VOL. 3 THIP~ SESSION OF THE THIRTY-NIN'!'H GE:t-TF.PAL ASSEHBLY OF "'-1P~'7F(JU!'IDI.NTD PHELI!HNARY UNEDITED TR..l\.NSCRIPT HOUSE OF .A_SSEH.BLY FOR THE PRRIOD: 3:00 p.~. - 6:00 o.m. THURSDAY, A:O~IJ, 5, 1984 NO. 18

April 5, 1984 The House met at 3:00 p.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape 697 MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! ORAL QUESTIONS MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker. EC - 1 MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR; WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Justice. In view of the fact that last Friday a very unfortunate event took place in the town of Hopedale which resulted in the death of two men and a lady, could the minister advise if he has received the police report and could he tell us the circumstances surrounding these deaths? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Justice. MR.

OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, with respect to the most unfortunate incident or series of incidents to which the_hon. member refers, I have only received a preliminary report. I am expecting a full police report within the next few days. I would not - and I am sure the han. gentleman would not wish me to - go into a great deal of detail, especially since I do not have the full police report. Obviously, and, I think, as the han. member is aware, as well, the person who apparently died a suicide had had previous conflicts with the law during the past number of months.

I expect to receive the complete police report within a few days. In incidents of violent death, it is customary that there is an inquiry and, while 1874

April 5, 1984 Tape 697 EC - 2 MR. OTTENHEIMER: I would not wish to say now until having received the full police report, certainly when I receive that, ve~y serious consideration will be given to the establishment of an inquiry. 1875

April 5, 1984 Tape No. 698 MJ - 1 HR. SPEAK'~<'R (Russell) Order, please! Before I recognize the han. rnember,we know there is going to be a distinguished visitor in the Gallery and I would just like to remind ~eople outside that there are not to be any ?ictures taken, 1·1hich ir, the custom. MR. !:-lEARY: MR. SPEA..T<ER: the House. MR. WARREN: !1R. SPEAKER: Mountains. HR. 1iJAP.REN : Only out in the corridors. No. Not in the nrecints of Mr. Speaker. The·hon. the member for Torngat A supplementary to the Hinister of Justice {!!r. Ottenheimer). MR. SPEAKER: taking pictures outside. smre RON. HE~!SERS: HP..

VJP..RREN : HR. SPEA..T<ER: Order, please! I would ask the cameramen to c~ase Hear, hear! ~~r. Speaker - Order, please! I !"lust interruiJt the han. the member once again. It is an extreme pleasure indeed for me to welcome to the Speaker's Gallery the han. Jean Chretien, the federal Minister of Energy for Canada. SOME HON. HEl1BERS : He ax:, hea:t!! : l1..."R.. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: A supplementar~r to the Minister of Justice.

I understand his concern in this matter in answering the question. r.ould the minister advise us if the young chap Nho presu~.a!-,br did cornrni t suicide was on probation or parole at the time? !-iR. SPEAKER: The han. the Hinister of Justice. 1876

April 5, 1984 Tape No. 698 MJ - 2 MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, the person in question had been convicted of an offense last September and was given two years suspended and placed on probation. During that period and the period of the suicide 1there had been two charges and two convictions 1one of them resulting in a three month sentence, which was served, and one resulting in a three day sentence, which was served, and there was anothe .r charge pending-. '3ut it was probation 1it was not parole. HR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEA.~R (Russell) The hon. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr.

Speaker, a final supplementary to the minister. Due to the fact that this did take place in a small community in Northern Labrador and it does have a large imoact on roastal Labrador and in particular Hopedale, din t!1e !!linister indica.te that t!:iere ~·?auld !:Je an enauirv set up?I ~·!auld like to ask the minister 1 considering the seriousness of this even~would the minister consider going one step further and appoint a judicial enquiry under the Public Enquiries Act? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Hinister of Justice. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Nell, ~~r .. Speaker, I will certainly consider it.

There weuld be h10 ·forms of enquiry, One would be the provnincial court enquiry which ensues, I cannot say automatically but,in the vast majority of cases where there is a violent death •. The hon. gentleman is referring to another form of enquiry which is a P.oval Commission. 1877

- - M- - -· -~---- - April 5, 1984, Tape 699, Page 1 -- apb MR. OTTENHEIMER: Of course I would point out, and I am sure the hon. gentleman is aware, that in terms of taking evidence, asub~oena, etc.,they both have .equal jurisdiction. I will certainly consider that and will advise the House when I have the full police report, number one, of the facts of the enquiry, and,number two, the nature of it, and that would be either a provincial court enquiry or under the Public Enquiries Act. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER(Russell): The hon. the member for Mount Scio. MR. BARRY: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to address a question to the Minister responsible for Energy (Mr. Marshall). I wonder if the Minister responsible for Energy is aware that the Minister of Fisheries(Mr. Morgan) took the position today during the Fisheries estimates that it was sufficient control for the Province,as far as the new restructured fish company is concerned,to have the three provincial nominees, because the federal nominees were - MR. MORGAN: That is not true. MR. SPEAKER.: Order, please! MR. MORGAN: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I recognize the hon. the Minister of Fisheries on a point of order. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, if the hon. gentleman is going to refer to any statements I made this morning in dealing with the estimates for the Department of Fisheries he has to refer to and quote me accurately. MR. TULK: He did. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, the fact is that the records of this .rnorning's debates and discussions are there and speak for themselves, and if the hon. gentleman is going to refer to any aspe~t of that debate of this morning, it is important that the records be here in the 1676

April 5, 1984, Tape 699, Page 2 -- apb MR. MORGAN: House to be reviewed by all hon. members. Mr. Speaker, the han. member should not be misquoting my position with regard to the fishing industry. In his attempt-he failed, by the way, he failed miserably this morning, failed again miserably, to belittle the Minister of Fisheries and this government in their efforts, successful efforts in.obtaining for this Province the best agreement ever with regard to the fishing industry. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

MORGAN: And if he is going to try to further belittle that effort, that successful effort and successful conclusion by twisting it around to make it look like we can use the same kind of effort in the offshore, yes, Mr. Speaker, maybe we can use the same successful efforts but not by misquoting the representations I made this morning during Committee. MR. NEARY: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER(Russell): To that point of order, the han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I believe Your Honour is aware that that is not a point of order, it is merely a difference of opinion between two han. gentlemen. My han. colleague, the member for Mount Scio(Mr. Barry) under the rules of the House of Assembly is entitled to ask the han. gentleman questions during the Oral Question Period. The han. gentleman can refuse to answer the questions if he so desires, Mr. Speaker. The only reason he raised that point of order, by the way, was just to try to use up a little time, as we only have a half hour. 1879

-- ------ --- April 5, 1984 Tape No. 700 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: r would submit, Your Honour, that my colleague be allowed to continue with his cross­ examination of the minister. MR. SPEAKER (_Russell) : To that point of order, it would certainly appear that this Chair is in no position to make a ruling 1right now at least, on what was said in a committee outside this Legislature today and indeed it certainly · is a difference of opinion between two hon. members. MR. BARRY: The h.on. member for Mount Scio. I would like to continue with my question to the Minister responsible for Energy (~r. Marshall).

In ligh .t of the fact that the Minister of Fisheries · (Mr. Morganl has confirmed that having three out of ten members on the board of the new restructured fis ·h company is a sufficient degree of control for the Province, since the federal appointees are Newfoundlanders,I wonder if this indicates a change of position with respect to the provincial government as far as control with respect to the joint management board is concerned?

I wonder if it would be sufficient to sati.s -fy the minister and government with _ respect to the offshore if the federal government were prepared to confirm that the federal appointees to the board would be Newfoundlanders? And I wonder, in light of this , whether the Mi'nister responsible for Energy, in light of the fact that the federal Minister for Energy (Mr. Chretien) is · in the Province and in this hon. House 1 could we have some fresh new initiative.s from the Minister respons -ible for Energy? SOME: HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: SOME H:ON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: Oh, . oh. Order, please! ' Oh _, oh.

Order, please! I think the Chair has allowed 1880

·---·-- - - April 5, 1984 Tape No. 700 so - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Russell): the hon. member for Mount Scio (Mr. Barry) ample

preamble to his question or questions MR. BARRY: MR. SPEAKER: I have not finished my question. and I would ask him to be very specific and very direct with his questions. The hon. member for Mount Scio . MR. BARRY: The final part of the question is whether the Minister responsible for Energy (Mr. Marshall) would take this opportunity with the federal minister present in this · Rouse to start or commence a fresh new initiative to indicate to the minister he is prepared to get back . to the bargaining table so that we can get this offshore issue settled once and for all? MR. SPEAKER: MR. MARSH11.LL: The hon.

President of; the Council. Mr. Speaker, first off 1 with respect to what the han •. Minister of Fisheries (.Mr. Morganl indicated 1 the han . gentleman should know there is as much difference. between that aspect of the fisheries and the operation of the company and the control of the offshore as there is between fish. which is head on and head off . I say with respect to the hon. gentleman 1tne nature of his question indi-cates that he has his head off. 1881

April 5, 1984 Tape No. 701 NM - 1 MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, if Newfoundlanders are on the board! Look, the fact of the matter is the situation, Mr. Speaker. with the offshore and the control of the offshore is well known and our position has been stated quite clearly. It was negotiated with the han. minister. First of all, I ~d like to say welcare to the hon. Federal Minister of Energy (Mr. Chretien). SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

MARSHALL: We on the government side are delighted to welcome a Minister of the Crown from the federal government or from the provinces and we are delighted to see him here in the Assembly. But,- Mr. Speaker, I would also say to the han. gentlemen there opposite that the issues that touch this Province are very grave and are of deep concern to the people of this Province. What we require from the offshore is equality, equality with the average Canadian, equality in management and equality with respect to revenue sharing. Now I could go much further than that, Mr.

Speaker, but I would deem it to be a grave discourtesy to get involved in by-play with the han. gentleman. The han. gentleman should know that the Federal Minister of Energy is quite capable of speaking for himself from time to time, is quite capable of putting his position, he does not ne.ed the han. gentlemen. And while the han. gentleman is a guest of this House, I fancy it would be a matter of good Newfoundland hospitality for us not to put him in a position of attempting to embarrass - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! 1882

April 5, 1984 Tape No. 701 MR. MARSHALL: -the han. gentleman in a forum where he cannot speak. Now I know the han. gentlemen there opposite like to be hand­ maidens of Ottawa from time to time but r. .can assure the han. gentlemen that the Federal Minister of Energy is quite capable of responding himself. NM - 2 The position of the government is well known with respect to the matter. The position of the government has been clearly stated and I do not know if the han. gentleman wishes to grandstand, or the han . gentlemen there opposite.

They · are welcome to do so if they will, , but we will not partake in it to the detriment of the people of this Province at the present time. The fact of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, as I say that our position is crystal clear. We seek equality from that resource which we brought into Confederation with us . To date we have nat been able to attain it from the present federal government, but we have no doubt that we will attain it eventually from the people of Canada. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker. 1883

J.!l L.. .. --. April 5, 1984 Tape 702 PK - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Minister for Rural, Agriculture and Northern Development (Mr. Goudie), I would like to ask a question to the minister responsible for Energy (Mr. Marshall). Mr. Speaker, one cannot help but wonder if the same policy of this government applies to the less fortunate people in St. John's as it appl1es to Coastal Labrador . Mr. Speaker, everyone knows that recently a big controversy arose in St. John's over accommodations for social assistant recipients. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Oh, .oh: MR. SPEAI<ER: Order, please! MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, as a result of this controversy, the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey) has made accommodations available throughout St. John's at various hotels for social assistant recipients who have been living in accommodations · that were unfit to be living in. I ~o,rould like t ~ table some information, ~ir. Speaker, on some t~·Ten ty-odd houses which the -Minister of Rural, Agriculture and Northern Development has issued a bill of sale .on to the Native people in Nain telling them that we are going to sell these houses to you for you to occupy.

