Volume 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SEVENTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st. Session VERBATIM REPORT FRIDAY, MARCH 5, 1976 Number 24 SPEAKER; THE HONOURABLE GERALD RYAN OTTENHEIMER

'March 5, 1976 The House met at 3:00 P.¥. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Tape No. 922 IDl- 1 This afternoon I would like to welcome to the House of Assembly some students from two schools in the Province. From Eugene Vaters Collegiate in St. John's there are twelve students in grades ten and eleven, accompanied by their teacher Mr. Andrews;and from Labrador Cjty Collegiate in Labrador City eleven students, grades ten and eleven as well, accompanied by their teacher, J<iss ~!cCormick.

I know that all hon. members on all sides of the House join me in ~velcoming these young men and young women to the House of Assembly and we hope that your visit here will he instructive and interesting. Smffi HON. :MEHBERS: Hear, hear! PRESENTING PETITIONS: }JR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. HR. ROBERTS: Nr. Speaker, thank you, Sir.

May I. present some more of the petitions which were presented yesterday and which I did not get an opportunity to present yesterday because, as Your Honour will recall, when business closed at 5:30 P.t•., or closed in the sense '"e '"ent on under Standing Order 32 to the so-called late show we were still presenting petitions and I have a number of others, Sir, some of which came this day. First of all, ~r. Speaker, they are all in relation to the price of electricity, and I do not propose to say a great deal because we had a very thorough discussion of that yesterday. But the f:i rst of these, ~lr.

Speaker is from Local 569 of the CUPE, the Canadian Union of Public Employees here in St. John's, Thes£>. are the St. John 1 s }~unicipal Workers Union and they strongly protest the actjon of the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador in permitting an increase in electrical rates of 40 per cent to Newfoundland Hydro which has caused a subs·t~ntial increase in the rates charged by the Newfoundland Light and Power Company to the Newfoundland consumer. 2401

March 5, 1976 Tape No. 922 NM- 2 MR. ROBERTS: Since this was written,of course,on the 30th. of January, tte government announ~ed their temporary price freeze, but it did not take away from the point of the petition. The prayer of the petition, Sir, goes on,and is signed on this part by Mr. O'Leary, the President; Mr. Stanley, the Vice-President; and Hr.

Fanning the Treasurer of that Union, 11 The government indicated that it was in complete agreement with the Federal Government wage and price controls and while we,the wage earner 1 tried to co-operate to the best of our ability to convince our membership to accept an 8 per cent increase, feeling that the figure was inadequate but we felt that it was in the best :l.nterest of our Province and Canada as a whole, we now find that the very leaders who should be showing the example in this case are ignoring the guidelines while we are forced as wage earners to accept the wage and price controls without any legal means to by-pass or ignore these guidelines. 11 MR.

NEARY: To whom is the petition addressed? MR. ROBERTS: It is acdressed to the hon. Edward Roberts and it is also addressed to the hon. Stephen Neary, and my name is on the - MR. NEARY: 'Vho presented it yesterday~ }!R. ROBERTS: Well fine. My name is on the top and since I did not have the opportunity to present it yesterday and since then it is an original, I have every intention of presenting it as I was asked to by Hr. O'Leary, Hr. Stanley, and Mr. Fanning. MR. MURPHY: What happened to the original? MR. ROBERTS: That is the original. I do not know whether ~~hat was presented yesterday was an original or not.

But I know that this is an original. And so it will be presented, }'R .• SU!MONS: He must have had a copy. MR. NEARY: That is a very insignificant detail. AN HON. ¥.E11BER: I think it is a very - ~~. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! 2402

t.tard : 5, ]Q7~ Tape ~o. 922 I'W- 3 t<R . ROBBRTS: 'lr. Speaker, it may be insignificant in the hon. gentleman's mind. It may also be very equally in,sip;n3 ficant in his l!linc! that it Has addressed primarily to me and $econdaril y to him hut what I have said is the truth and he can like it or lump it. ~ fay I also present a petition, lir. Speaker, from a number of the residents of St. Julien's in~ constituency of Straits of Belle Isle, another one from over 100 people in the Conmunity of Anse Ecl air, in the constituency of Straits of Belle Island, AnPther one fro m the district of Straits of Belle Isle from the Community of Goose Cove, . 2403.: · .

March 5, 1976 Tape no. 923 Page 1 - mw Mr . Robert s . one from Woody Point in Bonne Bay in the district of St. Barbe, from the Labrador West Integrated School Board in Labrador City in the district of Menihek; one signed by 212 people from Corner Brook, in the districts of Humber East and Humber West; one signed by over 189 - if I can read my own writing - from people in St. Pauls in the district of St. Barbe;and some which have come this day all to the same effect from the community of Crow Head in the district of Twillingate; from St. Joseph's in Salmonier in the district of St.

Mary's - The Capes; from the town of Holyrood in the district of Harbour Main - Dell Island; from ,the Canadian Union of Public Employees, in the district represented by my friend and colleague from Baie Verte- White Bay (Mr.

Rowe); Local 1567 in Baie Verte itself; from the community council of Coachman's Cove in the district of Baie Verte - White Bay; from a number of people in Marystown, in the district of Burin - Placentia West; from the town of Bishop's Falls in the district of Exploits; from 363 people in the town of Summerford in the district of Twillingate~ from a group of people in Little Bay, }~rystown; from South Brook in Green Bay; from Lumsden, in the district of Fogo; by another forty people in Corner Brook. And that is a copy of one~ I do not know to whom it is addressed. It has been sent to me by David H.

Burton, the town clerk in Durrells, in Twillingate district, but it is not an original so I will not present it. It has the typed names of 266 people. MR. NEARY: It was presented yesterday. MR. ROBERTS: Well I thank the hon. gentleman, Sir, for presenting it yesterday, and they obviously - MR. NEARY: As usual you are running behind. MR. ROBERTS: - they obviously, }!r. Speaker, expected me to check up ~n the hen. gentleman and that I have done and very happy to do so. Mr. Speaker, the prayer of all these petitions, Sir, is essentially the same. The matter was well rehersed yesterday, but it is worth saying again.

These people, Sir, object strenously to the government's Z404

March 5, 1976 Tape no. 923 Page 2 Mr. Roberts. action. Th<!y object to the secrecy in which the government acted. Itoey object to tile complete and utter lack of explanation by the government.

They object to the fact that they believe that the government are ignoring the needs of the electricity consumers of this Province, and they are igno1·ing it by the way in which they have gone about trying to impose this rate. increase. 1 present these petitions, Sir, and 1 present them with the request and in the hope that they will receive full and proper consideration and that the government will heed the request of people and not put through this increase ancl not put through any increase unless and :.mtil they ltave shown some justification,which they have not done. SOME liON. ~1ENBERS : Hear, hear! MR.

SPEAKER: The han. member for LaPoile. I1R. NEARY: 1\r. Speaker, 1 rise to support the prayer of the petition . . \s a matter of fact 1 find myself in a most awkward position, Hr. Speaker, where some of the petitions read out by the hon. member, the hon. Leader of the old-line Liberal Party, have already been presented in this hon. House, presented yesterday and, Sir, as a matter of courtesy I rise to support the prayers of the various petitions.

That is more than I can say about the Leader of the Opposition. lie did not have the courtesy yesterday to support the 183, I think, or 193 petitions that I presented on behalf of 24,000 citizens of this Province. He did not think :that it was important enough to stand in his place in this hon. House and support these petitions. But I have no hesitation at all, Sir, in supporting any new petition that might be there. The others, I think, we went through the procedure yesterday and had them tabled in the House already.

So some of it is just merely a duplication of what we had yesterday. ~~- SPEAKER: Are there any further comment on this petition? The bon. member for St. John's South. DR. COLLINS: Hr. Speaker, I rise to support the prayer of these petitions. As I understand the intents of the prayer, the petitions

March 5, 1976 Tape no. 923 Page 3 - lllW DR. COLLINS : seek to reii1Unerate the tmdue or excessive hardship of any increase in electrici.ty rates, In making these coimnents on these petitions, Mr. Speaker, perhaps I would be allowed to offer my congratulations to the whole House of Assembly in the way that these discussions have been conducted ~ the last day or so and also, of course, to your.self, Mr. Speaker, as the servant of the House, in allowing the latitude, both in time and in content, in these discussions.

Now I think the reason why the House has a1lowed this - and I hope that I will be given somewhat the same latitude here - is that this is an important issue. It affects all households as many people said ., and it certainly is very se1:ious for some people. I would like to colllllient, therefore, on certain points that were raised in the discussion, and I do so because I think that we may bE! .seeing here the first joining o.f the battle between two divergent views on how the

Narch 5, 1976 DR. COLLINS: Tape 924 IB-1 public affairs of this Province may be run. The first point I would like to comment on, l>'r. Speaker, is the question of reality. Now it has been said that electricity costs are a necessity of life in our society, and this may well be so. But a necessity of life does not automatically qualify something for a subsiny. I think the hon. Leader of the Opposition said yesterday that air, water and brean were necessities of life. But I do not think that anyone can hold therefore that we should subsidize these just because they are necessities of life.

So that therefore we must maintain a certain sense of reality in discussing these matters. The realities of the situation demand that changes in the cost of life necessities should be reflected in changes in the individual farr•ily budgets nf the individual citizen. In other words,it is a question of individual priorities and individual sense of responsibility. rlany claim that we are living in an unreal world, not only in this Province but in Canada as a 1~hoJe, and indeed in the world as a whole.

He have been living in an unreal HorJd, a sort of fool's paradise,since the 1950's and I think that the requirements of a sense of reality take it that we recognize this. The second point I ~10uld like to cmmnent on, ~'r. Speaker, was the universality of r,overmr.ent measures. :'101-1 the tmiversnlity surely is justified in that something is a hardship for all. If it is otherwj se surely ~.·e should use selectivity. He shoulc1 iclentify if and where a harnship exists and then do something about it.

Universality is recognized as one of the causes of the tremendous overruns of expenditure in social :;;ervices, and for the last tHenty years we have seen this lesson driven home time and time again and I am sure none of us wish to fall into that trap once more. The third point out of these discussions, "!'!r. Speaker, was the question of priorities of government. Many see an inbalance between government expenditures in the social service field opposed in-particular to expenditures in the developmental field, that is

Uarch 5, 1976 DR. COLLINS: Tape 924 in the fields of developments Which ultimately end up in jobs for IB-2 our people so that they themselves can acquire services for themse lve s . I think that Newfoundland in particula r is a striking exampl e of this imhalance between expenditures on social services and on resource devel opment. So here again I think our consideration of this matter should take this into account . The fourth point - and I have not many more oth ers , t'r . Speaker - is the credibility of the parliamentary system .

As we know this is under attack now and has been downgraded and is looked upon a~ essentially dealing in patchwork remedies and based to no small extent upon considerations of partisan advantage. I do not think t hat we, in the discussion of such ser ious matters before us now,want to len~ any support to any lack of credi bility in our parliamenta ry system . And the final point I wish to brin!; up tha t 1 sa•J col!'ing out of these discussions was the accountability of quasi -aut ontmous public boclies.

I use that term to refer to t hose bodies who are responsible for the expenditure of large amount s of public funds 1 or ~o.•hose decisions have ~:idespread or deep ly felt effects upon individual citizens. He may be seeing a principle evolvin& here whereby the operati<lns, the details of the operations of these bodies are y~ven grea ter scrutiny by elected representatives and also held up more to the publi c vie~J. ~'P. . SPI:AKER : Order , please! I .2408 : ·

March 5, 1976 Tape 925 PK - 1 Mr. Sneaker: hesitate reluctantly to ·interrupt the hon. gentleman, but the rules require that the expiry of five minutes that I do in fact do so and that the hon. member may continue with the consent of the House. MR. SPEAKER: By leave? The hon. member for St. John's South. DR. J. COLLINS: Hr. Speaker, your ·sense of timing is absolutely perfect as always because I just terminated my remarks. Thank you. SOME_!-!ON. l!EJ>ffiERS: Hear, hear! MR. ROllRRTS: Mr. Speaker, if I may rise to a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR.

ROBERTS : I gather that the hon. gentleman from LaPoile (~lr. Neary) intimiated to the House in speaking to this petition th11t some of the petitions which I have presented were copies. I would invite Your Honour to direct the clerks to search these petitions to P.nsure that they are all originals,because they all are. None of them is a copy of anything else. They are all original petitions because it would he most improper t.o present anything else under the rules of this House as they exist. MR. NEARY: That is not v.•hat I said. ------ MR.

SPEAKRR: The point made by the Leader of the Opposition has been noted r.nd the officers of the llouse will undertake that request. Are there any further petitions? The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY:_ l1r. Speaker, just to sort of change the pace, Sir, I want to present a petition on behalf of practically all of the adult population of Jlarbour Le Cou in the great and glorious,historic district, Sir, of LaPoile. And the petition reads - MR. SMALL'I-JOOD: They do not want to stop that song,do they? MR. NF.ARY: No. They do not want to stop the song.

