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November 6, 2002

37th Parliament, 3rd Session

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Hansard Transcripts

vol. A

Hansard Transcripts

vol. B

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

Hansard Transcripts 2002-Nov-06 (PDF)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ONTARIO

ASSEMBLÉE LÉGISLATIVE DE L'ONTARIO

Wednesday 6 November 2002 Mercredi 6 novembre 2002

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

HIGHWAY 69

TAKE OUR KIDS TO WORK DAY

HYDRO RATES

PANORAMA OF LIGHTS

BECK 3 GENERATING FACILITY

RAMADAN

HYDRO RATES

SCHOOL BOARDS

AGNES JACKS

VISITORS

REPORTS BY COMMITTEES

STANDING COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT AGENCIES

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

RETAIL SALES TAX RELIEF FOR AMATEUR YOUTH SPORTS ACT, 2002 /

LOI DE 2002 VISANT À ALLÉGER

LA TAXE DE VENTE AU DÉTAIL

EN MATIÈRE DE SPORT AMATEUR

POUR LA JEUNESSE

VISITORS

CREDIT UNIONS

ORAL QUESTIONS

HYDRO RATES

HYDRO DEREGULATION

RACIAL PROFILING

MUNICIPALITIES

ONTARIO POWER GENERATION

LONG-TERM CARE

DÉRÉGLEMENTATION

DE L'ÉLECTRICITÉ /

HYDRO RATES

HAZARDOUS WASTE

ONTARIO ECONOMY

DEFERRAL OF OMB APPEALS

ROAD SAFETY

HYDRO RATES

DEFERRAL OF OMB APPEALS

BIOSOLID MANAGEMENT

VISITOR

PETITIONS

HYDRO RATES

ADOPTION DISCLOSURE

ELECTORAL BOUNDARIES

HIGHWAY 69

EDUCATION FUNDING

HYDRO RATES

EDUCATION FUNDING

HYDRO RATES

COMPETITIVE ELECTRICITY MARKET

ADOPTION DISCLOSURE

ORDERS OF THE DAY

TIME ALLOCATION

Wednesday 6 November 2002 Mercredi 6 novembre 2002

The House met at 1330.

Prayers.

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

HIGHWAY 69

Mr Rick Bartolucci (Sudbury): Yet another accident along Highway 69 between Sudbury and Parry Sound, this time around Britt, involving four cars

and with 10 people involved, six taken to hospital in Sudbury and one in Sick Children's Hospital in Toronto. When will this government understand that that highway between Sudbury and Parry Sound

doesn't need signs, it needs multi-laning? When will this government commit itself to improving that highway between Sudbury and Parry Sound? The people of northeastern Ontario, whether it be from

North Bay, Sudbury, Timmins or Sault Ste Marie, have had enough. They want that highway four-laned. They want it four-laned from Sudbury.

Today we find out that the government has been sitting on two feasibility studies taking in the area from Sudbury to the French River that indicate that this

highway must be four-laned. Let me quote you the 1974 study: "Ministry studies indicate that the existing Highway 69 route in the study area does not have sufficient capacity to serve

transportation demands over the next 20 years." That was in 1974, 30 years ago. "Such growth can be expected to place greater demands on this route and ministry studies indicate that an arterial

highway of the divided type" is necessary.

Your own government staff have told you that the four-laning of Highway 69 from Sudbury to Parry Sound should have taken place by now. Do it. Start it. Do it

today.

TAKE OUR KIDS TO WORK DAY

Mr Rob Sampson (Mississauga Centre): I am pleased to rise today to offer support for the many parents, children, teachers and employers who are

participating today in the Take Your Kids to Work Day. I'm actually honoured today to be standing in this House because my son is in the members' gallery over here. Nick is sitting here today.

Applause.

Mr Sampson: I should say to Nick that that's a far better reception than I ever get in this House from the opposition. But I'm glad he's here

today to participate with me in the job shadowing program that is being run by his school at Homelands. That school has recognized the fact that job shadowing is a first-hand opportunity to gather

information on the various occupations that interest students, and there are many -- including politics, believe it or not -- around the province of Ontario and this lovely country. By visiting the

workplace, students can visualize better what's involved in the occupation.

I've tried to make sure that my son was quite aware of what was involved in the business of being an MPP. I'm sure that the members today will be on their best

behaviour in demonstrating what happens in the Legislature, because, while he can't have a piece of paper here, he's taking mental notes, and he does have to do a report in school tomorrow. So he's

going to be watching the members opposite very closely.

I encourage all parents to participate in these programs, and I hope that all the students and parents have a safe visit to their workplace.

HYDRO RATES

Mrs Leona Dombrowsky (Hastings-Frontenac-Lennox and Addington): The hydro horror stories from my riding continue. There is a family in

Harrowsmith whose bill has tripled. A woman from Odessa fears that she will have to choose between buying health food to combat her diabetes and paying a hydro bill. She's on a fixed income, and

her bill has gone from $55 a month to $150 a month. A family in Cardiff doesn't know if they'll be able to buy their daughter's Christmas gifts this year. The ODSP allots $75 a month for hydro and

$75 a month for heat, and last month their hydro bill alone was over $200.

Premier, your bungling and incompetence on the hydro file is affecting all Ontarians. Your government was not elected with a mandate to dismantle hydro. In fact,

Mr Eves, you don't even have a mandate from the people of Ontario to be Premier -- only from the Tories in Ontario.

In my riding, my constituents are sending me a very clear message. They don't like the direction that your government has taken, and they don't like your

policies on hydro. It's hurting them and it's hurting their families. Premier, it's time to listen to the people of Ontario and clean up this hydro debacle so that families can go back to what they

have always enjoyed, and that is a healthy, happy and prosperous life in the province of Ontario.

PANORAMA OF LIGHTS

Mr Toby Barrett (Haldimand-Norfolk-Brant): Every year, people from across Ontario, across Canada, and visitors from other parts of the world

converge on Wellington Park in Simcoe to revel in the wonder of a glimmering December jewel at the heart of Norfolk county: the annual Christmas Panorama of Lights. It's been over 40 years now that

the townspeople of Simcoe have combined their efforts to put on this magnificent seasonal display.

The panorama is highlighted with over 75,000 twinkling lights that reflect on the mirrored surface of the Lynn River. This year's edition will feature the return

of one of the panorama's focal points to its former glory. The Panorama Fountain, generously donated by local artist Vic Gibbons close to a decade ago, will once again shower the park in a warm

glow as lights dance off the rising water. It took the panorama committee a couple of months of work and over $1,000 to get this fountain back in working order after it was frozen out of commission

over four years ago. Just last week, after a couple of false starts, their hard work paid off. At the flip of a switch, the fountain sprang back to life as water once again shot skyward.

I encourage my fellow MPPs in the House and the people of Ontario to head down to Ontario's south coast, the "golden garden," this part of our country, and revel

in the warm lights of Simcoe's Panorama of Lights and its revived fountain, which will spread seasonal spirit to young and old.

BECK 3 GENERATING FACILITY

Mr James J. Bradley (St Catharines): It has become increasingly apparent that Ontario is in urgent need of new generating capacity for

electrical power, particularly in view of a prolonged delay in returning the Pickering nuclear generating station to full capacity and the dramatic increase in the cost of electricity to Ontario

consumers.

Once again I am urging Premier Ernie Eves to instruct Ontario Power Generation, which his government owns and controls, to begin immediately the construction of

new generating capacity at the Beck generating facility in Niagara Falls. If the full project were to proceed, a third generating station to be known as Beck 3 would be constructed, along with the

appropriate system of tunnels, and would add 1,100 megawatts of new capacity.

As a beginning and as a minimum, the building of a new 10.5-kilometre tunnel should proceed, adding an additional 200 megawatts to Beck's existing capacity and

improving the flow of water through existing generators, thereby increasing the electricity generated at Beck by 15%. The proposed tunnel has received all planning approvals and has undergone an

environmental assessment. It has the enthusiastic endorsement of local representatives and the Ontario select committee on alternative fuel sources. This project would produce more electricity for

our province without any impact on air quality and would be an economic boost to the Niagara region. I call upon Premier Ernie Eves to act without further delay.

RAMADAN

Mr Bob Wood (London West): As many members of this House know, one billion Muslims throughout the world will be observing a month of fasting

during Ramadan, which starts November 6 this year. Muslims regard Ramadan as a spiritual tune-up. It is a time for inner reflection, devotion to God, and self-control. The third pillar or religious

obligation of Islam, fasting, has many benefits, the most important of which is that it teaches self-control. Ramadan is also a time of intensive worship, reading the Koran, giving charity,

purifying one's behaviour and doing good deeds. In fulfilling the teaching of their faith, they demonstrate to us a commitment to righteousness and compassion for the needy, qualities to which we

can all aspire.

Ramadan will end with the celebration of the feast of Eid ul-Fitr in about one month's time. At that time, Muslims will gather for prayers and then exchange

presents and share alms with the needy so that all members of the community may be able to celebrate together.

Ramadan has been observed for many centuries, and each year it reminds us of the importance of spiritual renewal for both Muslims and non-Muslims alike. I know I

speak on behalf of all members of this House in extending greetings to the Muslim community of Ontario and in wishing them Ramadan Kareem and Eid Mubarak. These greetings, which in Arabic mean,

"May you have a month of giving and a blessed feast," speak to the central meaning of Ramadan.

HYDRO RATES

Mr David Ramsay (Timiskaming-Cochrane): I want to bring forward today to the Ontario Legislature an example of two hydro bills from constituents

in the south end of my riding, around Nöelville and Markstay, that really show the idiocy of the Harris-Eves government's electricity policy and how it is giving great hardship to the

people.

First, a business. This is a small mom-and-pop meat and variety store in Nöelville and, typically, the bills would run at $1,200 a month before

deregulation. Then all of a sudden, they started popping up to over $2,000, $2,600, and the last month, when summer was over so we can't blame Mother Nature, $4,187 for this small meat market in

Nöelville. The proprietor there tells me that that's basically his gross profit margin per month and that now he'll be forced to make some very tough decisions about the number of people he's

going to be able to afford to keep on his payroll.

Another example in the same neighbourhood is a senior couple on a fixed income. Typically, because of their electrical heating, they've been paying about $180

per month. Now all of a sudden in their third-month reconciliation bill, they're hit with a whopping $690. These are people on a fixed income who have been just managing to pay their under-$200

bill, but now they've got triple that amount thrown at them from this system.

It's time the government fixed this mess that they started and start managing the electricity system in Ontario, and make sure the economy and Ontarians stop

suffering from this.

SCHOOL BOARDS

Ms Marilyn Churley (Toronto-Danforth): Ernie Eves, welcome to Mike Harris's chicken coop, which you are a part of, because all his chickens from

his failed Common Sense Revolution are coming home to roost. It started with Walkerton. Not only are you left with that mess, but now you have created a massive crisis in our hydro rates, and now,

increasing prices in education.

A legal challenge has been launched today by five Toronto school trustees, three parents and three unions, claiming that you have acted unlawfully by letting the

supervisor, Paul Christie, violate the act by suspending all of the trustees' functions and denying parents and trustees their basic right of free speech.

I met with parent councils in my riding last night, and what they said is happening in their schools is truly shocking. You've heard it before and I'm going to

repeat some of them now: teachers are not being replaced and classroom sizes have grown to large numbers; educational assistants have been cut and are not being replaced. The loss of lunchroom

supervisors, teachers, educational assistants and secretaries contributes significantly to the safety factor.

What I would say to this government today, so this lawsuit doesn't have to go ahead like the Toronto Hydro One lawsuit, which they lost, is that they should

immediately pull that supervisor out, wait until the review on their funding formula is done, leave the funding where it is and give the extra funding that they need now to put these people back in

the classrooms.

