PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDL.AND AND LABRADOR HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY Volume 1 Number 75 4th. Session 34th. General Assembly VERBATIM REPORT THURSDAY , MAY 21, 1970 SPEAKER; THE HONOURABLE GEORGE W. C.LAR.KE

May 21st. 1970 Tape 942 PK- 1 The Bouse met at 10:30 A.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. . BON. J. R. SMALLWOOD: (PREMIER) Mr. Speaker, I believe that all •mbera of thia Houee were ahocked and saddened to bear of the death of the Han. John R. Courage, a former •mber of tbie Bouse and former Speaker of thia House. In fact Your Honour's immediate predeasor, I believe. Mr. Courage as we know was striken down by a massive cereb~al b~~age or stroke and bas been d•sperately ill up to the moment of his death. I do not think that he recovered consciousness after the stroke.

He was aa · ~~ormously po~ular man among us in this House, there was genuine affection ·for ·him l think on all sides of·the Rouse. He was regarded as a capable Speaker and he was regarded aa one Who was very kuavledgeable and I think he was accepted by the House 1 as Your Honour .t.,as an honourable and i.-partial . Speaker.

As a member for Fortune Bay, be was respected and popular and oo the first three or four occasions on which he was elected he waa elected by what you could only call staggering majorit~es,between eilbty and nineey wtes out of every hundre4, and I think in "one election something 110re than ninety votes out of every hundred in that great district. He vas a very studious man-; John Courage, an o11111ivoroua reader, and aa aadleas student. I ueed to think tM.t perhaps he would be happiest of all·.if be could have spent his life always as ·a student, at this or that or the other university.

I believe be was happiest when he vas followiq the life of a student. A perpet~ .atudent. A great re.tder .• and a great student. Hie ovu family are left aow .bereft and Newfoundland bas lost a good citizen. I, ayself have lost a great personal friend. He was one of WI'J earlieat converts to the cause of Confederation. I am uot sure even that he waa a convert. It may well be that be was a Confederate before I vas. eo.tns as "be did from th~ Southwest Coast _wbere all the people were Confederate or ninety-five perceltt mora of them, he vo'lll.d naturally hi•elf be a COnfederate. ~ he certainly vas.

But be vas a convert to "II'J causa. ha 4625

May 2bt. 1970 Tape 942 n-~- MR. SMid.LWOD: vaa an early recruit in the • ..-veJ~~ent I launched and he vas a valuable one, very ardent, very sincere, very useful. So I have lost one . of the areat early Confederates 1 Cine of the great figures in our early Confeclerate Move•nt in Newfoundland, and after that a close personal friend. I eannot find words to express the sorrow I ~eel at the lost of a great friend and one of the pioneer Confederates.

One by one these Newfoundlanders who changed the very course of our ht.u~, one by one they go, the band lla· smaller than it was and it will be ..aller, and at length it will be no more, there will be none ~eft, unless it will be some very old ~ of ninety-five or a hundred.Within the foreseeable future there will not be one left of that great noble Confederate army of wbiCb Jack Courage was a very prominent and useful -mer. Seconded by the Leader of the Opposition Ijmve that this House regrets the death of the Ron. John R.

Courage, a former Speaker and one of the men elected to the first Bouse of Assembly of the Province of Newfoundland, that this Bouse requests the Speaker to extend an expression of sympathy to the bereaved family. MR. A. J. MURPHY: (LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION) Mr. Speaker, I. would like to add ~ few words of sadness at this time, I knew Jack Courage as a man, as a Newfoundlander perhaps, his political affUiat_t.o.did not influence me 4 ' · :-- in anyway~ ,having any more or leas respect for him.

I was not !ntimate ·.I with the gentleaan, and I knew of course he vas a Liberal member in this Legislature and a former Speaker. As I said;· for me, I adld.re a man for tdlat be is and not perhaps what he stands for, but I would like to join with the bon. the Premier in this Resolution, and also on behalf I am sure not only as perty representative, but of all of WI in the BoWie to extend to his mother ·and his wife and children our very sincere aad feelings at the'lose of a !ather, a ·eon and a grea_t Newfoundl.asl.der. I

1 May 2lat. 1970 Tape 942 p~- 3 MR. J. C. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to join in supporting this Reaolution of the regret of the death of the late John Courage, former Speaker of the Houae and member for Fortune Bay Diatric:t.' , 1 believe after be entered into politic:• or be~ ... a member of tbia Houaa be untook the study of Law and bec:alll8 a lawyer, be waa a brother lawyer of the legal members of this House. And I further understand be was a great student, he did quite a lot of graduate work after he left university after he did his B.A.

I believe be did a thesis. one of his theses vas on Procedure in the Newfoundland House of Assembly. I have always intended to try and get a copy of. it :.to have a look at it, but I never bad a look at it yet.I presume it is at Memorial University. Mr. Courage was a man who never stopped improving himself intellectually or professionally, which was a great compl.illlent to ~im. I notice, Mr. Speaker, according to the paper 1 that Mr. Courage was only fifty-five years of age, which I bad not realized. I thought be was older than that.

So his death. is certainly at a young age and a great loss to his fud.ly and to the Province of Newfoundland. MR. B. J. ABBOTT: Mr. Speaker, the bon. the Premier bas very adequately p•id tribute to the late John R. Courage, as Speaker of this House, and as a 1II&D who played a large

part in the Confederation issue, I should like to . pay tribute to h:im as a member of the Executive of th.e Canadian Bible Society of here in Newfoundland 1 which I happened to be the P~eaident. For two or three years be served with us on the Executive and then when he vas stricken ill he was atUl the Secretary of the Newfoundland District Board. I can speak of hie very metic:uloUSf41ethOdic:al way of doiq.g things. He made quite a contribution and was quite an asset to the Board in its deliberations. and I viah to publicly express 111y appreciat:S.on of his services and my deep !esret of his passing. MR. H. R.

V. EARLE: Mr. Speaker, I must follow in the sincere and deep regret of the passing of John •· Courage,Uon. IIIUibers Ic:aov, I followed him u M111ber for Fortune Bay and it vas only when I covered that diatric.t on ., fire~ occasion in entering into polities that I realized what a difficult tult-1 hacl. 4627

May 21st. 1970 Tape 942 Pk - 4 MR. EARLE: Jack Courage was loved and respected by the people of that area, he was a quite,friendly and sincere maa and the peo~le of Fortune Bay particularly and Hermitage,! might say,and all of the South Coast thought very highly indeed of Jack eourage. I had further association with him later as Minister of Finance, because of course he was Chairman of the Civil Service Commission in which he did an outstanding job and on many occasions I met with Mr. Courage and I hope that together we were able to forward the right aims of that Commission.

Certainly Jack Courage did his best at all times in a courtesy way, and I know that those who worked with him and those who were associated with him will miss him greatly. It is a terrific shame that a man of fifty-five: years old; in the prime of his life, who had much to offer for the future of this Province, should be taken away so suddently. late John R. Courage. I sincere join in the tributes to the MR. A. WRNELL: Mr. Speaker, I wish to support the motion before the Chair, Sir, and add my few words of condolence to the bereaved widow and the children of tne~lace John R. Courage.

I have not been too closely associated with the Ron. departed friend, but during the fight for Confederation I had the- honour to chai.r three meetings for Mr. Courage. The first one I remember ve _had at Coomb_'s Cove in Fortune Bay, it vas about four-thirty in the afternoon, just after the school. had closed. Ve were fortunate enough to get the school ball and we had a very successful meeting there. That night we went to English Harbour West and bad another meeting there. And after that I knew Jack Courage spasmodically, off aud on~ never very closely associated with hia.

I remember a short association with him in the Lion's Club, but·I certainly agree with what the Premier has said about Mr. Courage being an avid reader, a born student and a man who was a part of all that be bad met, as 'IellDJS01l ·baa saicl,in that great poem. ''Ulyaes". I alao think of a quotation froa Walter Savagelancior; "He strove with none, for none was worth a strife", and I alao think of a quotation from Julius (;aeaar; "His life waa gentle". 4~28

Hay 21st. 1970 Tape 942 PK- S MR. WRNELL: John Courage came from humble beginnings, Sir, born in Long U.rbour, Fortune Bay, where his father was a C.N .• T. or an Anglo Telegraph Operator. There w.re only four people, as the Pre.ier have stated Mr. Spaaker.Ke died when Jack was very young, "'rhere were only four people at that time,Si~ in Long Harbour, and it is amazing how the seeds of intellect grow in these humble and isolated surroundings. John Courage is a man that I think all of us could honour here today, he was not a controversial.

He probably was not the greatest politican in Newfoundland, but I really believe Sir, that he was a good parliament~rian. And I am very pleased to add my tribute to those all ready given in the House today. BON. F. W. ROWE: (MINISTER OF EDUCATION) : Mr.

Speaker without delaying the Bouse further, I think there are two aspects of our late friend's life that should be known I think and should be recorded, I happened to have been very close to him because our lives parallelled each other in certain respects, we were just about a year and a-half apart in age, we both ca~ed on similiar studies in our undergraduate days, we both majored in history ancl political science, and we were both principl1s of instutitions in St. John's here at the saae time, so Jack and I were very close together in the professional sense, and to some degree in a social sense.

Perhaps it is not generally known by this Bouse that our late friend wu the first graduate of the University, Memorial Un:iversity of Newfouadland, he was number one. Also, I happen to ltnow.because he showed it to me, I do not know what bas happened ta it, be hu written. a history of the Confederate Movement in Newfoundland. I think he might have done it for a Doctoral thesis for Columbia Un.iven1~. I know he had completed his studies at Columbia, tbe~stndiles . .neeessary for a doctorate and I think the• ·oiJ)..y remaining chore to perform was the usual on~ of have a disseration.

Wbetlaer ha had completed :l.t finally, I do not know. He did show me a draft of that, I glanced through it 1n fact and I think it would be incumbent on us here in the Bouse and I aa sure s0111ebody will look into it to find out what ha8 happened to that document,because as the Premier aaid, fte was a pioneer in the Confederate Movement here in Newfoundland. And ha was a very knowledgeable 4G29

May 21st. 1970 Tape 942 PK- 6 MR. ROWE: !'.W. Newfoundlander and it would be I think a shame if that document were to be lost to posterity, There is · certainly some valuable information in that document and I will take it upon myself to try to puraue that matter further.

I join with all the others in ~•easing regret at this tradgedy which was made all the 1110-re shocking by .. the fact that he was ,as we gene-rally say, in the p-rime of life, fifty-five yeaTs of age, and one moment was appa-rently in the best o~ health and the next moment was unconscious and has been so ever since .,until his death, a few hours ago. MR.. SPEAKER: I take .... it that the House concurs• unanimously in the motion, that is before the Chair. PRESENTING PETITIONS BON. W. N. ROVE: (MINISTER OF COMMUNITY AND SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT) Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present. a petition to thi.a bon.

House Jlhich I received froa the people of Purbeck Cove in my district of White Bay South. lbe petition appears to be signed by eue~ voter in that community, Mr. Speaker, some thi.rty person's. It is not• the~ largest metropolis in Canada, Mr. Speaker, but it is a place where people live and people have p6t in a lot of investment of time, effort and .,ney and I think it is a sballe that any member of this Bouse should run down the existence of such a place, and poke fun at them. Anyway, Mr.

Speake-r, it is a very &lUll place, a fairly re1110te place, ~though it has a road connection it is some thi~ miles from the Baie Verte Highway, an4 therefore it is very easy to - MI.. SMALLWOOD: Inaudible. MR. ROWE, W.N. ay bon. predesGor. The petition, Mr. Speaker, if I can get to that,asks that Purbeck's Cove be •applied with light and power, that the road leading to Purbeck..!.a 4630

May 21st. 1970 Tape 942 PK- 7 MR. ROWE:(W.

N) Cove be fixed better, to put in a better condition of repair and that the community of Parbeck' s Cove get a school teacher. Nov on the latter~of course this House, the Government and certainly the House have very little control over,allbougbt. I certainly support their desire to get a school teacher.

Ou the other two matters, tb~.matter of light and power and the repair of the road to Purbeck's Cove, I would urge the ministers concerned and the autborit~es to give these batters every possible consideration with a view to satisfying the needs 6f the people of that community. 1 move, Sir, that this petition be received by the bon. House and referred to the departments to which it relates. MR. SPEAKER: Moved and seconded that this petition be received and referred to the departments to which it relates. MR. F.W. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I

Hay 21st., 1970 Tape no 943 Page 1 .BON. F..W. ROWE (Minister of Education and Youth): Mr. Speaker, I would again be negligent if I did not support that petition, at least, the request of the people of Purbeck Cove. Purbeck Cove has an unusual distinction iD White Bay South. I think it ~as in the last election that I ran there and there vere thirty voters. There were twenty-nine voters there. Fourteen of them voted for me and fifteen of them voted for my opponent making, I think, Pubeck Cove the only place in White Bay South which did not give me a majority. However, seriously, I •• MR.

