VOL. 3 NO. 11 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. TUESDAY, MARCH 21, 1978 -.. I!

March 21, 1978 Tape 326 PK- 1 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I wish to announce that I have today regretfully accepted the resignation of Mr. Denis Groom, Chairman and Chief Executive of Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro. Mr. Groom's resignation will become effective on June 30 of this year. Mr.

Groom has served this Province well over a number of years, firstly as Financial Advisor to Premier Smallwood's Government in 1966, and then as comptroller and Deputy Minister of Finance from 1967 to 1969. During this period Mr. Groom initiated many of the changes in the Province's financial relationships, and in the operation of the Department of Finance and Treasury Board, which today provides for the more effective operation of the public service and have contributed to the maintenance of the Province's credit rating.

During the period 1970 to mid-1974 when he returned to Newfoundland to assume his present position,Mr. Groom successfully held top appointments in industry in the U.K. At the request of the government,Mr. Groom returned to Newfoundland in July 1974 to assume responsibility for Churchill Falls Labrador Corporation, to oversee the construction activity on the Gull Island project, and to bring together under one organization all the Province's interests in electrical energy. Under Mr. Groom's direction the separation of the CFLCo operation from BRINCO and the subsequent transfer of activities from Montreal to St.

John's has been successfully accomplished in a new organization; Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro has been established. Mr. Groom has advised me he feels this is an • I ! opportune time for him to leave as Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro is now well established on a stable basis, and arrangements for sao

March 21, 1978 Tape 326 PK - 2 Mr. Peckford: developing Gull Island with federal assistance have not yet progressed to a point where his departure would create difficulties. Mr. Groom tells me that he has received an attractive offer from a major British corporation to join their main board as Group Finance Director, and that he has decided to take this opportunity to return to the priva~e sector. I have therefore reluctantly agreed to accept his resignation in order that he may be permitted to do so.

During the coming weeks government will be reviewing with Mr.Groom and the Board of Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro the question of his successor,and I hope that a decision on this important matter can be reached quickly. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. W. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, a word of two if I may, Sir, with the indulgence of the House on this very important matter. Another resignation, Mr. Speakei. •l'!R • :t•iEAR Y : MR. W. ROWE: There seems to be one a day.

They are alternating between the ministry, ministers themselves,and senior public servants, You will soon see the whole upper echelon of the Government of Newfoundland gutted of its leadership and talent. Mr. Speaker, the han. Minister of Mines and Energy was noticeably reticent as to the reasons why Mr. Groom would decide of his own volition to step down from what can only be characterized as an exceedingly attractive job for anybody, Certainly the prerequisities of office as well as the recompense for the undoubtly onerous duties involved were very attractive.

I am wondering if the minister could indicate whether he has received a letter of resignation from Mr. Groom or not on this matter? MR. NEARY: On what date? 'j; MR. W. ROWE: The minister, Sir, is too busily trying to find 1 -t • out the reasons himself,apparently . 901

March 21, 1978 Tape 326 PK - 3 MR. NOLAN: Or did he have it for a week or two? MR. SIMMONS: He is not sure. MR. w. ROWE: He does not know. MR. NEARY: You did not have it in your pocket - MR. w. ROWE: He does not know whether he has received a letter or not, Sir. I would ask the minister - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. W. ROWE: - if a letter has been received? Would the minister undertake - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: It is not like the Bill Saunder's letter, no. MR. PECKFORD: I do not lmow . . . • MR. W.

ROWE: Would the minister, Sir, would the minister undertake to table that letter in the House of Assembly? MR. SIMMONS: They would never keep you down for three days, "Brian 11 • MR. PECKFORD: What? MR. SIMMONS: They would never keep you down for three days, 'Brian'. MR. W. ROWE: Sir, if I could have the protection of the Chair, - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. W. ROWE: - in order to make my few modest remarks. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. gentleman wishes not to be interrupted. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. PECKFORD: Would the former leader of the Liberal Party keep quite • MR. W.

ROWE: I do not blame him, Sir, he is sorel y provoked every time he looks across this House and see that man. Very provoked. AN HON. MEMBER: Lots of leaders on this side. MR. W. ROWE: So I understand the government being exceedingly jumpy , touchy and twichy. As a matter of fact, Sir, thirty twitching heaps across the House of Assembly never knowing '!'That minister is going to go next, never knowing what senior civil servant is going to 902

March 21, 1978 Tape 326 PK - 4 Mr. W. Rowe: toss in his hat and bail out from this sinking ship, - ~1R . NEARY: They are so worried, Mr. Speake r , they are so worried. MR. W. ROWE: - known as the Government P.C . Government of this Province . l1R. NEARY: They are so worried they had "to have a caucus. ~1R. W. ROWE: They had a caucus yesterday , Mr. Speaker, in order to say, Yes, Sir, we took a vote and we reaffirm our faith in the Premier pro tem. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Bear, hear! .. f ~ -. • 903

:·a rc h 21, 1J78 Tape 327 ~ 1 1 - 1 The Chairman of caucus hir.1self, ~·r. S[Jeaker, hc.s not seen fit to come in. I do not to take votes in my caucus, Sir, - You do not have to . Hear~ He a!"'~ I do not have to take votes. Hh en ! go into my ca ucus. Sir, the love and affection ne l ts, me l ts me wh~n •;taH i n - G h, ':'h! .;•1 iiiJil. :'Et1JER: uh, Lord! 'iR . ~L N • R 0 \·! E : I do not have to s a v ' •·! h 0 i s for me to d" · ? r . Speaker, Are v o u for me to d a~' or are you aqainst me?' t~ R. DOODY: I do not have to do it, Sir. You VIOU 1 d not dare ask! You would not 9are ask! t·1r. •:. N.

RQI·IE: If i rtdU trrd t IIUII. Ill t:::lll u t:,. ~ No, ~lander he has got hi rn oushc . AN HON. f·~Ei1BER: Has it a secret ballot, do you know? '1 R • \! • N • R 0 ~ · J E : It was under this minister. Sir, that the Deputy Minister of Municipal Affairs re­ si 9ned as 1·rell, my colleague points out to me.vrhich I ~ as going }to mention in any event. This minister seems to have a track history of drivinq out of the gov~rn- ment the senior and talented and skillful civil servants · .. r il c ·.•! a :1 t to r~ a k e an ~ f F crt , m a!: e a con t r i but i on to : he develooment of this ?rovince.

Sir, a couple of questions for the minister. if he would not mind, later on, 'r4nuld he mind qeio-nin.oto give the !-louse the reasons for ' lr. Groom's resignation? Is it because. Sir, he suspects a certain amount of hocus-pocus,and I hestitae to use 904 ..

r~arch 21, 1978 Taoe 327 !) ~~ - 2 the word fradulent state- ~ent and so on,but a certain amount of deception, mis- leading information being given out to the public by the government ren~rding the Lower Churchill develon- ;:;ent. •:r. Speaker? Is that the reason he resianed? And he cannot tolerate that kind of attitude bv his political masters so the ~inister ~ight also indicate whether there is somebodv in the wings whom the minister or the aovernment would like to see take Mr. ~room's place. /HI HON. ~·1E~·!BEr.: Probablv a ne~., - ~ ·m . '.-!. '!.

Ftr1\·!E: So this time, Sir, can I make this humble beseechment on behalf of mv fellow ~!el''foundlanders: is th.,re an:;one in ~le\•,founc1land, ''r. Sneaker, good enough to take over the job as chairman of this corporation - ~1R. NEI\RY: Do we have to imoort someone? ~1 R • \.J. ~! . R 0 \•! E : or will we again import some-~ body and have to pav the kind of salary, Sir - f1R. PECKFORD: r1R. \·!.~I. RC\IE: f~R. PECKFORD: ~hat about Van Ess? He was brouo~t ~ere. van t s st wno 1s Mr. van Ess? on the stron g recommendation of the Leader of the Opposition. rR. SPEAKER: Order, olease.

