PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASS~~BLY FOR THE PERIOD: 10:00 a.m. - 1:00 p.m. MONDAY, MAY 2, 1977

May 2, 1977 The House met at 10:00 A.M. Hr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape 1973 (Morning) fvm, SPFAK'R"'R: Order, please! The bon. Minister of Nines and Energy. HR. A. B. PECKFORD: Hr. Speaker, if I could have tr.e consent of the House now, I would like to propose a number of amendments to the Standing Orders as it relates to the sitting of the House and also as it relates to the calling of various departments for the estimates, Committee of Supply.

Discussions have gone on PK - 1 between the members on the opposite side and the House Leader, the Minister of Justice and myself on Friday, and the following amendments have been agreed to so that there can be unanimous consent for these amendments which will last for this session, and then any permanent amendments, of course, will have to wait for another day,but these will stand into effect for the present session.

So I wish to move that the House adopt the following amendments to the Standing Orders of the House of Assembly, said amendments to be enforced provisionally for the remainder of this session of the House. One, Standing Order (2) is repealed and the following substituted, tine for the sittings of the House are as follows: ~1R. ROBERTS: MR. PECKFORD: ~-fR. ROBERTS: MR. PECKFORD: HR. ROBERTS: MR. PECKFORD: 'Repealed' is not the word, 'suspended'. Suspended. Repealed temporarily. You cannot repeal temporarily - Fine. I thought so. - that is like dying briefly. Right. Some of us do it all of the time.

SC~,~ EON. ~-·r::~E3ERS: Oh, oh! MR. PECKFORD: Monday, 10:00 A.M. to 1:00 P.M., 3:00 P .H. to 6:00 P.~1., and 8:00P.M. to 11:00 P.M. Tuesday the same as Monday. Wednesday}J:OO P.H. to 6:00P.M. Thursday the same as Tuesday and Monday; and Friday 10:00 A.M. to 1:00 P.M. If a quorum is not present within fifteen minutes following the opening of a sitting of the House, ~,r.r. Speaker shall adjourn the House until 5487

May 2, 1977 Tape 1973 (Morning) PK - 2 ~r. Peckford: the next sitting day, another amendment. The third one, when the House rises on Friday it stands adjourned unless otherwise ordered until the following Monday. The following added after Standing Order 116, seventy­ five hours allocated to Committee of Supply under Standing Order 116 shall be allocated to the estimates of the departments in the following manner: Head

(1) Consolidated Fund Services, one hour; Head (II) Legislative, hours allocated one; Head (III) Executive Council.,two; Finance Head. (IV),two; Labour and Manpower,four; Education,five; Justice,three; Social Services,four; Rehabilitation and Recreation,four; Health,four; Hines and Energy_,six; Forestry and Agriculture,four; Tourism~three; Fisheries,six; Industrial Development,four; Rural Development,four; Transportation and Communications,five; Public \·larks and Services,four; Municipal Affairs and Housing,five; Consumer Affairs and the Environment, t'o;Jo.

With the exception of the estimates of the Department of Mines and Energy and the Department of Fisheries~at the conclusion of the time allocated under Standing Order 117 (1) for each department or at an earlier time if no member indicates he wishes to speak~the Chairman of the Committee oi Supply shall put all questions necessary to carry the estimates for that department and such questions are not debatable.

Notwithstanding the provision of Standing Order 117 (1), if the estiamtes of all departments with the exception of those of the Department of Mines and Energy and the Department of Fisheries have been carried by the Committee of Supply prior to the expriation of seventy-five hours,the time then remaL~ing shall be allocated equally to th-<3~;>e cl-e~4I:,t:m~nts m-.,.d tt":.e provi.sior.s <:Jf Standi~ Greer 117 (2) shall then apply. And 118, not<Jithstanding the provisions of Standing Order (49) no member shall speak for more than twenty minutes at a time during Committee of Supply.

I understand there is unan~ous consent to pass these provisional amendments for this session of the House. ~JR. SHALLUOOD: Consolidated Fund Services,how long? 5488

May 2, 1977 Tape 1973 PK - 3 }fR. PECKFORD: One. MR. SMALLWOOD: Finance how long? MR. NEARY: One hour. Mi.. PECKFORD: One. !'IR. SMALLWOOD: One hour for the public debt. MR. PECKFORD: Two. Ho. I do not know the intent of the han. member 1 s question. If he is trying to ascertain the amount of time that is being expended on the finance related departments, - NR. SMALLWOOD: For the two. HR. PECKFORD: or agencies. Consolidated Fund Services one, Legislative one, Executive Council two, Finance two. AN EON. MEMBER: You get two or three cracks at it. ~m. PECKFORD: In addition, Mr.

Speaker, for the benefit of hon. members of the House on both sides there are on-going discussions bebveen side and the oppostion side as it relates to the placement of the Question Period in the Orders of the Day, and I will be discussing that further today with the Caucus on this side and with the House Leader on the opposite side so that perhaps some agreement for a change on that can accrue. I move these amendments, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hen. Leader of the Opposition. MR. E. M. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, as the Minister of Mines and Energy has indicated there has been consultation with those of us on this side, and my colleagues and I have agreed to these changes in the Standing Orders on an interim basis, and I would 5489

~fay 2, 1977 Tape no. 1974 Paga 1 - ms Ilr. Roberts. thank the minister for having made that clear. These orders will be in effect - and \ve must be careful that the worgine of the motion reflects this, Hr. Speaker - these orders Hill be in effect, as I understand it., for the balance of this session. And then next year vle will have a look to see what we ought to do. Mr. Speaker, lve do not intend to debate t:1ei!l but I would like to comment very briefly on each of them.

First of all with respect to the second change, that is allocating the seventy-five hours, ~ve do not accept the principle of the seventy-five hour limit but, you know, that is beside the point, because the government have indicated that they will not change on it. Given that attitude of the goverillllent '"e think tl1at this is an improvement over the previous procedure which in effect saw hundreds of millions of dollars of the estimates go through t....'le Committee under the gag rule lvithout any debate at all.

It is certainly not a perfect solution but we think it is an improvement given the frame within which we had tr work and so we support it. The other c~e, the change in the hours, we have agreed to that on the principle that it is the government's right to set the times when the House ouGht to meet, and we accent that. 1-Te do not do it with any happines, Sir, not any lack of willingness to work.

In fact there are as probably as many of us here on this side as there are on the ot~er side, and let it be noted that I have not called a quorum call, but at one point, Sir, there were not fourteen this side had \v~nted, because there '"ere not fourteen of the govern~ent members who were interested enough to show up - three, six, !line, eleven - there are only thirteen there nm.;r, Sir. \'Jith Your Honour that ~vould be fourteen. T11ere is barely a quoru..~ :1ere now. Let that oe noted, Sir, as ':vell. Tnere are 5490

Hay 2, 1977 Tape no. 1974 Page 1 - ms ifr. Roberts. nore on this side proportionately, probably as many absolutely} as on the other side. But He do feel, ~-:r. Speaker, that i:: is very um•ise of the government to force the House to sit these hours. Nine hours a day, Sir, is a long day by any standards,but add on to that the fact that be~are '"e co!:le to the House . there is preparation ~·7hich ought to be done by any member ~ho wishes to participate properly and meaningfully in the debate. It is toe long.

It vlill lead inevitably, I predict, to heated passages in the House, because all members ~vill get tired, and they will get short-tempered. I do not think the public interest will be served. I do not think the House's interest will be served.

And so <.ve do agree on the principle the government have the right to set the hours of the House, Sir, but r.ve do not think it is a wise thing, and I would ask the House Leader and would urge him not to - because these hours are in effect it does not mean that the House must sit these hours -and so I would suggest to the Government House Leader, the authorities running the government sidP., that they not r.2ke the House sit these hours. I do not think there is any need for it. The session has dawdled some\.;hat, but that is because of a lack of business t.;hich v7as brought before us by the <sovernment.

There has been no desire to spin it out, no attempt to spin it out. h'ha t there has been is a lac:\:. of busi!less. Even no1f7 there is next to nothing on the Order Paper, Sir, other than the 3 ill r . .;rhich is very much ~wr t:.y of debate, and the ~finister of Finance is an..'<:ious to have it debated, and so are lve. So '"e accept the amendment, Sir, on an interi.'ll basis. 'rle do not do it v:it:l any feeling on the L10Urs that it is the right t:l.i:J.g to do. I ~,;oulJ ask the gcverr.ment ar..d urge the.rn - 5491

~-fay 2, ,1977 Tape no. 1974 Page 3 - ms ~rr. Roberts. I think it would be in everybody's interest if they do not pursue this

schedule ~ohich I think is folly. I think it is an insanely difficult

schedule for a small House - it is the same hours roughly as the House of Commons sits at Otta~oa ~vith 260 members to attend the service ~.' of the House. Here _, Sir, we have forty-nine to attend the service~ of the House., and it is significant that even now there are only fourteen on the government side, and there are three, six, nine, t1.relve counting the gentleman from LaPoile, on the Opposition side. Tnere is a quorum. ~1R. DOODY: The quorum in Ottawa is twentv. rffi. ROBERTS: The quorum in Ottawa is 8venty. I agree. And they at times do not have a quorum. Xr.

John Crosbie has been quoted recently as saying, he was up speaking one day and there were only three people in the House, the Speaker, himself, and the gentleman who was going to second his motion. That was correct. SO~·IE HON. ME}ffiERS : Oh, oh! HR. ROBERTS: All my friends have anticipated me, Sir. I was going to say that that is quite correct, but Hr. Crosbie ought to look in the mirror tvhen he seeks the cause of that. ~tR. NEARY: That is like ~oses coming down from the Mountain and no one to greet him. ~-'!R . ROBERTS : ~fr. Crosbie has had that problem for many years, ~·Ir. Speaker.

In any event, Sir, I - you knm,;, I do not Hant to dela.:y ti:.e \·;e .2ccept tl:e change in the S t.ar.d iP2: Orders, but I hope the government <:>Till not persist in this. I think it 1.;ould be folly of them to do it. I think '<\Te ;Jill all be the losers. I am very glad finally, Sir, that the minister is going to look at t!1is auestion of the !Jlacing of :'1uestion Period. 3492

~!ay 2, 1977 Tape no . 1974 Page 4 - ms ~ {r. Roberts . T.'1.e suggestic ·n is, as I understand it , that the Question !?er ·i.od be rade t:he first order of business each day . I chink W.'1at r,Joul d help greatly, Sir. Some of the ~.: ini.s ters I ~met-.r have ;_)la:ns or have cor:unit:nents to officials and delegations <!!'..d that ::1akes it difficult for t hem to stay in the Rouse, but they all want to be here for the Question Period and t~at is good . It is in our ir.terested to have che mi~isters here f o r the Question ?e:-iod.

So I do not see a:1y reas·on ....-hy we cannot: change t h e ord er of doing business and have t~e Question Peri od> then Statements by :licisters, Petitions and <:.;hat have you . I hope that the members of the caucus on the other side •.-.rill accept that request , Sir. I think it is o~e 1vhich w-ould help both sides of the House, the ministers and t he Opposition, and the government backbenchers alike, Sir. Thank you. 3493 •,

~- fay 2,19 77 Taoe 1975 AH-1 ~on. member for LaPoile. 'fR. ~ 1 "EARY: Mr. Sneaker, I ioin wit~ the Leader of the Ouuosition, Sir. in saying that I have no hesitation in agreeing ~·lith the oro-posed cham;es put for.•ard by the actin~ government Fouse leader. Yr. Speaker, I uas trving to follow the Leader of the Opposition there very closelv and I understar:::l . him 2.nd according to the air Haves this mornin~ the Leader of t~e Opposition said t~is is not right, he does not agr~e with it. \.Jell, Sir, mv understanding is that the onlv r_ray that we can a-p!'rove ~'R. ~OBERTS : Oh,I am accenting that, Sir.

YR. ~TEARY : - the only ;.rav that ~.;e can auprove of these changes. Sir, is by unanimous consent of the House,and if the han. Leader of the n-pposition does not think they are right and agree T.oTith it why does he not just vote a~ainst them, iust say so. ~fR. Sl-f...ALL l·:OOD : not the - ~e is talkin~ about the hours of meeting, ~·ffi. • .:1'E.A.RY: That is lvhat I am talking about, the !'lours of meeting. If we do not like it r.·rhy do we not just say so - ~·le do not like them and vote against them. I am ~oing to vote for it because all it is doing is asking us to c:ork thirtv­ three hours a weeY.

AN HO~T. ~:EER: Because you like to. ~m.. NEARY: Eecause I think the Fouse should be meeting longer periods. I have said so hath inside and outside of the Rouse. T1ear, hear! Thirtv-t:,ree hours a ~.;eek is certainlv - and tl:l.e civil servi~~ ;:or'· or not. T~e onl':r thing is it is '!oing to be a bit gruelling because it will not give us a chance to well, if we have not got our homework don£ :1.0\·i, we ~.Jill never ':lave it done. And the Opposition caucus 5494

Hay 2,1977 Tape 1975 AH_.., . "" :'R. ~TFARY: have, thev have shadows, they have memhers who are shadmving ministers. So t~e t!l.ing is going to be snread out, the responsibility is not just ~oing to fall on t~e shoulder of one individual. And I have been :::-e2ding the comments over the v.reekend, es!Jecially !:Jy 'Sticky Wicky', I thir.k it is, in the Telegram. It savs r,ve are t:r"rin~ to get t~e House closed. \Jell I >·muld just as soon keep the House ooen the r,7hole year myself. I would move mv bed in her~ if I caul~. SOF E RON • HE!•ffiERS : Pear, hear!