SMALLWOOD: Thirty mile road. MR. ROWE (F.W.): The road to Purbeck Cove)contrary to some of the allegations made her~ is only three miles- it is thirty miles from the Baie Verte highway, but it is three miles from the Westport highway which explains wh~~they have that little road to Purbeck Cove. Westport is a minor .. tropolis of White Bay South. Mr. Speaker, I would like to say seriously that I know these, people vary well. I have been in all their homes. I have met them all.

They are a fine group of hard-working, independent people who have established hoMs there, as the member said and who have been carrying on an independent 11-fe there ,and they want to try and improve it as best they can. Whether or not for a community so small it is possible to provide all of these amenities and facilities is a pretty open question. Certainly~- nobody has yet devised a way whereby you can get qualified taacber~ to 10 to these little coDIIlunities and stay there. I do not know the answer to that problem. Perhaps there is not an answer to it.

Certainly it is not .. rely an answer of dollars and cents. A highly graded teacher or even a. teacher with moderate standarda,giv~n a ·choice 1will teach in Glovertown or Lewiaporte or SpTlngdale rather than go to Purbeck Cove, and that is a fact of life that ve have to live with. I do not know the answer to that, short of imposiDa a dictatorship there. 4632

Hay 21st •• 1970 Tape oo 943 Page 2 However, I do support this request from the people of Purbeck Cove. MR. MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to support it, but it is Yery difficult to follow a father and son act. My reason for •• _MR. SMALLWOOD: Son and father. _MR. MURPHY: My r~ason for expressing some surprise at the petition, 1 remember the first petition, one of the few that I did present to the Bouse and I had to go to the Standing Orders and get the form and I was really worried to death whether the House would accept this thing. It was graciously drawn up.

It was al.ost like the Address in Reply to his Honour the Lieutenant- Governor and when I saw the gentleman pick this out of the sand, I was just wondering what the situation was. I was going to support the petition anyhow and in view of the bon. Minister of Educati~n's remarks, I have to say that these people should get this immediately what they are looking for. Do not "hesitate any- this week. Perhaps over the long weekend the Minister of Highways and the minister might go down and have a look at it. I a111 very happy to support this petition.

It is one of many that co .. in from the smaller areas, and 1 feel, as the bon. Minister of ·Education has pointed out, it is very, vary difficult to give everybody everythi~g that they lbok for, but 1 a hope that special effort will be made to accede to thi prayer of this petition, and I am going to get a copy of the prayer, Mr. Speaker, to use in form of petitions that I will be presenting in this Bouse. MR. SPEAKER: It is moved and seconded that this petition be received and referred to the department to Which it relates. Carried. HR. WILLIAM R. SMALLWOOD: Mr.

Speaker, 1 beg leave to present a petition froa the people of Miles Cove on Sunday Cove Islaod. Mr. Speaker, this • petition has been signed, I would say, by the vast ujority of the vote~• of Miles Cove and the prayer, Sir, of the petition is for a road 4633

May 21st ·., 1970 Tape no 943 Page 3 ·connection from the main road going between South Brook and Roberta Arm out to the salt water and then across to the isl~d of Sunday Cove Island and down to the settlement of Miles Cove. ' Mr. Speaker, I might say that this is one of two settlements on Sunday Cove Island, and it is the same place that I brought a petition into this House, I think, it was last year, concerning the same road. Mr. Speaker, I think that these people deserve the road.

It is only, relatively, a short distance, at least, from the Roberts Arm road down to the seashore and then, of course, a causeway would have to be built over a short distance of sea 1and the water is not.very deep there in that . particular place. AN BON. MEMBER: Three miles long? MR. SMALLWOOD (W.a.): No. the distance, I think, would be no more than a quarter of a mile at the most. Mr. Speaker~ I strongly support this petition.

As I say, Sir it is esaantially the same type of petition that I presented in this Bouse a year ago and gave my strong support to it and made some strong cos.enta upon having :this particular pieca of road constructed. As I say, Sir, I strongly support the petition and ask that it be received by this Bouse and referred to the department to which it relates, and the .tnister is right in front of me. MB.. SPEAKER: It is moved and seconded that this petition be received and referred to the department to which it relates. Carried. NOTICE OF MOTION BON. La. CURTIS (Minister of Just-ice): , Mr.

Speaker, I give notice that I will on to..orrow ask leave to introduce a Bill, "An Act To Authorize The Lieutenant-Governor in Council To Enter Into An Agreement With Churchill Falls (LabradOr) Corporation Limited Further To Amend The Lease Exec~ted ADd 4G:Stl

Hay 21st., 1970 Tape no 943 Page 4 Delivered In Pursuance Of The Churchill Falls (Labrador) Corporation Limited (Lease) Act, 1961, As Amended, And To Make Statutory Provisions Relating To The Lease." A Bill, "An Act To Amen4 The British Newfo\Dldland Exploration Limited Statute And Agreement (Amendment) Act, 1970.• A Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The St~tutory Mining And Shipp~g Agreement Executed Pursuant To The Government - The flintko~e Company - Atlantic Gypsum, Limited (Authorization' of Agreement) Act, 1960." ~ Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The British Newfoundland Exploration Limited (Petroleum And Natural Gas) Act, 1963." There is another Bill for which I have not a copy and I would ask leave to give it later.

ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, Question no 511, on the Order Paper of May 18th. The IW.&wer to the first

part is that no such deposit has been -de, and that, therefore, no answers arise to part two and three. That question is in the name of the bon. member for Burin. Question no 514, on the Order Paper of May 18th., asked by t~ same hon. ')entleman. The answer is no. ·Question no 515, in then ... of the hon. member for St. John's West. The answer to the first

part is, November, 1969. If the bon. gentleman wants the date, I can get that. The rate of interest is 6~ per cent. The answar to the second

part is, December, 1969 and I can get the exact date, if that is wanted. December, 1969, in an amount of $100,000 bearing interest at the rate of 6~ p~r cen~. In the third part, I have to say that I aa not sure that I understand tHe nature of that part of the question. I take it that it relates to the two parts preceding in this same question; otherwise, I would assume that it was another question. I can only say that we have no overdraught whatsoevar at the Bank of Montreal or 4035

May 21st., 1970 Tape no 943 Page 5 aay other bank. The Government have no overdraughts. None. We have no demand note.. We do not owe any banks anything. MR. WELLS: What is the amount of short-term Treasury bills not exceeding MR. SMALLWOOD: I would need notice of that. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, in connection with the supplementary question. At the end of March, 1970, in relation to a question answered here, it was said that the Government owed the Bank of Montreal an amount of just over $14 million. MR. SMALLWOOD: I have answered the question. _MR. CROSBIE: That bas since been repaid. MR.

SMALLWOOD: I have answered the question. BON. E. WINSOR (Minister of Labrador Affairs): Mr. Speaker, Question no 510 asked by the hon. member for Labrador West appearing on the Order Paper of May 18th., and I table the answers. ORDERS OF THE DAY On laotion of the bon. the Premier, a Bill, "An Act To Incorporate The Moravian Church In Newfo~mdland And Labrador," reiid 1.a fd:rst time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On IIQtion of the bon.

Minister of Education, a Bill, "An Act To Validate And Provide For The Enforcement Of A Certain Agreement Between The Heads Of Certain Denominations Respecting The Appointment And Payment Of Certain Monies Allocated By The Province For Certain Educational Purposes In Respect To The Fiscal Year 1962-63 And To Hold Her Majesty Bo1md By ordered Such Agreement," read a first tiM,-" read a second tiaae on tomorrow. On .,tion of the hon. Minister of Education, a Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Technical And Vocational Training Act, 1963," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow.

On motion of the bon. Minbter of Provincial Affairs, a Bill. "An Act To Amend The Automobile Insurance Act, 1968," read a first time, ordered read a second u- on tomorrow. · 4636

May21at., 1970 Tape no 943 Page 6 On motion of the bon. Minister of Provincial Affairs, a Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Direct Sellers Act, 1966," read a first tt.&,ordered read a second time an tomorrow. On motion of the bon. Minister of Municipal Affairs, a Bill, "An Act To Amend The City Of St. John's (Loan) Act, 1969," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion, that the House go into Committee of the Whole on Supply (Estimates). Mr.Speaker left the Chair. MI.. HODDER (CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE). Hit.. SIIIALLWOOD: Mr.

Chairman, as we go into Committee of Supply may 1 aay that 1 am acting for the Minister of Finance who is still ill, but Who ia expected back shortly. 1 hope, perhaps, before the present week is over. May 1 say as well that 1 have invited the Deputy Minister of Finance and the Director of Public Accounts and other officials of the Finance Department will be sitting in the corridor or near by so that we may be able t~ provide, 1 hope,all the information asked. I do not guarantee it. I hope and certainly will try to provide all. 1 ought to say this, too, Mr.

Speaker that since the Estimates were printed and indeed since the Budget Speech was brought down, some changes have been made in the proposals of expenditure for the year, and these are not shown in the printed Estimates. 1 will give the Bouse an example. UDder the beading of current account,tbroughout-the whole of the printed Eatimates}the figures mown for salaries are, of course, 1 think, obviously inaccurate, that is to say they are incomplete.

They are not wrong, but additional amounts have to be added to cover the increased salary rates co which the Goverament have agreed for certain classifications of civil servants and others - others who will receive their salaries from the Treasury. 4637

May 21at •• 1970 Tape no 943 Paa• 7 It is impossible to insert those amounts at this time for the Very good reason that not all of them, as yet, have been negotiated. Some have been negotiated and some have not. Negotiations a. some rates are proceeding. That is as to actual salary rates. Then there are other matters that are involved in the rates of remuneration and in the compensation generally and the conditions of employment, generally, of civil servants and other public servants of the Government and others wbo are not civil servants, but who will recaive their pay from the Government.

These negotiations are proceeding, and we hope that they will terminate before too long. When they do terminate, we will know precisely how auch additional money we will ask the Committee of Supply to recommend to the Bouse and the House to pass f'ver and above the amounts shown in the printed Estimates. I think this position should be pretty clear to all hoD.

Mmbers of the CoiiiRittee of Supply that we canoot and, therefore, we have not shown - we could not, if we wanted to.- -and we do want to:. show the actual amounts that we will ask the committee to vote, to recommend to the Bouse as the ~· that the Government will pay out in this current financial year undar the heading of aalaries. There are still other things that are matters of nesotiation at the 'IIIOIIIellt, which will have to be shown. Now how shall ve shown them? We have at t~e.moment many items in the Estimates of expenditure. of salaries.

There ia an appendix at the back which has a long list of salaries and rates are shown. Than ill addition to that, there are block votes and these are shown

May 21, 1970 Ta_pe #944 Page 1 MR. SMALLWOOD: and it is over and above both of these, over and above them, there will be an additional &lock vote for the whole Government service not apportioned by the departments, but one single block vote the Committee will be asked to ad~ to the Estimates of Expenditure for salaries. There will be the total increase of at least 7 millions gross to be added of which some is in the Estimates, some is not, but this figure in any case is gross, because of course some receipts will come from the Government of Canada.

Some of these are coat-shared programs, and when we increase the rate of pay that we give, we recover some of the increase as we recover some of the original amount, the basic amount from the Government of Canada, or possibly even from other sources. That detail will . b~ given in the course of our deliberations here in Committee of the Whole. That is as to Current Account. Now as to Capital Account; we have pretty well completed our proposals for the current year, our proposed expenditures on roads, paving, water and sewerage and other forms of capital expenditure.

The water and sewerage program has not as yet been announced, and if the decision has been taken, this expenditure would be described and announeed by the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing as he coaes to that part of the Estimates. He will give an account of what we propose to do. iS Now Sir, when all this~done, it will call for expenditure on Capital Account over and above the amount shown in the Estimates, and the amount will be inserted when we come to discuss Capital Account expenditure. 1 think that about covers what 1 wanted to say in the way of preliminary introduction of the Estimates.