I ~dsh I could sing it today, Sir, hut - I could say it is a petition addressed to the hon. House of Assembly of Newfoundland and Labrador, a petition of the residents in Harbour Le Cou and some residents of Rose Blanche. The prayer of the petition, M.r. Speaker, is as follows: "That the breakwater protecting the harbour of Harbour Le Cou is badly in need of repairs; that for the last three or four years the break,~ater is washing away a little more with each heavy stormj that recently during '2409

March 5, 1976 Tape 925 PK - 2 Mr._ Neary: the height of a heavy storm two families on the lo~rer waterfront had to leave their homes for safety; that this is causing much concern to the families in this area, also to the fishermen, for the safety of their fishing boats, fish stores and wharves. Therefore we the undersigned humbly beseech your hon. House to give consideration to this petition, and your petitioners!' Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to present this petHion. I think it is the first official petition that I have had the honour of presenting for my new district of LaPoile.

I do not think, Sir, it is necessary for me to point out to the House that in the Rose Rlanche, Diamond Cove, Harbour Le Cou area you have some of the finest fishermen, Sir, in this Province, and as the hon. Premier probably knows more than any other member of this House,' and I was not really aware of it until I went down in that district,that you have a Winter fishery in that part of Newfoundland. They are just the opposite of 1~h«t we are on the East Coast. They have a Wintell' fishery dot-m there.

Hhen I Has campaigning in September they were just getting their boats ready then to go fishing when we were just about finished the inshore fishery here, and they were just getting ready to start fishing. And this is the peak period nm.r, they are right in the height of the fishing season right now, Sir. So in view of the fact that the han.

Premier and several of the Cabinet ministers travelled through Europe recently to look into the possibility of establishing small industry in Newfoundland, especially developing the small fish plants and handicrafts and cottage type industries, animal husbandy and that sort of thing,that I am sure that the Premier will be more than interested in this particular petition because this is just the type of thing that the bon. Premier has been talking about. It is right up the Premier's alley.

And I do hope, Sir, that whatever minister is responsible for small crafts, small harbours, and breakwaters that he will see to it that the necessary repairs to this breakwater are made in this current fiscal year so that when the fishing season starts around next September or October that at least the fishermen .. 24.10

!A arch 5, 1 r:76 Tape 925 PK - 3 ir, l'arbour Le Cou Hill have protection for their longliners and for their snall boats. 2411

March. 5, 1976, Tape 926, Page 1 -- apb MR. SPEAKER: The hon, the member for Burgeo-LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Just a second! Hold it! Do not get impatient! Take your time! MR. SIMMONS: Hr. Speaker - MR. NEARY: One at a time. MR. SIMMONS: I am talking to the Speaker. He has already recognized me. The other speaker has recognized me so I guess I can speak, Mr. Speaker. I would like to very heartily and whole-heartedly support the prayer of the petition so ably presented by the member for LaPoile. I am not the member for Burgeo-LaPoile but Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir, a distinction which becomes increasingly important every day.

I support, Mr. Speaker, the petition from the people of Harbour LeCou and those petitioners l~ho signed from Rose Blanche for a break­ water. I found it significant that the member presenting the petition said that it was the first petition from his district, One can only assume that the bundle that he presented yesterday did not include any from his district,and I wonder why. But that is another subject. MR. NEARY: }1R. SD!MONS: MR. NEARY: I had a call from Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir. Mr. Speaker, the winter fishery has been going on - They love me up there. I should go up. MR. SIMMONS: They do love him up there, Mr.

Speaker. No doubt he did have a call up in Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir. This kind of thing goes on all the time where people call the members in the ad.ioining districts and as long as we all get the petitions in hetween us, that is the main thing. Indeed, mentioning petitions, Mr. Speaker, and mentioninr, Burgee-Bay d'Espoir and places nearby, and I believe this is very relevant to my wanting to support this petition, I did have a telegram in the last couple of days indicating that there are some petitions on the way. The telegram reads: "Your electricity petition circulated in every community throughout the district.

It is receiving full support from individuals, organizations, press and radio. Signature sheet should be forthcoming this weekend." Now, Mr. Speaker, that particular telegram, while it is not from 2412

March S, 1976, Tape 926, Page 2, apb. MR. SIMMONS: Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir, is from a nearby district, Channel. That would be LaPoile district. MR. NEARY: From Lew Blundon, no doubt. Lew Blundon? MR. SIMMONS: It goes to show, Mr. Speaker, that there is a bit of give and take. There is a bit of give and take, Mr. Speaker - ~tR. NEARY: Lew Blundon? Who is it signed by? }'R. SHIMONS: Oh, it does not matter whom it is signed by. It is a legitimate telegram. MR. NEARY: You are browned off now. MR. SIMMONS: I am not going to give the name of the person so you can go out and harass him. AN RON.

MEMBER: Tell him to table it. '1R. NEARY: Pardon? AN liON. MEMBER: Table it. MR. NEARY: Table it! Table it! MR. SIMMONS: No, Mr. Speaker, I have read it into Hansard. There it is. There is the telegram. MR. DOODY: Prove to the House that you have it. SO~ RON. MEMBERS: Shame! Shame! 1-tR. SPEAKEr: Order, please! Order, please! MR. S IMJIIONS : I see. You want it tabled? Mr. Speaker, just for the Minister of Finance I will table the telegram. Just for the Minister of Finance. MR. NEARY: MR. LUNDRIGAN: MR. SIMMONS: I know who it is. I know it is Lew Blundon. Are you talking about breakwatets or electricity? Ha, ha!

The Minister of Industrial Develooment is confused as usual. We are talking about breakwaters, Mr. Sneaker. Of course we are talking about breakwaters. The subject of the oetition is a breakwater for Rose Blanche and it is a petition that needs the whole-hearted support of this House. The winter fishery has been going on up there for centuries,not just since September when the member (Mr.Neary) went up there for the first time. It has been going on for centuries, Mr. Speaker. Secondly, of course, I can appreciate that the member (Mr. Neary) would have to present the petition, it was sent to him. It 2413

March 5, 1976, Tape 926, Page 3 -- apb MR. SIMMONS: was sent to him and so he presents it. But I hope he is also aware that it is a federal matter and I hope he will take it up with his friends in Ottawa and see what they can do to help meet the prayer of that petition. MR. NF.ARY: They are your constituents. MR. SIMMONS: On behalf of my colleagues here in the official Opposition, Mr. Speaker, we are delighted to support the first petition which the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) has presented on behalf of his constituency.

He has been busy presenting them from all over the place, but this is the first one from his constituency. We congratulate him. They know where he is. We hope he gets some more petitions and if they are in the spirit of development in his district we will help him, we will support them all the way. MR. NEARY: You had better get down there and let them know where you are. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR . SPRAKER: Are there any further comments on this petition? MR. WOODROW: Which one is that? Which one? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Bay of Islands. MR. WOODROW: Mr.

Speaker, I have here three reasons for supporting the petition from the member for LaPoile. Before I give these three reasons, I would like to say that I am happy to see the galleries today crm~ded with the children from the two schools in the St. John's area. I think what I am going to say will have a bearing on them. My first reason for supporting it is because, number one,we are forgetting a lot of the old folklore of Newfoundland. 1-Jhen 2414

Tape 927 JUT - 1 MR. l-.100DROW: I speak of folklore I am thinkin~t now of the late Gerald S. Doyle,and I am also remembering ~vhat the former Premier of the Province dirl, the member from Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood), to try to keep alive the folklore of the Province of Newfoundland. I think this is terribly important and I would like to say to the pupils in the galleries that unless we as members of this House try to keep the folklore of Newfoundland alive you are goinp.; to lose something. S6mething is going to be lost which played a big

part in the Province of Newfoundland. :-;umber two, when you think of names like Harbour Le Cou - in fact, it is an outstanding name, Think of a name, for example, like Sally's Cove again. I believe these are places named - MR. S}1ALLHOOD: ~ot for the same reason. MR. HOODRQ1.T: No, no, no, absolutely nod Oh no, no! P.ut at least it has some historic value. I think that we should try to keep names like that well alive in our history so that the generations to come will remember just how ~iewfoundland lvas started.

Thirdly, of course, and perhaps not thirdly - I should nut this one firstly: The people, I th:lnk, of Harhour I.e ~ou, thev certainly deserve to be thought about. So I really think for these three reasons that we certainly should give the member of LaPoile (Mr. Neary) backing on this pEtition. Thank you, }~r. Speaker. AN HON. HEYBF.R: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Any further comments on this petition? Are there any further petitions? The hon. member from ~erryland. ~lR. C • POHFR : 11r. Speaker, I ask leave to present petitions on behalf - SOME RON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! HR.

PO\-TER: Not yet, my friend, not yet! - the petitions from the people of Cappahayden, Renews, Fermeuse, Port Kirwan, Ferryland, Calvert and Care llroyle on behalf of the 1,20() residents of the Southern Shore, 1,200 ,, residents of the Southern Shore. The prayer of the petition says, That we vigorously protest recent and proposed increases in electricity rates in our area. He feel that these increases are unwarranted and that impose a severe financial burden at a time when householders' incomes are restricted by anti-inflation measures.'J I just want to say at this moment that the 1,200 2415

}larch 5, 1976. MR. POWER: TalJe 027 . FH - 2 persons and all the residents of Ferryland unite with the other many tens of thousands of Newfoundlanders 1~0 are protesting the proposed or future electricity increases. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Conception Bay South. MR. J. NOLAN: Nr. Speaker, if I may address myself and support the petition from the hon. member from Ferryland (Mr. Power). I must say if you were new at all in the House of Assembly, no matter where the harassment comes from, but I, in my opinion, Mr.

Speaker, I do not think the member, at least in his first effort there halfway through presentation of that petition had half a chance with the no ice that ~~as going on in the House. I think that not only is it a mark perhaps of disrespect of the House or to the member but also to the people that he is attempting to represent in the petition that he presented there.

We are led to believe that what we are here for and taking up so much time with these petitions is that they are important, that the matter before us is important, the electrical rates, the heat, whatever it is,that people are finding very, very trying with other other expenses that they have to deal with at this time in our economic history, at least. So I certainly do regret very much the non-reception, if you like, that I feel the member got. No matter what side of the Fouse it came from, the disturbance, I think it was disgraceful, Mr.

Speaker, and I certainlv support the member of Ferryland in his efforts to be heard and not shouted down in presenting that petition on behalf of the people concerned 1o1ho are not here in this House to present it themselves\and that is what he is here for. I thought he did a good job and I certainly support it. SOHE RON. }!EMBERS : Rear, hear! ~ffi.

SPEAKER: Refore recognizing any other hon. gentlemen I wish to draw to the attention of hon. members the presence in the legislature this after­ noon of l1ayor Sam Hoddinott and two councillors, Councillors Baird and Maynard from Hawkes Bay, and to welcome these hon. gentlemen on behalf of all hon. members. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 2411~

March 5, 1976 Tape No. 928 N}f- 1 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: ~r. Speaker, I rise to support the petition presented on behalf of the residents in Ferryland District and I must agree 1~ith my hon. friend from Conception Bay South n1r. Nolan) that it was awfully annoying, I think it was the Yinister of Justice was up talking to the Speaker at the time. We just could not hear what was going on across the House. I presume that was what the member ~~as referring to. MR. NOLAN: The same thing is starting to go on again now with you. MR. NEARY: Well no it is not.

I mean - MR .• NOLAN: He need order in the House. MR. NEARY: No,but I presume that was what you were referring to, the ~inister of Justice was up talking to the Speaker at the time. But anyway, Sir - }lR. HICIQ<AN: Point of order. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order has been raised. }ffi. HICKMAN: Just for the record, I have not been out of my seat since 3:00. ~1R. NEARY: Oh, I am sorry, Sir. It was the Premier. I am sorry. MR. HICIQIAN: All right. MR.

NEARY: However, Sir, be that as it may, I heard practically every word the member for Ferryland said and I must say I have to congratulate him for making a very fine presentation on behalf of his constituents. ~embers will recall that in his maiden speech in this hon. House the member for Ferryland I think topped all the rookies in the House, all the new members who have - SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! JIR. NEAPY: And a~ain today. ~ir, he has excelled himself in the presentation of this petition and I do hope, r1r. Speaker, that the member will be with us for a long time to come.

SOME RON. }!EMBERS: Hear, hear! 2417

March 5, 1976 Tape No. 928 NH- 2 }fR, SPEAKER: Are there any further comments on this petition? The hon. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I want to lend my support to the petition presented s o ably by the member for Ferryland Ulr. Power). I am glad that the petition finally got to the House and I give it my full support. !1R. SPEAKER: Are there any further comments on this petition? Are there any further petitions~ The hon. member for Fogo. CAPT. T.JINSOR: ~·r.

Speaker, I beg to present a petition, as a matter of fact I have four petitions,and as they are all pertaining to the same suhject matter I will present them all at once. The petitions are from different communities, namely Clarke's Head, Gander Bay South, Rogers Cove, Wings Point and again to Bay North. The prayer of the petition is for the building of a ne'~ elementary school in Gander Bay and the upgrading of educational facilities throughout the Gander Bay North echool system. Nr.

