VOL. 3 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. MONDAY, JUNE 8, 1981 NO. 55

June 8, 1981 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Butt): Tape No.2236 DW - 1 Order, please! STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS MR. SPEAKER: Recreation and Youth. MR. H. ANDREWS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. H. ANDREWS : The hon. Minister of Culture, And Environment. And the Environment. Mr. Speaker, the creation of a separate department of the Environment was an important expression of this government's interest in, concern for and commitment to the preservation, management and control of the Newfoundland envi­ ronment.

I speak not only in terms of the natural environment,which we all value so highly 1 but also in terms of the social, economic and cultural environment of our unique Newfoundland society, any or all elements of which have the potential to be impacted upon by major resource and other similar development projects. Obviously,our Province must grow and we must develop our resources but at the same time we must also preserve the integrity of our environment. This implies an increased presence and an expanded role for my department in the future.

In this connection,my department has recently completed an internal organizational review designed to ensure that we will, indeed, have such capability on a continuing basis to meet the increasingly ~lex requirements of management of our environment. This concludes as well an expanded emphasis on our mandate for water resource management. 6J53

June 8, 1981 Tape No. 2236 DW - 2 MR. H. ANDREWS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to briefly review for this honourable House the revised structure on organization that has recently been established in the Depart­ ment of the Environment and also announce certain staffing appointments that have been approved by the government to oversee these various areas of environmental responsibility. The Department of the Environ­ ment consists of five distinct divisions as follows: First,.

Envi­ ronmental Investigations, the 'front line troops,' if you want to call them that, who provide initial response to spills and pol­ lution incidents, evaluates small referred development proposals and enforces the Waste Material Disposal Act. Secondly, Indus­ trial Environmental Engineering,responsible for the department's ~atory role in industrial pollution control and monitoring of air quality.

Thirdly, Civil Sanitary Environmental Engineering, which carries out the review of major water and sewerage projects and plans, develops courses for training sewage treatment plant operators and provides technical advice on large scale regional waste disposal systems. Fourthly, Environmental Impact Assess­ ments administers environmental assessment legislation, monitors the impact of large scale resource development projects and under­ takes environmental monitoring of aerial pesticide applications.

And fifthly, Water Resource Management; there is a broad responsi­ bility there for conservation development control and proper util­ ization of all water within the Province. 6J54

June 8, 1981 Tape No. 2237 NM - 1 MR. ANDREWS: As I indicated earlier, in line with the departmental review some new staffing appointments have also been made to strengthen the structure of the department. I am pleased to announce that Mr. David G. Jeans has been appointed as Assistant Deputy Minister of the department. Mr. Jeans, a chemical engineer by profession, received his technical education from Memorial University and Nova Scotia Technical College.

He has con­ siderable experience in industry having worked for several years as supervisor in research and development of a division of Proctor and Gamble Company in Hamilton, Ontario. He also worked for a period with ERCO Industries at Long Harbour, following which he joined the Environment Division of the old Department of Provincial Affairs and Environment. Mr. Jeans is well qualified to fill his present position. Mr. Cyril J. Downey has been appointed to the position of special advisor to the minister and the department on environmental matters. Mr.

Downey, a former long-time employee of Bowaters in Corner Brook,is also a professional chanical engineer wro joined the depa.rt:Irent as Assistant Deputy Minister of Environment i~ 1973. In this restructuring and growing period,,Mr. Downey's experience and advice will be a decided asset in the development and implementation of proposed additional legislative initiatives. Other appointments from within my department involve the promotion of five highly qualified staff to the position of directors of the various environmental divisions. Dr. David Barnes becomes Director of Environmental Assessments; Dr.

Wasi Ullah becomes Director of Water Resource Management; in the engineering field,Mr. Brian Power has been appointed as Director of Industrial Environmental Engineering, while Mr. Kenneth Dominie has been made Director of Civil/Sanitary Environmental Engineering. And finally,Mr. Carl Strong now Buss

June 8, 1981 Tape No. 2237 NM - 2 MR. ANDREWS : becomes Director of Environmental Invesigations. All of these men are already well­ known throughout ~t and will continue to bring a high degree of expertise tq their positions . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, h.ear! MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : about two minutes . MR. STIRLING : Th.e hon. Leader of the Opposition has Thank you, Mr • Speaker . I. think the question that applies in this case is the same question. that Judge Mahoney applied in his study, n.amely,an act was brought in and the government for the next three years ignored the act completely. SOME HON .

MEl-ffiERS : Hear, hear ! MR. STIRLING: We have had two examples since this act was brought in and the new department - by the wa~ · 6056

June 8,1981 Tape Nb. 2238 AH-1 MR. STIRLING: I do not believe the legislation has been passed yet establishing the new department,but assuming that it is going to be passed, if the government does not run out of time before they actually deal with all the ·business of the government, what we have here is a good statement of purpose but let us look at the first two cases in which this great legislation would apply. The first case, Mr. Speaker, was one in which the department should be very concerned about the effects,the monitoring of the chemical spray programme.

Nobody either on this side of the House or that side of the House is very happy with tpe possibility of chemical spray getting into our water supplies and into our water systems. How did the gove.D1IlEilt deal with it? The.government dealt with it by passing legislation that took the right of an individual, took the right of the individual away from the courts. For example, Mr. Speaker, we have heard in the news today of an action that is going to be taken in New Brunswick because of the spray prograrrune. Well, two actions in this legislation, Mr.

Speaker' one is they took away the right to go to court and,two,they did not appoint an environmental assessment board in their first major project, that of Cat Arm. So, Mr. Speaker, we welcome the thought behind the legislation , we welcome the thought behind the motherhood staternent 1 but we would like to see some effectiveness in applying the act in the department, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! • MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : Further statements. The han. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, I am pleased to advise the hon. members of the tentative agreement which was reached on Friday past between government and NAPE with respect to the approximately 650 instructors employed by the Province's trade sch=ls, the College of Trades and Technoloqy, 6J57

June 8,1981 Tape No . 2238 AH -2 DR . COLL"INS : and the Bay St . George Community College . SOME HON .MEMBERS : Hear, hear ~ DR .COLLINS; M.r. Speaker , negotiations for a revised colle ctive agreement concluded late Friday with the signing of a memorandum of agreement, and the parties were succe ss ful in reaching an agreement without entering the concil ia tio n process. The union wi ll be recommending acceptance of the tentative agreement with its membership during ratifi cation votes which are expected to be conducted within the next two weeks.

In the meantime, details of the settlement will not be released until the membership has had a chance to vote on the new agreement and the results of the vote are officially released. Government is pleased with the tentative ao llective agreement and looks forward to signing the new agreement within the next few weeks and continuing the good =-elationshi p which it fee .ls exists between the schools and the colleges and this bargaining group. Honourable members may also be aware that la st week agreement was reached between the College of Fisheries administration su~port staff and Treasury Board . 68513

June 8, 1981 Tape 2239 EC - 1 DR. COLLINS: agreement, which runs for twenty- seven months from April 1, 1980 ~as also reached without the aid of conciliation services and provides for increases in line with those afforded the employees of both the College of Trades and the Workers' Compensation Board. The fifty-two member bargaining unit is represented by NAPE. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Butt): The han. the member for Terra Nova has about a minute and a half. MR. LUSH: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the lack of details at present there is very little to be said, but it is no wonder that han. members did tap their desks in a barely audible manner seeing that is the first positive note that has taken place or happened with respect to labour relations in this Province in the past two years. Mr.

Speaker, we could only wish on this side of the House that negotiations in the past would have taken place in the same manner, that we would not have had to have workers going on hunger strikes as happened with the workers at the College of Trades and Technology who were out to get a settlement, and the Workers' Compensation group and the teachers, just to illustrate negotiations that took place · within the last couple of months, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I do not know if the government have learned a lesson from these past negotiations and this is an indication - MR. FLIGHT: MR.

LUSH: No, they have not learned a lesson. - that they are going to try to improve labour relations in this Province. But, Mr.Speaker, if they are, I would suggest that this is a bit too little too late. It is like closing the barn door after the horse has escaped. 6J59

June 8, 1981 Tape 2239 EC - 2 MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, never before in this Province have labour relati9ns been at such a low ebb, so ruffled and so dissipated. I understand, Mr. Speaker, that over the weekend they had another group that asked for the resignation of the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn). SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : Order, please! MR. LUSH: So never before, Mr. Speaker, never in our history have labour relations been so dissipated, so ruffled, at such a low ebb as they presently are. MR. MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Order, please!

On a point of order, the hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman in replying to the minister's statement is entering into debate much wider ranging than the statement given by the hon. the minister. MR. STIRLING: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order, the han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, I realize that the ·president of the Council has coached his ministers very carefully to come up with statements that contains no facts and nothing that can be commented on except to provoke debate.

Now, my colleague was .not debating, he was merel y commenting, Mr. Speaker, on the fact that the state of the government, whichis all that was contained, Mr. Speaker, in this Ministerial Statement . , a general statement that one of the NAPE groups had accepted and that is all that my colleague was dealing with Mr. Speaker. And I know it bothers the 6u6o

June 8, 1981 Tape No. 2240 SD - 1 MR. STIRLING: President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) to find that our colleagues on this side of the House can take their Ministerial Statements and treat them like the ·rubbish that they are, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : Order, please! To that point of order, I think it is fair to say that the hon. member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) was certainly skirting on the fringes and getting into the area of debate. So indeed it was a legitimate point of order. I have to inform the hon. member that his time has expired now. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER: Further statements?

ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Health (Mr. House). Would the Minister of Health please fill the House of Assembly in on the state of the nursing shortage that exists in the Province,and I understand that it has reached emergency proportions in certain hospitals? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Health. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, I .think the statement that the nursing shortage has reached emergency proportions is not a correct one. We are not advised to that effect.

We know that there is expected to be some shortage during the Summer due to the usual problems,but it is not necessarily, from wh.at we are getting, going to be any worse than it was in previous Summers. And I believe one or two hospitals last year had to close some beds and one hospital in Lake Melville had to close a

section of the hospital because of shortage of staff. MR. NEARY: How many beds in St. John's will be closed down? MR. STIRLING: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. 6LJ61

June 8, 1981 Tape No. 2240 so - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : Supplementary, the hon. Leader of the Opposition. ~- STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary for the Minister of ·H .ealth (Mr. Housel. Wou .ld the minist .er indicate whether or not it is true that some intensive care units in c.ertain hospitals have had to be closed? MR, SPEAEER: The hon; the Minister of Health. MR,. NEARY: That is true. MR . !iOUSE : Mr. Speaker, t.b.ere was an indication from one ho spital that they could not recruit enough sta:ff, and that is a very specialized staf:f, and in some cases they may have had to close some acute care beds. I believe perhaps it may be the case in one or two of the hospitals, but 686 2

June 8, 1981 Tape No. 2241 PK - 1 MR. HOUSE: that is not something out of the ordinary particularly at this time of the year. MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Butt): A further supplementary, the hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: I would ask the Minister of Health (Mr. House) if he would be specific. Since he appears to have the ·information, would he tell the House which of these hospitals have reported to him that they do not have sufficient staff to keep intensive care units going?

Would he name the hospitals involved and would he tell us what emergency action he has taken to maintain these intensive care units? MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. HOUSE: He is too ashamed to tell us. The hon. Minister of Health. Mr. Speaker, there is no indication that we can not maintain the situation. When we talk closing or having no nurses to man a particular sit~ation at a particular time, it does not mean that the operation is closed down. It just means that you do not have quite so many beds.

You have the Health Sciences complex where you have an inordinate number of intensive care units, and intensive care beds. And, of course, you have the same thing at the Grace Hospital. MR. STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER: Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: A supplementary. A further supplementary, the hon. Yes, Mr. Speaker, I am not satisfied that the Minister of Health is giving the House the full information or dealing with his problem in a serious manner. Is the Minister of Health aware that, for example, in one of the children's hospitals that - MR. HOUSE: MR. STIRLING: We have only got one.