We are very anxious _in the Government to furnish the House, furnish the Committee 1 with all the information that the Committee may desire, and some that they may not desire, some that they may not request at any rate, and wherever we can we will. We have no desire whatsoever to shorten debate. If the Committee wishes to take three or faur or five weeks discussing these Estimates, ao be it. We will welc0111e that, and enjoy being here in the Chutber doing the people's business, as I am sure every other hon. member vill.similarly enjoy. Maybe not enjoy quite as much we will. but 4639

.no May 21, 1970 Tapa 1944 Page 2 doubtless they will enjoy being here, and enable us to bring forward the inforaation. AN HON. MEMBER: Do you think we will have Regatta Day bff? MR. SH&tLWOOD: Regatta Day is never spent in the House of Assembly. It is spent at Quidi Vidi, and I presume it will so spent this year - not in this Chamber. AN BON. MEMBER: Why not? MR. SMALLWOOD: Because there is a tradition in the capital of this Province.Before we were a Province it was the tradition of this country that on Regatta Day, ·most people go to the Regatta.

Some go out fishing, but I never heard of Regatta Day being spent in the House of Assembly, and I do not propose to introduce that inno.v•tion at this time. I ask the Committee to turn to Page 17 of the Estimates. That is the first page of which we ask the Committee to vote.,·Everything preceding Page 17 is statutory and calls for no voting. Page 17, Head

(2) Legislative, which is to be followed by Head

(3) Executive Council, and Head

(4) Department of Finance. MR. WELLS: Mr. Chairman, just so we do not aake any mistake and do not fail to vote money that must be voted, let us have a couple of matters cleared up. I realize that what we are obliged by atatutea to pay does not have to be voted. However, there are a couple of items, that it appears to me and I agree to be corrected if ·I am wrong, that it would not appear to me, we are presently obliged by statutes to pay, so therefore they would have to be voted. MR.

CHAIRMAN: I do not think we need to go into that now.· There will be plenty of occasion ·to come back, and before we close Committee of Supply, we have to make sure that everything we have to vote is voted, and we can take it .heading by heading. MR. WELLS: With all due respect Sir, there are a couple of Items under Ccmaolidate~ Fund Services, such as debt management, whi~ are no.t provided for in any statute, and which has t~ be discU8sed and voted, otherwise 4040

May 21, 1970 Tapa 0944 it cannot be paid. So I would ask Your Honour to have this cleared up now, because the Premier has made a statement that this does not - nothing in these preceding pages had to be voted. HR. CHAIRMAN: Order please·! The points that the bon. member is raising does not really concern the Committee at this time. The Heading that has been called is Heading.ll,Legislative, and without a doubt before we close the book and close the Committee sometime hence, if there are any other headings that we have not gotten around to, they will be dealt with then. HR.

WELLS: I accept your ruling Sir, but I would like you to confirm for the House the statement the Premier made is not necessarily the situation, that it has not now been decided, . nothing under Consolidated Fund Services need to be voted. The Committee has not decided that. MR. CHAIRMAN: As far as the Chair is concerned, Heading ( 1) has not been called. Heading (2) has been , called. HR. CROSBIE: Before we pass on, 1 would like to ask the Premier a question. Is the Government suggesting that we are not going to discuss in this Committee Consolidated Fund Services at all? Is that the suggestion? MR.

CHAIRMAN: Order. The bon. gentleman is completely out of order now. MR. CROSBIE: Why is it out of order Mr. Chairman? We were told yesterday that we would start from number one and proceed on through the book. But the bon. the Premier has made a statement that we are not going to discuss Consolidated Fund Services at all. Now this is a very important . issue. This is all the monies borrowed by the Province and the provision made to pay them. Provisions ~de to pay guarantees under loan and so on. Now is it the GOvernment's position that we are not going to discass Conaolidated Fund Services at all? MR.

CHAIRMAN: Order please. MR. SMALLWOOD: To a point of order, to correct the bon. gentleman. 1 did not say anything whatever about our ~ot discussing. I said not voting. We are not called on to vote for Bead (1). That is what I satd. 4641

May 21, 1970 Tape #944 Page4 Mil, CHAIRMAN: The poaition isthis, how the Chair feels is this: Is that each heading is a separate Motion, and the Motion before the Chair now is that Legislative (2) will carry, but we have to go down through the various Items. Before we close the Committee, if there is any Heading, there may be other Headings that may not be dealt with the Ca.aittee is always free to go back to those. We generally skip back and forth anyway. HR.

WELLS: Well might I ask the bon. the Premier on behalf of the Government to be so kind as to take into consideration the possibility. that by reason of the fact that I live in Corner Brook, this matter may COIIle up on a day when I cannot get back. And I would like very much to .ake a few comments on Consolidated Fund Services. Would the Premier ·be so kind as to consider allowing .this to be debated now? IIR. CHAIRMAN: Order please! The Heading that is called is Legislative (2). Shall Item 02-01-01 carry? MR. MURPHY: Juat before you go on, and I want to speak on the Heading.

I think I am perfectly entitled to do it1 and that is Legislative. And that that is a few thoughts/have struck me during this Session as far as this JV Legislature is concerned, the great People's Bouse we think so auch about. And the reapect ·and general approach to the carrying out of the business of the Province on behalf of the people. And I would just like to say-, and I am not going to be too long on it because my feelings on what transpired in this Chamber in this past few months have not been at all the best.

I think we have been treated, and I say "we", the Opposition, with a certain amount of contempt,if you like, the calling of orders, and a general discussion of business to come before this House, has not been done, in my opinion~in the best interests of the people of this Provin~e. I ~hink the people have witnessed this year, this Sesaion, tbinga that I feel mighty ashamed of, in regard to the some of the things that have transpired. Mr. Chairman, there have been Motions put on the Order Paper and have been there for weeksin -leference to Public Accounts,to other matters that have aot yet been called.

For years, I have been in this House, fer aome aiRht years, we have ur~ed the Government and the House to 4642 .

JW May 21, 1970 Tape #944 Page 5 ••t up working committees in this House. If anyone would care to observe, and I have brought this matter to the attention of the House before. Some of the notices on this Board out here with reference to different committees. I will say, and I can be corrected, that not one Committee has•met to discuss any of these matters and these are Standing Committees of this hon. House.

How in Heaven's name do we expect to conduct the business as it should be conductedl We have in Standing Orders as I said, certain Committees that t::;l'l:arec,.'"_:J Standing Committees that should I be operating, but in my opinion they have been completely disregarded. This House this year)in a great many instances,has been devoting itself to arguments, personal abuse, so on and so forth. I think a few things have come out of it that the people of Newfoundland are happy to know. That a certain hon. member has a Kennedy haircut, that a certain bon. gentleman has very tender toes.

I am only speaking 1 Sir, and I think I reflect the opinion~of a great many people of this Province, and we a• llll!mbers of this House, and I am sure I not only speak for this side .. but I am sure every side, every member elected by the people in his district to come here and do the business of the Province, and to sit down here day after day, hour after hour ,and flit away valuable time on foolis~, foolish arguments, instead of trying to get the business of the House done Mr~ Speaker, I must say that I am very, very disappointed. AN. BON.

MEMBER: The bon. gentleaan's wit now and then is appreciated . over here. MR. MIJRPHY: Wit is all right,- I can be witty . if I feel like it, but being abusive - and when people get ut~ and impute, hate, to different people in this House, I think Mr.

Chairman, we are a long ways off the track of what we are sent here for ~ ~~a I would like to go on record to say be that th.is is sU~~posed to/ a forum for debate, and during the past weeks here in this House, it vas aore like an autopsy or a coroner's inquest, rather than a House of Assembly, and I strongly resent the action of this Government in the so.-called Bud~et Debate for the cot~Plete indifference 4643

May 21, 1'970 Tape #944 Page 6 they show to this bon. House where they had five .ambers in a row from this side apeak- anybody who wants to see yesterday's~elegram·or the day before can see there, never known before. And I believe Mr. Chairman, that the affairs of this House have not been handled as they should have been by the Government. I think .it was contemptuous and completely irreaponsible, and that is why I stand now on this beading to discuss this. We will get into other affairs as I know as the Items are called.

But I would like to go on record Sir as saying, that this past Session of the House bas been?Ynsult to the people of this Province. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, on this Ite~ I would like to make some remarks also. The conduct in the proceedings of this House of Assembly Mr. Chairman, the way they have been conducted by the Government in this Session is abysmal.· A House of Assembly or a Parliament can only operate properly if there is co-operation and good-will and co-ordination between the Government and the other Parties or Groups in the House. behind the scenes.

That is how every other House of Assembly or Legislature in ~ada operates. That ·is how Parliament operates in the United Kingdom. That is how it operates in Ottawa. But in this House Mr. Chairman, in this Session, there bas been none. There bas been DO co-operation - no communication between the Government or the leader of the GoVernment in this House and certainly I can speak for this Group, for the Liberal Reform members that sit here. And I do not think with the Op~sition either. Mr. Chairman, we are not told in advance what business is going to eome before the House. That is a handicap immediately.

There has been instance after instance in this Session. We bad an instance last week where Supplementary Supply -we adjourned at six o'clock Mr. Chairman, doing the Ombudsman Bill. We had been doin~ legislation all day. We all e~eted we woul!,oing legislation that night, and instead of that, out of the blue without one word of warning, without any knowledge being given to us about it, the Supplementary Bill was ~rougbt in. That is not Mr. Chairman, how the House of Assembly !fhould be conducted or is conducted. It is the way that a Government that is going to use its

May 21, 1970 Tape #944 Page 7 ~jority to throw its weight around. operates, but not as it is done in other democratic Parliaments. There bas been instance after instance where we•do not know. Now I understand Mr. Chairman, for example in the House of Commons the leader of Parties or Groups meet behind the Chair, and they know what the business is going to be. All Groups in the House know several days ahead at least, and perhaps a week ahead, what the general business of the House will be during that week.

So that members have a chance to get prepared for it, or if a member over here does not want to discuss - he is not interested in certain legislat~on or certain parts of it, that gives him a chance to go off and do other work during the day, or to study up on what he is interested. This is how the thing is supposed to work. But we have to be ready. We have been forced Mr. Chairman .to be ready every day, in every minute of this Session, for whatever might come up.

We have never known when the Esti.mates might suddenly jump up, when the Budget Speech might suddenly start 1 ~hat Item of legislation is going to come up next. We have been handed out legislation here today. We have bad five or six Billa handed out today Mr • . Chairman. Where do we get a chance to look at them or study them if anything substantial comes along. Most of these appear to be minor. We are going to be in this House from ten thir~ to one o'clock every morning. ~rom three o'clock to six every afternoon.

From eight to eleven every night, except on Wednesdays,which is private members day~and Friday night. And busy all the time in this Rouse, how are we going to get a chance to study any of this legislation. There is no consultation by the Government with members of this side, u to what hours of the Rouse should be, none. No, the Government aaake the unilateral decision, "we are going to meet from ten thirty to one, three to six, and eight to eleven without any consultation at all.

Perhaps that is all right for several days a week, but we are not asked whether some other arrangement, or how many days a week this ·should be in effect, or will we have enough time to do aome research, or do aoae 4045

May 21, 1970 Tape 1944 Page 8 •tudy - no coneultation at all. Tba Govamtllaftt do•• not care .• doe• 'd1hta of not 1ive a Us about the,.minority RrGUpa· in thia Rouse, and that b not the riaht spirit or the right attitude Mr. Chait'llan; in my humble •ublliasion. I agree one hundred percent With the Leader of the Opposition that it is a tragedy that we have to listen to such obvious guff and nonaanae, as one member of the House saying that another meillber of the Houae hates him. Yet day after day 4G~6 .• ,.

May 945 .1970 Tape 945 page 1. not only in this Bouse but outside, ve have heard this kind of feeble tripe fro• one of the members of this House, the bon. the Premier saying repeatedly how other members of the Rouse bate him, hate him personally. What an insult to us, Mr. Chairman, the allegation or suggestion that anything we do or say in this House is governed by bate of another member. It is unheard of, I have never heard of it in any other Parliament of House in the whole country. It is untrue, number one., And it is not true,and 1~ is a foul thing to say.

And it should not be repeated, this constant attempt to arouse something, I do not know what it is supposed to arouse. The sympathy of the people of the Province for the Premier who keeps saying that he is hated, people hate him? This should cease. It is not t~, · it is undignified, and it is not going to work in any event. Mr. Speaker, other matters in connection with the House of Assembly. lt "is. time Mr. Chairman, that this Bouse of Assembly be moved into the twentieth ·century. We have Standing Orc!ers ~r. Chairman, that are a joke_,in my view. They are inadequate.

They were done up in 1949. need to be revised. I would suggest to the Goverament that they ·get Mr. Alistair Fraser, or some authority from Ottawa during the su.mer when the federal parliallellt is closed to retain him for a 1D011th or six weeks or whatever is necessa~ to come down to Newfoundland and do up a suggested rules of procedure for this House based on the practise in ·ottawa and in ·consultation with people who know what , with our own Speaker here and other people who know the rules. Let us get a revised 1110dem set of rules for this House of Assnbly. Mr.

