Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 8 (27th Legislature, 1st Session)

27-1-8

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

,THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o'clock, Friday, March 8th, 1963. Opening Prayer by Madam Speaker. - MADAM SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions. Reading and Receiving Petitions. Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees. Notices of Motion. Intr.oduction of Bills. HON. STERLING R. LYON, Q. C. (Attorney-General) (Fort Garry) introduced Bill No. 33,

an Act to amend The Mortgage Act. MADAM SPEAKER: Before the Orders of the Day I would like to attract your attention to the gallery on my left, in the first section, where there are seated 25 Grade.11 pupils from - the Manitou School. This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Pembina. We are pleased to have you with us at this Session of the Manitoba Legislative Assembly. It is our hope that you will find the.afternoon profitable and enjoyable. We hope it will be an inspir ation to you and that you will come back and visit us soon again. I would also like to draw your attention to the gallery on my right in the second

section where there are 25 Grade 11 pupils of Precious Blood School, which is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for St. Boniface. We are happy that you are here to visit with us this afternoon, We hope that you Will learn something of the Manitoba Legislative Assembly in session here. We trust it will be beneficial in your program of studies and that you will visit us another day. MR. LAURENT DESJARDINS (St.

Boniface): Madam Speaker, since most of these students are French-speaking, I wonder if I can have your permission, as well as the permis sion of the rest of the members of this House, to say a few words of welcome to them in their mother tongue? MADAM SPEAKER: Permission granted. MR .

DESJARDINS: Madame L'orateur, c'est un plaisir r�el pour moi de souhaiter en frangais aux �l�ves du Grade lldu Pr�cieux Sang ainsi qu•'a Mademoiselle McDonald, une de leurs maitresses qui les accompagne ici cette apr�s-midi, une cordiale bienvenue et je tiens a leur d�montrer Madame que notre caractere bilingue, notre heritage, notre culture, toutes ces choses, sont reconnues et respecte'es dans cette Chambre et je crois qu•aujourd'hui plus que jamais le caracthe bilingue et le bi-culturalisme est necessaire dans notre pays et . j'esp�re que ces jeunes gens sauront jouir de leur visite ici cette apres-midi et qu'ils auront la chance de voir le systeme democratique 'a l'oeuvre et j'esp�re qu'ils pourront revenir en core nous voir souvent.

Merci. Translation: Madam Speaker, it is a real pleasure for me to extend in French to the Grade 11 students from Previous Blood as well as to Miss McDonald, one of the teachers with them this afternoon, a hearty welcome and I want to demonstrate, Madam, that our bilingual character, our heritage, our culture, all these things are acknowledged and respected in this House and I believe that today, more than ever, bilingualism and bi-culturalism are necessary in our country.

I hope these young people will enjoy their visit with us this afternoon and that they will have an opportunity of seeing our democratic system in action and I hope they will be able to come and visit us often again. Thank you. MADAM SPEAKER: I would also like to attract your attention to the first

section of the gallery on my right, where there are 21 Grade 7 and 8 pupils from MacDonald School, under the direction of their teacher, Mr. R. J. Watson. This school is situated in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Lakeside. We welcome you to the Legislature this afternoon. We hope that you will enjoy and learn something from the proceedings you see take place here. May it be profitable in your studies, and we trust you will want to visit us again.

I would like to attract your attention to the gallery on my left, seated in the second sec tion where we have 25 Grade 6 students from the Laura Secord School under the direction of their teacher, Mr. J. Hamm. This school is situated in the constituency of the Honourable the First Minister. We hope that you will enjoy yourself this afternoon as you watch the proceedings March 8th, 1963-> Page 103

(Madam Speaker cont'd) .• •• • in this House, that it will help you, too, in your studies and that you will come back and visit us soon again. Orders of the Day. HON. STEW ART E. McLEAN, Q. C. (Minister of Education) (Dauphin): Madam Speaker, I should like to lay on the table of the House, the report of the Department of Education for the year ending June 30th, 1962, and to inform the members that copies have already been supplied to the Clerk, a copy for each member of the House. · HON. GEO.

JOHNSON (Minister of Health) (Gimli): Madam Speaker, before the Orders of the Day I should like to lay on the table of the House the Annual Report of the Department of Health for the calendar year 1962. Copies will be available shortly for members of the House. HON. J. B. CARROLL (Minister of Welfare) (The Pas): Before the Orders of the Day I would like to lay on the table of the House the report of the Department of Welfare for the fiscal year 1961-62. I would like to advise members of the House that we will not have copies available for all members.

However, we do have some additional copies that we would be very pleased to let out to members if they have an interest in them. MR. D. L. CAMPBELL (Lakeside): Madam Speaker, before the Orders of .the Day are proceeded with I would like to direct a few questions, all on the same subject, to the Honourable the First Minister in his capacity as Provincial Treasurer. I would like to ask the Honourable the First Minister if he has seen the

article that was published in last evening's Tribune deal ing with the financial position of the province. Secondly, is the

article accurate, if he has had an opportunity of becoming acquainted with it?· Thirdly, has the information that has apparently been given to the press been furnished to the members of this House? And fourthly, is it cor rect that the total direct and guaranteed debt of the Province of Manitoba is now more than $'630 million? HON. DUFF ROBLIN (Premier) (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, I am not familiar with the subject matter the honourable gentleman has raised but I'll take his questions as notice and look into it. HON.

OBIE BAIZLEY (Minister of Labour) (Osborne): Madam Speaker, before the Orders of the Day I would like to ask leave of the House to make a statement concerning the Winter Works ·Incentive Program. MADAM SPEAKER: Has the member leave of the House? Agreed. MR. BAIZLEY: Madam Speaker, I would like to report to members of the House that the municipal Winter Works Incentive Program has been extended from April 30th to the end of May. A letter to this effect has been received from the Federal Minister of Labour, the Honourable Michael Starr.

I am pleased to report that Manitoba's Winter Employment Act, which provides for provincial assistance in this program, allows the province to carry its support measures to the end of May to conform with the federal plan. This winter Manitoba has again been participating in the federal plan by providing 50 percent of the wages of those who have been on social assistance or on municipal welfare for 30 days or more, and 25 per cent of the wages of those unemployed whose insurance benefits have run out or who are not covered by unemployment insurance.

With the federal government paying 50 percent of all wages on approved municipal winter works programs, it means that the wages of those who fall into these categories are covered 100 percent and 75 percent respectively, by the combined support of the two senior levels of government. The one-month extension of the Winter Works Incentive is a welcome one and there are a number of projects currently being undertaken or developed by municipalities which would not have been completed by the April 30th deadline.

Other major projects can be advanced con siderably while the provisions of the Winter Works program still apply. Members will be pleased to know that with nearly three months still to go the number of projects approved, the number of man days of work involved, and the value of the winter projects undertaken so far this winter have surpassed the total for all of last winter. So far this winter 285 projects have been approved, compared with 277 in all of the 61-62 program, and the number of men required for projects approved to date has been 4,100 compared with 3, 935 last year.

There has been an encouraging jump in the man days of work involved in the projects to date. They number 210,500 compared with 182, 884 for all of last year. The total cost of that portion of the pro jects undertaken during the period of the Winter Works Incentive Program is $12,200,000 to date compared with nearly $7,000,000 for all of last year. Madam Speaker, there has been an Page 104 March 8th, 1963 • I

(Mr. Baizley, cont'd) .•. •• active response from a growing number of municipalities to the program and their expanded participation is encouraging indeed. MR. RUSSELL PAULLEY (Leader of the New Democratic Party) (Radisson): Would the Minister permit a question on the basis of his statement? I would like to ask the Minister, Madam Speaker, if I may, whether or not the extension in the time period on the Winter Works program in conjunction with the Dominion Government is based on the fact that the unemploy ment situation in Manitoba is getting worse, and is worse, than it was at this time last year. MR.

BAIZLEY:Madam Speaker, the answer is no. MADAM SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The adjourned debate standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Inkster. The Honourable Member for Pembina. MRS. CAROLYNE MORRISON (Pembina): I beg leave of the House to let this motion stand. MADAM SPEAKER: Agreed. Proposed resolution standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Inkster. MR. MORRIS A. GRAY (Inkster): Madam Speaker, the Honourable Member for Pembina included my motion in her request. MADAM SPEAKER: Agreed. The proposed resolution standing in the name of the Leader of the New Democratic Party.· . MR.

