Manitoba Hansard — 16 June 1992 (Sitting 87B, 35th Legislature, 3rd Session)

35-3-87b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Third Session - Thirty-Fifth Leg islature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS {HANSARD) 39-40 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of 71le Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XLI No. 878 • 7 p.m., TUESDAY, JUNE 16, 1992 Printed by the Office of the 0.-ns Printer. Province of Manitoba ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERIUI, Marianne CHEEMA, Guizar CHOMIAK, Dave CONNER Y, Edward CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard , Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Ciif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FIN DLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GIUESHAM MER, Harold, Hon. HARPER, Elijah HELWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATH LIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEUFELD, Harold ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy WOWCHUK, Rosann CONSTITUENCY Osbome Thompson Wellington River Heights Radisson The Maples Klldonan Portage Ia Prairie Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Rupertsland Gimli Point Douglas Inkster The Pas St. Norbert Elmwood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Asslniboia River East Rossmere Pembina Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Ain Aon La Verendrye Fort Garry St.

Johns Swan River PARTY Liberal NDP NDP Liberal NDP Liberal NDP PC PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC NDP PC NDP Liberal NDP PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP

4782 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday,June16,1992 The House met at 7 p.m. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) DECENTRALIZATION The Acting Deputy Chairperson (Mr. Jack Penner): Would the committee please come to order. We are now commencing consideration of Estimates for Rural Development, Decentralization. Would the minister have an opening statement? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister responsible for Decentralization): Yes, I do, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson. I have a short statement to make. May I proceed? The Acting Deputy Chairperson (Mr. Penner): Proceed, please. Mr. Derkach: Thank you very much.

I am pleased to present the Estimates for Decentralization for review. As the members of the committee know, this has been a part of the Rural Development portfolio that I assumed early in the new year. Since that time, we have embarked on several initiatives. We have had several official openings of offices that have been decentralized, and in a general tone, I might say, the entire experience has been a very positive one. Members of the committee will know that the decentralization initiative was announced in March of 1990, and it basically had three objectives.

First, it was to provide for an economic boost to rural communities and to bring services closer to the people who lived outside of the city. Secondly, the employees affected by decentralization would be treated in a fair and com passionate manner, and thirdly, decentralization would be carried out in an efficient and economic manner on behalf of the taxpayers of the province. As I said, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson and members of the committee, decentralization has been a total success to this point in time. To date we have decentralized 539 positions, including 10 4 Crown positions.

There are another 47 positions, where building contracts have been awarded, and these positions will be in place in the near future. As well, 134 positions are currently in the process or in progress and will be relocated to rural Manitoba. In total this brings the number to 720 and clearly shows that decentralization has given rural Manitoba a boost and brought services closer to the people of those communities. The total number of positions that have been decentralized is greater than the number of positions originally announced in March of 1990.

The Decentraliz ation Comm ittee has been dilig ently wor king with all de partm en ts of government and Crown corporations to identify programs that can be decentralized in accordance with the stated objectives, but none of this goes without some repercussions in terms of the effect it has on people and their lives. To date we have had seven layoffs as a result of dece ntralization. Of the 21 1 em ployees who decided not to relocate, 16 5 have been redeployed to suitable positions within government, which represents about a 78 percent success rate.

Of the 65 employees yet to be redeployed, 46 are not scheduled to relocate until 1993, and the other 19 have not declared their intentions. I might also say that we have had some very positive feedback, or I should say that staff in the department have had some very positive feedback from employees who have decided to decentra lize. •

(1905) I might tell you that from anecdotes that have been received, certainly there is a very positive attitude about people who have decentralized to rural Manitoba and the surroundings that they find themselves in. As a matter of fact, we now have people from the Civil Service who are calling the decent raliz ation office and asking about opportunities to decentr alize. Certainly, this was not viewed as th e case when we started decentralization, and indeed, I have to tell you that the opposition made a great deal of kafuffle about the fact that we were going to be playing with people's lives, and that indeed decentralization was not going to work and that it would not be supported.

4783 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANIT OBA June 16 , 19 92 Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I have to tell you that it has been an extreme and an extraordinary success story in our province. I think that the credit has to go to the people who have worked so hard to make this come about, and there have been roadblocks put in place, and those have been surpassed in a very positive way. On another positive note, the decentral ization initiative has been carried out in a very economic and efficient manner. The total projected cost for dece ntralization, as members will recall, was targeted at about $1 0 million.

To date, the total cost associated with decentralization is $1 .283 million in 1991 and $1 .314 million in 1991-92, for a total cost of $2.598 million. This is substantially less than what was projected in the beginning. In a nu tshe ll, I have to tell you that decentralization has been a major success. The initiative that the government and the people have undertaken has indeed worked for the benefit of many Manitobans, indeed, most importantly, for those rural communities that have seen a very positive stimulus in terms of how the economy of their own local communities has been affected. Mr.

Acting Deputy Chairperson, those are just a few of the opening remarks that I thought were important to place on the record . We are still continuing our work on decentralization and are pushing forward with as many of the projects as we can. I will not say that we have completed our responsibilities. As a matter of fact, it is an ongoing process. As ind icated, we had identified about 650 positions for decentraliza tion. We now have 720. I am hopeful that in the near future, communities that may not have had the benefit of decentral ization will receive that benefit as well.

So with that, I have concluded my remarks. Thank you. The AcUng Deputy Chairperson (Mr. Penner): Thank you very much. Would the critic for the official opposition have a remark? Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Mr. Acting Depu ty Chair person, the Mini ster of Ru ral Development (Mr. Derkach) has just indicated that the decentralization program appears to be quite successful. As a rural Manitoban, I am pleased to see that there are jobs going to rural Manitoba. As a rural Manitoban, I want to see services brought closer to the people and have services there.

The minister had said that opposition members were skeptical and people who were involved in the move were skeptical as well. Of course, I think the minister would understand that if he was being asked to move to a new place where he had not lived before and was not sure what was going to be happening, there was bound to be some skepticism on the part of the employees who were being transferred out.

I am pleased that it has worked so well, and that those people who have taken those jobs are settling into the rural community and accepting the rural way of life because those of us who live there know that it is a quality of life there that more people should be able to enjoy. •

(1910) As for myself and members of our caucus, we were skeptical. I never at any point said we did not support decentralization, but we were concerned about the way it was handled and the fact that there was a bit of politics being played with it coming before an election. One of the concerns we do have is that some of the jobs did not work out. In particular, the ones that come to mind are the jobs to Dauphin that we have dis cussed many times. There were many jobs promised there, and that has not worked out.

As we get a little further into questioning, perhaps we can talk a little bit more about that part of it, but I am pleased that services are coming closer to the community, and I guess when we get into the questioning, I would like to ask the minister about some of the things that have been raised by people in the communities. For example, are the jobs that are moved from one rural community to another rural community counted as decentralization jobs? There were jobs that went from Dauphin, I believe, to Minnedosa, some water resources jobs.

I would want to know whether those were counted as decentralization jobs because if they were, then in reality that is not decentralization. That is moving jobs from one community to another community that are already there. The economics of it as well, we have a few questions in that area that we will raise as we get into the questioning, and I guess whether there are concerns from any particular people who had great difficulty with the moves and how those people were treated.

That would be one of the concerns I have, and some of the cost efficiencies that have happened, and we would want a little bit of detail on

June 16 , 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 4784 the actual costs and who is picking up some of the costs, whether they are within departments, or who is having to pick up some of the things. In reality, we are pleased that decentralization has gone as well as it has. The one disappointment I do have in the program is that it is not reaching all parts of the province. There seem to be targeted areas.

It was our hope that when decent ralization was being looked at, the government would look at areas of very high unemployment where there was need to stimulate the economy and need for job creation, and it appears that many of the jobs that have been decentralized have gone to areas that do not have nearly the rate of unemployment as some of the other areas in the province. So I guess I would also like to ask the minister as we get into it if there is any consideration being given at the present time or in the future to carry on further with decentralizat ion.

Are there other departments that the government is looking at to take services out of the city and closer into the community, and if that is the case, what areas of the province would you be looking at to take these services out? I will close my comments with that and let the other critic make his comments, and then perhaps we can ask some questions. The Acting Deputy Chairperson (Mr. Penner): Thank you very much. Would the member of the third opposition have a statement? Mr.

Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): I am not too sure if I am going to give the type of qualified support that was received from the official opposition, to the degree it was given. I think that the minister, when he originally set out the three things that the government was trying to achieve when it came up with the decentralization plan-they are somewhat admirable, but I would question whether or not the government in fact has achieved it. He made reference in terms of the economic boost, and we had argued back when the government had announced the plan that, yes, there would be some economic boost.

Whether it was maximum economic boost is something that we would question. If you start transferring individuals from the city of Winnipeg into rural Manitoba, are they in fact moving out to the rural communities or are they commuting? Those were some of the concerns that we had raised when the government had made the announcement. The government talked in terms of treating the employees well. That was another objective. I think that most are quite familiar with it. Well, the government has not necessarily treated all individuals well.

When the announcement was made, I under stand it was in Brandon in the late fall or winter, when the Premier (Mr. Almon) was making an announcement, I know our Leader of the Liberal Party (Mrs. Carstairs) said that she was concerned at the manner in which the Premier would get up on a platform and say that we are going to decentralize these hundreds of positions without consulting with the Civil Service, in particular the MGEA. * (1 915) Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I know that I had conversations with some of my own constituents which this decentralization plan had an Impact on.

With one individual who was married, her husband was working within the city in one of the canning manufacturers and felt that now the choice that they had is either to accept the position, to go out, or to take some sort of rede ployment program if it was going to be made available. The minister should be well aware of the fact that the government was very reluctant at the beginning in terms of giving any sort of assurances to indivi duals, because this was something that we had raised shortly after the announcement was made. The manner in which the then-minister, in particular the Premier (Mr.

Filmon), responded to those questions did not give assurances that if people did not accept the post they were being given, that they would have a job at the end of it. So I look at where I have had at least two calls from individuals from within my own riding where the individuals were very concerned that they were being forced to move out, pull up their families from school. In this one particular case, the spouse would have to quit work and so forth. Then the government talks about doing it in as efficient a manner as possible.

Well, I would be interes ted in finding out how efficient the government really has been in doing this in terms of the leasing, in terms of the time period. The government had made a commitment, and we will try to get, again, what that commitment was in terms of when these numbers of positions were going to be put out, what type of a time frame and so forth and some of the costs the government might be

4785 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA June 16 , 19 92 incurring that they did not plan on, for example, in terms of the construction or the leasing and so forth. Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, it goes without saying that every member of the Chamber, I believe, wants rural Manitoba to succeed and to grow, just like I am sure every rural Manitoban would like to see the city of Winnipeg prosper. What is important to us is that when the government makes a commitment to do something, that there are winners on all sides.