AGNES JACKS

Mr AL McDonald (Nipissing): I'd like to take this opportunity to tell the people of Ontario about a very special lady in my riding of Nipissing

who has done wonders for the sport of ringette. In fact, she and her husband were the founders of the popular game almost 40 years ago.

Last weekend, I attended the first annual Agnes Jacks invitational tournament, and it was a great success. Ringette may have been introduced in North Bay, but

now it has grown and is played throughout the world. It is Agnes's hope that ringette will be an Olympic sport some day.

Mrs Jacks was honoured for all her dedicated years in maintaining the sport of ringette. Unfortunately, her husband passed away several years ago, but Agnes is

diligent in keeping his dream alive. In fact, Agnes Jacks received the Order of Canada.

She is an example of integrity and devotion. For more than 30 years, she has promoted ringette as a medium for girls and women to benefit from physical activity

and personal growth derived from team sports.

As honorary president of the International Ringette Association, she continues the legacy of her late husband, who conceived the game, by sponsoring trophies and

scholarships for outstanding players, coaches and officials. She has become a goodwill ambassador, imparting the importance of good conduct and fair play to thousands of young athletes.

I would have to say that North Bay has a lot to be proud of, thanks to the creativity and tireless dedication that Mr and Mrs Sam Jacks put forth in introducing

the game of ringette to Ontario, Canada and the world.

VISITORS

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Just before we begin, we have with us today in the Speaker's gallery a delegation from the Russian Federation, led

by Vladimir Zoran, their Minister of Federation Affairs. They are in Toronto to participate in a workshop, Law and Federalism in the Russian Federation and Canada, which is being held at the

University of Toronto. Please join me in welcoming our honoured guests.

REPORTS BY COMMITTEES

STANDING COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT AGENCIES

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): I beg to inform the House that today the Clerk received the ninth report of the standing committee on government

agencies.

Pursuant to standing order 106(e), the report is deemed to be adopted by the House.

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

RETAIL SALES TAX RELIEF FOR AMATEUR YOUTH SPORTS ACT, 2002 /

LOI DE 2002 VISANT À ALLÉGER

LA TAXE DE VENTE AU DÉTAIL

EN MATIÈRE DE SPORT AMATEUR

POUR LA JEUNESSE

Mr Sampson moved first reading of the following bill:

Bill 207,

An Act to amend the Retail Sales Tax Act to provide an exemption from tax for amateur youth sports / Projet de loi 207, Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la

taxe de vente au détail pour prévoir une exemption de taxe en matière de sport amateur pour la jeunesse.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

The member for a short statement?

Mr Rob Sampson (Mississauga Centre): This bill, if it is approved by the House, would allow amateur youth sports teams or associations, or

amateur youth as individuals, to be exempt from paying all or a portion of the Ontario provincial sales tax on equipment or uniforms that they purchase. This bill would also apply, if it was

incorporated in the regulations, to school teams and teams that are involved in school activities.

This bill would also encourage organizations to participate in equipment swaps and would exempt the transaction of equipment swaps, which would help those who

can't get equipment, from attracting PST as well.

I encourage the House to support this very valuable initiative for amateur youth sports across Ontario.

Mr Dwight Duncan (Windsor-St Clair): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: Without speaking to the substance of the bill -- because we have not seen

it; we have read press accounts of it this morning -- the question to you is the appropriateness of the bill, given the rules with respect to non-treasury bench members bringing forward an item

that would impact on a budget.

Secondly, would it be more appropriate for the member to put this in the form of a resolution that could be brought to this House and debated as a resolution

incorporating many of the elements that may prove very worthy both to that side of the House and this side of the House?

The Speaker: The member is correct. We haven't had a chance to see it either, but as we do with all bills, we will check and look for the

appropriateness of it, and we'll advise the House if there are any problems. Then if there are, the member may take whatever option he wants. But we thank the member for bringing it to our

attention. We do look at all the bills.

VISITORS

Mr Tony Ruprecht (Davenport): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: Our page, Grant Gonzales, has some very important visitors here today: his uncle

and his aunt, Ron Turner and Jill Turner.

Mr Rosario Marchese (Trinity-Spadina): On a point of order, Speaker: This is take-your-nephew-to-work day. My nephew, Adriano Marchese, is here.

Just briefly, I want to put the Etobicoke politicians on notice: he's very interested in politics.

Hon Chris Hodgson (Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing): On a point of order, Speaker: I'd like to acknowledge and welcome a special guest

to the Legislature today. It's Take Our Kids to Work Day. It's a great program and our ministry has a number of students who are participating in that program. I'd like to mention that my son,

Clayton, is here as well in the gallery.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Welcome. I understand he's a good hockey player.

Hon Jim Flaherty (Minister of Enterprise, Opportunity and Innovation): On a point of order, Speaker: it is Take Our Kids to Work Day. As the

Minister of Enterprise, Opportunity and Innovation, I'm pleased to welcome the enterprising young people who are children, offspring, of some of the fine public servants at the Ministry of

Enterprise, Opportunity and Innovation, as well as Kaitlin Visser, who is the daughter of my constituency assistant.

Hon Elizabeth Witmer (Deputy Premier, Minister of Education): Not only is it Take Our Kids to Work Day, and we're thrilled to have all the

students here in grade 9, but today is also Ontario Principals Day at Queen's Park. I'd like to welcome the president of the council, Helen Spence, and the principals who are with us today.

The Speaker: We'll know where to send some of the members if they misbehave: down to the principal.

Mr Mike Colle (Eglinton-Lawrence): On a point of order, Speaker: We have some very special people who came all the way from Fenelon Falls in

beautiful Victoria county. They're here with us today. There's Councillor Faye McGee, Lyn Boldt and other members of the tax revolt in Victoria county who are here today to fight for fairness.

Mr Tony Martin (Sault Ste Marie): On a point of order, Speaker: The page from Sault Ste Marie is very proud of the work he does here. He keeps

bringing relatives in to have a look. Today we have Nancy Robertson, an aunt of the page, and Andrew Kadwell, a cousin of the page, from Oakville. I want to welcome them to the chamber.

Mr Norm Miller (Parry Sound-Muskoka): This is bring-your-son-to-work day today, and I'd like to introduce my son, Winston, who's here taking a

day off from grade 8 at Monck Public School. Winston, if you could, stand up. He's over on the other side. Winston, stand up.

CREDIT UNIONS

Mr John O'Toole (Durham): On a point of order, Speaker: It's my understanding that we have unanimous consent by all parties to spend five

minutes in recognition of Credit Union Day.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Is there unanimous consent? Agreed. The member for Durham may begin the rotation.

Mr O'Toole: It's my pleasure, on behalf of the Ernie Eves government, to rise in the House today to acknowledge the exceptional role that

credit unions play in our communities. I can't help but recognize the important work done by Jonathan Guss and Credit Union Central.

Unlike traditional banks and trust companies, credit unions are owned and operated by their members. In Ontario alone, there are over 700 locations that serve

over a million people and manage assets in excess of $14.5 billion.

In small and rural communities, much like in my riding of Durham, they don't have the large traditional banks. Credit unions are the only option available to

residents. I want to thank the credit unions of my riding: the Auto Workers Community Credit Union and Don Nicholls, and board members, including Dave Broadbent; the Oshawa Credit Union, with Lori

Gaudette; HEPCOE Credit Union, Iris Rapkiski; and the Goodyear credit union, Del Rudman.

Credit unions also make a tremendous contribution to Ontario's economy. They employ over 5,500 people and they work with small business owners to develop

viable business plans.

The Ontario government recognizes the new and important role credit unions and caisses populaires play in the financial service sector. Since 1995, our

government has taken a number of steps to help credit unions and caisses populaires to better serve their members and indeed their communities. These improvements include: we've approved a new

schedule of deposit insurance premium rates; we've removed the provincial retail sales tax on deposit insurance premiums; we've increased deposit insurance coverage from $60,000 to $100,000; we've

made deposit insurance fairer and more affordable by charging premiums only on the insured portion of deposits; we've eliminated capital tax for credit unions and caisses populaires; we've reduced

red tape to streamline the regulations for credit unions, therefore enhancing their ability to raise capital and deliver a broader range of financial services to their members.

These changes help credit unions become more competitive. The government also recognizes that more can and should be done. To this end we continue to work with

credit unions.

Credit unions believe in helping people and communities to improve themselves through co-operation, education and personal development. In my riding of Durham,

each Christmas our local credit union actively participates in making sure that the Salvation Army's Angel Tree toy drive is a success. They also host an annual barbecue, along with the Oshawa

branch, to raise funds for the Sunrise Youth Group. These are just a few examples of how credit unions contribute to my community and I'm sure to other communities as well. This contribution is not

exclusive to Durham. Credit unions, on the whole, give back to the community in countless different ways.

I look forward to meeting with credit union representatives later today with my fellow MPPs from all sides, and I respect the credit unions and the work they

do in Ontario. Please join me in thanking the credit unions of Durham and across the province for their dedication and hard work to people and communities.

Mr George Smitherman (Toronto Centre-Rosedale): I, too, am pleased to rise today and recognize the vital role that credit unions and caisses

populaires play in communities across Ontario. Since the latter half of the 1990s, Ontario's credit unions have sought to identify solutions to help them respond to the increasingly competitive

financial services marketplace. With over $16 billion in assets and 1.6 million members, this commitment has never been more important.

In addition to serving their members more effectively and efficiently, credit unions offer consistent customer service and believe in banking with a personal

touch. Credit unions also offer financial peace of mind because each credit union account is guaranteed up to $100,000 by the Deposit Insurance Corp of Ontario, which is even more than banks can

offer. In fact, no consumer has ever lost a dime of his or her hard-earned money deposited in a credit union.

When I say that credit unions serve Ontario well, I am not just talking about the full range of financial products and services; I am also talking about the

work they do in our communities. Credit unions can be found in Ontario's largest cities and in our smallest towns. In fact, in some small communities, places like Keene and Little Britain, the

banks have pulled out, leaving credit unions as the only financial institution.

At a time when talk of bank mergers is back on the agenda, I think it's important to encourage Ontario's ability to provide essential financial services in our

smaller communities. Currently the government has initiated the process of selling off another community-based banking service, the Province of Ontario Savings Office. Now, more than ever, we

should be ensuring that those agencies that are able and willing to provide banking service in small towns throughout Ontario are encouraged to do so. Credit unions are an important element of

Ontario's financial structure.

Because credit unions are locally owned financial co-operatives, they are well positioned to respond to community needs and are committed to improving the

quality of life in Ontario. In conjunction with local community groups, credit unions have invested in community projects including construction of sports and recreation facilities; sponsoring

various community activities and events; promoting public education programs to encourage a better understanding of financial matters; lending programs for low-income people; investments in

affordable housing; and business mentoring programs. Fully 90% of credit union deposits are reinvested back into the communities through mortgages and personal and business loans.

Credit unions also fill an important gap in providing access to capital for small businesses and farm operations that may not be able to qualify otherwise. All

of us know and hear too often about the challenges people have in gaining access to capital. Credit unions' commitment to small businesses has grown considerably over the past five years. Today an

incredible 45,000 small and medium-sized businesses and farm operations in Ontario are being assisted by a loan from their local credit union.

In addition, over 60 member credit unions participate in Credit Union Central of Ontario's syndicated lending program, which harnesses Central's lending

expertise and capital, allowing credit unions to help more underserviced customers. These loans also finance local business development, manufacturing, construction, hospitality and tourism. A

significant portion of the syndicated loan portfolio involves the agribusiness sector, a large portion of which is invested in northern Ontario.

On behalf of my leader, Dalton McGuinty, and the Ontario Liberal caucus, I look forward to working to strengthen the credit union system and to joining all of

you in the reception later on this afternoon.

Mr Tony Martin (Sault Ste Marie): We in this caucus, on this side of the House, are certainly proud to stand today in recognition of the very

vital and viable co-op movement blowing across this country that came out of the co-op movement in western Canada and our partnership in that in the 1960s with the CCF and organized labour to form

the New Democratic Party in this country and indeed in this province. Credit unions have become a very important international phenomenon.