Now, Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the minister in resoonse to stA-te if t.tJ.ere is a different oolicv for the - ·- - - ------ ·-·- ... - ··- .·:._ -- - -- Native people of Labrador fthen there is for people of lower incomeswho are living in and around St. John's? MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, l did not know whom the hon. gentleman was asking the question of. The fact of the matter is for clarification the hon. Minister of Rural, Agriculture and Northern Development is in Labrador attending 1884

April 5, 1984 Tape 702 PK - 2 MB.. MARSHALL: the funeral of a member of his family, and that is why he is not here, and I know the hen. gentleman understands that. I c.an only say to the }lon. gentleman that every person in Newfoundland 1be they in Nain or be they in Hopedale or St. John's or Bonavista,are treated alike, they are equal before the law. And the r'"llicies that - --- this government implements for the benefit of the people of the Province are available to them as well as to anyone else. MR. WARREN: Mr • Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Ru·ss ·el'l') ~ MR. WARREN: The hen. member for Torngat Mountains . Mr.

Speaker, I would like to put my next question to the Minister of Health (M:r. House), and I would suggest to the page that probably the Minister of Health can have one of t4ese copies also. I ask the Minister of Health did he ask his health inspectors to go in and inspect these homes before another arm of government decided to sell them to the Native people? :r: would like to ask the Minister of Health if he had an inspector carry out an inspection? 1885

April 5, 1984 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Health. MR. HOUSE: Tape 703 EC - 1 The han. the Minister of Mr. Speaker, the Department of Health Inspection Services only inspect homes at the request of councils or if there is an indication that there is some pestilence in the particular area. There is no standard practice for Health Inspection to inspect dwelling houses. So, Mr. Speaker, I have not. There is no ·cause for me to do it, I have not been advised of it and I should not be advised of it. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr.

Speaker, what a way for a Minister of -Health to act! He said there was no cause! I have raised this question in the House on several occasions about houses that are unfit for huran habitation in Nain. MR. HOUSE: Who are you? MR. WARREN: Who am I? An elected member representing people - ~1R. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! The oon. the rrember for Torngat Mountains is now getting into a speech and perhaps he should direct a question to somebody. MR. WARREN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to ask the Minister of Health will he undertake now to advise the ·Department of Rural Development to cancel those sales until there is a health inspection carried out on those homes? SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: MR. HOUSE: Hear, hear! The han. the Minister of Health. Mr. Speaker, the han. member said, you know, 'A Minister of Health to give that kind of answer!' I wonder if some health inspector walks into the han. gentleman's house, wherever he lives, to inspect it tomorrow morning, how he would feel about it? 1886

April 5, 1984 Tape 703 EC - 2 MR. HOUSE: There is no responsibility on the Department of Health to go in and inspect people's houses unless somebody comes to us and asks us to go and inspect the home and the facilities ar~und it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Russell}: Order, please~ MR. HOUSE: And then, when we get the proper representation, if we deem it necessary, we will do it. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr.

Speaker, I have to advise the hon. the minister that those homes belong to the government and it is the minister's obligation to inspect them. SOME HON. r~ERS: Oh, oh! MR. WARREN: I heard the comment that the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey) made and in fact, in that light, Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Social Services a question. Since, Mr.

Speaker, the government already cas been told by the town council of Nain that those homes are unfit for human habitation, and knowing that the Minister of Social Services has clients in those homes, will the Minister of Social Services take the same approach towards the people in Nain as he has taken towards welfare recipients in St. John's, put them in hotels? There is an hotel in Nain unoccupied at the present time. Why does he not do so? 1887

.-r. April 5, 1984, Tape 704, Page 1 -- apb MR. SPEAKER(Russell): The han. the Minister of Social Services. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I do not know what the han. gentleman is talking about. He is talking about a boarding house problem in St. John's, and it seems like he is itching to .~~d up with a boarding house problem in Nain. I cannot accommodate the han. gentleman by creating a boarding house problem in Nain.

But I will . ... ~ tell the han. gentleman that if people are living in unsanitary conditions, overcrowded conditions, where there is not good quality care being provided for boarders in Nain, in Davis Inlet, in Timbucktoo, the same policy developed by my department on behalf of this government applies to Cape Chidley, St. ~ohn's, and Mount Pearl. MR. WARREN.:. Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary question for the Minister of Social Services(Mr. Hickey). MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Torngat Mountains on a supplementary. MR.

WARREN: I understand that the community of Nain has been without a social worker for the past month and a half, Could the minister advise if his department -has recruited a social worker for the community of Nain? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Social Services. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, very seriously, I cannot respond to that. I will take it under advisement and check. I do not know. We could have one today, we might have had one yesterday, I do not know. I will look into that. I will tell the han. gentleman, though, that recruitment is done through the Public Service Commission.

There is no lineup of people waiting to go to Nain and those isolated communities to work . 1888

April 5, 1984, Tape 704, Page 2 - - apb MR . HICKEY: At the same time, I will tell him that we have made such strides in delivering services to Native peoples in this Province . The district office that we had some trouble with a little - - · while ago has the highest staff/client ratio in the whole Province, six staff members serving a population of 1,500. So this government is well known for the emphasis it places on delivering services to the Native peoples of this Province, and the North. MR. WARREN: Mr . Speaker • ~-~· SPEAKER (Russell) : The han . member for Torngat Mountains. 1889

April 5, 1984 Tape No. 705 SD - 1 MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey). I understand the minister could not answer the question then.. Could the minister advice if it is true what his administrator in Goose Bay relayed to school board officials that the department does not know when they will have a social worker for Nain because, in his words, ''There are no s-ocial workers within the Province willing to go to Nain'. Is that true? MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The han. Minister of Social Services. MR. -HICKEY: Again, Mr.

Speaker, it would be making an assumption which I am not prepared to make. I will take the matter under advisement and advise the han. gentleman by telephone or indeed through the Legis ·lature tomorrow• on the status of our effects to recruit somebody to work at Nain. I merely remind him,as he is well acquainted with , I am sure , that a vacancy in the North., especially in a community and town like Nain, does -not bring the same number of applications. And this i·s what I' meant when I said there was no line-up of people waiting to serve in the North. _ But I do want to take th.e opportunity, Mr.

Speaker, to say that we have s-ome very credible, some very · profess -ronal, highly qualified people working in the North to whom we are extremely grateful for th .e hlgh calibre of s·ervi'ce that they deliver to our people, MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, at least I am getting better answers from the Minister of Social Services than I d:i:d from the Minister of Health (_Mr. Hous ·e l . I would like to ask the Minister of Social Services now 1 knowing that 1890

April 5, 1984 Tape No. 705 SD - 2 MR. WARREN: he does have social assistance recipients living in those homes which I just showed the minister pictures of, would the minister now undertake to advise his Labrador staff 1 and if it is necessary to advise the Department of Health 1 the health inspectors , to go in and see if those homes are fit for social assistance recipients to be living in? MR . SPEAKER {_"Russell ): The hon. Minister of Social Services. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, at the expense of being accused of defending my colleague, the Minister of '-- Health (_Mr.

H:ousel, for whom not defence is required and who is most capacle of defending himself 1 I have to agree with . him that he is absolutely accurate when he tells the hon. gentleman that it would be termed a violation of privacy · , indeed an intrusion for him to send his officials in without a request being made. I can more definitively respond to the hon. gentleman by saying that I will alert my staff to th .e hon. gentleman's concerns.

If through their vis ·itat:i:ons they · find conditions so unsanitar y or unsuitable oJ:: unacceptacle that they de.em it appropriate to make a reques ·t for h.eal th inspection , they will so do. And I say to th.e hon. gentleman with all th.e sincerity in the world, . I was- not joking or being frivolous with _ regards . to the issue when r said to hi'rn, and my offer s-till stands, there is a motel in Nain, I believe, and if there are people for whom there are . no suitable accommodations or if there are emergency situations 1 our policy of putting people up in the Skyline or any other hotel in this cit y 1891

April 5, 1984 Tape No. 706 MJ - l MR. HICKEY: a.o:rlies to the saJTle degree to tlie · people of ~rain or any other cornmrnuni ty or town in the Province. HR. WARREN: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) Mountains. HR. W'ARREN: Mr. Speaker. The han. the member for Tor~gat The minister · said that it mioht be an intrusion on privacy;, but I think the minister is forqetting one important element in the whole issue which is that those ~ones belen ~ to this ~avern~ent and this government is trying to sell those homes to the Native peoole. This is where the whole problem lies. r~:r.>. . HI C ~<E Y: MR.

WARREN: ~a.lk to t!le H.inister of Housing. No. ':':'l.e ~r l:lelon'! t:o the l)e.,;ortm .ent of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. So I will just ask the minister one more time: knowing that the government O'NnS those homes, would the minister see fit that before those homes are sold, a~ a nominal fee,by the way, to those recipients that there will be an inspection carried out before those homes are sold to the people? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Social Services. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I want to be very careful because if I give the han. gentleman my word to do something I want to do it.

I assure him that I will go to whatever length I can in discussing with my colleague, the Minister of Development (Hr. Windsor), who is also Minister of Housing, to see if something cannot be done. So I am not passing the buck when I say that what the han. gentleman is now asking for seems to me is more appropriately done by the Division of Housing through Newfoundland and Labrador Housing,because all housing in the final analysis comes under 1892

April 5, 1984 t~R . HICKEY : Housing (Mr . Windsor ). Tape No. 706 MJ- 2 my colleague , the ~1inister of For me to have my staff do an inspection, \'lhich they are not qualified to do in the strict sense of th e word 1 I thi~~ would be inappropriate. Any people who are buying tho se houses or who are being provided those houses who are social assistance recipents, then we have a profound responsibility and I will see to it that tha t is lived up to . MR . WARREN : Mr. Speaker . MR . SPEAXER (Russ ell) : The hon . the member for Torngat Mountains . MR. HICI<EY : ~tr . Speaker, I thank the minister.

My next question is to the ~~nister of Mu nicipal Jlffai rs (Mrs . Ne whook) . Could the Minister of '1unicipal Affairs advise us if her depar tment has a different criteria when dif ferent to~·.m councils or co!'\1'\unties are al"'nl'fug for water and sewe rage proje::ts? a~~ there different criteria for fin<:~.ncii".l arra nae:ntents f'nr the di f;~er.e nt: to•·rn councils ' throughout the Province of Newfoundland and Lab rador? noes the sam e criteria appl y to all to'~>m councils ? I hope she says ye s. 1893

-.. --- ·------------- --- - April 5, 1984 Tape No. 707 NM - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The han. Minister of Municipal Affairs. MRS. NEWHOOK: Yes, Mr. Speaker, the same criteria apply across the Province. MR. WARREN: Mr. speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The·hon. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

If the same criteria apply which I think call for 15 per cent of a municipality's fixed revenues . be applied against government guarantee~loans, why is it the Town Council of Nain is not allowed to use that c~iteria but has to guarantee the minister's department that on phase one of the water and sewage project Nain has to take $170,000 out of the Federal/ Provincial Native Agreement, which could be used for housing, but has to be taken out of the Federal/Provincial Native Agreement against the guaranteed loan? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of .Municipal Affairs. MRS . NEWHOOK: Mr.

Speaker, the han. member is incorrect when he says that municipalities all across the Province are only required to pay a minimum of 15 per cent of their fixed revenues towards capital debt. We have quite a number of municipalities who pay 100 per cent of their debt. MR. WARREN: it. That is right. They can afford MRS. NE~lliOOK: W~ have others who pay 50 per cent, 70 per cent, 80 per cent. It depends on the ability of the municipality to pay. 1894

April 5, 1984 Tape No. 707 NM- 2 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: That is exactly it, Mr. Speaker. If the town can afford it they can pay it. Right. But the Town Council of Cartwright, the Town Council of North west River are only - MR. MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : A point of order, Mr. Speaker. Order, please! The hon. the President of the Council on a point of order. MR. MARSHALL: The hon. gentleman is running a one-man show here this afternoon. MR. SIMMS: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. MARSHALL: Hear, hear! The next leader. Oh, oh! Order, please!

Order, please! It is very good but the only trouble, Mr. Speaker, he is making speeches and advancing arguments and doing everything but asking questions. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The questions are supposed to be brief and the answers equally as brief. I am not sure if it was a valid point of order raised by the hon. President of the Council (Mr. Marshall). In any event, the time now for the Question Period has expired. DR. COLLINS: MR. SPEAKER: DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, a point of order. The hon. Minister of Finance. On a point of order., Mr. Speaker.