Speaker, I knmJ here the people concerned have made strong representation to the Terra Nova Integrated School Board, making their request known to them and I believe since this petition was signed and mailed to me that they have had favourable replies from that board. I certainly support the petition, Mr. Speaker, and ask that it he tahled and referred to the department to which it relates. ?-'R. SPEAKER: Are there any further comments on this petition. The hon. member for Lewisporte. ~IR. WHITE: Hr.

Speaker, I ,,,ould like to present a petition from the residents of Ho~ood, It is along the - l"Jl .• SPE~: Before doing so actually I had asked if there were any further comments on this petition, I ,Jant to ll'ake sure there are not because if they are then it becomes rather complicated when another petition is being presented. The hon. Minister of Education, 2418

~l arch 5, 1976 Tape No. 928 MR. HOUSE: I rise to support this petition to tbe extent that we can. As the liDn. member presented the petition he stated that he believed there has been some progress made w:Lth the various boards. I think I have had news of t.hat fact also. The point is this bon. F.ouse must realize that the Department of Education does ·not build sChools for the various school districts. The Department of Education supplies meney to the Denominational Education Committees who distribute it to school boards for the building of schools. Thank you. MR.

SPEAKER: Are there any further comments on this petition? The hon. member for Lewisporte. MR. 1'1RITE: Mr. Speaker, I have a petition along the same line as the one presented by my colleague, the member for Fogo . It is signed by the resi dent s of Horwood who would be involved in this particular school and they are calling for the building of a new elementary school in Gander Bay and the upgrading of educational facilitie s throu ghout the Gander Bay North school system . I too ~~ould like to lend my support to this pet i tion and would have it tabl~d and presented to the department to which it relates. m.

SPEAKER: Any further comments on this petition? ~419

!'arch 5, 19 76 Tape 929 IB-1 ~'R. SPEAKJ:l'_: !\re there any further petitions? The bon. member for Burgeo-Bay D'Espoir. VR. SH~- 'ClNS: ·~r. Speaker.' I 'li.•ould like to present a number of petitions,all certified orir.inals, Hr. Speaker, every last signature on them in the original, on the subject of electricity rates once again. I believe fuJly enoug:h has been said on the subject so I shall make my coiJJI'lents very brief and try not to be repetitious. The petitions come from n number of communities in rr_y own district of Burr:eo-Bay D'Espoir.

For exall'ple, the community or the tmm of Burgeo 1 over 900 names there; the town of !lame a; the cor.ur.unity of Conne P.iver; the community of !~orrisville in my district; and tl1en a number of other communities throughout the Province, Heart's Desire for example; St.

Joseph's, Salmonier; St. ~'ary's, St. !'ary's Bay, and so on. 'rhese petitions represent, I believe, well over a couple of thousand Fip:natures and a couple of thousanc' people, m~ i.nly in my mm clistri.ct hnt as I say, some petitions in my collE'><f'1iC 1 s dj strict, the member for Trinity-Bay de "erc1e (l'r, F, "owe) tdw is not with us!nnd also in certain other districts throu~1ont ~~e Province. Tl,e petitions all address themselves to the same l'latter, the r.rowing concern, the mounting frustration over escalating electricity costs. The member for St.

John's East U'r. ~·arshnll) yesterday in speakinr, to certain of these peti.tions made reference to the need to brinr. before the ilouse the facts of the case that we are discussing, to have a full revelation. On that certainly I agree "ith him •A•hole-he; ortec1ly. I believe that is t-1hat has to be clone, anrl I do hope He wUl hc>.ve A full-fledged ,~ebate on this mCJtter fairly soon so th;~t we c"n see what are the facts of the l'latter. I cert."linly concur ~d th membf!rs ,.,ho have spoken, that clectrici ty costs have to rel<lte to the cost of production ~nd certain other related factors.

But He are flying blind here, Yr. Speaker, on this matter. He e1re not being told Hhat the facts of the situation are. 2420

March 5, 1976 Tape 929 HR. SIMMONS: We do kno~1 that the cabinet in December made a decision, a decision that did not come to the light of day insofar as the average consnrner of electricity is concerned until January 22 IB-2 when my colleague from Terra Nova (Hr. Lush) made the fact public, having found it out the previous day himself. One wonders hm·7 long it would have been a secret decision hacl he not brought it to the attention of the public.

I am glad he did, I am not glad for the information he had to disclose,but I am glad that the public, the consumer did find out albeit a month or two later, but they did find out the kinds of decisions that had been taken. t; m~ I can only assume that the cabinet had at its command the facts of the situation, and so it is only a matter no"'• ~!r, Speaker, for the cabinet and the House Leader to decide ~~hen that debate shC'u] d take place in the House so we can have the same advantage of the facts that the cabinet has had. I have referred, Mr. Speaker, to the comments of the member for St.

John's East (}'r. t'arshall) and that part of the remarks ~~ith Hhich I agree. At the appropriate time, r•r. Speaker, we Hill be able, I hope 1 to enter into a full debate on that. This presenting of petitions the last day or so has gone awfully close to being a debate at times. But I do want to reject, l!r. Speaker, the suggestion that has been made - certainly I do not endorse it - that the couple of hours we devoted yesterday and now again today to presenting petitions, I want to reject the assertion made by one member that somehow this was presenting petitions ad nauseam. t~r.

Speaker, what we are doing here, at least what I am doing, I feel and I think I speak for my colleagues, is exercising a basic democratic right, and I do not see ].t as being properly described whel'l a member refers to it ad nauseam. This, Mr. Speaker, is the right of the people of this Province to petition their House of Assembly. They have done so and they are very serious about this matter. 2421

l:arch 5, 1976 Tape 929 IB-3 !-'!!. su~:o:-~s: T have been distnrbe'l with the attitude :in the House in the l11st fl;!l4 days as thour,h somehnw people are goi ng t o take this inc rease for r.ranted . Hell, ' 'r. Spe11Y.er, they are not, and the net message in those petitions , and petitions which are to come, ~~r . Speaker - and l know there ore many others to come from Cartwright and Goose Day and IJoody Point and ("omer Brook nnd from Howley and r.la renville and Trepassey and St . l.al1rence ancl a number of other communities, yet to come, 2422

March 5, 1976 Tape no. 930 Page 1 - mw Mr. Simmons. I am told,from telegrams we have received and telephone calls, and they all state, Mr. Speaker, unmistakably and clearly the same message. This is not the end of the protest. This is not something people are going to become reconciled to. This is just the beginning, Mr. Speaker, the beginning of a legitimate protest which must find its answer in a proper examination of the facts in this House in the not too distant future, I hope the next week or so. In the meantime, Mr. Speaker, the message is clear.

The message must be clear, clear to all who sit on the government benches, clear to those who sit in Cabinet. The government has got to come to grips with this matter. They ·did not with its decision in December. It certainly did not even to pretend to come to grips by keeping that decision secret in December. It has got to come to grips with the matter, Mr.

Speaker, and these petitions -though they have taken two or three hours yesterday and an hour or so today -these petitions will bear fruit if the freeze, the temporary, the three weeks or so freeze that the Premier announced, the freeze in the rates until the end of April, if that freeze continues for a significant period, for an extended period beyond April 30 then, Mr. Speaker, those petitions, those signatures will not have been in vain. It will not have been a charade. It will not be described accurately as 'ad nauseam~ Rather, Mr.

Speaker, it will the proper exercise of a basic democratic right which has borne fruit, and the fruit in this case, ~rr. Speaker, I hope, will be that the electricity rates will be kept within reason and that whatever the rates will be in the future, they will be based on consultation with this House, based on full dialogue in this House and not instead a decision made secretly in Cabinet and kept under cover until somebody finds it out and exposes it to the electricity consumers. It is my great pleasure, Mr.

Speaker, to present these petitions on behalf of the petitioners and to request that they be referred to the appropriate department. 24Z3

March 5, 1976 MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: Tape'no. 930 Page 2 - mw Are there any furth er connnents on this petition? The hon. member for LaPoile. Nr. Speaker, I rise to support the prayer of the petitions just presented by the hon. member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons). I presume, Sir, the petitions the hon. member presented are the ones as a result of a spontaneous reaction from his constitutents and not the organized movement that has been undertaken by the Leader of the Opposition in preparing a petition here in Confederation Building and sending it out right across the Province.

Some of these petitions, by the way,have been returned to me. SOME liON. :1DUlERS: HR. SIMHONS: MR. NEARY: HR. SIMMONS: !'!R. NEARY: HR. SIMMONS: HR. NEARY: NR. SOO!ONS: Oh, oh! Did you present those? I might say for the hon - Did the bon. member present those? Yes, I presented some of these. They were not addressed to you. They were addressed to me. No way! MR. NEARY: I beg your pardon. The bon. Leader of the Opposition's name was torn off the bottom, and they were signed by people and returned to me. MR. SIMMONS: ~ '!R. NEARY: You presented those? Shocking!

And I might say for the benefit of the hon. member, Sir, that these petitions have been circulated in my own district, even the water committee down in LaPoile. I was down there the other day for tlqo days and the chairman of the water committee got one of these petitions that were circulating and he asked me what to do with it, and I told him what he could do with id But in the meantime, Sir, I am happy to support these petitions.

The member did not indicate whether they were just a spontaneous reaction from the people or the organized ~ovements of the type that Jim McGrath, the technique that Jim HcGrath uses in Ottawa. 2424

March 5, 1975 Tape no. 930 Page 3 - mw Mr. Neary. I might say, Sir, also for the benefit of the House, to correct an erroneous statement that the bon. member made,about 2,000 or 2,500 of the names I presented yesterday were from constituents in my own district of LaPoile, but I was presenting them with a group. They were included in the 24,000 signatures. But the first official single petition that I presented was today in this hon. House.

So although, Sir, I am happy to support the petitions presented, I would like for the bon. members when they are presenting their petitions to indicate whether they are a spontaneous reaction or an organized movement on behalf of the Opposition. Because, Sir, this nastiness. this rudeness, this matter of accusing the government of doing something secretly of, "I am shocked! I am amazed! Or too little, too lat:e." is not going to help the situation, Sir. We see that happening now in the case of the oil refinery.

"oh, they were hiding something, they should have told us before the election." Well that is not going to restore the jobs down in Come By Chance. The government did not secretly do this because they notified Newfoundland Light and Power Company. Newfoundland Light and Power Company notified the Public Utilities Board. They were getting ready for a hearing. Everybody knew it, and it was not something that the Leader of the Opposition discovered, suddenly one ~ay ae woke up and he was shocked or amazed as he usually is. Everybody knew it, Sir. I took it for granted that everybody knew it.

I was on the campaign trail ten days before that crowd even got wound up. ~ffi. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: And so, Sir, politics - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I must require the hon. gentleman to keep his remarks within the subject matter of these petitions. MR. NEARY: Well the point I am making, Sir, is getting rude or nasty, · about the thing is not going to help the situation. What we have got to do is keep this matter above partisan politics. We have to work together 2425

March 5, 1976 Tape 931 PK- 1 on either side of the House and not start sniping at one another like the member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) was just doing with the p.overn~ent. Let us do it man~fashion. If we are going to do it, we all do it to~ether, we sink or swim, we rise or fall together. Forget the petty little politics, game of politics that they are playing. The election was over in September. AN HON. MEHBF.R: -------- Hear, :tear! Let us get down to brass tacks and do something for the people for a change. And when we do it this House ~1ill do it. And we will do it together. SOl-iE HON.

JI.!E~ffiF.RS: Hear, hear! ---------- !·IR, NEARY: Never mind this little -------- · Hear, hear! ~1R,_By,ARY: - nasty, snide remarks that you get flung across the House. SO}ffi HON. HEMBFR: - --- - llear, hear! !1R,_E__EARY: He are getting tired of that, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: Are there any further comments on this petition? The hon. member for Terra 1lova. J.IR, T. LUSH: l'r. Speaker, I stand to sup"(lort these petitons. I find it absolutely disgusting, absolutely nauseating that people should he trying to gain credit for the presentation of petitions.

If the people of Newfoundland could only see what is going on here today I am sure they would t·•onder at the seriousness of the presentations. I "ant to address this House to say I take credit for nothing other than to the spontaneous re?ction and the spontaneous response to the people who elected me and I presented these petitions in that spirit, and I obviously feel SO}!E RON. MEMBERS: Rear, hear! HR.

LUSH: - ·---- - that other petitions were presented in the same spirit and I wish to support the petitions presented by all members and hope that we take it in this light that we not make a joke out of it, It is 242&

.. Harch 5, 1976 Tape 931 PK - 2 Mr. Lush: a serious matter, these petitions from thousands and thousands of Newfoundlanders and - SOME EON. ~MBER: Hear, hear! MR. LUSH: - hoping that their members would present these things in the matter in which they were intended. I "'ish to say that I support the petitions presented by the member from Burgee- Bay d' Espoir ('·'r. Simmons) and all other petitions presented in this Honse yesterday and today. Hear, hear! ~ffi.. SPEAKER: ------ Are there any other further comments on this petition? Sm!E HO~. ~!EMBERS : -----· Hear, hear! 11R.

