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April 2, 2015

41st Parliament, 1st Session

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Hansard Transcripts

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

Hansard Transcripts 2015-Apr-02 (PDF)

L065 - Thu 2 Apr 2015 / Jeu 2 avr 2015

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ONTARIO

ASSEMBLÉE LÉGISLATIVE DE L’ONTARIO

Thursday 2 April 2015 Jeudi 2 avril 2015

ORDERS OF THE DAY

Making Healthier Choices Act, 2015 / Loi de 2015 pour des choix plus sains

Ontario Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Amendment Act, 2015 / Loi de 2015 modifiant la

Loi sur la Société de protection des animaux de l’Ontario

Introduction of Visitors

Wearing of ribbons

Member’s birthday

Oral Questions

Privatization of public assets

Privatization of public assets

Privatization of public assets

Government’s agenda

Power plant

By-election in Sudbury

Agri-food industry

Social Assistance Management System

Social Assistance Management System

Pan Am Games

Provincial deficit

Executive compensation

Autism treatment / Traitement de l’autisme

Physiotherapy services

Horse racing industry

Visitors

Deferred Votes

Making Healthier Choices Act, 2015 / Loi de 2015 pour des choix plus sains

Introduction of Visitors

Members’ Statements

Ted Paisley

World Autism Awareness Day

Sikh Heritage Month

Organ and tissue donation

Automotive industry

Lung health

Dream Big

World Autism Awareness Day

Sikh Heritage Month

Legislative pages

Introduction of Bills

Strengthening and Improving Government Act, 2015 / Loi de 2015 sur le renforcement et l’amélioration de la gestion publique

Centre for International Governance Innovation Act (Tax Relief), 2015

Broader Public Sector Executive Compensation Amendment Act (Senior Administrators of Universities and Colleges), 2015 / Loi de 2015 modifiant la

Loi sur la rémunération des cadres du secteur parapublic (cadres supérieurs des universités et collèges)

Statements by the Ministry and Responses

World Autism Awareness Day / Journée mondiale de la sensibilisation à l’autisme

Petitions

Hydro rates

Automotive industry

Protection de l’environnement

Personal-injury lawyers

Automotive industry

Student safety

Environmental protection

Employment standards

French-language education

Trespassing

Hospital services

Environmental

Visitors

Private Members’ Public Business

Affirming Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity Act, 2015 / Loi de 2015 sur l’affirmation de l’orientation sexuelle et de l’identité sexuelle

Magna Carta Day Act, 2015 / Loi de 2015 sur le Jour de la Grande Charte

Post-stroke recovery services

Affirming Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity Act, 2015 / Loi de 2015 sur l’affirmation de l’orientation sexuelle et de l’identité sexuelle

Magna Carta Day Act, 2015 / Loi de 2015 sur le Jour de la Grande Charte

Post-stroke recovery services

Affirming Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity Act, 2015 / Loi de 2015 sur l’affirmation de l’orientation sexuelle et de l’identité sexuelle

The House met at 0900.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Good morning. Please join me in prayer.

Prayers.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

Making Healthier Choices Act, 2015 / Loi de 2015 pour des choix plus sains

Resuming the debate adjourned on April 1, 2015, on the motion for second reading of the following bill:

Bill 45,

An Act to enhance public health by enacting the Healthy Menu Choices Act, 2015 and the Electronic Cigarettes Act, 2015 and by amending the Smoke-Free Ontario Act / Projet de loi 45, Loi visant à améliorer la santé publique par l’édiction de la Loi de 2015 pour des choix santé dans les menus et de la Loi de 2015 sur les cigarettes électroniques et la modification de la Loi favorisant un Ontario sans fumée.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): When this item of business was last debated, the member from Perth–Wellington had completed his speech. Therefore, we will continue further debate. The member from Huron–Bruce.

Mr. John Yakabuski: Are you guys putting anybody up?

Ms. Lisa M. Thompson: Thank you very much, Speaker.

Interjection.

Ms. Lisa M. Thompson: Okay, very good. And we’re off.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): You don’t have to listen to him. Listen to me.

Ms. Lisa M. Thompson: Very good. You don’t carry the whip.

Good morning, Speaker. It’s a pleasure to join the debate with regard to Bill 45, the Making Healthier Choices Act. This is a piece of legislation that I welcome all efforts to improve, in terms of our efforts collectively here in the Legislature. Bill 45 addresses a number of things. It talks about banning the marketing of tobacco products to children, obesity and labelling menus with calorie counts. There are a number of things that we need to point out, in order to address them properly.

First is health care versus the deficit. This week, the Minister of Finance announced that the deficit has risen to $10.9 billion. That’s up half a billion dollars from last year. When I hear an astronomical number such as this, I think of how it will affect our front-line services such as education and health care, which are two basic services that we need and two important components of this particular bill. While we have a government that cannot get its fiscal house in order, we see cuts where our services should be a priority: education and health care. It’s happening across this province.

The Auditor General warned of this very thing. In her most recent report, she explained that Ontario’s debt and deficit will result in a “crowding out” of spending on essential services. As I’ve said, we hear of nurses being cut across the province, we see a decline in services such as cutting off coverage for diabetes testing strips, cutting off physiotherapy for seniors, and cataract surgeries. I would suggest that this government has its priorities upside down, and they need to get their spending habits under control so that we can indeed focus on priority services.

While I support this bill, Speaker, I have to tell you that I have not seen any evidence that builds my confidence in this government that it is prepared to balance this budget to ensure that essential services are available to protect our health care system.

A second point I need to make is on childhood obesity. In Ontario today, we have nearly one third of children and youth who are overweight or obese. This is a staggering number. Obesity can result in chronic diseases like diabetes, cancer and heart disease. There are reasons a child can experience obesity, from a socio-economic perspective or from family, individual and community factors, but it all boils down to the imbalance between food intake and physical activity.

By labelling menus with calorie count to make it a little bit easier for families to prepare healthier choices for their children—I see that as a step in the right direction but it cannot stop there. We need a strategy in place to make sure that children and youth can increase their physical activity. Keeping active for at least one hour a day lowers the risk of heart disease, diabetes, stroke and high blood pressure. We need more physical education within our school curriculums to ensure a healthier generation. We need a comprehensive plan moving forward to address this public health issue that we currently have on our hands.

I do have to recognize that this past fall I was pleased to learn that the county of Huron had been selected for the Healthy Kids Community Challenge. The Healthy Kids Community Challenge delivers programs and activities focused on promoting healthy eating, physical activity and healthy lifestyle choices. The county of Huron will be receiving funding, training and marketing resources over the next four years from the province to support these local initiatives. This is an excellent opportunity to educate our youth on the importance of healthy living.

When doing research for this particular bill, I found that, according to the Health and Fitness Journal of Canada, in 2009, the cost associated with obesity in Ontario was $4.5 billion. That’s $1.65 billion in direct health care costs and $2.87 billion in indirect costs. We need to continue to invest in our children’s health today. We need to allow for the sustainability of our health care system for tomorrow as well. Simply applying a label to food will certainly help, but it’s not a solution.

Once again, we see industry in Ontario being proactive. We found that as many as 60% of restaurants voluntarily brought in calorie stickers—and again, how much red tape do we need to stifle industry initiatives? I worry about that and I raise a flag in that regard.

I see this industry constantly innovating and being proactive. With the introduction of Bill 75, the Microbead Elimination and Monitoring Act, I have to share with you that when the legislation was brought in, industry was already setting their own targets, many for 2017, to entirely eliminate microbeads from their products. Again, that’s another example of industry leading by example.

I’d also like to talk to you about what the agri-food industry is doing in terms of being proactive and working toward bringing awareness and education to the classroom outside of government legislation. There’s an organization called the Ontario Agri-Food Education Inc. Commodity organizations in this province support OAFE so that they can develop curriculum for teachers to use in the classroom to educate people about how food production is initiated in this province and, more importantly, healthy eating. That’s why we need to have the Legislature in this province recognize what industry is already doing outside of legislation. We can’t stifle that innovation.

When I think about healthy eating and healthy lifestyles, I really think it’s going to be important. When I come back to my private member’s initiative later this fall, I’m going to be introducing a motion to gently nudge this government to make mandatory in grade 9 and 10 guidance and career education curriculum a component talking about the agri-food industry, the food that’s produced in Ontario. Ultimately, that leads to awareness of healthy living and healthy eating.

I hope, when you look at all the different pieces of legislation coming together to support a healthy lifestyle, that this government also recognizes the importance that my private member’s initiative will bring and why it’s important to support it as well.

With that, I would like to carry on about the banning of marketing of tobacco products to children. According to StatsCan, in Canada today we have nearly 5.8 million smokers. Although this is fewer than a decade ago, it is still a high number. Of that, one in 10 15- to 17-year-olds, which equals about 121,000 kids, were smokers in 2011. I think this is unacceptable. But one promising fact within this is that the smoking rate fell rapidly among teenagers in the last decade.

Smoking is the leading cause of premature death in Canada, and recent studies have estimated that 21% of all deaths over the past decade are indeed due to smoking. Anything we can do to reduce these numbers is a step in the right direction.

I’ve been a long-standing advocate for lung health, Speaker, and I’m very pleased to be a member of the lung health caucus here at Queen’s Park. Just this past summer, I was pleased to sign the lung health action plan, which called upon government to establish an action plan.

I will tip my hat to the member from Cambridge for bringing forth Bill 41, the Lung Health Act, which I was pleased to support and speak to. I appreciated how Bill 41 will ensure that individuals with lung disease and informal caregivers are included in discussions and decisions surrounding their health. This is definitely a step in the right direction.

Another step that I was very pleased to see happen is that this government finally was getting out of the way and allowing people access to drugs that are needed. I’d like to give my regards to Hugh Detzler. Hugh Detzler was a tremendous advocate for a drug called Esbriet, which improves lung health for folks experiencing idiopathic pulmonary fibrosis. I want to say thank you to Hugh. He had to pay out of his own pocket for this drug. Unfortunately, by the time it became available in Ontario, it was too late for Hugh, and Hugh underwent a lung transplant.

He is currently in Toronto, and I wish him the very best over this Easter weekend. Easter represents new beginnings, and I hope there are some parallels there with regard to his new lung and the next

chapter in his life, and I hope it’s healthy and happy for him and his family.

Speaker, we need to continue on this path. From all parties’ perspectives, we need to work together to ensure that we can achieve a healthier population. I think that this legislation is important. I support it. It’s a step in the right direction, but there’s so much more we can do.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Thank you for those comments.

Questions and comments?

Mr. Taras Natyshak: I appreciate the comments from the member from Huron–Bruce. She raised some valid points.

I think, in general, members of the House support the thrust of the bill. We all want to ensure that we have a healthier society. One of our main roles here, as legislators, is to review what the functions of not only us, as legislators—but how it cross-sects with the demands of our constituents.

Interjection: Tell them about your daughter at the dentist.

Mr. Taras Natyshak: Okay, I’ll tell you the story about my daughter at the dentist. My daughter went to the dentist and had a great day, a great checkup—no cavities. She did really well.

Interjection.

Mr. Taras Natyshak: She does have a million-dollar smile.

When she was done, the dentist went to give her a coupon for maybe a Happy Meal at McDonald’s. She looked up at him from the dentist’s chair and said, “What are you doing? Trying to kill me? I don’t want to eat that.” She is conscious about her health and the nutritional value of the food that we have around us. Maybe the dentist was taken aback. He should be handing out apples and fresh fruit—

Interjection.

Mr. Taras Natyshak: —or toothpaste or something. But it goes to show you how consciousness is shifting, certainly in the next generation. We want good, healthy, wholesome food, we want to know where it comes from, and we want to protect the sources.