I wonder if I could revert to Ministerial Statements just very briefly? MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. minister have leave to revert to Ministerial Statements? SOME HON. MEHBERS: MR. SPEAKER: Agreed. Agreed. 1895

April 5, 1984 Tape No. 707 NM - 3 DR. COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and I thank the Opposition. They have been very accommodating, as they always are, of course. This is a very brief statement. Mr ;_ Speake:r ·; I am pleased to inform the House that Government has adopted formal procedures to cover the method of acquiring insurance coverage on government assets. These procedures confirm that insurance will be acquired in accordance with the principles of public tendering. Mr.

Speaker, while we have followed the spirit of public tendering up to now, the adoption of formal procedures demonstrates Government's commitment to the competitive process, thereby ensuring that as many qualified firms as possible have the opportunity to submit bids. Under these procedures, government is also assured of obtaining the best possible coverage at the lowest available prices. Insurance policies will normally be for a one-year period, but government will have the option to extend policies for up to three years. Beyond that period, competitive bids will be sought. Thank you. MR. SIMMS : Good news • MR.

HODDER: MR. SPEAKER: au Port. Mr. Speaker. The hon. member for Port MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, there seems to be nothing in this statement that we could disagree with at face value. we are pleased that the principles of public tendering will be used. Certainly 1 1896

April 5, 1984 Tape 708 PK - 1 MR. HODDER: as I understand 1they were not used on the Bell Island ferry. But before, Mr. Speaker, for example, when someone became involved in an accident with a government vehicle,or became involved with some sort of an accident which required compensation with something belonging to the government whether it be a vehicle or not, there was often bargaining and legal wrangles. It is our hope this will make the process more equitable and it is also our hope that it will hasten the p~ocess,:'>1r.

Speaker, because bargaining and wrangling with the government whenever there was a problem insurance-wise, has always taken a long period of time ·' pnd very often it carne down to a bargaining between government and the individual. So, Mr. Speaker, I realize my time has run out, but we do support this and we do hope that it will solve the problems and wrangles and it will hasten the process. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. PRESENTING REPORTS OF STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. member for Fortune- Hermitage. MR. STEWART: Mr.

Speaker, a point of order was raised in Committee this morning by the member for Mount Scio (Mr. Barry) and a ruling was made by the Chairman. This ruling was not complied with and a motion was made to refer the matter to the House. Subsequently a point of privilege was raised by the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) 1 on which -- ~ -- -- I am reporting to the Speaker,' since I \•laS· unable to rule on a point of privilege in Committee. The point of order raised by the member for Mount Scio was with respect to language used by the Minister of Fisheries alleged to be unparliamentary.

The point of privilege raised by the Minister of Fisheries was with 1897

April 5, 1984 Tape 708 PK ~ 2 MR. STEWART: respect to the conduct of the Opposition members during the examination of the estimates of the Department of Fisheries. MR. SP ·EAKER (Russell}: The Chair has heard the report fro~ the han. member for Fortune-Hermitage (Mr. Stewart) as to events that took place in the Committee this morning. If the han. Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) and/or the hon. member for Mount Scio (Mr. Barry) wish to take a couple of minutes perhaps to put forth some repart,af what happened, I will make a ruling on it either now or later. The han. Minister of Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: Mr.

Speaker, I think I will address the point of privilege I raised this morning in the Committee on the estimates, in this case, of Fisheries. And what I found happening was that we appeared before the Estimates Committee on Monday evening far three hours, and most of that time there ~·Tas ;anly one membe:t: from the Opposition in attendance. There were two and one had to leave to go to other business, the member fo:t: Fogo (Mr. Tulk) ,I believe, and the only member of the Opposition was the member for Mount Scio (Mr • . Barry).

We gave three hours of estimates time and it was agreed to come back this morning to continue, accompanied by officials who do not take

part in discussion, but they were there. And my point of p:t:ivilege was, Mr. Speaker, listening to the wrangles and the dis:t:uptions this morning in the Committee caused by the member fo:t: Mount Scio. and looking at what happened last evening on the Finance Estimates when he was quoted in the morning paper as saying the Committees were a farce, h8 disrupted the Carmtittees proceedings yesterda : _-, 1898

April 5, 1984 Tape 708 PK - 3 ~m. 1-~:>~: end this rro:rn:ing it \>!ciS the sarre kind of a tactic to ... : .. :~--,- -- disrupt the proceedings of the Committee, We had :rTEmbers on the government side, from fishing districts)in particular, who wanted to ask questions, who wanted to have good debate and discussion on the issues , on the programmes and policies and how this minister is going to spend the funds in the coming year of the Department of Fisheries.

I said it was a waste of time for any minister and his senior officials to be there having to listeB to and follow the disruptions caused by the member who was out to scuttle the process of Committees dealing with the estimates. Thatwas clearly evident from his activities in other Estimate ' Committees. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MORGAN: -- He -is quoted as saying that it was all a farce. And I am saying, Mr • Speaker, that kind of attitude and that kind of action is a violation of privilege of a minister or a member who wants to appear as a witness.

I was appearing there as a witness requested by the Committee, and that kind of a situation should not be allowed to continue. MR. CARTER: No indeed. MR. MORGAN: Because it is a violation o~ our rights as members who want to give evidence, who want to give information, who want to have information flow to the public through the media,who can also take part and listen to the discussion and debate. And that was the point of privilege I raised. Now, Mr. Speaker, the Committee Chairman (Mr. Stewart), rightly so, because the Committee is governed by the rules of the House of Assembly, 1899

April 5, 1984 Tape 709 EC - l MR. MORGAN: decided to have this matter referred to Your Honour, the Speaker, for further input and a final decision through the House of Assembly and this has now been done. Now, as to the accusation made this morning by the same hon. member for Mount Scio (Mr. Barry), who was continuing to disrupt the proceedings of the Committee, that I said something unparliamentary,•used some unparliamentary language, he said during the discussion that the word 'vindictive' was unparliamentary.

I had said during the debate, and I nai.ntain it now in the House, that the hon. gentleman has been vindictive towards the Peckford administration; he has been out to scuttle the Peckford administration, and I stood by my statement in the Committee and I would not withdraw. The Committee asked me to withdraw that state­ ment and I said no, I could not because it was a judgement call on the part of the Chairman not in accordance with any rule.

He told us, and rightly so, that the parlia­ mentary procedures indicate that the word 'vindict'ive' is not, i~ fact, a violation of parliamentary rule and is not unparliamentary. I did not withdraw that term and I did not withdraw what I had to say. And what I said then, I will say in the House. I said the hon. gentleman from Mount Scio has been vindictive towards the Peckford administration ever since he quit the Cabinet. He has been out to scuttle this administration. And now he is out to scuttle the system of Committees dealing with the estimates. I further went on to say during the debate, ~tt.

Speaker, he was also - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! Order, please! 1900

April 5, 1984 Tape 709 EC - 2 MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, the hon. the Opposition House Leader (Mr. Hodder) can have his say on this point. So, Mr. Speaker, the hon. the member for Mount Scio (Mr. Barry) asked the Chairman to ask me to withdraw that statement, that he was not out to scuttle this administration and scuttle the restructuring as well.

And I used the argument during the Committee stage that because he was then involved as a lawyer in the scuttling of the company, Fishery Products, by placing that company into receiver­ ship at a time when we were,as a government, trying to find private sector investment dollars to save F~shery Products, that same hon. gentleman then scuttled the whole scheme that the Peckford administration was trying to put in place by arranging through his legal advice to the Bank of Nova Scotia to place that company into receivership. And I posed as an example, Mr.

Speaker, why was it the Bank of Nova Scotia in the Province of Nova Scotia, the same bank we have here involved with the fish companies, gave three extensions to enable National Sea and the government in Nova Scotia to find private sector dollars to put into National Sea to keep them from being restruc­ tured with federal government money? Why was it that the same bank over there was so lenient with National Sea and not placing National Sea into bankruptcy or receivership? They gave them three or four extensions. Open what advice? Upon legal advice.

And here in this Province, becaus~ the same hon. gentleman, appearing before the Committee, because he took exception to me saying he was out to scuttle this government 1901

April 5, 1984, Tape 710, Page 1 -- apb MR. MORGAN: and he was vindictive toward the Premier 1 he then took exception to what I was saying, that he was out to scuttle the restructuring. Mr. Speaker, as I told the Committee this morning, and I stand by my statement, I am saying it in the House, the hon. gentleman, first of all, was out to scuttle the restructuring process by placing Fishery Products into receivership,upon his advice as a man outside this Legislature, no connection as an M.H.A., but as a legal, private sector advisor, and I used that and used it quite factually.

Secondly, that he was out to scuttle this administration, and,thirdly, he is out now to try to scuttle the Committee system dealing with the estimates. That is the issue, Mr. Speaker. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER(Russell): I recognize the han. the member for Mount Scio(Mr. Barry) and shall certainly allow equal time as the minister, which was, in my estimation, six minutes. MR. BARRY .: Thank you very much, Mr . Speaker. A good ruling . Mr. Speaker, first the facts: The facts of what took place this morning are that I rose on a point of order to submit that the Minister of Fisheries(Mr.

Morgan) ,in an attempt to avoid responding to the questions put sincerely and seriously by members of the Estimates Committee, had resorted to questioning the motives of myself as I put the questions to the minister. So the point of order was that the minister was questioning my motives. The Chairman found and ruled that, in fact, the Minister of Fisheries ' was challenging my motives, ruled, as automatically had to follow since it is clearly established in this House i902

April 5, 1984, Tape 710, Page 2 -- apb MR. BARRY: that to question the motives of any hon. member is unparliamentary, ruled that the language used was unparliamentary and asked the Minister of Fisheries(Mr. Morgan) to withdraw. MR. HODDER: And he refused. MR. BARRY: The Minister of Fisheries, as he confirmed here again this aftrrnoon, point-blank challenged the Chair, challenged the authority of the Chairman, refused to withdraw and went on to repeat the same diatribe we see him carrying on here in the House this afternoon. Now, Mr.

Speaker, this is a serious matter in that we have to seek the protection of the Chair in the Estimates Committee as we do have to seek Your Honour's protection from time to time when the minister tries to resort to the same tactics in the House of Assembly. The minister is now saying that he based his reaction upon. what took place in the Finance Committee estimates yesterday. The minister was not present. I was present during the course of the · Finance estimates being considered by the Committee, he was not present yesterday evening. The minister has challenged the authority of the Chair. Mr.

Speaker, we submit that that challenge is something that cannot go unanswered. It is putting the entirecommittee_system,and, in fact, the entire procedure of this House at risk to permit the minister in that authoritative and dictatorial fashion to purport to tell members of the House of Assembly in Estimates Committee what we may or may not put in terms of questions to the ministers. That is what the minister is saying, he will aecide what questions to answer. r1r. Speaker, for Your Honour's information, the questions dealt with the philosophy of the minister. We were on the minister's salary and we 1903

April 5, 1984, Tape 710, .Page 3 -- apb SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER(Russell) : Order, please! MR. BARRY: - dealt with the philosophy of the minister. We submitted that the minister had shown incompetence in negotiating and therefore we we.re concerned that the same incompetence would be shown in the future with respect to future negotiations in the fishing industry.

We established that the minister, as was pointed out earlier in a question, had been prepared to give up control to the federal government in this most impo.rtant resource, the fishing industry, and at that point, I guess, the minister could not take it any longer. The minister made allegations with respect to a certain client whom I was proud to represent, a client that had financed the fishing industry,and still does 1 in more rural communi ties around Newfoundland than any other financial institution, that did more to support t.he fishing 1904

April 5, 1984 Tape No. 711 MR. BARRY: industry in hard times than the minister ever did. They kept the company going wh .en the minister was · not prepared to do anything for it. The minister asked why was it that in Nova Scotia there were certain extensions of time given and so forth. I' submit to you, Mr.

Speaker, that it was SD - 1 clear to all the people of the Province that in Nova Scotia we had a government that was prepared to negotiate with the federal government, a government that did not walk away from the bargaining table and thereby give up all opportunity of having any control aver the fishing industry. We had a government that was prepared to support the private sector instead of a governm~t which here , while engaging in the rhetoric of wanting to have the private sector involved , has ended up with an agreement that gives control to government.