Well at the children's hospital they are running double shifts in the intensive care unit, and that people are of the impression that they are 6063

June 8, 1981 Tape 2241 PI< - 2 MR . ST TRLING : getting the first class and regular service when in actual fact the minister has been told that it is a severe problem and that there are actually double shifts :being run? MR. SP&;KER (Butt) : The hon. Minister of Health. MR. ll,OUSE: Mr. Speaker, as I just mentioned thel!'e . is. one children's hospital. And, of course, there has been some problem and it is due not necessarily to a shortage of nurses as much as it is to reorganization. But, Mr. speaker, I can guaraptee this House that there is no lack of adequate care in that particular hospital. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. FLIGHT: Hear, hear! The hon. member for Windsor-BUchans. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Ba=yl and it comes out of Friday's debate here in the House. The minister indicated 1 I understood him to ... indicate that when the court c.ase for the recall of 800 megawatts of power from the Upper Churchill is complete, and if the judgment is in Newfoundland' s favour - which we all hope it is, and we all believe it will be - that the Province will make an immediate start,.given that judgment in our faqour that we have rights to recall 800 6054

June 8, 1981 Tape No. 2242 DW - 1 MR. G. FLIGHT: megawatts, that the Province will make an immediate start on the transmission facilities to bring that pow~r into the Island. Would the minister confirm that that is his and his government's intention? MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. L. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, the best advice available to us is that with 800 megawatts of recall power, a transmission line could be financed to move that power from Labrador to the Island,interconnecting Labrador, of course, as well, where needed for development in that part of the Province. MR. G.

FLIGHT: MR. SPEAKER: member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. G. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. This is a short supplementary, Could the minister indicate based on - we have the latest LCDC reports, they are almost a year old now so the minister may have access to updated infor­ mation. Would the minister indicate how long it would take to complete an intertie with the Island? How long would it take to put a transportation system into bring that recallable power into the Province in years? MR. SPEAKER: and Energy. MR. L. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. G. FLIGHT: Speaker. The hon.

Minister of Mines Approximately four years, A final supplementary, Mr. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. member for Windsor - Buchans (~x. Flight) followed by the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary). 6 tJ 55

June 8, 1981 MR. G. FLIGHT: to tell USJ Tape No. 2242 ow - 2 Is the minister in a position in 1980 dollars 1what that transmission line would cost in the first instance? What are the latest estimates on the cost of a transport~tion system capable of bringing that power into the Island and what would be the price per kilowatt hour of that power I the recallable Churchill power, the 800 negawatts, What wou~d be the price per kilowatt hour delivered to the Island? MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. L. BARRY: Mr.

Speaker, this report has been out, the LCDC report has been out since June of 1980 and it is amazing that neither the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Stirling) nor the Energy critic (Mr. Flight) has seen fit to read it. Mr. Speaker, the feasibility study carried out as of that date indicated, Mr. Speaker, the cost of the transmission line facilities,and that worked out, if I remember correctly, the cost of the transmission line itself would be around forty-five mils per kilowatt hour.you would have to receive to pay for that.

And there would be another - presumably the cost of the electricity obtained from the Lower Churchill itself would be in the area of three to four to five mils. 6J56

June 8, 1981 MR. NEARY: MR. FLIGHT: MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Tape 2243 EC - 1 A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. A supplementary, the hen. the I will yield to my colleague, the hen. the member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. SPEAKER: The hen. member yields to the hen. the member for Windsor - Buchans for a final supplementary. MR. FLIGHT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I just want to indicate to the minister that I am aware of what the LCDC report said, but the minister is also aware that that report is now a year old, so obviously we are looking at inflated - the price has changed now. The price of the project keeps changing. The question I want to ask the minister is what the updated cost of the transmission system would cost in present day dollars and has there been an updating on the mil rate? And if the minister is not so electrified as he appears to be physically - SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR . FLIGHT: question. MR. SPEAKER: and Energy. MR.

BARRY: Hear, hear! - he might be able to answer that Order, please! The hon. the Minister of Mines Mr. Speaker, there are a lot more people after the hon. member's scalp than there are after mine. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR ·. BARRY: And there will be more, Mr. Speaker, in the next election. I understand there are already a 6 t] 57

June 8, 1981 MR. BARRY: few days. MR. STIRLING: MR. BARRY: Tape 2243 EC - 2 few in his district · in the last (Inaudible) . Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition is a little less than confident in his masculinity, I think. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: And I suspect, Mr. Speaker, it is an indication he has about the same confidence in his masculinity as he does in his ability to get elected Premier of the Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. MJRGAN: MR. FeWER: MR. BARRY: Where is his repartee? SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAI<ER (Butt): Hear, hear! Atta boy, Len! lXl not fool around with Barry.

Oh, he is blushing! He is blushing! Oh, oh! Order, please! MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, the energy critic (Mr. Flight) has had a good weekend. He is very perceptive. Yes, there is inflation occurring in Canada. We know that the federal government has had a little bit to do with that. Yes, there is inflation occurring in Canada and,yes, the cost of the transmission line facility, like the cost of everything else, would have to be inflated. And, Mr. Speaker, at the time that a decision is made to build that line, the final cost will be arrived at.

But you can be sure, Mr.Speaker, that relative to oil, relative to all other energy sources, constructing a transmission line to bring energy from the Upper Churchill project is going to be the cheapest source of energy that this Province and indeed any other province or probably any country would have in this world. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! 6058

June 8, 1981 Tape 2243 EC - 3 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : A supplementary, the hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I was going to ask the Minist~r of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry ) a question, but I do not have ·the heart today. SOME .HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ AN HON . MEMBER: (Inaudible) . MR. NEARY: Onl:' his hairdresser knows for sure. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. FLIGHT: The electrified minister. MR. NEARY: I will save my question for the hon. gentleman for tomorrow and I will ask the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheirner) a question about the - MR.

BARRY: The Conservatives are on the wrong side of the House I think. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: Unfortunately, some of us are getting rather thin on top. We might be a bit jealous too, Mr. Speaker those of who are getting thin on the top side, Mr. Speaker, could not get that done even if we wanted to, especially the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I believe the hon. member was asking the minister a question. MR. NEARY: - and the Minister of Health (Mr. House),not to mention a few others. Mr. Speaker, 6t.J59

June 8, 1981 Tape No. 2244 SD - l MR. NEARY: could the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) give us some answers in connection with the cost of living in this Provin~e? On a number of occasions now l•!e have been told, as a result of surveys carried out by a branch·of the minister's department- the Consumer Affairs Branch - that the lowest cost of living in the communi ~ ies ·surveyed, the regions surveyed in Newfoundland, was in Glovertown..

The hon. gentleman has not been able to tell us why ,neither has he been able to tell us as a result of these surveys what the government has done about the high cost of living in this Province,if anyt~ing. MR. SPEAKER (Butt): The hon. Minister of Justice MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, as han. members know, of course, we do not have, you know, a price setting mechanism in the Province and certainly, you know, it was not the government's intention to establish such. It would be, you know, quite a huge bureaucracv , nuite an extremely costly venture and an extreme amount regulation.

I suppose our first responsibility is to make people aware because, you know, awareness of the difference in prices and certainly to a very large extent I think that awareness you know, has been enhanced. Then when one comes to discrepancies in prices between specific areas, you know, I do not think that we will ever be in the position where prices will be identical in various parts of the Province - you have transportation, you also have, I suppose, the competiti ve factor; the more competition there is those kinds of things.

Also people frequently, you knO'ioT, ask themselves why, with smaller outlets the price is lower than some .times in the larger chain ones , and that obviously is the case and I would assume that part of the factor there, of course, is lower overhead and also that people may well, you know, be willing to settle for smaller margins of profit. We are examining to see what 6J70

June 8, 1981 Tape No. 2244 so - 2 MR. OTTENHEIMBR: would be the appropriate meChanism and if thE!re are further things that, in fact, shoul9, be done. You know, we certainly cannot get into a totally regulated economy of, you know, fixing, determining the prices on various food and other areas.

I do not see that as any solution because your expenditures, ~ bureaucracy, you would h~ve to build up , tile regulatory powers that you would need, you know, of inspecting and investigating and, you know, callin q evidence and that type of thing would be such an intrusion and that in itself, of course, would put expenses up trememdously for the people who are the object of bure·aucratic interference. So that is essentially where it is. And obviously , as the hon. member knows, this rise in food prices obviously is not confined to Newfoundland. That is pretty general across Canada. MR.

NEARY: Supple.rnenta:ry, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Supplementary, the hon. member r never beard such a weak answer in all my life. The hon. gentleman was really graspin~ for words to try to answer that question . But it seems to me to be mere tokenism on the part of the minister to be carrying out t hese surveys 6071

June 8, 1~81 Tape No. 2.245 NM ~ 1 MR. NEARY: when nothing is being done about i't. What is the point? Could the hon. gentleman tell us the point? What is the _purpose of carrying out these surveys to determine the cost of living in various parts - the various communities and various regio~s o~ the Province? What is the point of it all? Is it just tokenism on the part of the administration? MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr.

Speaker, you know, I think one important function is that of public information, that peoJ?le are aware and people know what the prices are in differnt areas and can make comparisons. You know 1 that is an important factor, the one of public awareness. So I think that is being done. But to get into a total kind of regulatory mechanism would be a very serious jump. Hon. members probably recall we have had in the past number of years a number of royal commissions and select committees, both in this jurisdiction and in Canada in general, on rising costs of food and rising costs of this and rising costs of that.

And there was one which I think went five or six years with respect to petroleum costs. And all of these royal commissions and investigations have not, to the best of my knowledge, resulted in any reduction in prices. They may have served a useful purpose in public awareness, public information. But I think from that point of view, that responsibility of public awareness and public information that the surveys conducted by the department, and indeed other agencies, consumer groups, some of the media are involved in this, and that I think is providing a worthwhile service.

It is not going to bring prices down or control the. rate of inflation. And I doubt if there is very much anybody right here can do about that because that is part of a national problem and indeed a North American problem. 6072

June 8, 19.81 MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Tape No. 2245. NM - 2 A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker . A final supplementary, the hon. Mr. Speaker, Beryl Plumptre made ten recommendations in the. Food Prices Review Report that was submitted to government back in 1974,I think it was, that is seven year~ ago, not one item - and out of the ten recommendations, seven fell under provincial jurisdictions, one of which was to establish a full time Minister of Consumer Affairs, a separate Department of Consumer Affairs in this Province and they did that and then abandoned it.

So there is something the han. gentleman should take a look at. The public do not need information. They already know that the cost of living is the number one problem in Newfoundland today. Public awareness, the hon. gentleman says. I mean,how naive can you get, Mr. Speaker? The public are aware and that is why I am raising this matter now because it is the number one problem. When we do find out the differential in prices, food prices and gasoline prices, and the heating fuel prices around the various parts of the Province - MR MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER: of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

A point-of order, the hon. President The observations of the hon. member are very intere.sting,but be is making a speech and this is the Question Period for the asking of questions. MR. STIRLING: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order, the han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: It was obvious from the line of questioning that the minister did not understand and so he was giving a little

preamble to make the minister understand the concept behind the questioning. Completely in order, Mr. Speaker. 6073

June 8,1981 Tape No. 2246 AH-1 MR.SPEAKFR (Butt): To the point of order, I think it is foir to say that the

preamble was getting a little long for a supplementary question. member to put the question. I wou]d now ask the hon. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I was hoping to elaborate a little more on my

preamble but obviously the President of the Council does not want to hear what I have to say 1 so I will ask the hen. gentleman if this silly nonsense of doing surveys in the Province is going to continue with no purpose in mind except public awareness, would the hon. gentleman tell us if they are going to cont·inue with the same list of communities and regions that have been surveyed so far o.r is it· possible to change that list because I understand that list now has been surveyed for the last three years, I believe?

Is it possible to change the list to include communities like Port aux Basques and communitie·s along the Southwest eaast and the Burin Peninsula and so forth rather than just stick to the list of communities that have been surveyed in the past two or three years? MR. SPRAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, an affirmative answer to both these questions .

