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June 12, 2002

37th Parliament, 3rd Session

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Hansard Transcripts

vol. A

Hansard Transcripts

vol. B

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

Hansard Transcripts 2002-Jun-12 (PDF)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ONTARIO

ASSEMBLÉE LÉGISLATIVE DE L'ONTARIO

Wednesday 12 June 2002 Mercredi 12 juin 2002

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

BIOTECHNOLOGY

GOLDEN JUBILEE OF

QUEEN ELIZABETH II

ASSISTANCE TO FARMERS

FRENCH-LANGUAGE SERVICES

CAMBRIDGE SPORTS HALL OF FAME

HOSPITAL SERVICES

EVENTS IN DURHAM

PHILIPPINES INDEPENDENCE DAY

BIRR UNITED CHURCH

ANNUAL REPORT, INFORMATION AND

PRIVACY COMMISSIONER

COMMISSIONERS OF ESTATE BILLS

CONSIDERATION OF BILL 118

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

CANADA AND ONTARIO

FLAG DAYS ACT, 2002 /

LOI DE 2002

SUR LES JOURS DES DRAPEAUX

DU CANADA ET DE L'ONTARIO

ELECTION AMENDMENT ACT, 2002 /

LOI DE 2002

MODIFIANT LA LOI ÉLECTORALE

ANIMAL CRUELTY

PREVENTION ACT, 2002 /

LOI DE 2002

SUR LA PROTECTION DES ANIMAUX

VISITORS

ORAL QUESTIONS

HYDRO ONE

SPECIAL EDUCATION

HYDRO ONE

SPECIAL EDUCATION

ASSISTANCE TO FLOOD VICTIMS

CHILDREN'S HEALTH SERVICES

WOMEN IN

SKILLED TRADES PROGRAM

ASSISTANCE TO FLOOD VICTIMS

MINISTRY SPENDING

MUNICIPAL LEGISLATION

HYDRO ONE

PETITIONS

CHILDREN'S HEALTH SERVICES

ONTARIO DISABILITY

SUPPORT PROGRAM

PUBLIC SECTOR COMPENSATION

AUDIOLOGY SERVICES

ONTARIO DISABILITY

SUPPORT PROGRAM

MEDICAL SCHOOL TUITION

ONTARIO DISABILITY

SUPPORT PROGRAM

COMPETITIVE ELECTRICITY MARKET

CHILDREN'S HEALTH SERVICES

OPTOMETRISTS

CHILDREN'S HEALTH SERVICES

OPPOSITION DAY

LONG-TERM CARE /

SOINS DE LONGUE DURÉE

The House met at 1330.

Prayers.

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

BIOTECHNOLOGY

Mr Monte Kwinter (York Centre): The BIO 2002 convention being held in Toronto has attracted over 14,000 biotechnology scientists, executives and policy leaders representing 45 countries. BIO 2002 is covering such topics as religion and biotechnology, bioethics and the boardroom, biodefence and security, and intellectual property.

The Canadian biotechnology industry mushroomed in the 1990s. Revenues are projected to surpass $5 billion in 2002, up from $1.9 billion in 1999. Exports will grow to nearly $1.7 billion.

Canada is home to 358 biotechnology companies, the second-greatest number in the world. Some 40% of all Canadian biotechnology companies work in the health care sector. Over 67,000 people are employed by biotechnology companies, and employment forecasts expect 10% growth per year.

On every continent, including Antarctica, and even in outer space, researchers are using biotechnology. The technological breakthroughs of recent years have had far-ranging effects on health care, diagnostics, nutrition, agriculture and industry, and have convinced the world that biotechnology is paving the way to an exciting future in which individualized medicine, early intervention, healthier foods, pest-resistant crops, bio-based fuels and environmentally friendly industrial processes reign supreme.

There are numerous and considerable challenges ahead, but there is no doubt that biotechs will play a major role in Ontario's economy.

GOLDEN JUBILEE OF

QUEEN ELIZABETH II

Mr Toby Barrett (Haldimand-Norfolk-Brant): I pay tribute to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II during her 50th year on the throne. On June 2, I attended a Golden Jubilee Sunday. It was held at Simcoe's St Paul's Presbyterian Church, a service conducted by Rev John Cruickshank.

February 6, 1952, is an important day in Canadian history. It marks the accession of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II and the beginning of a very special relationship between Canada and its new Queen. Over the past 50 years, Her Majesty has maintained a very visible and significant presence in Canada and has been witness to many historic occasions.

While much has changed in our royal relationship since 1952, our Queen obviously plays a significant role in the lives of all of us. Here at Queen's Park, the imprint of Her Majesty can be witnessed all around. Our newly named Lieutenant Governor, James Bartleman, is the next in a long line of proud representatives of the Queen in Ontario.

This fall, Golden Jubilee celebrations will see Queen Elizabeth visit communities both large and small across the province. I encourage the people of this province to celebrate Her Majesty's Golden Jubilee. She is our Queen.

God save the Queen.

ASSISTANCE TO FARMERS

Mr Steve Peters (Elgin-Middlesex-London): Last week, the Premier went to Guelph, supposedly to listen to and consult with provincial leaders in agriculture and agribusiness. You know what, though? He didn't do that. Instead, he turned around and gave them a lecture. The Premier said that the days of looking to government cheques as the only answer are over and that farmers need to get their act together. This government needs to get its act together.

A year and a half ago, you promised our farmers a made-in-Ontario safety net program. The proposal was agreed to in principle one year ago -- last June -- but you've yet to deliver on that promise. The message coming out of agriculture has been clear and consistent for the last several years and farmers are outraged at your latest insult. Stephen Thompson, who farms a few thousand acres in Huron county, says, "You promised the program. You need to deliver the program." Jeff Ferguson, a farmer outside of St Thomas, says, "I'm appalled by your attitude. I don't believe farmers ever asked you to cure all their ills."

To adopt an agricultural vision for the long term, this government must deal with the crisis facing the agricultural community today. In next Monday's budget, our farmers want to see that made-in-Ontario safety net program with all the necessary funding in place.

The Premier needs to take some leadership and make up his mind. Either he's going to sit back and watch agriculture wither away or he's going to act unilaterally for the good of our farmers. I'm calling on this Premier to get his act together. Stop blaming farmers for global problems beyond their control and table the much-anticipated made-in-Ontario safety net program now.

FRENCH-LANGUAGE SERVICES

Imaginez ma surprise l'autre jour quand j'ai reçu une invitation de notre ministre M. Baird, qui s'appelle le ministre responsable des affaires francophones, une belle invitation pour aller au premier anniversaire de l'adoption du drapeau franco-ontarien qu'on va avoir ici la Saint-Jean-Baptiste. Laissez-moi lire l'invitation que j'ai eue de mon ministre délégué aux affaires francophones :

"The minister responsible for francophone affairs, the Honourable John Baird, invites you to celebrate the first anniversary...," blah, blah.

CAMBRIDGE SPORTS HALL OF FAME

Mr Gerry Martiniuk (Cambridge): More good news from Cambridge. I rise today to join the Cambridge Sports Hall of Fame and Cambridge families in recognizing the great accomplishments of local athletes and team builders.

On Saturday May 4, 2002, the Cambridge Sports Hall of Fame officially inducted intercounty baseball legend Wray Upper, NHL great Jim Schoenfeld, skating pairs Katherina Matousek and Lloyd Eisler, horseman William Wellwood and junior golf executives Joyce and Jack Leggat. Cambridge families and I are proud of these athletes and team builders. They are a true example of dedication and commitment in their chosen area of sport and an excellent role model for youth.

I would like to congratulate Cambridge Sports Hall of Fame co-chairs Cam Allan and Al Findley who, along with others, will soon celebrate the hall of fame's expansion from a 200-square-foot to a 2,000-square-foot venue at the Cambridge Centre shopping complex. May I extend my best wishes to volunteers at the Cambridge Sports Hall of Fame. This organization will soon realize its goal of becoming the best municipal sports hall of fame in Canada.

HOSPITAL SERVICES

Mrs Sandra Pupatello (Windsor West): With regret I bring yet another announcement to this Legislature of yet another program cut at London Health Sciences Centre.

Dr Grace takes on the most high-risk, extremely obese patients for gastroplasty and gastric bypass. This bariatric surgery, or stomach stapling, is barely available anywhere in Ontario. He receives five to 10 calls per week and now he knows there is nowhere else to send these patients. Of the nine surgeons who perform this surgery in Ontario -- seen as the last hope for obese people -- six are taking no new patients. The remaining three have waits of up to two years.

The number of obese people in Ontario is growing, and this last resort must be available to them. These people suffer from hypertension, respiratory problems, diabetes, heart disease and stroke. This procedure saves lives.

I'm asking the Minister of Health to have this program reinstated. This cut is about saving money. This program ought to be about saving lives. I ask the minister, if you don't reinstate the program because you know that people want and need to be healthier, then you must reinstate the program because of the enormous savings to the health care system once these people are well. I ask the minister again, have this program reinstated at the London Health Sciences Centre.

EVENTS IN DURHAM

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Members' statements? The member for Durham.

Mr John O'Toole (Durham): Thank you, Mr Speaker -- and the most educated Speaker, I might say.

I'd like to rise in the House to pay tribute to some of the young people of my riding and the accomplishments they've achieved.

First I would like to mention the Darlington under-18 boys' soccer team and the Darlington under-16 team, who both will attend the Gothia Cup in Sweden this summer. This is an excellent opportunity for travel and international soccer experience. Darlington will be among 1,200 teams participating in one of the world's largest youth soccer tournaments. I'd like to congratulate Jim Potter, coach of the under-16 team, and Dave Staley, coach of the under-18 team of Darlington. I'm sure we wish the parents, coaching staff and players success in their trip and on the field.

Moving to a different field, I would like to pay tribute to the music students at Cartwright High School and Bowmanville High School for their success in competitions this past spring.

Bowmanville High School attended the Heritage International Music Festival in Montreal. The students achieved the following results: gold medal and first place in senior band, gold medal and first place in senior choir, silver medal and first place in women's chorus, and silver medal for the jazz band. I'd like to commend the BHS music students for their achievement and also pay tribute to the hard work of the band parents' association as well as their teacher-conductors Shawn Hills, Kevin Chocorlan and Michael Menheere.

Finally, congratulations are in order to Cartwright High School, under the direction of teacher John Beirness. The Cartwright band achieved gold in Quebec City.

Durham is proud of the accomplishments of our young people. We're happy to share and celebrate their success with the members of the House today.

PHILIPPINES INDEPENDENCE DAY

Mr Tony Ruprecht (Davenport): On behalf of Dalton McGuinty and the Liberal Party, I rise to pay special tribute to those Filipino Canadians who are here today and joining us, because they are celebrating the 104th anniversary of Philippine independence.

Applause.

Mr Ruprecht: Thank you. When we see the Filipino flag, we honour a nation and a people who had to fight with every ounce of their strength against tyranny and the yoke of dictatorship. Even in this generation of Filipino Canadians, every Filipino who has reached at least 20 years of age will remember that the battle scars against tyranny and dictatorship are on their backs, and to them we owe a great deal of gratitude.

What do these Filipino Canadians really want? They want nothing else but to structure their own future. They want nothing else but to determine their own destiny. They want nothing else but to maintain that the torch of freedom is being passed on from this generation to the next.

So we know that together, when they come to Canada, we can raise the flag, we can raise the standard. We say to these Canadians of Filipino background, Mabuhay ang Filipinas. Long live Philippines. Long live Canada. Long live freedom and long live democracy.

BIRR UNITED CHURCH

Mr Bert Johnson (Perth-Middlesex): I rise today to congratulate Birr United Church in, of course, beautiful downtown Birr, Ontario -- the member for Scarborough-Agincourt will know exactly where it is in county Middlesex -- on its 100th anniversary.