The .minister stood up again today during Question Period and s-aid this is a good deal for the Province. The minister cannot have it both ways: Either it is a good deal with government invol vement or it is a bad deal because the private sector is not involved. Now which is it? . M...~. MORnAN: Your time is up. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speak .er will tell me wh.en my time is up. BUt, Mr. Speaker, we have a very · serious problem here in that the Minister of Fisheries, (}1r. Morgan} because h.e i:s in the hot seat, because he has the fisheries' policy in shambles - HR. TOBIN: You were so upset you were going to leave •.

MR •. · SPEAKER (Russell)" : Order, please: MR. BARRY: .,. because the minister has the fishing industry in shambles with his lack of policy, with his lack of leadership, with his incompetence in negotiations 1905

April 5, 1984 Tape No. 711 SD - 2 MR. NEARY: I Voice in the nind. I MR. BARRY: - 'Voice in the Wind' , Hr . Speaker- the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) therefore has attempted to avoid the Estimates Committee questioning him on his philosophy, on his policies, on the manner in which he engaged in negotiations and so forth. And he has attempted to stymie the investigation of a Committee of this House into his operation as minister and into his department's administration of the fishing industry. It is a shameful day for this Province and we ask the protection of the Chair. MR. SPEAKER CRusselll: Order, please!

The Chair at the beginning said it recognized the two hon. members who were involved in the points raised in Committee and ',does not feel that there is a need to hear any further arguments for fear that it could get into sort of a full-scale debate on the point. r think both hon. members explained their positions very well. Of course, not being present. I shall wait to get the transcripts of what both hon. gentlemen said today and a transcript of what transpired this morning in the Committee and, obvious·ly 1 reserve a ruling and rule on it later. MR. HODDER: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speak.er, I was· not at that particular Committee mee.ting so r am not talking about that Cornmi ttee mee.ting at all. MR. STAGG: You should have been there. MR. HORGAN: r-:rhere were you? . MR. SPEAKER: Order,. please!_ --- ·----------- - M,_~. WAP~~N : It is none of your business, MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, this is ridiculous. 1906

April 5, 1984 Tape No. 711 so - 3 MR. S.PEAKER lRusselll: Order, please! MR. NEARY: Be was out looking for your record, the flip side of your record. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker# this was a point of order which I intended to raise before which also al!os·e . -. from the Committee. And perhaps when !<ir. Speaker rules - -- - ··- - on this point of privilege he might take this into consideration . -- ·- -. One of the problems that we have seen in some of the Committees is that they do not run by the rules of the House.

And my understanding from the Standing Orders is th.at the Committees,except in certain circumstances where rulings might go back to the Chair for clarification, that the Committees Should run by the rules of the Bouse. Now, Mr • Speaker~ in normal times and normal 1907

--·---- ---- · April 5, 1984 Tape No. 712 MR. HODDER: , circumstances ,the committees work very well. They can sometfumes be very quiet ~"i t~1 conversation '!.Oin<J l1ack MJ- l and forth at a very normal pace and most members do not object to the fact that the~- rules of the House are not strictly enforced. But occasionally, Mr. Speaker, when a hot item comes up such as the one that we just referred to this rnorning 1 or in other departments where something which is ' in the public eye t~is r.ide or t~~t Ride feels very strongly about,we find that sometimes chaos reigns.

I remember in the Social Services Estimates 1 at one time there we did not know if we were on points of order, points of privilege, everybody was just jumping in• -~ do not say that in a derogatory way towards the Chairman because he has been the Chairman for quite a long time and runs quite a good committee,bu~ I believe, Mr. Speaker, from the experience that we have seen on some issues ~~at perhaps Your Honour should take it under consideration that we should run them strictly because someti6es . the rules just break down and fly apart.

I understand that ~bers, publicl~ on both sides of the House have expressed these same feelings,that these committees should be run more strictly by the rules of the House. I think the days of the soft hand is over and that the committees are becoming much harder hitting than they used to be• ~e~~a~s Your Honour would like to take that under consideration. I raised this point of order just for that purpose. MR . .M.ARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) The han. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, it is not reall y a point of order but it is something I think the government should respond to. This committee system has been set u~ 1908

April 5, 1984 Tape No. 712 MJ - 2 MR. MARSHALL: and is working extremel y well. It would be, Mr. Speaker, working much better if we had the co-operation of the hon. gentleman there opposite, Now the fact of the matter is, ~I. Speaker, what the hon. gentlemen are doing is trying at every stage to bomb out the effectiveness of that committee. This year we have moved to accommodate the hon. gentlemen at every turn. They wanted to have no more than one meeting running concurrently,which we did, there is only one meeting at a time. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Do not forget Don Jamieson. MR.

MARSHALL: As the hon. the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) indicated, 'Do not forget the hon. Don Jamieson either.' The hon. Don Jamieson was part of this system and he is the coauthor. MR. NEARY: ~oMebodv brought him home for good. MR. MARSHALL: It is all ricrht to say that now, but when the hon. gentleman was runningt~inns, the hon. 9entleMan was as obsequious as he always was to Mr. Jamieson and Mr. Smallwood et al. But the fact of the matter is, Hr. Speaker- SO!'!J':'' H0~1. !".:"1".BERS : C\h, oh! MR. SPEAKE R (R ussell) : Order, please! MR.

MARSHALL: -I do not understand the hon. gentleman's point of order~ Your Honour might have been a school teacher before Your Honour got in the Chair ,but Your Honour is not a school teacher in the Chair. I mean, he is almost like he is somebody reporting to the principal. Now the fact of the matter is there are parliamentary rules, Mr. Speaker, that can be enforced in the committees, these committees can work if there is a good will on both sides to make them work, there is good ~.,ill on the government side, as has been indicated this year that we have only had one meeting 1909

April 5, 1984 Tape No. 712 .MJ - 3 MR. MARSHALL: at a time,and if the hon. ~e~tle~e~ would stop grandstand .ing and t.ryin':" to ohc:;trnct the "7n'! in which the committees were operating they would work even better. t~. O'!'TEJ'l!fEn~:t: Bring Don home. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : To that point of order raisen by the hon . the member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder) - SOME HON. ~mERS: Oh, ohJ MR. SPEAKER: Order, plea sel Order, please!

The Chair is not in any position to rule on good will which may · or may not exist in committees, but certainly a committee of this Legislature, be it here as a Committee of the Whole or outside 1 is certainly an extension of this Legislature and 1except under certain circumstances , perhaps · should operate under the same rules. J. suu~ose t~e res~onsihility fo~ t~e ope~n.tion of. i'l.nv committee lies with the Chairman of that committee. 1910

April s, 1984 Tape No. 713 NM - 1 NOTICES OF MOTION : MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MR. OTTENHEIMER: The han. Minister of Justice. I was in reverie back to a few years ago when the han. Don Jamieson was here, co-author of this excellent system~and I was just refelecting back and I almost forgot to give notice of motion. I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled, "An Act To Amend The District Court Act, 1976." ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. MARSHALL: Committee of Supply. On motion that the House resolve itself into Committe of the Whole on Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair.

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY: MR . CHAIRMAN (Aylward): Order, please! Committee of Supply, We are on Consolidated Fund Services . Opposition. MR . NEARY: . The hon. the Leader of the First of all, Hr. Chairman, let me say that anyone observing the proceedings of this House since it opened in June will notice that the Premier sits in his seat on very rare occasions. MR. YOUNG: Who? MR. NEARY: The Premier. And when he does appear in the House, Mr. ~. he will only sit in his seat there opposite for a few minutes . It seems to us, Mr .

Chairman, that the Pre~ier will do anything except sit in this House and sit in his office where he is supposed to be. He will avoid like ' 1911

April 5, 1984 Tape No. 713 1 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: the plague thinking about the problems of this Province down in his office, or becoming involved in debates in this House. He will do anything to get out of his office, Mr. Chairman. He cannot take the heat of the House of Assembly, and he cannot stand to be in his office thinking about the economic and financial problems of this Province. Mr. Chairman, the Premier will accept an invitation to speak anywhere, at any time, he will accept invitations to have his picture taken anywhere as long as he can get away from Confederation Building. Mr.

Chairman, not only is the hon. gentleman a poor administrator and a greedy negotiator, but he is quickly earning the reputation as one of the laziest premiers in the whole history of this Province. What a reputation, Mr. Chairman. The hon. gentleman now went down to Labrador West, took off for Labrador West. My hon. colleague, the member for Mount Scio (Mr. Barry) went down ten days ago, two weeks ago, to a big banquet in Labrador West, in Wabush, in the Sir Wflfred Grenfell Hotel. The largest banquet I think they ever had in that hotel, ove~flowing.

The hotel is being refurbished and renovated and I believe the first big banquet they had my hon. colleague was the guest speaker. Now the Premier had to put together in a hurry some kind of a Tory presence in the area so that he could get down. But he refused to meet with the unions, refused to meet with the town councils, refused to meet with the Chamber of Commerce in Labrador West. MR. TULK: Do you not know the real reason he is down there? 1912

April 5, 1984 Tape No . 713 NM - 3 MR . NEAR Y: And I have no doubt the reason he is not in the Bouse today that he is pro bably down ice fishing in Churchill Falls, down at McParland Rouse probably. Now, Mr . Chairman, we know that the MBA for Menihek (Mr. Walsh) has filed his nomination papers for the riding of Grand Falls-~hite Bay. 1913

April 5, 1984 Tape 714 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: Now, Mr. Chairman, if the Premier were here - unfortunately he is not and that is not my fault - I would ask him to immediately ask the MEA for Menihek (Mr. Walsh) to submit his resignation as a member of the House of Assembly, because you cannot serve two masters. Mr. Chairman, is it unreasonable of us to say that the han. gentleman is only now thinking about federal politics and not interested in the pro­ vincial matters that affect the people in his constituency? Mr.

Chairman, I do not wish to belabour that but, again, I have to say that it does not make any difference, night or day - and the Premier, by the way, tries to leave the impression that going out on these speaking engagements and having his picture taken is a very arduous task1 he gets tired. He has to take off half-a-dozen times a year to get his batteries recharged. Now, is that what he calls work?

It is down in his office he should be, wrestling with the problems that are facing the people of this Province,~nd here in this House debating these matters so that the press can report to the people what their leader, what their Premier is saying, what he is going to do about the many problems that are confronting the ordinary people of this Province. He is getting too stuck-up and too swelled-headed and too big for his britches, that is the trouble, Mr. Chairman! He will go down in history as one of the laziest Premiers we have ever had in th±s Province.

And God only knows that Frank Moores was bad enough, but at least Moores got a few thin~s done in his day. This crowd there opposite now got nothing done, nothing! 1914

April 5, 1984 Tape 714 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: Now, Mr. Chairman, let me ask the han. the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) a couple of questions about the Consolidated Revenue Fund. First of all, let me deal with the Lieutenant-Governor's Warrant "that the han. gentleman tabled the other day, the Lieutenant-Governor's Warrant just issued prior to the end of the fiscal year. It say~'Under Subsection 2 of

Section 28 of the Financial Administration Act (1973) that Treasury Board hereby recommends that a special warrant be prepared for signature of His Honour in the amount of $200,000, being the sum required for the purpose referred to in the report of the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands.' And according to the subdivision number and title, this $200,000 was required to pay for professional services, industry development.

We are told in the warrant that the sum was urgently required to enable the government to provide additional funds for the purpose of paying the costs of ·the services of Woods Gordon and McLeod, Young, Weir with respect to pulp and paper production in this Province. Now, would the han. gentleman tell us what that is all about, that $200,000 that was paid out to Woods Gordon and McLeod, Young, Weir? What was it for? That is the first we heard of it! What was the report done on? Why are they studying the pulp and paper production in this Province? What is the reason behind it?

Can the han. gentleman give us a few details about that $200,000? And when the han. gentleman is on his feet,also . let him give the House a few details about the $137,000 guarantee for Messrs. Gerald Ryder and Walter Street, who defaulted on 1915

April 5, 1984 Tape 715 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: on the guarantee and the taxpayers had to pick up the principal and the interest and make payments to the bank of $156,685.73. What is all of that about? The hon. gentleman mentioned something the other day about a fishing boat. What kind of a fishing boat? And why was it not done through the Fishery Loan Baord? And what protection did the taxpayer have for lashing out this money? And why was there not a first mortgage or a second mortgage on the asset? And what happened to the boat?