The manner in which the government had initially introduced the decentralization plan, there were not too many winners. I had heard of complaints not only from the people living in Winnipeg, but also rural communities, rural communities that felt, well, why do we not get some of these positions? Why is it that they are getting them over here, and so forth. There was a signif icant lack of commu nication from the government with the different municipalities, with the city, the MGEA and so forth, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson.

So I am somewhat hopeful to clarify some of the comments that I have put on the record in hopes that the minister would be able to address them, even though I know he was not the minister when it was initially implemented, and we will have a number of questions as to what the current status is. Having said that, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, once again, to conclude, I would say that we are in fa vour, as an opposition pa rty, of the dece ntralization because we feel that it is something that government can do to give the rural community the boost that is in fact necessary, warranted and well deserved.

Having said that, we will go into questions. * (1 920) The Acting Deputy Chairperson (Mr. Penner): Thank you very much. I under stand the minister might want to introduce his staff. Mr. Derkach: Yes, thank you, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson. I would like to introduce staff to the members of the committee: first of all, our new Deputy Minister of Rural Development, Mr. Winston Hodgins; Mr. Syd Reimer, who is the director of decentralization or the decentralization co-ordinator with the Department of Rural Development. Sitting at our table behind us, we have Mr.

Don Mcintosh, who is the directo r of personnel, who is employed with the Department of Highways. We also have Mr. Ron Sidoryk here, who is the acting director of leasing contracts and expenditure controls and was the project manager for the Department of Government Services. The Acting Deputy Chairperson (Mr. Penner): Thank you. Are there questions? Ms. Wowchuk: Yes, I have several questions to ask, but I wanted to assure the Liberal critic that we also have made state men ts about the decen tralization prog ram that we have had concerns about.

That is behind us now; we are trying to look more forward and trying to get more information today as to where we are going. I just want him to be assured that we have also had those concerns about how people were being treated and in fact have indica ted that we will be asking some of those questions. I want to ask the minister; he has indic ated that ther e are 539 positions tha t have been decentralized and 13 4 to go.

I want to ask if we can be provided with a list-rather than going community by community, whether we can have a breakdown list-of where jobs have gone and each community that has received jobs, and which department they are with? Mr. Derkach: I would like to provide the member with a copy of the dec entralized positions. However, I do not have copies with me, but I can make them available for the member and would be happy to do so. Ms. Wowchuk: That is fine. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr.

Acting Deputy Chairperson, and for the minister, because of the limited time that we might have for this particular department, I am wondering, if there is information that is going to be provided for one opposition member, would it be given to both opposition members, so it prevents me from having to ask the same question. Mr. Derkach: Of course, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, when I said that we provide the information, it is to all members of the committee if they so wish the information. It is certainly to both opposition parties. [interjection) Yes, absolutely. It is understood . Mf.

Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): I just want to ask the mi nister how many positi on s are being decentralized to Selkirk. Mr. Derkach: We have complete and in place to date, in Selkirk, 11 positions, that have been decentralized to Selkirk: one from Agriculture; four

June 16 , 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 4786 from Government Services; five from Highways; one from Rural Development. Mr. Dewar: I remember, when I asked you this question in Question Period, you came back with 41 . Mr. Derkach: Forty-one? No. Either my hearing was wrong or yours was, because I do not know of any community that has received 41 positions in rural Manitoba, outside of the major centres, but if I said 41 , that was clearly an error. I think I even indic ated which departments staff were coming from when I responded, but certainly that can be researched in Hansard . If there is a mistake, I will correct that. *

(1925) Mr. Dewar: Well, I will be anxious to look. I am certain that is what you told me at the time. Are there any more being planned to move there? Mr. Derkach: At the present time, staff are looking at other potential candidates that can be relocated to Selkirk. I can identify nine potentials, but that again is just a ballpark figure and it could involve more. Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, all of this is still being worked on, and there are no definite conclusions reached on the further numbers who will be decentral ized . Ms.

Wowchuk: Can the minister tell us, is there a cost analysis done of each department that has been decentral ized ? Mr. Derkach: I hate to interrupt but, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I know where the 41 came from. If the member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar) could re-enter, I would certainly clarify it for him. Well, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, 11 Civil Service positions have been decentralized to Selkirk, that is true, but there have been 15 positions in Hydro, which is a Crown corporation, and also 15 from the Manitoba Telephone System which in total brings the grand total to 41 . Ms.

Wowchuk: Thank you, and I will relay that message to the member for Selkirk. Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I want to ask the minister, with each of the positions that have been decentralized, has a cost analysis been done? For example, can you tell us the cost in each area to set up an office? Is there a sheet that you can provide us? Can you provide us with information on what each of these decentralization projects cost and if it is possible to provide us with that information? Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Acting Deputy Chairperson, we had projected the cost of decentralization at $1 0 million when the announcement was made . To this point in time, about a third of that has been spent, if not less. When we calculate the leasing costs that were paid in the city as compared to what is being paid in the rural areas, there is a reduction there of about 30 percent or so, but it varies from community to community.

This is a very complicated process because sometimes when we vacate space in the city, another department may take that over, or in fact, because of the lease arrangements that we have with the particular landlord, it may require that we have to pay the lease costs for a period of time before we get out of the lease. So we do not have actual costs and the savings associated with the moves in each and every case.

However, presently, as we conclude this phase of decentralization, we will be putting those figures together, so that there will be some comparisons made of the costs of leasing in the rural areas compared to the city; also, what the actual savings may have been to governme nt, if any, for decentral izing. Now, it has to be under stood that there is a certain cost associated with a move.

In my former de partme nt, that of Educa tion, we ha d decentralized a fair number of positions, and a lot of those costs were fairly substantive because it means that in some rural communities, you have to hook up things like dedi cated lines. There could be relocation costs associated with moving the families or the people who are moving out to the rural areas, but all of that will be tabulated in the end, and we will have those figures finalized. We do not have that at this point in time. *

(1930) Ms. Wowchuk: Are departments doin g any tracking of costs versus what they were with those positions in the city versus what they are now? -and I think particularly of telephone costs, travel costs. Are those increasing? Is each department doing the tracking on that? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, we do not have that information here today, but that is still being worked on because the process of decentralization is not complete. But departments do track their incremental costs, if you like, to ensure that we will know in the end what the net savings or

4787 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA June 16 , 19 92 costs were in each category and for each department, but again, that information has not been compiled in total, so I cannot give you that figure right now. Ms. Wowchuk: I did not expect the information tonight. I just wanted to know whether departm ents were keeping track so that we would know, and at what point a cost-benefit analysis would be done. For us in the rural community we know that there is a benefit to have jobs in the rural community, but government is always concerned about spending and budget lines.

I guess what I want to know is, is a cost-benefit analysis going to be done on the whole decentralization program as a whole or department by department? H that is going to be done, would the minister be prepared to share it when it is done? I do not expect that tonight because it is not available yet. Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Acting Deputy Chairperson, we would be happy to share that kind of information once we have all of the specifics nailed down and available, but I can tell you that in a general sense where we see some benefit, besides the benefit to the local community, are in areas such as leasing costs where they are cheaper in rural Manitoba than they are in the city of Winnipeg. We see some definite cost benefits in that regard .

I guess if you want to look at the effectiveness of the program and what it has done to our province as a whole, and I mean looking at the benefit that it has created to rural communities, we know that there is a benefit there. Additi onally, when we had projected some $1 0 million of cost, we thought that we were fairly accurate in our projections, but we found that departments have worked very dil igently and have had the assis tance of mu nicipalities and co mm unities and so the cost has com e in substantially lower. As I indicated, it is $2.5 million as compared to a realistic projection of $10 million.

So I think all departments and all staff have worked very hard in coming up with a realistic figure. So we are very pleased with it to this point in time. However, in terms of the specific details, we do not have that information as yet. We will get it down the road as we wind down the 134 positions that are still to be decentralized, and then we can bring the whole package toge ther and le t mem bers of the Legislature know what the cost benefits have been. Ms.

Wowchuk: The minister has ind icated that he is quite pleased with the program the way it is going, and in fact I believe he said yesterday that they were possibly looking at other departments that could be decentralized. Is the minister prepared at this time to share which other departments he might be looking at decentrali zing? Mr. De rkac h: We ll, Mr. Ac ti ng Deputy Chairperson, it is not for me to go to a department and say, well, I am looking at decentralizing your particular branch or particular branch of your department.

What happens in the process is deputy ministers are always looking at ways to deliver programs more effectively. When a minister and deputy minister and staff identify a particular branch or component of a department that might be decentralized, they bring that forward. We are then charged with the responsibility of matching that particular initiative with a community, a community that will be able to handle that particular initiative and one where, either the service is brought closer to the people, or where the service can be delivered as effectively as it can out of its present location.

There have been instances. Yes, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I can point to the example, I call it the perfect example, of the correspondence branch. I can recall very vividly the verbal abuse I took from the Liberal Party specifically regarding the move of the correspondence branch and the fact that we were destroying the delivery of an effective and efficient correspondence branch to something that was going to utterly destroy the delivery . You see how the Liberals measure success. We had a 77 percent failure rate in all students who were taking correspondence courses.

To the Liberals this was a magnificent success story. We have moved the correspondence branch to Winkler. Ou r su ccess rate has gone up imm easurably. The tu rnarou nd time has decreased tremendously and the services are being delivered as effectively and efficiently as they were out of Winnipeg.

So to answer the member's question, regardless of where this service is located-it could be in Swan River-and if, in fact, that service can be delivered as effectively or more effectively from that point than it can right here from the city of Winnipeg, why would we not look at the pOtential of decentral izing that kind of an initiative? I can tell you also that when we talk about the correspondence branch, you can ask any people who use the service in rural Manitoba today, and I have had letters and comments. I have had letters from teachers to my office, telling us how effectively

June 16 , 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 4788 staff at the correspondence branch are handling their tasks. So, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, there are many success stories and we could go on and on. I can tell you, yes, to that question, that when there are initiatives that can be decentralized we will certainly be looking at them . Ms. Wowchuk: What the minister is saying-and I realize that he will not do It himself-it has to be done in con jun cti on with deputy min isters and departments. There are no new ones that have been identified now that the minister can share with us.

There are no departments that have identified new positions that can be decentral ized. Mr. Derkach: Well, none that I can speak about at this time, because if I were to name a particular departm ent or branch, I can tell you that there would be chaos in the department tomorrow, because it would be news breaking out of an Estimates process, so, no, there are none that I can speak about at the present time. Ms. Wowchuk: The minister just spoke about the correspondence branch. What I want to ask is then, I was asking about tracking and about cost benefits.

