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August 28, 2012

40th Parliament, 1st Session

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Hansard Transcripts

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

Hansard Transcripts 2012-Aug-28 (PDF)

L070 - Tue 28 Aug 2012 / Mar 28 aoû 2012

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ONTARIO

ASSEMBLÉE LÉGISLATIVE DE L’ONTARIO

Tuesday 28 August 2012 Mardi 28 août 2012

ORDERS OF THE DAY

HEALTHY HOMES RENOVATION

TAX CREDIT ACT, 2012 /

LOI DE 2012 SUR LE CRÉDIT D’IMPÔT

POUR L’AMÉNAGEMENT DU LOGEMENT

AXÉ SUR LE BIEN-ÊTRE

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

ORAL QUESTIONS

ONTARIO PUBLIC SERVICE

ONTARIO PUBLIC SERVICE

TEACHERS’ CONTRACTS

GOVERNMENT’S AGENDA

POWER PLANTS

COMMITTEE WITNESSES

TEACHERS’ CONTRACTS

POWER PLANTS

MINING INDUSTRY

JOB CREATION

POWER PLANTS

HYDRO CORRIDOR

HEALTH CARE

POWER PLANTS

EMERGENCY SERVICES

NOTICES OF DISSATISFACTION

DEFERRED VOTES

ATTRACTING INVESTMENT

AND CREATING JOBS ACT, 2012 /

LOI DE 2012 VISANT

À ATTIRER LES INVESTISSEMENTS

ET À CRÉER DES EMPLOIS

NOTICE OF DISSATISFACTION

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

MEMBERS’ STATEMENTS

KYLE CLIFFORD

HABITAT FOR HUMANITY

QUEEN’S DIAMOND JUBILEE MEDAL RECIPIENTS

ONTARIO DISABILITY SUPPORT PROGRAM OFFICE

DIANA MATHESON

TEACHERS

FULL-DAY KINDERGARTEN

YOGA WARRIORS

SAUGEEN SHORES BUSINESS ENTERPRISE CENTRE

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

AMENDMENT ACT (BOARD OF

INTERNAL ECONOMY), 2012 /

LOI DE 2012 MODIFIANT

LA

LOI SUR L’ASSEMBLÉE LÉGISLATIVE

(COMMISSION DE RÉGIE INTERNE)

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY

AND RESPONSES

BOARD OF INTERNAL ECONOMY

ANNALEISE CARR

PETITIONS

RADIATION SAFETY

AIR QUALITY

TRANSPORTATION INFRASTRUCTURE

ONTARIO NORTHLAND TRANSPORTATION COMMISSION

AIR QUALITY

DOG OWNERSHIP

RADIATION SAFETY

ONTARIO COLLEGE OF TRADES

INFRASTRUCTURE ROUTIÈRE

BEER AND WINE SALES

ORDERS OF THE DAY

PUTTING STUDENTS FIRST ACT, 2012 /

LOI DE 2012 DONNANT

LA PRIORITÉ AUX ÉLÈVES

ADJOURNMENT DEBATE

POWER PLANTS

POWER PLANTS

POWER PLANTS

The House met at 0900.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Let us pray.

Prayers.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

HEALTHY HOMES RENOVATION

TAX CREDIT ACT, 2012 /

LOI DE 2012 SUR LE CRÉDIT D’IMPÔT

POUR L’AMÉNAGEMENT DU LOGEMENT

AXÉ SUR LE BIEN-ÊTRE

Resuming the debate adjourned on June 5, 2012, on the motion for third reading of the following bill:

Bill 2,

An Act to amend the Taxation Act, 2007 to implement a healthy homes renovation tax credit / Projet de loi 2, Loi modifiant la Loi de 2007 sur les impôts en vue de mettre en oeuvre le crédit d’impôt pour l’aménagement du logement axé sur le bien-être.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Further debate? The member for Scarborough–Pickering.

Ms. Tracy MacCharles: Pickering–Scarborough East, Speaker, with respect.

I’m very happy to speak this morning on the healthy homes tax renovation. This is something we’ve been talking about for some time on the government side, and it really does give priority to the programs that address the needs of families. We want to strengthen the economy, but most importantly we want to help seniors who can stay at home, who want to stay at home, to stay there as long as possible.

Of course, we’ll still continue to support seniors who need to be in a long-term-care facility—we’ll still continue to make investments there, but this credit is to help seniors who can stay at home and want to stay at home. We know the demographics are changing. We know that the age span of seniors is much larger now. We know that many seniors prefer to stay at home, if at all possible, and that there are better health outcomes associated with that. That’s why I think it’s very important that we move forward with the home renovation tax credit.

Not only will it help seniors stay in their home longer but it will help members sharing a home with a senior continue to keep the family together. I think everyone agrees that that’s incredibly important.

There are other benefits, such as tax benefits that benefit taxpayers by relieving pressures on long-term-care home costs. This home renovation tax credit is also estimated to support 10,500 jobs per year. That’s very significant in this economy that we’re in. This credit, if passed, will support about $800 million in home renovation activities. That’s the connection to the jobs and economy, Speaker.

If passed, effective October 1, 2011—so it’s retroactive—seniors, homeowners, tenants and people who share a home with a senior relative would be allowed to claim a refundable tax credit of up to $1,500 for expenses related to permanent modifications to their home. I was actually with the Premier of Ontario the day he announced that this tax credit would be retroactive to October 1, 2011.

That has resonated very well in my riding of Pickering–Scarborough East, as well as with other Ontarians—with seniors, with families of seniors—who see this as beneficial, and quite frankly a lot of them are getting ready to file their claims under this. They’ve been collecting receipts. That’s been the advice: Collect your receipts and get ready, because it is proposed to be retroactive. So the benefit will increase all the more, not just the day it passes here, but back to October 1, 2011. But we do need to get on with this. There’s a gap developing between that time and where we are now.

I think Ontarians expect us to move the passage of this forward.

People have also asked me, “Tracy, how are we going to pay for this program? You have a deficit. You’re very focused on reducing the deficit in government,” which we are, but I say that, yes, we have to reduce the deficit, but the program costs for this tax credit would be offset in other areas. So it’s in the context of the budget that’s already set. We, at least on the government side, firmly believe that the biggest threat to health care and protection of seniors and others is a deficit. So that’s why we have to address the deficit at the same time.

But the good news is that this program is fully costed out in the budget. If the take-up for this program is somewhat similar to what the federal 2009 home renovations tax credit is, up to 380,000 people could benefit from this credit every year—380,000 people. That’s fantastic. That will provide some financial relief to seniors and, as I said, more importantly, allow seniors to stay at home—those who can—and family members who are having a senior live with them could also claim the credit.

I know many residents where I live feel this is important. Continued home ownership is important to them, and this tax benefit really is part of a bigger package of things we are doing for seniors and have been doing for seniors to help them stay at home, whether it’s introducing more PSWs at home, our aging strategy. I can speak to that in a moment. It’s important to put this in the context of everything else—the family caregiver leave and other things like that; it’s just part of a bigger strategy to help seniors.

People ask me what kinds of things are permitted under this tax credit. I’ll just mention a few of those now.

Certain renovations to permit first-floor occupancy or secondary suites, such as granny flats or in-law suites: I see a lot of those happening more and more in homes where people want—

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Julia Munro): Excuse me. I’d just ask members to take their conversations outside or speak in a way that doesn’t interfere with the speaker. Thank you.

You may continue.

Ms. Tracy MacCharles: Thank you very much, Speaker. I appreciate that.

We’re seeing more creation of these in-law suites and so forth, so it’s great that those expenses would be eligible under this tax credit.

Of course, grab bars and related reinforcements around toilets, bathtubs and showers: I think we’re fairly familiar with those.

Handrails in corridors: This is again a small, often discreet thing that can make a big difference in terms of people moving from one place to another.

Wheelchair ramps; stairs; wheelchair lifts; elevators; bath lifts; walk-in bathtubs; wheel-in showers; widening passage doors: That’s very important, because the building code provides for a certain width for doors, but people’s wheelchairs can really vary in size. My husband, a paraplegic, has a certain size chair, but our friends in other chairs, especially powered chairs, have much wider dimensions to the wheelchair, especially those motorized chairs. Widening passage doors is often something that needs to be done, even in fairly new houses, not just older houses. That’s very important.

Lowering existing counters/cupboards; installing adjustable counters/cupboards; and also light switches and electrical outlets placed in accessible locations: We know that’s important. We’re talking about independence here as well, not having to rely on other family members or support people to do these basic things that allow us to function and allow seniors to function successfully in their home.

Swing-clear hinges on doors to widen doorways; creation of knee space under the basin to enable use from a seated position; and insulation of any hot water pipes: The tax credit is quite comprehensive as it looks at the total costs of these kinds of renovations.

Relocation of taps to the front or side of a sink for easy access; hands-free taps; motion-activated lighting: Again, these are things you often see in new houses today, so everyone recognizes these things are beneficial to everyone, but in houses that don’t have these features and for seniors who would benefit from that, the tax renovation will cover that.

Touch-and-release drawers and cupboards and drawers that pull out fully; modular and movable versions of a permanent fixture, such as modular ramps and non-fixed bath lifts: These are just some examples of what would be covered. This certainly isn’t a full and complete list.

Expenses would not be eligible if the primary purpose were to increase the value of the home, such as roof repairs, redecorating, new flooring or landscaping. The attempt, as I said earlier, is to help seniors who can stay at home and who want to stay at home to do so. That’s what this is all about.

As I said, this tax credit is really part of a broader number of measures, so it’s important to consider this tax credit in that context.

We’ve had a number of achievements around supporting seniors. I’ll just mention a couple of them that tie into this: the enhancements to energy and property tax credits for seniors. We have personal income tax cuts: On average, 93% of income taxpayers are getting personal income tax cuts and are now saving about $200 annually.

We have the Ontario sales tax credit.

We have seniors in the north: Northern residents who pay rent or property tax for their principal residence are eligible for an annual credit of up to $130 for a single person and up to $200 for a family. That’s a prime example where this tax credit works hand in hand with other initiatives associated with seniors staying at home and aging gracefully and with independence at home.

We have increasing access to locked-in accounts. The government introduced reforms to the rules for locked-in accounts, to give seniors and other Ontarians more flexibility in accessing funds in these accounts.

We have the generic drugs. Of course, we’ve all heard about that, where the government reformed Ontario’s drug system to facilitate lower generic drug prices, benefiting all Ontarians, but especially our seniors.

Pension and retirement income security, pension reform and the broader issue of retirement income adequacy are key priorities for the Ontario government. We’re playing a lead role in a national effort to review the state of the current retirement income system, its future sustainability and options that could strengthen it for tomorrow’s seniors. The government has modernized the Pension Benefits Act with two pieces of landmark legislation in 2009 and 2010 that received all-party consent. So, clearly, all parties are on board when it comes to pension and retirement income security for seniors.

On the health side, the government is strengthening the accountability of home care services among the service providers, community care access centres throughout the province, and introducing new quality measures to strengthen the way the CCACs make arrangements for home care services. I’m a recipient of that, and some of my elderly relatives are as well. I think that’s fantastic. It again ties into helping our seniors stay at home if they want to and as long as they want to.

In terms of retirement homes, for the first time in Ontario’s history, the care provided to seniors living in retirement homes will be regulated under provincial legislation. Now, that is just reinforcing the point I made earlier for seniors who cannot stay at home, who may not be able to take advantage of this tax credit. We are continuing to invest in seniors. It’s not only at home, as some critics have suggested; we will continue to invest in retirement homes and long-term-care facilities.

In 2007, the McGuinty government launched the four-year $1.1-billion Aging at Home strategy that I mentioned earlier. This is designed to provide support to seniors and their caregivers, to help seniors stay healthy and live with dignity and independence in the comfort of their own home.