Now that the gentlemen in question reneqed on the interest and on the principal 1 did -- -- -- the minister seize the assets of the company; If so, what : were the assets? Where are they? Mr. Chairman, there are so many questions that have to be answered about this list that was tabled by the hen. gentleman the other day. So I will take my seat and sit back and look forward to hearing ...... . .. the hon. gentleman giving . us the details of these two very important questions that I put to the hon. minister. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS! Mr.

Chairman, I will respond to the hon. Leader of the Opposition's (Mr. Neary) question in just a moment, but I would just like to revert back to a point we made , I believe, when the Committee was sitting pn this particular matter a little while ago. And you remember the question came up about the power contract in regard to the Upper Churchill. And the hon. Leader of the Opposition said that the government of the day had no knowledge of it.

The Premier of the day had absolutely no knowledge of the power contract and therefore could be held blameless for any of the manifest faults that are in that power contract and the fact that the power contract does not take into consideration the 1916

April 5, 1984 Tape 715 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: water rights agreement between BRINCO and the Province. Now, Mr. Chairman, of course, I am not bringing any news to the Committee when I say that no one in the Province believes that and there is good grounds for not believing it. If one wants to get it in printed form, there is a book that was put out called BRINCO: The Story of Chqrchill Falls and it was written by Philip Smith.

It goes into great detail of what happened to the Upper Ch~rchill right from the time the waterfall up there was first discovered right up to ~time that the thing carne on stream, including all of the manifest negotiations that went on, who was involved, how the governments related to it. And in this it shows that Mr. Smallwood was up to his elbow, shall I say, in every aspect of the negotiations. Perhaps I could read one little part from it. This was where Mr. Duncan, one of the gentleren involved, was talking to Mr. Lessard "He was, Duncan said, going to see Premier Smallwood the next day.

Did Lessard agree with this suggestion and could he tell Smallwood so?" And he went on there. "Duncan, Borden and McParland flew to St. John's on January 12 .. For some time now Joey had not been able to understand what was holding things up. After all, he had agreee to the five year settlement months before and had been led to believe; that all other aspects of the deals were satisfactory. Duncan now explained the letter of intent withholds the idea and said that once the hurdles represented by the signature of the latter were surmounted the various holds could easily be plugged in further talks.

Joey approved the ·Plan of campaign, but once again warned his visitors that'if we have to nationalize, we will.' " That was 1917

April 5, 1984, Tape 716, Page 1 -- apb DR. COLLINS: just one part where it was quite clear that Mr. Smallwood was involved right up to his eyeballs in it. MR. NEARY: MR. CHAIRMAN(Aylward): Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: A point of order, Mr. Chairman. A point of order, the han. the Mr.

Chairman, we do not mind at all the han. gentleman reading or quoting from the book,as he said he was going to read from the book, but Your Honour knows that under the Standing Rules of this House if you quote from a document of any kind it has to be tabled, I ask Your Honour to inform the House that the han. gentleman will be instructed to lay the book on the table of the House. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, to that point of order. MR. CHAIRMAN: To that point of order, the han. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Perhaps I could assist the Committee.

I have absolutely no objection to laying this book on the table of the House. As a matter of fact, the table of the House owns this book. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) has suggested that he will table the book. The han. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, in another

section of the book here again dealing with this matter, this is on page 224, 'Joey flew to Montreal secretly on June 7, and Lesage and Lessard joined him in the hotel room. "Apparently we agreed on everything;• Joey noted in his diary later. The same evening Jack Pickersgill drafted a letter for him which he delivered to Lester Pearson the next day·. "The Premier of Quebec and I" -this is Joey's letter that he signed - "The Premier of Quebec and I had a long discussion on this great project today" the letter 1918

April 5, 1984, Tape 716, Page 2 -- apb DR. COLLINS: said, "and we found our- selves in complete agreement on all points." MR. NEARY: What were the points? DR.

COLLINS: "They had reached an under- standing on development of the five Southward flowing rivers and made still other co-operative arrangements for the development of the area, which would be of great advantage to both the Province and the whole of canada. 'In the same letter Joey renewed his request to the Prime .Minister that the federal government should withdraw from the taxation, pr?duction, and distribution of electric power in favour of the Province 1 thus ,_removing the last obstacle to the immediate start of the construction work." So it was quite clear that Mr. Smallwood was involved in this.

Every word, every jot, every tittle, every move that was made, Mr. Smallwood was into it and knew everything about it and approved it. The various gentlemen who were negotiating on the part of BRINCO, they did not move without going to Mr. Smallwood _because they knew if they did Mr. Smallwood would go into a rage,and he would get into a frantic uproar, and he would disrupt all the painstaking arrangements that had taken place over the previous months and so on and so forth.

It is very instructive reading, and I would recommend to all members of the House to read this book just to see the extent to which the government of that day was involved in the Upper Churchill and to realize at the same time the absolute lack of protection of the interests of the people of this Province that was gained thereby. It is an absolute revelation! I think it should be made required reading in all the schools throughout the Province. Perhaps the hon. the Hinister of Education {}1s. Verge) would take up my suggestion. I would suggest that it is probably a much more valuable book 1919

April 5, 1984, Tape 716, Page 3 -- apb DR. COLLINS: than some of the book now being placed in the schools of the Province. It certainly would put a perspective on some other books that are going into the schools of the Province. Now, Mr. Chairman, just turning to the matters that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition{Mr. Neary) brought up here today , he wanted some information on the $200,000 that were being expended in regard to the Department of Forest Resources and Lands.

That $200,000 was made up of $190,000 which was paid to Woods Gordon for consultant services to the government in its efforts to attract a buyer for the Waterford mill. MR. NEARY: For what mill? DR. COLLINS: The Waterford mill is in great difficulty on the West Coast. It is a matter of absolute prime importance to the Province. We know that unless something is put in place very quickly and very efficiently it may be that that mill would close down and a lot of people will be thrown out of work.

And if it ever did close down for any period of time it would be very difficult to r~start it again, and so on and so forth. So quite rightly the Province has - MR. NEARY: What mill are you talking about? DR. COLLINS: - asked the co- operation of Bowater in an effort to make sure that the least damage possible is done to the work force of this Province, and to the woods industry ·of this Province, and in doing this wehad to get outside expertise and one of the outside expertise is Woods Gordon, for which we paid $190,000. MR. NEARY: What mill did they look at, Bowater? DR. COLLINS: Bowater. MR. NEARY: DR.

COLLINS : What did they do for $200,000? Oh, Woods Gordon carried out financial investigations, they went back over the records 1920

April 5, 1984 . Tape 716, Page 4 -- apb DR . COLLINS: so that they could make sure that the Province knew what the problem was out there, so the Province would be in a position to assess any offer that came in and so on and so forth . The other $10,000 was paid to McLeod, Young, Weir, also for financial consultant work in regard to the divestiture effort over the mill. 1921

April 5, 1984 Tape No. 717 SD - l DR. COLLINS: On the question of the two gentlemen, Ryder and Street, $137,000, I thought I had explained that the other day. MR. NEARY: No, you did not. DR. COLLINS: The fishermen of this Province, the worthy fishermen of this Province, you know, the people whose forebearers have been fishing in this Province for centuries and who are the backbone of the economic activity in this Province, these individuals, 0f course, nowadays face enormous capital costs· in carrying out their chosen profession.

To buy a vessel these days even, you know, a longliner of a fairly basic nature,is hundreds of thousands of dollars and fishermen, obviously, do hot have that sort of capital readily available. Government has set up two mechanisms to assist them. They have set up the Fisheries Loan Board which, at one time, handled al+ the assistance of a capital nature that was given to fishermen but now primarily · deals · with amounts up to about $50,000.

The oth .er mechanism that government has set up is an agreement with the banks, as · a group, whereby they will extend assistance, loans · and so on, to fishermen requiring larger boats, larger vessels that are more costly. And, of course, government has · to stand behind these agreements between the fishermen and the banks in terms · of guarantees. -"'""-- -·--- I had a list the other day, I am afraid I do not have it with me now 1 but I had a list the other day that showed, at a rough guess, perhaps eighty names on it. And we have had a number of defaults on that, a very small number.

If my memory serves me, it is about four since this arrangement was made in regard to the banks. It pas been a very successful programme, very few defaults. But one partnership, if you want to call it that, or an association between two individuals that did not succeed was this particular one and these gentlemen could not 1922

April 5, 1984 Tape No. 717 SD - 2 DR. COLLINS: prosecute the fisheries sufficiently profitably to keep up their payments to the bank. And when that happened, of course, the bank called our guarantee, we had to honour the guarantee. In place of it, of course, we had security in place when we put the guarantee on, we then took into cwr possession the vessel itself. That was the security. MR. CHAIRMAN (.Aylward) : Order, please! The han. minister's time has elapsed. The hen. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: So now, Mr. Chairman, we have discovered for the first time in this hen. ffouse - DR.

COLLINS: I' said it all the other day. MR. NEARY: No, the hon. gentleman did not say it all the other day. We are finding out now for the first time that there are two programmes in this Province to help fishermen purchas ·e boats. DR. COLLINS: Or lease them. MR. NEARY: Purchase or lease boats. We now have two ·programmes. Let the word go out today,because I do not t~nk it had been known before by fishermen in this Province,that there are two avenues open ,to them for purchasing or leasing boats that cost over $50,000.

If they · are under $50.,.aao., the minister is telling us th.e policy of the administration there opposite is that you go to the Fisheries Loan Board,for boats under $50,000, but if they are over $50,000 you come to the government for a loan or a guarantee and th .e administration will go on the back of a note and th .ey will guarantee - -- - HR. CARTER: (Inaudible) HR. NEA...'W: Mr. Chairman, I would like for Your Honour to enforce the rules of the House. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! 1923

------- April 5, 1984 Tape No . 717 SD - 3 MR. NEARY : I think there has to be a ruling, by the way , on very serious unparliamentary statements that were made by the hon . gentleman yesterday. so that will be twice in a week that he will be ru.led out of order. Now, Mr. Chairman, the hon . gentleman now tells us that there are seventy or eighty names 1924

April 5, 1984 Tape No. 718 )'f_J - 1 MR. NEARY: on the list of those who received guarantees to buy, purchase or lease boats over $50,000 but the only two fishermen who defaulted so far were Messrs. : Ryder and Street. Now, Mr. Chairman, I believe the minister should table the complete list. And the han. gentleman should also tell the House what forms of guarantees they take from these individuals. no they have a first or second mortgage? D!-!.. COLLETS: Usually the boat. MR. NEARY: Usually the purchase of the boat is the collateral.

They do not have to put up any collateral other than the boat itself, the physical asset itself, Mr. Chairman. DR. COLLINS: They make a percentage ' investment also. MR. NEARY: What is the percentage of the investment? DR. COLLINS: Usually around 10 per cent. MR. NEARY: So in this case $13,000 <t1as put in by the two men themselves. Now, Mr. Speaker, is this programme widelv advertised by the administration there opposite? D~. COI.LP!S :- Yes. MR. NEARY: It is widely advertised that fishermen can come - DR.

COLLINS: They make an approach to the Fisheries Loan Board and the Fisheries Loan Board present their programme and what is available on the bank side of things and the bank and the Fisheries Loan Board work very closely together on these things. MR. NEARY: So they go to the Fisheries Loan Board and if the amount is over $50,000 the Fisheries Loan Board will say, 'Look, we cannot handle this because 1925

April 5, 1984 Tape No. 7l8 MJ ~ 2 MR. NEARY: it is not within our terms of reference, so your best bet is to go' -where?- go to the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins)? DR. COLLINS: MR. NEARY: DR. COLLINS: MR. NEARY: deal with the f±shermen. DRV COLLINS: involved. MR. NEARY: No. Go where? Go to the bank. And then the bank . will wheel and With the Fisheries Loan Board How does the government get involved? How does the Minister of Finance get involved? DR.

COLLINS: When a satisfactory agreement is put in place, satisfactory to all concerned, then it is brought to us and if we agree with it we then put a guarantee on it. MR. NEARY: So if the bank and the fishermen come to a satisfactory agreement,then they go back to the Fisheries Loan Board and the Fisheries Loan Board then arranges through the Department of Finance a guarantee at the bank. DR. COLLINS: That is essentially it, Yes. MR. NEARY: Basically that is it. _And there is no collateral, no mortgages, nothing? DR. COLLINS: MR. NEARY: boat. No, no. You take a first mortgage on the DR.