You are telling us this real success story that the correspondence branch is working much better than it was. Is there an analysis being done of the cost benefits, and is there anything being done to tell us why it has been more efficient out of Winkler than it was out of Winnipeg? Is that being studied, so that perhaps if It is working better out of another area, it can be used in different departments? Why is there a success story there? Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Because we like to get the job done through rural areas. Do you not want some in Swan? Ms.

Wowchuk: Of course, I do. Mr. Driedger: Then why are you questioning the process? Ms. Wowchuk: That is what we have Estimates for, is it not, Albert? The Acting Deputy Chairperson (Mr. Penner): Are there questions of ministers of each other? If we want that debate , I will entertain the debate ; if not, then I would suggest we ask the minister. * (194 0) Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Acting Deputy Chairperson, I am kind of humoured by the dialogue that is going on outside of the mikes here, but let me tell you that each department is looking at every unit that they have decentralized and doing a comparison of how that particular department or that particular initiative is functioning compared to what it functioned like in its old form.

So, although I cannot tell you about the record in each and every case, they are keeping a record and they are looking at how effectively each area is being carried out, and in those cases where there may be some problems I am sure that they will be addressed to ensure that we can deliver the services effectively. I am not going to sit here and say that 1 00 percent of every dece ntra liz ed position or every decentralized initiative will work perfectly.

I mean, that is hoping for a perfect world, but I can tell you that in a general sense the success rate, if you measure it by comparison to what has been done in other jurisdictions, in Manitoba has been splendid, and the reason that it has been splendid I think is because there has been co-operation among departm ents, there has been co-operation between the Civil Service and departments, there has been co-operation with the MGEA and governm�nt.

I think all of those aspects coming together and working together towards a common goal has certainly provided a success story in Manitoba that all of us should be proud of, because whether you represent Swan River or Dauphin or whichever area of this province, decentralization has worked well and it certainly has been a boost to our communities. In a general sense, it has been a boost to the province because a healthy rural environment and a healthy rural economy certainly provides for a much healthier province than just having one healthy centre and the rest being impoverished.

So I think it has been a success story for all of us. Ms. Wowchuk: I was not being critical when I was asking that question. I was asking It in sincerity, if it was being tracked and if there were things that could be learned from it for future projects, because if one is successful and another one is not, why is it not? That is basically what I am asking, whether it is being monitored to a degree so that we can Jearn from it. That is what I was looking for.

Another issue that was raised yesterday at the municipal convention at McCreary that we were both at was the moving of jobs from one community to another, and in particular there was concern about a water resources job that went from Dauphin to Roblin and jobs that went from Dauphin to Minnedosa in a different departme nt-was it

4789 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA June 16 , 19 92 Agriculture department? What I would like to know: Are those jobs counted as decentralization jobs when they are going from one rural community to another because if they are, in reality that is not decentraliza tion. That is moving from one rural community to another. So I would like to have some clarification as to whether those jobs from one rural community to another are counted in the total of dece ntralized jobs. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, in the province as a whole there have not been very many of those kinds of situations occurring.

What has happened is departments have been charged with the responsibility of identifying services that could be delivered from areas within the province more effectively than they could be from the present location. I would say that in 99 percent of the cases, that has been from Winnipeg to rural Manitoba. There are a couple of examples, and I think maybe one of those is the one identified by the member, where there has been a move from one community to another, and I guess the example that the member uses is the one from Dauphin to Roblin. There was also another move from Roblin to Virden, I believe.

Now those numbers would be counted in the whole total of decentralization, but in an overall scheme of things that has only been two or three positions, so it has not been major. The other question that was asked of McCreary was, of course, the jobs that have been lost in the province as a result of reorganization of government and downsizing and that sort of thing, and I would have to indi cate that is not counted as part of decentraliz ation because that would have occurred whether there was a decentralization initiative or not. So it is outside the scope of decentralization . Ms.

Wowchuk: There were a certain number of jobs that were targeted for decentralization, then eliminated, but are not in the figures, in the total number of decentralized positions. Mr. Derkach: Yes, there were 44 positions that came into that category. Ms. Wowchuk: The minister raised another point that was raised at that meeting in McCreary yesterday, and it is something that we raised in the House, and that is the concern we have with the ratio of civil servant positions in rural Manitoba versus city centres.

We have a government that is taking credit for moving job s out to rural Man itoba through decentralization but then cutting many jobs in the rural community, and in reality the proportion of government jobs in rural Manitoba has decreased rather than increased . There are fewer civil servant jobs in rural Man itoba now than ther e was before decentralizati on. No, I am sorry; I am not getting it right. The proportion of jobs in rural Manitoba has gone down in civil servants versus in the urban centre, and I would like the minister to comment on that. Mr.

Derkach: I am advised that overall there has been a decrease of 1 ,200 in government-over the last two years, is it? The proportion has not been greater in rural Manitoba than it has in urban Manitoba. When these kinds of steps have to be taken, one does not target a particular area for decreasing jobs in. Rather, one looks at the services that are being delivered and how we can better reorganize government to deliver services. Then the process takes place from there.

I do not have the figures specifically because it is not part of decent ralization, as to the exact proportion of the numbers in Winnipeg as compared to rural Manitoba, but I am advised that it has not been an unfair balance, If you like. Ms. Wowchuk: I was just looking through my notes here and, unfortunately, have not got the sheet of paper with me, but I would be happy to share that with the minister. It is a sheet that indicates that there are less govern ment positions in rural Manitoba in proportion to what is in the city, and we find that disturbing.

I will give that to the minister tomorrow, if I can, that shows that there are less jobs in civil servant positions. I find that flies in the face of decentralization because, on one hand, government is saying they want to bring services closer to the people and increa se th eir reve nue and help the rural communities, and then we have numbers that show that there are less civil servant positions.

In fact, I guess when we looked at the serious cuts that we had two budgets ago, many of the jobs that were cut were in Natural Resou rces and, I belie ve , High ways-! do not want to get the wrong department here-and those were rural jobs. If the minister would like to see those papers, I would be glad to share with him, and then perhaps he can comment on that later.

June 16 , 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 4790 Mr. Derkach: I would be happy to see that stats sheet and the source of it as well, but I can tell you that the impact would have been fairly dramatic for the province if we had not embar ked on a decentralization initiative. Decentralization was not embarked on just for pure political reasons, and I think the member unders tands that. Now, the member for Inkster (Mr.

Lamoureux) is questioning the motive here, but I would have to ask him to venture out into rural Manitoba and ask the rural Manitobans whether the motive was really political because they have a different view of it. It is an economic reality out there. That is why we embarked on the initiative. It was to provide rural Manitoba in a time of recession-the member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk) knows the struggle that we are undergoing in rural Manitoba just to maintain our services in our small communities and the lifestyles that we have, not to enhance them. *

(1950) It is regrettable that we had to downsiz e government, but the treasury was not big enough to sustain the kinds of Civil Service positions that we had in government. We did not want to start cutting into the tax bite again. So there were restricted alternatives that we could embark on. I can tell you that the impact would have been far more dramatic had we not embarked on decentraliza tion. So I think, as a net, it has been positive to rural Manitoba. Down the road, perhaps, we can continue to build on this initiative. The Acting Deputy Chairperson (Mr.

Penner): I am going to ask whether the members around the table are hearing the same thing I am hearing. We operate on our farm a citizens' band rad io. There are times when we either cross-channel or we have a phenomenon that is called "skip." I think that I am hearing a fairly significant amount of "skip" around this table at this time. I am wondering whether we can turn down the squelch just a wee bit. If we could do that, then we might continue the discussion around the table. Ms. Wowchuk: The minister has ind icated that this effort has been of benefit to some parts of the province. Indeed, it has.

Unfortunately, there are many parts of the province that have not benefitted from it. The area that I represent, Swan River constituency, is one of those areas. I believe, if I am accurate, there were two positions decentralized to Swan River. In the whole scheme of things, that is a very low number. If it is more than two, I would be happy to be corrected. I would like to ask the minister if there are any plans to decentralize any positions to the Swan River area in the near future? Mr.

Derkach: Presently, there are four positions decentralized to Swan River, plus one in a Crown corporation, I think it is Hydro . We have three in Natural Resources, and one with CEDF, and one Hydro. But, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, let me say that when we looked at communities that we were decentralizing positions to, we looked at the number of Civil Service positions that were present in those communities when we began the initiative.

We find that there are some communities which had benefitted from the decentralization of government jobs even though there was not a decentralization initiative, and benefitted substantially to their credit. When we look at a-{inte�ection] Well, but it has been going on, I guess, In a different manner. Let me put it that way. Because you look at Swan River-before the decentral ization initiative, they had 200 Civil Service positions existing in a community with 3,800 people. An Honourable Member: How many? Mr. Derkach: 200. Now, that is both federal and provincial.

Therefore, by ad ding another four, that brings it over 200. So, we try, as best we can, to create some form of balance in communities. In some communities, one, either Crown corporation job or Civil Service job, is of benefit to that community. We have not been able to satisfy everybody. I can acknowledge that. Down the road, perhaps, we will continue to work at it. Indeed, together, I am sure that we co-operatively can address many of the other initiatives. Ms. Wowchuk: Just one more comment on that one.

The minister said that there is a large number of civil servants in Swan River at the present time and he would have the figures and they are accurate. However, he has to remember that Swan River serves a very large area. I believe one of the criteria that the government was looking at is the rate of unemployment in those particular areas. If he would look at the area that Swan River serves and the surrounding area, it is indeed an area of high unemployment and lack of

4791 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA June 16 , 19 92 jobs. I guess one of-en area that has been let down by the government, in one sense, because we, the people of the area, were promised a lot of jobs through Repap. In fact, the people of Swan River were told that is why they did not get decentralized jobs. Nothing was said about the high number of civil servants in the area. We were told that we did not need decentralized jobs there because we were going to get all the jobs from Repap. Well, the jobs from Repap have not materialized .

The minister says four, I question the CEDF because I think that was there bef ore decentralizat ion, but I will not argue about that one. I would encourage the minister when he is looking at further positions to decentr alize, to look at those areas of high unemployment, and in particular I would encourage him to look at Swan River, to look at Dauphin that was promised many positions but got very few. He explained that yesterday that that was perhaps coming.

I would hope that he would keep in mind those parts of the province that have not benefited from decentralization , and if he is considering further, look at bringing some of the services that might be of benefit to that area closer to the people. Mr.

Derkach: It is true that when we made the announcement about decentralization one of the factors, of course, taken into account was the fact that in a community like Swan River we had embarked on an agreement with Repap that would give a fair level of employment to people in the Swan River area, but the member knows full well what has happened in the pulp and paper industry. Indeed the environmental aspect of the wood industry has had an effect on the numbers of jobs that can be identified and can be created.

