British Columbia Hansard — Thursday, November 1, 2007 (38th Parliament, 3rd Session) (H1101pm-12) (H1101pm 12)

H1101pm-12

British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)

Third Session, 38th Parliament OFFICIAL REPORT OF DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY (HANSARD) Thursday, November 1, 2007 Afternoon Sitting Volume 23, Number 12 THE HONOURABLE BILL BARISOFF, SPEAKER ISSN 0709-1281

PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871) LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR His Honour the Honourable Steven L. Point, OBC THIRD SESSION, 38TH PARLIAMENT SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Bill Barisoff EXECUTIVE COUNCIL Premier and President of the Executive Council ............................................................................................................Hon. Gordon Campbell Minister of State for Intergovernmental Relations .......................................................................................................... Hon.

John van Dongen Deputy Premier and Minister of Education and Minister Responsible for Early Learning and Literacy...................... Hon. Shirley Bond Minister of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation ........................................................................................................ Hon. Michael de Jong Minister of Advanced Education and Minister Responsible for Research and Technology ........................................... Hon.

Murray Coell Minister of Agriculture and Lands.......................................................................................................................................................Hon. Pat Bell Attorney General and Minister Responsible for Multiculturalism............................................................................... Hon. Wally Oppal, QC Minister of Children and Family Development ................................................................................................................Hon.

Tom Christensen Minister of State for Childcare ........................................................................................................................................................Hon. Linda Reid Minister of Community Services and Minister Responsible for Seniors’ and Women’s Issues........................................... Hon. Ida Chong Minister of Economic Development and Minister Responsible for the Asia-Pacific Initiative and the Olympics.................Hon.

Colin Hansen Minister of Employment and Income Assistance ...........................................................................................................Hon. Claude Richmond Minister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources .......................................................................................................Hon. Richard Neufeld Minister of State for Mining......................................................................................................................................................Hon.

Kevin Krueger Minister of Environment and Minister Responsible for Water Stewardship and Sustainable Communities ...............Hon. Barry Penner Minister of Finance.......................................................................................................................................................................Hon. Carole Taylor Minister of Forests and Range and Minister Responsible for Housing ............................................................................. Hon.

Rich Coleman Minister of Health ......................................................................................................................................................................Hon. George Abbott Minister of Labour and Citizens’ Services ......................................................................................................................................Hon. Olga Ilich Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General................................................................................................................................Hon.

John Les Minister of Small Business and Revenue and Minister Responsible for Regulatory Reform............................................ Hon. Rick Thorpe Minister of Tourism, Sport and the Arts ......................................................................................................................................Hon. Stan Hagen Minister of State for ActNow B.C. ............................................................................................................................................ Hon.

Gordon Hogg Minister of Transportation...........................................................................................................................................................Hon.

Kevin Falcon LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Leader of the Official Opposition .........................................................................................................................................................Carole James Deputy Speaker ....................................................................................................................................................................................Sindi Hawkins Assistant Deputy Speaker.....................................................................................................................................................................Sue Hammell Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole.................................................................................................................................................

Harry Bloy Clerk of the Legislative Assembly .........................................................................................................................E. George MacMinn, OBC, QC Clerk Assistant.........................................................................................................................................................................................Robert Vaive Clerk Assistant and Law Clerk .......................................................................................................................................................Ian D.

Izard, QC Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Committees ....................................................................................................................................... Craig H. James Clerk Assistant and Committee Clerk ..........................................................................................................................................Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sergeant-at-Arms............................................................................................................................................................................. A.A.

Humphreys Director, Hansard Services ...................................................................................................................................................................Jo-Anne Kern Legislative Librarian ..................................................................................................................................................................................Jane Taylor Legislative Comptroller...............................................................................................................................................................................Dan Arbic

Party Standings: Liberal 46; New Democratic 33 ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS Abbott, Hon. George (L) .................................................................... Shuswap Austin, Robin (NDP)............................................................................. Skeena Bains, Harry (NDP).................................................................. Surrey-Newton Barisoff, Hon. Bill (L)..........................................Penticton–Okanagan Valley Bell, Hon.

Pat (L) .............................................................Prince George North Bennett, Bill (L) ........................................................................ East Kootenay Black, Iain (L) ............................................................ Port Moody–Westwood Bloy, Harry (L)................................................................................Burquitlam Bond, Hon. Shirley (L).....................................Prince George–Mount Robson Brar, Jagrup (NDP).....................................................Surrey–Panorama Ridge Campbell, Hon.

Gordon (L) .........................................Vancouver–Point Grey Cantelon, Ron (L)..............................................................Nanaimo-Parksville Chong, Hon. Ida (L) .................................................... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Chouhan, Raj (NDP) ...........................................................Burnaby-Edmonds Christensen, Hon. Tom (L) ................................................. Okanagan-Vernon Chudnovsky, David (NDP) ......................................... Vancouver-Kensington Coell, Hon.

Murray (L) .....................................Saanich North and the Islands Coleman, Hon. Rich (L)...........................................Fort Langley–Aldergrove Conroy, Katrine (NDP) .......................................... West Kootenay–Boundary Coons, Gary (NDP) ....................................................................... North Coast Cubberley, David (NDP)............................................................Saanich South de Jong, Hon.

Michael (L) ...................................Abbotsford–Mount Lehman Dix, Adrian (NDP) .........................................................Vancouver-Kingsway Evans, Corky (NDP).................................................................Nelson-Creston Falcon, Hon. Kevin (L) .......................................................

Surrey-Cloverdale Farnworth, Mike (NDP) ...............................Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain Fleming, Rob (NDP) ..............................................................Victoria-Hillside Fraser, Scott (NDP) ..............................................................Alberni-Qualicum Gentner, Guy (NDP).......................................................................Delta North Hagen, Hon. Stan (L) ................................................................ Comox Valley Hammell, Sue (NDP) ................................................... Surrey–Green Timbers Hansen, Hon.

Colin (L) ..................................................Vancouver-Quilchena Hawes, Randy (L).......................................................... Maple Ridge–Mission Hawkins, Sindi (L) ............................................................... Kelowna-Mission Hayer, Dave S. (L) ................................................................ Surrey-Tynehead Hogg, Hon.

Gordon (L).....................................................Surrey–White Rock Horgan, John (NDP)......................................................Malahat–Juan de Fuca Horning, Al (L)........................................................... Kelowna–Lake Country Ilich, Hon. Olga (L)...............................................................Richmond Centre James, Carole (NDP).......................................................Victoria–Beacon Hill Jarvis, Daniel (L)..................................................

North Vancouver–Seymour Karagianis, Maurine (NDP) ........................................... Esquimalt-Metchosin Krog, Leonard (NDP)......................................................................... Nanaimo Krueger, Hon. Kevin (L) .....................................Kamloops–North Thompson Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP)........................... Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Lali, Harry (NDP)........................................................................

Yale-Lillooet Lee, Richard T. (L)....................................................................Burnaby North Lekstrom, Blair (L).............................................................. Peace River South Les, Hon. John (L)............................................................... Chilliwack-Sumas Macdonald, Norm (NDP).................................... Columbia River–Revelstoke MacKay, Dennis (L)....................................................

Bulkley Valley–Stikine Mayencourt, Lorne (L).......................................................Vancouver-Burrard McIntyre, Joan (L).................................................West Vancouver–Garibaldi Neufeld, Hon. Richard (L) .................................................. Peace River North Nuraney, John (L).............................................................Burnaby-Willingdon Oppal, Hon. Wally, QC (L).......................................... Vancouver-Fraserview Penner, Hon. Barry (L)...........................................................

Chilliwack-Kent Polak, Mary (L) ....................................................................................Langley Puchmayr, Chuck (NDP)...................................................... New Westminster Ralston, Bruce (NDP) ............................................................. Surrey-Whalley Reid, Hon. Linda (L) ................................................................ Richmond East Richmond, Hon. Claude (L).............................................................

Kamloops Robertson, Gregor (NDP) ................................................Vancouver-Fairview Roddick, Valerie (L).......................................................................Delta South Routley, Doug (NDP)..................................................... Cowichan-Ladysmith Rustad, John (L) ........................................................

Prince George–Omineca Sather, Michael (NDP).........................................Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Simons, Nicholas (NDP) ...................................Powell River–Sunshine Coast Simpson, Bob (NDP)..................................................................Cariboo North Simpson, Shane (NDP) ....................................................Vancouver-Hastings Sultan, Ralph (L) ....................................................West Vancouver–Capilano Taylor, Hon.

Carole (L).....................................................Vancouver-Langara Thorne, Diane (NDP) .................................................Coquitlam-Maillardville Thorpe, Hon. Rick (L).......................................................Okanagan-Westside Trevena, Claire (NDP) ..................................................................North Island van Dongen, Hon. John (L)............................................ Abbotsford-Clayburn Whittred, Katherine (L)........................................

North Vancouver–Lonsdale Wyse, Charlie (NDP) .................................................................Cariboo South Yap, John (L)...................................................................Richmond-Steveston LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING Abbotsford-Clayburn....................................................Hon. John van Dongen Abbotsford–Mount Lehman .......................................... Hon. Michael de Jong Alberni-Qualicum..........................................................................

Scott Fraser Bulkley Valley–Stikine ...........................................................Dennis MacKay Burnaby North ...........................................................................Richard T. Lee Burnaby-Edmonds........................................................................Raj Chouhan Burnaby-Willingdon................................................................... John Nuraney Burquitlam.......................................................................................Harry Bloy Cariboo North..............................................................................

Bob Simpson Cariboo South..............................................................................Charlie Wyse Chilliwack-Kent ..................................................................Hon. Barry Penner Chilliwack-Sumas...................................................................... Hon. John Les Columbia River–Revelstoke................................................. Norm Macdonald Comox Valley........................................................................ Hon.

Stan Hagen Coquitlam-Maillardville..............................................................Diane Thorne Cowichan-Ladysmith ................................................................. Doug Routley Delta North ...................................................................................Guy Gentner Delta South ............................................................................. Valerie Roddick East Kootenay................................................................................

Bill Bennett Esquimalt-Metchosin.........................................................Maurine Karagianis Fort Langley–Aldergrove ..................................................Hon. Rich Coleman Kamloops.....................................................................Hon. Claude Richmond Kamloops–North Thompson ............................................Hon. Kevin Krueger Kelowna–Lake Country.................................................................. Al Horning Kelowna-Mission ......................................................................

Sindi Hawkins Langley ...........................................................................................Mary Polak Malahat–Juan de Fuca .................................................................. John Horgan Maple Ridge–Mission ................................................................ Randy Hawes Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows ..................................................... Michael Sather Nanaimo......................................................................................

Leonard Krog Nanaimo-Parksville .....................................................................Ron Cantelon Nelson-Creston .............................................................................Corky Evans New Westminster .................................................................. Chuck Puchmayr North Coast....................................................................................

Gary Coons North Island ...............................................................................Claire Trevena North Vancouver–Lonsdale................................................Katherine Whittred North Vancouver–Seymour..........................................................Daniel Jarvis Oak Bay–Gordon Head ........................................................... Hon. Ida Chong Okanagan-Vernon......................................................... Hon. Tom Christensen Okanagan-Westside..............................................................Hon.