On June 3, 1902, a cornerstone-laying ceremony was held. It was attended by members of the community and the church congregation. The ceremony was also attended by Sir Adam Beck. The total cost of the building and horse shed was about $4,000.

A special worship service and celebration was held two Sundays ago along with a ceremonial rededication of the church building.

Over the past several years, the congregation of the Birr United Church has been working hard to renovate and restore the church. A new roof has been installed and the exterior trim has been painted. Plaster has been repaired, windows reglazed, the sanctuary has been given a fresh coat of paint and much of the woodwork has been refinished. Many of the windows have also been uncovered and refurbished.

I want to commend the anniversary chairperson, Ken White, and Reverend Bill McAuslan for their hard work and commitment to make this event a great success. I also want to take this opportunity to recognize the efforts of the friends and the parishioners of Birr United Church for taking pride in their church, for helping to ensure that the church endures another 100 years. Please join me in recognizing Birr United Church on their 100th anniversary.

ANNUAL REPORT, INFORMATION AND

PRIVACY COMMISSIONER

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): I beg to inform the House that I have today laid upon the table the 2001 Annual Report of the Information and Privacy Commissioner.

COMMISSIONERS OF ESTATE BILLS

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): I also beg to inform the House that the Clerk received a favourable report from the Commissioners of Estate Bills with respect to Bill Pr5,

An Act respecting Groves Memorial Community Hospital.

Accordingly, pursuant to standing order 86(e), the bill and the report stand referred to the standing committee on regulations and private bills.

CONSIDERATION OF BILL 118

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Yesterday, the chief government whip raised a point of order concerning Bill 118,

An Act to amend the Ontario Disability Support Program Act, 1997 to require annual cost-of-living adjustments to income support payments, standing in the name of the member for Sault Ste Marie, Mr Martin.

The chief government whip contended that Bill 118 contravenes standing order 56 because it would require the expenditure of public funds.

I have carefully reviewed the chief government whip's comments, and both Bill 118 and the Ontario Disability Support Program Act, 1997, which Bill 118 seeks to amend.

At first glance, Bill 118 would appear to require money to be spent by indexing support payments to the cost of living. However, the bill must be read in the wider context of the parent act it amends.

The bill, if passed, would permit, not compel, the Lieutenant Governor in Council -- the cabinet -- to make a regulation which, if made, would constitute a charge on the consolidated revenue fund.

The operative word in

section 55 of the parent act, though, is "may." Bill 118 would add one more class of regulation, in addition to 50 others already enumerated in the section, which the Lieutenant Governor in Council "may" make. The effective part of the act is entirely permissive. If the permitted regulation is never made, there is no impact on the consolidated revenue fund. On the other hand, if the permitted regulation is made, then the ensuing expenditure will have been approved by the executive council, consistent with standing order 56 and the related general conventions around public financial administration.

I therefore do not concur with the chief government whip that Bill 118 contravenes standing order 56 by imposing a charge on the treasury, and I find Bill 118 to be in order.

Mr Peter Kormos (Niagara Centre): Thank you kindly, Speaker, for your consideration of that matter.

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

CANADA AND ONTARIO

FLAG DAYS ACT, 2002 /

LOI DE 2002

SUR LES JOURS DES DRAPEAUX

DU CANADA ET DE L'ONTARIO

Mr Gilchrist moved first reading of the following bill:

Bill 98,

An Act to proclaim Canada Flag Day and Ontario Flag Day / Projet de loi 98, Loi proclamant le Jour du drapeau du Canada et le Jour du drapeau de l'Ontario.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

The member for a short statement?

Mr Steve Gilchrist (Scarborough East): This bill would seek to recognize something that I suspect should have been recognized back 37 years ago. It came as quite a shock to me to realize that there has never been an official proclamation of the day that either Canada's flag was adopted, or the Ontario flag.

Recognizing the work done by the then Lieutenant Governor, Lieutenant Colonel the Honourable John Keiller MacKay, and by Leslie Frost, the Premier, when the flag debate first started in Ottawa, that we would in Ontario at least maintain the red ensign as a symbol of our history and tradition, I think it's quite appropriate that May 21, the day in 1965 when the Ontario flag was formally proclaimed, be proclaimed permanently as our flag day and, while we're on the subject, that February 15 of each year be proclaimed as Canada Flag Day here in Ontario.

ELECTION AMENDMENT ACT, 2002 /

LOI DE 2002

MODIFIANT LA LOI ÉLECTORALE

Mr Conway moved first reading of the following bill:

Bill 100,

An Act to amend the Election Act / Projet de loi 100, Loi modifiant la Loi électorale.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

The member for a short statement?

Mr Sean G. Conway (Renfrew-Nipissing-Pembroke): It was several months ago that a constituent of mine named Herman Wellstein, from RR 7 Pembroke, came to my office and asked a very simple question: "Why, in provincial general elections in Ontario, does not the ballot carry clearly the party affiliation of all of the candidates running in that election?" I had no good answer, and my bill today seeks to amend the Ontario Election Act to very simply and conveniently provide that, going forward in Ontario provincial general elections, the provincial ballot will actually not only carry the name of the candidates but their party affiliations as well.

ANIMAL CRUELTY

PREVENTION ACT, 2002 /

LOI DE 2002

SUR LA PROTECTION DES ANIMAUX

Mr Colle moved first reading of the following bill:

Bill 105,

An Act to protect puppies and other animals from cruelty by amending the Ontario Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act / Projet de loi 105, Loi visant à protéger les chiots et les autres animaux en modifiant la

Loi sur la Société de protection des animaux de l'Ontario.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

The member for a short statement?

Mr Mike Colle (Eglinton-Lawrence): The purpose of this act is to update and strengthen the 80-year-old provincial law in order to give animal protection agencies the tools they need to do their job of protecting animals from systemic abuse as evidenced by the over 400 puppy mills that operate freely and openly in every community across this province. This act makes it a provincial offence to abuse animals and allows the court to impose lifetime bans on puppy mill operations and others who blatantly and grossly abuse animals.

The bill also prohibits persons from training animals to fight other animals and also makes it a provincial offence to obstruct animal protection officers from doing their job. If this bill is passed, it will make a number of amendments to strengthen and update the Ontario Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act.

VISITORS

Mr Mike Colle (Eglinton-Lawrence): On a point of order, with us today in the visitors' gallery we have the principal, staff and students from one of Canada's finest schools, Central Technical School. They're here today supporting the introduction of my bill to protect animals from cruelty, and they've asked me today to give the Premier and his partner, Isabel, T-shirts from the school --

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): It's not a point of order. I thought you were going to introduce them.

Mr Rick Bartolucci (Sudbury): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: On a very serious note, I would seek unanimous consent for second and third reading of Bill 70,

An Act to amend the Occupational Health and Safety Act with respect to acts of workplace violence.

The Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House? I'm afraid I heard some noes.

Mr Dwight Duncan (Windsor-St Clair): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: It has come to my attention that moments ago the Premier of Ontario, just outside this chamber, made a major announcement with respect to the now-cancelled, as I understand it, initial public offering of Ontario Hydro.

I would ask you, sir, in your capacity as Speaker to review this announcement given that it was done outside of the chamber, it's a matter of major government policy with no opportunity for either of the opposition parties to properly prepare or respond to it and it does, sir, in our view represent yet another kick at the Legislature and the process that has been established and agreed to by the three parties for major announcements of this nature.

The Speaker: I thank the member. As he knows, the Speaker does not control where statements are made, unfortunately.

Mr Duncan: On a point of order, Mr Speaker: The official opposition has been informed that the Premier of Ontario will at least be here to answer questions today. I don't see him in his chair, and question period is supposed to start.

The Speaker: The chief government whip may have some information for us.

Hon John R. Baird (Associate Minister of Francophone Affairs): Speaker, the Premier is on his way.

The Speaker: What we could possibly do is maybe stand down the first question.

Mr Peter Kormos (Niagara Centre): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: If I could be of assistance, standing down the official opposition's first questions may be of assistance, but it will be impossible to stand ours down and achieve any remedial effect.

Mr Bartolucci: On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I move unanimous consent for second and third reading of Bill 146,

An Act to amend the Compensation for Victims of Crime Act and the Solicitors Act.

The Speaker: The member is asking for unanimous consent. I'm afraid I heard some noes.

Mr Michael Gravelle (Thunder Bay-Superior North): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I would like to seek unanimous consent to move third reading, if I may, of Bill 9,

An Act to bring health and safety programs to Ontario students, a very important piece of legislation.

The Speaker: The member has asked for third reading of Bill 9. Is there unanimous consent? I'm afraid I heard some noes.

Mr Bartolucci: On a point of order, Mr speaker: I move unanimous consent for second and third reading of Bill 128,

An Act to permit the naming of highway bridges and other structures on the King's Highway in memory of police officers who have died in the line of duty.

The Speaker: Is there unanimous consent? I'm afraid I heard some noes.

Mrs Marie Bountrogianni (Hamilton Mountain): On a point of order, Mr speaker: I move the passing of third reading of Bill 53,

An Act requiring the disclosure of payments to former public sector employees arising from the termination of their employment.

The Speaker: Is there unanimous consent? I heard some noes.

Mr John Gerretsen (Kingston and the Islands): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I think every member of the House will agree with this particular unanimous consent that I'm requesting with respect to Bill 21, and that is to give second reading to Bill 21,

An Act to amend the Public Transportation and Highway Improvement Act to name Highway 417 the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Highway. I'm asking that, Speaker.

The Speaker: Is there unanimous consent? I heard some noes.

Mr John O'Toole (Durham): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I seek unanimous consent of the House to pass second and third reading of Bill 52,

An Act to amend the Legislative Assembly Act.

The Speaker: The member has asked for unanimous consent. I'm afraid I heard some noes.

Mr Bartolucci: On a point of order, Mr speaker: I move unanimous consent for second and third reading of Bill 136,

An Act to amend the Highway Traffic Act with respect to motorcycle and bicycle helmets.

The Speaker: The member is seeking unanimous consent. I'm afraid I heard some noes.

Mr Bartolucci: On a point of order, Mr speaker: I move unanimous consent for second and third reading of

An Act to amend the Highway Traffic Act in respect of studded tires.

The Speaker: Is there unanimous consent? There are some noes.

Mr O'Toole: Speaker, I seek unanimous consent of the House to pass Bill 35,

An Act proclaiming Irish Heritage Day, in Ontario.

The Speaker: Is there unanimous consent? I'm afraid I heard some noes.

Mr Colle: On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I seek unanimous consent that would allow for the singing or playing of our national anthem, O Canada, in this Legislature at least once a week.

The Speaker: Is there unanimous consent? There were some noes.

Mr Bartolucci: On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I seek unanimous consent for second and third reading of Bill 24,

An Act to amend the Municipal Act with respect to adult entertainment parlours.

The Speaker: Is there unanimous consent? I heard some noes.

Mr Gilles Bisson (Timmins-James Bay): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I ask for unanimous consent that we send an invitation to the Premier of Ontario to attend question period.

The Speaker: That one we're not even going to put forward.

Mr Dave Levac (Brant): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I seek unanimous consent for second and third reading of Bill 137,

An Act to amend the Private Investigators and Security Guards Act to require a minimum level of training for licensees and to require that uniforms and vehicles of security guards be readily distinguishable from those of the police.

The Speaker: Is there unanimous consent? I heard some noes.

Mr Steve Gilchrist (Scarborough East): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: In the spirit of co-operation that I see blooming in the House here today, I would seek permission to request second and third reading of the bill I tabled today,

An Act to proclaim Canada Flag Day and Ontario Flag Day in Ontario.

The Speaker: The member has asked for unanimous consent. I'm afraid I heard some noes.

