MG-8048 Fourth Session -T hirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS .(HANSARD) 42 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XLII No. 81A - 1:30 p.m., MONDAY, JUNE 14,1993 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETI, Becky CARST AIRS, Sharon CER ILLI, Marianne CHEEMA, Guizar CHOM IAK, Dave CUMM INGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCH ARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim , Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FIN DLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GI LLESHAM MER, Harold, Hon. GRAY, Avis HELWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LA THLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PALLISTE R, Brian PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID , Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy WOWCHUK, Rosann Vacant Vacant CONSTITUENCY Osborne Thom pson Wellington River He"1ghts Radisson The Maples Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin- Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur- Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charl eswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Crescentwood Gimli Point Douglas Inkster The Pas St. Norbert Elmwood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Pembina Portage Ia Prairie Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Flin Flon La Verendrye Fort Garry St.

Johns Swan River Rossmere Rupertsland PARTY Liberal NDP NDP Liberal NDP Liberal NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC Liberal PC NDP Liberal NDP PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP

41 57 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, June 14, 199::. The House met at 1 :30 p.m. Mr. Clerk (William Remnant): I must advise the House of the fact that Mr. Speaker is not available, and I would therefore, in accordance with the statutes, call upon the Deputy Speaker to take the Chair. (Mrs. Louise Dacquay, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair) PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Mr. Jerry Storie (FIIn Flon): Madam Deputy Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Isabel Acheson, John Pelletier, Loreen Stevens and others reques ting the Minister of Health (Mr.

Orchard) consider restoring the Chi ldren's Dental Program to the level it was prior to the 19 93-94 budget. READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Madam Deputy Speaker: I have reviewed the petition (Ms. Cerilli), and it complies with the rules and the practices of the House. Is it the pleasure of the House to have the petition read? [agreed] Mr.

Clerk (William Remnant): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that: WHERE AS Manitoba has the high est rate of child poverty in the country; and WH EREAS over 55,000 children depend upon the Children's Dental Program ; and WH EREAS several studies have pointed out the cost savings of preventative and treatment health care programs such as the Childr en's Dental Program ; and WH EREAS the Chil dren's Dental Program has been in effect for 17 years and has been recognized as extremely cost-effective and critical for many families in isolated communities; and WHER EAS the provincial government did not consult the users of the program or the providers before announcing plans to eliminate 44 of the 49 dentists, nurses and assi stants providing this service; and WHERE AS preventative health care is an essential component of health care reform.

WHEREF ORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legisla tive Asse mbly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) consider restoring the Childr en's Dental Program to the level it was prior to the 19 93-94 budget. Madam Deputy Speaker: I have reviewed the petition (Mr. Maloway). It complies with the rules and the practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed] Mr.

Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that: WHERE AS Manitoba has the highest rate of child poverty in the country; and WHERE AS over 55,000 children depend upon the Children's Dental Program ; and WHERE AS several studies have pointed out the cost savings of preventative and treatment health care programs such as the Children's Dental Program; and WH EREAS the Children's Dental Program has been in effect for 17 years and has been recognized as extremely cost-effective and critical for many families in isolated communities; and WH EREAS the provincial government did not consult the users of the program or the providers before announcing plans to eliminate 44 of the 49 dentists, nurses and assi stants providing this service; and WHERE AS preventative health care is an essential component of health care reform.

WHEREF ORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legisla tive Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) consider restoring the Childr en's Dental Program to the level it was prior to the 19 93-94 budget.

41 58 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 14 , 19 93 ••• • (1 335) (Mr. Speaker in the Chair) Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Ashton). It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed] Mr.

Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that: WHERE AS the state of High way 391 is becoming increasingly unsafe; and WHER EAS due to the poor condition of the road there have been numerous accidents; and WHER EAS the condition of the road between Thomps on and Nelson House is not only making travel dangerous but costly due to frequent damage to vehicles; and WHER EAS this road is of vital importance to residents who mu st use the road.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legis lature of the Province of Manitoba may be pl eased to reques t that the gove rnment of Manitoba consider reviewing the state of Hi ghway 391 with a view towards improving the condition and safety of the road. ••• Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Chomiak). It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed) Mr.

Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens ot the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that: WHE REAS Manitoba has the highest rate of child poverty in the country; and WHER EAS over 55,000 children depend upon the Childr en's Dental Program ; and WHER EAS several studies have pointed out the cost savings of preventative and treatment health care programs such as the Children's Dental Program ; and WHER EAS the Chi ldren's Dental Program has been in effect for 17 year s and has been recognized as extremely cost-effective and critical for many families in isolated communities; and WHERE AS the provincial government did not consult the users of the program or the providers before announcing plans to eliminate 44 of the 49 dentists, nurses and assi stants providing this service; and WHERE AS preventative he alth care is an essential component of health care reform.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legis lative Assemb ly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) consider restoring the Childr en's Dental Program to the level it was prior to the 19 93-94 budget. PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Mrs. Louise Dac qu ay (Chair person of Committ ees): Mr. Speaker, the Commit tee of Supply has considered certain resolutions, directs me to report progress and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the honourable member for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson), that the report of the committee be received.

Motion agreed to. Mr. Jack Reimer (Act ing Chairperson of the St anding Committee on Law Amendments): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the First Report of the Commi ttee on Law Amendments . Mr. Clerk (William Remnan t): Your Standing Commit tee on Law Amendments presents the following as its First Report. Your committee met on Wednesday, June 9, 19 93, at 7 p.m. in Room 255 of the Legislative Building to consider bills referred. Your comm ittee has considered: Bill 6-- The Real Property Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les biens reels and has agreed to report the same with the following amendments: MOTION: THAT clause 2(

b) of the bill be struck out and the following substitute d: (

b) by adding "and takes effect from the clay the instr umen t is assigned a serial number" after "district registrar". MOTION:

June 14 , 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 41 59 THAT the proposed subsection 52(3.1), as set out in subsection 3(2) of the bill, be amended by striking out "presented for registration or entered in the data storage syst em," and su bstitu ting "assigned a serial number,". MOTION: THAT

Section 5 of the bill be struck out and the following substituted: 5 Subsection 72(4) is amended by striking out "exercising the function of a notary public or having ju risdiction or authority as a notary public in Canada, (hereinafter referred to as an officer) that officer" and substituting ", referred to in subsection (5) as an officer, the officer". Your comm ittee has also considered: Bill 7- The Builders' Liens Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur le privilege du constructeur and has agreed to report the same without amendment. Your comm ittee has also considered: Bill 8- The Insurance Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les assurances and has agreed to report the same with the following amendment: MOTION: THAT the English version of

Section 7 of Bill 8 be amended by striking out "of' where it occurs for the second time. Your comm ittee has also considered: Biii 12 -T he International Trusts Act;

Loi sur les fiducies internationales Biii 19- The Cour t of Quee n's Bench Am endment and Cons equ ential Amendments Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia Cour du Bane de Ia Reine et ap portant des mo difications correlatives a d'autres loi and has ag reed to report the same without amendment. All of which is respectfully subm itted. Mr. Reimer: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable member for Portage Ia Prairie (Mr. Pallister), that the report of the comm ittee be received. Motion agreed to. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 43- The Manitoba Lotteries Foundation Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Mr.

Speaker, I move (on beha lf of the honourable Mi nister of Cul ture, Heritage and Citizenship (Mr s. Mitchels on)), seconded by the honourable Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Findlay), that Bill 43, The Manitoba Lotteries Founda ti on Amendmen t and Con seq uential Amendme nts Act ; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia Fondation manitobaine des loteries et apportant des modifications correlatives a une autre loi, be introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. * (1 340) Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery, where we have with us this afternoon from the Robert Smith School fifty Grade 5 students under the direction of Ms. Carlotta Kulpak and Mr. George Peters. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar).

On behalf of all honourable memb ers, I would like to welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Barley Marketing Plebiscite Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition) : Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minister (Mr. Filmon). Mr. Speaker, we were visiting some of the rural communities over the weekend as the Premier was in Ottawa elec ting the new Leader of the Con se rvative Party.

Many producers in rural Manitoba, as I am sure the Premier is well aware, are extremely concerned about the unilateral ways in which Charlie Mayer and the federal government are changing the policies on agriculture in Canada, unilateral action and arbitrary action that seem quite opposite to the comments made by the Prime Minis ter - designate, with the talk about

416 0 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 14 , 19 93 inclusiveness and empowerment of people and a different style of decision making. Many producers are saying they should have the ultim ate say on whether there will be changes to the Wheat Board in terms of barley. There should be a plebiscite, something that has been said before by producers. Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) : Will he be calling on the Prime Min ister -designa te to have a plebis cite to determine the manner in which we are going to be dealing with barley, as many farm groups have stated, or is it going to be business as usual in terms of the unilateral action of Charlie Mayer, as repor ted by the former Prime Mi nister in the country? Hon. Glen Findlay (Minis ter of Agriculture): Mr. Speaker, the member has asked that question before in the House. I think farmers do want an opportunity to choose what they do in running their business.

Whether the Wheat Board is selling in the United States or whether it is somebody they choose to do the marketing for them, that is their choice. I think that is a fair and reasonable way to do business. The Wheat Board, I know, will be able to compete very well in the private sector. In addition to that, one of the me mbe r's colleagues attended the Gate to Plate Conference in February in Portage, and farmers talked about value-added diversification and more empha sis on marketing and returning more value to the farm gate.

They talked about those issues, and they said we need to be freed up, have an opportunity to earn a living from the marketplace by ourselves, and we look for the opportunity to do our sales from the farm gate to wherever we want to sell it. Mr. Speaker, this opportunity is there. If the member is worried about a plebiscite, there will probably be one before the end of the year called the federal election. Mr. Doer: Mr.

Sp eaker, anyb ody living in Manitoba should remem ber past elections where the media has called a majority government or a minority government before the votes have even been counted in western Canada, before the votes have even been counted in Manitoba. Western Canadian producers whom we listened to over the weekend and have been listening to for the last number of months want to have a direct say in their marketing board and not have it determined by 95 seats in Ontario and 78 seats in Quebec, which has trad itionally happened in western Canada. Barley Marketing Premier's Position Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): I read the text of Kim Campbell's speech today. There was absolutely no reference to agriculture. She is talking about a different way of doing business. Over the same weekend, Brian White has been critical of Charlie Mayer in dealing with unilateral actions. He says it is unacceptable for the federal government to be dealing with these changes in this way, on both the Crow rate and the changes on orderly marketing of barley in the Wheat Board.

I would like to ask the Premier: Will he be taking a position at the Rrst Ministers' meeting with the new Prime Minister-desig nate to have a plebiscite for western Canadian producers? Will he be taking a new style of inclusive politics to that First Ministers' meeting, or is it going to be business as usual with Charlie Mayer and the same kind of action for producers as we had with Brian Mulroney with Kim Campbell, Mr. Speaker? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier) : Mr. Speaker, if the member opposite read the entire text of the speech, he will know that there was no reference to fishing.