It would arpear to me that the !Jrocec!ures under ''inisterial State~ents are being strained. ~~R. '-'.f! . RC':!E: Okc.''· "r. Speaker, I "ill simplv conclude with savina one ~ore resionation , cne a clay, who will it be tomorrow, why this resignation no~? No information by the minister and I hope, Sir, that some worthy Ne1·1foundlander can nO\•! be aopointed ' . to this very important post. ·~n.t ~100 ,"ooo a year - Th~. nk you, Sir. 905

''larch 21. 1<:.'73 Tape 327 0' 1 - 3 SfH'E HON. "E~·1 BEP.S: Hear, Hear! PRESENTING PETITIONS "1R. SPE/\KE~: Han. m~nber for LaPoile. ~,r. Speaker, I- !lave to apoli"ize to vour Ho~or, I was unable to get the orooer format to Grand Srui t. '\s Your !oonor kno\·'s. ~rand 3ruit is an isolated com~unit~ on the south- west part of the Province and it will take a little v1 ;, i 1 e for ~~ e r "a j e s t y ' s r.1 a i 1 to r e a c h G r a n d [3 r u i t , but this is the best thev could do. ~nd it is not a bad oetition, Your Hone~ so I hope Your Honor will be a little tolerant in r.1y tablin~ this petition.

It is addressed to ~e. "'.:e,the concerned. salmon fis~er- nan - and it is a federal matter too, Your Honor. so I want to ooint that out to the House ri9ht from the 11 out-set.- " \~e the concerned salmon fisherman of the fishing community of Grand Bruit would like to present to you at this time a petition concerning the salmon fisherv. t~e,the fisherman of this community 9 depend mainly on the fishery for a livina. This year they are takina five days away from us but there is going to be t r o u b 1 e about i t. ~J e \•1 ant the five d a.v s back again or oay the fisherman $1,000 a man for the five days lost.

If we do not "et five days back or rece~ve qaymerit ~or these five days, then vie are goin("J to put the nets out on '1ay 15th. reGard­ less:' And it is signed by fourteen fisherman in the community of Grand Bruit, all of ~1nom are Bil~.irds except one,who tis a :1r. tlcDonald. Anc· the others are all Billards and they are all good fishermen, Mr. Speaker, and they feel very strongly a~out this matter. ~hat is happeninq is that the federal government regulations 906

~~arch 21. 1973 Tane 327 f)~·! - 4 '~R. ~~EARY: ---- ~ 0 w for conservation purposes are takinr] av1ay five days from their salmon fisherv season. This is not the first petition I have had on this ~atte~ bv ~he wav, I had a petition fro~ the Rose ~ lanche. Harbour Le Cou. Diamond Cove, ryetites area on the sa~e matter some 907

Haren 21,1978 Tape No. j:.!lJ AH-1 aR. NEARY: time ago and I passed it on to the han. ~~. Jamieson and to the han. ar. Romeo LeBlanc,the federal Minister of Fisheries. These fishermen feel very strongly about this, Sir, and you can see from the wording of this particular petition , where they say they are going to put their nets in the water regardless if they do not get compensated for the time that they will lose in the salmon fishery which is very short as it is any way.

So, I do hope, Sir, that our own i'linister of Intergovenun .ental Affairs will take this petition and make representation on behalf of tne fishermen along the Southwest coast and strongly urge the Government of Canada, the feaeral dinister of Fisheries and the provincial .~nister of Fisheries to ~ry and remedy this situation, to rectify the situation, do whatever tl~ey can to try and resolve this problem for these fishermen along the Southwest coast, Sir, who are going to loose these five days.

The fishermen down in Grand Bruit.as I say have very strong feelings on tnis and tney are very civilized people in Grand £ruit, Sir, and the salmoLt fisi'Lery is a large part of their income, in tne co~unity of Grand Bruit and LaPoile. So I do hope, Sir, that sometning can be done either to compensate the fishermen or give them back their five days. ~JR. SPEAKER: ~JR. F. RlYWE : Hon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. Mr. Speaker, I would like to stand and speak in support of the petition presented by the member for LaPoile on behalf of fourteen fishermen of Grand Bruit.

Sir, the problem here is one basically of conservation of the salmon stock and the economy to the fishermen of this particular community,and it is a delicate balance as to when we should take days out of the actual salmon fishing season in order to protect the salmon stock. You have to balance that against an inco~e or the economy wortn approximately $14,000 to this particular community.

And I would, Sir, ask the rlinister of Intergovernmental Affairs and also the provincial Minister of Fisheries to contact their federal counterparts locally here in the Department of Fisheries in Pleasantville or on the Mainland in order to ascertain whether or not in fact these five 908

darch 21,1978 Tape No. 328 AH-2 ~1R. F. ROWE : uays taken out of the salmon season will make tnat much difference to the depletion of the salmon stock in this particular area. It is a very difficult decision that governments have to make, Sir, in trying to have this delicate balance between the economy and the saving of the fishermen through conservation of the salmon stock.and other species as well.

So, Sir, I do hope that we hear from some minister on the other side ·Intergovernmental Affairs or the "linister of Fisheries,indicating what he is prepared to do to make representation on behalf of these fourteen fishermen of Grand Bruit. PRESENTIN~ REPORTS BY STANDING AN:U SPECIAL COl'llHTThES i•ili.. SPEAKER: HR. ROUSSEAU: han. ~nister of Manpower and Industrial Relations. As acting Minister of Public Works the annual report to the Public Service Commission - AN HON. i:-iEHBEil.: You are back again,'Joe~ i~. ROUSSEAU: Back again. - and also tue copies of the information required under

Section lV of the Public Tender Act, the Act No. 6o of ~974 whicu lists all but other than the lowest tender which was tendered during the period January 1,1977 to December 31,1977. MR. SPEAKER: Hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. PECKFORD: I do not know if I am up under the right heading now or not. I want to table the report of the Rural Electricity Autnority Power Distritution District for the year ending March 31,1977. ;1R.. SPEAKER: MR.w.RUWE: ORAL QUESTIONS !:ion. Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, S09

}\arch 21, 1978 Tape 329 :r:c - 1 l1R. W. N. ROHE: !:he ambition, Sir, behind me here knows no bounds, grm,Jing daily. A question, Sir, for the hon. the Premier,if I can get the Premier's attention. He seems to be too interested in something else. Sir, in view of the fact that the 'linister of Hines and Energy Hould give no infornation <.;hatsoever on the reasons for the resignation, an important resignation, Sir, a resignation which Hill affect this Province for better or for r.;orse, would give no information on the resignation of l~r. Groon:, will the Premier indicate to the House if Mr.

Groom has given him any information, any indication as to <-7hy he resigned as the chief erecutive officer of Newfoundland and Labrador Hvdro? ~lR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. P~.E'!IE?.. ~IOO!lFS: ~'r. Speaker, yes, cbviously I have spoken to "r. Groom on the subject. The fact is that he has been made an offer by : very large and I think prestigious firm in Great Britain which is his right to announce and certainly not ours, and being a person who wants to further his career that is exactly ~.;hat '1r. Groom proposes to do.

And I am sure the Leader of the Opposition of all people would understand that ambition, :'-!r. Speaker. HR. !.J. N. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. 1-1. N. ROWE: What was that last little bit there? ~lR. F. ROWE: Surely you can understand what it is to rise. >'R. VJ. N. l'OHE: Oh, yes, I understand that. Sir, a supplementary on the subject of resignations. In vie,y of the fact that the Premier made a solenm pledge, a solid commitment to the P.C.

District Association of Grand Falls to resign if the hospital expansion in Grand Falls did not start this year, will the Premier indicate to the House when he intends to tender his resignation to the Lieutenant-Governor? SONE HON • )·IE!'JlERS : Hear, hear! 910

}larch 21, 1978 Tape 329 EC - 2 HR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREl!IER MOORES : Presently by leave, l~r. Speaker. S011E RON. 'mMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. H. N. POWE: Agreed. :1R. SPEAKER: The han. member for LaPoile followed by the han. member for Burgee -Bay d'Esooir. HR. NEARY: '1r. Speaker, I want to try to get some information from the ¥inister of Health in connection with legalizing denturists in this Province. Could the minister indicate i~ the denturists will be legalized in this calendar year in Ne~~foundland and Labrador? l·lR. SPEA.lGOR : The han. Minister of Health. MR. 1!.