PAULLEY: Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Inkster, that this Assembly urges the Government of Canada to reject nuclear weapons on land, water or air under Canadian jurisdiction, and in the hands of Canadian forces. Madam Speaker presented the motion. MR. PAULLEY: Madam Speaker, I realize that in introducing this resolution that I may be accused of taking a Communistic line of reasoning.

One of the difficulties that we of the New Democratic Party have is that when we propose matters of this nature for discussion, all too frequently certain groups of certain newspapers do not give us the credit for our sincere desire to have universal peace and an end to the ever-recurring world tensions. I want to state firmly and without equivocation that the New Democratic Party of Canada oppose Commun ism with the greatest amount of vigour at our disposal, even, I suggest Madam Speaker, to a greater degree than other quarters are doing.

We reject completely any association with any Communist-inspired organization. We have always done so and we will continue to do so. I know that it is a fact, Madam Speaker, that frequently we read in the newspapers the fact that certain Communist-inspired organizations here in the Province and across Canada, particularly in this field of nuclear weapons, that do propose resolutions similar in verbiage and contents as our own, but I want to say Madam Speaker, that the motivation of the two pro posals or the similar proposals are different.

We do so in the interest as we feel it of the Canadian citizens and the bringing about of world peace, where I suspect greatly the other party referred to has a motivation of assisting the Soviet Union, and I want it clearly under stood our position in this respect. We of the New Democratic Party realize that in this modern society Canada cannot re main neutral. We realize that our great nation has its part to play in the affairs of the world, . and we realize the necessity for CS,!}!lda to be prepared, if necessary to defend itself in the event of any outbreak of hostilities.

On the other hand, we firmly believe that in the sphere of the use of nuclear weapons, Canada should remain in the non..;,nuclear club. We feel that at the present time that being without nuclear weapons Canada is in a position to give leadership in an endeavour to arbitrate between the two great nuclear powers of the United States and the Soviet Union. We think that Canada as a non- nuclear nation has the support of most small and middle-size nations of the world at the present time in this great struggle in the nuclear field between these two great powers.

We think that if we were to permit nuclear weapons on our soil or in the hands of our forces this influence would be diminished and that the aim of Canada would be defeated. A year or so ago, Madam Speaker, we in this House proposed and passed -- it was pro posed by the government -- a resolution sponsored by the government opposite to send to the underdeveloped countries of the world teachers to aid in the development of these countries and to bring about a better understanding between our province and our nation and these countries.

This step was hailed in many quarters as a step in extending the hand of understanding to these nations. It is this type of action we suggest, Madam Speaker, which will enhance Canada's March 8th, 1963 Page 105

(Mr. Paulley cont'd) •• .••• importance in the eyes of other nations. That this matter of nuclear weapons is of great importance to Canada and to Manitobans as a component part there can be no doubt. For it was on the question of nuclear weapons for Canada that was in the main re sponsible for the defeat of our national government and for bringing abQut what now is the ob vious, a second general federal election within a year.

We saw that the Diefenbaker Conser vative Government at Ottawa was split on the question of nuclear weapons for Canada, and as the result of the split within the ranks of the Conservatives the government at Ottawa became ineffective. We also say that the Liberal Party completely changed its attitude almost overnight on the question of nuclear weapons. On one hand we had the Conservatives with no policy, on the other hand the Liberals with a policy so flexible that it could be changed almost overnight at the will of their leader.

Need I recall to those in this Howie, Madam Speaker, what happened at the recent con vention of the Manitoba Liberal Party dealing with the question of nuclear weapons for Canada, where according to press reports the delegation debated the question in the morning, could come to no agreement, they were prepared according to press reports to table the motion prior to going to lunch, they couldn't agree on a policy, and then on reading press reports over their lunch hour, finding out that the fuehrer of their party had changed Liberal policy, scuttled back into the convention halls and firmly adopted the policy of Mike Pearson, which policy I suggest, Madam Speaker, was changed without any consultation with the .so-called grass roots that the Liberals talk so often about of that party.

That this policy has changed almost overnight there is no doubt. I refer, Madam Speaker, to a press report of January 11th, .1961, and quote Lester Pearson. Mr. Pearson had this to say on January 11th, .1961, according to the Free Press. "I made the point," he said, "and I will repeat it, that a policy of strength and inde-pend ence or of co-operation with allies does not require Canada itself to become a nuclear power.

Nor does it require Canada to continue her present role in NORAD, which among other ·things would mean that Canadian forces would use nuclear weapons under single or dual control." End of the quote of the Leader of the Liberal Party, January, 1961. · In. the Toronto Star in Novemt:ie·r of 19�, Mr. Pearson iS quoted as having said that Canada should renegotiate her commitments with NATO to take a non-nuclear role in the West ern Alliance. He told the Canadian Committee for Nuclear ..•.. that Canada could negotiate for a non-nuclear role inNATO and still fulfill all her obligations to that alliance.

However, Madam Speaker, on January 12th of this year the position of the Liberal Party was completely reversed by the Liberal Leader. I don't think that it's necessary for me in this debate to draw to the attention· of this House or to deal at any length with the position of the Social Credit Party on this very vital. matter. I would suggest, Madam Speaker, that insofar as the Social Credit Party it is lmown that there is almost a nuclear war going on between the leader of that party_ and his deputy leader.

Madam Speaker, I do not hink that it is necessa ry for me to point out to members of this House that there is no defense against au.:.out nuclear war. I do not think it should be necessary for me to state the obvious that in the event of any nuclear at tacks the use of nuclear weapons could not be. localized. It isn't suggested in some quarters that Canada being in possession of nuclear weapons would act as another deterrent to. nuclear warfare.

It is well-lmown that between the United States and the Soviet Union there is at pres ent sufficient nuclear power.to have the explosive equivalent of 50· tons of TNT for every man, woman and child on the face of the earth. It is bad enough to know that these two great nations are in possession of this power, but think how much greater the danger to the peace of the world and its extin�tion would be if other nations were to join the nuclear clubs, and there would be that extra number of fingers on triggers.

I appreciate the fact that even that great nation, Great Britain itself, only has a relatively small number of nuclear weapons amounting to about 2 percent. I note according to press reports that there seems to be an endeavour on the part of France at the present time to joiil the nuclear club, and I suggest that this should not occur. There is no need for other nations, and particularly our nation of Canada, to provide or to be provided with nuclear weapons. . .

It has been said by some that Canada now has Bomarc and other planes which can be equipped with nuclear weapons, and we say that in the rapid extension of scientific lmowledge and in the field of technical warfare that the Bomarc and the other types of planes which could be equipped -- thank goodness they're not as yet equipped with nuclear warheads -- they're Page 106 March 8th, 1963

(Mr. Paulley cont'd) .•••• becoming more and more ineffective as the days go on. It has been stated, and I think that the day of the manned bomber is over. The manned bomber itself is no protection against intercontinental ballistic missiles capable of travelling thousands of miles, and that fact, Madam Speaker, renders obsolete in the opinion of many military advisers, the manned bomber. So I suggest that when we raise the question of having the likes of the Bomarc which can be equipped, but not necessarily must be equipped, with nuclear warheads, that Canada would be ill advised to do so.

Nuclear warheads for short-range installations and planes in Canada could, at the most, only make a small contribution to nuclear deterrents. I suggest, Madam Speaker, that we have enough nuclear deterrents in the world at the present time in the hands of the two nations that I mentioned before, the Soviet Union and the United· states of Amer ica.

I was speaking the other day to a student at the University on this very important subject, and she said to me, "Well, I don't agree with you particularly in your policy, because while I do agree with you what could happen as the result of a nuclear weapon, wouldn't it be a great comfort to me when I knew that there may be intercontinental missiles coming to me that I could die in the knowledge that one was going across the other way at the same time.

" And I suggest that insofar as deterrents are concerned that it is that fear of the magnitude of the weapons now in the hands of the great nations -- these two great nations -- thatts sufficiently deterrent to prevent nuclear weapons, and that Canada itself.should not accept them because of this reason, and.because if Canada were to accept them, being a member of the NATO alliance, what assurance -,- and I don't think that there is any.__ that the nations of the Warsaw pact would not likewise feel justified in becoming possessors, or having in their possession nuclear weapons?