There was no reference to forestry. There was no reference to mining. There was no reference to oil. There was no reference to many things. Obviously, there was discussion about the big pi ctu re, about the futur e , about Ca nada's challenges and Canada's opportunities, but I know that is something New Democrats are not aware of. They rarely can see the big picture and they rarely can get into those kinds of major-issue discussions, but that is okay. Mr.

Speaker, yes, indeed, I will always seek an opportunity to talk about consensus, to talk about bringing all parts of the country together, and will indeed look forward to an opportunity to co-operate with my fellow Premiers as well as the new Prime Minister and look for common solutions that meet our needs and our problems throughout all of the regions of Canada. * (1 345)

June 14 , 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 4161 Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, I guess only the Canadian people will ultimately decide whether the Prime Minister-designate was talking about the big picture or whether that in fact was the last picture in terms of the Mulroney policies. I was disappointed the Premier did not tell us whether there would be a new change in terms of involving western Canadian producers on some of these very important issues. Barley Marketing Government Position Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Again, Mr.

Speaker, Brian White goes on to say over the weekend that he was absolutely shocked that he and other federal Conservative M.P.s were received by Charlie Mayer--in terms of the treatment they received from Charlie Mayer. It was brutally frank. It was not a productive meeting. We came out of the meeting, with our own federal Minister of Agriculture, absolutely shell-shocked because he was not willing to wait and discuss this issue with farmers and the people. I would like to ask the Premier (Mr.

Filmon): What position will the Premier be taking to the First Ministers' meeting on the method of payment that has major implications for producers? It has major implications for railways. It has major implications for communities in ru ral Manit oba. It has implications for all kinds of issues dealing with our western Canadian economy. What position will the Premier take to that meeting on that very important industry for Manitoba? Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agricu lture) : Mr. Speaker, the transportation question of method of payment has been around western Canada for a long, long time.

The Crow benefit was put in place for the benefit of western Canada in 1897. Farmers have talked about the reason why it is in place, whether the money that goes to offset the cost of transporting should come to them or should go to the railroads. Mr. Speaker, there has been a lot of discussion on the topic. Some people obviously identify that the development of the livestock industry is going to be inhibited by maintaining the present method of payment and that changing the method of payment will increase the opportunity to diversify and value-add on farms in rural Manitoba.

I have a lot of confidence in the panel chairman that has been appointed by Mr. Mayer-Or. Ed Tyrchniewicz, a graduate of the University of Manitoba, now the Dean of Agriculture at the University of Alberta. Mr. Speaker, many other good western Canadian and eastern Canadian citizens will be appointed to that panel. They will analyze the information that is at hand and determine a course of action that will be good for the further development of western Canada. Firearms Control Pellet Guns Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Mr.

Speaker, recently the rates of violent crime in the city of Winnipeg and the province of Manitoba, violent crime and criminal activity, especially by young people, have increased at a very alarming rate. In some cases, it appears that youth gangs and other activities have gotten completely out of hand, including a most frightening, recent example of a fourteen-year-old girl who was hit in the leg with a pellet gun. I would like to know what the provi ncial government's policy is on the use and acquisition of pellet guns in the province of Manitoba? Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr.

Speaker, we here in Manitoba have strong concerns, as reflected in the views stated to us by members of the public, about violence in general and youth violence in particular. There has indeed been an escalation in the level of and frequency of violent offences being committed in Manitoba. That is why recently at the meeting of Attorneys General in Quebec City, Manitoba and Alberta raised very forcefully the issue of a review of the Young Offenders Act. We were able to achieve another review-the last one was back in 1989-of all aspects of the Young Offenders Act.

Manitoba also pressed for an earlier meeting to follow the one we just had, rather than waiting a full year. The consensus at that meeting was that we would meet again in the fall, after the review of the Young Offenders Act is complete, to look at amendments to that.

416 2 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA June 14 , 19 93 But we ought, also, Mr. Speaker, to look beyond just the Young Off enders Act, because that is only one part of the picture when we are dealing with young offenders, and perhaps I can deal with that further in response to the next question. *

(1350) Ms. Barrett: I appreciate the information and the update on the Young Offenders Act, but given the fact that the Young Offenders Act and the Criminal Code in the province of Manitoba deal right now with offences after they have occurred, I would like to ask the minister what his government is prepared to do, what steps he is prepared to take immediately to remove pellet guns from the hands of young people, which has a potentially harmful, if not fatal, impact. What immediate steps is he prepared to take provincially to deal with this explosive issue? Mr. McCrae: Manitoba is a key player, Mr.

Speaker, in national discussions on crim e prevention issues. At a recent conference dealing with crime prevention in our country, we studied a report put out by Dr. Bob Horner, an M.P. in Ottawa, who put out an all-party report that flowed from the Standing Committee on Justice & Solicitor General. It sets out a national strategy for dealing with crime prevention. The honourable member wants me to respond directly to the question about pellet guns and, you know, Mr.

Speaker, pellet guns are one dangerous item, as are kitchen knives, as are guns, as are slingshots, as are various utensils, if I may call them that. When they are used in the wrong way and by the wrong people, they become dangerous weapons. Any young offender accused of a crime, and that crime has included the use of an

article like that, is dealt with very seriously indeed by my department and hopefully by the judiciary. Ms. Barrett : Mr. Speaker, what assurances can this government give to the people of Manitoba that they will in effect do anything about this particular issue of pellet guns, when six months ago the City of Winnipeg and this opposition asked the Minister of Justice to investigate the possibility immediately of having knives be unacceptable and illegal when carried in public? That was six months ago. We have heard nothing from this minister.

How long is it going to take for this minister to do something about this particular issue, and who is going to- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member has put her question. Mr. McCrae: In asking her question about this, the honourable member fails to take note that before this government came into power in 1988, no government before us took serious stands on issues related to violence in our society. It is honourable members on this side of the House who have made the reduction and elimination of violence in our society a high, high priority for us as a government. I could talk

chapter and verse all afternoon, Mr. Speaker, about measures this government has brought forward to deal with violence in our society. The honourable member sometimes misses the point because we have significant gun control measures in Canada now which are the envy of law enforcement agencies south of the border, for example, yet we still have offences committed with the use of firearms. That is very bothersome, so I think the time has to come when we deal very seriously with those people who would do those kinds of things. That is precisely what we are doing here in Manitoba.

Federal-Provincial Relations Transfer Payments Mr. Paul Edwards (Le ader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Premier. Now that that other leadership race is over, the Premier this morning has heralded in a new dawn, he says, a new dawn in relations between our government and the federal government. I want to ask the Premier, taking him at his word on this very important occasion where we are rebuilding this relationship, what assurances he received from Ms. Campbell before signing on to her camp. It is now over and she has been successful.

Presumably, he had some criteria which he based his choice on. My question for the Premier-for instance, an urgent matter for her was reduction of the deficit. [interjection] Surely the Premier did not just jump on the bandwagon of the perceived frontrunner. He must have had some criteria. He

June 14 , 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 416 3 must have gotten some assurances from her in his position as the Premier of Manitoba. My question for the Premier: Did he receive assurances, for instance, that this province would not be penalized in a further reduction of transfer payments given that Ms. Campbell has indicated she wants no deficit within the next five years? Can the Premier tell us, did he get a commitment from her with respect to any further reduction of transfer payments to this province? * (1 355) Hon.

Gary Fllmon (Premier) : I would think that a question that talks about party politics and federal issues, Mr. Speaker, is totally out of order. It is a very silly question, and for somebody who has been in a leadership race, I would like to see the written commitments he made to the 810 people who voted for him. If he is willing to table those, I will answer that question. Mr. Edwar ds: Ms. Campbell is the Prime Minister-elect of this country. This is the Premier. He was on TV yesterday, schmoozing with her.

I am asking him, in this new relationship, this new dawn, what commitments has he received that this provin ce will be treated fairly? He said in December of 1992 th at he was absolutely disgusted. He said he unloaded a litany of complaints about this province's complaints with the federal government. What will the new era bring for our province? Did he receive any commitments when he was there from the new Prime Minister with respect to transfer payments to this province, which is a matter of very serious interest to all Manitobans?

Did he receive any commitments that this would not be the way that this new Prime Minister seeks to balance the books? An Honourable Member: No-schmooze Paul. Mr. Fllmon: I think all the schmoozes are in that party, Mr. Speaker. I think the member opposite has his tongue firmly planted in his cheek when he asks these questions. Mr. Speaker, we are talking about party politics here in Question Period. This may-[interjection] Mr. Speaker, the member opposite will get a chance to judge the wisdom of my choice as an individual member of my party for the leadership of the party during the forthcoming election.

He may be very concerned, as 1. noted most of his federal colleagues were, about the selection of Ms. Campbell, because I am sure she represents a tremendous threat to them. When I see Sheila Copps and Michael Kirby there tearing her down, I know exactly what is going to happen. They are scared silly that, of course, they are going to lose the next federal election. The member opposite will have a chance to join with Mr. Chretien and the tired old bunch to see whether he can help them form a government. Mr. Edwards : Let me just say, for very partisan reasons I am just thrilled that Ms.

Campbell won the election yesterday, Mr. Speaker. ACCESS Programs Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader of the Second Opposition): My final question is for the Premier. Just 10 days ago, the Minister of Education (Mrs. Vodrey) complained on the record that the federal government had unfairly changed the way that ACCESS grants were to flow in Manitoba, costing this province $1.1 million. That is a very recent unfair action by the federal government, in the words of his Minister of Education.

Can Manitobans now expect, in the new era of fairness and the new dawn of relations, that will be reversed and that type of punishment to this province in the past, as the minister has called it, will cease? * (1 400) Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier) : Mr. Speaker, the new Prime Minister of Canada is an individual who is committed to the inclusiveness of the political process and decision making within the federal government.

She is committed to the kind of consultative and broadly based discussion when she arrives at the policies and the decisions of her government that I think will be healthy for this country in future. I am sure, whether it is the Minister of Education or any other member of our government, they will be able to contact the new Prime Minister and to make their views known and to involve her in discussions that are of concern to Manitobans. I believe that in the long run, her election will, indeed, be an opportunity to build some bridges and gain a greater awareness of Manitoba issues and a

416 4 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 14 , 19 93 greater acknowledgement of things that are important to our region in Canada. Northern Freight Assistance Program Reinstatement Mr. Jerry Storie (FIIn Flon): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Acting Minister of Natural Resources or perhaps to the Deputy Premier and Minister of Northern Affairs. In South Indian Lake, approximately 100 fishermen have been idled as a result of the crisis in whitefish prices and the difficulties this part of the industry is experiencing. Hundreds of fisherman across the province, Mr. Speaker, have been idled. Mr.