HR. :'TEARY: And this is not a move on mv part, Sir, to close the House,I can assure anvhody, anYbodv inside or outside of the Rouse of that. But , c·rr. Soeaker, 1..re have to adapt to new rules and regulations in this House if this Rouse is going to mean anything to the people of this ~tovince. And we have to be prepared , Sir, ~.re have to \.,e prepared as elected representati.ves· of the people to stay here till doomsday if necessar:r to resolve and come to grips ,.;ith the problems of the people of this Province that are facing our people at this particular time.

And if it means, Sir, ~vorkinQ; three days a r,reet-: from te~ to el~ven ~ell so be it, that is it. MR. ROWE: Doomsday was last Thursday. I had prior consultation wit~ the ~overnment uouse Leader, t~e "-finister of Justice Ca.Il'.e to me. I could have recommended changes, I did not know what to do, There is a bit of a dilemma, we '"ant to get the hudget debate over, vle Fant to get the estimates passed. I could have recommended changes, I could have said, ~~a, ':r.

Leader, trv it this •,•ay and I believe t:te han Government ~ouse I eader ~'ould have lis teneri. to me t~e Conception :?ay South, the 0-puosition Rouse L'=ader. So there has been nrior consultatio!'. an<i ne~otiation, Sir, and there is no -,cint b. -::etting un anrl being ;~,7-r:-ocritical .'lhr:'t!t a~ainst it, hut I r.rill ';ate for it" I am goin?. to -vote Ear it 5495

Tane 1975 A..-q-3 :-rR. ~TEARY : because He - I think we should be l·rorking lon ger :.ours. : .ut one Doint 1 want to -'l'ake, "'fr.

Soeaker, before I take m~r seat, and that is, ,.;ould the Government Fouse Leader tell us now when we are ~oing to ~ et into the detailed analvsis of the estimates and ~,Then r.ve are going to debate the budget 7 There are tvJo t!l.ing on t!l.e go now - we have three things on the go, actuallv- "'e have the Throne Speech that has to l:le wound uo 1 hut t!:.at can be done, I suppose,~efore the P.:ouse adjourns, but there is a_Tl urgent r:1atter of debate as far as the Labrador Linerboard ~~ill is concerr1ed.

Are we goin2; to debate that !'lOW ·..lit~in the next day or t•vo or are '"e going to get straight into t!1e estimates~ That is all I r,Jant to knm-7, ~".r. Speaker. ~- SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MIL PECK"F'ORD : For the next couple of days-•,;e are starting this morning r,;ith the estimates, getting into the estimates per se and the Linerboard debate r.rill be called fJednesday or Thursday of this 'i7eek. Depending up en, I think, the ~inister of Finance has been talking to the Leader of the Onposition this morning, iust briefly about it before the House ~ot together.

And so we are going to be doing Labrador Linerboard very shortl;r - t'lis week hooefully, de?ending u~on i£ all the members are here who \-7ant to speak on it, because I guess the members from. the I.:'est Coast, Port au Port area right now are not here and t':ley would 'have to be back in the House - you knmv-, to be fair to them.

And we 'tvill then go back into estimates again and then again ho-pe:Eullv I ~v-ill have to check "1jith the gover.ment. ~11?.. :'EARY : will the Linerboard mill ccme up be~Reen the estimates and :he Budget debate? debate after t!ce "La;:,racinr l.i'l.erhoard -:el--atE> ~.;ill :Cave to be decided on how c-le are going to break the time hetc'-"een the estisates and the :,udzet debat:s. ~\ ~d t~:.at is dow'"':\ the rC"ad ::.e:xt \ree1--: sone But for the ?resent ~ee~ it is the estimates ~nd Linerboard iehate. 3496

~!av 2,1977 Tape 1975 AH-4 ~·:ell, ' 1r . S!Jea\cer, ur.der t~ese circumsi:ances I ~·rill vote in favour o: t'1e prcposed c!tan;2es, Sir . On an ::.nteri:n hasis, of course . ~~ . SPEAKER: Hon. member fo r Bellevue . ~!R . (ALLA!-T : :rr. Speaker, I >·rant to say a ,.,ord or t"t.;o abou: these proposed changes and ?erha~s ai: t~e same time I can talk about or respond to ~vha t t he meober for LaPoile there about having the P-ouse onen year Tound to do t~e business of the people and so on . I think tha~ is ut~er nonsense because I do not t~ink there is ~ny Dusiness done :or the oeoole ~ere in t~is Rouse.

I thin k t~e Bouse is a ~aste of ti~e for the most part . t.Je hear some excellent soeechs :nacie he re, excelle nt speecha 'Jut the~ ~.mo hear s it, 3497

~ay 2, 1977 Tape No. 1976 NM- 1 ~. CALLAi'l: ~vho hears it? Nine or ten people who sit here in the Assembly and perhaps four or five in the galleries, one of two these may be news media but - and I have heard some excellent speeches here, excellent. I have some suggestions of where they should be aired. But this is not the time or place to say it. But, Mr.

Speaker, as far as having this House open year round~as I said I would be much better off,I am sure,out in my district just having a chat to some of those old peot;>le •.;rho want someone to talk to, you know,rather than here wasting my time listening to nonsense. MR. SPEAKER: The han. ~!inister of Provincial Affairs and Environment, MR. MURPEY: Xr. Speaker, I do not know if I am out of order at this stage but the Linerboard debate has been brought into the matter as a part of the business. To my knowledge there is no Hansard covering these debates. I was in the House at that t~e.

I wonder will there be some information put forward for the House for guidance or the tapes played in this House to let us know actually what happened with the Linerboard mill and the establishment of the thing. ~1R. sr",ALUWOD: \·1hich debate are you talking about~ MR. MURPHY: Linerboard mill we are talking about. ~. ~LLWOOD: No, which- ~1R. ~1tJRPHY: r~Then the whole matter was introduced. ~~. ROBERTS : Oh,when Crosbie, Hickman and Wells brought it in the Souse. No, when Smallwood, Roberts and ~eary brought it in. Order, nlease! Order, please! Hon.nembers ~~cw t~a t th~y a.re - HR.

RO 3B~_'I'S : (Inaudible). ~1R. SP~PY-ER: Order, please! - that they are sunposed to refer to one another i:1 the appro?riate rr..anner and also the comment of hon. members shculd be, as I understand on the resolution that the hon. House l.eader is aski:1g leaYe to introduce and matters related to that but certainly not debate and not ~~traneous :natters. 3498

'- May 2' 1977 ~. SPEA..T<:ER: ~ffi.. NOLAN: Tape No. 1976 The hon. ma~ber for Conception Bay Sout~. I must object to my han. friend. I can see why he says so, but if ~.;e here continue to say publicly that ~- 2 the House of Assembly is a waste of time we either have to bring in some very, very necessary changes, which are needed,or close her up, ~. ROBERTS: Change the government. ~1R • ~TOLA.L\1' : It is as simple as that, and stop carrying on the fraud. Now the fact is there is a - AN RON. ~ER: (Inaudible) , ~. NOLk\1': I hate to interruot the han. member.

But the fact is there is a committee within this House . that can meet any time, the chairman,and committee, to bring in rule changes and so on, Are we going to go through another session of this House next year again attemnting to debate behind the curtain and all the rest? I mean the fact is the moment this House closes, or before, that committee should meet and any changes that are to come about~and God knows there are changes necessary, they should be r.o1orked on right now. There is some validity obviously with what the hon. member says.

Many peoole outside this House feel it is totally irrelevant in here, is perfectly right. Often times he It is pretty disappointing to me when I get in an elevator~for example,in this building and have the senior civil servants say to me on the way up, 11 Is the House open?" It is as 3imple as that. In this :Juilding t~ey do not e•;en know it is open. So i c is rather unfcn:ur.ate to me t~at this thing has occurred. The fact is on hours in this Rouse if we are really sensible and practical about it at all, there is no reason ~hy this House cannot ~eet the 15th. of September every year and ~et to work.

It is as SL~nle as that. ;~d then 0499

~y 2, 1977 Tape No, 1976 NM- 3 ~1R. NOLAN: go on from there. ~1aybe it would not necessitate - or be necessary to have the kind of hours we are talking now, ~. ROBERTS: The Throne Speech before Christmas and the Bud2et afte~vards. MR.. ~OLJ>..N: But let us move in.the 15th, of September and go to w·ork. Also abroad,and this applies to members on both sides of the House, I am sure they have run into it, there is the feeling that the only time a member works is when the House is open, which is absolute-nonsense~of course, as every member knows, every member, So these hours are not the most appetizing.

They are something ':ve have.- to live with at the moment. Tile are certainly going to the best of my knowledge vote for it, But - ~1R. ROBERTS: V.ie do not like it. ~. NOLAN: We do not particularly like it. But I would hope that perhaps we can take a little more mature attitude in the future and if ~ve are going to do something about this let us do it and let us not get here every year bickering back and forth about what we should do and what we should not do. You know~it is a farce. MR. ROBERTS:' Hear! Hear! HR. SPEAKER: The hon, member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, one more point before we get back to the minister. MR. CHAIR.~: A point of order has arisen, '4R. ROBERTS : ~r. Speaker, on a point of order, I am quite willing to consent to the hon. gentleman making another statement if he wishes. I have no objection at a.ll,~ut I think it should be clearly understood tha: this is a debate and tha.t the hon, gentl~man h<lS no ri ht t ' ~ cond t~~e .1.·n ~he debate IF h_e "7 ants to as~ _!~ave g o speaK a .,e . -'-'" • .,. • ~ . "' '" "' I for one would gladly grant it and I know I sneak for all my colleaguesebut let us not

Hay 2, 1977, Tape 1977, Page 1 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: forget that this is a debate, as I understand it. The hon. gentleman from Green Bay, The Minister of Mines and Energy,has moved the motion which a number of us have sooken to and anv hon. ~ ~ member may. I ·would listen with interest to what the gentleman from LaPoile (~1r. Neary) has to say. I do not want anybody to think this is procedure other than a debate,because as I understand it, Sir, it is a debate. HR. NEARY: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker, I thank the han. constitutional expert for getting up and preaching to me.

But, Sir, perhaps I can resolve the matter by putting a question to the minister by way of a point of information or a point of privilege of the House or some otb.er - I will find some other way to do it. I do not need the hon. gentleman's right to speak in this House, Sir. t·m. SPEAKER: Order, Please! The specific point of order raised by the Leader of the Opposition was to the effect that the regular rules of debate and procedure apply to the proceeding that is now before the House, with respect to an hen. member may only speak once on the motion and in that he is correct. ~1R.

NEA-R.Y: On a point of information then, Mr. Speaker. I would like to ask somebody on either side of the House to tell me or tell the House whether or not they have consulted with the media on the new hours ~ecause these peo9le are going to be subject to tremendous pressure. I think we should consult with the.rn from time tn t-i.:ne~if we have not already c~cne .so. to make sure that they are able to be - because after all, one of the main reasor.s ~cr t~is House, Sir, bei~g open is to get information out to the people. If we 5501

May 2, 1977, Tape 1977, Page 2 -- apb cannot get the information out then I believe that should be one reason the leaders on both sides should be prepared to consult with these people to make sure that the information is getting out to the public. M....~. SPEAKER: If the hon. minister speaks now he closes the debate. The hon. the member for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir. ~1R. SI.M110NS: Good morning, 'Haig', good morning. The boys are all wide awake this morninq. l<tr. Speaker, just a brief ~vord before we hear from the minister in closing the debate.

I want to very much echo the sentiments expressed by the Leader of the Opposition. I want to reassure my good friend from LaPoile that it has nothing to do with hypocrisy at all. I think this proposal as contained in the motion this morning is wacky from the word go. I think it is crazy. AN HON • ME.;.'1BER : Are you going to vote against it? HR. SIMJ.'10NS : I will tell the hon. member in ·a moment why I a~ not going to vote against it. I think the proposal is nuts from the word go, crazy, out of the world.

The choice is between that and having the governr:1ent come in every day at six o'clock telling me what time I am going to sit the next morning. So at least this gives so~e regularity to it, and that is the simple and only reason - :IR. ROBERTS : You ~.·Tant to spell that our '::?.oger'. The go v ern.':len t ..... can move a rno~1on X:i.. SI~~10US: Every day at six when the Rouse rises, the gover~~ent can decide the House is goihg 5502

May 2, 1977, Tape 1977, Page 3 -- apb NR. SI~1£10NS: to meet at nine the following morning, for that matter, by a s~uply majority. The only reason 1 r1r. Speaker, the only reason I gave my consent in caucus, and I think I sneak for a number of my colleagues, is not because we like meeting thrity- three hours a week or nine hours a day, we think it is nuts from the word go, but at least it gives some regularity to the insanity, at least we know before- hand what hours we are going to meet and can therefore plan our schedules around it.