In regard to the forces in Europe, nuclear weapons in their hands would increase but little the effectiveness of the NATO force. But what it might do-- and I suggest that this is what it would do --, would give to all of the other nations on the other side of the curtain the right tO likewise be armed .with nuclear weapons. I want, Madam Speaker, in connection with this very important and vital subject tO the people of Canada, the people of the world, I want to pay a compliment to one of our local news..;. papers.

It isn't very often that I am much in agreement with what the Winnipeg Tribune has to say, but I want tO compliment that paper on its series of nuclear ..•.•.•. in their editions which appear nightly in the paper, pointing out -- I believe sincerely on a factual basis -- the devasta tion that can happen, and what the world may face if there is extension of the nuclear club, if perchance some maniac inadvertently or otherwise put his finger tO the trigger tO start a world wide holocaust.

And I say, Madam Speaker, and suggest to all members of this House, and to all Manitobans to follow this series, as I have done with great interest. Now I know, Madam Speaker, that in this very important question, one could go on for hours quotfug experts in this particular field and I do not claim to be one, of what is likely to o-::cur, and that it is not my in' tention to do so, but it is, I think, my duty ·tO draw the substance of this. resolution tO the mem bers of this House.

As I said at the outset we do this in the interests of an understanding and a firm desire that we here in Canada should firmly state our position tO the world so that we will be in a position to carry on what we have often considered our sphere and our job among the nations of the world, that of a peacemaker, that of a nation who has the authority, who has the knowledge tO become a nuclear power itself, but rejecting this ...•.. taking what I think is the proper attitude, that we in this great nation should continue our role as the peacemaker, that we should continue being the arbitratOr between the forces of destruction, and that we should continue insofar as the great nations themselves by magnifying and extending the philoso phy as exhibited here in this House of the hands of friendship and understanding tO the under developed countries of the world, which countries, it being a non-nuclear club we can ....• I suggest, Madam Speaker, that if Canada were to become a member of a nuclear club, our place would be lost in the council of world affairs.

I think that Canada should spend every bit of its energy and its strength into the United Nations, and make that great organization truly effective so that no longer do we have a fear, a daily fear, that some maniac somewhere sets off a holocaust for which there is no defence. MR. CAMPBELL: Madam Speaker, may I ask the Honourable Leader of the NDP Party a question?

I would like to ask the Honourable Leader of the NDP Party, Madam Speaker, in asmuch as he has dealt with the nuclear policy of his party, the Social Credit Party and the Liberal Party, would he be so kind as tO enlighten us as tO the policy of the Conservative Party? March 8th 1963 Page 107

MR . PAULLEY: If the Honourable Member for Lakeside had 15'een listening to my intro ductory remarks, I said that the Government of Canada which was the Conservative Government was defeated because they had a split policy, or no policy. I do think, though, however, and I must say this in all fairness to the Conservative Party of Canada -- and I try to be fair --·is that it dues appear that their present policy as enunciated by their Prime Minister and by Howard Green seems to be, at least to some degree, trying to bring a little order out of the chaos that prevailed at Ottawa before the dissolution. MR .

KEITH ALEXANDER (Roblin): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member from Virden, that the debate be adjourned. Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MADAM SPEAKER: The adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the Honourable Mem ber for Turtle Mountain and the proposed motion of the Honourable Leader of the Opposition in amendment thereto. The Honourable Member for Hamiota. MR . B. STRICKLAND (Hamiota): Madam Chairman, I too join in congratulating you in your new post as Speaker of the Legislature.

When listening to the speech of the Leader of the Opposition I thought first of all that it was a good speech, and when he sat down after twenty five minutes, I thought it was a much better speech. I could see this as being a precedent, and I thought it was a good one for everyone to follow. But after reading it over I could only con clude that the Leader of the Opposition was very confused.

He begins by saying, "On reading the speech from the Throne, Madam Speaker, I was pleased to see that the government had learned something from the election campaign." Well, I would think that we all learned something from the election campaign, and firstly that it was the expressed will of the people that the Conser vative Party resume the role of government in the Province of Manitoba. . The motion of the Liberal leader is certainly contrary to this expressed will of the people of our province.

To me, the people of Manitoba less than three months ago said to the Roblin govem ment, "It is because of your capacity to make decisions and to put those decisions into policies that resolve our problems, that we re-elect you as our representatives in the Legislature." How could anyone, least of all the Leader of the Opposition, interpret the findings of December's vote otherwise?

He says elsewhere, and I am quoting him, "It is not our intention to be in any way obstructive either during this session or sessions to follow, and the government will find that its proposals will not meet with opposition from us just because we happen to be sitting in the Opposition." Surely his motion is intended to defeat the government, and who could interpret this otherwise than being obstruction and opposition to the government's progress. Further than this, Madam Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition claims authorship to most of the government's programs as outlined in the Throne Speech.

He says, "We favour an amendment to the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation granting of loans to beef c:ittle producers" -- they want more technical schools, increased teachers' pensions, grants to affiliated colleges, a program of urban renewal, reciprocal trucking arrangements, uniform time and others. His entire speech is saying, "We favour these things all the time; we thought of them first; without us these measures wouldn't be before the Legislature at this time.

" And then he concludes, Madam Speaker, by saying that if the people of Manitoba do not allow the Liberals to bring in these measures, we will stop anyone else from implementing them. The old saying "like father like son" -- Father Mike won't abide by the decisions of Canada, and Son Gil said he won't abide by the decisions of the people of Manitoba. Elsewhere in his speech he said "Some days before the government spokesmen had said anything about their agricultural policy, at a meeting at Virden I clearly stated our own view on this subject, and the position of our party.

Madam Speaker, the Tribune of November 28 th reports on the Leader of the Opposition speaking in Virden, and I presume that if this was his first speech in this connection-- IJ and he said it was -- then the meeting must have been November 27th. Well, on November 26th, my nomination meeting was held in Hamiota. This was one day earlier and the Honour- able George Hutton, who was the guest speaker, outlined in full detail the agricultural program of the Conservative Party.

Virden is only 35 miles from Hamiota and if the Leader of the Oppo- sition happened to be at my meeting I must apologize for not having recognized him. He says further that the government is handicapping the municipalities by not assisting them in their road planning. Well, increased engineering assistance has been provided to rural municipalities, particularly for those projects which are constructed under contract and for street work in towns Page 108 March 8th, 1963

(Mr. Strickland cont'd) •.•••• and villages constructed in conjunction with the access road programs. Rural municipalities may avail themselves of the engineering services of the High ways Branch for advice on any problem on road construction. The Highways Branch provides information on traffic counts to the rural municipalities for the purpose of assisting them in planning their main market road systems.

This government's policy of assisting the rural municipalities to constn�ct roads on a 60- 40 share cost basis provides further opportunity for assistance in municipal road planning·, and to my knowledge, having contacted all of the muni cipalities in my area, they are quite happy and they are certainly grateful for the assistance given by this government in planning their roads.

It seems to me, Madam Speaker, that if the people unquestionably say that "we want the Conservative Government policies, " and particu larly if one claims authorship to policies being advocated by the government, how could any one in all consciousness vote against the implementation of thof]!�.policies? The Leader of the Opposition asked this House to do just that, and I am sure that-his motion must be defeated. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. GORDON E. JOHNSTON (Portage la Prairie): Thank you Madam Speaker.

First of all, let me add to the many other congratulations that you have received on the appointment of your most difficult, exacting job. I would also like to congratulate the previous speakers, in particular the new members, and to mention a few, the members from Turtle Mountain, Swan River, St. John's, Assiniboia, Arthur, River Heights, LaVerendrye, Burrows, and others too numerous to name at this time. I would also-like to compliment to you, Madam Speaker, these gentlemen on their concise, persuasive method of putting their messages across, and I also envy the ones who are so fluently bilingual.

After hearing from many of the veteran mem bers of the House -- and I am biased on who I think the better ones are -- after hearing the deft and persuasive answers from some of the ministers on the government skle and hearing the observation from the member from Radisson that in the last 10 years he has seen the .. .. of the House change to the extent where there are only 10 members left from before 1953, the first observation that struck me was that this is a high degree of mortality; in fact it approaches fratricide.