Going back to long-term-care homes, we’ve taken steps to ensure that seniors who cannot live at home enjoy access to the very highest quality long-term-care services. Again, if a senior is able to stay at home and is able to take advantage of this tax credit, I think it is important that they know that we continue to make new investments on the long-term-care side, adding more than 8,200 new beds in long-term-care homes since 2003, increasing long-term-care funding by over $1 billion since 2003, funding more than 6,100 new front-line staff in those long-term-care homes, including 2,300 nurses.

In 2009, the government publicly reported through the Ontario Health Quality Council for the first time on quality of care in long-term homes in the form of resident health outcomes and satisfaction. So again, for seniors who are anticipating making that transition from home to long-term care, it’s important to look at that bigger picture.

We also have the Ontario strategy to combat elder abuse, whether seniors are staying at home or elsewhere. With $900,000 in annual funding from the Ontario Seniors’ Secretariat, the Ontario Network for the Prevention of Elder Abuse is working with local elder abuse networks and community agencies to implement the strategy’s three priorities. First is the coordination of community services; second, training front-line staff; and third, raising awareness of where seniors can get help.

We also have our affordable housing strategy, Speaker. We’ve also invested $540 million under the affordable housing program extension, which includes $307 million in dedicated funding for rental units for low-income seniors. This is very important because, as I mentioned, tenants are eligible under this healthy homes renovation tax credit as well. This affordable housing strategy goes hand in hand with that.

As part of the poverty reduction strategy announced in December 2008, the government is investing more than $5 million annually to stabilize funding for all 47 service managers that operate rent bank programs across Ontario. Since 2004, Ontario has invested more than $39 million in rent banks and has prevented more than 28,200 evictions. So again, affordable housing, combating elder abuse, long-term home care strategies, aging at home strategies in particular—all these things go hand in hand with the healthy home renovation tax credit.

We want seniors who can stay at home to be able to do that, and we want to support the families who support seniors. I can think of my own situation, where I had power of attorney for my grandmother and my great-aunt. The people supporting those people need the support too. That’s what this tax credit does by allowing people who own the house and who have a senior with them to be eligible for that tax credit. We know about the impact on caregivers. We know about the financial and emotional challenges of caring for an elder person.

So this tax credit provides some relief to those people who are taking care of a loved one at home and helping that senior continue to operate as independently as possible, with as much dignity as possible, through their golden years.

Just to sort of recap: Again, people ask me what the cost is. It’s about $60 million in 2011-12, and will be funded by lower spending on existing business support programs in the Ministry of Economic Development and Trade, as well as lower-than-forecast costs for tax-related expenditures on the revenue side. These savings fully offset the cost of the proposed healthy home tax credit in 2011-12.

As I said earlier, this tax credit creates many benefits from a jobs point of view and a construction industry point of view, but most of all, most importantly, it is to support our aging population, to support our seniors. It’s part of a bigger strategy. It is important that we get on with this. As I said, when the Premier announced the retroactivity of this proposed bill, it was very, very well received by people in my riding of Pickering–Scarborough East and many other ridings.

I just would be a bit concerned if we don’t move this along because asking people to save receipts further back—we all know how challenging that is, to keep track of expenses from the past. So I think it’s incumbent on all of us to work together to pass this bill and move forward. Thank you, Speaker.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Julia Munro): Thank you. Further debate? The member for Nipissing.

Mr. John Yakabuski: Questions and comments.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Julia Munro): Questions and comments: the member for Nipissing.

Mr. Victor Fedeli: Thank you very much, Speaker. I’m not certain that there are a lot of seniors with a spare $10,000, but what I can tell you is what the seniors are talking to me about in Nipissing, and they are talking about their high energy bills. So when I’m at energy forums, as I’ve been through many throughout Ontario, they ask the question, “Why has my hydro bill doubled?” I take the time to explain to them that the Green Energy Act is the culprit of their hydro bill being doubled. I take the time to give them some details about what has happened.

What has happened is that we have a so-called green energy plan that takes wind power and forces it into communities. It takes the decision-making power of their local municipalities away and leaves it strictly in the hands of the provincial government. It gives the wind producers the highest possible FIT program, feed-in tariff program, payments in the world, and it has caused a tremendous pain to the seniors. That FIT program is overly generous, and it allows for wind turbines and solar farms in areas that have seniors against seniors, families against families.

This is what the seniors want to talk about: why their energy bill is so high, and why a 500-foot-high wind turbine is being placed in Powassan or Trout Creek or Mattawa in my riding; why, when you drive down the main street of Sundridge, there’s a solar panel on Main Street. It’s because the decision-making power of the municipalities is taken away. That’s the issue that seniors want to talk about: their high energy bill. Thank you.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Julia Munro): Further comments and questions?

Mr. Paul Miller: I would just like to say that, in my humble opinion, this is just another political smokescreen to boost popularity of the Liberal Party before an election. I’ll have you know that if they really want to do something—$10,000 does nothing. Some 90% of the people cannot afford $10,000. So that’s a smokescreen.

Secondly, they might want to do something about the HST on there and the hydro. Half the people, or three quarters of the seniors in this province, cannot afford to pay their hydro bills, so where are you going to find the $10,000 that you have to borrow, Speaker—borrow—when you can’t even pay your bills, to do something that you can’t get done? The only possible way that this could happen is if maybe the service clubs in their area step up to the plate, like the Lions Club or the Optimists. Service clubs might be able to come and help some of the seniors with some of their changes to their structures.

But, Speaker, these half-measure bills that I keep seeing day in and day out in this place are just not doing anything for the people out there. People are unemployed; people can’t afford their bills. There are no jobs.

Everyone says, “Oh, everything’s great, and waiting times are down in the hospitals.” Well, I was in one yesterday: six hours before I saw a doctor—six hours. “Waiting times are down.” Give me a break. It’s not true. Everything is made out to make it look like honey and butter in this place, and when you get out in the real world, it isn’t happening.

So, with all due respect, Speaker, this is just another one of these bills to make them popular, make them look good, and nothing will be accomplished again. Thank you.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Julia Munro): Further comments?

Mr. Jeff Leal: Let me say at the onset this morning, I thought it was an outstanding speech delivered by my colleague from Pickering–Scarborough East on the healthy homes renovation tax credit.

But let me tell you a little story. Just last week I had to visit Rona, which is on Chemong Road West in Peterborough. My wife, Karan, sent me out to get some white paint. In fact, I was to do the painting this week, but I’m back here; the Legislature was brought back.

Interjections.

Mr. Jeff Leal: But let me say, when I was chatting to the manager—they’re very supportive of this healthy homes renovation tax credit. They can just see their customers lining up 10 deep, because when we pass this bill, they’ll all be coming in to buy those new bathtubs that are designed for people who have mobility problems. Then I went into other sections of Rona, where they have other devices that could be acquired by a senior, to keep them in their home, through this healthy homes renovation tax credit.

The member from Pickering–Scarborough East highlighted some of these issues this morning: that we have a number of businesses out there that will significantly take advantage of this.

I don’t know why the opposition wants to hold this up. Every seniors’ group in the province of Ontario is supportive of this measure. I tell them today: It’s time to get on board. Let’s generate business for Rona, Home Depot and Home Hardware.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Julia Munro): The member for Leeds–Grenville.

Mr. Steve Clark: Thank you very much, Speaker. It’s a pleasure to rise and provide a couple of minutes worth of comments on Bill 2, which the government calls the Healthy Homes Renovation Tax Credit. I’ve been up several times, done some questions and comments, had my rotations both at second and third readings, and I have to agree with my colleague the member for Nipissing. We’ve had so many people respond since the election last October about hydro costs.

I thought it was a big step for that first week that we met as a Legislature after the election that the opposition could move forward on Bill 4, which provided the relief that so many taxpayers spoke of during that campaign. The government, instead of moving forward with that legislation, instead of going with the will of the Legislature, presented this bill.

I have to tell you, unlike the member for Peterborough, I haven’t had a lot of folks asking for this. In fact, most people in my riding have talked about their inability to spend $10,000 on their homes. They don’t have that type of money to be able to provide the renovations that the government offers. In fact, when I did my rotation on this bill, I talked about a gentleman who did call me. His name is Ron Stewart. He runs a small business in my community that helps seniors in their homes: helps cutting their grass, doing odd jobs around their homes, things that aren’t covered by this bill.

I know that there are many businesses like Ron Stewart’s out there that try every day to do those little things that help a senior to stay in their home, to stay active, and don’t include large expenditures that seniors don’t have.

Speaker, I suggest this bill is not what seniors are asking for, and I’m glad to be able to provide those comments today.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Julia Munro): The member has two minutes to respond.

Ms. Tracy MacCharles: Thank you, Speaker. I just want to clarify some of the myths and facts. This often happens with legislation. Under this proposed tax credit, seniors are not obligated to spend $10,000 in renovations. No one is at all suggesting that. It’s a tax credit for expenditures up to $10,000. So there are seniors who will absolutely spend $10,000, and there are others who won’t. It’s a portion of that that’s the tax credit.

In terms of the members opposite saying people haven’t heard about the tax credit, well, that is indeed my concern, too. If we delay further and the whole rollout of this legislation gets delayed, we lose opportunity. We lose the momentum of people who have said they are anxious to see this come forward as part of a comprehensive package of supports for seniors.

There is communication work to be done, if and when the tax credit is passed. So I encourage all members opposite to move this forward and recognize it’s part of a bigger puzzle. This isn’t about home heating; this isn’t about other expenses. This is about renovating one’s home to make it accessible for seniors, whether the senior or a family member owns the home, to allow seniors who want to stay at home, who want to age with dignity and grace, to stay at home.

It’s part of a bigger puzzle. No one’s suggesting that this is going to solve everything and every challenge that seniors face. That’s why we have an aging at home strategy. That’s why we have more supports for long-term care and retirement homes. So I strongly encourage members opposite to consider this bill in that context, and while not every senior is doing renovations, those who are at home may do it and may find this an extremely beneficial tax credit.

Thank you very much.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Julia Munro): Further debate?

Mr. John Yakabuski: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I suppose I’m supposed to say, “Great to be back.” Great to be back.

Ms. Sylvia Jones: Thrilled.

Mr. John Yakabuski: Thrilled. Why are we back? We’re back to bail out the government from its own incompetence. That’s the reality, folks. I know we’re debating Bill 2 this morning, but I think it bears pointing out to the millions of viewers out there that the reason this Legislature has been recalled is to pass—interestingly enough, the education minister is the same one who came up with the Flick Off campaign a few years ago. Do you remember that?

Mr. Ted Arnott: Don’t forget the garage mahal.

Mr. John Yakabuski: And the garage mahal—we all know about the garage mahal. I don’t know where she’s parking all her cars these days.

She originally called this bill the Putting Students First Act, but typical of Liberal principles, as soon as they get some kind of push-back, my God, they change the name:

An Act to implement restraint measures in the education sector. Isn’t that something? It is very difficult in this day and age, in Dalton McGuinty’s Ontario, not to be just a little bit cynical.

Of course, we’re going to talk in depth on Bill 115,

An Act to implement restraint measures in the education sector, renamed, Madam Speaker. Of course, that’s going to be coming later today. This morning we’re talking about Bill 2.

Ms. Tracy MacCharles: Please. Thank you.

Mr. John Yakabuski: Patience, patience. We’ll get there.

But the cynicism is no less. When you look at Bill 2—and we’ve heard the Liberal spin, which is the order of the day. We get the Liberal spin on any kind of bill. I’ve been here since 2003, and I don’t think there’s been a Parliament yet—it’s been an increasing trend of the Liberals since 2003 to bring out bills that are designed solely for the politics of the issue, not about helping people in general, but the politics of the issue. Bill 2 is so much about the politics of the issue. It’s about separating people and, in the world of the Liberals, knocking the dominoes off one at a time.

This bill is designed for no other reason but to buy the votes of a group of people. One at a time, they’re going to put money out, which is everybody’s money, to try to secure the votes of one group of the population. This particular group is seniors, seniors to whom they say that with this rebate program, tax credit, you’ll be able to stay in your home longer.

