Manitoba Committee Hansard — 18 July 1991 (Management Commission Committee, Sitting 3, 35th Legislature, 2nd Session)

35-2-ma3

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 Second Session - Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba STANDING COMMITTEE on MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS 40 Elizabeth II Chairman Mrs. Louise Dacquay Constituency of Seine River VOL XL No.3 ·10 a.m., THURSDAY, JULY 18, 1991 Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer. Province of Manitoba ISSN 0713-956X

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature LIB - liberal; NO - New Democrat; PC - Progressive Conservative NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CARR, James CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CHEEMA, Guizar CHOMIAK, Dave CONNERY, Edward CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HARPER, Elijah HELWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LA THLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MciNTOSH, linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEUFELD, Harold, Hon. ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy WOWCHUK, Rosann CONSTITUENCY Osborne Thompson Wellington Crescentwood River Heights Radisson The Maples Kildonan Portage Ia Prairie Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Rupertsland Gimli Point Douglas Inkster The Pas St. Norbert Elmwood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Rossmere Pembina Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Ain Flon La Verendrye Fort Garry St. Johns Swan River PARTY.

LIB NO NO LIB LIB NO LIB NO PC PC PC PC NO NO PC PC PC LIB PC PC NO NO PC PC NO LIB PC NO PC NO LIB NO PC NO PC NO PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NO PC NO PC PC PC PC NO PC NO PC PC NO NO

92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA THE STANDING COMMITTEE ON MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS Thursday, July 18, 1991 TIME-10 a.m. LOCATION- Winnipeg, Manitoba CHAIRMAN - Mrs. Louise Dacquay (Seine River) ATIENDANCE - 8- QUORUM- 6 Members of the Committee present: Hon. Mr. Ernst Mr. Carr, Mrs. Dacquay, Ms. Friesen, Messrs. Maloway, McAlpine, Rose, Mrs.

Vodrey APPEARING: Gerald Ducharme, MLA for Riel WITNESSES: Lillian Thomas, Councillor, Elmwood Ward, City of Winnipeg Theresa Ducharme, PEP (People in Equal Participation) Paul Mo ist, Canadian Union of Public Employees, Local 500 Greg Mandzuk, Canadian Union of Public Employees, Local 500 Brett Lockhart, Private Citizen David Waytowich, Private Citizen Charlotte Hozumi, Private Citizen Patrick Daly, Private Citizen R. M. Goodman, Private Citizen Deborah Smith, Choices Julia Boon, Private Citizen George Marshall, Private Citizen MATTERS UNDER DISCUSSION: Bill 68, The City of Winnipeg Amendment Act

(2) Bill 35, The City of Winnipeg Amendment Act *** Madam Chairman : Will the co mmittee on Municipal Affairs please come to order to consider Bill 68. I would just like to remind all the presenters that in this room this morning we are dealing with the conclusion of Bill 35 and then proceeding to Bill 68. Bill 59 is being heard in the room adjacent, Room 254. "

(1005) When this committee sat last night, it was agreed that we would hear from the Manitoba Naturalists Society. The Clerk has informed me that they were contacted this morning and they will not be appearing. Additionally, Mr. Dave Brown, whose name was called but did not appear last night, also advised the Clerk that he will not be appearing. It is my understanding that it is the will of the committee that we now proceed to hear public representations on Bill 68 and therefore all public representation on Bill 35 has been concluded. Is that the will of the committee? Some Honourable Members: Agreed.

Madam Chairman: Agreed and so ordered. I will proceed at this point to identify all 32 individuals who have indicated they wish to speak to Bill 68, and then I will proceed through the list and call the individuals one by one. Those who are present as their names appear, I would request that they please come forward. Number one, Mr. George Marshall, Private Citizen; No. 2, a spokesperson to be named for Winnipeg In the Nineties; No. 3, Mr. Ken Guilford, Private Citizen; No. 4, Councillor Lillian Thomas, Elmwood Ward for the City of Winnipeg; No. 5, Ms.

Theresa Ducharme, People in Equal Participation; No. 6, Councillor Roger Young, Pembina-Riverview Ward, City of Winnipeg; No. 7, Councillor George Fraser, Private Citizen; No. 8, Councillor Terry Duguid, Miles MacDonell Ward for the City of Winnipeg; No. 9, Councillor Peter Diamant, University Ward, City of Winnipeg; No. 1 0, Mr. Paul Moist, Canadian Union of Public Employees, Local 500; No. 11 , Ms. Shirley Lord, Private Citizen; No. 12, Councillor Glen Murray, River-Osborne Ward, City of Winnipeg; No. 13, Mr. Larry Crane, Private Citizen; No. 14, Mr. George Lapp, Private Citizen; No. 15, Mr.

Brett Lockhart, Private Citizen; No. 16, Mr.Jo hn Mandryk, Private Citizen;No. 17, Mr. David

93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18, 1991 Waytowich, Private Citizen; No. 18, Mr. Robin Hall, Private Citizen; No. 19, Mrs. Charlotte Hozumi, Private Citizen; No. 20, Mr. Patrick Daly, Private Citizen; No. 21, Mr. Gary Coopland, Private Citizen; No. 22, A.M. Goodman, Private Citizen; No. 23, Mr. Grant Nordman, Private Citizen; No. 24, Mr. John Harrison, Private Citizen; No. 25, Ms. Deborah Smith, representing CHOICES; No. 26, Mrs. Julia Boon, Private Citizen; No. 27, Mr. David Brown, Private Citizen; No. 28, Mr. Mike O'Shaughnessy, Private Citizen; No. 29, Mr. Gordon Mackie, Private Citizen; No. 30, Mr.

Bernie Wolfe, Private Citizen; No. 31 , Mr. G. Hewitt, St. Boniface-St. Vital Residents Advisory; No. 32, Dr. Jim Shapiro, St. Germain Residents Association. Additionally, I would just like to suggest that if there is anyone present this morning whose name has not been called, if they would raise their hand, identify themselves to our Clerk, your name will be added to the bottom of our Jist. *

(1010) We will now proceed and I will call the individuals. As I revert to the names, please step forward. Mr. George Marshall, Private Citizen; a spokesperson for Winnipeg In the Nineties; No. 3, Mr. Ken Guilford, Private Citizen; No. 4, Councillor Lillian Thomas, Elmwood Ward, City of Winnipeg. Good morning, Councillor Th omas . Do you have a written presentation for members of the committee? Ms. Ulllan Thomas (Councillor, Elmwood Ward, CHy of Winnipeg): I have a presentation that I wrote down last night.

I do not have a political staff that types up my presentations, so I have to go by the notes that I made myseH. So I will be reading from my notes. Madam Chairman: That is fine. Thank you very much. Please proceed, Councillor Thomas. Ms. Thomas: I have come here to speak to Blll 68, which I strongly object to. I look outside and I see it pouring rain, thundering. When I got up this morning, they said that the weather could be considered ominous, and I hope the committee will consider moving in this direction to be definitely a bad omen for democracy. The first point I would like to make is on method.

I object to the method of the hearing schedule. I did not know when this hearing would convene. I had no notice. I was told to sit by my phone and wait for a call that would inform me when I was required at the Legislature. I have other business. The residents of my ward are expecting me to look after the affairs of the city. This high-handed behaviour interferes with my ability to be an effective representative. City Council does things differently. When we want the public's opinion on an issue, the issue is put on an agenda of community committees, standing committee, EPC or council.

If an individual cannot appear, many times we have laid over consideration of a matter to allow the person an opportunity to participate. I object to the method used by the Legislature. Instead of tinkering with how other levels of government handle their affairs, why do you not look at yourself and decide how you can be more effective, more democratic and more responsive to the citizens of your constituency, and let us get back to our own business. Second point-timing.

The Legislature has decided to consider this piece of tripe at a time when you are overhauling the city's major planning document through Bill 35. Also, at the same time as you have demanded that we do a major review of Plan Winnipeg, you are ramming this through when we are up to our eyeballs trying desperately to respond to your demands, but have you waited for our response? You have not. If we had not had a special meeting of council Wednesday morning, yesterday, you would have unilaterally proceeded without our input. h is difficult not to impute motives nor to take this matter personally.

I have this overwhelming feeling that the former city councillors who have either chosen to move to the Legislature or were pushed out are miffed, miffed because they cannot continue to run City Hall from the Legislature. I know that the Legislature has enough of its own problems. Why are you interfering with the city's composition and structure when an overwhelming majority of the citizens, appearing both before the ward review you struck and the commission we struck, said they wanted council to remain the same size as it is now. ..

(1015) Further to the manner on timing, I am a member of the Protection, Parks and Culture Committee. The Hughes Inquiry raised heavily on me at this time. The streets, sidewalks and sewers of my ward need attention, and this is construction season. The residents of my ward want me to come and see what their problems are, and you want me to sit by my phone and wait for a call?

July 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 94 Third issue is to content. It is proposed to reduce the number of councillors from 29 to 15. Right now I serve on 15 committees, subcommittees, ad hoc committees, boards and commissions and you are proposing, if you divide the number of councillors in half, that I sit on 30. Right now I average 50 to 60 hours a week on city business. Do you propose that I work 1 00 or 120 hours a week or perhaps you will give me an administrative staff? Where the cost saving is on that solution, I cannot fathom.

People want to talk to me, not some aide because they cannot get to me because I am too busy. It is very hard not to impute motives or to take this personally. With wards doubled in size, the cost of campaigns would skyrocket. Who would be able to afford this? Who would benefit from this? In civic campaigns, income tax receipts are not issued to working people, but now that corporations can contribute, the balance has been tilted towards the pro-development agenda which this provincial government has been attempting to implement since it got elected.

Can corporations deduct their contributions to civic campaigns as a business expense? I know individuals cannot. Low-income populations are not adequately represented now as it is. Can they run for office and present their point of view? Not easily. I ran a bare-bones campaign. It cost me $3,000. If my ward were doubled in size, it would cost me at least double for the literature and advertising alone. I could not manage with a totally volunteer campaign. This would put electioneering beyond the financial capacity of most of the population of the city of Winnipeg. It stifles input.

Who does this hurt the most-the public. How? It puts at risk the democratic process. Democracy is best served by accommodating the broadest possible spectrum of opinion. When that opinion is stifled, we can slip into a tyranny by the few. In Great Britain, smaller centres have one city councillor per 2,000 population. In larger centres like the city of Winnipeg, there is one city councillor per approximately 7,000 population. I already represent three times that number in Elmwood at the civic level today, and you are demanding that I double this.

Our traditional links with Great Britain and France focus on larger councils with city councillors serving smaller numbers of residents. This allows their representatives to be in close contact with their constituents. Do not be swayed to follow the corporate model of civic government that is being portrayed south of us in the U.S.A. They have lost contact with their electorate and are reeling under large debt that they have backed themselves into by pursuing grandiose schemes and not listening to their public.

Some cities have even declared bankruptcy. let us not imitate failure. let us listen to the will of the people. They have spoken at two commissions and have overwhelmingly rejected the plot to cut City Council and to reduce their input into the democratic process. Within the province of Manitoba as it stands today, 60 percent of the population live within the city of Winnipeg and are represented by 29 city councillors and a mayor. Forty percent of the population within Manitoba, outside the city of Winnipeg, are served by over 1 ,200 municipal politicians.

