LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, 18 June, 1985. Time - 8:00 p.m. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - CIVIL SERVICE MA. CHAIRMAN, C. Santoa: Committee, please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply shall be dealing with the Estimates of the Civil Service Commis sion. We shall begin with a statement from the Honourable Minis ter responsible for the Commission. HON. A. MACKLING: Thank you. Mr. Chairperson, in introducing the'85-86 Budget Estimates for the Civil Service Commission, I would draw attention to the Sixty­ seventh Annual Report of the Commission, which was introduc ed in the House on March 25, 1985. This report explains the organization, programs and activities of the Civil Service Commission over the 1984 calendar year.

I would also draw the committee's attention to the Supplementary Estimates Information which has been produc ed by the Civil Service Commission again this year in order to provide additional detailed information and clarification of the print ed Main Estimates. I would digress here for a second. The Clerk's Office has the supplementary information. Regrettably, I wasn't in the House at 2 o'c lock to distribute and file that information. I have given the critic a copy of that supplementary information. I understand the Clerk will then get the copies, Mr. Chairman, and distribute them.

Thi s informatio n provi des supp lementary backgr ound, organization program and fin ancial information designed to assist members with the Estimates review now before us. The Budget Est im ates for the Civil Service Commission are comprised of three main components. These include the salary and operating expenses of the Commission as set out in Item 1; the government's contribution to various Civil Service benefit plans as listed under Item 2; and the levy for health and post­ secondary education as set forth in Item 3.

By way of a very general summ ary, it can be seen that the major area of inc rease is associated with the government's contributions required to fund the various government benefit plans. The majority of these plans are fixed through statute or collective agreement with the result that there is little or no discretion which can be exercised In terms of their cost. The salary and operating expenditures of the Civil Service Commission, as set forth in Item 1, indicate the inclusion of a new Initiative under the heading of Career Development Program.

This program sets aside six staff years to be utilized in equipping selected candidates from the four affirmative target groups with the required knowledge and skills to enable them to complete successfully and function effectively within positions at the supervisory level. As has been noted, all salary costs associated with this program are Recoverable from Other Appropriations.

Organizational information, distribution of staff among the various divisions and branches of the Civil Service Commission, and detailed financial information are contai ned within the supplementa ry in formation package prepared for legislative review. lt is hoped that this information will prove useful and assist the members with the review of the Estimates now before us. With those brief remarks, Mr. Chairperson, I offer myself to the committee. MA. CHAIRMAN: As is customary with the committee, the leading critic of the opposition party may now present his reply to the Min ister's opening statement.

The Member for St. Norbert. MA. G. MEACIEA: I will pass on that, Mr. Chairman. We can move Into the Estimates. MA. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. The members of the departmental staff are cordially Invited to find and take their respective places. We shall begin Immediately with consideration of Budget Item No. 1.(a)

(1) Civil Service Commission, Admini stration and Finance: Salaries; 1.(a)

(2) Other Expenditures - the Member for St. Norbert. MA. G. MEACIEA: Mr. Chairman, I would ask the Minis ter, what is the average salary of a member of the Civil Service in Manitoba? HON. A. MACKLING: Approximately $26,000.00. MA. G. MEACIEA: Mr. Chairman, I would ask the Mi nister to confirm that he, or thi s Civil Service Commission, received an analysis of the requirement for bilingual staff which would have been required under Bill 115 of the government's French language package that was prepared by the Ma nitoba Government Employees Association In February of 1984? HON. A.

MACKLING: The question is whether or not we did an analysis. MA. G. MEACIEA: Whether you received an analysis that was done by the Manitoba Government Employees Association? HON. A. MACKLING: I'm not aware of any study having been received from the MGEA. MA. G. MEACIEA: When did the Minister assume responsibility for this Civil Service Commission? HON. A. MACKLING: January, but I don't know the specific date. HON. J. STOAIE: January 30th. HON. A. MACKLING: No, that's a good guess Jerry. 3088

Tueaday, 18 June, 1985 1t was January, I don't recall the exact date. If that's critical, I'll - (Interjection) - January 30th, close enough. Fair enough, it Is an auspicious day in any event. A MEMBER: Auspicious, not suspicious. HON. A. MACKLING: Not suspicious, auspicious. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, as the Minister respon sibl e for the Civil Service Commission in relationship with the Manitoba Government Employees Association, would the Minister undertake to obtain from them, and table in this committee or, if this committee is completed, In the Legislature, a copy of the report or analysis that was done by the Manitoba Government Employees Association with respect to Bill 11 5? HON. A. MACKLING: Well, if the Manitoba Government Employees Association has given it to government, I have not reason to withhold that; but if they haven't given it to me or my department, I would have to ask them for it.

I would think that the honourable member, or anyone, might want to ask them directly if they haven't tendered it to us. MR. CHA IRMAN: The Minister of Tourism. HON. J. STORIE: Yes, Mr. Chairman, for the edification of the Member for St. Norb ert, the Ma nitoba Government Employees Association did put on record on a number of occasions, both their views with respect to Bill 11 5 and the Implications of that bill on their membership. There were a variety of numbers bandied about during that debate.

I'm certain that the member is searching for a number that would justify the Leader of the Opposition's suggestion made on the Provincial Affairs Program on Saturday night, and I don't think he'll be able to find that. Certainly he is at liberty to contact Mr. Doer or anyone else from the MGEA, but from my recollection the numbers that they considered appropriate were put on the record and he might be advised to review the lengthy debates that took place, or the presentations that took place, in September of 1983. MR. G. MERCIE R: Mr.

Chairman, is the Minister then undertaking to enquire from government, as he puts it, I take it that's other members of Cabinet, as to whether or not the government received a copy of that' report, whether his predecessor may have received a copy of that report, and if he obtained the same, he will table same in this committee or in the House? HON. A. MACKL ING: I really have indicated that if my department, Civil Service Commission, my department as Minister of Labour, if I have such a report from the MGEA within the department I'll be happy to provide that information to the member.

But staff indicate to me that they're not aware of an MGEA analysis provided to us. Maybe they have such an analysis, but they didn't formally provide it to us, they used it as my colleague, Minister of Tourism has indicated, in their presentations. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, just for the record, I am referring to an analysis that was dated February 1984. Mr. Chairman, to move on then, could the Minister outline the terms of the new contract with the Manitoba Government Employees Association? HON. A. MACKLING: Yes, I'll ask staff to give me the highlights that I can review with him.

I don't think you want a detailed review of the contract, I think you want the highlights of any of the changes that were effected in the bargaining process. I'll just take a moment because it is in a printed form. Yes, staff has given me the highlights and I can review them very briefly. The negotiations resulted in agreement for a three-year contract that commenced September 28, 1984, for a 12 -month period at 0 percent; then a 3 percent rise for the next 12 months and in the third year the cost-of-living index for that third year.

There was an undertaking that during the course of the contract period, there would be no discharge or early termination of any permanent staff, or no layoff. There were some benefit improvements including a one­ week additional vacation during the first 12 -month period. There was some improvement in the dental plan and in the long-term disability entitlement. There were some other provisions, the agreement that may be of interest, the inclusion of a commitment in respect to the appointment of a committee dealing with pay equity, among other things. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, for the first year each employee is entitled to take an additional week's vacation, is that correct? HON. A. MACKLING: Correct. MR. G. MERCIER: Wha t does that cost out as? HON. A. MACKLING: There are differences of view in respect to the calculation. From our calculation .6 percent, that is a little over 1 /2 of 1 percent. Those are the hard replacement costs. Someone takes a week's holiday and in order to provide for that service the extent that there has to be someone engaged to do that work, that is our cost. MR. G. MERCIER: That is just a 1-o ver-52 calculation. What is the other opinion? HON. A.

MACKLING: Well, the other opinion, of course, the MGEA what it is worth to their employees and they calculate, I believe, that if they got the pay for that time it would be 2 percent. But I repeat, from our perspective, it cost us . 6 percent. MR. G. MERCIER: Well, Mr. Chairman, I suppose it cost .6 percent if the government finds that it does not have to replace these members of the Civil Service while they are away on this extra week of vacation, could the Minister indicate what the experience is in replacement of people who are taking an additional weeks vacation? HON. A.

MACKLING: If we didn't have to replace any of the workers, it would be zero percent, but to the extent that we have to provide additional people or provide overtime or whatever to compensate for that time, it is .6 percent. 3089

TUeeday, 18 June, 1985 MR. G. MERCIER: What is the experience then in replacement of people who are taking an extra week of vacation? HON. A. MACKLING: About a third of the work force would require that in their positions they would have to be replaced during the week, so we are looking at .6 percent. · MR. G. MERCIER: About a third have to be replaced? HON. A. MACKLING: Yes. MR. G. MERCIER: A cynic might ask . HON. A. MACKLING: No, don't ask that, Gerry. MR. G. MERCIER: . . . whether or not you could get away with them for another week, or another week on that. MR.

CHAIRMAN: What would a cynic answer to such a question by a cynic? HON. A. MACKLING: Not being a cynic, I can't answer that. No, it's hypothetical, I will plead, Mr. Chairperson. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, in the third year the increase will depend upon the cost-of-living index. Wh en is that calculated and applied? HON. A. MACKLING: lt will be the Winnipeg cost price index on the previous 12 months. MR. G. MERCIER: Previous 12 months. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister. HON. A. MACKLING: No, that's all right. I was just getting further elaboration which is a little more technical; that's all. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, could the Minister expand on the government's obligation not to lay off any employees, I take it during the whole term of this contract? Is there a precise number of employees agreed to as at the beginning of the contract in that number, that no employee employed as at September 28, 1984, should be laid off for three years? HON. A. MACKLING: I will just check the wording of the agreements for that. Usually I don't have to succumb to this, but it is fine print. I will read the two sections of the memorandum agreement that are applicable. The whole

section is entitled "Layoffs" and the provision is that during the term of this memorandum, and it is March 15,'85 to September 25, '87, " ... no layoffs of regular employees, no layoffs of term employees who have accumulated more than 12 months of service, no layoffs of departmental employees who have accumulated more than 12 continuous months of service unbroken by layoff. This layoff provision does not apply to term employees whose term has expired.

However, it is the government's intention to maintain the employment of those employed in term positions where the need for the job functions is expected to continue, term employees whose services are terminated following the completion of a specific job for which they have been specifically employed." MR. G. MERCIER: The 1984 report indicates on Page 9 that total employment for 1984 was 17,059. Can the Minister indicate what the total employment was in 1981? HON. A. MACKLING: '81? MR. G. MERCIER: Yes. HON. A.

MACKLING: If the honourable member will turn to Page 29 of the report, there is a comparative employment chart and it provides the numbers for 1980 to 1984 inclusive. - (Interjection) - The Annual Report, do you have a copy? MR. G. MERCIER: Well, I have one that was tabled before, I have both, thanks. But I have a previous one that I think the Minister tabled in the House, it was not, as printed. HON. A. MACKLING: That was a photocopy; maybe you haven't got the pages numbered. Page 29. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, we have to find the - I'm working from the photocopy that was tabled In the House - but in that photocopy, on Page 32 of that copy, they refer to competitions by departments and in 1984 there were 641 competitions, that was up a bit from 1983 when there were 437; but down considerably from the years 1979, 1980, 1981 and even 1982; could the Minister explain the reasons why the number of competitions have been reduced significantly. HON. A.

MACKLING: Yes, just before endeavouring to provide an answer to that question, I just draw the honourable member 's attention to Page 22 of the printed Annual Report and you'll find the comparison's there for the years. The honourable member refers to the reduction in competitions between the previous years and the significant reductions in 1983, 1984, and the answer , as I understand it, is that there was considerable control placed on a new hirings and, therefore, a reduction in competitions took place. Then one other factor, Mr.

