Manitoba Hansard — 27 January 1981 (Sitting 14A, 31st Legislature, 5th Session)

31-5-14a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, 9 February, 1981 Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. Harry E. Graham (Birtle Russell): Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions ... PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. GERALD W. J. MERCIER (Osborne): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the first report of the Committee on Rules of the House. MR. CLERK: Your Standing Committee on the Rules of the House beg leave to present the following as their First Report.

Your Committee met on Tuesday, January 27, 1981 at 10:00 a.m. in Room 255 Legislative Building with all members present. The Chairman read a letter from Robert Foskett, member of the Legislative Television Consortium in which permission was requested to conduct an experiment aimed at improving the existing lighting system to the Chamber. Mr. Foskett recommended the use of long life metal halide luminaries, permanently installed at ceiling height in the arches at an estimated cost of five to six thousand dollars. The CBC, according to Mr.

Foskett had offered to temporarily light the Chamber during the regular televising of the Question Period to allow evaluation of the improved lighting. Your Committee approved of the experiment and, if it proves successful to the Committee, recommends to the Minister of Government Services that the expenditure of funds to provide for a permanent installation be made.

On the matter of the taking of still photographs by the printed media, your Committee recommends that the taKing of still photographs from the Press Gallery be permitted, that no limit be placed on the number of cameras permitted and that sharing of photographs not be required. Your Committee recommends that Rule 33(2) be amended whereby a leader of a recognized political party could, by prior notice to the Speaker, designate a member of his party to speak for him. It is recommended that the existing Rule be modified to clarify the intent.

Your Committee recommends that the reference contained in Rule 88(6) to "24 hours" be deleted and the words "one sitting" substituted. It is also recommended that amendments to Bills proposed at the Report Stage not be subject to amendment and the Rules be amended accordingly. Your Committee also recommends the repeal of Rule 93(

e) by which the Clerk of the House must, personally, attend each meeting of the Standing Committee on the Rules of the House. It is recommended that Item 18 of the 1971 Report of the Rules Committee be repealed. It is suggested that transcripts of all Committee meetings should be made unless the appropriate Committee decides to the contrary in keeping with the present trend whereby transcripts are expected. Your Committee recommends the following rule changes: That the Rules, Orders and Forms of Proceeding of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba be amended (

a) by striking out sub-rule 33(2) and substituting therefor the following sub-rule: Designation of substitute. 33(2) The leader of the government, the leader of the opposition or a leader of a recognized opposition party may each designate one member to speak in a debate for such period as he desires if (

a) the leader of the government, the leader of the opposition or the leader of the recognized opposition party has given notice of the designation to the Speaker not later than 1 hour before the sitting of the House at which the member speaks in that debate; and (

a) the leader of the government, the leader of the opposition or the leader of the recognized opposition party, whoever has given the notice, has not previously spoken in the debate for more than 40 minutes; and if the member designated speaks in the debate, the leader of the government, tha leader of the opposition or the leader of the recognized opposition party, whoever has given notice of the designation, shall not speak in that debate for more than 40 minutes. (

b) by striking out sub-rule 88(6) and substituting therefor the following sub-rule: Requests for deferment of consideration of amendment. 88(6) Where written notice of a motion to amend, delete, insert or restore any clause or provision in a Bill is given prior to the consideration of the Report Stage of the Bill, and the Order of the Day for consideration of the Report Stage of the Bill is called before the end of the first sitting of the House alter the notice is given, any member may request that the consideration of the Report Stage of the Bill be deferred until after the end of the first sitting of the House alter the notice is given and, unless the House by vote, unanimous except for that member, refuses the request, the consideration of the Report Stage of the Bill shall be deferred until after the end of the first sitting of the House after the notice is given; but if the consideration of the Report Stage of the Bill is deferred once under this Rule, the consideration of the Report Stage shall not again be deferred, except by resolution of the House. (

c) by striking out sub-rule 88(8) and substituting therefor the following sub-rule: Debate on amendments. 88(8) When the Order of the Day for the consideration of the Report Stage of a Bill is called, any amendment of which notice has been given in 393

Monday, 9 February, 1981 accordance with sub-rule (5) is open to debate but no motion to amend the amendment shall be accepted except by resolution of the House; and (

d) by sinking out clause (

e) of Rule 93. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Natural Resources that the report of the committee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. KEN MacMASTER (Thompson): Mr. Speaker. I ask that the final report on the Fairlane fire by the Building Standards Board be tabled. I have sent copies to the Clerk's offfice for circulization. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . INTRODUCTION OF BILLS MR. WARREN STEEN (Crescentwood) introduced Bill No. 16.

An Act respecting the Montreal Trust Company and the Montreal Trust Company of Canada. NON-POLITICAL STATEMENT MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Cultural Affairs. HON. NORMA L. PRICE (Assiniboia): Mr. Speaker, may I have permission to make a non-political statement? (Agreed) It is my pleasure to announce that three Manitoba artists have won the international prize for snow sculpturing at the Quebec Winter Carnival. Judging on the competition took place yesterday in Quebec City.

The artists are Don Berg, an illustrator with Travel Manitoba, Ral Brard, an artist with the Department of Health, and Miguel Joyal, a wood sculptor who is working this year with the Festival de Voyageur. The team was co-sponsored by my department and the Department of Economic Development and Tourism and it was hosted in Quebec City by the Quebec Winter Carnival. Our team actually tied for first place with Morocco and competed against 12 teams from ten other countries. The Manitobans first did a sculpture illustrating the book.

"Where Nests the Water Hen" by Manitoba born author Gabrielle Roy and this piece won the national award. By the win they become the official Canadian national team. Their winning international entry was taken from The Legend of the White Horse, a romantic Manitoba Indian tale involving a young couple and a beautiful white horse.

I understand this piece of sculpture, composed of two horses and the young couple took from Wednesday until Saturday of last week to complete and that the art1sts worked practically around the clock. i am sure that the members of this House are as proud as we are of these Manitoba artists. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. RUSSELL DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I could make a non-political response or comment. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Has the honourable member leave? (Agreed) The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, I'm delighted at the kindness of the government in this regard, and I would like to join with the Minister in congratulating those particular Manitoba artists on their accomplishment. It's well known, Mr. Speaker, that Manitobans have some of the finest painters and sculptors in the country and I think that we must attempt to make further advancement in the support of the arts. I point with some pride to the record of our administration which had a program ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please.

The honourable member was given leave to make a non political statement and I would hope that he stayed within the bounds that he himself had asked when he asked special permission of the House. (lnterjection)- The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, just on the point of order. I may have been skating on thin ice but I didn't identify the previous administration. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. HOWARD PAWLEY (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister responsible for Economic Development.

This past weekend statistics were released by Slats Canada indicating that the increase by way of volume sales in Manitoba's departmental sales stores were such that the volume of goods being sold December 1980 were likely not greater than the volume of goods sold in 1973. In view of the obvious slump as indicated by way of these retail sales in Manitoba, can the Minister advise what action is anticipated by way of his department on behalf of the government in order to stimulate retail sales, particularly departmental sales, in the Province of Manitoba? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Economic Development. HON. J. FRANK JOHNSTON (Sturgeon Creek): Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition mentions that they were released over the weekend and I was at Bristol Aircraft this morning where they were receiving a plaque for the marvellous work they do in the aerospace industry, and I haven't as yet seen the statistics and I really don't want to comment on them Lntil I have had the chance to review them. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I would ask if the Minister would agree then in reviewing the statistics if he would advise why it is that the BC departmental stores increased by 23 percent, December 1980 over December 1979; Alberta 19 percent; Saskatchewan 17 percent . 394

Monday, 9 February, 1981 MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I suggest to the honourable member that questions of agreement are hardly questions that are soliciting information. If the honourable member wishes to solicit information that's a different matter, but questions of agreement hardly fall within the realm of the question period. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition care to rephrase his question? MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I regret, if indeed I indicated to you or to the House that I was asking for agreement as to the figures.

I asked the Minister if he would review the figures in question for a purpose which I was coming to. I was not asking the Minister to concur or to agree with the figures in question - the Maritime increase of some 14 percent; Quebec 7.1 percent; Ontario 10. some percent; Manitoba 5.8 percent. If the Minister would advise in view of the record advertising and other methods being used by his department, just what is the factor which accounts for the sluggish growth for departmental stores in Manitoba in relationship to all other parts of Canada? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON.

BRIAN RANSOM (Souris-Killarney): Mr. Speaker, perhaps I could fill some of the information in for the Honourable Leader of the Opposition, as he seeks to find out more about retail sales. He is perhaps not aware that only 15 percent of Manitoba's retail sales take place through department stores. That is not necessarily the same ratio that takes place elsewhere. I can also advise that the first 11 months of information for 1980 on total retail sales within the province and across the country would indicate that Manitoba ranks about fifth. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I would ask the Minister if he would review the information weekly bulletin which I understand is the most recent bulletin out indicating that Newfoundland and Manitoba alone record down fractionally reported retail sales in Manitoba. I would like to ask the Minister, since he's taken this opportunity to participate in the question and answer period, if he intends to move up the date of the presentation of his budget in view of the fact that there is continued stagnation, sluggishness, pertaining to retail sales, departmental sales in the Province of Manitoba - much of that, by the way, Mr.

Speaker, being demonstrated by the layoffs which are presently under way in Eaton's. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member refers to a sluggish situation in the economy in Manitoba. We should draw the honourable member's attention to the situation that prevails across this country and in the United States and elsewhere in the western world especially.

Our government has shown that we are indeed capable managers in getting our act together in an earlier period of time than was previously the case and I would say that it would not be unlikely that accordingly a budget might be presented earlier than normal. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR. LAURENT L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, a question to the same Minister, in view of their talking about getting the act together.

In view of the statement made approximately a year ago following the Crosbie budget, the statement made by the Premier of this province that he agreed, and in fact the budget didn't go far enough and he still preached restraint; and also in view of the fact that a few days after, following the 18th of February the policy was abandoned, can the Minister tell us what caused this radical change of getting away from their restraint?

Is it a question because there was more inflation in Manitoba since then, is it because the dollar is devaluated more, is it because there is more bankruptcy; is it because there is more people out of work, or is it because the per capita debt is larger than ever; is it because we've had a larger deficit? Could the Minister tell us why this policy of restraint has been abandoned by the government? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. RANSOM: The course of action which we are now pursuing, Mr.

Speaker, we are able to pursue now because we have been able to bring under control the ungodly mess that was left us ... MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR. DESJARDINS: To the same Minister then, Mr. Speaker. Should we interpret the remarks of the First Minister at this time, and I want to quote him, "that the Canadians have to learn how to take their medicine sooner or later" - does that mean a little later, for instance after an election; is that the intent of the government? MR. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker, I'm sure that if the honourable member wishes to seek information from the First Minister he can ask the First Minister directly when he returns. Any comment that I would make, I'm sure would not alter the honourable member's opinion in that regard. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface with a final supplementary. MR. DESJARDINS: I would like to thank the Minister if he could pass it on to his First Minister, and while he's doing that he can ask the First Minister also and I'm sure I'll get the reply.