Speaker, this current crisis affects the income of literally hundreds of families in northern Manitoba. It also affects the entitlement, the unemployment insurance entitlement, of fishermen because they are not out on the lakes.

My question to the Minister of Northern Affairs is: Can he explain to this Legislature and to the fishermen in northern Mani toba and the communities they represent why this government has refused to take this matter seriously and take this crisis seriously and meet with the fishermen to find a way to address the problem, which may include reinstating the entitlements under the northern fishermen's freight subsidy program? Hon. James Downey (Minister of Northern Affairs): Mr.

Speaker, let me assure the member that this government takes very seriously all the concerns of the people of the North and all of Manitoba as it relates to their job opportunities, their income and any difficulties they may have. The specifics of the question, Mr. Speaker, I will take on behalf of the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns). Fisheries Amendment Act Consultations Mr. Jerry Storie (FIIn Flon): Mr. Speaker, on a related question, this government has introduced legislation which will allow for the sale of fishing quota.

My question to the Minister of Northern Affairs and the Minister responsible for Native Affairs is whether this government can tell the Legislature and the people of northern Manitoba which communities, which fishermen's associations, which political organizations representing bands in northern Manitoba had been consulted prior to the introduction of this legislation. Hon. James Downey (Minister of Northern Affairs): Mr . Speaker, I will again take that question as notice for the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns). Mr. Stori e: This is the Deputy Premier and the Minister responsible for Northern Affairs.

Mr. Speaker, this government is about to sell out the birthright from northern fisherm en, northern communities, and he has not consulted. Withdrawal Mr. Jerry Storie (FIIn Flon): Mr. Speaker, my question is: Will the minister then request the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns) or the Premier (Mr. Filmon) to suspend this legislation, withdraw this legislation , until community fishermen's associations and fishermen have a chance to understand the repercussions of this legislation on their livelihood and their future? Hon. James Downey (Minister of Northern Affairs): Mr.

Speaker, let me, at the outset, say that the Minister of Natural Resources and this government have worked extremely well with the no rthern commun ities in relation ship to co-management agreements, in relationship to the proper use of resources, and I will take the question as notice as it relates to the specifics of which he has asked. Health Care System Kidney Dialysis Services Mr. Dave Chomlak (KIIdonan): Mr. Speaker, on June 1, when the member for Brandon raised in this House concerns that a major problem was occurring with dialysis and the waiting for dialysis, the minister dismissed it.

Now, reports in the media, Mr. Speaker, and a letter from the heads of the program at St. Boniface Hospital and Health Sciences Centre indicate there is a serious problem. Can the mi nister assure this House that alternatives are in place to reassure the families and the patients who are undergoing this very traumatic experience, Mr. Speaker, that they will not be dislocated and they will not suffer the repercussions of this government's actions?

June 14 , 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 416 5 Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I appreciate my honourable friend's question. I appreciate it because I do not think there have been too many areas of program within the hospital system in which we have dedicated more initiative in an attempt to provide more service than in the dialysis program.

Over the past two to three years, despite that fairly substantial increase in resources as well as locations in which dialysis is available closer to home for Manitobans, we from time to time, despite best efforts of the system, run into circumstances unpredictable in terms of new patients having to access that service. Mr.

Speaker, when that happens, we attempt as best we can to provide the service as close to home as possible, but there are circumstances from time to time that do require stable dialysis patients to visit another centre in the province that may not be at capacity, and those I think are fairly reasonable requests to make on a temporary basis. However, Sir, the concern about having to uproot their families, et cetera, and move out of province is not something that any Manitoban on dialysis should have concern about having to do, as may well be voiced in concern over the program. Mr. Chomlak: Mr.

Speaker, that is the same response the minister gave on June 1. I will ask the minister: Will he assure this House that proper arrangements will be put in place for these patients in Brandon and Winnipeg and other centres in Manitoba, so they do not have to go hundreds of ki lometres in order to receive treatment? Can he put those services in place to assure that will not happen? Mr. Orchard: Well, Mr.

Speaker, to help my honourable friend understand the sincerity of the commitment we have made to dialysis in the province, maybe I might share with my honourable friend a recent clipping from the Portage Daily Graphic. The headline is: New dialysis unit a blessing for kidney patients. This is an example of the expansion under this government that I have mentioned. The member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) I know would have in his files similar headlines from the Thompson newspaper which had-[interjection] Well, Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend is not exactly accurate with some of his comments from the seat.

The expansion of the program in Th ompson took substantia l commitment of operating budget, as does kidney dialysis wherever it is in the province. This Portage unit has reli eved pressure. Howe ver, Sir, we still have temporary circumstances where even despite increased capacity, we are near the capacity oi the system. In those cases, we attempt to use our resources, our expanding resources, to provide service in the least discomforting and dislocating circumstances possible, recognizing the stress that dialysis does represent to families. Mr. Chomlak: Mr. Spea ker, the minis ter's response is quite unfortunate.

My final supplementary to the minister: Will the minister assure this House that this problem will not keep recurring insofar as last year there were clawbacks and cuts to the hospitals? This year, hospitals are facing more than $20-million cuts in their budgets, and that will directly impact on programs like this. Will this minister give us assurances this year that this will not happen again, that there will not be longer waiting lists still because of the $20-million cuts in hospital budgets? Mr. Orchard: Mr.

Speaker, I know I must have not heard my honourable friend correctly when he said it was unfortunate in my answer when I referred to expanded capacity in Portage Ia Prairie to serve dialysis patients in the Central Plains region of Manitoba so they do not load the Winnipeg system or the Brandon system. I hope my honourable friend did not consider that to be unfortunate, because that is exactly, if my honourable friend thinks about it, what he is requesting this government to do to attempt to provide meaningful and improved access to dialysis. Mr.

Speaker, let me share with my honourable friend a couple of circumstances. This year, we have undertaken 34 transplantations for kidney dialysis patients. That is a higher rate than we have ever achieved in a similar period of time in any calendar year. That takes people off dialysis, but, still, despite that and despite the increased capacity that the Portage unit represents, serving six or eight people, I believe, we still have this

416 6 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA June 14 , 19 93 problem where the capacity of the system is being strained. Mr. Speaker, we are working within a number of initiatives, including a recent round table discussion on the whole issue of dialysis and nephrology, as far as improvement of management of the system and services, what we can do within the system to make it work more effectively for those who need care. * (1 410 ) Health Care System Kidney Dialysis Services Ms. Avis Gray (Crescentwood): Mr.

Speaker, as we heard today in the House, there are certainly grave concerns about the Manitoba dialysis treatment program. The Minister of Health has been involved with the health care reform for the past year. With the myriad of committees that have been working over that time, I would ask the minister if in fact an analysis of the dialysis treatment program was conducted over the past year with an anticipation of the increased number of dialysis patients that there would be.

Could he tell us, with that analysis, if it was done, did his department put some plans into place so we would not be in the situation that we are today, where in fact some patients may have to receive treatment away from their home community or out of province? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health) : Again, Mr. Speaker, I appreciate my honourable friend's question, because in direct response to this dialysis initiative-which I might say we have been very supportive of, even from opposition.

It was the encouragement of my colleague the Deputy Premier in opposition who finally got staffing budget so the dialysis machines that were purchased by the Kidney Foundation for Brandon General Hospital could serve residents in Brandon and the southwest corner. We have been working and urging resolution of dialysis closer to home for the last seven or eight years with some substantial success, Sir. The Thompson initiative is certainly helpful to those residents who had to dislocate from northern Manitoba to Winnipeg. The new unit at Portage Ia Prairie does that. Mr.

Speaker, in reference to my honourable friend's question about an analysis, yes, this year a round table was held on nephrology and on kidney dialysis to see how we can manage the resource within the system in a more appropriate fashion to serve those Manitobans needing this type of care in a better fashion. Ms. Gray: Mr.

Speaker, if the Minister of Health could tell this House if in fact there was discussion and there were some decisions made on how this problem can best be managed, could he then tell the House, what is the solution, what his department decided as far as management, because obviously there is a problem and there are people who will have to go elsewhere for their treatment? Mr. Orchard: Yes, my honourable friend makes the point that there is inconvenience in the system. That is correct.

Surely my honourable friend from the liberal Party would concede, that for the individual in Portage Ia Prairie who instead of driving to Winnipeg to receive dialysis, having it in Portage Ia Prairie closer to home, where the husband drops her off at work in the morning and picks her up at noon on the way home for lunch, is a much more convenient initiative for the individual. That is what we have been working on. In addition to that, Mr. Spe aker, we are expanding in the very near future, it is hoped.

You do not do this instantly or overnight, but we have very active plans to increase the number of patients who can be served in Brandon. In addition to that, Sir, we are investigating the possibility of increasing the capacity, for instance, at Morden, where the dialysis unit has been in operation for several years. Ms. Gray: With all of these suggestions the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) has proposed, can he tell this House and then tell Manitobans, when can we expect some of these suggestions he has mentioned put into place so that in fact we alleviate some of the concerns of dialysis patients? Mr.

Orchard: Well, Mr. Speaker, I would have appreciated that question on May 18 when the Portage Graphic indicated the expansion in Portage Ia Prairie. My honourable friend could have asked the question in somewhat laudatory terms of coming to grips with the problem and establishing a new centre with new capacity to serve people closer to

June 14 , 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 416 7 home. I know my honourable friend could have thanked the government on behalf of northern Manitobans, because I do not think the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) was quite laudatory about the expansion and the bringing of a brand-new program to northern Manitoba and Thompson. Mr.

Speaker, this issue will constantly be before us, Sir, because it is a program that has been growing and growing and growing despite best effort s of transplantation, despite increased budgets, significantly increased budgets over the last five years and significantly increased capacity to carry on the program. Clearwater Lake Nursery Government Support Mr. Oscar Lathlln (The Pas): My question is directed to the Minister of Northern Affairs. Mr.

Speaker, over the past three years, we have asked many questions co nc erning the government's plan for Clearwater Lake Nursery in The Pas, but, unfortunately, for the people in The Pas and area, we have received very few answers. Again, today, I would like to ask the Minister of Northern Affairs, given that the nursery in The Pas, which employed as many as 40 people most summers in an area where more jobs are needed-why did this minister and this government not support the nursery?

Where is this new growth the government was talking about last week here in the House, or is that new growth happening in Hadashville? Hon. James Downey (Minister of Northern Affairs): Mr. Speaker, the specifics fall under the Department of Natural Resources, but I would say though that when we took over office from the previous administration, which he found favour to join, there was so mething like 90 pe rcent unemployment in many of the northern and remote communities.

This government has taken action on the resolve of the Northern Flood difficulties, putting monies into those communit ie s, creating economic opportunities for the communities. As it relates to the Clearwater nursery, I will take the specific of that as notice for my colleague. Mr. Lathlln: My second question is again to the Minister of Northern Affairs. Since over 30 people work there most summers, want to ask the minist er whether the job implicatior.s for The Pas and area were taken into consideration when the decision was being made to quietly close the nursery without even warning the community? Mr.