Chairman, is that due to the economy there weren't the same number of turnovers, the same number of people that were leaving; people were holding on to the jobs they had. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, just for confirmation, I take it the Minister in these Estimates really only wants to deal with Civil Service positions, not with the number of Order-in-Council appointments. Does the Minister deal with those in this set of Estimates, or should that be done under Executi ve Council? HON. A. MACKLING: I would be prepared to deal with them if I could, but I don't think that I would have the information.

I think properly the Clerk of the Executive Council would be the person who would have all that information. 3090

Tuesday, 18 June, 1885 MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, can the Minister indicate the total number of female employees - to pick a date - as of the end of 1984? HON. A. MACKLING: I can give the percentage, Mr. Chairman. In 1984 42 percent of the total Civil Service were female and, obviou sly, 58 percent male, as compared to 41.9 percent in 1982 and 58.1 percent in that same year. MR. G. MERCIER: Pardon me, 41 percent? HON. A. MACKLING: No, it was 41.9 in 1982 and in 1984 it was 42 percent female. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, I'm not sure where I got this, but I know I did request from the previous Minister and I did receive a letter from this Minister on February 22, 1985, comparative information with respect to males and females in the Manitoba Civil Service. I can give this to the Minister. it is an employee analysis by component, by salary Interval, females, Compensation Services, Novem ber 1, 1982. Is Compensation Services within the Civ il Service Commission? HON. A. MACKLING: Yes. MR. G.

MERCIER: Well, it indicates that total female employees accounted for in numbers, 6,869, which was 49 percent of total employees as of November 1, 1982. I'll give this to the Minister because the statistics that he is now giving indicate he is talking about 41.9 percent female in 1982 and 42 percent in 1984. I wonder where the discrepancy is. HON. A. MACKLING: Apparently that's without the inclusion of departmental employees. Seasonal employees - there are more males that are engaged for seasonal and casual employees. So that overall changes the balance. MR. G.

MERCIER: Well, what would the comparative statistic be then in November 1, 1984, with that sheet? HON. A. MACKLING: I'm given to understand that as at March 4, 1985, the comparison between males and females or females and males, without the departmentals, it is 49 percent female and 51 percent male. With the departmentals included, it is 42 percent female, 58 percent male. MR. G. MERCIER: So, in effect, eliminating the casual departmentals, the figure is unchanged from November of 1982? HON. A. MACKLING: Relatively speaking, yes. MR. G.

MERCIER: I wish I had a copy of that made because it is an interesting document in that it points out where the females are employed in government and classifications which is just as, if not more important than simply the number of females. I wonder, Mr. Chairman, if the Minister has other information which indicates an up-to-date analysis of females by - well, to use their jargon - salary Interval, I guess.

Of course, what I am interested in know"lng is whether or not women have been moving up in the various wage classifications and whether there has been any improvment, not just in their numbers, but in the level of employment in the Civil Service. HON. A. MACKLING: I can give th e honourable member some comparisons in annualized salary female/ male. In 1973, the female average salary was 69 percent of the average male salary in the Civil Service. In 1982, that percentage had moved up to 81 percent; and then in 1984 it had moved up another 1 percent to 83 percent. MR. G.

MERCIER: That's a percentage of the Civil Service average. HON. A. MACKLING: Yes, that's a percentage of the Civil Service average salary. In 1984, it was 83 percent. If you want it as the female average salary as a percentage of the male average salary within the Civil Service, In 1973, it was 55.2 percent; In 1982, 70.2 percent; in 1984, 73.1 percent. MR. G. MERCIER: Well, Mr. Chairman, I am looking at the material that the Minister provided to me on February 22, 1985 in response to my request to his predecessor on September 28, 1984.

In this material it indicates that the female average salary increased from 1982 to 1984 from $20, 16 5 to $23, 396; and the male average went from, in 1982, $28,745 to $32,050 in 1984. Although the Minister is saying that the female average annual salary, as a percentage of the male average annual salary, has increased from 70.2 percent to 73 percent, it would appear that the male average, and certainly in the number of dollars, has gone up more than the female average. Am I correct? HON. A.

MACKLING: I am advised that there is an element of catch-up in this, that the female average went up 265 percent, as against the male average of 17 5 percent. MR. G. MERCIER: Could you explain that? HON. A. MACKLING: I was afraid you would ask. In 19 73 the female average of the Civil Service average was $6,422 - that's the female average; in 1984 that average was $23,411, it's an increase of 265 percent. In the same periods, 1973 as against 1984, the male Civil Service average went from $9,342 - pardon me, I will take the bottom one - from $11,636 to $32,032, an increase of 175 percent. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, I was going from 1982 to 1984. The actual number of dollar increase for males is greater than the dollar increase for females. Is that not correct? HON. A. MACKLING: it's because, even though it's a higher percentage in respect to female, you are taking it on a smaller base, therefore, it comes to a larger dollar figure. That's the problem with percentage increases, flat percentage increases. 3091

TUesday, 18 June, 1985 MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, what has been the government's commitment to affirmative action with respect to female employees in the Civil Service? HON. A. MACKLING: Women are part of the targeted group in the Affirmative Action Program, and the MGEA and the government have developed an Affirmative Action Program involving the establ ishment of committees department by department.

Those committees have been established as at this date and they will be developing specific programs, department by department, to identify the targets in each department and strive for a program of implementation. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, in the material provided to me by the Minister in response to my questions, there is a comparison of female representation by component group prepared by Compensation Services, Novemb er, 1984, which compares 1982 to 1984, the total female representation has gone up from 41.9 percent in 1982 to 42 percent in 1984, an increase of .1 percent.

Wh ere has the program gone wrong? HON. A. MACKLING: The program has been under implementation, as I had indicated to the honourable member, after agreement was reached with the MGEA in respect to the Affirmative Action Program. lt required the organization of the committees, and it has taken some time to develop and organize the committees. They will be functioning throughout this year and I anticipate seeing more significant results as a result of the committees functions. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Wolseley. MS. M. PHILLIPS: Thank you. I would just like to add, Mr.

Chairperson, that when one is looking at percentages and numbers of women in the Civil Service, the success of an Affirmative Action Program should be judged on which level the women are in, not whether there are more women, and what kind of movement there is between traditional occupations and non­ traditional occu pations, and What kind of upward mobility there is between clerical components and management components. So it certainly isn't just in the number of women, and it's not only in the number of women who are progressing into management, because of course everyone can't end up as a manager.

But it's also, when you're comparing the average salaries, one has to look at the number of women who are in which classification and the kind of movement from one classification to anoth er, because classifications might be similar in status, except that if it's a female-dominated classification it could have a very much lower average salary than a classification that is a traditionally male classification, based on the historic outcome of bargaining over the years.

And also we have to take into account the differences when we're looking at women's averages and men's averages, the impact that percentage bargaining has had on those averages as to across-the-board bargaining. Because if, for instance, when you look '73 women's average of being $6,500 approximately and you take a percentage increase on that, versus the same percentage increase on a male average of 11.5, you're going to end up with quite a different outcome in terms of actual dollars, when you start with a lower base.

So in both cases, you have to look at the salaries and the impact of across-the-board versus percentage and the movement of women upward in classifications as well as a cross-classifications, into non-traditional classifications. lt's in those kind of terms, the success of affirmative action should be judged, not just on whether there's 50 percent of each sex in the total because they might not be in the higher paying occupations. HON. A. MACKLING: I just wanted to thank the honourable member for the rather full answer to the question.

I just wanted to indicate briefly the point that I wanted to make that the numbers are not as critical as upward mobility, specific analysis of the target groups is under way in every departmental committee now. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I believe I said that earlier and the Member for Wolseley agrees with me.

That's why I would ask the Minister , the sheet that I showed him earlier, as of November 1, 1982, that shows the classifications and salary levels of women in the Civil Service, does he have an up-to-date analysis that would show whether or not there are any Improvements in the numb er of women serving at higher classifications?

Now to be fair, what the Minister would have to do is index these wage classifications because to put them on the proper and the same comparative basis to November 1, 1982, does he have that information so we could look and see whether there has been any improvement in the number of women in the Civil Service or roughly the same based on his previous answers, but have they improved on a comparative basis since November 1, 1982? HON. A.

MACKLING: That 's exactly the kind of undertaking that is involved in the Affirmative Action Committee endeavours, to develop a specific analysis of the numbers and identify the areas for upward mobility, department by department. MR. G. MERCIER: But, Mr. Chairman, could the Minister answer the question: does he have comparative information, up-to-date information, to this material prepared as of November 1, 1982, by the Compensation Services Branch, so that we could look at and see whether or not there has been any significant improvement of any kind in the level of jobs served by women in the Civil Service?

HON. A. MACKLING: No, I've indicated that's the work of the committees; the committees are working at that. They're reviewing and developing that data base, and a year from now I'll be able to give the honourable member an evaluation showing what they determined and what their progress has bee n. MR. G. MERCIER: But I'd like to know what it is right now or the latest date that the Civil Service Commission did, so that we could see what happened in the last 3092

TuudaJ, 18 June, 1985 two or two-and-a-half years and see whether there has been any improvement. Su rely, if they did this as November 1, 1982, it must be available now. HON. A. MACKLING: I'm advised that I don't have that available now or I'd give it to the honourable member. MR. G. MERCIER: Would the Minister undertake to request the Civil Service Commission to prepare a comparative basis, keeping In mind the Increase in salary levels that has taken place, so that we have a proper comparative basis?

By that I mean, if the $40,000 to $44,999 may now be 4 or 5 or 6 percent higher, whatever it is, whatever the wage increase has been, so that we compare the proper classifications with the proper classifications as of November 1, 1982, I wonder if he would ask them to prepare that information and could we have it within, say, two or three days. HON. A. MACKLING: I'm advised that it can be done and I don't know just how quickly I'll have that. But I'm sure that it will confirm the continuing necessity for the program that I've outlined that department by department the needs are being identified.

There's no question but there is work to be done by each committee and that the stats I believe will justify that. MR. G. MERCIER: That's one reason, Mr. Chairman, why I want the information because this government was elected on a commitment in the fall of 19 81, for example, to introduce equal pay for work of equal value. And nearly four years later we will find when the Minister provides the information that I've requested that there's been no significant improvement of any kind in the level of classification which women are employed in the Civil Service.

I think he's acknowledged that by saying that the statistics that will come forward will demonstrate the necessity of continuing attention to this problem. Hopefully, it will be not of the same kind that it's received during the last three-and-a-half years and that there will be some results. Mr. Chairman, is the Minister then undertaking to provide that comparison to me just as quickly as possible and could he, perhaps in consultation with his staff, indicate how long that will take? HON. A. MACKLING: The advice I have is one to two weeks. MR. G. MERCIER: I thank the Minister, Mr.

Chairman. for that commitment to provide that additional information. MR. CHAIRM AN: 1. (a)(1) - The Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAY: Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman, I wanted to raise a matter of some concern. A director from the Department of Northern Affairs who had submitted his resignation back earlier this year and then a week later took a severe heart attack and subsequently wished to withdraw his resignation, and during the Northern Affairs Estimates I asked the Minister why this individual had not been reinstated?

The Minister ind icated that he says ther e was a consu ltation done again with the Civil Service Commission, the MGEA and also the staff relations officer, and they have all made the recommendation that we should not withdraw the resignation. Later on it was indicated that the Minister said, I am informed it was not a question of him having the ability to carry out the work because this subject is in a grievance procedure, all we can say is that we are advised by staff relations that we could not withd raw the resignation.