The First Minister at the time dealing with the people who said that by conscience they couldn't vote for that, said that they spell conscience "gallup". I wonder if this new spelling of conscience is also accepted by the First Minister. Would you please ask your leader then. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker I find it odd to be lectured on conscience by the Member for St. Boniface. 395

Monday, 9 February, 1981 MR. DESJARDINS: Fine. Then maybe we'll have an answer and we'll find out why you abandoned the MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member tor Rossmere. MR. VIC SCHROEDER (Rossmere): Yes, Mr. Speaker I have a question for the Minister of Education. Recently he had indicated that there would be an increase of $70 million. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please, Order please. I find it somewhat difficult to hear the questions being proposed by the Honourable Member for Rossmere. I would ask the indulgence of the Members of the House for the courtesy to hear the Member for Rossmere. MR.

SCHROEDER: Thank you Mr Speaker I was having difficulty hearing myself think. Question to the Minister of Education. Could he tell the House how much, it any, of the $70 million in increase in public school financing he recently announced, how much of that will be coming from increased property taxes in the Province of Manitoba? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. MR. COSENS: Mr. Speaker, if I understand the honourable member's question correctly the 70 million comes out of provincial revenues. That is the answer to his question. From provincial revenues, not from property tax at all. MR.

SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary to the Minister of Education. Is he then saying that the increase from 5 to something like 35 mills on residential and from somewhere around 35 to 70 on business properties tor the provincial portion of property taxes will not increase the amount of property taxes paid by the property taxpayer into the provincial portion of the calculation? MR. COSENS: Mr. Speaker I'm sure the honourable member understands that there are two aspects to property taxation. One being what we understood as the old foundation levy and the other one being special levy.

It's quite true that under this new program the foundation levy does increase across the province; the fact it's therein that we find the equalization principle in body. But the bottom line, Mr. Speaker. in answer to the honourable member's question. is that the special levy will decrease quite dramatically. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rossmere with a final supplementary. MR. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Could the Minister of Education then advise the House as to the amount recovered by the province in the last year on the education levy and the amount expected to be recovered by the province in that same levy under the new calculations in the next year, that is in the year 1981? MR. COSENS: Mr. Speaker, I believe those particular figures were contained in the background paper that I sent out to all members at the time I announced the plan. If there are some of the figures that the honourable member requires perhaps he can write his request down; I'd be very pleased to provide him with those particular figures.

MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of Cultural Affairs and ask her if she can report on the success to date on the efforts of the committee that she established to raise funds from the private sector. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Cultural Affairs. MRS. PRICE: Mr. Speaker, two committees have been formed, one for a deficit retirement committee, it is headed up by Mr. Alan Sweatman and Mr.

Harold Buckwald, two very prominent citizens in Winnipeg, with a number of other community-minded people, and also a sustaining committee has been formed under the leadership of Mr. Bill Draper. They have had several meetings. As you know, between the three levels of government we have been able to give some $550,000 to the Symphony towards the deficit reduction and it is looking very good as far as the response from the private sector is concerned, both corporate and the individuals. MR. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, again on the Symphony's problems.

In view of a $1 million deficit which was projected as of last December and in view of what the Minister just said, I wonder whether she could clarify whether a single penny has been raised by any of these committees established. I wonder if she could indicate how much money has been raised, because my impression is little or none. And secondly, can she indicate what target has been set for private fund raising? MRS. PRICE: Mr. Speaker, the goal for the retirement of the debt is I guess what is left of the debt which would be some $350 to $400,000.

The one for the sustaining committee is $206,000, I believe it is, and both are very confident that their goals will be reached this year. MR. DOERN: I wonder, Mr. Speaker, if the Minister could also indicate when the Winnipeg Symphony Orchestra will be announcing the hiring of their new conductor. MRS. PRICE: Mr. Speaker, for the rest of the year there is a series of visiting conductors. There hasn't been any announcement given to me at this point although the new board has been selected.

They are having their first meeting tonight and then after they get running smoothly then the board of trustees will settle back and they will take over the running of the orchestra. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MRS. JUNE WESTBURY (Fort Rouge): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Honourable Minister of Community Services. Would the Minister please 396

Monday, 9 February, 1981 tell the House whether personal care homes have been instructed to set their thermostats below 70 degrees? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Services. HON. GEORGE MINAKER (St. James): Mr. Speaker, I would suggest the honourable member refer that question to the Minister of Health. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. R. (Bud) SHERMAN (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker. as far as I know the answer to that question is an unequivocal no. MRS. WESTBURY: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the Minister would investigate any cases reported to him where the thermostats are set below 70 degrees, in view of the fact that specialists in the area of hypothermia, specialists in the United States, I understand, consider that it's very dangerous for people under 65 years of age to be kept in residences where the temperature is allowed to fall below 65, would he investigate this possibility and perhaps issue directions to the personal care homes to this effect, Mr. Speaker. MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I want to assure The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge that the operators and the staffs of our personal care homes are very aware of the physical conditions of their residents in their care and very aware of the medical and physical kinds of regulations and practices that should be applied. I have had no such complaints. The member has referred to investigating complaints that have come to me, but no complaints have come to me. I would suggest that well-meaning as it may be, the question emanates from pure speculation. MRS. WESTBURY: Well, Mr.

Speaker, there are always these patronizing adjectives such as simplistic and well-meaning, however, I think we're all trying to do a job here and I'm one of those that is trying to do a job here. Mr. Speaker, would the Minister then advise the House - I was going to ask him this privately but, in view of the kind of answers I get, I will ask it publicly - is he interested in the fact that patients have been charged for warm pyjamas when the thermostats were turned down below 70 degrees? They have had to pay for them themselves out of their own private money. This may be amusing to the Minister of Agriculture ...

MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I don't know how many times I have to advise members of the Chamber that the question period is a period for seeking information, not for providing it. Would the honourable member care to ask a question? MRS. WESTBURY: I beg your pardon. I was under the impression that I had asked a question about patients being made to pay for their own warm pyjamas as a result of the thermometers being turned down below 70 degrees, Mr. Speaker. MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I must say that this question is reminiscent of some other highly, wildly speculative questions in the area of health that stretch back some years in terms of experience in this Chamber. I reject the implications in the honourable member's statement, I dismiss them as emanating from the realm of pure speculation. Of course, since she has raised them, she's a member of this House, I will cause a check to be run on the situation. But I find the question, both questions, particular offensive, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rossmere. MR. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Cultural Affairs. Could she advise as to whether there is any moneys still owing by the provincial government to Interlake Festival Incorporation as a result of its 1980 season in Gimli? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Cultural Affairs. MRS. PRICE: No, there isn't, Mr. Speaker. MR. SCHROEDER: Yes, Mr. Speaker, a further question to the Minister of Cultural Affairs. Were there any undertakings by the province to pay funds to that Festival in the event that it successfully concluded its 1980 season? MRS.

PRICE: It didn't successfully conclude its 1980 season, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that you suggested to me that a private resolution could be anticipating, I wonder if I could at this time ask the House Leader if it is the intention of the government of bringing a resolution soon dealing with separatism? I would ask the Minister if we should expect a composite resolution dealing with all kinds of things or could we have a clear-cut resolution dealing with the separatism and as soon as possible because it's quite urgent. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I think the Throne Speech speaks for itself. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, I thought that I was only asking the co-operation of the Minister to let us know. I know what the Throne Speech says. It talks about unity, it has the word unity. I'll repeat my question because I'm sure that the Minister would want to co-operate. You suggest. Sir, that I should wait with my resolution. I'm ready to do that. But I would hope, in view of the fact there are so many people that are trying to destroy this country at this time in preaching separatism.

I would hope that this government will agree. or at least inform me so I can go ahead with my resolution, seeking the complete co-operation and endorsement of this House fighting separatism and trying to stop it before it gets started. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker. I can assure the Member for St. Boniface that it is not this 397

Monday, 9 February, 1981 government that is trying to divide this country. Mr. Speaker, there will be a resolution presented to this Legislature, I would expect, at the outset, within ten days. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Churchill. MR. JAY COWAN: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Labour and I'd ask the Minister if he can take this opportunity to update members on this side of the House, as well as the general public, as to when we can expect the review of the Workers Compensation procedures to be placed before the House, a review which was promised to us as of last fall and has yet to be forthcoming from the Minister's department. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. MacMASTER: Mr.

Speaker, the members of that review committee have informed me that within the next short period of time, and I would guess at two to three weeks to a month, that report will be printed and in my hands and distributed. MR. COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

A supplementary to the Minister while speaking of reports, I would ask the Minister if he can indicate what action his department is taking in regard to following up on the recommendations of the Wright Committee on Mine Safety in the Province of Manitoba and when we can expect some action on those many recommendations which were forwarded to the Minister approximately one year ago at this time? MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Speaker, that entire mine review of safety in the mines took longer than I think a lot of us had hoped it would.

You may recall that we were in office approximately a year when we instituted the first inquiry into workplace safety in the mines that was ever held in the history of this province. It was delayed somewhat, the original review, by the unfortunate accident at a Toronto Airport where the steelworker representative, that the steelworkers had brought in from Ontario, was injured and that held up the original part.

The Claude Wright Report, as its called, was brought down. it was issued to myself, tabled, everybody was made aware of it, our provincial government hosted a Mines Safety Conference in Flin Flon. where it was decided by the union members. steelworkers. and the mining industry, they would form a joint committee to suggest to government how best those recommendations should be implemented. That committee has been meeting, and I'm guessing at the number of times, but I suspect. if I remember right, it was October, November.

December. a couple of meetings in January, I understand they have approximately three meetings slated for this month. I further understand that they didn't want to bring in a recommendation or two or three or half a dozen or a dozen at a time, they wanted to totally review the report and then bring in a total report to myself, going on to the Mintster of Mines. I really think, Mr. Speaker. that the union people and the industrialists are quite capable of putting that report together and bringing it forward to me and I don't wish to tell them how to run their business. MR. COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Minister avoided the question which was can he give us some indication of when we can expect those recommendations to come forward so that action will be finally taken on the report. I only need refer the Minister to his quick action on other reports and have commended him for that action and would hope that he would apply that lesson as well to this very important report which has been outstanding for some time now and there has been no movement on the part of government.

I therefore ask the Minister if he can indicate when it is that he expects, as he has promised to do in this House, to move the mines inspectorate to under the jurisdiction of the Workplace Safety and Health Branch, a recommendation of that report which was made quite blatantly so within the recommendations, an area which has been awaiting some action from the Minister for quite some time now? When does he expect to make that very rudimentary but important change in the location of the mines inspectorate as he has promised this House on numerous occasions? MR. MacMASTER: Mr.