I would like to speak briefly to the other point which the member for LaPoile (~1r. Neary) again attempts to give credibility to, that somehow the only hours we work is when we are here. ~y God, I come in here to take a spell! This is the very time I do not work, when I a~ here. This is the easy part of being a m~~ber. AN HON. ME!.ffiER: That is right. MR. SH1t"'10NS: As we move now from six hours a day to nine hours a day, Mr. Speaker, it is becoming very, very difficult to do the work that I have to do on behalf of my constituents, just to return the phone calls.

You have between nine and ten in the morning to do '.1- 1. t... r basically. That is the time you have left now on three days a week, between nine and ten in the morning, That takes care of it. It is supposed to take care of it. Well it does not. I can understand my colleague from Bell vue (:,~r. Callan) voicing the sentir1ent 1 tecause we here are giving credence to the sentiment that some- how the only time ~ve '.vork is when we sit in the Eouse J and that looks like pretty soft work. And it is ccmpared to L~e other things that we are doing behind the scenes.

I do not know about other I':lernbers but I - i!ldeed I do. 5503

May 2, 1977, Tape 1977, ?age 4 - - apb ~rn . si.:~10NS: I know that o~~er members work very hard at their job and I know that I work fairly consistently at mine, but it is difficult to do it Hhen vou have a goverP..ment majority that is completely unaware, or completely callous about this particu lar matter . I do not believe tr.ey are concerned about their ovm backbencher s even, let alone t~e ones over here . It is okay for the ministers. I£ one executive assistant will not do it they can hire rwo or th=ee or fou::- ..:·:st by a ~inute-of -Council. It is easy. Only the taxpayer gets socked on that one.

But, ~ r. Speaker, ~ he re are backbenchers over t~ere and t~ere are a number of us here ~;.;ho are =inding it dif-:icult to be our own executi~;e assistants and to othenvise continue to do our own \vork . ~504

Hay 2, 1977 Tape no. 1973 Page 1 - ms :-fr . S il"'li!l ons . And I do not know '.vhat has got into the goverr...ment 1 and I repeat what the Leader of the Opposition said a moment ago, I hope that •11hile we put this in as tentative, as te..rn-porary hours of sitting for the remainder of the session, the ~overnnent ivill only use those hours cvhen necessary. I believe that is what the Leader ~vas saying.

They will not feel that we have got to meet again ten o'clock tomorrow morning just because the neu hours of sitting say so. :·feet ten o 1 clock tomorrmv morning if there is some business to expedite, but I would hope vlhen the estimates are through and the budget debate is over the government Qay not see the need to meet nine hours a day, thirty-three hours a Heek. That is the poiil.t the Leader \.;as :uaking, and the point •.vhich I endorse very much. We are against the idea, but it is the lesser of two evils.

And so we are going to vote for the lesser of two evils.The other evil,far greater,is to have the government every day at si.'t o 1 clock or eleven o'clock tell me ivha t time I am. supposed to be here the ne..'tt morning. These tentative or temporary hours of sitting at least avoid that particular evil, and for that reason we vote for the lesser evil of having those long, unduly, unjustfiably long hours set dmm in the rules of the House. ~1R. SPEAKER: debate. }!R.

PECKFORD: If the hon. minister speaks no-vi he closes the The han. ~finister of ~·fines and Energ: 7 • To deal with the hon. member for LaPoile's question <ibout t:1.e p-cess, I do not know if the press Here consulted on it, ,.;hether the Gover:11-u.ent liouse Leader, the ~Unister of Justice, did i:-..for::1 th.~ IJrc:Ss ;alli!:-y of. 1.-rha t o•..1r inte':l.t:ions h'ere or ~o t.

I do agree that at least t!ley should be infomed o£ >c-Jhat r..;e intend to do, and then c:1ey can take it '::lack to their manage'Tlent to see \.Jhether tl1e mnnagement is z,oins :o ':Je .satisfied to pay t::e alt,.litional overtime or money or ·.vhatever is necessary to adequately ~a:1 a:1d cover the proceedings of the nouse. In any case 1 do agree 5505

~fay 2, 1977 Tape no. 1978 Page 2 - ms ~fr. Ped:ford. with it in principle. I do not know if the Gaver~~ent House Leader did it or not. On the overall paints that came up, the hen. member for Burgee - Bay d 1 Espoir (~fr. Simmons) in his corrnnents., you know, talked about it being insanity and all the rest of it. He have a fair amount of 1..rork to do here before we adjourn for the Summer, a fair amount of very important war~. And although the hours are long as it relates to three days especially, they are long for both sides.

And, you knm..r, with all due respect to the han. member and his point that the ministers can hire as many executive assistants as they like by a ~finute-in-Council, oc Order-in-Council, the fact of the matter is that we are not going to go around every day hiring another executive assistant if we >·7ant another phone call answered. We all have one executive assistant, and that is end. And we have a lot of work to do which executive assistants cannot do. You know, that is a lot of foolishness as far as I am concerned. We have to be here for these hours. The hen. member can leave ':vhenever he wants.

He does not have to keep a quorum. He says, he ·cannot answer his phone calls. \.Jell he can T.Valk out of the House whenever l1.e wants to. Talking about us having executive assistants,the han. member, any han. member on the other side can walk out whenever he ,,-ants to.

There have been times in this session and every session when han. members of the Opposition can stay out in their districts for t':·Jo or three days in a given ueek 1:Jhen I cannot as a f'linister do it, 'because I ~ave to be here in the House because of the Question Period and other let us <J.ot just say that you l:lave got from nine o'clod: ";o ten c·'clock in the morning to answer your ?hone calls. T~at is balderdasa. You can ~valk ·:-ut ~;.;henever ycu like, the ~on. member can. So, ~,rou knm-1, that is t~e story on tr1at.

T:1e goverr.ment has the responsibility to keep a quo:cum in the ilouse. .-\nd t:1e other point that :1e :-aentions is the S506

:ray 2, 1977 Tape no. 19i8 Page 3 - os !·!r. Peckford. fa ct that he Hould rather have this insanity regularize d rather­ than have t!'la goverr-..mer.c tell him every ciay t.rhen t!:e :touse is going to be open the next cay. ~I/ ell ~·lh o is the ~on . me!:!.ber"? The government has a responsibility to oper ate chis i!ouse . It has the majority of members. And who is t he non . member :or Burgeo - 3ay d'Espoir (~rr . Siomons) to say that nobody is going to tell him tmen the House is going to be open tomorrow. You know, that is just so much poncificati:1g ti1at it would make you sid~.

In any case I move the amendment. 3.ear, hear ! Sm·1E HON. ~~'ffiERS: ~1R . SPEAKER: Is the Rouse ready for the question. Those in favour 11 aye . 11 Contrary "nay . 11 Carried. PRESE~THIG ?ETITIONS : ?ne ~on . member for Sellevue . HR. SPEAKER: :·fR . CALLAN: ~1r . Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on behali of 237 voters in the district of Bellevue. It is specifically from t~e three communities of St. Jo~es · J~;:h::. n, Hacc:1et Cove and Hillview . ~!r . Speaker , a t.:eek ago, last :·fonday night, I held a meeting SS07

May 2, 1977 Tape 1979 (Morning) PK - 1 Hr. Callan: down in one of these three communities. They were wondering ~.,;hat plan of attack to use to try ar..d get something done with the twelve mile stretch of road which leads from the TCH at Hillview to the dead-end at St. Jones ~.Jithin. So I went down there last i:onday '\vhen we had a day off, went down through the district, through a dozen or so communities and stayed and had a meeting that night at St. Jones ~ithin. MR. ROBERTS: ~!R. CAL LAN : MR. ROBERTS: MR. CALL\J.'l' : St. Jones Within or Without? Nobody lives in St. Jones Without. St. Jones was within.

But that community has probably just as good a chance to get something done with their roads as the people who live within. Mr. Speaker, the prayer of the petition is as follows; ''T,.oie the undersigned residents of the communities of St. Jones \hthin, Hatchet Cove and Hillview do humbly petition the han. House of Assembly now in session to further upgrade and pave the twelve miles of road leading through Hillview, Hatchet Cove and St. Jones I.Jithin~ 1 Mr.

Speaker, about two weeks ago I presented a petition here from many of these same people who were protesting the route taken to build an access road from the TCH through Hillview. It was a bit late~as I explained to them later$ I took excerpts from Hansard showing them what I had said in presenting the petition and also showing the response made by the i-finister of Transportation and Communications, and tried to explain to them that it was a bit late, construction had already started and a large part of the -.;.;ork has been cione. At any rate, Mr. Speaker, these people are asking that their road be upgraded. Hr.

Speaker, they talk about paving here and so on; I do not: t:hink for a Lnoment they expect t::at they •,vill get the road paved this year. But the idea is, I think, to draw to the attention of government, and specifically the Department of Transportation and Communications once more, dr~w goverr~ent's attention to the fact chat they are alive down there, they are people who travel ever roads every day, ;ravel roads and, in particular, ~~r. Speaker, C.urinz the :Jinter these roads or sections of this roaci ar= 5508

May 2, 1977 Tape 1979 (~Iorning) Hr. Callan: pretty treacherous. Perhaps treacherous is not the right word; perhaps I should say instead that some of the bad hills there makes driving over them almost impossible because I was told last Monday night by several people who said that on their way home from work at the refinery or from somewhere else in the Province they could not get not up over the hills in their cars, and so they had to leave their cars there and walk the rest of the ways home, two, three or four or five miles. PK - 2 So, Mr.

Speaker, if nothing else is 'done with this particular stretch of road this Summer, if nothing else is done, if the three bad hills on that twelve mile stretch, if these three bad hills are eliminated then at least that will be a step in the right direction. Hear, hear! SOME RON. MEMBERS; MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, a few minutes ago when - there is a danger here of entering in the realm of debate - but a few minutes ago we were talking about the waste of time in this House, Mr. Speaker, I hope that this petition does not fall on deaf ears. The Minister of Transportation and Communications is not here this morning.

I do know where the gentleman is. However there will be a follow-up to this petition.Hopefully sometime this week or next week a delegation from these communities will meet with the minister and talk in more detail about exactly what they hope to accomplish there. The minister opposite talked about not being able to get to his district. Mr. Speaker, when you can announce $1 million r..rorth of road work, you know, without going to your district then there is hardly any need. And this is one of the reasons I say that this Rouse is a Haste of time because goverr.=:snt :::emoers seew - MR.

PECKFORD: I am there every weekend. MR.. CAL:::..Al'l' : to get whatever they want an~vay. So I was thinking particularly of myself. I notice, ~r. Speaker, that the Minister of Rural Development is still on that side, He has not been kicked out yet, tr]ing to play both ends against the illiddle. 5509

May 2, 1977 Tape 1979 (Morning) PX - 3 ~IR . FLIGHT: Tnat is not true. They did not get the hospital in Grand Falls 1 did they 'John'? AN liON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) . MR . CALIJu"l : As I sai~ I attended a meeting down in that area of t!:e district of Bellevue last week. /l..nd I hope, Mr. Speaker, that some money vill be spent dot~ there in upgrading the roads beca use the people ttuwn there who travel them daily, trying to get back and forth to work and ~.;hat have you-,need , deserve, be tter roads than they have. SSiO

May 2, 1977 Tape No. 1980 NM- 1 MR. CALLA..."l' : Mr. Speaker, I ask that this petition be tabled and that it be referred to the department to which it relates. I thoroughly support the petition. ~. SPEAKER: The han. member for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir, MR. SI}~ONS: Mr. Speaker, I have a petition. I was hoping that somebody of the scattered few government ministers over there would rise and support his petition. MR. MURPHY: Why? MR. SIMMONS: Why~ Because of the need, which the member for St. John's Centre would not understand of course, would not know anything about.

One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight - seven and a half ministers over there, ~r. Speaker, this morning, seven and a half ministers to answer all the questions we have got to ask. Seven ministers and the member for Grand Falls (~r. Lundrigan). MR.. PECKFORD_:_ A point of order, Mr. S])eaker. MR. SIMMONS: Half in and half out at the moment. mt. PFCKFORD: A point of order, the han. member for Burgeo - MR. SIHMONS: I rose to present a petition. MR. PECKFORD: ... Bay d'Espoir (Mr.

Simmons) rose to his feet to present a petition and in his first minute and a half to two minutes of his dissertation has been completely irrelevant. He has not given the prayer of the petition, He has not told us what the petition is about. All he has mentioned is that there are seven and a half or eight ministers here in the House,that nobody has replied to the hon. member for Bellevue's petition and to me those kinds of comments are not relevant under the rules of the House. ~ • S r..~ '0!-T S : HR. SPEAKER : ~fR. S Tl'1MONS : !o the point of order, ~r. Speaker. The hon, member for Burgee- Bay d'Espoir.

I must admit, ~r. Speaker, I was provoked. I had so ·many questions for the upc~in2 . Question Period, there are only seven ministers here~and the member for Grand Falls is obviously on his ~vay out of the Cabinet~ and I r.vas a little conce~ed but I withdraw :ny remarks and get on \.tith the petition. 551.:1

May 2' 1977 Tape No. 1980 NM - 2 MR.. SPEAKER: Order, please! The matter by the hon. member's wihdrawal has been resolved. The substance of the point raised by the hon. Government House Leader was a valid one, The bon. member for 3urgeo -Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I have a petition from eighty-eight residents of the community of St, Josephs, in Bay d 1 Espoir, in my district, eighty-eight persons,all of whom live in the community of St.