I was in Ireland just recently, where I was told a story about a small community just north of the border, Newry, racked with violence for years. A small group

of people decided that there needed to be an economic future for them and for their children. They gathered around a kitchen table, as has happened so often across this country, and formed the

first credit union. They each threw the change that was in their pocket into the pot, and stood before churches week after week collecting money to build up a critical mass, so that they could then

begin to operate as a real credit union. The first loan they gave out was to a widow who needed to consolidate some debt. The second loan was to buy an old, abandoned factory and turn it into a

co-op business development organization that today has become the envy of northern Ireland -- just one example of the very creative, energetic and exciting activities of credit unions across the

world, not to speak of some of the credit unions in Ontario and in my own area.

I recently participated in the cutting of a ribbon for a brand new credit union at the Garden River First Nation, just outside of Sault Ste Marie, where they

see it as a vehicle to give them some foothold into the finances that they need to create an economy that will be beneficial for them over the years. In my own community of Sault Ste Marie we have

a number of very exciting and viable credit unions: Northern Credit Union, for example, has grown from a meeting in the kitchen of one of the original members of the credit union, a person by the

name of Len Strom, into an organization today that literally populates almost every small community in northern and eastern Ontario -- a credit union that, when it sees one of the big chartered

banks pull out of a small community because they have no more interest in offering services there, moves in and in some instances actually takes over the building of the vacated chartered bank to

offer financial services to that community so that the people and the community might be better served. That credit union today has grown to be a regional operation of over $440 million in assets,

with a network or 22 branches strategically located throughout northeastern Ontario, and provides excellence in service to over 40,000 members. The most recent merger of the Northern Credit Union,

with the Nickel Centre Credit Union, in July 2002 has also made services available to the communities of Coniston, Capreol, Garson and Sudbury, something that would be of interest to my colleague

from the Nickel Belt area --

Ms Shelley Martel (Nickel Belt): I'm a member.

Mr Martin: -- who is also a member. I would guess that probably all the members of our caucus are members of credit unions in their home

communities.

This merger also makes Northern Credit Union the seventh-largest credit union in Ontario. We have the St Mary's Credit Union, and of course the credit union

that I belong to and have been served by so ably over the years, the ASCU Community Credit Union. It started out as a small credit union to service the members working at Algoma Steel, driven by

the Steelworkers of America, now a very large entity in our community of Sault Ste Marie that supports the people in the community. Their strength and their future are based on community roots, and

member involvement, community participation and local knowledge are some of ASCU Community Credit Union's proud, competitive advantages. This credit union now has loans to members in the year ended

of some $157.6 million. That's a lot of money to be managed by this particular entity on behalf of our community. The ASCU Community Credit Union has been in business for more than 50 years in

Sault Ste Marie. The membership has grown from the original 20 charter members in 1948 to approximately 13,000 members in the year 2002.

You can be sure that your local credit union actively supports many different local projects as well as initiatives on the provincial and national levels. I

would encourage all of you here to take time, if you're not already a member, to call your local credit union to check out the services they have to offer and become a member.

ORAL QUESTIONS

HYDRO RATES

Mr Dalton McGuinty (Leader of the Opposition): My question is for the Premier. Yesterday we talked about Bluewater Power and their threats to

shut off power to those who can't pay the bills you have foisted on to Ontario consumers. You said, "I presume that the ... utility will act in a responsible fashion and the individual's power,

indeed, will not be cut off."

I want to tell you the story of Joanne. She's a single mom with an infant and a two-year-old. She's on maternity leave and is only getting $630 per month. Her

hydro bill is $400. She just recently scraped together $180 to start paying the bill, but Bluewater Power shut off her power yesterday. The heat in her building is electric. Joanne and her two

young children are living without heat today. It's anticipated that the wind chill factor tonight in Sarnia will be -6C. What are you going to be doing before nightfall to help Joanne and her two

young children?

Hon Ernie Eves (Premier, Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs): I would be more than pleased to take the details, and I will have my office

or the minister's office contact the utility this afternoon and see what we can do.

Mr McGuinty: Premier, am I going to have to bring these individual cases to you here on a daily basis during question period? There are going

to be hundreds, if not thousands, of Joannes, people just scraping by, people living hand to mouth, people who can barely afford to pay the old hydro bills, who cannot afford to pay the new hydro

bills. Do you want me to bring each and every one of those cases to your attention in this Legislature?

The problem here is that you created a royal mess. You're supposed to look before you leap. You leapt and then you looked. You acted irresponsibility, and

Ontarians out there on the front lines of the economy are paying a terrible price. I'm asking you, what specifically are you going to do to help Joanne and likely the thousands more who are no

longer able to pay their hydro bills in your Ontario?

Hon Mr Eves: I told the leader of the official opposition what I propose to do with respect to the specific case he's talking about.

The Ontario Energy Board and utilities work co-operatively together to make sure that nobody --

Mr Dwight Duncan (Windsor-St Clair): They work co-operatively, all right.

Hon Mr Eves: Quite frankly, that's what the Ontario Energy Board is there for. They're there to protect consumers, and they're there to make

sure that something exactly like this does not happen.

Mr McGuinty: It's your job to protect Ontario consumers and hydro ratepayers against usurious bills. That's your job. The Ontario Energy Board

has not been able to protect consumers from you, Premier. That's what is happening here.

I ask you again, what are those people, the Joannes of Ontario, now supposed to do? They are barely scraping by as it is. They can't afford to pay your new

hydro bills. Why don't you stand up here today and tell all Ontario utilities that they cannot shut off power to the Joannes of Ontario and that you will do whatever it takes to make sure that

nobody who finds themselves in this predicament is going to be without power, without heat, this winter?

Hon Mr Eves: I indicated in question period yesterday, and I'm indicating again today in question period, that I don't believe it's

appropriate for a utility to cut off power to people. I will be happy to take that up with them. This is a directive that the Ontario Energy Board issues to all utilities in the province of

Ontario; it tells them that they should be accepting partial payments and they should not be cutting people's power off because they don't have the ability to pay. We will reinforce that.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): New question.

Mr McGuinty: Premier, if you're not concerned about individual Ontario families, then maybe you'll have some concern for small business,

because small businesses are also feeling the effects of your incompetence and mismanagement of the hydro file.

Stamford Delicatessen in St Catharines has been open for 33 years and run by Berndt Triebe. His hydro bill has doubled, from $1,000 to $2,000 a month. He says

that he can't raise the prices at his deli because his clients are mostly seniors and, not surprisingly, they have their own skyrocketing hydro bills. Mr Triebe says he's going to have to close his

shop soon.

Small business, Premier, unless you have forgotten, helps drive our economy. Your incompetence and your complete mismanagement of hydro is not hurting Ontario

families alone; it is hurting our economy. Premier, will you admit that when it comes to the Ontario hydro file, yours has been an abysmal failure -- that is your experience -- and will you now

tell us specifically what you are going to do to help Mr Triebe and other owners of small businesses who are not able to cope with your usurious hydro bills?

Hon Mr Eves: The leader of the official opposition is the last person in the Legislature who should be standing up fighting for small business

when he's voted against every single tax reduction and break for small business that we have introduced -- all 199 of them.

Interjections.

The Speaker: The member for Hamilton East, come to order.

Premier?

Hon Mr Eves: As we --

Interjection.

The Speaker: We're not going to continue with this. I'm going to name the member for Hamilton East and ask him to leave the chamber. I'm not

going to keep getting up here. I'm going to have to pick people out. I'm afraid the member for Hamilton East is going to be asked to leave. Two seconds after I tell him to settle down, he's not

going to get up and do this. We're not going to continue to do this.

Mr Agostino was escorted from the chamber.

The Speaker: The problem is that there is allowed to be some heckling, but unfortunately everybody in the place does it now. It used to be a

few members would do it and we could get away with it. Now everybody just shouts at the other side. We'll just start throwing people out. You can heckle, but we can't have it where the other side

can't hear, and if it does get that way, we'll simply remove people.

I apologize to the Premier for the interruption.

Hon Mr Eves: As I indicated yesterday, the average price of hydro for the May-to-October period is up 16% in Ontario in terms of price, 7% in

terms of volume, 23% on average for consumers across the province. I understand that for individual months there are people in the province who are having difficulty. We are going to come up with a

plan -- you will hear about it very shortly and it will become active immediately -- to deal with the price increases for consumers in the province.

But I repeat what I said a few minutes earlier: you are the last person who should be talking about protecting small business when 199 times you voted against

small business in this Legislature. And then you have the gall to come in here today and be the big protector and defender of small business when you've dumped all over them for the last seven

years.

Mr McGuinty: Premier, with hydro bills going up some 60%, 100%, 150% for small business in Ontario, that is the single biggest tax hike that

they've had to grapple with in the last 20 years in the province. If you won't get it, at least Garfield Dunlop does. He said, in today's Orillia Packet and Times, "We know we've made a mistake....

Electricity rates are unacceptable and we must resolve the issue because it is impacting jobs and the economy."

Premier, you failed to do your homework. You failed to listen to the Provincial Auditor about Pickering A, and now it's behind

schedule and way over budget.

The transmission line with Quebec is on hold. You stopped Beck 3 from getting up and running. The NDP killed our chance to get clean, affordable power from Manitoba. Your ideological blinders are

on. You charged ahead, you didn't plan, and Ontarians are paying a terrible price. I ask you again, what specifically are you going to be doing for both businesses and Ontario families?

Hon Mr Eves: We are going to be helping those families, as we've helped them with 199 tax reductions, each one of which you voted against. I

presume you'll be against this, too. You'll be against helping people in the province of Ontario. Your record is quite clear; your record is quite consistent. You have voted against every single

measure we have introduced to help more modest-income Ontarians.

Over a 40% tax reduction to those modest-income earners: you voted against that. Cutting small business's tax rate in half to the lowest in Canada: you voted

against that. Now when you think it's politically expedient, you're trying to make political hay on the backs of those people. Be consistent. Are you going to side with the small people this time,

or are you going to bluster yourself up to try to cash in at the political table?

Mr McGuinty: Premier, if you're looking for a consistent record in this House on policies, it is your mismanagement and your incompetence.

Once again, you didn't do your homework, and this time consumers are stuck with the hydro bill.

But let's take a look at the record; sadly, we've seen this movie too many times before. You screwed up the education funding formula, you screwed up on tax

breaks for pro sports teams, you screwed up on hiking seniors' residences fees, you screwed up on the hydro IPO, you screwed up when you fired thousands of nurses, you screwed up when you sat as

Minister of Finance and cut the Ministry of the Environment, which led to the Walkerton tragedy. You're like the arsonist who keeps setting fires and tries to take credit when he then scrambles to

put them out. I'm asking you again, Premier: given this record of mismanagement and incompetence, given your consistent failure to get it right the first time, why should families and businesses

believe you're ever going to get this one right?

Hon Mr Eves: Only a Liberal who doesn't think we should be spending $8 billion a year more on health care in this province could stand up and

say we have reduced funding to health care. Only a Liberal who doesn't seem to think there's any consequence to just spending money willy-nilly, even though you had a great

part in jacking up the

provincial debt to $115 billion when your party was in power -- that didn't seem to bother you. Eight billion dollars more on health care, over $2 billion more on public education, over half a

billion dollars more on public education in-year this year alone, making sure that people in Timiskaming get the same education as people in Toronto. You say one thing when you're in Toronto, and

you say another thing when you're in Timiskaming. But people aren't that stupid, Dalton.

Interjections.

The Speaker: OK, we need to proceed now. We've had our fun. The leader of the third party has the floor.

HYDRO DEREGULATION

Mr Howard Hampton (Kenora-Rainy River): My question is for the Premier, but let me say that if Liberals or Conservatives want to ensure that

people don't have their power cut off, they can pass Bill 204, my No Freezing in the Dark private member's bill, and do it today.