Speaker, I appreciate the Member for Churchill's concern over safety in the mines. It's just too bad it hadn't been shared by the members opposite when they were in government when they did absolutely nothing about looking at mine safety when they were in government. I appreciate the concern of the Member for Churchill. It's recognized.

The particular recommendation that he is talking about is one of 70 some odd contained within that report and it was unanimously agreed by the union people and by the industrialists and us, by government, when we were at that conference in Flin Flon that this committee would be established, names were submitted by both industry and unions. They were appointed. They have been meeting and the one particular recommendation the member is talking about is one of many that will be forthcoming. I don't remember concurring or saying that any one of them would be acted on either individually, promptly or whatever.

I was waiting for the recommendations from that particular body, and as I say, I emphasize, it was unanimously agreed by the unions and the industrialists that that's the way they'd handle it. I am prepared to let them handle it in their own way. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon East. MR. LEONARD S. EVANS (Brandon East): Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to address a question to the Deputy Premier and ask the Deputy Premier, in as much as spending estimates are up 14.6 percent for the 1981-82 fiscal year, can the Honourable Deputy Premier indicate to the House v1hat approximately will be the increase in the size of the Civil Service as measured by staff man years, if that's possible at this time? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Energy. HON. DONALD W. CRAIK (Riel): Mr. Speaker, the answer to that will have to come out of the 398

Monday, 9 February, 1981 examination of the Estimates. I can probably indicate to him I don't think there are substantial changes in the size of the public payroll associated with the estimates that are before the House now. The Minister of Finance indicated a couple of days ago that the number in 1981-82 were still in excess of 1,300 fewer than were under the previous government. MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, is the honourable ... yes, I'm talking about staff man years, Mr. Speaker, as presented to us in the estimates. Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask this as a supplement.

We are now in the Department of Economic Development and Tourism and the Minister advised us that the staff has increased there by 18 SMY's. It's gone up from 221 to 239, which is an increase of about between eight and nine percent. I was wondering therefore, Mr. Speaker, whether this is a pattern that we might see throughout the Civil Service now, that spending increases are expected or whether this is an exception. An eight to nine percent increase in the size of the civil service in one department, is this an exception or is this going to be a pattern that we'll see in SMY's in the next year? MR. CRAIK: Mr.

Speaker, in departments where there are Canada/Manitoba agreements that are under way or getting under way you will find some increases in the SMY count. The pattern that you see in Economic Development is not representative of the pattern overall in the government. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. George. MR. BILLIE URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I direct this question to the Minister of Agriculture and ask him whether he is now prepared to announce some assistance program to hog producers in the Province of Manitoba as they are continuing to face drastically reduced incomes in terms of market prices?

MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. DOWNEY: Not at this particular time, Mr. Speaker. MR. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I ask the Minister how long does he expect hog producers to continue in operation having to face the disastrously low prices that they have in excess of one year already? MR. DOWNEY: I appreciate the difficulty, Mr. Speaker, that the livestock producers are having this particular year with the higher costs of interest and other operating expenses.

We have looked at it over the past year and in fact saw a substantial price increase in returns to producers about the first of July when they went up to the low 70 dollars per 100. It's unfortunate the market has slipped back to the low sixties but it is my understanding at the end of last week there was again evidence of an increase in price. I haven't had an opportunity today to assess the market but we will be looking at the industry as a whole and if there is anything to announce, if and when, it will be announced in this Chamber. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Speaker, could the Minister explain the reasons for approximately 1,500 to 2,000 hogs having to be shipped outside the province, as they are not being able to be processed in the Province of Manitoba, and as well, whether or not there are any funds, since the Minister indicated that his drought assistance program was underspent by some $20 million earlier in the year, whether or not those funds could be channelled for assistance to producers in the province? MR. DOWNEY: I would suspect, Mr. Speaker, that the hogs being shipped out of the province are being done so to obtain higher returns for the producers.

It is unfortunate that we had the closing of a packing plant last year in the Province of Manitoba, one that was largely due to the fact that they were enjoying the hog kill from Saskatchewan, which back in 1973 was restricted from coming into Manitoba by an action of the last government. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Wellington. MR. BRIAN CORRIN (Wellington): Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Minister responsible for MHRC whether he can indicate why the government chose to make SAFER assistance contingent on pension income. In this regard, Mr.

Speaker, for your benefit and the benefit of other members, it is our understanding that in order to receive such allowances it is necessary that a recipient prove if he is between the ages of 55 and 65 that some 50 percent or more of his income derives from this source; if over 65 necessary to prove that he or she has a pension benefit. Could we ask why? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. HON. GARY FILMON (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I'll take that question as notice. MR. CORRIN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Honourable Minister a further supplementary question.

Since many persons between the ages of 55 and 65, particularly those who are at or near the minimum wage, Mr. Speaker, do not have pension benefits making up 50 percent of their meager income, we would ask whether it's the government's intention to accord them with parity with those other poor people who do? Will the government assist the working poor of this province and provide equality as between themselves and the other poor in the province? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. MR. FILMON: Mr. Speaker I'll take that as notice as well. MR. CORRIN: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, with respect to senior citizens in this program, we would ask whether the government will amend the SAFER eligibility criteria in order to afford new Canadians who have not been in Canada more then ten years since coming from their country of origin, and therefore, do not qualify for our Old Age Pension, will he 399

Monday, 9 February, 1981 consider with his government amending the eligibility criteria so that these senior citizens can share in the Shelter Allowance Benefits provided by the government? I note, Mr. Speaker just as for clarity and as clearly establishing the record that I understand that many such new Canadians come from countries where they do not have any pension benefits at all, countries such as the Phillipines and others and therefore these people are not currently accorded any SAFER allowances at all. MR. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, as the Member knows I am rather new to my portfolio and because I know that he would want a very full and complete answer, I would prefer to take this question, as well as, notice and bring back the answers to all three. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. John. MR. SAUL CHERNIACK (St. Johns): Thank you Mr. Speaker.

I'd like to ask the Minister for Social Services whether there are persons now entitled to receive allowances under The Blind Persons' Allowances Act or The Disabled Persons' Allowances Act who have not received, in February, the moneys, the allowance equivalent to that which they received in January last? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Services MR. MINAKER: Mr. Speaker I'll have to take that as notice. however, I can assure the honourable member that when the Bill is approved he'll see that its retroactive so that they will received that amounts of money back to February 1 of 1981. MR.

CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that it is obviously a retroactive legislation that is being proposed by the Honourable Minister, may I ask the Minister whether there are people today who have not received moneys which the Minister thinks they ought to have and which therefore will be denied that money until this legislation is passed? MR. MINAKER: Mr. Speaker, as I indicated to the honourable member I will take that as notice. If the honourable member would like to know the numbers of people involved, there are 34 people who are disabled and 19 people who are blind who are affected.

The offer was made to those particular cit1zens who qualify for social allowance if they would go onto the social allowance rolls, those that have accepted will be paid; those that have refused to go onto the Social Allowance Assistance would come under this particular Act. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for see that they are drowning me out and yet I have the microphone.

I wanted to ask the Minister if he can confirm or indicate how many tens of thousands of dollars were wasted on this system, was it $70,000 or can he tell us how much we've spent to bring in a system which is worse then the one that we had previously? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Government Services. HON. WARNER H. JORGENSON (Morris): Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. Apparently my Honourable Friend has not recognized the advantages of the present system.

First of all, they were brought in to enable honourable members to receive what they wanted to hear and I notice my honourable friend never uses the ear plugs that were brought into the system for that very purpose. If he doesn't want to use them then the quality of his reception is going to be somewhat impaired. I suggest he learn to use them because I don't know of any other Legislature that does not have this kind of system. It was introduced into the House of Commons a number of years ago.

The first purpose of introducing it into the House of Commons was to provide for the simultaneous translation which may occur in this legislature. So his argument and his suggestion that money was wasted installing this system is pure bunk because that's not the case. If my honourable friend wants to get quality of reception, all he has to use is the device that is provided for him and he'll get the reception at the level that he wants it, when he wants it, and when he doesn't want it. All he has to do if he doesn't like it he can take the earphone off.

But if my good friend has watched the question period in the House of Commons he will note that there are other uses for the earphone. You can twirl them around like this, you can stretch them out like this from time to time and there are so many things that you can do to keep your hands busy while you are speaking and I would suggest that my honourable friend learn to use the system that is provided because it is provided for a purpose. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Time for question period having expired we'll proceed with orders of the day. ORDERS OF THE DAY Elmwood. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House MR. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a quest1on to the Minister of Government Services concerning the poor quality of sound in this Chamber whereby hecklers are often heard above speakers and earphones are now necessary for the first time in Manitoba history. In fact, Mr. Speaker, the Ministers are now confirming my comments since they can't hear my remarks Mr. Speaker, you can Leader. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Natural Resources that Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and carried 400

Monday, 9 February, 1981 CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPL V - ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND TOURISM MR. MORRIS McGREGOR (Virden), Chairman: I call the Committee to order. We're on page 42, 1.(dX1) pass; 1.(dX2) pass. The Honourable Member for Brandon East. MR. EVANS: As a matter of information, Mr. Chairman, I was wondering whether the Minister has any answers for some of the questions we asked. I thought some of them were taken as notice. I don't have a list here, but I wonder if he had any answers now. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Chairman, I'll table these with the committee, they are the answers to, I believe, the provision for travel, travel ratios in the province and out of province, out of province travel, and private vehicle mileage expenditures. Those were the questions that were asked of me and the answers are here if you'd like the list. MR. EVANS: For clarification then, did we pass (

d) last time or are we still on (d)? MR. JOHNSTON: Did we pass (d)? MR. CHAIRMAN: declared 1.(d)(1), 1.(d)(2) passed. It wasn't signed so I assume we're on it. MR. EVANS: I just have one question on that area. I could ask it under the Bureau of Statistics too and elsewhere. I just was wondering whether there was any attempt at all by the economists in the branch or in the department to come up with some sort of an economic development plan.

After all this is the name of the department and I appreciate the fact that we are a province, we don't have that many levers to be able to maneouver as we'd like to, unlike the federal government that controls the money supply and the tariffs and rail transportation, etc., but nevertheless, I know it's difficult, but has there been any attempt to formulate some sort of a plan as to where Manitoba may be preceding in the future?

I know over the years there's been attempts to look at growth sectors and possibilities where there are greatest opportunities for our industrialists and businessmen, but is there now any current effort under way to formulate some sort of an economic development strategy over and above the speech made by the Minister last year? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR.

JOHNSTON: Last year in the Estimates, and I believe the year before, the province identified food and beverage, light machinery, transportation equipment, aerospace, health care products, electronics, as all sectors of Manitoba that we believe were the ones that should be concentrated on and worked on. We also have the fashion industry which is another one that we have declared is one that should be worked on as well. We have private sector boards and the names are all submitted of the people that are on those boards last year and they're available again if the honourable members want them.