However, in the last few days I have changed some of that opinion and I believe part of this degree of mortality has resulted from eye failure in having to digest the massive and numerous reports that have been placed before us.

Madam Speaker, I have the honour to represent the people of that historic constituency, Portage la Prairie, which perhaps you may know at one time was the seat of a short-li ved republic put into operation by a rather famous Manitoban back--- in the eighteen hundreds, and while my opposition and difference of opinion with the present government is well- known, we do not intend to carry our difference that far. I would like to call your attention, Madam Speaker, to the number of fine public people who have come from the Portage constituency and area.

I would remind you that this area has at one time supplied a Prime Minister to Canada, at another time it has supplied a Premier to Manitoba-- and I might say one of the finest. It has supplied. many cabinet ministers, MLAs and MPs and in this group I would cer tainly be the first one to say that the former sitting member from Portage belongs there. Touching briefly on that I would say this, that it has happened before and will happen a�n, Madam Speaker, when friends meet with differing political views and they go to a:n elec��on, one of them stays home.

To tell you briefly a bit about our constituency -- it is approxj.puitely seventeen miles long; it contains the City of Portage la Prairie, about 12 1/2 thousand people, and primarily it is dependent on agriculture. The fine Portage Plains that surround it -- di versified farming, long established, has been the backbone of our city and our constituency. It has one of the oldest continuous fairs, agriculturally, in the Province of Manitoba, dating back to 1882. I would like for a moment to dwell on the growth of our constituency.

Since 1940 it has approximately doubled in population and we have hopes of carrying on this growth in a steady and orderly manner and, in line with this in the past 10 years the City of Portage Council, with other levels of government, has set out on a policy to try to attract industry in order to provide jobs and diversity our economy somewhat. We have had some degree of success in this matter and I would like to enumerate some of that success for you. We have presently two pea and seed cleaning and packing establishments, one of them the largest in Canada. I am referring in particular to the B. C. Pea Growers.

McCallister's Pea and Seed is not far behind, March 6th, 1963 Page 109

(Mr, Strickland cont'd) ••.•. and under the previous administration negotiations were carried out with Campbell's Soup to come to Portage, which is a; well-known plant now in Manitoba. By breaking through on the processing of food other valuable industries have been attracted. To enumerate a few, there is the Western Process ing .and Cold Storage Plant, there is the West ern Mushroom Growers just in operation last year.

In other lines of endeavours we have the Portage Memorials, stone manufacturing, Guinn and Simpson, stone manufacturing, Dow Signs, Astbury Grain Blowers and Snow Blowers Manufacturing, Northern Equipment, which manufacture agricultural sprayers; presently under construction there is the .. . .... Manu- facturing which hopes to employ upwards of 300 people. So, Madam Speaker, you can see by the firms that I have enume rated here, we have presently employed, and hope to employ, up wards of 700 people in secondary and allied industries that are not wholly dependent on agri culture.

In or(ier to carry on the steady growth in our city we have to take into account the physi cal aspects of the city and lo1:1g-term planning for the future. I would like to dwell a mon:e nt on the physical properties of our city. It is bounded on the southeast by a new installation - perhaps it has been heard about before here -- a lagoon, a sewage lagoon, which precludes any development in that direction. In the eastern side of the city our water works system of Portage la Prairie is such that it cannot be carried any further east and there can be no more development in that direction, and in the southeast

section there is low-lying land, the river, and land that is not suitable for expansion whatsoever. In the southern -area of the city we are bounded by beautiful Crescent Lake and Island Park, which precludes any move in that direction. Both railway iines go through the north side of our city; although there is room for expansion there it is expansion that only would go there if nothing else at all was available. Now thiS leaves the western side of our city which has been growning to a startling extent.

It is show ing progress and growth year by year, and this is part of the reason that we opposed the structure which we feel is going to permanently put a clamp on the growth of Portage. I do not intend to dwell on any opposition to that at this time but I thought I would mention it when I was describing our area. · By and large I would say, Madam Speaker, that the constituency of Portage la Prairie has been welJ,..treated by previous admins trations and the present one. We have complaints, some of them of a minor nature.

We. are not overly demanding, I think, in our demands or our requests, but I would like to point out a few things that were mentioned on the hustings. Some of them were mentioned by the former member and we would like, if possible, to see some progress made in that direction. Perhaps it would be noticed in the press, in the past three or four weeks there was a large meeting held at St. Claude, attended by some 400 people of the area.

Representation was there from constituencies from the border right on through to Lake side, and they are urgently requesting the government to bring forth plans for a highway from the American border north going through Portage la Prairie. As you will note, Madam Speaker, the main entries into the province now are south of Winnipeg and south of Brandon, and we feel. that this could certainly fit into a well-planned program to be of benefit not only to Portage and its area but to the central Manitoba area in particular.

It would be helpful in the movement of the livestock industry, the feed industry, which we understand the government is bringing for ward to develop in the Interlake area, and it would be of benefit to a great area of central Man itoba. In line with this we would ask the present government to look at replacement of the present bridge across the Assiniboine River which would serve this new highway and which presently has a very heavy traffic count serving the RCAF•s Southport, serving the Oakville and the old No. 1 highway area, for the present bridge is quite narrow.

As a matter of fact there have been some serious accidents there; it is not in keeping with the traffic count that we believe we have to justify the new structure. We would like to have improvement in the junction of the old No. 1 and the new No. 1 high way east of Portage. Again there has been a serious accident and a number of minor ones there because it has not been double-laned in accord with safety and the heavy traffic. We would further request assistance on the centre portion of Saskatchewan Avenue as it passes through the City of Portage.

This is No. 1 highway; it is wide and large enough to carry traffic, but it needs certain improvements to bring it up to safety and so on. Wbile this next matter is not in the constituency of Portage, I would ask the consideration Page 110 March 8th, 1963 I •

(Mr. Johnston cont'd) ..••. Madam Speaker, of the particular departments that are consider ing the building of a new highway, we understand, north from Portage, either to Delta <;>r with in the vicinity of Delta. Here on the prairies we have certain natural resources. We hope to •....• them along, keep them as healthy and long-lived as possible. In this particular in stance I am referring to the famous Delta Marshes. · This in itself is a natural health and beauty spot. It's a game refuge.

It has many things to commend it to the people of all of Manitoba; sportsmen from all over the province and other places come here. We would like this highway if possible to conform with the old highway and not needlessly disturb this situation, as I believe we. know it is one of the last two main fly-ways left in North America that the ducks, the wild game and so on use, and the:r:e is great concern in that area .that this is going to be permanently damaged or taken up by. super highways or structures of this nature that could make use. of the old roadbed instead of taking a new path.

Touching briefly on general items of your program of the province. I would like to see improvement in the ,legislation that would give some assistance to people who are giving it an honest try to struggle along on a small income. who do not quite qualify for assistance -- they are too proud to make a big point of asking but at the same time there are cases of definite need that exist in the income bracket of, let's say, under $200 a month. I would like to quote a case that I have had brought to me.

It is a case of a husband unemployed because. of a chronic illness, has no income of any kind, his wife works full-time for approximately $180 to $200 a month, they have two children, and the husband has to have drugs averaging cost $15.0 0 per month. While. I do not know if this gentleman has carried his application to the final degree, he has applied for assistance and was told that he did not qualify because among other things he ·had some small savings and he owned a home. The home in question has not waterwo:r:ks, no sewage facilities and it's very modest.

I would like consideration given for assistance to people like this, who are proud, hardworking, are trying to do what is right, pay their way. I'm not suggesting that there are things too much wrong, but in this particular case I know this woman quite well, and being human she is quite tempted just to quit her job and say, "Well I see others are being looked after, I think I should get the same consideration." Another thing, more of a general nature, not touching on the constituency of Portage, I would like to draw to the attention of the Minister of Education, Madam Speaker, and that is this.

Under existing regulations in school divisions in the Greater Winnipeg area in particular, because of the number of teachers they employ they can qualify for assistance in a supervisory program. Now, I'm sure there must be other areas such as Portage la Prairie where they do have a high number of teachers, but not high enough to qualify for this type of assistance.