COLLINS: Yes, the bank and the government take the mortgage. So if we have to honour the guarantee the mortgage reverts to us. MR. NEARY: So then in this case the government ended up with a boat. Now, how big t..ras the boat? •. ., ... _n_t kind of a boat was she? Was she a longliner, inshore dragger, 1926

April 5, 1984 MR. NEARY: of a boat was it? DR. COLLINS: ···-·· --- Tape No. 718 MJ - 3 offshore dragger? What kind I do not want to mislead the House but I am pretty certain it was a longliner t"pe. I am not really into the details of that. MR. NEARY: Well,the hon. gentleman must have the information there with him. DR. COLLINS: No. MR. NEARY: A long!Liner type. Well, ~-rhere is the boat now,and will the taxpayer recover any of their investment in th±s boat? Has the boat been resold? '·?ill it be put up on tender? r-'ill it be auctioned off? r·rhat will happen to the boat now,and where is the boat?

Is it in the custody of - DR. COLLINS: It is available. MR. NEARY: Pardon? DR. COLLINS: It is available for anyone else who wants to make a suitahle (immdible). MR. NEARY: DR. COLLINS: details. MR. NEARY: Has it been advertised yet? Again, I do not have all these Weililrwhe~e is the boat? Is it in onshore? Is it in the water? Has it been put up on tender,or auctioned,or advertised for sale? ~fuere is the boat? DR. COLLINS: r.·7ould you like to ask the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) for these details, hecc.uRe a:ui te frankly I am not too sure? MR. NEARY: Sure. I do not care who answers the question.

Could we get the minister in the Hbuse to ans~.rer these questions. !~:!'.. ':C'HP.TG: Here he comes~ r.1R. NEARY: Here he comes. Voices in the wind. 1927

April 5, 1984 Tape No. 718 MR. NEA...'R.Y: But, anyway, Mr. Chairman, I will wait until the han. gentleman comes in the House. I have a few more questions yet, 1928 MJ - 4

April 5, 1984 Tape No. 719 NM - l MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, the hon. Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) now is down - they are developing a policy there now. This is a new policy. What I am asking the Minister of Finance is, there are two programmes in place now, the Fisheries Loan Board can loan fishermen up to $50,000 to purchase or lease boats, if it is over $50,000, so we are· told by the Minister of Finance, the fisherman is told to go to the bank, the bank will negotiate with the fishermen an agreement and then get in touch with the Fisheries Loan Board - DR. COLLINS: involved. MR.

NEARY: The Fisheries Loan Board is - and the Fisheries Loan Board will arrange a guarantee for the fishermen of anything over $50,000 to lease or purchase boats. We are told that is the procedure. Now,in this case we have a boat- and the only collateral,by the way,is the boat itself, the fisherman has to put 10 per cent into the purchase of the boat. But now in this case we have a boat, Hessrs. Ryder and Street, what kind of a boat is it? Where is the boat? What is the present status of that boat? will it be auctioned off? Will public tenders be called? Or will it · be sold?

And the Minister of Finance says that the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) has the answers. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Chairman, I am not sure I can get down to the exact footage, or the exact inch with regard to the size of the boat,but to answer it in a sincere way, the 1929

April 5, 1984 Tape No. 719 NM - 2 MR. MORGAN: fishermen who are having their boats repossesed, and right now there is a total of thirteen, I recall telling the Estimates Committee a couple of days ago, thirteen boats MR. NEARY: MR. MORGAN: are being repossessed. Under this programme. Well 1 most of the boats are over $50,000 but the bank programme only came into place a few ~ears ago. so some of the repossessions are dealing with the old programme. MR. NEARY: The old programme. Okay. MR.

MORGAN: But when the fishermen are told to go to the bank to deal with the bank programme the interest subsidy still comes into play, in other words~ 3 per cent below the bank's prime rate,so that fishermen still qualify for that. And the bank does not decide the criteria. The bank will dea1 with the application on the criteria set down by the loan board. Really the banks are agents of the loan board.

They will take the applicant into their office, they go over the application in full' detail, but sitting next to them are our guidelines, the Department of Fisheries Loan Board guidelines and regulations which the bank must use in scrutinizing the application, and making a decision to refer back to st. John's: it comes from the bank then into the loan board,· and the loan board would have the final say, not the bank. And the loan board will also have some final say with regard to any repossessions. The hon. gentleman referred to these names as one boat owner I recall.

I happen to know these gentlemen, they are in Bonavista,and these gentlemen 1930

April 5, 1984 Tape No. 719 NM- 3 MR. MORGAN: had a problem with their boat where the loan board had no choice but to take action to repossess because they could not meet their payments. Their problem was caused by a combination of factors: The engine was too small for the boat, they got -a larger \ engine to go in the boat and then they got a poor season, and then they just sort of abandoned the operation altogether. Now without going into individual details, individual accounts, we try to be fair with fishermen if there are circumstances beyond their control with regard to making their payments.

If they cannot -make the payments because it is beyond their control, a bad fishing season, or a poor fishing season, bad weather conditions, etc., we are not going to just move in, or the banks will not be allowed to move in either,through our programme, to take over fishermen's boats and seize them from him and not let him carry on and try to make a go of it.

So all of the thirteen boats - I am not sure at this time,but I will get the information for the han. gentleman and supply it to him, whether or not these gentlemen they are referring to, that boat owned by those two fellows, two fishermen in Bonavista, that that is one of the thirteen now advertised. There are thirteen vessels now advertised in the local media, public tender, and we try to keep the boats within the fishery. MR. NEARY: But the minister told us these ~ the only fishermen who have defaulted under this programme yet. MR. MORGAN: No. No. MR.

NEARY: Well 1 they are the only ones listed on your list. 1931

April 5, 1984 f.1R . MORGAN: DR. COLLINS : information. MR . MORGAN : Tape No . 719 NM - 4 we have only had a thirteen - That is on that particular Because what we try to do, for example, if fishermen cannot make their payments, we try to sit down with them, through the loan board, 1932

April 5, 1984 Tape 720 EC - 1 MR. MORGAN: and work out a satisfactory arrangement like, for example, assignment of catch: So much of their catch can be assigned to the Loan Board through the company they are selling to, to go towards payment on their boat. That kind of arrangement we can work out with them, or other arrangements, to try to keep them in the fishery. Only as a last resort will a boat be repossessed and pub-lic tendered. MR. NEARY: for $137,000? MR. MORGAN: Where is the boat that was bought Mr.

Chairman, I do not know where that boat is or where the other thirteen or fourteen boats are at the present time, but if they are being tendered, I would assume the boat is at a near location where the - MR. NEARY: boat? MR. MORGAN: Well, what is the name of the Mr. Chairman, I mean, I just cannot stand here and name - I can get all the information, and the information, in fact, I could make a point of tabling in the House.

There is no problem with informa­ tion with regard to all boats repossessed in the last fiscal year, the names of the boats and the names of the owners, the locations of the boats, I can do all that. That is no problem because it is information that should be made public, as far as we are concerned. There is nothing wrong with giving information.

But I am saying that the boat was repossessed from these gentlemen in my own district, the same as other boats are being possessed in other districts around the Province from people only as a last resort; they just could not make a go of it and they gave up on the whole thing and abandoned it and we take the boats, sometimes by working out with 1933

April 5, 1984 Tape 720 EC - 2 MR. MORGAN: the fishermen a satisfactory arrangement. I am working on a situation now which the hon. gentleman brought to my attention yesterday, over in his own riding. And we are being very sincere in contacting the person who has more or less abandoned the vessel, it is over in the area of Port aux Basques. The owner does not live there. His vessel is over there. He is abandoning it.

And we are going to him and saying, 'Look, if you are going to abandon it, do not let it sit there and tie it up legally to become a derelict vessel, let us work out something for someone who wants to buy it.' And that is what we are trying to do in all cases rather than have the vessel damaged and in a bad state of repair and left there for a year or so, and then no­ body can use it afterwards. So we are trying to work out arrangements when we have defaults on these loans to keep the loans in good condition and keep the vessels, if at all possible, in the fishery.

That is the main thing, keep the vessels in the fishery. And if we call tenders and no fisherman bids, then we have no choice but to go to public tender and anybody - I do not know about members of the House - but anybody around from the general public can bid on these vessels, and if they bid high enough and to the satisfaction of the board and of the bank, they can take the vessel and use it for pleasure craft if they want to: but again, that is a last resort. The idea is to keep the boats in the fishing industry. MR. NEARY: Mr • Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : Opposition. MR.

NEARY: The hon. the Leader of the Mr. Chairman, I thank the hon. gentleman for the information. At least the hen. gentleman knows what we are talking about a little more than the 1934

April 5, 1984 MR. NEARY: (Dr. Call ins) . Tape 720 EC - 3 Minister of Finance Now, I wonder if the Minister of Finance will table the list of all the guarantees given to individual fishermen, table the list of those who got a guara~tee over $50,000 under this programme that we are talking about? Would the han. gentleman undertake to do that? DR~ COLLINS: No problem. MR. NEARY: No problem. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : The han. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: Mr.

Chairman, on that point, I cannot foresee any problem of us supplying it - and I say this sincerely, if the han. gentleman wants the list for his office - MR. NEARY: That is all, yes. MR. MORGAN: - we can do that, rather than have it filed and go to the media and have the names bandied around in the media. As a member of the House, he is entitled to the information.

We can get the information supplied to his office, to him directly, rather than have the names of the fishermen concerned bandied around, because they could establish credit again with some of the banks or something, and if their names are out in public as being bad fellows in dealing with the Loan Board or the bank, that may hurt them. So rather than do that, we can do it the way just mentioned. MR. NEARY: MR. CHAIRMAN: Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman. The han. the Leader of the That is fine with me, Mr. Chairman. 1935

April 5, 1984 Tape 120 EC - 4 MR. NEARY: Now, we can dispense with that matter. I am going to come to another item on the hon. gentleman's list ,. I want to talk a few moments about Cape Pj,ne Fisheries Limited. MR. TULK: He iR . stnrtin g to leave . e is oing to take hi s mar~les and go horne! MR. NEARY : My hon~ friend, our spokesman on Fish eries (Mr . Tulk), should listen to this. MR. TULK: Oh, yes! MR. NEARY: Cape Pine Fisheries Limited - the principal amount guaranteed was $1,275,000. MR . TULK: One million what? MR. NEARY: $1,275,000. And the principal and interest payments made during the period were $17,659. Now, Mr . Chairman, I want to ask one or other of the ministers - 1936

April 5, 1984 Tape 721 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: This is the Quick Freeze plant we are talking about here that was turned over to a private operator. Now let me ask either one of the ministers what the operator paid for that facility? And is this the only guarantee or loan that was given to the operator? And if my calculation is correct, Mr. Chairman, and I bel;eve it is,the only amount invested by this operator so far is $17,659.04. L~ other words, the plant is a gift. The Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) cannot deny that. Tnat plant is an outright gift.

First it was given to an operator, then he was given the money to buy it, then he was given money to operate it, na~he has this facility and so far has paid $17,659 interest. Am I right in my assessment? And if I am not right,can han. gentlemen set the record straight, tell us the history of the plant since the government took it over? I am completely ignorant of this matter. I want the history of the plant since .th~ government took it over. They turned it over to an operator, and then they gave the operator the money to buy the plant, a~n then they gave him operating costs. !'~~. ':'UL :!\ : They did what?

Repeat that for t~e !!ouse. MR. NEARY: Well first,they said,we have to find a private operator. So they called in an operator. I do not know if they invited proposals or if it was just the laying on of hands. They called in an operator and they said 1here is a plant and we want to get it started up because there is an election coming, - AN HON. MEMBER: Oh! MR. NEARY: - and we cannot have this plant closed. Will you please take it and operate it for us and employ these ~la~t ~·!Orkers? or we are going to be in trouble in this district in the election. So to t!1e !ci~ister o£ :o/i~ance 1937

April 5, 1984 Tape 721 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: (Dr. Collins) or the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) they said, Okay, we will make you an offer . And the offer they made was give us the plant - AN HON. MEMBER: ~au mean as a gift? MR. NEARY: - and we will pay you this amount of money for it, I believe it was $2.5 million or something. Then they carne back and they said give us the operating expenses , which they received. MR. TULK: H~w much was that? MR. NEARY: Well,we know there is one guarantee here of $1,275,000 of which they only paid back $17,000. Now, Mr.