I will not advocate that municipalities outside Winnipeg feel the heavy hand of this government on their throat, but how can 29 be too many? This city is in the unique position of having two more MLAs than there are city councillors serving the exact same area of the city of Winnipeg. This is the only centre in Manitoba where this occurs. I am not advocating that the provincial legislature membership be reduced so it is exceeded by municipal representation, but if there is tinkering to be done, tinker up, not down. I have a great concern for how this reduced council will be implemented in ward configuration.

The report of the Winnipeg Wards Review Commission does not consider tradition al neighbourhoods, nor can they. Blocks of that large an area must by nature of their size cross major transportation routes, railways, rivers, streams. Also, the social characteristics and history of the area has become muddled. •

(1020) I am disappointed that the Resident Advisory Groups will be eliminated. I have found their information to be an invaluable resource, and I question why this body would wish to cut the ability of volunteers to participate. However, they have done so before to other citizen boards serving their community on a volunteer basis, so why should I be surprised? I will reflect on the recent past as to how a Resident Advisory Group in St. James dared to speak out against a controversial housing project in

95 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18, 1991 their area and rallied the support of many other groups throughout the city of Winnipeg to their cause, through a public meeting and dogged persistence, fought and continued to fight against this travesty. I find it hard not to impute motives or to take it personally, since I was one of those citizens who spoke out strongly against this project. Then there is the issue of political contributions. I would caution this government that this piece of legislation conflicts with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

To discriminate against contributions of a political party while allowing contributions from corporations is treading on very thin ice indeed. The citizens groups which I belong to and represent on council is considering taking steps in the direction of becoming a political party. I cannot help but question the motives of those who are defeated by our grassroots movement or scared off into another arena, and I ask myself, is this a vendetta to get WIN, by cutting off their financial support? This move can and will be challenged if it becomes law.

I am well aware of this government's attitude toward those who beat them in the political arena or at the bargaining table. I would caution you not to make any further political mistakes. If this move is not related to the rise of WIN, why then is it only being implemented inside and not outside the city of Winnipeg? This Is discrimination. Of that, I am sure. How dare you say that political parties are not to be a part of civic politics. Freedom of association is at risk here. This is not a joke, and I am not laughing. I am tired.

I have my own work to do, and I resent having to respond like a lab animal on a treadmill going faster and faster and getting nowhere. The degree of political interference by this level of government is tantamount to a temper tantrum. My final point-cost. What a waste of the taxpayers' money. The citizens never asked for this and, when they were asked, stated emphatically that they never wanted this. In a time of recession, you should be looking at ways to assist the poor and the disenfranchised and not looking to what you can do to stifle their voice. That is all I have to say. Are there any questions?

Madam Chairman : Thank you, Councillor Thomas. I am sure that there will be questions of the committee. Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Urban Affairs): I just want to clear up a couple of points in your presentation, Councillor Thomas. Firstly, corporate donations to municipal candidates are not tax deductible. That matter has been checked with Revenue Canada, and they have advised that they are not tax deductible.

There is, as well, no mention that I am aware of in the bill with respect to resident advisory groups, although I understand that your commission, the one appointed by City Council, recommended that they be done away with. There are no recommendations in this bill with regard to anything to do with resident advisory groups. The status quo will remain, as far as they are concerned. As well, with respect to pol itical party contributions, by motion of City Council, you requested us to implement this legislation. Ms. Thomas: That was a well-heated battle. Mr.

Ernst: Nonetheless, council has requested that to be put into place. Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Bill 68 also makes some changes In the role of mayor. I wonder if you could comment on that from your experience as a city councillor. -(interjection)-The bill makes some provisions for the role of mayor to appoint a deputy mayor, the actin g depu ty mayor and the chairpersons of the four standing committees. Do you have any comments on that and the new City Council of 15? How would that work from your experience on City Council? •

(1025) Ms. Thomas: That is how it works now. The mayor appoints the deputy mayor and the four chairs of the standing committee. H we are going to be operating like a government, as we should be, and if the mayor is to be the leader of that government, I think that this person should have the authority to appoint their cabinet. Madam Chairman: Hearing no further questions, I would like to thank you for your presentation, Councillor Thomas. Our next pre senter, No. 5, Ms. Theresa Ducharme. I believe each of the commit tee members have received a copy of Ms. Ducharme's presentation. Ms.

Theresa Duch ar me (People In Equal Participation): I thank God for this day, because I never thought that we would exceed the level of concerning ourselves with the municipal problem that we have in the lack of reaching or maintaining

July 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 96 the consideration of any councillor who has a volunteer position with a paid pension, paid benefits. You cannot reach them whether they are sitting by the phone or not, because their answering service is on. You cannot catch them. You cannot reach them unless you possibly catch them riding next to them in their vehicle going someplace on 15 committees and everything else. I thought I would never, ever, ever see this day where The City of Winnipeg Amendment Act would be reviewed and considered with the legislature in office today and having public hearings.

Our PE P organization, Peo ple in Eq ual Participation Incorporated has been aggravated, agitated and constipated on the fact that there is no movement and no work from the councillors. You heard the word "volunteer." Well, I am here as a volunteer, but I am also here as a taxpayer and I am also here as a "reciprocant" to observe all the people's actions, because I have no other choice but to sit and observe the work of all people in legislation, in parliament and also in council.

The word of reduction means to reduce those who have no time, no energy and are spread so thinly, but they do not look thin, darling, because they live high on the hog. I do not want to hurt the animals as I would hurt the council in office and in session right now, but I am hoping and praying that the P .C.s who promised to reduce the number of city councillors will keep their promise and also rejuvenate, revitalize and reunite all citizens who wish to communicate with their councillors. At one point, we had 50 councillors, and what did that do us? Where did we get to? We had 50 councillors.

Nowhere in all of the universe Canada, United States-nobody has tried 50 councillors-five, zero. If we keep tinkering and going up, up, up, up, up, we will not be here with age or our senility, because we are going to be senile after we hear this public hearing, because I am aggravated to the point that I would like to reach and communicate with the councillors who promise, once they are elected, not to divide themselves in any form and fashion but to who may be able to reach them. You heard them say, I had to sit for this meeting. I had to sit for this meeting to get the date and the time.

Well, I am sitting for the last 37 years, thank God for that, because I have been able to observe the fact that the telephone is a communication line, because we do not have a fax machine to overspend and tab the expenditure, because we are in a recession right now, dear. ..

(1030) Recessions compliment us in trying to reduce our weight, reduce our time for family, friends and, most of all, look at the fact that we are not volunteering our services because the councillors have a good-paid pension which is confidential, because I have the information right here. You are not allowed to know what their salary is-oh, your salary but not the benefits. You are not to know that two-thirds of every expenditure they have is tax deductible.

You are not allowed to know that their telephone, their household, everything is tax deductible so they can rape the government from left, right and centre. I have never seen anything in such a mess. In all of Canada, we are the only small rookie city, the city of Winnipeg, that has 29 councillors. H it was such a compliment, if it was such a benefit, why is not everybody else following the rookie city of Winnipeg in the same fashion and having 55 or 1 05 councillors? Why? Can I ask you that, because everybody else asks questions of the •reciprocants" or the delegation?

Why do we not have 105 councillors, you know, so we can divide it? Instead of just having Elmwood, we could have Elmwood, Transcona, maybe squeeze a few others. I cannot believe that we are here crying for something that is not going to help all the community and understand the fact that The City of Winnipeg Act must be amended. The one above brought rain upon us today, and I said I hope the lord will watch over everybody's conscience today to open their hearts and minds to the needs of all the citizens, because we do not have the money, we do not have the people who are committed as they once were elected.

We are not hurting democracy. That is why we are holding this public meeting, sir and madam. That is why we are holding a public meeting. Public means everyone is welcome. If you take the time and energy, you are all welcome, darling. This meeting was preplanned and it was scheduled to be so nobody had to sit by their phone; nobody had to waste their energy; nobody had to waste their physical strength, if they were a committed person.

You did not have to write your presentation after ten o'clock last night, after the news, after everything else, after you decided, oh, I think I might show up; I might do my job; I might do something to contribute to the commitment of my

97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18, 1991 stability-but at the same time, Mrs. Ducharme has been volunteering; Mrs. Ducharme has been observing; Mrs. Ducharme has been, on behalf of PEP, People In Equal Participation Inc., or "pester every person till you win." We are winners, because we take the time. We try and move our energy in the best avenue. That is why the city of Winnipeg shines in my heart, and I would not want to live any place else.

The compliment goes to the public hearing today and to the Legislature, because you people are considering the fact that we must review the fact that the councillors, all the councillors, that is their secondary or possibly their third stepping stone in their lifestyle. They do not have time; they do not have the energy; and they do not have the ability, but Mrs. Ducharme wants to hold this paper up and read one

section and then read another one--hold it up for me, please. It says, to the former Minister of Urban Affairs: "Dear Honourable Gerry Ducharme, M.l.A.-this is dated January 10, 1991-As you know, People in Equal Participation Inc. has been active in petitioning for a reduction of City Council. Winnipeg remains unique as one of the largest municipalities in this country still ineffectively administered by an oversized mun icipal government.

The unmanageable size of Council has undermined the decision-making process such that pressing issues are too often delayed, as in the current debate over the multimillion dollar Virology Lab. This is an invaluable project which will bring jobs and acclaim to our city and is presently threatened because of excessive political Indecision." Thank God I have a respirator, dear, otherwise I would not be able to communicate. Hold it up higher, dear. "PEP strongly supports the Conservative Party's election pledge to alter the City of Winnipeg Act.

In light of the current state of our economy, our country and this world, this move to improve the quality of our lives should be initiated immediately. "We have enclosed a recent study of City Councils across the country, including statistics comparing the number of councillors, ward sizes and salaries of the various councils. In light of the cost and workload of administration, all measures should be taken to maximize efficiency as acknowledged by many councillors themselves.

When projects like the Virology Lab, a lifesaving venture for both the economy and citizens of this province, are threatened, a need for immediate action cannot be denied. "We would appreciate a prompt reaction and reply." We did receive one. We have the compliment of the Virology Lab co ming where our PEP organization petition, all levels of government receive the central location and the most appropriate location for the Virology Lab so that we do not have a sick society, that we all may improve upon our health and save lives so we could be at public hearings such as today.

My presentation that is written as of today says-this is the petition that was presented to the Honourable Gerry Ducharme in January: We, the undersigned, hereby petition the Minister of Urban Affairs, the Honourable Gerry Ducharme, MLA, to amend The City of Winnipeg Act to reduce the size of Winnipeg City Council. That was presented to him in January of 1991. I represent People in Equal Participation Inc. to present the enclosed petition for reducing the number of City of Winnipeg councillors from 29 to 15 or less.

In early days of Winnipeg 50 city councillors were the total in number, providing a variety of views for community input and needs. As the population matured, a reduction of city councillors was recognized and heeded. Thus, 29 councillors became the reality of the day. Upon reviewing the crisis at hand with many community meetings and council sessions regarding policy change, a decrease in councillors is not only evidently but desperately needed. To our knowledge, no other city throughout Canada except Winnipeg has the phenomenal number of 29 councillors in office.