Josephs,and I believe all but a very few of whom were present some three or four years ago when the Premier, the then ard sometimes Premier, made a announcement- well actually confirmed what the people of that community had felt to be the case, namely that the paving contract which was then ongoing during the Fall of 1973,when by a complete - coincidence there was a by-election going on, the Premier confirmed that the road through the community of St.

Josephs, a road which is, if you like, at right angles to the main highway system around Bay d'Espoir, a road of less than a mile in length, that road was indeed included in the paving contract. The Premier made that statement quite emphatically just before the famous by-election. Some tL~e subsequent somebody discovered that the premier's statement was not exactly correct. 3ut it did serve for the moment, Mr. Speaker, it did serve to placate a group of people during a by-election, it did serve once again to allow the Premier to lead some more people down the garden path. Well, ~r.

Speaker, that path continues to be something worse than a garden path in St. Josephs. It is a very rocky, very hazardous and very dusty road. As I say it is just a very short length of road, something of the order of a half mile or so. I wish the Minister of Transportation were here this morning because he would have some first-hand knowledge of this particular

section of road. The petition, as I have indicated, is that the government kee? its earlier commit:::nent to pave that segnent of road. It \vould alleviate some -real probler:J.s there, Yes. I 5512

May 2, 1977 Tape No. 1980 NM- 3 ~. SIMMONS: have been looking for the actual distance; it is three-quarters of a mile of road from the point of which it intersects with the Bay d'Espoir Road around to the far end of the community, over near the sawmill for those who know the community. Now the signatures of eighty-eight people would constitute just about every adult person in that particular community. .~d I would hope that with the paving that is going on down in Green Bay - did somebody say $1 million worth of paving, is that ever possible? MR.. ROBERTS : MR.. SIMMONS : MR. SMALLWOOD: MR.

SIMMONS : (Inaudible) Is that right? I see. That depends on what he will give-to help. That is all provincial is it? That is all provincial, 'Brian' • all provincial,eh? MR. SMALLWOOD: But federal money. AN HON. MEMBER: All provincial, Sir? MR. SIMMONS: Is that: right? All provincial?' 'Brian 1 is that all provincial though? It is not all provincial certainly God. MR. PECKFORD: The former member for Green Bay 5513

Nay 2,1977 1981 AH-1 I would very much, I would very much. All nrovincial. YP .FI IG?T: ~.J'hat the :r1ember needs now is to go into Grand Falls. "1-"R. SD-!!-ffiNS: ~·1r. Speaker, how many Cabinets do we have on he go now? Hm.; many? Ten o 1 clock in the morning ·.the "1inister of Energy makes an announcement which flies completly in the face of r.vhat the Hinister of Finance says at three o'clock about the need for restraint, and then the next morning the guv from Grand Falls is out crying in his beer about a government that will not listen to him. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! ~ ·fR.

SD1MONS: Well,that is to the credit of the government -concerned, Mr. Speaker, if they will not listen to that ~articular minister, I assure you. Eut this is the petition, ~r. Sneaker, I am hoping that perhaps for the purpose of getting this road paved the Hinister of ~~fines and Enegry r.-1ould snonser a minute of council whicli ~.;auld make - I hope hf! is listening. I am wondering if the member for Green Bay, the Minister of Energy, would sponsor a minute of council which would make St.

Josephs part of Green Bay for the purnose of getting a bit of road oaved1 Three quarters of a mile in $1 million worth of paving ~vould not be much at all. MR. PECKFORD : I will consider that seeing - ~fR.. SW10NS: That is righ, exactly. He has most of the ryrime properties there already and to add St. Josephs ~ould solve his prohlem and mine. I am pleased to present the petition on behalf of the eiil:htv-eight persons from St. Josenhs and request that it be referred to the appropriate denartment. 5514

May 2,1977 Tape 1981 AR-2 PRESF.NTI~r, REPORTS BY ST:\NDING A?-ID SPECIAL COI~fiTTEES MR. SPF.A...TZER: Eon. Einister of Finance. ~1R. DOODY: Hr. Speaker, I would like to table for the information of the Rouse some info~ation relative to Labrador Linerboard .~.imited _ Th~re is an information memorandum ·-hich ha~ __ ? .. ~el?: pJ::~ll?.red whi~"IJ. summariz~s the mill, its history, the mill operations, description of production flow and marketing, total provincial investment, standard · ~anning and so on, aa prepared by the people at the mill and the people in Finance and the consultants who were involved, Sir.

There are three copies here. I would also like to,- ~ "'. POBEP.TS: Do you have some more? MF .. DOODY: ~~ere are more available down in the department. MR. ROBERTS: Could the minister have - you know, ~:;e ''JOuld like more and maybe other members. YR. DOODY: Yes,there are more available down in the Department of Finance. MP .. SMALL HOOD: How de we get them? ~JR DOODY: I can have them delivered if- MR. ROBERTS: Let us get at least one for every member, 'Bi l l.' HR. DOODY: ~·Je also have here the preliminary report of the Advisory Board to Labrador Linerboard Limited, dated April 25,1977.

And I must say that it bears no resembl~nce ~rr. Speaker, to the information in the newspaper this morning. ~tR. :TEARY: ~ ·f_R • DOODY : ~fR. ~TEARY : H~-. D00DY: Is that the only reuort - Yes, this is the only report - r.an we h.ave a conv of that one,too? And that is the same thinB· I can have these ~elivered too. I have tabled three of them. ~e conclusion of the report mav~e r.;orth readin~ for t:!:'le sake of those people ~.rl,.o 5515

!-!ay 2,1977 Tape 1981 f.IR. DOODY: read t~at

article this morning. It ,,Tas only a paragraph. "The board can only conclude that under present conditions the company is not a viable linerboarc operation and the board cannot recommend continuing operations in their present form. The terms of reference of this board do not include an analysis of the social implications of the adoption of tr.F particular course of action. The boards conclusions are therefore arrived at within perimeters of prudent business decision. The Advisory Board recommends that operations continue until the existing wood and other direct materials have been converted to finished products.

During this period the board intends to complete its reports on wood supply and alternative uroduct lines. The board is prepared to work with the provincial government in its dealings with the federal government or any other interested party in completing these reviews. 11 So there are further renorts to come in from the ~\dvison Board and as they come in they T.lill be tabled. ~1R. SHPLLWOOD: Dealing with wood and things lil.'".e that. r·1R. DOODY: Dealing -cv-ith wood. MR. SMALU700D : MR. DOODY: right. ~-rR. ROBERTS: And other possible products. A conversjon study and a wood study, that is 1\ ~r.

Speaker, I know I cannot ask questions so I will not but maybe I could ask the minister an unouestionable question. Hm-7 many copies of these documents are there? I gather of one document t~ere are quite a number in Finance~but are there adequate conies of t~e .~_dvisory Board's report because I am sure that each member on this side would like one and oossiblv two or three others. A.r\T RON. ~!EMBER: Fear, hear! :1.-rR. D00!JY: I -cvill ans~.ver t~e unansw·era'b le, Sir. I will see that every member of the House gets a cooy. 5516

~ay 2,1977 TaJ?e 1981 AH-4 'fR . ROBERTS: And a couple of extra, 'Bill' . - ~ . DOODY: And a couple of extra for the hon. Leader of th7_rpposition. ~ . ~WBERTS: I have friends too. ~!Sl-'ERS TO QUESTIONS TO F1HCH NOTICE rL-\.S BEH~ GIVEN. HR.. SPE..A.JCER : Ron. ~nister of Fina nce . HR . DOODY: I have anslvera to questions No. 171, 172, 173, and 174. I do not know the order paoe r they :-rere on but thev , - were all asked by the hon . member for LaPoile and they are alJ 5517

Hay 2, 1977 Tape no. 1982 Page 1- ms HR. DOODY. dealing with the Labrador Linerboard. That is that series of four questions on Lab. Linerboard which the hon. member had asked. ' And I also have the answers to questions asked on February 24, by Mr. :i1cNeil, the member for Stephenville, a nine part question also dealing with Labrador Linerboard Limited and included with that is a set of the financial reports ~•hic.'l he as ked for , from Harch 31st, 1976 . ORAL QUESTIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. :V!R. ROBERTS; ifr.

Speaker, Stephenville is obviously - cr Linerboard is obviously the subject on "'hich we should ask some questions, but it is difficult in the absence of the Premier and the Minister of ~~npower. It seems unfair to throw more questions at the one man who is trying to do something, the Minister of Finance. But in the absence of really everybody else who counts, I will have to ask him; Could the minister tell us to begin with, Sir, how many men will be thrown out of work or put out of work, lose their jobs whatever ~vay you want to put it as a result of the government 1 s decision to close the Linerboard mill?

How many at the mill and how many in the ancillary operations, the woods operations and~the like? HR. SPEAKER: The hon. Hinister of Finance. ~-:!R. DOODY: The information that I have, Sir, is that there is probably in the nature of about 600 to 620 people, that is including the woodland and the mill operation in total, and that is not contract or ,..,oodcontra~tors. That is the mill 1 S- ?:<IR. RG"BERTS: How many contractors are there? :-IR. DOODY: There are none as of now. ~le have not been buying contract wood for some time. ~-IR. ROBERTS : Nr. Speaker - HR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. :-fR.

ROBERTS . - a supplementary if I might, p~ease. S518

~ray 2, 1977 Tape no. 1982 Page 2 - ms 'MIL DOODY: There are about twelve or so in Goose Bay also still employed. · I think there are about fifteen or so. ~1R. ROBERTS : So . there are additional people in Goose Bay - eh? Hr. Speaker, can the minister outline to us what the government intend to do in an effort to try to provide alternate employment for those approximately 650 men and ':Wmen? HR. SPEAKER: }ffi.. DOODY: The hon. minister. There is a group of people working together and that is very likely where the ainister of Hanpatver and Industrial Relations is this morning.

The federal people and the provincial people are 'ivorking together to put a task force, as it were, in place. I think they are headed for Stephenville this afternoon to meet the mill personnel, with the ur).ion people and so on, and they will start working from there to try to put into place .~n job training for people.- training programmes - for whom alternate employment is found, those people Hho want to leave. And hopefully it will be a successful as was the placa~ent of the people v1hen the steel mill closed.

Of the 200 and some people involved there, there was something like 180 for 'ivhom a task' force such as this found alternate employment. In the meantime as we have indicated qe have at least four to six months and hopefully beyond that to work out these difficult decisions on behalf of the people at Stephenville. }fR. R6BERTS : liR. SPEAKER: 'HR. DOODY: NR. ROBERTS : A further supplementary. A supplementary. I might as well stay up, I guess. \V'ell~the only minister 'lvho is giving us any information!

Has the minister any reason or any information to suspect that his analogy '·7ith t:1e steel mill vlill be a correct one~ In other words,has the minister any reason or information to expect that the 600 or 700 people '.vho \•Jill directly lose their jobs as a result of the government 1 S position to close the mill:rh~t ~~ese peoole <t1ill find world And if so, ,.;ill it be Hithin this Province? 5519

May 2, 1977 Tape no . 1982 Page 3 - rns Hay 2, 1977 Tape no. 1982 Page 3 - ms UR.. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. HR. DOODY: The second part of the question is the most difficult to answer, because I do not know how many jobs in the_ Pro·':Tince will be found for them. And obviously the hope ther§!. is that these people can remain in the Province. I think it is reasonable to expect that the success ratio at the steel mill can pretty well be duplicated in Stephenvil],e. The att:idue of the federal government in this particular case has been absolutely .~ splendid.

They have come forward with offers of substantial amounts of money for replacement, retraining, moving and so on. Their people are very actively concerned and have been. 1-le have been talking to them, of course, for some time, and this is one of the questions that was raised during the Premier's recent visit 5520

May 2, 1977, Tape 1983, Page 1 -- apb HR. DOODY: to Ottawa. As a matter of fact I think Mr. Cullen was on national television commenting on just that. The indications are that the Task Force will be successful, if indeed you can call the closedown of an operation and the movement of people a success. MR. SeA ..ALL WOOD : With one ~illion unemployed in Canada, what is the chance of those men getting jobs? HR. DOODY: I cannot give you the ratio. ~1R. NEARY: A supplementary, Hr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to - MR.

ROBERTS: It is like the operation failed but the undertaker - HR. DOODY: but the patient died. MR. NEARY: Yes, the operation was a success Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the han. member, because of the tremendous investment, millions and millions of taxpayers dollars into equipment as so forth in Stephenville, will the minister tell the House what steps if any the government have taken to protect this equipment when the mill does close? How many men presently employed with Labrador Linerboard will be employed on maintenance and security after the mill closes?

Or would the minister indicate what is going to happen to all the millions of dollars in equipment presently at Stephenville and what steps will be taken to keep the fire-sale beys away, the scavengers away from getting that equipment at bargain basement prices? HR. SPEAKER: HR. DOODY: The hon. the Minister of Finance. Hell,these are questions that will have to be answered during the next six months. Obviously we had not put into effect any mothballing 5521.