Premier, while you and the Liberals want to sell off our hydro system to the Enrons and Brascans of the world, the same corporations that have profiteered from

private, deregulated hydro in California, Ontario and elsewhere, the Toronto-Dominion Bank yesterday admitted that deregulated, privatized hydro doesn't work very well. They say that after the

Enron fiasco and some of the other private hydro disasters in the United States, the Toronto-Dominion Bank won't be lending any more money to private hydro companies. Why do you and the Liberals

want to take Ontario's hydro consumers further down the privatization and deregulation road when even the banks won't go there any more?

Hon Ernie Eves (Premier, Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs): The leader of the third party knows we're not privatizing OPG. He thinks it

makes good air time, I guess, to talk about privatization of OPG, but we're not privatizing OPG, and he knows that.

I've heard the honourable member stand up in his place many times and criticize banks, bad-mouth banks, and now when it suits his political purpose, he's

quoting banks. Can I expect more of the same in the future, Howard? Everything the Toronto-Dominion Bank says from here on in, you're going to be onside, right?

Mr Hampton: Premier, let's remember what this is about. A woman in Hamilton this past week had her power cut off after she left for work. Her

disabled tenant had to ask his parents in Niagara Falls to come and pick him up because the temperature in the house plunged. People like that, people like these folks in Hamilton, don't want a

temporary rebate in an attempt to cover up the hydro deregulation problem. They want and need a long-term solution.

The Liberals and yourself say that we should sell off our hydro generating stations and that we should turn to the private sector and entice them to come and

build new hydro generating stations. But the Toronto-Dominion Bank is saying they're not going to lend any money to private generating companies. So tell us, how do you and the Liberals intend to

provide the power that is needed if private companies can't borrow the money to build from Bay Street banks any more?

Hon Mr Eves: The honourable member will know that Ontario Hydro/OPG produces about 77% or 78% of the power used in the province. He will also

know that Bruce produces another 15%. If he cares to add those two numbers together, he will also know that that is in excess of what the average daily usage in Ontario is, and that those two

entities combined, both of which are controlled or leased out by the province of Ontario or by OPG, supply more than enough power on an average daily basis in the province.

I do agree with him that we have to have a plan to encourage people to develop more supply in the province so that we will have an increased supply as we go

forward, and you will hear about that in due course.

Mr Hampton: That is the $64-million question. You and the Liberals both say we should sell off our hydro system to the private sector and rely

on private companies, through incentives, to build. Well, Bay Street says they won't lend any money to private hydro companies to build generating stations. Some of the other lobbyists you are

listening to, the so-called Stakeholders' Alliance, actually say that the way to provide incentives is to let hydro rates go even higher. It's as if they believe the consumers of Ontario are

naughty children who need to be spanked with yet higher hydro rates.

Premier, you and the Liberals have to answer to the people of Ontario. So far the solution that both of you have put forward is to rely upon private companies.

Well, the banks aren't going to allow them any more money, so what are you and the Liberals going to do -- allow hydro rates to go even higher so you can entice your private sector friends to come

in and make bigger profits? Is that the only solution you're offering?

Hon Mr Eves: Absolutely not.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): New question.

Mr Hampton: I'm going to return to that question. Premier, even in the heart of Republican America yesterday, voters --

Applause.

Mr Hampton: -- turned thumbs down on hydro deregulation. You should be careful what you clap for. In Montana, voters yesterday rejected the

deregulation of the hydro system by a vote of 60% to 40%. In Las Vegas, where they gamble on almost everything, the voters are saying they're not prepared to gamble on deregulated hydro. They want

a regulated hydro system.

Even your own member, Garfield Dunlop, the latest MPP to come out and say that deregulated, privatized hydro was a mistake, even he is out there now.

Premier, when will you admit that deregulated, privatized hydro doesn't work for hydro consumers? Everyone else seems to be figuring it out; when will you?

Hon Mr Eves: I think I indicated to the honourable member yesterday and again today that obviously the member that he refers to is concerned

about prices of power in his riding, as every member of the Legislature is in their own constituency, myself included. You will see, in very short order, that we will be assisting the people of the

province of Ontario in that endeavour, and that we will be bringing in a plan that will help them as we go forward in the future with respect to prices of power in the province.

Mr Hampton: Premier, I'll say once again: the people of Ontario aren't interested in some kind of just-before-the-election rebate that you and

the Liberals continue to talk about.

Another interesting lesson from yesterday: you know California, that your former Minister of Energy used to refer to? Yesterday, the governor of California,

who said very clearly that hydro needs to be re-regulated in California, was re-elected. Your Republican friends who want to privatize and deregulate hydro in that state were told, "No,

thanks."

Again, Premier, I want to say to you that people elsewhere in the world who've had experience with deregulated hydro are saying, "No, thanks. We want a

regulated hydro system; we want a regulated price; we don't want to be vulnerable to the price fixers and the market manipulators." When will you straightforwardly come out and tell the people of

this province that you're going to turn away from deregulated hydro and privatized hydro? When?

Hon Mr Eves: The honourable member won't have to wait long to see what the plan is.

RACIAL PROFILING

Mr Dalton McGuinty (Leader of the Opposition): My question again is to the Premier. We've learned today, and I assume that you're aware of

this, that Justice Charles Dubin has withdrawn his involvement from the external review of the Toronto Police Services race relations policies and practices. Yesterday I asked you not to wait for

more studies. Instead, I suggested that we strike an implementation task force to put the myriad of studies we already have into action. We have been studying this for the past 25 years. I don't

believe that we should put it off one day longer.

I ask you again, but particularly in light of this new fact, Premier, that Mr Justice Charles Dubin is no longer going to be involved in this matter: will you

take action and strike an implementation task force?

Hon Ernie Eves (Premier, Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs): If the leader of the official opposition has read Mr Justice Charles Dubin's

letter, he will know that the reason Mr Justice Dubin outlines in his letter to Chief Fantino is that, in light of the fact that a summit is going to be chaired by the Honourable Lincoln Alexander,

he feels his presence would be superfluous to what Lincoln Alexander is doing.

I told you yesterday in this House that we've been consulting with the Honourable Lincoln Alexander, that we're interested in meeting with and participating

with leaders in the black community to have a meeting and try to resolve this issue. I congratulate the Honourable Lincoln Alexander in taking an initiative in this very important area.

Mr McGuinty: Premier, nobody is disputing that what Lincoln Alexander is about to do -- and I hope that his initiative gets underway shortly

-- is a good, decent and honourable thing. But what I am looking to you for is leadership on this file. There are several studies that have been completed in the past, and I don't believe, sir,

that in this case leadership ought to be an option. I think you have to act.

I'm not asking for the world here. I'm simply asking that you strike an implementation task force that will then study those individual reports and come up

with a specific plan of action for us to move forward on. Otherwise, what we're doing here in this House is that, once again, you, sir, would be washing your hands of an issue that strikes at the

core of social cohesion in the province of Ontario. I've indicated that Alvin Curling, my colleague, is more than ready to prepare and assist in any way in this matter. I ask you again, why could

you not strike an implementation task force so that we can move forward on the many recommendations that have been put forward over 25 years?

Hon Mr Eves: I don't know whether he doesn't think the Honourable Lincoln Alexander is capable of doing this or that the summit he has called

for is going to be sufficient to deal with the problem. I'm certainly willing to participate in the process and do what we can, in representing the government of Ontario, to make sure that the

black community's needs are dealt with and heard. The Honourable Lincoln Alexander has started what I think is a very viable process.

We have, quite frankly, responded. As you'll recall, there was a request for an independent civilian body to look into police complaints in Ontario, and we

complied with that in 1997. In fact, that agency has existed -- it is a totally civilian body -- since 1997. People who are not satisfied with complaints they take to either the OPP or, in this

case, the Toronto Police Service complaints commission have the ability to go to this province-wide body, which is totally civilian, and get an independent hearing on any complaint they have. That

recommendation has already been acted upon. It was acted upon in 1997.

MUNICIPALITIES

Mr AL McDonald (Nipissing): My question is for the Associate Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing responsible for urban issues. Minister,

I understand you're hosting a two-day conference for provincial and territorial ministers of local government this week. You must be very pleased to represent key matters relating to municipal

issues in our province to other leaders across our country.

As the past deputy mayor of North Bay and the current member of provincial Parliament for Nipissing, I know how important municipal matters are to this

province and to all our ridings. Recently, in the federal throne speech and the Sgro interim report, the federal government indicated they have a new interest in municipalities and municipal

issues. Minister, my question for you today is, could you tell the House how you plan to acknowledge the federal government's recognition of municipalities?

Hon Tina R. Molinari (Associate Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing): I want to thank the member for the question. This is an important

issue for municipalities. Not only is it a concern in your riding, but it's a concern throughout the province and the country.

It was evident in the provincial-territorial conference in August that the provinces and territories welcome Ottawa's recognition that it has a significant

long-term financial responsibility toward municipalities. We believe that any increased federal interest in municipal issues must respect provincial-territorial jurisdiction and that new federal

initiatives like improving infrastructure must build on provincial priorities regarding municipal matters. If we do this, we will be continuing an effort to make our cities the most competitive and

livable in the world. In fact, Canadian cities are among the safest, cleanest and most attractive in the business world. They are strong, healthy and vibrant, and we intend to keep them that

way.

Mr McDonald: Thank you for your answer. I'm pleased to hear that there is a call for Ottawa to finally recognize their long-term financial

responsibilities to local municipalities.

A recent independent study done by the Conference Board of Canada indicates that the federal government needs to address the large growing fiscal imbalance in

Canada between themselves and the provinces. This fiscal imbalance leaves the provinces to bear an unfair share of health, education and social service costs.

Minister, could you tell us more about the study and the need for a new dialogue with the federal government on this issue?

Hon Mrs Molinari: Once again, I want to thank the member from Nipissing for his interest. His constituents are certainly very fortunate to

have him representing them here in this House.

I would be glad to expand on the findings of the study. The study finds that the federal budget surplus will reach almost $86 billion by 2020. During that same

time period, the aggregate provincial-territorial net debt will rise 54% to $387 billion. Our government does not believe that Ottawa should enjoy large revenue surpluses while the provinces have

to bear the unfair share.

We have worked hard to make sure that municipalities are economically strong and globally competitive. This week's conference will look at the innovative

long-term strategies to help our cities respond to the economic, environmental and social changes. We will continue to work with all levels of government to make sure that we work in a positive and

constructive manner.

ONTARIO POWER GENERATION

Mr Michael Bryant (St Paul's): The question is for the Premier. This morning, in media scrums, your finance minister and the former energy

minister, Mr Wilson, echoed the comments of your energy minister last week; they just had nothing good to say about the performance of Ontario Power Generation. That wasn't the tune that was being

sung by your energy minister last June, who said in this House, "OPG is running well. They've done a good job of privatizing. They've done a good job setting up the open market.... I think" -- CEO

-- "Mr Osborne has done a good job, and at ... $l.7 million a year .... I suppose that's reasonable."

I know what the position was this morning; I know what the position was in June. What we'd like to know from the Premier is, do you think that Ontario Power

Generation is doing a good job?

Hon Ernie Eves (Premier, Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs): First of all, I know the honourable member can foresee all circumstances. I

know that he obviously is an expert in building and renovating nuclear power plants in the province of Ontario, so perhaps you could just, you know, pop down to OPG and solve their problem for them

in five minutes this afternoon when you're not doing anything.

The reality is, as the member for St Paul's knows, as every other member in this House knows, that this is a very complicated area in terms of nuclear energy.

Obviously OPG's estimates that Pickering would be up and running by now were overly optimistic at the least, and obviously nobody's happy that they're not up and running.

Mr Bryant: You say you're not happy, and this government will continue to blow smoke on the performance of Ontario Power Generation, but when

it comes to dressing down the management of OPG you continue to refuse to put your money where your mouth is. When will the bad performance of Hydro's hydra, OPG, translate into your hydro heads

"getting a pay cut"?