There's a couple of small changes because of people who resigned or retired or felt they did not want to serve again on those boards. Those boards are advisory boards in those particular industries to the government of Manitoba. Now we do have the occasion with these boards, such as the aerospace industry, there's a study being done at the present time on the aerospace industry. It's cost-shared with the Federal Government under Enterprise Manitoba; in fact there are several studies going on at the present time. When I say several, I mean larger ones.

There is continuing feasibility studies being done by the Research Department. When the sector board recommends that we take a look at the viability of having some smaller industry go into Manitoba, or the viability of - let me put it this way, looking at the freight rates, etc., those studies are done on request.

But when you say the overall economic policy, the overall economic policy of the Province of Manitoba is first and foremost a resource industry, using our own resources to create jobs by manufacturing and processing those resources within our province, and secondly, to find industries that are properly geographically located into sectors that we have mentioned. And I might say that the food and beverage industry value of shipments has increased over '78, '79 and '80.

The light machinery industry has increased, '78, '79 and '80; the transportation equipment has increased; aerospace; the capital expenditure has increased considerably in the province to produce more goods; the health care products, we just can't quite get a handle on those figures as yet. Electronics has increased in shipments over '78 and '79, a small decrease of 3.7 '80 over '79, but the capital expenditures in '80 were 50.2 percent over 29 percent in 1979. And your total manufacturing is up.

The member questions the policy of the government to increase manufacturing in the Province of Manitoba and it is being done. If the member wants to bring up the service industries, it's another ball of wax. MR. EVANS: The Minister is going way beyond what I asked him. I asked him a very simple question, whether it was a macro economic development plan, a comprehensive economic development plan and I gather there isn't. I wasn't asking him to justify why one was up and the other was down or anything like that.

There is no comprehensive plan whereby you attempt to see where you've gone and where you may be going in terms of employment of labour, in terms of future investment, in terms of future output, in terms of future personal income growth. I gather there is no general comprehensive approach being made, that the studies that are being made are microscopic, in other words, they are made of specific industries and there is not sort of overall general plan where you are trying to develop a map more or less of where 401

Monday, 9 February, 1981 the province may be going. That's what I'm talking about, sort of a general map of where we may be going. There is no sinister meaning intent in that question. I just want that information and if there isn't any, well so be it. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(

d) pass. The Honourable Minister. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, we have layed down what our policy is as far as the economic development of the Province of Manitoba is concerned. The Enterprise Development Agreement is one that is identifying the areas that we believe the province should increase in. I really don't know what purpose it would serve putting people to work within the department doing a great big study that probably nobody would read, rather than work consistently on what we know are the areas of the province that should be advanced on the advise of business people and qualified people in those fields. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(

d) pass; 1.(e)(1) pass. The Member for Brandon East. MR. EVANS: On the Bureau of Statistics there is reference in the Annual Report, page 21, 1979-80 Annual Report of the Department, to the fact that the Bureau of Statistics, or some officer thereof, chairs the Data Users Planning Committee, an inter departmental statistical committee composed of 34 members, and that during 1979-80 three meetings were held along with several consultations.

I gather one of the purposes of this planning committee is to try to avoid duplication of effort in the field of statistics within the government, and I wondered if the Minister can comment and advise whether any progress has been made toward elimination of any statistical duplication that might exist in the government service. Another question I would ask him, to what extent has the department and the bureau been able to provide its expertise to other departments thereby lessening their needs, their requirements to higher statisticians or to engage in surveys, work that could well be done by this bureau? MR.

JOHNSTON: There is a survey review system commencing April 1981 to implement a review of all new provincial government surveys under the Regulations Review Committee of Cabinet to ensure a statistical quality and to minimize response and burden. This is being worked on very steadily and then we are, in an effort to reduce duplication of efforts in future departmental data collection, agricultural MBS is co-ordinating a project, small area data development. This project is designed to determine the data needs of the various government departments by the type of data.

As a result, it is expected that the MBS along with government departments will undertake to develop regional statistical information. So there is the department, the Bureau of statistics of the Province of Manitoba, MBS. is a gathering of information for all departments. I am not about to say that other departments do not have people who are not requesting information and analysing that information that comes from the Bureau of Statistics. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Brandon East. MR.

EVANS: Could I ask the Minister specifically whether the Credit Union statistics are still done in the Bureau of Statistics or whether they have gone back to the Department of Co-op Development? MR. JOHNSTON: I believe you asked me that question last year and I think that I answered it then. It's the same now; it's done by the Department of Co-op. MR. EVANS: Well, okay, I expected that was the answer. Perhaps I should have rephrased it a bit. Is it still in the Department of Co-op? MR. JOHNSTON: Yes, it is. MR.

EVANS: I don't recall, but what is the reason for continuing to have that done in the Department of Co-operative Development? The point as I understood, Mr. Chairman, of all this was that this was the beginning of a centralization of the collection of statistics because surely there is some benefit to have specialization in statistical gathering; you could have greater efficiency, in effect, collect reliable information at lower cost to the taxpayers of Manitoba, they were supposed to be concerned about as members of the Legislature. Mr.

Chairman, it seemed to me that we would do well to follow the path of the Statistics Canada which has successfully provided what I consider to be reliable, as reliable as you can get, statistical information and it's available to the public at large, both individuals, research groups, companies and so on, and that there was some advantage in doing it that way.

The Government of Canada has seen fit and this llas been the way it's proceeded since the First World War, and there was some merit, it seemed to us, that we attempt to do the same thing in Manitoba whereby you would have a bureau that could be the focal point of statistical collection to avoid unnecessary exercise.

There is some advantage in a volume through-put so to speak, where you put everything under one roof and then you get the advantage of a particular expertise that could therefore presumably do the work much more expeditiously and therefore cheaper than if the work was done scattered through a dozen or two departments. I think it's regrettable that the credit union statistics went back to the Department of Co-op Development. It was in the Bureau and it should have stayed there.

It seems to me that a lot of other data, statistics that are collected by other agencies should be done in the Bureau of Statistics, hopefully with their expertise bringing about eventually a lower cost of statistical collection. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, the Bureau of Statistics sets as its objectives to plan, promote and develop integrated social and economic statistics, and I'm interested in any involvement that they had in relation to a decision made by the Minister that there W8S too much doom and gloom in Manitoba.

I assume that there was some basis upon which he made that decision and I would like to know what the basis was, whether this was a gut reaction or whether he received information from the Bureau of 402

Monday, 9 February, 1981 Statistics which suggested that a response be undertaken. namely a response to spend $62,000 to promote the province and change people's attitude. My question is, was the Bureau of Statistics involved or did they initiate an action which led the Minister to undertake a program to attempt to counter it? MR. JOHNSTON: No, I don't recall the Bureau of Statistics supplying me with any statistics regarding doom and gloom. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, then I ask the Minister on what basis he decided to expend those amounts of money which are sizable?

How did he know that this was a prevailing attitude? Is this his impression from reading the press or did somebody say something to him or did a little bird tell him this or did an advertising agency come up to him and say here's a good program that you should undertake? What was the basis of his decision? MR. JOHNSTON: I don't know that I ever, while discussing this program and I could stand to be corrected, used the words doom and gloom. I have said the program is there to encourage people to live in Manitoba, to invest in Manitoba, and know that Manitoba is a good place to work.

There seemed to be some feeling that Manitobans maybe being second-class citizens as compared to the larger resource provinces to the west of us, and those are the reasons I gave for the program. MR. DOERN: The Minister is telling us then that there was no scientific basis for his decision to spend these funds. MR. JOHNSTON: If you mean did we spend a lot of money on a survey; if you mean did we spend a lot of money on a questionnaire; if you mean that we took a very large poll as being scientific basis; no, we didn't. MR. DOERN: Mr.

Chairman, I would also ask the Minister on what basis he has said repeatedly, as have other Ministers, that the fault of a negative attitude in the province, or what he perceives to be a negative attitude in the province, is solely because of the attitude and actions of the media or the political opposition in Manitoba. These apparently are the people that he sees as the parties responsible for this attitude. I ask him on what basis he makes that decision? MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, I answered this question Thursday night, I believe, last Thursday night, regarding the media and the Opposition. MR. DOERN: Mr.

Chairman, my question relates not to impressions of an individual but a question as to whether or not there was a scientific basis such as a survey, such as a survey taken by the Bureau of Statistics, and the answer the Minister gives is that he just felt this way or he just feels this way, and that's the basis of his decision to undertake an advertising program and spend public moneys, that there was in fact no statistical basis, or no scientific polling basis, underlying that decision. Is that what he is saying? MR. JOHNSTON: That's not what I'm saying, that's what I said about two minutes ago. MR.

DOERN: So then the Minister has an impression, and to satisfy his impression he's spending public moneys. Mr. Chairman I say that is not an effective way to operate, namely, that is not my impression. His impression is that there are problems in the Manitoba economy which can be attributed to negative comment by the media and the political parties.

It is my impression that there are problems in the Manitoba economy because of the fact that the Government has failed to tackle those problems; that the Government does not have a program to counter the serious problems in our economy and that, in spite of the fact that there are national and international problems which affect Manitoba, there is room for manoeuver and there are programs that could be undertaken by the Government; and that instead of tackling those difficult problems head on that the department's attitude and the government's attitude and the Minister's attitude is simply to spend money on packaging rather than deal with fundamentals, spend money on paint and cosmetics in an attempt to turn people's attitudes around.

I say that that is not the way to run a department or to run a government, that the government must attempt to stimulate employment and halt out-migration.

The kind of programs we're getting are simply not going to affect the real problems, they're simply going to waste money on promotional programs, and when we come to tourism I'll give an example of what I regard as a silly program that I believe the government funds in that regard, so you know I have to say to the Minister that I assume that the Bureau of Statistics is his statistical arm and are the people who would logically undertake surveys to - well they certainly undertake social and economic statistics and I assume that is the area where we should determine what some of our needs are.

The Minister is saying that he simply woke up one morning and decided that they were going counter this doom and gloom and so he undertook an advertising program to do so. MR. SPEAKER: 1. (e)

(1) The Member from Brandon East. MR. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to ask the Minister about a service that is now provided by the Bureau of Statistics. Again I'm reading from his last report , Annual Report of the Department, page 21: "Labour force and economic indicators are produced in computerized report form and provided monthly to departmental users the day the data is released by Statistics Canada. Monthly release dates of Statistics Canada economic data series are also provided to departments to facilitate usage". My question is, can that information be made available to others as well as to departments?

It's from Slats Canada. It's public information. Could it be made available to MLA's on request? MR. JOHNSTON: Yes. MR. EVANS: Is there a mailing list for this? MR. JOHNSTON: In the labour one it's made available the next morning, pretty well. The information comes through regarding the statistics you are speaking of. It's gathered by Statistics 403

Monday, 9 February, 1981 Canada and it's given to the departments as they require it. MR. EVANS: If you have some sort of a mailing list, I think it would be in the public interest to make it available to any MLA that had an interest in that. I do have an interest and I would like to be put on the mailing list. MR. JOHNSTON: We have a series of key economic indicators to be released by Statistics Canada. This will be released in February 1981.