Downey: Mr. Speaker, unlike the previous administration and their management of the Manfor cutting operation, the changeover to Repap and the replanting of trees which was going neglected under the previous administration, we have taken action for major replanting programs. In fact, in committee the other night, we identified a major replanting operation with the Moose Lake community. Again, as it relates to the Clearwater nursery, I will take that question as notice. Point of Order Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, on a point of order, Beauchesne's Citation 417 states very clearly that: "Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate." Mr. Speaker, I would suggest to you, if the minister does not know the answer to the question and is taking the question as notice, all he has to do is stand up and say, I take the question as notice. We do not need the debate and irrelevancy we just heard from the minister, and we ask that you call the minister to order. Mr.

Speaker: On the point of order raised, I had no idea the honourable minister was taking the question as notice, and I believe this question actually has two answers now. The honourable minister has attempted to answer it and according to the hon ourabl e opposition House leader, who said, should deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate, I believe the honourable opposition House leader is quite correct, that the honourable minister was attempting to provoke debate, was not dealing with the matter raised, and I would bring the honourable member to order. * * * Mr. Lathlln: Mr.

Speaker, would the minister explain to the House here just exactly how it is that it is more efficient to throw more than 30 people out of work in The Pas and ship seedlings from the

416 8 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA June 14 , 19 93 South to the North? Should trees cut in the North not come from seedlings that are grown in the North? Mr. Downey: Mr. Speaker, without takin g objection to the comments you made, the member has asked me to explain something, and I do not believe I have time in the answer. Let me say, Mr. Speaker, as it relates to seedling operation s, under this Minister of Natural Resources (Mr.

Enns) and this government, there have been major seedling contracts left with the band at Portage Ia Prairie which started up a nursery in a private way, giving job opportunities for aboriginal people in Portage Ia Prairie outside of government operation, employing the people whom he continues to speak on behalf of. Again, we are interested and extremely anxious to see everyone with a job opportunity in this province, wherever it is, and particularly as it relates to the aboriginal community. We have worked very hard in that area. * (1 420) Asslnlbolne River Diversion Water Conservation Plan Ms.

Marianne Cerllll (Radisson) : Mr. Speaker, this government claims to support and to have a commitment to sustainable development, yet it continues to support the unsustainable use of water. The Minister of Environment in Estimates admitted that not having a water conservation program before the diversion of the Assiniboine was a mistake and was not a sustainable effort. Can the minister tell the House why there was no program for water conservation in place before this government accepted the pro po sal for the Assiniboine diversion? Hon.

Glen Cumming s (Min ister of Environment): The member choo ses to misrepresent the situation that surrounds the-you do not like that word, Mr. Speaker? Let me withdraw that word-- Mr. Speaker: I would like to thank the honourable minister. Mr.

Cummings: -and indicate that I am appalled that the member would choose to reflect on this program in such a way that makes it look like there is not a lot of work being done in putting together the needed development plans that surround that river, so they know what they are doing in terms of the water retention and the demands along the river, because there are a lot of demands that are traditional uses of that river that are all part of the consideration going before the commission, Mr. Speaker.

I can tell you the member is doing a disservice to reflect on the work that is going on out there right now in the way she has. Ms. Cerllll: Mr. Speaker, the number of demands is the reason why we are asking for a basin-wide review. My question to the minister though was, why was there no conservation program in place to this area before the proposal was acce pted for the Assiniboine diversion? Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, I would be a little curious what the member is referring to when she says no conservation plans in the area. The sustainability of the uses on that river is of a primary concern.

If she is saying that we should go back and maybe do something about the diversion that protects this city from the ravages of spring floods, I hope that is not the kind of thing she has in mind. Mr. Speaker: Tim e for Oral Questions has expired. Committee Changes Mr. George Hlckes (Point Douglas): I move, seconded by the member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Municipal Affairs be amended as follows: Wolseley (Ms. Friesen) for Radisson (Ms. Cerilh); Elmwood (Mr. Maloway) for St. Johns (Ms. Wasylycia-Leis), for Tuesday, June 15, for 10 a.m.

I move, seconded by the member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Economic Development be amended as follows: Thompson (Mr. Ashton) for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen); Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin). for Tuesday, June 15, for 10 a.m. I move, seconded by the member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Economic Development be amended as follows: Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk) for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes); Selkirk (Mr. Dewar) for Thompson (Mr. Ashton), for Tuesday, June 15, for 7 p.m.

June 14 , 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 41 69 Motion agreed to. Mr. Nell Gaudr y (St. Bonif ace) : I mo ve, seconded by the memb er for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux), that the composition of the Standing Comm ittee on Economic Developmen t be amended as follows: Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) for St. Boniface (Mr. Gaudry). I move, seconded by the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux), that the composition on the Standing Committee on Municipal Affairs be amended as follows: Crescentwood (Ms. Gray) for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux). Motion agreed to. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon.

Darren Prazn lk (Deputy Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I would move , seconded by the honourable Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Ernst), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and that this House resolve itself into a Comm ittee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Motion presented. Mr. Praznlk: Pardon me, Mr. Speaker, but may I ask as well if you could canvass the House to see if there is a willingness to waive private mem bers' hour? Mr. Speaker: Is it the will of the House to waive private memb ers' hour? Some Honourable Members: No. Mr. Speaker: No. Leave is denied.

Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) in the Chair for the Department of Edu cation and Training; and the honourable member for Seine River (Mr s. Dacq uay) in the Chair for the Department of Health. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) EDUCATION AND TRAINING The Acting Deputy Chairperson (Jack Reimer) : Will the Committee of Supply please come to order.

This afternoon, this session of Commi ttee of Supply, meeting in Room 255, will resume consideration of the Estimates of Education and Training. When the comm ittee last sat it had considered item 4.(c)(1 ) on page 39 of the Estimates book. Shall the item pass? Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minis ter of Education and Training): Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, when we were last together the member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman) asked for some statistics on the Churchill Northern Studies Centre, the year, the number of full-time staff and the number of students at that time. I would like to table that. Ms.

Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I want to ask some general questions about what fuelled the government's decision to transfer to a loans-only policy. I wonder if the minister could tell us about the growth in demand for student assistance over the past- well, whatever is reasonable to provide, about the last three or four years, whatever is available from her staff here at the moment. What pe rcentage increase has there been in the appl ications for student aid? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Acting Deputy Chairperson, from 19 86 to 19 93, the increase of assistance to post- secondary students is $4,874,700 or 72 percent. The average yearly expenditure increase is 12 percent. That is for the Manitoba Student Financial Assistance. * (1 440) In the mem ber's broader question, the issue was, what was taken into consideration in the decision of changing from the bursary to the loans program? One of the things that we had to look at was the amount of mo ney that was av ailable.

By continuing to put more and more funds into it and to provide a bursary, there still was only so much money available to provide assista nce. By moving to the loans program, we now do not have to look at in any way limiting the number of students who would receive Manitoba Financial Assistance or limiting the amount to enable more students. In this way, stude nts who have the required need and who meet the criteria would be able to access the money that they need. Ms. Friesen: I appreciate that information, but it was not, of course, the question I asked.

The ques tion I asked was, wh at was the percentage increase in applications over the last

417 0 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 14 , 19 93 few years? We are talking about an issue of need. The issue of increase in amount of money spent would perhaps also reflect the increase in fees, particularly at universities over that period of years, and also, of course, the increase in costs and cost of living, of rent, bus fares, bus passes, that kind of thing, on which some of these elem ents of bursaries were based. So what I was looking at was the question of the incr eased pe rce ntage of people who were applying. Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Acting Deputy Chair, certainly I did take into consideration all of the issues that the member asked about and had hoped that she had made reference to. We certainly are aware of all of those issues and certainly consider them. With that in consideration, that is why I provided for the member the increase in the amount of money, the percentage increase in the amount of money that had been given into that particular program, and I though t that would help the memb er if she understood the support that was being provided to post-secondary students.

In terms of the question she has just asked, there has been an increase on the Canada Student Loan year over year of approxima tely 3 percent per year over the past four years. From '91 -92 to '92-93 in the applications for the bursary loan rebate, there was an increase of 15 percent. Now, the increase may be due to students applying earlier for this assistance than in previous years, and we will get the percentage of actual bu rsary loan rebates granted from that increase in application. We are just working on the figures. Ms. Friesen: Does the minister want to wait until those are ready?

I will ask another question perhaps then while we are waiting. There are a number of programs across the cou ntry which , under bu rsari es and stu dent financial assistance, make special cases and have special programs for students with disabilities. I wonder if the minister, under this program or any other program , has considered special bursary relief, loan rebates or some kind of program which would take account of the extra costs that disabled students face and also their greater difficulty in finding employment after graduation. Mrs.

Vodrey: I just would like to answer the memb er's previous question first. I had told her that the number of appl ications for Manitoba bur saries and Manitoba student financial assistance had gone up about 15 percent. In terms of the actual awards year over year, I can tell her for the last four years: '89-90, the actual awards went up 9.5 percent; '90-91 , they went up 15 .2 percent; '91- 92 to '92-93, they went up 18 .7 percent. I beg your pardon, that would be from three years; four years, year over year.

The total, over those years, then, the increase is 49.7 percent. * (1 450) Then the memb er has asked about any assis tance that Manitoba mi gh t provide for stude nts with disabilities. We do provide a category of study assistance for students with disabilities. This assistance is available to full· and part-ti me post-secondary students and is designed to provide support for the extra services that disabled students require which are not covered by other support programs.

Appr oxi mately 23 studen ts per year have quali fied, and the amo unt varies becaus e sometimes students have asked for support for things such as a hearing aid, and in other cases, they have required assistance for the purchase of special typewriters or other equipment to help them in their studies. Ms. Friesen: Is there any special consideration for disabled students after graduation, taking into account the greater difficulty they have in finding jobs? Mrs.

Vodrey: In terms of the Canada Student Lo an , ther e has not been any special considerations made, and in the area of Manitoba Student Financial Assistance, in our new program , we have not made any special assistance at the moment, although I will remind the member, as we discussed the last time, we were sitting on this issue that Manitoba does provide the six-m onth period in which we continue to pay the interest,

whereas Canada has said that it will be moving to remove that period. Ms. Friesen : I recog nize the distinction the minister is making, but I am also looking at programs in Ontario and British Colu mbia, for exam ple, where the em ployment ma rket for disabled people is recognized in the provincial student programs, and there is interest relief and loan relief in some cases for the disabled or handicapped category of students.

June 14 , 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 4171 I wanted to know, did the minister consider this in her new loan program? From the sound of it, it is as though it has been rejected, but I wonder if it was considered and rejected and for what reasons. Mrs. Vodrey: Well, at this time, in looking at the first year of operation coming up for our Manitoba Student Financial Assistance and our change into the loans-only program, we looked at the amount of money that we have available to service the loans, and so we will be looking in the first year at the costs to Manitobans in terms of the new program .