The combined annual salary of your CEO and your chair exceeds $2 million a year. You say they're not doing a good job. When are you going to put your money

where your mouth is and give these folks a pay cut or, even better, sack them altogether?

Hon Mr Eves: I seem to recall that we had a similar issue in this House with respect to Hydro One many months ago, and I seem to recall that

the honourable member voted against the bill that would address the problem.

Having said that, the issue about Pickering is obviously not an easy issue. If it were, people would have solved it a long time ago. The reality is it's not up

and running today. Obviously, I'm not happy about that. I don't think anybody in the province is happy about that, and the Minister of Energy is looking into the issue and taking it up with

OPG.

LONG-TERM CARE

Mr Ernie Hardeman (Oxford): My question is to the Associate Minister of Health and Long-Term Care. Every member of the House knows how

important it is to meet the long-term-care needs of Ontario's growing and aging population throughout the province. This challenge is one that is faced across the province, and it's also faced in

my riding of Oxford.

Minister, you will know that in Oxford, in the village of Norwich we have a 60-bed facility, a D facility, Norvilla Nursing Home, where there is a proposal to

move the beds to a different facility in Woodstock. Both communities are in my riding, but the citizens of Norwich are very concerned about maintaining a nursing home or a long-term-care facility

in their community for their community-type living.

They have expressed some concern, and I want to thank the minister, who last Friday met with the concerned citizens to speak about some of the alternatives

that might exist in bringing the facility to an A facility and maintaining it in the village. I was wondering if the minister could update us on that situation and what we're doing about the 60

nursing care beds at Norvilla in the village of Norwich.

Hon Dan Newman (Associate Minister of Health and Long-Term Care): I thank the honourable member for Oxford for his question. It is true that

he and I have been working on this matter for the past several weeks. I want to let the people of Oxford know how hard their member is working on their behalf.

As the honourable member indicated, I met last Friday with the concerned citizens of Norwich to listen and to discuss the transfer of long-term-care beds to

Woodstock. There's no doubt that every person there cares very deeply about providing quality long-term-care services to local residents.

It is true that 60 long-term-care beds at Norvilla Nursing Home in Norwich are proposed to be transferred a short distance away to Woodstock. But the proposal

not only states that the beds stay within the honourable member's riding but that they will be located in a redeveloped and upgraded facility where even better long-term care will be provided to

the residents. This means that quality long-term-care services will continue to be available for the citizens of Norwich and the people of Oxford. A final decision should be expected shortly.

Mr Hardeman: Thank you very much, Mr Minister, for the very informative response. I'm pleased that you took the time to meet with my

constituents to talk about the possibilities for long-term care for the people of Norwich. I know how much even better long-term care means to them. They were very emphatic in the meeting about

that. They are very concerned about the quality of long-term care for their citizens.

I'm very proud to be part of a government that's investing the historic $1.2 billion toward even better long-term-care services in Ontario. I would like to ask

the associate minister if he could please update the House on the status of our government's long-term-care bed implementation initiative in the Oxford service area.

Hon Mr Newman: As part of our government's unprecedented $1.2-billion reinvestment in Ontario's long-term-care sector, five existing

facilities in the Oxford service area will be redeveloping a total of 348 beds that don't meet the ministry's legislated structural standards. As well, a total of 21 new beds were awarded in the

Oxford service area.

The 348 upgraded long-term-care beds will promote a more home-like environment for residents. The facilities will include comfortable home areas for up to 32

people. Each home area includes bedrooms and washrooms, as well as space for daily living activities such as dining and leisure. As well, bedrooms in each home area will accommodate either one or

two residents, and activities and lounge areas in each home area will be close to each resident's room.

I say to the honourable member that these new long-term-care services will mean even better long-term care for the people of Oxford. That's what the Ernie Eves

government's $1.2-billion reinvestment in long-term care is all about.

DÉRÉGLEMENTATION

DE L'ÉLECTRICITÉ /

HYDRO RATES

M. Gilles Bisson (Timmins-Baie James): Ma question s'adresse au premier ministre, s'il voudrait poigner son écouteur. Monsieur le premier

ministre, vous savez que depuis que vous avez ouvert le marché au mois de mai, c'est rien qu'un désastre pour les consommateurs en Ontario. On voit des augmentations de 40 %,

60 % et 100 %, dépendamment dans quelle

partie de la province on demeure quand ça vient au prix de l'hydro. On regarde ce qui va arriver cet hiver, parce qu'on sait que l'hiver

passé c'était à 20 % plus chaud que ce à quoi on s'attend cet hiver, que les augmentations vont continuer à être même pires que vous vous attendez.

Justement, M. Claude Briant, à Hearst, a regardé son augmentation du prix de l'hydro passer de 114 $ l'année passée à 200 $ cette année.

Ma question est très simple. La déréglementation ne marche pas. L'ouverture du marché ne marche pas. Quand est-ce que vous allez canceller

toutes vos initiatives dans cette direction ?

Hon Ernie Eves (Premier, Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs): The honourable member has been here in question period, I believe, yesterday

and today and has heard me talk about the average price of power in the province. Over the May to October period it has gone up 23% on average. I will acknowledge that 16% of that is attributable

to an increase in rates; 7% is attributable to an increase in volume. He also acknowledged in the preface to his question that indeed the weather does play a great

part in what those rates are.

Having said that, we are going to address the issue surrounding people like the constituent he has just referred to in his question, and he will see in very

short order that we will be taking action to reimburse people for monies they have laid out with respect to a price increase. However, people are going to have to realize, of course, that they

can't use power in the same volume we have been accustomed to using in the past. I'm sure we all acknowledge that we have to do our

part in conservation.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Supplementary?

Ms Marilyn Churley (Toronto-Danforth): Premier, let me tell you there's a hotbed of hydro hot heads growing in Toronto, and they want the NDP

to deliver their message to you, because they know the Liberals support privatization. In my riding, Margaret Frieze's hydro bill went up to $317 from $170 despite her best efforts to conserve,

which you just mentioned. She and her son often sit in the dark, she cancelled her cable and stopped watching TV, the furnace is well tuned and kept low, but she still cannot afford your

deregulated prices. Self-described former Conservatives Justin and Marlene wonder: "Is our only option to live in the dark, cold, heat, throughout the seasons, or would it be more reasonable to get

rid of a party that definitely does not meet the interests of common middle-class people?" Premier, you are still not listening to 80% of the people of Toronto and Ontario who want hydro

privatization stopped. Stop fiddling while Rome burns. Will you stop hydro privatization now?

Hon Mr Eves: I would appreciate looking at the information the honourable member has, because people who are governed by Toronto Hydro have

their prices fixed at a lower rate and Toronto Hydro has in fact been absorbing any increase in the average price since the market became open. I would be interested in seeing the particulars of

the case she refers to.

The Speaker: New question. The member for Durham.

Mr John O'Toole (Durham): My question is to the Associate Minister of Enterprise, Opportunity and Innovation.

Interjections.

The Speaker: I apologize. That was my fault.

New question. The member for Sarnia-Lambton.

HAZARDOUS WASTE

Ms Caroline Di Cocco (Sarnia-Lambton): My question is to the Minister of the Environment. You know that Ontario is the only jurisdiction in

North America that accepts untreated hazardous waste. I'm sure you have heard of the contaminated tar in Sydney, Nova Scotia, called the Domtar tank. I'd like to ask the minister, do you know that

this highly contaminated material, this highly hazardous material will be trucked into Ontario to the CleanHarbors Safety-Kleen site because we are the only jurisdiction that will accept

non-treated hazardous waste? Will you allow this hazardous waste to be dumped into Ontario at the end of the month?

Hon Chris Stockwell (Minister of the Environment, Government House Leader): You know full well that we're changing the regulations as far as

transporting hazardous waste in the province of Ontario. It's been a number of years, and it hasn't been changed. We are the government that's moved forward to actually take the initiative to

change the allowable levels of hazardous waste to be trucked into Ontario. This decision was taken by the Ministry of the Environment in the last couple of years. They were moving toward a

situation that's the same in the United States as well as in neighbouring jurisdictions. If you would like to send me the information you have to see if it fits the criteria or not, I'll be happy

to review it.

Ms Di Cocco: I'll be more than pleased to send you the information, because this is a $3.7-million contract that's been signed and the

shipment is going to begin at the end of the month, in a couple of weeks. Ontario is the only jurisdiction that will accept it untreated in such a high, toxic state. We're jeopardizing the

environment. We're jeopardizing human health. It's literally going to be dumped into a landfill here in Ontario. We have become the toxic waste haven on this continent, Minister, and you have to

change the regulations before something happens, not after the fact. Will you accept this waste in the next couple of weeks when the shipment begins?

Hon Mr Stockwell: The reality is that we did in fact change the regulations. The ministry has harmonized a number of its hazardous waste

standards with the US EPA. So they would not be allowed to ship the hazardous waste, simply because it wouldn't meet the same standards of the US EPA. They wouldn't be able to do that.

The truth of the matter is, since we've come to office there's been a 31% decrease in hazardous waste inputs into Ontario, because we agreed this was an

unacceptable situation. So we've harmonized our position with that of the neighbouring jurisdiction.

Finally, yes, we are in fact in contact with Safety-Kleen's operations. We have in fact tested, we're on-site and we're negotiating with them as to whether it

meets the standards we've changed the regulations to and that we put in place.

I'm really surprised the member opposite didn't know that. Surely you should have known that we --

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Order.

Hon Mr Stockwell: Surely, you --

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. The minister has 10 seconds to wrap up, please.

Hon Mr Stockwell: Surely, after I told you that at estimates committee two weeks ago, I thought it would have sunk in. But apparently, two

weeks later, your attention span doesn't last that long. I told you two weeks ago that we've harmonized with the US and it would have to meet --

The Speaker: I'm afraid the minister's time is up.

And now the member for Durham.

ONTARIO ECONOMY

Mr John O'Toole (Durham): My question is to the Minister of Enterprise, Opportunity and Innovation. I know yesterday marked a very important

day for innovation in this great province of Ontario, with Ontario's Innovation Challenge held right here in Toronto, I might say. A key component of yesterday's summit was the unveiling of the

first annual report of the province's Task Force on Competitiveness, Productivity and Economic Process. Minister, can you tell the members of this House, who are keenly interested, and the people

of Ontario about the task force and their first annual report card?

Hon David Turnbull (Associate Minister of Enterprise, Opportunity and Innovation): I thank the member for Durham for this important question,

and I would like to take this opportunity to thank the task force, chaired by Roger Martin, the Dean of the U of T's Rotman School of Business, for its work.

The findings confirm that Ontario is an extremely strong economy built on a solid foundation. Here's the important thing, and perhaps the Liberals might want

to listen to this: outside of certain US states, Ontario is today the most powerful economy in the whole world. Per capita GDP has increased steadily since 1995, and among substantially sized

countries, if Ontario were treated as a separate country, it would rank second in the world after the US.

However, there is still work to be done. We must work to close the prosperity gap --

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): I'm afraid the associate minister's time is up.

Mr O'Toole: I'd like to thank you for that, Minister, and I'd like to thank Minister Flaherty as well, and also extend thanks to the members

of the task force. Could you give us some details on other measures and how you're gauging the very important performance of Ontario's economy -- as we all know, a strong economy allows us to

provide all the other wonderful benefits of our quality of life -- and expand on some of the key points in the report issued yesterday?

Hon Mr Turnbull: Ontario outperforms Europe's so-called Four Motors, which are Baden-Württemberg, Rhône-Alpes, Catalonia and

Lombardy. The report finds that Ontario has many advantages. We have a very beneficial mix of industry clusters, we have very strong participation in the labour market and we have a good

demographic profile. In fact, Ontario ranks as doing very well on the creativity index. Toronto has one of North America's strongest creative classes.