Rick Thorpe Peace River North.......................................................... Hon. Richard Neufeld Peace River South..................................................................... Blair Lekstrom Penticton–Okanagan Valley .................................................Hon. Bill Barisoff Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain ............................................Mike Farnworth Port Moody–Westwood.................................................................... Iain Black Powell River–Sunshine Coast ...............................................

Nicholas Simons Prince George North.................................................................... Hon. Pat Bell Prince George–Mount Robson ............................................Hon. Shirley Bond Prince George–Omineca................................................................ John Rustad Richmond Centre......................................................................Hon. Olga Ilich Richmond East........................................................................Hon.

Linda Reid Richmond-Steveston...........................................................................John Yap Saanich North and the Islands ............................................ Hon. Murray Coell Saanich South ........................................................................ David Cubberley Shuswap............................................................................Hon. George Abbott Skeena.......................................................................................... Robin Austin Surrey-Cloverdale............................................................... Hon.

Kevin Falcon Surrey–Green Timbers ................................................................Sue Hammell Surrey-Newton............................................................................... Harry Bains Surrey–Panorama Ridge.................................................................Jagrup Brar Surrey-Tynehead ....................................................................... Dave S. Hayer Surrey-Whalley...........................................................................Bruce Ralston Surrey–White Rock ............................................................Hon.

Gordon Hogg Vancouver-Burrard..............................................................Lorne Mayencourt Vancouver-Fairview.............................................................Gregor Robertson Vancouver-Fraserview .................................................Hon.

Wally Oppal, QC Vancouver-Hastings .................................................................Shane Simpson Vancouver-Kensington.......................................................David Chudnovsky Vancouver-Kingsway ......................................................................Adrian Dix Vancouver-Langara ........................................................... Hon. Carole Taylor Vancouver–Mount Pleasant........................................ Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Vancouver–Point Grey ................................................Hon.

Gordon Campbell Vancouver-Quilchena.........................................................Hon. Colin Hansen Victoria–Beacon Hill...................................................................

Carole James Victoria-Hillside ...........................................................................Rob Fleming West Kootenay–Boundary........................................................Katrine Conroy West Vancouver–Capilano...........................................................Ralph Sultan West Vancouver–Garibaldi ........................................................Joan McIntyre Yale-Lillooet..................................................................................... Harry Lali

CONTENTS Thursday, November 1, 2007 Afternoon Sitting Routine Proceedings Page Introductions by Members ....................................................................................................... .............................................. 9007 Statements (Standing Order 25 B) .............................................................................................................................. ............. 9008 4-H Club V. Roddick Port of Prince Rupert G. Coons Settlement workers in schools J. Nuraney Tidemark Theatre C. Trevena Whistler Blackcomb gondola construction project J.

McIntyre Search and rescue workers N. Macdonald Oral Questions................................................................................................................. ......................................................... 9010 Pope and Talbot bankruptcy proceedings B. Simpson Hon. C. Hansen Hon. S. Bond K. Conroy L. Krog R. Austin Terrace community forestry plan R. Austin Hon. C. Hansen Tree farm licence land removals J. Horgan Hon. C. Hansen Ministry of Children and Family Development renovation costs A. Dix Hon. T. Christensen Funding for Mary Manning Centre R. Fleming Hon. T.

Christensen Ministry of Children and Family Development renovation costs M. Farnworth Hon. T. Christensen Petitions...................................................................................................................... ............................................................... 9014 L. Krog N. Macdonald J. Horgan S. Simpson G. Coons

Committee of the Whole House................................................................................................... .......................................... 9014 Tsawwassen First Nation Final Agreement Act (Bill 40) (continued) M. Sather Hon. M. de Jong G. Gentner S. Fraser S. Simpson C. Wyse B. Lekstrom D. MacKay

9007 THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 1, 2007 The House met at 1:33 p.m. [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] Introductions by Members Hon. P. Bell: November is 4-H Month in British Columbia. Well, 4-H is a trem endous organization that teaches kids all about leadership, agriculture — every- thing that's really good about country life. We've got a very active program right here in Victoria and throughout British Columbia — in fact, an increasing membership which is bucking the trends nationally. Mr. Speaker, 4-H stands for "Head, heart, hands and health," and it's the motto of the organization and club.

They have a wonderful arm band that's available. I'm not allowed to wear it in the Legislature, and I'm actually not allowed to show it either. So I won't do that today, Mr. Speaker. I won't hold it up at all, in fact. Many of my colleagues are wearing green today, as green is the 4-H colour. I'd ask all colleagues to wel- come a group of young 4-H'ers and leaders, as well, to the precincts today. We're joined by Susy Chung-Smith, Bill Erving, Amy Erving, Nigel Erving, Rachel Goddard, Angela Goddard, Bert Smith, Julie Domvile and Clara Buchanan.

Would the House please join me in making them feel very, very welcome. N. Macdonald: I would like to introduce Joy Orr, my constituency assistant, who is here for a second time. That's the first time I've had somebody come and watch and come back the next day. I'd just like you to join me in making her feel welcome. [1335] Hon. I. Chong: Today in the gallery I have the honour to acknowledge a special delegation of visitors from China who are participating in the Canada-China legisla- tive cooperation project.

We're pleased that this delegation included British Columbia as part of their study tour on the budget process and parliamentary oversight. Earlier today they had a briefing by the Legisla- t i v e A s s e m b l y o n b u d g e t a n d e s t i m a t e s e x a m i n a t i o n and approval, and I know that the MLA for Surrey- Whalley and the MLA for Burnaby North were there to assist. Later this afternoon I understand that they'll be looking to find out how public accounts work. I understand that the MLAs for Victoria-Hillside, Richmond-Steveston and West Vancouver–Garibaldi will be assisting in that.

So I know they have a very full agenda. We appreciate them being here. I ask you, Mr. Speaker, and the House to please join me in welcoming Dr. Feng, the director general of the Budget Affairs Commission of the National People's Congress of China, who is leading this delegation. S. Fraser: I know they're all great, and I'll be accused of bias, but I'd like to introduce the best constituency assistant in the province. Please join me in welcoming Brenda McLean. L. Krog: Joining my colleagues, I'm delighted to ask the House to welcome here today my constituency assistant Pauline Carroll. R.

Austin: It's my pleasure to introduce Jennifer Jones to the House, visiting here in the gallery. She is a constituency assistant who is located in my office in Terrace but works for the member for North Coast and me, using today's wond erful electronic technol- ogy. I'd like everybody to give a warm welcome to Jennifer Jones. C. Trevena: Along with my colleagues, I have real pleasure in welcoming one of my constituency assistants to the House. Lynne Stone is in the gallery. I think we all should respect and applaud our con- stituency assistants, because they do so much of the work that we are respected for. D.

Routley: A while ago a cartoon was passed amongst the CAs — and probably many CAs on the other side of the House as well — where the title was "A typical day in the life of a CA." It showed a blindfolded person throwing a dart at a board covered with labels — health care, education, en vironment, transportation. Indeed, that's what our CAs have to be able to do. They're very flexible and skilled people. I want to ask the House to help me welcome my friend and an excellent CA, Patty McNamara. K. Conroy: I, too, would like to introduce some CAs. I have my own CA here, Edena Brown from Cas- tlegar.

It's great to have her in the chamber, as well as Joanne Pagnini, who works for the member for Nelson- Creston. She's here too. We work very closely together in our offices. I'm thrilled to have you both here today. H. Lali: I, too, would like to join my rural colleagues in welcoming one of my CAs who is here, Kim Sekhon. She started working for me in the summer and has been doing a fantastic job. This afternoon Shirley Rhodes, who has been working for me for practically two and a half years, will also be arriving to join in the workshop. I would like the House to please make my CAs welcome in Victoria. B.

Simpson: I'm happy to stand and join my col- leagues and welcome my CA Jo-Anna Johnston and her two great kids Jayden and Nicholas. They came down earlier this week. Jo-Anna is one of my CAs and one of the people who make sure I'm well represented when I'm down here and she's at home. Please make her feel welcome. Mr. Speaker: If your member failed to recognize you, welcome, if you're one of the CAs. [1340]

9008 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, NOVEMBER 1, 2007 Statements (Standing Order 25B) 4-H CLUB V. Roddick: Today is national 4-H day. Today is all about showing your 4-H colours — green. Tomorrow, November 2, also has a green theme, as the province will be hosting a climate ch ange symposium with the agriculture sector in Kamloops with the participation of 4-H. We can learn much from today's children when it comes to climate change. As we all know, children don't think like adults, which in this particular case is a good thing. As the minister said, 4-H stands for head, heart, hands and health.

It provides young people with the ability to learn how to become productive, self- assured adults who can make their community and country a better place to live. The energy, talent and enthusiasm displayed in the barns and show rings around the province, culminat- ing at the PNE every August, are truly contagious. Do join with 4-H as they start a month-long celebration that provides an opportunity for members, volunteers and supporters to celebrat e and showcase the many benefits of the 4-H program, which has nurtured and developed Canadian youth since 1913 and B.C. youth since 1914.

May they continue to thrive, grow and mentor others a s w e w o r k t o b r i d g e t h e urban-agricultural divide. Thank you, 4-H. It is impossible to imagine where our agriculture industry would be without you. Remember, we all still have to eat to live. PORT OF PRINCE RUPERT G. Coons: As a continuation of yesterday's state- ment from the member for Prince George–Omineca, I do want to assure the House that this is not a continu- ing fish tale to be cast back and forth. But I do have to acknowledge the opening of Canada's newest trade corridor as it continues to attract unprecedented inter- national attention.

Phase 1 of the Fairview Container Terminal re- ceived its first ship, the Antwerp. As we all know in this House, the Port of Prince Rupert is the significant piece of the puzzle for the whole northern corridor and for British Columbia as well. Even though the first ship has arrived, we must aggressively promote the development and capacity at Fairview as well as the aviation, telecommunication and then energy infrastructure needed to have the best port possible operating in a green and environmentally friendly way.

Even though the first ship has arrived, we can't hesitate one minute to advocate for phase 2, as this is vital to meet this province's transportation strategy. The coastal Tsimshian, who previously had injunc- tions on port continuation, still have serious archaeo- logical issues to address. Coastal first nations and those throughout the northern corridor are keenly optimistic to move forward expeditiously on phase 2. The new terminal was highlighted last week for its geographic and intermodal advantages in a report released by the Conference Board of Canada called Addressing Gaps in the Transportation Network .

The re- port lauds Fairview for choosing intermodal or ship-to- rail as its primary form of transport. They recognize that ship-to-rail promotes responsible development as far as emissions are concerned, meaning less pollution from dirty diesel-burning trucks. Also, being two days closer to markets means ships' emissions will be lower, an d the natural deep harbour requires no dredging that risks globally significant ecosystems. Prince Rupert port development meets both provincial transportation goals and the test of environ- mental stewardship. Hon.