I'm wondering, who defends this individual who wants to be reinstated after it has been brought to our attention that the Civil Service and the MGEA both agreed that he shouldn't be reinstated, yet his matter is before a grievance. 1 guess what 1 am asking, Mr. Minister, is: who is really defending this individual to try and get some kind of work back, even though it may not necessarily be the same position he had earlier? HON. A. MACKLING: Well, I'm given to und erstand that

Section 18 .01 of the Collec tive Bargaining Agreement which makes provision for the application or the settlement of issues dealing with resignations, provides for an employee with the approval of the employing authority withdrawing his resignation. The employing authority, as I gather, did not agree to the withdrawal of the resignation, but pursuant to the Collec tive Bargaining Agreement the worker can exercise his rights to grieve the grievance procedure and that is what's happening at the present time. MR. D. GOURLAY: What kind of a chance would this individual have?

He is already beaten before he starts, isn't he? HON. A. MACKLING: Well, if the matter is open and involved in a grievance procedure right now, to talk about his chances - his or her chances - I think it would be improper for me to answer that question. MR. D. GOURLAY: Well, even under a hypothetical situation, to me this seems like a useless exercise to put anybody through. If the game Is over, tell him. HON. A.

MACKLING: lt's up to the third party who may be called upon to arbitrate the grievance to decide whether or not there has been a violation of the agreement, so it is not open for me to say at this stage whether it is a good grievance or it's a bad grievance. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(a)( 1)- the Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, the Minister refers to a formation of departmental committees to deal with the Affirmative Action Program. Are there written criteria for the operation of these committees? HON. A. MACKLING: Yes, there are.

Under the Labour Estimates, under Affirmative Action, the director of the Affirmative Action will be here and can probably provide me with fuller responses to the honourable member's questions. If you want to do it under that heading, I will endeavour to answer questions at this juncture as well. But there are written criteria, yes. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, is this program not developed and implemented through the Civil Service 3093

Tuftday, 18 June, 1985 Commission? Do they not establish overall criteria to be used by departmental committees? HON. A. MACKLING: There is a separate Affirmative Action Directorate that reports directly to the Minister . The Civil Service Commission certainly is involved in working with the committees, enhancing the work of the committees, but the Affirmative Action director reports directly to the Minister. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, not all of the departmental hiring is done by the individual department. I believe some departments have not delegated all of their hiring to the various departments.

I find it somewhat difficult to comprehend how an overall Affirmative Action Program is implemented on a department by department basis without involvement of the Civil Service Commission, involved in the overall program. Surely, if it is to be effective, it should be done through the Civil Service Commission. HON. A. MACKLING: The Civil Service Commission is fully involved in the Affirmative Action process and Mr. Hart sits on the steering committee and is very much involved in the full process. But the policy direction comes through the Affirmative Action directory. MR. G.

MERCIER: Is the Minister saying he would prefer to deal with this Affirmative Action Program in his Labour Estimates, that he is Minister responsible for implementing this overall program in the Civil Service? HON. A. MACKLING: Yes. MR. G. MERCIER: As Minister of Labour? HON. A. MACKLING: Yes. MR. G. MERCIER: Can the Minister indicate how many members of the visible minorities are presently employed in the Civil Service? HON. A.

MACKLING: The short answer is no, that kind of information I guess has never been compiled for us to look at as part of the specific analysis department by department I alluded to earlier. A survey is being made in each department as to the self-identified visible minorities that are there . MR. G. MERCIER: Has the Minister or the department filed a plan and had it approved by the Human Rights Commission? HON. A. MACKLING: Yes. MR. G. MERCIER: lt has been approved? HON. A. MACKLING: Yes. MR. G. MERCIER: Does the Minister have that plan here? HON. A.

MACKLING: Affirmative Action Director will have a copy of that plan when he is here for my Labour Estimates. MR. G. MERCIER: Perhaps the Minister could, in advance of those estimates, provide us with a copy of that plan? HON. A. MACKLING: Yes, I'll ask staff to make note of that and make sure that we have a copy. We'll give you a copy beforehand. MR. G. MERCIER: What is the objective of the plan? HON. A.

MACKLING: The objective of the plan is to ensure that, within the Civil Service, there is engaged In the work force the relevant percentages that would appear appropriate within Manitoba, as a whole, of the target groups: Native people, handicapped people, women, of course, and visible minorities. MR. G. MERCIER: What are those percentages that the Minister is referring to? HON. A. MACKLING: I don't know whether staff here have the percentages . The Affirmative Action Director will have them with him when I have him with me. I would be guessing at the numbers right now, guessing on my recollection of the numbers.

I have a copy of the Affirmative Action policy statement that perhaps you want me to read into the record. I can make a copy available to the member. MR. G. MERCIER: Is this the one dated June 7, 19 83? HON. A. MACKLING: Yes. MR. G. MERCIER: The Minister doesn't recall the percentages? HON. A. MACKLING: Well, I think I can take a run at them. I believe, the visible minorities is 6 percent; the physically disabled is 7 percent; NatiYe people 10 percent; and, of course, women 50 percent. MR. G.

MERCIER: And the Minister, I believe to use his answers the other day in question period, Is identifying this as a 20-year program to establish numbers of these groups within the Civil Service? HON. A. MACKLING: No, what I indicated is that there is no doubt that this program, which is a program that will work, not only from the top, but from the bottom up, will require an extensive time in which to fully implement. lt is estimated that an outside time frame maybe as much as 20 years to fully complete, but that Is an estimate only.

I fully expect that the percentages that I alluded to are attainable in a much shorter period of time, maybe not perfected in each category as quickly as others. They do involve a significant number of people. If you estimate that the Civil Service round figures at 17,000, it involves 1,700 Native people, 1, 190 physically disabled people, and 1,020 visible minorities and, of course, it being 50 percent women, you divide the 17 ,000 accordingly- 8,500. lt is expected that there can be significant progress made. lt is a sheer guess that it may take that period of time, but the committees 3094

Tuesday, 18 June, 1885 will develop specific annual targets after they have made their full assessments and there will be a requirement that these targets be striven for and attained. Included in the Affirmative Action Program Is a requ irement that the Deputy Ministers be fully accountable for Affirmative Action in the departments. MR. G. MERCIER: In the policy statement of the government of June 7, 1983, it was indicated that the government would design a plan that would include Outr each Recruitme nts, Special Training in Management Development Programs, etc.

How much money is being bud geted for special training in management development programs during the past two years, and how much is in this bud get? HON. A. MACKLING: The specific amounts will be determined and included In each department's action plan. MR. G. MERCIER: Is the Minister saying that there has been no money budgeted to date and that there is none budgeted In this fiscal year but that, depending on the work of the committees, there may be money budge ted in the next fiscal year? HON. A.

MACKLING: There are monies targeted for emplo yee development and that money, and any bridging, will be used to carry out the program. MA. G. MEACIEA: Has any money been spent on special training in management develop programs in this Affirmative Action Program to date? HON. A. MACKLING: I will read a number of items concerning the Civil Service Commission's support to the Affirmative Action Program. "A major emphasis has been placed on training departmental co-ordina tors in both union and management representatives of the departmental Affirmative Action Committees.

There were 21 training sessions held by Staff Training and Development Branch of the Civil Service Commission involving some 212 employees. A review of classification standards has been undertaken in order to eliminate systemic barriers within the employment system and provide Affirmative Action target groups easier access to employment within the Civil Service. Affirmative Action self­ declaration forms are being provided to all applicants applying to Civil Service competitions.

The Personnel Record System Is introducing a program to acco mmo date the tracking and monitoring of Affirmative Action target gr oups throughout the government service. "A career development program for Affirmative Action target groups is being introduced in this fiscal year to equip selected candidates with the requisite knowledge and skills to enab le them to compete successfully and function effectively within positions at the supervisory level.

"Within the development and training programs provided for, there is an extensive list of management programs, human resource management programs, supervisory development programs, support staff development programs, training for trainers programs, commun ications programs and learning process programs." I didn't list each one of the various programs under those heads, but, as you can see, there is an enormous amount of training involved in all of these programs. MA. G.

MEACIEA: it would appear from what the Minister said that the bulk of any monies expended to date have been on training existing personnel to develop a program. Would that be correct? HON. A. MACKLING: As part of the Implementation process, yes. MA. G. MEACIEA: No one has been hired under the program to date? HON. A. MACKLING: I am sorry, I didn't hear. MA. G. MEACIEA: There has been no one hired within these various groups to date as part of this program? HON. A. MACKLING: No, I understand that hiring takes place all the time. MA. G.

MEACIEA: What are the cu rrent numbers of employees that are members of visible minorities or physically handicapped? HON. A. MACKLING: The honourable member asked me that question earlier, and I Indicated that I don't believe that kind of statistic had been compiled in the past. Committees are now doing that kind of analysis. MA. G. MEACIEA: What is the Minister's, or the government's definition of a member of a visible minority? HON. A.

MACKLING: We have a definition which we have taken to the Ethnic Council who have Indicated approval for it, and I believe the Hu man Rights Commission as well, and the definition is black, Asian, Oriental, East Indian. MR. G. MEACIEA: That's it? HON. A. MACKLING: And any other person who declares themselves to be of a visible minority. MR. G. MEAC IEA: There was one that was black . HON. A. MACKLING: Asian. The examples only are black, Asian, Oriental, East Indian. MA. G. MEACIEA: And anyone who declares himself to be a member of a visible minority? HON. A. MACKLING: Yes. MA. G.

MEACIEA: On what basis did the Minister come up with that definition? HON. A. MACKLING: In consultation with the Ethnic Council. 3095

TUesday, 18 June, 1985 MR. G. MERCIER: This is all set out, I take it, in more detail in the affirmative action plan that the Minister undertook to provide me with? HON. A. MACKLING: Correct. MR. G. MERCIER: lt may very well be available. Could he indicate what page of the annual report shows the number of contract employees? HON. A. MACKLING: Page 27 at the top, Table 2, shows "All Departmen ts" and then "Contract Employment" there. MR. G. MERCIER: Can the Minister indicate the present number of contract employees? HON. A. MACKLING: The present being as this very date? MR. G. MERCIER: Yes. HON. A.

MACKLING: I don't have that with staff. We can obtain that. MR. G. MERCIER: Has it increased since December? HON. A. MACKLING: The estimate is that it's remained approximately the same. MR. G. MERCIER: Is Mr. Lionel Orlikow on contract with the government? HON. A. MACKLING: I don't have that information; I don't know. MR. G. MERCIER: Was he? HON. A. MACKLING: We are not certain, no. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, the Leader of the Opposition filed an Order for Return - it must be a couple of years ago - for details of a contract by the government with Mr. Orllkow that has never been responded to.

Would the Civil Service Commission not be aware of that information? HON. A. MACKLING: Contract employees are not hired by the Civil Service Commission, they are hired department by department. Staff here do not have Information on any specific contract that may have been entered into by a department. MR. G. MERCIER: Is the Civil Service Commission not concerned with an increase in 48 contracts in one year? HON. A. MACKLING: I am advised that the bulk of those contracts would be articling law graduates and New Careers' participants. MR. G. ME RCIER: Mr.

Chairman, is there not a provision in the contract with MGEA with respect to giving priority on the basis of seniority to new jobs? I'm just wondering how the Affirmative Action Program deals with that principle in the contract. HON. A. MACKLING: The MGEA are full partners in the Affirmative Action Program. Any concerns about seniority are certainly handled with full involvement of the MGEA. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, the annual report at the beginning deals with conflict of interest policy. lt refers to a policy effective March 1, 19 84.