The city of T oronto with a larger population has 11 councillors or possibly 16. We are not sure, because they made a difference in two pages, so we are not sure, so we took the lesser number, but they do not have more than 16. Calgary and Edmonton, with an approximate number of citizens as Winnipeg, have less than 15 councillors each. The City of Los Angeles, United States of America, with over 1 0 million citizens, has nine councillors in total. Please calculate that. Why must the citizens of Winnipeg pay pensions and increase benefits for our councillors in office presently when a recession

July 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 98 exists for all others and when this pension plan does not occur in other areas of the civil work force ? It is em barrassing and a crying sh ame that the councillors' needs supersede those of their citizens. I do not want the elected to think for a moment that decreasing the number of city councillors will be harmful to the functioning of civic politics. It is believed that 12 to 15 councillors, like 12 apostles, would prove to be a bonding force that would solidify our city's efficiency to deliver services.

The wisest decision of your legislative career is at hand, which will reunite all of Winnipeg by decreasing the number of city councillors. We hope that none of them will have to sit by their phone and sit by their phone, because that is the lifestyle of a disabled person and the elderly. We love to receive phone calls, so let us hope that we have more public meetings on issues and amendments to all of The City of Winnipeg Act. There you go, sunshine, and keep smiling. Madam Chairman: Thank you, Ms. Ducharme. Would you be prepared to entertain questions from the members of the committee? Ms.

Ducharme: I will even get up and dance. Ms. Friesen: I know that you are very concerned about the costs of government. I wondered if you were aware that the minister, when he introduced this bill, indicated that it is not going to save any money, this is not a cost-saving measure, that in fact there are going to be full-time city councillors who will be paid at a full-t ime rate unlike the part-t ime rate that they are paid at now.

One proposal is also-It is not In the bill-but the assumption is that the councillor who has to deal with 50,000 people as opposed to the 19 ,000 or 20,000 that they have now will also have to have somebody to answer the phone and an assistant. I wonder what your comment on that was. • (1 040) Ms. Ducharme: Excellent, as long as we can reach the person, have their staff available, not listen to an answering machine that only records your message and has no response in return except after their holiday or after they have come back from their 15 th meeting or something else like that.

I would appreciate no reduction in finances but also the efficiency of being able to communicate with full-time councillors so that we have a city unified and bonded so that we are here to help not the rookie city we have but the unique city that we have which is Winnipeg. Ms. Friesen: So in fact it is not the cost that concerns you. It is the administrative smoothness. Ms. Ducharme: That is right. Ms. Friesen: Okay.

The other point that you made is about the size of City Council in Winnipeg compared to other cities, and you are quite right that Vancouver, Edmonton and Calgary do have much smaller councils at the moment.

The current politics in Calgary in fact, which is a very fast- growing city, is to add numbers of people to City Council and in fact to expand it and, if you look elsewhere in Canada, London, Hamilton, Ottawa, Etobicoke, those medium-sized cities of about the same size as Winnipeg in fact have exactly the same number of people to City Council as we do in Winnipeg right now, so the anomalies, the extraordinary ones, in fact, in Canada are Vancouver, Edmonton and Calgary. We are much more comparable, In fact we are almost exactly comparable to places like Ottawa, Etobicoke, Hamilton and London.

I was also disturbed a little bit by your reference to Los Angeles. It is not quite the kind of city I would like to live ln. I do not know if it is the kind of city you would like to live in, but it seems to me that the kind of civic government that has come out of those very large American cities which are government by a board of management of a very small number of people is not a city government which Is developed in the Interests of people. It is developed in the interests of highways, transport and essentially, in the case of Los Angeles, of course, in the interest of the motor car.

I wondered if you had some comment on that. Are you really recommending to us the kind of urban government that exists in Los Angeles? Ms.

Ducharme: No, I am not but, as we are following the example of the Americans with free trade, free border extension, of doing this, doing that, follow your neighbour, follow your friend, I compared Los Angeles to the fact that with the reduction and if we clean up our act soon enough and review the situation that has been stifling all of our municipalities and the development and growth of Winnipeg to attract people, not distract them from having them come and become citizens of Winnipeg.

99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18, 1991 It is phenomenal that we are not recognized as a good city. It is a rookie city, and I would like to get it out of the closet and make Winnipeg recognized. That is why our PEP organization fought so hard to bring the virology lab, which is the major teaching hospital, which is the Health Sciences Centre . We have such good quality here, why can we not develop it and promote it and we cannot when we cannot reach your councillors and we have such a phenome nal number.

I am not following los Angeles, but I am using that as a comparison, that we may fall into that tra� Ms. Friesen: I am afraid we will too. Ms. Ducharme: -if we open our doors as we have already to the Americans. Mr. James Carr (Crescentwood): To set the record straight, the member for Wolseley said that the average ward size under the propo sed configuration w ould be 50,000. Actually it is 40,000 -(in te�ection)- you said 50,000. So it would actually be 40,900, so there is a difference of 10 ,000 in the figures .

Secon dly, cities of comparable siz�ami lton, Ontario, has 16 councillors with an average ward size of 38,400, which is comparable to what is being proposed; london, Ontario, has 14 councillors with an average of 40,200, which is almost identical to what is being proposed by this legislation. -(in terjection)- No, they are not. The number of wards in london Is seven with double -membe r war ds, which me ans 14 councillors, so the member for Wolseley is wr ong. In the case of Toronto, 37,900 ; in the case of Edmonton, 96,000, so I think we should set the record straight.

Firstly, the proposal is not 50,000 but40,000 and, secondly, it is comparable to the very medium-sized cities that the member for Wolseley had suggested. Ms. Ducharme: Sir, I am glad I gave you my homework. Mr. Ernst: I also wanted to put on the record, it is true, as the member for Wolseley indicated, that I did not expect that there would be a saving from the salaries of members of council by the reduction. Those who will remain under this proposal at 15 will no doubt require an increase in compensation to compensate for the fact that they will be there on a full-time basis.

So I wanted to indicate that I did not expect any savings with regard to the salary and benefit end of the matter. I did not suggest for a moment that there would be no savings having a reduced size of council. Those other savings will come from hopefully mo re strea mlined administration, more direct, hands-on contact by the members of council and the ability to control the expen ditures at City Hall in a much more efficient and better way. That is where the savings will come ultimately for the people of Winnipeg. Ms. Ducharme: Yes, well, I am repeating myself a second time, which I did not want to do.

It is not the cost. It is the fact that you cannot reach. If you have full-time councillors and you pay them benefits and pensions and they do the work that the people who elect them will receive in return, reap the benefits of those who are elected, we will be complemented with a stronger council and a more committed council so that we can reach them , not on a fly-by-night session where they are volunteering, but they are receiving a phenomenal wage or a volunteer benefit, whatever you want to call it, but they are not available to any of their municipal recipients.

Madam Chairman: Are there further questions of the presenter? If not I would like to thank you very much, Ms. Ducharme, for your presentation this morrimg and for taking time to come out to speak to us. Ms. Ducharme: I would like to ask you a question. Where does it go from all these public hearings? What happens after this? Madam Chairman: The bill will be dealt with after public represen tation clause by clause at the committee stage and then it is reported to the legislative Assembly for third and final reading. Ms. Ducharme: Okay, God love you. Keep up the good work.

Madam Chairman: Number six, Councillor Roger Young; No. 7, Councillor George Fraser; No. 8, Councillor Terry Duguid; No. 9, Councillor Peter Diamant; No. 10 , Mr. Paul Moist. Mr. Moist, would you pause just for one moment while copies of the presentation are being distributed to committee members, please? My attention has just been drawn to the fact that there are two members making presentation here, Mr. Paul Moist and Mr. Greg Mandzuk-is that accurate?-on behalf of the Canadian Union of Public Employees, local500. Please proceed with your presentation. • (1 050)

July 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 100 Mr. Paul Moist (Canadian Union of Public Employees, Local500): Madam Chairperson, Mr. Mandzuk and I will be presenting our five-page presentation and he will begin. Mr. Greg Mandzuk (Canadian Union of Public Employees, Local 500): Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Local 500 of the Canadian Union of Public Employees welcomes the opportunity to address this committee of the Manitoba Legislature about Bill 68, The City of Winnipeg Amendment Act (2).

Local 500 represents some 6,000 city workers in virtually all classifications, with the exception of pollee, fire, transit and management. We cannot state strongly enough our opposition to the provisions of Bill68 which seek to reduce both the size of council and the number of community committees. The structure of the City of Winnipeg civic govern men t has undergone num erous changes over the past 20 years. This has had an effect on civic employees, city-provincial relations and, indeed, all citizens of Winnipeg.

The City of Winnipeg Act, in our view , ought not to become the object of constant amendment by successive provincial administrations. Rather, the current basic structure of 29 elected councillors and six community committees ought to be left in place. The proposal to reduce the size of council to 15 from 29 is largely a symbolic move rooted in the government's last political campaign. It is not based on any tangible evidence that it will yield positive results, rather it is, in our view, that this government has jumped on the popular bandwagon which states that less will be better.

We urge members of this committee to view this subject matter from a more consider ed and fact-based perspective . Before Unicity in 19 71 , ther e wer e 112 elected represe ntatives in metropolitan Winnipeg. This was reduced to 51 in '71 and further reduced to the current level of 30 in 19 77. Cu rr en tly , each member of council represents approximately 20,000 residents. The proposed reduction to 15 councillors will push the ratio to over 40,000 residents per councillor. There are few examples in Canada of ratios of residents to elected officials being so high at the municipal level.

As well, we believe that residents will become further removed from the level of government which delivers some of the most basic services that citizens receive . From another perspective, we wonder why 29 councillors are too many when you consider they represent the municipal interests of two-thirds of the citizens of the province, especially when you consider that 1 ,202 municipal off icials represent the remaining one-third of the province's population. Some of the issues that the proposed reduction in council raises, from our perspective, include: The cost of running for council will inevitably rise.

We believe it will rise to a level that will make it pr ohib itive for an ordinary citizen to even contemplate running for office. This will perpetuate the business and developer-dom inated interests who have largely controlled Winnipeg civic politics for over seven decades. The cost of running council will inevitably rise as the remaining 15 councillors will almost certainly upgrade their salaries and acquire the necessary research and clerical help for themselves. There will not be a cost saving.

In fact, we firmly believe that the cost of running council will rise while, at the same time, residents will have less direct access to their councillor. The proposed reduction in the size of council is not coupled with any recommendations to further reform civic politics. Issues such as a parliamentary system with the mayor elected from within council itself have not been addressed and, it appears to us, have not even been considered. Mr. Moist: Community committees: One of the cornerstones of Unicity was the assurance to all citizens that amalgamation would not reduce resident involvement in civic politics.

The creation of community committees and resident advisory groups were designed to ensure citizen involvement and participation in the many facets of running municipal government. The proposed amendment in subsection 35(1) to reduce the number of community committees from six to five is the first step toward dissolving the innovative measures enacted in 19 71 to encourage and ensure local citizen participation in local municipal matters. The elimination of one community committee is another political decision to make the newly downsized council fit into the remnants of the Unicity structur e .

The crea tion of fiv e com muni ty committees from the current six will serve to reduce the community nature of these committees that was originally intended . There will be little in common when residents from two separate suburban areas

101 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18, 1991 meet around the table with an inner city resident to discuss Issues of community recreation or policing issues. The present six district concept is not perfect. Indeed, CUPE has offered countless suggestions to City Council on how certain public works tasks could be delivered more efficiently. We, therefore, are not advoca ting the retention of the current system in whole.

However, we firmly support the participation of residents in the business of civic government and we do not agree with the reduction of one community committee to serve this provincial government's political agenda, especially when the proposed reduction will deform the original concept which was based on encouraging citizen in volvemen t from citizens within their own communities.