Down the road , I think there is still reason to be optimistic about what is going to happen and the effect Repap will have on that community, but the member should und erstand that none of this has been stalled by our government, that indeed it is the circumstances and going through the processes that have to be gone through. The economy in the pulp and paper indus try has certainly been one that has taken a turn that no one expected at the time and so this has had some impact.

Hopefully that will be regained and Swan River will be-as my area because I can say the Roblin area has been affected in the same way that Swan River has and regrettably to the detriment of our communities, but hopefully down the road that will come. The member for Swan River also asked the question about Dauphin. Once again, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, we looked at Dauphin and certainly identified positions for Dauphin, but again, if you take a look at the total number of Civil Service positions in Dauphin, it numbers 757,

whereas there are other communities that have similar sizes or close to that size who have just a very, very minute fraction of Civil Service jobs in those areas. So we have to try and create a balance to make sure that we treat communities as fairly as possible. It does not mean that we will not be looking at Dauphin. We had identified an initiative for Dauphin. Fortunately, I guess, as we started going through these branches we found that there was an important initiative to be embarked on in Vital Stati stics and that was to computerize their systems. That will take another year.

Once that has been completed then a decision will be made as to where and what will happen to Vital Statistics at that time, but right now they are going through a process that has to be gone through, because it would not make any sense to decentralize it and try to do the computerization. •

(2000) Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I want to deal with the three concerns that I alluded to in my opening remarks. The first one in terms of the manner in which people, civil servants, were being treated. The minister made reference that one of the objectives of this government was to treat the individuals in a first-class way, if you like.

I am wondering if the minister can tell how many of those individuals who were decentralized into the rural communities, that accepted those positions and actually made the move into rural Manitoba as compared to those who accepted the position in rural Manitoba, but did not actually move into the rural communities. Mr. Derkach: I listened to the opening remarks of the member for In kster (Mr. Lamoureux). He criticized the official opposition for being too positive about decentraliz ation in the member's opening remarks, and he came on very negatively.

If you listen to his comments, he talks about the fact that we have treated the Civil Service shabbily, that we have not dealt fairly with employees, that in fact we

June 16 , 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 4792 have embarked on this without consultation, without giving any consideration to the impact that this was going to have on people's lives. Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I do not know where the member has been for the last two years, because indeed if he is just here to put rhetoric on the table regardless of whether it is fair, true or otherwise, then I really have to question his integrity, especially in the position that he holds in his caucus.

I have to tell you that deputy ministers from every department -right from the very beginning the objectives were set, that we wanted to make sure that people would be treated fairly. This was an objective of our government, more importantly a very strong objective of the Premier (Mr. Filmon). I think deputy ministers went out and met with all of their affected groups. They met with the Civil Service to explain the process. We put a process in place that said that you had to have 90 days' notice before you would be decentralized. There were endless meetings held.

The Minister of Rural Development at that time, who was yourself, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, met with every single municipality,! believe. One or two may have been missed, but my under standing was that every single municipality and town council was met with to discuss the decentralization initiative and to bring back information as to how we could approach it in a more timely and a better way.

In terms of the Civil Service Commission, they had put together a comprehensive package for the MGEA and for all the civil servants to make sure that they under stood how we were going to embark on the process, and that the process would be fair, that employees would be treated fairly through the process and that we would make every conceivable effort to find employees an alternative where they could not relocate, because perhaps another family member was tied to a different position in the city.

We offered training programs, retraining programs to those Civil Service em ployees who needed retraining from one job to another. I can tell you from my experiences in dealing with the deputy ministers that I had dealt with in my portfolio as Education minister and here, that they were very, very sensitive to the needs of the employees who were decentral ized . I can tell you that the dir ector of decent ralization who is at the table now was very sensitive and dealt very seriously with the impact that this was having on people's lives. Costs of moving were paid for.

We also assisted in the sale of homes where civil servants were having difficulty in moving homes, so in other words we tried everything possible to make sure that it was a positive experience for everybody. Now, I am not going to say we never made any mistakes, because certainly we are all human and we all make mistakes no matter what we embark on. But when you take a look at the fact that after all of this there were only seven layoffs.

I am sorry the member is getting a little agitated by my long answer, and I am not trying to be extraordinarily long, but I think it is important to put this information on the record. There have been seven layoffs. The success rate is 78 percent. I believe that really spells out the kind of success it has been, and I am not taking the credit for it. I think all of us share in the benefit of this, because it has really meant that this has been carried out to the benefit of our province as a whole. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr.

Acting Deputy Chairperson, I guess I had somewhat anticipated that we would be getting into Heritage this evening, because there are a number of questions that we want to ask. We were feeling that there might be a will to keep the answers brief so we can get a number questions, more so, onto the record. That is the reason why. It was not to imply to the minister that there was no interest.

But having said that, the question that I asked the minister he did not answer, and that was, how many of the individuals that accepted the jobs in rural Manitoba actually moved into rural Manitoba as opposed to commuted back from the city of Winnipeg to those positions? While they might be looking for that particular number, I want to add, too-because the minister alluded to my opening remarks. My opening remarks were based on the minister's opening remarks where the minister was quite content on saying, everyth ing is wond erfu l, that the government is doing a 1 00 percent, fantastic, super job.

We should be commended and patted on our backs. This is what the minister tried to say at the beginning of the Estimates here. What I said was that, well, maybe that is not necessarily the case. Can the minister, after he answers that specific question, tell me how much of that consulting was done prior to the Premier (Mr. Filmon) in Brandon, back in I believe it was December of 1989, made the announcement? When I recall the announcement being made,

4793 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA June 16 , 19 92 representations that we had from the MGEA, which represe nts the Civil Service and so forth, I understood did not even know about it, had no idea in terms of what positions were going to be moved out to which areas or anything of this nature. You have a Civil Service of thousands of individuals that are told that significant numb ers, significant percentages are going to be decentralized. Well, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I think there would a good significant number of those people saying, well, is It going to be me? Who is It going to be?

The reason why they ma de tha t announcement is because he had a platform in which there were a number of individuals that he thought he could please. That is the reason why the announcement was made then. No doubt there was consultation afterwards, and I do not question that because the former minister-and I have seen him sit through the endless committee meetings dealing with bills and the sinc erity that he approached things-1 do not question that there was consultation afterwards.

But originally when the announcement was made, there were a lot of civil servants that had absolutely no idea; is it me that is going to be moved? The department heads, I do not know if they were included or not. But having said that, the minister does not necessarily have to address that, and I would just go right to the specific questions of the commuters. The Acting Deputy Chairperson (Mr. Penner): Before I ask the minister to respond, I want to ind icate as Chair of the comm ittee that the honourable member for Inkster (Mr.

Lamoureux) is absolutely correct, that there was a gentleperson's agreement in the House this afternoon that we would consider Decentralization until roughly about eight o'clock. We would then proceed back to Culture, Heritage and Citizenship. That, of course, is still, if It would be the will of the committee, the plan. I will ask now the minister to respond to the question. Mr. Derkach: We do not have a record of how many people are commuting as compared to how many have moved out to the rural areas.

I suppose in the communities surrounding Winnipeg It is conceivable that some may be commuting, but I do not see that as possible in places like Dauphin and Swan River and so forth. So we do not have that information. With regard to the second part of the issue that you addressed, I would just like to say that when the policy announcement was made, at the same time Mr. Irving from the Civil Service Commission, I believe, had met simu ltaneously to give that kind of information to the MGEA, as I understand it. But, again, a policy statement can be made and then you embark on the process of how you carry It out.

That is where the consultation comes in. •

(2010) Now, I know it would be awfully nice to get out and start consulting first on issues like that; but, as soon as you do th at, you under stand tha t the announcement then is not really an announcement because you have already made It when you start your consultation process. So I think, in fairness, that there was a lot of thought put into how we embark on decentralization. Indeed, the minister at that time, the Premier (Mr.

Filmon), I am sure had many days of agony in terms of how you embark on this without inflaming a lot of debate in the Civil Service and how you calm the waters after the announcement is made, but I think we have lived through that. We have learned some things. Indeed, we have learned, I feel, a lot more than some of our neighbours to the west of us who tried this initiative and where It failed. Mr. Lamoureux: I agree with the minister in a sense that next door it has not worked very well at all, and he has done a better job, this government has done a better job, than the province west of us.

But I would suggest that there is also another way, and that is that you do not need to make a big splash, that there are other ways, if you are not Interested in playing the politics of It, in which you can enter into the water gradually so that the waves that are being made are somewhat minimal.

Having said that, what I would ask-because I do want to get into Heritage, as th ere was a gentlemen's agreement on it-is for the minister if he could provide the opposition parties with some of the background leasing information in terms of offices for the decentralization positions, where there were leases and where there were new structures needed to be built, as I said, with regard to what I believe the member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk) made reference to in terms of the positions that actually have been decentralized. Thank you.

June 16 , 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 4794 Mr. Derkach: We have the project manager with us, and he is taking note of that. Indeed, when we have that information put together, we will provide it for the opposition members. Ms. Wowchuk: I just have one more comment before we are prepared to pass this. The member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) raised the fact that the families did face a lot of difficulty and there was a time when there was a lot of uncertainty among the civil servants about where they were going to be going and who was going to be going. That did cause some problems.

Those problems are behind. I hope that, when the minister and the department or any department looks at future decentralization, they do consider the people and have thorough consultation with those people in charge of the department, that moves not be made for political reasons or as political announcements. The minister indicated that, I believe he was implying that, Dauphin and Swan River had a certain amount of decentralization that was going on before the announcement. I think that is what the member for Inkster was implying as well, that you can have decentralization without a big splash, as happened.

If there are things that can be moved, look where the services have to go and do it, not for political reasons, but to get the jobs to the rural commu nity, where it will bring services closer to the people. Looking at next door, it is unfortunate that it has gone the way it has in Saskatchewan. Maybe that is one of the reasons why it has not been successful because that decision was also made for political reasons.

The announcement came before the election without very much planning, and the government lost and that plan now has to go back to the drawing board and hopefully eventually there will be jobs moved out to rural Saskatchewan as well. I think what we see in that message is that you do not do these things just for political benefit; you do it if you are sincere about bringing services closer to the people, and I look forward to hearing what future plans this government has and what this minister has for bringing services closer to the people. Thank you. Mr. Derk ach: Mr.

Acting Deputy Chairperson, I guess I can only rebut by saying that we did not look at this as a political incentive. The member says it appeared that way, but I can tell you, if you look at what her former administration did in moving jobs to certain locations in the province, that was political, and you can identify. I mean, you do not have to be a physicist or a sociologist to be able to say, well, why is the Civil Service so high in this particular community and who represented that community?