After March 1, 19 84 there were a number of items raised, including the Assistant Deputy Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology, Zorianna Hyworon, raised last spring and she was apparently told to put her private business interest into a blind trust. There were other instances of conflicts of interest and I would ask the Minister if there has been a further review, because I believe it was und ertaken at the time there would be a further review of the conflict-of-interest guidelines in the light of that incident and others. HON. A.

MACKLING: I am given to understand that a review of the policy has been und ertaken by the Civil Service Commission staff with recommendations made regarding its continued development, refinement and in administration within the Government Services, in discussions with the Provincial Government auditor to develop refinement of the guidelines. and particularly, assistance in developing guidel ines in respect to divestment and how that process can be properly proceeded with. MR. G. MERCIER: Do those guidelines just apply to members of the Civil Service and not to excluded employees of the government?

If so, are there separate conflict of interest gu idelines for excluded employees? HON. A. MACKLING: General application. MR. G. MERCIER: lt applies to everyone, whether you're a deputy minister or a member of the Civil Service. HON. A. MACKLING: Correct. MR. G. MERCIER: What is taking so long? This incident occurred a year ago. There was an undertaking at that time to further review the conflict of interest guidelines. HON. A. MACKLING: I'm advised it's already been done. MR. G. MERCIER: Has there been a new conflict-of­ interest policy published then? HON. A. MACKLING: No.

What there has been is direction and advice given to departments in interpreting the existing guidelines. MR. G. MERCIER: Just in general, what

interpretation or direction has been given then as a result of those incidents that occurred? · HON. A. MACKLING: I am given to understand that the department is given assistance in respect to individual concerns as they are identified. There has also been assistance to the departments in 3096

Tuesday, 18 June, 1985 endeavouring to identify potential areas of conflict, and there has been a guideline developed in respect to the divestment procedures to be followed. MR. G. MERCIER: What outside interest is someone in the Civil Service allowed to have then, particularly a person who is, say, an excluded employee, a deputy minister, an assistant deputy minister or a director area? HON. A. MACKLING: Basically, I was going to say, it's really a common-sense principle.

Everything is excluded that does not have any direct or really indirect relationship with their employment wher e any information or benefit from their employment is being applied elsewhere. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, the report indicates that there has been a senior officer classification review covering some 230 positions. The results of this review are expected to be finalized and forwarded to Treasury Board early in the new year in 1985. Has that been done? HON. A. MACKLING: Yes. MR. G. MERCIER: How was that accomplished? Not by Order-In-Council? HON. A. MACKLING: lt was an Order-in-Council, Mr.

Chairperson. MR. G. MERCIER: What generally happened there? HON. A. MACKLING: As a result of the review, there was an upward classification of 21; a lateral move of four; a downward classification of eight; present Incumbent only, 20; no change. 16 8. MR. G. MERCIER: Does the Minister have the details then of those who changed? If so, I wonder if he could undertake to provide those. HON. A. MACKLING: The details are attached to the Order-in-Council. I don't have the particulars here. That's the

summary of the information. MR. G. MERCIER: Would the Minister unde rtake to forward me a copy of the Order-in-Council? HON. A. MACKLING: Su re, we'll do that. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, the regulation, can the Minister indicate how many employees are working past age 65? HON. A. MACKLING: The latest date, December 31, 19 84, 108. MR. G. MERCIER: Can he compare that to the previous two years? HON. A. MACKLING: In 1983, same date, to December 31 st, it was 89. MR. G. MERCIER: That's 100 and ... HON. A. MACKLING: 108 as to 89 - there are 19 more.

That's all under the Civil Service Superannuation Board, so that's Crowns included. MR. G. MERCIER: And this has been going on now for I believe four or five years? HON. A. MACKLING: Correct. MR. G. MERCIER: How many employees are at age 70 in that group? HON. A. MACKLING: The only one that was 70 or older was Mr. Aubrey Newport who did retire on September 20, 1984. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I wasn't asking for names. HON. A. MACKLING: Oh, well, Mr. Newport was the individual who started the whole process; Mr. Newport has become fairly famous in Manitoba. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, I frankly, personally, was not an advocate of mandatory retirement, but those many people who took that position said that if people are going to be allowed to work past the age of 65 that employers - and they would refer to all types of employers - had to more carefully assess the capability of employees prior to reaching the age of 65 in order to make a hard-hearted decision, perhaps even prior to 65, of whether they were capable of carrying out their duties.

The observers said that in many instances the employers would keep employees on to age 65, knowing they had to retire at age 65, so that it was the easiest method of handling the individual situation. But those who said that without a manda tory requirement employers had to, as I say, more carefully assess the capability of employees prior to age 65, and sometimes make that difficult decision, that they were not capable of performing their task. Is the Manitoba Government, as an employer, doing anything differently in assessing the capabilities of employees? HON. A.

MACKLING: Because of the relatively small number of those who have stayed on beyond 65, it hasn't been a problem. The average stay of those who have stayed on past 65 is about nine months. MR. G. MERCIER: Is the Minister saying that the average length of time that employees have stayed on past 65 is only nine months? HON. A. MACKLING: Yes. MR. G. MERCIER: Well, that is a very interesting statistic, Mr.

Chairman. lt's almost as if they were doing it as a matter of principle for which I commend them. it certainly doesn't justify the fears of many who worried about it, thinking that the people would go on working till 75, 80, 85. lt would appear that most of them are simply staying on as a matter of principle, which I don't disagree with. I don't have any other questions under this section. 3097

Tuesday, 18 June, 1985 MR. CHAIRMA N: 1. (a)(1 )-pass; 1.( a)(2)- pass. 1. (b)( 1) Huma n Resource Mana gement Services: Salaries; 1. (b)

(2) Other Expenditures. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, the Minister just passed out the Supplementary Information. I am just trying to locate th is particula r

section in the Supplementary Information. Is it located in there? HON. A. MACKLING: What was the question? MR. G. MERCIER: Is this

section in this supplementary ... ? HON. A. MACKLING: In which section? I didn't hear the question. MR. G. MERCIER: Could the Minister indicate the page of the Suppl ementary Information that this department is located in? HON. A. MACKLING: There is a reference on Page 5. MR. G. MERCIER: That's all? HON. A. MACKLING: And then Page 12. MR. G. MERCIER: I take it this is the area that the Min ister was referring to that might have some expenditures related to the Affirmative Action Program? HON. A. MACKLING: Yes, and Career Development found on the same Page 12. MR. G.

MERCIER: How much money is designated in this area for the Affirmative Action Program? HON. A. MACKLING: If the honourable member would look at

Schedule 3 on Page 5, Item (

c) is Career Development Program and it provides a breakdown of Sala ries, Other Expe nditur es and then ind icates Recoverable from Other Appropriations. All of those sums are involved in Affirmative Action targeted groups. You see, the 195 is returned from departments. MR. G. MERCIER: Nothing in 1. (

d) is included with the Affirmative Action? HON. A. MACKLING: Program staff costs are included in that item and a number of the programs that I alluded to earlier provided for under that head as well. MR . G. MERCIER: How much money within this appropri ation for Human Resource Mana gement Services is designated for the development of the Affirmative Action Program? HON. A. MACKLING: We don't have a breakdown as to the dollars involved. I've indicated it's staff salaries and some of the programs. MR. CHAIRMA N: 1. (b)( 1)-p ass; 1. (b)(2)-p ass. 1. (c)( 1) Career Development Program: Salaries; 1. (c)

(2) Other Expenditures; 1. (c)

(3) Less: Recoverable from Other Appropriations- the Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: This is a new appropriation, Mr. Chairman, I take it that is solely designed to deal with the Affirmative Action Program? HON. A. MACKLING: I have a long explanatory note, but the short answer is, yes. MR. G. MERCIER: Summarize the long explanatory note. HON. A. MACKLING: Well, I'll read the last paragraph. The program is purposely designed initially on a pilot project basis to run parallel with the development of departmental affirmative action plans.

If the program proves successful, then it will serve as a useful vehicle to accelerate the training and advancement of affirmative action group members as they are identified through departmental affirmative action plans. This program is designed to compliment the individual initiatives that will be implemented by departments and expand the horizons and opportunities of target group members to include the government as a whole. I guess it's hard to summarize this whole thing. Let me start from the first paragraph, maybe it's useful to put all this on the record.

The purpose of this program is to increase the equality of representation throughout the Civil Service for women, physically disabled persons, Natives and visible minorities by providing an opportunity for career path development through a special Training in Management Development Programs. Initially, the program will be introduced on a pilot-project basis with from six to ten potential placements on a cost-shared or cost-recovery basis with departments.

The program requires a co­ operative venture with departments to train and provide meaningful work experience for candidates selected internally and externally from the four affirmative action target groups. The work experience will involve temporary assignments in such areas as the Department of Finance (Treasury Board), Policy

Section or Deputy Minister's Office, Align Management Unit, and the various branches of the Civil Service Commission. Civil Service Commi ssion is assu ming costs associated with a design of training courses, the facilitation of work shops, acquisition of learning materials, purchase of consulting services and general administration of the program. Departments are being requested to sponsor candidates who are selected for the program and to assist in the identification of potential assignments.

The identification of potential assignments and selection of candidates is targetted for the fall of 19 85.- and then I dealt with the last paragraph already. MR. G. MERCIER: How much money is in there specifically for training for management development in individuals under the Affirmative Action Program? HON. A. MACKLING: I'm advised they will be receiving full salary while on training; the $195, 000 will cover Salary and then the $63,700, the training. MR. G. MERCIER: The money for Salaries here is for the salaries of people hired by the government under the Affirmative Action Program? 3098

Tuesday, 18 June, 1985 HON. A. MACKLING: Under this specific Career Development Program. MR. G. MERCIER: Would the Minister explain how that's going to work? A position is advertised, there are a number of applicants. I take it a departmental committee that he's referred to selects someone who declares himself or herself to be a member of a visible minority, or disabled, or female; they're then hired for the position, say, may carry a salary of $30,000 and they're paid that salary while they are trained for that position, and they're paid out of this appropriation? HON. A.

MACKLING: Yes, they'll be paid the salary that the job is bulletined for and they will be getting training on the job and in the classroom. Most of the work Is on the assignment that they are slotted with, yes. MR. G. MERCIER: So if the average salary of a member of the Civil Service is $26,000, as the Minister indicated earl ier, this appropriation would provide for the hiring of eight people? HON. A. MACKLING: Yes, it could. MR. G. MERCIER: Would the Minister care to lengthen his 20-year objective? HON. A. MACKLING: This is a pilot project in respect to career development, not merely hiring, Mr. Chairperson.

MR. G. MERCIER: Is this or is this not the Affirmative Action Program that he is referring to? HON. A. MACKLING: No, Mr. Chairperson. MR. G. MERCIER: What program is this then? HON. A. MACKLING: This is a specific initiative of the Civil Service Commission itself for career development within the Civil Service. MR. G. MERCIER: Who are we focusing in on in this program, then? HON. A. MACKLING: The same affirmative action groups.

The idea is for the Civil Service Commission to set up a mechanism and, as I had indicated, it is a pilot project so that they can work out the technique and the system for on-the-job training in respect to affirmative action groups. MR. G. MERCIER: Just so I can distinguish this program then from the Affirmative Action Program, is that the same concept that would be applied to affirmative action where people would be hired and paid while they are being trained? HON. A.

MACKLING: Not necessarily . it could well be that as a result of the affirmative action initiatives departmentally , it is possible to place affirmative action target groups within the department without any additional training. In many instances , affirmative action target groups have been prevented from being considered available for positions because, in some instances the job requirements have been stated far too high. That is one of the factors, and there are many.