COLLINS: Appropriate legislation "ill be presented to the House in due course, ~lr. Speaker. l!R. NEARY: A supplementary, Xr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. !'R. ~lEARY: Could the hon. minister indicate when, what year the legislation will he presented to the House? HR .• H. COLLINS: Last year - ~1R. NEAJ~Y: The han. gentleman, Sir, told us last year we were going to have appropriate legislation for the last session of the House. Will we have legislation in this session of the House - MR. H. COLLINS: Yes. HR. NEARY: - legalizing denturists? ~1R. H. COLLINS: Appropriate legislation. HR.

NEARY: This session? 1·;:R. H. COLLINS: This session. ~m. NEARY: The minister can stand up and tell the whole House. MR. H. COLLINS: You sit down and I will stand up. MR. NEARY: Sure. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MP. • H • COLLINS : I said, Hr. Speaker, we will have appropriate legislation in this session. 911.

!'!arch 21, 1978 HR. !rEARY: ~fR. SPEAKER: }'!t. ~TEARY: Tape 329 EC - 3 A supplementary question, !!r. Speaker. A supplementary. Would the hon. minister indicate to the House whether the denturists will be allowed to have any input in this legislation? Hill they have equal rights ~vith the 'le<rfoundlar.d Dental Society? ~!ot any more or less, but equal rights, and have they been consulted, ~vill they be consulted? l.Jil'!. they )!et a copv of the legislation so that they can look it over? Have any meetings been asked for by the denturists, and if so has the minister agreed to meet with the denturists? !lR. R.

COLLINS: Why did you not write me? AN RON. JdEMBER: Oh, come on. !lR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. ~ffi. H. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I have given the House information to the effect that appropriate legislation '~ill be presented in this session. I am not about to go into what it might or might not contain at this particular time. The legislation,~~hen it is rrepared, will be presented to the House and everybody will have the opportunity to read it and there will be an opportunity for debate. ~~. NFA'RY: A supplementary question, ~fr. Speaker. AN RON. MEMBER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. ~.

SPF~R: A supplementary by the original questioner. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman asked me why I have not written him. I have tJritten the questions on the Order Paper and I have forty questions on the Order Paper so far addressed to the han. gentleman and not an answer yet, and the House has been sitting three weeks. SO~'E HON. MEHBERS : ~!R. 'lEARY : HR. H. COLLINS: HR. NEARY: Oh, oh! l-Ie have the whole department tied un! He will get back to you after a while. Hr.

Speaker, I just want the hon. gentleman to indicate to the House, Sir, Whether or not the denturists have asked for a meeting with the minister, and if so, has the minister granted the Denturist Association an audience to date? 912

:·larch 21 , 1978 Tape 329 EC - 4 MR. H. COLLINS: ~rr. Speaker, we have had numerous meetings over the past couple of years with the den turlsts and also with the Dental ASsociation, the Medical Association and other interested groups . Before the legislation is tabled in the House certainly ~e will be going back to the appropriate agencies aRain. ~I'R . NOL~l: A surplementary, ~!t . Speake-r . ~!R . SPEn:KER: A supplementary by the hon. me~bet for Conception Bay South . HR. ~!OLAN: '!r.

Speaker, in view of the fact that the ~linis ter of Health in answer to a 'luestion from me,anrl from others I might say, in the last session of the Rouse of Asse~ly, stated t ha t he would brin g in a legisla tion on the dentu r ists 1n the last session . I can only assume surely, acceptin~ the ministe r' s word , that somethin~ ·o~as wrong '~h ich he neve r gave any reason fo t. 'ow there fore, if the ministe r misled the ~ouse surel y he has no choice but to resi~. Hear, hear! !. 913

'!arch ZO, 1978 Tape ~o. 330 MN - 1 MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! That question was out of order. It was not a question. l1R.. SINHONS: Mr. Sreaker, I would like to get back to the matter of the resignation, or the alleged resignation of Mr. Groom from Hydro. Would the Premier indicate to the House whether there was in fact a letter or resignation from Hr. Groom, and the date of the resignation if there was one? Or did he get the flick as he should have, Mr. Speaker? HR. SPEAKER: The hen. Premier. PRE}!IER l-!OORES : Hr. Speaker, it was not alleged but it was verbal. HR. Sllfl'!ONS: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the original questioner. MR. WHITE: A $90,000 a year job and no letter. HR. Siill!ONS: l1r. Speaker, I understand from the Premier there is no writte~ resignation at this point in time, Did the resignation indeed come about, or the parting of company come about as a result of the attractive offer? How it can be more attractive than the present position I do not know, Mr. Speaker. ~!R.. ROBERTS: It has to be a - ~!R. SU!HONS: Did it come about as a result of his mere attractive offer or did he in effect get the flick?

Did the Premier or the minister ask him to vacate the position,as they certainly should have? MR. SPEAKER: The hen. Premier. Ptti!;MIER ~!OORES: Hr. Speaker, there was certainly no question of the government asking, or any member of the government asking Hr. Groom for his resignation. It was quite the reverse. He came and saw me, he saw the minister and said that this was the situation. And something that probably, Hr. Speaker, the hen. gentleman would not . ; appreciate,but we do take a man at his word. MR. SIMMONS: I am trying to. 914

:'larch 21, 1978 Tape No. 330 ml- 2 rffi. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. member for LaPoile. AN HON, MElfBER: Grand Falls. MR. ROWE: A man of his word . HR. NEARY: Can the hon. the Premier assure this House that before Hr. Groom departs for overseas to his new position where he is going to be promoted, moving ahead in life, would the hon. Premier assure this House that any outstanding amounts that are due the Newfoundland Hydro in the way of interest free loans to purchase real estate, and that sort of thing, that all these matters will be tidied up and all the money will be recovered before Hr.

Groom gets aboard the aircraft headed for Shannon or London or wherever he is going? liR. SPEA..'<ER: The hon. Premier. PREHIER HOORES: Hr. Speaker, obviously whatever legal obligations are outstanding will be done in the proper way and certainly from this side of the tiouse I would like to make it very clear that ~!r. Groom whilst he has been subject to a great deal of criticism which is obvious for anyone, or likely for anyone in charge of a hydro corporation, the fact is that from our part at least we wish him good luck and bon voyage. 1IR. SPEAKER: The hon, member for Burin -Placentia West. MR. CANNING: Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the }linister of Health. I am referring to a statement made by him in this House last ye~r after he had met with a delegation from the Burin Peninsula Regional Hospital Committee and, ~rr.

Speaker, here in the House the minister made the following statement, speaking of the progress made to .~ards the planning of the hospitc.l the minister went on to say in this House, to inform the House, he aaid, "The Committee was informed by me that the date given at this time for the completion of the detailed plans and specifications," he is referring to the regional hospital, "was the Fall of 1977." And my question, Mr. Speaker, is have those plans and specifications been completed as then promised to the Committee and stated to this House on that date? 915

:·!arch 21, 1978 Tape ~o. 330 :m - 3 :·iR. SPEAKER: The hen. :-linister of Health. ~!R. a. COLL:U'lS: Mr. Speaker, I presume the hon. member is referring to something which was said in 1977- that was the calendar year of '77? :·1R. CA.\1U~G: That is from Hansard of April 5th., 1977, last year . ~IR. H. COLLINS: 1977. UR . C&'INING: Your commicment to the House and co the committee. NR . IL COLLDIS: The meeting to "''~' ich the hon . member refers did take place with the citizens col!llllittee from the Peninsula -I 916

MARCH 21, 1973, Tape 331, Page 1 -- apb MR. H. COLLINS: refers did take place with the Citizen's Committee from the peninsula and a statement was made in the House that it was hoped that the planning could have been finished at a particular time. I do not have the information, I do not have the benefit of Hansard as the hon. member does.

I think it is a well known fact to all of us, Sir, that last year with the restraints programme, not only did we defer further planning for hospitals, but at the same time we took the position of closing some beds,and planning for the Burin Peninsula Hospital, the Port aux Basques Hospital, the Placentia Hospital and Clarenville Hospital was deferred at that time. MR. SPEAKER: The hon.member for Baie Verte - White Bay. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture, and it refers to this advertisement that has been in the papers the last few days regarding the occupation of crown lands.