We are trying to get away from that, and certainly you know when you look at the southern belt and you look at communi ties that we have decentralized too, they have not always been the commu nities that we represent. Indeed, we have tried to create a balance, because every commu nity in this province is important and we have to treat it that way. Down the road we will continue to look at positive ways that we can im pact on all commu nities in this province. Some of the smaller ones have not received the benefit of decentralization, but indeed they need to be considered if there is any possibility as well .

My role in decentralization is going to be to accommodate, as much as we can, moves to the communities that we have made commitments to, and then beyond that to carry out our duties as diligently as we possibly can. Does there have to be a big splash about dece ntrali zati on? Our com mu nities want the splash. They want to be noticed, and 'they want to say, hooray, we have got a decentralization office that is opening. That is why we are having grand openings in these communities, and I invite the members of the opposition parties to join us at these openings because they are important.

For that reason I have asked staff to make sure, when we have an opening -there is one on Friday-that members of the opposition be invited and especially their Leaders, because I think it is important for all of us as legislative members to acknowledge that we support the rejuvenation and the revitalization of rural Manitoba. Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, just to conclude quickly. I would just like to say thank you to the members for their questions, but very importantly I would like to thank staff who have worked on decentralization over the past two years. They have been from various departments.

We have at our table the director of Decentralization, Mr. Syd Reimer, who has spent endless hours not only working on decentralization but indeed visiting each and every community where there is any potential to locate a decentralization office. He has met with countless municipalities around the province trying to accommodate in the best way possible.

4795 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA June 16 , 19 92 Also, people who are from other departments such as the project manager, Mr. Ron Sidoryk, whos e job has been to look after the accommodations, and he has done a splendid job. Mr. Don Mcintosh, the director of Personnel from the Department of Highways has certainly done a commendable job in making sure that the people needs are looked after and the personnel needs are looked after in a respectful and accommodating way. So to those people I think we owe our vote of gratitude. Thank you, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, and I have no more comments. Mr.

Bob Rose (Turtle Mountain): Mr. Acting Deputy Chair person, jus t a couple of brief comments in response to the conversation that has been going on in the last few moments. As you know, I was not a member of the government when the decentralization program was announced, and I certainly congratulate the people who were responsible and the many people who put the program in place. I could not help but respond to the suggestion that the original announcement was simply politically motivated, if I understood that correctly. I think the member for Swan River (Ms.

Wowchuk) would understand, first of all, that there are any number of families in rural Manitoba and we are very concerned about their futures, and did not know where they might be going in the future, considering the economy. The attitude is extremely important and an announcement like that can create a feeling of optimism rather than pessimism. I think it is a worthwhile announcement to make. I suggest that the reason for the announcement to be made like that was based on that approach rather than a strictly political one. *

(2020) I think that the attitude in rural Manitoba is improving in the last couple of years, and I do not think that can be laid entirely at the door of the government. There are a number of things, the agricu ltural economy is im provi ng, and the decentralization programs has flowed into place, and I feel that the attitude in rural Manitoba is better than it was two or three years ago. Any time we can have a feeling of optimism in the country as opposed to pessimism, I think it is something we need to promote. The AcUng Deputy Chairperson (Mr. Penner): Item 1. Decentralization $2,000,00();>ass.

Resolution 131 : RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $2,000,000 for Decentralization for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 19 93;>a ss. This comple tes the Esti mates for Decentralization. The next set of Estimates that will be considered for this

section of the Committee of Supply are the Estimates for Culture, Heritage and Citizenship. Shall we briefly recess to allow the minister and the critics the opportunity to prepare for the commencement of the next set of Estimates? Agreed? Agreed. *** The committee took recess at 8:21 p.m. After Recess The committee resumed at 8:24 p.m. CULTURE, HERITAGE AND CITIZENSHIP The Acting Deputy Chairperson (Mr. Jack Penner): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. The committee will be resuming the consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship. When the committee last sat, it had been considering item 2. (

a) Executive Adm inistrati on:

(1) Salaries $228 ,000 on page 31. Shall the item pass? Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): Last evening, I indicated that I would attempt to get information on a question that was asked by the member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen) on whether there had been an increase in the number of laundromats renting and in some cases exhibiting videos. I am advised by the Rim Classification Board that as at April 19 92 there were fiVe laundromats which had taken out video retailer licences. In April 199 1 , there were only two that were licensed.

These figures do include the laundromat that was mentioned in last year's Estimates. I also indicated last evening that any retailer which rents, sells, or exhibits videos to the public requires a licence from the Manitoba Rim Classification Board, and retailers are required to deny access to minors from renting or viewing any video with an age-restricted classification.

June 16 , 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 4796 Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Yes, actually I did want to start out with laundromats, because I noticed a little snickering around the room when I suggested that laundromats were an issue. I wanted to make sure that the point that I was making was not misunderstood.

I think that an innovative department would say we have got an audience there; we have a captive audience in laundromats for all sorts of cultural activities, whether it is photographic exhibits or whether it is certain types of videos or whatever, in the same way that people used to say, bring the culture to the shopping mall, make sure it is where the people are. Well, it is another opportunity, and if some lau ndromat operators are interested in that, then I would think there would be an opportunity for somebody to pick up on that.

The other concern is obviously that children are not exposed to things that in this society we do not believe that they should be. I wanted to make both of those points and thank you for the information. I suppose in that context I am sorry they have declined. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, maybe I went in the wrong order, but there were two laundromats licensed last year; there are five licensed this year. Ms. Friesen: Good, it is a trend. The Acting Deputy Chairperson (Mr. Penner): Item 2.(a)(1 ) Salaries $228,000. Shall the item pass? Ms. Friesen: No. Wait a minute. Which line are we on?

We have not passed anything yet as far as I am concerned. The Acting Deputy Chairperson (Mr. Penner): Item 2.(a)(1 ). Ms. Friesen: I am still on 2.(a)(1 ). The Acting Deputy Chairperson (Mr. Penner): We are still on 2.(a)(1 ). We did not pass it. Ms. Friesen: Good. Okay. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Ink ster) : Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I was just going to ask just for clarification given because of what occurred last night. The line in which the minister would okay questioning for the Heritage Federation is which line? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr.

Acting Deputy Chairperson, the Heritage Federation does indeed have its own line. It falls under Lotteries Funded Programs and it is 7.(m). Ms. Friesen: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I think at the end of last time we were actually talking about the loss of $2 million and the 29 staff years in this

section of the department. I was trying to understand from the minister's perspective what losses this had incurred in service to the public. I think it must be very difficult to claim that you can lose 29 staff years and not have chosen to reduce certain areas of service. It seemed to me from my earlier questioning of what this department is not doing is any kind of research and strategic planning in the arts, an area that I was suggesting is likely only to be done by government in this province since individual organizations do not have the capabilities and we do not have an independent public policy unit.

So I am wondering, did the minister make that choice? Was that a specific choice to say, look, we are going to concentrate on services to clients, as they are called here or citizens, and we are going to forego the research because that is a choice that we have to make given the "difficult economic times?" Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I would just like to correct for the record the staff year decrease. It is not 29. It was 19 .

In fact, actual expenditures in the department from 1 988-89 which were $41 .6 million rounded off, in this year's Estimates the total budget line for the Department of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship is $58 million. I think where you might find the increase occurring is In Lotteries Funded Programs. So there has been an increase in expenditures. •

(2030) Yes, there was a reduction of 19 staff years. We have looked internally throughout government at ways in which we can more effectively utilize the staff resources that are available to provide the same amount or increased programming. There has been increased programming and changes in programming. We talk about policy and research. I have been informed that before our administration took over as government, there was not that kind of policy or research being done. We are basically a granting department. We provide grants in many numbers of areas. It is not a department that does a lot of research or policy. It is a department that looks at

4797 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA June 16 , 19 92 empowering the community and the community, in many instances, determines the needs that exist. We try to structure our programs and our grant guidelines based on what the community wants. In fact, most of the application forms through the department look at what skills are being developed as a result of the project that grant money is being applied for and the audience participation. So all of those things are factored into the priorities of funding for the department, and we will continue along that path.

You know, I suppose when it comes to making a choice of support for communities that have legitimate needs based on their analysis of what will work in their communities, what kinds of activities their commu nities should undertake, I believe I would prefer to put my money-or our money, the taxpayers' money-back into the community doing very worthwhile projects and programming, based on an awful lot of volunteers within the community who do make major commitments, whether they sit on boards or are actively involved in other ways. They do a lot of fundraising.

We deal with the volunteer component throughout Manitoba in a very major way. I think they believe that the dollars they receive in grants are dollars that are put to good use, to enhance community life. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I agree with the minister that it has become a granting department, and that is pretty well all it does. That is really what I am trying to get at. I also agree with the minister that there was not much planning or research done in years gone by, and that was true I think of the previous administration.

It is true of most areas, I think, of cultural planning, whether you look in the United States or you look elsewhere, for example at the federal government, most of the studies tha t have been done in aud ien ce participation, in sponsorship, in the economy, the economic impacts of cultural spending and the changing aid structure in its relationship to cultural spending, most of those do not really begin until about '85. Some of the things that they do show-and I do not think we can adapt all of them to Manitoba, but some of them I think are important.

One of the things, for example, is that if you look at the American studies, wha t they sho w is tha t 63 percent of the population-this is on a study I think from about '87 or '88-have never been to a li ve cu ltur al performance, whether it is art or dance or country music or pop music or anything, 63 percent have never been. It is those kinds of issues which I think only either a public policy institute or a government department can begin to study. The minister says she wants to tum the money back to the com muni ties. Yes, but which community? Is it going to the right communities?

Is it going to com muni ties that have no other alternatives? Is it going to communities which are going to, in the long run, return the monies into artistic or cultural endeavours?

For example, one of the other studies that you could find from the United States again-and the parallels are not exact, but you find that people who donate to the arts are people who have had an active interest, either through parents or through schools, but a participation in their own individual person early in childhood, usually somewhere around the ages of 11 or 12 years old, and those are the people who, in the long run, are going to contribute to the arts.

So in a province where you have a diminishing business sector, you have an aging population, you have a government with fewer and fewer resources, it seems to me that one of the best places this department could put its money is where no other agency can do this activity, and that is into some research and some planning. Maybe it can be done on a regional basis. Maybe it can be done with other provinces. I think the minister stated very clearly, this is a granting department, but I think it could be something else. Does the minister have some response to that? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr.

Acting Deputy Chairperson, it is interesting to hear what some of the surveys in the States have done. If I can just indicate the highlights from the Consumer Arts Profile study that has been undertaken, which are that two-thirds of Canadians over the age of 16 attended an arts performance in the last six months. It also indicated a huge interest in the performing arts. Almost thr-ee-quarters of those polled said their main reason for not going more was expense.