Speaker, we must alleviate congestion and pol- lution in the most populated areas and look north. We must look north to the underutilized northern corridor. SETTLEMENT WORKERS IN SCHOOLS J. Nuraney: I rise in the House today to talk about settlement workers and how special they are to all our communities. The settlement workers in schools program is an outreach program helping immigrants and refugee students and their families adjust to Canadian life.

These workers are placed in secondary and elemen- tary schools to provide orientation information and support to newly arrived families, connecting students and families to services and resources in the school and the communities. I'm proud to say that Burnaby is now home to this new program. [1345] I've had the opportunity to understand the difficulties our new immigrant and refugee populations experience when their children enter our school system. Some of the refugee children have never been to a school before and face increasing difficulties in adjusting to their new envi- ronment.

I'm told by their families that after months of frustration, these children leave our schools and end up on the streets. From 2001 to 2005 approximately 39,000 school- aged immigrants arrived in British Columbia, and most of them settled in the lower mainland and in Greater Victoria. I am pleased to say today in this House that settlement workers in schools services will be launched in ten school districts this year.

The primary objectives of this program are to help immigrant and refugee children adjust to school culture and focus on learning, to provide their par- ents and caregivers with an understanding of Canadian culture and the school system, and to increase their in- volvement in the school and the communities. Together we recognize that cultural and ethnic diver- sity is a fundamental characteristic of British Columbia and enriches all our lives. This promising partnership is a basis of our future success in helping immigrant students in the school system. TIDEMARK THEATRE C. Trevena: Mr.

Speaker, last month in Campbell River has been one of celebration. The Tidemark

THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 1, 2007 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 9009 Theatre was marking 20 years of being a part of the city. The Van Isle movie th eatre was transformed into the Tidemark 20 years ago. The Tidemark, owned by the city and managed by the Tidemark Theatre Society, is a unique space in our com- munity. It's a stage for amateur and professional produc- tions — plays, music and dance. It produces the Campbell River Children's Festival and is the site for community meetings and touring bands. The theatre is used as many as 230 days a year, and its lobby is often a venue for art exhibitions.

With just ten staff — and of those only four are full-time — the theatre relies heavily on its volunteer base, which is 80 strong. The volunteers come in nightly to run the concession and act as ushers and ticket takers. The Tidemark is in a building which itself is 60 years old, and it's hoping that on the 20th anniversary of its life, there is an eye to the future. It's looking for upgrades, and the first on the list is an upgrade of the sound system, which is going to cost $150,000 to update speakers, micro- phones, the lobby system and other aspects.

The Noon Rotary Club of Campbell River has already pledged $50,000 to this, but the list for other renovations is long, including work on the power supply, increased seating and adding a rehearsal room and a set construction area. The plans are ambitious, but the Tidemark is a hub for the community. The last several weeks has seen a series of events at the thea tre, which culminated in a choral concert last Friday and a gala on Saturday to showcase the many talented local performers.

Even in the era of flat-screen TVs and surround sound, the Tidemark will likely continue to be a hub for the city of Campbell River and the surrounding communities in years to come, particularly if the fund- raising is successful and the fabric of the building can match the magic created by the many performers who grace the stage. WHISTLER BLACKCOMB GONDOLA CONSTRUCTION PROJECT J. McIntyre: I'm pleased to rise today and salute Whistler Blackcomb's peak-t o-peak gondola construc- tion project, which is now well underway since the groundbreaking this spring.

I had the pleasure to see first hand in phase 1 the amazing work on mountaintop terrain that was necessary to complete the groundwork in preparation for the erecting of towers 2 and 3, which were just completed. Next spring phase 2 will involve the delivery of five 100-tonne spools of cable shipped from Europe via the Panama Canal directly to Squamish and then shipped to Whistler on special weight-bearing cars. The challenge of then connecting that cable across the valley from peak to peak is simply mind-boggling.

Once complete, the two mountains of Whistler and Blackcomb will be linked by a gondola that will set the world record for length and height while providing an unparalleled experience for both winter and summer resort guests. The peak-to-peak gondola, with a total capacity of 4,100 passengers per hour, will travel 4.4 kilometres in just 11 mi nutes, transporting riders from Whistler's Roundhouse Lodge to Blackcomb's Rendezvous Lodge, giving them unprecedented access to both mountains and, of course, spectacular views.

The peak-to-peak gondola will create a dramatically enhanced experience that no other mountain resort in North America and perhaps the world can offer, which is another first for British Columbia. The adventure for summer visitors will include spectacular views of glaciers and peaks as well as access to an expanded hiking trail network on both mountains. [1350] Completion of this record-breaking project, which is yet another example of the world-class engineering feats underway in B.C., is set for December 2008.

It will give tourists a new reason to return to Whistler and an economic boost to the Sea to Sky corridor. Congratulations to the Whistler Blackcomb team and to Rick Temple, the project manager, who are making a project of this magnitude a reality in our province. SEARCH AND RESCUE WORKERS N. Macdonald: There have been a number of small- plane crashes in my area that have resulted in fatalities in the last few weeks, an d members will know that amongst the tragic deaths was an incredible story of survival. Three-year-old Kate Williams was rescued from a downed plane only minutes before darkness fell.

The crash had claimed the lives of her grandfather Mr. Allen Williams and Mr. Steven Sutton of Edmonton. Her grandfather's care in strapping her into a car seat for the flight was an important part of her survival, but the work of rescuers was critically important. This involved Canadian Forces search and rescue professionals and the system in place to support them. When they arrived in Golden, Sergeant Elliston and Master Corporal Lapointe joined a very experienced local helicopter pilot, Don McTighe, and Ian Foss, who volunteers with the Golden Search and Rescue.

They went into very difficult country in tough weather. They moved up the Blaeberry River to Redburn Creek. It is incredibly difficult country to work in. They found her quickly, and they flew her to our hospital in Golden and then on to Calgary children's hospital while other volunteer search and rescue per- sonnel went into the crash site on the ground to work through to close to midnight to recover the bodies of Mr. Williams and Mr. Sutton. Speaking to Ian Foss this morning, he praised the professionalism of the Canadian Forces personnel.

He praised, as well, Don McTighe, who's done things like this many, many times; the paramedic service; as well as, of course, Golden Search and Rescue volunteers. I think all of us are incredibly fortunate to have volun- teers supporting rescue efforts around the province. In Golden, like almost all of our communities, we have highly trained volunt eers. We see these people training. We see them raisin g funds to buy equipment. They are there when people are most desperate for help.

9010 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, NOVEMBER 1, 2007 I know the House shares tremendous relief that Kate is healthy. I know the House would pass along sympathies to those that have lost their lives, and I ask members to join me in showing our deep appreciation to those that take on the incredibly difficult job of search and rescue. Oral Questions POPE AND TALBOT BANKRUPTCY PROCEEDINGS B. Simpson: This week Pope and Talbot filed for bankruptcy protection in the Ontario Superior Court of Justice. They filed under the Companies' Creditors Ar- rangement Act.

That act was actually designed in the 1930s in order to protect social interests while a com- pany liquidated its assets. You can file for standing with that court for two purposes: (1) as a creditor, to protect your financial in- terests; and (2) as a social stakeholder, in order to protect the interests of the communities in a given region. My question is to the Minister of Economic Develop- ment. There are significant jobs, there are significant con- tractor implications, and there are significant community economic development implications of this bankruptcy case.

Has the Crown registered itself for standing in order to protect those social interests as a social stakeholder? Hon. C. Hansen: That is not an issue that would come specifically through my particular ministry, but I can tell you that we have an active team that works in Nanaimo on economic development projects throughout the Island. We have seen tremendous economic growth on the Island. We have seen unemployment rates come down to record lows on Vancouver Island, as we have in other parts of British Columbia.

So while we are seeing parts of industries in our province going through transition, we are working with those communities and making sure that they are well supported. But in the meantime, I don't have a specific answer for the member's very specific question. [1355] Mr. Speaker: Member has a supplemental. B. Simpson: I think the Kootenays are in the south- east part of the interior of British Columbia, not on Vancouver Island. This is serious. There are contractors who have millions of dollars at stake, who currently don't have protection.

There are communities who have their lands and their livelihood an d their economy at stake because they don't have protection. There is a vehicle under this act that allows the Crown — this government — to, for once, stand up and protect the public intere st over the corporate inter- ests that are going to cash out their B.C. assets to pay their American creditors. Interjection. Mr. Speaker: Member. B.

Simpson: My question again to the minister is: would the minister at least engage with his staff in finding out how to register the Crown with standing as a social stakeholder, and commit today that he will send a team into the Kootenays to consult with those communities about what's go ing to happen with their future in the southeastern interior of British Columbia? Hon. C. Hansen: I apologize to the member. I actually took his question in the cont ext of the challenges that Nanaimo is facing in the Harmac mill, which is part and parcel of the same file.

We do have economic development staff in the Kootenays as well. They've been working with com- munities. I can tell the member that in the late 1990s, the Kootenays was actually a part of the province that had one of the highest unemployment rates in British Columbia. At that time they had unemployment rates in the 16-percent range. I can tell you that today in the Kootenays, they actually see unemployment rates at record lows — below 5 percent. That doesn't diminish the challenge that these particu- lar families and these particular workers are going through and, obviously, the interests of the Crown.

As a govern- ment, we will make sure that those interests are protected. Mr. Speaker: The member has a further supplemental. B. Simpson: I'll take that as a definite no. This minister will not stand up and protect the community interests in the Kootenays in this particular case. This is 2007. This Friday or Monday, Pope and Talbot will tell that region what the possibility is for their future. We need standing. We need standing on behalf of the Crown. The minister is saying no. My question then will go to the Deputy Premier.

We've asked the Minister of Forests in this case to pre- vent the sale of private lands in tree farm licence 23 in the Kootenays. We've said to prevent that. We've asked the Minister of Forests to stand up and do that. The Minister of Forests says that that company does not have the right to sell those lands. They've got it listed on a webpage for sale. I have an affidavit here signed by the CEO of Pope and Talbot, which actually indicates the lands have already sold. The lands have already sold.

So my question to the Deputy Premier is: if the minister is telling us that he has to approve the sale, if that's what he believes, then why is it that Pope and Talbot told the court that they've already cashed those assets out? Is Pope and Talbot breaking the law, and if they are, will the Deputy Premier commit today to investigate this matter and signal to Pope and Talbot that those lands are not for sale? Hon. S. Bond: We'll take that question on notice for the Minister of Forests. K. Conroy: I want to point out that in the affidavit, the lands that are up for sale are on the Arrow Lakes.

They affect the people of the Kootenays.

THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 1, 2007 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 9011 One of those pieces of land for sale is for sale for $11.3 million — just one chunk. It's Shelter Bay on the lakes — just one piece, $11.3 million. [1400] Mr. Speaker: Member, I want to remind you. That last question was taken on notice. Is this a new question? K. Conroy: Yes, thank you, Mr. Speaker. There are hundreds of people potentially out of work if this deal goes through. There are hundreds of contractors who will not get paid if this deal goes through. The economic viability of the West Kootenay region is in jeopardy.