I'm thinking mainly of supervisory personnel, superintendents, guidance counsellors, people like that, and I would like to suggest action be brought in along the lines that school divisions and districts where they are not large enough should be able to unite with their neighboring areas or divisions and get some assistance along this manner. I would like to thank you, Madam Speaker, for your time, and any time that you feel that I am overstepping the rules, I shall be williilg to be corrected. Thank you. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Matthews. MR . W. G. MARTIN (St.

Matthews): Madam Speaker, it's I think just over a week ago that the Honourable Member for Pembina and I escorted you to the exalted seat which you now occupy. If I would add a word to the words of congratulation which we offered in our nomina tion address on that eventful day, I would simply say that we have seen, and listened, and ad mired. as you have conducted your office in presiding over the destiny and the work of this Assembly. I w,ould like also to add my words of congratulation to the Mover and Seconder of their address in reply to the Speech from the Throne.

I remember the occasion when I did it, andhow I came with fear and trembling, but it's satisfactory for them to know the opinion of the members that they did a very good job; we welcome them here and expect to hear much from them in the days to come. I would like also to offer a word of congratulation to the new ministers.

I only had one satisfactory thought in my mind -- one among the many -- and that was that being new ministers they won't make many long speeches on their departmmts·when they come to the estimates so we're likely to save some good time there providing we have the constructive co-operation on the part of the Opposition which has already been promised us by the Leader of the Opposition. March 8th, 1963. Page 111

(Mr. Martin cont'

d) Then the new members. We have a number of new members, new faces and perhaps they are wondering in the initial stages whether we are a sort of belligerent crowd when we can stand up and shake our fists and raise our voices in oratorical conduct; but I would like to assure them that there's a very fine spirit of fellowship back of it all, something which should ...... . of debate. They're great friends upon occasion.

You know quite recently, even last night when the storm beset us, we were out here trying to get started and this car refused to budge and I turned to my left and said "what are we going to do" --and I kept watching and waiting for a good friend, and the good friend that appeared was in the person of the Honourable Member for St. Boniface. He said "I have bare handsn --he often fights with bare hands --he said "give me your gloves, put the wheel straight," and he went out in front and fairly lifted the car and we were on our way before I had my --my mouth popping ..

I had a little "Hail Mary"forthe Mem ber for St. Boniface. I have a special word I .think for the Member for Assiniboia. You've already heard ques tions asked in the House. I would like to ask the Honourable Member for Assiniboia, whether his coach has decided to put him on the offence team or the defence, because I'd like to assure· ' him that it won't be long before he'll discover that the defence team of his squad is very weak and that when the offence team go into action it isn't much better. They seem to have a faculty of not making yards and having to give up the possession of the ball.

And that's not the end of their troubles. They have a husky quarterback; they got him from St. George; and so often this quarterback overshoots the mark. So I would like to say to the Honourable Member for Assini- boia, "if you're really going to help your team, you have to be ready to go both ways." Then there was another word of congratulation and that was to the Honourable Member for Lakeside. Forty years of continuous service in the Legislature, and we hope and pray for him that he will continue to enjoy health and vigour. He's got the vigour.

I watched him two days ago going down the corridor and down the marble staircase on a regular hop, skip and a jump. I said he's either going to break the four-minute barrier or he's going to break his neck, and we didn't want that. We hope, Madam, that you will be long spared to make your presence felt and your sage opinion known within this Assembly. But when the Leader of the Opposition referred to the 40 years of service, my mind went over to a Biblical narrative of an ancient people who under their leader, Moses, languished for 40 years in the wilderness.

I wouldn't say for one moment that the Honourable Member for Lakeside who was the "Moses" of his party for a number of years, spent all those years in the wilderness --of course that wouldn't be so; but I would say that iike Moses, he didn't quite make the promised land. He saw it lying before him, he got a scent of its flowers, a glimpse of its beauty, but he had to settle for a vision and a dream, and the end of the

chapter for this leader and his followers was the tiresome, lonely trek back to the dull monotony of the wilderness. Of course the citizens of the land must have felt let down at this failure on the. part of their trusty men of arms to see their bedraggled host returning like Napoleon's retreat from Moscow; but it wasn't for long that they felt like that, for there came a resurgence of hope and confidence as they hailed a new champion. When he raised his standard they rallied about him as they had never done in their history, and when he unfurled his banner they could see the two letters "D.

R." And someone said "I suppose that means "Duff is Rex". No, it meant "daring and ready", and when you scrutinized the banner againyou saw there in bold letters "Solidarity forever", and so the people of the land marched forward to a new destiny of progress and prosperity. I noted, Madam Speaker, that the Leader of the Opposition in his speech the other day was very critical of the Throne Speech.

In fact he didn't find very much in that Speech that was very good, but the thing that irked him very, very much was the government's statement that they were planning their economy for the years ahead, and he even suggested that the First Minister must have undergone conversion, because a few years ago when he was in opposition he voted against the sub-amendment of the CCF which called for social and economic planning.

I would like to know the content of the speech that led up to that sub-amendment, and I'm rather suspi cious --and this was perhaps why the then Leader of the Opposition voted against it --that it had a brand of economic planning with a socialistic flavour. Because the government of today advocates a policy of economic planning, Madam Speaker, it doesn't indicate in any degree any change of heart or of policy, and when the Conservative Government talks of planning it does not Page 112 March 8th, 1963

(Mr. Martin, Cont'd. ) .••• mean standing by with idle hands viewing blueprints, or adopting the macabre-like philosophy of waiting for something to turn up. It means that they are ready to go forward in a great policy of advancement which will lead to prosperity. Indeed it's true that every phase of the economic development of the government of today is in high gear. Man itoba is having a glorious time so we hear --and so it's true --and I believe that under this ad ministration we are destined to revolutionize the economic life of the province. Planning is a common word with the Opposition.

It appeared about thirty times in one paragraph of the speech of the Leader of the Opposition. But, Madam Speaker, planning of itself is not enough.· The Opposition are full of ideas, but ideas are useless unless they're crystallized into conduct, into action. A man comes home from the office in the evening, throws off his hat and coat, goes 'into the diningroom through to the kitchen, says to his Wife: "Weil, dearie, what's cook ing?i' and she sighs and says, "Nothing yet, but I've found a wonderful recipe". You see a good recipe won't feed a hungry stomach.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating, and so, while the government with splendid foresight is planning for tomorrow and tomorrow, at the same time they're cooking and setting appetizing meals before the people to meet the needs of today. So I think, Madam Speaker, that a fair picture of the government, a fair cartoon of the First Minister, not be a--you know, the Free Press, the boy scout --but a woman in the garb of a housewife, sleeves rolled up, apron pinned on, with a recipe book in one hand and a cooking utensil in the other. I refer to the boy scout though, Madam Speaker.

I don't think that the Free Press does the First Minister a disservice because the boy scout doesn't secure his cov eted badges --and in the cartoon his breast is covered with them --he doesn't secure them fo_r ideas and for unfulfilled planning. He secures those badges for things done, and things well done, and so I take off my hat to the Free Press when they use the cartoon of the boy scout for the First Minister; A stellar example of realistic planning on the part of the government is seen in the fact that the provincial economy is sound --yes, I said: "Manitoba never had it so good.

" And I think that's a fair and modest appraisal of the economic situation of the province. Whether it's agriculture, whether it's public works or highways or industry and commerce or labour or ed ucation, or health or welfare, everywhere it's the same story. Perhaps you recall the First Minister's Budget Speech of last year. We have resumed a forward momentum in our economic affairs, and with this resumption of a high rate of growth and development we have moved to ward greater strength with which we may confidently and effectively meet other problems and other objectives.

Madam Speaker, does that look like indecision, or procrastination 'or hesita tion? One of the most outstanding events last year was the trade mission to Europe. It was the unveiling of a show window for Manitoba and I understand that valuable business contacts are already made. All of which means that the countries of the Old World are being introduced as never before to the products and the manufacturers of this the Keystone Province of the Dominion. Manitoba has established for herself a place in the overseas markets which will grow and increase in volume and importance with the growing and increasing years.