However, although Manitobans surveyed rated the ticket prices as an important decision-making factor, 53 percent said they were slightly less likely than Canadians elsewhere to say that ticket prices are too high. The general public surveyed in Manitoba

June 16 , 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 4798 did indicate that they paid less for a ticket than the national average, and Winnipeggers surveyed indicated they would be willing to pay $2 to $4 more for a ticket to the performing arts. Those are all highlights of the study that was done. That might indicate a little better statistics than what I think were indicated in the study that was done in the United States. We, I guess, are fortunate in Manitoba to have the opportunity to have the excellence, as I said last evening, and the quality of our cultural activities.

I still believe, and it might be a philosophical difference, that, in fact, we are here to provide some leader ship, yes, but in deed I believe the communities throughout Manitoba know best in many instances what the demographics are, what might interest and attract people. If you have people interested in certain activities, we certainly see that arts councils thrive in many rural communities where there is a major commitment. I guess the one issue that we could talk about is education.

I think comments that were made earlier that maybe, if there were more exposure to the arts through education, people would more likely have an appreciation and understanding and possibly a desire to attend different cultural activities. I think that is something that is a long-term objective. It is not something that can happen overnight. I think our arts in the schools program is probably one of the best across the country.

But when you look at what is happening around us, there have been some articles just in the newspaper recently, talking about what has happened in Ontario under an NDP administration in the last budget. The headlines say, NDP's cultural cuts may mean job losses. About $6 million in cuts to Ontario culture by the cash-strapped NDP government could lead to job losses at TV Ontario, art galleries and museums, Culture minister Karen Haslam said.

The Toronto-based Art Gallery of Ontario, which employs 280 people, responded by saying it faces massive staff layoffs and shorter hours to cope with the government's belt tightening. TV Ontario's funding was trimmed 2.6 percent or about $1 .6 million. As well, funding was reduced by 1 percent for the McMichael Canadian Art Collection, the Ontario Arts Council, Ontario Science Centre, Ontario Heritage Foundation, the Royal Botanical Gardens and the Royal Ontario Museum.

So I think, without being extremely critical about what is happening, in Manitoba we have not made major reductions to any of our cultural institutions. We have maintained our funding. We have, in fact, streamlined the bureaucracy within government, and we do run a very lean department. I believe that we accomplish a lot, and we have a thriving arts community, so more bureaucracy and more studies do not necessarily mean that we are going to have better cultural institutions or better opportunities for Manitobans to participate.

We see, as I said, what is happening in Ontario, and those reductions will have major impacts, I am sure, on cultural activity. *

(2040) The Acting Deputy Chairperson (Mr. Penner): Madam Minister, committee members, I indicated before that we had a little something that we used on the farm; it was called a citizens' band radio. Periodically, on those citizens' band radios, we have a phenomena called "skip" where interference rose in from the outside. I detect that "skip" present in this room again, and I was wondering whether we could turn the squelch button down just a wee bit so that we can continue on with the discussion around this table. Ms. Friesen: Mr.

Acting Deputy Chairperson, I had hoped we would not get into this kind of discussion, because, I mean, we could bring up the loss of the Gas Station Theatre; we could bring up the loss of the Warehouse Theatre. We could bring up the 20 percent cuts to most arts organizations in this province that were made by this government last year. There really is no need for that kind of discussion. We discussed it last time. The minister wants to talk about the Ontario budget. Well, she can talk about some of the cuts that are made.

I assume that some of those cuts are based upon research, that the McMichael Collection, for exam pie, can survive with a 1 percent cut, because it has a very extensive list of donors, some of whom are the wealthiest people in this country. In return, the people of Ontario, the aboriginal people of Ontario, will be getting their own library system, something which these people in Manitoba are very far distanced from. We can go on exchanging that. We can look at the millions of dollars that the government of British Columbia is going to put into the film industry, based upon the research that they

4799 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA June 16 , 19 92 have done into the attractions of that location and the existing basis of cultural industries and cultural training that they have been doing in British Columbia under both the Social Credit government and now under the New Democratic government, that they have made a strategic decision based upon research and planning in their department.

What I was trying to do was to start out with a different type of discussion with this minister and to suggest that there were some areas for other types of activity, for some research, for some planning, for a role that the free market economy which this government is so devoted to, cannot and will not play. There is a role for government in that. The minister chose to get into a discussion of different provincial planning systems. Well, we can continue on that line if she wants, but there does not seem to be much purpose. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr.

Acting Deputy Chairperson, I do not think that I was doing it in a terribly nasty or negative way when I indicated that things are happening across the country, even under NDP administrations. I have great difficulty in thinking that a 1 percent across-the-board cut to the Arts Council and the Ontario Science Centre and the Heritage Foundation and the museums in Ontario were researched and well thought-out and well planned. The art gallery indicates in another

article that 200 jobs at the art gallery will be threatened as a result of budget reductions. So things are tough. I do notthink that I was trying to single out any one province specifically. It just happens to be the one next door to us that has articles that we have seen in the news media that indicate that those things happen. I think the member for Wolseley has given this government some credit for our increased support for film.

I know B.C. has a larger film industry, and they have probably made major increases, but we have an additional $400,000 or more that we have added through our provincial budget to the film industry in Manitoba. We believe that there are economic impacts that do occur in the areas where film crews are working and throughout the economy. It is a real boost to our economy, and a lot of the money that we provide in the film industry for our cultural industries comes back to Manitoba in the way of taxes. So we are pleased and we are very proud of what the film Industry does.

We did not just put money into film because we thought it was a good thing to do. We knew what the economic impacts were going to be. As a result of that, we were able to increase funding. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, well, this is a department which claims that it maintains awareness of provincial, national and international trends in the developments within each discipline. Yet you can only come up with one newspaper clipping on what other provinces are doing. This is after an overnight break.

That does not seem to me like very much of an awareness of national trends, let alone international trends. So it seems very applicable to this particular department. Could the minister tell us what international trends this department is researching? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr.

Acting Deputy Chairperson, I have indicated already, and lots of research and study and whatever might be all right for academics, but I will tell you in a climate where financial resources and taxpayers' dollars have to go into the most worthwhile projects and programs throughout the province and when Manitobans tell us clearly that health care is their No. 1 priority, that they want social services and education funding maintained and enhanced, and when we have a limited number of dollars, and when we look at where we want to prioritize those dollars going in the Department of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship-we have looked at areas where we believe that we can enhance our programming so that, in fact, Manitobans can benefit.

H we can receive some economic benefit from cultural Industries, and that it Is a proven fact, and we know what Manitobans are doing and the ability that they have to run a very successful industry, which is a cultural industry, which does impact very positively on our province, that is one of the areas we will put more money. Many times I have said that we are not a policy and a research department.

In fact, we are a department that wants to empower the community through volunteers in the community who commit endless numb ers of hour s sitting on boards determining the kinds of activities that should be put ill place to attract audiences, to develop skills throughout the width and the breadth of our province. In fact, we will continue to do that. We may philosophically disagree, but I do not believe that piles of dollars going into research and analysis of what is happening internationally is going to benefit Manitobans and is going to

June 16 , 199 2 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 4800 increase, in fact, their awareness when we tell them that certain things are happening in other countries, that it is going to make people want to do any more than what the communities right here in Manitoba believe will attract audiences in the types of things that they unde rtake to do and the types of support that we give as a result of the communities' indication of what direction they feel they want to go. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I think the minister was too quick to dismiss research. It is not acade mic research I am looking for.

It is research that will inform the planning of the departm ent, and research that will assist community groups to look at where their sponsorships are coming from, how much of a proportion of it can be expected from corporations, how much can be expected from individual donors, what motivates those individual donors. For example, there is no way that a community arts organization can do that kind of research for Manitoba and to look at those kind of sources. So that is the kind of research that I am talking about, one that seems to me every oth er government department would be involved in in setting policy.

I am looking for some suggestions that might be of use to those community groups that we all value, to those volunteers whom we all value. The second thing is, when I asked about international trends , I am simply quoting from the objectives of this department, which say, under 14 -2A, which is the line that we are discussing, that this department maintains awareness of provincial, national and international trends and new developments within each discipline, apprising ourselves and our clients of available options.

So when the minister came forth with a clipping from The Globe and Mail on the national trends in arts, she may be right. Ontario may be the national trends . But I am simply suggesting that it would be useful for the department and for all of their clients and for all of those volunteers perhaps to have some leadership from this department in looking at those kinds of research behind policy. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I have already indicated and we have talked to a fairly great extent about the Canadian Consumer Arts Profile that was done. We were a participant in that.

That is the kind of joint initiative, federal ly and across the country, that gives not only Manitobans but all Canadians an idea of what the trends are throughout the country. We can utilize the information that has been gathered . I read into the record already tonight the kinds of things that we know are happening in Manitoba as a result of the survey and the profile that has been done. We will utilize that informa tion. I agreed to share that with opposition critics. We will be sharing it with Manitobans and with organizations throughout Manitoba. *

(2050) So we do have an idea of what is happening in Manitoba and across Canada as a result of that Consumer Arts Profile. We do not need a policy branch within the dep artment when we can participate in those kinds of joint initiatives that are going to benefit not only Manitobans but all Canadians. Ms. Friesen: It is true; there is research elsewhere. That is what I am trying to ask. Is the minister aware of those kinds of research, for example, the one that was done recently by the Rural Development Institute in Brandon, which looked at recreational, cultural and health needs in the Neepawa district?

It seemed to the me that there were some indications in that report of things that would have useful implications for cultural planning for a broader range of communities. One, obviously, is the demographic profile. But another is, for example, one of the perceptions in that study was that one of the things which kept people away from some cultural organizations was the recognition that they were perhaps or the perception that they were domina ted by a relatively small group. Has the minister found that this is true for other organizations?

Has she thought about going outside the existing client groups who apply for the grants and create the broader community, in a sense, where they get the grants? Mrs. MHchelson: We fund through government, not through my department, but I think that it is through the Department of Rural Development, there is an agreement with the Rural Development research institute. The information that has been provided has been utilized by our department. We do board development throughout the province.

We have some expertise within that helps boards in looking at roles, responsibilities, setting goals and objectives, volunteer development, fundraising. All of those kinds of things are done

4801 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA June 16 , 19 92 through the department. We have regional services staff people throughout the province who work with community organizations. When there is a need expressed, we try to help develop those needs into action, I suppose, through application to different programs throughout government, specifically a lot within our department, that can benefit many communities. Ms.

Friesen: One of the basic things that report suggested was that one of the difficulties facing rural Manitoba-and it is there, of course, for many areas of government policy-is the particular demographic structure and also the income level. I looked at the Neepawa one, and I was actually very surprised to find that almost-1 think it is 65 percent of the population, family income is less than $30,000. That is family income.