Housing starts in urban centers, building permits, retail trade, labour force surveys, consumer index, are all released by Statistics Canada and the Manitoba Bureau of Statistics analyse those statistics. MR. EVANS: If you have a mailing list or something like that. I would like to be put on the mailing list, Mr. Chairman. It is public information, it's just a little handier that's all. I get the daily reports of Stats Canada, but you have to pour through them and it's just a matter of convenience really, looking for material that's relevant to Manitoba.

A lot of the material that comes out of the Statistics Canada of course does not necessarily apply directly to the province of Manitoba; they're national figures or there in such a way that they are not as useful as one might like to have them, but this would be an excellent service and I commend the Bureau tor undertaking it to the departments. I think there is nothing better than to have departments of any government having full knowledge that's available to make their job of administration easier.

I would welcome being put on the mailing list, indeed maybe other MLA's would like to be put on the mailing list as well. The other question I have relates to the Manitoba Statistical Review. which mcidently is an excellent quarterly report and it brings together a lot of Manitoba statistics. I am surprised that there are so few subscriptions however. There are 186 subscriptions and a complimentary list of 42 tor Ministers of the Crown, Statistics Canada and other statistical bureaus.

It would seem to me that this statistical review too, should be made available to some members of the Legislature that might be interested in it and others, I think other agencies. It would be good to have this review, because there is a lot of work goes into it, made more available. I am not suggesting people don't pay for it. but it seems to me that there should be more of an effort made to publicize the tact that that Bureau publication exists. I know many people in business and economic research who refer to it and know of it, but it's not known by many many others who I think could use it.

I think a lot of people in the business community should be advised that it's there. It's a very useful report and I think it would be very good if the Minister would direct the Bureau to send out a letter or a pamphlet or something to a lot of the busmess community to tell them that there it is, some information that they might find of use to them. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, we can let the members know that this is available, if that's what the member is requesting. MR. EVANS: And the business community.

All the money is spent to put it out; 185 people pay tor it. and then there is another 42 on a complimentary list. It seems with all the money that goes into preparing we should get the maximum benefit from that effort and let as many people know, as many businesses know, as many organizations know about it, as we possibly can. On the food price survey, I see that is continuing. Can the Minister tell us whether these departments are still utilizing the food price survey? Is it still of interest as it used to be I know to Manitoba Hydro, for example?

That food price survey, I believe, compared the cost of living in various communities spatially, say to Winnipeg, whether the cost of living was higher in Gillam, for example, in various food items than it was in Winnipeg, and the same is true for, I think, 14 other Manitoba communities covered. MR. JOHNSTON: It's still made available to Hydro, Finance, for the Department of Community Services and Corrections, Manitoba Telephone System. It's on a cost recovery basis at the present time to them. MR. EVANS: What about the energy price survey.

It says in this report is currently being conducted in 15 communities with home heating fuel indexes and average gasoline prices being produced. Is that made available to the public also? MR. JOHNSTON: It's part of the Manitoba statistical review. MR. EVANS: It's in the review eh? What about the accommodation occupation survey conducted monthly for travel Manitoba. It says quarterly reports along with several special reports were produced. Is that made available to the public? MR. JOHNSTON: It's made available to all the operators and anybody in the travel industry and the public who wants that information. MR.

EVANS: The point I am making, and maybe everything is done that can be done or should be done, but the point I am making is that I think we should try to emulate Statistics Canada in the sense that we should make whatever statistics are collected of a general nature, they should be made available to the public at large, and the public at large should be advised of them. But I won't make any more of that. Just another question then. There is reference again in your annual report to a mail survey conducted in the summer of 1980 of all manufacturing firms in the province.

These firms will be contacted to identify their production capabilities. I was just wondering whether that survey was conducted and what information is available on that survey? MR. JOHNSTON: In Manitoba the Bureau of Statistics is working with us on what we call the Sourcing Project which is tor the marketing of products manufactured in the Province of Manitoba and they developed a computerized sourcing data base which identifies the supply capabilities of Manitoba manufacturing firms, and as of October lsi, 1980, 1,591, and 2,061 individual products are catalogued in this data base.

There are books at the present time that have been produced that have this information in them. The sourcing program is also 404

Monday, 9 February, 1981 used by the marketing people, they're used when the development officers are calling in their particular territories throughout Canada - not throughout Canada, mainly in western Canada and parts of United States. If we identify a project, we also use the information that we receive regarding projects to let the manufacturers know what projects are going on and then we endeavour to put them together with the people who are requiring different materials and the Sourcing Program is now starting to be very successful. There are people really starting to use it.

It's an identification of products that are supplied by Manitoba manufacturers and it works the other way as well. We also identify projects that the Manitoba manufacturers can take advantage of. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I wanted to ask a few questions again about the government program on promotions. I don't know if it's appropriate to ask them here, if not, I'd like to know where. MR. CHAIRMAN: It would look like, committee, to be 2.(5) probably, -(Interjection)- 2.(a)(5). right. 1.(e)(1) pass; 1.(e)(2) pass; (

e) pass; 1.(f)(1). The Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: This is on the horseracing industry and the Manitoba Horseracing Commission, in particular. There is quite a substantial increase here in the Grant Assistance and there is also, at this time, talk of selling the track. I wonder if the Minister could begin by giving us a short justification for this increase of 60 percent and particularly what he expects to get in return for an additional $600,000.00. MR. JOHNSTON: The grant support, the thoroughbred purse support in 1980-81 was estimated at $848,000 and the actual was $1,093 million.

The thoroughbred breeders' awards was $61,700 and the actual was 243.1, giving a total for the actual of $1 ,336,000.00. The Great Western Racing Circuit purse support was estimated at 69.7; the actual was 100,000; breeders' awards were $34,000 and the actual was $42,000.00. Sire stakes support were estimated at $15,000 and they became 16.5 and the total of those three is 159.7. The commission administration costs were estimated at 62.6 and they were 65 bringing that total of the actual that was paid out to $1,561,000, the explanation for the increase in the 1980-81 vote to the 1980-81 actual of 469.6.

The thoroughbred purse support was raised from 1.7 of wagering to 2.25 of wagering bringing that 229.3. The thoroughbreeders' awards were increased from a flat amount of $61,700 to .50 of a total wagering which gave them $181,000. Wagering at Assiniboine Downs increased from $4 7. 7 million to $48.6 million requiring an increase in the funds for purse support of $15,200.00.

Support to the Great Western Racing Circuit was raised to allow for an increase in racing days from 24 to 77 days plus cost increases which was $41,000; and a general increase to the commission for net requirements was increased $2,700 for your total of 469.6. At the time of the Estimates preparation, the estimated requirement for 1980-81 was $1.6 million as provided in the 1980-81 vote plus Special Warrants. In 1981-82, request remains at this level, subject to the decisions that may be taken as a result of present departmental review of a study of the horseracing industry in Manitoba.

The background and explanation for the passing of the Special Warrants. On Friday, April 18, 1980, the Manitoba division of the Horsemen's Benevolent and Protective Association and Manitoba division of the Canadian Thoroughbred Horse Society voted unanimously to withhold any and all entries and refuse to race at the meet scheduled to commence at Assiniboia Downs on May 2, 1980.

As a result of representations made by me, by members of these organizations, it was agreed that negotiations take place between the representatives of the government and the representatives of the major parties involved in the provincial thoroughbred industry. As a result of these negotiations agreement was reached between government and the thoroughbred industry which provided for the following

summary: The first support would be a minimum of 1.75 of averaging plus an amount of $163,000 to assist the horsemen to repay past purse overpayments. (

b) Purse support would be retroactively increased to 2.25 of the waging if the industry review study recommended it and it was agreed that the purse support should be increased, the industry review recommended it. The study did recommend increased purse support and it was agreed that it should be provided. The Breeders' Awards Program was to be based on .25 of the wagering and the industry review study recommended a greater amount, it should be raised to a maximum of .50. The study did recommend an increased amount and the program was retroactively adjusted upon .50 of wagering.

So the increase came about because of the negotiations we entered into at the time when the horsemen had decided not to run, so we feel that 1.6 should be enough to handle this year's operation. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I think one of the key questions here is, given that the province is going to spend 60 percent more, does the Minister have any estimate on the impact on employment and taxation revenues generated by this?

For example, he said in a press release last September, titled "More support set for Horse Racing", that there is about 2,000 people in the industry and that it generates some $8 million to $10million worth of expenditures on goods and services. Can we deduce from this that, given that kind of an increase, that there might be a substantial increase in employment like several hundred more jobs or a substantial increase in wagering and other expenditures, maybe of the order of several more million dollars?

Does he expect some sort of a return on the investment that he's making on behalf of the people of the province? MR. JOHNSTON: The tax revenue from the industry this year in 1980-81 was $2,048,300 net and when the honourable member suggests that the increase in jobs will be created because of the increase in purses, I would like to say to him if there had not been any increase in purses whatsoever there wouldn't have been any jobs at all. The horsemen were determined that they would not run in 1980 unless there was some adjustments made and we sat down and negotiated with them. MR.

DOERN: Is the Minister saying that in terms of employment that by providing an additional 405

Monday, 9 February, 1981 $600.000. there will not be any increase whatsoever in employment that he anticipates? MR. JOHNSTON: There may be some increase in employment regarding the breeders in Manitoba which is what we are trying to establish. and that is to have a stock in Manitoba which is one of the most successful ways to have a good racing industry. If the breeding stock is enlarged in the Province of Manitoba that naturally is a breeding industry which will be increasing the amount of money that they spend within.

I guess, the community, the agricultural community for feed, etc., but the increase in the purses does not guarantee any increase in jobs. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, haven't the horsemen argued over the years that by having better purses and better support for the industry that you will have more public interest, better quality of horses, better quality of racing and consequently more, presumably more wagering and more expenditures. Hasn't this always been their argument? They will produce a better horse which will produce a better race which will generate more public interest.

Has that not been the logic that they've put forward? MR. JOHNSTON: Yes and we agreed that they should have increased support. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I'd ask the Minister, there was a series of recommendations made on the horse racing industry, did he accept that report or did he accept the main recommmendations made? MR.

JOHNSTON: At the present time we've asked every part of the racing industry, the different organizations, thoroughbred breeders and the harness, I was going to call it the harness horsemen, the track owners, etc., to review the . . . report and have meetings with our representatives that have been set up to study the report and make recommendations to the Minister. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman the Minister said in his press release through Information Services last September that the development of the industry is "being restrained" by comparatively low level of purses.

Will this grant assistance now put purses in Manitoba in line with other provinces and/or states in the U.S. MR. JOHNSTON: It will not put them in line, we will still be below, generally below the western provinces and some of the United States. MR. DOERN: Was the purpose of this grant to raise the level of purses as well? MR. JOHNSTON: The purpose of what grant? MR. DOERN: The $600,000. grant assistance. MR.