Mr Pat Hoy (Chatham-Kent Essex): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I seek unanimous consent for second and third reading of Bill 153,

An Act to improve safety in highway construction zones by amending various Acts to implement the recommendations from the inquest into the death of Dick Van Rooyen.

The Speaker: He's asked for unanimous consent. I heard some noes.

Mr Bisson: On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I would seek unanimous consent to allow each of the political parties five minutes to comment on the announcement the Premier just made outside the assembly as we have not had an opportunity to comment.

The Speaker: Is there unanimous consent? There were some noes.

Mr Mario Sergio (York West): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: Given the events over the last few days, I would like to move second and third readings of Bill 13,

An Act to amend the Electricity Act, 1998 to ensure that the transmission corridors remain provincial assets to be used for public transit, recreational and similar purposes.

The Speaker: Is there unanimous consent? I heard some noes.

ORAL QUESTIONS

HYDRO ONE

Mr Dalton McGuinty (Leader of the Opposition): My question is to the Premier. Let me begin, Premier, by saying how pleased I am that you've come around to my way of thinking with respect to Hydro One.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): We'll just wait. Order.

The leader of the official opposition has the first question.

Mr McGuinty: Premier, I think your passing reference to the fact that the IPO is off the table is characteristic of your complete and absolute mismanagement of the Hydro file.

At one time the IPO was on the table; then it was off the table; now it's under the table. There may be some three, four, five or other options out there with respect to the future of Hydro One. At first you had confidence in the board, then you fired the board and now you've hired a brand new board. Apparently we have a chair who is there on an interim basis only. We have a president and CEO whose future hangs in real doubt. Is not the responsible thing to do here, given these circumstances, to withdraw your bill?

Hon Ernie Eves (Premier, Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs): If I'm going to adopt the leader of the official opposition's position on every single issue, that gives me a heck of a lot of latitude on almost anything.

With respect to his specific --

Interjection.

The Speaker: Member for Hamilton East, come to order, please. Premier.

Hon Mr Eves: It seems to be tough to get this matter through to the leader of the official opposition. The reason the bill is in the House is to clarify the ownership rights of the people of Ontario as represented through the province. We've said that from day one.

Interjection.

Hon Mr Eves: Well, I'm sure you didn't, Gerard.

Interjections.

The Speaker: It's too noisy. The Premier has the floor.

Hon Mr Eves: The leader of the official opposition would know that the interim board is there until there is an annual meeting held by August 15 of this year. It has never been a secret that it's an interim board, that they're there for that period of time.

The reason we replaced the former board was very simple. We asked the former board to take the appropriate corrective action with respect to certain compensation and severance --

The Speaker: The Premier's time is up. Supplementary.

Mr McGuinty: Premier, you're making my case for me. We have an interim board. For all intents and purposes, we may very well have only an interim CEO and president, depending on whether or not they work out her salary package.

We're talking about a multi-billion dollar transaction. We're talking about our one and only electricity highway here in the province of Ontario. As a result of your complete lack of leadership on this file, as a result of your dithering and fiddling, you have introduced uncertainty into the Ontario economy like never before. The Premier may laugh at this, but you have somehow managed, at one and the same time, to alienate both Bay Street and Main Street when it comes to your handling of the hydro file. Until you decide, sir, what kind of leadership you want to bring to Ontario Hydro, is not the responsible thing to do to take your bill off the table?

Hon Mr Eves: Absolutely not. That's not the responsible thing to do.

Mrs Sandra Pupatello (Windsor West): Why do you still need it?

Hon Mr Eves: Because we are going to bring some private sector discipline to Hydro One, whether it's through a strategic partner, whether it's through an income trust --

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. Sorry to interrupt the Premier. We'll give him his full minute. We sometimes lose time. You'll get the full minute if we ever get back.

Premier, sorry for the interruption.

Hon Mr Eves: I would say to the leader of the official opposition that we may have the odd detractor on Bay Street but I believe we have none on Main Street as the result of the decision made today.

Mr McGuinty: Premier, I want to remind Ontarians, because you seem reluctant to do so, what it is you are prepared to do with respect to your bill. You're not foreclosing any possibility whatsoever. Your bill will allow you to sell off Hydro One or do whatever the heck else you're planning to do, if at some point in time you in fact make up your mind. That's what your bill allows you to do: absolutely anything and everything with respect to the future of Hydro One.

You want us to pass this over the course of the next two weeks without any determination whatsoever of exactly what you intend to do. Your mismanagement of the Hydro file is going to go down in the annals of history as something that is beyond compare.

You still don't know what to do with Hydro One. At first you had confidence in the board. Then you fired the board, and now we have an interim board. Now you tell us the IPO is off the table -- there are three, four or five other options that are floating out there.

Premier, I ask you again: until you make some kind of decision as to what you plan to do with Hydro One, isn't it the responsible thing to take the bill off the table?

Hon Mr Eves: Which day would you like me to take your advice on, December 12, 2001?

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. Would both members for Windsor come to order, please.

Interjections.

The Speaker: I almost hate to get back to question period, the comments were so good. Sorry, Premier.

Hon Mr Eves: The Leader of the Opposition asks us to listen to the people of Ontario. We've done exactly that. He stood up at the beginning of his first question and complimented the government on making a decision, and now, two supplementaries later, he doesn't think we've made a decision. I wish he'd get it straight in his own mind before he poses the question.

SPECIAL EDUCATION

Mr Dalton McGuinty (Leader of the Opposition): My question is to the Minister of Education. As you know, Minister, there are 40,000 children in Ontario waiting for special education assessments and placements. I believe we have an obligation to help these kids find success. You have put in place an assessment process that is robbing these kids of the help they need.

I want to quote Michael Moher, director of education at the Windsor-Essex Catholic District School Board: "Staff has spent thousands of hours doing assessments, writing reports and filling out forms. Paperwork has become a top priority and students are not being serviced in the manner they require. This is what happens when you try to centralize something that shouldn't be centralized."

Minister, my "kids can't wait" plan gets rid of your bureaucratic nightmare and invests the money saved in helping our kids. Will you help special-ed kids by adopting my plan?

Hon Elizabeth Witmer (Deputy Premier, Minister of Education): Our government has always been extremely committed to ensuring that the needs of students with special needs, particularly the group that I think you're going to be talking about today -- high-needs students -- are addressed. But I do want to point out the fact that the number you are using, as you well know, is a very unscientific number. I think it's important to recognize that the methodology that was used was certainly not accurate and was based on a very small sample by another group.

I can tell the member opposite that if he takes a look at the history of what's happened in this province over the years, all students have not had equal opportunities to access special education services. What we have put in place is an attempt to ensure there is appropriate programming and resources for all children in this province no matter where they live.

Mr McGuinty: Minister, if you're not happy with the number provided by People for Education, then I ask that you table your number.

I want to tell you about Taylor. He's sitting on your right in the gallery. He's seven years of age, and he's from Ottawa. He's in grade 1. He loves to fish, and he has one proud big brother. He and his dad have travelled a long way today to ask for your help.

Taylor has a non-verbal learning disorder, and he needs the help of an educational assistant in a small classroom. With that little bit of help, Taylor will do, and in fact has done, very well. But now Taylor is in a regular classroom and has lost his educational assistant. He now gets just four hours a year of extra help. He used to get two hours a day.

Madam Minister, I believe we owe it to Taylor to ensure that he gets absolutely everything he needs to find success in life. His father is telling me that because he's not getting the help he used to get, he's going to have to repeat grade 1 next year. I feel that Taylor and kids like him around the province can't wait. I'm asking you to change the bureaucratic process to help --

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): The member's time is up. Minister?

Hon Mrs Witmer: Our government has been very committed to special education funding, providing the support for the students. There are many, many children in this province and we have put in place a process whereby we have increased funding since 1998 by 17%. We are presently providing $1.37 billion. We are requiring that all school boards provide the appropriate services that are needed to the students, and we are right now continuing our efforts to ensure that all children, whether they live in Fort Frances, Ottawa, Leamington or Exeter, Ontario, have the same opportunity.

I can assure you we will continue to do what we have the last five years. We will provide the funding for children in this province, as we have. We've increased it by 17% and we will continue to do so.

Mr McGuinty: Madam Minister, up in the gallery is Hilary Esmonde-White, on behalf of her nine-year-old daughter, Anna. Anna won a three-year battle with cancer, but the chemo she needed to save her life left her brain damaged. She needs one-on-one help in the classroom. She's been told that she has tremendous potential and that she could make it to university if she gets the help she needs. She's not getting it. She's sharing her educational assistant with eight other students and she's been told that she needs one-on-one assistance.

You, Madam Minister, are failing children like Anna right across the province. I've talked about these two kids here today, but People for Education tell me there are close to 40,000 of these children. I think we have a moral responsibility to help these kids get the very best start in life so they can find success. If we can't do that in government, then who's going to do it for them? You've got half a billion dollars for private schools, but you don't have enough money in public education to meet the special education needs of our kids.

I'm asking you, do away with your bureaucratic process and, instead, invest those resources in helping these kids.

Hon Mrs Witmer: I find it a little disappointing how the Leader of the Opposition has attempted to politicize this process. We are all concerned about providing the appropriate programs and the appropriate level of funding for students in Ontario.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Sorry to interrupt the minister. Will the minister please take her seat. Order.

Interjections.

The Speaker: This is the last warning to the member for Hamilton East. We have some visitors in the gallery who would like to hear an answer.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. We have some visitors in the gallery who would like to hear the minister answer.

The Minister of Education.

Hon Mrs Witmer: I'd like to quote, because when the previous Minister of Education introduced the changes in special education, this is what Marie Bountrogianni, MPP, Hamilton Mountain, said about the funding formula: "It's the first time that they mandated special services -- psychologists, social workers and speech and language pathologists -- and I applaud the government for that."

The Liberal candidate in Wentworth-Burlington, Vicky Wilson-Sher, said, "It's good to develop standards that are province-wide...."

I'd just say to the leader opposite that we care about these children; you care about these children; I know the NDP care about these children. We are moving forward. We've increased funding by 17%. We will continue to ensure that all children in this province --

The Speaker: I'm afraid the minister's time is up.

HYDRO ONE

Mr Howard Hampton (Kenora-Rainy River): My question is for the Premier. Premier, you've stated that a privatization of Hydro One is off the table but a partial sale of Hydro One or Hydro One assets is still being considered. Your Minister of Energy constantly tells people that Hydro One assets or part of the company must be sold because there's a financial crisis, the transmission lines are falling down and the money must be found to fix up the transmission lines. But I searched through the whole privatization document, the prospectus, to look for any words that support your Minister of Energy's scare campaign.

Nowhere in that prospectus do you find anything that supports his scare campaign. So, Premier, I want to ask you, what's the real reason your government wants to sell off part of Hydro One or some of Hydro One assets?

Hon Ernie Eves (Premier, Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs): First of all, we did not say this morning that anything was off the table; we said that we would not part with control of Hydro One. That's exactly what we said. We do believe that we need to bring some private sector discipline to Hydro One. There are many different ways you can do that, but the most conventional way would be to seek out a strategic partner for less than 50%, so the government retains control of the asset, which I know the leader of the third party advocates. Another way is an income trust scenario.

That's another way you could bring in private sector discipline and have people on the board and have partnerships. Another way, of course, is to sell less than 50% of the shares and bring in private sector discipline that way. So there are three conventional ways you could bring private sector discipline to the entity of Hydro One without parting with control on behalf of the people of Ontario, as we have committed to do today.

Mr Hampton: The only private sector discipline we've witnessed at Hydro One was the desire to push the salaries, bonuses and expense accounts up to the private sector level. That is exactly the so-called private sector discipline that the people of Ontario are opposed to.

Your Minister of Energy is out there on a scare campaign telling people that if some of the assets aren't sold off and the revenue used to shore up the transmission lines, they're going to fall down. But when you search the prospectus, nowhere do you find support for that language. So I ask you, are the lawyers and accountants who have put together that prospectus being misleading? Are they saying something untrue, or is your Minister of Energy once again wrong?