The efficiency of city government: Earlier in this brief we stated our belief that the proposal to reduce the size of Winnipeg City Council is a symbolic move which seeks to capitalize on the general public's frustration with all levels of government; less will inevitably be better. CUPE rejects outright such simplistic and destructive notions. To do anything less on our part would be an admission that civic governmen t in Winnipeg is not working .

While we, as employees, have numerous problems with City Hall, and we believe firmly that council could do a better job in many areas, we do not accept the proposition that City Hall is in need of such a drastic and ill-thought overhaul as is being proposed. Wlnnipeggers receive excellent services from their civic government. We all enjoy this city's services, such as a quality water supply and reasonably priced hydro-electric power, which our far-sighted predecessors put in place many decades ago.

As employees, we probably deliver the wide array of services that Winnipeggers use on a daily basis. .. (1 10 0) In our view, the greatest strain on City Hall today is that created by the province and the federal government downloading their own financial problems onto municipalities and school boards. This past year we documented our concerns on this in numerous briefs on the city budget. Our main points included property tax credits. The freezing of property tax credits at 19 80 levels has impacted significantly on Winnipeg ratepayers .

The $325 credit, when adjusted for inflation since 19 80, ought to be $591 . In the past five years alone, the province's cutback in real property tax credits has added a minimum of 11. 1 percent to property tax bills. Provincial grants in lieu of taxes: Since 19 83 this source of city revenue has decreased from 24.7 percent of city finances to 22.6 percent in 1 990. The province's 19 91 grant levels brought this figure below 22 percent for the first time. Reassessment: The portioning component of the 19 90 reassessment, which is completely controlled by the provi nce, did shift the tax burde n.

Residential property owners paid 1 .35 percent more of the total property tax load, while the commercial category dropped by 3.7 percent. Rnally, Manitoba gross domestic product: Since 19 80 the province has increased its share of provincial GOP from 17 .6 percent to 19 .9 percent, while the city's share over the same period fell from 2.66 percent to 2.45 percent. This amounts to an increase of 13 .1 percent for the province and a decrease of 8.6 percent for the city. Put another way, the province spent seven times more than the city in 19 80 while in 1990 , it spent 8.6 times more.

If provincial spending had increased only as fast as the city, the province would be spending almost a billion dollars less in 19 90. These points are summarized more fully in the attached November 19 90 paper on city finances. The provincial cabinet contains a number of individuals fully aware of the financial arguments contained within this brief. They are fully aware that the city has continued to meet the public's ever-increasing demand for services with shrinking commitments from both the provincial and the federal governments.

This has shifted an unfair burden onto residential tax rates, and the public is understandably mad. The city has shouldered the bulk of the taxpayers' frustrati on, yet the cause of the problem is not overspending. It is unfair and insu ffi cien t funding from senio r levels of government. The city has shouldered much of the public's frustration and anger because of its own inability to focus its collective attention on this Legislature. The province has gotten off easy while council politely accepts year after year of regressiv e provincial funding policies.

This inadequacy on the part of City Council is not so much a commentary on its size as it is on its lack of commitment to setting

July 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 102 its own political agenda. Far more sweeping reforms will be required to correct this situation. These reform s will have to emerge from within council itself as well as with the provincial government under whose steward ship The City of Winnipeg Act resides. The current proposals to reduce the size of council and the number of community committees ought to be defea ted. Our city des er ves much mor e from its elected representatives at all levels. Madam Chair, we would be pleased to answer any questions if there are any. Madam Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Moist.

Are there questions of the committee? Mr. Ernst: I just have one question, Mr. Moist, and that is the question with regard to community committees. The original concept, of course, as you outline In your brief, relates to why community committees were formed, yet when they were formed, there were 12, plus the inner-city joint community committee.

In 19 77, the gov ernmen t of the day, the New Democratic Party government, I might add, reduced that to six, a 10 0 percent or 50 percent, depending upon how you wish to deal with It, reduction in the size of community committees , yet you are concerned at this point that a reduction of one, simply because of the numbers game related to the members of City Council, is of great concern. Did CUPE at the time oppose the reduction of community committees from 12 to six? Mr. Moist: Through the Chair, I guess I cannot comment whether CUPE opposed that or not at the time.

CUPE made extensive submissions to the government of the day when Unicity was created. I would commend to the minister to read the Taraska report which was the prelude to the changes in 19 77, and they had this to say about the reduction from 12 to six. They said: In terms of geography, the six districts represent natural sectors of the city. The rivers form the major boundaries. Their minor boundaries are formed by railway yards and rights of way. The districts are much larger than the present com munity areas both In terms of population and physical extent.

They also contain, In most instances, a variety of social, cultural and econom ic gr oup s and a variety of physical conditions. The Taraska report recommended the movement to six because it fit within a current city structure of having divided up public works tasks Into six districts. They also raised the other point because the Taraska report recommended a reduction in council from 51 to 37. It ultimately was reduced to the level of 29.

They raised the point though that they did not want to see the creation of community committees with three elected members of council only, because the committee would be stymied from doing any business with the absence of one member of council. They ther efore supp orted the reduction in community committees. They felt they could still live within the geographic rationale that existed for the dividing up of public works tasks into six districts. There is no such geographic rationale for going to five .

It simply fits the equation of 15 councillors, and it will destroy the original concept of the community committees, in our view. Mr. Ernst: One other question, Mr. Moist. On page two, paragraph sub (iii), at the bottom of the page, you raised the question of the parliamentary system and the election of mayor by council. Chemiack did not recommend that. No one whom I know of has rec omme nded that. Are you proposing, sir, that this should have been a major consideration when, to my knowledge at least, nobody is in fav our of that kind of a system? Mr.

Moist: Through the Chair, I can inform the minister, on behalf of the labour movement, It is the position of the Winnipeg Labour Council, supported by the Ma nito ba Federation of Labour, a long-standing policy, that a parliamentary form of government be enacted at the civic level. We have made representations to that effect over the years.

It is our position that we would not have to read editorials in the Free Press like we had to read a few weeks ago, where the mayor's own appointed members of Executive Policy Committee seem to abandon him on issues, as they feel like it, with no allegiance to him whatsoever, certainly none of the allegiance that exists within this Chamber where the leaders of your respected parties are elected from within your own ranks. We are long-standing advocates of the mayor being elected from within council itself. Madam Chairman: Are there further questions of the delegation?

If not, I would like to thank you for your presentation, Mr. Moist. Number 11, Ms. Shirley Lord; No. 12 , Councillor Glen Murray; No. 13 , Mr. Larry Crane; No. 14 , Mr. George Lapp; No.

103 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA July 18, 1991 15 , Mr. Brett Lockhart. Good morning, Mr. Lockhart. Do you have copies of your presentation for the committee? Mr. Brett Lockhart {Private Citizen): No, I do not, sorry. Madam Chairman: Okay. Thank you very much. Please proceed. Mr. Lockhart: I will be short and sweet . I would just like to go on the record as saying I support the reduction of City Council and paying the councillors for the full-time position. I am going to depart from my prepared text which I had, because you have all heard the arguments for it before .

I would just like to raise a few concerns I have seen this morning. There are many population centres the size of Winnipeg throughout North America. We can pull up examples to support both sides. The thing is, City Council is not operating efficient ly. We have to change it. I would like to belong to a city that, when there is a problem, can go forward and change it. Maybe we do not know where we are going, but something has to go, so I think it is imperative that City Council is reduced. Basically, that is ali i have to say. I will save your time. Thank you. Madam Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Lockhart.

Would you be prepared to entertain questions? Mr. Lockhart: Yes. Madam Chairman: Are there questions of Mr. Lockhart? H not, I thank you for your presentation. Mr. John Mandryk, Mr. David Waytowich. Good morning. Your presentation has been distributed. I believe all members of the committee have received a copy. Would you please proceed. • (1 110 ) Mr. David Woytowlch (Privata Citizen): Madam Chairman, ladies and gentleman and people of the audience, my name is David Waytowich and I am here representing a group of concerned citizens from Assiniboia to make a presentation at this public hearing.

I would just like to tell you how we did it. Fifteen of us got together, we were concerned people, and we did not like the way the City of Winnipeg was going and what could we do to change it. We spent two grueling hours in a room and we came up with some constructiv e recommendations. First of all, I would like to thank you for the opportunity that we had to present these earlier recommendations to the Winnipeg Wards Review Committee. This is regarding proposed changes to the Winnipeg City Council.

As a preface to this presentation, I would like to comment, as everyone else seems to have done quite succinctly, on the history of electoral representation and the wards they represent. In addition, I would like to comment on the civic structures, as the member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen) has done, and other Canadian cities which are comparable in size to Winnipeg. I would refer the member for Wolseley to look at exhibit No. 1. Prior to incep tion of Metro, there wer e approximately 70 councillors.

Metro reduced the number of councillors to approximately 50, everybody agrees, and now the subsequent reduction has brought us to the current structure of 29 councillors. What is really interesting and noteworthy, the population of Winnipeg has not changed significantly during that time. It is still at 600,000. We strongly believe as a group of citizens, not councillors, not union leaders, citizens, that this structure is still too large. It is inefficient, ineffective and there is very little accountability to the citizens of Winnipeg.

One only has to watch council's performance, either as a spectator or from televised council meetings, to conclude that the present structure is cumbersome and unproductive. Other cities across Canada which have similar populations, and, the member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen), I really cannot understand how we are different from Edmonton or Calgary, people are people. Vancouver, North York and Scarborough, the size of council in these cities, excluding the mayor, ranges from 10 to 14 members. The average population per council member is 42,747.

In comparison, the average population per council member for the City of Winnipeg is only 20,000. We are presenting the following recommendations and these are the same ones I presented , and I do not think this government has gone far enoug�1 5, we are recommending 12 . That is right, because we need to streamline the operations of the City of Winnipeg-excuse me, sir, I am talking-to allow it effective ly and efficiently into the '90s and the 21s t Cen tury . These recommendations, by the way, were based on a review of other civic structures, and this is what we came up with.

July 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 104 Boundaries. The Red River and Assiniboine Rivers form natural boundaries that divide the city of Winnipeg into three areas. I would like the members to refer to exhibit 2. We are proposing, and we have made this proposal to the Wards Review Committee, that all these areas constitute a ward for electoral purposes of substantially equal population. We recommend three wards. Each of the wards shall elect four councillors for a total council of 12 members.

Each council position shall be a full-time position accountable to the citizens, with a salary parallel to that of the Province of Manitoba MLAs. The term of the council we recommend should be three years. Community Committees. We recommend they should cease to exist. Councillors will form part of standing committees. Their recommendations will flow directly to council and this we also believe will replace the current Winnipeg Executive Policy Committee. Standing Committees.

We recommend that each standing committee shall consist of five councillors, with each ward being represented by at least one member and no more than two. This is so that when people phone, that the phone will be answered. Madam Chairman: Mr. Woytowich, I wonder if you might not turn away from the microphone because Hansard has difficulty when you move away from the mike, picking up, and everything is recorded simultaneously. Mr. Woytowlch: The major standing committees that we recommended were health, education, finance and works and operations. In

summary and conclusions, this is what we came up with. These recommended changes reflect similar ward structures and size of councils to that of Canadian cities which are comparable in size to the city of Winnipeg, example, Calgary, Edmonton, which, by the way, cut back during the recessionary time in the '80s. The recommended system of three wards will fairly represent, we believe, the multicultural nature of the city of Winnipeg and allow all councillors to reflect this unique feature.