It is also, of course, the usual-what has become the usual, unfortunately-demo graphic structure of rural Manitoba, and that is a very high proportion of people over the age of 55, a large number, proportionately, of widows and of older single people. I wonder what implications this has for the cultural planning for rural Manitoba, or recognition of cultural needs in rural Manitoba? Mrs. Mitchelson: There are many communities throughout rural Manitoba, and I know that I have many colleagues who sit around our government caucus table who represent those communities and those constituencies.

We realize and recognize that times are tough in rural Manitoba and the average family income is probably considerably lower than it is in many instances. We do know that there are many living below the poverty line in Winnipeg also. But it is difficult in rural Manitoba. I think that the spirit in those communities is high and that people are, in fact, looking at ways that, within their limited financial resources, they can take advantage of what their communities have to offer.

When you look at cultural programming, I guess, we could have the debate on whether it is excellence in culture, whether it is community art, whether it is community recreation, whether it is small museums throughout rural Manitoba, whether it might be walking tours that are developed to look at the history and the heritage. I know I was down in the southwest part of Manitoba last summer when the Boundaries Commission was travelling through and was able to participate in, not actively participate, but at least able to be there to congratulate those who did venture out across the southwestern part of our province.

So there is community participation in those kinds of activities, a very large volunteer commitment, and in many instances there is not a large dollar commitment. Our department has programs that are sensitive to community needs, and we provide grants in areas that help to develop the initiatives that are under take n. I have a lot of faith in Manitobans and their ability to work together, to bring together people within a community to provide the kinds of cultural, recreation and heritage venues, I suppose, that will be of benefit to many. Ms. Friesen: When can we expect a new arts act?

The minister has talked about it from time to time in passing. Is there a schedule? I assume we are not going to see it in this Legislature. I am not asking you to commit to it. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I suppose it all depends on how long this session continues. No, realistically speaking, and I cannot give an exa ct date, but that was one of the recommendations in the DeFehr Arts Policy Review Report. I would imagine that consultation on that will begin this fall, and I cannot indic ate whether it would be the next session or the one following that.

I would think that within a couple of years we should be able to accomplish it. Ms. Friesen: Can I just follow up on that a minute? What is the process? Are you planning a white paper, some consultation and then

an act? Is that the general idea, consultation before the act is drafted , in some form or other? Mrs. Mitchelson: Yes, there will be consultation. I could not indicate today whether, in fact, there will be a white paper. We will have to sit do wn. It has been a pretty busy year for the department with the establishment of the Arts Branch and implementing the new programs that we believe will enhance the opportunity for com munity arts to develop and flourish throughout the province.

We have un der taken that and accom plished those recommendations from the DeFehr Report, and we will begin this fall to work on some sort of consultation process. We would be able to indic ate later on whether it would be a white paper or whether it will just be consultation leading to the drafting of a piece of legislation. Ms. Friesen: I have a couple of other questions before I am prepared to move on. I do not know

June 16 , 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 4802 about the liberal critic. One is process. I would like to ask some questions about the Arts Council and the minister's relationship with the Arts Council. Where would you like to look at that, on this line or elsewhere? The Acting Deputy Chairperson (Mr. Penner): I would suggestthat you probably consider that under the next item, under Arts Branch, if you will. .. (21 00) Mrs. Mitchelson: We could do that under 2.(

b) which is Grants to Cultural Organizations. Ms. Friesen: My last question, I am a bit curious about the activity identified as: "Valuing staff by appreciating commitment and competence in providing a safe, stimulating work environment." It was not in last year. Is there some particular personnel policy or strategy in place here, and is it applicable to other departments? Mrs. Mitchelson: In fact, as a result of the restructuring in the Arts Branch, there was a whole new role and mission, and every single person within the division had input into that. Ms. Friesen: Sorry, but input into what? Mrs.

Mitchelson: Into the Role and Mission Statement for the division. Ms. Friesen: Though this is just specific to this division? Mrs. Mitchelson: Yes, it is. Ms. Friesen: I find it odd. I mean, obviously on the surface of it is what sometimes people say, "is a motherhood statement." An Honourable Member: Oh, oh, oh; that is sexist. Ms. Friesen: It was in quotes. It seems a bit odd. Is there something peculiar about it? Mrs.

Mitchelson: I guess, in sitting down and dev eloping a Role and Mission Statement, if staff feel it is important to state their appreciation for one another and their commitment to competence, I think I would only commend staff for taking a look at the realities of today, stimulating a good work environm en t and prov idin g for a safe work environment. If they feel that is important, and it is important to their sense of well being and their commitment to their job and to the people of Manitoba, I think it is very laudable. Ms. Friesen: That is exactly why I am asking about it. Why did staff in this

section feel the need to say that they wanted to provide a safe and stimulating work environment. The underlying assumption there is that it was not before. Perhaps the minister would like to correct that impression and just put something on record . Mrs. Mitchelson: I can only speak on behalf of the staff that have indic ated to me that it certainly was not anything negative, that they started by talking about their role and mission and the value they placed on their ability to serve the community that they dealt with. It is a pride statement, so to speak.

I believe if staff do take pride and want to express that in a Role and Mission Statement that I give them much credit for it. Ms. Friesen: Thank you, I am glad to have that clarification. It sticks out like a sore thumb, having been going through other departments where it is not. If the minister is putting on the record that it is sim ply part of a formal process within the department, not something which has been stimulated by particular events, then that is fine. I am finished with that one. Mrs.

Mitchelson: I would just like to say to my staff that I have a very energetic and entnusiastic and positive, forward-thinking staff that I believe has an extremely good working relationship. There are many positive things happening as a result of that. Maybe it should be an example for other departments at some point in time, too, to take a look at the positive side. So ve ry often we hear comments like, morale is low. I would believe that morale is high and that we have a commitment and a dedication to a strong work ethic.

It might come as a result of a very lean department where we have looked at streamlining and making efficient and effective decisio ns. It has been a partnership of all staff working together to make it happen. So I think this statement is an indication of that commitment. So I commend staff for that initiative. The Acting Deputy Chairperson (Mr. Penner): Item 2.(a)(1 ) Salaries $228,000-pass; 2.(a)

(2) Other Expenditures $59,400-i>ass. Item 2.(

b) Grants to Cultural Organizations. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, just a very short question, and I would ask if the minister can at least get the information off to me. What I am interested in is the recipients of the

4803 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANIT OBA June 16 , 19 92 cultural grants, both on this particular line and, I underst and, in terms of 7.(a), under the Lotteries, that there are also grant monies that are handed out, if that could be made available? I understand in the past it has been done. I would just ask for the minister to provide that information sometime over this summer. Mrs. Mitchelson: I can undertake to do that and provide it. Mr. Lamoureux: The only other thing that I was interested in knowin g is that on 32 of the Supplementary Estimates it talks about the increase in the capital grants, and there is an (

a) in which it identifies why this substantial increase. All I would ask is, what percentage of the makeup of the actual $6.8 million is being spent? Mrs. Mitchelson: Repeat the question. Mr. Lamoureux: In terms of the capital, how much is the Manitoba Museum of Man and Nature receiving and the Centennial Concert Hall? That is all I need to know. Mrs. Mitchelson: The cladding in this year-end it is over a number of years for-well, I guess for the Concert Hall this year is the last year, and that will be completed.

It is $2.5 million for the Concert Hall, and $1 .7 million for the Museum of Man and Nature for the exterior cladding this year. That will be a multiyear commitment, so there will be dollars that will flow over the next number of years. I think that the total, final bill or the estimates that we have right now-$9.3 million for the museum is the estimate and that will be done over several years; $1 .7 million this year. Mr. Lamoureux: Finally, again, if I could just get a breakdown of the other recipients of their capital too? Thank you. The Acting Deputy Chairperson (Mr. Penner): Item 2.(

b) Grants to Cultural Organizations. Ms. Friesen: I wanted to ask about the Winnipeg Art Gallery and how much money went to the Winnipeg Art Gallery this year and perhaps some comparison to the last two years. Mrs. Mitchelson: For 1991 -92, it was$1 ,963,700; for 1992-93, $1 ,989,200; and last year's 1991-92 grant commitment was $350,000 more than the year before. (Mr. Jack Reimer, Acting Deputy Chairperson, in the Chair) Ms. Friesen: What is the relationship of the department to the Winnipeg Art Gallery? Does the department appoint any members of the board , or does the government, I should say? Mrs.

MHchelson: Thank you, new Mr. Acting Deputy Chai rperson. We are currently in the process of negotiation right now. We do have the ability to appoint one board member. We are looking at negotiating with them and possibly having the ability to appoint a few more. Ms. Friesen: Does the Province of Manitoba, at the present, have a representative on that board ? * (21 1 0) Mrs . Mitchelson: There has not been a board me mber for five or six years appoin ted by government. Ms. Friesen: I believe that the board, at the moment, numbers about 20.

So the minister is looking for an opportunity to appoint a portion of that, a quarter perhaps or the same? The Museum of Man and Nature has half of its board appointed by the government. Is the minister looking for a similar kind of relationship, because the funding certainly seems to be about the same proportion? Mrs . Mitchelson: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, we are not looking at appointing half of the board , we are looking at, I do not know, three or four members at most, I suppose. Ms. Friese n: The mini ster said she was negotiating for that now. Is there a timetable on that?

Are you looking perhaps for-I think they have just had their annual meeting or it is just in the process of happening this month. Are we looking at the next annual meeting? Mrs. Mitchelson: We expect the negotiations to be completed maybe by August or so in that respect. They are just gearing up for an annual general meeting right now. Ms. Friesen: I would like to draw to the minister's attention something which I thought I had drawn to her attention last year, but I might not have done. It is particularly appropriate perhaps under this

section too, where we are looking at both the Art Gallery and the relationship with the Department of Industry, Trade and Tourism. This is the second year running that the Department of Trade and Tourism has produced its booklet of travel, what is it called, travel cards, you know, travel bargains for Manitoba. For the second

June 16 , 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 4804 year running their map of tourist attractions in Manitoba has managed to omit the Winnipeg Art Gallery. I am not sure if I mentioned it in Estimates last time. The Museum of Man and Nature is there, Dalnavert is there, the Western Canadian Aviation Museum, the St. Boniface Museum and yet it seems to me the million dollars that the public is putting into this simply has not made it into the consciousness of Industry, Trade and Tourism.

Now last year I dismis sed it because the map was sponsored by Safeway, and it was pretty tricky with 29 Safeway locations to actually find room for the Winnipeg Art Gallery. Butthis year I notice that they have dropped Safeway or Safeway has dropped us-1 do not know which way it is-but the Winnipeg Art Gallery still has not made it. I would draw that to the minister's attention. Unfortunately, Indus try, Trade and Tourism is happening at the same time as us, otherwise I would have-it is not specifically the responsibility of this ministry except insofar as co-ordination takes place.