SPEAKER: The hon. member for Naskaupi. 'IP.. _J_~GOUDIE: '·!r. Speaker, I wish also to add my support to the petition presented by the member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir. I support the prayer of that particular fetition, and also to point out that I do not have a petition from my mm ;-articular district to present, but that does not mean that we do not have similar problems in our district.

As a matter of fact, I can substantiate the fact that <1e do have problems by presenting bills to this House 1 if it ••ere necessary, of about Sl30,$140, $150 a month for electricity in my district right now anrl that is just for lights, not even talking about electric heat for the horne. So I just wanted to let the House of AsseP!hly kno" that we do have the similar problems in the district of Naskaupi and in other districts in Labrador and I heartedly support that petition. SO~rr: RON. J'iE!'.ffiERS : Hear, hear! '1-ffi.. SPEAKER: Are there any comments on this petition? The han. Leader of the Opposition. HR.

ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, may I say just a word or t~,·o in support of the petition presented so very effectively by the gentleman, my friend and colleague from Burgeo-Bay d' Espoir and in respect to lvhich remarks, very pertinent, and very helpful remarks that were made by the gentleman from Naskaupi (!fr. Goudie) and the gentlemen, my colleague and friend from Terra Nova (~fr. Lush). I am not going to respond to the provocations of the gentleman from LaPoile who would dea1:ly love to try t!?. embroil me in that. I do 2427

March 5, 1971'. Tape 931 PK - 3 Mr. Roberts; want to say,though,with respect to some statements he made that I have had a search made through the petitions which he tabled yesterday, and I will not say that he did not table the petition from the '!unicipal Harker's Union, all I will say is that it is not among the petitions which the clerk's office are holding which he tabled yesterday. So it has become lost at some point Your Honour, assuming in fact that it was tabled. It has become lost at some point between here and the clerk's office. It is not there at present. Hr.

Speaker, I think these petitions are well - ''ffi. NEARY: As a matter of fact somebody - MR.___!_OBFRTS: ~!r. Speaker - 1'1R. NEARY: put a 1,rhole box of them back in my office this morninr. MR . ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman has not got the floor. The han. gentleman had the floor and I did not interrupt him. I would ask him to extend the same courtesy unless he wishes to rise on a point of order or some proper procedure, 11r. Speaker. MR. NEARY: Do not get nasty. Just carry on. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please.

HR • ROBFRT-fi : And I would ask the han. gentleman please to contain himself. l!is dislike of me seems to be growing daily and that, Sir, is his problem, not mine or anybody else's. But, Mr. Speaker, the- MR. NEARY: That is why you are not Premier of Newfoundland. ~m. ROBERTS: -point which I wish to make, Sir, - MR. SIMMONS: That is certainly a compliment'. 1-IR. ROBERTS: The point which I wish to make is that I think these petitions are very well taken. Of course, many of them are responding to initiatives which I took as Leader of the Opposition. There is no secret about that. I am quite proud of it.

Indeed I would suggest one could be doing less than one's duty as Leader of the Opposition if one did not give people the opportunity to express their feelings. The petitions were prepared obviously by me. They were sent out with a letter from me, which said if you 242·8

~larch S, 1976 Tape 932 IB-1 MR. ROBERTS: support the position we have taken, sign the petition. The people '"ho signed the petition did so freely and voluntarily and because they believed in it. That is fine. I make no apology for that. I am quite proud of it and I think the thousands of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians who have signed these petitions, their signatures speak for themselves. There were no copies in any which we tabled. The hon. gentleman from LaPoile (Hr. Neary) might want to look at his own lot and see the one from Ho~1ley which had a photocopy in it despite the rules to the contrary. Mr.

Speaker, this matter of electricity rates is extremely serious. I would hope the House Leader or the Pre~ier will assure us that we "'ill get an opportunity to debate it, not just on the estimates when it could be brought up,presumably,although I a!'l not so sure because I do not know what the estimates ,.,ill contain for the Hydro Corporation or what they will contain for the Public Utilities Board, the tuo subjects to which it might be related, but I think this is worthy of a debate. There have been a lot of good comments made on the petitions these last t'vo ctays.

I would assume there will be more petitions to come. I know of a number of people l<ho have told me they are taking up petitions and intend to send them in. We Hill have more comments. But I think this is important enougb that at some point in the next two or three "'eeks perhaps we could set aside a day or two. It should be a fixed limit nnd not one of these open-ended debates that goes on forever, but a day or two by agreement amonr: all sides in the House, and then have a debate on this question of electricity rates. Let the government state their case. They obviously feel they have one. Let them state it.

Then the Opposition and the other members of the House can state their views, and the press, of course, will inform the public of this Province, and we will let the people then decide on the basis of full information. Our main complaint has been the secrecy with which the government did it. They adopted a cabinet decision in

March 5, 1976 Tape 932 IB-2 ~'T'. r !\Rf 'TS : December and no communication ~ras made of that until my colleague from Terra Nova (Hr. Lush) discovered it, not by any improper procedure but discovered it j_n the normal course of his work as a member for that district and he made it public and of course all followed from there. l'r. Speaker, I think the debate - I am sorry,it is not a debate, Your Honour - the comments have been well taken and I think the exercise has been most useful.

Indeed, Sir, I think it has been more useful than many other thj_ngs which this House will do in this session or the rest of this session because it has shown the people of Newfoundland that there is a means of making their feelings known directly on the floor of this House of Assembly. I think that is crucially important and I think it is something we should do more often. snME HON. ~'EI < BERS: Hear, hear! ~'R. SPEAKER: Are there any further comments on this petition? Are there any further petitions?

PRESENTING PEPORTS BY STANDING ftND SPECIAL COt'}<ITTEES: ~'1' . • srEAKET<: The hon. l~inister of Finance. :1'. !YlOJW: l'r. Speaker, I have to tahle the annual report of the Newfoundland and Labrador Computer Services Limited. There are copies available in your office for distribution to the hon. members of the House.

We also have here special warrants which have to be tabled in the ~aunt of $4,683,500 on the various subheads: Legislative, $203,000; Salaries - they are mostly salary increases and increases in costs of homes for the aged and that sort of thinp. /ln~ray, Sir, there are copies here for all of the various parties represented on the opposite side of the House if they are interested. They are both there, MP .• SPEAKER: The hon. l'inister of Provincial Affairs. YR. lnJRPHY: Nr. Speaker, I would like to table the regulations pertaining to the insurers of automobiles. It has been Gazetted and

Narch 5, 1976 Tape 932 IB-3 everything else but this is just a formality . MR. ROBERTS: This is a board? ~1R. MURPHY: Yes, pertaining to compulsory insurance. YR. SPEAKER: The han. ~inister of Forestry and Agriculture. ~'R.

ROUSSEAU: I would like to table some regulations that l·rere made and published in the Newfoundland Gazette from ¥arch 14 through December 12, 1975 in respect to the Newfoundland Egg Harketing Amendment Scheme and the Natural Pr!"ducts ~'arketing Designation of Inspectors Order, 1975; the Natural Products ~rarketing C'esignation of Inspectors Amendment Order, 1975; the Natural Products Harketing Ne"foundland ~ ·isccllaneous Provisions Amendment Jlegulations, 1975. NOTICES OF HOTION: FP. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MF. HICKYAN: Yr.

Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrm v ask leave to introduce the following resolution: Y.'l!EP.EAS the wreck of the longliner San Juan on or about the twenty­ fourth day of February, 1976 off the East Coast of Newfoundlanc resulted in the loss of life of the two men on board that ill-fatecl ship has once again cJearly indicated the need for ade<Juate Air- Sea Rescue Services in :-lewfoundland; Al'ID \JIIEREAS it is in the public interest there he a judici<~l enquiry into the loss of the San Juan; NOl~ TI!E'!lEl'OP.E

BE IT rESOLVED that this House urges the r;overnment of Canada and/or the }'inister of Transport of C;macla to il!lmediately appoint a judicial enquiry to enquire into the I•Teck of t :te lonr;liner S:m Juan and that the terms of reference of such enquiry be sufficiently broad to enable the judge so appointed to enquire into the loss at sea in January of this year of two men out of St.

John 1 s,Nev ,foundland and two men out of }'or ton 1 s Harbour, Ne~vfoundland, and to enquiry as well into the procedures of Air- Sea Search and Rescue operations in Newfoundland; AND FURTHER the government of Canada to be urged to establish an adequate Air- Sea Search and Rescue in the Province of Newfoundland 11ithou t delay. 2431

~·' arch 5, 19 76 Tape 932 ~'P.. lliCIQlAN: l!r. Speaker, while I am on my feet I also give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce the following bills: A bil]. "An Act To Amend The Newfoundland and Labrador Amateur Sports Federation Act, 1972." IB-4 A bill, "An Act Further To A.mend The Quieting Of Titles Act." 243Z

Harch 5, 1976. Tape 933 TU' - 1 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, let me first of all congratulate the Ninister of Justice on, we will call it the San Juan Resolution. I think it is an excellent one and I think it should he, I hope it will be called for debate early on in the session. Hr. Speaker, I would ask the unanimous consent of the House to intronuce the following motion. I must ask unanimous consent because there is at present on the Order Paper a motion standing in my name.

I have proposed that the motion be adopted without debate because of the urgency of its suh1ect matter. I believe it does reflect the feeling of every member of the House.

"Resolved that this House reaffims its helief in the desirability of the seal hunt and the methods by lvhich it is carried out ,by landsmen in particular and that this House neplores the threatened acts by members of the Greenpeace Foundation of Vancouver, British Columbia .vho have threatened to attempt to nisrupt the l071i seal hunt and this House in the strongest possible terms urges the Government of Canada to take all steps within their power to prevent any disruption of the lawful activities of those engaged in the seal hunt and further this House urges in the strongest possilJle terms that the Hinister of Justice for the Province take the necessary and appropriate steps to insure that the rights of those lawfully engagen in the seal hunt are fully protected." I have copies here, Hr.

Speaker, for Your Honour and for gentle!'len opposite. !ffi.. Sl'FAKFR: The Leader of the Opposition has now asked for ]eave to introduce the motion "hich he has iust read because the bon. gentleman has a motion on the Order Paper I must therefore ascertain whether he does have leave. The hon. Minister without Portfolio. HR. WELLS: Mr. Speaker, what I would suggest,if jt is agreeahle,is that having just heard this for the first time, We would like to see a copy of it and perhaps later this afternoon by leave we could indicate our feelings on the matter. ~1R.

ROBERTS: That is fine with me, Your Honour, and a copy is available for the government members. 2433 ·,.

March 'i, l07fi. Tape 933 RH - 2 }ffi . SPEAKF.R: The hon. Minister of Social Services. Hml. C. RRFT1': }~r. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a hill, "An Act Further To Amend The Child Helfare Act, 1<172." HR. SPEAKER: The hon. }!inister of Health . RON. H. COLT. INS: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduc.e a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Hedical Act," and also a bill, "An Act To Amend The Pharmaceutical Associations Act." MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Ninister of Forestry and Agriculture. HON. J. ROUSSEAU: Mr.

Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Crown Lands Act," and also, Mr. Speaker, a bill, "An Act To Am.end The Development Areas Lands Act." ANSHFRS TO QUESTII1NS FOR HJUCTI NOTICE JTAS RFFN GIVEN (See index) 1!R. SPEAKKR: Tbe hon. l!inister of Forestry and Agriculture. '!R. ROTJSSEA1.1: The hon. the member from T1o1illingate, no. 21\'1, no. 2R8 which 1 have ,iust tahled hut I would like to if I may have a few words on this one because this question pertains to the number of forest fires in the Province for the past five years.

It will take a few minutes of the House, }lr. Speaker, just to indicate the di ff.erence in last year's situation in respect to the past f5.ve years which I think is one that should be brought to the attention of the people of this Province.

It was a very bad season in rP.spect to forest fires as my col1.eap.ue, the present Hinister of Health is 1¥ell aware of .He worked CJUite hard last year and I th]nlr spent more time in forest fire areas than he did in the House of Assembly doing all he could and I arn sure he is aware of the problems we had last year during the forest fire season, and I think deserves the compliments of the people of this T'rovince for the job l1e dicl during a very bad fire season. smm mm. '!F'1ffiFRf:: Hear, hear! '!R.