The report cites tax rates as a significant factor in attracting innovation. This government has reduced taxes almost 200 times. This is something the members

opposite have voted against every single time. We can take great pride in the work our government has done in creating a culture of innovation and prosperity. Our accomplishments reflect the

findings of the report.

DEFERRAL OF OMB APPEALS

Mr Dalton McGuinty (Leader of the Opposition): My question is for the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. Minister, 21 days ago you

intervened in a local democratic process in Ottawa, a process dealing with a change toward boundaries which had been planned to be in place prior to the next municipal elections. In fact, you

brought the entire process to a screeching halt.

I have here a copy of the notice of deferral signed by you, as Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing, where you give notice to the OMB that the appeals

before it are to be deferred. My question is simply this: were you fully briefed on this file before you attached your signature to this document?

Hon Chris Hodgson (Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing): Of course. I have an Associate Minister of Municipal Affairs, Minister Coburn,

who is from Ottawa, who is in charge of this file. If you have a supplemental, I'm sure Brian would like to answer it.

Mr McGuinty: Minister, given that you now have made public that you were in fact fully briefed, I think the people of Ottawa are entitled to

know the reasons behind your putting this whole matter on ice. Don't you think that is fair? You're the minister, it's your notice of deferral, it is your signature. You now confirm that you

yourself were fully briefed. I think you owe it to the people of Ottawa to tell us exactly why, give us your reasons as to why you put this matter on ice.

Hon Mr Hodgson: This is a precedent that he's setting for if he's ever able to win an election and become the Premier: that he wouldn't have

any cabinet ministers, that he wouldn't have any associate ministers, that he would have everything delegated to the Minister of Finance, who signs the cheques. For the Minister of Health, there

are long-term care ministers who have handled issues capably, who communicate with stakeholders directly. There's a reason for that. We have a large province, we're trying to give more focus to

municipal affairs and municipal issues, and the former Minister of Rural Affairs is in charge of this file: he fully briefs me and we brief the cabinet. As far as communicating it, I think he has

done an admirable job. He has talked to all the media in Ottawa, and he continues to talk to the residents of the Ottawa area and the council.

ROAD SAFETY

Mr Raminder Gill (Bramalea-Gore-Malton-Springdale): My question is for the Minister of Transportation. Whether we like it or not, winter is

just around the corner. In fact, some regions have already had a taste of winter cold, snowfall, sleet and slush. These conditions, along with reduced visibility, from time to time mean treacherous

travel across the province, particularly when we're not expecting those winter storms. Can you please inform this House and the constituents of my great riding of Bramalea-Gore-Malton-Springdale if

your ministry is ready to respond to winter storms, and tell us what you will be doing to keep our roads safe for winter driving.

Hon Norman W. Sterling (Minister of Transportation): I appreciate the member's question. Winter has hit early in many parts of Ontario. I want

to tell each and every one of the members here that our maintenance equipment and staffing levels are all at full complement and ready to respond. In fact, our winter maintenance standards and

practices are among the best in North America. This means that we respond quickly and effectively to winter weather conditions.

In addition to those high standards, my ministry is using leading-edge technology to deal with winter weather: we're predicting through advanced weather

forecasting; we're preventing by pre-treating roads with liquid anti-icing agents; we're patrolling on a continual basis and monitoring highway conditions so prompt dispatch of equipment can be

made when needed; fleets of sand and salt spreaders and snowplows are ready to go when they get the call.

Our maintenance crews, our patrollers of the highways, do a tremendous job for the people of Ontario during the winter period.

Mr Gill: I want to thank the minister for his response. While I am impressed with the number of innovative things your ministry is doing to

keep roads safe for winter driving, I also feel it is important that motorists have access to timely road and weather conditions information so that they can plan their trips appropriately. After

all, avoiding dangerous conditions is the best protection one can have.

Minister, can you tell us how your ministry intends to inform the travelling public of the road and weather conditions across this province?

Hon Mr Sterling: I understand that information is very, very important. We have important connects with various different TV stations,

24-hour, seven-day stations. We have a well-informed situation with regard to the conditions on a 24-hour, seven-day basis. We have an info line, 1-800-268-4686, which is continuously updated, to

provide reports on current road conditions. We have a Web site, www.mto.gov.on.ca, which is another example of up-to-date information on a 24-hour, seven-day basis.

By keeping the public well informed about up-to-date conditions of our roads, the public can show better judgment and

take better routes in order to avoid slippery and hazardous conditions.

HYDRO RATES

Ms Shelley Martel (Nickel Belt): I have a question to the Premier. Premier, you really need to listen to those people who are writing and

calling to express their serious concerns about hydro costs.

Thomas Grylls of Chelmsford has seen his bill go up by over 33% in the last three months. He wrote, "Ontario Hydro should have remained as Ontario Hydro."

Leonard Nieberg of Barrie is a sole-support parent with two disabled children in receipt of social assistance. His bill has gone up by $80 a month. Leonard

said, "The increase in hydro has pushed my budget over the top making it impossible for me to provide for the basic needs of my children."

In Hastings county the director of social services says that while the county is weeks away from official winter, they are "already bailing people out" through

an emergency fund to help pay hydro bills.

Premier, when will you listen to these and many other people and cancel hydro deregulation and privatization?

Hon Ernie Eves (Premier, Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs): The honourable member has obviously listened to the debate in question period

yesterday and today and would know the answer to her question already. I understand that rates, on average, for the period of May to October have gone up by some 23%. She's picked the last three

months; of course, the market has been open since May 1.

I don't dispute the fact that people's hydro bills have gone up. We have said that we will respond. For those people who are on social assistance, they can ask

for extra assistance to deal with bills if they have extraordinary circumstances.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Supplementary.

Mr Rosario Marchese (Trinity-Spadina): Premier, we're listening to you very carefully, and the majority of people want and say that public

power is the only way to go. I know you don't listen to us, but you've got to listen to the people who write to us. And here's what they're saying.

The Uruski family, who used to vote for you guys, by the way, saw their bill increase by $150 a month. They say you're driving more people on to social

assistance to support their families.

Joseph Koziol saw his bill increase by $325 a month. He asks you to remember California and, "Reverse the privatization of hydro and return hydro to government

hands."

Gail Patterson says, "Hydro, like clean air and clean water, should not depend on the fluctuation of the market."

Premier, I know that Premier Klein probably told you, "Bribe people with their own money. Give them the rebate and it probably will work." You know very well

that rebates are not going to solve your mess. The message is clear: end deregulation and your sell-off of Ontario Hydro and return to publicly owned hydro.

Hon Mr Eves: First of all, the honourable member knows full well that OPG has not been privatized, so to even suggest that in a question is

not being accurate, to say the least.

With respect to his issue with respect to prices, he knows that we are going to respond to prices. Is he saying that now

he doesn't want us to address this issue in a rebate program? He seems to be saying, "Don't come up with a rebate program." We are going to come up with a program -- he will hear about it in due

course -- to deal with the increase in the prices of power that people have had to deal with from May to October, and we are going to come up with a long-term solution.

DEFERRAL OF OMB APPEALS

Mr Dalton McGuinty (Leader of the Opposition): I want to return to the Minister of Municipal Affairs. Minister, you told me a moment ago in

response to my question as to whether you were fully briefed that you were, and yet you won't give us any accounting of the reasons behind your signing this document which put a democratic process

in Ottawa on hold.

My questions for you right now are threefold and very simple: when were you briefed, Minister, who briefed you, and how long did the briefing last?

Hon Chris Hodgson (Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing): I know the Minister of Municipal Affairs would want to give you all the details

on that.

Hon Brian Coburn (Associate Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing): This is an issue that I've been monitoring since it started. Because

the city has now appealed their decision to the OMB, we're in a position where I'm not able to comment any further on this specific issue.

Mr McGuinty: You know, it's funny that the minister himself had no reservations whatsoever about interfering in a process that was before the

OMB. This notice of deferral shut the whole damn thing down.

Do you know what I think happened, Minister? I think this was another walk-around. I think you attached your signature to a document without any real

appreciation whatsoever for the consequences of interfering in a local democratic process.

I ask you again, Minister, on behalf of the people of Ottawa: you tell us you were fully briefed. When were you briefed, who briefed you, and how long did the

briefing last?

Hon Mr Coburn: In municipal affairs and especially in the rural sector, I have a concern for all the residents who live in rural Ontario. With

respect to this particular issue, now because there is an appeal with respect to the decision in front of the OMB, unfortunately I'm not able to discuss it in any great detail.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): There is time. The member for Bruce-Grey-Owen Sound was up.

BIOSOLID MANAGEMENT

Mr Bill Murdoch (Bruce-Grey-Owen Sound): I believe there is time for one question, and my question is to the Minister of Agriculture.

Interjections.

Mr Murdoch: I got it right today. Anyway --

Mr David Caplan (Don Valley East): Ask him about hydro, Bill.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Please, let the member ask the question. I know we're having some fun, but it is annoying when people are yelling

at you. The member has the floor.

Mr Murdoch: I'm only going to get one question; I'm not even going to get a supplementary out of this one.

Madam Minister, in a brochure that you have -- it's an environmental brochure signed by the OFA and many of the other farm organizations -- on page 14, I

believe it's 7.2.3, it says that manure will not be able to be spread on snow-covered ground. I suggest that today, probably north of the 401 where it may be snowing, there may be numerous farmers

right now who, if that regulation was passed, would be breaking the law.

I understand that if the ground's frozen, it's a different thing, but in this regulation it does say just if it's snow-covered. I have some concerns with that,

because at this time of year, that would almost mean that no one would be able to spread solid manure from November to spring. That would put a lot of farmers in an unwanted position because they'd

have too much of the manure to do.

Hon Jim Wilson (Minister of Northern Development and Mines): Pile it up.

Mr Murdoch: Yes, pile it up.

Interjections.

Mr Murdoch: Well, I've got all the time there is, you see, because there's no clock now.

Madam Minister, would you be willing to look at this regulation, sit down and have some consultation again with the OFA and some farmers from my area?

Hon Helen Johns (Minister of Agriculture and Food): I'd like to thank the member for Bruce-Grey-Owen Sound. As you know, we share Bruce

together, so we always have challenging times.

Let me say that the Minister of the Environment, myself and the people within the ministries are working on regulations for Bill 81. The member is speaking

about potential regulations dealing with manure management and the application in snow-covered areas.

I have been consulting with the farm groups across the province to be able to come up with something the agricultural community can live with. Obviously, we

haven't come to any conclusions yet. We continue to work with the farms groups. I still continue to hear from farmers, like Mr Murdoch himself, who have an interest in ensuring that the

agricultural community is protected and taken care of in the province. We, of course, will do our best to balance, as we have all the way along, the environment and the sustainability of

agriculture in the province of Ontario. Both are very important to all of us in this House.

VISITOR

Mr Steve Gilchrist (Scarborough East): On a point of order, Speaker: Along with a number of my colleagues who I know are participating in Take

Our Kids to Work Day, I'm pleased to introduce to my colleagues my great-nephew from the town of Cobourg, Steven Race, who's joining us to see a little bit about what we do here at Queen's

Park.

PETITIONS

HYDRO RATES

Mr John C. Cleary (Stormont-Dundas-Charlottenburgh): I have another hydro petition. It's to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario.

"Whereas electricity bills have skyrocketed under the Harris-Eves government's flawed electricity plan; and

"Whereas some consumers have signed higher fixed-rate contracts with retailers without adequate consumer protection; and

"Whereas the Harris-Eves government has failed to address electricity supply shortages in Ontario, forcing the purchase of American power at premium prices,

driving the prices up; and

"Whereas the Harris-Eves government appointed a board of directors for Hydro One that has been paying themselves extravagant salaries, compensation packages

and severances for senior executives; and

"Whereas Ontario Hydro bought 90 municipal utilities, serving about 240,000 people across Ontario, at premium prices and with borrowed funds. These purchases

with borrowed funds have increased Ontario Hydro's debt burden; and

"Whereas the Harris-Eves government has added additional fees and taxes to local electricity distribution companies. These charges have also been passed along

to consumers;

"Therefore

be it resolved that we, the undersigned, demand that the Harris-Eves government take immediate action to ensure Ontarians have fair and reasonable

prices for the necessary commodity of electricity in Ontario and that the Harris-Eves government and ... Ernie Eves call a general election on the instability of the energy market so that Ontarians

may have a voice on the issue."