May 2, 1977, Tape 1983, Page 2 -- apb MR. DOODY: plans while we were trying to find a way of keeping the mill in operation. During the next six months whatever appropriate steps are necessary will be taken and as to how many people will be involved and so on, I cannot answer that right now but as the information becomes available it will certainly be supplied to the hon. House. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. DOODY: In anticipation of the question it is something in excess of $300 million. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the minister - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I may have been incorrect in my impression.

I thought that the hon. the member for LaPoile raised on a supplementary, in which case I was going to recognize the original questioner for his supplementary. MR. LUSH: I am sorry. MR. NEARY: Yes, Sir, the supplementary I wanted to ask the minister, Sir, in connection with all the equipment that is stored at Goose Bay, and in Stephenville, will that be disposed of by public tender? Will it be held for the next four to six months to see if a new operator is going to come in and take the mill over? Some of it, I understand, has already been disposed of.

What is the position now concerning these many millions of dollars worth of equipment? HR. SPEAKER: 1·1R. DOODY: The hen. the Minister of Finance. The answer to part of your question - that is not parliamentary - to part of the han. member's question is contained in some of the answers that I tabled this morning, and it relates to the equipment that has already been ~isposed of, that

section of the questions. The equipment that has already been disposed 5522

May 2, 1977, Tape 1983, Page 3 -- apb HR. DOODY: of is old, obsolete, worn out Javelin days equipment. None of the new operable equipment has been disposed of and it is still being held. It will be held until such tL~e as we are absolutely certain that there is no option or no future .or no alternative life for the mill. If it is decided that that unfortunate event occurs, and the equipment has to be disposed of, then it will certainly be disposed of by public tender. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER : I will recognize the han. the member for LaPoile for one additional supplementary, then the .hon. the member for Twillingate. MR. NEARY: Would the minister tell the House what steps have been taken to protect this equipment against theft, pilferage, rust and corrosion? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. HR. DOODY: I understand that the people at the mill are looking after that end of it. If the member has some doubts that these things are being done, or has some evidence that they are not, I would like him to pass them forward to me so that I can look into them.

Obviously from here it is pretty difficult to be able to see what stage of corrosion some of that I material might be in. But if there is some indication that some of it is not being properly maintained I would like to hear about it so I can take the appropriate steps. i'·m. NEARY: Go down and take a look at it the same as I did, about blO weeks ago. HR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Twillingate. H.R. SMALLWOOD: A supplementary to the minister, Mr.

Speaker. ~'Jould the minister tell us if the reports that ~e has tabled, of which copies are to be given to us, do not, in fact, give a careful breakdown o£ tt~ha t the 5523

May 2, 1977, Tape 1983, Page 4 -- apb MR. SMALLWOOD: mill has cost the Treasury to date and the debt position of the government vis-a-vis the mill. That is to say, what was the total amount of original cap~tal investment? How much of that is in the form 9f bonds for which the government are now responsible? What is the cost of servicing that debt, the original debt? How much additional debt has been incurred? The 5524

May 2, 1977 Tape 1984 (Morning) PK- 1 Mr. Smalhmod: cost of servicing that debt? How much-of the operating losses have been capitalized? And is there a debt service on that portion? In other words,a complete financial breaRdown, if that is not in the reports that the minister has tabled,will he give the House that information in some other form? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, I think that most of the answers that the han. gentleman is looking for are contained in the information document. Section (3) here - Section (1) says the cost and so on.

Section (3) of the Province's total investment in the company at the time of takeover is so-and-so. The total investment to date is so and so. The principal debt repayment that the company has advanced is fourteen and so on. I think that most of the question - most of the answers are in here or can be mathematically deduced from the content, and if they are not here I will certainly undertake to have them provided.

And if there is some information here that the han. member needs perhaps he can communicate with me directly and I will get it for him ; you know, it would be quicker perhaps than W?iting for the House procedure. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Terra Nova. MR. T. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Finance. With respect to the phase out,I am wondering if the government have worked out a plan with respect to layoffs of the men?

For example, will there be a gradual layoff beginning now or will the full quota of men who are there now,be it 600 or 620,be assured of their jobs say for the four month period or the six month period or will there be a gradual layoff beginning now? ::1R. SPEAF-ER: tfR. DOODY: The han. Minister of Finance. I think it is fair to say that most of the people~ by far the majority of the people who are there now,will be encouraged to remain there until the completion

schedule of the run through of inventory and so on. There may be a small number of people in woo~land~ or other areas who might be redundant as of now, but it vJOu1U. be a relatively small protion of the total 552~

May 2, 1977 Tape 1984 PK - 2 Mr. Doody: employment number out there. As I say~it is our hope that most of the people there will remain until the mill is completing its run through of inventory, and if mothballing is necessary then to work on that project as well. MR. ROWE: A supplementary. HR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. The hon. member . for Trinity- Bay de Verde. MR. ROWE: Hr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister of Finance could indicate what the situation is with respect to severance pay for these employees who will be laid off eventually, of course, but who do get jobs after that period?

Will they continue to get severance pay? HR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: There is a severance pay formula that has been worked out, and rather than either confuse the House or confuse "'''.ff (,._ myself, or t!'.o_re i1".portan tly confuse the people in Stephenville, I ,.muld 1\ undertake to take notice of the question and answer it tomorrow, because it is a little complicated for those who will remain until the completion there is an extra bonus; for people who want to leave tomorrow, if jobs are found, they get so many months pay.

We are encouraging people to stay on until the end; we are not penalizing those who find alternate employment. So it is a little bit complicated and I do not want to mislead anybody. MR. ROWE: A further supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A further supplementary. The hon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. MR.

ROWE: Would t~e minister undertake as well, Speaker, to I find out what happens to these people who do indeed get jobs, but say, you know, outside of Newfoundland - or in ~Te~..rfoundl2ncl. outside of ti-e Liner1oard mill, and their incoTT"e, ··'e T·'O'lld say, >-'Ot.!ld be A. fraction of tr.:c.t "ri c:: :. they would receive from the Li4erboard mill, would they be supplemented. in other words)through severarce pay to bring them up to the amount that they would normally make at the Linerbozrd mill? Could the minister undertake to get that a~ well? SS26

May 2, 1977 Tape 1984 PK - 3 MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Finance. MR.DOODY: That would be a part of the termination plan. Obviously I do not think the Province would be in a position to get involved in a situation like that, if I understand the question correctly. But nevertheless I will undertake to answer it in more detail when I am bringing in the termination policy plan for the member. MR. NEARY: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, then I will ~ecognize the han. member for Fortune-Hermitage (Mr. J. Winsor) and the hon. member for Conception Bay South .(Mr. Nolan). MR. NEARY+ Mr.

Speaker, I would like to ask the minister if he could tell the House just what the position is now regarding the fullfilment of contracts. How many contracts does the Linerboard mill have at the present time? Will they be able to fill their contracts before the six month period expires? Do they have any new contracts coming in? If so, how will they deal with these? Ihe people seem to be confused now because shipping is still going on. They are still looking for markets,I presume. What is the position now concerning this situation? 5527

May 2, 1977 Tape No. 1985 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: Dealing with the orders that we have will not be any problem, Mr. Speaker, and as for the contracts that we have, once again that will not be a problem. Our ~roblem has been getting orders and getting contracts. The goods that are being shipped now and have been shipped during the past year,you know,have been at a tremendous net loss.

Total cost per ton of finished product projected for 1977 is NM- 1 $424 and our mill nets are projected at $200, So at $220 a ton loss~you. know,the contract thing, we can handle that very nicely, Trying to find sales at a reasonable price has been the big problem with the mill. MR. NEARY: Have the marketing people been recalled now or what? MR. DOODY: The marketing people have still got to sell the inventory that is going to be put through during the next four to six months. There are some orders there for some of it, others will have to be found.

MR.NEARY: Are there any penalties in getting out of the marketing ? MR. DOODY: No penalties in getting out of the marketing. We are going to have some problems with shipping. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Hermitage. ~~. J. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Fisheries, Would the minister tell us what is the current situation with regard to negotiations on lobster prices? Is there a stalemate between the government and the Mainland companies? Does the minister observe an ~~tensive change in the Mainland companies attitude? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. 5528

'" May 2, 1977 Tape No. 1985 NM- 2 MR • W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, replies have been received from at least three of the four companies that I wired last week concerning prices. In the telegrams they have endeavoured to justify the prices that they are paying the fishermen. That information has nmv been submitted to the Fishing Industry Advisory Board whose job it is to assess all the conditions, prices and so on, and to report back to me as soon as possible. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the han. member for Fortune- Hermitage. MR.

J • TN"INSOR: Does this indicate that the minister contemplates buying lobsters t-lith a view to storing? MR. W. CARTER: No, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Conception Bay South. MR. NOLAN: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Consumer Affairs. I am wondering if the minister is familiar with the statement made on CBC radio,I believe this morning, by the Deputy Mayor of St. John 1 s, concerning Affiliated Metals, one,that they were out of business; two,that $100,000 is collected from the people of St.

John's on licences and so on to clear things away,and based on their calculations in the last year or tvn for the cars collected it has cost $400 for each one collected. Now with the Summer coming on I am wondering if the minister is in a position to give us an updater on the position of that company and what we can expect in the way of cars being collected and so on by the company involved and in fact what about the statements of the Deputy ~~yor of St 1 ohn'-? •"' "'• ~. SPEAKER: The han. ~inister of Consumer Affairs and Environment. "ffi.. ~1URPHY: Mr. Speaker, I did not hear the actual statement.

I was contacted by one of the media for a statement on it and I informed them that there was no need for the Deputy Mayor to go to CBC or anybodv else, he coulc have come to me and gotten the information that he desired. 552!3

:M...ay 2' 1977 Tape No. 1985 NM- 3 MR. MURPHY: Affiliated Metals have not gone out of business, As I said in the House earlier, they had suspended operations during the tough months of the Winter where the cars were frozen in and they would try to remove them and all they would get was a part of the hood or a part of the door,which was an absolute waste of money. And negotiations are now underway with two or three companies to ship some of these cars,out. As far as giving St. John's money to pay for the collection- I really do not know, There has been a contract made with this company by government.

I presume if we gave it to St. John's we would have to give it to every other municipality and find out how many cars are registered in Conception Bay South, or Torbay. ar give these people the $1.

But we are doing the best of what we can with what we have and things are looking a bit brighter as far as moving them. ~y big concern actually is with the council in the district in which the hon. member asked a question is represented,and that is Paradise because of this terrible eyesore in there where these cars are piled up like the CN tower but not half as decorati~e,and we have guaranteed these people that before we put . any more cars in there we will certainly try to move some out,and as I said earlier, that is in the process of being arranged now in the next couple of weeks with shipment.

The whole question of cour~e has been a very bothersome one and I asked my. officials in Environment the other cay to bring out the legislation~and unless some one t,a.ke-s action semewhere along the way you are liable to wake up some morning and find some guy dumning one of these ~rrecks in your hall. There is S530

May 2, 1977 Tape 1986 PK - 1 Mr. Murphy: legislation on the books that it is against the law to litter, and if the municipalities want to carry out that law they should do it because it is within their jurisdiction to do so. And I drove along St. Phillips way yesterda y , and I notice there is another bunch of cars all on the back line down there, up Topsail Pond Road, where I \..ra·3, there is another bunch there, and .. . . - people are just - and certainly heavens, Hr.

Speaker, some one sees people depositing motor cars. _It is not like throwing a cigarette package on the ground or something like that, but somebody must know who owns these, and until we can gee the necessary information - --AN HON. MEMBER: 1."\ey are all registered dm·mstairs. MR.. ~ITJRPHY : -~o. _ ~-ie \vent through that ,I remember,a few years ago, and in many cases the registered numbers are filed off on the block, you know. _.~nd . we have gone with an old licence number on some of them, and have gone up to two or three. ~ ut as I say~ it is a very serious problem. I agree with the city of St.

John's, as I do with the city of Corner Brook and Deer Lake and every other municipality in the place, but they have the legislation to prevent litterir..g and all I can say in this han. House now, Sir, to all of the members, get after their councils to get someone before court and we will give them the full extent of the law and punish them for littering and pollution along the highways and everywhere else. ~. NOLA.l'T: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR.

NOLA.i.'l' : Also in the statement that the Deputy Ma~or made this morning, he made reference to the fact that he has been attempting to get cars from St. john's dumped out in the Octagon Pond area, and they '"ere not prepared apparently to use Robin Hood Bay. lam wondering if the minister would be kind enough to inform the Deputy ~1ayor of St. John's that Paradise and so on is not a dumping area for the city of St. John's. And if he wants a delegation or a petition in this House against them that can be arranged. Surely the minister 5531

May 2, 1977 Tape 1986 PK - 2 Mr. Nolan: will take a position, a strong position on this so that the outskirts of St. John's will not merely be a dumping area for anything they want to throw out our way. Surely the minister will do that . MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Consumer Affairs and the Environment. MR. MURPh"'Y : I certainly will, Sir. And I have already made the statement that every municipality has an authorized \.raste disposal site, and why should anyb~dy in St. John's or any other area bring cars in and put them in some other municipality.