We met with members of the Ontario Federation of Agriculture. I want to give them a shout-out for all they do in protecting our food source, food security and, ultimately, food sovereignty. We need to know where it comes from and understand and value the process of our food production.

With that, I thank the members for their attention.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Questions and comments?

Mrs. Amrit Mangat: I’m pleased to speak on Bill 45, the Making Healthier Choices Act. I appreciate the comments from the members from Essex and Huron–Bruce.

Mr. Speaker, as we know, healthy kids grow up to be healthy adults, and a—

Interjections.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Stop the clock. Can we keep the noise down? There are about 10 conversations going on. I’m having trouble hearing the person speaking. Please.

Continue.

Mrs. Amrit Mangat: As I was saying, Mr. Speaker, a healthy start is better for our kids, and it is better for our health care system. That is why our government has reintroduced this legislation, which will make it easier for our families to make informed and healthy food choices.

This bill has been debated over 11 hours, and all parties support this bill. I think it’s time to refer it to committee so that it can be debated in committee and so we can hear from stakeholders, and it can come back with necessary amendments and pass third reading so that families and children can get the benefit of it.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Questions and comments?

Mr. Steve Clark: It’s a pleasure to have a few moments to speak. With all due respect to the previous speaker, the member for Brampton-Mississauga South—sorry, I flipped them the wrong way; I got the municipal name mixed up. I just want you to know, Speaker, that we still have 17 members in our caucus who haven’t spoken to this bill. In fact, five of them are here with me in the House this morning: Mr. Arnott, Mr. Fedeli, Mr. Harris, Ms. MacLeod and Mrs. Martow. They’re all here; they’re all very enthusiastic to speak to this bill.

This is a very important bill, it covers many different topics, and in the very few minutes we have left this morning—we only have 58 minutes left before the House has a recess before question period—I would hope, and I would ask, that we be allowed to speak to this very important bill.

I spoke to this bill on Monday and got out a lot of concerns that some of my constituents had about the bill. Obviously there is a lot of support, as well, for the bill in the riding. I’ve had a number of individuals speak to me about Bill 45 and about ensuring that it gets to committee.

Again, I’m a little skeptical. This bill will probably get, for the most part, all-party support here this morning; there might be some who don’t agree. However, what we saw this week with the government on another bill—the transportation bill, Bill 31—is that the opposition put many, many reasonable amendments to that bill, and the government members voted every single amendment down.

So I guess I’m looking for some direction from the government when they decide to speak on this bill: Are they going to hear the other side, are they going to listen to the opposition, and are we going to be able to take some of the comments we’ve heard from our constituents, put them through as amendments and make the bill better? That’s my question to the government.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Questions and comments?

Mr. Percy Hatfield: It’s a pleasure to be able to stand in my place this morning on behalf of my residents in the riding of Windsor–Tecumseh and speak to Bill 45.

We, on this side of the House, like to think that the “G” in G45 actually stands for “Gélinas.” After bringing forth 11 private member’s bills over six years, dealing with healthy eating choices, dealing with restrictions on tobacco, certainly the member from Nickel Belt, France Gélinas, has brought a certain fierceness to this debate, a certain—she won’t give up on it.

Interjections.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Order.

Mr. Percy Hatfield: It’s time that it’s at the House; it’s time that we’re at this level, making decisions on making healthy choices and cutting back on flavoured tobacco. We all have paid it lip service over the years, but finally it looks like we’re all headed in the same direction and are almost prepared to get on with it. That’s what I’m hoping we will do.

There are still a few weaknesses in the bill, Speaker, as you’ve heard before. I don’t know why, for example, sodium content on menu labelling isn’t part of this bill. We can all count calories, and goodness knows I should be counting more than I have; I respect that. But sodium content is just as bad. If we’re going to get serious—if we really want to do the right thing by all the people in Ontario—we should improve the bill to make sure that the sodium content of a meal is also included.

More often than not, some of the fast-food choices I make have more than the daily recommended count of sodium or salt in that meal. I try to think of it more now than I did in the past, but I know if it was right in front of me perhaps I would be making that better choice.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): I now return to the member for Huron–Bruce. You have two minutes for your reply.

Ms. Lisa M. Thompson: I really appreciate everyone’s comments, particularly the member from Leeds–Grenville, in the sense that it’s important that we have time to debate this bill. Bill 45 is an important piece of legislation that we all deserve the right to speak to.

As I mentioned earlier, I had the opportunity to speak about the healthy lifestyles initiative that the county of Huron will be participating in. It’s an opportunity, as we debate bills, to talk about the good things that are happening in our riding as well.

Just to revisit, banning of the marketing of tobacco products to children is an important step, but we also need to shut down illegal smoke shacks.

I appreciate all the comments from the members, particularly from Essex. I love the fact that his daughter is challenging people to ensure that she’s receiving healthy lifestyle tips and that she is raising awareness for other professionals as well. I like that. It’s a two-way street in terms of what we need to be doing.

But I would still like to take a moment to say we need to do more. Industry are innovators. They’re taking the lead and doing so many things on a voluntary basis. I was just speaking to the member from Cambridge and a representative of the Ontario Lung Association. I was sharing how in my area, in terms of lung health, farmers are coming together with health researchers to figure out how to move forward to ensure healthy lifestyles and protect their lung health. That’s another example of how industry is indeed moving forward without interference from government. We can’t stifle that.

No matter what we do, we always have to ensure that the red-tape burden is at minimum so that our industry can do the best and be the best they can be in this province.

Again, just to conclude, you know what? We need to move forward with physical activity in schools and healthy lifestyles.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): I’m going to warn members again: There are many, many conversations going on, and if I can’t keep it quiet, I’ll single you out.

Further debate?

Mr. Ted Arnott: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, I just heard recently—I want to inform the government House leader that it is my hope and my intention to speak to Bill 45—

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): I’m sorry to inform the member that that’s not a point of order. Further debate?

Mr. Michael Harris: It’s a pleasure to rise today in the House and speak to Bill 45. I, of course, wanted to be able to speak to this bill. My colleague was cut off briefly there, but I know the member for Wellington–Halton Hills as well would like to speak to Bill 45 on behalf of his constituents. I know he couldn’t get that out, and I wanted to make that point. As well, my colleague for Thornhill—we were fighting over who was going to speak this morning on this. I know she too would like to speak to this on behalf of her constituents.

This is a bill that concentrates on, obviously, three pieces of legislation: the Healthy Menu Choices Act, 2014, requiring fast-food restaurants to display the calorie counts for their menu items; the Smoke-Free Ontario Act, primarily to prohibit the sale of flavoured tobacco products, including menthol cigarettes; and then there’s the Electronic Cigarettes Act, 2014, which brings in a number of restrictions on e-cigarettes, or electronic cigarettes, which include banning their sale to anyone under 19 and restricting display and promotion of e-cigarettes, much like we do today with the regular, more conventional cigarette products.

You know, when I spoke to one of the predecessors of this bill last year, Bill 131, the Youth Smoking Prevention Act, I spoke about the many influences that encourage youth to smoke: peers, the media, actors and other entertainers. Again, I would like to spend most of my time concentrating on the youth smoking aspects of the bill today.

I spoke last year of the need, as parents and as government, to ensure those influences are countered by our own influence to encourage healthy decisions. Frankly, as I noted then, it’s our responsibility to teach our young people about the effects of smoking. You only need to look at the statistics, which show that children are more likely to smoke if their parents do, to understand the impact and influence of our decisions as adults on choices our young people make. Speaker, I don’t smoke; that’s my choice. As a parent, I sure hope that my kids don’t grow up and smoke either. I will be making them aware of that each and every day.

Fortunately, statistics also show that the percentage of kids and teens who smoke has declined in recent years, which is great news. According to a Youth Smoking Survey in Canada, 2% of youth in grades 5 to 9, and 11% of those in grades 10 to 12, reported that they were current smokers. Speaker, grade 5 is an awfully young age to be smoking—even grades 10 to 12. Of kids in grades 5 to 9, 82% of youth have never tried it, and thank God for that. By grades 10 to 12, 52% of youth reported that they still hadn’t tried it at all. I think those stats are moving in the right direction.

That said, while those numbers are improving, there is still room for further improvement. The trends are heading in the right direction, and today’s bill will help those numbers get smaller. According to the Youth Smoking Survey, more than half of children will still try tobacco.

I have three young boys at home. I feel it’s so important to teach them the dangers of cigarettes, and I hope that they make the healthy decision not to smoke as they grow older. I would encourage all parents to open up that conversation with their children and keep that communication going as they grow up into teenagers and young adults.

Those conversations are essential, but no matter the communication and conversations, the temptations are always there. I regret the fact that one of the main sources of temptation is not even addressed by this bill. I speak of contraband tobacco, a huge contributor to youth smoking which cannot be taken lightly. According to the National Coalition Against Contraband Tobacco, there are more illegal cigarettes in Ontario than anywhere else in the country.

I’ve had the opportunity to meet with folks from the National Coalition Against Contraband Tobacco, and remember they had done a study at one of the local high schools. They collected the cigarette butts found in front of the school, and a good percentage of the tobacco butts they found were in fact contraband. This is an alarming issue that needs to be dealt with.

We talk about increasing the fines on the sale of tobacco products to underagers. It’s important to start to crack down on youth smoking, but it doesn’t go far enough towards stopping the sale of cigarettes out of the back of someone’s truck in the parking lot of a high school or in someone’s university dorm room.

They often say that contraband tobacco is fairly easy to get. You see the vans driving up and down the street, bringing the cigarettes right to the establishment or right to the schools in our own communities. I know that a lot of the stores do their best to ask for IDs and crack down on it at the store, but there’s so much contraband going on, simply out of a van, that we need to deal with that.

I remember my colleague from Haldimand–Norfolk suggesting that the province put an end to illegal tobacco and smoke shacks by increasing enforcement and reducing tobacco taxes. The member for Haldimand–Norfolk has said that when this took place in the early 1990s, 300 smoke shacks vanished on the Six Nations overnight.

Illegal cigarettes pose an incredible threat to the health of our young people. These cigarettes are sold by criminals through a network of drug dealers, which can give greater access for youth to cigarettes, cigarillos, cigars, chewing tobacco and other products.

The price for 200 illegal cigarettes can range from $4 to $8. The low price of illegal cigarettes makes them incredibly attractive to smokers, especially young smokers, who may not be able to afford the legal product.

It is clear that Ontario has an illegal cigarette problem. It has been estimated that one of every three cigarettes in Ontario is illegal. A failure to combat the problem of contraband cigarettes will lead to better-funded organized crime and increased health care costs. This is a serious problem, which is why important organizations such as the Retail Council of Canada, Crime Stoppers, the Ontario Chamber of Commerce, the Canadian Taxpayers Federation and the Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters have called for government’s attention to address the situation.

Instead of addressing contraband cigarettes, this act turns to the issue of e-cigarettes. In fact, this piece of legislation would ban and restrict the sale, promotion and use of e-cigarettes, similar to tobacco. I think we all agree that we need to limit the exposure of our young people to tobacco, but I am also aware that there is a debate regarding how much of a health risk e-cigarettes actually pose.

Some studies have shown that a puff of e-cigarette with the highest nicotine content contains 20% of the nicotine contained in a puff of a conventional cigarette. One fifth of the conventional cigarette is a significant reduction. I have also received countless emails from constituents who found that e-cigarettes are a healthier alternative to tobacco smoking. Some have even used it as an aid to actually quit smoking. The fact is, we simply don’t have all the facts here when it comes to e-cigarettes. We simply do not know enough about this new technology. Without that data, that information, it may be too early to create regulations regarding e-cigarettes.