I wonder if the minister could tell the House whether or not, in fact- especially as number two goes, "Anyone taking possession of Crown lands following Janu<7ry 1, 1977" - I wonder if the minister could tell the House whether or not his department took the courtesy of sending the relative legislative and information on to town councils in the Province so they would not issue permits for people to occupy lands within their boundaries after that date? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minster of Forestry and Agriculture. MR. MAYNARD: Yes, Mr. Speaker, the information was sent out to the town councils at the 917

March 21, 1978, Tape 331, Page 2 -- apb MR. MAYNARD: time the legislation was passed, the rules and regulati?ns were again sent out a few days ago bringing to their attention that they should not issue permits within the town council boundaries on crown land unless a permit was first received. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. The original questioner. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, the minister indicated in his answer that the legislation was sent out when it was passed which I believe was two years ago, 1976.

I want to know whether or not the councils were informed when the legislation was proclaimed and were they informed when charges would be laid under his act? And as the minister indicated in his answer also, I understand, this was only done two or three days ago. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. MR. MAYNARD: The information was supplied to the town councils of various municipalities in the Province when the legislation was passed.

I did not say that the legislation itself was sent out to them but the information was supplied to them and we reinforced it again a few days ago with another letter to all municipalities in the Province. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. The original questioner. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the minister would tell the House whether or not it is a fact that municipalities in the Province have issued permits to residents to build on Crown lands within their boundaries since January l, 1977, and whether or not it is a fact that some of these residents have now been taken before court, tried and convicted and fined $200? 918

March ll, 1978, Tape 331, Page 3 -- apb The hon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. MR. MAYNARD: The first part of the question; I know that town councils and municipalities have issued permits to build without the applicant having a valid Crown Lands lease or grant. Whether any of the people who built have been taken to court I do not know.I would have to find that out. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary. The original questioner,then the han. member for Carbonear. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the seriousness of this matter, and in view of the obvious bureaucratic mess that has gone on here, 'r wonder would the minister undertake t.o postpone the execution date, I suppose is the right way to put it, of March 31 and put it off for a couple of months so that people will have a chance to register their applications for deeds and so on? Let us not be so fussy to take people to court. 919 • f.

Marcn 21,1978 Tape No. 332 Ali-1 ,•JR. SPEAK1R: Hen. minister. MR. dAYl'ti\RD : No, Mr. Speaker, I will not postpone the date, fllere w!'ls ample opportunity ~-iven by everyone over the past few years to know these dates, They were publisued in the papers at various time. I w-ill not put off the date. ~o! i.'JR. SPEAKER: hK. i100RES: cion. member for Carbonear. Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the hon. Hi.nister of Social Services and si1ortly

preamble it by saying that about two weeks ago there was peruaps one of the most major and most significant conferences in terms of Canadian Social Services held in Canada. The minister attended that conference representing the Government of Newfoundland and to date he has given no report to either the media or this House. My question to the minister is why not? i'lR. J.UDEOUT: t1R. SP&u.:ER: MR. llRETT: He had not got anyoody to write it for him, lion. Minister of Social Services. Hr. Speaker, I attenued that conference in Ottawa and there were two major items discussed.

One was block funding and the other was the proposed legislation by the federal government on the young offenders. I have never given a report to the Rouse - I do not think that is usually done-however,as far as I know I did report to the media. In any case, Hr. Speaker, whether I did or not L do not think that it was mandatory that I should report to the media.upon my return. MR. SPEAKER: HR. ~!OORES: A supplementary. The bon. member for Carbonear. l1r. Speaker, is it implicit by the minister's silence that the conference was not of public significance? Is that wnat the minister is sayiug? i1R. SPF.AKER: i•ill..

BRETT: Hon. Minister. Hr. Speaker, of course the conference was important and of major significance and I think that everybody who wants to know is aware of the fact that block funding was accepted at that meeting ill Ottawa. I do not wish to go into the technical details of what block funding is all about. There was no decision 920

P J..:.· Haren 21,197b Tape No. 33l AH-2 i1R. BRETT: made on the proposed legislation, The Young Offenciers Act, and again I was talking to the media on that. I indicated before I went to Ottawa and after I returned that we, this government, this Province were opposed to some sections of the new legislation and the federal government agreed to take a second look at it. But I do not tnink there will be any decision made on tl~t new legislation until after our next meeting which will be in Nova' Scotia sometime :ill. September.

But as for block funding 1 if the bon, membeL for Carbonear (Hr, ~loores) wants a report of course I can tuke up the rest of the Question Period,if that is what you like. Host people are aware tnat block funding is replacing tne Canada Assistance Plan and it is under this plan that the Social Services is funded, For some years now, ~tr.

Speaker, all of the Provinces have been looking for changes in the Social Services legislation mainly because we would like to ; ... .ve .uore autonomy, I would say, in bringing in o ... r programmes,because uuder CAP every time we want to intraduce a new programme we l~ve to go to Ottawa to get permission. Sometimes they will not fund programmes and we find this to be very confusing. Of course under block funding we will have autonomy and we will be able to bring in wnatever programmes we desire.

The technical details are rather long and I will not go into them,but I will say that this Province stands to gain approximately $1 million this year and over a period of twenty years I think is the period when they will bring us up to the national average, we will gain many millions of dollars. The exact amount I do not have but certainly block funding will mean that we will have much more autonomy in the Social Services and also we stand to ~ain several millions of dollars. HR. SPEAKER: Hon. member for Fogo. i:-ill.. NEARY: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: One supplementary and then the bon. member for Fogo. 921

l1arch 21,1978 Tape No. 332 Ah-3 ~:R. NEARY: ~!r. Speaker, would the hon. minister repeat to the House wbether block funding means that the money that is coming from Ottawa goes into the general revenue of the Province or is it earmarked for projects in the Department of Social Services? Can it be controlled? If there is a saving,for instance, if the minister decides to save,to take it out of the nides of the poor people,will the s'avings be passed on to some other depart;uent, go oack to general revenue, be spent on highways or lle spent on helicopt:ers or airplanes or action groups?

Could that happen/ Could money ti~t is now being spent - if this Province gets control under this block funding, could the money be funneled into other department of government? Is there any safeguard against that? HR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. dR. BRETT: There is no safeguard as such, ~rr. Speaker, t<le 111oney will go into general revenue. But as the hon. member says anytning can happen. He was almos~ elected leader of tne Liberal Party, that almost happened, so I guess anything can happen.

But I would assume that any government, and I do not want to be partisan, out I would assume that any government that is in power will spend that money in the Social Services because everyone is aware of the fact that every province will have to get more heavily into the Social Services. Not necessarily more spending 1 but we have to come up with new services and while it is true that it will go into general revenue I would still like to think that it will be spent in the Social Services and not on buying helicopters or paving roads. 922 f.

March 21, 1978 Tape 333 PK - 1 MR. SPEAKER: I will recognize the hon. gentleman for Fogo. CAPT. E. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the hon. Minister of :::'orestry and Agriculture. Would the minister explain or tell the House whether the fishermen along the Northeast coast- and I would assume fishermen in other parts of Newfoundland who have Summer cabins on the islands- are they subject to the same regulation and restriction in making application in paying $25 for application to occupy those cabins during the fishing season? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. MR. MAYNARD: Mr.

Speaker, the notice that was put out referred to people who want to acquire title for land under the so-called squatter's rights provision, and these are people who have permanently occupied land for some period of time; and people who have not occupied land for a certain period of time are required to make an application before March 31. It has never been applied to the fishing cabins that are normally used along the Coast of Newfoundland, as these are pretty well all temporary structures and no one has ever bothered with them to my knowledge. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary? I am sorry.

I thought the hon. member had risen on a supplementary. The bon. member for Terra Nova followed by the member for Eagle River. MR. T. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, a question to the Minister of Labour and Manpower, and this was a question that I asked the minister a couple of days ago, but because of the expiration of the Question Period the han. members were denied the minister's answer. And the question is in reference to the strike situation at Labrador City, and in view of the fact that one of the reasons given for the strike by the workers has to do with the company's 923 • i I

March 21, 1978 Tape 333 PK - 2 Mr. Lush: policy of contracting out, and in view of the fact that the Bartlett inquiry made some reocmmendations respecting contracting out, the question to the minister is, I wonder if the minister can indicate to the House just when the government intends to implement the major recommendations of the Bartlett inquiry? MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROUSSEAU: The hon. Minister of Labour and Manpower. Mr.