ROUSSI:!tll: Rut in ]'170-71 - I have to go across or down, so I ~Till go down -the numher of forest fires we have had per year: 194 in 1970-71; 14? in 1971-72; 247 in 1972-73; 102 only in 1973-74; 1974-75 '~e had 2116; and last year 1¥e had 253. Now these numbers are not great in a sense 2434

March 5, 1976. MR. ROUSSEAU: Tape '133 RH - 3 that there is no widespread amongst them. We look at the areas hurned in acres, Mr. Speaker. There were 22,000 - 23,000, I will round off to the nearest thousand, in 1970-71; there were 6,nnn in 1971-72; there were 107,000 in 1972-73; 22,000 2435

March 5, 1976 Tape No. 934 NM- 1 MR. ROUSSEAU: in 1974-75, and last year, ~r. Speaker, there were in acres burned in this Province, 431,000 acres. The wood destroyed in cords, Mr. Speaker, 16,000 in 1970-71; 7,500 in 1971-72; 70,000 in 1972-73; 500 in 1973-74; 1,200 in 1974-75; and 153,000 cords in 1975-76. MR. SMALLWOOD: For the whole Province. MR. ROUSSEAU: For the whole Province. MR . S~~LWnoD: Including Labrador. Ml. ROUSSEAU: Inc.luding Labrador, yes. to be part of the Province. MR. NEARY: For the time being. lve consider Labr ador MR. ROUSSEAU: Oh no.

The value,if I may, the other figure we have which is the last question the hon. member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) asked, the value in dollars and of course these are estimates of the department and they are used in the same relative terms: $24,000 in 1970-71; $10,300 in 1971-72; in 1972-73,$115,000; 1973-74,$1,000; in 1974-75,$3,600 and last year,l975-76,$459,000 of a very prime resource of our Province. So last year's figures 253 fires, 431,000 acres burned, 153,000 cords destroyed of a total value of $459,000.

I think that these figures alone will indicate the problems we have in respect of that, a very bad season. We have had one before many years ago but this of course is not unlike the problems we might have if the fisheries became depleted that quickly. It is a resource that we have and it is going to be a very bad one if this continues in the future years . We also have answers to question 289, 292, 295, 296, 297 and 294, 303 and 313, 315, 318 and number 695. That is the question by the hon. member from LaPoile ('Hr. Neary), MR. NEARY: What one was that? }~.

ROUSSEAU: Position of the General Manager, and or Secretary of the Board of Newfoundland Farm Products. MR. NEARY: For Farm Products? 2436

Karch 5, 1976 Tape No. 934 N}l- 2 I'R. !IOUSSEAtl: Farm Products, the General Secretary and so on. The rest are in the name of the hon . the gentleman from Twillingate (Yr. Smallwood), and that leaves about two questi ons , Sir, or three questions left. 'ffi. SPEAKER: The hon . member fo r Twillingate. YR. ~LWOOn: 'ir . Speaker, I asked just over three months ago on November 24 , something around 450 question. They were all printed in the Order Paper of that day.

I want to thank the minist ers 1~ho have given me about 139 answers, including those from the minister today, and I want to suggest gentl y to the minis ter s that they have a little swifter action in giving me answers to more than 300 questions to which they have not given answers after these three months or rather more. I fully appreciate the fact that Christmas intervened and the New ~ear and other holf 4ay intervened and that minis t ers , some of t hem, have been extraordinarily busy , I appreciate all that .

Nevertheless may I suggest gently that with regard to more than 300 answers that I have not yet received there might be a little swifter action from now on. 243l

J1arch S, 1976 Tape no. 935 ORAL QUESTIONS: Page 1 - mw }ffi. SPEAK£R: The hon. member for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir. }1R. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Premier. It relates to the Come By Chance issue. I am aware that government intends to have a full-scale debate, which I welcome. In the meantime I am wondering if the Premier - notwithstanding the debate is scheduled - if the Premier would indicate to the House whether subsequent to finding out that the refinery was in financial difficulty, whether there were some efforts made in an attempt to keep the refinery open?

And if so, if he could indicate what the nature of these attempts were? }fit. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. }1R. MOORES: Mr. Speaker, only too glady. I think that is the subject for debate hopefully within the next week because obviously the answer to that question is going to take much more than the half hour that is allowed in the question period. MR. SPEAKER: }1R, SIMHONS: A supplementary by the bon. member for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir. Mr.

Speaker, would the Premier then indicate whether there are now any efforts ongoing, with or without his government's involvement to reopen the refinery, if he can indicate whether that is the case? And if so, what kind of progress is being made? I cannot see how this would in anyway prejudice what is going on in the courts and I would hope he could give us even a brief answer. I am aware that to explain the negotiations would take hours but could he, at least, indicate whether there are discussions going on with a view to reopening the refinery?

And if he could indicate what progress is being made and indeed if it is not confidential, who is involved or what companies may be involved? lfR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. MR. MOORES: Mr. Speaker, that would be totally inappropriate before the hearings on Monday or Tuesday. The hon. member should know that. The situation is that every effort is being made with all parties who are presently involved in the refinery, and any other interested parties at this time. would be dealing with the Interim Receiver as opposed to 2438

March 5, 1976 Tape no. 935 Page 2 - mw Mr. Moores. the government. I think it would be very wrong for this government to undermine any other interests at this particular time before the courts have made a decision. MR. SPEAKER: I recognize the bon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the bon. the Premier.

Would the Premier indicate to the House the position of his administration in connection with this crowd of crackpots that are coming into Newfoundland, if they have not already arrived, called the Greenpeace and what steps his government has taken to protect the seal fishery in this Province against such crackpots? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Premier. MR. MOORES: Mr. Speaker, I think the position of the government is very similar to every other member in this House. Regarding the Greenpeace group from Vancouver,! think these people have been very badly informed.

I think they are very badly guided in the present action they are taking. I think the federal government's position of any interference unlawfully in the seal hunt itself, that prosecutions will be determined from that,I think,is wise. I think co-operation from anyone in this Province other than one of kindness and more or less mental help to these people would not be in order. I think in fact that the Greenpeace society in this particular case - they have done some good work in1the past, Sir, I might say- in this particular case. have been totally misdirected and are totally uninformed.

And this government, as I am sure every Newfoundlander, will try to set that record straight upon their arrival. MR. SPEAKER· Is there a supplementary? MR. NEARY: No, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: I recognize the hon. Leader of the Opposition. I will come back to the han. gentleman later. MR. ROBERT'S: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. 2439'

March 5, 1976 Tape no. 935 Page 3 - mw Mr. Roberts. My question relates to Come By Chance again, and it has nothing to do with anything which will be discussed in the hearing before the Supreme Court on Monday. I want to know, Mr. Speaker, what is the situation with respect to the severance pay for the men at the union? I understand that the collective agreement under which they worked does not provide for severance pay except for technological change and this is not such a situation. The question is: Whether they will receive any severance pay at all? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. MR.

MOORES: The position is, Mr. Speaker, in that regard, we are dealing here with a bankruptcy proceeding. The hon. Leader of the Opposition says that it has no bearing on the court decision on Tuesday or Monday. It has a very definitive bearing as to whether in fact there is a bankruptcy or not, because the rules under our bankruptcy proceeding would be very different than if it was another, if you like, more normal sort of transaction.

What we have done as a government is have assured the union that we will underwrite the cost of a lawyer to see that their rights are protected, plus the government itself in any way possible and legally will also do all possible to protect the same workers. 2440

March 5, 1976 Tape No. 936 N}'- 1 MR. SPEAKEP.: The hon. member for LaPoile. 'HR. NEARY: !'!r. Speaker, I ~vould like to direct a question to the ~inister of Transportation and Communications, Sir. Would the minister inform the House if the government, or his department, have taken any steps to restrict the load limit on the Trans-Canada Highway on tractor trailers and other heavy equipment on the Trans-Canada Highway, especially the Trans-Canada Highway west of Deer Lake, and if any action has been taken would the minister inform the House what action that his government have taken on this matter? MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. ~. MORG~~: Mr. Speaker, no action has been taken to date. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Twillingate. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr.

Speaker, would the hon. the ~inister of Industrial and Pural Development tell us if it is his intention to report orally or in writing to the House on h:l s recent admirable and I lvould imagine exciting visits to Finland and No~vay and Sweden and Denmark and the United Kingdom,and tell us in some detail what he did in each country, how long he spent in each country, how many meetings he had, and generally give us something to perhaps encourage us on the lvork that he did and, if I am permitted,Your Honour,! would address the same question precisely to the minister of Forestry and Agriculture in connection with his visits to Iceland and Scotland and Sweden and Norway and Finland and Denmark,and I am sure that this House would be greatly enlightened, and,I hope,encouraged by the remarks that they would make,and if the 1'inister of Fisheries were here, I would ask him if he intends to do the same thing with regard to his visits to Norway, Denmark, Germany, Spain, Portugal, and the United Kingdom.

I am not to be counted among those who sneered at those visits. I approve thoroughly and I would hope that other ministers, I am looking at the 1-11nister of Transportation,is it, and the ~inister 2441

!'arch 5, 1976 Tape '<o . 936 w. - 2 HP.. S~'ALHIOnn: nf "unicipal Affairs and others and wondering Hhy they too are not hustling about looking for business for Newfoundland that night end in creating jobs for people. YP. NEAPY: Do not encourage them. ~{f· • S~~ALLHOf)D: I encourage them warmly and ardently, and the way to get .i obs for '<eJoTfoundlanders is to go away from Newfoundland and seek the people who will create the industries. I found that and they are finding it and I applaud them for it. Could I have an answer from perhaps the two ministers who are here? ~.

SPEAKER: The han. ~-•inister of Industrial and Rural Development. }'R. LUNDRIGAN: I 'muld like to thank the han. minister for his breadth of vision as the elder statesman in the House and it always fascinates me that he has this kind of preception of the position of the Province in international matters.

The rules at the present moment perhaps would not permit a detailed answer but I will assure him as the minister, I am sure perhaps the Premier will want to make an addition to my comments that given the first opportunity we '"ill make a statement of significance in the sense of reporting at least to the House and perhaps I might advise him that I just got back from Guiana and I have made some brief preliminary comments to the public, perhaps I will make some statements to the House on the given occasion. MR.SPEAKER: The han, the Premier.

PRE~IER MDORF.S: On the same question, it is of such major significance in effect as to the direction that this government will be going in the next two to three years that I think it should be pointed out now that not only will various programmes, not just from these trips but from the reasoning behind these trips be coming forward in estimates and in various times in this House but I think in this particular case it would be very wise to set aside a couple of days in this House wh~n exactly what the objectives are of the government can be clearly defined to the members of the House, what type of projects, 2442

}larch 5, 1976 Tape No. 936 PFE~'IER ~<()ORES: what type of programmes are being approached and in which manner. I think, speaking on behalf of all the resource departments involved and also on behalf of the government, I think that 1~ould be a fair comment. 2443

11arch 5, 1976 Tape no. 937 Page MR. SPEAKER: I believe the hon. minister is answering a previous question? HR. ROUSSEAU: Yes. Just a few comments and that will come, but I can assure, and I can appreciate the words of the han. member from Twillingate (Hr. Smalh:ood). By the way, I might say that I was there for twenty-five days. I had a Saturday and a Sunday off in Oslo, and a Saturday and a Sunday - ~!R. SYIALLWOOD: How many days? SO}ill HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! HR. ROUSSEAU: HR. SHALLHOOD: MR. ROUSSEAU: Twenty-five. Days off? One second now. You know, twenty-five days, and I am willing, as we all are - SOHE liON.

HE~ERS: Oh, oh! MR. ROUSSEAU: Hr. Speaker, I am willing as we all are to table the number of meetings, we had five, six, seven a day - you know, PREtliER HOORES: Do not get on tte defensive. HR. ROUSSEAU: No, no. But quite apart from that, and two days in Copenhagen in which we !~ad a de-briefing session when the Premier came over, and I can assure the han. member for Twillingate, who is the only gentleman I am referring to now who had enough faith in us to say what he has just said, and I can assure the gentleman that he will not be embarrassed by his faith in the trip that we had. HR.

SPEAKER: The han. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: llr. Speaker, I would like to put a question to the han. Pretaier. Would the han. - if I can get the han. Premier's attention there for a moment - would the han. Premier 1ndicate to the House what kind of an affect in the federal government's new policy on redfish - the reduction in redfish quotas - what affect it is going to have on fish plants in Newfoundland, especially those on the South Coast? And would the Premier indicate what plants he thinks might be affected by this new federal regulation? ~!R. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. ::'REMIER HOORES: Hr.

Speaker, first of all the plants that will be affected, obviously, are all those plants that handle redfish which are

March 5, 1976 Tape 937 PK - 2 Premier Moores: located on the South Coast from Port aux Basques,! guess as far East as Harbour Breton. AN liON. MEMBER: Gaultois, Harbour Breton- PREMIER MOORES: Gaultois, Harbour Breton that area. Th~ Burin Peninsula lesser so.I think that is mostly flat fish.

Obviously, Sir, the stand taken by the Federal Minister of Fisheries is one of major concern for employment in that area, and equally the very fact that the quotas could be taken so rapidly is also of great concern, particularly when I understand some of the quotas, some of the catches that were taken just holus-bolus and a lot of the fish possibly not handled in a quota conservation sense. There is a great deal of concern about the whole approach in this particular regard. We have made our stand clear.