It is our intention to continue with th .e surveys and it is our plan as well to broaden and alter in terms of the communities covered so that additional communities will be covered and perhaps some of the ones previously covered dropped and then picked up again on a kind of rotational basis,but to include other communities as well. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of the Environrnen~ and it concerns this year's spray programme and the part that his department plays in that, I think the thirteenthrecommendation of the Royal 6J74

June 8,1981 Tape No. 2246 AH-2 MR. TULK: Commission was that a contingency plan to prevent or to contend with any mishap to personnel or aircraft on the ground or in the air ~e required before a permit to spray was given and I understand it is the gentleman's department that issues those permits. I would like to ask the minister has that contingency plan has been drawn up and presented to his department and if indeed he could supply us with some of the details? MR.SPEAKER (Butt}: The hon. Minister of the Environment. MR. ANDREWS: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, it has been done and the act has been followed, the Environmental Act. As you may be aware,our department will be monitoring on another level the effects of the spray. I cannot give you the details on that but I will take it under advisement. MR.TULK: MR. SPEAKER: supplementary. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker,a supplementary. The hon. member for Fogo. A As I understand it too, that contingency plan, according to the recommendations of the Royal Commission ,there were supposed to be some simulated exercises carried out to prove the reliability of the contingency plan.

Could the minister tell us if those simulated exercises out and would he table all the written reports of the exercises and would he table the contingency plan as presented, -I presume, by the Minister of Forestry (Mr. Power}? MR. SPEAKER: MR. ANDREWS: The hon. Minister of the Environment. I will have to take the question under advisement and get back to you within a few days. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: member' for Fogo. A final supplementary. The hon. MR. TULK: I am surprised. Is the minister telling the House that he has issued a spray permit without seeing the 6:J7 .S

June 8, 1981 Tape 2247 PK - 1 MR. TULK: contingency plans? can he not supply us with the details?. In other words, That is the question. Can we have the details if he has seen it? MR. SPEAKER (Butt): The hon. Minister of the Environment. MR. ANDREWS: Mr. Speaker, this is a rather technical question. I do not - MR. STIRI.IN:;: Have you seen the report? MR. ANDREWS: No,I have not seen the report SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. ANDREWS: - but I will get the information. I do know that the work has been done. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Torngat Mountains yields to the bon.

JTBI1ber for Fogo (Mr. Tulk). A final supplementa~y. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, the minister issued the spray permit and the spray programme starts tomorrow.· Now I want to get him on the record again: Is he saying that he has not seen the plans that were drawn up, the contin .gency plans in case of some accident? Is he saying that he has not seen those reports or those plans : AN HON. MEMBER: MR. TULK: MR. SPEAKER: MR. ANDREWS: Yes or no? Yes or no? The hon. Minister of the Environment. Mr. Speaker, once again I will have to take the question under advisement. There are many things that come across my desk.

The permits to spray have been issued. The aircraft have been investigated. We know all of that. On the technical points that you are asking,! do not have that information but I will get it for you. MR. WARREN: I yield, Mr. Speaker, to the IIEirber for Fogo. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Torngat Mountains yields to the hon. member for Fogo. 6 'J 7 6

June 8, 1981 Tape 2247 PK - 2 MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I would assume that ~ part of that contingency plan might .indeed have something to do with in case an airplane· load of spray is dumped on, say, a populated area similar as to what happened in New Brunswick last week. Now could the minister tell us if in that contingency plan there areany arrangements made to give, perhaps, medical examinations to people who have been directly dumped on by the spray rather than just going out and taking air samples? Or again,has he seen the report? MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : MR. ANDREWS: The hon. Minister of The Environment.

Yes, Mr. Speaker, on that one point I do know that precautions have been taken and there are emergency telephone numbers available if anything like that does happen, and the people on our staff and in other government departments/ including the Department of Forest Resources and Lands have been alerted to these potential problems if they do occur. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker , I yield. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Torngat Mountains wishes to yield to the hon. member for Windsor-Buchans, on a supplementary. MR. FLIGHT: I thank the hon. member for yielding. Mr.

Speaker, I want to ask the minister on this contingency plan. Now the minister had to issue,and presunably has issued a pennit to the Department . of Forestry to start a spray programme that should start tomorrow, and that permit had to be issued based on the minister.'s acceptance of his people's reports. Now one of the key requirements was a contingency plan in the event of a major mishap, in the event of an airplane crashing in Gander Lake.

What I want to ask the minister is as he seen and perused the contingency plan before he issued the permit to the Department of Forestry and approved the contingency plan as he saw it? 6U77

June 8, 1981 Tape No. 2248 DW - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : The hon. Minister of the Environment. MR. H. ANDREWS : Yes, Mr. Speaker. MR. R. MOORES: That is not what he just said two minutes. MR. G. FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. G. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, that is not what the minister said a couple of minutes ago. He said he did not see the contingency plan • And, Mr.

Speaker, would the minister indicate to the House when he saw the contingency plan and at what point in time he decided he was prepared to issue a permit to forestry based on the contingency plan that he saw? When, Mr. Speaker, did the minister peruse and approve the contingency plan? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of the Environment. MR. H. ANDREWS: Some time ago, Mr. Speaker. _It _would be within a three to five week oeriod, SO!" .ething like that. MR. R. MOORES: That is a lie. MR. H. ANDREWS: Sorry, it may have been before. MR. G. FLIGHT: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. G. FLIGHT: Why would the minister not be able to tell the House? It is a very, very, very important issue. Why. the w.ould minister not be able to tell the House whether or not-a simple question was asked. In the recommendation it was recommended that certain things be stimulated, that there would be simulation of some things in the event of accidents. Why could the minister not tell the House whether or not these simulation took place? In his approving the 6D78

June 8, 1981 Tape No. 2248 DW - 2 MR. G. FLIGHT: contingency plan1did he determine whether or not accidents that .might take place, those pointed out by the Royal Commission, whether or not these possible accidents were simulated and whether or not we are prepared, we are in a position to take the required action? Why would the minister have to stand up and admit that he did not have this information, he was not aware of these things and yet he says perused and approved the contingency plans? MR. SPEAKER (Butt): The hon. Minister of the Environment. MR. H.

ANDREWS: The contingency plan is a little bit different than what the original question on this project was; the contingency plan, yes. For your information,here is a copy of the contingency plan,or part of it. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. L. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, I believe we have a very serious situation here. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. L. STIRLING: We have a situation in which we have been assured in this House that there is an adequate protection in force, that there is a contingency plan in force. We have a minister admitting that he has not read the report.

Now would the minister tell us that there is, in fact, a report which he has seen and studied and he is satisfied as ·to the details? And would the minister get up and tell us the details, tell us the dates and times in which these simulated excercises took place? And would you table a copy of the report.? Because it is so importantl It happens tomorrow. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of the Environment. 6 :J 7 9

June 8, .19.81 Tape No. 2249 NM- 1 MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : The hon. Minister of the En.virorunen.t. MR. ANDREWS: The dates, the times, I certaLnly do not know, Mr. Speaker; I will get that in.formation. for you. MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. member for Windsor-Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Would·the minister make an undertaking to table it in the House tomorrow, the contingency plan? MR. WARREN: They are going to spray tomorrow, too. MR. FLIGHT: We are going to spray tomorrow, Mr. Speaker. MR. STIRLING: Today. MR.

FLIGHT: Would the minister undertake to table in the House today the contingency plans that he appr?.ved and on which he based his appro.val for a spray programme? Would the minister undertake to table those plans today? MR. SPEAKER: The hen. Min.ister of the En..virorunen.t. MR. ANDREWS : I will attempt to obtain as EUCh information for the House as possible before six o'clock today. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hen. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of C~lture and Recreation and Youth also.

Could the minister enlighten this House more why the organizin.g committee for the Winter Games resigned last Thursday evening? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Culture, Recreation. and Youth. MR. ANDREWS: Mr. Speaker, I think that is a question. that would more appropriately be addressed to the committee. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, a supplemen.tary. 6JBO

June 8, 19 .81 Tape No. 2249 NM - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : The hon. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: could the minister confirm that in April he advised the organizing committee that he would get back to them within one week and advise them if there were more finances coming for the organizing committee and as of today he has not got back to that committee? MR. SPEAKER: and Youth. MR. ANDREWS : Th= hon. Minister of Culture, Recreation April? Excuse me, Mr. Speaker, there are a lot of dates being thrown around. Quite possibly it was April. The committee was here, we had a very good meeting.

The reasons for their resignation I would suspect would be - you would have to ask them. I have some ~ies in my own mind why they resigned and I have some beliefs why they did,but you would certainly have to ask them. MR. WARREN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, could the minister advise if those upcoming Winter Games that are going to be held in Labrador City and Wabush, if those games have been watered down? Some of the sports activities have been delected altogther and others have been minimized.

Could the minister advise if this Winter Games will be on a smaller scale than the last Winter Games? MR. SPEAKER: and Youth. The hon. Minister of ~ulture, Recreation -6 [] 8 1

June 8, 19.81 Tapa No . 2249 NM - 3 MR . ANDREWS : I: would not call it a watered down. version of the Games, Mr. Speaker. I thlnk. there are possibly two events that will not be held on as large a seal~ as they may have been held if it was on tha Island. I: w:Ul say this to the hon. House, that; the govarn'!nent wi.ll be. spending considerably more money on the games being held in Labrador than on any other games ever held. MR. WARREN: ;Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAn:R (Simmsl : A final supplementary was indicated. 6062

June 8, 1981 Tape 2250 EC - 1 MR. SPEAKER {Butt) : The hen. member yields to the hen. the member fo~ Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, the minister said Friday in the House that he would find out why the committee resigned and get back to .the House later. Now, I presume that the minister has had ample time since Friday until Monday to find out why the organizing committee resigned. Could the minister tell the House why they resigned? MR. SPEAKER: The hen. the Minister of Recreation, Culture and Youth. MR. ANDREWS: Mr.

Speaker, once again, I have to repeat that that question is better asked of the committee that resigned. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The time for Oral Questions has expired. MR. STIRLING: A point of privilege, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: On a point of privilege, the hen. the Leader of the Opposition. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, a point of privilege has to be brought to the attention of the Speaker at the earliest possible time.

It will require some checking by the Speaker, but I think that if the Speaker checks Hansard, you will find that the information given by the Minister of Environment (Mr. Andrews) in his capacity as Minister of Environment, at one point in his answering in the Question Period was not consistent with the answer he gave at another point in the Question Period. And, Mr. Speaker, I believe that it is a question of privilege that the information given to this House must be correct and I think that a 6083

June 8, 1981 Tape 2250 EC - 2 MR. STIRLING: check of Hansard will show that there is information which is not correct and the privileges of this House have been breached on a very serious matter dealing with the confidence that the general public and this House of Assembly have in the government and specifically in that minister's ability to control the spray programme. The information has now come out, Mr. Speaker, that that minister cannot give any assurance that he personally has seen a report, has personally got this under control or in fact there is a programme in force and in fact that it has been tested.

That information is in contradiction with the information he gave earlier in Question Period and this House may have had its privileges breached, Mr. Speaker. I would urge you to check Hansard an~ give a ruling. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. MARSHALL: To the point of privilege, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : Order, please! Order, please! To the point of privilege, the hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL : On that point of privilege, Mr. Speaker, not only is that not a point of privilege, it is an abysmal breach of the privileges of this House to raise it.

If the hon. gentleman rises on a point of privilege, let him have authorities. I quote to Your Honour Beauchesne, Fifth Edition, Page 11. It has been quoted over and over again. "A question of privilege ought rarely to come up." Paragraph 19, Page 12: (1) "A dispute arising between two Members, as to allegations of facts, does not fulfill the conditions of parliamentary privilege." (2) "The failure of a Minister of the Crow.n to answer a question may not be raised as a question of privilege," and so on and so forth. There is no doubt, Mr. Speaker, this is not a question of privilege.

What the hon. gentleman is doing in his 6iJ84

June 8, 1981 Tape No. 2251 OW - 1 MR. W. MARSHALL: Your Honour's attention the fact that the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Stirling) has risen on a point of privilege and at the same time used the point of privilege as a guise to make a speech about his own specious arguments and commenting .upon what the minister has said. This itself, Mr. Speaker, is a breach of privilege. Now the hon. Leader of the Opposition is doing this time and time again and, Mr. Speaker, if he wishes to look at the authorities of Beauchesne he will find there are other remedies in the book itself.