Hon Mr Eves: First of all, the leader of the third party has been telling us what a great job the board was doing. Now he's concerned that we've removed the former board from their responsibilities. They weren't doing that great a job, in our opinion.

They were not responding to the 100% shareholder, the people of the province of Ontario, and they were not protecting the interests of the people of the province of Ontario, which is exactly why they were removed when they didn't respond to what we thought appropriate action should be with respect to the very issues the leader of the third party professes to be concerned about: compensation and severance packages to senior executives at Hydro One.

Mr Hampton: The Premier is trying very hard not to answer the question. The question is about your Minister of Energy's scare campaign, where he goes around Ontario saying, "Well, if we don't sell off some of the assets, the transmission lines are going to fall down. We need to sell off the assets so we get the money to shore up the transmission lines." Yet when you read the prospectus, there is not one ounce of support for that.

Premier, you know, as an investment banker, that putting a misleading or untrue statement in the prospectus is a criminal offence; people can go to jail. So either your Minister of Energy is wrong again, he has mounted another scare campaign, or the people, the lawyers and the accountants, who put together the prospectus have uttered an untrue or false statement and should go to jail. Which is it, Premier?

Hon Mr Eves: Not only with respect to the prospectus, but everybody associated with Hydro One has stated and enunciated on numerous occasions that about $500 million minimum a year needs to go into capital restructuring of the distribution arm of Hydro One. That has been out there for a long time.

The Minister of Energy is not fear-mongering. He isn't the guy who rented a bus that went around complaining and fear-mongering to seniors and others in Ontario. By now, according to the leader of the third party, the sky is supposed to have fallen in, the ceiling should be down upon us and the lights should be out in perpetuity, but none of those apocalypses has happened as he projected.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): New question.

Mr Hampton: Premier, yesterday morning the price of electricity shot up to $700 a megawatt hour, 16 times what it has customarily been in Ontario. I suggest to you that people across this province are concerned when the price of hydro rises 16 times higher in one day.

Again I come back to the question: there is no support for your Minister of Energy's scare campaign. If you read the Hydro One prospectus, about $500 million was invested in hydro transmission lines last year and $500 million is committed this year. There's no discussion about needing to sell off Hydro One or any part of Hydro One in order to get that money.

Admit it, Premier: the real reason you want to sell off part of Hydro One, or formerly all of Hydro One, is that you want $2 million or $3 million --

Interjection: Billion.

Mr Hampton: -- $2 billion or $3 billion to put into a pre-election slush fund that you can spread around Ontario. This is going to be a repetition of Highway 407: sell off a valuable asset and use the money to grease the skids for an election. Admit it. That's what it's about.

Hon Mr Eves: Talk about fear-mongering. I think I just heard the leader of the third party say that hydro rates are up 68%. He knows full well that he's fear-mongering again. He's trying to lead the people of Ontario to believe that their electricity bills will be going up 68%, and he knows, at least I hope he knows, that nothing even remotely resembling that, not even 6.8% let alone 68% -- perhaps he has the two numbers right; he's just misplaced the decimal point -- is going to happen in the future with respect to electricity rates in Ontario.

I know it's an easy political hit and it's easy to get fear-mongering on a spot price for electricity at any particular moment in time, but people in this province don't get electricity bills every second or every minute or every hour or even every day or every week. They get them monthly or they get them quarterly, and over the course of the year, the price of electricity will not go up. He knows that. Why does he continue to fear-monger to the people of Ontario -- hopefully, he thinks, for his own political gain?

Mr Hampton: The Premier just sounded like the former chief executive officer of Enron defending huge power increases in California. The question is about the rationale for selling off any part of Hydro One.

The first rationale you gave was about the debt. But we found that on the privatization of the Bruce nuclear plant you actually get less money to apply to the debt. Then it was about private sector discipline. We found out about private sector discipline. It drives the bonuses, salary and expense account of Eleanor Clitheroe over $2 million. Most recently it was the scare campaign: you have to sell off part of the company to find the money to maintain the transmission lines. But the prospectus doesn't even mention that; it doesn't even refer to it.

So I'm saying to you, Premier, that the real reason you want to sell off part of Hydro One is that your government wants some money to spread around before the next election, just as you did with Highway 407. Deny it, if it's not true.

Hon Mr Eves: It absolutely is not true. First of all, the leader of the third party must know something I don't know: that there's going to be an election following this. I certainly have no plans to call an election in the near future, and I can assure the member that there will be at least a couple of budgets between now and the next provincial election.

I would also point out to him that he's totally inaccurate with respect to Bruce A, for example. The entity that leased Bruce B is going to spend $1.1 billion to bring Bruce A back on stream. That never would have been available other than by getting it from taxpayers of Ontario and adding to the $38-billion debt that's already there to bring that asset up and running. Yesterday, he was in the House quoting some environmental group saying we should do nuclear energy so we can eliminate our coal-powered plants. Today, he's dumping all over nuclear energy. He's all over the map on this issue.

With respect to the 407, every single penny that was raised went to pay down the debt; all $1.7 billion or $1.8 billion in profit went to that. It didn't go into any election goodies for any election campaign.

SPECIAL EDUCATION

Mr Gerard Kennedy (Parkdale-High Park): My question is again for the Minister of Education. Minister, you said in an earlier answer to my leader Dalton McGuinty that you are going to continue what you were doing for the past five years. I'm here to tell you that's not possible. It's not possible to tell the parents who are here today and thousands more around the province that that is going to be your response. What you're doing is, you're taking kids -- and I've got pictures of some of them here in front of me -- and reducing them to pieces of paper like this.

Forty pages -- it would take 15 hours of teacher time, hundreds of hours to fill out, thousands of dollars diverted away from these kids.

Minister, I'm going to send you a list of 57 communities in 37 school boards where this problem is documented. It's in every school board.

I want to tell you that here in the gallery is Theresa MacNeil. Her grade 5 daughter, Bernadette, is down to one hour of assistance a day. At one time, she had 100% support in grade 2. Your rules are such that when Bernadette does better because she gets the support she needs, that becomes a case for taking the support away. Will you respond to the plan we have? Will you tell the families here today, and listening around the province, you won't make them wait --

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): The member's time is up. Minister?

Hon Elizabeth Witmer (Deputy Premier, Minister of Education): I think we need to be clear on one thing. Everyone in this House today is committed to making sure all students in this province who have special needs receive the adequate programming and financial support they need. If the member remembers, it wasn't all that long ago when, depending on where you lived and what board you were with, sometimes you had no access to special-needs funding or services or support or assessments. We are now moving forward. We have the support of the Provincial Auditor. He believes our multi-year plan will promote continuous quality improvement.

I want to remind the member that we have increased special-needs funding by 17% since 1998. We will continue to ensure that we protect the funding for these vulnerable children. We are allocating for them $1.37 billion --

The Speaker: I'm afraid the minister's time is up. Supplementary?

Mr Kennedy: This morning, Brenda Omarra was here with her son Sean. Her son is autistic and has fragile X syndrome. He has had one-on-one help for the past five years and this year he's going to be cut back to 5.5-on-one.

Minister, you have to get out of your plush chair in Queen's Park. You need to go and see what's happening out there. You are having paperwork done in place of helping people. In boards across the province, represented by each of these members on your side of the House, no assessments are being done and no help is being given to all kinds of students. I've sent you a list of hundreds of people, with their phone numbers, their schools and their boards, who are willing to talk to you and explain this problem to you.

Today we have with us a number of parents. They can't wait for multi-year plans. They can't have this problem continue. You made this problem with the paperwork. You created this nightmare for them and their families. On behalf of these families but, more importantly, on behalf of the rest of us, it's in all of our interests. They're not here to beg for their kids. They're here because this is in all our interests for you to respond here today --

The Speaker: The member's time is up. Minister?

Hon Mrs Witmer: The process that we have set up we have acknowledged, and we have worked with an ISA working group. It was made up of trustees, supervisory officers, the Ontario Parent Council and others.

I think we've forgotten what the whole process --

Interjection.

The Speaker: Order.

Mrs Sandra Pupatello (Windsor West): It is inarguable.

The Speaker: I'm sorry to interrupt the Minister of Education.

The member for Windsor West, this is your last warning. You're not going to continue. You're yelling across. I yell "Order," and you keep going. This is your last warning. I will have to ask you to leave if you keep it up. Sorry, Minister of Education.

Hon Mrs Witmer: The entire ISA process was designed to establish each board's share of high-needs students. The process will be complete at the end of this year. It will give us a clear picture of the highest-needs students. It is a comprehensive review to ensure that all children in this province, no matter where they are, receive the support. We've made the eligibility criteria clear. It is up to each board of education to ensure that the appropriate programs are provided.

Mr Kennedy: More rules.

The Speaker: Order. This is the member for Parkdale-High Park's last warning as well.

ASSISTANCE TO FLOOD VICTIMS

Mr Al McDonald (Nipissing): My question today is for the Minister of Northern Development and Mines. I'm sure you're well aware an intense storm has hit the Rainy River, Fort Frances and Atikokan areas of northwestern Ontario. Many families in the north have been seriously affected, and it poses great concern.

I am very surprised the leader of the third party is so concerned about Hydro that he's forgotten about the people he represents.

As a northern member of caucus, I am very concerned for these residents. Can you give us an update on this situation?

Hon Jim Wilson (Minister of Northern Development and Mines): I'd like to thank my colleague from the north --

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Order. Will the member take his seat, please. Everybody calm down. I've never had anything like that. Everybody's just going to calm down. I believe the minister had the floor.

Hon Mr Wilson: I want to thank our colleague from the north for expressing his concerns about, indeed, a serious situation in the northwestern part of the province. I know he understands, being a northerner, that these unfortunate situations do happen all too often in the north. The government is very much aware of the current situation. There's been a large flood up there, for members who don't know. The member is correct in pointing out the areas the flood is affecting most. Atikokan, the town of Rainy River and the townships of Dawson and Lake of the Woods, in fact, have declared emergencies due to severe flooding.

I can assure all members of this Legislature and everyone in the north that representatives of the government continue to be in close contact with local officials in the affected communities. In particular, I want to assure the mayor of Kenora, Dave Canfield, the mayor of Fort Frances, Glenn Witherspoon, and the mayor of Atikokan, Dennis Brown, that the Ontario government will provide necessary support for the communities affected by the storm. We're here to help them.

In response to the second part, the Minister for Public Safety and Security will specifically outline what the government is doing.

Mr McDonald: I'm glad the Ontario government acted so quickly to help these communities in crisis.

Mr Howard Hampton (Kenora-Rainy River): On a point of order, Speaker: The Minister of Transportation and the Minister of Housing might want to inform the House that I raised these issues with them yesterday.

The Speaker: It's not a point of order.

Hon Chris Hodgson (Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing): On a point of privilege, Mr Speaker: The leader of the third party did mention to me a riding issue. I never --

The Speaker: Order. It's not a point of privilege.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. The member for Nipissing had the floor, I believe.

Mr McDonald: Thank you, Mr Speaker, and thank you, Minister. I'm glad the Ontario government acted so quickly to help these communities in crisis.

Minister, can you tell me what the government is doing to help these communities?

Hon Mr Wilson: The Minister of Public Safety will respond.

Hon Robert W. Runciman (Minister of Public Safety and Security): I thank the member for his concern and for the question.

The Ontario government is very concerned about the residents of these fine communities. I want to assure you that no fatalities or serious injuries have occurred and no formal evacuations have taken place.