In other words, if four councillors can be elected in one ward, it does not matter where in the ward, it will certainly represent as we believe the multicultural sector of the city of Winnipeg. Citizens in each ward will now have ready access to four representatives, not one, four. When you get on the phone you have four representatives you can call, not one-ful l-time representatives. Thus, the citizens will now have direct access to these committees. Reducing the number of city councillors to 12 full-time positions will improve the accountability and the efficiency of City Council.

This will be reflected financially, maybe not in reduced salaries but in areas of reduced administration costs. Councillor Boychuk brought that out when he attended our meeting in Assiniboia. He brought in a semi load of paper and he said, how can I reduce all my administration? I am going to have more work to do. We said, no, you are showing us that this is inefficient when you are bringing all this paper in, so he defeated his own commentary, I believe. In conclusion, the citizens of Winnipeg-this is still among our group-are among the highest paying municipal taxpayers of any major city in Canada.

Streamlining City Council is the first step to reducing and controlling future tax increases to the citizens of Winnipeg. I would like to make a few comments to the committee here, personal comments. I am an environmental engineer. I work very hard. This is a recession. I work for a very small company. I am taking time away to be here, and it disturbs me that the City of Winnipeg can, in time of recession, in times of the highest taxes, give a 4 percent or whatever, 8 percent increase, to their civic employees when I am striving to keep my job. Right?

Secondly, what I cannot understand is that after these councillors, I believe, accept this 4 percent or 8 percent, then they say now we have to build a new water treatment plant worth $300 million. Where are we going to find the money for that? I will tell you something. I am a firm believer-and I am getting a little frustrated here and a little excited-but I am a firm believer we can cut down on our bureaucracy, and this is the first step let me say, I hope, to the government.

Cut down the size of City Council, cut down the size of districts from six to three, cut down the size of our school divisions, the number of trustees, and do you know what we will find out? Maybe we will not need five commissioners to run this city. Maybe we are not run by bureaucracy anymore; maybe we are run by the 15 councillors that we elect. Would that not be nice?

105 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18, 1991 Anyway, that concludes my comments. I would entertain any questions that this committee may have.. Madam Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Woytowlch. Are there questions of Mr. Woytowich? Ms. Friesen: I do not have any questions, but I would like to pass Mr. Woytowich the amended paper which I did table in the House, which does show that Hamilton does have an average number of population per council of 19 , 19 8; london has 20,1 25; Etobicoke has 25,200; Ottawa has 20,500. So there are other examples as well. Mr. Woytowlch: I know that, member for Wolseley.

What I am saying Is, we can go into this city or this city. We can say we are a little bit like Ottawa or a little bit like Calgary. I am saying, I have listed in Exhibit No. 1 what I could find-five communities of comparable population to the city of Winnipeg. They are running very efficiently, very effectively. I believe that we do not have-they are going with full-time councillors in these cities, which I believe is certainly an asset.

I am really looking forward that if we do have elected councillors, there will be more participation on the part of people to attend and actually vote. let me tell you, if they know people are going to be voting, they vote-a re going to be having full-time positions there are going to be a lot more people participating in this function. Now it is just a joke, basically, you know, in terms of the election of city councillors in this city. Madam Chairman: Are there further questions of Mr. Woytowich? If not, I would like to thank you for your presentation, Mr. Woytowich. Mr. Woytowlch: Thank you very much.

Madam Chairman: Number 18 , Mr. Robin Hall; 19 , Mrs. Charlotte Hozumi. Am I pronouncing your name correctly? Mrs. Charlotte Hozuml (Private Citizen): Yes, fine. Madam Chairman: I believe all members of the committee have rec eived a copy of your presentation. Please proceed. Mrs. Hozuml: As a member of T.H.R.I.F .T., I wish to address this committee in respect to the size of council at our City Hall. I believe the issue under discussion should also be approached from the per spectiv e of redu cing the expansion of government at the federal, provincial, as well as municipal levels. Why?

Simply because the cost of overextended government is becoming more and more unaffordable to the average taxpayer. This should not be interpreted to mean that we need not make every effort to afford democratic representation. What I mean is that just as the present generations exhibit a keen knowledge of product quality and customer service when choosing a consumer item, and just as successful companies have redefined their management and administration and production to accommodate the consumer, so we expect government to operate with service and quality, accountability and cost a top priority.

A (1 12 0) I think it timely that changes be made within the administration and management at City Hall to synchronize with the streamlining of council. The terms "worker management" and "worker control," meanin g the same Individuals who are the technologists and the production workers are also the managers and the administrators, is a concept that should be studied by top city administrators, especially in light of recent news that a top official sees fit to reward lack of motivation with salary increases. This type of government Canadians can no longer afford and will not buy.

I think this is a major reason why, at this point in time, people are very interested in initiating a reduction in the number of councillors. Councillors, being public trustees, should be subject to the highest standards of public scrutiny and accountability. However, in many ways, I think people feel that they have been mocked. The provincial report entitled The Winnipeg Wards Review prepared by Mr. Ross is an earnest and well-thought-out presentation which, to my mind, offers many excellent suggestions that will improve representation and efficiency at City Hall.

I think his committee's recommendation that council be 15 rather than the recommendation of 23 that was suggested by the municipal report is a good first step. It brings the number of councillors more in line with the representation established in other Canadian cities. I cannot agree with the argument presented in the municipal report that the complex issues of Winnipeg's civic politics may require a diversity of opinion not possible with a small council, nor can I agree that Winnipeg's cultural, ethnic and social

July 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 106 economic diversity sets it so much apart from other Canadian cities that comparisons are not pertinent. Certainly, all major cities across Canada have unique aspects. I cannot really believe that councillors must face more diverse or complex problems here in Winnipeg than in other cities. Central Toronto, for example, and Vancouver whose population is comparable have 16 and 1 0 members respectively. The popular argument that a reduction in the size of council will necessarily result in less public influence is, in my opinion, untrue.

People feel as if they are not being heard now. I can cite a recent event as an example. Last summer large number of Winnipeggers signed petitions and attended meetings as a result of excessively high property tax increases. Throughout the wint er, T.H.R.I .F.T. has received thousands of petitions as a result of these increases. Presentations to council regarding this matter have been made. Yet, the 29 decided to vote for a further tax increase again this year. It is not hard to presume that another increase is likely next year.

In the minds of a great number of people, the 29 councillors have not been aggressively responding to the concerns of their constituents but seem to be paying more heed to party politics and to other powerful outside influences. Whatever the reasons, factions and disarray exist at City Hall. People have been talking. H the 29 do not listen, why would we think we would be worse off with 15 ? Rather than curtailing communication, I think the significant restructuring that will occur along with the transition to 15 will be good news to most people and will encourage more people to get involved.

Further to this, I can only wonder at the attitude I would term as unprofe ssional, when very often delegations from the public are often met with needless arrogance and downright rudeness. Councillors get up and leave for coff ee, go visiting back and forth . Often there is not even a quorum when someone has taken time from work to make a presentation at City Hall. This is all documented on TV.

I cannot say that having 15 members would suddenly change all this, but perhaps it is a good time to work on an image change that would impart an impression of effici ency and team work to the viewing public, because this coverage is, after all, the only time most of us have a window to City Hall. While I am on the topic of television coverage, I would like to point out that it is difficult for the discussions to move along at a pace that allows the viewer to follow the point, because each of the 29 councillors inevitably deliver harangues of 15 minutes or more.

Fifte en councillors should be able to cut the time needed for council meetings. The 29 council system has become so bogged down that they seem to lack enough authority or leadership to do mu ch mo re than to rubbe r-s ta mp recommendations from city administrators, even if they may not reflect the views of the people. I think it an excellent recommendation that City Council positions be considered but not legislated full time. This ensures more people the chance to run for offi ce. This will help to ensure the best selection of people for office .

The wards, of course, will become larger, but I do not perceive this to be a disadvantage. I agree it will lead to a less parochial division of the city . Each counci llor will be responsible for a wider, and therefore diverse, mixture of people. For example, if an older area is integrated into a newer area, a councillor would have to decide how to best meet the concerns of a wider spectrum, and residents would also have to recognize there are now various divergent concerns to understand. With respect to the issue of support staff, I have an odd feeling that this might lead to a spending spree.

I hope this will not be the mind-set. There should be a strict modest spending ceiling established, and tasks will have to be managed within the guidelines. Any further comments I have would be a reiter ation of the excellent and well-meaning report conducted by Mr. Ross for the betterment of this fine city of Winnipeg. I hope his recommendations will be carried out smoothly, and that Premier Filmon honours his election promise to reduce the size of council. Thank you. Madam Chairman: Thank you, Mrs. Hozumi. I will ask the committee if there are any questions. Ms.

Friesen: I was interested in the early part of your presentation where you talk about government as delivering a product, operating with service and quality and delivering a product. Obviously, there are certain kinds of services that governments do deliver, but from the perspective of an elected representative, one of the other things

107 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18, 1991 that I think every representative tries to do is to talk to the people, whether It is in public meetings or at the doorstep, to understand their perspective and to represent their point of view in the various forms of government, and I wondered if you had some reflecti ons on that. I notice, for example, that you think that 15 minutes in City Council is too long to represent the opinions of 20,000 people, which is what a city councillor is expected to do now. I wonder what the appropriate time would be, and how you see that representative function . Mrs.

Hozuml: Well, I think really to argue or discuss the appropriate time is a little bit like arguing how many angels can balance on a headpin. I think what I meant in my topic was councillors seem to go off on topics that really are not pertinent to the discussion, and If a councillor has something that is vastly Important to say, and many times it Is important, but not just as a matter of course every councillor has to speak. My point is that things could be made a lot more fast-paced by my suggestion.

When you mention about product and company, I think that Is sort of a line that people like to pick up, that governments should be likened to corporate structure and all that. What I am merely saying Is that this is the reality of the world today, and I think government has to wake up and get in tune with it. That is all. Ms. Friesen: I was truly trying to understand your perspective which is very different from mine, and I can see that what you are saying is not that the 15 minutes Is what you are objecting to, it Is the content. You say people go off on tangents. Mrs.

Hozuml: Well, they do go off on tangents, and I think it wastes time. I am not saying that I think that there should be less representation from the people. I think that the government of the '90s should be involving more people, and people have more chance to be involved. Ms. Friesen: I wonder how we are going to accomplish that when we are cutting community committees from six to five, for example, because that is one route for involvement. In the new situation, what kind of involvement would you suggest? How would you think people should be involved? * (1 13 0) Mrs.

Hozu ml : I did not mention community committees In my talk here, but I understand the idea behind community committees, and I think probably the concept is very good. I do not know enough about the procedures at City Hall or how the line of communication is broken or continued to make a real recommendation about changes in that type of structure, but from my own perspective, I like there to be a way that the normal person could have a chance to discuss topics that are being talked about at City Hall, and I think that is why the community committees were established.

I must say that there is an awful lot of emphasis being placed on these community committees, but I do not think that most people utilize them. I know myself, moving from another city, another country, and coming here and becoming more and more Involved in political Issues, I did not even know of their existence .

I do not know whether there should be some sort of restructuring to combine the concept to make them more interesting or accessible, or advertise them more so that the average citizen could feel motivated to attend the meetings because I do not think a lot of people do attend these community committee meetings, even for quite Important issues. When It is argued that discussions resulting from these meetings represent the community, I do not think that can be considered as true because there may have only been six people show up.