We talk about seniors and the low-income side of the ledger. That’s the kind of senior that my mother-in-law is, for example. She’ll be 80 on her next birthday, and she just this year quit going out and cleaning people’s houses to earn a little extra money, because the only income she has—she emigrated from Germany in the 1950s. She never worked outside the home. Her husband worked in a sawmill making menial wages and also was a subsistence farmer. She has no other income except what she gets from her old age pension. She never had a job outside the home for which she was paid.

She worked like a dog on the farm—worked like a bull, worked like a horse, worked like an ox, whatever—but she never earned any money. She doesn’t fit into the category of a rich senior; she fits into the category of a poor senior.

But there is a category of rich seniors. We all know them. We all know the ones who go to Florida for the winter. They drive down with their Mercedes or their Cadillac or their Lincoln or something else. They are there.

Hon. Rick Bartolucci: Or they have a golf course behind their house.

Mr. John Yakabuski: That’s right. And when they’re here, they golf every day. They’re members of the country club. They exist.

We’re realists here, Speaker. Those folks don’t need the $10,000 eligibility tax credit, but they can get it. They can get it because that’s the way this Liberal government wants to play the game.

Every piece of legislation is designed not to deliver the most good, not to deliver the greatest amount of help to the greatest amount of people, to the largest amount of people, but it’s designed to, one at a time, “Let’s see if we can’t attract this group of people to the Liberal Party so we can hang on to power, so we can wreck this province more than we have in the last eight years and continue to do so going forward.” As the Premier says, going forward together—going forward to hell in a handbasket.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Julia Munro): I would ask the member to withdraw.

Mr. John Yakabuski: Withdraw, Speaker.

That’s what they want. This is all designed to, slowly but surely, get their tentacles into every little group of people and say, “We care about you. We’re the Liberal Party and we’re going to take care of you. We know best. We know best what is good for you.”

You know, when I talk to people about this bill, they’re actually shocked. “I don’t fit into the senior category,” they say. “But you know what? We’re struggling. We could use a little help, and all we get from Dalton McGuinty and the Liberals is more pain, more burden, increased taxes, increased energy bills and increased regulations.” People who work in the forestry business are losing their jobs because the Liberal government is basically doing everything they can to shut that industry down by regulating them out of business.

They ask me, “Is there anything out there to help us?” Regrettably, I have to say to them, “No, there isn’t, because you haven’t come into the plan yet. But maybe—just maybe—they’ll take some of the general pot of money and try to secure your votes with it as well.” That’s the way they work.

When you look at this bill, you ask yourself—the government talks about it being a priority. All they really want to do is keep talking about it, because this bill was introduced on November 23, 2011. We are now essentially in the fall session of the following year. I know this is called an extension of the spring session, just for the purposes of putting it in the right category parliamentary-wise, I suppose, but we’re almost into September; we’re almost into the fall session. A year will have gone by without actually implementing this bill.

It really sounds like a priority for this government to me when you take a year to even implement it. I mean, are they that lost over at that cabinet table or in the Premier’s office, the corner office on the second floor? I urge the folks out in television land to come and visit the Legislature sometime and go look at that—oh, no, you won’t be able to get into the corner office; sorry. I’m not sure what goes on in there; I’ve never been there. But you have to ask yourself, what kind of planning is going on there? Who are the deep thinkers there who say, “This is a priority,” and then cannot produce almost a year later?

Is it really a priority, or did they just want to talk about it? Do they just want to talk about how much they love our seniors and want them to stay in their homes? That’s the side of politics that I find really, really difficult to deal with. Whatever happened to straight talk? Whatever happened to just dealing with the issues that we get to deal with, dealing with the problems of society and forging ahead with workable, realistic solutions to those problems? Whatever happened to that, Madam Speaker? Is this what people have to look forward to in the 21st century, the games people play?

Who was it? Was it Joe South or somebody who wrote that song, Games People Play? It says: “The games people play now / Every night and every day now.” Well, maybe it will be night and day, because I think the House leader wants us to sit nights, to play more games in passing legislation in this House. Maybe they should have worked harder in the spring session to get this bill passed, but they didn’t do anything. They just sat there playing games—just by day.

Interjections.

Mr. John Yakabuski: You know, the bells—I hear there’s some ringing going on there. I think it’s in people’s heads, Madam Speaker. The bells do not slow down the passage of legislation at all. The clock keeps ticking. The clock keeps ticking throughout all of that process. It adds to the debate time, and this government, which has had no problem—no problem—coming up with closure motions on debates for whatever bill they want, could have done that on any bill. They always look to try to put the blame somewhere else.

Interjections.

Mr. John Yakabuski: I’m not a lawyer, Madam Speaker, but I’ll tell you, I did watch Law and Order once in a while. I stayed in a Holiday Inn Select one night, or whatever that was. You know, when they’d be fighting those cases on Law and Order, Jack McCoy would say, “You cannot close a door that you chose to open,” if he was dealing with the defence. The defence opened the door here. They wanted to talk about the bells.

So I think I have every right then, Madam Speaker, to talk about the reason for the bells and the disgusting scandal at Ornge that has been perpetrated on the people of this province by this government and that health minister. Where is the resignation of that health minister over the Ornge scandal? Why do they keep pretending that the things that went on at Ornge are somebody else’s fault? Now they want to talk about bells in this chamber? My goodness gracious, Madam Speaker.

You know, my riding is the subject now of an investigation in Ornge, a death, an investigation by the coroner of a lady who regrettably passed away in my riding as a client of Ornge—a client of Ornge. You know what happened, Madam Speaker? The night that it was raised in the House here, the CEO of Ornge called the deceased’s husband and apologized and said there would be an investigation. Do you know what they did at Ornge? A couple of months later, they sent out a customer satisfaction survey to the deceased lady asking her how she liked the service at Ornge.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Julia Munro): I ask the member to come back to the bill that we are debating.

Mr. John Yakabuski: I am back to the bells, Speaker. They talked about the bells.

Interjections.

Mr. John Yakabuski: Oh, the bill? I was talking bells.

So yeah, Bill 2. You know what? These folks are seniors. But a few months later she gets a customer satisfaction survey asking her how Ornge did. Quite an improvement at Ornge under this government, isn’t it? That was shameful.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Julia Munro): I remind the member to come back to Bill 2.

Mr. John Yakabuski: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I am running short of time.

I want to speak on a number of things. I’ve got a couple of things written down here, but they don’t actually speak to Bill 2, so I’m going to leave those for another time and speak about Bill 2,

An Act to amend the Taxation Act, 2007 to implement a healthy homes renovation tax credit—the healthy homes renovation tax credit, as we commonly know it by. We have to ask ourselves what they’re really trying to accomplish here. No matter how I slice and dice this, it comes back to the same thing: This is a cynical play at votes.

You know, I’ll get back to my mother-in-law for a minute, that group of seniors who fits into that category where they don’t have much. They do not have much. She doesn’t have $10,000 to do the renovations on her place. In fact, she has a hard time paying her hydro bill. So does everybody. A lot of people have a hard time paying their hydro bill in Dalton McGuinty’s Ontario, because he decided that politics would trump policy. He decided he was going to try to convince the world in Ontario that if we just go down with this subsidization scheme, we’re going to have a better power system.

He didn’t tell you that it was going to cost you; you’re going to pay through the teeth. No, he didn’t tell you that. So now we’ve got a situation where people are looking at their hydro bills and they’re asking, “What’s going on here? Why am I paying 150% increases in hydro since Dalton McGuinty took office?” And you know what, folks? It’s going to get worse.

Let’s talk about the politics behind the decision to cancel a power plant in Mississauga that we’ve opposed from the start. They paid $190 million to cancel that. Who’s going to pay for that, I ask the member from Pickering–Scarborough East? Who’s going to pay for that? Why don’t you tell your constituents who’s going to pay that $190 million? Shame on the lot of you. That’s $190 million, which they have admitted was for no other reason but to save seats in Mississauga. The Minister of Energy at the estimates had to admit it was a political decision—a political decision to shut it down.

So if you’re willing to put $190 million on the table for politics, how much are you putting on the table for this? How much are you going to put on the table for every other bill, every other decision that is made in this House?

Every time the Liberals do something, it is for politics, political reasons, and they do it with your money. The people out there who are hurting the most, the people who are struggling to get by in Dalton McGuinty’s Ontario, they’re the ones who get stuck with the bills for his ill-considered decisions. They’re the ones.

So when we debate this bill, and any other bill in this House—and I say to the members across the way, when you go home to your ridings and you face those constituents in the eye and they ask you how we got here, how we got to the point where we can spend $190 million for no other reason but to buy the seats in Mississauga—that is an admission; they’ve admitted that. The Premier himself has not commented. He sent out the Minister of Energy. He sent out the messenger boys.

But he has not commented on why a political party, in this day and age, could think it is right to take the people’s money and spend it in that way. Is that what we have to look forward to in this province? Not under a Tim Hudak government. Those things won’t happen.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Julia Munro): Questions and comments.

Ms. Teresa J. Armstrong: Speaker, thank you very much. It’s always a pleasure to listen to the member from Renfrew–Nipissing–Pembroke. You keep us very interested in what you have to say. There are a few things that the member did talk about which I agree with.

But first I want to highlight a couple of things I’ve been doing in my riding. I’m the seniors critic, and I hear from seniors a lot. The three things are on seniors’ worry lists when you talk to seniors.

First of all is health care. They’re worried about the health care we have in this province, and they’re worried about the health care they are receiving in their homes. It’s not enough for them. They need it to improve. They need more access to health care in their homes, especially rural seniors. That’s one big issue.

The other issue they have is a pocketbook issue. As the member from Renfrew–Nipissing–Pembroke pointed out, hydro is expensive. If you look at your hydro bill lately, especially with the summer we’ve had, the heat—it has been astronomically hot, and there has been a drought. People have had their air conditioning on. You’re getting bills coming in at $200 a month. Seniors can’t afford to stay in their homes if they have those types of bills.

They’re also worried, believe it or not, about jobs. A lot of my seniors are worried about the economy and how their children are going to keep their jobs and how their grandchildren are getting jobs, because a lot of their grandchildren can’t find summer jobs, or they’ve graduated from university or college and can’t find work.

So having this bill, the Healthy Homes Renovation Tax Credit Act, is a concern because they’re worried about so many other things as opposed to spending $10,000 that they don’t have in order to stay in their homes. We have to do better with the pocketbook issues and affordable housing for seniors.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Julia Munro): Comments?

Ms. Tracy MacCharles: I think it’s very unfortunate, when we’re discussing a bill and are hopefully trying to work together to improve the quality of life, in this case, of seniors who can and want to stay in their home, that it becomes so cynical, so partisan, so off-topic. Quite frankly, this discussion about bells and all that just shows that this bill, along with others, has taken so long to get to this point because of the delays.

The fact is, the Liberal Party is the government. We govern; that’s what we do. So we have a comprehensive strategy to help seniors. Other parties have been in government before, and they know what it’s like to govern. That’s our job, but to work in co-operation with the other parties. That’s why this bill went to committee; that’s why it was reviewed in detail there, clause-by-clause consideration. Here we are now, ready to pass the bill, I hope.

I think it’s all-important that we stay focused on what we’re talking about here today. We’re not talking about hydro bills explicitly. We’re talking about seniors staying at home, a tax credit, a part of a bigger strategy. No, not every senior will take advantage of this tax credit, and no, not every senior will spend $10,000 on home renovations.

Mr. Mario Sergio: They don’t have to.

Ms. Tracy MacCharles: Exactly. They don’t have to.

The important thing to remember is that it helps seniors stay at home longer. It helps family members sharing a home with a senior get some tax relief. It benefits taxpayers by relieving pressure on long-term-care facilities. It supports 10,500 jobs per year and about $800 million in home renovation tax credits. That’s fantastic. If passed, effective October 1, 2011, senior homeowners and tenants will be able to make a claim for a refundable tax credit up to $1,500 for expenses related to permanent modifications of their home. That’s good news. I encourage everybody to get on board and—

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Julia Munro): Thank you. Further comments.