Speaker, there’s little doubt that ultimately smoking is an issue that affects us all. We all have a friend or a family member who has gotten sick or even passed away. It’s a sad and terrible thing to see, and I wish it upon no one. I believe that it’s important to continue educating our young people of the dangers of smoking.

If you can only imagine, it was not too long ago when folks smoked in bars. In fact, you have to look at airplanes: a smoke-free environment. The thought that at one time, back in the day, folks were smoking on airplanes—we’ve certainly come a long way.

I can recall when I was in school, out occasionally the odd night, coming home with cigarette burns in my clothes just drove me crazy. We don’t have to worry about that anymore. To get here it required a lot of work, work that continues as we look to keep our young people away from harmful second-hand smoke.

As I noted off the top, while Bill 45 aims to properly address youth smoking it also seeks to give more information to Ontarians who are simply looking to make healthier choices.

To be clear: Ontarians are looking for that information to make healthier choices. In fact, approximately 95% of Ontarians supported requiring fast-food restaurants to list their nutritional information on the menus, according to Ipsos.

If Bill 45 is passed, it will require owners and operators of regulated food services premises to display the number of calories in each standard food item sold at their premises. When we’re talking about regulated food service premises, we’re talking about the places that sell meals for immediate consumption. I believe the common term is “fast-food restaurant,” of course. I think at the end of the day we can all understand the importance of making informed decisions when standing in line at a chain with 20 or more Ontario locations, or that are brought under this act by regulators.

I do see that I’m almost running out of time and I’ll conclude at that. I look forward to questions and comments from my colleagues and then wrap it up.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Questions and comments?

Mr. Gilles Bisson: I just want to say, up is down and down is up. These days we have Liberals talking like Conservatives and now we’ve got Conservatives talking about regulations. I tell you: This whole place is getting rather interesting.

I just want to put something on the record and I hope people take it for what it is. I think the bill is a good step forward. I think the point was made: by ensuring that restaurants of certain sizes post what calories you’re going to be eating and what’s good and bad as far as what’s on the menu—it’s a good thing because it allows the person to make a choice.

But really, this is the point that I want to make: You can try to regulate as much as you want but the biggest effect you’re going to have is when you affect people’s behaviour. The best way to affect people’s behaviour is by education.

I look at where we are today compared to what we were 20 years ago when it comes to people’s choices when it comes to health. What has really driven people to go to the gym, be more cautious about what they eat, what their lifestyle is, has been a constant bombardment of stuff that we saw on television, radio, within the papers, everything from—you remember participaction, the federal program that encouraged people to get out and walk and take a bike, to various ads that we see that are more or less encouraging people to live healthier lifestyles.

I guess my point is this: We can try to regulate, but at the end of the day, regulation, unless it’s done in co-operation with some type of advertising in order to affect people’s choices, is really for naught. I think that’s what we’re trying to do with this particular bill: to make sure that we give people the information so that they’re able to make the choices on how to live healthy.

Now, I can’t understand what people see in some of these fast-food restaurants. I want to tell you, I’ve been in a few before—worst thing you ever can do for your health. I just encourage people to try to stay away from those places—bad food.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Questions and comments?

Hon. Glen R. Murray: I want to commend the member from Kitchener–Conestoga on his remarks. I certainly agree with him, and I think we’re on the same page on this—and the member for Timmins–James Bay, as well.

This is an important issue. Any of us who have had to quit smoking know how hard it is. I’m an ex-smoker. I was one of these guilt-ridden anglophones growing up in Montreal, and all my friends were French and cool, and I was guilt-ridden for hundreds of years of oppression. The way we compensated was we drank a lot of coffee and smoked Gauloises. It was one of ways an Anglo kid from the suburbs could be cool with their French university peers in downtown Montreal in the heyday of Quebec nationalism.

But anyway, I did quit. One of my buddies, on New Year’s Eve, when I was 26 years old—we drank an enormous amount of Scotch and smoked an entire carton of Russian cigarettes. It was very successful aversion therapy. I was so sick, for three months after, that I have never smoked since. But I’m glad that in 2014, we have much more progressive and less severe ways in which to quit smoking.

I would like to say one thing. I know my friend from Kitchener–Conestoga is not a big fan of red tape, and is one of those people in the House who, quite rightly, argues government should move more quickly and be less bureaucratic. I’m hoping he and his colleagues, since we seem to have—we’ve had over eight hours of debate now. We have, I think, unanimous agreement on this. Everyone wisely shares in the credit for this. So I’m hoping that maybe we can get this to committee.

I think that by using my particular technique of quitting smoking, several people could have quit by now, using the Murray aversion therapy Russian-cigarette process.

Mr. Speaker, since we are all concerned about young folks, let’s try to get this bill passed, so we can get better supports for people of all ages who would like to quit.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Questions and comments?

Mrs. Gila Martow: I’m happy to get up just to speak for a couple of minutes and make some comments, because it doesn’t look like I’m going to get a chance to speak to this bill directly.

We all know that we can all do better. We can all live healthier. We’re all trying to set a good example for the next generation. I think that this generation is learning a lot in school about, certainly, saying no to drugs. We don’t see drinking and driving being the issue that it once was.

But we also need to recognize that just making rules and just making regulations often isn’t enough. We have to look at the illegal tobacco industry, which is providing very cheap cigarettes, often without filters, to our youth. I feel that this government isn’t doing enough to address that problem. And I’m surprised, because we all know that we’re running a bigger and bigger deficit every year, and there is certainly revenue to be made if the cigarettes were being sold legally. So if you’re going to allow cigarettes on our streets to our youth, you’d think that you would want to recoup as much tax as possible.

In terms of listing calories for restaurants—especially, obviously, large-chain fast-food restaurants—well, there’s more to it than just calories. We also have to consider the fat content and how the food was prepared.

I recall somebody who was a member of my family arguing—you couldn’t even have the discussion—that a potato is a potato, and it doesn’t matter if it’s baked or if it’s fried in a french fry. Obviously, this is somebody who went through the Canadian school system and didn’t get the education, in terms of food preparation and healthy eating, that I believe this generation is getting.

We can do more. I think it really is about setting an example in education.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Questions and comments?

Mrs. Lisa Gretzky: It’s my pleasure to add comments to what the member from Kitchener–Conestoga, the Minister of Transportation and the member from Thornhill have already stated. I had the opportunity to stand and speak at some length about this the other day, and I’ll just summarize what I had said then.

I think it’s important to note what the member from Thornhill said about educating kids around healthy eating and around the downfall of smoking.

It was interesting, because there was a member from the government side the other day who talked about e-cigarettes and the importance they have in helping those who would traditionally smoke tobacco cigarettes and being able to stop that unhealthy habit. He had made reference to some of them having aromas such as bread baking. I had pointed out at the time that when we’re looking at kids, not only do they model what they see from their parents, but when we have things that give off an aroma that’s pleasing, it’s more enticing for kids to want to use it.

So I think there definitely needs to be some sort of control around access to those particular items for kids so that they’re not going to use e-cigarettes to then progress on to tobacco cigarettes down the road. There definitely needs to be an education piece and some sort of control around kids having access to e-cigarettes, because we certainly don’t want them to pick up the smoking habit.

I think it’s also important that kids have access to healthy foods at home, but also at school, and that they have access to community schools that they can walk to and are not being bused 45 minutes to an hour away and not getting the daily exercise that they need. They need to have the education piece around choosing healthy foods. I think labelling menus in the large chain restaurants is a great place to start to help parents educate their kids on making healthy choices as well.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): I thank everyone for their comments. I now return to the member for Kitchener–Conestoga.

Mr. Michael Harris: I would like to thank those who chimed in there, the member for Timmins–James Bay, the Minister of the Environment and Climate Change, my colleague the member from Thornhill and finally the member for Windsor West.

I have to say, off the top, I somewhat enjoyed the comments from the Minister of the Environment and Climate Change. Luckily we only gave him two minutes to talk about those wild days of his when he was in his early twenties or we could have been in for a real story, perhaps. But he obviously had to learn the hard way; I chose just to avoid it. Perhaps I had better things to spend my money on. I hope that my kids do the same—focus their time and energy in other places.

You see young athletes today—I was with a gentleman whose son is 14. He wouldn’t even go out to have wings with his dad one night because he was conscious about the calories he was taking in, let alone filling his body with carcinogens and other things. I think our youth are getting the message, similar to what my colleague mentioned about impaired driving. Through proper promotion, kids are getting the message that this is the wrong thing to do and that it is not a healthy choice.

You know, I’m a big fan, obviously, of a smoke-free environment now in our restaurants, our airplanes and even on our sports fields where kids are playing—to ensure that they’re going to have to go somewhere else. It’s a choice that they make. It’s one that I make, not to smoke, and I don’t want to be subject to second-hand smoke as well.

But I do want to get on the record that I had the fortunate pleasure of meeting with Heart and Stroke just last week. I told them that I would be speaking to the bill. I’m glad I’ve had the opportunity to. I hope that my colleagues do as well because our stakeholders like to know, see, hear and read the comments that we make about important pieces of legislation like this. So I thank you for the opportunity to bring my 10 minutes today. I’ll conclude at that.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Further debate?

Hon. Jeff Leal: It’s always a delight, the opportunity for me to speak on Bill 45 this morning, the Making Healthier Choices Act.

I just want to give a little context. During my time when I was a city councillor in the great city of Peterborough, from 1985 to the fall of 2003, the city of Peterborough was one of the first municipalities in the province of Ontario to develop an anti-smoking bylaw. I remember clearly that we had extensive consultations throughout the community. I think they lasted for almost 12 months. Then we got the bylaw put in place. A good friend of mine had a very distinguished career in the Royal Canadian Air Force, Dr. Garry Humphreys; he was our MOH in Peterborough. I know my colleague, Dr.

Helena Jaczek, the Minister of Community and Social Services was a colleague of Garry Humphreys. Garry was very determined. He was a bright guy, and as a military guy, it was a little like planning a major military operation. He brought that kind of focus to the issue of reducing smoking within the county and city of Peterborough, working with Mayor Sylvia Sutherland. Mayor Sutherland was the longest-serving mayor in the history of Peterborough. I know my good friend from Northumberland–Quinte West is well versed on the great leadership qualities of Ms.

Sutherland, who now serves Ontario so ably as a member of the Ontario Municipal Board. It was during her leadership that we finally got the first anti-smoking bylaw in place, the first in the province of Ontario. The Peterborough bylaw, essentially, became the template for right across the province of Ontario. Dr. Humphreys, working with other MOHs right across the province, of course, collectively decided that smoking and the reduction of smoking would be very, very helpful for the health and well-being of all Ontarians. Of course, we’ve advanced since then. Bill 45 builds on that work.

Mr. Speaker, as I like to tell audiences when I’m in my hometown of Peterborough—by the way, happy Easter to everybody; there are going to be great events over the weekend in Peterborough—we always stand on the shoulders of others, so Bill 45 is essentially that. We’re standing on the shoulders of others. Members on all sides here, the opposition and third party, collectively, have come together in terms of Bill 45, the Making Healthier Choices Act.

Just last Sunday, I was at the Independent grocery store on Lansdowne Street East in Peterborough. It’s perhaps a stone’s throw from my home. Dave Morello, a wonderful guy, is the franchise owner of Morello’s Independent Grocer. I recommend to all members of this House that if they ever get to Peterborough, visit Morello’s grocery store on Lansdowne Street East. It’s right beside the Pioneer gas bar, with the cheapest gas in Peterborough. So if you want to fill up your tank and get your groceries, you can do it all at one time.