Speaker, just first of all to put the strike in Labrador City in perspective,there is the question of health and safety, the question of contracting out, the monetary package, and forty other issues on the table at the moment, unfortunately.There are a lot of issues. I do not think that the forty issues would be difficult to overcome once the main health and safety for Labrador City and contracting out for Sept Iles.

I think these are the two major issues in each area, although they influence both areas, and where the monetary package is settled the other forty will flow,I would hope And as hon. members must be aware I have ordered both sides back to the table and they will be meeting tomorrow in Labrador City or Sept Iles. I do not know the area yet because there is a joint co-ordination on the negotiations up there.

In respect to the Bartlett Commission report,we have held a number of series of meetings with the unions and the companies, and I have a senior official of my department meeting with other companies in the area outside the mining companies because obviously I am unable to meet with all 125 companies, 120 or 125 companies,to get their reaction to it. We have met with the company. We had a number of things that should be ongoing but unfortunately because of the strike they have been held up.

I made a statement a couple of weeks ago about puchasing on the Island part of the Province as well as in Labrador in respect to the Iron Ore Company of Canada and Wabush Mines. I have been given certain other commitments with them. As I understand it1 the Iron 924 • I ·;

MaLCh 21, 1-978 Tap e 333 PK - 3 Mr. Rousseau: Ore Company .of Cap.ada has now appointed a purchasing agent in. Labrador City which they did no~: before have. Wabush Hines als.o has ;a gentleman to travel back and forth, and if the volume is large enough they will loo.k at. the same possibility.

There a't'e a number of other statements that can be made on it, but, you know, with the strike the thing has been he l d up, The advertisments that were suppose to be put in the paper, · which I said in my statement were to be put in the paper by the Iron Ore Company of Canada,we.re held up pending the end of the strike , Spme problems associated with the strike have caused action not to ha~e been take.n and it should be taken as soon as the strike is over , which I hope is in a short time. We will contiilue to review that, bu-t the strike has kind o.f overtaken the thing now. MR. LUSH: A supplemootary . 925

March 21, 1978 Tape No. 334 NM- 1 1-IR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. HR. LUSH: I thank the minister for his answer and we are delighted to know that there will be action taken with respect to these recommendations. But the minister mentioned also that one of the reasons - that there were many reasons given for the strike. It seems as though in the media there are two given, one for contracting out and the other one that he just referred to, health and safety measures, and it appears that legislation is necessary to take the necessary measures to include this into an agreement.

And I am led to believe that the government is contemplating le6islation with respect to health and safety, so can the minister indicate when he intends bringing this legislation into the House, particularly in view of the fact that there is another strike contingent upon this, that is the one at Baie Verte, so we now have 2,500 workers on strike contingent upon this health and safety measures. NR. SPEAKER: MR. ROUSSEAU: The hen. Minister of Labour and Manpower. I think I am going to hold it off. I hope to be making a statement within the next few days.

I will not take up the rest of the question period but I can say this, and I think we should say this, that in 1976- because I am in a very difficult >~ituation and the government is now - in 1976 there was a confP.T"Pnr .. on occupational health and safety, There were six members elected from the management across the Province, there were six members elected from unions across the Province and there was an independent chairman appointed.

That was called the Interim Advisory Board on :Jccupational Health and Safety. !low they have asked me, and I have asked government,that we not take action on occupational health and safety until they have had the opportunity to review it. I have said yes, if the unions across the Province, of if management across the Province do not want that representative democratically elected body in 926 ~ .

~larch 21, 19 7 8 Tape No. 334 !ill - 2 HR. ROUSSEAU: the October 1976 conference to portray their views in respect to occupational health and safety, I am prepared immediately to reassess that Advisory Committee. And I have a problem right now: We have a draft act on my desk now as a result of meetings of the Interim Advisory Council a couple of days ago, a special meeting to look at this act; they have made a few changes in it, and government will take a look at it. Now I hope that tl1at act will be in in this session of the House.

But if management and the unions across the Provi~ce want to take a look at it then it is not going to be in this session of the House because by the time they get it and take a look at it then we are not going to have the opportunity to present it in this session of the House. If the unions say yes, the six people will represent us, and pretty well goes for all unions across the Province are reoresented, and if management say_ yes, the people on the management areas represent us, then we can do it in this session of the House.

I have talked to the Steelworkers in my area, which is a big area, I intend to talk to the people in Baie Verte and explain it to them. If they are not satisfied with this situation then I am prepared to look again at the Interim Advisory Committee and start doing thing in an ad hoc manner that I do not think would be the right way to do it. I would rather do it all in a lump sum and have the whole thing set out with reaction from both union and management through this committee. :YIR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Eagle River. ~. STRACIL\..'l: Mr.

Speaker, as you are aware, the people in Central Labrador and specifically the Happy Valley - Goose Bay area over the last two years have suffered a great deal from the shut down of Gull Island the first time and the shut down of Labrador Linerboard with the major exodus from there, plus last year's sinking of the William Carson , which threw a great deal of the companies into 927 h - I I

March 21, 1978 Tape No. 334 NM - 3 ~m. STRACHfu~: a tailspin. The people have been holding on, believing that the area will develop, it will move, and that Gull Island will go ahead this year and there have been some mutterings to that effect. I would like to ask the Premier whether he can indicate to the people definitively,yes or no, 'vhether any major work will start in the Gull Island area this year so that people will know exactly what to gear up for since they are now starting looking at the short shipping season and trying to arrange supplies or decide exactly where their businesses should head? MR.

SPEAKER: The han. Premier. PREHIER HOORES: Mr. Speaker, obviously before any <York can start on the Gull Island project, agreements for the sale of the power and the method of that sale will have to be drawn up and although legal documentation entered into. That will obviously take a considerable length of time,and even if every system is go and everyone working full time on it,the earliest that it could start would be this Fall or more likely early in 1979. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Bellevue. ~m. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, my question again is for the Hinister of Tourism.

In view of the fact that on the February 25th. weekend the Minister of Tourism said that he hoped that the testing programme would be completed by mid-April,and then following the completion by mid-April that the testing teams would go back over ground already covered to give people a second chance who had failed the test, in view of these facts when does the minister expect that 928

!'larch 21, 19 78 Tape 335 EC - 1 MR. CALLAN: the testing programme will be completed and also when will people be in a position to apply for big game licences? ~,Till they be able to apply in time to plan their holidays and so on? ~1R. SPEAKER: The han. Ninister of Tourism. MR. l!ORGft.N : ?1r. Speaker, the answer to the first question depends on the weather and the answer to the second question in due time. ~~r. Speaker, a SUPplementary. HR. SPEAKER: A supplementary by the hon. member for Conception Bay South. >~. }TOLAN: A question for the l-'inister of Tourism on the same subject.

I wonder if the minister would be ~ood enough to inform the House '~hether the hon. the Premier and other people who are entitled to special licences will have to pass the same tests as ordinary people in this Province? SOME P.ON. ~®filERS: Hear, helrr! mt. SPEAk"EP: The hon. minister. ?'[!: • ~'ORGA.~: Mr. Speaker, there are only ~·o gentlemen entitled to complimentary licences that I recall, the former Premier and the present Premier. Knowing the present Premier, he is a very sharp shooter as a hunter and as a politician. SO~ HON. ME"J\ERS: Hear, hear! llut aiso, Nr.

Speaker, the former Premier - I am not too sure whether he has fired a gun in his life or not - but the Lieutenant-~-overnor of the Province, I am of the opinion he is also a very sharp shooter. ORDERS 0~ THF. DAY HR. SPEA.XER: The motion is that I leave the Chair. Those in favour, 'Aye' , contrary, 'Nay' , carried. ~m. CHAI~~: (Dr. Collins) Order, please! The hon. }linister of ¥ines and Energy. MR. STI1MONS: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. 929

tfarch 21. 19 78 ~!R. CHAIR}I.AN: (Dr. Collins) MR. SINMONS: Tape 335 EC - 2 A point of order. Hr. Chairman, the tradition at least in this Committee has heen for the speakers to switch from one side to the other. We have already had a speaker from the Opposition side, Hr.