There is a crisis in our region, and I want the Minister of Econ omic Development to stand up in this House and tell us how the government is going to save the West Kootenays from this crisis. Hon. C. Hansen: Well, it's a little much to take from this member. I can tell this member, if she's not in touch with her own constituents, that when there was an eco- nomic crisis in this province…. When there was an eco- nomic crisis in the Kootenays, it was during the 1990s, when they saw unemployment rates hit 16 percent. We have seen unemployment rates in the Kootenays come down to the 5-percent range.

That's good news for the economic future of these communities. We will work with these communities and with these families to make sure that they have a strong economic future. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: I want to remind members that we want to listen to the question, and we want to listen to the answer. Member for West Kootenay–Boundary has a sup- plemental. K. Conroy: Well, that's small comfort to the hun- dreds of people who are looking at being put out of work in the Kootenays at this very moment.

I want to point out that the person on the affidavit in the Supreme Court in Ontario, who has his name in to buy this potential land for $11.3 million, happens to be Ilkay Development, the very same developer who got the land — snapped it up — from Jordan River through the very same way that this government allowed a company to walk away from a social contract. Is that not interesting? The minister, this government…. The people are not being listened to. People are not being listened to about Jordan River. They're not being listened to in the Kootenays. We have an economic crisis. We have people waiting.

They want to know what's going to happen. The only thing that can save people right now in this region is to have this government say no to the Supreme Court in Ontario — that this cannot go through, that these lands cannot be sold. We need to hear that now, today, so that people can have some small comfort. Mr. Speaker: I just want to remind the member that a portion of that question was taken on notice. Hon. C. Hansen: The Deputy Premier did take the substance of that on notice for the Minister of Forests.

What I can tell the member is that if you want to look at the greatest devastation that was done to the forest sector in British Columbia, you can go back and look at the 1990s. You can look at what the code did to the forest sector in all parts of this province. I can tell you this government has done more to revive… Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Minister. Hon. C. Hansen: … and re-energize and refocus the forest industry in British Columbia than ten years of NDP government could have ever dreamt of doing. L.

Krog: Well, the Minister of Economic Develop- ment can talk about the history of the province, and he can fluster and bluster all he wants. But $4.1 million in taxes annually to the city of Nanaimo, 500 decent jobs and $50 million in payroll…. Hi s answer doesn't cut it for my constituents in Nanaimo. Since he seems to be bewildered by the concept of actually stepping up to the plate in the bankruptcy ac- tion and taking the right process and doing the right thing for the people of British Columbia, my question is to the Attorney General. He's in command of the Attor- ney General's Ministry.

Has he instructed counsel to appear at this bankruptcy proceeding, to protect the interests of 500 workers in Nanaimo? [1405] Hon. C. Hansen: I think if you look at the track record of support for communities in British Colum- bia that has happened in th e last six years, it has been pretty stellar — including the community of Nanaimo. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Minister, just take your seat. Do you want to start over? Hon. C.

Hansen: In fact, if you look at what has been happening on Vancouve r Island over these last six years as compared to the previous ten years, we've actually seen some phenomenal growth in employment in Vancouver Island. Last month, in fact, we saw a net gain of 1,100 jobs on Vancouver Island alone — an unemployment rate that is in the 4-percent rang e. We actually see an econ- omy on Vancouver Island that has in the last six years regained its vibrancy compared to the 1990s. We know that those families associated with that particular plant are asking questions. We are working with them.

We are looking to ensure that there is a viable economy on central Vancouver Island for the future and for those families.

9012 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, NOVEMBER 1, 2007 Mr. Speaker: Member has a supplemental. L. Krog: If this g overnm ent had been work ing with the people on Vancouver Island, they wouldn't have kissed off all the private forest lands out of the tree farm licences, which has led us to this situation. I'd be giving a two-minute statement about the prosperity of Pope and Talbot instead of talking ab out its bankruptcy in this House. So we in the opposition are not about to… Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. L.

Krog: …take a lecture about economics with a government that has had six and a half years to ensure the viability of the forest industry in the province of British Columbia. I have one question for the Attorney General again, the chief law enforcement officer of the province and legal adviser to the Crown. Is he going to step into the bankruptcy proceeding and protect the interests of my constituents or not? Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Hon. C. Hansen: Now, that definitely meets the definition of bluster in this House. In the 1990s we actually saw B.C.'s economic growth go to last place in Canada.

We saw after-tax disposable income from British Columbians at the lowest of any province in Canada in terms of its growth. We saw during the last four years of the NDP government a net out-migration from British Columbia of 52,000 people moving to other provinces. In the same period of time — in the last four years — under this government, we have seen a net in-migration from other parts of Canada of 29,000 people coming to actually capitalize on the great opportunities that we have. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Members. We're not going to continue, Member. You might as well take your seat for a second.

I want to remind members that you're not to refer to whether members are here or not. R. Austin: My question is to the Attorney General. I would like to ask him if he'd like to commit in this House today to look into the bankruptcy proceedings that are taking place in Ontario with regards to Pope and Talbot and intervene on behalf of the public inter- est to make sure the public interest is taken care of and not the private corporations. Hon. C. Hansen: I believe that question was taken on notice earlier. [1410] Mr. Speaker: Member has a supplemental. TERRACE COMMUNITY FORESTRY PLAN R.

Austin: I have a new question. I represent a part of the province that economically was doing a heck of a lot better in the 1990s than it is today. The only reason unemployment is down in the Skeena region… Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. R. Austin: …is because we have more people work- ing in Alberta than here. Hon. Speaker, last week I got up and asked the ques- tion of the Minister of Forests with regards to the…. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Member. Member, do you want to start again? R.

Austin: Last week I got up and asked the question with regards to the closure of the last sawmill in north- west British Columbia, Skeena Sawmills. Interjection. Mr. Speaker: Member. R. Austin: I asked if there was any plan from the Minister of Forests, and I got rebuffed with nothing. So my question to the Minister of Economic Devel- opment: now that we are seeing the last sawmill closing indefinitely, would his ministry like to come up and meet with those in Terrace who have their own forestry plan put together by members of the community, not by Ken Dobell? We can't afford those kinds of guys.

We've just got regular people. Would he like to come up and speak to the people in Terrace who have a forestry plan and see if his min- istry can help us to put that plan in place? Hon. C. Hansen: I would suggest that this member actually sit down and have a coffee or a tea with his neighbouring colleague from North Coast, who was just talking earlier about the wonderful new port de- velopment, the container facilities…. He might want to talk to the MLA from the riding on the east side of him, who can tell him all about the mineral exploration that's taking place in the northeast part….

Just to share one more little piece of information that he may not be aware of, when I was serving as an oppo- sition member in this House while the NDP were in of- fice, his region of the province had an unemployment rate in excess of 16 percent. Today it's down to 7 percent. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members.

THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 1, 2007 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 9013 TREE FARM LICENCE LAND REMOVALS J. Horgan: If the government is so sure that they left the public interest on the table in the interests of corpo- rate profits, will the minister leave the bosom of the sycophants on that side of the House and come to a public meeting in Victoria? Does he have the jam to talk to real people about what they did in Jordan River, what they did in Sooke and what they're doing in Port Renfrew? Have you got the guts to do that? Hon. C.

Hansen: In the 11 years that I've been a member of this House and in the six years that I've been a member of this government, I've had the privilege of being able to meet with community groups in virtually every single community around this province. What I find as I go around the province is that in every region of British Columbia, there is a tremendous new optimism and excitement about this province that simply was not there under the NDP government. [1415] MINISTRY OF CHILDREN AND FAMILY DEVELOPMENT RENOVATION COSTS A. Dix: My question is for the Minister of Children and Family Development.

His ministry spent $560,000 on renovations to its fourth-floor headquarters, almost three times the original budg et presented by his chief financial officer. Documents show the minister person- ally signed off on the proj ect and personally oversaw and knew about the overrun. Hon. Speaker, fancier meeting rooms instead of ser- vices for people such as those that use the services of the Mary Manning Centre. How can the minister justify such outrageously mistaken priorities? Hon. T.

Christensen: I h o p e t h i s d o e s n ' t c o m e a s a surprise to the member, but the minister doesn't actually pick up a hammer and overs ee these projects. There is never a good time to spend money on office space, but staff within the Ministry of Children and Family Development deserve appropriate space in which to do their work. Yes, we have undertaken a renovation at the head office of the ministry — not the minister's office; the head office of the ministry here in Victoria. Let's look at what we've done at the same time that the renovation has gone on.

We have put in place the highest budget ever for the Ministry of Children and Family Development — $1.9 billion. A budget that will increase a further $257 million over the next couple of years. That has allowed us to hire more than 200 new front-line staff. It has al- lowed us to increase by over 13 percent the number of front-line child protection workers since we became government. All of that is making a difference to chil- dren and families across this province. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. The member has a supplemental. A. Dix: Well, hon. Speaker, this is an outrageous overrun.

The minister signed off on it. The documents show he signed off on it. The documents show that his own chief financial officer said they could do this for $200,000. They spent $560,000. At the very time, he was denying funding to places such as the Mary Manning Centre. This shows pro- foundly mistaken priorities and disrespect for the very children and families that his ministry is supposed to serve. This money is voted in this Legislature to serve children and families, not for fancy renovations. Why doesn't he simply admit that his priorities were w r ong ?

H e m ad e a m i s t ak e , an d h e sh ou l d n't h a v e ap - proved these fancy renovations and instead should have seen that that money went where it belongs — with children and families in British Columbia. Hon. T. Christensen: The member knows very well that this type of renovation doesn't come at the cost of operating budgets. We have increased the funding to child and youth mental health by double — child and youth mental heal th, which that opposition ignored for the whole decade of the '90s. A 90-percent increase in the number of children and youth being served in this province.

At the same time, we have more than doubled the funding to children and youth with special needs across the province, and we have engaged in the most collaborative process with aboriginal people in this province to try and address the long-outstanding chal- lenges of too many aboriginal children in care — all of which we will continue to do. I am happy to put this government's record in serv- ing children and families up against that opposition any day of the week. FUNDING FOR MARY MANNING CENTRE R.

Fleming: What has clearly doubled in this fiscal year on the fourth floor of the MCFD building is the budget for those renovations — $560,000, originally budgeted for $200,000. Whether the renovations were needed or not is not the point. The point is that the minister signed off. He found the money for that over-budget project, but he refused the Mary Manning Centre when it had a shortfall for counselling services for sexually abused children. Does the minister have more time and sympathy for over- budget projects than counselling services for children in this province? Interjections. Mr.

Speaker: Members. [1420] Hon. T. Christensen: The budget for the renova- tions is met. It is not over budget. It is a project that

9014 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, NOVEMBER 1, 2007 provides the space necessary to enable the ministry to host meetings with stakeholders and to provide train- ing space that for a long time has not been available to the ministry. It has not been done at the cost of programming. In fact, the ministry's budget has increased dramatically over last year.

We have increased child and youth mental health services by $17 million in the last year, all of which is part of a concrete plan — one that the opposition never had when they were in government — to ensure that we continuously improve services to children and youth across the province. R. Fleming: Let's recap the week in this ministry. The minister has been caught he avily severing, censoring, reports to the public from the FOI officer — without a care, with total denial. Now he's been caught funding cosmetic office renovations that are way over budget.