What’s interesting when you’re in the grocery stores today is how the consumer public is taking the time to look at labels. That’s why labels are so important. Everywhere I go, whether it’s canned foods, fresh foods, processed foods, everybody is looking at labels to see the content of the food they are consuming. That is a great step forward. I know that’s happening.

Last Friday, I had the distinct pleasure of being at the Foodland Ontario Retailer Awards. There were winners from right across the province of Ontario, but there’s one thing in common: They want to make sure that Ontarians, whether you’re in Halton Hills or Arthur, Ontario, or Forest, Ontario, all those great communities that people now—

Interjections.

Hon. Jeff Leal: Windsor, Ontario; Oshawa—who else wants to get on here?

Mr. Steve Clark: Athens.

Hon. Jeff Leal: Athens—my good friends in Athens. Everybody is taking the opportunity to look at labels because they want to know all about the food they’re consuming, and Bill 45 is certainly an important step forward in making that happen.

Mr. Speaker, in terms of other public awareness, certainly the Local Food Act—and I always like to commend my good friend from Sarnia–Lambton. Mr. Bailey did an incredible job with the food donation tax credit, and he deserves recognition for that. Everywhere I go, I always identify Mr. Bailey’s great work here. What has happened through that?

Commodity groups in Ontario, whether it’s Dairy Farmers of Ontario, Chicken Farmers of Ontario, the egg producers of Ontario or Ontario Pork, are all taking advantage of that tax credit to make sure that healthy, nutritious food is available to our food banks right across the province of Ontario. On all sides of this House, we all have a commitment. We know there are folks in all of our communities across the province of Ontario who face some challenges, and we want to make sure they have the opportunity to have access to fresh, nutritious food, and the food donation tax credit that was championed by Mr.

Bailey is making that happen.

Mr. Speaker, I want to deviate for a moment here. My good friends, my advisers next to the chair, now tell me I have to make the case for closure. So now I will make the case for closure.

Mr. Speaker, as you well know—

Mr. Steve Clark: Point of order.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Stop the clock. Point of order.

Mr. Steve Clark: Speaker, I have many members who are sitting here, ready to speak to this bill.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): I will advise the member that that is not a point of order.

Minister?

Hon. Jeff Leal: The honourable gentleman from Leeds–Grenville is a great guy. Oh, gosh—

Mr. Ted Arnott: Point of order.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Stop the clock. Point of order.

Mr. Ted Arnott: I want to say that I’ve enjoyed the speech by the Minister of Agriculture and Food this morning. He’s had a chance to speak on behalf of his constituents about Bill 45 today. I am asking him for that same opportunity. I’m asking him not to move closure. There are at least two members of our caucus who are present right now in the House, prepared and ready to speak to this bill. The government is routinely—

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): I’ll advise you that that’s not a point of order.

Minister?

Hon. Jeff Leal: I have profound respect for my good friend and colleague the member from Wellington–Halton Hills. I keep trying to work with him to get his highway fixed, Highway 6—

Interjection.

Hon. Jeff Leal: Oh, I’m sorry. Now the case for closure, here.

We have reached 6.5 hours of debate on this bill, and we allowed the debate to continue so that more members would have the opportunity to present on the bill, and all the members support. This bill has received a phenomenal amount of debate—11 hours. That is incredible.

Let me tell you, I’ve always believed that we should have an active democracy in this Legislature. According to my count, 65 very distinguished members have either spoken to this bill or participated in the debate during questions and comments. That’s great.

I believe that there has been considerable debate on this bill. We’ve heard a wide range of viewpoints, opinions and perspectives from the opposition, the third party and government benches. It is time that this bill be put to a vote for second reading and, hopefully, be referred to committee, where the real work in this Legislature takes place.

As members know, in committee, members from all parties will hear from all presenters, who will add their invaluable opinion and perspective. Also in committee, members from all three parties will have an opportunity to move important amendments to strengthen this already very good piece of legislation.

At the same time, this House can move on to debate substantive issues. There are a number of pieces of important legislation, already introduced, which the government would like to debate and move through the legislative process. Mr. Speaker, for those who are listening in Peterborough this morning, let me give you that list:

—Bill 6, Infrastructure for Jobs and Prosperity Act, something I know the opposition wants;

—Bill 9, Ending Coal for Cleaner Air Act: very important;

—Bill 37, Invasive Species Act: We’ve got to get rid of that Asian carp that might be invading the Great Lakes;

—Bill 52, Protection of Public Participation Act, known as the anti-SLAPP legislation;

—Bill 73—

Mr. Gilles Bisson: Point of order.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Point of order, the member for Timmins–James Bay.

Mr. Gilles Bisson: I believe the member is filibustering his own motion.

Interjections.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Order.

To the minister again, and would you speak to the bill.

Hon. Jeff Leal: Thank you so much, Mr. Speaker. I know that everybody on this side wants me to conclude.

We’d like to spend time debating some of the other important pieces of legislation currently before the House, but we can’t until Bill 45 has been dealt with. As a result, I now move that the question be put.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Mr. Leal has moved that the question now be put. Considering the hours that this particular bill has been debated, and the number of members who have spoken to it, I’m going to allow the question.

Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry?

All those in favour, please say “aye.”

All those opposed, please say “nay.”

In my opinion, the ayes have it.

This vote will be taken during deferred votes.

Vote deferred.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Orders of the day.

Hon. Jeff Leal: Mr. Speaker, I know this is a riveting day in the Ontario Legislature before the Easter weekend, so I’ll rise and say we want to proceed to government order G80.

Ontario Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Amendment Act, 2015 / Loi de 2015 modifiant la

Loi sur la Société de protection des animaux de l’Ontario

Resuming the debate adjourned on March 31, 2015, on the motion for second reading of the following bill:

Bill 80,

An Act to amend the Ontario Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act and the Animals for Research Act with respect to the possession and breeding of orcas and administrative requirements for animal care / Projet de loi 80, Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la Société de protection des animaux de l’Ontario et la

Loi sur les animaux destinés à la recherche en ce qui concerne la possession et l’élevage d’épaulards ainsi que les exigences administratives relatives aux soins dispensés aux animaux.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): When this item of business was last debated, we had completed questions and comments on the speech of the member for Parkdale–High Park.

Further debate?

Mr. Chris Ballard: I’ll be sharing my time with the members from Etobicoke–Lakeshore, Ottawa South and Scarborough Southwest.

I’m delighted to be able to speak for a few minutes on this bill. It’s a very important bill. I think it’s one that touches on ethics and morals. I know that others have quoted from people like Gandhi, who, to summarize, said something along the lines of, “We’re measured by how well we treat those who can’t take care of themselves.” I certainly believe that.

Mr. Speaker, animal welfare is a key priority for the residents of Newmarket–Aurora. When we posted this bill to our page, we got incredible input from residents of Newmarket–Aurora who were very supportive of the fact that we were moving ahead to protect orcas and other marine animals. I’d say it’s been the second- or third-best-read

article on our website and probably in the top two or three items that people are in touch with us about all the time.

It goes without saying that marine mammals are complex and magnificent creatures. If you’ve ever seen them in the wild—and I’ve had the opportunity to do that off the coast of BC. They’re phenomenal animals. They have unique needs that require the right standard of care. That’s why this government has introduced the Ontario Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Amendment Act, otherwise known as Bill 80. If passed, Bill 80 would prohibit the breeding and acquisition of orca whales in Ontario, and I think that’s a good thing. The people of Newmarket–Aurora are telling me that they think that’s a great thing.

The bill would create a framework to establish animal welfare committees, as recommended in Dr. Rosen’s report. These committees would ensure the planning, protection and oversight for the animals’ care: things like animal care plans, access to veterinarians with expertise in marine mammals, and enhanced record-keeping. Our government is putting in place the strongest possible standards of care and protection for marine mammals in captivity in Canada.

Our government is committed to the strongest possible standards of care and protection for marine mammals in captivity because that’s what Ontarians expect, and it’s what these amazing animals deserve. As I said earlier, I have certainly heard from the residents of Newmarket–Aurora that they believe in this legislation.

This legislation builds on our existing protections and follows through on our government’s commitment to develop the best standards and protections for marine mammals in captivity. We’re not stopping with this legislation; we’re taking the next step. We’re establishing a technical advisory group of scientific experts, industry, enforcement and advocacy to give advice to us on the final, enhanced standards of care. In his report, Dr. Rosen outlined what elements those standards should govern in terms of light, sound, water quality and enclosure size. We look forward to hearing the advice, discussion and feedback of all interested parties.

The proposed standards of care will be posted publicly for comment this spring, we hope, before being enacted by regulation in the summer of 2015. Facilities with marine mammals in Ontario would need to adhere to the new standards. Both the legislation and the process we’re going through with the technical advisory group are about ensuring that Ontario has the best standards of care possible for marine mammals. These enhanced standards will give the public confidence that these magnificent creatures are being properly cared for and protected.

The government has had the opportunity to meet with many of our partners on this issue. I’m optimistic about Marineland’s willingness to work with us as we move to ensure that we have the best standards of care in place and they remain a strong part of Niagara’s economy.

I just wanted to touch on a couple of facts and figures. Some of the questions that have surfaced around the orca prohibition debate—one of the questions is, how will people who violate the orca prohibition be punished? I can tell you the proposal. Six months after royal assent, a person found to possess an orca that was acquired after the introduction of the bill would be liable, on conviction, to a fine of not more than $60,000 and imprisonment of up to two years—pretty profound, Mr. Speaker.

How will the ban be enforced? The OSPCA would be empowered to enforce the new standards of care and orca prohibitions, based on their existing authority under the OSPCA Act to enforce any law in force in Ontario “pertaining to the welfare of or the prevention of cruelty to animals.”

The proposed bill would not grant OSPCA inspectors additional powers to investigate, but it would allow them to enforce, using the general provisions.

Mr. Speaker, it’s a pleasure to be able to stand today and speak on this very important bill—important for a number of reasons, but, I think, primarily above them, it’s a very moral bill that we’ve introduced to make sure that orcas are treated well and that we have no more of them moved to Ontario.

With that, Mr. Speaker, I would turn the spotlight to our member from Etobicoke–Lakeshore for his comments.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): The member for Etobicoke–Lakeshore.

Mr. Peter Z. Milczyn: Who are the orcas, and why do they matter? Mr. Speaker, these are some of the most beautiful and majestic animals on the earth. They are very large. They’re very complex. They’re very intelligent. They matter in that we should be humane to all living beings, but particularly to such tremendous creatures that live in the wild and who rightfully should only live in the wild.

Some of the most passionate interactions I have with my constituents are when they raise issues of animal welfare, whether it be for domestic animals or for animals in the wild. That is why, for our government, the treatment of animals is very important.

In my own home, my wife, Rose, and my daughter, Ariana, are self-described animal advocates, so my position on this today is something that’s going to be very closely scrutinized by all of my constituents, including those at home.

This legislation will build on our existing protections and follows through on our government’s commitment to develop the best standards and protection for marine mammals in captivity. If passed, Bill 80 will prohibit the breeding and acquisition of orca whales in Ontario, and it will dramatically improve conditions for all captive marine mammals. This is about ensuring that Ontario has the best standards of care possible for marine mammals

I’m very pleased that the Ontario Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Amendment Act includes a fine of up to $60,000 and/or two years in prison on the first conviction for either breeding or buying and selling orcas. This is very important, Mr. Speaker, because it’s important, when we pass legislation, that it has teeth to it, real penalties for those who would try to go against the intent of the legislation.