Mr. Ted Arnott: The member for Renfrew–Nipissing–Pembroke has performed an important public service this morning: He has woken up the government benches. I think it’s commendable, and I certainly want to compliment him on the speech that he gave this morning. It was one of the best speeches I think I’ve heard in this current provincial Parliament. He is a powerful voice for his constituents in Renfrew–Nipissing–Pembroke, and that forceful and passionate manner he brings into this House is very effective in terms of representing his constituents.

I think he is, indeed, one of the greatest orators in the House at present. He talked about a number of things, of course Bill 2, the subject before the House today,

An Act to amend the Taxation Act, 2007 to implement a healthy homes renovation tax credit.

Of course, as we know, this bill was introduced almost a full year ago, and the government has only now gotten around to getting it to this point in the debate: third reading. We certainly question the management of the House from the perspective of the government House leader’s ability to get bills through the House but certainly also whether or not this is a high priority for the government.

As you know, Madam Speaker, when we discuss and debate finance bills—and this bill is brought forward in the name of the Minister of Finance—there’s usually a greater degree of latitude in terms of the debate.

I’m glad that the member did make reference to the $190-million penalty that the provincial government is going to be paying for its decision—its crass political decision, I would add, just before the provincial election was called—to cancel the Mississauga gas-fired electricity plant that was proposed for that community in order to placate the voters in a number of seats around the Mississauga area.

That was one of the most cynical political decisions that I’ve ever seen in the 22 years that I’ve served in this Legislature, by any government. I think that the people of Ontario are outraged when they hear about it, and I think it’s important that members of the Legislature respond to it. Certainly, the member for Renfrew–Nipissing–Pembroke did a great job outlining—

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Julia Munro): Thank you. The member for Hamilton East–Stoney Creek.

Mr. Paul Miller: I just want to commend the member from Nipissing-Pembroke for his passionate speech, but then again, I love the diversity in this House. We go from that to a calm, cool, collected approach by our member from London–Fanshawe, which was a nice mix.

I’ll say one thing: The member from Pembroke did hit on one thing about bills that give a little bit. I’ll give you a perfect example of what can compare to Bill 2, which is the $50 sports grant that the government came out with last year—$50 per family for sports equipment or sports registration.

Frankly, Speaker, that’s a joke. I mean, I might be able to sharpen my skates six times for 50 bucks if I’m lucky. It’s not doing anything for the kid that can’t afford registration in the first place. A lot of our local clubs help out kids that can’t afford to register, and they help out the families with that. So that was actually, to me, an insult—$50. What am I going to do with $50? That was one example of a fluff bill that’s done for political gain, and now we’ve got another one here for the $10,000.

They mentioned the 380,000 people that it’s going to help in Ontario. Is that the total number of seniors in Ontario? I don’t think so. And what demographic group does that represent? Does that represent people that can afford $10,000, or people that can’t? I’m thinking it’s the people that can. I’m sure there are more than 380,000 seniors in Ontario, with 14 million people or close to it.

Once again, as the member said, they’re appealing to a certain group to get votes. Usually, the ones in that group have a tendency to vote, more so than other people. So they’re targeting a special group that votes, and that really is sad. So I can safely say, once again, it’s about votes, it’s about saving seats. It’s not really for the people out there.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Julia Munro): The member for Renfrew–Nipissing–Pembroke has two minutes to respond.

Mr. John Yakabuski: I want to thank the members for London–Fanshawe, Pickering–Scarborough East, Wellington–Halton Hills, and of course, my friend from Hamilton East–Stoney Creek.

I just want to talk for a second about what the member for Hamilton East–Stoney Creek said about this rebate for hockey—50 bucks. The price of ice time’s going up all over the place. What is the number one reason why the price of ice time is going up?

Mr. Randy Pettapiece: Energy.

Mr. John Yakabuski: I say to my friend from Nipissing that, as he knows, it’s the cost of energy—power. And who has driven up the price of power more than anyone in the history of Ontario?

Mr. Randy Pettapiece: Dalton McGuinty.

Mr. John Yakabuski: Dalton McGuinty. And now he wants you to come up with another $190 million for the Mississauga fiasco, the Sousa centre, now defunct. The building of the Sousa centre has been cancelled. And what’s it going to cost for the Oakville power plant?

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Julia Munro): I’m asking the member to come back to Bill 2.

Mr. John Yakabuski: I was just speaking on the comments of other members, but I guess I won’t address them, then. I’ll just go to the bill.

Mr. Paul Miller: There’s so little—

Mr. John Yakabuski: Well, yes, there wasn’t a whole lot of substance there for some of them, but I did like what the member for Wellington–Halton Hills had to say, I must say, Madam Speaker. It was wonderful—

Ms. Sylvia Jones: So accurate.

Mr. John Yakabuski: Yes, and so accurate.

Anyway, again, it speaks to the cynicism that people have for this House and the people who occupy it. That’s one of the dangerous things in politics today: how people view the members of this Legislature. Behaviour like what’s going on on the other side, these kinds of cynical bills that are being put forward, only adds to the problem.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Julia Munro): Thank you. Further debate.

Ms. Cheri DiNovo: Thank you, Madam Speaker, and welcome back. It’s a pleasure and it’s an honour, always, to stand in this House, and in particular to stand and to speak on behalf of seniors, because somebody has to. It’s a little sunnier on the other side of this House. I listened intently to the words from the member from Pickering–Scarborough East, but I’d like to challenge her on some of the facts.

First of all, the figures: It’s going to create 10,000 jobs? I’d love to see the proof. It’s going to cost the government $800 million? I’d love to see the take-up. Because quite frankly, there are two reasons why seniors do not stay in their homes, and these are well-documented, factual reasons. One is the expense of keeping it up, and that can be heating, as we’ve heard; it can be hydro, as we’ve heard; it can be property taxes. It’s keeping up the home—and most of my seniors leave their homes because of that. Number two is because they need assistance to stay in their homes.

It’s not about widening hallways; it’s not about ramps. It’s about somebody to help you do the shopping, somebody to clean the leaves out of the gutters, somebody to mow the lawn. That’s what seniors need and that’s what drives them from their homes. Considering that almost half of seniors have a disability, that assistance becomes even more pre-eminent. This bill does absolutely nothing for those two reasons. It’s not going to keep seniors in their homes. It’s not going to work. If that’s the reason, the reason is faulty.

We’ve also heard that you don’t have to spend $10,000 to collect the $1,500 back, but the reality is, what can you get done for a couple of hundred? Even if you only spend that, you have to put the money up front and you have to wait for the money to come back at tax time. Seniors do not have even a few hundred dollars up front. Why, Madam Speaker? This is why: Almost one in 10 seniors in our province who are female live in poverty. They have a hard time feeding themselves, paying the rent and paying the property taxes, never mind making modifications and upgrades to their homes. One in 20 seniors who are male live in poverty. The same goes for them. They can’t afford anything extra.

I’d just like to correct my friend from Renfrew–Nipissing–Pembroke, however, about the hydro costs. In fact, the reason that hydro is so high in this province is that both the Conservative and the Liberal parties have wantonly gone down the road of nuclear energy and have put our money into nuclear. The cost overruns in nuclear are now hitting our seniors in their pocketbooks. But also, of course, it’s the HST , which is what this Liberal government brought in. That’s hurting seniors. We voted in this House to take it off home heating, but that hasn’t happened.

Now, if you want to see a program that does actually help seniors, you don’t have to look far. You look next door to Quebec. There they have a refundable $3,500 for low-income seniors. They’re the ones who need it, Madam Speaker. The people, as we’ve heard, who are going to Florida every winter, who can afford $10,000 up front, don’t need our help. The seniors who need our help are the people who are living in poverty, and the people who are living in poverty don’t have the money to put up front. In Quebec, they get that $3,500 if they’re low-income. That works. That’s smart. That’s what we need here, and that’s the kind of program that would actually help seniors.

Let me tell you the story of a senior in my riding, a classic story. This is a woman who owned her own home. She had to leave it. Why? Not for financial reasons, but because she didn’t have assistance. She was suffering from early-onset dementia and she couldn’t stay in her home, so she went into a long-term-care facility. It was a good one. But good long-term-care facilities cost a lot of money. They cost so much money that there’s a new breed of seniors now who go on cruises permanently. They get carried off them, quite literally, because it’s cheaper to go on a cruise than it is to go into long-term care.

That’s how bad it is in Ontario. It’s cheaper to put yourself on a boat and start circling the world than it is to actually go into long-term care, where people will provide you with care day in and day out if you have something like Alzheimer’s or early-onset or dementia, where you need that kind of care. This is the Ontario we live in.

So what happened to my friend? She goes into long-term care and guess what? Because she’s paying thousands of dollars every month, she not only pays the interest on the house that she sold, and she owned it outright, but she’s paying the principal. Guess what? She lives too long. What a fate should befall us that we outlive our money. That’s what happens to seniors too, because the longer we live, we live outside the bounds of what we can save for in any program that we have, including selling our homes. So what happened?

She moved from the good long-term-care home into the not-so-good long-term-care home, where she didn’t have a private room, where she had to share a room with another woman with dementia, where the care wasn’t as good. And guess what? She died shortly thereafter. That’s the life of a senior in this province. And lest we forget, these are the people who built this province. These are our grandparents; these are our parents; these are the people who sacrificed day in and day out, who paid for the roads, who paid for the infrastructure, who paid for the health care system.

These are the people who we are now ignoring.

This government is ignoring our senior population, and this bill, Bill 2, is window dressing. It’s not going to help anybody. I’d love to see how many seniors take this bill up and what their incomes are, because it’s not going to be a low-income senior. It’s not going to be seniors in my riding who I’m hearing from. They’re not going to take advantage of this bill. They’re not going to because they can’t afford it. They simply can’t afford to take advantage.

And where are these jobs? I’d love to see the proof, Madam Speaker. The government’s great about throwing these figures out. “Some $800 million we’re going to spend; 10,000 jobs we’re going to create.” Where? Show me the proof. I’d love to see the proof.

There are other jurisdictions who do it better, way better than even Quebec. Let me tell you about one. I travelled there. Because remember, coming back to my first point, there are two reasons that seniors move out of their homes. Number one is money; they can’t afford to keep paying the property taxes, the heating, the hydro. Number two is they need assistance. They don’t need wider hallways; they need someone to help them, just doing the menial stuff sometimes, somebody to come in. We could talk about how we’ve completely gutted that system too, Madam Speaker, but let’s leave it for a minute.

What have they done in some Scandinavian countries? Sweden, for example: Let’s look at what they do for their seniors. In Sweden, if you have a relative with dementia or Alzheimer’s or a disability that means they need your help, and you’re a relative—because guess what? 68 fSome % of the people who help seniors are relatives. What have they done? They’ve said, “We’ll train your relative. If you want to look after them, we’ll send you on a training course. We’ll get you into a union, a good union job. We’ll get you into a union. We’ll train you, we’ll supervise you and we’ll pay you.” And guess what?

It’s cheaper than institutionalizing, it’s cheaper than long-term care and it’s better, because it’s a person who loves you, who wants to work with you, who’s doing it anyway. They’re doing it anyway in Ontario. They’re doing it for free.

When we’re talking about the needs of seniors, we’re also talking about the needs of their caregivers, because that’s a crisis too—the crisis in caring for people who want to stay in their homes. It’s a crisis for those who work in those homes, who are paid many times less than minimum wage by the time they travel back and forth. It’s a crisis for relatives, who set aside their own dreams, their own desires, their own work, their own families—the sandwich generation; we’ve heard about them so often—to care for their seniors, because nobody else will and the seniors can’t afford to pay somebody to do that day in and night out.

Could we do it better? One thousand percent better. Will this bill help? Not one iota. You spend a few hundred dollars and you get $30 back or something at tax time. Oh, that’s going to change the poverty rates. That’s going to change the Alzheimer’s situation. That’s going to change the fact that our long-term-care beds don’t keep up with the need and the fact that people who work there get ripped off day by day. That’s going to change that not one iota.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Julia Munro): We’ve reached 10:15.