Speaker, there are all kinds of discrepancies in these Standing Orders. The Premier and the Leader of the Opposition are allowed unlimited time to speak, every time they &l'ealt. Jet if there is another group in the Houae with a recognized chief - as the wr.clinK~. iQ Beauchesne is - or even an indel'endent member like the meeher for Labrador West, he is bound by the rules can only Sl'e&k ninety mi~utea, evea in the budget speech or the Addreea in Reply, two great occasions, can only &l'eak ninety .tnutes. 4C47

May 21, . 1970 Tape 945 page 2. NowL.~r. Chairman, whether the parties in this House like it or not in the future I feel sure there are going to be more than two parties represented in this Rouse. May be the R.D.P.,might be Liberal Reform, might be Social Credit, P.C., Liberal but there are likely to be more than two parties and the rules should be revised to take account of that Mr. Chair.an, the same as they have had to do in the Bouse of Commons at Ottawa. -. .

They have the Social Credit, Creditiste, N.D.P, Liberal, the House of Commons at Ottawa and they make provision for that so the leaders of those minority parties have some status and rights in the House also. MR.REARY: What about the cocktail parties? MR.CROSBIE: The cocktail parties that we have in this Bouse are few in nu.ber, the bon. minister knows. So, I would like to see that done.:.::~! suggest that Mr. Chairman to the Government. We have had a lot of debatesc on procedure in ·this House during the session and the rules certainly need revision.

I am sure that the Speaker and the Deputy Speaker will probably a1ree. That is the "suggestion I make, I would like to eee something atich more clear cut and 1110re up to dat:e than our present rules. Mr. Speaker, I au1sest strongly that the Government or the next Government whoever that is pay aoae atten~ion or give some consideration to the out-of-town members of thia Bouse. That is the meabers who ordinarily reaide outside St. John's. The ....Z,er for Gander is one. The hon. member for Humber East is another. The hon. eeaber for St. Barbe South is another.

The bon. •ember for Port cle Grave is another, although he does not reside very far away. The rules governing compensation of members Mr. Chairman, should most definitely allow travelling expenses for out-of-town Mlllbers. That is ..-era vb<:' caa.ute back and forth each week to this Rouse MR.WELLS: It should be retroactive. MR.CROSBIE: Yes it should be retroactive, just like birth control in some caaea. The aembers who have to ~te back and forth from Gander or the West COaet to this House every ~eek they are ordinary reaidents on the West Ceaat , lllellbera for Humber E*at and St. Barbe South.

They would go hoae on the waak-encla to their fdilies,. to cln a bit of business, All of this 464'8

Kay 21 1970 Tape 945 page 3. t. done Kr. Chairman out of their ovn pockets. Every member of this House gets $8500 compensation, that is salary and ezpense allowance. All of us in the House except,I think 7 the three or four bon. members I have mentioned live here in St. John's. Their families are here. So we do not have to travel back and forth every week. We are discouraging members, people from being members of this House who do not want to resi4.e in St. John's.

And we should change that by instituting a system of travel allowancesM twice a week back and forth from any part of the Island when the House is in session, for members who live outside St. John's. AN. HON.KEMBER: It could be abused - MR.CROSBIE: No it is done, how could it be abused - it is done in the Bouse of Co.aons in canadat9 any liiE!IIlber of the House of Co111110ns in Canada. is entitled to go back and forth to his constituency once a week, or some set number - MR. BARBOUR: The bon. member who is living in St.

John's, if he .baa to go i~o his district every second month, or every month - KR.CI.OSBIE: That 1.s a different problem, that can only be solved by - HR.ROBER'l'S: The House of Commons in Ottawa - MR.CROSBIE: Exactly KR.ROBERTS:.: ~ot ju•t the members - . all MR.CROSBIE:~ Right becaUse nearly/of them at Ot~awa1 of course, live outside Ottawa. MR.ROBERTS: Of come off it, most of them live in Ottawa. KR.CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, of the 265 members of the House of Commons at Ottawa, all of them originate from outside .Ottawa except the few who are elected in Ottawa districts.

The others have to have apartments and so on in Ottawa because they are going to b~ there nine or ten months af the year. ln,·this House, in this present House, 1 do not care if the allowances apply to to all members if they want to give travelling allowances back and forthAthe districts. Perhaps that would be all right too. But it is qu:l,te obviously Ullfair and wmng, that three or four ~~emben of this House have to spend so IIUC:h IDODey every week tr.avelling back. and forth to their reddeu-U they 40~9

-·· ... May 21 1970 Tape 945 page 4. are going to see their families. They have to come to St. John'• and stand their own hotel expenses, food expenses and all of it every week. And that .ia something that can obviously. could obviously easily be changed and should be changed. Why should all the members of this Rouse have to live in St. John~.s. I do not think they should and I do not think there should be any financial pressure on them to live here. :· Mr.ChaJ.T'IIIbi. ::something else.

There are five bon. members of this Bouae who have been treated shamefully, disgracefully, by the Government in connection with the facilities of this Bouse. There are five members ~~o have not been assigned office space except down on the third floor. No office space on the ninth ~r tenth floor of this building bas been asaigiled to five members of this Bouae. · One is using an office down on the third floor. We have nowhere to store files, we have nowher .e to meet, .. have nowhere to have a cigarette, we have nowhere"t:to get together for a conference within the confines of this ~n. Ro¥Se. llow perhaps, Mr.

Chairman, the public does not hear - it is not a areat electoral issue and I agree it is not - but it is a sign of contempt, it ill a sign of contempt for the Rouse of Assembly vhen the Bouse of Asaeably permits any ·of ita 1118111bera to be treated in that fashion. Row it ao happens that the members of the official opposition of this Rouse have been good enough to allow us to use their Colnmon Room to have a ~ke or to have a .chat occ:esionally. Alld we have been able to wander in and out of then, when we need to. And the officials of this Bouse, _we have used their office.

Ve have been out in their office, the Clerk and the Law Clerk and the rest of them. But thiS is not right Mr. Chairman. I am not going to debate it all over again. But I a.Y that it is a contemptible way to treat aembera of this Bouse • Not only that bat there is no secretarial assistance for the four members sitting here aa Liberal Reform Group nor the member for Labrador ·west. Ro secretarial assistance. That is not to say some of the 40~0

May 21 1970 Tape 945 page 5. 'girls retained for members on the other aide have not dona letters they have 1e tried to help out. But that ia ahameful Mr. Chairman, shameful, that/five 'members of this House .- now I do uot .need secretarial assistance I have a law office downtown and I can get it doue there - We have three out of-town members, Labrador West, St. Barbe South, aud Humber East •. No secretarial assiatauce for them at all, because they happeu to disagree with the Government to sit over here. This is wrong. This has to change Mr. Chairman. It should change.

The public accounts as been mentioned by the Leader of the Opposition, the motion was put down in this House Mr. Speaker, to appoint a Select Committee and the Public Accounts and the Auditor General's Report for the year euding March 31; 1969 has not beeu proceeded with. 'The excuse given was that the minister of Finance was ill. This has nothing to do with the Miuiater of Finance. There is an acting minister of Finance, the Department of Finance bas many officials. This cOIIIIIlittee could meet without the uecessity of having the Minister of Finance, the acting-minister can be there and all his officials.

Yet that .bas not been proceeded with, why aotT Bov is it going to be proceeded with now and the House is meeting morning, afternoou and night, on the estimates and legislation. That is another cavalier way to treat · the House. _ The Hon. the Leader of the Opposition referred to something else, which I agree with, the budget speech. The Budget Speech Mr. Chairman, we beard tile bon. the Premier state in the Hotise., some IIIODth::or two ago, how there were two great debates, two great debates,in this House. One the Address iu Reply aad the other the Budget speec~.

And every member would be participating iu these·great addresses, could speak on any topic. And the bon. the Premier spoke twelve hours on the Address in Reply and he was going to do twenty- four- MR.HO!JII: Order! The hon. member knows th:1t Mlt.CROSBIE: Alright Mr. Chairman. Well, the budget speech. So ve r.ome to the bud~et speech which was oue of these great speeches. Time after time Hr. Chairman, starting with last Thursda' lDDmiug at twenty to eleveu, wbea no 40~1

May 21 1970 Tape 945 page 6. one ~tood up on this side when the budget speech was called, bon. members opposite said;put the motion. In other words if I had not got up at twenty ·to ele•en last Thursday Mr. Speaker, the budget motion would have been voted ' on and there would have been no budget speech. So I was forced to go on. When I was finished Mr. Chairman, the same thing happened.

After each speaker on this side finished, no one would stand up on the other side and if nobody stood up on this side of the House, the members on the other side said put ... the motion 1 so we were forced up one after the other without any Government member speaking in between, no government ministers no defence made of the budget, nothing. And then last Tuesday night the same tactic was tried after the bon. member for Hexmitage finished his few remarks. Again no one would stand on the Government side, expecting that we would be forced over bere to finish off all our speakers.

Then of course the Government could have had a field day. They could have bad all the twenty-seven reaai~ing members talk for day after day with no one to rebut· them. A shabby tactic( To Row that 1 Mr. Chairman, is a shabby tactic. try to force all the Opposition to speak first. But the Government vas foiled last Tuesday when we allowed it to go to a vote. · But that is not the vay,Mr. Chairman,that the House of Assembly should operate,without any co-operation at all between the Government and the Opposition, none. I do not know if the bon. the Leader has had any advanced information on these points.

We certainly haVe never had. This is a rotten 1 disgusting way for a House of Ass~ly to be operated and for the members to be treated by a Government. And if I am here for another session Mr. Chairman, I hope that all this will be changed, 'fbat there be some recognition of the right spirit in· which to operate this House. Yes, I aa just aentioning if I am here~I vnuld like to see, I would like to see the change anyway, I agree with the bon. minister, or with the bon, lllellber. One last point Mr. Chairman, and that is this.

The salary of the Leader of the Opposition in my opinion, should be exactly the·same RS the aalary of a Cabinet Minister. Not $13,000. The present amount is I .think, 40c;2

May 21 1970 Tape 945 page 7. totals $8500 as a member of the House and another $5000 as the Leader~of the Opposition, $13.500. Mr. Chairman, MR..MURPHY: As much as the Parliament~ry Assistant. ' MR.CROSBIE: Not as much as the Parliamentary Assistant-to-the~Pr~ier is getting. Mr. Chairman, the Leader of the Opposition must devote his full time~whether this House is meeting or not, to the political affairs of this Province. And he is just as important to the good government of this Province as any member of the Cabinet. if not more important.

And the more active he is, and the more inquisitive, and the more intelligent, and the harder worker the better the Government is going to be for it. As the Government well knows. And if we are going to encourage people to get into politics' apart "from a few people who can perhaps afford the loss of income,then we are going to increase these salaries an~ the Leader of the Opposition should get the same as the Cabinet Minister 1 which with allowances is $20,500 a year, I believe. MR.MURPBY: Why all the sympathy for the other side at this timel MR.CROSBIE: The other aide? MR.MURPBY: the Leader of the Opposition.

MR.CROSBIE: Well it does not matter, you may be leader again in twenty years time, for the Opposition. Nobody ever knows in politics where he will end up. Mr. Speaker, but quite seriously I think, I do not care who the Leader of the Opposition is, I prefer to be leader of the Government rather than be Leader of the Opposition. I have also noticed who prefers to be leader of the Government also and not Leader of the Opposition. But the point is the Bon. Minister of Health has his eye on something too I would say - the Bon. the Premier bettex watch his back, better watch his back. Mr.

Chairman, quite seriously the Leader of the Opposition should be raised immediately, I would like to see the Government move it when these estimates go through, to $20,500 the same salary as a Cabinet Minister, he is every bit as important, he should be devoting every minute of his time t ·o that job. And finally, Mr. 4Gti3

May 21 1970 Tape 945 page 8. Mr. Chairman,I think there should be more money ·voted and by.the way if there is soother group in the House, another party, a recognized group, the Leader of that group should get extra also. Not as much as the Leader of the Oppositinn. Now the other thing is, Mr. Chairman, that the amount voted to the official opposition ·should be increased. We cannot move an increase. The Opposition, and the Government may be the Opposition in the next year or two who knows. The Opposition should have a research staff.

They should ha~ sufficient money to employ, I would say, people like one economist, one other person in that calibre. a research staff of at least two~ eertai~y one, enough money to employ one capable person and then secretarial help and enough money to really run a proper office. That is where the weakness,, there is a great ~eakness here. Here ~ is a Government that has six or seven thousand public servants to help and advise them. And they have four or five hundred at the top level. we .aee officials in here today to advise the acting~nister of Finance.