JOHNSTON: Well the assistance was paid to them on the basis of thoroughbred purse support, thoroughbred breeders awards, Great Western Racing Circuit the same purse support, breeders awards. sire stakes support. They were paid on the basis that it would increase and help the racing industry in the Province of Manitoba. MR. DOERN: Some of those funds will go to higher purses and consequently the purses will be more competitive then before. MR. JOHNSTON: Yes MR.

DOERN: I'd also like to ask the Minister whether, given that there is - I don't know whether this has taken place - can the Minister confirm that the track has been sold? Is he aware of whether that transaction has been completed? MR. JOHNSTON: No I can't confirm whether the track has been sold or not. MR. DOERN: In the event that it is sold or changes hands, does the horseracing commission approve or determine the acceptability of either the new owners or any new conditions that they might impose on horseracing in Manitoba?

Do they make any judgment on the owners or on the manner in which Assiniboia Downs operates in the industry? MR. JOHNSTON: We have no control who the owner of the track sells his track to but there is The Parimutuel Tax Act of the Federal Government, there is investigation by the Finance Department. It does not necessarily follow that they will be accepted by the Federal or Provincial Governments unless extensive surveys are made. I believe there was extensive surveys made when Mr. Wright bought the track and I imagine the same thing would happen again. MR. DOERN: I think that's all I have for now, Mr. Chairman.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN, Henry J. Einarson (Rock Lake): The Member for Virden. MR. McGREGOR: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I would like to enquire of the Minister and I am speaking now mainly of standard breds I guess and question from the Member for Elmwood, who owns the track, is one that comes to me quite often and I have never been able to answer it. They know and the people who are in the standard bred realize they've got to somehow have an extended meet to have a healthy industry because at the moment just having a few weekends and its growing and its great to see that growing, speaking of the great western circuit.

Has a Minister any change in the breeder incentive grants, I know some of racing people were in about a week ago to talk to him or his department regarding a change to make it a little more encouraging, how that's doled out in the future? Is there any basic change for next year? MR. JOHNSTON: There has been no change recommended to me as yet.

As I mentioned earlier all parties involved in horseracing in Manitoba have been asked to give their submission on the racing report, or a study, and those recommendations that they give will be taken into consideration and will have to very soon constitute a policy of the 90vernment regarding the racing for 1981-82, or 1981 in this case. I would like to be able to say to the honourable member that has been decided but it has not been completely decided as yet. MR. McGREGOR: What encouragement would the Minister say, or his department give, to this organization that might try an extended meet at 406

Monday, 9 February, 1981 Portage or Carmen somewhere far enough to be legally possible and yet close enough to the biggest population centre. I know they've talked, I've been at meetings in Brandon when they've talked of building a new track. Then I hear at Portage - now I don't know, what encouraging things can I take back to those groups? Because as you know, when you touch a track, Mr. Chairman, they are talking a million or a million and a half as the very minimum and that's not stables, etcetera, as the proposal just east of Winnipeg, a year, a year and a half ago, that was 7 or 8 million as I recall. MR.

JOHNSTON: Are you speaking of a new track for standard breds or are you speaking of extended . meets? MR. McGREGOR: Either one. There's a proposal to build a track at Brandon, and was also encouragement both at Portage and Carman, I believe, for an extended meet. MR. JOHNSTON: We've had discussions with them on extended meets, at different areas. They make the proposals, they are also requesting some financial assistance to be able to do that, and that hasn't been decided as yet. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: (f)(1) pass; (

f) pass. 2.(a)

(1) Administration: (

a) Salaries, $161,500.00 MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, just on a point of order. I think you now have to pass Resolution 48. -(Interjection)- One item missing. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Member for Brandon East. MR. EVANS: Okay. On (a)(1) we have an item providing moneys for administration and program development of Enterprise Manitoba. This is pursuant to the Canada Manitoba Industrial Development Sub-Agreement. I wonder if the Minister could advise us as to the progress that has been made at these Enterprise Centres? I believe there is one in Winnipeg and there is one in Brandon.

I wonder if the Minister could give us a report on the progress of these centres both in Winnipeg and the City of Brandon. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, I would like to say to the member that we are getting into the same area as we did last year because of the Enterprise Manitoba that it does get a little bit confusing. The whole Enterprise Manitoba agreement comes under Canada-Manitoba Industrial Development Sub Agreement that has all of the small business development centres. It has the Manitoba Food Technology Centre.

Where we have it here is the administration of Enterprise Manitoba by the department, but if the member is asking me the numbers of people, etcetera that have been helped by the Manitoba branch or the Brandon branch, that all comes under the Canada- Manitoba Agreement. This expenditure here includes the provision of 5 staff; an Assistant Deputy-Minister, manager of industrial development agreements, a director of program development for the industrial agreements, secretary to the Assistant Deputy-Minister, and an administrative secretary. Five people are involved in this area.

They are the people who ensure consultation with the private sector in the process of development programs. They are the people that bring together the sector boards that are set up, from industry, to work with them on the recommendations on the development of the program to the government and they identify and co ordinate potential directions, opportunities and programs and resources to stimulate economic growth. Again, I think I mentioned that earlier.

Those recommendations come from the private sector boards in the different sectors and expresses this information in the form of particular business development plans and program proposals to encourage and assist the private sector. This group also works with the private sector to find and what the government should be doing to assist certain types of business and also to evaluate any studies or any surveys being done. This is the group within the province and they are a very important group that work with the agreements and with the private industry on the agreements. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Brandon East.

MR. EVANS: Could the Minister tell us the names of the Board members for the Enterprise Centre in Brandon? MR. JOHNSTON: I'd be going from memory at the present time. I can have that for the Minister tonight very quickly, the members of the private sector board in Brandon for the small enterprise centre. I believe I have with me at the present time the members of the different private sector boards . . . I'd be going completely by memory if I were to give him that list and it's available very quickly. MR. EVANS: A more general question then.

Are the members of this board serving in a strictly honorary role, are they serving without pay or is there some form of remuneration for meetings attended and what about out-of-pocket expenses? MR. JOHNSTON: They serve without any remuneration. There's just out-of-pocket expenses for those boards. If the Board made a decision to take a lrip say around Brandon to go and look at something in Virden or there was lunches involved or travelling involved, that would be the out-of-pocket expenses; they do not receive any remuneration. MR. EVANS: How frequently does the board meet?

The Brandon board or the Winnipeg board, I guess probably follow a similar schedule. Do they meet monthly or do they meet as problems arise or just what is the pattern? MR. JOHNSTON: Monthly, sometimes more than monthly. I know it was monthly but very often they'll meet more than that if an occasion arises. MR. EVANS: This applies both to the Winnipeg and the Brandon Board? MR. JOHNSTON: Yes. 407

Monday, 9 February, 1981 MR. EVANS: It would seem to me among the decisions made probably the most critical decision that the board is called upon to make is with regard to who shall be a tenant in the incubation centre in this Enterprise Development Centre. I call it an incubation centre, we had done research on this in the department years ago and we were following a model, I think we're following a model in Manitoba that was in place or still is in place in Prince Edward Island.

The point is of course that there are technical services available to fledgling enterprises, new entrepreneurs and that a certain amount of space is made available to such entrepreneurs after suitable screening and so on. So it seems to me that one of the most important decisions made by the board as to who, from all those who may be interested, shall come into the premises to get this assistance and virtually get a form of subsidy because the rent is quite reasonable and so on.

The question is, is that correct, am I correct in that assertion and also, does the board really have the final say or is the final say made by the department? MR. JOHNSTON: I guess you could say that the final say is made by the Minister, as I related last year the board receives recommendations from the staff. The board then sends it to what is called the Federal-Provincial Committee in the agreement. The Federal-Provincial Committee then makes a recommendation to the Minister. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(a) - the Member for Brandon East. The Member for St. Boniface. MR.

DESJARDINS: The Minister said that the recommendation first of all comes from the staff. What staff is he referring to, his staff, or does the board have a . MR. JOHNSTON: Well, to begin with, there's a lot of applications for space. The board examines that and then the staff who are working with business, in say, the Brandon area, or the Winnipeg area, department staff may recommend to the board that this particular company could be better operated and economically advanced by having space in one of the buildings.

Now that is discussed by the board and recommended by the board and, as I say, it goes to a committee of federal and provincial, because the federal are our partners, and then ultimately to the Minister and I naturally take the advice of three different people who are part of the recommendation. MR. DESJARDINS: I'm asking because I'm not sure, I'm a little concerned. I've seen too many times that you have boards like that and they become rubber stamped, I mean between there and the public. for some reason.

I'm certainly not saying this is the case but I'm a little concerned because the Minister stated that. first of all, the recommendation is from the staff and it"s the Minister's staff to start with. At times. again I'm not accusing or anything, but the possibility is there that the government could suggest through the staff to a board, and the board can. in effect. become a rubber stamp. I hope this is 'lOt the case because you see, the staff is still the department's staff.

Can the Minister elaborate the independence of that staff, do they meet with this board before or do they have to have their recommendation, does a copy of that go to the Minister before or at the same time that it goes to the board? I'd like the Minister to elaborate, make sure that my concerns are not justified. MR. JOHNSTON: I don't have any contact with the staff, not in my experience have I had any contact with the staff, regarding the original recommendations as far as applications or recommendations to the board are concerned. MR.

DESJARDINS: Not even policies, they're not left with policies of government . MR. JOHNSTON: The policies are laid down in the Enterprise Manitoba Agreement as to whether you qualify or not. And I might say to you, the boards that we have had in place for the last two years are very independent boards. As a matter of fact I meet with the boards probably once a year at the most to just have discussion with them on how things are going. It's reported to me by my staff, the number of meetings, etc. that they have, but they are very independent boards.

And the businessmen that are on them have to be approved by both Federal and Provincial government. MR. EVANS: Of the recommendations made by these independent boards, what percentage of the recommendations are turned down ultimately by the Federal-Provincial Committee because I presume that's where the first, either agreement or disagreement occurs, because I'm not clear. Let's say the board recommends businessman X to go in, and for whatever reason, there could be a legitimate difference of opinion by some staff members or by this Federal-Provincial Committee.

What percentage of these recommendations have been accepted or has there been any turned down, or invariably do these boards' recommendations get accepted as a matter of course by the committee. MR. JOHNSTON: Well, to my knowledge there have been several applications turned down by the boards and if the person wants to make a representation to the Minister, he can. MR. EVANS: That's fine, but what I'm talking about is a board decision saying industry X or businessman Y, in their opinion, should be approved to come into the centre and then subsequently this recommendation goes to the Federal Provincial Committee.