Presently, the main concerns are power outages, road washouts, water treatment and sewage plants and supply shortages. Emergency Measures Ontario has dispatched area officers to Kenora, Atikokan and Thunder Bay to provide advice and any required assistance. MNR and EMO are maintaining constant contact with the community leaders. In addition, MNR is currently providing helicopter air support, which allows continued assessment of the situation. Various ministries and the OPP have been called to the provincial operations centre to assist with the province's response. The OPP as well as the various ministries and EMO are working together to provide a more accurate assessment of the impact --

The Speaker: I'm afraid the minister's time is up. New question.

CHILDREN'S HEALTH SERVICES

Mr Dalton McGuinty (Leader of the Opposition): This question is to the Premier. Your decision to shut down the heart surgery program at the Children's Hospital of Eastern Ontario has sparked an outcry, the likes of which we have never, ever seen in eastern Ontario. In just over two weeks, over 134,000 people signed a petition calling on you to reverse your decision. You have frightened, angered and brought together families in eastern Ontario like never before. They believe, Premier, as I do and as our doctors do, that your decision to shut down the children's heart surgery program at the Children's Hospital of Eastern Ontario will compromise our children's health care.

My question to you, Premier, on behalf of the 134,000 people who signed this petition is quite simply this: how could you possibly fail to understand how important our heart surgery program was and is to the families of eastern Ontario?

Hon Ernie Eves (Premier, Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs): The Minister of Health is dealing with this issue. I'm sure he'd be glad to respond.

Hon Tony Clement (Minister of Health and Long-Term Care): I want to assure the citizens in and around Ottawa and in eastern Ontario that on this side of the House we're most concerned with making sure that our kids have the very best health care, the very best outcomes so that they live healthy, prosperous and long lives. That's what we on this side of the House believe.

I've tried to depoliticize the issue. I've tried to ensure that we look at the facts, that we look at the best practices, that we learn from the coroner's inquest in Winnipeg, that we learn from the coroner's inquiry in London. I've tried to make this not a political issue but an issue where we can make the best decisions on behalf of the kids in eastern Ontario.

I ask the honourable member opposite to join me and also be a positive influence so we can get the best results for our kids, not only now but in the future.

Mr McGuinty: Minister, you will know there was a rally in Ottawa a couple of weeks ago where over 2,000 people came out on a Saturday morning. There was a rally last week in Pembroke where hundreds attended. There are now rallies planned in Cornwall and in Casselman.

We've had family members from Ottawa, Cornwall, Morrisburg, Carleton Place, Smiths Falls, Rockland, Hawkesbury, Pembroke, Arnprior, Renfrew, Barry's Bay, Perth, Merrickville, Kemptville, Winchester, Chesterville, Maxville, Brockville, Gananoque, Kingston, Napanee, Cumberland, Alfred, Embrun, Manotick, Eganville and other places who are outraged that you would make the decision in the first instance to rob us of our children's heart surgery program.

The question I have for you again, on behalf of these 134,000 people, is how could you possibly have made that decision in the first place?

Hon Mr Clement: I know this may come as a surprise to the honourable Leader of the Opposition, but I did so because I thought it was the right thing to do. I thought it would give us better outcomes for our kids.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Last warning for the member from London-Fanshawe. We'll ask you to leave. You're on the list as well, member for London-Fanshawe. Sorry, Minister.

Hon Mr Clement: The reason I came to that conclusion was on the best advice of some of the best pediatric minds, not only in the Dominion of Canada, but throughout the world. So when he asked the question, I hope he wasn't trying to be rhetorical. But that's the answer to the question. Because it's such a serious issue, we decided to review the review through Dr Keon. I have made it clear that if Dr Keon can give me some comfort that there is another way to achieve the best results for our kids in eastern Ontario, I'm willing -- believe me, I'm willing -- to take that advice.

I'm willing to take that advice. Why won't the honourable member opposite also come clean and say he would be willing to take that advice as well? He hasn't said so. He has kept his options open, which makes it a political issue. I'm trying to depoliticize it. I encourage him to do the right thing: depoliticize the issue and make sure we do the right thing together. Why won't you join with me and do that?

Mr Jean-Marc Lalonde (Glengarry-Prescott-Russell): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: We have in the gallery today a group from the Castor school of Embrun, who are here to support the position of our leader --

The Speaker: It's not a point of order. I would ask the members not to waste time to do that, particularly when they inject politics into it. On some occasions, as you know, we allow points of order to recognize schools. On some days when we see the children's faces, it's the best thing we do in here. But I'm not going to allow you to do it and then add on something political like that. I would ask all members not do it. It's question period.

WOMEN IN

SKILLED TRADES PROGRAM

Mr Ted Arnott (Waterloo-Wellington): My question is for the Minister of Training, Colleges and Universities. The minister recently announced funding for the women in skilled trades program at Conestoga College in Kitchener, and we very much appreciated her visit to our community last week.

We know that economic independence is an important issue for everyone in Ontario. This is both a social and an economic issue. By being able to support themselves and their families, women are not only making a greater contribution to our economic growth, but they also have more choices themselves and are less likely to become trapped in abusive relationships or circumstances.

For everyone's benefit, we need more women qualified and working in the skilled trades in Ontario. Can you inform the House about the women in skilled trades program and the work it is doing to increase the number of women working in non-traditional careers?

Hon Dianne Cunningham (Minister of Training, Colleges and Universities, minister responsible for women's issues): We're very excited about having more women enter apprenticeship training programs, where right now they are significantly underrepresented. They should know that these are great-paying jobs and that we need them.

Just last week I was at Conestoga College -- a great success story -- with my colleague the Minister of Community and Social Services and Mr Wettlaufer. We have more than one letter, but this is basically what one says:

"I have been in the construction electrical trade since 1974. I was a foreman for over 20 years and I am now employed as a project manager. Of the more than a couple of hundred electricians that I have worked with over the years, the number of women I have met could be counted on only both hands. However, they were all good electricians. I can only imagine how hard it was for them to be successful, but believe me, over those years, I've seen a lot more unskilled men."

You should know that even this professional wants more women in the skilled trades.

Mr Arnott: I know we all agree with that answer. We certainly extend our congratulations to the women participating in the women in skilled trades program at colleges and training institutes across Ontario and hope for their continued success.

In addition to the skilled trades, women need greater representation in the information technology industry, a source of much of our province's growth in recent years. The information technology sector offers rewarding and well-paying jobs and is currently experiencing a shortage of qualified workers. Can the minister tell us what the ministry is doing to encourage and prepare more Ontario women for careers in the high-technology sector?

Interjection.

Hon Mrs Cunningham: "Now," says the former mayor of Kingston, who supports women in information technology and has jokes in the House.

We actually have a great pilot program. My colleagues and I across the country, ministers responsible for women's issues, are working together. The government actually invests over $2 million over three years. It is a beginning, but it is dealing with people who have a very difficult time in technology, giving them every opportunity we can give them.

They are in four sites in Ontario where there are high concentrations of high-tech industry so that they'll have a lot of mentors and opportunities to participate in the workforce. It does target low-income women, because if they get a second chance, a third chance, if we reach out to them, they will be successful.

Of course, my writer says, "I applaud your vision." People don't say that to me very often, so I'm reading it.

In my opinion, there simply will not be enough potential tradesmen to meet tomorrow's demands if only young men are encouraged to apprentice. It is time for an intelligent investment in women's education by all the women in this House, which we support, to begin to fill the void on behalf young women.

ASSISTANCE TO FLOOD VICTIMS

Mr Howard Hampton (Kenora-Rainy River): My question is for the Minister of Municipal Affairs. I'm advised in his absence the associate minister will be answering the question.

Yesterday I advised the Minister of Municipal Affairs about the very serous flooding, tornados and electrical storms across northwestern Ontario and that yesterday at this time some 15,000 homes were without electricity. I'm told that today at this time there are still about 8,000 without hydro. All the major highways -- Highway 11, Highway 71, Highway 502 -- have been shut off. There's a "drive at your own risk" advisory on Highway 17.

As you will know, this is the second time in two years that this kind of flooding has happened, so many people and many municipalities have suffered very serious damage.

I want to know, what are you prepared to do to ensure that communities get the help they need now -- right now -- to have roads restored, hydro restored and other important services restored?

Hon Brian Coburn (Associate Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing): As we speak, we have representatives there from Emergency Measures Ontario, as my colleagues have pointed out, as well as representatives from the Ministry of Municipal Affairs, the Ministry of Natural Resources and the Ministry of Transportation, working with leaders of those communities that are affected to determine steps that should be taken to alleviate the immediate situation.

Last year, the province responded quickly, and we have responded in the same manner this year. We were there with financial assistance. Whatever aid, whatever is needed to alleviate the immediate situation is certainly the direction that is given to our people on the ground in the Rainy River and northern area.

Mr Hampton: Minister, last year communities like Fort Frances, Rainy River and a number of rural communities where there was extensive property damage had to wait for over a year before they received financial assistance from the Ontario disaster relief assistance program. For many people, that's just too long. As well, many municipalities didn't get the money to help them repair their roads, which were completely washed out, until just earlier this spring. This is the second time this has happened now. The washouts are even more severe than before. The property damage is even more severe than before.

Can you assure people that the financial assistance will arrive in a timely way and people will not be forced to wait 12 months, 15 months before they see the money that they need to make these essential repairs and restore the property damage?

Hon Mr Coburn: Certainly representatives of the various ministries on the ground, who had the experience of last year's disaster up there, are working closely with them. I can assure the leader of the third party that we will do everything in our power to alleviate the hardship that the residents are facing up there on a timely basis and provide the financial assistance that's needed to restore the community to its former situation.

At a time like this, when hardship and loss of property affect individuals and raise the anguish among families and communities, and the financial impact as well, that is something we will address as quickly and in as timely a manner as we possibly can.

MINISTRY SPENDING

Mrs Leona Dombrowsky (Hastings-Frontenac-Lennox and Addington): My question if for the Minister of Community, Family and Children's Services. Everyone knows this government's ugly record of scapegoating social assistance recipients. Mike Harris cut off the nutrition allowance to expectant mothers because, he said, it was being spent on beer. John Baird has insinuated that social assistance recipients are drug addicts. Meanwhile, that minister was handing the taxpayers his bar tabs. I hold in my hand a few of the hundreds of receipts that your predecessor, John Baird, got taxpayers to pay.

A $200 tab from the Bier Markt, $120 from The Keg Mansion, $180 from Fiddlers Green Pub. Minister, will you join me in condemning this double standard for your ministry?

Hon Brenda Elliott (Minister of Community, Family and Children's Services): I refer that question to the Chair of Management Board.

Hon David H. Tsubouchi (Chair of the Management Board of Cabinet, Minister of Culture): I'll just refer back to May 28, when the same question was posed to me -- different circumstances. "The ministers' handbook provides for reimbursements of expenses for ministers and their staff while on government business, provided the claims are supported by receipts and reasonable for locations where incurred. We provide guidance to ministries in developing their policies. It is the responsibility of each minister to make sure they're followed and are fair and the rules are adhered to." That was my quote from May 28. It stands again today.

Mrs Dombrowsky: Minister, the decay has set in on your side of the House. Ministers say they are entitled to live high on the hog because they work hard. Well, the vast majority of Ontarians work hard, but they don't hand taxpayers the bill for their Danier Leather folders.

The Minister of Energy hands taxpayers the bill for his bar tabs, the Minister of Consumer and Business Services hands taxpayers the bill for his fishing licence, and the dining expenses for a month of your predecessor, the Minister of Community and Social Services, were double what a single mom with two children on social assistance live on in a month. What a double standard. Moral decay has set in and the Provincial Auditor needs to be called in to see how deep it goes. Will you ask the Premier to call in the Provincial Auditor to review all ministerial expenses?