Chairman, I do not want to jump to conclusions, that is one thing I do not want to do, I want to get the facts. I never do jump to conclusions. I am in the dark on this one. And I am asking the minister just to set the record straight as far as Cape Pine Fisheries Limited is concerned,start right back to when Quick Freeze pulled out and left the plants high and dry. The government had to pay Quick Freeze for the plants - MR. TULK: You are asking the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) for that are you? MR. NEARY: Well,one of the ministers.

The government had to pay Newfoundland Quick Freeze so much for their plants, then they found a private operator. How much did the operator pay for that plant? How much was given to him in loans and guarantees? And how much has he paid back so far? Fair questions, Mr. Chairman, and I will take my seat and anxiously wait for the answers. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward): The hon. Minister of Fisheries. 1938

April 5, 1984 Tape 721 PK - 3 MR. MORGAN: Mr. Chairman, I have a few comments. I have to leave shortly to catch a flight, but my colleague, the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins), I am sure will take over from there and supply more information. MR. TULK: MR. MORGAN: MR. TULK: MR. MORGAN: MR. TULK: MR. MORGAN: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. MORGAN: How long will you be gone? I will be gone until Sunday. What place? New Brunswick. You will not be here tomorrow? No, no questions on fisheries tomorrow. Will you be singing? The hon. gentleman is right.

A certain part of what he had to say is right, but the full facts are not there. Well, Newfoundland Quick Freeze did not go into receivership, they did not go bankrupt but they went into voluntary liquidation, if I recall - that was the term they used, voluntary liquidation, which is a fancy word for bankruptcy really - and they closed up all of their operations in the Province. And Rich Seapack of the u.s. was the major. shareholder in Newfoundland Quick Freeze, it was really a subsidary of that American company.

In this case Rich Seapack which produce the Rich creams etc. for coffee and these kinds of things in the U.S. It is a big business, a big conglome~ate. Anyway, they had the plants and they wanted to get out, so they went into voluntary liquidation. And we called for proposals, for someone to take over those plants because it would have been a loss of approximately, if I recall, around 2,000 jobs in these plants, or 1,000. So we called for proposals at the time, I recall, by making it through 1939

"'- -~- April 5, 1984 Tape No. 722 SD - 1 MR. MORGAN: publicly known through the media ~"e were asking proposals from all fish companies. We made it known to all the companies in conversation with them. And proposals carne in from 'a number of companies and took up different sections of the Quick Freeze'·operations. In this case the O'Briens in Bay Bulls, who are connected with the Bay Bulls Sea Products, put a bid in on Witless Bay; somebody else put a bid in on the Branch operations, in this case Blue Ocean; somebody else put a bid in on St.

Bride's; somebody else put a bid in on the Dildo operations; so it is all broken down. We arranged meetings with the O'Briens 1 in this case in connection with the Witless Bay plant now called Cape Pine Fisheries, they formed a new company and put a b:j_d_ir;, to take over the plant.

And the money that they owed to Ri_ch ,Seapack for the purchase of the plant - now I do not know the exact purchase price-- I forget those figures there were so many people involved, so many parties involved- but the exact figure ~~_th~t purchase price 1 they made an arrangement with __ Rich __ Sea2a_ck that they would ~o __ sorne financing 1 Rich Seal)ack would, on the purchase by Cape Pine of that plant. And what happened was in about a year or I':laybe less than a vear, the company, Cape_ ~~.:: _:iefaulted, they defaulted in their payments to~ich Seapack.

That means we had to move in to ensure that the plant would be kept going. And when we moved in to look at them, we moved in with regards to a proposal from the company for SQ!l!§! E-_ssist_ance, they could not make - their payments to Rich Seapack, so we then arranged to provide financing to that company on their purchase price. There were no qrant involved, there were outriGht direct loans, There were no outright grants just direct loans and that loan was to the company for the asset which we mortgaged._ We are mortgaging th.e asset,. in other words, 1940

April 5, 1984 Tape No. 722 SD - 2 MR. MORGAN: we have security on the assets that they are purchasing and we have adequate security because we are the only creditor in this case, I understand, on these ·--"' -- --- - '-··-- assets. So we hold the assets as first mortgage, or first -- - ~ r.., ., ___ - ---- security, and the purchase - maybe my colleague can supply that information, I cannot at this time. And then any interest they owed we are not letting them off with saying, Yes, we forgive your interest' ,we are not letting them off saying, 'Yes, forget your payments'.

They owe the money to government and government is ?rettv adamant and determined that they are going to pay the .money·owinq on that facility. There are no gifts to them. And the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins} and myself in recent weeks,after analyzing the account, the Minister of ·Finance indeed instructed the company that they are at a point where they must come forward with paym~~ts on this plant.

And he is determined to see that they do, if they can at all, and he has arranged, and I can say this for him, he has arranged to have the books of the company, all information, all financial information supplied to government to be analyzed and assessed·to determine if they can indeed make any payments. If they cannot make their interest payments it is automatically added on to the overall cost which will mean additional cos·t to th .e company Cape Pine Fisheries ·. Now it is a bit of an exception, I guess, because it is a direct loan ·. '::':1e other loan guarantees are exactly as I say, loan guarantees.

We have assis ·ted a number of companies, We have made direct loans · to other companies as well, when they found themselves in unfortunate difficulties. Now,if we did not do that 1we would be accused as a government of ignoring the fisfl .ery, ignoring the fishery operations, ignoring the plants and we would find ourselves in a situation of losing jobs 1 having plants · 1941

April 5, 1984, Tape 723, Page l -- apb MR. MORGAN: close down and nobody around to operate.

So our obligation as a government is surely to keep the jobs in our resource industry and if we can justify, and I say .justify, through our criteria we set down, looking at the need, looking at the management of the company, looking at the need for their funds and their management, looking at the fact that we set down conditions that they must make reports to us on a regular basis, financial reports on the condition of their company, they must do other t~ings with regard to ensuring they market their product properly and produce quality products and these kinds of things, if these companies meet our criteria and our conditions, well, why should we not qive assistance to these independent companies?

The argument I am hearing from the rest of Atlantic Canada right now is that the Government.of Canada and the Government of Nova Scotia are putting large chunks of money into large companies like National Sea and ignoring the independent companies.

So we are . looking after those medium sized independent fish companies in a way. which we feel is quite responsible and if it comes.to a point because of difficult market conditions - Witless Bay was manufacturing crab last year and anybody who unc" .e~3tanr.s Trhc>.t is :l?.T'':'en:l.!l':f to the crab market they should.understand why the company is having difficult times. The price of crab dropped from seven dollars down to five dollars within the past year. There are inventories left unsold and that company is, indeed, one of the companies holding inventory.

I met with all fifteen of them yesterday afternoon, all fifteen companies producing crab in the Province, and that company was represented at the meeting. They are all finding it difficult at this 1942

Arpil 5, 1984, Tape 723, Page 2 -- apb MR. MORGAN: time, and have during the past year. They have inventory to sell. If it moves in the next month and a half, well, that means revenue coming into the company and any obligations they have to government hopefully they will meet. ~~ere ~re no indications the company is ~rying to weasle away from honouring their responsibility. There is no indication of that, it ·is just the mere fact that they are going through some difficult times, as are other independent fish companies. So my position, Mr.

Chairman, in my closing comments, I have to leave to catch a flight, is that there is nothing strange or weird about the company mentioned, nothing strange and weird about Port Enterprises in Southern Harbour we assisted last week, or Smith Seafoods out in Bellevue we assisted last week, and I can go on around the Province, all these independent fish companies, except that in this case it is a direct loan more so than a loan guarantee.

But the Minister of Finance (Dr. coll~ns) and this administration are determined to see that any obligations of the private sector,as a result of our financing put forward, are met if the companies are financially able to do so •. If not, we have to sit down with them to assess the situation and to determine how we can always be protected as a government with regard to our exposure in financial output from government to the companies. So, Mr. Chairman, I hope that I have clarified the matter somewhat. And I have to say that my plane leaves in forty-five minutes and I have to leave. MR. TULK: MR.

CHAIRMAN(Aylward): ' MR. TULK: ~·r. Chairman. The hon. the member for Fogo. I wonder if the minister could perhaps take another two or three minutes. In relation to this company I will perhaps just ask a few simple questions. i943

April 5, 1984, Tape 723, Page 3 -- apb MR. TULK: It probably will not take him any longer than five or six minutes and he can be out of here. I want to ask him first of all, if you take that whole list, how many loans and guarantees were made last year? Ann are we looking at here the only people who paid back anything_ on their principal and interest? MR. NEARY: MR~ TULK: MR. NEARY: MR. TULK: defaulted? MR. NEARY: MR. TULK: They all defaulted. Those defaulted? Oh, they all defaulted. Those are the people who Yes.

All right, let me ask him then, in connection with Cape Pine Fisheries, if he will table how much is currently owed by Cape Pine Fisheries,and would he table any or all documents relating to the transaction carried out with this company? MR. NEARY: Right on! MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Chairman, I think that question regarding the financial information on the company - I was asked by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) to give some explanation as to what happened, .the history of the situation.

I think I gave at least, if not a detailed, a concise history of what happened in the area and what took place up there. As for the financial data, my colleague, the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins), will deal with that. But before I leave I would like to say that the fishing industry is a cyclical industry and you may have one or two bad years and then 1944

April 5, 1984 Tape No. 724 NM- 1 MR. MORGAN: four or five good years. And as long as we are ensured by the companies they are not ·:,taking advantage of government in any way, and we will ensure that by demanding which is a condition of our guarantees,that they give financial reports to us on a regular basis r and we are down to the point now with some of these companies of getting a monthly report from them showing _ us quite clearly what their financial stature indeed is and whether or not they can affo·rd to honour their obligations to government. Other than that,- Mr.

Chairman, I will leave the next line of questioning or information to my colleague. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : MR. TULK: The han. member for Fogo. Let me ask the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) a question. The Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) obviously has some doubts about tabling the information on Cape Pine Fisheries. Let me ask the Minister of Finance a question. Will he commit himself to giving this information to the Opposition privately? Will he give it to the Opposition without tabling it in ·the House?

Will he give us all of the transactions that have gone on and bring us up-to-date on just how much is owed currently? And perhaps when he stands he could also tell us just how well Cape Pine Fisheries are doing now. As I understand it, as the Minister of Finance knows, the other day in the House we raised a question here about a fish plant on the South Coast of this Province, the Southern Shore as it is called AN HON. MEMBER: Which one? 1945

April 5, 1984 Tape No. 724 NM - 2 MR. TULK: That is the same one. The minister has admitted that since publicly,in the press. We raised a question about this company having to cut the wages of their plant workers, calling them in and telling them they were going to cut their wages 80 cents an hour. That indicates to me that that company is still in some trouble, or otherwise they are trying to fleece their employees. And I do not believe they are trying to do that, I think they must be still in some financial trouble.

So could the minister perhaps stand and tell us just where that company is called Cape Pine Fisheries? How are they now financially? And how much is currently owed by this company? And would he table all of the transactions, or give us privately all of the transactions that have gone on between the government and that fish company. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : DR. COLLINS: The hon. Minister of Finance. Mr. Speaker, perhaps I should clarify one or two points there.

The Financial Administration Act requires that the information be tabled in this House whenever a government guarantee has to be honoured, in other words,whenever government has to pay out on a guarantee. And I do not know if hon. members of Committee remember,but I do that every so often, you know every six months or whenever the House sits, and I will table a short list of guarantees that have been paid out since the last list was placed on the table. Now,that is the requirement.

There is not a requirement under the Fiancial Administration Act, I am quite sure in saying this I think, that we actually lay out all the guarantees and certainly not all the details 1946

April 5, 1984 Tape No. 724 NM - 3 DR. COLLINS: of the guarantees that government gives. We have tci honour a guarantee, yes, we .do, because there is an expenditure of government money there. If we just give a guarantee there is no expenditure of public money up to that point in time and there is no obligation on us to lay that out.