What the member has said is a point to, I would say, be considered again as we look at the situation that we find ourselves in, in the following year and following the first year of the program . Ms. Friesen: Is the minister suggesting then that there will be a formal review, an informal review, any reports tabled, and what is anticipated at the end of this first year of the program ? Mrs. Vodrey: We will be looking at an internal review of our program because we would like to, first of all, look very carefully at it in its first year of operation.

We also will be looking for any changes which might occur under the Canada Student Loans Program . We have been waiting for some time for any changes to be announced and particularly changes in the area of benefits. When we receive any information on what Canada has determined that they will do, obviously we will want to, in addition, look at our program because our program is the second stage following the Canada Student Loans.

So, for two reasons we would be looking internally: one, completing the first year as we will go into the first year of operation, and then, two, if Canada should make any changes to the Canada Student Loans Program . Ms. Friesen: Those changes to the Canada Student Loans Pr ogram are crea ti ng, and deservedly so, a great deal of anxiety among students and educational institutions. We have talked about this before. The Canada Student Loan, essentially, their regulations are the gate­ keepers of this program. They are setting the guidelines by which people in Manitoba can apply for any kind of assista nce.

There are two rumours that are particularly disturbing. One is the move to 80 percent course enrollmen t bef ore any appl ications can be accepted. Manitoba, as the minister knows, has the highest rate of any province of students in em ployme:1t, what students sometimes think is part-time employment but which seems to me to be far too frequently full-time employment, and they try and fit their courses and their programs around that. I think Manitoba should have very deep concerns about this. So that is one area that I draw the mi niste r's atte ntion to .

The second is the long-standing rum our that this federal government, that this Conservative Party, is going to turn over the entire student loan program to the banks, or to a bank. And a third rumour, none of these are necessarily compatible , but certainly a third rumour is that they are going to turn it over to the provinces with no further funding. So each of those is ver y di stu rbing for edu cational institutions. Some of them have particular import for students in Manitoba, and I wonder if the minister can tell us what the deadlines are by which we might know when these decisions are going to be made.

Are we looking at changes that are going to be made before the next academic year? Are we looking at changes by the end of the next fiscal year? Has the minister got any sense of that kind of timetable? Mrs. Vodrey: As the member has said, these are rumours, and therefore I cannot provide her with any more information on the rumour. In the area of time line, Canada has not provided a time frame for us.

As I said when we discussed this last, I have met with the new federal minister responsible and had asked the federal minister if there was any information to come forward, and she said that things were under consideration, but that no time frame has been given. Mr. Jerry Storie (FIIn Flon): I have a number of questions that I want to raise with the minister dealing with this

section and particularly relating it to the students in the BUNTEP program . I had a chance last week to meet with a group of some 27 students that are in the BUNTEP program in Lynn Lake, and I can tell the minister that one of their ongoing concerns was the continuing changes in support and assistance available to BUNTEP students general ly and a concern about the commitment to the BUNTEP program in particular.

417 2 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 14 , 19 93 My first quest ion, I guess, relates to the allowance that the BUNTEP program offers the seven students in Lynn Lake that are being supported by the BUNTEP program . It is my understanding that originally the province was providing significant support and that as of this year the allowances were reduced some $3,000.

I am wondering whether the minister can share with us any sort of analysis that was done that would have justified reducing the support to this particular group of students. * (1 500) I do not know whether the minister has had a chance to visit with some of the people who are involved in the BUNTEP program. I do not know if she has had a chance, for example, to visit Lynn Lake and to meet with the students that are enrolled in the new BUNTEP program there, but I can assure her that there is certainly an interesting mix of students.

I had a chance to have those students share their particular circumstances with me and for the many single parents, for the many individuals for whom this is a last chance, the people who have, because of the circumstances in Lynn Lake, basically sold everything they have had and attempted to make this th eir last opportunity for an education. I certainly came away with an understanding of why they are concerned. I guess my first question is, what justified the reduction of that $3,000 in students' allowance? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Acting Deputy Chairperson, as the member said, he was out last week and we passed this line last week. This line of questioning falls under the ACCESS program ming. We did have som e thorough discussion , which is all recorded in Hansard, around the ACC ESS grants and around the amount of funding available and about how much each student is eligible for. Mr. Storie: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, we are under the Student Financial Assistance, and I understand that the people who have had this reduction- well, the minister is shaking her head.

I hope that some day she will genuinely develop a concern for the students who are involved in programs like BUNTEP. It is easy to say, well, I am sorry, we passed that last week. That is not good enough for the people in Lynn Lake. Point of Order Mrs. Vodrey: On a point of order, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson. The member was travelling in Manitoba last week and missed the opportunity to ask the questions. The questions were asked last week. The que stions were covered. The answers are recorded in Hansard. I think those answers certainly record a genuine concern on behalf of students.

In fact, we spent quite a few hours discussing this particular area. The Acting Deput y Chairperson (Mr. Reimer): The minister did not have a point of order, but I would ask the com mittee if there is a willingness to revert to that line. Mr. Storie: On a point of order, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson. This

section is Student Financial Assistance, and if the minister does not understand what this branch does, perhaps I will read it into the record for her. It says- The Acting Deputy Chairperson (Mr. Reimer): I would point out that the memb er for Rin Flon did not have a point of order. *** The Acting Deputy Chairperson (Mr. Reimer): I woul d ask the comm ittee whether there is a willingness to revert to item 4.(

b) Access Programs. Mr. Storie: With all due respect, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I want to read to you and to the comm ittee the objectives of this branch. Student Financial Assistance Objective s: To increase, through the administration of the Canada Student Loans Program and the Manitoba Student Financial Assistance Program, post-secondary educational opportunities for Manitobans.

If the minister would have been kind enough to wait until the second part of the question, she would have understood that I am relating this cutback in su pport to the BUNTEP students through the BUN TEP progr am, to the Ma nitoba Stu dent Financial Assistance Program .

I am asking the minister to justify transferring what was support to individual students back into a loan that the gove rnment may or may not make individual -{interjection] lf I may continue to ask the question that is directly related to this particular item in the Estimates process, and that is the Manitoba Student Financial Assistance Program . My question was, how, what evidence, what process did the minister use to justify elim inating a

June 14 , 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 417 3 $3,090 allowance provided through the BUNTEP program and turn it into a loan program that may or may not fit the needs of these students? Mrs. Vodrey: The questions were answered last week when the line was covered. There was a full explanation. The member might like to refer to Hansard. Point of Order Hon. Jam es Downey (Minister of Northern Affairs): I think it is obvious that the minister has answered the question a week ago, dealt with this line in the Estimates book, and we should proceed to carry on with the Estimates that are before us.

The minister has every right to not respond at this time. It is a matter of having dealt with an issue and not reverting back. We will never get through the Estimates of any of the government departments if we keep going back and forth and not proceeding in an orderly manner. The Acting Deputy Chairperson (Mr. Reimer) : The honourable minister did not have a point of order. Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minis ter of Government Services): On a point of order, I was also here when it was being discussed.

We go to great expense in Hansard to record everything that happened previously, and I suggest to the member that he go back and read those particular questions that were in during that discussion. The Acting Deputy Chairperson (Mr. Reimer) : The Minister of Government Services did not have a point of order. * * * Mr. Storie: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, with all due respect, this is the Student Financial Assistance line in the Estimates. It deals with the Manitoba Student Financial Assistance Program.

My question was, why did the minister cut back on the student assistance available through the BUNTEP program by some $3,000, and why are students now being told to apply through the Student Financial Assistance Program when that ma y not in fact suit their needs? Th is is an additional burden. It is a reduction in support and what was the basis? What informational basis was used for that reduction in support? Mrs. Vodrey: Again, I can say to the member that all of the issues relating to BUNTEP were covered under the appropriation before this. They were covered under the ACC ESS program .

The member asks about any reductions which had taken place to some students in that area. I discussed the numbers fully. I discussed the reasoning fully in the last week when we covered that particular line. Mr. Stori e: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I can tell the minister that the students in Lynn Lake would like some explanation as to why they, in particular, this unit, which is the latest BUNTEP program, were mistreated. When the BUNTEP program first started, the concept was to provide support for those people who would not otherwise have an opportunity for an education.

This particular branch, the Student Financial Assistance branch, is supposed to be that branch which provides that alternative for these people. The fact of the matter is this government has slashed and hacked at every educational program in the province. They took $1 6 million out of the public school system. They have cut the Manitoba Student Bursary. They have cut the Student Social Allowances Program. They have cut ACCESS programs by 11. 2 percent.

They have cut support to students in the BUNTEP program and similar programs, and you will understand ifthe students in Lynn Lake are a li ttle uneasy about the government's ultima te plans when it comes to these programs. These were exceptional programs. They have been around for 20 years. The Student Social Allowances Program is perhaps the best example. The government did absolutely no homework on the efficacy of that program, and it looks like there are going to do the same thing to the BUNTEP students. • (1 51 0) All BUNTEP students after 19 91 have had their allowances cut.

The government originally told BUNTEP students that existing students in the program would have the ir benefits and their allowances grandfathered. The government has now reneged on that promise. So you will understand why the current students, the students that began only a few months ago in Leaf Rapids, or Lynn Lake, I should say, are

417 4 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 14 , 19 93 concerned about the government's commitment to the program. I am concerned because as it stands now, the BUNTEP program is only supporting seven of the 27 students in the program. If the students do not come with other resources, with other financial resources, support from other areas, there are going to be fewer and fewer people who can take advantage of the opportunity that these programs present.

My ques tion was related to the government's decision to cut $3,000 of support and apparently ask students to apply under Student Financial Assis tance Program . My question is, is the mi nister guar anteeing that these loans will be available? Is the minister going to ensure that after these loans have been made available they can be supported by the students them selves? Are there going to be no special considerations for the circumstances that these people find themselves in? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Acting Deputy Chair, again, the answers that the memb er is seeking are all fully answered in Hansard from last week, but let me also tell him, I do not know whom he spoke to at Lynn Lake. There were no students at Lynn Lake who were under the grandfather clause. Mr. Storie: I did not say they were students. I realize that the students in Lynn Lake have all been cut. They were not grandfathered at all . It is only after 19 91 that students were grandfathered-a one- year period. Mrs. Vodrey: I do not think the member is really di spl ayi ng any u ndersta nding of wh at ha s occurred.

There were some stude nts who were grandfathered. Of 71 2 students, it was a small number of students who were grandfathered. He somehow leaves on the record an impression that there were more, that it was all students. In fact, there was an unequal number, but I would refer him to Ha nsard . The issue was full y discussed in Hansard last week. Mr. Stori e: Mr.