That is where members of this House abuse the House by using points of privilege for bogus purposes to make their own spurious speeches such as he does. There is a remedy, Mr. Speaker, and that remedy ultimately leads to the naming of a member. We would haee to do that with a Leader of the Opposition,but this is what it is coming to unless he learns the rules of this House and applies them. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. L. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Butt): To the point of privilege, the hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. L. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, to the point of privilege. The member for St.

John's East, the President of the Council (Mr, Marshall) was referring, of course, to the points of privilege brought up by the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey) last week, two spurious points of privilege. And when he got away from the main point of privilege that is being brought up, Mr. Speaker, in dealing with his authorities and his arguments. Mr. Speaker, there is no difference of opinion between two hon.members. What I am talking about is information given in the same answer period by the same minister which does not give the informa­ tion, the correct information.

I am being very careful in the choice of words so that I do not invite the President of 6086

June 8, 1981 Tape No. 2251 ow - 2 MR. L. STIRLING: the Council to get up on another point of privilege. Now, Mr. Speaker, he was getting very close, very close to again himself breaching privilege in threatening me to be named by this House. One of the things that those of us on this side of the House have complete confidence in is the Speaker's ~ality. And that is why, Mr. Speaker, I did not ask you to make a ruling. I asked you,because I have to bring it to your attention at the first opportunity, to check Hansard and to give a ruling as in the fair manner in which you usually give your ~ulings, Mr. Speaker.

I have no doubt that we will continue to get the same fair treatment. MR. W. MARSHALL: To the point of privilege, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Butt): To the point of privilege, the hon. President of the Council. MR. W. MARSHALL: The point, Mr. Speaker - if I could just have one word - the point of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, if there is any point ofprivilege it comes from the rules that are set down in this House,not from what the hon. gentleman invents in his own mind as being points of privilege. And when he is doing it he is infringing, Mr. Speaker, on the privileges themselves of this_House.

It is getting to be rather embarrassing to this side,and I note his colleagues by the look on their faces he is getting to be an embarrassment to them as well. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of privilege, I will certainly have to check Hansard. I reserve my ruling. 6:J87

June 8, 1981 Tape No. 2251 DW - 3 PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : The hon. Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. MR. J. GOUDIE: Mr. Speaker, in compliance with the requirements of

section 14 of the Farm Development Loan Act, 1953,I present the annual report together with the financial statements of the Farm Development Loan Board for the fiscal year ended March 31, 1980. MR. SPEAKER: Any further reports? MR. H. ANDREWS: MR. SPEAKER: Recreation and Youth. Mr. Speaker, if I could revert? The hon. Minister of Culture MR. H. ANDREWS: Mr. Speaker, I have obtained a copy .- I thought I did have one here earlier - of the contin- gency plan for the budworm spray programme which I will table. NOTICES OF MOTION MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled, "An Act Respecting The Award Of Medals To Veterans Of The Province Who Volunteered To Serve In The British Imperial Forces During The Second World War". SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. J. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I give notice I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a number of bills. The first one; "An Act Respecting An In=ease Of certain Pensions For Transferred Employees": "

An Act To Arrend The Public Service Pensions Act": "An Act To Arrend Certain Taxation Statutes, 1981". And I give notice that I will on tomorrow move that the House resol ve itself into a Committee of the Whole to consider certain resolutions for the granting of supplementary supply to Her Majesty. 60B8

June 8, 1981 Tape. No. 2252 so - 1 ton\. SPEA.I<ER C$uttl.; E~~er not~ces? The hon.' Minister of Justice. MR, oTTENHE~MER : Mr, Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorro~ a,sk. Leave to :i-ntroduce two bill3 · 1bey axe both. subse~ue.n.t to and ne.ce.s.sa,ry for certain budge ::.ory provisi,ons. , one, ".ll.n Act To Amend The Assignment of Book Debts Act"; the. other, "An Act To Amend The Registration of Deeds Act". sa-lE H~. Mflo1BEFS: MR. SPEAl<ER: Affairs. MRS, NEWHOOK: ae.ar r h.ear. Further not,ices? The hon. Minister of Municipal Mr.

Sp'eaker, r give. notice. that I will on tomorrow ask. leave to introduce bills entitled: "An Act To Am,end The City Of St, John 's Act"; "An Act To Amend The Municipa.lities Act"; "An Act To Amend The St . John's Munici·~;>al Elections Act"; "An Act To Amend Th.e City of St. John's Loan Act, 1978 " ·and "An A.ot To Amend The St. John's Assessment Act" . SOME FIDN. .M;E,MBERS : Oh., oh.. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Mine.s and Energy. MR, BARRY: Mr. S~eake.r 1 I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a hill - MR. FLI'GHT: He knuc.lded under to" the L.finiste.r of Fisheries. MR.

SPEAKER; MR. BARRY: .Mineral A.ct, 1976" . MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! - entitled 1 "An Act To Amend th.e Furt.'ler notices? 6 I ' • • 9 u 0 ..

June 8, 1981 Tape No. 2252 so - 2 ANSt'ffiRS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN I-1R. SPEAKER (Butt) : The hon . Minister of Finance . DR. COLLINS : . Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the an swer to question !.'b. 42 as ked by the hon . member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) on. the ls~ of April whicn related to costs of transporting . members of the Public Service . SQ'1E HCN. MEMBEI<S: MR. SPEA.t<ER: MR . NEARY : MR. SPEAKER: for LaPoile . MR. NEARY : Hear, hear . Any further answers? A point of order , Mr . Speaker. A point of order, the hon. member Mr.

Speaker, in another five or six weeks the House will close for the year, no doubt, around the middle of August SOME KON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh . MR. SPEAKER: Order , please ! MR. NEARY: - or the lst of September - we may close down a day or two for Regatta Day - and, Mr • Speaker, there are about eighty outstanding questions on the Order Paper - SOME HON . ME!-1BERS : Oh., oh.. MR . SPEAKER: Order, please ! MR·. NEARY: - and I would like Your Honour to direct the ministers to answer :these .questions. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please ! That is not a point of order . 6G90

June 8, 1981 Tape No. 2252 SD - 3 ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : Concurrence Motion on the Resource Committee. minutes . The We have used one hour and eleven debate. was adjourned by the hon. Leader of the Opposition who had about four minutes remaining out of the ten. The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, there are a number of items that I want to raise before we get off this subhead but seeing we only have an hour and a half left, I believe I told the Minister of Rural, Agri-cultural and Northern Dvelopment (Mr.

Goudie), I gave the minister notice on Friday th.at if he did not table a list of loans that were made under indivudual loans, names, the type of industry and the amount of the loan, if the hon. gentleman did not table it in this House today- and obviously he has not intention of tabling it-then I am going to table the list. And so without further ado, Mr. Speaker, I table the list of Rural Development Authority approved loans for the fiscal year 1979-1980. Could I have a page?

And I would also like to table the CDA project grants for the fiscal year 1978/79 and that will show the item I mentioned the other day of $207,000 for The Rourrler l''hich I indicated to the House is nothing but a piece of gove.rnrnent propaganda. So I would like to table this information for the House. And, Mr. Speaker, I might say that in tabling these individual loans, the names and the industry and the amount, I am merely doing it because the people of the Province are entitled to have this information - MR. IDRGAN: (Inaudible) wide open. MR.

NEARY: - not that there is anything ·wrong with the loans- I will =ment on the loans later on themselves - 6J91

June 8, 1981 Tape No. 2252 so - 4 MR. NEARY: not that there is anything wrong with the loans themselves but the information, Mr. Speaker, should be tabled in this 6082

June 8, 1981 Tape 2253 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: House. The Minister of Rural, Argricultural, and Northern Development (Mr. Goudie) has refused to do it for the last - MR. MORGAN: MR. NEARY: He did not refuse to do . it. The minister refused to do it and I am doing it now. There is the list. And I am doing it now. I am carrying out one of the minister's responsibilities and I am tabling the list. And I am not saying there is anything wrong with it ! but I notice, Mr.

Speaker- my quick research ,on the loans that have been granted indicates that the loans that were granted amounting to $2,317,000- the research that I have been able to do since I obtained th~s list indicates that a lot of these industries-and the government are taking credit for creating jobs-have folded, a large number,as a matter of fact.

In some instances the loans were not necessary in the first place, the people who borrowed the money were merely using government money instead of using theirown money, and I would say in over 50 per cent, of not 75 per cent of the cases,the business is no longer in operation. So we are entitled, Mr. Speaker, to have this information and we are entitled to have the minister comment on the track record of the Rural Development Authority since it was established. The Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr.

Dinn) comes in and throws statistics around this House rather loosely about the number of jobs that have been created in this Province in the last ten years. Well, if you take this list and go over it, Mr. Speaker, you will find that most of the jobs that are listed here are phoney in the first place, and in the second place, if they were real they are no longer in existence, thebusiness went belly up or it never got started or it has been converted to something else. So, Mr. Speaker, I have been concerned about this government patronage programme right from the beginning.

And perhaps the minister now,when I table the 6J83

June 8, 1981 Tape 2253 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: list - could you take this list, please? Page, lay this on the table of .the House, please?And, as I sa~ I would like to draw attention of the members, especially to the money that is allocated every year for The Rounder, The Rounder which has no hesitation in publishing little bits and tidbits and pictures of ministers and of the Premier, and playing up government policies. No wonder 1 when one year they got $207,000. They used to criticize The Newfoundland Bulletin. Why The Newfoundland Bulletin in its heyday never cost that much money.

What are they doing with $207,000, The Rounder? And other $70,000 or $80,000 last year. SOME HON. MEMBER: Oh, oh! MR. FLIGHT: The reincarnation of The Newfoundland Bulletin. MR. NEARY: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, (Inaudible) bribe. - it is absolutely outrageous. But having disposed of that now and put the list on the table of the House where it should be-and I have all the lists right from 1972 on 1in case the hon. gentleman does not think so. MR. MORGAN: Anybody can get that. MR. NEARY: Anybody cannot get it. This House has not been able to get it. Anybody could not get it. MR.

MORGAN: You can walk downstairs and get it. Of course they can. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman may be able to threaten the Premier and threaten his colleagues in the Cabinet, he may be able to threaten the government, and get away with it - MR. MORGAN: Do not be so foolish, boy! MR. NEARY: I wonder what kind of a government we got in this Province, Mr. Speaker, that will knuckle under the threat - knuckle under the threat of resignation from the 6LJ84

June 8, 1981 MR. NEARY: MR. MORGAN: MR. BARRETT: MR. NEARY: MR. FLIGHT: have knuckled under. I1R. SPEAKER (Butt): Tape 2253 hon. gentleman. (Inaudible) hero. That is right. But obviously the government - I guarantee Moores would not Order, please! PK - 3 MR. NEARY: No,it is just another sign of weakness. We know, Mr. Speaker, we know the Premier of this Province, he is well-intentioned, but we know his strengths and his weaknesses and he has more weaknesses than he does strengthsandthat is why this Province is in the trouble it is in today. And we saw that happen now with the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.

Morgan), when the Premier and the Cabinet knuckled under because the Minister of Fisheries sent a householder to Bonavista trying to save his political scalp, threatened to bail out of the Cabinet~ He said he would resign if the government did not accede to his - MR. MORGAN ·: That is an outright lie. MR. NEARY: It is not an outright lie. And the bon. gentleman should retract that, Mr. Speaker. HR. MORGAN: It is a falsehood. MR. NEARY: It is not a falsehood. The householder will be here in my office today.

Maybe the Premier does not know the bon. gentleman sent out the householder, but I will table that in this House when I get it also. But Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman just made an unparliamentary- MR. MORGAN: MR. NEARY: SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible) government? The hon. gentleman - Oh, oh! 6U85

. June 8,1981 Tape No. 2254 AH-1 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman just made an unparliamentary remark and I think he should withdraw i·i:, MR. BARRETT: Falsehood is (inaudible). MR. NEARY: No, he said it was a lie. MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : I did not hear the hon. member but if he did and he wishes to withdraw it,I think it is up to him;but I really never heard him. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr . Speaker, the hon. gentleman obviously does not have the courage. Anybody who would make a statement like that and not withdraw it is less than a man, in my opinion. MR. MORGAN: Mr.

