives of this committee, would the minister please comment if they were all met, if there were any recommendations that came to the minister, and what will be happening in the near future regarding the recommendations of this committee.

The Member for Clover Bar spoke about the right of individuals to attend university. I would also like to comment on the fact that there is a responsibility for all students in attending university. He also commented in regard to certain quotas in the faculties at the university. I think it is well known by members of the Assembly that quotas do exist. What was not stated when the member made those comments was that there are reasons for quotas in faculties at the university. One of the interesting quota systems we have is in the faculty of nursing.

This has been primarily due to the lack of clinical facilities in the communities. I would like the minister to please comment in regard to what is known as the articulation concept in nursing, if there is anything concrete being done regarding the various nursing pro­ grams, the three types — the colleges, the hospital schools of nursing, and the universities in regard to articulation. There was mention made about the opening of the nursing program at Keyano College.

I would certainly like to commend the previous minister and his depart­ ment for the many nursing programs that have been implemented across this province. I find it a source of pride to have been a member of a government that had such foresight in developing programs from the north to the south of this province. I lived in the north in Peace River at a time when there was a dream of a nursing program at the college in Grande Prairie, and it's interest­ ing to see that it is now under way.

One of the concerns I would like to address to the minister is if there are any new graduate programs pro­ posed for the universities regarding nursing. It's well and good to have many schools, be they college programs or university programs, opening up in nursing across this province. But of course one of the major issues that must be addressed is the qualified faculty to fulfil these posi­ tions. That's probably fairly general in many faculties, but unfortunately some of the new nursing programs seem to go through a period of instability.

I think one of the major problems relates to the availability of qualified faculty. I only ask the minister to comment on this particular issue because it is of great concern to the students who are registered in the various programs. I would like to make a comment or two about the University of Calgary, only from the point of view that the University of Calgary is truly a focal point within the community of Calgary.

A lot of special effort is under­ taken by the members of the board of governors, and also of the senate of the University of Calgary, to extend the facilities on that campus into the community, and also to have a lot of input from the community at large into the programs occurring at the university. I'd like to take this opportunity to commend the board of governors and the senate at the University of Calgary for their diligent work regarding making it a focal point for the community, and also working under what today might be considered restraints in regard to the budget.

It's a very difficult matter when we're looking at expanding enrolments in this institution, and yet you look at budgets that are under some type of restraint too. I would like to commend the board of governors and the people that are working at the university under the president for working very hard to try to live within the proposed budget as allocated in the estimates. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Chairman, when the minister began his remarks, he noted an occasion that we held in Fair- view College.

I must confess in a rather chivalrous way, since everybody seems to be agreeing with one another, that it was indeed a rather pleasant afternoon. I'm glad the minister had an opportunity to attend this particular opening at the Fairview College. He noted his boyhood

400 ALBERTA HANSARD April 6, 1983 interest in beekeeping, and the boyhood interest of the Provincial Treasurer in motorcycle mechanics. In my judgment, it would be totally unchivalrous of me if I did not indicate to them that I hope at some early time they will have an opportunity to participate in their boyhood dreams, and we would offer the facilities of Fairview College. But seriously, Mr. Chairman, one of the success stories in this department is Fairview College. I had occasion during that opening ceremony to recall the recommenda­ tions of the Worth Commission in 1972.

The Worth Commission had been set up by the previous government to look into the state of advanced education in the province. It reviewed Fairview, determined it was a pretty bleak prospect as an institution, and recommended, among other things, that one of the options for its future use might be as a alcoholic rehabilitation centre. Fortun­ ately the minister's predecessor, although he promoted Dr. Worth to deputy minister, did not take Dr. Worth's recommendations on this institution seriously.

What occurred thereafter was, I think, a success story that is worth noting for just a moment in the discussion of the estimates. We had a combination of pulling togeth­ er by the faculty, that recognized the institution was in trouble, and by a new principal, who realized that if the institution was to survive it had to reach out and develop new courses. I remember when the principal at the time, Mr. Nicol, got the okay from the department to bring in turf grass management. People wondered: what is heaven's name is turf grass management? That has to do with golf courses, doesn't it?

Why in heaven's name would we be teaching golf course management at an agricultural college? Yet it is now one of the most successful courses at the college, and it's attracting students from all over the country. So we had a principal that saw the need to expand the perimeters of the institution; we had a community that recognized that the college was an important element of the life of the Fairview area and co-operated closely — the chamber of commerce, the town council, the munici­ pal council.

And then I think in fairness, the government — and I don't like to give this government credit for much — recognized there was a role for a college like Fairview in northwestern Alberta, not just in the town of Fairview but in an outreach sense to other parts of the Peace. So by a coming together, if you like, of local initiatives from the faculty and administration, from the commu­ nity, and the government recognizing the increased role, we now have a college that, as the MLA for the area, I am immensely proud of.