Madam Speaker, I think there is a tang of boom in the Manitoba air. Not any spectacular boom --Lord preserve us from that --but a steady ..•.. solid advance. The MacMillan Report which was tabled here on Wednesday is a formidable and a voluminous document, weighty, not only in the size and the number of its pages, but in the important research which it reveals, and this document forecasts a golden opportunity for a great expanse in business and in indus try in Manitoba in the years to come.

And as has been already said, we owe a tremendous debt of appreciation to the Chairman and to the large representative committee of citizens who con tributed generously of their time and gave to the committee work the benefit of their expert knowledge and experience; and as we scan the pages of that massive report we find that it pre sents a kaleidoscopic view of the economic development of the province over the next decade. A daring and a gigantic undertaking --seven billions of capital to attain the desired goal, 75,0 00 new jobs matching the increase of our industrial and economic growth.

Does that sug gest, I repeat, Madam Speaker, indecision and procrastination? Small wonder to me that the other provinces of the Dominion are keeping a close eye on Manitoba and are watching intently - and I was prepared to say even watching enviously. But the most important field of govern ment operation is that which is expressed in terms of a human equation. We are spending a lot of money today to better the life of the people; we are spending more money today in this field March 8th, 1963 Page 113

(Mr. Martin, Cont1d. ) . . • • than what represented the whole budget for all departments of this government not so many years ago. Of course it's a long-t erm program but much is being achieved. There isn't time at my disposal to touch upon many areas , but I would like to refer to one. The Speech from the Throne refers to The Child Welfare Act.

What a wonderful field that is, casting, giving care and protection to under-privileged children, the children of broken homes, and it's worthy to note that in this splendid work of sheltering these unfortunate children from the cruel blasts of fate, the Department of Welfare, as the Department of Health, are working in close co-operat ion with volunteer welfare agencies, and, Madam Speaker, it would be a retrograde step if the state took over the whole responsibility in the sphere of social re habilitation and amelioration.

The work of public spirited citizens organized in these volun teer agencies represents a vital factor in seeking to provide a solution to these intricate and vexed social problems. I And then there is a reference in the Speech from the Throne to the mentally retarded. I think of these children of sub-normal mentality, lacking opportunity. very often because of lack · of paremtal care. Time was when these mental retarded children, like crippled children, were thrown out as worthless upon the refuse heap of the world , but that is changing today.

Time was when these children were incapable of maintaining-a foothold in the world, finding them- selves at war with society, unable to socialize themselves or to develop a concept of life that would make it possible for them to become efficient citizens; but that day is rapidly passing, and this government and other governments are doing something by way of bringing a new day of hope and writing a new

chapter of opportunity for these mentally retarded children, and in this work the Departments of Health, . Welfare, Education are uniting their efforts and with· tremendous and far-reac hing results . ' Madam Speaker, procrastination and indecision. Well perhaps from the same source we might have the statement that the Conservative Party is reactionary. Well the history of Conservatis m, Madam Speaker is, that its policies, the reverse to reactionary.

Well, the history of Conservatism, Madam Speaker, is that its policies, ·the reverse to reactionary, have always been forward-looking , and perhaps it may surprise some people for us to say that the Conservative Party is the party of reform, and it was in that atmosphere that it received its birth. This government hasn't hesitated for one moment to take such steps as are in the best interests of the people and are conducive Madam Speaker, to happier living conditions.

The greatest good of the greatest number . is the underlying principle of our social policies in this province ; not reactionary, but forward looking; not socialistic, but retaining the initiative of individual enterprise and at the same time extending the helping hand of the state to those who are being crowded out in the race of life by reason of sickness or poverty or similar misfortune. The Opposition suggest in their amendment that the Government does not merit the confidence of the people. Do they or don't they -- answer, December 14th.

The people of Manitoba are more than satisfied with the policies of the present government, which means , fair play and a square deal for everybody. For the man upon the farm who has dedicated his time and subs tance - and energy and enterprise to replenish the earth and to cause it to flourish and who is entitled to a fair reward for his work. A square deal and fair play for the man who stands at the fact- ory bench; for the merchant who sells the goods behind the counter; for the manufacturer pro ducing goods for local consu mption and for the overseas market.

A square deal and fair play for the young people emer ging from our schools and colleges equipped and trained to take their place in the high competitive markets of an academic and technological society. Fair play and a square deal for the newcomers from beyond the seas, who are seeking freedom and security in this Western world. Fair play and a square deal for the needy and the afflicted and those who are handicapped. For all people in every walk of life the right to a square ·deal and fair play -- and this government stands by that.

Oh yes, you can fool some of the people all the time and all the people some of the time ; but you can't fool all the people all the time. And you can't fool the people of Manitoba.

We have here in this province a highly enlightened electorate; they know what they want; they appreciate the ethics of good government, and the government knows that it best serves its own interests as well as those of the citizens by sound measures of pro gressive legislation, the avoidance of extreme partnership in administration, and by exercising every possible economy in giving and accounting for their dealings for their income and Page 114 March 8th, 1963

(Mr. Martin, Cont'd. ) .••• expenditure entrusted to their care. All this Madam Speaker, shows that the Conservative Government is working overtime in the interests of the people, and upon their faithfulness to the trust committed to their care they're prepared to state their political destiny.

So, Madam Speaker, in the light of all of this, a lone voice crying in the wilderness, indecision, procrastination, hesitation, no confi dence, is drowned out by a voice of happy citizens of all classes and creeds and of many races, who raise their glasses to do honour to the doughty champion and his associates who when they stand up in this Chamber to give an account of their stewardship, will make it abundantly clear to all unbiased and unprejudiced listeners that something worthwhile has been attempted and something worthwhile has been done, something which confirms the confidence of the people that the legislation forecast in the Speech from the Throne represents another forward-look ing

chapter of progress and achievement on the part of an administration which has brought ·t he people out of the wilderness to the purple plains and fruitful valleys beyond. I think the Member for Burrows just answered the Leader of the Opposition in a challeng ing thought. He didn't talk about procrastination. He didn't talk about hesitation or indecision. He looked around at everybody in the House and at all parties, and he said, "It's our duty, everybody here, to roll up our sleeves and get to work and create a better community. " • . • • • . • • • • Continued on next page March 8th, 1963 Page 115

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Carillon. MR. L.A. BARKMAN (Carillon) : Madam Speaker, first of all I would like to join the others in extending my congratulations to you on being the first lady of the Province of Manitoba to fulfill such a high and honourable position. Also, I would like to congratulate the Mover and the Seconder of the Speech from the Throne ; they both had delightful and interesting speeches .

And of course , I would like to congratulate all the new Ministers on their appointments and par ticularly an old friend -- that is if any friends are allowed in this House -- the Honourable Minister of Labour. and also the new Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs, who I hope will be able to stay on longer than his predecessor in this very important post. I wish all the new Ministers well in their office and I'm sure they will do their work to the best of their ability.

Madam Speaker, although I hold no evil thoughts agl!inst any party or any individual, I am happy to be associated with the present Liberal Party and happy to be one of these "lone single voices." I am proud of the Leader of the. Opposition Party and the man who follow him. I hope I will be able to add to their j)restige and to the prestige of this Legislature, at least in some smaU measure . I will try to represent my constituency to the best of my ability. At this tune , I would 'like to mention a few facts about Carillon constituency.

It consists mainly of four ethnic groups: the French, Ukrainian, Germ;m and Mennonite. We have learned 1 to live together closely for which fact I am justifiably proud. Although the Mennonites have had a tendency to be a bit clannish at times in the past, I think we have come out of this condition and we are now happy to associate ourselves more freely with other groups. Some of the pro- blems and immediate needs of Carillon constituency are mainly these: The completion of a bridge in the far western part of the constituency -- and I'm sure my honourable members have heard of this one before.

And of course, more roads and access roads to connect the western and eastern constituency to the southeastern Manitoba and thereby more directly to all of Mani- toba. In the eastern part of Carillon constituency, around Woodridge, St. Labre and other areas, many severe poverty problems exist. Some families are not earning more than $400 a year, plus their family allowance . I hope a solution can be found soon, because many of these people are sincere , but almost totally unable to help themselves .