Now this was all a part of the original arrangement under the contract and we are trying everything in our power as soon as we get something moving to protect, as I said earlier, the municipality of Paradise and to get these cars out of there altogether. And I hope, Mr. Speaker, that within the next few months we will be able to do that. MR.. SPEAKER: The han. member for Windsor-Buchans. AL'l' HCN. MEMBER: Mr. Speaker, - MR. SPEAKER: I had already recognized the han. gentleman~but this will not preclude the han. member for LaPoile (~r. Neary) from getting back to the subject at a later recognition. MR.

FLIGHT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Finance with regards to the Linerboard. Host of the printed- reports we read this morning, Mr. Speaker, indicates that the decision to close the Linerboard was not based on any advice or recommendation from the Advisory Committee set up. Now last year, or when the Advisory Committee was set up,it was clearly understood in this Province that the future of the Linerboard mill lay with the recommendations made by that Advisory Committee.

Would the minister confi!T.l that the decision to close \vas made without the benefit of the recommendations or without the benefit of the Advisory Board's report, but was based on internal reports? 5532 I I I

May 2, 1977 Tape 1986 Pk - 3 HR. SPEAKER: The han. Hinister of Finance. M..._-q_, DOODY: No, Mr. Speaker, I read excerpts from the preliminary report of the Advisory Board earlier this morning in the hon. House, and the conclusion on page 8 says, and I quote., "The Board can only conclude that under present conditions the company is not a viable linerboard operation, and the board · cannot recommend continuing operations in their present form. The terms of reference of this board do not include an anal ;r~ is of the social implications of the adoption of a particular course of action.

The Board's conclusion where therefore arrived at within parameters of prudent business decisions. The Advisory Board recommends that operations continue until the existing wood and other direct materials have been converted to finished ·product. During this period the Board intends to complete its reports o~ ~vood supply and alternative product lines. The Board is prepared to work with the Provincial Government in its dealings with the Federal Government or any other interested parties in completing these reports. The Advisory Board, Labrador Linerboard Limited, April 25, 1977.

" So the report from the Linerboard -the Advisory Committee clearly suggests to government,or recommends to government that the concluding of the operations in their present form as a Linerboard nill. It says that it cannot - _"The Board can only conclude that under present conditions the company is not a viable linerboard operation and the Board cannot recommend continuing operations in their present form. ~. SHALLWOOD: "MR. DOODY: MR. SMALLWOOD: MR. DOODY: '::R. S}fALUlOOD: MR. DOODY:. :-fR. FLIGHT: That It :.is in par arne ters of strict business lines. That is right.

And they say they exempt social considerations. That is right. I think that is all they could do. That is right. A supplementary. 5533

Hay 2, 1977 Tape no. 1987 Page 1 - ms ~fR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. HR. FLIGHT: I just want to pursue this a little further. TI1e report the minister is quoting from there is the report of the Advisory Board. Then the minister is denying this - SOt~ HON. MEMBERS: He said it earli~r. MR. FLIGHT: - the statements made by The Daily Ne~.;s. HR. SPEAKER: The hen. minister. MR. DOODY: Yes, that is why I went to the unusual length of quoting from that paragraph from the doc~ent, because it is in complete contradiction to \vhat is in T'ne Daily News this morning.

I can only suggest that some of the material that is in The Daily News may have been from one of the sub-committees' reports to the Linerboard, perhaps one dealing with the capita l cost of replacing equipment or same such thing as that. And, you know, as for that itself it is certainly not included in the preliminary report. The Advisory Committee did not see fit - if indeed these comments are accurate - the Advisory Committee did not see fit to include it in their report to government. ~{R.. SPEAKER: The hen. member for LaPoile followed by the hon. member for Burgee -Bay d'Espoir. MR. ~EARY: Mr.

Speaker, my question is for the Hinister of 7:-funicipal Affairs and Housing, Sir. ',Jould the minister tell the House what steps his department have taken to protect the public treasury resulting from the effective pull out of ~etro Engineering from. the construction of a water and se~v-er project at Pouch Cove and Torbay? •rn ;.,'2..I\ •• SPE .. !\...TZER: ~·!R. DDm: The hon. minister. \-Je have done nothing to date, :.f:r. Speaker. \Je have indicated to the town that they should pay off any bills they have mJing,and we are tal!:ing to the.TTI nm..r, and we have a letter from that I have not answered.

I 1.vill be answering it today. UR. NEA.\. Y : A supplementary, ~·!r. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. 5534

Hay 2, 1977 Tape no. 1987 Page 2 - ms XR. m:ARY: ~1r. Speaker, ~•auld the minister tell the House then ~.;hat the legal position of the Q:.;o municipalities are as far as getting these projects completed? Can they now call on the bondholders_ now that the engineering company pulled out, Hetro has pulled out, can they call on the bondholders to finish the work in Torbay and Pouch Cove? ~·1R. SPEAKER: The han. minister. 1-ffi.. DINN: Yes, Hr. Speaker, I see no reason why they cannot and indeed I believe they have called on the bonding company.

And in both cases I do not believe the bonding company has recognized their call. They called the bond but nothing has happened. The contractor met him off the job in Pouch Cove on October 14 and in that case nothing has materialized up to this point. ~1R. NE.A1'1Y: :L·fR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. One additional supplementary and then the han. gentleman for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir. ~!R. NEARY: Mr. Speaker,~..rould the minister indicate if there have been meetings be~ween the t':vo town councils involved, and/or the tm·m councils and Metro Engineering and the bondholders?

And would the minister also in ans't-7ering the question indicate 'lvhether or not his department or the goverment will bar future contracts to outfits like Metro Engineering who started the work and then leave the town councils high and dry? '-'1R. SPEAKER: The han. minister. HR. DIN~: Hr. Speaker, since the dispute between the contractor and the towns has not been resolved, I do not knm.; who is at fault here or iaC.eed if anyone is at fault-,or '"hether it is just a difference of opinion bet't-1een the town or the contractor and the consultant or what have you.

So until it is resolved I obviously cannot coilll!lent on that. And as to whether the tmvn councils have held meetings,I have no knowledge that they have. Oh, certainly 5535

Hay 2, 1977 HR. DINN: Tape no. 1987 Page 3 - ms tha t~~ of Pouch Cove has and the town of Torbay has had meetings with officials in the department . :1:-ffi.. NEARY: \.Jhat about the barring the future contracts? HR. DINN: \.Jell certainly if vre run under the public tendering system and if the low tender comes in and that contractor is recommended by a consultant that he can perform the job, then we have no option but to accept the low tender. :1R.. NEARY: ~lust not they be made prove that they can perform and do the job? 2-:!R.. DINN: Host certainly they do - HR. NEP...RY: But in this case? ~1R..

DINN: - and the consultant makes recommendations to the department. And in this case, in both cases the·contractor was recommended. l-fR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Burgee- Bay d'Espoir. ~1R. S I:MMON : Hr. Speaker, a ques,tion for the ~finis ter of Finance. I refer to his budget of last Thursday, a document we shall not soon forget. I >vender would the minister indicate >:vhetheri as I understand,is normally the practice, 'i7hether in the cnse of this budget, his colleagues in Cabinet were consulted about the final budget that was presented on T'nursday?

TtJ'as it his mm document or was it a document that had the endorsment of his colleagues in Cabinet? 5536

fuy 2,1977 Tane 1988 AH-1 HR. SPEAKER: Order please! I think I should point out that that question is very close to,or in fact would be requiring an opinion of discussion or agreement or proceedings which -take place in the ~xecutive Council .. ~1R. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I did not intend it to be that, Nr. S?eaker, I asked - MR. SPEAKER: I recognize the hon. gentleman. Order please! I recognize the hon. gentleman to ask another question. ~fR. PECKFORD : I was wondering if the minister would indicate whether the document was his own personally or was it a document endorsed by Cabinet?

SOME HON. ~fEMBERS : (Inaudible) 000 MR. SIM-":ONS: A supplementary. YR. SPEAKER: The thirty minutes are up. ~ ffi.. SIYNO~~S: It passes s o quickly. ~-ffi. SPEAKER: Before calling order 2 1 I feel that I should point out to hon. members an irregularity in our proceedings earlier, and I think of imnortant enough conceauence in terms of a precedent or if it appeared to be acquiesced in that it shoulc be pointed out to the House no~v.

Again I re]Jeat the reason I do so is not to be overly technical but if one ,.,.ith knowledge acquiescences in an irregularity then one opens the whole question of to what extent rules have been changed or procedures have been changed. The House of Assembly Act whic!t gives statutorv requirements for certain matters oertaining to the House of Assembly points out ,Section 5, And I will only read the revelant part.

"The ~ouse may establish rules for its government and the attendance of its members and t:::e conduct of its business and for limitinQ; the length of time that members may spe~~ and it may alter, amend and repeal the same provided that no such rules shall be altered amended or repealed except by a vote of two thirds of the members 5537

~tay 2 ,1977 Tape 1988 AH-2 ~. SPEAKER: of such House~· And that obviously means t"ivo-tr-irds not of the members present but two thirds of the members, the elected members of the House of Assembly.

And because of the imoortance of that and the fact th.e.t this is a statute under '.Vhi.c!l the House of Assembly operates and ~vill continue to operate unless ~~d until it is amended,then obviously it must be drawn to the at tent ion of the legislature. ~.Jhat may of course be done is that by unanimous consent the resolution proposed this morning, the provisions therein adonted by unanimous consent for a oeriod of time-and that has the force of unanimous consent; it does not have the nature or the force of a sessional order, an amendment to the standing orders onerative for the remainder of this session.

T.Jhat the House voted on this morning purported to be, and on the - face of it ~vas , a sessional order, an amendment to the ~tanding Orders for this session. Because thirty-four members were not oresent,and all votin~ affirmatively, could not have fullfilled the re~uirement of the statutes. I cannot regard it nor can the minutes record it as a sessional order. This does not mean that its provisions may not be operative by unani~~us consent.

And when I notice that there are - and when I am in the Chair, that there are a total of at least thirty -four members in their olace, then it ';o70uld annear to me that that rvould be a convenient time to put the resolution again. t-!R. PECKFOF.D : Mr. Sneaker, let me say that t,.;e tvill not have the unanimous consent aspect of it until such time as the tt.vo-thirds are present in the hen House in order to m.a.ke it a sessional order, is that the nasition? YcR.

SPE~~ER: And is it my understanding that the provisions will o~erate ~y unanimous consent? ~lR. ~TEARY : Over what time period, Sir, are we allowing :,.ere? 5538

May 2,1977 Tape 1988 AR- 3 ~1L :-.TEARY: Say t•t~f>ntv - four hours, fortv - eight hours? ~·!e need thirty - four members I understa n d to make this - ~. SPEAKER: 7hirtv - fo ur affirmative votes . ~R. 2-TFARY: ~ut ~..re may never get thirty - four affirmative votes, Nr. Speaker. So, ~'r . Soeaker, you know this is a very iJl!1portant point and I am ~lad Your Honour has raised it . I am sur e our c~nstitutional expert has b rought it to 'iour Honour's attention. Under t~ese circumstances I am not prepare d to give my consent until t~ere are thirty - four members in t~e House . ~S. SPE.AKER: Therefore we will 5539

May 2' 1977 Tape No. 1989 NM- 1 HR.. PECK.FORD: call ~vhatever, if we cannot have agreement on that then the whole - MR. SMALLWOOD: Can we wait a few hours? XR. PECKFORD: ~Jell this is ~..-hat I would suggest, that the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) agree to the unanimous consent now and hopefully MR. NEARY: But will .it be done today, if you get thirty-four members today? Mil. PECKFORD : done today. MR.. ~TEARY : Well,we will strenuously attempt to have it Well I am satisfied to give the Government House Leader until six o'clock this evening, Sir, to get his members in. MR. SMALLWOOD: That is very good.

MR. • S TI1MONS : Hr. Speaker, there is no real nroblem here insofar as the first part of the motion is concerned, the hours of sitting because we by vote on Friday, we agreed to meet at ten this morning, so we are meeting quite legally this morning. The only question relates to the apportionment of time among the various estimates, and I understand from the minister you are going to have thirty-four members later today insofar as he - MR. • PECKFORD : We will get a move on to try to make sure that that happens, MR. SI~ONS: There is no bind. There is no bind. MR.

ROBERTS: ~~e will meet until six o'clock tonight then. ~·ffi • SIMMONS: There is no bind. ~'ffi.. S'PE.<~..KFR: Order, please! It is my understanding and I \vill repeat it so that there will not be a misunderstanding on this matter, that unanimous consent has been given for the ooeration of the provisions in the resolution un to and including six o'clock this evening. Correct? Is that agreed? Agreed. 5540

I-!ay 2, 1977 Tape No. 1989 ORDERS OF THE DAY: On motion that the House resolve itself into Committee of Supply, Mr. Speaker.left the Chair. NM- 2 MR.. CHAIRMAN: MR. ROBERTS: Head I, Subhead 101, Consolidate~ Fund Services. ~r. Chairman, this is an unusual head. It is a vast amount of money, $118 million, but relatively little of it has to be voted 1 as I recall it, Sir, Much of this is statutory. MR. DOODY: It is all statutory, MR. ROBERTS: Well if it is all statutory,what are we doing voting it. If it is not statutory - there is some of it I believe that is not statutory, Sir. MR.