Of course, we are very concerned about the welfare of the plant employees in this regard,and the fishermen fishing redfish in the Gulf. Probably our greatest concern is Newfoundland's share of the Canadian quota at this time. There is also a great deal more tonnage allocated to the Russians this year, in areas other than the Gulf, for redfish which we believe was very bad jurlgment in the Canadian representation in ICNAF to ensure that we did not have more redfish reserves in areas other than the Gulf which could have done in now the same job as the lack of,or the cancellation of the quota in the Gulf.

It is something that we are looking at obviously with deep concern and one l>hich we will be operating with the fish trades, the unions and hopefully the federal govern ment in trying to resolve. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Windsor-Buchans. MR. G. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct this question to the Premier. The Premier and the government have indicated that they are making legal advice available to the workers of Come By Chance to ascertain whether or not they are entitled to servance pay. ~~at one is entitled to in this life and what one gets is two different things. My question, Mr.

Speaker, is that assuming there is entitlement will 2445

March 5, 197fi Tape 937 PK - 3 servance pay take precedence over any other liens against Come By Chance, both from the secured and unsecured creditors? "MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Hr. Speaker, this is why,exactly one of the reasons why we asked or we suggested to the union representation yesterday that a lawyer be attained to make sure this happens. I understand - that it is only an opinion, it is not a fact - that the rights of the employees come beforp any perferred secured or unsecured creditor, this is as I have been led to believe so far.

Definitely under various acts it is typical, and this is why we suggested getting a la1qer and this is why we will work on the employees behalf, hut certainly the inclination at this point certainly would be that •ray. But to make a definitive statement on it would be wrong for me. ''R • SPF.AKER: - ·-- --- The hon. Leader of the Opposition. '!R. F.. ROBERTS: ~1r. Speaker, a supplementary with respect to the nuestion asl ed by my colleague from \Vindsor-Buchans and the ans1~er hy the Premier: The problem is not so much with money that may be owed to the men in respect of wages.

You know, the legal advice which -:- have is to the same effect that that does take a degree of priority over creditors, both secured and unsecure.i. The question is •rith respect to servance rav which is not JTloney owed, it would be money that 1,;ould be paj_d to tl1e men as col'lpensat:ion of the fact their jobs are lost. "'R. SPFAKFR: The hon, the Premier. PRIDUER HOORF.S : I guess I am the 1~rong 2446

r~arch 5, 1976. PRENIFR MOORES: Tape 938 RH - 1 one to be arguing this, Mr. Speaker, because there are lawyers on both sides of the House here. As I understand it, back wages automatically come first. Vacation pay under the Vacation Pay Act comes first. Severance pay, if it is decided that it is legitimate claim, I would assume would come first. If it is not~and some special arrangement has to he made~that is lvhere the grey area comes in to decide the whole thing. !1R. ROBERTS: necided by lvhom? PREMIER MOORES: Pardon? MR. ROBERTS: Decided by whom? PREMIER MOORES : Well,that is just it.

By the receiver, by the legalities that presently exist. hle have got our people working on it, giving them a lawyer to try to come up with obviously what is most beneficial to these people. "!R. SPEAKER: The han. r'ember for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir. t1R. R. SIMMONS: ~lr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Premier in the absence of the Minister of Fisheries. It relates to the new red fish quota in the Culf.

I am wondering if the Premier lvouJ d indicatP '"hat the government's stand is with reference to the new quotas anrl whether it supports the action of the "Federal Government or what; and secondly, whether the government, either the Minister of "Fisheries or the Premier or some officials of the Department of Fisheries,were consulted prior to the decision having been made to limit the quota in the Gulf? PREMIER NOORES: The first part of the question I answered just a moment ago, Mr. Speaker, to the best of my ability.

The second part of the question is one that I will have to ask the nepartment of Fisheries exactly 1vhat consultation, if any, was held, ~!R. SPEAJCER: Is there a supplementary? MR. SI~ONS: No, Mr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKFJI: The hon. member for LaPoile. ~1R. NEARY: Hr. Speaker, I would like to put a question to the hon. the Premier. Would the hon. the Premier tell the House what effect the decision made by DREE recently not to grant a $3 million grant or loan to Eastern 2447

March 5, 1976. HR. NF'AR.Y: Tape 938 RH - 2 Provincial Airways, what effect this is going to have on EPA's expansion, proposed expansion in Gander? NR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PRID1IER MOORF'S: Mr. Speaker, first of all, to get that straight there vras a S3 million provramrne of vrhich fifty per cent, I think it vras, was asken for in the form of a gr2nt and the rest as a lease to be paid through a guaranteed situation over a period of years.

The situation,as I understand it noh·~is tl-tat nRJ\F have turned do,~n this particular application, for '"hat reaR on I .i ust cannot understand because they have approved a very similar tyne application for. the flame company in Halifax for training of people there for flying and so on and all the various aspects of it - HR. ~lEARY: True. I was coming to that.

T'RFMIER }!ClOTIP.S: - while here in r;ander in this Province they h~>.d turned dmom an application which in ~ffect leails for technicians to be developed for the servicinl! of iet aircrafts, not iust for EPA but for. similar type aircrafts that coulcl he attract<>d from t'ther airlines. I found it one of the most unfortunate and one of t 11e most disappointing DRKF decision in a long while. O"viously. t'ds rovernment has the rep,ional airlines involverl.

Fe 1~1.11 do a 11 WP can to co-operate. 'lm•, the detail of that ''ill be announced at the anpropriate time. ~ut T must say and reinforce,Sir, that the DRFE decision in thC~t particular one_, t·"ey talk ahout industrial incentive, regional <'fevelonment of sld lls anc1 tl-tis prohahly stood out more as a logical programme than ;ust about anv other we have applied for for a great many years. ~m . Sl'FA KF'P. : '!R. NrARY: The hon. member for LaPoile. l'r.

Spea~·.er, a supplementary to that question, Sir. lvould the Premier tf'll the House if his government has registered an official protest apainst this dPcision to DREE and to the Government of Canada? PRF'·ru::R vonnrs: nfficial, r suppose you could say by verbal communication, written communication and just ahout every type of other communication - the ans1-1er is yes. lffi. SPF.AKFR: A final supplementary. The hon. member for LaPoile. HR. 1-lF.ARY : A sunple~entarv, Sir. I presume the wires are humin~ between here and 0ttaT.~a. r,Tould the Premier indicate if the Government of Canada is 2448

~la r ch 5, 1976 . NR. NF.ARY: Taoe 938 RH - 3 adamant and refuses to co-operate in this matter, will the Pyovince then make this $3 million or \~hatever the amount is, $3 . 5 million available to EPA so that they c~n carey out their proposed expansion i n Gander? PRE!1IER HOORFS: ~fr. Sp.eake~, the p,;-oposen expansion, as J understand it, is about fifty per cent complete. t.tr.

Speaker, we were involved with the triangle on this one a year ago now and certaiolv hopefully ~re vill he ahle to work out some position accept able to J!.PA and hopefully with the Federal Government involved in it as well as our own. )>(R. S l'fJII:r.R : The hon . m·el'1her for Burgeo- ~ay n ' F.spoi r . '1lL R. SlliW)N~: '!r . ~peai<P.l:, T have a que-st ion fo-r the l>remier. 1t re..lates a!!ain to the C:ome llv <:hance situation.

It vie'~ of the rlebate Hhich we are tolrl will he fo r thcominn and in the interest of helpjng u11 on this si.rle of the Hou.q·e part.icu.larl v to 11e informed for the dehate. , T a"' t~ontiering if the Premier would unrlertake to tarle any corresoondence l~hich the !!evernment might have in its possession relating t o the sh.ut-down or the finAncial rlHficulties at Corne By Chance? 2449

:March 5, 1976 Tape 939 IB-1 PREMIER NOOP-ES : I think the answer, Nr. Speaker, has to be no. But certainly also having said that,any knowledge we have we will only be too glad to sit down and ciscuss it. But when you talk about the correspondence involving Come By Chance there is, Sir, with all due respect,! think that would be impossible and also inappropriate. r.m. SP!!AKEV: The hon. member for Burgee-Bay D 'Espoir. rTTL SIIJ- 10NS: Hr. Speaker, a supplementary. I do not think the Pre~1ier understood my question. At least it \vould appear he did not from the answer.

All I am asking is that he consider or undertake to table any correspondence, obviously not the kind of thing that is confidential and could not be tabled, but the correspondence that could be brought before this llouse so that the members can be more informed on the subject, correspondence that is otherwise not confidenti<~l so that we can get a clearer picture of the financial difficulties \vhich precipHated the shut-down of the Come By Chance refinery. It is always nnderstood 1 the rider, Hr.

Speaker, is always that anything that confidence requires be not tabled, well that is another matter, and I am sure he and I both understand that. PP-EI1IEF~ ~'OOPllS: ~'r. Speaker, just so I can clarify,the hon. member thought I <'lid not understand his question. I saicl that we would be totally prepared to sit clown and discuss it and look at correspondence. There are lawsuits pending. There are all kinds of things pending. So, in other words, to anS\ver this question very simply so the member can understand, Hr. Speaker, the answer is no. FR. SPEA.KEr: The hon. member for Port au Port. FP.

Sil'1''ClNS: The·olcl cover-up. HI' .. HODDEll: II question to the Pinister of Social Services: In light of the statement by the !1inister of }:ines, Energy and Resources the day before yesterday in Stephenville that payments to social assistance recipients 1muld be increased this year, and in light of the government's previous promise that pa)Tffients would be increased this January, ~ill the increases be made retroactive to January 1st of this year? 24 5:0·

!·'arch 5, 1976 Tape 939 IB-2 ~~- SPEAKER: The han. l'inister of Social Services. Jm.. rlRETT: Vr. Speaker, I think the han. member 'dll get the answer to that question '"hen the budget comes dmm later on this month . ~'R. SPEAKEr: The han. member for Fogo. CAPT. E. HINSOP: Hr. Speaker, may I - MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Fogo and then the han. member for LaPoile. CAPT. E. \/IllSOr.: l'ay I direct a question to the han. ~'inister of Finance'? ran the minister infonr. the House vlhat if any effect the closing dmm of Come By Chance oil refinery will have on the borrowing ability of this Province, if any? ~'R.

SPE~JU:::>.: The han. Yinister of Finance. !T. DOODY: During our most recent issue in the cniterl States, a $50 million issue, the Corne By Chance situation, as it then was, was discussed thoroughly with the fiscal agents and with the people involved clown there. Subsequent to that '~e have sent them an uy.datinr. and have kept them up to date to the present time on the situation. The most recent prospectus is here and it is available for anybody who is interested in looking at it. llP.. ROBERTS: 1,/ill the minister table that? }fP .• DOODY: Yes, certainly. I will table it now. rr.

SY.ALLHOOJJ: Could the minister table more than one copy? MR. DOODY: Table two copies. l'R. S!'ALLh'OOD: I already have a copy . AN !ION. llE!1lEP: Is two alright, two? Anybody else? AN HON. MEHBER: Could I have a copy? HP.. DOOJJY : I have two. }~ybe your leader might loan you his after he is finished or IJlaybe you could get it duplicated. I do not have any others with me. HF.. S~•ALLWOOD: I have no leader. :t-::R. DOODY: And never have had, and never have had, and probably never will have. 2451 .

!'arch :>, l <J 76 Tape 939 jtr. . SI·'ALLW'OD: T Pill not supposecl to have one . ~.....Q!?l:_ That is right . That is right. With God •rslkin{t a respectful four spaces behind you. Ill-3 The ans1~er in a nutshell is that the people in the finnncial community in the 11 .5 . and other places have indica ted to us that they see no caterial difference in the Province ' s credit rati ng, Our exposure of forty-some million dollars is not sufficie .ntly large to endanee r our credit rating.

This ),s the reply on the fee lint tha t 1~e fOt from the investment community . lle have had no a<!vcr.se affects . /'s I say tha ·t $50 million issue was sold "'bile the Come By Chance uiscussions were ongoing , and they ~ere aware of them in the financial coii!ITunity . They have been subsequ ent ly advised of current developments and we have had no adver se reaction . liP . SPEr\Kl::!': Now I will ask the hon. ~entleman first if this js a supplementa r y to h;~ last. I will allow a supple~entarv,and then the hon. gentle man from LaPoile . CAPT.

E. 1 /INSOP: tlould the J•inister of l'inance sl!y what Newfoundland ' s ratinr, is now on the market? t'R. OOODY: There rating is the same as it was last year . The B"Al is •Jhat it is re ferred to. There has been a recent stully done by the racing agency and that was thier conclu sj on , t hat the t'ilting should not be changed . l'JL SPEAK.Im: The hen. member fo r LnPoile. 2452·

March 5, 1976 Tape no. 940 Page 1 - mw MR. NEARY: Now that the refinery has shut down would the Premier tell the House if it is the intention of his government to hold a public meeting or a series of public meetings in the Come By Chance area to explain the whole suggestion to all the people who were affected by the shut-down? If so, would the Premier tell the House the dates of these meetings? And also, when the debate takes place here in the House, will Mr. Shaheen and his group be invited to come in on the floor of the House to give their side of the story? MR. MURPHY : Are we going to eo through that again?