The concept of this type of communication is good, and certainly I would not like to see a block between the people and the councillors, but I think the way has to be redefined. Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Government Services): I appreciate your comments In regard to the time element at City Hall, when they get up in front of the TV cameras and expound tor 15 minutes because most people-and I want to put it on the record-do not appreciate that a councillor on a local issue gets a chance to talk at community committee right now.

He also gets a chance to talk at a standing committee, and unlimited time at both of those. He also gets unlimited time at EPC, so by the time It gets to the council floor, I appreciate your comments that unless it has not been said before a lot, and I guess all politicians have a tendency to do that, but at City Hall maybe people only think that is the only opportunity they have. They have opportunity through the whole system to make comments on issues and policy.

July 18, 199 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 108 Madam Chairman: Mrs. Hozumi, did you wish to comment? Mrs.Hozuml: Yes, I agree wHh that and I think that a lot of times, it seems like the issues are not so much the point of the discussion, but it is a poiHical posturing or that sort of thing. Although these mannerisms are not going to be necessarily changed with reduction of council, I think that with a reduction of council, there are only 15 members or maybe less, so things can move along, and people will see it as being not so much in disarray, but more united and tight.

Madam Chai rma n: Thank you for your presentation. Mr. Patrick Daly. Good morning, Mr. Daly, do you have copies of your presentation for committee members? Mr. Patrick Daly (Private CIUzen): I did not get time to duplicate it yet. Madam Chairman: But you can leave it wHh the Clerk after? Mr. Daly: Yes. Madam Chairman: Okay, thank you very much. Please proceed. Mr. Daly: Honourable Chairperson, honourable members, I would like to take this opportunity to present my perspective of the changes that are to be made to City Hall.

In other words, I support the intent of the bill, not as an academic or as a political scientist, but as John Doe citizen, as a taxpayer. It is about time that something was done to address the inefficiencies of City Council of Winnipeg, and this step to reduce the size of council by almost half is a move in the right direction. As a property owner and taxpayer to all levels of government, I have become increasingly frustrated by the constant and often large yearly increases in taxes at all levels of government that are accompanied with no apparent increases, but actually decreases in some services.

The City of Winnipeg is by far the leader in raising their property taxes by amounts sometimes approaching and reaching double digits in recent years. This same council has not made any endeavours to become efficient at a time when taxpayers who are obviously overburdened would have chosen instead to pass on large increases in property taxes to the people of Winnipeg. By reducing the size of City Council, the government of Manitoba has made a move that will release from the operations of council the cumbersome aspects of dealing with 29 councillors representing their own parochial interests.

Just because City Council is a large dose does not mean that its quality representation Is for Its cHizens. Hopefully, a smaller council will allow for more if its attention is directed at the important global concerns and interests of the city of Winnipeg cHizens. The move to a smaller City Council will not only remove the parochialism and competition between wards, but will also provide for a wider perspective of the policy developments and budgets. This is a direction in which City Council must move if it is to maintain services and limit the burden the council places upon its taxpayers.

A smaller council will also provide for a quicker decision-making process as the cumbersomeness of council is removed resulting in the council becoming a more effective city manager. This point is probably the most important, especially as cost rises and the abiiHy of people to pay more property taxes is Impossible. Thank you, honourable Chairperson. Madam Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Daly. Would you be prepared to entertain questions? Mr. Daly: To the best of my ability. Madam Chairman: Thank you. Ms. Friesen: I certainly sympathize with you on the problem and plights of the Winnipeg homeowner.

I think what I would like to suggest is that the Winnipeg taxpayer, property taxpayer, Is at the bottom of a very long chain of a federal government which has offloaded many of its economic problems onto the provinces by cutting health and social welfare payments and a provincial government which has replied in exactly the same way and has offloaded many of its costs in roads and other areas to the City of Winnipeg which only has the opportunity, the City of Winnipeg can only tax the homeowner. It cannot tax more fairly across the population.

So from my perspective that is certainly one of the problems that city taxpayers are facing. I wondered what comments you might have on that. Mr. Daly: I appreciate your frustration with the poiHical appreciation of the federal or provincial governments. As I said in my opening point, I am here as John Doe citizen, not as an academic or a political scientist. In that context, I will address my concerns to the way in which I see the city being managed. I think that is where a question well

109 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18, 1991 documented, the frustrations of the citizens in having to deal with city councillors, the bureaucracy that is taking total control of the city and failure on council through the mere fact that they cannot interact with each other is leading to this frustration with the city residents.

Regardless of whether the province or the feds have cut back, the issue we have to deal with here is what is addressing the concerns of the citizen of Winnipeg in setting up an administration, a City Council admin istration, which will act in their interests by cutting the duplication and by putting the administration in a position where it is accountable to council and not the other way around. That is what I think John Doe citizen is all about. Ms. Friesen: What I am trying to get at is I am not sure that the problems of Winnipeg are going to be solved by cutting City Council.

The problems of Winnipeg which stem from the increasing welfare rolls, increasing unemployment, the migration into the inner city of so many people who require a great deal of support. The city has a lot of financial problems. The only way at the moment that the city can raise money is by the property tax which falls very heavily, obviously, on one particular group of people. I am not sure that a group of 15 is going to have any different solutions than the group of 29 for that problem.

They can only have the property tax or now, in fact, they will have a certain type of business tax. • (1 14 0) So how will cutting City Council give the city more options to manage the problems that it has? Mr. Daly: Well, again I go back to the point of addressing the efficiency of the current council.

I am not an authority as I have said on the political aspirations of City Council or its interaction with the administration of City Hall, but clearly there is enough information coming through the media at least to suggest that City Council does not have control of the administration which in turn is creating this demise for the city taxpayer. So, in that sense, I think any change is worth a look at. If a reduced City Hall or a reduced council load-it may fail. If it does, I will come back here in four years and tell you the opposite, but for the moment, let us try something. Ms.

Friesen: Agai n, I shar e some of your frustrations about the conflict in fact between city councillors and administration. The lines are not right in my view that the administration is not controlled by the elected representatives. Again, I am concerned about how cutting City Council is actually going to change that. I did some research on this, and I found one

article which had looked at cities across Canada which had made the change from part- time councillors to full-time councillors. The one thing that they found was that when cities made that change to full-time councillors was that every city councillor believed themselves to be an administrator. They were full time on the job and that they began in fact to interfere with administration and to believe themselves to be administrators not representatives and in fact the conflicts increased. Now that is only one piece of research, a fairly small sample, but I do not have any other evide nce.

I wondered if you had any experience or that you had heard from other people about how a cut in City Council would in fact change that relationship. Mr. Daly: Again, your question Is somewhat hypothetical in the sense that you can apply the statistics of other communities, but this is Manitoba. This is a distinct community on its own. In that sense, the communit y will respond to the frustrations that it is experiencing. If your bank manager is ripping you off, you ask to get him removed and get another one in.

That is not to say that the new manager is going to be any better than the old one, but at least you feel confident that something has been done and that the end result may be a more efficient system. I guess that is the best scenario I can draw . Mr. Ernst: Mr. Daly, well, my colleague, Ms. Friesen, indicated just a moment ago that the ability of the city to raise money is a problem. I want to ask you the question, do you think raising more money is a problem or do you think that cutting expenditures is the real problem? Mr.

Daly: Well, I would suggest that control of expenditures would be the priority to be looked at. I am not suggesting that you cut back and create unemployment and put people on welfare, but I think control of expenditures which clearly is a factor in the way that City Hall is being run these days is the concern of every citizen in this city. So I would say a more responsible control of where our dollars are going and why they are going in such a way I would see as the concern.

July 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 110 Madam Chairm an: Thank you for your presentation, Mr. Daly. Mr. Daly: Do I leave this here? Madam Chairman: Yes, If you would leave that with the Clerk, she will make copies. Ms. R. M. Goodman (Private Citizen): Good morning. Madam Chairman: Good morning. Members o f the committee have received your presentation; please proceed. Ms. Goodman: That was what I was about to do. Good morning, greetings , fe licitat ions, salutations, et cetera.

Before I get Into reading from my paper here, I w ould first of all like to state that I did not find out about having to give this presentation until afte r 5 p.m. last night. I phoned this morning to the Clerk's office to clarify as to what the call entailed and was told I had to be here at ten o'clock this morning. Aside fro m what is written within my brief , I will be ad- libbing and also making recommendations at the end of my brief. I enjoy ad-llbbing. I am an ex-toastmaster. It is my forte. I will introduce myself. My name is R. M. Goodman.

I was put down as a concerned citizen, but I will also list my community qualifications. I am a member in good standing of the Point Douglas Residents' Committee, a very successful lobbying and protest and community action group. I am a member of the Norquay Community Club. I am a past resident of the town of Lynn Lake, a town which the members of the Progressive Conservative Party are probably very familiar with. I am also quite the activist from the North. I shall go forth .

To whom It may concern , although reducing the size of the Winnipeg City Council may be perc e ived as a soun d , administrative move, I strongly feel this legislation, if passed, could bode ill for the city In terms of equal, unbiased community representation. Philosophically speaking, council members are repr es entatives of their respect ive communities--not parties but communities-- and must aside their own personal agendas in order to serve those who elected them. All too many times, this philosophy gets lost along the way.

Little by little, the electors' voices are losing their impact as government moves become more streamlined, placing public servants in key decision-making roles. As we are seeing right now, the public service is becoming a monster out of control. I could throw a statistic at you that I recently heard. Approximately, 25 percent of the population serves within the scope of the public service. I hope you find that very amusing, Mr. Ernst, because I am trying to speak and I want your rapt attention. It is very important to me that you watch me while I speak. I want you to get every word of what I have to say.

I think the public service is becoming a monster out of control. Need I start to list the improprieties committed by certain members of the public service, recently, as in the Claro Paqueo affai r, Rotary Pines, et cetera, at all three levels of government-no, I do not need to mudsling today. I am sure you are well aware of the problems your government has. Presently, councillors are able to serve a smaller population with maximum contact. I find that It is relatively easy to contact councillors right now.

I find if I make a phone call, nine times out of 10 I am called back within the same business day, depending, of course, on the severity of the concern that is being presented via the telephone. If this bill is passed, the average ward will most likely double in size-1 had put triple in size in my brief. I will now reiterate and change that to double in size, because I have been since informed that they will likely double as opposed to triple. This will be make direct contact with constituents next to imp ossible.

Cons tituents will fin d themselves dealing more and more with appointed administrators rather than their councillor. Another problem that wi ll be faced with a reduced council is higher election costs. The average campaign costs approximately $10 ,000, easily affordable to most and to those who are motivated to fund-r aise. With wards to be doubled in size, election costs will be affo rdable to those very few elite in society with corporate backing. Rne and dandy. If I wa nt to run, the Richardsons might back me, but is it going to back Joe Blow down the street who is really just as passionate as me?

No, I do not think so. • (1 15 0) Let us face it, money is the name of the game. You all know the old saying, money talks, bull-bleep-walks . I see this every day with this government. Those with money will be calling the

111 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18, 1991 shots for everyone, and where will the poor, the single parents, the working poor, the first -time inner city homeowners and the special interest groups be then? I know. They will be receiving their eviction notices so some stupid, useless dinosaur of a development like Rotary Pines can be hammered through the corporately controlled council, because, my friends, that is what you are going to get if you go through with a recommendation of 15 . The costs will be heightened; you will have corporate backing going in there.