And the Opposition with nothing. not enough money to have a stenographer typist and a person to help around th~ office. And in any p~rliamentary system or in any province where this h.. been studied seriously it has been recommended that more money be granted . is by the Government to the Opposition and it/certainly done in :Ottawa. I forget the amount they get but ~hey get a very considerable grant. MR.MURPRY: Completely revolutionized it under Mr. Trudeau, he saw that. KR.CROSBIE: I think Mr. Trudeau supports that. So, these are just some of my observations Mr.

Chairman under the legislative sections of this vote I hope it does not all fall oa barren ground and that perhaps the Government will consider some changes • KR.WELLS: Mr. Chairman, I have a few brief remarks 4G54

May 218t. 1970 Tapa 946 JH - 1 HR. WELLS: . Mr. Speaker, I have a few brief remarks to make on this. I do not propose to go over any of the ground already covered by the Leader of the Opposition and the bon. member for St. John's West, although, I must say I agree wholeheartedly with what they have said. I am not dead certain that the rules need such extensive revision. I agree there is room for revision in the rules. Much of our problems that the Leader of the Opposition mentioned would be solved if the rules were applied with good will or the good will of reasonable men.

It would make a great deal of difference to the way in which the affairs of this House would be conducted. The rules have not been used, Mr. Chairman, they have been abused because of the lack of good will. This is what has happened and this is why the Nouse has encountered the difficulties that it has this session. I am not going to go back and refer to all of "the debates tn which this kind of thing has happened. Just look at what has happened here this morning. That is all we have to do if we want to see an example of the way this has been done.

No problem at all if you want to see an example of abuse of members and abuse of rules. We have not been permitted this morning to discuss first as we normally do in every other session the consolidated fund services

section of the estimates. This is the normal way of operating. The Government has not the good will, it had not even the good will to answer the question that I posed whether or not the7 would consider debating it now. This is the kind of abuse that I am talking about, this is the kind of ill-will or lack of good will that creates the difficulty. We have never had an real opportunity to be prepared for anything because there has been no warning and this ia attributable directly. I do not know that anybody hates anybody else in this Bouse, I cannot say that with certainty.

But I can say with absolute certainty that there is a total lack of good will or even medium good will. This is the pr~mary cause of all of these difficulties, the primary cause of the difficulties here now. Today is Thursday, we go on through the estimates today and tomorrow. Monday is a holiday. If the weather is bad C•t' if I have another very important eo.d.bllmlt I may not be in here ~esday morning. So Tuesday morning the ~055

May 2ls.t, 1970 Tape 946 JM- 2 KR. WELLS: consolidated fund services section, the Government decides they will then discuss it. I get back Tuesday afternoon or Wednesday moTning and it is too late, what you had to say cannot be said. I do not think it is entirely unreasonable for any member to ask the Government to give some kind of consideration to the position that other members find themselves in particularily when it would de the Governme~t no haTm whatsoever, none at all to do it and that can only be attributed, Mr.

Speaker, I do not attribute ,! it to hate but it can only be attributed to 111-~ill or a total absence of good will. This baa been the primary cause of our probleM. MR. WORNELL: The bon. gentleman turns words around so that he can make his point ••••• MR. WELLS: No, no, not really, not really. MR. SMALLWOOD: Any more than he could conduct la~ cases in court when you were in here. MR. WELLS: That is Tight. MR. SMALLWOOD: How could he? MR. WELLS: I could not very well do that, could I? MR. SMALLWOOD: He is not here to conduct law business. MR. WELLS: Sure,that is right. MR. SMALLWOOD: Not here. HR.

WELLS: That is Tight. MR. SMALLWOOD: Not here in this House. MR. WELLS: Let me say this, Mr. Speaker, and this is probably the best place to say it. I have to make a living for myself and my family. I do not make it out of this House, it is impossible as I spend most of it on travelling expenses and living expenses here. 1 sit on this side of the House. I have ! not the good fortune to be appointed to a commission that will give me an additional $6,000 or $B,OOO a year. HR. MURPHY: HeBT; hear~ Well spoken. MR.

WELLS: I sit on this side of the Hat·1se and I receive my honest salary of a total $8,500 much of which I spend in travelling and hotel expenau while I am here. The Government has no considet ·ation for anybody else on t'lis side of 40~6

May 2le_t. 1970 Tape 946 JM - -;, MR. WELLS: the House. They do not show any at any time. I have ne:er seen any evidence of it and for the Premier to sit there and slur at me because I practice law to make a living is a disgusting preformance of a tragic figure that has reached that stage. He should have been gone long ago if he has gotten to this stage of development. It is disgusting to see it. Not on'ly should the expenses for members who live outside of St.

John 1 s be increased, I agree with that the expense allowance, it is only fair and reasonable but in my humble opinion the salaries of all members of this House should be increased above the $8,500 level. No wonder members who sit on the Government side have to accept appointments to commissions and they are forever indebted to the Government because this is the means by which they live. MR. ROBERTS: ~ou do not have to slur every member on this side. MR.

WELLS: Well, alright I kno~ of two members who do not reaeive it, who do not receive anytfting additional, anything additional other than what the members on this side receive. MR. ROBERTS: Make your points but knock off the personal abuse. MR. WELLS: I am not personally abusing anybody. If the Minister is concerned about it he can express · his opinion when he gets up. MR. MUIPIIY: It is not personal. MR. WELLS: That is right. MR. ROBERTS: (Itllludible) • MR. WELLS: Look, if the Minister will be quiet I will express my opinion and he can say what he wants to later and do not wave his hand at me.

The ~bers of this House, Mr. Speaker, are paid a total, travelling allowance and salary of $8,500. Now as the bon. member for Bonavista South,who claims and I have no reason whatsoever to doubt him that he visits his district very frequently and incurs expense by doing so, there·is no doubt about that, he does and perhaps if all bon. members o! this House paid quite as much attent- ion to their diatricts as that hon. member does they would have less trouble getting elected when the time comes. I give him that compliment because I think he deserves 1-t. But all bon. members, Mr.

Chairman, not just the members who sit on this side,should be paid a higher salary be~ause that is now obv~ous. ~G~7

May 21st' 1970 Tape 946 JM- 4 MR. WELLS: We are told we work only three months a year or four months a year or two aonths a year whatever the newspapers say when t~ey comment on this sort of thing or whatever the Premier says when he comments on it, this may be true but where · else, everybody is not as fortunate as I am to have another income. I have an income from a law practice that I carry on all the rest of the year and my partners assist me in carrying on while I am in here. I have that good fortune, so does Mr.

Chairman have that good fortune. the hon. member for Bonavista South does not have that good fortune or the hon. member for Hermitage does not have that good fortune. Where else are they going to get their income if they have no other meaas1 Paying such a low salary as is paid could only induce bon. members of this House to seek appointment to commission and thereby possibly, I do not say that it doea,but possibly prejudice the opinion that they can er~ress to this House, possibly it could cause that and this is wrong.

They should be paid a sufficient eaolument so that they do not have to worry about having enough to live on for the rest of the year.

They should have a sufficient income that nobody can question their motives or can sa~ to any bon. member, "Sure you vote with the Government or you are supporting the Government because the Government is seeing to it that you are getting an extra $6,000 a year as * lllember of the Power Commission." Nobody should be able to point a finger at an hon. member and"say that and until such time as 9overnment sees fit to recommend an increase or to put forward to this House a motion for an increase all the hon. members who do support the Government are, you can see why they are accused of doing so in those circumstances, as nearly as I know there are only two.or three hon. members sitting in this Rouse who do not receive soaething, sitting on the Government side1 who do not receive something beyond the $8,500 a year.

No wonder people cast slurs and aspersions on the House and the members of the Rouse and we are all tainted with it. If only they stop to think that the the extra expenditure, maybe members should receive $15,000 a year, maybe that is not at all unreasonable and quite frankly I de not think it is unre&8onable. Haybe if members did receive salaries like that the public would 40ri8

May 21st. 1970 Tape 946 JM- 5 HR. WELLS: have a higher regard for them, we would attract top quality people to run for election to this Rouse and nobody would be able to cast the slur on the member who ia appointed to the Power Commission or the Bell Island Jerry Commission or some other commission. Let us be honest and do things fairly and do it fairly for all hon. members of this Rouse. Thb is one of the things thathave been wrong. Maybe it benefits the Government, aaybe the Government wants the members indebted to them, perhaps that is the reason for it but it is grossly unfair.

I take strong exception to the slurs that the Premier has made,on a-half a dozen occasions at least during this session of the House,to my law practice in Corner Brook. If he can point to anything that is at all dishonourable or dishonest or improper about the way I conduct my practice I suggest that he go straight to the lBW society and make his complaint. 1 .earn my living honestly by hard work, by putting in the time to earn it and deserve it and by giving professional services in return for it.

I do not get any favours or anybody directed to my law firm thatthas to do. business with the Government or anything like that. I earn mine on my own merits and the Premier. has no justification whatsoever for these slurs~ Despicable• disgusting, to see a man in his position do such a thing. Mr. Chairman, much of this is due to the lack of good will, The present situation that we are ~n today,where I am unable to debate a couple of matters there that I would like very much to debate•can only be attributed to this lack of good will. MR. WORNELL: Why do you not try to get a •••••••••• MR.

WELLS: But it should not have to be done, Sir, repetitiously. Facade should not have to be used where honest men of sincere good will sit down to debate anything. This is what. is lacking here, sincerity and good will, both. MR. WRNELL: But the Premier lii·!!·:..... try to do something like that. MR. WELLS: Well, two wrongs do not make a right. Another classic exaaple of the lack of good will and I cannot help but repeat some of the things the bon. member for St. John's West has said in this respect because I believe I -raised it first, I raised it also last year, Mr. Chairman, when I was over here 4G59

Hay 2bt, 1970 Tape 946 .11'1 - 0 MR. W!LLS: in this poa~tion. It is the total lack of good will that would allow the Government to treat bon. members of the House in the way that they have treated the member& who formed the Liberal Reform group and the bon. member for Labrador Weat with respect to accomodation.

There is no accomodation whatsoever provided for us anywhere within the area of the ninth and tenth floor, the House of Assembly area of this House 1 and the Government has the audacity to put that office up in the corner and stick the name of the hon. the Minister without Portfolio and member for Labrador South on it. I do not attribute any good will to that individual member.

I see no evidence whatsoever of it, not in the slightest and I do not want anybody to, particularily the press, to misread my comments and attribute any il]...:will toward that hon. member because I aee no evidence at all of any such ill-will. I know where the blame lies, I know where the responsibility lies, I feel very confident of that and I think it is a disguis~ing pe~formance. I too was a Mfnister without Portfolio for a while and I needed a separate office up there like I needed a hole in the head.

The bon. the member for Harbour Main has been a ~nister without .Portfolio for perhaps thirteen to fifteen years and sat in this House and has never had an office anywhere and bas not needed one, has not ask for one, would have more principle than to accept it and waste the space on it. I think the hon. the member for Harbour Main knows very well the high regard and high respect that 1 have for hfm. This is a classic example of the ill will. I do not say it is hate, I do not think the Premier really hates any of us really.

It is the total absence of good will and perhaps a presence to some degree of ill-will that has brought these thiDBa about. The rule*, Mr. Chairman, can be rendered totally meaningless and totally useless where the Government co~n~s.• et~ong majority of votes as they do and they w~~h ~~ ~e rules in any particular way that they want tofhey ~a-do and it has been done this session on numeroua occasions. Mr. Chair.aa, not until this changes, not until there is a change in attitude will there be any changB in the way in which business is conducted in this House~d that change cmtnot c0111e quiek enough,- Sir.

Thsak you·, Mr. Chairman. . .

Hay 21st. 1970 Tape 946 JK - 7 . MR. EARLE: Mr. Chairman, 1 do not wish to labour the points which have been aade. Many of them are valid and are good and long past due as far as being said to this House. The only thing which really worries me in this whole Legislature procedure is the respect which the public and the members themselves hold for this House.

I think if we once lose the respect of the public and respect for each other we may as well go berry picking or forget that we are governing the Province. 1 felt that when I was on the other side of the House I respected the members on this side and behave as a gentleman towards them. I still do the same from this side of the House.

I respect many of them and act as a gentleman towards them and I certainly am one that is not child enough to feel that jibes and good natured fun and cross chat and so on are not part of the Parliamentary procedure. ~hey .est certainly are and they are part and parcel of keeping us awake and keeping us on our toes~ ~ ; Some of the terms which have been used in this session do downgrade the dignity of this House.

The fact that a person is classed as a perjurer or a breaker of oaths and "other cat-trap of that nature take.s from the dignity of this Bouse. ·. : If such were true that person should be fired out of this House, he should not be allowed to sit here,that is not true. Another case;of hate rising like waves of steam from this side of the House is utter, unforgiveable nonsense.