Ms. Cheri DiNovo: Thank you, Madam Speaker. It’s been a pleasure and I look forward to speaking more about it.

Third reading debate deemed adjourned.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Julia Munro): Thank you.

This House stands recessed until 10:30 of the clock.

The House recessed from 1015 to 1030.

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): I would like to take this opportunity to introduce a former member of this Legislature, Mr. Jim Brownell, the former member for Stormont–Dundas–Charlottenburgh. Welcome.

Hon. John Milloy: Mr. Speaker, I would like to recognize Kate Julien, formerly of my office, who is actually leaving my staff to go to law school. We welcome her back. Even though she’s left the place, she’s come back for a visit today.

Ms. Soo Wong: I’d like to welcome students from Scarborough–Agincourt: Akehil, Sarah, Raha, Nancy and Mary. Welcome to the House.

Mr. Peter Tabuns: Speaker, it gives me pleasure to welcome Romeo Tello from my riding, attending today. Thank you, Romeo.

Mr. Grant Crack: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, for introducing former MPP Jim Brownell. He also has a guest with him: Mr. Gerry Benson from Cornwall, who I’d like to welcome as well to Queen’s Park.

Mr. Kim Craitor: I’m pleased to introduce—and I think he enjoyed us so much yesterday, he’s back again today—my good friend Craig Brockwell from the teachers’ federation. Welcome, Craig.

ORAL QUESTIONS

ONTARIO PUBLIC SERVICE

Mr. Tim Hudak: My question is to the Premier. Premier, the Ontario PC caucus has been able to drag you, sometimes kicking and screaming but drag you nonetheless, to a partial wage freeze for teachers. The question is, now, what do we do next?

Yesterday I asked you why you have a pay freeze for teachers but not for CUPE power workers getting almost a 9% wage increase. Your answer seemed to be, “Well, it’s constitutional for teachers but it’s unconstitutional for everyone else.” I don’t think people actually believe that argument.

Let me try something else, though, Premier. You have given 98% of bureaucrats bonus pay increases who are supposed to have their wages frozen. Will you agree to the PC caucus call to end the McGuinty loophole, close it up and take away those bonuses that are becoming nothing more than another Dalton McGuinty giveaway?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: I want to start by reassuring my honourable colleague that in the matter of his support for our bill, which is designed to ensure that we protect progress in our schools and achieve our fiscal targets, I will defend this gentleman in that particular context and provide him with that reassurance.

I also want to say, Mr. Speaker, that on the matter of pay for performance, my honourable colleague will want to recall that he was at the cabinet table when they put in place that particular measure. We think it is less than satisfactory. That’s why we’ve undertaken to re-examine that. If my honourable colleague has any specific recommendations, we would be most welcome to receive those.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Supplementary?

Mr. Tim Hudak: Back to the Premier: Premier, you know that performance pay began as something to reward those hardest-working bureaucrats who save taxpayers money. It was a small, select group, the best of the best, but under his leadership, it’s mutated into—

Interjection.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): The member for Peterborough, would you come to order.

Mr. Tim Hudak: —free giveaway of taxpayer dollars: 98% got performance pay increases. And Premier, I remind you, this comes directly from a loophole you created in your public restraint act, subsection 8(3). Sir, you crafted this loophole and gave 98% of bureaucrats bonus pay increases.

Please help us understand how you can deal seriously and try to get wage freezes on one hand, because I don’t think you’re being serious enough, and give away 98% bonuses to civil servants who are supposed to have their wages frozen. Isn’t the right thing to do to follow the PC plan, close this loophole completely, and an across-the-board pay freeze for all of us?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: I think we’ve made it perfectly clear that the system that was developed by the PC government is unacceptable, and we’re going to have to make some changes to that. If my honourable colleague has any specific recommendations in that regard, we would be most interested in receiving those—something that goes beyond the rhetoric, ideally.

But I want to reassure Ontarians that I’ve asked my Minister of Finance to take a very close look at this. We’ll be eager to hear from all parties and all members with respect to what we need to do to ensure we have a fair system of remuneration in place.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Supplementary?

Mr. Tim Hudak: Premier, you’ve dug us into a $30-billion hole. The last 10 months have been wasted with more spending, no serious efforts to try to reduce the size and cost of government, and you turned what was supposed to be an incentive program for the best of the best into a general entitlement for everyone. Ninety-eight per cent of bureaucrats got bonus pay. That defies the definition—that defies rationality.

You, sir, just asked for my recommendation: End it. Close the loophole. Make it no more. Put a stop to it. Will you do the right thing and end the McGuinty loophole that gave 98% pay increases?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: Speaker, I choose—

Interjections.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Order, please.

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: I choose to interpret the enthusiasm that characterizes my honourable colleague’s intervention in this matter as a strong denunciation—

Interjection.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): The member for Nepean–Carleton, your leader asked a question and I think your party would like to have the answer. I’d like to have a little bit of quiet. Thank you.

Premier?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: My honourable colleague and I are on common ground when we both choose to denounce the policies originally put in place by the PC government at a cabinet table at which my honourable colleague in fact sat. I don’t think we want to defend that particular policy. We need to acknowledge its inadequacy, and I think we need to work together to put in place something that is more fair for all concerned.

ONTARIO PUBLIC SERVICE

Mr. Tim Hudak: Back to the Premier: I had hoped the Premier agreeing to what the PC Party had called for—a wage freeze, even a partial wage freeze on teachers—may have been a sign that he was actually starting to take things seriously, that maybe he had listened to the personal conversation he and I had back in November and since. But sadly, this looks more like a conversion of convenience.

Premier, this should be a no-brainer. This is basic. This is absolutely elementary. You created a loophole in your act, the public restraint act, subsection 8(3), that allows for 98% of bureaucrats to get bonuses that were supposed to be frozen. How can you negotiate seriously at the table in achieving any further wage freezes?

The question is, where do we go next? The Ontario PC caucus says an across-the-board wage freeze, a spending freeze, no more spending programs and close this loophole. Premier, no more waffling. Do the right thing. Close the McGuinty loophole and cut out these 98% bonus pay increases.

Interjections.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Order, please. Sit down.

Premier?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: Speaker, I appreciate the enthusiasm, again, with which my honourable colleague puts his questions, but I want to remind him yet again that we’re talking about a policy that was put in place by the PC government. We’ve all acknowledged its inadequacy, Speaker. It is no longer suitable. I think we need to find a way to work together to improve it and put in place a remuneration system that is fair to both taxpayers and people working within the public sector.

I think we’re on common ground there, Speaker, and I’d ask my honourable colleague to find a way to introduce some specific measures that we might acknowledge and to work with the government.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Supplementary.

Mr. Tim Hudak: You know, Speaker, the Premier’s quoted in today’s National Post saying the following: “We can’t do what we did for the past nine years.” Dalton McGuinty—

Interjections.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Would the member of Peterborough come to order, please.

Mr. Tim Hudak: —of course referring to the pay increases he’s given to teachers. A very fair point; I agree with the Premier on this. You gave away too much. You gave away the store, a 30% pay increase, threw money at every problem under the sun, and didn’t get results in return. We’ve dragged you kicking and screaming to agreeing to at least a partial wage freeze. The question, Premier: Is this a conversion of convenience or are you going to get serious about the problems?

Since then we’ve seen $190 million blown on moving a gas plant, continuing scandals at Ornge, 98% of bureaucrats getting pay increases when they’re supposed to be frozen. The path ahead: Freeze spending, freeze wages, no more increases, no more sliding backwards. Get serious about the situation, Premier. Is this convenience? Is it a newfound religion? Do the right thing: Close the loophole and freeze spending across the board.

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: I appreciate the heat but I think Ontarians would more appreciate a little bit of light on this subject and I’ll try to shed a little bit more on it now.

This program was created in 1996. It was expanded in 2001 and 2002. What we have done in fact is frozen the pool that’s available for pay-for-performance, and we’ve reduced it in size now so that it’s the same size today as it was back in 2003, just so we’re clear as to the reality of this matter.

Again, I say to my honourable colleague that we no longer are prepared to accept this deficient PC policy and we need to work together to ensure that it’s fair for all concerned.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Supplementary?

Mr. Tim Hudak: Premier, over nine years, you’ve turned what was supposed to be an incentive for the best of the best into a freebie, another Liberal giveaway where 98% got a backdoor wage increase.

I ask a straightforward question, “Will you close the McGuinty loophole?” and I get this waffling, Speaker. He’s going to look at it. He’s going to study it; he’s going to examine it. He’s going to pursue his options. Sir, there are no options. Close the loophole and freeze spending—an across-the-board wage freeze. We had hoped that you had finally gotten that the province is in a substantial hole. It’s time to take a different course, one that will grow the economy and reduce spending.

Premier, I’ll ask you again: Will you close the loophole as part of an across-the-board wage freeze and freeze spending where it is? No more increases. No more runways. Put down the shovel. The hole is deep enough. Will you do the right thing, Premier?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: I hear what my honourable colleague is saying, but what I understand is a reckless head-on rush to close hospitals, close schools, fire teachers, lay off nurses. That’s not an approach that we’re prepared to adopt on this side of the House. I think we have a responsibility to be thoughtful. I appreciate the volume that characterizes my honourable colleague’s interventions on this matter, but we will remain, nonetheless, thoughtful. We would denounce that particular policy put in place by the PC government. We will improve it and put something in place that is fair to all concerned.

TEACHERS’ CONTRACTS

Mr. Peter Tabuns: My question to the Premier: Just a few weeks ago, the Premier denounced a plan by the Conservatives to impose contracts on public servants as “simplistic and unconstitutional and certain to be overturned by the courts.” Now he’s working with the Conservatives to do exactly that. Has the Constitution changed?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: I appreciate the question from my honourable colleague. It’s a little bit complicated, but it’s worth making the effort to try to understand. I’d ask my honourable colleague to acknowledge the facts connected with what we are doing which led up to the evolution and introduction of the bill which is the subject of his question.

It started some six months ago. We sat down with our teachers’ federations. We engaged in a sincere, genuine and determined effort to achieve a negotiated resolution. We did that with 55,000 teachers. So we have made a strong, concerted, determined and deliberate effort to achieve a negotiated settlement. But we are in fact running out of runway. So we’ve laid down a good foundation of negotiations. Now it comes time for us to introduce a bill, and that’s what we’re doing.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Thank you. Supplementary?

Mr. Peter Tabuns: The Premier needs to know that constitutional experts are saying that the government has it wrong. As one law professor noted, “The fact that you’ve simply bargained for six months—or any period of time—isn’t the case law.” She went on to guess that the government likely doesn’t care. In two to four years, when the consequences are felt and have to be dealt with, perhaps by another government, it doesn’t matter to them.

Why should parents believe that this isn’t yet another case of the government playing short-term politics that leaves us with an extended long-term and expensive mess?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: Speaker, I think it’s perfectly clear that the NDP believe, at this point in time, at this point in our economic history, notwithstanding our challenging fiscal circumstances, that Ontario teachers should be given a pay hike at this point in time. We can’t afford that right now. We’re not prepared to do that, and I think teachers understand that. That’s why 55,000 Ontario teachers have signed on to the road map that we’ve worked long and hard to negotiate. So we see the world differently.

I’m proud of the fact that we’ve hired 13,000 new teachers. I’m proud of the fact that we have lowered class sizes, proud of the fact that we’ve hired 10,000 more support staff, proud of the fact that we have more teachers for art, phys ed and those kinds of programs. The purpose of the bill is to protect those programs, protect our progress and protect all those jobs for Ontario teachers.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Supplementary?

Mr. Peter Tabuns: I think most people understand the purpose of the bill is to win by-election seats. That’s what we’re talking about.

This isn’t the first time we’ve seen this government do whatever it takes to win power for themselves. Families across Ontario are now paying the $190 million that the government risked when it moved to save seats in Mississauga and Etobicoke. Now, the government is willing to waste millions more and create conflict for kids in our classrooms.