My question for the minister is: when does the Mary Manning Centre get your attention? Hon. T. Christensen: The sad fact is that the Mary Manning Centre and the 48 other SAIP programs around this province were ignored for a whole decade during the 1990s. The even sadder fact is that child and youth mental health was largely ignored for a whole decade in the 1990s. This government has implemented a five-year plan to improve child and youth mental health services. That has included a doubling of the budget, a 90-percent increase in the children and youth being served across the province.

We initiated a review of the sexual abuse interven- tion program. We are acting on the recommendations of that review to ensure that we have the strongest sexual abuse intervention programming available to serve the children and youth of this province. MINISTRY OF CHILDREN AND FAMILY DEVELOPMENT RENOVATION COSTS M. Farnworth: We heard this minister say that a $300,000 cost overrun is not his responsibility. Now we understand why the convention centre is $400 million overrun: because there doesn't seem to be ministerial accountability. My question to the minister is simple.

If he doesn't believe a $300,000 cost overrun is his responsibility, on whose desk does the buck stop for a $300,000 cost overrun? Hon. T. Christensen: I can understand why the opposition would like to focus on a $300,000 alleged cost overrun that actually isn't a cost overrun. The pro- ject was done within budget. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Continue, Minister. Hon. T. Christensen: I'd much rather focus on the improvement in services to children and families across the province — 9,000 children and youth… Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Hon. T.

Christensen: …across British Columbia currently getting services under the child and youth mental health plan that wo uld never have had service if those guys had remained in government. [End of question period.] Petitions L. Krog: I wish to table a petition against the meat industry regulations, asking for reinstatement of farm- gate sales. N. Macdonald: I would like to table a petition with 1,237 signatures against meat industry regulations, asking for reinstatement of farm-gate sales. J.

Horgan: I rise to table a petition with 1,600 signa- tures against the meat regulations and calling for reinstatement of farm-gate sales. S. Simpson: I'd like to submit a petition with 500 signatures collected from lower mainland Liberal rid- ings against meat industry regulations and asking for reinstatement of farm-gate sales. [1425] G. Coons: I'd like to join my colleague from Bulkley Valley–Stikine and present a petition with 150 signa- tures collected from northern constituencies against the meat regulations, asking for reinstatement of farm- gate sales. Orders of the Day Hon. M. de Jong: Hon.

Speaker, I call continued committee stage debate on Bill 40. [1430] Committee of the Whole House TSAWWASSEN FIRST NATION FINAL AGREEMENT ACT (continued) The House in Committee of the Whole (Section

B) on Bill 40; S. Hammell in the chair. The committee met at 2:33 p.m. On

section 3 (continued). M. Sather: On

section 34. "British Columbia will Consult with Tsawwassen First Nation in respect of: a. the establishment of new Provincial Parks, Protected Areas or Wildlife Management Areas." I wanted to explore just a little bit with the minister about the

THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 1, 2007 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 9015 future of wildlife management areas under the new agreement. Back in 2002 the Tsawwassen First Nation went to court over the destruction of their environment. They then settled out of court in 2004 in a memorandum of agreement with the Vancouver Port Authority. Attached to that agreement is a letter from the Deputy Minister of Environment saying that the Ministry of Water, Land and Air Protection — the now Ministry of Environment — will not seek the application of the wildlife manage- ment area over either water lot.

They're talking about the area along the causeway. Clearly, the TFN did not want wildlife management area designation. Now, I don't know why, but I'm imagin- ing that it might be that they see it as another kind of jurisdiction over their terri tory, which might interfere with their ability to manage their territory. I haven't seen this referred to — anything about this particular wildlife management area. It, of course, is a very, very rich wildlife area . There had been attempts over the years to make it a wildlife management area.

I haven't seen it referred to in the final agreement, but I'm wondering if the minister could tell me if there is reference to that particular wildlife management area in the agreement. [1435] Hon. M. de Jong: To the member: apologies for the delay. The specific reference in support of the proposition around the issue that the member has raised is contained in

section 29 in

chapter 4, the lands section, where it reflects the agreement that was reached with specific respect to the water lots and wildlife management areas. M. Sather: I see it there. Thanks very much. It seems that the Tsawwassen First Nation is not positively disposed towards the formation of wildlife management areas. So is it going to be more difficult to form new wildlife management areas now that we have this agreement? As we sign more treaties, are we going to see our wildlife management areas — new ones — be a thing of the past? Hon. M. de Jong: No, not necessarily a thing of the past.

But I think it is fair for the member to comment that in situations where the treaty settlement areas are very small…. My guess is there would be a reluctance to adopt designations that impose additional restrictions. I think it is fair to observe that in certain unique kinds of settlements where th e treaty settlement area is quite small, we can anticipate a fairly focused discus- sion. I would stop short of saying, however, that they are a thing of the past. S. Fraser: To the minister: we are finished with the questioning on

chapter 13, I believe. We can move on to

chapter 14, "Culture and Heritage." The Chair: Member for Delta North on

chapter 13. What

section or number? [1440] G. Gentner: In general, I suppose. I'm following up on a question from the member for Vancouver- Hastings on Burns Bog just very quickly. We have an operating agreement today. After the ecosystem review it's going to be operated, of course, by the GVRD, or Metro Vancouver. It's a very fragile ecosystem, and it's a very unsafe place. I'm just wondering: will members of the TFN have to receive permission before they go into this hos- tile environment, before entering, or can they come and go as they please? Hon. M. de Jong: I think the technical answer to that lies within the provisions of

section 26. G. Gentner: I take it from

section 26 that they will have to comply with the conservation management plan. But the question, therefor e, arises that there is no plan yet, and it could actually be up to ten years. Until such time, how will this be enforced? Hon. M. de Jong: I think I referenced, earlier, the work that was being undertaken pending finalization of the vari- ous plans with the conservancy and the good work taking place with the Corporation of Delta, where an attempt is being made to identify an appropriate area in the interim. S. Fraser: I apologize for the false start there a moment ago. I believe we are now prepared to move on to

chapter 14, which is "Culture and Heritage." The Chair: On

chapter 14. S. Fraser: This is not a very long chapter, but it's an important one, I know, to first nations. We have a heritage act in place that I think is, arguably, quite lacking, and I know that my colleague the member for Esquimalt- Metchosin has put forward a private member's bill to try to address some of those issues. The premise of

chapter 14, to protect culture and heritage — can the minister explain…? That negotiation for these provisions — did that involve elders, traditional knowledge? Can you just give the context of how this

section was arrived at? Hon. M. de Jong: Thanks to the member for drawing attention to what he aptly describes as a short but very important

chapter — and intensely important for the Tsawwassen First Nation. [1445] In describing the manner in which these…. I don't think the legal text and the language do justice to the importance attached to this and the work that was un- dertaken within the Tsawwassen community. For Chief Baird, the negotiating committee and the council, the level of engage ment with the elders and members of the community was, I am advised, particu- larly intense, because there was a strong desire to en- sure that adequate protecti ons existed, that there was recognition being given to the extended history and culture that is who the Tsawwassen people are.

9016 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, NOVEMBER 1, 2007 I think it's appropriate for the member to point out and pose the question, because within the community, I am certain — advised as well — that there was exten- sive consultation that took place. The bulk of it was internal, of course, but it capitalized on the experiences of the elders and other members of the community. S. Fraser: Thanks to the minister. I guess it may be a hypothetical question, but human remains, ancestral remains that might have been….

I don't know if this necessarily applies to the Tsawwassen, but in a hypo- thetical situation it may. For instance, the Tseycum First Nation on Vancouver Island have remains of ancestors that have been…. Essentially, there was grave-robbing over a century ago, and these remains have been distributed to muse- ums, largely in the States — in New York, Boston, a few different places. They are making valiant attempts to re- claim their ancestral remains. They've done fundraising and everything on their ow n.

They haven't received any assistance, even though they've requested assistance from the ministry and from the government to actually effect that reclamation process. I couldn't see it here, but is there anything in the culture and heritage

section that might address those needs for the Tsawwassen, sh ould they discover that remains have been removed at previous times? Hon. M. de Jong: Well, with specific reference to the agreement and the chapte r, I note and would point the member to sections 11 through 17, which refer to Tsawwassen artifacts, artifacts that come into permanent possession of the Royal British Columbia Museum. The member will see the reference to the one-time payment at effective date, when "British Columbia will pay to Tsawwassen First Nation one million dollars ($1,000,000) to establish a Cultural Purposes Fund," which of course they will administer as they see fit. There is the reference at

section 26 to archaeological human remains and the obligation that is triggered should those remains come into the possession of Canada or British Columbia after the effective date. [1450] The negotiators for the parties certainly turned their mind to the issue that the member has highlighted and have tried to anticipate circumstances in which it might be necessary to conclude some unfinished business, as it were, that we might not be aware of now but that might arise in the future. S. Fraser: Thanks to the minister for the answer. I'm aware of the sections.

In the example I gave with Tseycum First Nation, the remains are out of country, so that's made it particularly challenging. There's no mention of trying to address something that's on the international stage. Within the province or within the country pre- sumably there are mechanisms that are referred to here. I guess for the clarification of the $1 million, it's a cultural purposes fund. Would it be within the realm of possibilities that that fund could be used in a reclama- tion process? Is that within the mandate of that fund? Hon. M. de Jong: Yes, very much so, Madam Chair. S.

Fraser: "Heritage resources." It says in

section 18: "Before the Effective Date, Tsawwassen First Nation and British Columbia may negotiate and attempt to reach agreement to provide for the meaningful partici- pation of Tsawwassen First Nation in the identification, conservation,

interpretation, management and protection of heritage sites that are…." I won't go through the a, b and c. Suffice to say that there is no mention of when. It says: "Before the effective date…." Effective date, I'm assuming, is if this is ratified feder- ally and the Tsawwassen treaty becomes in effect. Would this have to happen prior to that, and is it anticipated? That could happen quite quickly, if it gets to the federal arena before the end of their sitting. Hon. M. de Jong: Earlier in the proceedings I indi- cated my best guess around when the effective date might be — in the early part of 2009. What this

section does is signal the desire the parties have prior to that date to negotiate the agreement that is provided for there. That's the intention of the parties. It probably gives us roughly a year. S. Fraser: Thank you to the minister for that. I thought the time line was a lo t tighter, but thanks for that clarification. Just two other issues. One of the issues that's touched on, on the proposed order papers now, by the member for Esquimalt-Metchosin — I worked with her on this — is around caves, karst land and karst protection.

We've seen recently, in the last year, some issues around traditional territories and sacred sites, a cave being the case here. It's been clear to us on this side that there isn't adequate karst or cave protection. We're trying to assist to bring that to the attention of the government here. Are there any karst land on this or significant cave structures within the traditional territory that the minister or his staff are aware of? I note there may be limestone in some of the traditional territory, but I couldn't determine whether they were actual caves or karst land. [1455] Hon.