Also, the minister will be working on a series of additional improvements regarding the care of marine mammals. This will include better standards for larger enclosures, water quality inspections, higher standards for noise and lighting as well as improved standards for the handling and display of these mammals. Those changes are expected in approximately six months.

I’m pleased that if this legislation is passed, it will make Ontario the first Canadian jurisdiction to have specific standards for the care of marine animals.

Mr. Speaker, the minister is not stopping at this legislation to ensure that we increase standards of care for marine mammals. We’re moving forward with action to establish a technical advisory group of scientific experts, industry, enforcement and advocacy groups to give advice on the final enhanced standards of care.

It’s very encouraging to hear support for this legislation coming from my colleagues in the third party. I’m very pleased to see that they do see the bigger picture here.

I know that the question has been raised as to why we’re focusing on orcas in this legislation. That’s because these are particularly complex and extraordinary animals and exceptionally large. There is no way to establish human-built habitats for them that would be acceptable. As we get a better understanding of the science behind these animals, it’s clear that we need to take action and enact a ban on the breeding and acquisition of orcas in Ontario.

Mr. Speaker, there’s much more that can be said on this, but I am sharing my time with the member from Ottawa South, so I’ll allow him to build upon the remarks.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): The member for Ottawa South.

Mr. John Fraser: It’s a pleasure today to speak to Bill 80, essentially

an act to protect marine mammals.

It’s very encouraging to hear the debate—

Interjection.

Mr. John Fraser: Yes, Free Willy.

As the member from Etobicoke–Lakeshore said, “Who are the orcas?”

It’s interesting that we’ve always had relationships with the animals that we share this planet with. We often have to get to the point where we realize that they’re there, that we have a special relationship with them and that things like very large animals being kept in very tight quarters—I think the member from Algoma–Manitoulin mentioned, how would we react if we went by a house in a yard where you had my lab, Jackie, on a three-foot chain? She’s meant to be out and running. That’s what we’re looking at.

I think, if you listen to the debate, we have a very close relationship with animals. We want to make sure that we respect them, that we treat them humanely. This bill moves to do that and moves to not only ban the purchase and breeding of orcas here in Ontario but also to make sure that we establish a committee that’s going to ensure the protection of marine mammals.

My daughter is probably not listening. I think it’s important that we have a relationship and that we have places like Marineland for the educational purpose. It had captured her imagination. She’s now 36. We unfortunately have never got there. I just want to tell her this morning, I promise we’ll get there. She hasn’t forgiven me yet. But she was very captured by the whales. I think that she understands now that keeping animals in those kind of quarters isn’t fair to them. That’s the humane thing to do. It’s the thing we would want to do for each other.

I also want to commend the member from Parkdale–High Park, who gave a very impassioned speech the other day, which I had the opportunity to listen to. I think it’s very clear that most of us in this Legislature support this bill. At least that’s what I’ve understood from the debate.

I look forward to the continuation of the debate, the continuation, I reckon, in Ontario of ensuring that we look after the safety and the proper care of animals we share this planet with.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): The member for Scarborough Southwest.

Mr. Lorenzo Berardinetti: It’s a pleasure to be able to say a few words about Bill 80. My colleagues have spoken about what the bill is about: It’s basically to protect the orca whale from being kept in captivity or from being bred.

I just want to say a little bit about the orca whale. Orca whales are highly social, almost like they have a family. They communicate with each other, which is very rare.

Also, they do hunt. When they go hunting, they have highly sophisticated ways of hunting. Some of the whales will be up at one end and some will be at the back end, and they’ll chase after their prey and try to catch it. So, again, as previous colleagues have said, imagine chaining a dog or an animal that is highly sophisticated on a four- or five-foot chain and limiting it to that.

The thing also about the orcas is that they have certain sounds they make with each other, for communication. We haven’t yet discovered what exactly they’re saying, but we know they are talking with each other.

The bill in front of us says you can’t keep these animals in an aquarium area. It’s just not right.

I’ll give you an example. I tabled a private member’s bill last session to do with elephants. Elephants are in the same category, probably a little bit smarter. I have three cats at home. My wife and I have three stray cats that we brought into the house. Once in a while, I pick up a cat and put it in front of the mirror. The cat doesn’t really understand or make sense of the fact that the cat is being reflected off the mirror. Most animals can’t do that.

However, if you put a piece of masking tape forming an X on the cheek of an elephant and put a mirror in front of the elephant, the elephant will actually, with its trunk, try to remove the masking tape, because the elephant realizes, “There is something on my cheek,” which other animals, as I was saying, don’t do.

Elephants, again, are very sophisticated. Out in the wild, they go out in families, and if a family member dies, they hold a kind of funeral. They’ll get together around the dead elephant and they will wail or bellow—I’m not sure what the exact word is—in sadness, almost like crying, because one of their colleagues, one of their friends or family members, has died.

So the orcas are in a similar category. We moved, here in Toronto, to take the elephants out of the Toronto Zoo and move them to a sanctuary in California, just north of San Francisco. They’ve joined other elephants there and they go out together as a family. When they’re walking around the sanctuary, it’s not that each one will go separately; they get together. They’re highly social and they go out together and take walks and then decide, “Let’s have some food; let’s eat some branches here.” They work together. One may find water and make a certain sound, and the other elephants will go over and have a drink of water.

It’s the same with orcas—not the same examples, but the same sophisticated communication techniques. I think one day we’ll be able to figure out exactly what the orcas are saying to each other, the way they talk to each other, what their sounds actually mean. They’re probably talking to each other at a different vibration.

Mr. Percy Hatfield: They’re saying, “Vote NDP.”

Mr. Taras Natyshak: They’re saying, “Free Willy.”

Mr. Lorenzo Berardinetti: My colleagues across the aisle here, members of the NDP, have made some comments, and I can’t address them all. I’ve only got a minute and 13 seconds left. But there was a movie that came out, Free Willy, and I know what that was about. It was to free a whale out of a marine facility.

But I think this bill is something that is really, really important and that it comes at the right time. More and more trainers that work with these animals are realizing that these animals are highly intelligent, and, “What am I doing, as a trainer, enclosing this animal or putting food out so it can grab food from my hand and make a group of people in a marine facility be very happy?”

This bill—again, I like it. I think the opposition members like it. We’re having a discussion on it. I look forward to hearing from the opposition members. I look forward to this going to committee. Maybe some amendments will be passed and then brought back to this Legislature for third reading. Thank you.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Thank you very much.

Second reading debate deemed adjourned.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bas Balkissoon): Seeing the time on the clock, this House stands recessed until 10:30 a.m.

The House recessed from 1015 to 1030.

Introduction of Visitors

Hon. Tracy MacCharles: I have a couple of people to introduce this morning. First are Edward Numajiri from my riding of Pickering–Scarborough East and his aunt, Grace Smith—welcome; and Margaret Spoelstra, who is the executive director of Autism Ontario, who is here to mark World Autism Awareness Day.

I want to say welcome to all of you. Thanks for being here.

Ms. Ann Hoggarth: I’d like to welcome visitors from Asheville, North Carolina: Bill Smith, Ann Smith, Darden Smith, Ann Caton Smith and Elizabeth Smith. Welcome. I hope you enjoy today.

Mr. Bob Delaney: On behalf of the member for Ottawa West–Nepean and page captain Jade Proulx, I’m pleased to introduce her mother, Sarah Johnston-Proulx, who will be in the public gallery this morning. Welcome.

Ms. Peggy Sattler: I am very pleased to welcome today Alison Hearn and Vanessa Brown, who have joined us from the University of Western Ontario Faculty Association.

Mr. Han Dong: On behalf of my constituent and page Caleb Woolcott, I would like to welcome his friend Laurie. Laurie is in the public gallery somewhere—oh, there she is. Welcome.

Mrs. Cristina Martins: It gives me great pleasure to introduce to the Legislature this morning Ms. Montarras’s grade 10 civics class from Oakwood Collegiate in my riding of Davenport. Welcome to Queen’s Park, students.

Ms. Eleanor McMahon: I’m absolutely delighted to welcome today to Queen’s Park, from my riding of Burlington, Dana Anderson; her son, Alex; and Andrea Kovacs, founder of PAATH, Parents of Adults with Autism Transitioning with Hope. Welcome to Queen’s Park. Thank you for being here.

Mr. Wayne Gates: I’d like to welcome Henry “Bubba” Ludwa. He’s a great friend of mine. He supported me my entire adult life. Unfortunately, Bubba passed away this week and he’s being buried this morning at 10:30. I know he’s here in spirit, and I just want him to rest in peace.

Mr. Lorenzo Berardinetti: It’s a pleasure for me to introduce my father, Mr. Antonio Berardinetti, who is here today. He’s wearing the red sweater.

I fight with him sometimes; I say to him, “You’re the reason I got into politics”—because I wanted to become a teacher, and he said, “No, you’ve got to become a lawyer, then a politician.” I guess I have mixed feelings, but it’s a pleasure to introduce him today: Mr. Antonio Berardinetti.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): One of the conventions of this place is not to have a family fight on the floor.

Further introductions?

Mrs. Kathryn McGarry: It’s my pleasure today to introduce, from Ottawa, the mother of our page Jade Johnston, Sarah Johnston, here in the east members’ gallery. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

Ms. Indira Naidoo-Harris: I’d like to welcome Stephanie Pause to our Legislature today. Stephanie is visiting us from Copenhagen, Denmark. Stephanie, please wave if you’re over there. I can’t—yes, there you are. Hello.

Ms. Harinder Malhi: I’d like to introduce my good friend and a member of my riding association, Sukhpal Tutt, as well as his colleague Matt Kim.

Mr. Yvan Baker: I just wanted to ask all members to welcome Chris Yaccato from the Ontario Lung Association.

Mr. Percy Hatfield: I’d like to welcome all of the members of the Autism Society here this morning. My statement this afternoon at 1 p.m. will be on Autism Awareness Day.

Mr. Lou Rinaldi: It gives me great pleasure to introduce two students sponsored by the Rotary Club of Brighton, which is my Rotary club: Chloe Chazottes from Toulouse, France, and Kaisa Uoti from Eura, Finland—and of course, my wife, Diane, in the east gallery. Welcome.

Mr. Harinder S. Takhar: I would like to introduce Rachel Matthews. She is the mother of Sarah John, the page from my riding of Mississauga–Erindale, and I want to welcome her.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): This morning in the Speaker’s gallery, we do have guests of the page captain, Thomas Dubois: his mom, Suzanne, his dad, Greg, and his older sister, who was another page—Thomas says he’s doing a better job—Rosalin Dubois. Welcome.

Wearing of ribbons

Hon. Tracy MacCharles: Point of order, Speaker.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Point of order from the Minister of Children and Youth Services and responsible for women’s issues.

Hon. Tracy MacCharles: I believe we have unanimous consent to wear ribbons to recognize Autism Awareness Day today.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The Minister of Children and Youth Services and responsible for women’s issues is asking for unanimous consent to wear ribbons to recognize Autism Awareness Day. Do we agree? Agreed.

Member’s birthday

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Scarborough–Agincourt.

Ms. Soo Wong: I believe one of our colleagues is having a birthday. My seatmate from Glengarry–Prescott–Russell is having a birthday. I think all of us want to wish him a happy birthday.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): On that joyous occasion, it is now time for question period.

Oral Questions

Privatization of public assets

Mr. Jim Wilson: My question is for the Premier. In 1998, as Minister of Energy, I undertook the restructuring of hydro in Ontario, and we created an organization—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Order. I’ve said before that I want the question put and the answer given in quiet.

Please.