Is the government ready to stop playing politics and work to get a solution that actually works for students, their parents and a public that’s fed up with paying the price for this government’s quest for a majority?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: I want to remind my honourable colleague of a quote that he offered on September 26, 2011, in connection with the Mississauga gas plant. He said, quite simply, “We wouldn’t build it.” I want to acknowledge his support for this.

Again, I want to speak to our record of support for publicly funded education in Ontario. In addition to those 13,630 new teachers, in addition to lowering class sizes and hiring 10,000 more support staff, we’ve offered teachers more prep time. We’ve put in place already more professional development days. We introduced the Premier’s Awards for Teaching Excellence, Speaker, to recognize excellence that takes place in our classrooms every single day. Tens of thousands of teachers have benefitted from the many professional learning opportunities offered by the literacy and numeracy secretariat.

That is a small sampling of the facts when it comes to our commitment to teaching and excellence in all of our schools in Ontario.

GOVERNMENT’S AGENDA

Mr. Peter Tabuns: Speaker, again to the Premier: In 2003, this Premier, then in opposition, stood in the House and spoke to government plans to impose contracts, saying, “This has nothing to do with returning ... kids to their classroom. It has everything to do with political opportunism and preparing themselves to go into the next election.” He went on to say, “[Y]ou can’t legislate goodwill and legislate respect.” What changed?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: Speaker, I find it interesting that the NDP had no education platform in the last election. I would gladly put our record of achievement, our record of co-operative good will, our record of progress inside publicly funded schools up against theirs any day.

I would encourage my honourable colleague to simply reconcile himself to the fact that that party believes that it’s right and appropriate and fair to all concerned that we give teachers a pay hike today. I’m saying we can’t afford to do that, not right now. We’ve increased their pay during the course of the past nine years. Right now, we need to hit the pause button. We need to ensure that any money available for education goes into full-day kindergarten, goes into smaller classes, goes into progress with test scores and grad rates. That’s the choice we’re making on behalf of Ontario families, and I believe that’s a decision supported by Ontario teachers.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Supplementary?

Mr. Peter Tabuns: Always amusing.

The reality is that this government has completely reversed itself so many times that nobody can tell what they believe anymore. The government that denounced Conservative wage plans as unconstitutional, certain to cost millions in the long run, is now working with the Conservatives to risk just that. The government that promised to put kids in the classroom first has thrown that away in the hopes of picking up seats in the Legislature.

Why should parents believe that the Premier has a plan for our schools when he’s engaging in the sort of politics he used to denounce?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: I always appreciate the opportunity to converse with my honourable colleague.

I think it’s important to make it as clear as I can with respect to the distinction in terms of the position that we’ve adopted in this matter. We can’t afford to give teachers a pay hike at this point in time. My honourable colleagues in the NDP want to give teachers a pay hike in 2012. We can’t afford to do so. We’ve got to make some choices. The choice we make is that any money we have that’s available for education will go into continuing to roll out full-day kindergarten so it’s available for 250,000 of our youngest learners—

Interjections.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): I would repeat the same thing to the members of the NDP caucus. You asked the question. You may not like the answer, but I’d ask you to listen to the answer.

Continue, Premier.

Interjection.

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: I think it was for me.

Speaker, the NDP believe that we should be giving teachers a pay hike; we don’t. We think the money that’s available—

Interjections.

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: If they don’t think teachers should be getting an increase in pay, then they should go out there and say that. Go out on the front lawn today and say that: They’re not going to get an increase in pay.

Interjections.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Sit down, please. Order, please.

Supplementary?

Interjection.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Would the member for Hamilton East–Stoney Creek come to order, please. This is the last warning.

Supplementary?

Mr. Peter Tabuns: Speaker, the Premier made it clear yesterday what his priorities were when his first act of a recalled Legislature was to hit the campaign trail in Kitchener–Waterloo. He thinks he can fool voters with a divisive and risky plan, a plan he knows won’t work. I don’t think people are going to be fooled.

When will the Premier stop playing politics and work to get a solution that actually works for kids in the classroom?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: So we’re clear, they don’t want us to do anything with respect to the ONTC. They don’t want us to touch the subsidy for horse racing in Ontario. They want to give teachers a pay hike in Ontario. They want to give doctors a pay hike in Ontario.

This represents the height of irresponsibility. We have to act responsibly in government. The times have changed, and so must we. We must make decisions that support health care, that support education. We’ve got to do so in a way that also meets the needs of Ontario families. That’s what we’re going to keep doing.

POWER PLANTS

Mr. Victor Fedeli: My question is for the Minister of Energy.

This summer, our party used every means available to get to the truth about cancelling the Mississauga power plant. Finally, after hiding behind the pages of a lawsuit, the minister announced the shocking news: The Liberals spent $180 million. Only a few days later, his colleague corrected the number, announcing it’s really $190 million. “Honest; we mean it this time.”

There are 600,000 unemployed men and women in Ontario. Minister, can you please tell those 600,000 people how spending $190 million and getting nothing in return, not even one megawatt of power, is helping them get back to work this morning?

Hon. Christopher Bentley: Those who are looking for work in the province of Ontario are always our first priority. That’s why we’ve made sure that there’s enough electricity for reliable generation in the province of Ontario. There wasn’t when they left office in 2003. That’s why we reformed the tax system, to make sure we supported job creation in this province. They voted against it. That’s why we decreased the amount of tax on investment for manufacturing equipment. They voted against it. That’s why we’ve supported the southwest economic development fund. They voted against it.

The only thing they supported was the cancellation of the gas plant, which now they’re trying to reconcile from—

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Thank you. Supplementary?

Mr. Victor Fedeli: Back to the minister: We know now the damage in Mississauga. Yesterday my colleague from Cambridge had to call for the minister to be found in contempt of the Legislature because he still hasn’t turned over the Oakville power plant documents. Imagine that, Speaker. What is this government hiding? Just how bad is the bill going to be for Oakville? The opening ante is $300 million, but will it exceed $1 billion, as many insiders are suggesting?

Minister, the 600,000 unemployed in Ontario deserve better. They deserve an answer from you. In fact, your fellow parliamentarians deserve an answer from you. Will you today provide this House with the cost of cancelling the Oakville power plant?

Hon. Christopher Bentley: I’m reminded that we have a vote on the southwest economic development fund right after question period.

What we said from the beginning—

Interjections.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Once again, if you ask a question, I ask you to listen to the answer. If the noise continues at the level it is, I can’t hear the answer, so, please, order.

Minister?

Interjection.

Hon. Christopher Bentley: What we said from the beginning, when we became the government, and—

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): The member for Renfrew–Nipissing–Pembroke, I just stood up and asked for order, and I didn’t have a chance to even hit my seat and you were at it again.

Minister?

Hon. Christopher Bentley: What we said from the beginning, as we proceeded to implement the commitment we made with respect to the gas plant, is that as soon as we had more to say about the issue, we would immediately tell the people what that was.

We did not conclude those confidential discussions until the Monday—I believe July 10—and the day after, we were out there with documents and with numbers, talking about the relocation of the plant to Sarnia–Lambton. That’s the position we’ve taken consistently.

Now, I know there’s a motion before the House, and I know the Speaker has it, and we’ll await the Speaker’s ruling as we reconcile the competing interests here, and the public interest, which we’ve always stood to defend.

COMMITTEE WITNESSES

Mr. Jagmeet Singh: My question is to the Premier. Tomorrow, the Ornge hearings at the public accounts committee will resume. MPPs on the committee must be allowed to get to the bottom of what really happened at Ornge. But after a witness who appeared before this committee was swiftly suspended from his job at Ornge, many are wondering if this can actually happen.

Why is this government allowing witnesses to be intimidated and preventing the committee from getting to the bottom of this scandal?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: To the Minister of Health.

Hon. Deborah Matthews: Thank you for the question, and of course we support the work of the committee. I’ve had the pleasure of appearing not once, not twice, but three times before the committee. I know you’ve heard from many, many witnesses, and I know that the people who are sitting on that committee have a lot of good advice to give us. It’s very important that we continue to do the rebuilding at Ornge. We need to pass Bill 50. If the member opposite really is interested in moving Ornge forward, let’s pass Bill 50. Let’s get the recommendations from the committee. We’ve got work to do. The people of this province deserve no less.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Supplementary?

Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Mr. Speaker, I have to reiterate. The concern is that the committee has to do its work. Why is this government allowing witnesses to be intimidated? Witnesses who appear at committee should not be threatened with reprisals. The Premier and the minister have all talked about all the change at Ornge. They’ve talked about the change and what’s going on at Ornge.

Interjection.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Would the Minister of Energy come to order, please?

Mr. Jagmeet Singh: When we hear about suspensions dealt out to the very people who are appearing at the committee to assist us with getting to the bottom, with getting to the truth, it doesn’t seem like this is the case. It does not seem like there is actual change here at Ornge.

Can the Premier or the minister provide assurances to the committee, assurances to this Legislative Assembly, assurances to Ontarians that those who testify at committees will not face repercussions for simply telling the truth?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: Speaker, I know that the public accounts committee has worked hard over the summer. I’m told that there have been 54 witnesses who have appeared before the committees; over 75 hours of hearings. We do need the recommendations from that committee.

We’ve done a lot of work. We’ve got new leadership, and we’re moving forward. But we need the opposition to complete the job. We need the support for Bill 50, which includes whistle-blower protection. We need the support of the opposition to pass Bill 50. We need those recommendations from the committee. I think the people of this province want to see progress at Ornge. They’re seeing that; let’s finish the job with those two pieces.

TEACHERS’ CONTRACTS

Mrs. Teresa Piruzza: My question is for the Minister of Education. Minister, this House has been recalled to address the proposed Putting Students First Act. The government has asked teachers to take a pause in their pay. Some unions walked away from discussions with the government. ETFO, the public elementary teachers, left the provincial discussion table after only one hour. Now unions have threatened to take the government to court over the proposed act. Minister, I’ve heard concerns from my constituents and in this House about the constitutionality of this bill. Can you please tell the House if the legislation is constitutional?

Hon. Laurel C. Broten: Thank you to the member for Windsor West. Mr. Speaker, we didn’t take the decision to introduce the legislation lightly. But after six months of working with our partners in education, we feel that we need to act in the best interests of students, and we made the decision to introduce legislation.

If this bill is passed and then challenged in court, the government’s position will be that it is constitutional, that we have respected the constitutionally protected right to a process of collective bargaining, and that in any event, under the Charter of Rights, the bill is both reasonable and justified in all the circumstances.

The proposed bill ensures that compensation within our education system, a $17-billion public sector wage bill every year, which represents 85% of education spending, responsibly and fairly accords with the fiscal parameters as laid out in the 2012 budget. More importantly, it ensures that the gains that we’ve made over the past nine years in the classroom experience for students are protected.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Supplementary?

Mrs. Teresa Piruzza: Thank you, Minister. Speaker, my supplementary is also for the Minister of Education. As a member of this House, I recognize that this government has weathered the worst recession in a generation better than most jurisdictions. I also recognize that this government is making tough choices to protect education in Ontario because our students are our future. But, Minister, I’ve heard the third party say that there’s a court case out of British Columbia that would indicate that the proposed Putting Students First Act is unconstitutional. Could you please tell the House: Is this true?

Hon. Laurel C. Broten: I’m very pleased to have a chance to speak to this issue, Speaker, because there are some significant differences between the situation in the BC case and what’s happening here in Ontario. In British Columbia, the government gave 20 minutes’ notice to the unions that they were changing the collective agreement, and as a consequence they were subject to a Supreme Court ruling which found that they did not respect the constitutionally protected right to the process of consultation and consideration in good faith.

In Ontario, we’ve been at the table in discussions since February, and we’ve been clear about the challenges we need to meet together. We’ve reached agreements with teachers in over half of the boards in the province—OECTA and AEFO, who together represent 55,000 teachers. We’re not closing the door on negotiated settlements. There’s still time to negotiate deals, even under the legislation, if passed. The parties do have scope to negotiate collective agreements.