Hon Mr Tsubouchi: Maybe I can get a little more definitive here and put some context to all this. On average, both opposition parties spent more per year on meals and travel when they were in power than our party, and when we adjusted for inflation, the Liberals spent 45% more. The Liberals increased their spending on travelling and meals by nearly $35 million, and that's more than 30%. In their first year alone, the Liberals increased their travel and meal expenses by $14 million. I guess it's, "Do as I say, not as I do," right?

MUNICIPAL LEGISLATION

Mr Raminder Gill (Bramalea-Gore-Malton-Springdale): I have a question for the Associate Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. As you're aware, the Municipal Act is over 150 years old. Considering that we are in the 21st century, this Municipal Act could not considered as an effective tool for the issues facing municipalities in today's age. What have you done to ensure that municipalities will have the tools to enable them to ensure vibrant, healthy communities?

Hon Tina R. Molinari (Associate Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing): I would like to thank the member from Bramalea-Gore-Malton-Springdale for the question. He is absolutely correct: the old Municipal Act was not effective, and municipalities across the province have been asking for there to be a more modern, streamlined act that could respond to their local needs and environmental and social changes within their communities.

We've responded. We introduced and passed the new Municipal Act last December, which will come into effect January 1, 2003. This new act is the cornerstone of a better, more consultative relationship between the province and the municipalities. Both opposition parties had the opportunity to introduce such

an act, but did not. Despite several municipalities' call for a new act, they even voted against it. This government has responded to those requests. Over the last 150 years there have been several amendments to the act that created an extensive act. The new act is more comprehensive. It responds to the local needs with 10 areas of influence, unlike the current one-size-fits-all act.

Mr Gill: I understand, Minister, that the new municipal act gives broader authorities for municipalities. But what is being done to ensure that municipalities are aware of these changes? Is there some sort of training in place for municipalities?

Hon Mrs Molinari: I'm pleased to respond. I know that the member for Bramalea-Gore-Malton-Springdale is also very connected with his municipalities that cover Mississauga and Brampton. I'm pleased to say the report does have education awareness. We are ongoing with the education for all of the municipalities. There is a working group that has been established and is comprised of staff from the ministry and representatives from a number of municipal stakeholder associations. It will develop and implement an education program to help facilitate a smooth transition into the new act.

To date, the working group has met twice: January 10 and February 4. It is in the process of developing a detailed education and training strategy to ensure that municipalities are prepared for January 1, 2003. It is expected that training sessions dealing with specific aspects of the new act will begin sometime in the spring of this year and will carry on throughout 2004.

We have received very positive feedback from this act from all of the municipalities, from --

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): I wish I hadn't cut off Ann Mulvale, my mayor, when you said that.

HYDRO ONE

Mr Monte Kwinter (York Centre): I have a question to the Minister of Enterprise, Opportunity and Innovation. During the leadership campaign, you made a statement and I want to quote it: "I'm in favour of a public offering of the shares of Hydro One. We need to come to a conclusion on this. It's important for markets to know and for business to know what the position of the government is."

In the statements made by the Premier today, he is quoted as saying, "The decision on the future structure of Hydro One will be made after several months of public and private consultations and will be revealed before the next election, expected next spring."

This dithering and this vacillating has got to have an impact on what is one of our most competitive advantages, and that is Hydro. Could you tell me what your position is and do you know what the government's position is and what was the advice that you gave to the Premier?

Hon Jim Flaherty (Minister of Enterprise, Opportunity and Innovation): Science and technology is in the new ministry but energy is not.

Hon Chris Stockwell (Minister of Environment and Energy, Government House Leader): I want to just say to this House --

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Order. Sorry. Minister of Energy?

Hon Mr Stockwell: I'm happy to take a question from a member opposite who supports the private school tax credit as fully and completely as I do.

I think since this process has been announced, post-Justice Gans's decision, we've said that we are examining all kinds of options that are brought to our attention. I went through the consultation process and heard many options that were put on the table.

We've examined them and I think we've narrowed the field down to a couple. I don't believe that's dithering at all. I think we're doing the proper thing. We're examining all the options and we'll announce it in due course.

I say to the member opposite, if there's any dithering to be seen here, it's in the position of your leader, December 12 and post-December 12. As I said in this House earlier, the only reason your leader came up with changing his mind is that on December 12 he was thinking too quickly, and it was thinking too quickly that got him into this trouble. He should slow down and think as he normally does, slowly.

Hon John R. Baird (Associate Minister of Francophone Affairs): On a point of personal privilege, Mr Speaker: I want to apologize. The Board of Internal Economy was supposed to meet today, and it's not going to be able to meet because of an attendance issue. We won't be able to consider the request from the member for Hastings-Frontenac-Lennox and Addington for more money for her Toronto apartment, because $16,000 isn't enough. She wants more money.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. I would ask all members to cool the temperature in here.

Question period is now over.

PETITIONS

CHILDREN'S HEALTH SERVICES

Mr Dalton McGuinty (Leader of the Opposition): I have a petition signed by some 54,706 people, which reads as follows:

"To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas the Ontario government is shutting down the heart surgery unit at the Children's Hospital of Eastern Ontario; and

"Whereas every year CHEO treats 140 cases of seriously ill children close to home; and

"Whereas centralizing children's heart surgery in Toronto would force patients and their families to travel 400 to 600 kilometres away from home at a traumatic time; and

"Whereas there is a waiting list for cardiac surgery in Toronto but not at CHEO; and

"Whereas the people of eastern Ontario demand accessible, quality health care for their children;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to immediately override the government's decision to close this life-saving program and to ensure that top-quality accessible health care remains available to every child in eastern Ontario."

It is with tremendous support that I submit this petition, and I am pleased to attach my name thereto.

Interjections.

The Acting Speaker (Mr Bert Johnson): I'm not very familiar with soccer, but as I understand it, a yellow card is a warning and a red card is, you're out.

I would like you to consider that everyone has a yellow card.

Interjections.

The Acting Speaker: One more word and I'll not warn you again. I think there is no need for that kind of -- I could not hear the leader of the official opposition read his petition, and I don't think that is a position you want to put the Chair of this House in, so I will not have it.

The Chair recognizes the member for Niagara Centre, and if he relinquishes I'll recognize the member for Timmins-James Bay.

ONTARIO DISABILITY

SUPPORT PROGRAM

Mr Gilles Bisson (Timmins-James Bay): I have literally hundreds of petitions, probably representing over 1,000 names, from the riding of Timmins-James Bay. It reads as follows:

"To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas people with disabilities who rely on the Ontario disability support program payments are facing rising costs, and

"Whereas people unable to work because of serious disabilities have had no increase in support since 1995, and

"Whereas with loss of rent controls their rents have skyrocketed, placing huge financial strains on many ODSP recipients,

"Therefore we, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to bring fairness to the Ontario Disability Support Program Act, 1997, by amending it to provide for regulations requiring annual cost-of-living adjustments to income support programs," just like my good friend Mr Martin is going to propose by way of his private member's bill tomorrow.

I affix my name to that petition.

PUBLIC SECTOR COMPENSATION

Mr John O'Toole (Durham): "Whereas the citizens of Ontario are alarmed and disappointed with the 'golden parachute' severance packages available to senior executives at Hydro One; and

"Whereas the top five executives at Hydro One are not only making large salaries, but have also been given packages that would provide more than $12 million if they leave, even of their own accord; and

"Whereas the citizens of Ontario consider this compensation to be clearly excessive;

"Therefore, we, the undersigned, respectfully petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"That the Parliament of Ontario instruct the board and senior management of Hydro One to roll back the salaries and severance packages, with the goal of ensuring remuneration is in keeping with expectations of the citizens of Ontario, and

"Further, that the Parliament of Ontario take action to dismiss members of the board and/or senior management if they refuse to reduce the pay and severance packages for Hydro's top executives."

Clearly this is the response of my constituents. I sign and endorse it, and it looks like our Premier signs and endorses this as well.

AUDIOLOGY SERVICES

Mr Alvin Curling (Scarborough-Rouge River): I have a petition here that came in to me and my colleague Rick Bartolucci from Sudbury. Thousands of them are coming in. It says here:

"Listen: Our Hearing is Important!

"Whereas services delisted by the Harris government now exceed $100 million in total; and

"Whereas Ontarians depend on audiologists for the provision of qualified hearing assessments and hearing aid prescriptions; and

"Whereas new Harris government policy will virtually eliminate access to publicly funded audiology assessments across vast regions of Ontario; and

"Whereas this new Harris government policy is virtually impossible to implement in underserviced areas across Ontario; and

"Whereas this policy will lengthen waiting lists for patients and therefore have a detrimental effect on the health of these Ontarians;

"Therefore,

be it resolved that we, the undersigned, petition the Ontario Legislature to demand the Mike Harris government move immediately to permanently fund audiologists directly for the provision of audiology services."

I am in full support of this and I will affix my signature. Jordon, I will give it to you to give to the desk.

ONTARIO DISABILITY

SUPPORT PROGRAM

Mr Tony Martin (Sault Ste Marie): "Whereas the Ontario disability support program" -- more commonly known as the ODSP -- "is an important source of income for disabled people who cannot work due to a disability; and

"Whereas there has not been an increase in the amount eligible recipients can receive under the Ontario disability support program since before the current government was first elected to the Legislature; and

"Whereas there have been substantial increases in the cost of housing and other necessary living expenses during the same period of time; and

"Whereas the maximum monthly allowance available for a single disabled person of $930 is wholly inadequate to meet monthly basic needs";

And

whereas Bill 118 has been introduced, the Ontario Disability Support Program Amendment Act (Fairness in Disability Income Support Payments), 2001, to require cost-of-living adjustments to income support payments on October 24, 2001;

And

whereas if passed, Bill 118 would ensure that people receiving ODSP will get an annual increase on April 1 to keep pace with the increase in the cost of living;

"Therefore,

be it resolved that we, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario" as to support Bill 118 through second and third reading.

I assign my signature.

MEDICAL SCHOOL TUITION

Mr Pat Hoy (Chatham-Kent Essex): "To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas medical school tuition was deregulated by the Ontario government in 1998; and medical school tuition has and continues to increase in excess of 300% such that at some universities tuition is now $14,000;

"Whereas the physicians most likely to practise in a rural area are originally from rural areas themselves; and

"Whereas unaffordable tuition disproportionately excludes medical students from rural communities;

"Be it resolved that we, the undersigned, petition the Ontario government and the universities of Ontario to ensure that medical education be made financially accessible to all qualified students; and

"Be it further resolved that we, the undersigned, request that medical tuition be capped and re-regulated at a level accessible to all Ontarians, and that the Ontario student assistance plan/Canada student loan program be adjusted, in order to ensure that Ontarians from all communities are able to afford a medical school tuition."

This petition is signed by a number of residents from Leamington and Harrow, and I have signed it as well.

ONTARIO DISABILITY

SUPPORT PROGRAM

Mr Tony Martin (Sault Ste Marie): "Whereas the Ontario disability support program is an important source of income for disabled people who cannot work due to a disability; and

"Whereas there has not been an increase to the amount eligible recipients can receive under the Ontario disability support program since before the current government was first elected to the Legislature; and

"Whereas there have been substantial increases in the cost of housing and other necessary living expenses during the same period of time; and

"Whereas the maximum monthly allowance available for a single disabled person at $930 is wholly inadequate to meet monthly basic needs; and

"Whereas the Honourable Tony Martin" -- that's me -- "introduced Bill 118,

An Act to amend the Ontario Disability Support Program Act, 1997, to require annual cost-of-living adjustments to income support payments on October 24, 2001, which would have the effect, if passed, of increasing the rates under the Ontario disability support program annually on April 1 to keep pace with increases in the cost of living;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"

(1) That it support Bill 118, or similar legislation, through second and third reading; and

"

(2) That it resolve to increase the allowances payable under the Ontario Disability Support Program Act, 1997, to reflect the actual costs of living in the province of Ontario."

I assign my signature to this petition.