The signatures on this petition are from my riding and Prescott-Russell. I've also signed the petition.

ADOPTION DISCLOSURE

Ms Marilyn Churley (Toronto-Danforth): I have more petitions, this time from the area of Aurora. It's on Bill 77, the adoption disclosure act.

It reads:

"To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas Bill 77 passed second reading on June 28, 2001; and

"Whereas Bill 77, the Adoption Disclosure Statute Law Amendment Act, received committee hearings in November 2001; and

"Whereas Bill 77 addresses privacy concerns for those who wish to delay or avoid contact; and

"Whereas adoptees are dying from genetic diseases in the absence of their family medical history; and

"Whereas birth mothers were never promised confidentiality;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"Immediately call Bill 77, the Adoption Disclosure Statute Law Amendment Act, for third reading and final vote."

I will affix my signature to this petition because I, of course, fully support it.

ELECTORAL BOUNDARIES

Mr John O'Toole (Durham): I'm pleased to have the page Alexander from Sault Ste Marie take this petition to the table.

"Whereas Elections Canada has proposed a change of boundaries for the current Durham riding; and

"Whereas the proposed new riding of Clarington-Northumberland would encompass two different levels of local government, namely Durham region and Northumberland

county, and a combination of communities both inside and outside the greater Toronto area (GTA); and

"Whereas Clarington and Northumberland have differing interests with respect to the association with the GTA and Durham region; and

"Whereas the proposed Clarington-Northumberland population of 113,396 exceeds the provincial quotient by more than 5% and is likely to grow even larger as the

high-growth communities within the area expand;

"Therefore we, the undersigned, respectfully request that the electoral boundaries be reconsidered to reflect the above concerns and that consideration be

given to establish boundaries indicated on the attached map" -- which I know isn't appropriate.

I'm pleased to present this petition on behalf of my constituents in the riding of Durham.

HIGHWAY 69

Mr Rick Bartolucci (Sudbury): This is the continuing petition about multi-laning Highway 69. It's to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario.

"Whereas modern highways are economic lifelines for the north; and

"Whereas the stretch of Highway 69 from Sudbury south to Parry Sound is a treacherous road with a trail of death and destruction; and

"Whereas the carnage on Highway 69 has been staggering; and

"Whereas in the last three years, 46 people have been killed along that stretch of highway; and

"Whereas, so far this year, 10 people have died tragically along that stretch of highway between Sudbury and Parry Sound; and

"Whereas the Minister of Transportation has not acknowledged the danger on that highway; and

"Whereas the government has withheld two feasibility studies concerning Highway 69 from the public; and

"Whereas the Harris-Eves government has shown gross irresponsibility in not four-laning the stretch of Highway 69 between Sudbury and Parry Sound; and

"Whereas immediate action is needed to prevent more needless loss of life; and

"Whereas it is the responsibility of any government to provide safe roads for its citizens, and the Harris-Eves government has failed to do so;

"Be it resolved that we, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to urge the Harris-Eves government to begin construction immediately and

four-lane Highway 69 between Sudbury and Parry Sound so that the carnage on Death Road North will cease."

I affix my signature and give it to our page Maureen to bring to the table.

EDUCATION FUNDING

Mr Rosario Marchese (Trinity-Spadina): I've got a petition signed by hundreds of citizens.

"To the Ontario Legislature:

"Whereas the government has cut over $2 billion from public education over the past seven years;

"Whereas the provincial funding formula does not provide sufficient funds for local district school board trustees to meet the needs of students;

"Whereas district school boards around the province have had to cut needed programs and services including library, music, physical education and special

education;

"Whereas the district school boards in Hamilton-Wentworth, Ottawa-Carleton and Toronto refused to make further cuts and were summarily replaced with

government-appointed supervisors;

"Whereas these supervisors are undermining classroom education for hundreds of thousands of children;

"We, the undersigned elected leaders of the Elementary Teachers' Federation of Ontario, call on the government to restore local democracy by removing the

supervisors in the Hamilton-Wentworth, Ottawa-Carleton and Toronto district school boards."

I support them and I will sign this petition.

HYDRO RATES

Mr Ted Arnott (Waterloo-Wellington): I have a petition that's signed by a considerable number of constituents from the Oakville riding, and

I'm sure, Mr Speaker, you'll be acquainted and familiar with the text of this petition. It reads as follows:

"Whereas the province has stated its commitment to ensuring affordable hydro rates for the citizens of Ontario;

"Whereas the province's recent move to deregulate hydro rates and place them within the competitive context of the open market has resulted in actual and high

rate increases, including retroactive ones, for Ontarians, summer heat waves notwithstanding;

"Whereas these hydro rate increases, above and beyond what citizens have paid before deregulation, present a great burden to many young families and those who

are on fixed incomes;

"Whereas the province itself admits that a review of hydro rates is necessary and has inaugurated one, albeit one with an overly lengthy mandate;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Parliament of Ontario as follows:

"That the province be directed to freeze hydro rates to last year's levels immediately during its current review of its deregulation policy and move forward to

protect citizens of Ontario against such exorbitant rate hikes."

I am presenting this petition on behalf of my friend and colleague the Honourable Gary Carr.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): I thank the member. Further petitions? Who didn't have one yesterday? I think the member for York West didn't

have one yesterday.

Mr Mario Sergio (York West): I have another petition addressed to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas electricity bills have skyrocketed under the Harris-Eves government's flawed electricity plan; and

"Whereas some consumers have signed higher fixed-rate contracts with retailers, without adequate consumer protection; and

"Whereas the Harris-Eves government has failed to address electricity supply shortages in Ontario, forcing the purchase of American power at premium prices,

driving up prices still further; and

"Whereas the Harris-Eves government appointed a board of directors for Hydro One that has been paying themselves extravagant salaries, compensation packages

and severances for senior executives; and

"Whereas Hydro One bought 90 municipal utilities, serving about 240,000 people across Ontario, at premium prices and

with borrowed funds. These purchases with borrowed funds have increased Ontario's debt burden; and

"Whereas the Harris-Eves government has added additional fees and taxes on to local electricity distribution companies. These charges have also been passed

along to consumers;

"Therefore

be it resolved that we, the undersigned, demand that the Harris-Eves government take immediate action to ensure that Ontarians have fair and

reasonable prices for the necessary commodity of electricity in Ontario and that the Harris-Eves government and its leader Ernie Eves call a general election on the instability of the energy market

so that Ontarians may have a voice on this issue."

I concur with the content of the petition and those who have signed it, and I'm glad to affix my signature as well.

EDUCATION FUNDING

Ms Marilyn Churley (Toronto-Danforth): I have hundreds of signatures from people who are concerned about international language weekend

classes. They read:

"To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas the Progressive Conservative government promised in 1995 not to cut classroom spending, but has already cut at least $1 billion from our schools and

is now closing many classrooms completely; and

"Whereas international language weekend classes are a needed part of learning for many students in our area; and

"Whereas the Education Act, specifically regulation 285(5), mandates provision of these programs where demand exists;

and

"Whereas the Conservative government funding formula is forcing the Toronto District School Board to cancel these Saturday classes for groups who want this

programming;

"Therefore,

be it resolved that we, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to instruct the Minister of Education to restore meaningful

and flexible funding to the Toronto school boards, to ensure that they are able to continue to accommodate these Saturday international languages classes."

I will affix my signature to this petition because I fully support it.

HYDRO RATES

Mr John O'Toole (Durham): It's my pleasure to respond to my constituents in the riding of Durham in the following manner, first by presenting

this petition:

"Whereas the province of Ontario has experienced record levels of electrical consumption this summer, along with higher than expected generating capacity

shortages to meet the demand; and

"Whereas this has resulted in higher electrical bills for Ontario consumers; and

"Whereas short-term spikes in the cost of power are a particular hardship to persons on fixed incomes and a detriment to business in Ontario;

"Therefore we, the undersigned, request that the government of Ontario act immediately to develop a plan for protecting consumers against excessive short-term

increases in the cost of electricity. We further request that the government of Ontario also review the impact of charges other than the wholesale electrical rates, including the" dreaded "goods

and services tax (GST) and the debt reduction charges appearing on electricity bills of Ontario consumers."

I'm pleased to present this on behalf of my constituents in the riding of Durham, and present it to Lauren, one of the pages here in the Legislature of

Ontario.

COMPETITIVE ELECTRICITY MARKET

Mr Jean-Marc Lalonde (Glengarry-Prescott-Russell): I have a petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario.

"Whereas the Harris-Eves government deregulated electricity on May 1, 2002, in the province of Ontario without it being in their election platform in either

1995 or 1999 and without the mandate of the people of Ontario; and

"Whereas the price of the commodity of electricity has reached outrageous levels, having risen at times over 100% since May 1, 2002, causing Ontarians great

financial hardship; and

"Whereas the Ontario Power Generation (owned by the Ontario government) has applied to the Ontario Energy Board for a 20% reduction in the promised rebate to

Ontarians if the commodity price of electricity rose above 3.8 cents per kilowatt hour; and

"Whereas competition in the electricity market has been scared off by the uncertainty of the Harris-Eves government's attempts to sell off a portion of Hydro

One, leaving electricity commodity prices high; and

"Whereas the Harris-Eves government authorized exorbitant salaries and bonuses in the amount of $2.2 million per annum be paid to the former president of Hydro

One, and in excess of $1.6 million per annum to the vice-president of Ontario Power Generation;

"Therefore

be it resolved that we, the undersigned, demand that the Ernie Eves government take immediate action to ensure that Ontarians have fair prices for

the necessary commodity of electricity in Ontario, and that the Conservative government and its leader, Ernie Eves, call a general election on the instability of the energy market so that Ontarians

may have a voice on this issue."

I affix my signature with pleasure.

ADOPTION DISCLOSURE

Ms Marilyn Churley (Toronto-Danforth): I have more petitions on Bill 77. This one reads:

"To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas in Ontario, adopted adults are denied a right available to non-adoptees, that is, the unrestricted right to identifying information concerning their

family of origin;

"Whereas Canada has ratified standards of civil and human rights in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, the UN Declaration of Human Rights and the UN

Convention on the Rights of the Child;

"Whereas these rights are denied to persons affected by the secrecy provisions in the adoption sections of the Child and Family Services Act and other acts of

the province of Ontario;

"Whereas research in other jurisdictions has demonstrated that disclosure does not cause harm, that access to such information is beneficial to adult adoptees,

adoptive parents and birth parents, and that birth parents rarely requested or were promised anonymity;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislature of Ontario to enact revision of the Child and Family Services Act and other acts to permit adult adoptees

unrestricted access to full personal identifying birth information; permit birth parents, grandparents and siblings access to the adopted person's amended birth certificate when the adopted person

reaches age 18; permit adoptive parents unrestricted access to identifying birth information of their minor children; allow adopted persons and birth relatives to file a contact veto restricting

contact by the searching party; replace mandatory reunion counselling with optional counselling."