But I would encourage the members opposite to pick up the BC case and have a read through the BC case, because when they do, they will find the following words: “There was no meaningful consultation with unions before it became law.” They gave them 20 minutes’ notice. This is a very different situation than the road that we have taken here in Ontario.

POWER PLANTS

Mr. Steve Clark: My question is to the Minister of Energy. Nine years of Liberal scandal, waste and fiscal incompetence has left Ontario finances in shambles as we speed towards a $30-billion deficit and a $411-billion debt. We’re here this week, Speaker, because the education minister bungled negotiations with educators, and now the Ontario PCs have to bail her out. Now you’re caught in the shameful decision by the Liberal campaign team to put political interests ahead of the public good by cancelling the Mississauga and Oakville power plants. In desperation, the campaign ordered hundreds of millions of hard-earned taxpayers’ dollars to be thrown down the drain to save Liberal seats.

Minister, how can you defend the indefensible by not coming clean with this House and the people of Ontario on who made those decisions, when they made them and how much they’re going to cost the taxpayers of Ontario?

Hon. Christopher Bentley: I might have missed something, but the cancellation of Mississauga was a decision they supported, in fact the very same day. What we said from the beginning was, as we conducted very delicate negotiations, before they reached a conclusion, it was not in the public interest to speak in detail about those negotiations or where they were at, until they reached the conclusion. I spoke to them right after we reached a conclusion.

I remember the eight-year journey. I remember the lights went out in 2003; I remember we didn’t have enough power; I remember we inherited a deficit when they said there was a balanced budget. We remember where we were, and in energy we remember where we are: the hottest three months in history, and we had enough power and the lights didn’t go out.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Supplementary?

Mr. Steve Clark: Back to the minister. Minister, you know how this is going to play out. We’ve seen it over and over, most recently with the Minister of Health, who stood up day after day, ultimately losing all credibility, as the facts on the Ornge scandal came out. Is this really where you want to go? Do you really want your legacy to be that you’re going to withhold facts because of client-solicitor privilege? We all know that that doesn’t belong and that doesn’t apply to this House.

Minister, you won’t release the information, so I’m going to ask you: What’s worse? Deciding to sacrifice hundreds of millions of dollars on political expediency or feeding the growing cynicism Ontarians feel about politics by blindly defending a government that will do or say anything to get elected?

Hon. Christopher Bentley: We’ve always been acting in the public interest. We listened to the public in cancelling and committing to relocate, negotiating on behalf of the public, in private, to get the best result. We were able to relocate. It was a decision supported by the PCs during and after the campaign. What I’ve said with respect to all issues is that it is in the public interest that negotiations, delicate as they are, be conducted in private. That issue is before the Speaker, and the Speaker will make the decision and we’ll abide by the decision. It’s always in the public interest. There was a lot of discussion about that yesterday, and it’s the Speaker’s position to resolve that.

But it’s also in the public interest that we support the southwest economic development fund, and I happen to have a letter here from the mayor of Kitchener, asking that Bill 11 be supported. It’s obviously in the interests of that city and that region to support, and we hope you’ll do that in the public interest.

MINING INDUSTRY

Mr. Gilles Bisson: My question is to the Minister of Northern Development and Mines. Minister, you know that the largest project to be undertaken in northern Ontario, when it comes to mining, is potentially the Ring of Fire projects. Can you confirm if you’re in any way in discussions with Cliffs resources to sign a ministerial permit allowing ore to be shipped out of Canada?

Hon. Rick Bartolucci: We are very, very excited about the Ring of Fire. There are several aspects that the government is speaking to Cliffs about, which will be no surprise to the member from Timmins–James Bay, because we were very, very excited. I think members on both sides of the House were very, very excited when Cliffs decided that they were going to build their processing plant in Ontario.

So we look forward to the potential that the Ring of Fire will bring to I think everyone in Ontario, in particular northern Ontarians.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Supplementary?

Mr. Gilles Bisson: Wow! We are so excited with that answer, we’re beside ourselves. My Lord.

I asked you a very simple question, Minister, a very simple question: Are you, yes or no, in discussions with Cliffs resources to sign a ministerial permit allowing the shipping of raw chromite out of Canada? Yes or no? That’s all I want to know.

Hon. Rick Bartolucci: Well, you know what? Maybe the member from Timmins–James Bay isn’t excited about the Ring of Fire, but I can tell you that everybody else in northern Ontario is very, very excited. In fact, the mayor of Timmins is very, very excited. He’s looking for the opportunity that this very exciting project will bring to the people of northern Ontario.

We look at the job creation opportunity. We look at the spinoff benefits of the supply and services sector with regard to the Ring of Fire. We look at the investment, the infrastructure investment, that’s naturally going to take place from the Ring of Fire. We look at the additional mines that will come on board. We look at the opportunity for our First Nations.

To say that he isn’t excited about the Ring of Fire certainly isn’t reflective of what the people of northern Ontario—

Interjections.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Thank you.

JOB CREATION

Mrs. Liz Sandals: My question is for the Minister of Economic Development and Innovation. This summer I spent a great deal of time speaking to my constituents in Guelph about our economy. It’s clear from them that the economic recovery remains their top priority. Thankfully, the McGuinty government has a strong plan to balance the budget and continue to take the necessary steps to keep our economy on track. I’m proud that our government is taking the needed steps to lead us through these tough economic times, allowing us to balance the budget while protecting health care and education.

Guelph has bounced back with jobs in the auto sector and the green energy sector, but my constituents are still nervous, given the world economy. They still want to know how we will support job creation and economic growth. Speaker, through you to the minister, how has Ontario fared in job creation thus far?

Hon. Brad Duguid: Our economy is steadily recovering from the global recession. We’re creating jobs. In June and July combined, Ontario created 30,000 new jobs. In total, we’ve now created 350,000 net new jobs since the recessionary low in 2009. We’ve steadily been outpacing the UK, the US and all Great Lake states when it comes to job creation since 2009.

Our government has created the right climate for business investments by reducing corporate taxes, by investing in building the best-educated and best-trained workforce in the world and by fostering a climate for research and innovation. That’s why companies continue to invest in Ontario.

While we’re heading in the right direction, we recognize there’s still more work to do. We’ll continue to fight on behalf of Ontarians to create jobs and keep this economy on the right track.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Supplementary?

Mrs. Liz Sandals: As more and more jobs are created and retained here, there is a real sense that Ontario is catching steam, yet there are still many people unemployed in southwestern Ontario. My constituency office still receives phone calls from people, young and old, who are looking for work. The people of Guelph want to know what further steps can be taken. They want to know what we are doing specifically in southwestern Ontario.

Speaker, I’m glad that the minister has acknowledged that there is more work to be done, but, through you to the minister, I would like to ask: What is the most important thing this government can do in the short term to continue this positive trend and get the people of southwestern Ontario back to work?

Hon. Brad Duguid: Later on today, this Legislature will have before it Bill 11. That bill will make permanent the eastern Ontario development fund and create the southwestern Ontario development fund to create jobs throughout southwestern Ontario and eastern Ontario.

Many of us just came from AMO last week, and I’ve got to tell you what municipal leaders have been saying right across this province, from the city of Kitchener, through to the town of Norfolk, through the towns of London and Windsor. They’ve been saying that the PCs should be supporting this legislation.

But it’s one thing for them to oppose the bill. It’s quite another for them to have deliberately delayed the bill. Those dollars could have been flowing into southwestern Ontario today, in August, but they’re not, because those guys on the other side deliberately delayed this legislation.

They can make amends today, this afternoon, by supporting us, by supporting Bill 11, by supporting jobs in southwestern Ontario and eastern Ontario.

POWER PLANTS

Ms. Lisa M. Thompson: My question today is for the Minister of Energy. Minister, your colleague the Minister of Finance corrected you on July 16 and said that the true cost to cancel the Mississauga gas plant will come in at approximately $190 million. To break that down for you, that’s about $47.5 million per Liberal member whose seat was saved by the relocation of the Mississauga gas plant, all on the backs of Ontario taxpayers.

Minister, now that we know the true cost of the four Liberal seats in Mississauga, will you do the honourable thing and reveal the true cost of the Oakville seat?

Hon. Christopher Bentley: As we’d said for some months as we implemented the campaign commitment that we made—the same commitment the PCs made—we said that it was in the public interest to conduct the negotiations and discussions—very delicate—in private, and that’s what we did. As soon as we reached a conclusion, where the costs were finalized, we went out there with the numbers for everybody to see—lots of commentary about the numbers.

Now, I haven’t heard from the PCs what their calculations on the costs were when they made the same commitment on exactly the same day, but it would probably be interesting to compare and contrast. As we continue the discussions about Oakville, as soon as they reach a conclusion, I’ve said all along that we will go out with the numbers. But that issue is before the Speaker. We should let the Speaker make a ruling so that we can properly assess the public interest.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Supplementary?

Ms. Lisa M. Thompson: Minister, the taxpayers aren’t fooled by your seat-saver programs any longer. Another example of mismanagement is Trillium Power Wind. That company is suing your government for $2.25 billion over your announcement to cancel the offshore wind turbine development slated to be in the ridings of two of your ministers.

Minister, I must say, the Liberals are fetching quite a price these days in terms of saving their seats. But in court, Trillium says the decision was made in bad faith, as your government sought to save the seats of cabinet ministers in both Scarborough and Windsor. They were being threatened by the wind projects in their backyards during the run-up to last fall’s election.

Minister, this makes zero economic sense. At what point did it become Liberal policy to forgo fact-based science—underscore that “fact”—in favour of political science?

Hon. Christopher Bentley: So just to be clear, the Tories are now in favour of wind power. Is that the situation?

The Tories supported cancelling the plant in Mississauga. They said so exactly the same day. They haven’t come clean with their estimate of the cost. We look forward to it.

In fact, the Tories also supported—the member from Halton, I understand, in Hansard said, “The people of Oakville have told you they don’t want the proposed gas-fired power plant … and I agree with them.” Again, September 14, 2010: “Minister, will you move the Oakville power plant? I’m asking the minister to consider moving this plant.”

It seems to me that the Tories support moving and cancelling when it’s convenient, but when action is taken, they forget. There is a cost to all of those things. We’re looking forward to the Tory estimates that they put to paper when they asked the questions and when they made the same campaign commitments.

HYDRO CORRIDOR

Mr. Peter Tabuns: Minister of Energy: Waterloo residents have taken up the fight against Hydro One’s plans to spray herbicides on hydro corridors near their homes and schools. They’re concerned about the impact on their children’s health.

Why won’t the minister take action to stop this spraying and protect the health of families in Waterloo?

Hon. Christopher Bentley: I had a chance to address this yesterday. I had already taken action, actually. About a week and a half ago I walked along the hydro corridor with a number of residents and other interested persons to take an actual look at what was there, what was proposed.

I understand that there have already been some discussions and meetings and there are going to be further ones between the residents, the community and Hydro One about it, remembering, as I think the member knows, Hydro One has 150,000 kilometres of wire. They have corridors all over the province, and their responsibility is to make sure that we have reliable power and that when a line is cut or needs repair, they can access it quickly to get the power back up for the people all over the province. So we’re already on that, Hydro One is already on that, having discussions—very helpful.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Supplementary?

Mr. Peter Tabuns: I’m glad the minister is getting a chance to take a walk.

In 2008, the McGuinty government passed the cosmetic pesticide act despite objections from the Canadian Cancer Society and others that the bill included a mile-wide loophole allowing hydro companies to spray dangerous pesticides on hydro corridors. The NDP proposed amendments to close this loophole, but the Liberals and the Conservatives defeated it.

Why won’t the government, Minister, stand up for families in Waterloo and around the province and put an end to spraying cancer-causing chemicals in hydro corridors?

Hon. Christopher Bentley: I think I spoke to this. Hydro One has already taken action down there. They’re meeting with the residents to understand the issues. Our position: Our party has always stood for environmentally conscious initiatives. Our record shows that.