COMPETITIVE ELECTRICITY MARKET

Mr Mario Sergio (York West): I have received a petition from Mr Peter Kerr of 27 London Green Court in Downsview. It's addressed to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario, and I'd like to read it.

"Leave Our Electrical Resources in Ontario;

"Whereas the provincial Conservative Party of Ontario continues to rob the poor to feed the rich with their agenda of selling off the assets of the people of Ontario; I condemn the provincial Conservative Party of Ontario for planning to sell off our electrical resources that my grandfather, my father and myself have worked so hard over many years to construct and pay for. I feel very sorry for my children.

"As a senior with a dependant, my hydro bill will at least double from last year while my small fixed income will decrease with the cost-of-living increases. My wife and myself will not afford to use our one small window air conditioner this summer thanks to the Conservative Party of Ontario policies of bleeding the poor and needy to line the pockets of the rich of Bay Street. I find the actions of this Conservative Party repugnant as they seem to continuously relish to hammer the needy in Ontario, even thinking themselves to be above our provincial courts."

It's signed by Peter Kerr, it's dated, and I concur with the contents. I will give it to the table.

CHILDREN'S HEALTH SERVICES

Mrs Claudette Boyer (Ottawa-Vanier): "To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas the Ontario government is shutting down the heart surgery unit at the Children's Hospital of Eastern Ontario; and

"Whereas every year CHEO treats 140 cases of seriously ill children close to home; and

"Whereas centralizing children's heart surgery in Toronto will force patients and their families to travel 400 to 600 kilometres away from home at a traumatic time; and

"Whereas there is a waiting list for cardiac surgery in Toronto but not at CHEO; and

"Whereas the people of eastern Ontario demand accessible, quality health care for their children;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to immediately override the government's decision to close this life-saving program and ensure that top-quality, accessible health care remains available to every child in eastern Ontario."

It's with great pleasure that I put my signature on this petition.

OPTOMETRISTS

Mr Peter Kormos (Niagara Centre): I have a petition to the Ontario Legislature:

"Whereas the Legislative Assembly of the province of Ontario will be considering a private member's bill that aims to amend the Optometry Act to give optometrists the authority to prescribe therapeutic pharmaceutical agents for the treatment of certain eye diseases; and

"Whereas optometrists are highly trained and equipped with the knowledge and specialized instrumentation needed to effectively diagnose and treat certain eye problems; and

"Whereas extending the authority to prescribe TPAs to optometrists will help relieve the demands on ophthalmologists and physicians who currently have the exclusive domain for prescribing TPAs to optometry patients; and

"Whereas the bill introduced by New Democrat Peter Kormos (MPP -- Niagara Centre) will ensure that patients receive prompt, timely, one-stop care where appropriate;

"Therefore I do support the bill proposing an amendment to the Optometry Act to give optometrists the authority to prescribe therapeutic pharmaceutical agents for the treatment of certain eye diseases and I urge the government of Ontario to ensure speedy passage of the bill."

That's signed by hundreds of persons and by me as well.

CHILDREN'S HEALTH SERVICES

Mr Jean-Marc Lalonde (Glengarry-Prescott-Russell): I have a petition with 378 names from Blue Corners, Alfred and L'Orignal, accompanied by a council motion of the nation municipality.

"To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas the Ontario government is shutting down the heart surgery unit at the Children's Hospital of Eastern Ontario; and

"Whereas every year CHEO treats 140 cases of seriously ill children close to home; and

"Whereas there is a waiting list for cardiac surgery in Toronto but not at CHEO; and

"Whereas the people of eastern Ontario demand accessible, quality health care for their children;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to immediately override the government's decision to close this life-saving program and to ensure that top-quality, accessible health care remains available to every child in eastern Ontario."

I will gladly add my name to this.

OPPOSITION DAY

LONG-TERM CARE /

SOINS DE LONGUE DURÉE

Mr John Gerretsen (Kingston and the Islands): I move that

be it resolved that the Legislative Assembly of Ontario declares unequivocally that the Ernie Eves government should:

Recognize that one of the cornerstones of care of our frail and elderly is the provision of appropriate long-term care;

Recognize that there are over 60,000 Ontarians living in long-term-care facilities, many of whom are frailer and sicker, requiring more care than ever before;

Commit to supplying stable, long-term operational funding indexed to the cost of living that will ensure that the level of nursing and personal care services in Ontario's long-term-care facilities ranks first among similar national and international jurisdictions with similar populations within the next five years

The Acting Speaker (Mr Bert Johnson): Mr Gerretsen moves opposition day number 4. The Chair recognizes the member for Kingston and the Islands.

Mr Gerretsen: Speaker, I request unanimous consent to have our leadoff commenced by our health care critic, the member for Windsor West.

The Acting Speaker: Agreed? I heard a no. The leadoff will be Mr Gerretsen.

Mr Gerretsen: Thank you very much for the co-operation of the members on all sides on this issue.

Statistics Canada predicts that the number of Canadians aged 65 years and over will double in the next 50 years. As a matter of fact, 20% of our population will be senior citizens by the year 2020, and the fastest-growing age group in Canada is people aged 80 years and over. You and I know that there are over 500 long-term-care facilities in Ontario and that they house approximately 60,000 residents.

Let me give you an example of who the average long-term-care facility resident is likely to be: 70% are over 80 years old; 25% of people who live in our long-term-care facilities are over 90 years old; 95% of them, nearly all of them, require assistance to get dressed and to eat and require some level of observation to reduce the potential of injuries to themselves and others.

Most of them, 89% of them, are either incontinent or require some assistance in using the bathroom; 84% of them need assistance just to move about, which is more than six in seven of our residents; 63% have some form of dementia, with 44%, nearly half of them, unable to find their own room within their own home; 56% have circulatory disease; 39% exhibit some degree of aggressive or angry behaviour; and 35% of them have a neurological motor dysfunction.

My main reason for mentioning this is that we have to recognize something that all of us have seen by visiting our various nursing homes, our homes for the aged, and our municipal homes, our charitable homes as well, and that is that the average resident is much older than they were 20 years ago when they first enter the facility, when they're at the facility, and they're much more immobile. As a matter of fact, many years ago, when I first got involved with our municipal home in the Kingston area, the majority of the residents were still able to move about and were in their late 60s when they first entered the home. That has changed dramatically.

I think the other thing that has to be said is that surely we owe it to our senior citizens that they live out their lives with dignity and respect. I guess that's what this motion is about more than anything else. It is to ensure that the people who have given so much of themselves so that we could enjoy the kind of lifestyle that most of us do in the province of Ontario -- they are part of the building foundation of this province and of this country. I firmly believe and the members of my caucus firmly believe, and I think most Ontarians firmly believe, that they should be able to live out the remainder of their life with dignity and respect.

Over the years, I've had an opportunity to go into many of the homes. The staff people, by and large, are individuals who are truly hard-working, dedicated and want to do the best they can for the residents. The burden that has fallen on those people in the last few years, primarily because of lack of adequate funding from the province, requiring them to look after more individuals than certainly used to be the case and not giving the individual residents as much attention as they deserve, is part of the problem that exists within our long-term-care facilities today.

In anticipating what the government may very well say about this, I know they will start talking about the 20,000 new beds they're bringing on stream. There's always this notion of confusing the issue, as it were. We're talking here strictly in this resolution about operational funding. We feel that the operational funding that is currently being provided to all of the long-term-care operators, whether they're from charitable homes, municipal homes or in the private sector, simply isn't adequate enough.

The proof that we have for that was the study that was done by PricewaterhouseCoopers. There's nothing new about this study. It's been out for about a year and a half. In that study, they looked at 10 different jurisdictions, both here in North America and in Europe, and looked at the kind of care people needed and the kind of care they were actually getting in the homes. The findings that that particular study came to are not very good as far as Ontario is concerned.

Let me just tell you what this study came up with. They looked at 10 different jurisdictions, as I mentioned before, in Europe, elsewhere in North America, and they came to the conclusion, this PricewaterhouseCoopers study, that Ontario ranked dead last of the 10 jurisdictions studied in meeting the needs of residents in nursing homes and homes for the aged.

Their findings included such things as, in Ontario long-term-care facilities, the registered nursing care that the average resident receives is about two hours per day, the least among all of the jurisdictions studied. Only two hours per week, or less than two hours per week, of support is received by our residents from the program staff for such things as social work, therapy or activity.

The Ontario long-term residents had the highest proportion of both mental health disturbances and problems, and yet less than 6% of the individuals who needed help received professional intervention. More than two thirds of Ontario's long-term-care residents have restricted range of motion, and yet less than one third of them receive any exercises whatsoever. Furthermore, only 10% of all of Ontario's long-term-care residents with rehabilitation potential actually receive physical therapy.

I think that is a sad comment about the state of affairs of the way we treat our elderly in our long-term-care facilities. When you think that in so many other areas year after year we in Canada and Ontario are ranked by the United Nations as having the highest quality of life, and yet when it comes to issues like this, the way we look after our elderly, we rank dead last, I think it tells an awful lot about our society.

What this motion is intended to do is to rectify that situation. I realize it can't be done overnight. That's why I've set out a goal so that within five years we will rank not among the last but among the best jurisdictions as far as the quality of life we are able to give to our senior residents. That's what this is all about.

The motion is also not condemning the government about its funding policy, because I sincerely hope that all members of the House will embrace this resolution and work in a spirit of working together toward reaching the goal of getting there, as the best possible jurisdiction in which seniors live, within the next five years. That's really what this resolution is about.

I was shocked when I first read this study. I know there will be all sorts of discussions about the new beds that are being created. There's even some controversy now about whether or not we need 20,000 new long-term-care beds. There was a study that just came out over the weekend -- at least I became aware of it over the weekend -- by Dr Peter Coyte, a health economist in the department of health policy, management and evaluation at the University of Toronto, who believes from the study he's done that we only need about 7,600 to 8,000 new beds.

Be that as it may, I'm not here to discuss that. All I know is that when I talk to various community care access centres or to various long-term-care facilities themselves, I find there are extremely long waiting lists and that people are anxious to get in. Sometimes it takes two or three years to get into one of these facilities. Rather than getting into an argument about who's right, whether 20,000 new beds is right or it's 7,600 beds, I want to deal with the operational funding situation.

We need operational funding not just for the registered nursing services but also for personal care services. I was surprised, for example, that dental hygiene is not part of the regular routine within a long-term-care facility, and not just hygiene for the residents themselves and the immediate benefits that it will have for them, but I understand there are many other health benefits that may be derived from proper dental hygiene as well.

I also understand, and I've already referred to it earlier, that physiotherapy services are, by and large, not available within many of the long-term-care facilities. There may be many turf disputes between different factions within the health care system. What I'm saying is, let's work together to work out those differences and make the Ontario long-term-care system one of the best in the world so that we can truly say that we are providing for those frail and elderly people who can no longer look after themselves in the best possible way. That's the goal and that's the vision. That's what this resolution speaks to.

Mr Gilles Bisson (Timmins-James Bay): I will with pleasure be able to get up to speak shortly for a few minutes on what I think is a really good motion. I want to say to the opposition caucus that our caucus will be supporting this motion. We think it's a step in the right direction.

I want to bring to the debate three examples of where we're hurting in our riding of Timmins-James Bay. I'm sure every member of this assembly can get up and probably give a similar story. Let me give you a couple of examples.

We have currently within our community, as the central placement coordination agency sees it, a surplus of beds. So they say the issue is, when you look at the district overall, we have enough beds to go around and we don't have to worry about adding beds to our system. But it means that many citizens who live in Timmins or in other communities, like Moosonee or Moose Factory or wherever, are having to get placed very far away from home, somewhere within the district, because there are no beds available in their municipalities.