I will affix my signature to this petition.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

TIME ALLOCATION

Hon Chris Stockwell (Minister of the Environment, Government House Leader): I move that, pursuant to standing order 46 and notwithstanding any

other standing order or special order of the House relating to Bill 195,

An Act respecting safe drinking water, when Bill 195 is next called as a government order, the Speaker shall put every

question necessary to dispose of the second reading stage of the bill without further debate or amendment and at such time the bill shall be ordered referred to the standing committee on general

government; and

That the vote on second reading may, pursuant to standing order 28(h), be deferred; and

That the standing committee on general government shall be authorized to meet at its next scheduled time for the purpose of consideration of the bill; and

That five days be allotted to hearings and one day allotted to clause-by-clause consideration of the bill; and

That, no later than 4 pm on the day the committee is scheduled for clause-by-clause consideration, those amendments which have not yet been moved shall be

deemed to have been moved, and the Chair of the committee shall interrupt the proceedings and shall, without further debate or amendment, put every question necessary to dispose of all remaining

sections of the bill, and any amendments thereto. The committee shall be authorized to meet beyond its normal hour of adjournment until completion of clause-by-clause consideration. Any division

required shall be deferred until all remaining questions have been put and taken in succession with one -- I repeat, one -- 20-minute waiting period allowed pursuant to standing order 127(a);

and

That the committee shall report the bill to the House not later than the first sessional day that reports from

committees may be received following the completion of clause-by-clause consideration. In the event that the committee fails to report the bill on that day, the bill shall be deemed to be passed by

the committee and shall be deemed to be reported to and received by the House; and

That, upon receiving the report of the standing committee on general government the Speaker shall --

Ms Marilyn Churley (Toronto-Danforth): You should be able to read it by heart -- every day.

Hon Mr Stockwell: That's not my fault; that's your House leader's fault -- the Speaker shall put the question for adoption of the report

forthwith, and at such time the bill shall be ordered for third reading which order may be called on that same day; and

That when the order for third reading is called, the Speaker shall put every question necessary to dispose of this stage of the bill without further debate or

amendment; and

That the vote on third reading may, pursuant to standing order 28(h), be deferred; and

That, in the case of any division relating to any proceedings on the bill, the division bell shall be limited to five minutes.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Mr Stockwell has moved government notice of motion 61. The minister.

Hon Mr Stockwell: The long

preamble basically deals with Bill 195,

An Act respecting safe drinking water. I spent some time, I think, dealing

with the opposition critics, Mr Bradley for St Catharines and Ms Churley for Toronto-Danforth, trying to find an agreement about how and where and when we deal with this bill in a proper and timely

way. Having said that, there was no consensus, to say the least.

Mr Rosario Marchese (Trinity-Spadina): How come?

Hon Mr Stockwell: There are many reasons why there was no consensus, but I think mine is correct.

Mr Marchese: Tell us. Tell us about that.

Hon Mr Stockwell: I'm in the hands of the Legislature here. I don't mind reviewing the -- I'll tell you, I didn't have a lot of problems with

Ms Churley, the member for Toronto-Danforth. I think we were on the same page in trying to find a common theme in how we would get the bill out to committee and as far as public hearings. I know

the Liberals did suggest that we have four meetings -- one in the northwest, one in the northeast, one in the east, one in the west -- and then one in Toronto. Beyond that, I didn't hear a lot from

the NDP about what they wanted to see on travelling and the bill and so on.

Ultimately, after three days' debate and with no clear consensus emerging, which means no position from the House leader for the third party, I had to make a

decision. I tried to make the fairest decision possible. I hope the member for Toronto-Danforth understands that. I've allowed six days of committee, which the committee can determine how they use.

If they prefer to travel on four days or five days, they can. I'm only saying that there must be one day of clause-by-clause.

It also dovetails nicely with Bill 175, which we just referred out the other day, which again is a water bill that probably has a lot of the same stakeholders,

and a lot of the same deputants would appear. On that bill I also agreed to six days of committee hearings, and I've referred them both to the standing committee on general government in order

that, again, we can dovetail the two bills and probably work out some program where we can double up on the public hearings if that's what the choice is.

I have no fear of the public hearings on this bill. I think these are both good bills. As I said during the debate on Bill 195 and Bill 175, I think there may

be disagreements on the nuances and there may be disagreements on the amount in the bills, but I don't think there's a tremendous amount of disagreement on the bill itself. I don't know anyone

who's going to oppose -- I can't say that. I'll be surprised, frankly, if any party opposes Bill 195. I think it's a good bill -- safe drinking water. As my friend from St Catharines says, he

looked for hostages in the bills and he could find none, because we built the bill in order to satisfy the concerns of Justice O'Connor's Walkerton report.

Having said that, the one criticism I've heard is the fact that we don't have our process for developing water management within the source protection part of

the bill. It's a criticism that I've buffered, I suppose, by suggesting that if I'd waited for that part of the bill to be ready, then I couldn't have introduced nutrient management, I could not

have introduced Bill 175, I could not have introduced Bill 195, because that part of the bill will not be ready until early next year. I think, in the best interests of the people of this good

province, all parties would think that adopting nutrient management, adopting Bill 175 and adopting Bill 195 -- it's probably more important to get those in play rather than wait for the source

protection bill that would have followed in the spring.

I was clear and up front with that with respect to -- I see the member for St Catharines is back, and the member for Toronto-Danforth. I was clear and up front

about that. That was the particular predicament I was in. I didn't want to wait; I wanted to get this on the table. I wanted to hear your concerns.

Also, by providing the committee hearing time, I wanted to hear about your amendments. I've heard some talk of amendments; I haven't seen them. I'm interested

in seeing them. I know the member for St Catharines has made a lot of noises about providing amendments to the committee. I can only presume he's beavering away on these late into the night, and I

will see a flurry of amendments coming forward.

Mr Dave Levac (Brant): Beavering?

Hon Mr Stockwell: Beavering -- that's just another way of saying he's working hard. I don't think anyone would allege that the member for St

Catharines doesn't appear to work hard.

I want to just say that this is a great opportunity for the members opposite, if they do truthfully have amendments, to

put them forward.

The criticism of the bill -- and I listened carefully to the member for Toronto-Danforth and I listened carefully to the member for St Catharines. They were

speaking extemporaneously very often in their comments, but when they focused in on the bill itself, I didn't hear a lot of specific recommendations --

Ms Churley: I gave specifics.

Hon Mr Stockwell: Yes, let me finish -- outside of the groundwater protection stuff.

Ms Churley: No, I did.

Hon Mr Stockwell: Now, listen, the member for Toronto-Danforth -- and I don't want to challenge your thinking, OK? I will review the notes

again and see if we have specifics. I'm going to be very interested in seeing the amendments offered up by the member for Toronto-Danforth. I'm going to be viewing those with a critical eye,

because I do want to accept amendments that I think can make the bill better. I don't want to have you file 50 amendments and know that 27 or 28 are so politically motivated that there's no value

to them.

I am truthfully being apolitical on this one. I want to try to make the bill better.

Interjection.

Hon Mr Stockwell: I know the member for Sault Ste Marie guffaws, but I will add that the entire buildup to this bill -- I say to the member

for Sault Ste Marie, we did consult with the member for Toronto-Danforth; we did provide her with an advance copy of the bill. We did talk to her. The staff at the Ministry of the Environment did

sit down and talk to her and then briefed her and explained things about the bill and gave her advance notice of the bill. I did my best to try to brief the two members opposite during the briefing

process beforehand.

In my opinion, excluding the source protection bit they spoke of, I don't think you're going to vote against this bill. You look fine, Marilyn; what are you

doing that for? You don't need to, in my opinion. Besides the source protection part, I don't think there's any particularly difficult parts of this bill that you couldn't support. I say to the

member -- it used to be Fort York. Where's he from now?

Mr Marchese: Trinity-Spadina. Chris, how could you forget?

Hon Mr Stockwell: Trinity-Spadina. I know, I have a short memory.

I say to the member for Trinity-Spadina and to the member for Sault Ste Marie as well, if you seriously have some legitimate concerns about this legislation,

bring them on, bring them forward. I will note that it wasn't as rancorous and difficult a debate through this House as I expected. In fact, we didn't even use the full three days in debate. I'm

not casting aspersions on anyone, but I think it's probably because I'm not sure there is this vehement opposition to the bill that I think they thought could have been there had this bill not been

drafted in the way it was drafted.

I reviewed the notes on the speech made by the member for St Catharines and he tended to wander somewhat in some of his comments. He spoke about many issues

where I'm not sure how they related to safe drinking water, but invariably he had the Speaker's very clear attention and he somehow wove a lot of these conversations back to safe drinking water,

which he can do so ably and many members of this House can't. That's a compliment, I might add, because I've never seen anyone who has the ability to actually talk about health care, policing and

all kinds of things.

Mr Marchese: Because he knows.

Hon Mr Stockwell: He knows. He gets it all right back to safe drinking water, which is really quite astounding. I think all members in this

House will agree with me, with what they say: "When the member for St Catharines gets up to speak, everybody listens." It may be a small crowd, but everybody listens. I'll be curious to see -- I'm

not sure if Mr Bradley will be speaking to this time allocation motion today, but I don't want to pretend I will be shocked if he does.

Mr Marchese: He's ignoring you.

Hon Mr Stockwell: I noticed. He does that when I speak, but he wants my enraptured attention any time he's up talking about anything to do

with water.

Mr Levac: He's beaverishly working away.

Hon Mr Stockwell: Beaverishly.

Not to put too fine a point on it and to create a sense of camaraderie, of collegiality in this Legislature, I think we all agree that as to the Walkerton

disaster, the terrible events that led to Walkerton, what grew out of that was Justice O'Connor's recommendations. I have done my best, as a good member of this House, as an honourable member, as

all members are, to try to follow

chapter and verse the recommendations put forward by Justice O'Connor. I can accept some criticism that I haven't worked fast enough, but I've worked as fast as I

can and delivered bills that I think tend to be somewhat complicated in a very short period of time.

When you consider the fact that it was sometime in May -- or June, I forget exactly -- that we received Justice O'Connor's second report and had 93 separate

recommendations, that we have now delivered a bill to this Legislature that adopts and puts into place 50 of the 93 recommendations, that another eight or nine are actually in the hopper being done

-- we didn't need legislative authority to do so -- and that we're planning on delivering the rest of them in the spring, I think everyone would agree that is what you would classify as a fairly

quick tempo to deal with the very comprehensive report Justice O'Connor did.

I know there are members of my caucus who would like to speak to this and I don't want to steal too much of their time, but in closing, I will listen very

carefully to the comments made by the members opposite. I'm sorry this has to be a time allocation. I, candidly, am very sorry it's a time allocation.

Mr Bruce Crozier (Essex): Then don't do it.

Hon Mr Stockwell: I know the member opposite says, "Don't do it." There's a pragmatic reality I have to deal with. Unless I'm prepared to move

a time allocation motion on this bill, I don't think I'll be able to pass this bill before December 12. I can't believe anyone would think not passing the Safe Drinking Water Act would be to the

benefit of the people of Ontario. Ultimately, I did my best to try and negotiate an agreement between all three parties. I did my best. At the last meeting I said to the House leaders of both

parties, "What do you want? Tell me what you want with respect to committee hearings on this bill. Tell me what you want. I'll agree to it." They wouldn't tell me.

Mr Crozier: They?

Hon Mr Stockwell: Well, I shouldn't say "they." I don't want to name names, but one of them wouldn't tell me. So unless I can get some consent

motion to deal with the bill through committee and back to the House, I am left with no alternative than to time-allocate a very important bill like safe drinking water.

Mr Levac: You had a choice.

Hon Mr Stockwell: Member for Brant, I can only say to you that you should take some time and read the standing orders -- I'm not lecturing;

I'm just saying -- and if you can find any mechanism in the standing orders that would have provided passage of this bill by December 12 without co-operation from both parties, then I'm open to

hearing your suggestions. But I don't know of it, and I've spent some time in this place -- 12 years. I spent three years as the Speaker. I've spent a number of years as House leader for the

government side. I have a fairly good working knowledge of the standing orders.

Mr Levac: Change them.

Hon Mr Stockwell: Listen, I don't even want to go toward changing the standing orders. My good friend Bradley would blow a gasket, I'm sure,

if there was any talk of changing the standing orders. He would implode