Acting Deputy Chairperson, I do not have to refer to Hansard to know that the minister did not provide one shred of objective evidence to suggest that this program was going to be enhanced by the government's cutting student allowances-- not one shred of evidence. If the minister can now put on record what objective evidence she has to suggest that this kind of cutting and slashing is going to benefit BUNTEP students, then I would be pleased to hear it. Mrs. Vodrey: The questions were fully answered last week. Mr.

Storie: According to the people who asked the question, this minister has not answered fully a question since the Estimates began. Cer ta inly, the people taking the BUNTEP program in Lynn Lake will be pleased to know that the minister has refused to answer any questions relative to their concerns. Point of Order Mrs. Vodrey: On a point of order, Mr. Acting Deputy Chair, there has not been a refusal. I have referred the memb er to exactly where he can find the answer. The question was fully answered last week. *** Mr.

Storie: Unfortunately, the students in the Lynn Lake BUNTEP centre only met with me last week, and their concerns are obviously different from most other BUNTEP students, given the fact that this BUNTEP centre is the latest and the only one that has opened since 19 91 . The students want to know the justification for elim inating $3,000 in support; that is what they want to know. Mrs. Vodrey: I have checked with the staff. Again, to remind the member, he has spoken again about Lynn Lake; he is talking about students who are experiencing red uc tion in the ACC ESS program.

I am told that those students did not receive a reduction. They were not students there who were grandfathered. Mr. Storie: The fact of the matter is that they received a lower level of allowance. They were not grandfathered, because grandfathering occurred after 19 91 . This is the only BUNTEP centre that has begun since 199 1. The students in Lynn Lake under sta nd that perfe ct ly . They want an explanation for why the lower level of assistance. Well, perhaps the minister would care to repeat it for the benefit of the students in Lynn Lake who asked this specific question. Mr.

Acting Deputy Chairp erson, I guess perhaps we need to discuss the principles that underline the

June 14 , 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 417 5 assistance that the province provides. It seems to me that, since this government and particularly this minister assumed responsibility, what we have seen is a continuing reduction in the means for students to get financial assistance to pursue their education. I am wondering whether the government, the minster has considered any alternative ways of financing programs, such as BUNTEP, than the few that are cu rrently proposed, which is the Canada Student Loans and the Manitoban Student Financial Assistance Program . Mrs.

Vodrey: As I discu ssed last week, the funding available to students through the ACCESS programs and the total amount of money which would be available under a series of categories provides a student with up to $1 0,600 on an ave rage . It can be mor e than that, in fact. Following that, students may then apply for the Cana da Student Loan, which, ag ain, is supplementary; and then following that, students may also apply for Student Financial Assistance from Manit oba ; and then the mo st needies t students may also apply for the bu rsary program from Manitoba.

So there are three additional levels of support that are available to students. The memb er spe aks about the BUNTEP program in

part icular, a program which leads students to a professional degree, a professional end to their course of study, and that is similar in the supplementary supports to all other students in Manitoba. What the BUNTEP students receive in addition is the support of the ACCESS, and they receive that right up front, and the amount, as I have said, can be as much on average as $1 0,600. That is more than other students would receive. Other students, all students in Manitoba do not have the ability to access those ACCESS funds.

Then those students, following that, have the opportunity as all other students in Manitoba to access the other three levels. Mr. Storie: Perhaps the minister can explain why, when I contacted the BUNTEP office, I was told that a single-parent student with two children would be entitled to approximately $284 per month. Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Acting Deputy Chair, again, we discussed the details of the amount of money available under different situations when we discussed the ACCESS programs last week. The line has been passed. Mr.

Sto rie: I understand the gove rnment's, including the former Minister of Education's, sense of urgency in getting this issue behind them. They have been undermining the oppor tu nities of students in the province for five years, and this minister, unfortunately, is left holding the bag. Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, the bottom line is fewer and fewer students are seeing support from the provincial government. The BUNTEP program that I established in Cranberry Portage when I was Minister of Education worked very well. I cannot take responsibility for the Lynn Lake Centre.

The fact is, of course, the government of the day watched the community collapse before they saw fit to establish a BUNTEP center in Lynn Lake. I can tell the Minister of Rural Development (Mr. Derkach) that while we were in government and I was minister, the commu nity of Lynn Lake was approxima tely 2,000 people. It is approximately 450 today. * (1 520} The minister rushes in to defend the indefensible. The fact is there are fewer and fewer students who are getting the kind of support they feel they need. This is not coming from me.

This is coming from the students in Lynn Lake themselves, who are concerned about the longevity of this program and the government's commitment to it and concerned about their own abili ty to continue to atte nd. Whether the minister wants to deal with the issue today or not, or whether she wants to refer me to some discussion she has had previously, the fact of the matter remains that a single-p arent student collects $284 from the program as sponsored by BUNTEP. Mr.

Acting Deputy Chairperson, the concern that was expressed to me was that a number of these people are going to be forced back onto welfare, going to be forced out of the progr am . The question is, what does the minister propose to ensure that these students succeed as they want to do, as their commu nities want them to do? Mrs.

Vodrey: Again, I can tell the member in Hansard of Tuesday, June 8, 1 :30, Hansard No. 78, on page No. 3973, we began the discussion of the ACC ESS program s, so the member might be interested in reviewing the discussion that took place and following that, I would just remind the member that in terms of an allowance-- perhaps his me mory of what is provided for the ACC ESS

417 6 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 14 , 19 93 programs has slipped somewhat, because he may not have remem bered all of the areas which are covered in the ACCE SS programs, including tuition, including rent subsidy. None of those things have changed in the grants tha t are give n.

All that has changed is the gra ndfat her ed amoun t, and then following that-and I have given him the number as I gave to the mem bers who were present in the Estimates of the Department of Education fast week, the amount of funds available, and I have explained also that students up to- there are 71 2 students currently enrolled in the ACCESS program, so students on average are able to access totally in the amount of $10, 600. That includes things such as tuition.

Following that, as all other students, they are also able to access other funding, and I would remind the memb er, too, there are also students studying in a professional program . Mr. Storie: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, when the pro gr am beg an, the concep t was that individuals with limited means, with limited access to post-secondary edu cation oppo rtu nities, disadvantaged by distance from educational centres, by remoteness, by culture, by economic circumstance would be given an opportunity. When this government took over, the vast majority of BUNTEP students were sponsored by the BUNTEP progr am .

They did not req uir e additional loan support, first of all, because they could not foresee the possibility of that type of assistance being useful. Right now, in the Lynn Lake BUNTEP Centre, there are 27 students. The province is now supporting seven.

The question is, is this government heading towards a situation where it has no responsibility, where dozens and dozens of students who would have liked to have had the opportunity are going to be denied, while others who are more fortunate, who are being sponsored by bands and other agencies, take over¢ What is going to happen to those people from small commu nities with limited resources who need the exceptional support that these programs have offered? Is the government simply washing its hands of 20 students in the Lynn Lake case?

Perhaps dozens of other students, who would like to apply but for whom assistance is not going to be available, what should they do? Forty at Winnipeg Ed, I am told. Mrs. Vodrey: The line has been passed. Mr. Storie: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, the minister keeps repeating the line has been passed. Can we answer the question for the people in Lynn Lake? What are they expected to do if they cannot continue because of the limited support they are getting from the province, and from the cutbacks in the program? Mrs.

Vodrey: As I have said, the students who are in post-secondary programs in Manitoba are able to apply for supplem entary su pport, first to the Canada Student Loans program , following the Canada Student Loans to the Manitoba Student Financial Assistanc e Program and then the Manitoba bursaries, as all post-secondary students in Manitoba are entitled to apply. Mr. Storie: The minister has referenced the fact that some 600 Ma nitoba students, it i� estimated, will receive Manitoba bursaries this year.

I am wondering whe ther the mi nister can indicate whether the BUNTEP ACCESS students are given priority in terms of that very limited number of supports. Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Acting Deputy Chair, under the Student Financial Assistance line, as we discussed last week also, we certainly provide a priority in terms of the processing, but those students do fall under the sam e criterion as other students in Manitoba, and where there is need, we look to support the need. Mr.

Storie: I guess the question is, where is the recognition that this program was designe d sp ecifically to su pport people in excep tional circumstances, that it is not simply a question of their immediate financial need, that in fact, it is a question of their life experiences, their concern over amassing debt for educational opportunities. This program has never been treated, as the minister seems to want to suggest is now the case, like every other program . This has been an exceptional program, and the needs of the students are except ional.

I am wondering whe ther the minister can indicate whether she met with students in the BUNTEP and the ACCESS programs prior to deciding that these changes were going to be practical in terms of those programs. Mrs. Vodrey: As the member looks back on the line that has been passed, he will see that the governme nt's com mitment is $9.9 mill ion. We have talked also, when we looked at that line, as he

June 14 , 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 41 77 will see when he refers to three days of Hansards for that line, that we have also had an intake of new students as well . He would have to refer to Hansard to the number of students covered in that particular intake. However, we did talk about the importance of that program, the government's commitment to that program. What I am saying to the member is that it was fully discussed over a period of three days, and. he is certainly able to look at that. I think he will find all the answers that he is looking for.

Following that, when we look at this particular line under Stu dent Financial Assis tance , the additional support which students might require is available to those students under this particular line we are talking about now, Manitoba Student Financial Assistance. Mr. Storie: My question was whether the minister would consider students under this program as a priority.

My suggestion is that the minister do so, that for these students in particular, because of their backgr ound, in many cases th eir dis­ advantaged, in one way or another, background, they be given special consideration in terms of the relatively limited number of people who are going to get the Manitoba bursary anyway. It seems that the government is losing sight of the goal of the program in its desire to create equity. The minister talks about, well, they will be treated like everyone else; that was never the point of the program.

They, in many cases, come from isolated comm unities, require additional support, and that is what the program was providing. The minister acknowledged that there are only seven people who are supported by the BUNTEP program. We are missing a generation of people who want this additional training, who would be willing and able to come, had the program criteria not been changed continually by the government. * (1 530) Mrs. Vodrey: Our government's commitment to these students has been recorded in the past week under the discussions that we have had . [interjection] I hear the member for Wolseley (Ms.

Friesen) saying that students will love that. If the memb er does care to look up the information which has been fully discussed and passed by the memb ers of his caucus, then I think he will see the information which he is looking for. Mr. Stori e: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I know that the minister has put a significant number of words on the record, but just so the record is clear, let us say the government's record when it comes to edu cation is fairly clear and not that commendable, I think. The fact is that government has cut Student Financial Assistance by 7.3 percent in this budget.

They have cut the Manitoba student bursary program entirely. They have cut the Student Social Allowances Program. They have cut ACCESS by 11 .2 percent. They have cut funding to school divisions by 16 percent. They have introduced a bill that limits the authority of school divisions. They have increased funding to private schools, of which there are none in northern Manitoba. That is the record. Mrs. Vodrey: For the member for Flin Ron, I hope he is able to hear this particular answer on behalf of ACC ESS students.