I was very happy to see that the Committee on Manitoba's Economic Future has concluded its studies in means and ways of providing more employment soon for citizens of Manitoba by planning our economic future over the years ahead. I hope the government will always keep in mind that extention of Manitoba in dustries must definiteiy take place in lesser populated, rural and urban areas as well as in the larger centres . I believe towns and villages like Grunthal, St. Pierre , and St.

Malo, and if I may mention Steinbach, in my constituency are on the right path toward progress in establish ing more jobs and opportunity and also for small businesses. Madam Speaker, many residents of Carillon constituency are making their living through mixed farming. You will see some of the finest herds of dairy and beef cattle and large flocks of poultry in this area. I was most happy to hear that there are intentions of amending the Manitoba Agriculture Credit Act to provide for the granting of loans to beef cattle producers. This is

an Act long overdue and should be pressed for immediately. In my constituency where some of the land is not suitable and not equitable for other types of loans , this Act will indeed be welcome . I find discontent in most parts of my constituency whenever the Red River Flood way is mentioned. Whether this is only due to the manner in which the financial arrangement with the Federal Government were made, or whether my constituents do not grasp the need for this project, or whether it is due to the huge expenditure involved, I do not know.

It will be a long time, Madam Speaker, before we will be able to do too much for our physically handicap ped children and adults. Also , our rehabilitation program facilities to handle these conditions are outdated. This financial burden should definitely be borne by the province and not the municipality. We, as a province, should not be afraid to take full steps to alleviate some of this unnecessary suffering that is taking place today by patients themselves and by the patient's parents and friends.

While I realize that this has to be done with caution and patience , this is definitely one of our moral and religious obligations towards mankind. Therefore, I was pleased that this was mentioned in the Speech from the Throne . Much has been said on the matter of education and more still could be said, but basically it seems to me that improvement of school buildings has been duly stressed, now it is also time Page 116 March 8th, 1963

(Mr. Barkman, cont'd) ••••• to consider still more the quality of the students and improvements on the curriculum. This growth should be brought up to date to our modern times and to the standards of our fine new buildings. These two feat ures must go hand in hand, but perhaps we have all been a little bit shy in promoting this, particularly in view of the fact that we have such a high calibre of willing and capable teachers available in our schools.

Madam Speaker, I had no intention of saying too much .on municipal. aff airs, . but today, with all due respect for the good things this government has done, I believe it is my duty to point out to the Honourable Member for River Heights again, with all due respect for his municipal and his wide business eXperience, neither this government nor any governni.ent in the past has reached Utopian conditions as he tried to indicate in his speech the other day.

For the sake of the record again, from the report of the Municipal Inquiry Commission, .un controllable expenditures in the rural municipalities now amount to 50 percent of the budget, .and the rural municipalities now amount to -- and the villages and towns to 52 percent. As a result, municipalities have available less and less of the tax dollar fo r improving local ser vices demanded by their citizens.

According to the commission's report, per capita expendi tures have increased as follo ws , from 1956 to 1961: Rural municipalities from $5 9.0 0 to $78 .0 0; suburban municipalities from $56 .0 0 to $95.0 0; villages from $41 .0 0 to $60 .0 0; towns from $59 .0 0 to $81.0 0; cities from $94.0 0 to $123 .0 0 -- an average of $62 .0 0 to.$87 .0 0, or an increase of 40 percent. Not to be sarcastic, and in fairness to the problem at hand, some of these increases and expenditures per capita h.a,d to be expected because of the greater de mand by our citizens for more improvements.

But, Madam Speaker, I would like to leave this thought very. clear, that Utopian conditions still do not exist and will not until this House and the present government fulfill a lot more of their intentions towards mutually working out the problems of present-day municipal conditions. Also, in conjunction to the report of the Municipal Inquiry Commission, I could not help but take note when the Honourable Member for Arthur mentioned the other day in his speech that it was the Municipal Inquiry Report, and not the Fisher Report, I could not quite under stand the emphasis on "not the Fisher Report".

Is that perhaps the thought behind the govern ment's appointment of another commission to fur ther the studies .of municipalities ? If this is the case, the urban and union of municipalities will not and must not -- will feel hurt upon the respect paid to Mr. Fisher and other mayors and reeves. I sincerely hope that this is not the groundS fo r another commission. Madam Speaker, on the subject of uniform time, I hope that this House will go on record to break all previous arguments and let the people of the country and the people of the cities compromise. I feel this has been discussed suff iciently.

It is now time· for legislation. While we all realize that there are very many things that need to be done, and while there will be much criticism, and always will be , I would some day like to be on the records of this House, as some of the men we heard about the other day that have gone before us , and that regardless of Party, these men had all worked hard fo r the good government and demo cracy.

Before I sit down, I would like to take a few minutes to pay tribute to a man who served this House for nearly 28 years -- a man who served in the capacity of Minister of Municipal Affair s, and of Provincial Secretary, and many other lesser important positions in the Legislature, as well as in his wonderful constituency of Carillon -- a good proud Frendh Canadian, gifted with charm and eloquence of speech; he was of great courage and strong con victions, but lov:ed by all, especially by his constituents, and as he would so often say, "es pecially the ladies".

To me , he was not just a great Liberal, but always fought for a responsi ble and democratic government. I know that I will never be able to fill his sh oes, but may we all wish him health and prosperity for years to cQme . MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. John's. MR. SAUL CHERNIACK (St. John's): Madam Speaker, I would like at this time to speak briefly and-comment only on one of the points made yesterday by the Honourable the Minister of Education, when he spoke of the presentation that I had made. MR.

ROBLIN: I'm not going to suggest that my honourable friend should not make his speech, because he is obviously prepared to do so, and I think he should under the circumstan ces, but I just wanted to make the point that when a number of speeches is made on one portion of a debate, such as the sub-amendment, when we move on to the next one, we do not usually March 8th, 1963 Page 117 •

(Mr . Roblin, cont'd) ••••• go back and re-debate what's been settled, as far as the House is concerned on the vote of the sub-amendment. But in view of the circumstances, I make no ob jection to this at the present time. I merely observe it for future reference. MR . GILDAS MOLGAT (Leader of the Opposition) (Ste. Rose) : Madam Speaker, on a point of order, if I may -- this is a discussion that comes up very frequently, in fact every year when we are on the Throne Speech debate.

It seemed to me that the matter had been set tled by past precedence, that during the whole of the Throne Speech debate, particularly once we limited the time available and set up strict times at which the votes would be taken, mean ing that it's conceivable that certain members couldn't get in to debate , that we had agreed that there would be wide latitude to discuss whatever you wanted under the whole of the Throne Speech debate. Certainly if you go back over last year and the year before, I think you'll find that that was the case. MR .

ROBLIN: • • • • • • • • • • because my honolirable friend has already spoken that he is in effect making a reply to a subsequent speech. I think that really it is not the kind of thing that we would encourage in a debate of this sort. I am not going to make a big point about it; I think the Member for Lake side would have a good opinion on this kind of thing •••••••• MR.

CAMPBELL: Madam Speaker, if I am being asked to comment on the point of or der, I must confess that it has not occurred to me that on the amendment to the motion that we are now discussing that there is any restriction on the width of the debate. Now, if my honour able friend, the First Minister, takes the position that because of the debate that was held yes terday on the sub-amendment and the fact that education was mentioned by at least two or three speakers, and that a vote was taken on that, that.to discuss education now comes under the point of a matter that has been decided by the House, it's a new

interpretation to me, and i•m glad to see that that's not the point that my honourable friend is making. Personally, I would like to discuss this with anyone any time, because I must confess that I don't agree with the

interpretation that the First Minister has given. MR . CHERNIACK: Madam Speaker, I would have been half-way through.

I am trying to be aware of the rules, Madam Speaker , and I am debating tl:E amendment which deals with the "procrastination" of the government and its failure to resolve the problems which confront the people; and Madam Chairman, the reason I felt that there was procrastination indicated in the speech to which I have referred was the inability or the delay in recognizing the importance of the point which I had made which I thought would have helped the government in solving the problems of the people of Manitoba.

So that, Mada.Iit Speaker, if I am in order, may I proceed to deal briefly with what was said yesterday, when I had spoken on the proposal that the present burden of the en st of educa tion which is placed on the real property taxpayer should be assumed by the province and I suggest it should be provided out of income taxes. I thought that was a reasonable proposal, and I realize it was a debatable proposal; but, Madam Speaker, having heard what was said by the Minister of Education yesterday, I was shocked, because I too am an income taxpayer, as well as a real property taxpayer.