Not community agendas, but corporate agendas, development agendas, big-time government agendas. What has that got to do with council as it stands now? Other than The City of Winnipeg Act, which is what we are talking about here today, I see no input from provincial government having any validity within civic government. The issues are unique. The city of Winnipeg is unique. We can compare it all we want to other cities in North America, but it is unique. Look at the way our city planning is. We are not as well-planned a city as Calgary. We do not have the revenue that Calgary has obviously.

We are an older city than Calgary. Compare as you may. I happen to like this city a great deal for all its mucky, muckiness and construction seasons-we ll, in my neighbourhood, Point Douglas, you know, where my car windows get smashed out once a month, I still like it. I cannot see 15 councillors being effective as opposed to 29. Perhaps another number should be reached, somewhere in the middle of those two numbers. I am standing here today so you can hear and see me face to face giving out my concerns for what they are worth. I know deep down that this bill will go through, regardless of what I have to say.

This government has already proven their willingness to forgo the democratic process in terms of other edicts recently passed down in the Family Services department. I am an Inner city dweller. I am a taxpayer. I am a middle-class taxpayer. I rent property on Higgins Avenue for my business. I own my home on Hallet Street which I am fighting right now to retain my mortgage for, and I am a prof essional. I also have some real estate in Lynn Lake, if anybody else is interested. Condescension in the form of government edicts does not please me at all.

How does this government know what the people require in terms of responsible civic government? How dare you-a nd I see you smirking some more, I really enjoy the look on your face , If I had a camera, beautiful-how dare you make assumptions as to what will please me the individual urbanite. Who gave you the authority to do this? I certainly did not. I was not consulted. I had to let the government know myself about my feelings. Unfortunate ly, not too many people are as articulate as myself. They do not possess the ability to question without fear or trepidation.

Therefo re, while you ponder, if you ponder, what I have said, remember that there remains the distinct possibility that I may be speaking for the residents of Point Douglas as a whole. In my community, when I speak, I am heard. I am willing to field questions . Madam Chairman: Thank you, Ms. Goodman. Are there questions of the presenter? Thank you for your presentation. Number 23, Mr. Grant Nordman; No. 24, Mr. John Harrison; No. 25, Ms. Deborah Smith. Ms. Deborah Sm ith (Choices) : Madam Chairperson, I am- Madam Chairman: Just one moment, Ms.

Smith, while your presentation is being distributed to the members of the committee. You may proceed. Ms. Smith: I am new to all of the members here and they to me. I was won dering, Madam Chairperson, if I could have some introduction. Madam Chairman: I see no problem with that. I will start over at the far corner. Would the members please identify themselves by name. Mrs. Rosemary Vodrey (Fort Garry): I am Rosemary Vodrey. I am the MLA for Fort Garry. Mr. Gerry McAlpine (Sturgeon Creek): My name is Gerry McAlpine. I am the MLA for Sturgeon Creek. Mr.

Bob Rose (Turtle Mountain): I am Bob Rose, MLA for Turtle Mountain. Mr. Ernst: Jim Ernst is my name. I am the MLA for Charleswood . Mr. Carr: My name is Jim Carr. I am the MLA for Crescentwood. Ms. Friesen: Jean Friesen, Wolseley. Mr. Jim Maloway (El mwood) : Jim Maloway, Elmwood. Ms. Smith: How do you do, all of you. My name is Deborah Smith and I am here on behalf of Choices: A Coalition for Social Justice.

July 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 112 Les Miserables Is about the disenfranchised . It is a sad irony that the fictionalized poor are glorified while Winnipeg's inner-city residents are vilified and will be silenced by the passage of Bill 68. In Choices' submission to the Winnipeg Wards Review Committee, we clearly stated our opposition to the reduction in the number if city councillors, and we were not alone in our opp ositi on.

Yet, as anticipated by many of our memb ers, many submissions like ours fell upon partisan ears of the committee whose mandate, it appears, was simply to comply with the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Ernst), not to conduct an independent study into the size of City Council. Bill68 now proposes a reduction in size of council to 15 from 29, almost half. We must reiterate our opposition to this reduction because it will hurt residents of the Inner city. These changes and others proposed by Bill 68 will be detrimental to the poor and those least able to defend themselves.

As Choices' statement of purpose states, we want a city where the poorest of our community can count on improving their quality of life rather than facing cutbacks in opportunities available to them. It makes neither economic nor social sense to offer only welfare to the poor. We want a city where the opportunities for a decent standard of living are open to all, regardless of age, gender, family status, disability, choice of neighbourhood or race. The Minister of Urban Affairs has not articulated a good reason to reduce the number of seats on City Council.

Any consideration to the number of seats should be made on the basis of mutuality of interest and the likelihood of intraward co-operation with sensitivity to the special needs of inner -city residents. Les Mise rabies of Winnipeg live in the inner city. They are the working poor, the unemployed, the destitute, the homeless, the under and uneducated, the illite rate . The inner city has a highe r concentration of new immig rants, students, aboriginal people and gay and lesbian people than the rest of the city.

Inner-city residents are often renters rather than home owners but nonetheless pay taxes indirectly through their rent. They are the perp etrators and most often the vict ims of traditionally defined crime, and they are certainly the victi ms of corporate and state crime which perpetrates a system which perpetuates their misery. Poverty, lack of education, racism and violence mitigate against assertiveness. Inner-city people have the quietest voices in the city and the provincial government seems intent on silencing them completely.

Currently, there is the potential for inner-city residents to have a voice in the level of gov ernment closes t to th em. Ward size approaches the size of provincial constituencies. Anything larger will derogate from the principle of representation by population which should be unders tood to have a qualitative , as well as quantitative, aspect. That is, not only the size of a particular population is represented, but also its unique socioeconomic, geographic and cultural feature s. Mr. Ernst thinks the word "reduction" has magical properties that will re-elect him. It is a red herring.

In fact, we believe there is ample evidence from other jurisdictions to show that the size of council has little effect on administrative costs. Cost of City Council comprise only .04 percent of the total city budget. Any reduction in the number of city councillors' salaries would be meaningless. Further, the larger ward size and the committee recommendation that councillors be full time may actually mean that councillors can expect a salary increase which would reflect full-t ime, not half- time remuneration.

In short, salaries are more likely to double, thus with half the number of councillors, the cost will be the same as it is now. * (1 200) What will be reduced over time is the cost of social services to inner city. As the voices of inner city residents are overwhelmed and silenced by the more assertive Winni peggers in larger wards, demand for inner city services will be silenced. That is not to say that the problems will go aw ay. The problems will worsen, but the people will be without representation. Mr. Ernst claims these amendments will improve the efficiency of City Council.

Because the minister has never defined "effi ciency," we can only assume that it is inefficiency in the political decision-making process and not the cost-effe ctiveness of city services delivery he refers to. Howeve r, the level of taxation and the efficiency of service delivery is much upon the minds of Winnlpeggers, so it is easy for Mr. Ernst to exploit their disaffection with City Council.

11 3 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18, 1991 The truth is that reducing the number of seats has nothing to do with service delivery, nor will it improve political efficiency. Democracy costs. It has been argued that City Council meetings are too long and that City Council and community committees are spending endless hours dealing with minute details rather than policy formati on. The most efficient City Council would be a a City Council of one. It is not democracy, but it is efficient in the Machiavellian sense of the word .

The problem with City Council is not one of political ef ficiency, but rather accountability. Efficiency and cost-effec tiveness are laudable goals worth pursuing. They must not, however, become the only incentives to changing the way we govern ourselves. Any legislative changes to The City of Winnipeg Act must be motivated by the more important goal of ensuring the dem ocratic functioning of our governing institutions. We would contend that the process adopted by the provincial government for reform of The City of Winnipeg Act is flawed.

To change any one aspect of the existing governing structure will undoubtedly have a rippling effect, making other changes necessary and leading to further alterations as new problems are created by a system thrown out of balance. This piecemeal approach will not result in a responsive, representative, efficient or democratic government at a civic level. There is little doubt that problems exist at City Hall, but we believe that these problems are rooted more in the lack of accountability at City Council than a perceived lack of efficiency .

For our city government to be conside red democratic it must be open and accountable. As the Rnal Report of the 19 86 City of Winnipeg Act Review Com mittee stated : "the process of decision-making with in city government should be as visible and as easily understood by citizens as possible. (The City of Winnipeg Act must) make certain that the decision-making process is less protracted and contusing." Choices wants citizens to have the opportunity to know Issues facing city government and to be able to identify with the public off icials who are in charge of those issues.

Clearer democratic accountability to the electorate for policy results must be encouraged. Reducing the size of council will not lead to a more democratic, accountable City Council. With fewer councillors, there will be less opportunity to meet councillors or to have concerns raised with elected offi cials. The ability to affect decisions made by the level of government closest to the people will be severely curtailed. Conversely, the ability of councillors to reflect concerns in their wards will be diminished. The best part about the civic level of government is its closeness to the bread and butter issues.

Much more than in other levels of government, city council lors mus t be famil iar with the ir neighbourhoods and even individual's concerns. Doubling the nu mber of people councillors represent will make this impossible. Rnally, a smaller council would mean the cost of financing an election campaign would be prohibitive for all but those with big business or major political party backing. Further proposals to reduce or eliminate the number of community committees in the name of streamlining administrative functions will have the same consequences as reducing the number of councillors.

Doing away with community committees will close the doors to power to all but the well connected or the financially well endowed. Furthermore, a majority of councillors have stated that participation in community committees is one of the most rewarding aspects of the job of city councillor. In stead of streamlining the decision-making process, eliminating community committees will mean that technical matters and minor variances will have to be dealt with by council as a whole or referred to the administrative bureaucracy.

In turn, this will further remove financial control and policy decisions from councillors and citizens. The cost of administering these committees is a small price to pay for accessibility to councillors and the decision-making process. We believe The City of Winnipeg Act as it now exists gives many responsibilities and powers to the community committees which they choose not to exercise. The consequence of this inaction is the administrative and financial bottleneck at City Council.

Choices would instead recommend changes in the sections of The City of Winnipeg Act pertaining to com munity comm ittees with the view to

July 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 11 4 strengthening the powers of these committees. We recommend that councillor members of community committees be subject to recall and/or be ruled ineligible for future elections if they do not develop and implement community plans or area action plans. A cornerstone of democracy is the principle that the people have the right to choose their representatives and the forms of institutions governing them. Choices argues that this basic principle is abrogated by the manner in which changes to The City of Winnipeg Act are now being proposed.

A rural- domi nated governing party in the legislature is proposing to change the city's governing institutions. Winnipeg's population com prises app roximately 60 percent of the population of Manitoba, and yet significant changes to the way Winnipeg is being governed are being proposed by a provincial government which has neither the majority of seats nor a majority of votes in Winnipeg. This committee is studying changes which a rural-based government wishes to impose on those It does not directly represent . Only after citizen initiatives and careful study should changes be made to The City of Winnipeg Act.

This is a

summary of Choices recommendations: Amendment 3(1): The size of City Council should remain the same. Any evaluation of size must take into account the features of particular communities within and/or between wards. Amendmen t 9: The number of community comm itte es should remain at six. These committees should be retained as the point where citizens can best become involved In city affa irs. Councillors should be responsible for co-ordinating and implementing area action plans with their community committees. If these action plans are not implemented, community committees would be empowered to recall councillors.