What I'm asking is, are there any of these recommendations that are turned down by the committee, or 100 percent, or is it just a matter of course that the board, the businessmen board that we talked about, these independent boards, submit recommendations and the Federal Provincial Committee more or less rubber stamp their recommendations. Is that the case? MR. JOHNSTON: The Federal-Provincial board, in the case of Enterprise Manitoba, could turn them down coming to the Minister but I don't believe that they have turned any down coming to the Minister.

Basically the decision as to whether they go in or not is with the board of the Enterprise Centre. And 408

Monday, 9 February, 1981 certainly they submit all the information that they made their decision on. I believe I haven't turned any down regarding - no, I haven't. I've had representation from people who have been turned down. MR. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, as I understand it, the Minister turns down or accepts the recommendation of the Federal-Provincial Committee.

But what I'm asking is, what evidence do we have of the Federal Provincial Committee disagreeing with the recommendations of the private boards, or has the experience been - and there's nothing wrong with a difference of opinion, I'm simply seeking information has the experience been that the recommendations of the private boards, or the boards that are made up of private businessmen or whatever you call them. or however you may describe them, are these recommendations more or less holus-bolus accepted by the Federal-Provincial Committee or do you have experience whereby the Federal-Provincial Committee. for whatever reason, turns down a percentage, let's say, of the recommendations of the board?

MR. JOHNSTON: No. The Federal-Provincial Committee is basically there, or is there to make sure that any recommendations coming from the board qualify under the Federal-Manitoba Agreement. MR. EVANS: That's fine but there can be a difference of opinion. The board may say, yes, businessman X should go into this particular Enterprise Centre in our view. I understand that recommendation then goes to the Federal-Provincial Committee for approval. You either approve or you disapprove of the recommendation of the board.

So what I want to know is what percentage, if any of the board's recommendations are turned down by the Federal-Provincial Committee? MR. JOHNSTON: None are turned down. MR. EVANS: None. MR. JOHNSTON: Because as I said, the Federal Provincial Committee is there to make sure that the people that are recommended by the board meet the qualifications and there are qualifications laid down as to whether they qualify for the program. There hasn't been any come before the Federal-Provincial Board that did not qualify. MR. EVANS: Mr.

Chairman, I heard the Minister say awhile back that there are more people that want to come into these centres than there is space for, so therefore it wouldn't be a matter of perhaps simply whether you qualify or not as to whether who goes in first, who comes in second, and who comes in third, let's say of space available. I mean there is that type of problem. MR. JOHNSTON: I'm informed that we're not 100 percent full yet. I knew we weren't as of the beginning of January, not 100 percent full and we're not 100 percent full now. MR. EVANS: Mr.

Chairman, this was my question earlier on, but I understood we were going to get the information this evening, and that was with regard to what the capacity of the centres were and how many establishments were in them so we could see to what extent they were being fully utilized. So I was going to reserve a discussion of that until this evening, because I thought this was where the numbers would come up. MR. JOHNSTON: The actual numbers will come up under the Staff that's here.

I'd be going again by memory, or a month old, as to how many of the areas in Brandon are empty at the present time or in Winnipeg, but it will come up under the Manitoba Industrial Development agreement, Sub-Agreement "Enterprise Manitoba". MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(a). The Member for Brandon East. MR. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, as a matter of information, what about the assistance in Regional Development Corporations? Is the administration for the Regional Development Corporations still under this item?

I think it is and I want to know also where are the moneys for the Regional Development Corporations, or is that under the Canada-Manitoba Agreement also? MR. JOHNSTON: The funds for the Regional Development Corporations were two years ago turned into the Manitoba Industrial Development Sub-Agreement "Enterprise Manitoba". MR. EVANS: The administration of the Regional Development Corporations - by administration, I mean the departmental concerns specifically with the RDCs - come under this item, do they not? MR. JOHNSTON: Yes, if you have a question now, yes ... MR.

EVANS: We can discuss it here later but it's comme ci, comme ca. Is that okay? Is it still the case that we have six regional development corporations in the province? As we know, about a couple of years the WestMan Development Corporation decided on their own to fold up, so we had seven then, we reduced to six. Your last annual report refers to six. I'm just wondering has there been any change in that or is there any indication of any change? MR. JOHNSTON: No, there is no change in that. There is still six.

WestMan has not decided to have a Regional Development Corporation since they went on their own, packed it up, I think, it was three years ago. MR. EVANS: I appreciate the department has the enterprise centre there, but inasmuch as the main centre in the WestMan region is in the City of Brandon and inasmuch as there is no WestMan Development Corporation now, has the department or the Minister given thought to providing some funding to the City of Brandon and other communities that might have some industrial development thrusts to assist them?

Because as it is now, there is no funds in this area going into the WestMan area. I mean it's unfortunate; it's a decision 409

Monday, 9 February, 1981 that was made there. I know some of those communities I think would like to have some continuing assistance and I was wondering whether there is any consideration given to providing some financial assistance. I know the City of Brandon incurs quite an expenditure to maintain an industrial development office, and I repeat I know the centre is there so that is something, but in terms of the general assistance that used to be provided with three of the regional development corporations, that no longer is available. MR.

JOHNSTON: Brandon decided to have its own industrial commissioner and they made that decision on their own. We have had discussions with other areas in the WestMan region of forming a WestMan group held without having Brandon in it, and that is still being pursued, but it's not a fact at the present time. But there is going into the Brandon EDC, Industrial Development Centre of the province, about $460,000 through Enterprise Manitoba. The fact that we have the EDC there is a very large benefit to Brandon and the surrounding area, but Brandon, I know, wants to have their own industrial commission. MR.

EVANS: To what extent has the Minister become involved with some of the general thrusts of the Regional Development Corporation? Is there any attempt to co-ordinate what they are doing? Does the Minister meet with the presidents from time to time or just what if any guidance, that is with regard to co-ordination and liaison goes on between the department and the Regional Development Corporations? MR. JOHNSTON: Well, certainly with EastMan we have had some discussions with their director. You see, the member is well aware of how these are set up.

They are set up, boards are elected by the towns who support the Regional Development Corporation. They vote on and set up their own president and directors of their corporation. They hire their own director and if they have 60 percent, I believe, of the towns and population if I'm not mistaken, as members of their corporation we fund them to the extent that we have been for the past many years. The decisions on what their development corporations do is very much up to their boards.

Certainly we're concerned that they spend time with each of their members assisting them in any way they can for development within their area. We have a person who is in very close contact with most of them all the time. Mr. Bergman is retired and on staff as my special assistant, but he keeps a very close contact with the industrial development corporations, but it certainly comes under the Assistant Deputy Minister, but their operation is one that we don't control. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(a)(1) pass; 2.(a)(2) pass; 2.(a)(3) pass. n,e Member for Brandon East. MR. EVANS: 2.(a}, I thought you were going to say 2.(a)(b).

Did you say 2.(a)(b}, 2.(

b) rather? MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(a)(2) pass; 2.(a)(3). MR. EVANS: 2.(a)(2)(

b) Other Expenditures, $767.000.00. Could the Minister advise what's under that? I was under the impression that most of the other expenditures on technology were covered by the Canada-Manitoba Industrial Agreement relating to technology and if he could elaborate on that large item we would appreciate it. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman. the increase on the Other Expenditures. $767,700, and the major items and professional fees is 26.9; grants to persons in non-profit organizations, science fairs are $3,000.00; the University of Manitoba Engineering Department, $722,000.00. MR.

EVANS: Could the Minister elaborate on what that - I think he said $722,000 to the Engineering Faculty at the University? Could he explain what is that money meant for? MR. JOHNSTON: The University of Manitoba Engineering Department made a presentation to my department on the basis that the accreditation for the Faculty of Engineering at the University of Manitoba was in possible danger of losing their accreditation. The University at that time did not feel that they could expand the engineering department any further.

A brief and presentation was made to myself, which in turn was made to the Economic Development Committee of Cabinet, and Cabinet approved an expenditure in 1980-81 of some $300,000; in 1981-82 of 767,700, the figure you see here; and in 1982-83, $1 million, which comes to a total of approximately $2 million to the Faculty of Engineering in the University. This is very similar to what is done by the Department of Agriculture to the Agricultural Faculty.

One of the reasons being the teaching and research, and industrial and computer engineering, that will be set up so that the university will be able to work more closely with industry in this province and work more closely with the development of the economics in this province. There is no question that having a university together with your technology centres and also working with the micro-electronics centres is a very definite benefit to the economic development of the province.

It would have been a very serious situation if the University of Manitoba had ever lost their accreditation, the Faculty of Engineering. The faculty has given us cash flow and all of the intentions of how the money is to be spent, so it's a program of $2 million over a three-year period to the Faculty of Engineering. MR. EVANS: Mr. Chairman. I want to make it clear that I support any assistance that we can give to ensure the Engineering Faculty retains its accreditation and I think it's important that our university in general maintains standards, in fact, improves standards.

But as the Minister describes it, I'm not clear that this is really moneys that can be considered to be related specifically to Economic Development. I'm not clear from what the Minister says. He explains that there is going to be statements of how they spend the money and explains that it's a good backup for industry and so on and technological improvement in the province, but I'm not clear whether these moneys are being spent specifically on particular projects that the department identifies, that the department assists them with, the Engineering Faculty assists them with, 410

Monday, 9 February, 1981 or is it like a grant similar to what the Universities Grants Commission might make to the university and say, well, here is so much money, you do your thing with it. As the Minister describes it, it would seem to me that it would be more fitting that such moneys be made available to the University of Manitoba through the Grants Commission. The university has made it very clear over the years, the students, the faculty and the administrators that they have not had sufficient funds through the Grants Commission. The funding has not kept pace with inflation up until this year.

In the past years we have been cutting back in real terms the amount of funds available to the University of Manitoba, Winnipeg and Brandon, and it would seem to me that if we want to ensure accreditation standards, for example, in the Faculty of Engineering, the more logical place to do this would be in the funding by the Universities Grants Commission and that is in keeping with the intention which was laid down many many years, where the Government of Manitoba would give moneys on block to the universities not to interfere or infringe on academic freedom or the academic programs of the universities.

It seems to me the way we're funding in this particular instance is to some extent well meaning as it may be, and I'm not questioning the Minister's motives or the department's motives, this is not the ideal way to fund the university. If we want to ensure a good quality engineering faculty, then that should be funded and recognized by the Grants Commission and adequate money should be made available. It's not clear from the Minister's explanation that this is some particular type of expenditure that's going to relate to some particular program or set of programs by the department, it's simply not clear.

I say that while we welcome the support for the university, this is not the way to do it. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, you have a situation in the Department of Engineering; you've got rapid changes in industrial like we've never seen before. The equipment and everything that they require to be able to keep up with the rapid changes in industry at the present time, plus the computer engineering that I mentioned earlier, was such that the Faculty of Engineering needed this assistance to be able to continue to assist and even assist much more than they have been, industry within the province.

If you take a look at Stanford, or you take a look at any of the areas where you have a large industrial base, you will find that you have a very strong engineering faculty within the university that works with industry.