Chairman, in the person of the Leader of the Opposition, and we had a speaker yesterday in the person of the ~finister of ~ines and Energy. llnlil:e in the House, a member cannot adjourn the debate, and so ,as I understand it, the ~linister of !lines and Energy in sittin r. do~vn hacl forfeited his opportunity to continue and must now get the recognition of the Chair the same as any other han. member. And I would subll'it, ~·!r. Chairman, that it would only be fair now to recognize a member from the Opposition side, beside which, }!r.

Chairman, I might mention that I had risen considerably before the Hinister of Hines and Energy. SOl!E l'ON. l1ElffiERS: l!R. CHAIH}!A~;: Hear, hear! The hon. House Leader. !·lost assuredly that is not a point of order. "The hon. member is fully aware that it is totally and absolutely •nthin the discretion of the Chair in Committee following adjournment in coming back the next day to recognize any hon. me111.ber '~ho rises, and he recognized the han. the Minister of Mines and Energy. And I thought things have been going very well.

We had a lengthy address yesterday by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition and seven minutes by the hon. the ~inister of }!ines and Energy, and I commend the Chair on its fairness and equity . }f!'.. F, ROI>'E: to this point of order. ~- IR. C:HAI R'!.J\N : Bay de Verde. MP.. F. ROHE: ~r. Chairman, if I may address myself The hon. the ~ember for Trinit y - llr. Chairman, I would like to remind the House sitting on the government side that two years ago a precedent was set where I, myself,was speaking in Committee stage at 6:00 F. l•.

I was not finished what I had to say and when I returned in the evening to resume my speech, the hon. gentleman, the very gentleman who just 930

'!arch 21, 1978 Tape 335 :o:c - 3 HR. F. ROHE: spoke to that point of order, rose in his seat before me and ~~as recognized because I did not adjourn the debate and he •~as first on his feet,as was my colleague from Burgee - Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons). "!R.

PECKFORD: Well, to that point of order; as I understand the situation as put forward by the Government House Leader, the points that he has made,additionally, I would just like to say, Hr. r.hairman, that if my hearing vias correct, and I t~ink. it "as. the Chair did recognize me •vhen I stood, and therefore I take it that there is no point of order and that therefore I am entitled to speak. Iffi. CHAIRHAN: (Dr. Collins) Order, please! I think I have heard sufficient arguments on the point. I think the matter is reasonably clear.

As the Committee •.Jill recognize, the Committee is not constituted in terms of our tradition until the ~ace is under the table, and I do not consider that it is my place to call order until the 1'~ace is so placed. On this occasion I did wait until the Mace was placed and I called order. On that occasion there were two members on their feet - I am aware of that - although I did not pay particular attention to either one of them until that time. I would direct hon. me~bers' attention to Standing Orders No. 47 and 48.

Number 47 reads: "Every member desiring to speak is to rise in his place uncovered and address himself to ~'r. Speaker." This, I presume, also applied to Committee, so for Committee one would say, 'l'r. Chairman'. And number 48: "Hhere ttro or more members rise to speak, ~lr. Speaker calls upon the member who first rose in his place, but a motion may be made that any member who has risen be now heard or do nmv speak, which r.Jotion shall be forthHith put without debate.'' When two members are on their feet at the one time, I am in the invidious position of having to call on one.

I did so do and I called on the han. Minister of Hines and Ener~. As han. members ..n.11 recognize, there are means of taking action if it is so desired, but until such time as that is done I am recognizing the hon. Yinister of Mines and Energy. 931.

March 21. 1978, Tape 336, Page 1 -- apb MR. PECKFORD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you very much. I recognize the - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Shame: Shame: MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! I am assuming that the word 'shame' is directed against the hon. minister and not against the Chairman of the Committee. Because this, of course, would be entirely out of order and it could not be allowed to pass. The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. PECKFORD: Mr. Chairman, thank you very much for your ruling. I appreciate having the opportunity to continue my remarks.

As I began them yesterday,I think I had just begun my remarks, Mr. Chairman, in response to some allegations and accusations made against this side of the House as it related to the ongoing programmes of government, as it related to the Budget and Interim Supply,and I think I was making the point, Mr. Chairman, that I was astounded by the lack of concern displayed in the remarks of the Leader of the Opposition as they related to rural development in this Province and as they related to fisheries. As I remember it, Mr. Chairman, the Leader of the Opposition began speaking yesterday.

He spoke for over an hour, perhaps an hour and-a-half or more,and in all that period of time, in which he said he wanted to address himself to the concerns of the Budget in general rather than just Interim Supply, he refused in all that time to make any direct indication of the Opposition's views as they related to fisheries - he never even mentioned fisheries - and the Oppositions views as they related to rural development. As most hon. gentlemen in this House, and most people in the Province know, Mr. Chairman, the two main thrusts of 932 ~ ' I

March 21, 1978, Tape 336, Page 2 -- apb MR. PECKFORD: this administration since 1972· have been primarily in these two areas o~ government, and that we consider that i~ this Province is to have a real chance to survive in the long-term we must now divert whatever kinds o~ dollars we can muster, both capital and current, and put them into those resource departments that will most e~~ectively give us a good return and which are most natural to the quality o~ li~e in this Province. Hence, nobody can deny and challenge that both ~isheries and rural development ~it into those two categories extremely well. Mr.

Chairman, it is an interesting comparison, yea! not really a comparison at all, but a contrast to look at the staggering growth that has. occurred ~inancially in the resource departments since this administration took o~fice in 1972. Su~~ice it to say, ~or example, Mr. Chairman, that in 1971, the last year of the ancient regime, the last year o~ the Liberal Party, the last year o~ the hon. crowd opposite, many o~ whom are still the leaders o~ that party, that in that year,l971, that they could only muster up $3 million to put into rural development. It was not called then, Mr.

Chairman, the Department o~ Rural Development, they did not recognize even in words the great concern that most New~oundlanders had at the time towards building up their communities. They were more concerned in consolidating communities and hence the department at that point in time was called the Department of Community and Social Development and it was that department, Mr. Chairman, which wanted to move people out of small communities in this Province, who by doing that were really, and this is why, of course - it was all part of a deliberate policy - why they could 933

March 21, 1978, Tape 336, Page 3 -- apb MR. PECKFORD : not put too much money in fisheries. Because the overall plan,as designed by planners that were brought in here and paid substantial sums of money, was to consolidate the population of Newfoundland. They wished to evacuate effectively Placentia Bay. They had on the list many of the communities now comprising the Leader of the Opposition's district. They wanted to, for example, eliminate some of the islands in my own constituency of Green Bay.

One of the most viable - and I will challenge any hon. member on any side of the House to contradict this statement - one of the most viable communities in this Province today happens to be the community of Little Bay Islands in the district of Green Bay. There is an employment problem in Little Bay Islands; they do not have enough people for the jobs that are there on Little Bay Islands. It is that kind of community that the Opposition at t~~ ti~e wanted to centralize, to move into Springdale, move in the bottom of Halls Bay, to move somewhere else to further their own ends.

Hence, one it not surprised at all, Mr. Chairman, to find that $3 million was allotted in 1971 and that that figure has now gone up five times. In the present year we will be spending in rural development, in the Department of Rural Development,$15 million, five times, fivefold. And what have we done? Not only have we scrapped, Mr.

Chairman, the whole question of resettlement, the whole question of centrlization, we have indicated through a Rural Development Authority which was established by this administration that not only will we eliminate and allow the people 1 "allow" the people to stay where they now live, but we will provide incentives so that they will be able to get a living where they live. 934

March 2l, 1978, Tape 336, Page 4 -- apb MR. PECKFORD: In other words, instead of trying to get them and attract them away, not only will we eliminate that programme, 935

:-larch 21, 1978 Tape No. 337 :-~a - 1 :·!R. PECKFORD: but we will implement programmes to ensure that they will stay where t:1ey are.