Mr. Jim Wilson: At that time, we created an organization called the Ontario Electricity Financing Corp. The purpose of the OEFC was simple: It was responsible for paying off all electricity debt in the province.

As of March 31, 2013—that’s the last year that numbers are available—that electricity debt was $27 billion. That’s about $5,400 per ratepayer.

The law requires that all money coming from a sale of any share in Hydro One, including Brampton, must be used to pay down that electricity debt. Premier, if money from your sale of Hydro One goes to infrastructure, as you claim, where will you find the $27 billion to pay off hydro’s debt?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I know the Minister of Energy is going to want to comment on the details of that question.

I want to just first say that I want to make it clear to the member opposite and to the people of Ontario that the reason we are looking at the assets in this province, the reason we asked Ed Clark and his group to review the assets in the province of Ontario, was—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I’m asking for the same thing in an answer as I did for the question.

Carry on, please.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: —was so that we would have the ability to leverage those assets, to invest in the assets that are needed for the 21st century.

We need badly to build highways, to build roads and bridges and public transit. Quite frankly, there’s a deficit of infrastructure across the country, but in Ontario, we are doing the right thing: We are investing in that infrastructure.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Jim Wilson: Mr. Speaker, we saw this coming. In 1998, we feared that, one day, a Liberal government would come along and look to sell off assets with no regard to paying down the debt. That’s why, when the PC government passed the Electricity Act, we legislated that every dollar from the sale of Hydro One had to go to the OEFC to pay down the province’s electricity debt.

That law still stands, Premier, and it prevents you from putting that money toward anything but the $27-billion debt.

Premier, are you going to obey the law, or will you simply ignore it?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Again, I know that the minister is going to want to speak to the specifics, but I just think it is very important that people understand that this is a member of a party that sold the 407, that took absolutely no care to make sure that there would be an ongoing revenue stream, that there would be ownership on the part of the province or that the money realized from that sale would be used for a specific—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I am going to ask the member from Simcoe North to come to order. I’m also going to indicate to the government side that when she’s answering, there should be no comments, and I’m going to insist on it.

Finish, please.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: There was absolutely no thought, Mr. Speaker, to the investment of the money that was realized from that sale into the future benefit or future assets of the people of the province. All of those things are things that we are taking into account. We are not going to follow the path that the previous government laid out.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Final supplementary.

Mr. Jim Wilson: Mr. Speaker, I don’t think the Premier gets it. Premier, if you use the proceeds from the sale of any part of Hydro One for infrastructure, for example, that $27-billion electricity debt will remain there for ratepayers or taxpayers to pay for many decades to come.

Premier, is the cost of new infrastructure in Ontario going to become another expensive line item on our hydro bills?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Minister of Finance.

Hon. Charles Sousa: The member opposite brings forward and highlights some issues that are of concern to us because that’s the legacy they left when they tried working with this asset. We want to make certain that we do not do a repeat of the damage—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Renfrew, come to order.

Hon. Charles Sousa: —that they created for generations to come—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I suspect he didn’t hear me. The member from Renfrew will come to order. The member from Stormont–Dundas–South Glengarry will come to order.

Carry on, please.

Hon. Charles Sousa: Mr. Speaker, we are not going to speculate on matters that are still being discussed. We have asked the advisory council reporting to the Premier as to the valuations on maximizing the returns to the people of Ontario. It’s critical, as part of those principles, that we provide incremental value to the people of Ontario, that we protect the public interest and that it be open and transparent and independently validated. That’s exactly what we’re doing. Anything that’s created will be there to ensure that we protect the people of Ontario and the ratepayers.

Privatization of public assets

Mr. John Yakabuski: My question is to the Minister of Energy. Minister, let me help by laying out how the Ontario Electricity Financial Corp. works under the law. Currently, the OEFC has about $11.2 billion in stranded debt on top of the $17 billion it is guaranteed from a Hydro One sale. The OEFC currently pays down that $11.2-billion debt through the profits made at Hydro One and OPG. But Minister, if you sell any portion of Hydro One, that revenue stream that is used to pay down the debt will shrink.

How will the OEFC pay down the electricity debt if you take away its primary source of income?

Hon. Bob Chiarelli: Minister of Finance.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The members will come to order.

Minister.

Hon. Charles Sousa: It’s a great question coming from a member, the critic, who actually was part of the government that created the residual debt, and now there’s a retirement charge that the people of Ontario and ratepayers have to repay. As a result, we have taken the precautions and the necessary steps to bring it down.

The member opposite should also know, and he knows fully well, that it’s a function of the revenues coming through that stream, and when those change, it changes the amount of the residual debt. We’re taking every precaution and every care necessary to get it reduced. We’re helping the people of Ontario because of the damages that they created in the past.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. John Yakabuski: Well, Speaker, I’ve never actually sat in government, but I am looking forward to the day.

Again to the Minister of Energy: Minister, we know how you’re going to pay down the debt at OEFC if you sell Hydro One: You’re going to introduce new charges on the bills of electricity ratepayers. It’s the only way you people know how to do business.

Hydro prices are already unaffordable. Just last week, you admitted that they’re going to go up by about $140 per year per customer. I can only imagine what the increase will be when you realize you have to pay down the OEFC debt with less revenue coming from less ownership in Hydro One.

Minister, what new charges will the electricity ratepayers of Ontario see on their bills in order to pay down the debt that you are ignoring?

Hon. Charles Sousa: Well, Mr. Speaker, a couple of things. The OEB is going to be a regulator; it is now and it will continue to be as we proceed forward in any initiatives in regard to pricing. Of course, the minister, and I’ll let him take the next supplementary, has done an excellent job of finding ways to mitigate and protect the people of Ontario and ratepayers as we proceed forward.

The member opposite is also part of a party whose potential leader is talking about looking at this very issue. They’re working on the premise that they want to be able to look at the valuations and the assets that we have before us to see how we can improve upon them. The member opposite and his team are the ones that have also initiated some of these ideas as they follow our lead.

We will lead. We will continue to do what’s right to protect the interests of the public.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Final supplementary.

Mr. John Yakabuski: After 12 years of this mess, they’ve even confused themselves, Speaker. So let’s recap.

Again to the Minister of Energy: The OEFC needs revenue to pay down the $11.2 billion of debt that it currently holds, but by selling off Hydro One, you’re going to have to share that revenue with the new buyer. That means less money for the OEFC to pay down that debt. The only way your Liberal government will make up that lost revenue is by hosing electricity ratepayers yet again.

Minister, when are you going to tell the ratepayers that electricity bills are going to continue to skyrocket when you try to pay down the $11-billion debt that you’re responsible for?

Hon. Charles Sousa: Minister of Energy.

Hon. Bob Chiarelli: Mr. Speaker, the member is beginning with a false premise. He’s beginning with a supposition or a speculation as to what we might be bringing forward.

But let’s talk about the general principle. I have a quote here that I’d like to read. This quote says—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Stormont–Dundas–South Glengarry will come to order.

Carry on.

Hon. Bob Chiarelli: The quote I have says, “As Premier, I will order an immediate review of all assets owned by government. Assets that don’t serve the core functions of government will be divested. And every dollar made will be invested in new infrastructure right across the province.”

And “Let’s use the full value of these assets to build the roads, highways, subways and infrastructure that every Ontarian can use.”

That is from Christine Elliott, member from Whitby–Oshawa, in her campaign. If that’s part of her campaign, she should walk over here and join us.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Order. Stop the clock.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Start the clock.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): No. Your own caucus members were heckling.

New question.

Privatization of public assets

Ms. Andrea Horwath: My question is for the Premier. The energy minister went on live TV to say, “The government has decided that we will be selling a portion of Hydro One.” But in spite of an accidental moment of truth from the energy minister, there are fundamental issues that the Liberals have not addressed.

We’ve seen that the Premier can’t control private power companies; as an example, Eastern Power. You remember Eastern Power, right? They were involved in the Mississauga gas plant scandal. This company has apparently been building pipelines without permission and forcing workers into unsafe work conditions. It seems the gas plant scandal continues.

But we also know that private power costs us more money. So can the Premier promise Ontarians that hydro bills won’t go up after the government privatizes Hydro One and local utilities?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Mr. Speaker, as I have said, as the Minister of Finance has said and as the Minister of Energy has said, one of the principles we’re using in the conversation that we’re having with Mr. Clark and the conversation that he’s having about the assets is that the controlling of price is very important to us; it’s extremely important to the people of Ontario. The regulatory regime is extremely important. So the protecttions of the people of Ontario are at the core of what we know we need to do.

But at the same time, I say to the leader of the third party, she ran on a platform that was exactly the same as ours in terms of looking at assets and building the realization and the leveraging of those assets—the money that could be realized from that—into the plan to build transit and transit infrastructure. The reality is that we are moving forward. We are implementing the plan that we ran on, that she ran on, so that we can invest in—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. Supplementary?

Ms. Andrea Horwath: What’s really clear is that New Democrats are the only party in this House that fundamentally disagrees with the selling-off of our public assets, including our hydro assets.

The Premier will not make the promise that selling off Hydro One and local hydro companies won’t cost Ontarians more, because she knows full well that power bills are going up. It’s going to hurt families. It’s going to hurt manufacturing. It’s going to hurt our resource sector. It’s going to hurt innovators. This morning we heard from the Ontario Federation of Agriculture that it’s going to hurt agriculture. It’s going to hurt everybody, except for a very small handful of private energy interests. Will the Premier finally pull the plug on this ridiculous plan?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: What is very clear is that the leader of the third party is a member of one of two parties in this Legislature who don’t believe that investing in infrastructure for the future is necessary to economic growth in this province. There is no plan that has come forward from either party, particularly not from the NDP, on how to invest in infrastructure: how to build the transit, the roads and the bridges that are needed across this province.

That, Mr. Speaker, is irresponsible. It speaks to a lack of understanding of how the economy in Ontario works, it speaks to a lack of understanding of the needs for the 21st century and it speaks to a lack of understanding of Ontario’s position in the world. Well, we understand that. We’re going to invest in infrastructure.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please.

Final supplementary.

Ms. Andrea Horwath: What the Premier doesn’t understand is that this asset is owned by the people of Ontario, and should be owned by them and their children and their grandchildren and their great-grandchildren from here on in.

It used to be that the only way to pay for transit in this province was by tolling the roads. When the Liberals found that that was not going to fly with the public, all of a sudden they’re going to have an asset sale and sell off everything that Ontarians own.

The Globe and Mail says, “The mandate Ontario’s Liberal government handed former TD Bank chief Ed Clark was flawed from the outset. Selling off prized electricity assets to pay for transit projects smacked more of a cash grab than a considered approach....” It’s—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. Premier.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: We are going to be extremely, extremely thoughtful and careful in all of the work that we do around leveraging assets, Mr. Speaker—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Timmins–James Bay will come to order. Thank you.

Finish, please.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: It is extremely important to the future economy, and to the present economy, of this province that we demonstrate the will to make the investments that are necessary. We cannot talk to people in other countries—we can’t talk to people in China or South America about investing in Ontario, Mr. Speaker, unless we have demonstrated the will to make the investments that are necessary.

The fact is that we have to leverage our assets, and we have to work with the private sector. Because that’s really at the root of what the leader of the third party is talking about: She doesn’t want to work with the private sector, except that when her party was in office, they signed nine private power generation contracts, so apparently—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. New question.

Government’s agenda

Ms. Andrea Horwath: My next question is for the Premier. A cut is a cut, no matter what the Premier calls it. Yesterday, the Premier called a half-a-billion-dollar education cut an “adjustment.” People are being fired, but the Premier says boards have staffed differently. Firing is firing, no matter what the Premier calls it.