We have at the moment a board that is doing a good job, and a president that I think has excelled over the last several years in undertaking the difficult task of leading Fairview College. There are, however, a number of capital proposals that the board has made, discussed with the minister, and I hope that during the course of consideration of estimates in the future, those very sound recommendations made by the board for capital expansion at Fairview will be followed through.

In dealing with the estimates of the department though, I really want to focus on three or four general items; then I have a couple of specific questions I'd like to put to the minister. When my colleague spoke a few moments ago, I believe he raised the issue of the much greater demand on postsecondary institutions as a result of the economic slowdown. Mr. Chairman, I don't think there's any doubt about it. There seems to be a definite correlation between the times, and if times get a little sluggish, the recession — there is a much greater tendency for young people especially to go on to higher learning.

Perhaps the years when we had the greatest expansion in our postsecondary facilities in this province were in the middle and late '60s, when we had if not a temporary downturn at least a sluggishness in the Alberta economy. We saw the University of Calgary become a fullfledged institution during those years as opposed to being just an adjunct of the University of Alberta. I remember the debate that raged for several years over whether or not there should be a separate university in Calgary or whether Calgary should just be UAC, Calgary branch of the University of Alberta.

And during those years we saw a university move from . . . Well I remember, just after graduating from university myself, going to the University of Calgary and seeing just two stark buildings. I'm sure the minister will remember those buildings. And now we have a major university which is equal to any university in the country. Similarly, Lethbridge was started in the most unprepossessing of ways, and during those years expanded substantially to the point where it too is a university we can be proud of. But I guess the point I want to make, Mr.

Chairman, is not simply to pat people on the back, but to observe that with 140,000 people out of work in this province, we are going to see pressures on our postsecondary institutions which are far greater than anything we've seen in the last five or six years. Young people, who five years ago, as soon as they got through grade 12, decided they were going to head out to the oil rigs and earn big money and then maybe go on in the years ahead, are now looking at the prospect of entering the postsecondary system right away — right after grade 12. So there's going to be an increase in enrolment.

As we review the estimates, Mr. Chairman, I think we have to be satisfied that in fact we are providing sufficient funds so our total postsecondary system — whether it be NAIT or SAIT, the Alberta vocational centres, the uni­ versities, or the public or private colleges in the province — is going to be able to accommodate the pressures of much higher enrolment.

I would say that as I discuss their concerns with university people in the province — and they tell me that, for example, there are going to be cutbacks in the number of teaching personnel at the University of Calgary — when I see attrition in other parts of the system, I ask the minister and the govern­ ment whether or not a strict application of financial guidelines in operating costs at this stage is not going to seriously reverberate against accessibility, especially of lower income people, to the system. Mr. Chairman, that leads us to the question of student assistance.

The minister quite properly pointed out that by special warrant there was an increase over the amount budgeted a year ago, but there's a 17.9 per cent reduction in the estimates this year over the forecast. Now I say to the minister, I do not think that is a wise way to budget. Rather than having to go the special warrant route — no doubt we're going to see that there will have to be a special warrant to bridge the difference — it seems to me that unless there's some specific reason that I haven't noted . . . MR. JOHNSTON: Bookkeeping. MR. NOTLEY: Bookkeeping, the minister says.

Well I'll be interested in the explanation of the bookkeeping, because it seems to me that it makes more sense for us to

April 6, 1983 ALBERTA HANSARD 401 budget additional funds so we don't have to go the special warrant route. Surely we don't want to have to pursue the path in this province when the Legislature's in session that our friends are in the province to the west, where we seem to have government by order in council and special warrant these days pending an election.

Now, unless the minister has a surprise and the Minister of Hospitals and Medical Care is so confident about his position that he wants to take this government into an election on user fees — an election I would welcome by the way — I think wishful thinking is beyond the capacity of my colleague and I at this time to bring to fruition. So assuming that there isn't going to be an election, the question really is: if you need more money for student assistance, let's put it in the budget.

I would say to the minister that the projections we have, in any event, in our discussions with the university people are that there will be a much greater draw this year than in past years. I would be interested in the minister taking some time in his initial wrap-up of every­ body's comments to outline how the government arrived at this figure. If it's bookkeeping, on what basis, and whether or not it's going to be a satisfactory allocation of funds given the pressure of higher enrolment. Mr.

Chairman, along with the issue of accessibility, proper funding of the students finance program has al­ ways been important as far as I'm concerned. It seems to me that any time you have a public system where more than 90 per cent of the dollars come from the taxpayers, you must ensure that that system is open to people regardless of their ability to pay or their parents' ability to send them on to higher learning. Otherwise what you have is a system which subsidizes high-income people. So we have to remove, if you like, the price tag from univer­ sity. Mr.

Chairman, as far as I'm concerned . . . [interjection] Somebody in the background says "socialist". I would be very surprised if the vast majority of students and the overwhelming majority of the b