DOODY: Even the expenses are statutory , now, The debt management expenses, Sir, have been included in the loan bill and charged to the loan. MR. ROBERTS: If it is all statutory then there is literally nothing to be voted. MR. DOODY: The only reason that it is being debated at all is because some people on the Opposition side of the House wanted to discuss the debt of the Province and so on, but that can be done under Finance. HR. ROBERTS: We will at least discuss for the hour we are allowed, for the hour that has been agreed, the debt management policy of the Province. I think that is what we want to talk about.

We are not really the least bit concerned with the numbers, I mean, these are statutory obligations. '1-Je have to stand by our credit. I mean even if we are going bankrupt the last thing to go will be the debt repayments. But then let it be the debt management. That is agreed is it, Mr. Chairman, that we will take the hour to talk about - We do not need to call the subheads because there are no subheads to be called. MR. DOODY: That is right. MR. ROBERTS: But we will take th~ hour to talk about the management of the public debt or the debt of this Province. :--ffi. DOODY : That is why I just called Head I. 5541

Hay 2, 1977 MR. • CRA IR."fAN: ~{R . DOODY : MR. • CHAIRMAN: Tape No: 1989 Order, please ! Is that by consent? That is okay. The bon . member for Twillingate . NM - 3 MR. ~~LWOOD : Mr. Chairman, that having been agreed I would like to speak quite briefly about the public debt of this Province. The population o£ Nova Scotia when ad~ed to that of Prince Edward Island and that of ~ew Bruns~-1ic!< is over 1 . 5 million souls t nearl y 1,600,000 . The population of this Province is about half of one million , slightly more t han that .

But if you say 1. 5 million for the three ~aritime Province and half of one million for ~ewfoundland you have an accurate comparison. And, Sir, the appalling fact is that if you take the public debt of 5542

May 2, 1977, Tape 1990, Page 1 -- apb MR. SHALLWOOD: one of the three :.!a ti time Provinces, their public debt, direct and indirect, that is to say their direct funded debt on which they have to pay interest and provide sinking fund, and the indirect debt, the servicing of which has to be done by others but guaranteed by the government of the Province, when the public debts of those three provinces are combined and compared with the public debt of Newfoundland,the astonishing and the apalling fact emerges that this Province owes hundreds of millions of dollars more than do those three provinces.

The three Maritimes have a population, as I say, of 1.5 million. Newfoundland has a population of half of one million. But Newfoundland's public debt today -well perhaps not today, but when this year's proposed borrowing progrmfuue is completed of approximately $200 million of which, I believe, $50 millions has already been ra·ised by the sale of bonds in Alberta-= when that programme is completed, to borrow,to add $200 millions to our public debt this year, this financial year, then our debt will be some hundreds of millions of dollars amore than the combined debts of the three Maritime Provinces.

Our debt at the end of the current financial year will be $2200 million or perhaps $2300 million. MR. ROBERTS: No, the hon. gentleman is wrong. MR. Sl·1ALL~700D: It is even more. M.."R.. ROBERTS : It is $2.5 billion. NR. S~.ALLWOOD : I am being deliberately consel;'vative here,with a small "c". The Leader of the Opposition gives me figures running it to $2.5 billion, $2,500,000,000 to round it off, out of 494 rounded out, $2,500,000,000 is the debt of this Province at the debt of this Province at the end of the current 5543

May 2, 1977, Tape 1990, Page 2 -- apb r1R. SMALLWOOD: financial year. We will end at the end of March next with a debt of $2.3 billion, $2.4 billion, $2.5 billion, some figure in there. Not less than $2.3 billion and $2.5 billion, which will be hundreds of millions of dollars more than the crrand J total combined public debt of the three Maritime Provinces and they have three times as many people to bear their burden of debt as we have. Three times. They are 1.5 million~we are half of one million.

Now I believe, I verily believe that we have in this Province natural wealth given to us by the Almighty, by the Creator,greater than the combined natural wealth of those three Maritime Provinces. Thanks be to God we have Labrador and Labrador has one of the mightiest hydro electric developments on the earth. And furthermore, a lot is there yet to be developed. I am talking only at the moment of what is developed, the Upper Churhcill. There is still the Lower Churchill and there is still other watersheds in Labrador, some minor ones here on the Island of Newfoundland.

There are considerable resources of timber, forest wealth, considerable 5544

Hay 2, 1977 Tape no. 1991 Page 1 - ns l·1I. Smallv1ood. resourc~ of mineral wealth in Labrador and in Newfoundland 1 and lying off the coast of Labrador ••e have "\vha t may well turn out to be - I believe 1vill turn out to be - one of the world's great deposits of oil and natural gas. So ,.,e nave these resources. He are not turning them into cash. t-Je cannot turn all of them into cash.

That being so, as it •vill be years from now, eight, ten, twenty years from now before 1ve can and 1,1ill turn those particular resources into cash., by wnich time our debt might be vastly greater than it is nm.1, because of that fact it is not sensible, not practical, it is not down to earth to talk about our vast resources compared 1:vith the resources of the three Maritime Provinces.

The argument might be put, Oh, yes, we have only a half a million people; we have a total debt of hundreds of millions more than the combined debts of those three provinces, but look at our resources; look at the natural wealth we have. Nm.; that is a good argument ten, bventy years from now. But today when you are not developing those resources - the ~Iinister of Fisheries in a magnificent supplement to The Daily News today talks of the next thousand days.

I do not know if he is going to be the Hinister of Fisheries for the ne:x:t thousand days or what ministry he may have, ~hether it will be one of the minor or one of the major ministers or perhaps even the major ministry of an administration. I do not know what will happen in the next thousand days. But, Sir, some time in the future our fisheries are going to be \•Torth a great- ~:e a great source of 111ealth and of cash income for the people and for the government of the Province.

That I concede But, Sir, r,rhat have we got in this Province today? \Tnat have ve got that is yielding cash, that is yielding revenue 5545

May 2, 1977 Tape no. 1991 Page 2 - ms :::·!r. Smallwood. to the treasury? Ttfuat have we got that means revenue? \Jha t have we got to justify a public debt greater, much greater than the combined public debts of the three Haritime Provinces? \vnen this Legislature was first elected and held its first session - I think it was in November, was it. not? the year before last~ I spoke about our public debt. It was at that moment about be~veen $400 million and $500 million less than it is today or will be in this present financial year.

I am taf.king about the appalling debt which '\vas then about $2 billion, I pleaded with the government,and for a'..rhile I was alone' in pleading r;1ith the govermnent to pull in the belt, to retrench, to pull in the belt relentlessly - I said almost cruellv - to save to Nel~oundland, to head her away from the direction in which she was headed at that moment, to save Newfoundland from collapse. And the Committee may remember that I carefully refrained from the use of a certain 'lvord.

And I pointed out to the House that I was so refraining because I said I did not want to use that 'lvord, because if I had done so it might be quoted in the press, radio and be used all across Canada that I, a former Premier - for twenty-three years, up to just about five years ago about, a former Minister of Finance, the man who had vrritten every budget speech for twenty-three years in Newfoundland, that he was not saying that Ne'tvfoundland r.vas headed toward -- and then would come that ugly word. 5546

May 2, 1977 Tape 1992 PK - 1 ~rr. Smallwood: I refuse! to use the word, and so I said, deeo trouble, we are headed for deep trouble. We are headed for serious financial trouble;that our duty as a government, as a House, as a Opposition, our duty was to get Newfoundland back on an even keel, financially on an even keel.

And I almost said, ForGed sake stop this mad and crazy borrowing, which as a matter of fact, I was the one to begin I began the borrowing twenty-eight years ago I began the harrowing programme, and for twenty-three years I led an administration that borrowed and borrowed and borrowed and borrowed right, left and centre until the day I walked out of office our debt was up to the inconceivable amount· of $700 millions.

And then I went on to point out that in the five years, it was then about five years, after I had gone out of_ office that I was speaking in this Chamber, and I said in those five years since then the present administration have added $1,400 million to my $700 million; $700 million in twenty-three years: $1400 millions added to the debt in five years. Sir, I pleaded with the government, I said, looking at the Premier, I said, "Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman has five years. He just has been returned with a good working majority.

He has got five years ahead of him under the Consitution before he must go to the people again in a general election. Use the first three years of the five to retrench, to economize, and get the ship of state on an even keel again. If he does not, Mr. Speaker, he is going to lead this Province into the direst conceivable financial trouble," and again I refrained from using that ugly word, and every member of this Committee knows the worJ that I have in mind. I was fascinated by a statement from a gentleman with Moody's- is it Moody's?- quoted in the papers here lately.

That did not impress me not at all, because I had two vivid recollections of a similar situation, God how I remember that situation that the government ~ent out on the market and asked for tenders from banks, from insurance companies, from bond houses Icr the purchase of a set of Newfoundland bonds that year. They got more responses than ever in history from more firms. rney got lower discounts, lower commissions offered them, and a lower rate of interest and generally in every way the best 5~47

May 2, 1977 Tape 1992 PK - 2 Mr. Smallwood: terms that Newfoundland had ever known in all her history before or since. It was a magnificent success. I remember it so well. Everybody was so proud. It made everybody feel good. God in heaven~ what a marvelous credit : standing Newfoundland had~ There. ' after these scores of years of her ups dawns,now she had the best credit rating in all her history. Nine months after that in a new financial year the Newfoundland Government could not sell one single dollar's worth of its bonds • Not a dollar. Not a nickel. Not a dime.

Nobody in the world would buy Newfoundland Government bonds, 'the very year after we_ had the best rating of all our history. So I am not impressed to hear or read as somebody who takes a very superficial look-as he said, he admitted he was taking a superficial look; he would have 5548

May 2, 1977 Tape No. 1993 NM- 1 MR. S'MALLWOOD: to examine the thing much more carefully- comes out with an optimistic statement. Well, Mr. Chairman,it is not too late. I think the Committee will agree that in the eyes of the financial world and the commercial world and the business world, if Newfoundland did a certain thing voluntarily, of her own volition, taking her own initiative to do it voluntaril~ it would be infinitely, infinitely, infinitely better than to have it forced on us. Because it is going to happen, voluntarily or involuntarily this borrowing will stop.

We cannot go on piling it up at $200 million a year and I know, I know, I know the built-in expenditures that tho churches are owed for education. I know the built­ in expenditures for the Municipal Finance Corporation. I know the things that you cannot stop for a while. But you can stop everything else. And if you do not you will, you will be made. Newfoundland 1 I say , you, you,Newfoundland,will be made to, you will be compelled to stop the borrowing. And that is my plea. It is a waste of words. It is a waste of breath·. It is a waste of time. They are not going to do it.

I do not believe there is the relentless iron nerve that is required to do it. But I believe this, that the people of Newfoundland will respond if they are told. It ~.;rill come to them as an absolute shock to hear that everything is not well, that we have not got good credit standing,and that our debt is something that we can not carry. It will come to them as a terrible shock. But it is true, and they have got to know it sooner or later. MR. • NE.o\RY : Mr , Chairman. ~. CHAL~~: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, I listened to the hon. gentleman who just took his seat, the hon. member for Twillingate (~r. Smallwood),very attentively, Sir, and I must say that the hon. gentleman gave the administration some very good 5549

May 2, 1977 Tape No, 1993 NM- 2 :MR. NEARY: advice indeed. A lot of the things that the hon. gentleman said are true and I think the Minister of Finance especially would be well advised to heed the counselling and the advice that has been given by the hon. gentleman. Now, Mr. Chairman, I do not intend to delay the vote on this particular heading, Consolidated Fund Services. Most of the things in here are statutory and immaterial of what I say there is nothing I can do to change one item. Except, Sir, that I can make one or two observations under this particular head and, Mr.

Chairman, I want to re-echo a point that was made by the hon. member for Twillingate (Yr. Smallwood), and I think it is a point worth mentioning, Sir, and repeating over and over and over again because we had it thrown at us so often when we were in the administration about how we were going to bankrupt this Province, we were going to put her down the drain, we were going to sell Newfoundland down the river. The han. member for St. John's Centre (Mr. ~1urphy) so often stood in his place- MR. MURPHY: ~. NEARY: It -.ras true. - in this han.

House and said, Oh, we are on the brink of bankruptcy. :MR. • CHAIRMAN : Order, please! MR. NEARY: You are going to bankr)lpt the Province. And, Mr. Chairman - MR. MURPHY: (Inaudible) MR. NEARY: Lo and behold, Sir• this han. gentleman who was responsible for making these wild statements in this han. House - MR. ~RPHY: ~. NE.A..~Y: So true. - since 1962 up to 1972, for ten years when the han. gentleman was over here in Opposition telling us that we were going - 'Yrhen we were over there the govennnent- we were going to bankrupt the Province, well after twenty-three years, Mr.