Speaker, I withdraw the words, 'that is a lie', but I will still maintain it is a falsehood. What the hon. gentleman is saying is false. MR. BARRETT: It is a fabrication. MR. MORGAN: A fabrication,in the hon. gentleman's mind. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman sent a householder mailing to Bonavista last week and then he made sure he got it covered in the Clarenville Packet and then he tried to plant questions over here with members of the Opposition. He t~ied to plant questions to be asked of the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mrs.Newhook) in the House.

We did not fall for his con job so the hon.gentleman has been going around patting himself on the back saying that the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Newhook) ,the Premier and his colleagues in the government knuckled under, they knuckled under. MR. MORGAN: You mage a fool of yourself in Bonavista you and your Leader made fools of yourselves. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! 6J86

June 8, 1981 Tape No. 2254 AH - 2 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, if they knuckled under it did not have anything to do with the bon. gentleman, it had to do with a policy. If the bon. gentleman was able to persuade . the government to knuckle under, he must have been able to do so with the Liberal policy because that is the policy that we announced in Bonavista and the policy that we have been enunciating in this House. MR. STIRLING: For two years. MR.

NEARY: So the bon. gentleman can try to claim all the credit and try to make himself look like a hero in the eyes of the people of Bonavista, but all he has done with his colleagues, all he has done - MR. MORGAN: MR. NEARY: Wait until the next election and I will show you. All he has done, Mr. Speaker, with the Premier and his colleagues in the Cabinet is to cause them all kinds of embarrassment. He has embarrassed the Premier and his colleagues in the Cabinet. In trying to make himself look like a hero, he has made the Premier and the government look weak. MR. STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER (Butt): MR. MORGAN: They are.

Order, please! The hon. member's time is up. The han. Leader of the Opposition. (Inaudible} when 'Len Stirling' was Deputy Mayor of St. John's. MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, the member for Bonavista South (Mr. Morgan) is up to his usual. I do not know, I was never involved in the acquisition of any property in the city of St. John's to be sold for taxes. We had a record that we were proud of in the city of St. John's when I was a member of it, in that we actually forgave taxes and that this policy only carne about - MR.MARSHALL: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order. The bon.

President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, it ill-behooves me to try to direct the Opposition in any direction, let alone the right direction, but we are discussing concurrence motions on 6097

June 8,1981 Tape No. 2254 AH-3 MR. MARSHALL: Resource Committee, Mr. Speaker. I believe the hon. gentlemen there opposite are now talking about Municipal Affairs. I believe Municipal Affairs comes with~n Government Services. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. MARSHALL: And, Mr. Speaker, I did not stop the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) was on his feet because he painted the hon. the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) in the legitimate manner that he is,as a hero to the people of Bonavista 1 but now, Mr. Speaker, that that has been acknowledged, I think that we could get back on the items of the Resource Committee.

If the hon. gentlemen wish to debate Municipal Affairs,they can do it in the time of th.e Government Services. MR. STIRLING: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : To the point of order. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, what I was responding to was the provocation by the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) who is in such serious trouble in Fisheries and in his own district - MR. · ''IARREN: Hear, hear! MR. STIRLING: - that he is now resorting to his usual practice of throwing up something which is not true and expecting somebody to respond to' it.

So to that point of order, Mr. Speaker, I was responding to a comment made by the Minister of Fisheries (Mr Morgan) ,which was not true,and he knows it was not true and that is the basis of the comment, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Well,to that point of order. I think there is a legitimate point of order since we are discussing the Heads under the Resource Committee which are Mines and Energy, Fisheries, Development, Rural, Agricultural 6:J88

June 8,1981 MR. SPEAKER (Bu·tt): Resources and Lands. Tape No . 2254 AE -4 and Northern Development and Forest, I would ask hon. members to confine their remarks to those departments. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: Yes, Mr. Speaker, just in case there is any doubt-and to ~ point of order, Mr. Speaker, to a point of order raised by the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.Morgan) 1 there was never a situation in which a house w·as taken for taxes whil .e I was 6D99

June 8, 1981, Tape 2255, Page 1 -- apb MR. STIRLING: Deputy Mayor of the city. MR. MARSHALL: On a point of privilege, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. ·MEMBERS: Oh, oh!" MR. SPEAKER(Butt): A point of privilege. The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: The point of privilege, Mr. Speaker, is that the hon. gentleman is flaunting Your Honour's rulin~ in this House. Your Honour has made a ruling that this is a matter for determination under the Government Services Heading in the concurrence motions. The hon. gentleman has received your ruling, has risen on a spurious point of order.

I am now rising on a point of privilege, privilege ·of the House, that the hon. gentleman is flaunting your ruling and in flaunting your ruling, Mr. Speaker, he is abysmally abusing the privileges of this House and he should not be allowed to even discuss that way. Mr. Speaker, if he cannot control himself the House has to control him. MR. SPEAKER: To the point of privilege? MR. TULK: Take another go at him. MR. STIRLING: He is not worthy of a comment, Mr. Speaker. He is not worthy of a comment. MR.

SPEAKER: To the point of privilege I must say, you know, it has to be a very serious matter, of course, to be a point of privilege. Perhaps we should deal with it by way of a point of order, and once again I would ask the hon. the. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Stirling) if he would confine his remarks to the department which I have listed under the Resource Committee. I might also add, just for the hon. member's knowledge, that there was no point of order raised by the hon. the Minister of Fisheries(Mr. Morgan), he was not recognized as that. 6100

June 8~ 1981, Tape 2255, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER(Butt): The hon. the member for LaPoile. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition wishes to yield to the hon. the member for LaPoile? MR. NEARY: No, Mr. Speaker. No. MR. STIRLING: stood up to be recognized. MR . . NEARY: No, Mr. Speaker, the hon. member I have finished my time. Mr. Speaker, I am sorry that the . hon. the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development is not in his seat. I am sure he is within hearing distance of what I am going to say in connection with a case that I raised the other day, of Mr.

Bert Cull of Reidville. Now, Mr. Cull is one of the victims of the arrogance of this administration. Mr. Bert Cull has written me and asked me to raise this matter here in the House of Assembly in connection with his dealings with the provincial government, and how he was treated by this government. I am going to read all the correspondence if I have the time, Mr. Speaker, and I would like for members to pay very strict attention, especially on my own side of the House. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: Are you going to table it? Yes, I am going to table the correspondence but I am going to read it first.

Back in August, Mr. Speaker, of 1976, Mr. Bert Cull of Reidville wanted to bid on a planer that was stored at the Highways depot in Grand Falls. Well, Mr. Cull, after going down and looking at the planer at the Grand Falls transportation depot, submitted a tender on the planer. The planer, I might say, was one of a number of planers that were repossessed by the government, that weretaken back from the original owners because they defaulted on their loans to the Rural Development Authority. So in order for the 61 0 1

June 8, 1981, Tape 2255, Page 3 -- apb MR. NEARY: government to try to recoup some of the money that they lost, they repossessed these planers and a number of other items of sawmilling equipment. So Mr. Cull bid on it and Mr. Cormier, Director of Operations in the Government Purchasing Agency, wrote Mr. Cull on August 2nd. and he said: "Dear Sir, With reference to your letter dated July 20, 1976 covering the purchase of one two -sid ed planer, serial no . 141 -10 -R, located at the Depart:::ant of Transportation and Communications Depot at Grand Falls, you are advised that your tender is accepted.

Upon receipt of your certified cheque or money order in the amount of $1,050 plus 10 per cent retail sales tax for a total amount of $1,155 made payable to the Newfoundland Exchequer Account and forwarded to this agency, arrangements will be made for you to take delivery ." Well, the next thing, M.r. Cull got another letter 6102

June 8, 1981 Tape No. 22.5.6: NM - 1 MR. NEARY: from Mr. Cannier, Director of Operations Support Group of the Government Purchasing Agency. This one was dated August 5th. "Dear Sir; We are in receipt of your payment in the amount.of $1,155 covering the purchase of one two-sided planer, serial number 141-10-R, located at the Department of Transportation and Communications depot in Grand Falls. And attached for your record is receipts numbered 835241 and 835242.

The Department of Rural Development, owners of the unit, will be advised of the sale and arrangements will be made for you to take delivery. l.l And they enclosed the two copies of the receipts for the money that was submitted by Mr. Cull. Now,on August 18th., Mr. Cull says he went to the Department of Rural Development in Grand Falls, picked up a letter, the contents of which he stated, he gave the letter to Mr. Hussey at the Department of Transportation and Communications in Grand Falls and upon reading the le.tter Mr. Hussey gave Mr. Cull back the letter and he was told by Mr.

Hussey that the planer was out in the yard. So Mr. Cull proceeded into the yard and took receivership of the planer which he had inspected earlier, the planer which he had thought that he had bid on and was the successful bidder. He then took the planer to his home in Reidville. Now,that was fine. On August the 18th., then, Mr. Hussey wrote a letter- or Mr. Fagan rather 1 ·Business Management Specialist for Rural Development- telling Mr. Hussey that Mr. Cull was entitled to take the planer. And lo and behold on the 25th. of August 1976, what do you think happened? Well, Mr.

Speaker, remember during this time that Mr. Cull 1 when he originally went to the highways depot in Grand Falls, was merely told by the people at the highways 6103

June 8, 1981 Tape No . 2256 NM - 2 ~· NEARY: depot to go down and look at the planer himself. Nobody but nobody ever took him down to say, "Here is the planer that tenders are being called on and here is the planer that you have to bid on." So Mr. Cull assumed that he had bid on the right planer. And then when he was the successful bidder he brought the letter back, as I just i~dicated, to the highways depot who told him to go down and take his planer. But nobody went down to show him what planer to take. Nobody but nobody showed him what planer wa$ his. There were three or four planers there.

And so on the 25th. of August - just listen to the letter that came to Mr. Cull right out of the clear blue sky. "Dear Mr. Cull: You are hereby requested . to have one Newman planer, serial number 327663, moved to the depot of the Department of Transportation and Communications situated at Grand Falls, on or before 9:30A.M., by Friday the 27th. of August, 1976." Can you imagine the shock Mr. Cull got? "This machine must be moved by a suitable conveyance and be delivered to the depot in good condition.

If you do not adhere to this request the Depart­ ment of Rural Development will move it and instruct the Provincial Department of Justice to take action against you for the cost incurred. Yours truly, R.K. Stone, Business Management Specialist." Now Mr. Cull informs me that he received this startling letter on August 26th., 1976. The next day, August 27th., he went to Grand Falls to find out what the problem was and he was told that he took the wrong planer. And when he arrived home,the same day, a transport company was already at his house and picked up the planer.

The company's name was Chaulk Transport in Deer Lake. The Department of Rural Development did not even give him time to make the arrangements that they 6104

June 8, 19.81 Tape No. 22.5.6 . Na ":" 3 MR. NEARY: wanted hi.:I!l to make to re±:urn tli.e. planer. Itl less than twent~four h.ours they ~d C:llaul.k.ts Transport up . to h.is door to take the pl~. TD.ell on October 12th.. ( 19:.7EL a furth.er letter was wr:i::tten by the. Buliriness ~nage.ment Specialist, sent reg:i:stered mai:l. "Dear l!!r- Cull}" -this is on Octo:Cex 12th. -"Some t:i:roe ago you were awarded a tender on a used two-sided planer, serial lllli!Iber 141~10.-Rfl Que to a misunderstanding on your ~art,~ just listen to this, n due to a msun.derstanding on 6105

June 8, 1981 Tape 2257 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: your part"- not on the government's part now, not on the part of the Department of Rural Development who did not have anybody there to show him the plane4 or anybody in the Department of Transportation to take him down and show him ·::.he plarier that was on tender - "due to a misunderstanding on your part, you took delivery of the wrong machine after you made the payment. You have not contacted us as to your intention regarding the two-sided planer which is still at the Department of Transportation in Grand Falls.

Would you please write the Government Purchasing Agency, Confederation Building, St. John's and advise them as to whether or not you intend to accept this equipment. Your immediate reply would be appreciated." And then Mr. Cull wrote the Government Purchasing Agency on October 25th, thirteen days after he got this letter. He said: "Dear Sir: I am writing to reply to a letter dated October 12, 1976 from Mr. Thomas J. Fagan concerning the purchase of a two-sided planer.