I woul d rem ind him that ACCESS students' maxi mum amount of funding under the ACCESS program is $1 6,000; Canada Student Loan, $5,040; Manit oba Government Loan, $5,040; Manitoba Government Bu rsary, $5,040. The maximum amount of funding where students have need is $31 , 12 0. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Acting Deput y Chairperson, could the mi nister tell us how many people received the maximum funding? Mrs. Vodrey: Numb ers of students receiving the maximum Canada Student Loan, 9,951 . Students receiving the maximum -and this is last year's figures- Manitoba Government Bursaries, 1 ,065.

The number receiving the maximum government grant and loan rebate, the third level of assistance last year, was 204 stude nts. In terms of the numb er of stude nts rece iving the ma ximum ACCESS, we do not have that number available. Ms. Friesen: The issue I was after was, of course, when the minister was saying that ACCES S students will be eligible for over $30,000 under all of these programs, so the question I was asking was how many ACC ESS students have received that. Obviously, we cannot answer that because it is a new program.

So what is the estimate of how many students will be receiving that $30,000 that she spoke of? It would seem to me that the number she has given-certai nly it would be less than 204. An Honourable Member: You cannot answer that question, you do not know until they apply.

417 8 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 14 , 19 93 Ms. Friesen: Well, then you cannot boast about it, can you? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Acting Deputy Chair, I am not able to tell the member, of those 204 students who received the maximum at the third level, how many of those students are ACCESS students, again, becaus e we have passed that line with that information. Ms.

Friesen: So the estimate then of $30,000 bein g avai lable for ACCESS students is an estimate of potential, and the minister does not have an es tima te d numb er of the ACC ESS students, or former ACCESS students, who will be applying for that and who will be eligible. Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Acting Deputy Chair, again, that number is a possible number. A student may have a need so great that they may access over $31 ,000 in a single year. Howe ver, ther e are ma ny variations to their particular circumstances.

As I have said, and I did put this on the record last week, wher e a student in the ACCE SS program has extremely high need, then from the ACC ESS program alone, they may be able to acquire approximat ely $1 6,000. That $1 6,000 would then be looked at as students apply for the Canada Student Loan and also carry on applying through the other levels, their need in each case. I believe that is what we have been speaking about today, is the way any student might receive money from any of the supplem entary programs would be based on the needs assessment and the needs evaluation according to a criterion.

The criterion is what establishes, again, the sense of predictability for students. Ms. Friesen : But I su ppose we can at least estab lish that there will be fewer than 600 students across Manitoba who will be eligibl e for the $30,000, since the minister has a cap of 600 students on that third level. Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Acting Deputy Chair, the 600 students was an estimate of students who may receive the bursary. The member has been asking how many might be ACCESS students, and we have to wait till we see what the applications are and what the level of need is.

So the projection was, though, total in the Student Financial area, that there would probably be in the area of 600 students who would qualify for the third level. * (1 540) Ms. Friesen: We were speaking earlier of the policies which exist in other provinces for particular consideration for loan repayment relief for students with disabilities, and I understand what the minister said, at the moment she has no policy in this area on this, that is, in the transition to loans; and that she will review it at the end of the year.

Other provinces also have similar loan rebate relief for aboriginal students, and, in the case of Ontario as well, for other types of student s , including Franco-Ontarian students. Has the minister given any consideration to targeting other particular disadvantaged groups in Manitoba in terms of payment relief and rebates? Mrs. Vodrey: As I said to the member, this is the first year of the program coming up. We will have a look at the costs of the program coming up.

We will have a look at the students accessing the program coming up, and I have said that we will have a look at issues as they pertain to the program. I have told her that we will be looking at that in the coming year. Ms. Friesen: Well, I find this rather surprising. Th is is not reinventing the wheel. These are programs which exist in other provinces that do have loan programs, and here we are in the middle of June. What is it? Well, six to eight weeks away from the be ginning of registr ati on for post-secondary institutions. The minister has not yet met with credit unions.

She does not yet have an agreement with the Royal Bank. She does not have an agreement with the bankers in general. She has not looked at the question of students with disabilities. She has not looked at the question of priori�y for aboriginal or other students who have greater difficulty in finding employment. It seems to me that this is a program in process, and that it has been hurriedly arranged as a result of program-what should I say-as a result of the government's determination to slash its budget rather than upon the needs of Manitoba students. Mrs. Vodrey: Mr .

Acti ng Deput y Chair, the memb er is wrong. She cites a whole list of issues. They were not correct. I have told her about the interim agreement with the Royal Bank, and so she puts a whole list of issues forward. I would remind her that when considerations were made-and I have told her today of the increasing amount of money that this government has put into Student Financial Assistance over the past three to four years. It has increased at a very large rate, most

June 14 , 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 417 9 recently at 18 percent, and so we wanted to make sure that students in Manitoba could continue to access the funds that they required in order to complete their post-secondary education. Had we made no changes to the loan program , we would have had to look at, perhaps, with the amount of money avai lable, havi ng students receive funds on a first-come, first-served basis. That would have meant some students would receive no funding.

Or we would have had to look at limiting very strongly how much money could be made available as the second and thir d supplem entary step. The member herself might have rather made that particular choice. We made a choic e on beh alf of Manitoba students to make sure that they could continue to access the amount of money that they were able to in past years and also deal with the current fiscal situation of the province. We did not want to leave students out of the process, as the other two options would have. Perhaps those would have been the options the member would have chosen. Ms. Friesen: Mr.

Acting Deputy Chairperson, those options that the minister is speaking about, I rem em ber that she did use those options in Qu estion Pe riod in response to one of my questions. This struck me as very odd, a very unusual response to a question since it was not close to anything I had ever sugges ted or discussed. I puzzled about that for some time. It seems to me that since those discussions are not coming from the opposition, they must be com ing from the minister's own caucus, the minister's own colleagues.

I can understand why the minister believes that her solution is perhaps the most pall iative of all the ones that she is suggesting, but she should not try and put those suggestions into the mouth of the opposition. Could I continue, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, with some ques tions about the alternatives, because what we have here is a program which has been planned very quickly and put into place very hastily that the options that are there in other programs across the country either have not been considered or have been considered and rejected for various reasons.

If they have, then I am always interested in hearing the minister put the reasons on the record. One of the ones that I found interesting in my look at programs across the country is the Ontario program for interest relief for students who earn in the region of $20,000 and a gradua ted relief program for those who are in between $20,000 and $35,000 on graduation.

That seems to me to be looking certainly at the realities of the job market for young people, including those who have graduated from post-secondary institutions and for whom certainly the job market is better than those who have only a high school graduation, but certainly it is by no means guaranteed even within the first five to eight years, I would say now, of graduation that they can find jobs that use the information or use the education that they have received. I suppose the minister watched, like others did, the video sh own by Patrick Boye r at the Conservative Convention. I unfortunately missed it.

I only read about it in the Globe, I think it was, this morning, and I believe it began with a student selling flowers on the streets of Toronto, a student who had a $40,000 debt. I think if there was perhaps one moment that would speak to the students whom I have talked to and the people in post-secondary education I have talked to, that moment of the student essentially making little more, if that, of minimum wage and trying to pay off a $40,000 debt is a very striking image and an interesting one for Mr. Boyer to choose. A number of questions I think come out of that.

One is, I want to ask the minister, did she consider in her planning of this program, which to me gives every appea rance of a very hastily planned program, did she consider a similar program to Ontario for rebate for students who are not at the average industrial wage, shall we say, in their imm ediate years after graduation?

My second question is, what does the minister consider to be an appropriate debt load when her counsellors are speaking to these students, when we are looking at the transition from high school to university, and the minister's policies are being put into effect by counsellors in the high schools, what kind of guidance are we suggesting to students that they look at for their debt load? Is $40,000 something that the minister would consider appropriate, say at the end of a four-year program? What would be considered appropriate?

Is it advisable for students, in the minister's mind, to take one year out of school to repay the debt and then go back again? What kind of life path is the minister essentially advising for those students who are increasingly finding themselves with $30,000,

418 0 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 14 , 19 93 $40,000 debts, and in the case of some students I know who locked in their debts, through no fault of their own, at interest rates of 12 percent and more and who are now in very low-paying jobs and are essentially finding themselves on a treadmill of only being able to pay off the interest?

I am wondering what kind of advice the minister has, since she has made the decision to move to a largely loans-only program and is essentially suggesting to Manitoba students that if you do not have a family who can pay for you, if you cannot find a summer job, if you cannot find work during the school year, and now you are only going to be allowed to take 20 percent of your time in that, you essentially are going to run up debts. What debt load do we ex pect Manitoba stu de nts to accumu late? What is reasonable to expect in this economy? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Acting Deputy Chairperson, let me start by the range of ideas which have been expr essed by a number of people in terms of options. The member does not seem to think any of the options wou ld have been sugg ested by her particular party. It seems to stand to reason that her party would blissfully carry on spending money and continue to increase the debt for Manitobans, so those people who wish to study would virtually have nothing when they came out. Certainly our children would have nothing because the deb t and the deficit would be so large, they would not have any hope.

It is not hard to come up with an endless numb er of ways to spend money, which the member would like to do, not hard at all. However, what this government has had to do is make a number of decisions which were difficult decisions to make but which we believe would still provide students with the funds that were required, so those students could attend post-secondary programs. They vary in length, the programs that students take, as the mem ber may know.

She refers primarily to university programs, and I have attempted over the course of the Estimates to remind her that students also take a number of oth er kinds of pro grams, as wel l, which are considered post-secondary programs. * (1 550) The memb er has asked about a video which was shown by one of the candidates for the Progressive Conservative leadership campaign. It is interesting that she was interested in that particular video and interested in the leadership of our party, as well. Yes, I did see the video. I also read the same

article that the member read this morning. The mer.1ber refers to a very specific instance that individual chose to reference. I have no way to speak about that individual's circumstance. I do not know the individual. As the memb er may know, Patrick Boyer comes from Ontario, NDP Ontario, and I presume he chose the individuals for his video from his home area of Etobicoke South-Centre, I believe it is.

So she might like to have some opportunity to speak to her colleagues in Ontario about the debt load that that student would be carrying-t hat student that the member references of a $40,000 debt load, and she might ask her colleagues in Ontario what they plan to do about that particular student. I do not know the person, but I presume that is where Patrick Boyer found that individual. The member asks in terms of our government's plan; I am much more ab le to speak about our government's plan than what is happening in Ontario, though we all are watching Ontario with interest.

This government has made sure that we have the six-month period, the interest-free period in which to support students. I have also told the member that, because of our seriousness in this area, we will have a look at the program over the course of the year. We will look at the students who are applying; we will look at a number of issues; and we also, as I have said to the meml:>er, have been waiting for the Government of Canada to announce what changes that they will be ma king to the Canada Student Loan.