I'm sure that there are others that the committees themselves will identify as impediments that target groups have had to deal with, access in respect to disabled persons and so on. The pilot project that I referred to doesn't deal with the broad program but deals with accelerating their movement within the Civil Service. MR. G. MERCIER: So this program would focus on people who are presently members of the Civil Service, not people from outside. HON. A. MACKLING: lt wouldn't exclude an external appointment, but primarily the upward mobility within the Civil Service. MR. G. MERCIER: Pass. MR.

CHAIRMA N: 1. (c)(1)-pass; 1. (c)( 2) -pass; 1.(c)(3)- pass. 1.(d)( 1) Te mporary Assignment Program: Salaries; 1.(d)

(2) Less: Recoverable from Other Appropriations - the Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, how many people are presently employed under the Te mporary Assignment Program? HON. A. MACKLING: Three persons and two assignments have been approved and two positions are currently vacant, available for assignment. MR. G. MERCIER: Who are the present incumbents? HON. A. MACKLING: The present people on this program are Ron Johnstone, Alex Pursaga and Dick Chenier. MR. G. MERCIER: What department Is Mr. Pursaga in? HON. A. MACKLING: He is on assignment with Industry, Trade and Te chnology. MR. G.

MERCIER: Did he come from outside the Civil Service? HON. A. MACKLING: He came from within the Civil Service. MR. G. MERCIER: And Mr. Chenier was with what department before? HON. A. MACKLING: He was with Energy and Mines. MR. G. MERCIER: And where is he working now? HON. A. MACKLING: On assignment with the Manitoba Research Council. MR. G. MERCIER: The Minister mentioned two others whose positions have been improved, he said? 3099

Tuesday , 18 June, 1985 HON. A. MA CKLING: Two assignments have been approved for the Department of Indu stry, Trade and Technology and recruitment is currently in progress. MR. G. MERCIER: From within the Civil Service or outside? HON. A. MA CKLING: lt is open competition, inside the Civil Service and out. MR. G. MERCIER: Has there been any assessment of this program and its merits? HON. A. MACKLING: Well, it seems to be working very well. I don't think there has been a specific assessment made. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (d)(1) -p ass; 1. (d)(2)- pass. 1. (e)

(1) Labour Relations Services: Salaries; 1.(e)

(2) Other Expenditur es -the Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, the Min ister answered some questions a short while ago in the House on the outstanding contract with I believe it is professional engineers employed by the government. Could the Min ister advise whether or not that matter has been resolved? HON. A. MACKLING: lt is still under negotiation, Mr. Chairman. MR. G. MERCIER: When was the last increase for that group? HON. A. MACKLING: 198 2-83. MR. G.

MERCIER: I don't want to get into discussing the negotiation, but I believe the Minis ter ind icated in the House, perhaps he could confirm that this group have turned down the equivalent offers that the Civil Service has received during that same period. HON. A. MA CKLING: I don't think I ind icated that in my answer. I think I had indicated that -really, I don't want to say too much about it since it is under negotiations, but I don't think I indi cated that. MR. G. MERCIER: Are there other bargaining units that received salary increases greater than the MGEA has received since 1982? HON. A.

MACKLING: Most of them have been relatively consistent. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (e)(1) -pass; 1.(e)(2)- pass. Resolution 26: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $3,407,600 for Civil Service, Civil Service Commission, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 1986- pass. HON. A. MA CKLING: Do you want to finish it? Well, there are only a couple of items. MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, I'll call them all. 2.(

a) Civil Service Superannuation Act; 2.(

b) Canada Pension Plan; 2.(

c) Civil Service Group Life Insu rance; 2.(

d) Workers Compensation Board; 2.(

e) Unemployment Ins urance Plan; 2.(

f) Dental Plan; 2.(

g) Long Term Disability Plan -the Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Go item by item, Mr. Chairman? On 2.(a), could the Minis ter give the reason for the increase? HON. A. MA CKLING: Page 30 of the Supplementary Information, Note No. 1 provides this information - a 20.2 percent increase is due to several trends and statutory requi rements affecting the government's liabil ity. These include an increasing numb er of normal and early retirements; (

b) the required the July 1, 1985 indexing of pensions for those persons retired 12 months or more, the estimated price index increase is 6.5 percent; (

c) the full year costs of retirements occurring during the last fiscal year; (

d) the change in pension formula effective August 1, 1984, to calculate pensions on the average salary, the best six years of the last twelve years earnings and reduce the early retirement penalties; (

e) various amendments to The Pension Benefits Act which increase the cost to the employer. MR. G. MERCIER: What was the cost of (e), the amend ments to The Pension Benefits Act? HON. A. MA CKLING: I haven't got a calculator, but approximately $5 million over five years or $1 million per year. MR. G. MERCIER: Could the Mini ster explain the reason for Ma ni toba Regu lation 77 of'85? The regulations to establish a money purchase accounts plan under The Civil Service Superannuation Act. HON. A. MACKLING: That's an easy one, to make it consistent with The Pension Benefits Act. MR. G.

MERCIER: Is that a way of avoiding The Pension Benefits Act? HON. A. MA CKLING: Lt provides greater flexibility to the board where employees are transferring pension monies in or out. MR. G. MERCIER: Is it a way of avoiding The Pension Benefits Act? HON. A. MACKLING: The answer is definitely not. MR. G. MERCIER: Pass. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(a)-pass; 2.(b)- pass; 2.(c)-pass. 2.(d)- pass. MR. G. MERCIER: No, hold it. There is an increase in Workers Compensation Board assessments from $800,000 to $200,000.00. Is that a result of the increase in assessments by the board on employers in Manitoba? HON. A.

MACKLING: Yes, Page 30, Point No. 2, Workers Compensation claims and award sizes have 3100

TUeaday, 18 June, 1985 been increasing over the last few years. Amendments made to The Workers' Compensation Act in 1983 have also increased employer costs by requiring increases in pensions being paid to workers with permanent disabilities, widows of workmen, children and other dependants. MR. G. MERCIER: So it is a result of the increases in assessments by the Workers Compensation Board over the past - 1982? HON. A. MACKLING: Yes, partially. MR. G. MERCIER: No, entirely. Entirely. HON. A. MACKLING: Well, yes, I stand corrected. MR. G.

MERCIER: So it has increased from $775,000 to $2 million - $775,000 in'8 1-82, on Page 33 of the report, to $2 million this year. Would the Government of Manitoba, considering the type of work of its employees, be considered an average employer in Manitoba for purposes of Workers Compensation Board classifications? HON. A. MACKLING: Could you repeat the question, please? I was looking for the reference the honourable member made, and I got sidetracked. MR. CHAIRMAN: Would the mem ber repeat the question, please. MR. G.

MERCIER: The Workers Compensation Board have a number of classifications, depending upon the type of work or the type of industry. Perhaps the Minister can't answer this, but would the Provincial Government, as an employ er, be considered to be at an average classification? By that, I mean not in a classification where the type of work is dangerous or involved in a lot of accidents so, by virtue of that, it pays higher assessment rates. HON. A. MACKLING: The answer is we are consistent with the major public service employers . MR. G.

MERCIER: So we have had about a 125 to 14 0 percent increase in assessments as a result of the Workers Compensation Board policies? HON. A. MACKLING: The answer is, yes, that's the increase. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(d)-pass. 2.(e). MR. G. MERCIER: Wh at is the reason for the decrease, or was the actual less last year? HON. A. MACKLING: I want to go back to 2.(

d) and comment further there because . . . MR. G. MERCIER: I passed that. You have to have leave of the committee. HON. A. MACKLING: Well, I will deal with it under Salaries then. A MEMBER: You don't have a salary. HON. A. MACKLING: Oh, I don't have a salary. Oh, I will deal with it under long-term disability then. MR. G. MERCIER: Okay. You trying to extend your Estimates. HON. A.

MACKLING: No, I just want to make the point that that figure is based on the calculations that are made by the Department of Finance, and it appears that they are calculations that have not always reflected the actual amounts that were required. So this is a su bstantial variance, but it's as a result of their recalculations. A MEMBER: That probably would be the same thing, then, with unemployment insurance? MR. G. MERCIER: Wh at about 2.(e), the decrease in unemployment insurance? HON. A. MACKLING: I am given to understand those are merely the assessments based on the insurable earnings. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 2.(e)-pass. 2.(f) - the Member for St. Norbert . MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, a dental plan or any type of insurance plan to my mind is one that, in the main, covers significant events. In a dental plan, one of the most expensive situations that an employee can find himself in is having a child who requires orthodontic work which is not covered by the plan.

Is there any consideration being given to adjusting the plan, and I am not recommending an increase in the expenditures, but any adjustments in the dental plan for employees that would assist them with that type of expensive dental work? it's something a number of employees have raised. I am not here to negotiate on behalf of MGEA, but it is a concern . it's an insurance plan that doesn't cover one of the most significant dental expenses that a person can receive. HON. A. MACKLING: Yes, the member is just a matter of weeks or months late, because that was negotiated and agreed upon.

The Improvements in the dental plan included orthodontics to a limit of $1 ,200 per lifetime. So that, if there are one or two children, it will likely cover most of it. MR. G. MERCIER: When did that go into effect? MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister, when did it come into effect? HON. A. MACKLING: May of 1985. MR. G. MERCIER: Pass. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(f)-pass; 2.(g)-pass. Resolution 27: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $39,559, 10 0 for Civil 3101

TUe•day, 18 June, 1985 Service, Civil Service Benefit Plans, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1986- pass. Item No. 3. Levy for Health and Post-Secondary Education - the Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Wh at was the actual last year? The reason I ask the question so that maybe the Minister can deal with it at once is, he's indicated there is a zero increase in salary. Now I guess that's up to September 28, 1985, and then there is the 3 percent. Is that what accounts for the increase in the amount of the payroll tax? HON. A.

MACKLING: The increase in the levy for Health and Post-Secondary Education would be for the partial period. MR. G. MERCIER: Does that cover an increase in the number of employees also? HON. A. MACKLING: Yes, that would be included. MR. G. MERCIER: What is the increase in the number of employees over the last fiscal year , 19 85-86 compared to 1984-85? HON. A. MACKLING: You'll find that information in the Annual Report. The snapshot comparison as of December 31 st, 19 84, I think, a variation of 564 employees. MR. G. MERCIER: How much is it going up in this fiscal year, 1985-86? HON. A.

MACKLING: We won't know until December for the comparison. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 28: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $7,132 ,000 for Civil Service, Levy for Health and Post­ Secondary Education, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1986-p ass. Committee rise. SUPPLY - EDUCATION MR. CHAIRMAN, P. Eyler: Committee, come to order. We are considering the Estimates of the Department of Education, Item 4.(b), Curriculum Development and Implementation - the Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr.

Chairman, when we recessed at 4:30, we were discussing provincial examinations and pros and cons either way. I have one final question within that specific area, Mr. Chairman, and the question comes forward from an

article written in the Manitoba Te acher, June, 1985, written by Mava Gray, and it's entitled, "Exams - Do We Need Them?" This particular author says, and I quote: "Province-wide exams are not an issue in this province ." She goes throughout the arguments either way. This person indicated that she had taken a sabbatical and now has children of her own. Having been away, she reflects upon the Manitoba situation. She says: "There is un dou btedly room for improvement in Manitoba's present structure because it is perhaps too flexible and uncontrolled.