I was even frightened by the aritbmetical gymnastics that seem to be going on introducing the suggestion that my proposal would increase the in come tax paid by the people of Manitoba by 200 percent --I know the Minister said 300 percent, but he did correct himself, and he meant an increase py 200 percent.

Well , three times what the people of Manitoba pay in income tax I thought was an awful lot of money, and I was frightened, and I imagine others may have been, and I even felt that this Doctor Murray Fisher Commission, whose name escapes me at the moment, but appears in the newspaper, which too suggested that the government must tend towards accepting the full cost of education.

But I want to speak only of the Honourable the Minister of Education's calculation of three times , and as I say I even doubted that I had heard correctly what he had said, but I waited for the newspaper and for Hansard, and I find that he clearly stated: "Madam Speaker, does he realize" --speaking of me --"that to pay the cost of education alone - forget about health and these others --to pay the cost of education alone in Manitoba would require three times the personal income tax in Manitoba" - he said three times, 300 percent increase in income tax; we'll change that to 200 percent in the personal income tax in Manitoba.

Unless I had any doubts about what he meant, Madam Speaker, he clarified it by taking the figures which I had presented, and which dealt with federal income tax and he multiplied them by three. So I had Page 118 March 8th, 1963

(Mr. Cherniack, cont'd) ••••• no doubt that what the Honourable the Minister of Education said was three times the amount of income tax paid in Manitoba; and to support my conclusion as to what he said and meant, I find that the Winnipeg Tribune of this morning reports that Mr. McLean pointed out personal income tax would have to rise to three times its present height.

I never suggested, Madam Speaker, that it be limited to personal income tax, but apparently the reporter of The Winnipeg Tribune and I both heard and read what the Minister of Education said as being as I've described it -- three times -- so, I went to the library, which is most usef ul, Madam Speaker , and I found in the 196 1 taxation statistics issued by the Department of National Revenue a table showing the tax collections by provinces for the year 1961, and for the Minister's edifica tion I read: "That the total tax collected in Manitoba in 1961 was $15 4, 372 ,6 11; and this was broken up roughly into individual general income tax $98 million; Corporation General Income Tax $51 million; Non-residence Tax $2 million; Succession Duty and Estate Tax $2 ,80 0,0 00. 00.

So that I got the figure of $154 million . Well then, I didn't really believe that we, the real property taxpayers in Manitoba, were spending so much more than $154 million in education, I thought I'd better get the figure s because the way I took the Honourable Minister of Education's calculation as expressed in his speech yesterday, I as sumed that he meant that there would have to be Four Hundred and Fifty odd million dollars raised to provide that -- that was my calculation , Madam Speaker.

So I came to the publica tion of statistical information is sued by the Municipal Affa irs Department of the province and I find in the

summary on Page 1 that the municipal tax impositions for the year 1961 totalled $34,6 77 ,482 .0 0. Well that was a little different ; I had been talking about this figure of $34 million, although I didn't !mow the amount.

I had suggested that the $34 million raised on real property taxation for education by the municipalities should be paid by the province and I didn't think that when I suggested this that I would be demanding that the income taxpayer pay three times what he presently pays -- which is plenty I agree -- but when I took the 34 million and I divided that into the 154 million -- and I am becoming more accustomed to these large figur es -- I came to approximately 22 percent, which means a 22 percent increase on the total tax paid -- which means 122 percent of the amount. -- (Interjection) -- Pardon?

I'm sorry I didn't hear what the Honourable First Minister said, so I'm sorry I can't reply to it. And, Madam Speaker, I would point out that I had been talking, not about individual or personal income tax alone -- and I am aware that we have a graduated income tax; and I am aware that when I spoke of this I spoke about numbers of dollars , and I didn't increase the numbers of dollars , Madam Speaker.

The people of Manitoba pay "X" dollars, 34 million to be exact , through their real property tax for education; and the people of Manitoba I am suggesting -- and that includes the corporation -- take 34 million dollars and spend it and pay for that other portion of education. Let me make that clear: Instead of paying it through the real property tax the people of Manitoba should pay the 34 million out of their and through their income tax, so that the people who have an increase of a maximum of 22 percent -- not 200 percent - would be relieved the burden of real property taxation.

And the point I made, Madam Speaker, was that I was concerned, and deeply concerned, about the real property taxation because I felt that this is not a basis of payment on the "ability to pay principle", and the point I made was education ought to be based on the "ability to pay".

I do not want to dwell further on this , Madam Speaker, but I did fe el that the Minister of Education would appreciate my suggestion to him that he frightened me , and possibly others, and that he could remedy the situation by recognizing that the figu res which I have found for him and supplied to him this afternoon would ease the concern of so many of us , not only sup porters of the New Democratic Party, but apparently people in municipal life who have en dorsed, and are going to endorse the report of the. Murray Fisher Commission. MAD AM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member fo r Duff erin. MR. WILLIAM H.

HAMILTON (Duff erin): Madam Speaker, at this time I would like to congratulate you on your position. I believe you're the second lady in the British Common wealth history to oc cupy your exalted position; I wish you very much success. I would like to extend my best wishes to the new Cabinet Ministers and also a hearty welcome to our new members here in the Legislature. Great progress has been made in Manitoba in 1962 and it has been one of the most pros perous years for the farmer s I think in many, many years , with the exception of a few areas; March 8th, 1963 Page 119

(Mr. Hamilton, cont'd) ••••• and due to an ambitious sales program by our Federal Govern ment, our large surplus of grain has been disposed of. We , in our area, had a little tough luck .

We threshed thousands of bushels, I'd say 300 thousand or more bushels of grain con taining a moisture content of 25 to 30 percent -- grain in the. fields, fearful of snow, but thanks to prompt action by our Premier and our Minister of Agriculture and our member in Ottawa, box cars were unloaded at the Lakehead and in two weeks our country was flooded with box cars, all that grain was picked up , shipped No. 6 damp, but we were rid of that grain in short order and saved our country thousands and thousands of dollars.

Now, the Leader of the Op position has talked of indecision, indecisiveness -- I think that was strict first-class action - and the farmers in my area, particular Fannystelle, Elm Creek and Carman, Sperling, Home wood areas are a thankful group of boys and praise this government for it. I was pleased to hear of the new developments in our manufacturing economy and I'm sure the results of our trade mission to Europe will soon be felt.

And the same contact with our northern United States neighbours I am sure will prove fruitful, as I have had many per sonal dealings -- business dealings -- with my North Dakota neighbours . I am pleased to hear of adjustments to our teachers' retirement fund, and I believe that recognition should be made to those who spent their years teaching our children. Talk of indecision and procrastination of government is absolutely without foundation. In the constituency of Dufferin which I have the honour to represent, tremendous progress has been made, especially in roads , highways and schools.

The drainage system which is vitally important to our area, especially in our lower lying areas of Dufferin, have been vastly improved; increased funds have been given by our government and increased engineering availability has been made. This is a great boon to our district. The S tephenfield Darn the Liberal Government said couldn't be built, is already; I'm proud to say, half constructed, and will be completed in the fall of '64. This is something I think that is grand; it will bring in dustry to Carman and the surrounding districts , including irrigation to one of Manitoba's great recreational areas.

We have also just established a new ski resort west of Carman. These are a very few facts of the progress that's been made in my area and the surround ing area of Dufferin, and I take a dim view of anyone that can get up and say that our govern ment has not been progressive, that has not done what it should have done. I think more pro gress has been made in the last four years than has been made under the previous administra tion in the past 20, and I'm quite sure , quite sure the evidence before the people on the 14th of December that was decided upon . T � you.

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Gladstone. MR . NELSON SHOEMAKER (Gladstone): Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for St. George, that the debate be adjourned. Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. ROBLIN: Madam Speaker, as we have reached the end of the Order Paper, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce , that the House do now adjourn. 1 Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House adjourned until 2: 30 Monday afternoon.

Page 120 March 8th, 1963

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	27-1-8
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	27th 1st hansardpdf 8.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	44ae2863b0c20764c0e32d2ec9f4fb392b9acd9a

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).