The changes that were being made that required new equipment and some more staff to be able to do this were such that they made a presentation to my department, the Department of Economic Development, on the basis that over a three-year period if they had this assistance they would be able to, as of one time or over a three-year period, a one-time grant or assistance, they would be able to have the engineering department structured in such a way that it would become of benefit to the economic industry of the Province of Manitoba.

The request was made to the department and it was considered very seriously and ultimately the Cabinet had to approve that these funds would be directed specifically to the Engineering Department. Now the Universities Grants Commission - and I must say that I can't be technical on this just exactly how it works, the Minister of Education could probably be better on that, but the moneys that go through the Universities Grants Commission or to the universities can be sidetracked for say another faculty.

We felt that the engineering faculty of the Province of Manitoba needed this particular special assistance at this time. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Boniface. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, I can see the concern of the Minister but by the same token I think that practically every department can feel the same thing. The Department of Health might decide that they want a chair in geratology at the University in Medicine or something.

Will that mean that the Department of Health would finance that and it might be that another department, the Department of Agriculture, Mining and so on, isn't that kind of eroding the system of letting the university decide? I haven't got the answer myself at this time. I think I know what the Minister is trying to do but - sometimes all these things start with good intentions. The first thing you know you're going to control the university and that's my concern. It might be a good thing to do at times, the same thing as the Department of Health.

The government might have to do something, to say, hey, this is what we want even if it's not the first priority of something else, but there is a difficulty and it could lead to problems later on. MR. JOHNSTON: I know what the member is saying when he says it could lead to others. We do it, and the Department of Agriculture has done it for years because Agriculture has been the feature department at the University of Manitoba on the basis that agriculture is our No. 1 economic thrust. We have no intention of trying to control the University.

I could only say that the decision to do this was done on the basis of - there was another group, the Engineering Association of Manitoba were also part of the recommendation with the University and it was studied very thoroughly. We could have done it two ways, I guess. We could have said to the Universities Grants Commission, here is this money providing it goes to the Faculty of Engineering, which would be close to doing the same thing. The money has been provided through this department. MR. DESJARDINS: Maybe that's the way it should be done because you have the Grants Commission and they're looking at that.

I don't think and I'm not saying, I want this clear, that the department shouldn't say or the Government of the Day shouldn't say, well, we want to go in that direction. I think that, you know, they represent the public and so on, but in a way you're undermining. If it comes directly to the department, you are undermining, I think, the Grants Commission and you're causing another way of - they say that if you make a lot of noise, you will get more action. You are encouraging different groups like that to go directly to the Minister concerned. MR.

JOHNSTON: This wasn't done without a lot of discussion with the University and they had no 411

Monday, 9 February, 1981 objection to it going that way or being done that way. They were in complete agreement that the Faculty of Engineering did need this kind of extra support and quite frankly they came to the Department of Economic Development, where I must say that I had some concern - we're repeating ourselves - over their accreditation, and had some concern that if they didn't have these funds they would not be able to take their place in Manitoba with the assistance now to industry.

If it goes through the Grants Commission, as you say. with instructions - and I mentioned earlier that I'm not technically qualified on that. I guess it could have been done that way, that the complete assurance that the moneys went to the Faculty of Engineering might not have been there. This way it goes to the Faculty of Engineering. I'm not too sure when the 300-and-some-odd-thousand was passed out last year that it didn't go directly to the University specifying for the Faculty of Engineering. The cheque is payable to the University, but not through the Grants Commission. MR.

EVANS: It's one thing to provide moneys for the Faculty of Engineering to get some input to help industrial development. but when the Minister says we're afraid of the Faculty losing its accreditation and that's why we're giving the money - that, Mr. Chairman, really is tantamount to becoming very much involved in the general administration problems of the University. Surely that is a problem for the total University Board of Governors and administration to be concerned with.

I'm sure they're convinced and concerned that the accreditation must be maintained. and I think, you know the road to hell is paved with good intentions. I know they were good intentions. but I'm saying this is an unfortunate way to fund our universities. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hour of 4:30 having arrived, I move the committee rise for Private Members' Hour. Committee rise. SUPPLY - AGRICULTURE MR. CHAIRMAN, Abe Kovnats (Radisson): I direct the honourable members' attention to Page 9 of the Main Estimates, Department of Agriculture, Resolution No. 8, Clause 2, Manitoba Crop Insurance Corporation - Administration pass.

The Honourable Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. On Friday we left off, I don't know whether the Minister has his staff comi"g yet. There's no one from Crop Insurance. I did have one or two more questions on the reserves that came to mind since speaking to him after the period of adjournment and that was the. as I understood the Minister he indicated that the amount of reserves that the Corporation had was adequate enough to cover all the claims that are estimated up to this point for 1980 of the possibility of $42 million worth of claims. I wanted to know, Mr.

Chairman. since there was, I think. $6 million worth of provincial reserves, and I think he·s indicated there was $18 or $20 million worth of federal reserves, or a total of $36 million in reserves. how is that reserve fund built up? In what way does it build up every year or how do we reach that amount of reserves that we've had over the years? How is it accumulated? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. DOWNEY: There is an annual amount paid in to the reinsurance program on an annual basis. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, I am assuming that that annual amount is on a prorated basis between the province and Ottawa or does it come out from the premium income that farmers pay in. Is that how it's accumulated? MR. DOWNEY: The deduction is made from both the percentage paid by the Federal Government and by the farmers' premiums. MR. URUSKI: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, then therefore the fund is built up primarily on the basis of the premium income of farmers and, of course, the 50 percent subsidy that farmers receive on the premium income, and out of that amount a percentage . . . is it an automatic percentage that goes into the fund annually based on the premium income? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, it is a variable amount depending on the coverage and the premiums. MR. URUSKI: How is that variable amount determined?

Is there a set formula that this occurs or is that sort of an actuarial guesstimate that is made by personnel at the Corporation as they view the progress of the year in terms of their prognosis of whether claims and the like - Is that the way it's determined? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, it is a set formula by agreement when it was initially put in place, so it is a set formula which is a part of the agreement on the reinsurance program with the Federal Government. MR. URUSKI: Yes. I understand that the formula has been set by a 1960, some agreement which is approximately 20 years old.

Does that formula also provide for the amount of moneys that are set aside in the reserve, that agreement provides how . . . what percentage of funds goes in annually into the reserve or is that amount determined by staff of the Corporation in consultation with the federal people? MR. DOWNEY: No, Mr. Chairman, it's not determined annually by staff, but it is by formula that's in the agreement. MR. URUSKI: Yes, Mr. Chairman.

Is it possible for the Minister to indicate, is it a different formula than the one in terms of the reserves of the 2 percent of coverage that the province picks up and then it's f.hared 75-25 between the province and Ottawa? This is how the reserves are paid out if the claims ·exceed. and how is the formula as to the payout into the reserve made up? If that's not available I'd like to know. MR. DOWNEY: The formula that the member referred to is not 2 JJercent, it was 2.5 percent as a 412

Monday, 9 February, 1981 matter of correction. The details of the formula I can get for the member, but I don't have the specific here. Nothing has changed over the last 20 years or since the agreement was put in place. I think it was less than 20 years, but it's been working very well. MR. URUSKI: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, when we spoke on Friday about the current review that is being conducted of the Corporation's practices and the dissatisfaction in some quarters of rural Manitoba with the Crop Insurance Program - when does the Minister hope to have the recommendations and how does he intend to deal with those recommendations in terms of policy and changes. What does he foresee in terms of timing? Are there going to be changes additional to those already announced in terms of coverage and the like this year? What can farmers expect from this process? MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman, I would expect very little change as far as the actual coverage because we have to have that in place at the beginning of the seeding period, so I would expect very little actual change as far as dollars and cents coverage as opposed to . . . I would think basically there may be some administrative type changes or that type of thing that may be implemented this year as far as procedure and operation of the Corporation is concerned. But as far as actual coverage, no I wouldn't anticipate seeing anything more than has already been announced in the schedules that have gone out to the agents. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Clause (2). The Honourable Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, could the Minister outline, although there have been publications from time to time I may have missed some of them on the Corporation, the basic changes generally speaking for this coming year? MR. DOWNEY: Could the member repeat that again please? MR. URUSKI: Could the Minister outline the changes that there have been to coverage and to the program since the experience of last fall - the new changes for this coming year in crop insurance? MR. DOWNEY: Basically, Mr.

Chairman, the coverage for sunflowers will be increased significantly over the past year, plus there will be a change in the coverage for both utility and hard wheat. As I indicated the other day, I believe I answered that. Utility wheat will be separated from the hard spring wheat when it comes to determining the yields and the production from both crops. Another change was, there will be higher coverage for sugarbeets and potatoes. Copies of the specifics and the changes are in a news release that was released on January the 2nd for specific details on that particular crop insurance changes.

Basically, as I indicated the other day, the amounts in general will be in favour of the farmer with higher coverage and lower yields. 1 notice that the Manager of the Crop Insurance Corporation did stay over, he was in to a meeting this morning. If there are any further questions that he may be able to answer, I could have him come down to, but I wasn't aware that he was still here. So if there's any further questions of the management I can have him come into the Chamber. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. A.R. (Pete) ADAM: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I wanted to ask you questions on this particular department. I'm also receiving a lot of criticism on Manitoba Crop Insurance and a lot of concern is expressed by producers in my area. I would like to ask the Minister, in view of the fact that he has just mentioned that there will be no basic changes insofar as the insurance coverage and so on for this year that there has to be a package in place, but he did mention that there would possibly be some administrative changes.

I'm just wondering if the Minister could perhaps clarify just what he means by that and what type of administrative changes does he envisage insofar as administration is concerned? I would like to know also about the board members; I would like to know ... I believe I missed what was said on the review, doing the review on Friday, and perhaps the Minister could just repeat what he is doing as far as the review is concerned; the makeup of the board members, the length of their terms and if there's a high turnover as far as board members are concerned?

I'm just wondering, in view of the fact that there are so many complaints coming in not only on crop insurance but on other agricultural matters as well such as plant breeders' rights and other farm problems, I'm wondering if the Minister would consider setting up a Legislative Committee, members of a Legislative Committee to go out and hear firsthand on a number of farm issues, such as Manitoba crop insurance, the plant breeders' rights, the Crow rates and a lot of other very important issues that are of concern and are getting a lot of publicity at the present time? MR. DOWNEY: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I believe the majority of the questions that were asked have been answered last Friday in this Chamber and I will try and keep it very brief and point out to the member that there were some changes, increased coverage in sunflowers and sugar beets and potatoes. I've referred to the press release that went out on January the 2nd. There was a change in the calcuation of the returns from both the . . . or instead of calculating the returns of bread wheat and utility wheat they have been separated and each wheat is now covered individually. The member asks the question of the Review Committee.

It is a one-man

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	31-5-14a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	31st 5th hansardpdf 14a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	4547077317875d7fb319caede4e968d34ac71976

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