I found this out as a parent." This is a teacher speaking, by the way. That short sentence, I think, says it all. "I found this out as a parent. Wh en my daughter started university she found that her high school grades in Chemistry , English and Mathematics in no way related to the same grades which had been obtained by friends who went to a different high school." She talks about the lack of standardization in her

article and then comes to an alternative and it's entitled, "Search for Altern atives" and she makes this comment. She says: "For students intending to go from high school into further education, there must be accep table standards set for core subjects such as Chemistry, English, History, Maths and Physics." Then this person who is obviously a member of the Te achers' Society and recognizes the debate that's blowing within the larger community, tries to come up with a compromise, I suppose, of sorts and says: "Firm guidelines could be developed for curriculum content to be covered per subject.

Final exams could be set by examination committees comprised of Te achers' Society , university, community college and Department of Education personnel . Exam supervision and marking could continue to be carried out by classroom teachers keeping flexibility and control within the individual schools. Final exam results would count for no more than 50 percent of a student's final mark in a subject. An uncontrolled, teacher-set exam status could remain within the non-core · options such as Accounting, American History and Geography and Typing." Mr.

Chairman, that was one of the first attempts I have seen by anybody to attempt to grapple with this whole problem and come up with some type of alternative system to maintaining in place the teacher's responsibility and yet in the same place attempting to put into place some standardization. The Minister doesn't have to comment. I'm not going to ask a question other than to say that to me it's an interesting system and one that I would hope her department and she, herself, would consider reviewing and that she would care to give comment or whether the department has already given her comment with respect to this

article and she wishes to share it with us, I would be glad to listen to it. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Yes, I think I have a few things to say about the article. One is that while clearly the person is concerned about the issue and has given it some thought, it still, as many of the other articles that the Member for Morris quotes from, is the attitude and position of one individual teacher. I don't say that there wouldn't be some good suggestions or Ideas that come from an individual because often there are, but it has to be recognized that it has no more status - (Interjection) - than that.

I said that good ideas can come from an individual, but to suggest - (Inte rjection) - they all come from individuals. Is that your job tonight is to heckle? - (Interjection) - lt is, that's what I thought, okay. When the member finishes heckling, then I'll give my answer , if they really want it. That position isn't held . We have an advisory committee that's made up of trustees and superintendents and teachers and administrators, and 3102

Tuesday, 18 June, 1885 that position and that recommendation isn't coming from that body. That doesn't mean that we can't look at what we're doing and I said I was willing to do that in preparing to set up a system where we did it. lt still is based largely, and you can't take an individual, either teacher or parent, experience with their child and extrapolate it and say that now means that that's happening in the whole system. She was saying that it was her personal experience as a mother with her child going to university and that's what she's basing her statements on, and a concern for changing the system.

That, of course, isn't enough alone to make major changes in the system. lt still is based on having a provincial exam that it doesn't matter who sits in and makes it up, whether it's trustees and teachers and everybody sits down together and makes it up, that is given to all the students across the province and it's going to have a major effect on their accessibility to other programs.

Wh at I did at length, in fact ther e were some comments about the length, I think in the discussion for the hour-and-a-half previous, was to show the major deficiencies of provincial examinations, and there are major deficiencies. So I continue to say that I think we need to look at it again, but I would be very reluctant to move into either a complete or a modified form of provincial examinations that had all of the disparity and inequity and deficiencies built into it that I identified earlier. MR. C. MANNESS: Well, Mr. Chairman, we won't belabour this particular subject.

I guess what I found interesting about this particular attempt to come up with some solution was that the individual, who was a teacher herself, realized that there had to be some teacher flexibility within any attempt to bring forward provincial examinations, and her suggestion was that in fact the teachers mark their own students within their own setting. Mr.

Chairman, moving on, I'd like to ask three or four specific questions and they have to do basically with questions posed by a constituent of the Member for Turtle Mountain in a letter that she sent to the Minister last August and asked some specific questions. I believe the Minister did respond to this and did send me a copy, but I am wondering for the record if she could give me the answers again to some of these questions. The third one was: what assurance does the public have that current departmental courses of studies are being followed?

How do we find out who is responsible to ensure that these courses of study are being adhered to? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, we have a variety of checks, I suppose you can call it, on the system. The first one, I think, would be the principal in the school. lt's the job of the principal to make sure and to know what his teachers are doing and to know that they're following the guides. Are we referring now to the letter? MR. C. MANNESS: Yes, this is one of the questions. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Okay, I don't know. Like, I can't recall what the letter is about and what the subject is.

I'm just getting the question and it's totally out of context. Is it just a variety of questions? MR. C. MANNESS: Yes, there were five questions and I would ask them as if they were my own. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Right, okay. So there are a variety of checks. The first one would be the principal; secondly, the superintendent certainly as the chief executive officer and the top professional in the field have a responsibility to work with schools, with teachers and with principals to make sure that they're being followed.

We have curriculum consultants in all areas whose job it is to go out into the field and work with teachers and provide professional development programs and activities, and help them incorporate them into their classroom. So those would be the major checks. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, I take it from that then the Minister says that the parent of a student In Manitoba really doesn't have to worry, that these checks are in place such that the parent can be totally certain the program outlines and directions are being followed. I think that was the basic question. HON. M. HEMPHILL: That was the gist of it. MR. C.

MANNESS: Well that was the

interpretation I took out of it, Mr. Chairman. HON. M. HEMPHILL: I think that any parent who is interested to that degree and wants that kind of detailed lnformation is entitled to ask and Is entitled to get the lnfmmation. The guides and the curriculum are no secret. They are public documents. They can see them, and I think it's not inappropriate at all for them to raise it with the teacher and, if they have some concerns about what is being done, to raise it with the appropriate level. Of course, you start with the teacher which is where I think the first question belongs.

Then if they have some concerns they should go to the principal, superintendent and ul timately the board if their concerns aren't addressed. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, now that I don't have the letter with me - I've given it to the Minister - I don't know what questions to ask. If the Minister wishes a copy, fine, but she has responded to this letter previously. I don't want to go through all the questions. There are only three or four.

The first question intrigued me somewhat. lt said, "Why does the province permit schools to give students terminal passes in high school subjects?" I wasn't aware of this, and maybe it's just within that school division. For example, a mark 50-T, and I'm quoting from the question, "lt seems like blackmail to advise a student that he/she will not be given credit for a subject in one grade if he/she agrees to not take that subject in the next grade." Mr.

Chairman, I ask the Minister, does this occur in the public school system where you will receive a passing 50 percent grade if you promise not to continue in that subject the following year? - (Interjection) - We've got teachers answering from all over over there. 3103

Tueed ay, 18 June, 1885 HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, if I answered that particular question in the letter, and I may have, I can't recall either the question or the letter right now. First of all, the school board has the authority to make decisions about the basis upon which students will be passed and, I suppose, if there is such a condition - I don't know if it is a legal condition to extract a promise such as that or not - but if there is such a condition being imposed, you would have to raise it with the school board to ask if that was accepted policy in their school division. MR. C.

MANNESS: This is most inte resting, Mr . Chairman. The Minister says there may be in place a situation, and yet it is not legally prescribed within any act under her purview, and yet we have a former teacher, the Mini ster of Autopac, saying that it has been in the school system for 20 years. I guess it is longstanding, at least in the minds of some people and in some divisions. The Min ister seems to indic ate that she is not aware of it. I suppose what I'll do then is I'm not going to hold her to whatever she said in the original response, that's not my reason for drawing forward the question.

My reason for posing it is to whether, in fact, this is a situation or if this process of allowing passes from one grade to another are given under these conditions; I would like to know more about it. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, as I said before, it is not a practice that is either required or directed by my department and I have never heard of it before, because I can't recall if it was brought to my attention in that letter. The evaluation practices that do vary from division to division will have to be justified by the division and either the admin istration or, more directly, the school trustees. MR. C.

MANNESS: My final question, and I'm not going to use the one verbatim that is within the letter, but do parents have the right to have a copy of the examinations after the y have been marked? I'm specifically talking from Grades 9 to 12. Is there any law that says they have the right to have it, or is there any law that says they can't demand it, or is that strictly, again, a decision made at the division level or, indeed, within the specific school that might be involved? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Chairman, I don't believe there is a law that requires it, but I also don't believe that there is anything that would stop it. In other words, I think that if parents want it that they are entitled to it and I don't think there would be any problem in having access to examinations. MR. C. MANNESS: Well, is the Minister aware of any situations or any school divisions or schools within those di visions that may not provide to parents an examination after it has been marked? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, I don't have any information that there is a problem, but it seems that the Member for Morris may have.

If he knows of a situation and/or a school division where parents have asked for that and have not been successful in getting it, I think that rather than raise the question for the whole student population and province, that he should let me know who it is. lt still is in the purview of the school division and he should raise his questions with the particular school division if he has one. I imagine it's not a hypothetical question. MR. C. MANNESS: Well, Mr. Chairman, the Minister is becoming a little edgy. lt is a hypothetical question; I don't have a school division in mind.

I asked her the question as one of general policy, nothing more. So, Mr. Chairman, there is nothing sinister behind the question. I don't have - (Interjection) - well, we've got the sergeant up there saying I am fishing, Mr. Chairman, I'm fishing for information. If the Minister can't provide it, all she has to do is stand and tell me so. HON. M. HEMPHILL: First of all, I have answered the quesC73ewice. The answer is clear; the anawer won't change. He can ask it 10 times and it will still be the same answer. I don't know of any problem; I believe that parents can have acceaa to exams if they want them.

As far as I know, any of them who want them can get them. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Boring. MR. C. MANNESS: Well, Mr. Chairman, we have that exciting of all people, the Minister of Finance, yelling "b oring" across the Cham ber. Tha t's been his contribution to the Estimates procedure thus far, Mr. Chairman. I would ask the Min ister, because of the fact that this individual - (Interjection) - the Member for Turtle Mountain ind icates that this individual is a trustee. I suppose she's asking as a publicly elected person who wants to know her . MR. CH AIRMAN: Order please.

The outside conversation is getting a little bit heavy from both sides of the House. I would appreciate it if members would give the relevant speakers the opportunity to be heard by the other side. The Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Thank you. Mr. Chairman, I guess I pose this question. The Individual who wrote the letter is a trustee and I would take it, one who has been in that public position for some period of time and maybe Isn't absolutely certain as to the policies in place with respect to those parents of students who may want information or the answers to these questions.

The Min ister may have provided them. I remember seeing her answer; I can't recall in detail what it was. But I think my reason for asking the question was none other than again to try and attempt to find out whether there were policies that covered these situations. Mr. Chairman, I would like to now move Into some specific curriculum areas, and I will begin with the new Social Studies curriculum as laid out in the K-12 overview approved by the Minister of Education, 1985. Mr. Chairman, this has become a course that has become topical these days, at least in the minds of some, because of what it attempts to do.

As more and more people read the social studies curriculum, I think 3104

Tuesday, 18 June, 1885 more and more have a greater concern as to what it In summing up the intention of the program, the attempts to do and I can tell you, Mr. Chairman, in authors say: "The intention of the Social Studies having had an opportunity to read it myself, I don't program is to present opportunities for students to doubt first of all, the sincerity of the vast majority of identi fy, explain and evaluate their own, as well as people who have made contributions into writing this others, feelings, beliefs and values." particular curriculum. But what is most obvious, is that Mr.

Chairman, I submit, even without having seen somebody or whoever has had led the curriculum team the content, that reading that we are into a course in to developing this overview in developing this curriculum sociology, into a course dealing with social engineering, over the number of years it's taken to come into place with social reformation.

I'm wondering, and maybe the has attempted to marry geography, history and a heavy Minister can tell me later on, why it is that we are dosage of political science, some psychology, an awful changing the thrust of Social Studies from what it used lot of sociology, and attempted to bring a curriculum to be to the direction that it is taking under this out that is titled Social Studies. curriculum. When one reads the thrust it becomes obvious, Mr. Mr.