We are here to do a job for our me.bers, for our constituents~the same as those on the other side of the Bouse are and ff we have to ask awkward and embarassing questions or if we disagree with the Government there is no reason that such exception should be taken to these remarks.

It seems to me that once a gentleman crosses from the other side to this side of the Bouse he immediately becomes a second class citizen open to all him sorts of abuse, no holes barred, any words can be said aboutApublically, out of the House or in the Rouse and this in my opinion is lowering the dignity of the House to the point that the ~embers of this House themaelves are not safe from public abuse. We have seen this in instances and we wonder what the young people are doing.

There was a disgraceful instance at the airport by which all of us were horrified 'by the treatment given to the Preatier and we detest the thought that young peop~e are resorting to drugs and all of this 40G1

May 21st, 1970 Tape 946 JH- 8 MR. F..ARLE: aort of thing because they are b.wildered. The example• set them by their alder• and it waa baing set in thia Houaa aa well ~• anywhere else leave• them no •tandards on which to stand and I feel that we contribute to their delinquency as much as they do to their own. It is a disgraceful reflection upon the way we have been behaving in this session of the House and I for one am bored and hope that it will be discontinued. A small instance, when members become Cabinet Ministers it does not make them God and they should not think so.

I came in this House one day durlns -:the session rather late to get up in the elevator, I could not get in the elevator because one of the Ministers had ·his constituents before that elevator and had instructed the man who controlled the elevator not to let me in. Well, a member·of this House,coming in this House certainly takes precedence over some constituents. MR.. SMALLWOOD: Say that again? MR. EAIU.E: I could not get tb,this floor because I was told I had to wait for another elevator, there was a bunch of constituents waiting to come up here, instructed so by one of the Minister on the other side.

If that is respect£ng the dignity of the House, I would like to know what it is. This sort of treat- ment, the complete downgrading and ignoring of the rights of the persons on this side of the House cannot be tolerated. It not only hurts us but it hurts every member in the House. It is absolutely disgraceful. This is a point which I think has been made much better than I am making it by other members on this side. But 1for goodnes sake and for the sake of the future of Government in this Province,let us act as gentlemen towards each other and let us act as gentlemen outside. MR. SMALLWOD: Mr.

Chairman, I listened with great interest and not entirely without sympathy to the remarks made from the other side with reference to the amount of money that the House votes to the Opposition to maintain their office and their research and their executive staff and the remarks made about the fact that some bon. •embers of this House do not live in the city and have to maintain double residence, continue their residences back where they live and malntain other reeidence here either by way ·of an apArtment or hotel suite or hotel room 40G2

Kay 21st, 1970 Tape 946 .JH - 9 HR.. SMALLWOOD: and in any case have to travel back and forth each way. It used to be the case that they would travel by train and get a pass. A~l members of the House used to r~ceive a paaa and I guesa they still do but there is no passenger train to ride on. I do not know if the paaa is any good for the bua. AN BON. MEMBER: Yea, it 1a good for the bua. MR. SMALLWOOD: It is good for the bu~, is it but the accomodation is the much more serious thing. I have listened with some sympathy to these points.

I h.ve listened also with interest and some sympathy to the suggestion that members of the House are not paid enough, do not receive enough sessional indeminity. In the first place we do not get a salary we get a sessional indemnity, and do not get enough contribution from the House toward our expenses. What members receive is under tvo headings, sessional indemnity and sometimes it is called sessional pay and expenses or something toward the members expenses in serving the people.

Travelling to his district, going constantly to his district, meeting his constituents, entertaining his constituents when they come into the city, contributing to iarden parties, picnics, sociables and concerts throughout, MR. ROWE: Church building funds. HR.. SMALLWOOD: Church building funds and all kinds of good causes throughout the Province and every member has to do that. I am sure that it costs me ten per-cent, it costs me much more than ten per-cent actually, I spend more; :..ada­ more than ten per-cent of my three incomes, I have three.

I have the incoae as a .amber of this Rouse the sessional indemnity, I have the income in the fora of an expense allowance toward my cost of political expenses and I have my salary as a Minister and I pay substantially more 40 G·3

May 21st. 1970 Tapa 947 PK- 1 MR. SMALLWOOD: and I pay substantially more than ten percent of that to good causes, substantially more than ten percent, it would not be twenty. But it is cloaer to twenty than it is to ten, and in doing it incidentally I always feeling that I am paying hostage to fai~h. There are an awful lot of people in Newfoundland lese fortunate than 1 am, who get an awful lot less money than I get, and I just like doing it anyway.

But bon. members whose only income is the sessional indemnity and the expens~ allowance, the two together coming to a total of $8500 a year~are citizens who are making a sac.rifice to serve the public. They are making a sacrifice. There are in this Province today · at least 10,000 persons, hear thiss if 1 had a bell,I would ring it, hear this - there are at least 10,000 persons in Newfoundland at this moment who rec~i~ more income than members of the House of Aase111hly get, more than that $8500 a year. There are at leut 10,000 persons, and God Bless them, good luck to them!

I wish there were 20,000, 50,000, but there are at least 10,000 getting more pay than the .eabera of this House get under the two headings. sessional indemnity and expense allowance. tptalliag $8500 a year. at .least 10,000.

There are at least SOO~ . persons in Newfoundland getting more income than does the Premier of the Province under all beadings, under all three beadings, what the Premier gets as a member of the Bouse, the same as every other member gets, what the Premier gets by way of expense allowance, what every other member geta,and what the Premier gets as a Minister, put all that together and there are at least SOO persona 1D Newfoundland earning salaries of more than that. I am talking about salaries. I 8111 not talking about profits, what buainesnen make in their business.

I am talking about salaried men, There are at least 500 persona in this Province today who received more salary than the Premier of the Province receives under all these headings, sessional indemDity, expense allowance and his salary as Premier. Maybe that is right, maybe that is as it ought to be. Well, maybe it is as·it ought to be, lliaybe. Some would say that I • getting paid twenty-eight times 4(j'G4

xa, 2bt. 19'70 Tape 947 Pit - 2 MR. SMALLWOOD: more than I am worth, but another Premier might be wonh tveaty-eight 1110re than that,than the amount that I do get. But apart from the person, the occupant of the office, the office at present is worth a total, or what do I get? I get alightly more than the minister, do I? I get. ~~00 more than the ministers 'get, and I get a free car. The ministers only get an allowance of. $lp00 toward the cost of running their own cars, but I get the free use of a Government car. Every day of my life I meet men who could buy and sell me.

If 1 had to pay my bills 1 would have to go down to the court and plead insolvency, w.y personal billa. I am insolvent. I have not beeb· liD declared in a court, but if all my creditors were to ~ome at me together, and insist on immediate pa)'lllent I would have to go to court and plead insolvency and so be declared. Now that is not because my salary and sessional pay and expense allowance all put together were not enough for me to live, they are more than enough for me to live there, enough for me to give tJWay . well over ten percent of it each year.

It is that I have made investments , that have been poor iuveStmeata, they have ~o•1jielded, they have not been as profitable as 1 h~tl.d they would be. I hope someday that they may, if ever they do, I will get out of debt. But if I had to pay up right now, I would have to declare iuolvency. But th4lt is purely a personal matter. It ill a far cry from what is so frequently hinted,· so frequently~apered around, a far cry from the story that is whispered around. Five hundred at least in Newfoundland today who draw more pay than the ministers in this Cabinet.

There are in the Civil Service today, there are at least a couple of hundred persons who draw more pay than the Premier does, a couple of hundred at least. there are Civil Servants in Newfoundland today, public servants,who draw double what the Premier drawa, doubl~. There are judges around today that are drawing much more than the Premier draws. MR. ROWE, F .W. Twice. 4GG5

May 21st. 1970 Tape 947 PK- 3 HR. SMALLWOOD: Twice, no. Oh, the salary of Premier there are, if you just take the Premier's salary - MR.MURPRY: The Deputy Minister's. MR. SMALLWOOD: Every Deputy Minister in Newfotmdland makes much more than the Premier makes, he makes from half to three times as much, £very Deputy Minister of Newfotmdland tod•y is making from half as much more to twice as much more to three times as much more than I make as Premier. MY salary is $11~000 is it? . MR. JONES: $12,000. MR.

SMALLWOOD: $12,000 my salary as Premier, and there are Deputy Ministers vho make $14,000, $15,000,$18,000, $20,000, $24,000, that is twice as much. What is the highest Deputy Minister? $24,000? MR. JONES: $28,000 and $30,000. $30,000 and I am thei~ boss. l'tk SUALLWOOD: And I went for fifteen years as Premier of this Province and Minister of Economic Development. but. I have been broke. there has never been a time when I was not, that I did not have two portfolios and in the old days if a man had two portfolios he drew the two salarie~.

Sir Richard ~quires always drew the salary of Minister of Justice and Premier, or Colonial Secretary and Premier and so did every other Premier, except maybe Mr. Koa.roe, wfto for a while at any rate was a wealthy man and did not draw both salaries. It 18·all very well, however, for an honourable member to get up on the other aide and make an eloquent plea in behalf of all the forty-two members of the House for a higher sessional indemnity, it is all very well for one bon. member to do it. Be c:.aDDOt move it. He can only suggest and he is only one. MR. WELLS: I would move it, if I could. MR.

SMALLWOOD: He would move it, if he could, but he ia only one, and be ia the only one who has mentioned it. No one else on the other side has ~tioned it. MR. MURPHY: We have not come to that

section yet, I might suggest to the bon. the Premier - 4006

May 21st. 1970 Tape 947 PIC - 4 MR. SMALLWOOD: Yes, we are, we are under that heading too. MR. MURPHY: We are on the heading, but I think we are being very irrelevant because we have not come to allowances or anything else as yet. MR. SMMI.WOOD: 201-01 ia allowance, that is the one we are on. That ia it. that is the one we are on. That ia the very one. MR. MURPHY: No, I spoke on the heading, l.egislative No. 2. MR. SMALLWOOD: Yes, the bon. gentleman did, Re did. He did, and so far ve ~re all d~ing that same thing.

We are having a general discussion of the heading Legislative although his Honour did call 201-01 1 he did, I heard him. MR. MURPHY: Did he? MR. SMAU.WOOD: 'lea. But we have all ignored that. MR. HYRDEN: We cannot debate on the first heading. MR. SMAIJ..WOOD: Well the first heading - Legiala~ive is what we are sort of discussing at the moment. MR.. MURPHY: I spoke generally on the Legislature, I •••• MR. SMALLWOOD: Mow we heard from one bon. member. let us face it, Mr. ~. Let us face it, we are being cowardly politicans at the moment, that ia what we are doing, we are being cowardly politicans.

I can move it, I am ld:l.niater of Finance, or I can ask one of my colleagues to move it, that ve raise the sessional pay, I can move it. But I am not going to take the onus of moving it, I am not going to have the news go out. if the news is that the whole House agrees, all aides Liberals, Tories, renegades and all, if they all agree, Okay, somebody will move it. MR. WELLS: Just one remark so that he can go on, just one remark.

If the Premier 1 with the consent of the BOuse, if all members consented, I realize that the normal practice is that it cannot be done, if all members consented to allow it to be done, I have not the slighest hesitation to move that they be increased and to sit down with the parties before ••••• MR. SMALLWOOD: The better way to do it is to have it indicated clearly that 4GG7

May 218~. 1970 tape 947 PI: - 5 MR. ~HALLWOOD: there is no dissent, that no one dissents, if there is unanimous feeling in the Bouse that the pay ought to. be increased, if there is such a thing. someone will move it on this side. it must come from the Queen's ministers. That is not rules that is the lonstitution. that is the whole system of our British Parliamentary Government. There will be no question about it and if it is moved it will be carried. But the onus must be the onus of the whole House, not the Government. MR.

WELLS: I would suggest that shortly a committee of all secRions of the House sit down and discuss what might be agreeable. MR. SMALLWOOD: I do bot think that there ia any need of that. I think if the feeling is universal. why be . uhamed of it. There will be someone the N.D.P. will come out and say that the so and so:have gone and raised their own pay. Okay, every time that has been done in any Parliament in the world 1 it is said, and it is forgotten three days afterwards. When they raised the pay in Ottawa to. $18,000 a year. I often think Mr.

Chairman, I often think, I work so hard in my job, I do you know, I really do, 1 work bard and if. hard work can do it, I earned my pay. ·And any man, no nonentities. no nincompoops ever getll elected to the House of Commons, not from Newfounclland anyway. Jut if you could imagine an dincompoop ~ getting eleu):ed to the House of eo-,ns, be would go straight in at $18,000 a year. And I do not say that he doea not earn it 1 I do not say he is riot worth it.