MR. MOORES: Mr.

Speaker, the first half of the question - yesterday, when we met with the representatives of the communities and the union executive, it was decided that on an ongoing basis every two weeks in the beginning,and possibly after that once a month, that represenatives of the union and communities and government would sit down - this is other than the task force - but to sit down and keep a total - well a liaison in committee - to keep them totally updated on exactly what is happening as far as new prospects are concerned, and as far as the present difficulties are concerned so that they in turn, reporting to their town councils, reporting to the union membership, could relay to the very many peoplP.s in the area as to exactly what the situation is and how it is developing over a period of time.

I think this is probably more effective and more efficieP_t and certainly better in the world of communication than just having public meetings for the sake of having them. So that is the answer to the first part of the question. The second part of the question is that it has not been something we have considered as yet. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Carbonear. MR.li. NOORES Mr. Speaker, a question to the bon. Minister of Health. Is it still !:he government's intention to open the Carbonear General Hospital on April 1 of this year? 2453

!larch 5, 1976 Tape no. 940 Page ! - mw !~R. SPEA.I:'XR: The !ton. l1inister of Health . l1R. COLLINS : Hr. Speaker, it is very doubtful that that hospital will be opening on April 1. For one reason, it is not ready to be opened,but just as soon as we are in a position to say when we will make any announcement. l1R. SPEAKER: There is time for actually one question and one ans•~er. I recognize the hon. Leader of the Opposition. HR. flOBERTS: Hr. Speaker, a question to the Premier.

In view of the fact that the price of gasoline in this Province is the highest in all of Canada,and in view of the fact that at least three provinces at the conference in Ottawa have taken the position that there should not be an increase in the price of oil in Canada - those provinces being On::ario, Hanitoba and Nova Scotia- could the Premier tell the House why his colleague, the Minister of Energy, has taken the position that the price of oil should go up by $1. OS a barrel, which I am told will mean at least a nickel a gallon on gasoline in this Province? ~ffi. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. HR. MOORES: Mr.

Speaker, first of all on the subject of the prices of petroleum products, I was surprised to find in Ontario the other day in getting gas at a station that it was $.93 a gallon where just a very few years ago it "''as considerably less than that. But our position is that at this particular time its - and some of the premise, tre qualification to the han. Leader of the Opposition's question were quite inaccurate - our position is that we should be increasing the price of oil at the well head as little as possible at this particular time because of the unusual problems that we have in our country.

But also, Sir, we are also taking the position in that we have to face reality in Canada,as have the federal government in this particular regard as have a great many other people and whilst energy generally, whether it is electrical rates or whether it is the price of oil and gas, I think 2454

!'!arch 5, 1976 Tape no . 940 Page Mr. Moores. to put our head in the sand is an ostrich attitude and say it should not go up bec ause we are not used to it as opposed to 3- mw facing the reality of where we are in this world would be a terrific mistake. MlL SMALLWOOD: Would the Pre.,ier venture to guess as to when it will be $2 . 00 a gallon?

HR. }IOORES: No , I would not like to venture ::1 gueS£ on it, Sir, but the one thing I think it would be safe to say, as I think the hon . gentleman and other people in this House would agree, is that there is no question that it is going to eventually get there. 0 () 0 HR. NEARY: ~lr. Speaker, I move that the regular order of business of this hen. House be suspended to debate matters of urgent public importance to the people of this Province; namely, (1) the uncertain situation at the Stephenville Linerboard Mill; (2) the severe restdctions on the redfish c~:~tch in t he Gulf of St.

La~·rcn<'e, ~·hich will affect fish pl ant and fishermen on the south coast of Newfoundland; (3) the extremely low volume of construction work contemplated for the year ahead in this Province. 1-m. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order , please! I must point out to 2455

~'arch 5, 1Q76 Tape No. 941 }m. SPEAKER: the hon . gentleman that under the procedure of asking leave for the suspension of regular business to introduce a matter of urgency, only one specific matter may in fact be debated and leave may be asked only to debate one specific matter, rather than a se.ries. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr.

Speaker, my specific matter will be Sir, the rapidly deteriorating condition of the Trans-Canada Highway, especially Hest of Corner Brook and the impact that this may have on the tourist industry in this Province if we do not take immediate steps to restrict the load limits of the tractor trai1ers and the heavy equipment travelling over this highway. 1'R.

SPEAKEJ?: The Chair must nm~ decide not whether the hon. gentleman.of course.has leave or not but whether asking leave for debate on this specific matter is in fact in order. ~ 1 atters to be taken into consideration are the urgenc y of the topic which no one need necessarily dispute, the urgency of debate or the urgency of debate at this particular moment and also of course,the opportunity for debate.

In looking at the 0rder Paper I see that the Address in P.eply is there and actually very little legislation, and ~,rhile I would have no way of knowing what order of business is to be call ed, I could make a reasonable surmise that the Address in Reply will he called if not today in the very near future, therefore in my opinion there will be ample opportunity to debate this specific subject. VIZ . SPEAKF.ll : Opposition. ~tR. ROBERTS: ORDERS OF THE DAY: Order 1. Address in Reply. The hon. Leader of the Nr.

Speaker, this is the first opportunity ~~e have had in this session to debate the Address in Reply,or the Throne Speech debate as we normally refer to it, because of course when the House met in November the Throne Speech was given on the first day that we met and on the second day that we met we went into the Budget Speech or the- yes,it was a Budget Speech and I believe that 2455.

r1arch 5' 1976 Tape No. 941 N~! - 2 1'1R. ROBERTS: still has not been, or that debate has not been concluded although it has large~y spun out its course,and that debate was adjourned and it was followed in turn by the debate on the Churchill Falls situation, the government's proposals with respect to Churchill Falls and their handling of their assets, their interests in the Churchill Falls and in Labrador power since they acquired those assets and those interests about two years ago. And that took us up to a day or two or three before Christmas Eve and of course the House has stood adjourned since then. Well, Mr.

Speaker, I think it is high time that we have the Throne Speech debate. I am unable to understand any valid reason why the government chose to_adjourn the House on the 22nd. of December and keep it adjourned until\ the 4th. day of ~~arch. Nobody begrudp,es a Christmas holdiay to the government or to any of us. It would have been reasonable to adjourn the House from the 22nd. of December until the 3rd. or 4th. or 5th. or even the lOth. day of January.

But it v.•as completely unreasonable to keep the House adjourned for all of the month of January and all of the month of February and then to have it come back as it has, as we did on the 4th. day of Harch. Hr. Speaker, I know the reasons why. I think every member of the House knows the reasons why. I think that all of the people of Newfoundland and Labrador know the reasons why the government decided not to meet the House. There are two sets of reasons in my opinion, Sir, The first is that the government are scared of the House.

They are most anxious to be anywhere but in the House of Assembly where they cannot excape answering the comments and criticisms that are put to them by hon. gentlemen on all sides of the House, and particularly comments and criticisms that are put to them by hon. gentlemen on all sides of the House, and particularly those of us who sit here to Your Honour's right. And the secondary reason, very much secondary,was that the government '"ished to go off on their jaunt to Europe, a hol:!_day jaunt or not we will find out in due course,but their jaunt to Europe and 2457

~·arch 5, 1 rt7~ Tape ~o. 941 N'l - 3 ~~. ~SP.PTS: then of course we had the edifying display of every minister but one or perhaps two I believe taking off to Ottawa to the convention to elect the PC leader and that is not the offence . It was quite right and prop er for members of that party to take

part in the election of a new national leader of their party, 2 man who will not be Prime ~tinister of C~nada, but a mnn who at least is a contender for that honour. But what I object to, Sir, and what the people of this Province objec t to of course is that it took the entir e government about an entire 1-1eek t<> rlo it, a needless e7penditure of time and presumably a needles expenditure of money.

In due course we will have the opportunjty to find out j ust when each minister went to Ottawa, what he did in Ottami, how much he charged the people of the Province for the ple2sure of his being in Ottawa . •lost of them I suspect will claim they were in Otta~1a on public busines s . !·le all know they were there primarily and mainly, and some almost totally on private business , b usiness in conn.ection with the Tory Party, legitimate business but business in respect of which no charges should have been made against the government, the public account of this Province . They will all have 2458

~arch 5, 197~, Tape 942, Page l -- apb ~ffi.. ROBERTS: the opportunity to table their exoenditures over that period and we will see hm~ many have the nerve and the gall to charge off their trip to Ottawa against the public of this Province, the public who are paying a 10 per cent sales tax, the public who are going to do without new hospitals and so forth because we are in an era of austerity. Mr. Speaker, it is really shameful that the house did not meet 7 because there has never been a time in my knowledge - now my knowledge is not as extensive as other hon. gentlemen, The gentleman from Twillingate (Mr.

Smallwood) can speak with first-hand knowledge of events thirty or forty or fifty or sixty years ago because he has been interested in public life in this Province for at least that period of time. His recollection is superb. He can remember what went on and what happened and what was in people's minds and what was being discussed. But, Sir, in my years in public life,and I venture to say with the significant exception of the gentleman from Twillingate (Mr.

Smallwood) my years are as extensive as anybody who sits in this house today, never, Sir, has there been a time when the public mood of this Province has been as it is today. I see the public mood of the people of this Province, Mr. Speaker, as being one of deep and dismal doubt, almost one of despair. Uncertainty, Sir,and self­ doubt stalk this land today. We do not even have to look any further than today's edition of The Evening Telegram which has on page 4, a story the headline of which is: "Economic Outlook Dismal Says Board Of Trade Head." There is a picture there of Mr.

Creighton the President of the Board of Trade. I will just read the first two or three paragraphs: "The President of the St. John's Board of Trade last night painted a dismal outlook for the economic prospects of the St. John's area for the next year. Andrew G. Creighton, speaking to a meeting of the Data Processing Management Association at the Battery Motel cited the effects that the closing of the Come By Chance oil refinery will have on the city as well as the restrictions placed on business under the federal government's anti-inflation programmes," This is a quotation, Sir, quoting Mr. Creighton. 2459.

March 5, 1976, Tape 942, Page 2 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: 1"The immediate economic prospects in the next year or so for the city area seem dim," he said, noting that the unemployment rate is at an all-time high .'.'' Mr. Speaker, all over this Province people are expressing a similar view. Any hon. gentleman who has been the least bit around this Province, any hon. gentleman who has opened his ears and his eyes to what people in this Province are saying and what they are thinking knows that that is a very, very true statement. It is more than that though, Sir. It is more than .iust a slough of despondency. Mr.

Speaker, what troubles me very deeply is that in addition to that great feeling of deep and dismal doubt I am encountering, and I have talked to my colleagues in the Liberal caucus and we find that we are all encountering,for the first time, a feeling among many of our people, a belief among many of our people that they doubt their destiny. For the first time since Confederation, Sir, ordinary people in this Province are beginning to doubt whether we can do it.

Can we build anything in Newfoundland and Labrador or are we doomed and condemned to be a nation, a country, a Province that just cannot provide a decent way of living for our people? Many people, Sir, are losing their self-confidence, their belief in the future. Many peonle feel that we just cannot do it anymore. They hear statements made in this house and outside that we are going to have to go down in the world, that we are going to have to reduce our standard of living, that we are going to have to - I think the hon. gentleman from Kilbride, (Mr.

Wells) the government House Leader yesterday said we will no longer be able to drive large cars, and he put that fonmrd not as a wise thing,which I would suggest. We should do it for sensible reasons. But he put it forward, I think, as an instance of economic difficulty and almost amounting to economic depression. Mr. Speaker, I am deeply concerned about this and so are my colleagues. 2460 .. r

Narch 5, 1976 ~<!'. l'OBEPTS: Tape 943 If we were the government we would make this the major thrust, the IB-1 major effort of our administration in these months. We are not the government. But, Sir, we want to do what we can to remedy it, to help to remedy it. So, Hr. Speaker, we have decided now that the House at long last is open, a month or two months after it should have been opened, we have decided to pursue a some~vhat unusual course.

Normally, Sir, in the debate on the Address in Reply, the Throne Speech debate, the Opposition move a non-confidence motion at the end of the first speech by the lead-off speaker, whoever he may be. Usually that non-confidence motion comes after a lengthJ.y and rletailecl indictment of the sins of the administration or of the government. 1leavens knm.;s, }:r. Speaker, that we have lots of justification for doin~J; that this time. I could go through the unemployment figures being up, the sacl and sorrm.;ful litany. On every hand unemployment up. The fi17ures are absolutely staggering.

Even the decision by the Statistics Canada people, the Government of Canacl.a, to redo the unemployment figures which apparently,or ~vould lead one to believe that there is an apparent improvement in the unemployment picture, those fifCures of course when they are looked at ce11se to hold up or do not holcl up any more because of course ~"hen the retroactive calculations are done the trend holds on. Unemployment is up. It i.s continuing to rise. lie are not even keepinr np, l"r. Speaker, ~;e are not even keeping up with the growth in our labour force. He are falling further and further and further behind.