M. de Jong: I can confirm for the member that the parties have, to this point at least, exchanged information and attempted to identify, based on pre- sent knowledge, all of the relevant sites. There are mechanisms, however, and the parties to the agree- ment specifically agree to a process by which that would be ongoing. I think sections 23 and 24 in the

chapter allow for that and confirm that they have turned their minds to it. S. Fraser: Okay, so just for clarification, what hap- pened with Bear Mountain is…. The existing Heritage Conservation Act is lacking in some ways, I believe. There are just some gaps there. Anything that was found within, say, a cave structure within the tradi- tional territory of the first nations involved with Bear Mountain was potentially covered under that act, but

THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 1, 2007 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 9017 not the space itself. If the cave itself or the site itself — it doesn't necessarily have to be a cave — has specific spiritual values, for instance, from history, is there any mechanism in here that specifically could help to pro- tect or recognize those sites? It is an oversight, outside of treaty, through the Heritage Conservation Act. There is no protection based on just a space, a spiritual space. Certainly, with caves, there's not. Has there been any attempt to address that through this section? Hon.

M. de Jong: To the member, I think he's heard me say this before, which is to acknowledge that in my view, based in part on some of the experiences he's re- ferred to, the Heritage Conservation Act is a statute in need of update. Happily, that work is being undertaken. I know that the member and his colleague have pro- vided a contribution to that effort. They have an interest. The leadership council has a formal, dedicated working group that is working with members of the ministry.

There is, I think it's fair to say, general recognition of the fact that the act needs to be updated to take account of circumstances, of changes in the law an d changes in what we are trying to do as part of an overall new rela- tionship. That update, that work and those changes, I think it is equally fair to sa y, particularly outside of the strict treaty settlement lands, will be helpful once com- pleted if a situation were to arise outside of those treaty settlement lands and will provide the additional tools that I am inclined to agree are presently lacking. S. Fraser: Thank you for that, to the minister.

That is helpful, and it's heartening to hear that these issues are being looked at seriously. Lastly, a great majority of first nations in British Columbia are not involved in the treaty process or are way down the ladder in the treaty process as far as the stages go, and essentially, are stalled in the treaty process. They have, I think, very pressing needs to address heri- tage, cultural issues and artifacts.

As I've mentioned, there are a number of other nations on the Island here that have had problems with former grave sites being dug up and that sort of thing — where again the act is still lacking, as the minister has mentioned. Will the provisions that ar e recognized here for the Tsawwassen through the treaty process, the importance of culture and heritage, the artifacts, the remains, in a spiritual and historic context…?

Is there any mechanism being anticipated for addressing these for those nations either not in the treaty proc ess or stalled in the treaty process who might be at risk of losing sacred sites or who are trying to get back artifacts? [1500] It could take a long time for them to get some of the same rights and protection that the Tsawwassen have accomplished through this treaty. Hon.

M. de Jong: I'm not going to stray too far from the pages of the agreement, but suffice to say I agree that the very shortcom ings that we spoke of and identified a few moments ago as they relate to the Heritage Conservation Act visit in a very similar way on first nations right across British Columbia. The member has, in my view, made a very good argument highlighting the urgency of the work that is being undertaken now and the broader application and importance that it has right across the province. S. Fraser: With that, we are completed with

chapter 14.

Chapter 15, "Environment al Management," is com- ing up. I know our critic has a few questions, as he indicated before. S. Simpson: I do have just a few questions related to

chapter 15. The first question relates to

article 1, "Power t o m a k e l a w s . " I t s u g g e s t s h e r e t h a t t h e T s a w w a s s e n will have the power to "make laws applicable on Tsawwassen Lands to manage, protect, preserve and conserve the Environment in cluding laws in respect of…." It talks about prevention, mitigation and remedia- tion — t h e b r o a d l i s t o f t h i n g s t h a t a r e i m p o r t a n t around environmental protection and environmental management, including waste management, protection of air quality and that.

As we know, making the laws is one thing, and then being able to actually administer and apply them afterwards is another. This is a pretty broad list of issues that will require significant resources, I would think, to do this. So could the minister tell us how it's envisioned that will occur, and who will pay for that? Interjection. S. Simpson: The actual administration of these laws — a set of Tsawwassen laws that are envisioned to be created by the Tsawwassen government under clause 1. There's a significant set of issues there to be dealt with. How's that going to be administered? Who's going to do that? Hon.

M. de Jong: If the Tsawwassen First Nation chooses to draw down on the power that is provided here and enact those kinds of provisions, they will be assuming responsibility for the administration and governance. S. Simpson: Does that include responsibility for paying for it — all the costs — as well? Hon. M. de Jong: Yes. S. Simpson: So these laws, any laws that are estab- lished here — how will…? I notice under

article 2 it says, of course, that a "Federal or Provincial Law prevails to the extent of a Conflict with a Tsawwassen Law made under clause 1." If the Tsawwassen band sets in place a number of these laws and sets up structures to administer them, how does that relate to the province in terms of the provincial responsibility ? Does the province then say: "Okay, Tsawwassen, you've established certain processes related to the administration of environ-

9018 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, NOVEMBER 1, 2007 mental management. Those are okay with us, so we're not going to be monitoring or overseeing that area, because that's now your responsibility"? Or does the province continue to say, "We will continue to do what we do with oversight as well," and you end up with a double process there? Hon. M. de Jong: I think the best way I can… Interjections. The Chair: Members. Members. [1505] Hon. M. de Jong: …try to explain this is to draw a parallel between the law-making authority provided to local governments under the Community Charter.

So if we can think of the responsibilities that accrue pursuant to the Community Charter and the relationship that exists between an entity under the Community Charter and the provincial government, in general terms, one would see the same interplay and the same relation- ship here. S. Simpson: Well, let's just assume for a moment that…. This is a pretty broa d area of responsibility that the Tsawwassen government could choose to take on.

Now, if they determined ther e are parts of this that at this point or maybe for the next number of years they don't feel comfortable in doing, as they evolve their own capacity — because it's a pretty big challenge — then where does responsibility rest for those areas where they say: "We're not going to step into that right now"? Does it rest with the province? Hon. M. de Jong: I think the member has it. He may not have offered an opinion, so I'll try to offer an answer.

In a situation where the Tsawwassen First Nation chose not to draw down on the power or enter into the field, then existing provincial laws and enforcement mecha- nisms would continue to apply and be applied. S. Simpson: In some of those areas where, for example, currently there ar e Metro Vancouver regula- tions around air quality and issues that are regionally covered — regional government has responsibility around now — what happens there?

Does the regional responsibility remain, or does the Tsawwassen Nation and Tsawwassen government have the ability to set its own rules, its own laws that would then supersede regional responsibilities? There are a number of re- gional responsibilities, particularly air quality–related and others. Hon. M. de Jong: We're speaking now specifically of air quality. I think the member has correctly identi- fied the provision in

section 1 that speaks of regula- tions or a regulatory regime, if it's acted upon, that must meet or beat. That is also reflective of the fact of the Tsawwassen First Nation membership within what is listed here as the GVRD or Metro Vancouver. S. Simpson: W e k n o w t h e r e i s s o m e c u r r e n t d i s - pute related to Metro Vancouver and the province around some air quality issues, particularly related to greenhouses, I think, right now on those matters.

I know that part of the challe nge here is around the abil- ity to enforce the provincial regulation and what juris- diction Metro Vancouver has to enforce that regulation. So if the Tsawwassen Nation chose to put in place standards that were at or above that level, would they be in a different place to be able to enforce that, which might give them greater ability to do that than Metro Vancouver seems to be having right now?

I know they're having some problems with that, and I know they're in discus- sions with the Ministry of Environment around that. [1510] How do they get to enforce that other than going to court? What powers do they have to enforce those kind of regulations other than going to court? Hon. M. de Jong: The

chapter and the overall agreement operate in a way… . I think the example that the member gave related to a situation in which the Tsawwassen First Nation sought to enact regulations that were tougher than, for example, Metro Vancouver. Is that the scenario that the member was…? He agrees that's an exam ple. They would actually, pursuant to the terms of this agreement, have the ability to enforce those regulations on Tsawwassen settlement lands. S. Simpson: Just to be clear. They'd have the ability to do that unless it contravened a provincial law under the ministry, then, that was different.

I know there are discussions going on around this air quality issue, for example. I know there are discussions going on with the Ministry of Environment around some harmonization or standards, because GVRD or Metro Vancouver cur- rently has standards that are higher than the overall provincial standard in terms of particulate. I know the ministry is now looking at some har- monization somewhere in the middle around that.

I don't want to debate whether the number is a good number or a bad number, but they're looking at some harmonization that would change that and would bring Metro Vancouver potentially into line with this broader provincial standard — the new provincial standard that I know is being contemplated by the minister and has been reported in the media a couple of times. Metro Vancouver is going to get their standard changed, if those news reports are accurate. So what hap- pens then?

In that situation, would the Tsawwassen then come in if they were at the same place and be harmonized as well because they contradicted a provincial standard? How does that work in terms of what clause 2 says? Hon. M. de Jong: Hopefully, this will help. The general proposition as it relates to these environmental standards is that the Tsawwassen, to the extent that they have the authority to create laws and choose to draw down on that authority, will have to enact regula- tions that meet or beat the provincial standard.

THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 1, 2007 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 9019 So in a scenario where they are already beating a provincial standard or a GV RD standard, they are fine. They have the authority to enforce that. If a situation were to develop where the province made the standard tougher than what exists in the Tsawwassen First Nation regulation, two things would happen. First of all, there's an obligation on the province to consult with the Tsawwassen First Nation. We'd have to notify them and talk wi th them about the changes.

Ultimately, pursuant to these provisions, the Tsawwassen themselves would have to bring their regulation into line so that they were once again meeting or beating that provincial standard. Hopefully, that helps the member in terms of ex- plaining the interplay between the two jurisdictions. [1515] S. Simpson: I'm going to move to "Environmental assessment," I think. I kind of understand it. In the environmental assessment process that currently exists…. I know that clause 3 talks about environmental processes and then moves on to a more detailed discussion of environmental assessment.

There were changes made in 2002 to the environmental assessment process regulations, which changed the role for first nations. What it did is a couple of things that immediately come to mind. One is that it took out the project com- mittees which were part of any environmental assess- ment and in which first nations who were within those areas had a seat. They were entitled to a seat in those processes at that time. Those committees went by the wayside, and first nations now have been dealt with, in large part, as a stakeholder in much the same way that others have been dealt with as stakeholders.

I know I've had concerns raised to me about that around some projects in the province. Could the minis- ter tell us what's going to change in terms of the rela- tionship that the Tsawwassen will have around their participation in environmental assessments that may impact them, either on their lands or around adjacent lands, which is more likely to be the case? I'm thinking about port development and those kinds of things. Those will also be harmonized, because they'll be federal-provincial. They'll be harmonized environmental assessments.

But either on the harmo- nized or, at least at this point, on a provincial environ- mental assessment, how is thei r role going to be differ- ent in terms of their ability to influence or have input than it would be currently as a first nation? Hon. M. de Jong: I think the big difference in terms of status is that the Tsawwassen First Nation, pursuant to the provisions of this agreement, will have a guaranteed right of involvement that cannot be altered statutorily. Now, how that plays out in terms of practical involvement may well look a lot like local government involvement.