That one of the major tenets that anybody today in Newfoundland recognizes is that if Newfoudland is going to have the chance to survive it has to be in rural Newfoundland, it has to be based on the fishery, it has to be cased on the forestry, it has to be based on those areas of Newfoundland which have an agricultural opportunity, for example, like the Cormack area, lilce the Codroy Valley, like a small part of Green Bay, like Nusgravetown­ Buchans does not have a very large agricultural thing, there was a study done on it- llusgravetown area, Lethbridge area, and also on the Avalon Peninsula.

But let us, put our money where it can do the most good. Let us not be, ar. Chairman, silly enough to provide an agricultural programme by a subsidiary DREE agreement which allows for substantial sums of money to go in areas that do not have a very high agricultural promise or potential. Let us put our money where there is a real good chance of success in agricultural. And one of the failures over the last number of years by both governments,in some instances, has been to try to standardize agricultural policy geographically.

In other words, no matter where you live in the Province that you could qualify, whether it was on rock or on clay or on loam or whatever, for the same funds. And I think that that is a fairly substantial waste of money. In any case, Mr.

Chairman, my point being simply that in talking about what this administration is doing for resource development, talking about the thrust that we have been taking over the last six or seven years, which reflects itself again both in Interim Supply and in the Budget Speech, we are continuing to increase the amount of sums of money that have been provided in the resource departments to ensure that where people live now in rural Newfoundland they will have a chance to make a decent livelihood. 936

Harch 21, 1978 Tape No. 337 HR. PECKFORD: Hr. Chairt!lan, one need only ask any Newfoundlander to go to many of the people who have obtained loans and grants and so on, federal/provincial as well as totally provincial, under the Rural Development Programme, and they can easily attest to the success of this programme.

There are many sawmill operators today, there are many pulpwood contractors today, there :-.'N - 2 are many cabinet makers today, there are many handicraft makers today, who would not be in business and employing three or four or five individuals, had it not been for the kinds of programmes that have been brought in under the nmJ Department of Rural Development that came into effect because of this administration.

Gone from $3 million to $15 million, five times an increase in one single department,and at the same time eliminating that curse that everybody reco~izes as a curse of centralization, conceived down in the bottom floor of this building by people who knew no more about Newfoundland than I know about the other side of the moon, people who were brought in and paid fat salaries that this administration had~o get rid of when it came into power. In Fisheries, }fr. Chairman, just look at the difference in Fisheries.

This year $24 million to $25 million, as opposed to $4 million. $4 million in 1971, that is the kind of priorities that the Liberal Party of Newfoundland had as it related to the fishery. They wanted everybody tc burn their boats and they were going to provide a couple of jobs for every man. That W'as enunciated by the Leader of the Liberal Par~y 0f the day. ~nd it has been a real difficulty for the Opposition to adjus t from a fishe~J orientated - SQ;!E HON. !IENBERS: Oh, oh! MR. PECKFORD: - to a fishery orientated society, which we have succeeded in doing. 937

~!arch 21, 1978 Tape :~o . 337 :IR. PECKFORD: A~ the present ti.me this administration is in the process of building several large longliners around the Province , being built by Newfoundlanders 1which in the first instance provides employment now ar.d more importantly in the long term will provide the kind of catching ca?abilicy,inshore and cid-water,our fishercen ~eed.

The most prosperous pa~ts of Newfoundland today are runl Newfoundland and with the 200 mi.Le limit, with the kind of stimulus in the Fisheries budge t and in the Rur al Development budget that we continue to give to it, hopefully it •.Jill succeed . But, ~lr . Chaircan, it has to be recognized by everybody, acd I think it is recognized by people in rural Ne\Ofoundlan d more than in t he semi-urban centres, that somewhere,if you continue to provide that kind of level of financial assistance.then 938

March 21, 1978 Tape 338 PK - 1 Mr. Peckford: you do it to the detriment of stablizing some of your social programmes,at least in the interim,until those resource orientated programmes provide the new dollars to continue on again with your social programme~ co provide more money for education construction or for education in general, and to health, and to social services and all the rest, but it. is not done without a price. There has to be a price. And, Mr.

Chairman, if I have to articulate that the price must be a stablization of social programmes in the short term and put what money we have into the resource sector,I would rather take that alternative because it is all relevant than take the other alternative as was reflected in the remarks of the Leader of the Opposition in which even he did not get into economy activity or resource development. I would rather take that alternative than take the other one of continuing to pork-barrel the social programmes,needed though they are, needed though they are,to the detriment of the resource programmes.

We have had enough of that, and now it is time for us to readjust our priorities and put our money as much as we can into resource development.

That is to say, there will still be- I am only saying that the rate of increase in the social programmes will be less, I am not saying there will not be any increase in the Education budget; I am not saying there will not be any increase in the Social Services budget or the Health budget or the Recreation budget, but the rate of increase of those budgets will be limited, will be less, Where they were 12 per cent or 14 per cent they will now be 6 per cent or 5 per cent, and that in return the money will go into the resource departments to try to provide the new dollars because that is the only way that it can be done.

So in the Fisheries Department we have gone to $24 million from $4 million, a six times increase, a sixfold increase. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I move that the Committee rise and report progress and ask leave to sit again. MR. PECKFORD: Mr. Chairman, to continue. 939

March 21, 1978 Tape 338 MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! A motion to rise is always in order. It is moved that the Committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again. All those in favour "Aye". SOME HON. MEMBERS: "Aye". MR. CHAIRMAN: Contrary "Nay". SOME HON. MEMBERS: "Nay". MR. CHAIRMAN: I would say that the "Nays" have it. MR. PECKFORD: AN HON. MEMBER: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. CHAIRMAN: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. Mr. Chairman, to continue, it was a sixfold - The "Nays" have it? A standing vote, Mr. Chairman. A standing vote is requested.

You cannot have a standing vote in Committee. The question will be put again. It has been moved that the Committee rise, report progress, and ask leave to sit again. All those in favour signify by rising in their places. And I would indicate that those members who may have entered since the question was originally put should not stand or if they so wish should leave the Committee. All those in favour rise in their places. All those against signify by rising in their places. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

PK -2 I think that this procedure should be clearly understood and accordingly I will ask members to signify again, that is, that those members who signify in favour of the motion should rise in their place, and this applies to those members who voted originally in favour, that is, those who were in Committee at the time. Following that I will ask those who are against the motion to signify by standing in their places, and similarly this applies to those members who originally voted against the question when it was put on a verbal basis,- and therefore applies to those members who were in Committee at the time.

Now I would ask those who are in favour of the motion signify by rising in their place. 940

Haren :.!.1,1978 Tape No, 339 AH-1 MR. CHAIRMAN : Those members who are against,signify by rising in their place. SOME RON. ~!EMJ)ERS: Oh, oh! MR. CllAIHMAN: Order, please! It has been moved that the Committee rise, rFport progress and ask leave to sit again. On motion that the Committee, rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again, Hr. Speaker returned to tile Chair. ;.JR. SPEAKER: Han. Chairman of Committees. HR. CllAIRNAN : Hr. Speaker, the Committee of tne wnole has requested I report naving made progress and ask leave to sit again. MR.

SPEAKER: The Chairman of the Committee reports that they have considered the matters to tnem referred, ~de some progress ana ask leave to sit again. On motion Committee ordered to sit again now. The motion is that I now leave tne Chair. On motion that the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole House, Mr. Speaker, left the Chair. MR. CHAIRNAi'l: Order ,please!

Before we start the proceedings in Committee we have the exact same situation to which I alluded originally and the Chair is put in the position of recognizing an hen. member when at the very beginning of proceedings two members l~ve risen in their place, Now in a situation like that I think the Chair nas to ~s!" its discretion, it i1as to recognize that the debate involves both sides of the House. The Chair has to be careful so as not to appear to have bias or give preference to one side or the otner. It is not an easy choice.