Chairman, so much evaluation indicates what Chairman, that the thrust is to force students at Grades students should have learnt at the end of instruction. 1 or 2 to begin to challenge the facts that are presented lt is concerned with the following questions and 1 to them, to challenge whatever ideas and values are suppose then the authors of this curriculum, in their placed before them. lt's trying to get them to realize minds, feel that the curriculum has done an adequate or to not accept everything for granted.

The word says, job, or if it has been able to direct students down these the thrust, and it lists many, is to have people explain particular avenues, such that these questions can be and interpret the world, their sense of right and wrong, asked. How well have the students achieved the of acceptable and unacceptable behaviour, e.g., their knowledge objectives? What evidence is there that values and beliefs. lt goes on, Mr. Chairman, to set as certain thinking and research skill objectives have been areas that students and teachers in presenting this achieved?

How well have the students demonstrated material, the students should always realize, it sets out that they have met the attitude and value objectives? some of these basic areas. To what degree have the students demonstrated they lt says that Canada is a country in which national have met the social participation objectives? unity cannot be taken for granted and it goes on, and Well, Mr. Chairman, I'd like then to move into the in a lot of this we can't quarrel with it. And it talks curriculum per se.

Kindergarten - and the main thrust about the strong feelings of regionalism that exist in in Kindergarten is to have students realize that there this nation and one can't deny that. lt says that is are many facets of self as they are expressed in expose _d to strong external influences, �sl>8<?ially fro'!l themselves and others. lt is basically introductive.

Grade the Umted States. _I� talks about �ur �ltuatlo� and �t.,. -- 1 fo cuses on the difference between needs and wants talks about our pollt1cal system wh1ch 1s descnbed as Mr Ch . ' a parliamentary democracy , and it talks about Canada -�- G dalr;an. . t tt h t . 1 lt as being a nation that is undergoing a trend towards __ .,... ra e move � '". � some pre � eavy ma ena · larger and larger institutions, both governmental and asks t� e Grade 2 IndiVIdual to _consider how we chan� e non-governmental, against which individuals often feel �ver time and how old age _ br�ngs changes In people s that they have little or no power. lt talks about Canada hves.

A�d, as somebo � y Said, lt asks a Gra� e 2 student as having a mixed economy with inequities in the to consl� er the q_u� stiOn of mandatory r� tlrement and distribution of wealth and power. Now these are the where w111 they fit 1n mto the world of growmg technology underlying tenets of principles, Mr. Chairman, of the when they reach that_ a� e. social studies curriculum covering all grades, K-1 2. Mr.

Chairman, why 1s 1t that students of that age ar� Well, moving on it says on Page 4, "The Social Studies asked to try and attempt to figure out the world as 1t Program has included concepts from various social may_ exist 50 _years _hence? � f course, unless, M_r. science disciplines. These interdisciplinary concepts Chairman, the mtent IS to conv1nce them that there 1s have been called content organizers. They are threads something to worry about.

I know the Minister on many which reappear throughout the K to 12 program in a occasions has said that the greatest concern that our spiral fashion. young people have is that there won't be jobs for them, Well, Mr. Chairman, I guess one becomes intrigued firstly; and, if there are, there will be so much strife in as you go through them. The thrust of the curriculum, the world, it won't be worth living In anyway. the content I'll speak more to later, but then it talks So, Mr.

Chairman, these are heavy heavy questions; about the knowledge objectives and this is what it says: but Unit 3, Grade 2, the unit provides children with an "The knowledge objectives outline more than just the oppor tunit y to speculate about how continued specific factual content which should be acquired. They technology and environmental changes in resource include the concepts, ideas and generalizations that availability might influence their lives in the future. Well should be emphasized and developed.

Facts serve as how do you introduce that whole major subject, Mr. the raw material upon which instruction and learning Chairman, and to what depths do you go, and to what are founded; they are the minute building blocks of degree do you allow teachers to move into that area the Social Studies ." which is foremost in the minds of all people, many of Wh at has been attempted, Mr. Chairman, is to them taking this at higher learning institutions?

Mr. introduce an element of history within this course and Chairman, Grade 3 concentrates on communities today yet very little attention is being given to specific historical and Manitoba's place in them. Grade 4 talks about facts. They are just used, as this objective indicates, communities around the world. . to be used as a small stepping stone toward the larger What is attempted here, of course, is to place into social consideration. I'll give details and specifics related perspective the individual, the student in Manitoba, to that in a moment. living in a community within the Province of Manitoba 3105

Tueeday, 18 June, 1985 today, to begin to have that student try and compare their position to other people in other parts of the world, and somehow make them realize that Manitoba isn't an island, that we are one small part of a big whole. But yet, Mr. Chairman, it says that it should be recognized these issues - and they are talking about development and levels of development throughout the world - it should be recognized that these issues do not lend themselves to simple or final answers.

Except for obvious cases of serious inadequacies in the level of material li fe, it is often difficult to say which commun ities are more or less developed. For example, which of the following is more developed? and the student is asked to decide: is it a rural community in Western Canada whose members use sophisticated technolo gies and have a high level of material consumption, but who live scattered across the lan dscape and whose community life has little identifiable focus or is focused on a dying town or village?

Or, and this is the other alternative, a rural village in a Third World region with simple technologies, a modest level of material consumption in a fairly integrated community life in which a wide range of needs, but social and physical, can be met. Mr. Chairman, that is a legitimate question, but what isn't being said is that in many of those communities in those Third Worlds people are dying because of a standard of living, because of poverty, whatever reason or political system in place. So, Mr.

Chairman, if we are attempting to direct our childr en into a thinking process where they are going to weigh, in some fashion, their position in life vis-a­ vis other communities and ether countr ies, then aren't we obliged to tell them the realities, the facts as to how conditions are in those Second or Third Worlds, because nowhere do I see within the Social Studies curriculum an attempt in any way to single us out either on the basis of political freedoms, on the basis of our standard of living which, of cou rse, is a reflection of our economic and political systems.

No attempt is made to spell out how we are materially di fferent, Mr . Chairman. I'll go on to prove that point. "The point of the example ... "getting back to my other comment, ". . . is not to romantici ze what are often inadequate living conditions in Thir d World communities." That's right, Mr. Chairman, but let's tell the truth. Let's say we have a significantly higher standard of living, that our death rates are low or much lower, and that there are significant reasons for this. Yet, nowhere in the curriculum do I see where we're prepared to say it's distinct what the reasons are or may be.

Moving on, "L ife in Canada Today" is the subject that's covered in Grade 5, Mr. Chairman. lt just breaks Canada into the regions, and goes into a descriptive breakdown. I can see absolutely nothing offensive. As a matter of fact, from what I can see, it's a fine course outline for that grade. Six, overviews life in Canada's past. Now we're moving into the historical aspect of our nation, Mr. Chairman. Unit One talks about the first inha bitants. Of course, it's directed towards our Native people. The second unit is the coming of the French. I find this interesting.

"lt must be emphasized that this unit does not stress the memorization of personalities or political and military events." Well, Mr. Chairman, I can see why we don't want to overstress them, but these are important Aren't the French explorers part of the history of our nation, and are they not important? Why is that aspect of our history trivialized? lt goes on, and it talks about the coming of the French. lt moves into the interaction between the newcomers and the Native people, and the life of the new immigrants in New France.

The very last item talks about the French being interested in establishing colonies and all the things that we've more or less learned. Then why did New France pass from French to British control? Throughout this and throughout other grades, the word "conq uest" is used. "Life at the Time of the Conquest," that's optional. Mr. Chairman, it's the fact of the history of our nation that there was a war fought between the British and the French. Yet, there Is not even a

section leading up to that or describing the conquest. The word "conquest" is used, but at no time is there an indication that the teacher of the day should even just talk about it. it's optional. Then we move on from the "Life at the Time of the Conquest," which is optional into the "Coming of the British," as if they're not related. lt talks about the Loyalists coming to Canada, the settlement at the Red River and immigration and so on. I question the Minister how it is that basic facts of history are in no way described within this curriculum. I realize this isn't Canadian his tory, but, Mr .

Ch airman, if we are attempting to marry all those disciplines, surely we can't deny the facts of our nation and the dates. That's when, and I used it in question period, Grade Six, the final

part is "Life in Canada During the 20th Century." Unit Five talks about life in Canada from 1900-1 930 and then during the 1930's and since 1940. The heading is: "What Was Canada's Involvement in World War 11?'' That's optional, Mr. Ctiairman. I can't believe it I mean, that's part of our history. The Min ister and the members opposite, they want to remove all reference to war, but it's a reality, Mr. Chairman. Our citizenry of that day made tremendous sacrifices. Yet, the Minister is saying that teachers of the day do not even have to tell of the contributions made by our people in that world conflict.

Why are facts that are tied in any manner to military conflict totally removed? Mr. Chairman, to continue, Grade Seven talks about the Planet Earth and - I found this interesting - "Patterns and People Around the World." The overview talks about: "The unequal distribution of resources in the world necessitates political and economic interaction and interdependencies among various regions." Mr. Chairman, it has also led to war on many occasions, this unequal distribution of resources. Yet, there is not an attempt in any way to explain that. The Minister breaks it then into first, Second and Third World countries.

Yet, in the first world, the United States is missing. In the Second World, the USSR is missing. The teacher is told: "In studying the countries of each world, care should be taken that contrasting factors such as environment, culture, population density and growth rates and level of development be considered." But, Mr. Chairman, what about personal freedoms? Are they to be considered? Not at all. Property ownership differences between the various countries? Religion? Public assemblies, political parties, are they to be considered? No, but they are factual. 3106

TUeaday, 18 June, 1985 Yet, they're not to be touched, Mr. Chairman. Why? I think the question is legitimate. Grade Eight, and this is an interesting one too, Mr. Chairman, because it attempts to talk about people through the ages. lt says: "The Intent is not to examine 3,000 years of history, but to encourage students to compare a wide variety of ways of life." There is nothing wrong with that. That's social studies as I remember it. But yet, when we move into ancient civilizations and, because the nation is multicultural in nature and our people come from different civilizations, Mr.

Chairman, "A minimum of one ancient civilization is to be selected from each of the topics." The civilizations are three. Of course, the Greek or Roman, Mr. Chairman, and that's, as we all know, that was the civilization that spawned democracy and it spawned laws and representation by population. Yet, it doesn't have to be covered, Mr. Chairman, and yet those are our roots as a civilization. Well, we talk about life in the modern world, and the First World countries are again England, Australia and New Zealand, and the Second World are Russia and Cuba, and the United States aren't even mentioned.

I can under stand why, though, because in Grade 9 the United States is considered our greatest threat to the nation. Then we talk about life in a contemporary communist society. After we have talked about an industrial society, First World, we talk about it in the Second World, and the qu estions, how do people In the commun ist countries meet their basic needs of food, shelter, clothing, health and security. Well, Mr. Chairman, they don't; they can't. The nation of Russia can't feed themselves today- the most fertile land on earth. There are many of us that are farmers that know what that means first-hand.

We are able to make a living, because we can export to those nations, Mr. Chairman. But yet any attempt to draw those differences, I can't seem to detect any at all, no absolutes. because we don't want to allow the child, the student, to reach a decision other than by attempting to give to them certain material. and in the minds of whoever wrote the curriculum, material that is not in a negative light and allow that student to reach their own conclusions. Grade 9 talks about the Canadian studies and Grade 10 - well, Mr.