But the difference will be that by virtue of its presence in this agreement, that right to be involved in the process is guaranteed and cannot be statutorily altered. S. Simpson: With that involvement in the process — and maybe we'll talk a little bit about some of the specific roles they get to play — one of the things that used to occur, and I don't believe it necessarily occurs any longer, is that first nations….

There often would be — particularly around significant projects or develop- ments where an environmental assessment was of a significant nature — some financial support provided to allow a first nation to do the assessments they needed to do from a technical or scientific point of view to ensure that their interests were being consid- ered and that they had the appropriate information to be able to represent their interests. Is there any expectation here in this agreement that there would be that support, or would it be up to the Tsawwassen to provide those resources for themselves? [1520] Hon.

M. de Jong: Primarily, the resources would be drawn from the fiscal financing agreement. The other significant point to be made is that to the extent that there are other funding sources of general application available, nothing in th e agreement precludes the Tsawwassen First Nation from also accessing or applying to access any additional funding that might be available on a general basis. S. Simpson: This is a bit of a flyer. I'm not even sure that I've got this one right. Let me see if I can put out the question, and maybe the minister will get it right.

Local governments have a role that they get to play in an environmental assess ment. They generally come and bring their own resources to the table as a local gov- ernment and make their own case. They have their staff. They do all those things. Delta, for example, will make its own case, bring its own staff, hire its own consultants or whatever, if it needs to engage in a discussion around an environmental assessment. First nations, other bands often would come.

They may not have that capacity, and they will seek and sometimes may be successful in getting some intervener dollars or resources, whether they're federal or provin- cial, to help them to build their case. For now, is the Tsawwassen band going to be viewed as a local government that has the involvement of a local government, which is different than a first nation but will be seen to then have to carry the can for itself? Or will it seen as a first nation that may be able to access those other r e s o u r c e s ?

W h e r e d o e s i t f a l l i n t h i s n o w t h a t i t h a s t h i s new, unique status among first nations? Hon. M. de Jong: They certainly enjoy a status, pursuant to this agreement, that is significant and a right to participate that is guaranteed. They certainly, pursuant to this agreement, have access to the provi- sions and resources contained within the fiscal financ- ing agreement. Beyond that, as the member correctly points out, there may be funding made available from time to time in a general way, be it to first nations or to communi- ties generally. This agreement cannot be raised by

9020 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, NOVEMBER 1, 2007 o t h e r s o r b y g o v e r n m e n t a s r e p r e s e n t i n g a n i m p e d i - ment to the Tsawwassen First Nation to apply for those additional resources that might be available to other communities. So it's a hybrid. Obviously, they enjoy a status that is different, but they are not to be penalized for that status. S. Simpson: Just so I'm clear.

The status they have here as a level or a form of government for themselves — that is, the Tsawwassen government — is a status that is unique to them and to the Nisga'a and to others in the future, once this is approved. So they will have that. Any other opportunities afforded to first nations or resources that may be made available to first nations around environment or, I assume, around other areas…. They can avail themselves of those opportunities as well. Nothing changes around their ability to avail themselves of those resource s in addition to whatever this agreement affords them. [1525] Hon.

M. de Jong: Yes, the authority for the proposi- tion I've advanced is actual ly contained in

section 36 of "General Provisions," which I think is

chapter 2 of the agreement. S. Simpson: One of the issues around environmental assessment that I'll be interested to know is whether the Tsawwassen band will be able to be a full participant in the development of the terms of reference or criteria for any environmental assessment. I know sometimes the criticism is around the brea dth of the assessments that happen and whether they incorporate all of the issues that interested parties believe should be incorporated.

Developing those terms of reference becomes an important part of making sure that an environmental assessment is as comprehens ive as need be, and that's not necessarily afforded to groups easily. Will the Tsawwassen band have a role in developing the terms of reference criteria, those things for assessments, that they are of the view are eith er on their lands or that impact them? Hon. M. de Jong: I think there are two parts to the answer. With respect to the Tsawwassen settlement lands themselves, of course, the Tsawwassen have broad law-making authority.

Assuming they set provi- sions that meet or beat a provincial standard, they would determine that and have broad authority. Outside of that, of course, they have the guaranteed right of participation, and that would be consistent with the mechanisms by which local governments gen- erally participate. The member is right that this tends to evolve and change and so metimes is particular to a specific project. Their righ ts in that respect would equate with those of other local governments. S. Simpson: I just want to move to

article 9. My reading of

article 9 is that for any project that proceeds and that has any part of the project on Tsawwassen lands, the Tsawwassen have a veto. [K. Whittred in the chair.] Hon. M. de Jong: That's about the size of it, yeah. [1530] S. Simpson: I want to inquire a little bit about how broad that might be in terms of what's considered "on the lands." If the Tsawwassen government can make the case that this project that is happening has a material impact on their lands, a real impact on their treaty lands, does that then invoke their ability to veto, or does the project have to actually occur on their lands? Hon.

M. de Jong: If I understand the member's exam- ple correctly, I don't believe that situation would trigger this section. It would trigger others but not this section. S. Simpson: Under "Environmental emergencies,"

article 11 says: "As the owner of, or decision-maker in respect of, Tsawwassen Lands, Tsawwassen First Nation has responsibility for the prevention of, preparedness for, timely response to and re covery from Environmental Emergencies that originate on Tsawwassen Lands." Will they be expected to have that full capacity to be able to deal with those emergencies? I know it does say further on down that others — the government; the province, the federal government or local governments, presumably — c a n c o m e o n a n d d e a l w i t h t h i n g s i f they're not being dealt with.

If there's a problem or if it's a bigger issue than Tsawwassen can deal with them- selves, others can come in and help to do the job. But is it then expected that they will have all that capacity to do that, whether it's spill kits, equipment — all of those things? Hon. M. de Jong: I'm not sure what I can add to the progression that exists from sections 11 to 14. It does set out that primary responsibility on Tsawwassen lands will be with the Tsawwassen First Nation. If there's a situation in which something is not being dealt with, then the Crown can step in.

Probably in the short te rm the most important pro- vision is

section 14, which contemplates the negotiation of an agreement that would take account of what I think the member was pointing out, which is the time that would be necessary to develop the capacity. Probably, in some cases, a decision would be made simply to contract out for certain services. That is what I think is contemplated here. I don't know that the Tsawwassen would have the means or the interest in immediately developing a full suite of emergency pre- paredness, from hazmat teams to one thing or another. [1535]

Section 14 says: "All right, then, let's sit down and hash out an agreement that says how we're going to re- spond." I think some of that work has already taken place, and it's certainly part of the master agreement discussions that are taking place with the corporation of Delta. S. Simpson: This particular section…. I think it's always important for any jurisdiction, but here, of

THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 1, 2007 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 9021 course, being next door to Deltaport and all of the ac- tivities that go on at Deltap ort, the possibility for a sig- nificant accident or problem from Deltaport is always there. I'm sure they work ha rd to make sure they don't have those accidents, but sometimes they happen. Would Deltaport, then, be part of this discussion as well — the port authority? Would they be reasonably expected to be part of that? What's their relationship around this kind of emergency preparedness, as a federal entity?

Or are they just re presented by the federal gov- ernment in those discussions around Tsawwassen's rights and authority to be prepared to deal with something that might happen out of Deltaport? Hon. M. de Jong: I think the answer to the question is no. This relates exclusively to treaty settlement lands and defines those obligations. There are protocols that exist insofar as the port. The member is right. The port is high-end industrial acti vity, handling a variety of goods, and therefore, there are protocols in place.

The point I take from the member's question, how- ever, is that as the Tsawwassen make decisions around the use of Tsawwassen settlement lands, treaty lands, they will have to be cognizant of the potential for accident, depending on the decisions they make and what use they make of those lands. That may lend itself to part- nerships with a variety of third parties. I think much of that will depend on some of the decisions they make about how they're going to use their land. S. Simpson: I appreciate that this deals with what happens on treaty lands, on settlement lands.

The reason I raise the question of the port, as well, is because the reality certainly could be that an accident or an incident out of Deltap ort could very easily cause an environmental emergency on treaty lands pretty quickly, depending on what the nature of that was. If you had a ship that starte d spilling oil or whatever, you'd create a problem on treaty lands pretty quickly. If that's the case, then any response….

What the minister, I think, is saying is that any arrangement that needs to be m a d e i s t h e n o n e t h a t Tsawwassen is going to have to negotiate itself with the Vancouver Port Authority on how that works and what those protocols are. Will that be a matter be- tween Tsawwassen and the port authority? Or does the federal government play a role there or the prov- ince or what? Hon. M. de Jong: The option to negotiate such agreements, obviously, exis ts and is contemplated under the agreement.

I'm no t sure the example was the greatest one because, of course, there's a whole series of other obligations and protocols that would apply and visit upon the agency responsible for that kind of environmental accident. But the observation that the Tsawwassen would have the option…. There's nothing to preclude them from doing that. Then they could pursue that with the port or any other agency. [1540] G. Gentner: Excuse this sort of mishmash approach here. I've tried to identify where to raise these ques- tions, and under the general heading of environment, I feel, is probably the area to do so.

Correct me if I've missed something earlier in a discussion on this. I'm intrigued with…. Recent legislation a few years back was, I'd have to call it, the downloading of responsibility of streamside protection to local gov- ernment. Regarding that, now that the onus has been on the municipalities to create their own streamside protection, there is, I unde rstand, a riparian habitat act engaged through — or that would evolve from — the province. How does that work in conjunction, through this treaty? Hon. M. de Jong: I think I'm going to need to clar- ify from the member.

Are we talking about law-making authorities on the treaty settlement lands or some other portion of lands that are referred to in the agreement? G. Gentner: It's the treaty settlement lands in par- ticular, and the expanding areas as well. Everything from the ditches and slough s to the intertidal zones would be, it is my understanding, under the umbrella of recent legislation. Hon. M. de Jong: It must be a good question, because we've had a bit of a discussion over here.

The best advice and information I can give to the member is that, as the provisions of the agreemen t operate, the provincial legislation would apply. G. Gentner: Okay. You know, I don't want to get into a discussion yet into what the difference between the local government and the TFN is. [1545] It's inherent upon the TFN, if I have this correct, to create their own laws regarding streamside protection within that zone. Is that not correct? If not, it defaults to provincial legislation. Hon.

M. de Jong: It is the relationship that logically exists between riparian zones and streamside protection and fish habitat that leads me to the conclusion, at this point, that the Tsawwassen First Nation would not, by virtue of this agreement, have the authority to make the kinds of streamside protection regulations that we are talking about. Trying to cross-check that information. If I receive an opinion that differs from that, I'll pass it along to the member and the committee here. G. Gentner: Therefore, if the province's legislation overlooks the TFN on the riparian side, who manages it?

Who is responsible, liable, and finances any conser- vation on the riparian side? Hon. M. de Jong: As a general rule, responsibility for enforcement on Tsawwassen treaty settlement lands would accrue to the Tsawwassen First Nation government.