I hope she will be able to make sure that next year the million dollars of public money at least has the opportunity to be drawn to the attention of tourists both inside and outside of Manitoba. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I cannot recall and my staff cannot recall either that that was brought forward last year through the Estimates process, but I might say it is a good suggestion, a good recommendation. I will follow up-1 know you cannot be in both places at once either-and I will follow up with a memo to the Minister of Ind ustry, Trade and Tou rism (Mr. Stefanson).

Along with many other initiatives that are ongoing, a lot of the market research that has been done on tourism does indicate that heritage is one of the reasons that people do come to Manitoba. It is probably above more than 50 percent from many different areas. As a result of some of that mar ket resear ch, we are es tabl ishing an interdepartmental committee with Industry, Trade and Tourism to look at support and planning for future. There are many future heritage-tourism projects that merit much considerat ion. So I think that over the next period of time we will see some positive move in those directions.

Your comment about the Art Gallery is worth also mentioning to the Department of Industry, Trade and Tourism. Ms. Friesen: I did want to pursue the relationships between tourism and the department of Culture, and I notice that there is a

section in Heritage where we can look at that, particularly looking at the Westman area. I am glad to hear the minister's comments on the importance of culture, generally, and tourism marketing. I hope and wish her success in getting that across to Industry, Trade and Tourism. I thought there might have been a chink in the fish and game routine. This last round of adve rtising, A Place in the Heart, there is a sort of a focus on heritage slightly.

I wondered if I was misreading tourism studies and whether tourism studies were saying that the fish and game and lakes and clean water, et cetera, were what people anticipated in Manitoba? Mrs. Mitchelson: They indeed still are a very important factor in attracting tourists to Manitoba. As we know, our multicu ltur al arts through Folklorama has been a major tourist attraction; but as I said, as a result of the recent market research that has been done, Heritage is an area that we need to focus on. As a result, I have a memo in front of me from the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr.

Stefanson) Inviting our department to be part of a joint initiative to examine some of the ways that we can work together towards looking at heritage tourism in Manitoba. So we are just beginning. This was just very recent, dated June 1 0, and we will start that process very soon, as soon as staff from both departments get through the Estimates process and can get into meeting and trying to det ermine what can be done in the future. So it is kind of an exciting challenge for our Historic Resources Branch to be undertaking. Ms.

Friesen: I wanted to ask a couple of questions about the Manitoba Museum of Man and Nature. Perhaps in the possibility of the minister appointing members to the Winnipeg Art Gallery Board, one of the things that I would commend the Art Gallery for and have done in the past is that they do maintain a free day now that they charge admission. They still do maintain a free day, and I hope that will be maintained. I am still disappointed that the Museum of Man and Nature has chosen to end that, given the amount of public money which is committed to that museum over the past 20-odd years. I am curious,

4805 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA June 16 , 19 92 and I am not sure of the minister's relationship to the Museum of Man and Nature, but one of the things that struck me was that the museum has recently become a "corporate sponsor" on Prairie Public Television. Now, that struck me as unusual. There may indeed be some good reasons for it, but why is public money going from the government to the museum to an American television company? I might say that similarly the Heritage Federation also gave a grant of $1 0,000 to Prairie Public Television to do a film video on the heritage of the Exchange District.

Now , I do not know the conditions of that grant and whether it is tied to local production crews or anything else local, and I do not know whether the minister wants tci get into those kind of grants, but the two coming together struck me as odd. Here is public money going to a very worthwhile American endeavour. I mean, I belong to Prairie Public Television. The issue is not the quality or anything, it is the principle of where public money is going. Mrs. Mitchelson: We do not have a hands-on, day-to-day function of dealing and running the Museum of Man and Nature.

They do have a board , and they have staff that do undert ake that. It is 68 percent of their budgetthat is provincial funding, and I think it is up to about 70-some when you include federal funding.

The rest comes from foundations, and of course entrance fees and that kind of thing, any fundraising that they might do, I suppose the sales in the gift shop and that kind of thing. • (212 0) I cannot tell you where that money came from and who made that decision, but we certainly can ask those questions of the museum, and I am sure they would be more than willing to respond to that questioning, but It would be their decision. It certainly was not a decision that was made by us in any way or we had any part of. We did not have any part of that decision making. Ms.

Friesen: In both cases, in terms of market niche and adve rtising, if that is what is intended, I can see that there are reasons for dealing with Prairie Public Television. It may be that the Museum of Man and Nature one was specifically connected to the Muppets. It may be that it is short term.

I do not know, and I guess the first time I saw the Museum of Man and Nature on Prairie Public Television, I just raised my eyebrows, but when I also saw money going from the Heritage Federation to a video, and I do not know the terms of the making of that video, essentially paying an American corporation to tell us about ourselves, well, it certainly seemed to me a general area that I would like to draw to the minister's attention.

As I say, in both cases there may be very good reasons and there may be short-term reasons, and in the case of an arm's length agency, there may be particular ways in which the minister wants to address it. It is not something I would perhaps raise in a specific way, but the general issue might be one to draw to your attention. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I do thank the member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen) for drawing that to my attention, and I will ask the museum and I think we could ask probably the Heritage Federa tion, too, for the reason or rationale that the grant was provided.

I am sure both would be very willing to provide that kind of information, and I will share it. Ms. Friesen: We are talking about increased production and marketing for Manitoba's cultural industries. Could the minister perhaps give us an indica tion of what has been happening in that area? I do not mean just film, but I guess the whole cultural area, unless that particular line just applies to film. Mrs. Mitchelson: Rim is in 2.(c), but I guess I would ask whether we have any more questions on Grants to Cultural Organizations. Ms. Friesen: Is this where you prefer to talk about the Arts Council? Mrs.

Mitchelson: Okay. Ms. Friesen: Then I would like to ask about the Arts Council. In an earlier discussion when we were talking about research and planning in the arts, the minister indicated that the Manitoba Arts Council had some responsibility in that area. I looked at their organizational chart and I could not see really where they had the staff or the opportunity to do that or the budget lines, and yet in the report from the chairperson, they do, in fact, talk about some reflections on policy that they have had as a board , in. reacting for exam ple, to the funding of controversial theatre pieces.

Could the minister give us an indica tion of what she expects in terms of policy and research from this agency? Mrs. Mitchelson: I am informed that there is one-haH staff year at the Manitoba Arts Council who is committed solely to research.

June 16 , 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 4806 Ms. Friesen: Has that, over the last four or five years produced any reports, and would they be available to the general public? Mrs. Mitchelson: In many instances I am informed it is internal analysis of the organizations that they fund, and they do briefs and that kind of thing, and I could certainly ask the Arts Council whether there is anything that they could provide for us, anything that has been a public document that could be provided, and I would be prepared to attempt to obtain that for you. Ms.

Friesen: The report of the Arts Council, and this is the one I am thinking of, the annual report that we get in the Legislature, is there a broader report that is available to the public? It seems to me that from the perspective of the minister this could be one of the most important documents that you prod uce, because the range of activities, the range of programs that are presented here throughout Manitoba, the accomplishments of individual artists are enormous. Yet, it seems to me that this gets very little distribution. Also, it is very uninformative about what the actual projects are.

For example, one of them that is actually mentioned in a report is the project of Aganetha Dyck at the Brandon art gallery, and that sounded very interesting. Would it not be useful, in the absence of the skills transfer program, for example, to have a much longer report that enabled people in other galleries and other smaller locations in Brandon perhaps, to have an understanding of what happened there, that they might be able to use that kind of information and initiate those kinds of projects?

The lists of names, places, da tes, length of time they are in the schools are not really helpful in expanding the understanding or pride in Mani toba cultural achievement. Mrs. Mitchelson: There is not anything more extensive. I do know that they do do fairly major and extensive news releases, on occasion, when grants are given out and that kind of thing. Unfortunately, sometimes it is not a high priority issue with the media.

Those kinds of things do not get covered in the newspapers, I would say, as frequently as they should be covered; they are good news stories and they are stories about Manitobans who have made major accomplishments and have contributed much. I am sure that, from time to time-the member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen) does know if she has done a news release-it does not always get covered. So it is not always the best way to try to get information across to the general public. Indeed, we try, and I guess we will continue to try.

But one of the reasons, I believe, that the DeFehr Report recommended an arts act, was that it would enable a minister responsible for culture, who would be an advocate within government, to provide an annual report to the Legislature on the state of the arts in Manitoba. I think that is probably one of the most important aspects of

an act. Indeed, I would believe that that would be a very comprehensive report. Some of the things that we have just talked about should probably or should, I think, definitely be included in that annual report, indicating what the state of the arts is and what we have accomplished-and not only what we have acc ompl ished but what Man itobans have accomplished through their contributions. Ms. Friesen: I think there are two audiences. One is the general public that a state of the arts might reac h.

But the other is the artists and the community groups themselves, and the institutions, both large and small-1 think, right from now, I do not know why it would need to wait for an arts act-who would have an immedia te interest in what is being done in other cultural disciplines and what is being done in other parts of the province. Mrs. Mitchelson: I think it would be a very valuable tool. I know that within this year's budget we certainly do not have the resources to compile that kind of thing within the department.

I think the comments that you have made tonight about the Annual Report of the Manitoba Arts Council certainly could be passed on to them for consideration in next year's annual report. I would certainly undertake to talk to the chairperson at the Manitoba Arts Council and pass on your comments to her and see whether they mer it some consideration and if, indeed, they might change their format for publishing next year. Ms. Friesen: Sorry, no. I wanted to go to marketing. * (213 0) The Acting Deputy Chairperson (Mr. Reimer): Item 2.(

b) Grants to Cultural Organizations $4,265,000-pass . 2.(

c) Arts Branch:

(1) Salaries $44 8,000.

4807 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANIT OBA June 16 , 19 92 Ms. Friesen: I wanted to ask about the marketing and increased production that is indicated here in one of the results of this part of the department. It really follows on from what I was suggesting for the Manitoba Arts Council report and also what to me is a fairly minimum tourism research at this stage. Well, ma:ybe I will start by, if the minister could tell us what has been happening in marketing and increased production in this area. Mrs. Mitchelson: Was that cultural industry? Ms. Friesen: The minister asked, was it cultural indus tries?

I am on page 38, under Expected Results, increased production and marketing by Manitoba cultural industries. When f first posed this question a couple of minutes ago, I asked , does cultural industries in this context only refer to film publishing, et cetera, the things that were in the cultural industries agreement or is there a broader framework in the department for encouraging increased production and marketing? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, this does include sound, film and publishing, and there has been expanded marketing through our publishing program . We have a ma rketi

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-3-87b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 3rd hansardpdf 87b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	444a79f299b728a930436645b0aa1d3247beaae1

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