When I submitted my bid for a two-sided planer, I understand it was the planer that I had inspected, and after being advised that my bid was accepted, I took possession of that particular planer. A short while after I had the planer it was picked up by your people and I was advised that I had taken the wrong planer. Mr. Fagan advises me that there is a planer still at the depot in Grand Falls if I should wish to pick it up.

I am not interested in the other planer and would prefer to have my money refunded, as I feel that there has been a gross misunderstanding, and I contend that I picked up the planer for which I had bid originally." And then on December 1st - that was written on October 25th, no reply, no reaction until December 1, 1976 when Mr. Cull was written again by Mr. Fagan, the Business Management Specialist for the 6106

June 8, 1981 Tape 2257 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: Department of Rural Development. Mr. Speaker, I know I only have a minute left. Perhaps one of my colleagues will intervene so that "I can continue to read the correspondence rather than not carry on with the - SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPE.IU<ER (Butti ; MR. NEARY: By leave. By leave. Well, if it is by leave I will finish reading it, Mr. Speaker, because it is a very interesting case and it is a sad case, and it indicates the contempt and the arrogance and the way the people of this Province are treated by the iron heel of this government.

On December 1st, 1976, he says: "Dear Mr. Cull: I have discussed your purchase of a two- sided planer with our St. John's office and the following alternatives are open to you. I understand you are not prepared to purchase the equipment and must therefore request that you pay the $327 moving expenses that were incurred by our department for the removal of the four-· sided planer which was taken by you. Your payment may be made directly or you may authorize us to deduct it from the amount of your tender. Should you do this, we would consider making a refund as you requested.

If we do not receive such authorization, you should be aware that we are legally entitled to collect the cost and make no refund. Your immediate reply would be appreciated.'' On the 22nd of February, 1977 by Registered Mail, another letter was written to Mr. Cull by Mr. Stone, Manager of the Rural Development Authority. It said: "Dear Mr. Cull: I refer you to our previous correspondence and your offer to purchase the two-sided planer at a price of $1,050 plus tax. If within the next two weeks you have not uplifted this item against payment of $327 as requested in our letter dated December 1st, we 6107

June 8, 1981 Tape 2257 EC - 3 MR. NEARY: shall regard this as a deliberate breach of the contrac:t on your part and the planer will be again put up for sale . Any loss sustained by us by virtue of the resale will , in addition to the above mentioned transport cost of $327,be deducted from the sum paid by you under your contract sale." Well, ~x . Speaker, Mr. Cull has been sitting on that now since 1977 and has not been able to get anywhere with the department.

They have withheld his money and they have treated h.im in a rather shabby fashion, certainly not the kind of a way that is becoming of a department of this government. In March of this year, Mr . Cull, being completely frustrated, decided that he would write me and send me all the correspondenc€ and ask me to raise this matter in a hope that it will be even tu ally satisfactorily resolved. On March 30, 1981, Mr. Cull wrote me the following letter: "I am sending you copies of all the letters which I received s1 us

June 8, 1981 Tape No. 2258 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: concerning a planer that I tendered on in July 1976 and would like your help in getting the matter cleared up and hopefully my money back. Briefly described below are the procedures that took place.Also,attached to some of the letters are notes to explain further:· And the minister has all of this correspondence in his possession. ''While travelling to Carmanville ~· he says, 'I stopped at the Department of Transportation and Communications in Grand Falls and inspected a planer which was advertised in the Gander Beacon paper the week before.

Upon arriving in Carmanville I phoned the Department of Rural Development in St. John's to find out if the tender was closed. I was advised at that time that I could tender on the planer, which I did:· Now, Mr. Speaker, I took all the correspondence and I sent it to the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development (Mr. Goudie). I said, 'Dear Mr. Goudie: Judging by the enclosed correspondence and documentation concerning the sale of a planer by your department, I think you will have to agree Mr. Cull was very badly treated.

It seems obvious that this problem arose because of a sloppy procedure in not indicating to Mr. Cull the actual planer on which he was bidding. Someone should have accompanied him to the yard to identify the repossessed planer so there would be no misunderstanding when delivery was made. In view of the circumstances surrounding this transaction, may I hope you will reconsider your decision to withhold $327 moving expenses and refund Mr. Cull the full amount of $1,155 which was his original bid.' The minister wrote me back on April 8, 1981.

Here is what the minister said, 'I am replying to your recent correspondence concerning Mr. Bert Cull. I 6109

June 8, 1981 Tape No. 2258 SD - 2 MR. NEARY: have received the correspondence and based upon the information contained therein, I can find no justification for Mr. Cull's claim.' The letter from Mr. Cormier dated August 2nd, 1976, informed Mr. Cull that he was the successful bidderona two-~ided planer ·serial no.l41-10-R. Correspondence dated August 25th and December 1st indicates that Mr. Cull took possession of a four-sided planer serial no. 327662.

Considering this I would suggest that while the mistake was honest' -the minister admits it was an honest mistake - 'while I admit the mistake was honest,it was clearly the responsibility of Mr. Cull to determine that he had the right planer.' Well, Mr. Speaker, if I was selling an item I think it would be incumbent on me to see that I was selling the right item and not incumbent on Mr. Cull. It was the minister and his officials who should have seen to it that the right planer was loaded aboard the equipment when Mr. Cull came to take delivery of that planer. Mr.

Speaker, it is absolutely ridiculous and absurd for the minister to make such a statemen~ that it was clearly the responsibility of Mr. Cull, a man who was sent down in the highway's depot yard in Grand Fall where there is all kinds of equipment, sent down. They said go down, your planer is down there'. He goes down with his truck and loads it, carts it away thinking that he had the right planer. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) tendered for? MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, "Further discussions with the officials involved at that point in time clearly indicate that Mr.

Cull was dealt with in a just and proper manner and I therefore cannot recommend that any further 611 0

June 8, 1981 Tape No. 2258 SD - 3 MR. NEARY: action be taken. Trusting this serves to clarify the situation:' Mr. Speaker, how can the minister, how can he say that Mr. Cull was dealt with in a just and proper manner with this 6 1 1 1

June 8, 1"981 Tape 2259 EC - 1 MR .• NEARY: kind of arbitrary action that was taken against this gentleman?, Now I understand the latest development is that the department is now admitting that Mr. · Cull had bid on the right planer and the planer he took horne was the one he bid on. What a rnerry~go-round, Mr. Speaker! You know, I have heard of the bureaucratic red tape and I have heard of the runaround that you _get from the bureaucrats, but it is the first time that I ever saw it documented. Mr. Cull went to the Minister of Health (Mr. House). his member, to try to get this matter straightened out.

There is not one piece of correspondence there from his own member to indicate that the member had lifted a finger to help him. MR. HOUSE: Did you show any correspondence he had to me? MR. NEARY: No, but, Mr. Speaker, I know from the conversations that I have had with Mr. Cull that he did make oral representation to the hon. gentleman to no avail. This man has been downtrodden, he has been trampled on by the bureaucrats and by this government. Mr. Moores always claims that he is the one who brought - what was it he brought to Newfoundland? - he put Newfoundland back on the road to prosperity, Mr.

Moores did, •SO he says, and he brought freedom to Newfoundland. There is the kind of freedom he brought to Newfoundland, the iron heel of this government. That man is entitled either to have his planer or have his eleven hundred and some odd dollars refunded to him, one or the other, Mr. Speaker. And this government should be ashamed of its high-handed tactics that they have used on this gentleman, a decent, honourable Newfoundlander who is trying to earn an honest living for himself and his family.

And the minister and his bureaucrats ought to be ashamed of the way they have treated this ordinary Newfoundlander. The man has been treated more shabbily than 611 2

June 8, 1981 Tape 2259 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: I have ever seen an individual treated by any government, and I .have seen some pretty raw cases . I hope the media will call Mr. Cull and take this correspondence, peruse it and go through it, and qu ·ery this matter. We heard the other day in the House about the Ombudsman and Human Rights. It would be a fat LOt of good now, Mr. Speaker, to take this either to the Ombudsman or to the Human Rights Commission or the Director of Human Rights in this Province. MR. HOUSE: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: other day. MR. HOUSE: MR. NEARY: MR. TULK: way. MR. NEARY: district. MR.

TULK: That is when I raised it, the Is that Cull? It is Bert Cull. He is in your district, by the He is in the hon. gentleman's He is in your district. MR. NEARY: The man has gone to everybody, he has gone to just about everybody out of desperation to try to get this matter resolved and hi~ pleas have fallen on deaf ears. And this is the kind of thing, Mr. Speaker, that we should be raising in this hon. House . . This is the kind of matter that we should be debating in this House, not some of the ridiculous matters that are brought up. MR. TULK: The bureaucracy in this Province is ridiculous. MR.

NEARY: Yes, that is right. I have never seen the likes of the bureaucracy in my life as indicated in this correspondence. 6 11 3

June 8, 1981 Tape 2259 EC - 3 MR. TULK: And the ministers will not protect the people. MR. NEARY: No, because what is happening is - the reason the ministers will not protect the people is because the bureaucrats are running the ministers. The Minis.ter of Health (Mr. House) is being dictated to and run by his bureaucrats. We saw an example of that the other day concerning the doctor in Placentia who is not allowed to visit his pa~~ents in the hospital. Dr. Taylor is not allowed to visit his patients in that hospital and he will not - MR. HOUSE: And he will not be until he (inaudible). MR.

NEARY: Oh, listen to the arrogance and the dictatorial attitude of the minister. I had a call from another doctor today who also worked with Dr. Taylor. The minister in replying to some questions I put to him in the House the other day told me Dr. Taylor was paid for his services while he was - MR. HOUSE: (Inaudible) . MR. NEARY: Oh, Mr. Speaker, the minister did say it. MR. HOUSE: If he travelled to the district -' and got no pay, he either got paid his fee for service or he was paid by (inaudible) . MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, Dr.

Taylor and the other doctor,whose name I will not mention now 1did not receive a red cent for their travels across the bay - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Baird) : Order, please! MR. NEARY: - in the helicopter. As a matter of fact, they lost money. MR. HOUSE: Dr. Penney (inaudible). 6 1 I I+

June 8, 1981 MR. S'PEAKER (Baird) : MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: Resource Committee. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker? Tape 2259 Order, please! Dr. Pe~ney was what? Order, please! EC - 4 I think we are discussing the We were discussing what, 6115

June 8, 1981 Tape No. 2260 DW - l MR. SPEAKER (Baird) : Resource Committee . MR. S. NEARY: Yes, right on. That was just a side note, Mr. Speaker. I was just pointing out to the House how the bureaucrats and the ministers walk on the people of this Province. And the ministers are being run by the bureaucrats. I cannot point to one minister, Mr. Speaker, on that side of the House who is running his own department. The running of the Province has fallen into the hands of bureaucrats and ministers would not dare, they would not dare get up against the bureau­ crats. They are afraid! They are too scared!

They are too weak and they are too timid! And as I said earlier, Mr. Speaker, one of the big problems in this Province at the present time is that we have a Premier who is weak. He is well-intentioned now mind you. He is a nice fellow. New­ foundlanders ~ike the way he fights but he is weak and we are not accomplishing anything. We have a weak Premier and a weak government, weak ministers. The bureaucrats are run­ nigher. And this is a classic exarnple,Mr.

Speaker of the damage that the bureaucrats can do in this Province when they want to; when they want to put the gears to an ordinary Newfoundlander,how they do it. They do it systematically, the Chinese torture. And the minister does not have the courage to stand up to the bureaucrats. MR. TULK: 'Chinese torture', good words. MR. S. NEARY: Yes, you are darned right it is Chinese torture. It would be worth your while - I wish I could bring Mr. Cull into this House, bring him in before the Bar of the House to give evidence in the case of this planer. I am more inclined to believe what Mr.

Cull says than I am what the bureaucrats say about this matter. I would like to bring Mr. Cull in and have him stand here and tell his side of the story. The government have his 6 1 ~ r, ld

June 8, 1981 Tape No. 2260 DW - 2 MR. S. NEARY: $1.155, they had it! There was nothing he could do! There was notPing Mr. Cul~ could do about it. He could not get it back. They had it and they withheld it, they withheld it for three or four years. And I do not know if it'has been refunded yet. If he has gotten his refund it is less the expenses of sending Chaulk's tractor trailer up to his house to load the planer while he was not horne, when he had gone down to the highways depot to take a look to see what they were talking about and try to defend himself.