9022 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, NOVEMBER 1, 2007 G. Gentner: Well, now I'm confused. If it's up to the TFN to monitor and finance, and yet it's the provincial legislation…. This is significantly different than, let's say, local government, where local government assumes responsibility through its own bylaws. Since there's no bylaw here that governs streamside protec- tion, it's the province that takes that responsibility. But when it comes down to the maintenance, etc., it seems to me, if I have this correct, it's going to default onto the TFN. I just want to make sure I've got that. [1550] Hon.

M. de Jong: I think I have added to the confu- sion here, and I apologize for that. I think the way this will operate practically is that the Tsawwassen will have authority, obviously, to manage their lands. That do es not, however, preclude a provincial conservation officer or a federal Depart- ment of Fisheries and Oceans officer from, in the case we're talking about, entering into a riparian zone and fulfilling the mandate they have to ensure that regula- tions are being adhered to or that standards are being upheld. G. Gentner: So the responsibility there falls….

Although the TFN has authority, the conservation people can move into the land and perhaps repair any riparian damage or maintain it. Therefore, the province has enforcement rights to maintain that riparian zone? Hon. M. de Jong: I think I agree with what the member has said, which is that the Tsawwassen First Nation has the authority to manage the lands but must do so to a certain standard, be it one that exists federally or provincially.

The Crown maintains the ability in the circumstances we've been describing to ensure that that is happening and to enter upon the land and ensure that those regulatory standards are being met. G. Gentner: I don't want to sound as though this is some trivial matter, because I really don't think it is. You know, we're looking at marshlands, intertidal zones rich with riparian habitat and invertebrates that feed an ecosystem that eventually provides food to the most significant salmon-bearing river in North America. This is a fragile ecosystem that must be maintained.

If I have it correct, again the TFN will have the authority to manage, but if they don't reach a certain standard — which is the provincial standard on the land side of things; obviously, in the intertidal zones it would be somewhat federal — conservation officers can go in and enforce. I just want to know: what is the procedure of enforcement then? How will this roll out? Hon. M. de Jong: I'm sorry. I don't know from the member what he means by: how will this roll out? G.

Gentner: In the eyes of the province, if there are some issues with lack of maintenance of this valuable riparian habitat and streams, does the province move with litigation, or does it consult with the TFN to try and maintain it? What is th e process that's in place here, or what will be the process? [1555] Hon. M. de Jong: We're talking about, on the one hand, riparian zones and tidal waters, then fish habitat, all of which are fundamentally important, but the point I need to emphasize is that the Minister of Fisheries, federally, maintains jurisdiction. We went over some of that in the earlier chapters.

How does that happen? Well, through conventional enforcement mechanisms. In th is case, there's an addi- tional joint management committee that provides for ongoing contact between the parties. The joint fisheries committee has specific authority vested to it under the agreement to discuss and make recommendations. Well in advance of formal enforcement proceed- ings, there are mechanisms la id out in this agreement that would, hopefully, be sufficient to head off the kind of calamity that the member described. I don't quarrel with him. The habitat is impo rtant.

It is a key part of the Fraser River ecosystem, and that's why the provi- sions that are in the agreement exist. G. Gentner: I'm not going to question the astound- ing and remarkable career th is minister has had on the side of the environment. I mean, that record certainly is there for anybody to see. Hon.

Chair, we can talk about the ministry of Fisheries, which is federal, but we have a provincial Ministry of En vironment that deals with many of these issues — the interface, so to speak, be- tween the intertidal zone and the nourishment and the nutrients that come from the land base, which is tradi- tionally a resource of the province. I guess I'm going to have to close this line of ques- tioning, because I think, unfortunately, that I'm not going to get the answer I'm seeking. Perhaps, in part, that's because of me not making myself clear enough for the minister.

Just one other note on the matter before we move on, I guess, maybe to another chapter. Quickly, the member for Vancouver-Hastings had talked briefly about the relationship with the Vancouver Port Au- thority relative to the envi ronment, potential spills and similar protocols. There are protocols currently with the Vancouver Port Authority and with Delta on some of these lands that are being transferred. One is called the barn owl management team, and I'm wondering if that is going to remain. Or what is the commitment, through this treaty process, to adhere to that committee and sustaining it throughout?

Interjections. The Chair: Members. Hon. M. de Jong: Was the member's question: what is the relationship between the treaty and, or the im- pact of the treaty on, the ba rn owl soc iety ? Is that the question?

THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 1, 2007 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 9023 G. Gentner: I didn't realize that owls would stir the House the way they did. Perhaps if the member wants…. [1600] Interjections. G. Gentner: The question was…. I wanted to know whether or not the relationsh ip that currently exists with the Vancouver Port Authority and the corporation of Delta and all players in that area will continue, through this treaty. These protocols…. They may be somewhat NGO. They're no t necessarily completely Ministry of Environment, bu t it is with the Vancouver Port Authority, which is of course a Crown corp.

Will these protocols, such as the barn owl management team, continue to exist? Hon. M. de Jong: I am not aware of anything in this final agreement or the attached legislation that would impact on the relationship or the society or committee that the member has referenced. G. Gentner: I can understand that, because once the land is turned over and we see the asphalt laid all across the beautiful farmland in this province, particu- larly here, the barn owl will be extirpated. It will no longer exist.

I think that's a shame, because that type of raptor habitat is diminishing, and it's no longer going to exist on the floodplain of the Fraser River. I have no other questions on the protection of wildlife and vegetation part, which needs management. I don't think there is a commitment in this treaty for that. I really believe this is a government that obviously doesn't really care that much about it. I'll move on to the next chapter. S. Fraser: At this point, we are ready to move on to

chapter 16, "Governance." I probed this a little bit earlier. In September the UN passed a declaration on the rights of indigenous people, and it specifically refers to governance issues in the bill, which was adopted. It was 144 yes votes and four no votes. Unfortunately, Canada was one of the no votes.

The rationale that was given by Canada at the United Nations for a no vote was that our areas of great- est concern relate to the portions of the text having to do with lands and resources; free, prior and informed con- sent; self-government or autonomy; intellectual prop- erty; military issues; and the balance between rights and obligations of indigenous peoples, member states and third parties. I note that this government did not take a position. They stayed silent through that no-vote process. I've heard this contested, Canada's stated problem with the UN declaration.

According to a letter to the UN General Assembly from the human rights organizations, it says: "The declaration does not create new rights but sets minimum international human rights standards specific to the reality of indigenous peoples. As a statement of common principles and aspirations, the adoption of the declaration would mark an important step toward addressing the deep-rooted prejudice and discrimination that has led to the widespread human rights violations against indigenous peoples worldwide." I've asked this before, and I didn't really get an answer. Self-governance. This

chapter deals with govern- ance, self-governance in this case, yet this government did not support the UN declaration. The minister cited some wording problems. What wording problems would the UN declaration have, if any, that would have affected the self-governance sections of this treaty or other treaties? Hon.

M. de Jong: I should state clearly to the member that our engagement in these negotiations and our will- ingness and desire to move ah ead with this ratification did not involve an analysis that laid these provisions next to any other international document or presumed interna- tional document. [1605] Because we are dealing with an important provision here, I don't want to take th e conversation down a road dealing with a matter that was before the United Nations — an important matter. The member says that I didn't respond. Actually, he knows that's not true, because I think I was asked in this House.

He knows — o r i f h e doesn't, I'll remind him — what the response was. I was disappointed. The government was disap- pointed that the agency that represents Canada inter- nationally, which is the federal government, was not, for whatever reason, able to settle on language with the other members of the United Nations that would give them the comfort they felt th ey required to lend their voice in support of that declaration. I think it has huge symbolic value and importance to first nations — not just first nations; aboriginal peoples right across the country. I think it is worth pursuing the matter.

I think it is worth endeavouring to determine whether a mechanism can yet exist for it to happen. But i t i s n o t a r e l e v a n t p a r t o f t h e d i s c u s s i o n t h a t w e a r e undertaking around this treaty and, specifically,

chapter 16 of this treaty. S. Fraser: I respectfully disagree. This

chapter deals with self-governance. This is a tripartite agreement be- tween Tsawwassen First Nation, the province and the government of Canada. The government of Canada said no — four countries out of 144 yes votes; four, no. One is Canada, and they say that one of the stated reasons they said no to the UN declaration was self-governance issues. We have a self-governance

chapter that we're dealing with here. One-third of the tripartite agreement refused to sign an international declaration, stating reasons that it would affect self-governance. I want to know if the minis- ter is aware of which part of that declaration, which Can- ada did not sign, dealing with self-governance would have caused a problem for the Tsawwassen treaty. I would dare to say that Chief Baird was as ap- palled as every first nation in this province that Canada did not sign on and that this government remained silent through it. They never urged the province. We asked you publicly to make a statement on that. We're

9024 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, NOVEMBER 1, 2007 at a point now where Canada didn't sign onto the UN declaration, one of the stated reasons being self- governance issues. Is there an issue here? Would the UN declaration have infringed on

chapter 16 in any way? Would it have caused a problem in any way? Maybe not for the province, because we remain silent…. I don't know. But the federal government obviously has a problem with this, and it's got to relate to treaty, because it's self-governance. We're in a treaty, chapte r 16, self-governance. The stated reason for not signing is self-governance issues, by one-third of the triparti te agreement. Where in 16 would the UN declaration have caused a problem? Hon. M. de Jong: I take very seriously my respon- sibility to speak on behalf of the government of British Columbia.

Therefore, I hope the member will excuse me if I don't unilaterally take on the responsibility for speaking on behalf of the government of Canada. I don't intend to do that. The member has a question about why it is that the government of Canada adopted a course of action that he disagrees with. I've already told him that I too was disappointed by what took place. But I'm not going to speak for the federal government. I'm not going to try and interpret what may have motivated them to adopt a course of action.

I am interested to know whether or not this mem- ber and this House and this committee agree or have questions about the model of self-government that is introduced and given life in this agreement. [1610] Let's do that. Let's explore. If the member has an assertion to make that he believes provisions of this

chapter contravene some convention or international obligation that Canada or British Columbia is a party to, then I am interested in hearing that as well. But I am not going to stand here in this House and purport to specu- late on a decision made by the federal government, which I have no responsibility and no constitutional authority for. I have already told the member that the outcome disappointed me and that I am hopeful action can be taken.

But we are here to deal with the provisions of this agreement that would give life to self-government, which would free the Tsawwassen from the constraints of the Indian Act. I am inte rested in debating what the member believes the shortcomings of this

chapter might be and whether it properly addresses the aspirations of the Tsawwassen First Nation within the constitutional context of Canadian law. S. Fraser: T h a t ' s f a i r e n o u g h . But I think it's an evasion. We've had to ask questions, as you know, and you've had to answer on behalf of the federal govern- ment on issues — say, fisheries issues, federal issues. We don't have the benefit of o

Document details

Collection	British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	H1101pm-12
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	H1101pm 12
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	44df941c2083abfb283daa3aa0d4176b1f2a2c6e

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