However, my understanding is, and this does not directly involve the Department o.f Finance, my understanding is the Department of Fisheries and the Loan Board has made it a policy that if anyone wishes for anything like reasonable reasons to want to know which guarantees are given in terms of helping to finance fishing vessels,or fishing equipment,or that type of thing, the assistance to the inshore fishery essentially, that they will make that information available. Now,it is not tabled in the House but it is made available on the basis as,shall we say,a need to know type of thing. 1947

April 5, 1984 Tape No. 725 HJ - 1 DR. COLLINS: In regard to this Carye ~ine ?in~eri8s, I do not think there is any problem in having the han. members opposite in on the details of this. )ne caution I would make and that is that even though government is assisting these firms, they really are private firms and I think they have a right to some commercial privacy not just that it has to be a secret matter but,I mean,business has to be conducted very often not in the full glare of ' publicity and the press. I mean,that.±s not the way business works.

If you are a public company, yes, there are certain things required by -r.ornorrl .tio!"l " ".n~ rtll that sort of thing that you have to do. ~ut a private company, just because it gets assistance from a bank or some other backer or from government or whatever does not mean that they have to lay out all the details of their operations,which may or may not put them at risk in terms of the competition and their plans for the future and what proposals they got in mind which may or may not come off and so on and so forth.

I do not see any problem in making this information available to the ho:n. the members of the Opposition opposite except that I would · put a c;;~.veat in t~ere, t.".at i:!' t~.e:o:-e a:r:-e certain things that are ongoing which look <'-~'> t':J.Ou(!'! if they got out it would be to the · detriment of the operation of the company and accordingly to the e~ployment of the workers there in the company 1 and also result in detriment to the fishermen who are depending on that cornpan~ I do not think that anyone would want that to happen.

But other than that I am sure that the Department of Fisheries we would not have any objection really, anr. I am sure the iDepartment of Fisheries would not have any objection that the han. members opposite would have a briefing on just where things stand. Now in terms of the amounts owing by the company,I think the han. member asked that, I just 1948

April 5, 1984 Tape Uo . 725 }'_J - 2 DR. COLLINS: have to auote from memorv. ~ol"\et!-ti!lc:' over t2 ·::J'),')')') is t..'le ir current liah :i.lit" that they currently have to make up. It is not that they have defaulted on that yet, but that amount of liability is needed from them in the very near future .

If they make that up, well ,fin e. r~ they do not, suppose they did not make it up -and I should not be saying this because it is a bit hypothetical - if they did not make it up ,well ,\.,e would have to put that on to them, we would have to take over an obligation that they \·/Ou .ld have to their suppliers or whatever,and then we would have to translate that into an addition to the ir direct loan which they \<lOU~d have to pay back to us at some subsequent date. MR. TULK: Mr. Chairman . tffi. CHll.IRMA..~ (A,rl\ <lard) : The hon . the member for Fogo. ~~ - TULK: ~r.

Chairman, let me point out to the Mini ster of Finance (Dr . Collins) that indeed if a company is dealing with a priv ate bank, a commercia~ bank, that they do have a right to commercial privacy , if you \<lant, or. CO!'\"\erci-'\~ invi:;i.'">ilit" or '·''1?tener "OU :·r<>.nt to <::i'\ ll it . ~ut in this particular case what we ar ~ 1949

April 5,1984 Tape 726 PK-1 MR.TULK: dealing with here,millions of dollars in this case, what we are dealing with is the taxpayers' dollar, taxpayers' money. And surely the minister is not standing in this House to tell us that if a company in this Province gets money out of the public treasury, out of the public ~hest that they have a right to privacy. DR.COLLINS: No, no. I did not say that. I said if we pay out the money The Financial Administration Act says we have to table it. But a guarantee is not a pay-out of money.

MR.TULK: taxpayers dollars and - DR.COLLINS: MR.NEARY: DR.COLLINS: MR.TULK: But you are still guaranteeing There is no pay-out on these. They can call that. If they do. If they do, yes. -when those companies default, as they have in a great number of cases, then they do not have the kind of privacy, the commercial privacy that the minister is talking about. DR.COLLINS: Absolutely. Yes, when we pay out we have to make it a loan. MR.TULK: Let me ask the minister, taking Cape Pine Fisheries Limited as an example,is this the only amount that they are guaranteed? Is this all that ~se seven companies are guaranteed?

If you take the seven of them, are these all of the loans or guarantees that they have? As I understand there is a list that the minister has tabled. This is only the amount that they have defaulted on, the loans that they have defaulted on. DR. COLLINS: The second column is what they defaulted on. 1950

April 5, 1984 Tape 726 PK - 2 MR. TULK: The second column is ·what they owe, but they have defaulted on the,loans anq the guarantees that the government made. But the question is are there other loans and guarantees that the company has not yet defaulted on or have they now defaulted on them? Has that happened? And what is the total amount, for example, tnat Cape Pine Fisheries Limited is now owing the government?

And let me again ask him the question, in view of the fact that last week Cape Pine Fisheries,and perhaps some of the other ones-I do not know, but I know about Cape Pine Fisheries-Cape Pine Fisheries called in their employees and said,' v<e are going to cut your wages by eighty cents an hour.' Is that company still performing to the extent that it is going to be able to pay back its guarantee~ loand to the gover~ment? Are they performing in such a way that they are now doing that? Are they keeping · those things up to date? Or is that company about to fold is it still in serious trouble?

And I think we have to know that from the point of view of the fishing industry. I am sure the people on the Southern Shore want to know , down in the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (Mr. Power) district they want to know whether their plant is going to be there this year or Nhether suddenly the government is going to be forced to pull the legs out from underneath Cape Pine Fisheries, and so on? So could the minister tell us just where that company stands right now? MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman,as the hon. Minister of Fisheries (Mr.

Morgan) explained, when Newfoundland Quick Freeze decided in their own good wisdom to give up the operation down there 1we determined that unless someone was found to operate the plants down there that it would do tremendous 1951

April 5, 1984 Tape 726 PK - 3 DR. COLLINS: harm to that area. It was not a case where there were other plants around and if thi s plan~ - - -- ·- - --- -- - went it would not r-.atter, the fishermen could go elsewhere and so could the ~lant workers. In that particular area i-f -would --be of gr eat damage to the plant workers, to the community and to the fishermen unless this particular plant and plants were operated. And for that reason we became involved. Now I think that it is hypothetical to say what would we do if this particular company folded up, would we do the same thing again?

I think that is a bit hypothetical. All I can say is that we did it once and, you know,that is as far as I will go. And the second thing is that this company has not folded at this point in time. They are having difficulties,obviously,because otherwise we would not be paying out on some of the obligations that they have not been able to match. HR. snms: / lfle judge each case on .its own rrerits. DR. COLLINS: Judge each case on its own rrerits. I think it is a very good phrase. I think the minister has coined a new phrase there.

But the other point is that 'the plants there are essentially seasonal plants and I think the company is just now geariag up, I believe they are about to get into the capelin fishery. That is the first aspect of the fishery for this season. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : Order, please! DR. COLLINS: You know, I think it is a bit early in the season yet to say • t·1ost fishing companies , I am sure I do not have to tell hon. members this, most fishing companies are in a working capital deficit position in the early part of the season and probably for a good proportion of the 1952

April 5, 1984 Tape 726 PK - 4 DR. COLLINS: season. They have to pay their plant workers,they have to pay their fishermen before they actually get paid for the product that they ultimately sell. So they often are in a working deficit position. The banks usually have to come in and make loans at that stage of the game and they take the receivables and the inventory as secur it y,. Towards the end of t...l'J.e se ason when th e company has actually s~ld its product ,well then they can make up for these loans that they have had to contract in the meantime.

So I think it is bit early in the. season to say how Cape Pine is going to do this year . All I can say is they are still in operation. They are about, I believe, to begin the fishery this year . And until such time as they do fold, and I hope they do not , until such time as they do fold we will not have to make a decision on who is to replace them . 1953

April 5, 1984 Tape No. 727 SD - 1 ·DR. COLLINS: I do hope that we will be able to get them through this rough patch and not have to go for oth .er opera tors. And on that point, too 1 I think that, you knowi as I say every year there is · a problem area in the early part of the season when the companies go into debt.

But in addition to that 1 shall we say -,short cycle 1 there are years when the fishing industry and the companies are in difficulties, and they have to oe assisted throughout the year and then they get into a good period where the fishery .is · going well and that will make up for the years when it was bad. So as the !ton. Minister of Fisheries (Mr. MorganL mentioned 1 the fishing industry is cyclical during the year, almost every year, but it is als·o cyclical over a number of years and often they need assistance during the low years and they will make it up during the high years. MR. TULK: Mr. Chairman. MR.

CHAIRMAN (ll.ylwardl: The hon. member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Chairman, we hope on this side of the House,too 1that for the sake of the people on the s·outhern Shore and for the sake of the rest of the people in Newfoundland that there is not a single fish plant that will close this Summer. But the minister has not given us the information, t.he financial information, that i's required to tell us just how those fish companies are doing. Are they indeed now in a situation where they can perhaps· pay ' back s·ome of the funds owed to the government on those loans- and on the guarante .es?

That is the kind of question that ·the administration has to answer if they are going to be aole to tell the. Opposition and tell the people of this: Province. that indeed we are corning out of , as he calls it , one of those bad cycles .-in the fish .ery. Let me ask the . minister another question. Will he, first of ------~- - all, tell us the total amounts - and let us use ----- --------- -·-- -- 1954

April 5, 19.84 Tape No. 727 SD - 2 MR. TULK: Cape Pine Fisheries again- will he tell us · the total amount, the total number of loans and the total amounts of those loans that have been given out to those companies? In .particular Cape Pine Fisheries, because r am somewhat concerned about what happened with them the other day when they called in the~r employees and told them that they were going to cut their wages by eighty cents an hour? And let me ask him another question. Are they now asking for more funds?

Are they asking for more guarantees and more loans 1or does'the minister anticipate them coming back and asking for more loans? Let us look at the rest of the col!lpanies as t.11ell. o_:.: a~ Ha _~vesters ·, by the way I -p~ i~ ~~ ck before _ -t:-I:~L defaulted some $254,000 1 at least 10 per cent of their loan, - -- ·-- - . ·.....;: 1..rhich at lea?t ___ showed some viability:· DR •. COLLINS: No, no, perhaps I can explain. MR. TULK: Yes, the minister can explain in a minute ,.:Out let me as ·k him those two questions.

Will he tell -us· the total amount of their loans and can he guarantee th.i:s House that the fish.ing industry is now - - -· ---- - --- ------ in such an upsurge that they will not be back again, or is the fishing industry still in the condition where those people ai.'e going to be coming to th .e government looking for more loans ' and more guarantees ·? MR. CHAIRMAN · (}l. 'ylwardl.: Order, please! ' MR. TULK: At least, Mr. Chairman, I asked a question 'l'li th specifics. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! ' Before I introduce the han. ---,..-- mi ·nister, it being 5:00 p.m. I wish to inform the House that 1955

April 5, 19.84 Tape No. 727 SD - 3 MR. CHATRMAN (Aylwardl: we have two questions on for the Lat.e Show . One from the hon. member for Mount Scio (Mr. Barry) . to the Minister of Energy CMr. Marshall) concerning surplus power .i:n Quebec 1 and one from the hon. member £or St . John ''s North (Mr . Carter 1 to the hon. Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youtn (Mr . S±mms) concerning gifts given to the Province . 1956

April 5, 1984 Tape 728 EC - 1 MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward): The han • . the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, I think the han. member may just be misreading the tabled reports a little bit . The first column is the amount of loan or whatever it was, the bank loan that the comRany received, the amount that was guaranteed. For instance, X company made an arrangement Where they needed the $2 million. They went to the bank to get the $2 million but the bank said, 'No, we cannot give it to you unless you have a government guarantee.' MR. TULK: Yes. DR.

COLLINS: They came to us and we went over everything and said, 'Alright, it looks as though this is a viable situation.' MR. TULK: DR . COLLINS: You guaranteed it. 'We will give you a guarantee.' Now that is the amount that would be entered in that first column there. For instance, Ocean Harvesters Limited, $2.5 million. They needed to buy that ~ew vessel over there, that trawler they have over there. MR. TULK: Yes. DR . COLLINS: They had to raise the amount of $2.5 million and we gave them a guarantee for it.

Now, in the second column, that is the amount not of the ~uarantee, that is the amount of the payment they were unable to make and we had to make it in their place. For instance, Ocean Harvesters - MR. TULK: Is t