He was not given a chance to defend himself, no more than the member for Carbonear (Mr. Moores) was given a chance to defend himself in this. hon•. House some time ago. But the hon. gentleman will be rewarded in the end! The hon. gentleman, just be a · little bit patient,he will be rewarded.According to the correspondence I have seen on that case,the hon. gentleman may be rewarded. But I cannot say the same for the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development (Mr. Goudie). And I am making a strong plea now, Mr. Speaker. I am making a plea on behalf of an ordinary Newfoundlander for a square deal. DR.

J. COLLINS: (inaudible) all the same. MR. S. NEARY: All the facts are there as I have them,and as I have them from Mr. Cull. But I am quite prepared. if the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) wants the facts,if the other side will agree,to have Mr. Cull brought in before the Bar of the House, which we are entitled to do 1 and have him give evidence to the House.and let the House be the jury, the judge and jury of whether or not this man has been mistreated by the government and by the Department of Rural, Agricul­ tural and Northern Development. AN HON. MEMBER: Ill-treated. 6 11 7

June 8, 1981 Tape No . 2260 OW - 3 MR. S. NEARY : Ill-treated. What is it they call it when you are looking for a divorc e? - Mental cruelty! The mental an~ish that is being caused to this man, Mr. Speaker, is unbelievable . Be is being ground down by the administration. But the man did not give up! Be is a proud Newfoundlander and I am glad to have the opportun~ty to raise his case in this Bouse, Mr. Speaker. I know it will fall on deaf ears. I did raise it with the mini ster. MR. ANDREWS: (Inaudible) . 611 8

June 8, 1981 Tape 2261 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: I raised it in a letter I wrote him. MR. MOORES: What did the man say (inaudible)? MR. NEARY: No,not a thing, except he has just taken the word of his bureaucrats. MR. MOORES: Now,there you go. MR. NEARY: That is all he has done. MR. MOORES: Another one under the (inaudible) thumb. MR. NEARY: So, Mr. Speaker, I make a strong plea 1 with all the energy that I have to this minister to ~ see that justice is done in this case. This is only one of many.

I ~entioned the doctor down in Placentia who the minister told us was paid while he relieved at the hospital and while he went across the Bay in helicopters,to see people across the Bay. He was not paid, he did not receive a red cent. MR. HOUSE: That is his own fault. MR. NEARY: That is not his own fault. It is the policy of the minister's department, and now he is not allowed, he is barred, he is not allowed to go in the hospital and visit his patients. Every doctor in St. John's can do it, but you cannot do it in Placentia for the simple reason, Mr.

Speaker, that what we have in this Province is a government that is city oriented, it is a St. John's government. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: Seven out of . eleven members elected in St. John's are in the Cabinet. MR. WARREN: Right on. MR. NEARY: That is why we are getting these kinds of policies. And that is why Mr. Cull is being shafted by this government. They have no feeling for rural Newfoundland. They campaigned in two or three elections 6 11 9

June 8, 1981 Tape 2261 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: telling us all the things they were going to do for rural Newfoundland. MR. TULK: (Inaudible) leadership saying no more rural, no more urban. MR. NEARY: That is right .. And the present Premier told us over at his leadership convention, 'no more rural , no more urban, everybody is going to be treated alike~ MR. WARREN: Right on. MR. NEARY: Well everybody, Mr. Speaker, is not treated alike in this Province. MR. WARREN: He is being controlled by the ministers-. MR. NEARY: Everybody is not treated alike. The doctors in St.

John's have more privileges than the doctors in Placentia. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: And if I were the Minister of Health (Mr. House), representing what I consider to be a rural part of this Province,! would not put up with it. I would kick over the traces. MR. TULK: I would threaten to resign too. MR. NEARY: And all you would have to do is follow the example of the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan), threaten to bail out of the Cabinet and you will get anything you want, you are dealing with such a weak-kneed crowd. MR. TULK: 'Jim' would quit I would say. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, as I say, just because people are scattered, just because they are scattered around this Province, just because it takes - Mr. HCUSE: (Inaudible) just like you do ever~~here else. MR. NEARY: Listen, listen, just listen - MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : Order, please! MR. NEARY: Go down and bring your deputy up 1 6120

June 8, 1981 Tape 2261 PK - 3 MR. NEARY: boy and put him outside of the door to tell you what to say. MR" SPEAKER (Mr.Baird): Order, please! I would ask the hon. member to direct his altercation to the Chair. And not across the floor. MR. S. NEARY: Thank you, Your Honour. I started .to say there,Mr. Speaker, - MR. SPEAKER: I would also like to remind him we have the Resources Committee. MR. NEARY: Yes.

Just because the population is scattered outside the overpass, it is scattered in four or five hundred communities , just because in order to get the same number of members in the House from Cape Bonavista to Cape Chidley,including al£ of Labrador and the Great Northern Peninsula, just because to get ten members elected in that whole area including Labrador,which is equal to what St. John's elects, Mr. Speaker, does not mean that the people should be punished.

Not because they are away from the seat of govern­ ment, not because they are away from the heart of government and the civil service and the government offices, and the House of Assembly , not because they are scattered all over Newfoundland 'they . should be discriminated against. But it would appear, Mr. Speaker, that that is what is happening. Because I can guarantee you that the Minister of Health (Mr. House) would not get away in the city of St. John's with what he is getting away with in Placentia, he would not get away with it. There would be an uproar. There was a time when all St.

John's had was six members and only one of them was in the Cabinet. Now they have seven Cabinet ministers out of eleven members elected in the city of St. John's in the Cabinet. Mr. Speaker, why one street in St. John's has more power than the whole of Reidville, one street in St. John's has more power than the whole of Reidville, the community I am talking about where Mr. Cull lives. One street 6121

June 8, 1981 Tape 2261 PK - 4 MR. NEARY: in St. John's has more power than Placentia. And that is why the minister can get away with these higil-haix:ed tactics and these policies. Mr. Speaker, it is unfair and it is undemocratic the way the balance of power is decided in this Province. It is unfair 6122

June 8,1981 Tape No. 2262 AH-1 MR. NEARY: and it is undemocratic. Mr. Speaker, the people outside the overpass here in St. John"s are a long ways away from Confederation Building, from the bureaucrats and the Public Service but because they are a long ways away, and because they are scattered in four or five hundred . communities, does not mean that they should be discriminated against. And, Mr. Speaker, I know I got kind of sidetracked there on the Department of Health ,but I could not help but drag that matter in because it does have some bearing on the subject.under discussion. It is a similar situation.

It indicates the arrogance and the weakness and the high-handed tactics. ?.ffi. w. HOUSE: That is · not weakness what you are talking about. MR. NEARY: If it is not weakness what is it? MR. HOUSE: It is strength. MR. NEARY: Strength. Mr . Speaker, the weakness I am talking about is these policies are designed by the bureaucrats. Not by the elected representatives, by the bureaucrats. These policies are developed and designed by the bureaucrats and all the minister is in this case is a mouthpiece, a mouthpiece,like Edgar Bergen and Charlie McCarthy. He is just a mouthpiece. So, Mr.

Speaker, I again want to appeal to the Minister of Rural Development (Mr. Goudie) in connection with Mr. Bert Cull. I know my plea will fall on deaf ears. I am glad the Premier came back into the House to hear about this case. I do not expect him to do anything about it.Because,as I said, Mr. Speaker, the Premier is a man who is well-intentioned. His intentions are honourable but, Mr. Speaker, he is weak, he does not have the strength of a leader, of a Premier, he does not have the strength.

He does not think it is important enough to stand up for the rights of one individual in this Province but if you multiply that by several thousand who 6 '1 2 3

', June 8,1981 Tape No. 2262 IB-2 MR. NEARY: have been treated the same way,then it becomes a problem of major proportions, Mr. Speaker. And so, Mr. Speaker, I now rest my case. I am sure my hon. friend, the member for St. Barbe (Mr. Bennett), is anxious to get on his feet, But I do hope the Minister of Rural Development . (Mr. Goudie) will take what I said seriously and not try to just slough it off by saying, 'Oh, justice was done'. Not only must justice be done it must appear to be done. And if the hon. gentleman has the courage, what he should do is send for Mr. Cull and listen to Mr.

Cull's side of the story and not just take the side of his bureaucrats, the bureaucrats have been known to be wrong, and not make an arbitrary decision to withhold Mr. Cull's $1,155 and use the~e high-handed tactics on a decent, honest, God fearing Newfoundlander. So, Mr. Speaker, I rest my case and I eagerly look forward to the hon. gentleman's reply to what I had to say. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I assume it is ten minutes debate. Is it ten minutes each? MR. SPEAKER: Ten minutes. MR. MORGAN: Mr.

Speaker, it is surprising that during this debate on the Resource Estimates that such trivial things are being brought forward in che House of Assembly in this debate and so many important issues - in fact the last speaker who sat down, tonigh~, for example in Rose Blanche there is a meeting of - what? - more than 200 fishermen from along that coast - we will have our man there tonight -with a major problem on their hands, a very major problem not mentioned in the House today.

There is a major problem on the Northwest Coast of the ~reat Northern Peninsula ,again with an Opposition member w~ ~ not the House for that district, not mentioned again. The 6 '12 4

June 8, 1981 Tape No. 2262 IB- J MR . NEARY : kind of problems that the fishermen have, the most important resource we have - we are t a lking about the resource estimates - and not one mention of. the most important resource that we have in our .Province . I wonder why it; i S:? I know why it is . 6 125

June 8, 1981 Tape No. 2263 GS - 1 MR. MORGAN: Because the issues are the results of regulations brought in by the federal Liberal government without consultation with the fishermen themselves, without consultation with development associations in the area and without consultation with this level of government. And examples on the Northwest coast of the Province right now; fishermen down there are totally frustrated with the federal regulations. A program came in two days ago with a telex signed by something like 400 fishermen and said, "Mr.

Minister, we are thoroughly fed up with the attitude of Monsieur LeBlanc in Ottawa. We cannot get hold of him, he will not respond to our correspondence, he will not reply to telephone calls. What can you do for us?" And I said, "Gentlemen, what Premier Peckford was saying month after month the last year and a half or so about not having any control over our destiny in the fishing industry is now coming home to roost.

We have no control over what you are trying to do up on the Great Northern Peninsula when we see boats out here with draggers' licences bringing in loads of fish and the remaining fishermen with longliners cannot get the necessary licences to go fishing." That is happening right now. MR. STAGG: No, that is not so! MR. MORGAN: Right now.

Right now on the Great Northern Peninsula these fishe~en are complaining about the fact that draggers' licences have been issued- are issued- how should I say? - indiscriminately, indiscriminately issued by the federal authorities for dragging licences by large boats in the Gulf - MR. TULK: Auto trawl, MR. MORGAN: - auto trawl licences. And in the meantime,there are certain people over here left out and he says, 'I am sorry, you cannot get a licence', and 6126

June B, 1981 Tape No. 2263 GS - 2 MR. MORGAN: we are saying, 'Well, why do you make chalk of one and cheese of another? Why is it happening? What are these fellows over here? Are they not Newfound­ landers, they cannot get licences to go out and making a living, a decent living using auto trawl? Why do a select few over here get licences and the others to be left out in the cold?' That question cannot be answered. Is that the reason why the han. gentleman from the area has not · raised the issue in this debate? Is that the reason why it is not being raised? You cannot hide your head in the sand any longer.

It is federal regulations and they are bad regulations. And why is it that the member for both districts in this case, the member who just left the Assembly, for LaPoile (Mr. Neary), why is it that if he is sincere in r~presenting his constituents, why can he not raise an issue that is so important to these fishermen down there, these drift-net salmon fishermen, who suddenly are now told the last two weeks, 'I am sorry, Mr. Jones, Mr. Smith and others, I am sorry, Mr. Jones and Mr. Smith, I am sorry, Mr. Rose - a typical example is Mr. Rose in Rose Blanche - Mr.