Unfortunately, the NDP consistently votes against environmental initiatives and protections. They want it both ways. It’s sort of like on the teacher legislation, where they come in here and they complain about contracts, but they won’t go out there at noon and tell the teachers that they’re not going to agree to a salary increase, they’re not going to provide a grid increase. In fact, they want to be everything in here and everything out there. It’s the party that wants to be it all, all the time. Well, if you don’t stand for something, you stand for nothing, so make a decision.

HEALTH CARE

Mr. Yasir Naqvi: My question is for the Minister of Health––

Interjections.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): I would like to hear the member’s question so I know where to direct it.

Member for Ottawa Centre.

Mr. Yasir Naqvi: Thank you very much, Speaker.

My question is for the Minister of Health and Long-Term Care. I think it is very important that people can receive access to health care whenever they need it, as soon as possible. That is why we must continue to focus on reducing wait times in our hospital emergency departments. When someone feels that they need to seek medical attention in an emergency department, they should be able to. After years of hospitals being closed under the previous government, many in my riding in my city of Ottawa, and nurses being fired, we saw reports of record-high wait times. It is something that Ontarians have been concerned about.

Through you, Speaker, to the minister: How long does it take to receive care in an Ottawa emergency department?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: Thank you to the fantastic member for this very important question.

Speaker, I couldn’t agree more. Patients deserve to receive care when they need it, and that’s why reducing emergency department wait times has been a priority for our hospitals and our government. We began measuring and publicly reporting wait times in 2008, because we know that if you track it, you can improve it.

The good news is that thanks to the hard work of people at the hospital and outside of hospitals, wait times at Ottawa emergency departments are down, and I’m talking about patients with complex conditions. Since 2008, they have seen a reduction in wait times at CHEO of 20%; 95% of patients are being seen within the targets. At Hôpital Montfort the length of stay is down 63%, with 77% of patients being seen within target. At the Ottawa Hospital, the length of stay for those complex spaces in the emergency department is down 30%, with 76% of patients being seen within targets.

There’s more to do, but we’ve made tremendous progress.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Supplementary?

Mr. Yasir Naqvi: I really do want to underscore how important it is to keep records on wait times, because if we don’t have the information, if we are not transparent, we cannot do anything about it. We need to continuously make improvements.

Earlier in the summer, Speaker, I had the opportunity to visit the emergency department at the Ottawa Hospital Civic Campus, which is in my riding of Ottawa Centre, with nurses, and I was extremely impressed by their hard work and dedication in making sure that we continue to bring wait times down. I want to salute all the nurses, the doctors and the health care providers for their excellent work.

Emergency departments are not the only option available to receive important health care services. I continue to advocate on behalf of my community to bring more services into the community, where residents can access them closer to home.

Through you, Speaker, to the minister: What other options are available to those in Ottawa to receive health care?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: Again a very important question. Speaker, over a quarter of a million people every year go to our emergency departments who could have received the care they need somewhere else in an alternative setting. These trips to the ER are avoidable, and the patients would have received excellent care at lower cost outside the hospital.

That’s why we’ve launched an online tool called Your Health Care Options. This website helps Ontarians find the health care options that they need right in their community, as close to home as possible.

Ottawa residents could visit the Your Health Care Options website. They’ll find that they could benefit from an urgent care centre, over 20 walk-in clinics, 13 family health teams and seven community health centres.

Speaker, this is all part of our action plan for health care, which is about getting people in Ontario the right care at the right time at the right place.

POWER PLANTS

Mr. Monte McNaughton: My question today is for the Minister of Energy. Minister, last election, the Premier authorized your campaign team to cancel the Mississauga gas plant in a desperate attempt to save Liberal seats. This careless decision cost Ontarians $190 million, and it’s estimated to cost another $1 billion for the cancellation of the Oakville power plant. These reckless and politically motivated actions robbed Ontarians of money that could have financed essential front-line services such as quality education, health care and deficit reduction. That money could have paid for 600 new doctors or 3,100 nurses. Instead, you used taxpayer dollars to fund your election campaign.

Minister, at a time when Ontario is facing a $411-billion debt, why do you think it’s acceptable to use millions of hard-earned taxpayer dollars to ensure that you save a few Liberal seats?

Hon. Christopher Bentley: I’ve answered that. They actually agreed with the decision. Now they seem to be trying to get away from it.

I want to read you part of a letter from the mayor of Kitchener about the southwest economic development fund. He says in part, “Given these realities, we are writing today to ask you to support Bill 11”—

Interjections.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Minister.

Interjection.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): The member for Prince Edward–Hastings, you’re very close to me, and when you shout that loud, I cannot hear the answer.

Minister.

Hon. Christopher Bentley: The mayor of Kitchener says, “Given these realities, we are writing to ask you to support Bill 11, Attracting Investment and Creating Jobs Act, 2011. Modeled on the successful eastern Ontario development fund, which has demonstrated a significant return on the government’s investment, we believe that a new southwestern Ontario development fund will advance the city of Kitchener, the region of Waterloo and the province of Ontario’s economic development agenda.”

The question is, why won’t you stand up for the people without work in southwestern Ontario? Give them a hand; support the economic development fund.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Supplementary?

Mr. Monte McNaughton: The problem is, it’s because of this government that we have 600,000 people unemployed in the province of Ontario.

The other thing is, this government is always worried about the next election, but they don’t give a damn about the next generation.

Minister, your government has made the people of Ontario wait nearly two years for the release of information regarding the cost of the Oakville plant cancellation. It’s unacceptable that you are withholding this information from this Legislature and from the people of Ontario. It’s clear that the Premier and his Liberal caucus have something to hide. Are you scared to reveal the cost for the cancellation of the Oakville power plant to the people of Ontario, and if not, will you commit to releasing this report today?

Hon. Christopher Bentley: Here are some more quotes on the economic development fund: “Sometimes, you’ve got to decide not what should be the party line but what would be good for the towns and cities” in your riding. That’s the mayor of London.

“Why can we not treat this almost like a wartime situation—this is the right thing to do and let’s do it?.... They’re not getting that the public wants leadership [and] that’s not part of partisanship.” Sarnia Mayor Mike Bradley.

“It is the wrong time to be playing politics, the wrong time to hold this up. The last thing we need here is another stall tactic.” Goderich Deputy Mayor John Grace.

Isn’t it time for the PCs to stand up for the people of Ontario—

Interjections.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): It doesn’t seem as though I’m getting through to everyone that we’re a little too loud. I need to hear the answer.

Minister.

Hon. Christopher Bentley: Thank you, Speaker. I know that in a few minutes, we’re going to get an opportunity. Maybe the five-minute or 10-minute bell will give them a chance to reflect. Vote in favour of the people looking for work in southwestern Ontario and eastern Ontario. Support Bill 11. I think they absolutely have to support Bill 11. It’s the right thing to do. It’s the right time to do it. We absolutely need this bill.

EMERGENCY SERVICES

Ms. Teresa J. Armstrong: My question is to the Minister of Health and Long-Term Care. The Middlesex-London EMS is coping with record amounts of calls, but as paramedics struggle to respond, this minister is cutting more than $240,000 from the same service.

How can the minister justify a compensation package to former London hospital CEO Clifford Nordal of more than $1 million while cutting this life-or-death service?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: Thank you to the member opposite for raising this issue. It is an issue that I have been working on with the EMS, and I am confident we’re going to be able to arrive at a mutually acceptable agreement.

There were some budget issues. I think the member opposite knows that I have been personally engaged in this issue, and I’m looking forward to resolution as quickly as possible.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): The time for oral questions has expired.

NOTICES OF DISSATISFACTION

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Pursuant to standing order 38(a), the member for Nipissing has given notice of his dissatisfaction with the answer to his question given by the Minister of Energy concerning the cost of the Oakville power plant. This matter will be debated today at 6 p.m.

Pursuant to standing order 38(a), the member for Leeds–Grenville has given notice of his dissatisfaction with the answer to his question given by the Minister of Energy concerning the cancellation of the Mississauga and Oakville power plants. This matter will be debated today at 6 p.m.

DEFERRED VOTES

ATTRACTING INVESTMENT

AND CREATING JOBS ACT, 2012 /

LOI DE 2012 VISANT

À ATTIRER LES INVESTISSEMENTS

ET À CRÉER DES EMPLOIS

Deferred vote on the motion for third reading of the following bill:

Bill 11,

An Act respecting the continuation and establishment of development funds in order to promote regional economic development in eastern and southwestern Ontario / Projet de loi 11, Loi concernant la prorogation et la création de fonds de développement pour promouvoir le développement économique régional dans l’Est et le Sud-Ouest de l’Ontario.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Call in the members. This will be a five-minute bell.

The division bells rang from 1135 to 1140.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Mr. Duguid has moved third reading of Bill 11. All those in favour, please rise one at a time and be recognized by the Clerk.

Ayes

Albanese, Laura

Armstrong, Teresa J.

Bartolucci, Rick

Bentley, Christopher

Berardinetti, Lorenzo

Best, Margarett

Bisson, Gilles

Bradley, James J.

Broten, Laurel C.

Cansfield, Donna H.

Chan, Michael

Chiarelli, Bob

Colle, Mike

Coteau, Michael

Crack, Grant

Craitor, Kim

Delaney, Bob

Dhillon, Vic

Dickson, Joe

DiNovo, Cheri

Duguid, Brad

Duncan, Dwight

Gerretsen, John

Gravelle, Michael

Hoskins, Eric

Jaczek, Helena

Jeffrey, Linda

Kwinter, Monte

Leal, Jeff

MacCharles, Tracy

Mangat, Amrit

Mantha, Michael

Marchese, Rosario

Matthews, Deborah

McGuinty, Dalton

McMeekin, Ted

McNeely, Phil

Meilleur, Madeleine

Miller, Paul

Milloy, John

Moridi, Reza

Murray, Glen R.

Naqvi, Yasir

Orazietti, David

Piruzza, Teresa

Prue, Michael

Sandals, Liz

Sergio, Mario

Singh, Jagmeet

Sousa, Charles

Tabuns, Peter

Takhar, Harinder S.

Wong, Soo

Wynne, Kathleen O.

Zimmer, David

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): All those opposed, please stand and be recognized by the Clerk.

Nays

Arnott, Ted

Bailey, Robert

Barrett, Toby

Chudleigh, Ted

Clark, Steve

Dunlop, Garfield

Elliott, Christine

Fedeli, Victor

Hardeman, Ernie

Harris, Michael

Hudak, Tim

Jackson, Rod

Jones, Sylvia

Klees, Frank

Leone, Rob

MacLeod, Lisa

McDonell, Jim

McKenna, Jane

McNaughton, Monte

Miller, Norm

Milligan, Rob E.

Munro, Julia

Nicholls, Rick

O’Toole, John

Ouellette, Jerry J.

Pettapiece, Randy

Shurman, Peter

Smith, Todd

Thompson, Lisa M.

Wilson, Jim

Yakabuski, John

Yurek, Jeff

The Deputy Clerk (Mr. Todd Decker): The ayes are 55; the nays are 32.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): I declare the bill carried.

Be it resolved that the bill do now pass and be entitled as in the motion.

Third reading agreed to.

NOTICE OF DISSATISFACTION

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Pursuant to standing order 38(a), the member from Huron−Bruce has given notice of her dissatisfaction with the answer to her question given by the Minister of Energy concerning the cost of the cancellation of the Oakville gas plant. This matter will be debated today at 6 p.m.

This House stands recessed until 3 p.m.

The House recessed from 1144 to 1500.

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: Many of us here have come back to the Legislature in the middle of this summer, and I know for many of my colleagues it’s been a bit difficult arranging child care and vacations. I’ve had the pleasure of having my little girl here this week, because next week she will be back in the classroom. But here she is today: Victoria Varner. Many of you know her. I’d like to introduce my little girl. She’s seven years old, and I’d like to thank her for coming to work with mama.

Mr. Jagmeet Singh: I’d ask all members of the Legislature to join me in welco