Chairman - (Interjection) - I hear the comments from members opposite, it doesn't bother me an awful lot really. Of course, you know, Mr. Chairman, they have come through school and they don't have to worry, I suppose. Mr. Chairman, those are basically my concerns with respect to the · overview. I know the Minister will challenge me for bringing out of some material which she will say that I quoted out of context and that the intent wasn't made at all, but my final point is there is a whole element of social engineering and social reform that Is being brought into this curriculum. There is an

article - oh, Mr. Chairman, I can't go to it now; I can't find it - but it talks about life in Canada and how the la bour unions of our nation have contributed to the well-being. Yet, Mr. Chairman. nowhere in this text is reference made to enterprise and the fact that profits allow people to pay taxes. lt's biased; it's skewed in one direction in such a major fashion. I'm surprised, and yet I'm not, that the Minister of Education could approve it. That's why I asked the question in the House.

I asked if she had read it because if she believes that this is what our students should learn, that in fact as a nation we don't have to come to absolute decisions as to whether we are a better nation or that our standard of living is somewhat better for some reasons. Mr. Chairman, the Minister and her government don't understand our history and really have no idea as to where this nation is going. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Chairman, it's a little difficult to know where to start and where to end on a statement that is as complex and detailed and goes into as many points without stop and without question as that one does, while raising a large number of very serious and very detailed questions. So I am going to do my best to respond to the general comments that were made and then some of the specifics. I guess some of the answers he might expect and some of them he might not, but I think in the first place I want to put on the record how it was developed. That was one of the questions that he raised is how was this developed.

You know, it was developed over a long period of time from '76 to'83, and it was developed by the committees. I am going to go in a little bit into the makeup and the representation on some of the committees. But for that period from 1976 to 1981, we sent the first docu ments out to the schools In September, 19 81 and the review and the comments from school divisions was extremely positive. The cu rrent version, we made change s according to information that came from the field, as we always do, and the current version of the overview document was sent to all schools in May of 1985.

This curriculum has been sent across the country, Mr. Chairman, and although we have heard in the Chamber about how some of the provinces are moving in other directions than we are, in some areas like assessment, that this curriculum has been identified as being an excellent curriculum from all of the provinces that have received it. lt is recognized as being a very very good curriculum and a very solid curriculum and we have been getting that feedback from all the provinces across the country. So it's not just internal education system, but it's recognized for its quality right throughout the country.

I sup pose the first point that should be made, and the Member for Morris said that I would say he quoted out of context, and I am not going to say that because he was reading direct quotes from the guidelines. While it is hard sometimes to take the context that they were intended to be used, I wouldn't suggest that he was either taking it out of context or misquoting, but what I do have to indicate is that he is quoting from guidelines, he is quoting from teacher guides. What he needs - like there is more to it.

I guess the important point for the Member for Morris to know is that while he has a teacher guideline, it is not the detailed guide and it does not have what goes along with it, the textbooks and support materials that go along with all teacher guides. So what he Is quoting from is the most superficial document that relates to the social studies program. MR. C. MANNESS: Well, I will go into this one then. 3107

Tuesday, 18 June, 1985 HON. M. HEMPHILL: Well, anyway, he is quoting from the most superficial document relating to this program, and there are a number of other points that I want to make. So he has to look at what teachers have access to.

The teacher guide, first of all, it's not curriculum. lt's exactly that; it's a teacher guide. lt's meant for the use of professional teachers, and they have been trained in both methodology and trained in und erstanding the development of childr en, how they learn and at what ages they learn, and it is done in a very broad way for them to use as a guideline in teaching the curricu lum.

Without showing any disrespect for the member opposite, I would say that if you are not a teacher and you have not been trained in methodology and the learning stages and stages of children, the development of children, and have all the additional information that is at your di sposal, which is textbooks, resource materials and detailed curriculum guides, then you really don't have a solid enough basis to make the statements that you are making about how it is being used and whether or not it is adequate and what the deficiencies and the inadequacies are, because most likely a great deal of them will show up in the more detailed guide and in the textbooks and materials, because the guides that he quoted from are just bare bone.

They are just bare bone guides for the curriculum. So I suppose that's one of the first points that I want to make. I must say, Mr. Chairman, that I listened without any comment coming from this side and gave all my attention to the points as they were being made by the member and I would appreciate the same opportuni ty. In our elementary curricu lum, I think it's important to know too that all of our programs in our elementary schools are integrated. In fact, a lot of them are integrated and they don't necessarily just teach Social Studies and Science alone.

So that it very well may be that where he is raising inadequacies, he's saying well it isn't really Social Studies, but you should have history in there. The fact is that these things are taught in their own courses and teachers are taught.

In elementary school, they particularly do it; they don't do it as much In high schools, they teach just a course in high school, nut in elementary school, they integrate all their cou rses and it's quite probably that where they're teaching a subject in one area, in Social Studies, that they would turn to information that fitted in to the program that was in other courses and integrated because that is the basis of the changed program; one of the major principles of the changed program of our elementary school is integrat ion of cou rses and curriculum.

One of the things, he talked about the age appropriateness, and he seems particularly concerned about the younger children, Grade 2 and Grade 3, and you're giving them this information and you're asking them to look at early retirement and you're asking them to look at some of these other issues and are they really ready for it?

I think the answer there is that we have to start teaching our students how to analyze information and fact and we have to start teaching them critical thinking at a very early age, I think from the beginning of schooL We don't wait until our kids are 18 years old and put them out and then say, now you are responsible; now you think; now you start analyzing and criticizing and giving analytical thought to it. We don't do that with our childr en at home and we don't do it in schooL We start developing their responsibility, their knowledge and their ability to analyze and understand at the earliest age.

All of those things that he quoted would not be put in the words that he used because they do appear to be beyond a Grade 2 or a Grade 3 child, when you use that terminology and those words. Those are written for the teachers and the teachers take that and put it down to the level that the children can understand it, the age-appropriate level for the childr en. So they put whatever the concept and idea is in terms of what the children could understand. I have some concerns about the major statements that he continu es to make, where he says that the course is concerned about what it attempts to do.

I think it's the kind of thing where he's making suggestions again abou t what the curriculum is attempting to do, as if we're hiding things in there or attempting to slip things in, that are not either consistent with regular teaching practices or not consistent with values and not consistent with facts and content in knowledge and information. So first of all, we have to say that the first thing that we do is that the information that is in the curriculum is taught on fact on historical fact and on geographical fact.

All of the content is based on fact and that fact may not be found in the curriculum guide. lt may not be all of the details on the fact, but it will be fou nd in other ma terials, textbooks.

The values that we follow, first of all the goals, it is related to the original goals that we spelled out earlier, that he said everybody agrees and nobody could disagree with and they don't think there would be any dis agreement; that's the basis of developing the program is on the goals and the values that we've based it on are those values that are accepted by, I think, all of our society and we've got critical thinking, problem solving, tolerance, respect for others, responsibility, fairness, those are the values that I keep indicating are the values that are built in to all of our curriculum and those that we believe are not special-interest values, or special group values, or particular religious values, but values that are common to all of the people of Manitoba and indeed of Canada.

The membership on the committee, you know, is very wide-ranging and when you say who is doing this and who is writing this curriculum and why did we change? Well, I suppose, one of the reasons that we change curriculum always is that curriculum has to keep pace with changing knowledge and times, the facts and information. One of the points he made was why are we taking away memorization?

Because, surely, these things that happened in our history are very important things and we sho uldn't be either downgrading them or not teaching them to our children, because they should know what happened on certain dates and certain times in our history because they're important moments. Of course, that's quite right. But what we are suggesting is not that they shouldn't learn them or they shouldn't be given the information as facts, but that they shouldn't focus just on memorization.

Because one of the things that we know we did before that was a deficiency of the earlier programs, is we gave kids facts and figures and dates, 1892, 1467, 1427. All they did was regurgitate 3108

Tuesday, 18 June, 1985 or memorize what happened on those dates; who were the people involved so that they could spew them out at a test. lt gave them absolutely no understanding of their province or the country or the world. lt gave them no understanding. So what we have said in terms of the point that he raised the fact that we have said that they should not only memorize facts in detail, should not be interpreted to say that we do not give facts and information about important dates and days and periods and activities in our history, because, of course, that's what we have to do.

We have to give our kids a better understanding of what it really means. lt has to be related to reality, to their community, to their neigh borhood, to their family, to their province, to their country, in a way that they really understand where they came from and what happened; what their parents and their grandparents and their great grandparents did. So that they have an identity and strong feelings and understanding about their country in its relationship to the world and not just a regurgitation of information.

So if we look at the membership of social studies working party and without going into necessarily giving names, which I could do but I think the representation is important, clearly we have representation from across the province which would give a wide range of sort of attitudes, I think, of people both teaching and as parents, because a lot of our teachers are parents. But we've got representation on the K to 12 working party from Rolling River, Lord Selkirk School Division, Pelley Trail, Flin Flon, Winnipeg School Division, Brandon, University of Manitoba and the Department of Education.

And in the middle years, we've got River East, Rhineland School Division, Frontier, Morris Macdonald School Division, St. James, Evergreen, The University of Manitoba and the Department of Education. Clearly, in each of one of these, we had a K to 12 working party; we had early years K to 4 social studies task group; middle years 5 to 9 social studies task group; senior years, 10 to 12, social studies task group.

Every committee that you can see has a good representation of all of the organizations and groups in the education system, and a good range from the different geographical areas, from the North, from the rural area, from the city which, I think, should give a good perspective. So what we've got is a situation where the Member for Morris is picking out sort of individual details where he doesn't have all of the information in front of him. That's one of the problems. Secondly, we in this Chamber are not teachers and are not taught and trained in how to use these materials.

He's trying to suggest that we're being led by the experts. Certainly you want a broad range of perception and ideas but, to suggest that you would develop curriculum without the knowledge, without teachers who are trained in methodology and teaching and trained in child development, would just be ridiculous. So we have to depend to a large degree on the professionals to develop it initial ly. We've got the involvement of superintendents, of school trustees on every committee. We have school trustees sitting on the curriculum committees. We have superintendents, principals, teachers.

I think that they spent a long time and have developed not a perfect program, once again, because it can always be improved, but one that is solid. lt does have good content. lt includes solid, societal values. it's got high academic demands . lt is based on credible and acceptable teaching strategies and methods, and it's based on fact. The content is based on solid fact and information. There may be some changes in terms of presentation that are a little difficult to understand, because they're different from the way it was presented when we were in school. But I think that those changes were made for a reason.

They were made because we were not giving our children adequate knowledge and understanding probably - maybe facts, yes, but knowledge and understanding - of their country and the world issues as we are in this program.

If I just heard a little bit of swearing under the breath, and I don't suggest where it came from, I might say to the Member for Morris, if he's going to stand up and read from materials and documents and take three­ quarters of an hour to do it and raise 47 questions - (Inter jection) - or whatever the amount of time was, a reasonable amount of time, and raise a large number of questions, then that's what he has to be prepared for in terms of the answer, the same amount of time and the same amount of attention.

I didn't know who it was that swore under their breath, and I assumed that it had something to do with the length of the response. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, the Minister is feeling a little guilty. I didn't find her answer inordinately long at all. HON. M. HEMPHILL: No, not guil ty. MR. C. MANNESS: As a matter of fact, it was one of her shorter ones, and I compliment her. So I don't know why she is so sensitive. She may have heard some buzzword over here that sent her flying. But, Mr. Chairman, I don't know why she would be quite so sensitive. Mr.

Chairman, first of all, let me say for the record I am not critical of all the people that have contributed, no doubt , in the most sincere manner to the development of the new social studies curriculum. I have no doubt in my mind that 95 percent and maybe more of that number made a very strong, sincere commitment to a n