Rose, I talked to him a few nights ago,on the weekend. I get hundreds of calls at my home in the evening or on the weekend from fishermen all over the Province who are frustrated with what is going on with the federal regulations. An example, Mr. Walburn Rose from Rose Blanche who wanted me to come down to tonight's meeting. I told him that if I could do it at all, I would get down there but if I could not get there I would have a man there from my department. We explained our position to him. MR. HOUSE: Whose district is that in? Whose district is that in? 6 •J2 7

June 8, 1981 Tape No, 2263 GS - 3 MR. MORGAN: Here is the situation where 200 drift-net fishermen and arbitrarily -this year the federal government says, 'No more compensation for you fishermen. You cannot go fishing but you will not get paid either.' Now that is a very major issue. They have all kinds of fishing gear down there they bought over the last number of years. They were unable to go fishing last year and they got paid for not fishing, and rightly so. This year arbitrarily the federal government says, 'I am sorry, Mr.

Rose and all you other fishermen, we are not going to compensate you for not . fishing and we are not going to give you any quota for salmon this year, but, 'but', Mr. Speaker, 'but' we are going to give a quota for drift-net fishermen and salmon fishermen this year in New Brunswick'. Why in New Brunswick? I would not dare say it is because of the fact that the Minister of Fisheries at the federal level (Mr. LeBlanc) is from that province. I would not dare say that.

Surely he is not playing politics with the fishermen but the question remains unanswered, 'Why is it these fishermen on the Southwest coast of our Province are discriminated against?' The fishermen I talk to tell me the han. gentleman has not shown too much concern. That is a quote. The fishermen from LaPoile say, 'Well, Mr. Neary is not showing any concern for us, Mr. Morgan, not showing any concern for us' - SOME RON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Baird) : MR. MORGAN: MR. SPEAKER: MR. MORGAN: Oh, oh! Order, please! A point of order, the hon. - - 'so give us some help, Mr. Morgan'. Order, please!

That is a quote I get from the fishermen down in LaPoile district. MR . SPEAKER: The hon. member from LaPoile. 6 ·1 2 B

June 8, 198 1 Tape No. 2263 GS - 4 ~. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman knows that he cannot give misleadin9' information to this House. I was the one who arr~ged the meeting for the fishermen tonight in·Rose Blanche in case the hon. gentleman does not know it. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I am quoting - MR. SPEAKER (Baird): To the point o£ order, the hon. member took the opportunity to explain the item brought up by the hon. member. MR. MORGAN: - I am quoting fishermen who called me no longer than Friday night and Saturday at home this past weekend. 'Mr.

Neary' does not care for our problems;' I quote, 'Does not care for our problems'. SOME HON. MEMBERS : ShalTie, shame. MR. MORGAN: 'Mr. Morgan, what can you do?' And I said, well, I said this is a federal matter. 'But we were led to believe, Mr. Morgan, this was not a federal matter, that you control this matter. Can you help us out?' 6129

June 8, 1981 Tape No. 2264 DW - 1 MR. J. MORGAN: I said, 'Well, who is leaving the impression that we control these things'? 'Well, we under­ stand this from our provincial member,that it is a provincial matter. They can compensate if they want to.' That is a quote! That is the kind of pa~sing of the buck - MR. F. WHITE: Keep your voice down! MR. J. MORGAN: They do not want us - the hon. gentleman for Lewisporte (MR. White) says, 'Keep your voice down'. Well, I have right now 250 fishermen from his district who cannot get CFV numbers from the federal government. Do you know what that means to them, , Mr..

Speaker? It means they cannot go fishing this Summer. He says, 'Keep my voice down? Keep my voice down? Keep my voice down? Lis.tening here to the trivial matters brought forward to this House of Assembly, trivial matters,in this debate and all. these problems we have today in the fishing industry which is controlled almost totally by the federal government - almost totally - all of these problems left in the hands of the federal authorities.

And these people over here sitting on the opposite side of the House who are so friendly with members in Ottawa, who are so friendly they can talk to them every night if they want to. They are so friendly with Mr. LeBlanc they can call him on the phone and say, 'Hi, Romeo, how are things today?' Sure they can talk to them, they can talk to them! 'Hi, Mr. Romeo, how are things today? •,. but thev cannot get the problems resolved!

They cannot get the problems resolved and that is the reason why they are so quiet in these issues, the issue of 250 fishermen on the Great Northern Peninsula who are threatening to say, 'We are going to quit the fishing industry unless the licensing system is straightened up to our satisfaction'. No longer than three days ago. 1>1R. THOMS: What would you do? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. J. MORGAN: Today out in Conception Bay- 6130

June 8, 1981 Tape No. 2264 DW - 2 MR. J. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, someone said, 'Why do I talk so loud?' Well, it is obvious. Those people are interfering over there, Mr. Speaker, you cannot hear 'me. MR. SPEAKER (Baird): Order, please! MR. J. MORGAN: Even today, Mr. Speaker, in the media-fishermen not led by any political activity or anybody behind them - genuinely concerned fishermen are saying, 'Unless the federal licensing matter is straightened up regarding the caplin fishery, it is going to be a total disaster this year in Conception Bay'. A quote from the media today from fishermen.

All these issues regarding the Province's most important industry. And , I mean, in ten minutes there is no way I can cover any more than two. I will refer to these two major problems because they are affecting members of the Opposition's districts who have made representations to me asking for my help and my assistance and they are saying they have a lack of concern shown to them by their own member.

Quote, So if we are so concerned about New­ foundland, concerned about people getting loans from Rural Development and these kind of things,if you are concerned about these matters surely you must be concerned for your constituents. And it is not good en~mgh to merely say, 'Well, okay, I will get a couple of federal officials down to a meeting and they will go down and have a meeting with you.

The fact is that if they are so chummy and friendly, and I assume they are,with their colleagues in Ottawa, especially the federal minister, it is merely getting on the phone and saying, 'Hi Romeo, this is 'Steve' here' or 'Hi Romeo, this is somebody else. Look, I have a major problem here affecting 250 fishermen . ForGed's sake get it resolved! It is a big issue'. But no, Mr. Speaker, the reason why they are hiding their heads in the sand is because the federal government's regulations that are 6 I 3 1

June 8, 1981 Tape No. 2264 DW - 3 MR. J. MORGAN: governing our fishery today are spelling disaster for our fishermen ,and for our fishing industry. SOME HON. IvEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Baird) : MR. T. BENNETT: Hear, hear! The hon. member for St. Barbe. Mr. Speaker, it is quite interesting to hear the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) suggesting that we are not talking enough around the fishery. Indeed, Mr. Speaker, we would like to talk an awful lot more about the fishery but we would like to talk about it on a provincial level where the responsibility for the fishery lies with the provincial scheme of things. MR.

NEARY: Right on. MR. T. BENNETT: Let the voter on a federal level take care of the federal meMbers. They will take care of them in the right time in the right place when the time comes iust like - l.ffi. MORGAN: (Inaudible) sure they will. MR. T. BENNETT: Now, Mr. Speaker, I would like to be able to carry on in peace and a little bit of silence. MR. SPEAKER: MR. T. BENNETT: Order, please! Order, please! I sat quietly and listened to the minister and I would like to reply to a few of the remarks he made. Mr.

Speaker, if the Minister of Fisheries and,indeed, his government in general) the various departments of government,paid more attention to the departments, Mr. Speaker, which they have control and juris­ diction over - MR. MOORES: The Fisheries Loan Board. 61 3 2

June 8, 1981 Tape No. 2264 DW - 4 MR. T. BENNETT: - the Fisheries Loan Board, the water systems, the processing plants and the labour inten­ sive end of the fishery generally, Mr. Speaker, if they paid more attention -to that- 61 3 J.

June 8,1981 Tape 2265 PK - 1 MR. MORGAN: MR. BENNETT: What happened to the St. Barbe plant? - then we would certainly have more employment in our Province - MR. MORGAN: MR. TULK: numbers? What happened to the St. Barbe plant? wpat .would you do with CFE MR. BENNETT: A great question. The St. Barbe plant will go ahead in time, Mr. Speaker. Look, in St. Barbe district right now we are hauling fish away from the Port au Choix plant. In the Port aux Basques area just a few days ago 1 I was talking to the owner of that operation and he is telling me,by way of comparison- so I feel that when a man such as Mr.

Hardy,who.knows what he is talking about in the fishery, and I wish we had a man like him as Minister of Fisheries who would know the fishery and know the direction in which to go, Mr. Speaker, to conserve the stocks and support a labour force - Mr. HardT is telling me in his plant over there, he has 1,250 employees and it takes about 350 in the fishing force to support that 1,250 work force onshore. Now,the resource sector of the fishery- if this government paid more attention, Mr. Speaker, to the development of that resource onshore we would have an awful more employment in the Province. Mr.

Speaker, - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh~ MR. SPEAKER (Baird) : Order, please! MR. BENNETT: - 90 per cent of our fish goes to the United States market so I am told. Somewhere between 85 per cent and 90 per cent goes to the American market,primarily 1 because the American market will accept it in the form that we send it. We are not sending it out a processed and in a developed manner. I understand, Mr. Speaker, we have 155 61 3 4

June a, 1981 Tape 2265 PK - 2 MR. BENNETT: fish plants around the Province with about 55 of these having freezing facilities. Now 1 the minister can get up and ramble off and flog Ottawa for their licencing policy, hut it is about time that the minister paid attention to the home resource,. the material that he has the jurisdiction over. MR. MORGAN: What happened to the St. Barbe plant? MR. BENNETT: Well,what happened to Parson's Pond ;Plant.? What happened to the Cow Head plant? We have not been able to get water syste~to these little plants.

Last year Cow Head lost millions of dollars because your government - MR. TULK: MR. MORGAN: MR. BENNETT: Tell us about that. "Morgan 1 • {Inaudible}. - Municipal Affairs would not provide $30,000 to that water system, to that Cow Head water plant. So, Mr. Speaker, if more licences are :r:eeded, then, just to harvest fish, as much as I would lik .e to see dragger licences extended,and I suspect they shall be ex- tended sc that there will be more available in my district, the district of St.

Barbe- now I realize there is a shortage of dragger licences in the district that I represent. rn the Port au Choix area there are quite a number of dragger boats in operation. And I t~k the Federal Department of Fisheries is very much aware that the gill net fishing which at one time, just a few years ago, Mr. Speaker, was the .thing to be into, the gill net fishing today is an obsolete method of catching fish because it is being overtaken by the more sophistcated, more modern method of dragger licences. But, Mr.

Speaker, these draggers are catching a lot of fish and if this governrrent would take a real look at the area in which they themselves can work on and develop, 6135

June 8, 1981 MR. BENNETT: MR. TULX: MR. BENNETT: Tape 2265 - namely processing - And the price of fish. - if this government would take the responsibility they~ elected to do- AN HON. MEMBER: And the price of lobsters. PK - 3 MR. BENNETT: - the prices of the various species, like the lobsters and the cod and the herring - MR. TULK: Yes, he guaranteed that. MR. BENNETT: Herring is eight cents a pound in my district now, and then it is frozen and sold back to the fishermen for sixteen cents. Mr. Speaker, there are more discrepancies than just the licencing of more draggers.

And I think the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) could resolve a lot of these problems if he took a l~ok at the 155 fish plants we have in operation around the Province, that were built by the Liberal government of the day before the Tories came to power. And if the ·minister realized that there are less than 55 of these with freezing facilities, if the minister would threaten his colleagues with resignation, unless they put three phase power and water systems and decent roads - MR. TULK: going to use it again? MR.

BENNETT: 'M:lrgan' when are you - and the services and the various facilities that are needed to develop the industry - the minister talks about the frustration of the fishermen- The fishermen might be frustrated for want of licences to drag fish, Mr. Speaker, but they are 61 3 6

June 8, 1981 Tape No. 2266 RA - 1 MR. T. BENNETT: also frustrated in the field of development and process­ ing. Everypody does not want to be a fishe 'rman. MR. MORGAN: MR. T. BENNETT : Mr. Speaker. MR. WARREN: MR. T. BENNETT: (Inaudible) Everybody cannot be a fisherman, What about the people of Bonavista? There are other things connected with the fishery other than just catching fish. And I said earlier 90 per cent of our fish goes to the American market, pri- marily because it does not have the quality to go to the European or to a better market for a better price.

And it seems to me that this government is doing so little about it. I wish the minister would pay attention to the Fisheries Loan Board. I can give him example