Sneaker, as my han. friend just said, the total debt of this Province was S700 million, between $700 million and $800 million, and now after five years, Sir, the administration has 5550

May 2, 1977 Tape No. 1993 MR. NEARY: tripled, has tripled the provincial debt and they can no longer, Sir, they can no longer get up and say, Oh it is a result of a hangover from the former administration. That is not true. It is not true, Sir. NM- 3 Most of that debt is caused by the stupidity and the blundering of the present administrntion, not caused by projects that

May 2,1977 Tape 1994 A.'I-1 HR. NEA..'R.Y: ~rere started by the former administration, caused by stupidity and blundering. A.J.'l RON. [®fBER: (Inaudible) ~.:::.1EARY: And mismanagement, Sir. Mr. Chairman, it is well and good to talk about belt tightening and this sort of thing,and the ~1inister of Finance on budget day tells us that this is a budget of courage,courageous - took a lot of intestinal fortitude to present this kind of a budget. Well, ~ Sir, as far as the Linerboard mill is concerned, reading between the lines and looking at Heady's statement in the Horning News~ I would gather, Mr.

Chairman, that the government had no choice, they had no choice, they were probably ordered by their financial people and by the bond houses an~ by the financial advisors to the government and by Moody's. The government had ro choice, the decision to close the Linerboard Hill vras made outside of this Province, not inside the Province. Because the Moody's and the other financial people probably, Sir, probably - and I do not know this for a fact - probably told the government that they could no longer continue to pumn the amount of money that was necessary to keep the Linerboard mill going. ~ut, Mr.

Chairman, even at that, Sir, even at that, we are still going to harrow, as my han. friend just pointed out to the Rouse, we are still going to borrow in the vicinity of $200 million in this fiscal year and this is really, Sir, flying in the face of providence. There is no way, Hr. Chairman, there is no way that the people of this Province can pay the interest. v.re do not have the foundation. Our econory will not stand, the people cannot stand it, the taxnayers have been Pressed hard enough.

T.Je cannot pay the interest on that kind of borrm·1ing, Sir, it is far beyond our ability and our present economy to paY the interest, Sir, on '> let alone make payT!1ents on the principal 5552 ! i ; ' 1 I

~ay 2,1977 Tape AH-2 'ffi. XEARY: of this kind of borrowin~. And our interest rates , Ytr. Chairman, 1;.;hether the Minister of Finance cares to admit it or not, our interest rates are probably about the highest in Canada. He are paying for borro'iving our money. I remember the minister saying one time ''Fell, there is no problem, we can still go and borroT,T money:' 1i!ell, Sir, so can a 1;·7elfare reciPient. And that is -.;.;hat I ~v-ould class ~ewfoundland today - put Ne~1foundland in the class of a v7elfare recipient.

If a welfare recipient goes to a finance company or goes to some loan lending agency to borrow money they sock it to them on the interest because they consider them to be a poor risk. Hell, that is what is happening to Ne•:-1foundland. Of course we can harrow money,but ~ve are paying throu~h the nose for it. We are paying pretty high interest rates, Mr. Chairman, and we cannot stand against it. The only way, Sir, that we can possibly withstand the affect of the amount of money that we are borrowing every year is to increase our gross provincial product.

And the minister told us in the ?udget Speech that our gross provincial product only increased last year, I believe it was by 1.5 per cent,or has the minister forcast this year that our gross provincial product will increase 1 or 2 uer cent? Our gross provincial Product should be increasing by a rate of about 8 or 9 per cent,in this Province probably more. An~vhere between 10 or 12 per cent a year. And in case some hon. members do not know what the gross provincial product is, it is the dollar value of all goods and services provided, produced in this Province. The ~1inister of Finance- :·fr.

Chairman, I heard the other day 1 and I really had a job to sv7allm.; this, I heard the ~.rinister of Transportation talking about that appointment down on the Southern Shore and he said "Oh, one of the applicants '"as more qualified than the gentleman who held the job'; r..;ho held it for thirteen 5553

.Hay 2,1977 Tape 1994 AH-3 HR . NEARY : years. I ~·7as tempted to shoot bac!< and say to him "r.Jell, t.rhere did the Minister of Finance get his qualifications for the job that he holds do~m'? Over in Duff's Supermarket ~vith his arm down in the pickle barrel? ~~ HON . ~~ER : That is ~eing dirty . 5554

May 2, 1977 Tape 1995 PK - 1 Mr. Neary: That is not being dirty at all. I am just making a compariso~with the arguments. •rn .i."'.i.J.'\.• MURPHY: What is wrong with selling groceries? MR. NEARY: No, Mr. Chairman, I have nothing - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) It is good work . }~. NEARY: - but the greatest respect for the hon. gentleman.

I am just drawing an analogy between how the Hinister of Transportation is trying to justify an appointment on the Southern Shore and I can look up and down the government benches: ' where did the member get the qualifications to be Minister of Consumer Affairs and the Environment? AI.~ HON. MEMBER: He was one minute before co-ordination. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I realize I am wanderir.g a bit off the subject here, Sir. SOME HON . MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I have been talking now both inside and outside of this House for the last, oh three or four years about productivity in this Province.

And I have to again, Sir, while we are dealing with this matter of borrowing, and so forth, paying the interest and the principal, I had to again, Sir, refer to the Productivity Council that I have talked for so long and so hard inside and outside of this hon. House. If we are going to continue to live high off the hog, Sir, and obviously that is what we are doing, because the minister can talk about this being a courageous budget all he likes, but apart from the closing of the Linerboard mill~~hich was the only real body blow in the budget, the only real bad news, Sir, it was not a tough budget.

It was not a tough budget,and I am not advocating a tough budget, I would like to look at it more positive myse:£ and I think that we in this Province,if we are going to maintain the services and expand the services that are needed in this Province for our people , if ~.,;e are going to expand, then we have to increase our productivity. Hr. Chairman, I cannot help but repeating ";hat I have said so often. It does not seem to have registered, it is falling on deaf ears. Canada, Sir, has the worst reputation of productivity, of production in the whole industrial Western World, and Newfoundland has the worst 5555

May 2, 1977 Tape 1995 PK - 2 Mr. Neary: record, the worst reputation in Canada. So how bad are we in this Province as far as productivity is concerned? Now the argument may be put forward, well there are only certain things that we can produce. We can only produce iron ore, fish, pulp and paper, forest products, cement. There are only a few things that we can produce in this Province and we are doing the best we can. \Jell I say we are not doing the best we can, Mr. Chairman, with the facilities, and with the manpower that we have.

But a?art from that, Sir, when I talk about a Productivity Council I am ta:king about a council that will help my han. friend the Minister of Fisheries, help my han. friend line up a long-term, long range programme for the fisheries, when the minister and the government and all of us together have to change the attitude ~nd have to break with tradition and change the attitude of our people, that our young people will be prepared to go fishing if there are no other jobs for our young people, and obviously there are not going to be other jobs because I think that the only natural resource that this Province has any hope at all for survival is the fishery.

Re-educating people: Mr.

Chairman, that is a job for the Productivity Council, not just industrial and public relations, that is not what I am talking about, Sir, I am talking about a total indoctrination of the whole population of this Province, the whole 525,000 of us, to change our attitude, whether you work in the private sector or whether you work in the public sector that you should give out an honest day's work for an honest day's pay, and that the peorle should produce more, and if you produce more then, Sir, you can continue to enjoy all the things that people today think are their rights, that you do not have to earn these things.

If we can increase our productivity, Sir, then and only then can we claL~ ~e things that we enjoy today as our rights. So, Mr. Chairman, having made those few remarks, Sir, I would hope that the minister would indicate to the House, 5556

Hay 2, 1977 Hr. Neary. Tape no. 1996 Page 1 - ms Hr. Chairman,his feelings on this particular matter, frJhere is the money going to come from to pay the interest and the principal on the money that we are borrowing? ~1r. Chairman, ,.,hen you· run into serious trouble in your borrowing, it is ~-7hen you have to borrow money to pay the interest on your borrowing. That is ~-rhen you run into trouble, Sir. :'hat is stage one. I would submit, Hr. Chairman, that we are at that crucial stage in our life.

Probably Hhen the minister now stands in his place he could probably reassure the peop~e of this Province that v1e are not on the verge of bankruptcy. Most people, Mr. Chairman, could see no hope at all in the budget.

That Has probably one of the great '"eaknesses in · the budget, and the minister probably realizes that now from the observatior. and the remarks that have been made, that the budget tleld out no hope for the future of this Province, that it did not portray New~oundland's role in the future for the next five, ten, fifteen years, Sir, that there was a little bit of tinkering with the various items in the budget, but it did not really indicate ~•hat kind of future Newfoundland had ahead. And I believe this ~·ras the great weakness, and this is what the minister should have played up more in his budget.

So, Sir, after the budget speech most of the reaction that I head from the people of this Province, the ordinary people that I came in contact v7ith, 'i-l'ell she is bankrupt, she is almost bankrupt, doom and gloom, pessimism is all I heard. The minister should tell us now, should make a statement after I take my seat and ,..,hen the other members on this side of the House have had their say. The minister should tell us if \ve are in real danger of financial trouble in this Province. Can we pull out of it? Hill 've 0e able to meet our commitments in the future?

Will the government take steps to improve our Gross Provincial Product by improving production, productivity in this Province7 The minister should 5557

Nay 2, 1977 Tape no. 1996 Page 2 - ms Hr. Neary. also tell us if we are going to take in enough revenue from the blunder made by the forced takeover of the Upper Churchill, if we are going to take in enough revenue this year to pay the interest on that loan, a couple of hundred million dollars that we had to borrow for the forced takeover of the C1urchill Falls Corporation.

And the minister should also indicate - that is something the minister did not do in his budget speech - indicate to us what steps that the NeT..rf oundland Government are going to take to save money, to eliminate extravagance and waste like the Norma and Gladys affair that we are now hearing about another $300,000 being put down the drain when the S600 on the special grant for people buying and building houses for the first time is cut out. That $300,000 could build 500 homes, help young people, build 500 homes.

Well,it is going to be flushed down the drain on the foolish Norma and Gladys affair to try to justify the mistake that was made last year spending about $1.5 million having her ~.;ander around the West Indies and tour various ports in the ~orth Atlantic and Europe.

The minister should tell us now be£ ore ~.;e pass this vote rr1ha t the government is going to do in the way of saving money and restricting Crown corporations, and all departments of government, Hemorial University, government agencies and so forth, restrict them from going out and irresponsi::ly borrowing and force them to eliminate- set priorities and force them to eliminate extravagance and waste. ~-lell, Nr. Cfiairman, having made these few observations, Sir, I look forward to hearing r,.;hat the minister has to say about these matters. HR. CHAIP.J1AJ.'l': ;.rp_. HURPHY: The hon.

Hinister of Consumer Affairs and Environment. Hr. Chairman, I do not wish to delay the Committee. I knov7 there is only a certain ~ but I must just say a couple of Hords because there ~vas a direct reference made to me as one 5558

:·!ay 2' 1977 Tape no . 1996 Page 3 - :ns ~~rr . Hurphy. \vas sitting on that side of the Rouse when we criticized government at t~at tL~e for its expenditures~ And I just ~va~ t to say, ~-1r. Chairman, t}lat ;.,rhat I aentioned this morning during this Linerboard mill debate, ~1he re I t.;ould like to see the information given to che House when that bill was passed in this House - chere was no record, no Hansard since that - I would like to have that produced for information of all 0 0(2,/ \.. ------- 5559

May 2, 1977, Tape 1997, Page 1 -- apb MR. MURPHY: the members to see what form that debate took, and the great hopes that were raised at that time. Now only the other night I saw an excerpt from a speech given by the former Premier where the cost of this, I think, was going to be $72 million. Now I understand there has been some $300 million put into the linerboard mill.

There were supposed to be 9,000 jobs created and as far as I can understand I do not think there were 9,000 jobs created through the bleachad, the non-bleached and the paper mill and the - if we like we can refer - that is why I would like some of these things brought forward, Mr. Chairman. MR. SMALL~700D: Would the hen. minister allow me to remind him that what was shown on CBC T.V. the other night was an extract of the speech I made about a different mill altogether? Not the linerboard mill. Another thing altogether. MR. MURPHY: A different mill? MR. SMALLWOOD: Another mill that never was built. MR.

MURPHY: It bore no resemblance to facts and I thought it must be something different. That is why - HR. SMALL~700D: The number of employees, I said, would be about 6,000 which is about right. MR. MURPHY: Nine thousand I heard, Sir, but my ears may be wrong. But all I am saying is this, Mr. Chairman, just to clear my position, I would like for the debate to come out when all these things were discussed. We would have been something less than patriotic Newfoundlanders if we voted against these bills and you will find that they did get the support of the House at that time. That was constituted. 5560

May 2, 1977, Tape 1997, Page 2 -- apb• MR. MURPHY: But now we are reaping the harvest Sir, that was sown some few years ago, as far as we are concerned,and I am just replying in a direct reference to me. Before this linerboard mill is debated I would like to get the Hansard or even the tapes played so that some of the newer members who are here could hear just what transpired and the reason why this mill was created and why we are the black­ guards for having to shut it down. MR. CHAIRMAN(YOUNG): The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: I think the minister has made an excellent suggestion.

I was a member of the House as was the hon. gentleman and ~ number of others when the linerboard Bill was debated. As I recall it the then Minister of Justice, who in fact is the present Minister of Justice, and Mr. Clyde Wells and Mr. John Crosbie, who were then ministers in the administration, spoke, presented that bill at second reading. I think my friend from Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) will confirm my recollection and my friend from LaPoile (Mr. Neary)