Every member of the House of Assembly in Quebec. every member starta··aff.;.with $18.,000 . a year 1 not only the House of C0111111011s. but the House of Assembly and all across Canada they have been raising the rates with inflation. We have been struggling in the Government to try and :find the 11011ey • millions it is costing, aillions to find money to pay more salary to Civil Servants, because we know they need· it, and we are struggling to find the money to do it.

Jut to give ourselves an increase while ve are at it her-e, and no one can aay ue ''nay" ve decided to do it, if n ;.is the feeling of the Houae 1enara11y. We could move that the vote. what ia the vote to the Opposition? MR. WELLS: $10,000 or more. 4 0 G 8

Hay 21st. 1970 Tape 947 Pk - 6 MR. SMALLWOOD: $10,000 this eould be increased to $15,000 a year, whieh would enable them to take on another member on their staff, maybe it would not be the highest kind of pay.

We eould move that an additional amount, travelling and accommodation allowance be granted by the House to members who are not domiciled in the eity, who do not have their penDaDent homes in the city, there eould be an extra allowance, so much a day while the Bouse ia iD session, for the duration of the House of $10.00 a day, $15.00 a day or some amount to go toward may be not to pay the full cost, but to go toward the eoat of outport members who come in to the Capital City, you know bringing their boviae~ and rural and rustic atmosphere with them, which we smart city dwellers love to see because we regard it as something that ia quaint, ~ like to see the out harbourmen coming in here and sitting w~th us, and we might agree that the House pay something toward,~el\ ~the outport merchant comes to tawn 11 you know, pay something toward it • .Aa.-BGil._- Member; Inaudible.

HR. SMALLWOOD: Well that would be a matter, of_i:ncreasing the allowance, and the way to do that is this, if you increase the sessional indemnity, the total a.ount then two-thirds of that is indemnity and one-third of it is expenae•~- and so the expense allowance goes up automatically, when the total is 1Dereaaed. But it is a quea~'on of, I do not know, let us{just , thinking aloud here on my feet~ if you have five outport members, and it could be twenty aoother ttme, after the next general ele~tion, you could very well have far more than five or six outport men sitting in this House.

If this new trend of selecting local people, people who live in the constituen~~ be the candidates and the members, you might have ten, fifteen or twenty persona sitting in this Bouse who only visit St. John's because their duty requires them to come to the House, but whose homes are back where they live. So if the Bouse meets on an aVerage four months a year, you will not always have renegades, you will not always have long drawn out sessions, uaneceaaarily ·long, but you could figure fairly say four months, four months 4669

May 21st. 1970 Tape 947 PK - 7 MR. SMALLWOOD: is 120 days. $10.00 a day. would be $12000 would it? And that $1200 a year should go a~ong way toward taking care. that is if you have that many people. MR. MYRDEN: Remember that is taxable too. HR. SMALLWOOD: That amount is taxable. yes. that would not be regarded as, well no, if you - MR. WELLS: Not if you paid the actual expenses, it would not be. But if you gave an allowance, it would be taxable. MR. MYRDEN: But it will only allow you to deduct one-third. MR. SMALLWOOD: One-third of the whole. MR.

WELLS: But if the actual travelling bill as submitted were paid, that may be different. MR. SMALLWOOD: Well, if the fee were $10,000 a year, that every member received, all the members of the House then will be getting up close to the well paid paper makers and mine workers and men in Labrador, and in Labrador City and Wabush and Churchill Falls. A lot of the members would be getting up, well up within range of hundreds of even thousands of people in Newfoundland tha~ would Thank God~ getting better pay. than we •~ getting here in this House.

But all I need is a universal agreement, it is not enough for the renegades, I want the Tories too and the Liberals, all of us in the House here, so it does not become a partisan issue, so it does not become that one is accusing the other. In our hearts we all know the rates should be raised. But no one party should be expected to take the blame for it. If it is blame. I db not think it is blame, I think our /1 people will just say;well, after al~they do work hard and they are worthy of it: I think most of them will say that. MR. WELLS: I~ can be totally jU.tified. MR. SMALLWOOD: I think it can be justified. HR.

MUitPHY: Mr. Chairman, when I spoke, I spoke on the heading on, I think, 4G70

May 21st. 1970 Tape 947 Pk - 8 MR. MURPHY: and I did not go into salaries or any other estimates, the operation of the Legislature. Now we are on number

(1) I presume which covers allowances. Now we all this morning I suppose should feel like very happy people, we are all~discussing raises so on and so forth, and the fact that I do not disagree, because since I have come into this House I feel very honoured to be elected to this House. I feel that I should be contributing just perhaps a little bit more to my duties ~s a member than I have and I have devoted eighty percent of my time.

But I just cannot afford to because I have to work outside and my business being the nature it is, where I have to meet people, make contacts with them daily I just cannot do it, I dropped - MR. SMALLWOOD: Would the hon. gentleman allow me, I just remembered that there was something I was going to say and did n~t say, Cabinet Ministers across Canada received certain salaries, it varies from one province to another. But the Leadexsof the Opposition in a good many cases, not al~ get., the same rate of pay as a minister, and I think if it is right in other provinces, it should be right here.

And I would include tha& in this series of ideas that I have~just been expressing. MR. MURPHY: Thank you for the kind words, Mr. 'Premier. MR. SMALLWOOD: I do this because I ezpect maYbe to be Leader of the Opposition ten or fifteen years from now, and I will want a better salary. MR. MURPHY: Chances are if the Premier runs th•t is the job he will take in the next election, the odds are about ten to one. But, Mr. Chairman, when I rise in this House I i:ike to speak what t. in my mind, I mean I do not go in for any fancy frills. A few short weeks ago I brought into this 4671

May 21st, 1970 Tape ~~!) .JM - J. HR. MURPHY : A few·ahort veeks ago I brought into this House and I have always given this bec•u•e I think this is perhaps the highest honour that any man can be paid., in his own Province or in his own nation to represent the people and it carries ., with it a certain amount, I think, of dignity in the first instance, respect and general regard for his fellow man. A few short weeks ago I brought in a report of a Royal Commission that had been established in Nova Scotia to actually access the functions of legislatures as such and this is particularily in Nova Scotia.

Now what I am going to say, it is not partisan at all, 1 do not want it to be partisan political talk, but in this little Province and I will repeat it again we have 228,000 voters,in 19~6. Nova Scotia had 456,000. We elected forty-two members and Nova Scotia elected forty-six members. In Nova Scotia they have eleven Cabinet Ministers as such, eleven portfolios and one Minister without portfolio . As I said, in this Province we have forty-two members as against forty-six in Nova Scotia with about double the number of voters. In our House now we have eighteen Cabinet Ministers - AN BON. MEMBER: Seventeen. MR.

MURPHY: Seventeen. Seventeen Cabinet Ministers. I think it is all out of porportion to our number of voters. Now I feel, quite honestly, that any man on that side, that is a Cabinet Minister for $20,000 a year, we have plumbers and electricans earning more money basically and in various parts of the industry it is.poasible but my great objection, Mr. Chairman, is this that ve are not set up as a Government to do the job properly. There are too many people with portfolios, there are too many memb~rs with stipends on the other side of the House.

Now this is being critical of the actual set up of this present Government but I do not think this Government is g.oing to continue for- ever, I hope to God it is not, quite frankly. but we have to consider those following us and this is the attitude I am trying to adopt. I look at the member for Humber East, Gander, so on and so forth and I would like to know, any men that want to tell me, particularily the member for Humber East and I can include the member for Gander also and many others, what thei? .net income from their $8500 was in the year 1969, 1 would like to know? ~~: 1 will tell him.

The approximate cost of travelling back and forth 4072

May 21st. 1970 Tape 948 JM- 2 MR. WELLS: to St. John's and living in the hotel runs at $200.00 a week, that is the average cost. $200.00 per week, hotel and meals and travel as well and limousine and all of this go under $200.00 per week. AN BON. MEMBER: You do not have to live very luxuriously either that is for sure. MR. WELLS: No and you do not have to live very luxuriously to spend that much •. It runs at $200.00 per week. For my own part, now other members may be different I do not know, but for my own

part I can say honestly to the Leader of the Opposition and to the committee that it cost me, taking into account the $8500. that I get, it cost me, taking that into account, $15,000 a year to be a member of this House because if I am not in my law office in Corner Brook I do not do any work and I do not get paid and my secretaries have to be paid, the rent has to be paid, the light has to be paid and everything else has to paid.

The net cost to me per year to be a member of the House is $1500~ Alright if I am pJ:epared to pay the _cost okay, ' that is my business, I am not griping to any­ body about it but I think we do have in this Province a ludicrous situation at the moment and I quote the Premier, "We are being c~ardly politicians if we do nothing about it." MR. MURPHY: Mr.

Chairman, I would like to thank the hon. member and I think if we are going to discuss this thing now we do not want to do it around corners or in back rooms. ~ do not want it to be reported that the hospital workers could not get their full raise and so on and so forth. .could not get their raise, but here the members of the House of Assembly,in a friendly little get together, decided that they would give themselves so much of an increase whatever it might be. Now I referred particularily to these members, my colleague on my left,I know1 is a commission agent and judging from my own

part I know what it means.lt means to~e that in 1969 I dropp~d som~thing over sixty per-cent of my income for my own business. Naturally if I have to see people I cannot leave a store or a business and say to John Jones, "Look you look after it till I come back .," I mean if I am not seeing people I am not selling life insurance and this is not a plug for my business but just a statement of fact. Well, it has reached a stage, · Mr. Chairman, where I feel that the time 4073

May 21st, 1970 Tape 948 JM- 3 MR. MURPHY: has now come to review the complete set up and it is one of the things that I have and one of the things that in meetings over the past year with some of my c.olleagues in my own party and I think the member for Gander will agree with me that this is one of the things that will be discussed. I have mentioned it before, a redistribution in this Province, we do not need as near as many members as we have because. let us go back, the average representation in Nova Scotia I think is 8,000 people per district. Here in the ·six St.

John's districts and I have repeated this a dozen times, voters represented twenty-four point five per-cent of the electorate, the six St. John's seats. To take Humber districts, Grand Falls and St • . John's I would say they would be over sixty-five per-cent of the total vote. MR. WELLS: The two Humber districts take in about ten per-cent of the total population of Newfoundland. MR. MURPHY: That is right. Now in Nova Scotia and this was brought up in 1962, in 1962 Mr.

Peddle who was then member for Grand Falls brought up the point of the outside of town member and there was a change at that time in the allowance, that outside members travelling should get an allowance. Now in Nova Scotia they recommend while the House is sitting the oat of town members should get a living allowance of $25.00 a day plus travelling back and forth once a week to their districts and I think this is where the great expense would come I believe on the outside ~ember. MR. WELLS: No, the biggest is the hotel accommodation. MR. MURPHY: Well, abqut $25.00 a ·day they allow. MR.

WELLS: Yea, that would cover it. MR. MURPHY: Now, we are talking about our sessional pay, everyone knows and I want to tie something else in if I may at this time, Mr. Chairaan, that is the complete outlook for any member who is elected to the House of Assembly and this involves his future, the future of that member.

We have in this House and perhaps it may never happen again, we have members in this House who have served terms of from twenty years, fifteen years, twelve years so on and so forth, I believe, Sir, in _any future plana, whether they be future or present or what­ ever it might be, that ample provision should be made in our pension plan for 4074

May 21st, 1970 ..Ji"'l - . .... MR. MURPHY: members who have served because I know there are members who are not fifty-six, there are members about my age and a bit older perhaps, some have reached sixty and so on who have served for fifteen or twenty years. As I see it the total pension, I think, over the years is something like $3,000. a year. When a man has ·served twenty ·years and is over fifty _and so on and so forth,unless he has a profession like a lawyer or something else,where does he go particularily if the Government is defeated when he is not stowed away in some pushy job for the rest of his life?

This is the great worry at this time, the past twenty years there was not too much worry because the civil Rervice and all the commissions are stacked with defeated liberals or retired l :tberals, you know I have to bring this in because I am being sympathic to everybody but still I have to face facts. MR. ROWE: This is not quite true. MR. MURPHY: It is not quite true4 Wouldcthe bon . Minister like to tell me some­ one in the liberal party who has been defeated and who is not stowed away? MR.

ROWE: My hon. friend just made a general statement there and we have for example on the civil service commission the gentl~man who just died was not a defeated candidate or a defeated liberal. MR. MURPHY: Defeated or retired. Did I add the word retired? MR. MYRDEN: He means defeated liberal candidate in the last general election or defeated to no such point as Steve Golloway, Rog. i ~rphy ~ and General - HR. ROWE: Ha! Anyway I could defend it but it is just not - MR. MURPHY: What was Mr. Murphy's name? MR. MYRDEN: I would say John, John Murphy. MR.