Will the Premier admit that she’s cutting education and tell Ontarians how many more schools are going to be closed and how many more education workers are going to be fired in her 2015 budget?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Let’s just begin with the fact that we’ve built 725 schools in this province since this government has been in office, and that there are more than 700 renovations. So on balance, there has been much more building, renovation and enhancement of school buildings, if that’s what we’re talking about, than there has been otherwise.

At the same time, if the leader of the third party understood how staffing models work across boards and in classrooms—

Interjections.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: No, seriously. If the leader of the third party understood that boards make decisions, and in fact, schools make decisions about how they’re going to allocate staff—as enrollment declines, there are decisions that boards have to make across the province. But even in the face of declining enrollment, education funding in this province is stable in the face of fewer students in our schools.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Ms. Andrea Horwath: I think what we need to do is renovate this chamber so that it’s big enough for the Premier’s ego.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Order on all sides, please.

Please finish.

Ms. Andrea Horwath: The Liberals are cutting school board funding, and education workers are getting fired. Gee, that’s so hard to understand.

The Premier is trying to duck responsibility by blaming the boards. The Premier said she got into politics because of cuts to education. Most people thought she was talking about fighting those cuts, not implementing them.

Will she stop her cuts to education?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: In my previous answer, I was talking about staffing. The fact is that 30 years ago, I was cutting my teeth on staffing committees; I was on staffing committees as a parent. I was working with the school board to try to understand how staffing worked—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I’ll get my workout, but I’m going to ask for quiet, please. Thank you.

Carry on.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: It was at that point that I learned how education was working. The member for Kitchener–Waterloo was talking about those years. Those were difficult years because we were working up to having to fight the cuts that Mike Harris was making, and they were the amalgamations. Those were very, very difficult years.

Well, Mr. Speaker, those years are gone. There are billions and billions more dollars in education. That funding is stable, despite the fact that there are fewer students in our schools.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Final supplementary.

Ms. Andrea Horwath: It’s not just schools that the Premier is cutting; the Liberals are also cutting health care. Just this week, we learned there are new nursing cuts in London and Kitchener. Earlier today, we were joined by the Ontario Health Coalition, together with international health experts who are standing up for health care in Niagara.

Will the Premier do the right thing—if not in education, then perhaps in health care—and ensure that the people of the Niagara region have access to health care when and where they need it and keep the Niagara region hospitals open instead of closing them?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I just want to speak to the theme of these questions. The theme is that we can’t change anything, that nothing should change. There should be no transit built. There should be no roads and bridges built because we can’t raise the money to do that. There should be no change at the local school board level, no consolidation of schools, no community hubs created and no renovation of new schools so that new programs can be given to kids. There should be no transformation of the health care system. There should be no more home care in our communities because that would require change, and that would require a different kind of staffing.

So the theme of the NDP is, “Everything’s fine. We can’t change a thing because we cannot look ahead. We cannot use our imagination. We cannot work with the private sector or school boards or hospitals to make the changes that are necessary.”

That’s not who we are, Mr. Speaker. That’s who they are.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please. Thank you.

New question.

Power plant

Mr. Victor Fedeli: My question is for the Premier. Just when you hoped the smell from your gas plant scandal was dissipating, today the odour is as strong as ever. The company you gave a sweetheart deal to as part of your Liberal seat-saver program is at it again. Eastern Power and its subsidiary Greenfield South have now apparently built a pipeline, without a permit, to service your wrongly relocated Mississauga gas plant. This is the same company you gave a $36-million payout to for sunk costs and a $45-million no-interest loan. According to the Auditor General, the total cost of the cancellation is $275 million.

Premier, you can’t cut a tree down in Ontario without a permit. How did you allow your buddies to build a pipeline without one?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please. Thank you.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I’ve made this point before:

When I stand up and I get quiet, it stays that way, and you don’t use it for a chance to get another one in.

Premier.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Minister of Energy.

Hon. Bob Chiarelli: Mr. Speaker, it sounds like the sky is falling down over this dispute and this contract. The reality is, what is going on here is a dispute over where a link will be, where a pipe will go, to provide the gas to this particular facility. It’s an issue that is under the jurisdiction of the Ontario Energy Board. The dispute has been brought before the Ontario Energy Board. I understand that the Ontario Energy Board is going to decide sometime today or tomorrow, to say, “The pipe is going here,” or “It’s going there.” That’s the issue.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary? The member from Nepean–Carleton.

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: Back to the Premier: She contracted for a power plant where it wasn’t wanted and where it should never have been put in the first place. Then she cancelled it to save Liberal seats in the 2011 election, as the campaign co-chair. Later, when her friends at Eastern Power and Greenfield wouldn’t stop construction for another two months after the election, she bent over backwards, opening the public purse to pay for a purely political promise.

Now we find that this Liberal government has turned a blind eye to what Eastern Power is doing at the newly relocated site in Lambton. They are doing whatever they want.

Given the gas plant scandal and, more recently, the Sudbury by-election scandal, should Ontarians really be surprised that this Premier is willing to ignore the law if it suits her own public participation interest?

Hon. Bob Chiarelli: Mr. Speaker, let’s start with the fact that that particular plant is being built with a willing host community. That’s number one.

Number two, this dispute has to do with where a connecting link—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Nepean–Carleton, come to order, and the member from Nipissing, come to order.

Hon. Bob Chiarelli: —to bring gas to the site.

That is a dispute that is being resolved between the parties and that has been brought before the Ontario Energy Board. They’ll be issuing a decision as to where that particular pipe will go, and the issue will be resolved.

They’re making a mountain out of a molehill. They’re trying to go back to the days when they could stand up here every day and talk about the gas plant scandal.

The reality is, we built 20 new gas plants in this province. They’re working and functioning. There are two new ones going under construction. This one has a dispute about a connection for a gas line.

Mr. Speaker, they should get—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Nepean–Carleton will come to order. I do remind her to use the titles or ridings, and I will be forceful on that.

New question.

By-election in Sudbury

Mr. Gilles Bisson: My question is to the Premier. We know that you’re about to have an interview with the Ontario Provincial Police in regard to the bribery scandal. We know that it’s reported that the Ontario Provincial Police do want to interview Mrs. Sorbara, Mr. Lougheed and the MPP from Sudbury, Mr. Thibeault. Can you confirm if those meetings are to take place and the interviews will go forward?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Mr. Speaker, I’ve been clear that I will be having an interview before the end of the month. The investigation is taking place outside of this House. It’s not taking place in this Legislature, Mr. Speaker, and I’ll work with the authorities outside of the Legislature.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Gilles Bisson: I asked a very simple question. There are three people who are also under investigation: Madam Sorbara, Mr. Lougheed and Mr. Thibeault. The question is, are the Ontario Provincial Police setting up meetings, and have your members agreed to have those meetings with the OPP, to be interviewed in regard to the Sudbury bribery scandal: yes or no?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Mr. Speaker, I can only speak for my schedule. Some days I can barely speak for my schedule. I know that I am going to be meeting with the OPP before the end of the month. I will work with the authorities outside of this Legislature. But that is the point: The investigation is taking place outside of the Legislature with the authorities, and I will work with them in that process.

Agri-food industry

Ms. Daiene Vernile: My question is for the Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs. We know that farmers feed cities and are an integral part of our $34-billion agri-food industry. But if it’s going to grow and continue to compete internationally, more needs to be done.

In October 2013, the Premier challenged our agri-food industry to double its growth rate to create 120,000 new jobs by 2020. In order to help meet this challenge, we need to work with that industry to identify opportunities for growth and innovation.

Just last weekend in Waterloo region, for instance, the Elmira Maple Syrup Festival attracted a crowd of thousands. They ate 10,000 pancakes smothered with over 680 litres of maple syrup made by local producers. One of them is a good friend of mine, Dennis Weber, who’s a third-generation maple syrup producer near St. Jacob’s.

I’d like to ask the minister to update this House on the status of the Premier’s growth plan.

Hon. Jeff Leal: I want to thank the great member from Kitchener Centre for asking this question. She had a very distinguished career with CTV News before she arrived here, so she has a great perspective of what’s going on right in the province of Ontario.

Maple syrup is one of our province’s oldest traditional agricultural products. We have more than 2,500 producers right across the province of Ontario, and we all know that Lanark county, in eastern Ontario, is the maple syrup capital of Ontario. Together, we harvest about 1.5 million litres of syrup, making Ontario one of the top three producers in Canada, grossing more than $32 million in maple product sales and contributing over $53 million to Canada’s GDP.

Mr. Speaker, our government—your government—is here to work with our agri-food industry partners, like maple syrup producers, to help them meet the Premier’s growth challenge. We will measure progress as we move along the way, with our new growth steering committee that we recently announced—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I stand, you sit.

Supplementary?

Ms. Daiene Vernile: Thank you, Minister, for that answer. We’ll hear some more from you in just a moment. It’s encouraging to hear that our government is committed to working with our maple syrup producers.

Minister, in December 2014, the federal government announced changes to the federal maple products regulations under the Canada Agricultural Products Act. This is for common standards for grading, colour classifications and labelling for maple products across all maple-producing jurisdictions. The approved regulation came into effect in December of last year, with a two-year implementation period to allow time for the industry to meet the new requirements.

Spokespeople with the Ontario Maple Syrup Producers Association are telling us that regulatory harmonization would provide a number of benefits to their industry. Can the minister please inform this House on a timeline when Ontario producers can expect to see changes?

Hon. Jeff Leal: I want to thank the member from Kitchener Centre for the supplementary.

We want to ensure, as the Premier says, that we have a very robust conversation, encouraging growth and exploring how the sector can contribute to the Premier’s Agri-Food Growth Challenge. Our government—your government—is committed to working with our maple syrup producers to meet their needs and support them in their efforts to grow their businesses and contribute positively to Ontario’s economy.

I do know that those pancakes in Elmira came from Peterborough, from Quaker Oats.

Social Assistance Management System

Mr. Bill Walker: To the Minister of Community and Social Services: Yesterday, you released the SAMS—such a mess system—interim report. Sadly, it was 20 pages of nothing. In fact, the scope of the report explicitly says it does not provide an assessment of the overall system or infrastructure performance of SAMS. Minister, vulnerable citizens who depend on social assistance want answers. Front-line workers want answers. Yet this report is obviously just an attempt by your government to deflect people from the real problem, and a waste of $200,000.

Minister, can you explain why these key areas were omitted from the report, and how the people of Ontario can trust you to manage this file going forward?

Hon. Helena Jaczek: Certainly, we have acknowledged the problems with SAMS, and we know that there is a lot more work to do. This is why we commissioned PricewaterhouseCoopers to help us going forward in terms of improving the system.

In terms of the functionality of the system, of course, the proof really is, how are we helping vulnerable Ontarians? We have now had five successful pay runs for both ODSP and OW, payment to 570,000 families, over three million payments to our most vulnerable Ontarians.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Bill Walker: Back to the Minister of Community and Social Services: Minister, yesterday in scrums, when asked why you implemented a system that clearly wasn’t ready, you responded by saying, “Hindsight is 20/20.” When you say it will be a seamless rollout, despite warnings from front-line workers and the opposition, you had better be certain.

I’m going to challenge your five seamless runs. Yesterday was cheque day, and hundreds of thousands of people did not get their cheques. You are playing with people’s lives. Our vulnerable recipients deserve better, and so do our front-line staff.

Minister, people have lost confidence. Will you do the honourable thing, accept responsibility for the continuing SAMS boondoggle and resign today?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please. Thank you.

Minister?

Hon. Helena Jaczek: There is some incorrect information related to yesterday’s cheque run. I’ve been assured that it was a success.