Let me take the figures for December which are the most recent ones that I have. In a labour force of 175,000 -and these have been restated, t'r. Speaker, on the basis of the ne,..- methodology adopted by Statistics Canada- in a labour force of 175,000 people we have 151,000 employed and 24,000 unemployed, an actual unemployment rate of 13.7 per cent. !·'ore significantly even than that, a participation rate of 47.9 per cent which means that out of a work force of -I am sorry 1 out of a population of 365,000 people, fifteen years of age and older, only 479 out of every 1,000 are participating 2461

~!arch 5, 1976 HR, ROBERTS: Tape 943 IB-2 in the labour force. That is significant because the participation rate,which is a division of the labour force as calculated by Statistics Canada into the population fifteen years and up, the potential work force, is 47.9. These are not my standards or my methodolOfY· This is the stanclard methodology, I \muld point out to the minister, 365, 00') people,I am told,over the a~e of fifteen or fifteen years and over. Although sixteen is the school Jeavinr, age, you know, that is the definitj on they take.

If -.•e go back \ve will find that that participation rate • which has always been lower than that of the rest of Canada, that the participation rate has been cropping over the year. It is a fairly seasonal one but,you know,it was 49.5 in November, 50.7 in October, 51.7 in September, 53.2 in August, 53.6 in July, 50.8 in June, and it goes back to 45.4 per cent in ~\arch. In other '"ords, people are droppinr. out of the labour force, a measure, I would submit, of their lack of faith in their ability to find a job because of the course the number of unemployed has gone up equally steadily throurhout - NR.

HURPliY : llut they are staying in school longer than they used to. !"!'. POBET'.TS: That may be part of it. Part of it might be, Hr. Speaker, married women who would like to work and would work if they felt - and would consider themselves in the labour force 1but feel their is no poing in it. Some of them might be married women who are in the process of having, you know, are pregnant and are in the process of having children and thus drop out for a year or t\vO. }!F .• t!UP.PRY: I have five in my department now. MR. ROBERTS: The hon. p.;entleman has five children or five - A."' RON. l"'EMBEP.: Ready to go. NR .

ROBERTS: Five ready to go. I do not kno~' if that is a matter of ministerfal responsibility or not, Hr. Speaker. HR. l'URPliY : It is not my achievement. 2462

•-' 'March 5, 1976 Tape 944 PK - 1 Y". J'(1BE1l1S : I accept the bon. r:entleman 's assurance 1,•i thout any C]11<1li fi Cl'lti on. ~'r. Speaker, I could talk about unempl oyrnent but I do not want to p,o on at any length about that. I couln talk about the broken promises, and that is good for three or four days of debate from any individual in this House., .iust listing them. You knm.1, what about the first priorities in health'?

The people in Happy Valley are expecting a first priority in health, as they have been told that their hospital - the gentleman from Kilbride ('fr. \.Jells) when he was ~inister of Health told them their hospital 1vould he a first priority. So were the people in Clarenville with their new hoRpital. I •'aS talking today 1~ith a friend of mine from the town of Burin who said, l,,ell we are going to get our hospital. And I said, lvhy? h'hat makes you say that? They are all called off. No, he said, sure the platform is still up doW11 there.

They came do•~ just before I the election and put up the platform and turned the sod for it. Then there is the Grand Falls extension which was all gung-ho before the election is now been put on a very lonp, finger. The project to put a hospital in the Channel-Port aux Basques area to replace the hospital there i.s gone.

You knmv, one could go on and on listing endlessly the rrol,en promises. ln Ferryland district one will hear a great deal ahout - we could talk ahout the fine people of Brigus ~outh and Admiral's Cove, I believe I have the communities correct, who were told before the election by the previous member, Mr. Doyle,that they would have their roads :--aven this ~'ear, and they ~lent ahead, and lo and behold: the equipment l1'ent in magically, and things stared to happen. And Jo and behold! two or three days after the election the equipment l•'as pulled out. AN HClN. MEMBER: Doyle was pulled out too. MR.

ROBERTS: Well I have nothing to do ••ith Mr. Doyle being pulled in or out or the equipment, Mr. Speaker. MR. POHER: Could the hon. gentleman permit a question? ~. RORF.RTS: No,I am sorry. At the end of what I have to say if the han. gentleman, the present member for Ferryland (Mr. Power) would like to ask

Harch 5, 1'176 PK- 2 Mr. Robe rts : a question I shall be delighted to have him ask it, and equally delighted to try to answer it. But I cite that as an outstanding example of a broken promise, a hroken co11ll!litment. Mr. S't'eaker, I do not want to talk about that. I could r;o on for days, and '~e will have loads of opportunity this year and throughout this session to list some of those promises, the promises that have not been kept. I could ~" on and talk a little bit more about the Churchill Falls project ,,rhicll contim:es to fall into more and more difficulty.

The administration might as ~~ell reali:>:e, too, the w<~y the people of Net,rfoundland are coming to think about that project. I do not kno" tvhether Your Honour harl the opportunity to see the CBC Nelvs last night, you know,the start of it, the start of the Here and Now portion, the local n""''S, and they had on it a film clip of an interview "ith a gentleman from the Come By Chance area, my colleague from Terra Nova (Mr. Ln,;h) "'as there looking handsome, alert, Sl'\art, and very interested.

But this gentleman at some length ~rent on about "'hat he felt Y-'as the - and I hel:!eve ri~htly so-to he the very poor \vay in lvhich the poveri1J!Ient have handled the Come By Chance thin?. And then he said, you know, he said I am ~>,oing to go on -all this is becuase He are payinr, for the Lower Churchill, I am going to go on t~·e rest c>f my ] i.fe paying for the Lower Churchill, why do they not do something for Come By Chance? Now the merits of his v:!eH are one thing. l!r. Speaker, that vie" is widely held. TI1e view is widely held throughout t\d s Pcovince today.

There is obviously a CP.rtain amount of truth in it. Indeed at times I feel there is a great amount of truth in it. But I do not propose to go on on that tack at this time. I could. ThPre is enougll in that to .1ustify a motion of non-confidence. Indeed there is enough in that to justify the defeat of a government in the Rouse or i.n the country. Mr. Speaker, I do not think either of that would be the right course at this Urne. I do not feel that it is appropriate. Hy colleagues do not feel it is appropriate for us to bring in an amendment to the 2464 ·

~!arch 5, 1976 Tape 944 PK - 3 Hr. Roberts: Throne ~J'Ieech which condemns the government. Although, you know, it is temptin~ , There are so many reasons to say so, so many grounds, so many arRuments can be brought forth, arguments that would convince any reasonable person - it might not convince the government (lr their supporters - but any reasonable person would be convinced, and would say that this crowd of, this hon . crowd must Ro . A. new group> no matter t~ho it be, will come. That is another story. ~ut this r.roup of men must go. They have failed.

They have failed in their duty to administer the affai•·s of this Province. But that is not what I propo se, Sir . That is not the way I thin~ thi s dehate should go. Other hon . members may disa~ree. My ca~cus are in agreement with me bec ause we talked about ttis at length, and we have agreed on the !>OSition we are to take. Ot:her hon. gentlemen may feel that the debate should he a negative one. And, of course, as long as they are within the rules they have every opportunity and every ri~ht to say what they wish. But we feel, Sir, this debate at this time in this Province should take a very different course.

Accordingly 2465

~1arch 5, 1 'n~. ~- ROBFRTS: Tape 'l4.5 11'' - 1 I propose, Your Honour, to move an amendment nm~ to the Address in Reply. I have some copies of it l1ere for Your fl'onour and for the Leader of the other party, t!-J<? ~entleman from T~11illinpat0. (t1r. Smalh10od) and for the clerk and I have some which perhaps we can arranj!;e to !J:et up to the press. If it i.s in order I wiJ J read it and then Your !lonour can decided ••hetlJer it is in order or not, hut let me read it. There is one there of course for the hon. gentleman, the House Leader.

He will understand why I did not give it to him in advance anymore than he does not gi.ve us any notice in advance of his amendmePts. But perhaps coPld the clerk do the ltindness to take one to the House Leader on the other side! But in any event, the amendment which I ~~oul.d propose, l'r.

Speaker, seconded by my friend and coll.eap;ue from Port au Pnrt,is to a111end the motion - the motion hefore the Chair,as Your Honour J·noPs. is t!-Jat the followinP: Andress in TlepJv 1->e presented and tJ-,en the warns of tl•e motion- "To amenn tl,f" motion hy strikinp. out all the ••orcls after 'that• and to r<'p] ace them with the follm1ing : This House reaffi r.ms its faith in th~ future nf '!e~!founcll.ancl ;mc1 T.a">rador and calJ s upon the ministry to present to the }louse ann to the peopJ e of 'lelvfoundland ;mel T"ahrador " c1ct~U e~ ;Jnd a s'Jeci fie outline of their r:oal s for tl1e rleVfdopment of tllis Province and the means hv ~-rhich they plan to achleve them." :low, Ynur Honnur, I put that forth.

I believe it to he put in order. I put it forth as an amendment to the motion. T would he p.rateful if Your Honour ~<•ould rule upon it. T do not knm> Hhether Your l'onour 1vishes any argument or anything hut 1: helic>ve it to he in order and reA.] l.v we cannot go muc'l further until Your Honour says whether it is in orner or not. So T must no•• yield to Your Tlnnour. ~m. . SP'fi'.Kr.P. (Dr. ColJ ins) : It was moved hy the hon. Leacler of t'1e Op,osition and duly seconrled that the amendment as state•\ ~- v him be now clel,ater1. T l•!C'Hld rule that the amendment is in order. 'fll .

R()TI!'~TS: Tl-tanlc you, Your Honour. So ~'e are no~r dehatlnp.: the amendment. noes the 11o1J,;e T eader wis!1 to ma1~e a comment'? ~m.. tmu.s: ~m. P.ORF.TlTS: His Honour has rulecl. Hell, J aj!;ree. Rut I mean I believe it to be in order too, certainly,or I would not have movecl it. Hr. Speaker, let me state at the outset 2466

Harcb 5, H76. Tape 945 RH - ~ HR. ROB'I':RTS: '"'here YTe stand as a party, as a group, as a body on this amendment. lve shall vote for it. That is why we moverl it. He believe it is the right anrl the -proper way in which this House of Assemhly should take its stand. I shall he somewhat taken aback if any bon. gentleman chases to vote against it because the motion is a very positive one and a verv reasonable one. I do not see hm• anybody in this Province - maybe there are people who do not '·7ish to reaffirm their faith in the future.

I think it is necessary for us to state it. ~ormally it would not neerl to be stated. Normally it would be a stunning insight into the obvious. But in view of the public mood and the public feeling and the way in which people in every part of this Province feel, it is appropriate that we stand and be counted. l•le should not need a lot of argument on it. \,Te should not need a lot of discussion on it. llut we should certainly make our voices heard. The second part of the motion is, I lvould submit, equally substantive.

I It gives the government the opportunity to do that which the Premier indicated in response to a question earlier this day, a question I believe put by the gentleman from Twillingate, it gives the govem~ent and all of their supporters, the members of the government and all of their supporters the opportunity to bring before this House what they see as our goals anrl how they plan to move so that we can achieve those peals. He believe in our future, Sir. Every man and woman on this side of the !louse believes in the future of this Province.

Fe may have our differences about some of the tactics or even smre of the strategies to be employed to achieve that future. But, Sir, it is not enough just to say that. Hhat really counts is,where are we p.oing ln this Province'? Can .ve build in this Province 2467

'·'arch 5, J.r17f Tape No. 946 N!A - 1 t~.. ROBERTS: an economy and a society that provides a meaningful and a worthwhile job for every person who wishes to have one. ~ust we go on tolerating unemployment rates of 10 per cent, 15 per cent, much higher than they have been. They averaged 8 per cent in 1970. They averaged 9 per cent in 1971. These are these new calculations now Statistics Canada have done. They averaged about 8 per cent in 1972. Now. they have come up.

In 1973 they averaged about 10 per cent and about 12 per cent in 1974 and in 1975 the lowest unemployment rate we had during the entire year was in the month of September, month of blessed memory1when all the election projects were at full fever pitch, when they were down in Brigus South getting a road ready for pavement; when they were hard at work putting up the platform dmvn in ••arystm vn, at Salt Pond near 1-"arystown for the hospital; when they Here hard at work getting ready for the Grand Falls Hospital.

Even in that month of blessed memory, Sir, the unemployment rate toras 12.3 per cent, higher than it had reached at any point in 1970 or 1971 or 1972 or, and with one exception in 1973. The lowest unemployment rate 1ve had in all of 1975 was higher than the highest we had at any point in 1971 or 1972 or 1973 or at any point in 1973 with the exception with the month of January, the depths of the winter. r•ust we tolerate that, Sir? Hust we tolerate a society where