I also have an addendum to this presentation. It just came to my notice that there is discussion abroad regarding Bill 35 and the changes to the zoning act. I wish to state that Choices is opposed to these changes as they represent a reduction of notice to the public for all zoning changes. As all persons do not have access to the daily newspape r, It is necessary to insure and add an announcement to the pub lic of any zoning change by the continuance of the yellow placards posted on all respective properties. Thank you. Madam Chairman: Thank you, Ms. Smith. Would you be prepared to entertain some questions? Ms.

Smlth: Yes. Mr. Ernst: I just had one concern with regard to your comment on community committees. Your statement says: "Further proposals to reduce or eliminate the number of community committees ... ." There is no proposal to eliminate any community committees. There is a proposal to reduce the number by one given the reduced size of City Council, and in order to have adequa te representation from each of the community committees, the number of community committees is proposed to be reduced by one, to five from six. let me ask the question.

Are you aware that there is no proposal to do away with community committees or to change their function? Their function Is to continue as it has been. Ms. Smith: If you reduce the number of community commi ttees you will be di scar ding some committees. Some will take priority over others. It is necessary to retain at least that number in order to protect what we hold so dearly, which is democracy. The voice of the people cannot be heard continually by the representative s. They must have access to the committees. If you reduce that, you reduce the voice of the people. Mr.

Ernst: I will comment again with respect to community committees. If there are five community committees as opposed to six, people still have access to those five community committees. They still have the same kinds of opportunities to provide their input. • (1 21 0) The number is not chosen out of a desire to reduce the number of community committees, but to appropriately have represented equal numbers from across the city. Ms. Friesen: One ofthe consequences of reducing the number of city councillors is that the Winnipeg MlAs are going to be representing half the number of people.

A Winnipeg MLA will be representing around 20,000 and the new city councillors will be representing about 40,000. So what that means, is that the Winnipeg MLA is going to have a much closer contact, the ability to go door to door, for example, the ability to speak personally to their

115 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18, 1991 constituents, than will the new Winnipeg city councillor. I wondered if you had some reflections on that, for political life in Manitoba, or perh aps more specifically for the relationship between the province and the city. Ms. Smith: I think it is wonderful that the MLAs will have 20,000 and will have more access to the people, but it is working backward to eliminate the size of City Council. There are two different things here, from what I see.

It is necessary to give the MLAs much more access to the people and the people much more access to their elected representatives, but it is also necessary not to change that access in regard to City Council. City Council is important about the bread and butter issues, about the everyday things. It is necessary to have the people access their city councillors. If you cut back the number of city councillors, you will cut back the access. Mr. Carr: Thank you, Madam Chair. I would just like to make one point and thank you for your presentation. You talk about a rural-dominated government.

I think the record should show that the Liberal Party and the Progressive Conservative Party, which do not agree very often with one another, on this issue happen to be of one mind. All seven members of our caucus come from the city of Winnipeg. I want to make another point, maybe a more important one. That is, implicit in what you say, is that rural members of the Legislature ought to have no voice in urban reform .

That is akin to saying that a member of Winnipeg City Council from Transcona ought not to have a voice in what happens in Elmwood, or in River Heights, and that is one of the very reasons that our party supports municipal reform . While I represent the people from Crescentwood , I have a responsi bility as a memb er of the Legislature, as a legislator to pass laws which affect the people of Lynn Lake or Thompson or Killarney. The fact that the people whom I represent are from urban Winnipeg ought not to disqualify me for having an opinion on my province which I am elected to serve .

So I would not want to leave alone the implication in your brief that rural members of the Legislature ought not to have a say in urban ref orm, nor would I ever want to assume that as an urban member, that I do not have a say in agricultural policy, that I cannot speak to a bill of the Legislature that deals with rural bonds, or with hydro development in the North. We are all here to represent a community and a community of interests. I prefer the wider, broader approach to decision making and input into the legislative process rather than the more narrow one that is implicit in your brief. Madam Chairman: Ms.

Smith, did you wish to comment? Ms. Smith: It is not that the rural MLAs should not have a voice within the province. It is just saying that their jurisdictions are primarily rural. That is their primary concern, and while they have the right, and a democratic right, to have an opinion, it should be that the impetus should come from the urban MLAs. Mr. Carr: With respect, I disagree. My jurisdiction as an MLA is the province of Manitoba. I am elected by the people of Crescentwood to be a legislator for the province of Manitoba, which is my jurisdiction. So is the member from Turtle Mountain.

If he were to consider his responsibility to be only to those 15 ,000 or 20,000 people who elect him, we would have chaos here. We would have rural against urban. We would have north against south. We would have suburb against inner city. How could we possibly seek to legislate in the interests of the province if we were so narrow and parochial in our responsibility and our views that we were able to shut out the wider constituency of the province, which is really the geographic area which we are all elected to serve ? I think it is a very important point.

I do not mean to prolong the debate, but I think that point has to be made. Madam Chairman: Are there further questions? If not, thank you very much for your presentation, Ms. Smith. Mrs. Julia Boon. Good morning. Mrs. Boon. You may proce ed. Your prese ntation has been distributed to members of the committee. Mrs. Julia Boon (Private Citizen): Thank you, Madam Chairman. Ladies and gentlemen, I am here to share my opinion, and I will start with an English saying that "too many cooks spoil the soup. w If one takes into consideration the city's population

July 18, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 116 English saying that "too many cooks spoil the soup." If one takes into consideration the city's population distribution compared to other large cities, there are too many councillors-297 A large City Council does not mean that citizens are well represented. The more wards there are, the more competition, antagonism and parochialism there is. The decision-making process becomes lengthy and difficult because of the cumbersome size of council. A team approach?-1 do not think that there is a team approach.

When today ther e so many unem ploye d Canadians and immigrants as well, when the welfare system is swo llen up to the point that it will burst pretty soon, it is time for councillors-not only the councillors, but all of us-to become aware of the real situation of Winnipeg and gracefully accept the reduction of the size of council. A smaller council, in my opinion, will manage the civic affairs more ef ficiently. This is all I have to say. Thank you. Madam Chairman: Thank you, Mrs. Boon. Would you be prepared to entertain questions if there are any? Mrs. Boon: Yes, to the best of my ability.

Madam Chairman: Thank you. No questions. Thank you for your presentation. Number 27, Mr. David Brown; No. 28, Mr. Mike O'Shaughnessy; No. 29, Mr. Gordon Mackie; No. 30, Mr. Bernie WoHe; No. 31 , Mr. G. Hewitt; No. 32, Dr. Jim Shapiro. I understand there are now people in attendance whose names I called earlier, so I will revert back to the list. I also understand that we have an additional presenter wishing to make presentation whose name is on the bottom of the list, but I will revert back now to calling the people that were not here when I called earlier. Number one- 1 see, and I believe Mr.

George Marshall is now present. I would just like to remind all those sitting in the audience who wish to make presentation thatthis committee will recess at 1 2:30. Our normal sitting time in the morning is 10 to 12: 30 because we are still in session. It is expected that this committee will reconvene this evening, and I am sorry, but at this point I do not have the specific time. We are suggesting perhaps, same as last evening, seven o'clock. • (1 220) Thank you for your patience, Mr. Marshall. I believe all members of the committee now have received a copy of your presentation. You may proceed. Mr.

George Marshall (Private Citizen): Thank you, Madam Chairman, members of committee. I will just briefly go through my history. It may not be relevant to the committee, but it may give some understanding as to how I have formed my views . I am a graduate of Daniel Mac. I hold a Certificate in Management from the University of Manitoba, a Bachelor of Arts from the University of Winnipeg in political science and economics, a Master of Public Affairs degree from the University of Manitoba. I am a graduate of Francais Oral at College universitaire de Saint-Boniface .

In my political experience, I was an alderman from 1 966 to 19 71 and what is relevant about that is I may perhaps be the only person appearing before committee who has experience in a suburban council prior to Unicity and on Winnipeg City Council itself. I was a school trustee in the Transcona Springfield School Division. I was a table officer with MAST; a member of the Nicholls commission on Education Finance and I was a member of City Council from 19 86 to 19 89. Agai n, further background -! was born in Winnipeg's west end, of Scottish and Icelandic parents.

My grandfather on my mother's side, I understand, was a sea captain working north out of Iceland. I did not think anything was north of Iceland. My fath er and his father before him were shipbuilders at Glasgow on Clyde, Newcastle on Tyne and at Belfast where my father was born. I can say with some truth that when the Icelandic fishing fleet takes on the British navy, that our family has a stake on both sides. The point of all this is, that unlike my ancestors, I was born in the inner city. I grew up in the inner city. I was educated in the inner city. I hold one of my degrees from the downtown university.

Although I represented a suburban area in local government for 26 years-and I still cannot believe it-1 need no lecture from others, whether they were born here or whether they were not, with respect to the inner city. I have always felt that downtown belongs to everyone. This is a feeling that in both my view and my experience is shared by the vast majority of Winnipeggers. Perhaps a notable exception are

117 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 18, 1991 some local politicians who, caught up in a parochial model of governance, are prepared, and I quote directly, to make a deal with the devil if it will help my ward.

Recommendation No. 1- again, based on my past experience: This committee should support and confirm the minister's intent: 1. to strengthen leadership; 2. to encourage long-term vision; 3. to enhance and to encourage a strategic city-wide planning process; 4. to simplify an unwieldy decision-making process; 5. to restore the direction of the civic government to the elected of ficials; 6. to respond to the need for clearly defined authority, responsibility and accountability; 7. to clarify public access to the process of government; 8. to preserve equitable representation that is appropriate, that meets functional needs and that observes the social, cultural, historic and natural features of the city; and 9. to correct a civic structure that presently engenders and rewards parochialism.

Recommendation No. 2: The committee should sup port and confirm exis ting legislation and proposed legislation changes which will realize and complement the minister's intent: 1. that the mayor be elected at large; 2. that the mayor should appoint the standing committee chairs; 3. that the council should be elected for three years; 4. that the mayor should be the chair of council and that the role of the presiding officer should be dropped; I also believe that the deputy mayor should chair the executive policy committee, but I will leave that to the council to decide. 5. that the internal political structure of the council should be determined by the elected council which has the ultimate responsibility to the people for the operation of the council; 6. that the internal administrative structure of the city should be determined by the elected council, which has the ultimate responsibility of the people for the operation of the city; 7. that the indemnities of council and the administrative support to councillors should be determined by the council itself; 8. that pie-shaped wards should be rejected, and instead wards should meet the social, cultural, historical and natural features of the city; 9. council lors sh ould be elec ted in single-member wards ; 1 0. no more councillors should be elected than is necessary to staff the model that the minister has chosen; 11. that the community committee should not be a legislative mandate but should instead be a choice of the council; I want to dwell on that for a moment.

In the five years when I was a member of a suburban council, we had the power to levy and we were only 4 percent of Winnipeg. In that five-year period in the run up to Unicity, we built the Roland Michener Indoor Arena; we built the Centennial Swimming Pool; we built the police station presently used by District 4; we put in $5 million worth of storm sewe rs; we created the CN Industrial Park; and we attracted the Freshwater fish plant to Transcona. There are only two in Canada. One is in Nova Scotia and it is saltwater.

We also contributed to the Centennial Hall complex which was provincially driven and the Centennial Concert Hall which was Metro driven. We also contributed to the Pan-Am Games. That was in a five-year perio

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-2-ma3
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 2nd hansardpdf ma3.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	43f347d7418751289607610870c0478732441868

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