The kinds of changes that the Government of Canada will make to the Canada Student Loan will then be very important as all provinces look at their own student financial assistance, because Canada is looking at the needs assessment, Canada is looking at a numb er of different areas. The memb er has referred to them as rumour s, or rumours that she has heard in particular, well, we are waiting till we hear definitely from Canada what those changes will be. Then, when we hear them, we will have an opportunity to look at what additional needs of students in Manitoba might be. Ms.

Friesen: The minister makes reference to Ontario, and, yes, indeed, I have been making a

June 14 , 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 4181 number of references to Ontario, and the way in which Ontario, at least, has tried to make some mitigation of conditions for students. One of the m, which I specifically asked the minister about, was whether she had considered any interest-relief program for students who, after grad ua tion, were making in the region of $1 9,000-$20,000, which Ontario has. Ontario also has moved to a partial mitigation, a partial relief of interest payments for those who are ma king bet ween $20,000 and $35,000 a year on graduation.

So it would be interesting to compare that, and the minister's one relief area, which is the provision of a six-mon th time period after the endi ng of school and the beginning of the requirement to repay loans. I did also mention the Ontario program to target the heavy debt which is incurred by students who come from rural areas, who might be Franco­ Ontaria n, who are aboriginal, and who are han di cap ped , for whom there are special provisions for relief payment and debt payment in the Ontario program .

Again, what I am suggesting to the minister is that there are different ways of looking at these kinds of student financial loan programs, but they appear not to have been considered by this government. I wondered if they had, and had been rejected, and if so, for what reasons. So I think that Ontario, although it has moved to a loan program, certainly has tried to look at conditions of the greatest need. I am surprised that Manitoba has presumably either not looked at or rejected the Ontario proposals.

Of course, the third thing that Ontario did, which I think is significant, and which I have raised in the House a number of times in private memb ers' resolutions last year and this year, is that Ontario put over $2.5 million into work study programs at the universities, because of course that is the other side of student loan issues. Student loans began in the 19 60s when there was a reasonable expectation of students and their families that money could be earned during the summer s and that money could also be earned, to some extent, by part-ti me work during the winter.

Both of those conditions are very, very different now for students in the 19 90s. I am sure that we will see that when we look at the employment rates for students at the end of this summer. Those kinds of summer jobs that would pay the fees basically of students simply have gone, because students now have to support them selves during the summer. Their fees have gone up and continue to go up, and the summer jobs are not there in the same number, either from the federal government, from the provincial government or from private enterprise in Manitoba in particular.

So I thought the minister's answer was really not very helpful. I was specifically asking her about different kinds of programs in other provinces. British Columbia, for example, does have a rebate program for certain types of students, a loan rebate program . Aga in, I ask the minister has she considered these kinds of targeted programs which I would have thought would have fit to some extent with the Tory party's determination to reduce open programs and to prefer instead targeted programs? Has she looked at these?

Has she made any consider ation of them, or was this sim ply a determination to cut a line and to reduce it, as we know by about 19 97-98 there will be about $2 million or $3 million left in this line without, it seems to us, any kind of consideration of the broader social needs? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I have provided the member with our reasoning for moving to this particular program. I have also told her that we will have a look at the students who are applying and that we will be having a look at our program this year.

However, we are also hopeful that we will hear from the Government of Canada regarding the Canada Student Loan, which then will have perhaps some im pact on our Manitoba Student Financial Assistance and allow us then to make other kinds of changes as well. Ms. Friesen: The answer then, I assume, is that the minister did not look at any of these mitigating factors and proceeded on the basis of the desire to reduce a line. Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Acting Deputy Chairperson, as I explained to the member, our goal was to make sure that students in Manitoba had access to the funds that they needed in order to continue studying and that we made a change to make sure tha t those students would have the money available. Had we not made this change, perhaps the other kinds of changes that the me mber wondered whether they came from her caucus or not, those other two changes of limiting the amount

418 2 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 14 , 19 93 of money or of limiting the number of students on a first-come, first-s erved basis, we rejected those ideas. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, could the minister then answer my other question as to what, in her view and in her policy, is a reasonable debt load for students to carry? • (1 600) Mrs. Vodrey: It is very difficult to talk about that issue specifically, because we have to have some idea of the personal circum stances of each individual student.

The member is asking me to make some kind of a judgment around the amount of money that migh t be acceptable to those indi vidual stude nts and without giving any indication of program or other kinds of supports available. Ms. Friesen: One assumes that students taking a student loan have very few supports. Does the minister think that the amount of student loan carried by students should have any relationship to the industrial wage? Should it have any relation­ ship to the anticipation of the employment levels, in particular professional areas? For exaMple, we see the number of teachers declining in Manitoba.

Should there be any relationship between the debt load carried by those who are going through education and the absence of teaching jobs on graduation? Should there be a recognition as there is British Columbia that a debt load over a certain amount carried over a year is, in fact, rebated? I think Ontario is looking at a similar program? Mrs. Vodrey: As I have said to the memb er earlier, we have determined our program based on the need of the student. The need of the student has been a prime consideration. Manitoba has been very active in the whole area of needs asses smen t.

Perhaps the memb er now is suggesting that the amount of money students are able to access should be limited based on what faculty or program or short-tra ining program they might be in, and, if she is suggesting that kind of limiting based on what a student is studying, I have to say that it surprises me. We have based our program on need. Ms. Friesen: I do not know whether the minister chose to misunderstand, but I think what I said was quite clear. I asked her what she considered, as a Minister of Education, as a reasonable debt load for a student to carry. She chose not to answer that.

The second part of that that I asked was, had she essentially considered some of the programs that there are in British Columbia, for example, and which, I believe, Ontario is following? When a student reaches a certain debt load in their program , the amount beyond that-a nd they are essentially establishing a yearly amount, $5,000 to $6,000, for example, I believe in the case of Ontario-is then rebated .

The issue is very much one of need, one of need for students who are in programs, one of need which is related to their abili ty to find employment afterwards and that varies according to the kind of program they are in. Has the minister given any consideration in her planning of these programs, the !oan program, of the various ways in which student needs in Manitoba can be taken into account? Mrs. Vodrey: I have explained that our prime consideration was need.

The memb er continues to reference what is occurring in other provinces, but she references only a very small portion, one individual point of each of the programs in other provinces. She seems to want us to not really-not to put on the record on behalf of those provinces that she seems to be so familiar with what their whole programs are. I would say that it is perhaps misleading, one might say, to just use a single point of what occurs in another province and to somehow assume that then a student might get the same kind of benefits and perhaps more.

What I am saying to the member is that we have looked at the amount of money based on need, and that I have told her we will be looking at this program in its first year of operation. We will be looking at many aspects of the program, and we felt that the most important area-l can say it again for the 1O th time or more-was to make sure that students were able to access funding so that they could continue or enter into their program of study. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Acting Deputy Chair person, for the minister to say that what I am putting on the record is misleading, I think, is unwise.

I have asked specific questions about specific mitigating elements that other provinces deal with. Yes, I am more familiar with British Columbia and Ontario than I am with other provinces. I assume the minister has her staff here, and I assume that when the minister and her staff did develop this

part icular program-it is a dramatic change in

June 14 , 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 418 3 Manitoba policy- they did look at other provinces, and they did look at the way in which particular needs, which are not unfamiliar to this province -t he needs of aboriginal students, the needs of handicapped students, the needs of students who come from rural areas-that all of those needs are very similar across the cou ntry, that she would have looked for ways of targeting. This would not have been, it would seem to me, at loggerheads with any kind of conservative principles which she might uphold. [interjection) Yes, as the memb er for Dauphin (Mr.

Plohman) says, it would have indicated planning; it would have indicated an understand ing of what is happening in the rest of Canada and the way in which other provinces have dealt with this particular issue.

To say what I am putting on record-that is, the interest relief program , the loan rebate program in Ontario and British Columbia, the program for work study in the universities and colleges of Ontario-it seems to me what I am putting on record are programs based upon principles, principles which affect students in Manitoba and which one would have expected, anyone would have expected, any government in Manitoba of whatever political stripe to have looked at when they made a transition from a bursary program to a loan program.

So the issues here are ones of understanding the needs of Manitobans, of understanding the educ ational financing picture across Canada, and the abili ty of this go vernment to pl an for the needs of Manitobans. Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, the member has asked for consideration for the people of Manitoba. She says she is more familiar with British Columbia, and there was one other province that she also felt that she was more familiar with. I can tell her I am the most familiar with the province of Manitoba.

It is looking to meet the needs of students in Manitoba that we have moved to this program. The kinds of debt load that the students will have at the end of a program are based on, again, the length of the program and the assessed needs level of the students. As I have said from the very beginning, those students who are the most disadvantaged, we ma ke sure that they are eligible for the nonrepayable study assista nce. Manitoba does have that third level of bursary.

For students who are aborig inal, the member has spoken about targeted funds available for targeted groups of students, in her words, and she does, I think, know-perhaps maybe I could let her know about in Manitoba-that we have the Prince of Wales and Princess Anne scholarship. There are also some special bursaries for handicapped students, and we have also spoken about some of those for those students. The member also has referenced rural areas. The member may know, in Manitoba we do not count farm assets when we are looking at the assets side for the eligibil ity for Canada Student Loan.

Again, in the rural area, the parents' assets, net worth, including farm net worth, are not considered in the determination of expected parental contribution. Ms. Fri esen : But the issue that I was addressing was change. The Prince of Wales programs and the way in which rural assets are determined is not an issue in the change that is happening in this department.

Yes, those have remained standard, but what the minister has done is move from a bursary program to a loan program, and that is going to have a very long-term influence upon the kind of students who will think about university or college or further education in some way as part of their possible experience. Again, I have tried to get from the minister some estimate of what she will be suggesting to students through her Skills For Independent Living program, for example. What will be a reasonable debt load for students in particular circumstances?

I have looked for ways in which the new policies and the new programs had mitigating elem ents, mitigating factors, for students across Manitoba who have particular needs, and I find the minister's responses are- well, they are both predictable and repetitive. * (1 61 0) It seems to me that she could at le ast acknowledge that they did not look at these elements of other programs.

They did not look at what other provinces were doing, but they simply took one line, slashed it, said everybody is going to be treated the same and they are all going to go into debt, a debt that could be crippling for many students and which will also, I think in the long run, be limiting for the kind of population which we will

418 4 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 14 , 19 93 see in post-secondary education institutions in Manitoba. That, in terms of provincial institutions and provincial program s, of course, is the real tragedy here.

People who, for the past five or 10 years, might have though t of themsel ves as possibly ha ving the oppor tu nity for post-secondary education will now look at their brothers and sisters coming out of universities and colleges with large debt loads-$ 40,000, we do not know if that is an average or less than average or what we expect at the end of a Manit oba four-year program or two-year program-and simply will say, well, no, that is not for me; I am going to have to reduce my expectations. It will hav