For example, if you're a citizen living in the town of Moosonee, Kashechewan, Fort Albany, Timmins or wherever it might be, it doesn't necessarily mean that because a district has enough beds, we're going to be able to get a bed for you in your home community. Often what it means for people, especially in the remote northern communities, is that the only option is to be given a bed somewhere far away from their community and far removed from their families.

I think that's a really bad thing for the health of a person at that point in their life, when they are getting on in age and probably need family around them much more in order to sustain them in their golden years. I look at Moose Factory, Moosonee, Kashechewan, Fort Albany, Ogoki, Attawapiskat and Peawanuck and there are hardly any long-term-care beds in those communities.

There is a proposal coming together now between the federal and provincial governments to merge and amalgamate the federal hospital in Moose Factory with the provincial hospital in Moosonee. One of the things we could do in all of this, if the province takes over the hospital by way of running it and paying for it, is to use the federal dollars that used to pay for health care and ensure ourselves that there are facilities in each of those communities to provide long-term-care beds to their residents.

So if you live in Attawapiskat, Fort Albany, Kashechewan or wherever, you don't have to be shipped away to Moose Factory, Timmins, Kirkland Lake or North Bay to get a bed when it comes to providing for your needs in those golden years.

I am calling on the government, through this debate, when we are going through the process of negotiation to create the new provincial hospital on the coast of James Bay, to ensure that we get the federal dollars that the federal government is not going to be paying any more for operating the current federal hospital and that we utilize that money to build, first of all, long-term-care beds, so that we have in effect a hospital in each of those communities, like Fort Albany, Attawapiskat and others, where we're providing not only some chronic care beds but also long-term-care beds to the citizens in those communities.

We say to the feds, "All right, we're going to take over the provincial hospital. We're going to pay for the maintenance. We're going to pay for the operation. But, rather than giving us the capital to build a new hospital, you have to provide the capital to help us make sure that within that funding envelope there is enough money to pay for the long-term-care beds for the northern James Bay communities so those residents can receive the same services received in other communities."

Further down the line in the Timmins-James Bay riding is the issue of what happens between Timmins, Kapuskasing, Smooth Rock Falls and Hearst. Those four communities have long-term-care facilities within them. The placement coordination agency takes the view that because there are enough beds within the district -- in other words, there may be vacancies in the Hearst unit or there may be vacancies in a Matheson unit -- we don't need any more beds within our district.

I think that's a little short-sighted, because it means that certain communities like Timmins are hard-pressed to have some of their residents placed in an institution of their choice. Sometimes the only option available to them is to be placed in Iroquois Falls or Kapuskasing, or even North Bay in some cases. I don't think that is a viable option for seniors who need to be around their families.

On behalf of the families and on behalf of those seniors, I call on the government to make sure we have the necessary money to provide an adequate number of beds in communities so that people in their golden years don't have to be shipped far away from their families when those families are so much an integral part of their life.

I also want to make a second plea, on top of the long-term-care beds, and that is about the money that is needed for capital for places like the North Centennial Manor in Kapuskasing and the Foyer des Pionniers dans la communauté de Hearst. First of all for Kapuskasing: this is a facility that has existed for a long time. It was under the old Cochrane District Homes for the Aged board when there was a corporation that ran both the Iroquois Falls and Kapuskasing sites, South Centennial Manor and North Centennial Manor, and at one point Hearst was paying into that as well.

Those things were built a long time ago. They're in need of repairs to bring them up to standards that are more in keeping with today. I'll be meeting very shortly, within the next couple of weeks, with the people at North Centennial Manor to see if there are any capital dollars available for them to be able to reconstruct the facility they have.

I say to the government that you've been really quick in saying, "We're prepared to add all kinds of beds to the system." My criticism of you is that it has all been in the private sector. You've forgotten that the not-for-profit and the municipal homes for the aged are also in need of capital dollars. Rather than taking all your dollars and giving them to your private sector friends to build long-term-care units -- you have forgotten that there are not-for-profit and municipal homes for the aged that are very much in need of money. One of those, for example, is the Kapuskasing one.

We're going to meet in the next two or three weeks to discuss in detail how much they need, what needs to be done, how big the building has to be, how many beds and all that. But I want to be able, on behalf of that community and the North Centennial Manor, to meet with the ministry to figure out if there are dollars available in order to go ahead with their capital requests.

Sur la question de Hearst et du Foyer des Pionniers, c'est encore une situation où l'on voit une communauté, qui est dynamique et toujours en train de travailler d'une manière très positive pour la communauté, qui a un très bon projet présentement. Il faut dire que, quand on fait quelque chose à Hearst, toute la communauté s'embarque. Moi, je suis fier de dire que je représente cette communauté dynamique. Dans la situation de Hearst on a l'hôpital Notre-Dame, et le Foyer des Pionniers, qui est l'institution de soins de longue durée, dans la communauté qui ont besoin de faire application pour les capitaux pour être capables de rebâtir leur facilité.

L'hôpital à Hearst et le Foyer des Pionniers, au lieu de faire leur fundraising séparément en faisant la compétition pour les mêmes dollars, ont fait ce qui est responsable et se sont joints sous un seul parapluie pour être capables de faire tout le financement, le prélèvement de fonds, à travers une seule voix pour les deux institutions. L'hôpital Notre-Dame et le Foyer des Pionniers travaillent ensemble pour être capables d'aller chercher de l'argent dans le secteur privé.

J'ai parlé à du monde qui ont été contactés par ce groupe de prélèvement de fonds. Ils me disent qu'ils ont été très bons dans leur devoir parce qu'ils ont cherché beaucoup de dollars où possiblement il n'y avait pas de dollars disponibles. Le comité de prélèvement de fonds a fait un vraiment bon job en allant chercher leur argent pour avoir leur pourcentage, pour faire leur projet.

Sur le bord du Foyer des Pionniers, on commence d'être inquiet avec le gouvernement provincial, qui jusqu'à cette date a promis des engagements pour être capable de financer sa part de la reconstruction du Foyer des Pionniers.

Moi, je veux encore amener le point, comme je l'ai fait par le passé, qu'on va continuer avec les réunions plus tard ce printemps en espérant que l'on va être capable de se rencontrer -- le monde du Foyer des Pionniers, le ministère et moi-même -- pour dire qu'il est important que vous financiez non seulement les institutions de soins de longue durée dans le secteur privé, mais que vous ayez l'argent pour payer celles dans le secteur public, telle que le Foyer des Pionniers.

C'est un peu différent pour le Foyer des Pionniers. Il faut être clair que, quand ils avaient été ôtés du vieux système, c'était d'origine ce qu'on appelle une « municipal home for the aged ». Là, ils se trouvent un peu dans le secteur privé en tant que « stand-alone, private corporation ». Même si on a ce statut, le gouvernement jusqu'à date n'a pas alloué d'argent pour la reconstruction de ce centre. Il est important que le gouvernement comprenne qu'il a des responsabilités envers le Foyer des Pionniers et de s'assurer que l'argent soit mis en place pour ce projet.

Le dernier point que je veux faire, parce que je sais que ma collègue, notre critique en matière de santé, aimerait avoir la balance du temps, est sur la question de ce qui arrive avec les soins dans la communauté.

Unfortunately in our community, as across the province of Ontario, we have many seniors and others who are not able to get the level of care they need within their homes from the CCACs. I don't blame the community care access centres. They're not the problem here. They have been trying to do with not a heck of a lot. As a result, our CCAC has had to reduce the hours of service they provide to citizens in our communities. As a result, a lot of those families are feeling quite hard done by.

I'm going to give you one example: Fern Montfort of Iroquois Falls -- a long-time resident of that community. I've known him for a long time. Unfortunately, he suffers from Alzheimer's. Up until September, he is getting 160 hours per month of care in his home. His wife, Angie, works at South Centennial Manor, which is the long-term-care institution very near Iroquois Falls. She wants to keep him at home because she knows that once he goes into the manor, his likelihood of surviving longer probably won't be very good.

Fern is one of these individuals who needs to be in his comfortable environment called "home," around his family. Every now and then, he recognizes where he is. They've just been advised that they're dropping him from 160 hours a month to 60.

That's devastating to the family. It means to say that Angie has got a decision to make. She either pays 17 bucks an hour to have care come in and provide for her husband, or she's got to quit work or a family member's got to quit work to take care of him, or they have to institutionalize Fern. I want to say on behalf of the Montfort family of Iroquois Falls that those are not acceptable solutions. It may not be my riding any more -- I used to represent Iroquois Falls in the former Parliament, but now with amalgamation, it's in the riding of Mr Ramsay -- but I raise this issue because I know that family well.

They are hard-working people who have paid their taxes all their lives, kept their noses to the grindstone and did what every good citizen should do, and that was contribute to their community, pay their taxes and give back. This is our chance to give back to them.

So on behalf of Fern, Angie and all of the family, I call on this government to make sure that we adequately fund the services in the community care access centres so people like Fern can live with some dignity and don't have to be institutionalized before their time.

Hon Dan Newman (Associate Minister of Health and Long-Term Care): I rise today as the Associate Minister of Health and Long-Term Care to respond to the opposition day motion regarding long-term care. Our government is committed to providing quality, sustainable long-term-care services in our province. We recognize that as the population of the province ages, there will be increased demands for long-term-care services in Ontario.

Let me say first that I'd like to take this opportunity not only to respond to the member opposite through his opposition day motion, but also to dispel some of the fearmongering that the members opposite have been engaged in regarding long-term care in our province -- I might add, at the expense of the facts and at the expense of our government's commitment to long-term care.

I would like to begin with the facts on funding for long-term care in Ontario. First, our financial commitment is very clear. Since the financial year 1995-96, long-term-care facility funding across Ontario has been increased by over $541.6 million to an unprecedented level of $1.644 billion, an increase of almost $550 million in long-term-care funding in the province. As of March 2002, we fund over 60,000 beds in long-term-care facilities in our province in some 521 facilities. Those 521 facilities include some 353 nursing homes, a further 100 municipal homes for the aged, as well as 68 charitable homes for the aged. That makes up the 521 facilities so far in the province of Ontario.

Yesterday I had the opportunity to open up 200 new beds at the Kensington Gardens facility here in downtown Toronto. It is a wonderful facility; it's a charitable home. The event was well-organized and it was well-attended by people within the diverse community served by Kensington Gardens. We also had the pleasure of having the Lieutenant Governor join us for the opening of those 200 beds. I just want to congratulate everyone at Kensington Gardens for the fabulous facility they've been able to build within their own community and to have all the community support that they do have for that.

We are the government that has not only listened, but we've also responded on the issue of long-term care. We heard people tell us that not one new net long-term-care bed had been built between 1988 and 1998 in our province. That was the time during which both the Liberal and NDP governments were in, during part of that time -- not a single bed between 1988 and 1998. The Liberals were in office from 1988 through 1990, and the first part of the 1990s was the NDP. Both of those governments failed to add a single new net long-term-care bed to our system.

After that decade of neglect, we embarked upon an unprecedented -- and I say it's unprecedented -- $1.2-billion investment in long-term care that includes the construction of 20,000 new long-term-care beds. That's 20,000 new net beds added to the system. I think the facts speak for themselves and I'm very proud of our government's commitment to building those 20,000 beds. In fact, in the year 2001-02, the Ministry of Health and Long-Term Care directed more than $1.66 billion toward long-term care and community services, which includes both community care access centre services and community support services. Nearly $2 billion of that money went directly to community care access centres.

Starting in 1998-99, we began a six-year, $55.8-million investment to expand and enhance community services. Those services include such things as in-home nursing, therapy and homemaking, supportive housing, attendant outreach, adult day programs and other community services such as Meals on Wheels and Friendly Visiting. That's where some of that money has gone to.

Since 1994-95, home care funding in this province has actually increased by an unprecedented 70% -- a 70% increase in home care funding from 1994-95 to today. We've increased community health spending by over 60% since the NDP was in gove