ROWE: Every Government in the Vorld, my hon. friend knows that every Government in the world - MR. SMALLWOOD: Does th~ hon. gentleman "want to:lal~ . who . Rog. MUrphy is? MR. ROWE: Every Government in the world - Could I answer - MR. SMALLWOOD: The hon. gentleman is not an out•harbour man, he lives here in town. MR. MURPHY: Is it difficult to establish the - MR. ROWE: If my bon. friend is kind enough to-permit me? Every Govern1nent in the world regards it as a moral obligation t o take certain actions and the 4675

May 218~. 1970 Tape 948 JM - 5 ' MR. ROWE: Diefenbaker Government for example, they ran the Diefenbaker party, ran a candidate down here, Mr. Decker, a well known Newfoundlander you remember. Mr. Decker was defeated, this happens and within two weeks Mr. Decker had a very fine job in the civil service in Ottawa. MR. MURPHY: He must be an outstanding man. MR. ROWE: The point is that Mr. Decker, I am quite sure, knew or had some reasonable assurance when he gave up his job here in the Red Cross to run for Mr. Diefenbaker's party.

He had some reasonable assurance that he would be looked after in the event that he was defeated and this is normal all over the world. There is nothing wrong with it, nothing reprehensible · about it. You cannot throw your candidates to the wolves if they have made sacrifies, you cannot throw defeated candidates of your party to the wolves. MR. MURPHY: Now, Mr. Minister, you have to be a little bit - the special assistance who I am employing there for three months is all the money is left.

I mean I have to get someone that knows - after all the opposition office, now I think we have to be fair, has to know something about the actual party that, is this not so? You know! I mean, following the argument, would anybody like for me to go down and draft perhaps the top civil servant out of this service to come up here and assist? Would that be right? MR. SMALL'WOOD: To a point of order, Mr. Chairman. Do we allow that into this Chamber? What ia'this? MR. MURPHY: But, Mr. Chairman, I was just trying to tie in this outlook. What is going to happen I really do not know.

This thing has been brought to the floor of the House, the hon. member for Humber East feels in his heart and soul.: that the sessional pay is not adequate. MR. SMALLWOOD: The hon. gentleman if he keeps on is going to talk the House right out of what he has been talking about. MR. MURPHY: I personally feel that any member that devotes himself to this House and does his job is worth far more and I have said this on many occasions far more if he devotes himself, the hon. member again said it would attract perhaps, I do not know what expression he used. HR. WELLS: Continue to attract good quality.

May 21st, 1970 Tape 948 JM - 6 MR.

MURPHY: I do not think the bon. member said continue to attract. 1 made the statement one time and I could bite my tongue off two seconds afterwards and I said if the salary were there we would get decent candidates to run in the elections and here I am looking all around me at forty members and they must say, "What kind of a guy is he that we are not decent" but I believe that it is not that the candidates in this House are not capable or the members but it would certainly be an attraction to a.lot of people today who stay away from politics to say well this is a job that is to be considered and basically,while we are discussing. this 1 I would like to see, quite frankly, something done . about it at this time.

I just want to discuss the $10,000 grant to the Opposition office. I think I spoke about it before and I broke down what it is. It basically means there are $10,000 to run the Opposition office, to employ a secretary 1 that is the girl who does your typing, stenography and so on, you have to pay her-at least $350. a month so that is $4,200 gone. jfou pay for all your own postage, our research consists of newspapers, magazines and so on and it would amaze you when you are purchasing these how much that runs into.

So I figure you have approximately $4,000 and,unemployment insurance and eanada pension plan, all this comes out of our $10,000 . but you can see there is approximately $4500 left for research. l was just speaking about this grant to the Opposition offices, totally inadequate because!they tell me and I have made inquiries 1to get anybody at all that can do the job for you you have to pay them a minimum of $1~000a year to do the job properly, you know at least $~000 So these are the few thoughts I have, Mr. Chairman, on the thing and I think it could be looked at very closely. MR.

SMALLWOOD: My understanding is this and,by the way,may I say there is an increase for all members of the staff. At the bottom of the page members of the committee will see $4~00 for the staff for a ·block increase in the vote, · the salaries for the staff, the staff of the House, the House's employees, there is a block increase of $4100 that should read $124900 because they are to get the increase running right through the public service. MR. MIDU'HY: I am lost somewhere around here. MR. SMALLWOOD: At the bottom of page sev~nteen there is a block amount of $~00 4677

May 21st. 1970 Tape 948 ..1M - 7 HR. SMALLWOOD: that ahould read $12,900, That takaa eare of an inereaae for all member• of the ataff of the House. Now my understanding is that there is unanimity on all sides of the House, that the opposition, Her Majesty's O~position, Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition~ot the individual members of it but Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition,shall have the vote, the present vote increased by $5,000. a year. That is the research vote to help them to serve the public better.

That the Leader of the Opposition shall have the salary of a Cabinet Minister, that all members of the House shall be increased to a gross of $10,000. of which twO-thirds is salary and one-third is expense.That would be therefore $7,776.67 salary and $3,333.33 expenses.a total of $10,000. MR. ROBERTS: $6~666.67, Sir. MR. SMALLWOOD: Yes, $6, what? MR. ROBERTS: Two-thirds of $10,000 is $6,666.67. MR. SMALLWOOD: Well, whose arithmetic is that? The Minister of Health does it and trapped me into making a 7 it is his figures. So now he is correcting the figures.

All right the salary then of every member would be $6,666.67 salary ar j indemnity and expenses $3,333.33. That is our . universal~nderstanding here in the House from all sides, no objection, no dissent. It is moved by the President of the Council, Minister of Justice, all these amendments. The Governor: _has tabled his request that these estimates be passed and we will have to get governoratorial assent, I think. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, generally I support this move because I do not think this is too much at all .

It has to be remembered that the $3,333.33 is for expenses and I do not think there is any member~particularily one who does not have a St. John's districtjlho is not going to spend $3,500 a year at least out travelling around his district and probably more. MR. NEARY: I am going to spe~d that on a walk around my lawn. MR. CROSBIE: If walkathons keep on you may as well give away your $10,000. a year and be done with it. MR. SMALLWOOD: It is cheaper just to go and walk, do not pay someone elRe to walk get them to pay us to walk. MR. CROSBIE: Every bit of mail that comes in contains at least notice of ten 4678

May 21st, 1970 Tape 948 .JH - 8 ~· CROSBIE: walkathons and in fact last year I practically purcha~ed Fogo Island because there was so many came in from the great walkathon. MR. SMALLWOOD: And look ··what a miserable failure it turned out to be • . MR. CROSBIE: Well, it turned out all right, Hr. Speaker, Fogo Island was very good in the third convention. MR. SMALLWOOD: It did for me turn out good. I thought I had purchased it. MR. CROSBIE: Fogo Island was solid but I have one further .suggestion, Mr.

Speaker, on what the Premier has just moved and I still think that no matter what ·the ·salary arid so on is for every member that there should be an amount voted here towards the expenses of non-residents St. John's members or members who have their domiciles outside St. John's to assist them in these particular expenses of travelling back and forth. MR. ROWE: Would the bon. gentleman permit a question on that because I am not clear on this? I am asking this as,\enuine question.

If a member lives let us say in Corner Brook and he has t~ come in here now what is the essential difference between that member who comes in here, I mean in principle what is the difference, and the member for Bonavista South who probably spends a quarter of his time, he lives here but he has to spend a quarter of his time liv~ng in his district? MR. CIOSBIE: Travel is travel. MR. MORPBY:. 1~ :is•.very u'llrealistic. MR. WELLS: Very unrealistic. MR. MURPHY: We have been in St.

John's for four months now and bow many actual days have any member here spent in his district1 I bet you if he apends twenty days out of 365 he is lucky. MR. MYRDEN: Oh! Oh! Come on! MR BARBOUR: (Inaudible.) MR MURPHY: 1 am not talking about the bon. member for Bonavista South. MR BARBOUR: Can I have my say? Up until the last of November or early December, when I took sick with the flu and had three or four doctors working on me, and only now, Thank God! I am getting on my feet, I used to visit my district once a month, and I would go right from Salvage, right into the interior 4679

May 21st, 1970 MR. BAR.82UR: Tape 948 JM- 9 to the community of Terra Nova where they have the great Barbour swimming pool and right down to Cape Bonavista, forty-three communities. I think I said here in one of my speeches that I was not like a seal flicking hi' flippers as when I get into a community I would park the taxi car I . had~which cost me thirty dollars a day1 and I would have to pay for the drivers meals and I would have to pay for his room at night and there was the occasional lemonade. -that he would like or something similar to that, I would have to pay for that.

It would cost me fifty or sixty dollars a day and I would spend not less than four hours in each cominunity an'd I could not do it in a week, I could not do it in a fortnight bot what I would do is this: I would come back on the weekend and spend with my family and I would go out again the following week and I have done that for the last eleven years. You know how many times I have been in my district during the last eleven years. MR. MURPHY : NO. MR. BARBOUR: Eighty-four times. MR. MURPHY: In the last eleven years. MR. BARBOUR: Eighty-four times.

You know wha~even the dogs know me because they follow me down there. MR. SMALLWOOD: It is 1:00 o'clock. KR. BARBOUR: Mr. Speaker, Mr. Chairman, if this does become a reality may I be permitted to ask the bon. the Premier, will it be retroactive this session. MR. SMALLWOOD: This present session, yes but not last year just this year. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, the bon. the Minister of Education asked a question, what is the difference?

There are two different things, one is the expenses of members in connection with their districts, travelling through their districts and that kind of a visitation, the other is the expenses of coming when the House of Assembly is meeting for the three or four months a year. These are two different matter. Members who have to travel back and forth to the House of Assembly still have to travel their districts so I submit, Mr. Chairman, that there is a good case for some amount to be voted towards the expenses of members who live outside St. John's and travel back a~d forth during the session.

They still have to travel through their districts also and it is almost 1:00 468U

May 21st, 1970 Tape 948 JM- 10 MR. CROSBIE: o'clock. · :> Before concluding, Mr. Chairman, it was mentioned that there is going to be a block vote of ~00 for staff of the House of Assembly which I am glad to see because I think that the page boys and messenger in the clerks office certainly need more remuneration and it should be put on a different basis, I think, not so much a session but so much a week while the session is on because in one year the Rouse may ~eet nine weeks and in another year it might meet fourteen. MR. SMALLWOOD: W'hen:.we hoe done that we have given them additional pay.

Everytime that the members ~ot additional pay for an extra long session or an extra session the staff got extra pay as well. MR. CROSBIE: Right, well then - MR. ROWE: The Internal Economy Commission. MR. CROSBIE: Right. MR. SPEAKER(NOEL): I think the·hon. member is anticipating a vote further down and it being now 1:00 o'clock I leave the Chair until 3:00 o'clock. 4001

·' PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY Volume 1 Number 76 4th. Session 34th. General Assembly VERBATIM REPORT THURSDAY, MAY 21, 1970 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE GEORGE W. CLARKE

May 21, 1970 Tape #949 Page 1 The House resumed at 3 P.M. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall 20-10-01 carry? MR. WELLS: Hr. Chairman, I do appreciate the efforts that have been made, but it still does not. in my opinion. satisfy tHe greater need. What is in the best interest of the taxpaye·rs of this Provincef What is in their best interest is to be assured of a House of Assembly constituted of the most capable men available.

Now that is what is in the best interest of the taxpayers of this Province, to be assured that the members of this House of Assembly will be the best men or women available in the Province, to carry on the administration of the affairs of the Province. This is not likely to be don.e while the sessional indemnity together with the expease allowance is $8500. Well there is a motion now to increase that to $10,000. It is equally unlikely to be done while that amount remains at $10,000. $10,000 today is little more than $8500 was in 1966. I am sure with that most bon. members will agree.

There is very little . difference. It is only probably making up for the difference in inflation in that four year period. Now I can understand that .there is a reluctance on the part of the Government, because as the bon. the Premier said earlier this morning, that as soon as anybody suggests it - if one side or the other suggests it, there is going to be political condemnation for it.

But I think anybody who looks at this and condemns the members of this House for raising the salary to what would be a reasonable normal level is cutting off their nose to spite their faces, because what we want to attract and make sure that in the future we attract are the best men and women available to administer the affairs of the Province. $10,000 when you deduct from it, the expenses involved, and most people, most members who are involved as members of the House of Asseably have to be able to devote a great deal of their time during the year, not jU8t while the House is in session, because all the rest of the yea