I have visited a number of front-line offices—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Member from Bruce–Grey–Owen Sound, second time.

Hon. Helena Jaczek: I have visited Hamilton ODSP, Brantford OW, Toronto OW, North Bay DSAB and the ODSP office there, Peterborough OW and ODSP, and Ottawa OW. I was able to thank some of the social assistance workers in Mississauga for their great efforts. I have listened to front-line workers. I want to thank them for their dedication. I want to thank them for their frankness in speaking directly to me with their concerns.

This is precisely what PricewaterhouseCoopers is addressing in the final report. We look forward to their recommendations.

Social Assistance Management System

Miss Monique Taylor: My question is to the Premier. No one is above accountability in this Legislature, but the Minister of Community and Social Services—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): That will do.

Carry on.

Miss Monique Taylor: —the Minister of Community and Social Services refuses to take responsibility for the SAMS fiasco.

Since November, families have been underpaid. Cheques have been too late to pay the rent. Staff are overwhelmed and exhausted. Just yesterday, SAMS had to be rebooted, forcing staff to reassess many of their cases.

SAMS is a nightmare, but the Liberals still think they aren’t accountable to the people of Ontario. What will it take for the Premier to ask for the minister’s resignation?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I know the Minister of Community and Social Services will want to speak to the supplementary, but I believe I just heard her take responsibility. I believe I just heard her say that we recognize that there have been problems with the implementation of SAMS. Absolutely, we understand that there have been problems.

Furthermore, we understand that there has been stress on front-line workers. That’s why the minister has been visiting offices. That’s why she has been listening to what they have to say. That’s why there is a report being written.

The fact is, there needed to be a change. There needed to be a new system put in place so the service could be better.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Renfrew, come to order—second time.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: There have been problems with the implementation of that system. The fact is, we are addressing those problems so that the front-line workers will have the support that they need and so that the service to recipients will be improved.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Prince Edward–Hastings, come to order—second time.

Supplementary?

Miss Monique Taylor: The minister told us last Thursday, “We have been extremely successful.” But here’s how the Liberals measure success: 21 weeks of chaos, 500,000 T5s shredded, privacy of 720 clients breached, $240 million and counting wasted on software that doesn’t work, and now $200,000 spent on a report that ignores the biggest issues that staff and recipients have been telling the Liberals about for months: The functionality of the system doesn’t work.

How much needs to go wrong before the Premier asks this minister to resign?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Minister of Community and Social Services.

Hon. Helena Jaczek: My responsibility certainly lies, looking forward, to ensuring that SAMS does come to full implementation. I’m taking that extremely seriously. This is why we wanted a fresh set of eyes with PricewaterhouseCoopers to give us some good advice going forward. In fact, they have acknowledged some of the successes to date. Some 57 priority issues have been addressed. We have opened help lines to assist those staff who are clearly quite stressed, we have developed new and updated job aids, and we are releasing updates regularly to staff to improve communication.

I am given the mandate by our Premier to continue to work as hard as I can to ensure that all our officials are also doing that, to ensure that vulnerable Ontarians are looked after appropriately.

Pan Am Games

Mrs. Cristina Martins: Yesterday at the Legislature, I was able to see the medals for the Pan/Parapan Am Games up close and personal. Let me tell you—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The question is to?

Mrs. Cristina Martins: I’m sorry. The question is for the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Sport.

As I was saying, those medals are simply amazing. I was able to see how they were made and learn the story behind them.

The artwork of the medals was designed in collaboration with Christi Belcourt, a Métis visual artist. This is the first time that Braille has been incorporated into the medals for the Pan/Parapan Am Games. Seeing the medals here in the Legislature allowed everything to really sink in: The Pan/Parapan Am Games are coming. Yesterday marked 100 days until the games, and I’m so excited to be welcoming so many people to our province.

Can the minister responsible for the Pan/Parapan Am Games update us on where we are, 99 days out from the games?

Hon. Michael Coteau: I want to thank the member from Davenport for her advocacy and for working within her community to really push these games. Thank you so much. I know you’re a big supporter, and you’ve been doing a great job in engaging your community.

We’re 99 days away from the games, and the excitement is building. Over 60,000 people have signed up to volunteer. We’ve sold over 350,000 tickets. Fifteen of the capital venues, including 11 of the athletic facilities, have been completed and are open for community use.

Yesterday, we marked the 100th day until the games by welcoming 100 new Canadians with a citizenship ceremony held at our spectacular athletes’ village. This was a great example of how these games embody so much more than just the Pan/Parapan Am Games; they represent the diversity that we value here in the province of Ontario. I’m so proud to support these games.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mrs. Cristina Martins: Excitement for the games is building up in my riding of Davenport and across the province. The celebrations have already begun.

Last week, I attended the IGNITE event held in the Legislature. Through the IGNITE program, Ontario is supporting celebrations across the province to connect residents and visitors with the spirit and cultural diversity of the Pan/Parapan Am Games. At the event last week, there was food from Latin America and the Caribbean, steel band performers, and people painting murals, among other performances. The event gave only a sneak peek of what we can expect as the games begin and into the excitement that will take over our province over the next 99 days.

Speaker, through you to the minister: Can you tell us more about how our government is supporting communities in celebrations of the Pan/Parapan Am Games?

Hon. Michael Coteau: Again, thank you to the member.

When we won the bid for these games, we felt it was important to have these games in 16 municipalities across the Golden Horseshoe. The torch will stop at 130 communities, starting in beautiful Thunder Bay.

We want people from across this province to share in this excitement and, of course, to support a wide range of events and organizations helping to promote and celebrate the spirit of these games. That’s why I’m proud that our government has funded 103 IGNITE celebrations in communities across the great province of Ontario to engage communities.

So 2015 is a time for celebrating our Pan-American connection and the spirit of sport. In 99 days, we will host the largest multi-sport event in the history of this nation, and I am so proud to be a part of these games, Speaker.

Provincial deficit

Mr. Toby Barrett: Speaker, to the Premier: Premier, just before you became Liberal leader in 2012, you stated, “When I say we need to stay on our government’s fiscal plan of balancing the budget by 2017-18, I mean it.” So you want us to believe in a balanced budget in two years despite the fact that your deficits have been increasing over the past three years, not decreasing. Your hand-picked economist, Don Drummond, predicts a $30.2-billion deficit in two years; you say zero.

Who are we to believe: you or your repeatedly misleading numbers from Don Drummond?

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I’m going to ask the member to withdraw that.

Mr. Toby Barrett: Withdraw.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you.

Premier?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Minister of Finance.

Hon. Charles Sousa: It’s an interesting question, given the fact that we released a report back in November talking about some of the challenges before us over the next 20 years. We commissioned the report from Mr. Drummond, who provided a number of recommendations, of which we are now applying well over 80%. He himself has acknowledged that we far exceeded even his expectations.

But to answer your question more directly, you should believe the numbers that are being reported. The numbers that are being reported show that $1.6 billion has been saved by this government over this year. We’re on track to balance by 2017-18, and I’m very proud of the work that all Ontarians are doing to step it up.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Toby Barrett: I certainly don’t believe either one of you. Year after year, you present to this House phony deficit numbers, fake numbers, purposely designed to confuse the people of Ontario into thinking—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Stop the clock, please. The member from Beaches–East York will withdraw.

Mr. Arthur Potts: Withdraw, Speaker.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Carry on.

Mr. Toby Barrett: You confuse the people of Ontario into thinking that your increasing deficits aren’t that significant. Your inflated deficit projections are a deliberate scam to obfuscate the real deficit numbers that—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member will withdraw.

Mr. Toby Barrett: Withdraw.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Finish.

Mr. Toby Barrett: A bit of a trick, to obfuscate. Premier, you have done this three years—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member will withdraw.

Mr. Toby Barrett: Withdraw.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Now I will ask the Minister of Finance to answer.

Hon. Charles Sousa: Mr. Speaker, and really to all members of this House, we try to do our best with integrity, and we are being very forthright in what we do.

Interjections.

Hon. Charles Sousa: No, seriously. We respect—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Order.

To me, please.

Hon. Charles Sousa: We certainly respect questions that come before us, and I believe people’s intentions, regardless of political stripe, are good. But frankly, to suggest that we are trying to do something other than to try to bring forward something that is real to the people of Ontario, as we’ve done—the Conference Board of Canada has already cited that Ontario far exceeds every other government in Canada for its integrity.

We do believe that Ontarians want what we’re about to put forward, and that’s improved numbers on track to balance by 2017-18, and we’ll work together.

Executive compensation

Ms. Peggy Sattler: My question is to the Premier. Speaker, I have asked the Premier three times this week if she will prohibit university boards of governors from negotiating million-dollar salaries for university presidents. Yesterday, the President of the Treasury Board said that Bill 8 would address this issue.

The problem is Bill 8 does nothing to prevent double salary payouts from being negotiated in the future. Ontarians could be seeing more double salary deals for university presidents, paid for by public dollars, rising student tuition fees and cuts to university budgets.

Premier, university presidents are already among the highest-paid public sector employees in Ontario. How can your government defend a system that allows university presidents to earn twice their salary if they don’t go on leave?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: In fact, none of us on this side of the House is defending that. In fact, I’m very pleased to know that a portion of the president’s salary will be returned.

We know that there’s a problem with executive compensation. That’s why we brought in Bill 8. That’s why we brought in the accountability act.

Just to correct what the member said: In fact, the accountability act does enable the government to prohibit pay in lieu of leave when looking at compensation frameworks. I asked that question explicitly, Mr. Speaker. As we look at the whole compensation, the executive compensation, it is possible within the scope of Bill 8 to look at exactly this kind of thing.

So, Mr. Speaker, we’re not defending it. We’re not defending it. We are looking at the whole compensation package, including this kind of mechanism.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary? The mamber from Kitchener–Waterloo.

Ms. Catherine Fife: Again to the Premier: In September 2012, the Liberal government told Ontarians that “executive pay would be permanently capped at no more than double the Premier’s salary—$418,000 per year.”

We now know that last year, 181 individuals made more than twice the Premier’s salary, an increase of 24% from the year before. So the problem of skyrocketing public sector CEO salaries in Ontario is clearly getting worse; it’s not getting better.

Yesterday, the Deputy Premier assured this House that Bill 8 sets limits on public sector CEO compensation. Of course, anyone who reads the bill knows that it does not cap compensation. However, on Monday, the Liberal member for Kitchener Centre told CBC KW something completely different. When asked about the out-of-control public sector CEO salaries, she said that “we’re going to see hard cap, so look for that in the upcoming budget.” Which is it, Premier?

In the face of cuts to hospitals and schools, and soaring public CEO pay, it’s an insult to hard-working families.

Speaker, can the Premier tell Ontarians whether her government will follow through on its promise to cap public sector CEO salaries, or just keep telling Ontarians one thing and doing another?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: We’ve been very clear that there will be caps. That’s what Bill 8 was about; the accountability act is there. What’s remarkable is that this party, the NDP, didn’t vote for that act.

The member opposite knows full well that there will be caps, she knows that there will be a range. She also knows that her leader also said that there need to be exemptions. She said—this is November 27, 2013—the NDP leader said, “When we’re talking about people—the top nuclear engineers in the world, for example—we’ve made an exemption for that type of case in the bill. We would have to look at those folks on a case-by-case basis. That’s why the exemption exists.”

The NDP understands that we need caps. We’ve got caps in the bill. The NDP understands that there has to be a range of salaries. That’s in the bill. The NDP understands that there have to be exemptions. That’s in the bill. And they didn’t vote for it.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be