However, if a choice i.s made and the Committee feels ti1at the caoice might be overturned,there is a means available to Committee to do tnat; this is in our Standing Rules and I would again refer to Standing Rule 48, At the present time we are in the situation 941.

c1arch 21,1978 Tape No. 339 AH-2 where one side of tile House has had the attention of the Committee for a prolonged period of time on a set issue before the Uommittee. Due to a procedural event,the other side of the Committee who were addressing the Committee had not a similar lengtn or even approacning a similar length of time. Now as I say the Committee is put in a position where no one is.right and no one is wrong; there \;ere two members on their feet in tneir places, quite correctly,when the eommittee rose~anu therefore tne Committee nas to make a ch'lice when it is not a black <md white situation.

It is my choice.and my decision that in the circumstances tnat prevail I am going to recognize the hon. ~linist~r of ~lines &<d Energy. ~.lli.. W.N. Ji.Ow-:E: hR. CHAIRNAN : bR. W •• ~. ROWE: Hr. Chairman, a point of oraer. A point of order has risen. Mr.

Ci.airman, my point of order will be referred to in a second out just as a preliminary remark let me mention to tne Chair tnat Your Honour's r=arks concerning the lengti1 of time taken by a speaker in the House are completely, Sir, I would submit humbly, completely irrelevant, I was a member of the Opposition, tne Leader of tne Opposition,speaking in reply to a goverument motion and tnerefore had unlimited time. The minister on tne other side of the House rises now ana nas forty-five minutes according to the rules in which to speak. Your honour's ruling - which I assume was a ruling, and 942 .I

r., a r c h 2 1 , 1 9 7 8 Taoe 340 D ~~ - 1 !1R. ~·!.N. R0 !!>: it may not be,:- Your Honor's ruling, by havino a 1oud,dis­ honorable oentlnan to be recognized twice 4n a row, Sir J.N HO:!. ~1E'1!3ER.: Three times. 1'1'. \1 • f!. ')'J"E : -'lo, twice in a r01~, Sir- oro- long the speaking ability or the time for sneaking of this hon. minister from the twenty ninutes that he had yesterday, forty-five minutes again that he could have ~ad today.

No~ this committee has risen and h~s come back again. flccordinq to Your Honor's rulino this hon. minister can now speak,pre- sumablv,for another additional forty-five minutes in this de­ bate.

Now, Sir. that is according to the aovernment side of the ~ouse a ryr1v11eqe Sir, and a riqht that does obtain to everv ~emher in this House of asse~bly, Sir, and I rise on a point of order in order to say that Your Honor shciuld re- cognize the han. nember, my collea~ue, the C~airman of the Public Accounts Committee,having being on his feet twice in a ro~1, Sir, in advance of the hon. ·~inister of ~·lines and EnerCJ.'!· SOr·• E HON. '1E~·1BERS: Hear, Hear! 'lR. HICK~~MI: Mr.

Chairman, that is not a point of ord:=r.!>lhat.Your Honor,said~ elucidat.-=:! ' . ' just no~1 is so fair, so enuitable, so clear, so necess fY to the smooth runninp ofthis House that I am surorised anyone would even attenpt to raise a specious noint of ord~r on it. Your Honor, · recoqnize ,:J the ~on. th~ 11inister of "ines i!nd Chair recoqnizes one instead of t~e 0ther,then o~viouslv that is the decision and the prerogative of the Chair. I commend Your Honor for the very fairand-eouita~le wav in w~ich you have been ODeratinn .s1nce assu~1n9 that Chair since you have bee:n appointed by this !louse. 943

·r'lrch 21, 1"73 ~'R. CHI\ I~"l\il: "~ rder, nlease. !H~. NE.I\RY: I reluctantly move that Your Honor's move be appealed, seconded bv my hon. friend, the member for TrinitY - :av de Verde. resnond to t~a ~on . no~osit1on jid rise on a noin t of or de · ~ee t ~a t ft oi nt cf order :·•as not ~ ore t hr. '' o:rs e a t ~ · s "· "e . Jn~ re nrt t o t ~e Sne1~ !r . ··~ S?E.' KE'\: nder, olease. The hon. Chairman. '1R. CH.'\Ii;t1AN (DR. COLLI~IS): '1r. Speaker, I have to report that a rulinq in Committee was appealed. ·~~.

SPE.'IKER: ~ow the ~oticn that will go before the Chair is that the ~ecision of the Chair- 11an of Committees be upheld. Those in favor ".ll.ve", contra r :! " ~1 a v " . In rn v o o i n i on the Ave ' s have i t . 'IR. S·IMWH!S: Divide, divide~ .. ., ' . \ . SPEAY-ER: Let the House divirJe, Call ' n the mel'lbers. 944

Harch 21, 1978 Tape ~o. 341 NM- 1 HR. SPEAKER:_ The motion before the Chair is that the decision of the Chairman of Committees be upheld, those in favour please rise. The han. the Premier, the hon. the Minister of Labour and Manpower, the hon. the }tinister of Education, the hon. the rlinister of Tourism, the hon. the }linister of Rehabilitation and Recreation, the hon. the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture, the hon. the Hinister of Health, the hon. the Hinister of Social Services, the hon. the Minister of }fines and Energy, the hon. the :1inister of Justice, the hon.

Minister of Transportation and Communications, the hon. Hinister of Hunicipal Affairs and Housing, the hon. the Minister of Fisheries, the hon. the Minister of Industrial Development, Dr. Hinsor, Mr. Harshall, Dr. Collins, Hr. Young, Dr. Twomey, Mr. Goudie, :.fr. ~eil Hindsor, Hr. Cross, :'lr. Patterson, l-!r. Carter, Mr. Woodrow. MR. SPEAKER: Those opposed please stand. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Hodder, Mrs. Macisaac, Mr. Strachan, Mr. Fred Rowe, Mr. ~leary, Nr. Simmons, Hr. White, Mr. Lush, Dr. Kitchen, Hr. Callan, }1r. Flight, Mr. Canning, Captain Winsor, Mr. Nolan, Mr. Rideout, }1r.

McNeil, Mr. Jack \Unsor, Mr. Moores. MR. SPEAKER: On the division, affirmative twenty-five, negative nineteen, I declare the motion carried.- SOME HON. HE}ffiERS : Hear, hear! HR. SPEAKER: The motion is that I leave the Chair, Those in favour "Aye", contrary "Nay", carried. :m. CHAIR11fu'if: Order, please! The hon. Minister of Hines and Energy. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I move, seconded by the hon. member for - HR. PECKFORD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. NEARY: - Trinity Bay de Verde, that the member for Burgeo -Bay d'Espoir - MR. PECKFORD: I would like to continue my remarks in silence, l-!r. Chairman. 945

~larch 21, 1978 Tape No. 341 :-IM - 2 !IR. CHl1.IR.Mtu": Order, please! HR. NEARY: ~JR. CHAIRMAN: member for LaPoile. HR. NEARY: I would like to make a motion, Hr. Chairman. Order, please! I do recognize the han. I would like to move, Sir, seconded by my colleague, the member for Trinity - Bay de Verde, that the member for Burgee -Bay d'Espoir be recognized by Your Honour and that the member do now speak. HR.. CHAIRMAN : It has been moved that the hen. member for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir do now speak. Those in favour indicate by "Aye", those contrary, "Nay". "Nayes" have it. I rule the }JR.

PECKFORD: SOliZ HON. !IS;·fBERS: HR. SiillDNS: HR. CHAIRMf,N: HR. SIMMONS: The hen. l'finis ter of Hines and Energy. Hr. Chairman, thank you very much. Hear, hear! Hr. Chairman. on a point of order. A point of order has been raised. Mr. Chairman, is it my understanding now that the Chair has recognized the ~linister of Mines and Energy for the fourth time in a row1 HR. CHAirui~: The hen. member is correct in his general assumption. The Chair has recongized the hen. minister. HR. SUlHONS: I wanted some information on which to base my point of order.

Has the Chairman of Committees now recognize the minister for the fourth time in a row7 HR.. CHAIRMA.'I : The han. member is correct. HR. PECKFORD: Mr. Chairman, I do not know if there is a point of order before the Chair cr not, The han. member for Burgee - Bay d 'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) got up on a point of order • Am I recognized to speak now, Sir? MR. CHAI&~: I am not aware of a point of order being before the Chair. The hen. Minister of Hines and Energy. 946

}larch 21, 1978 Tape No. 341 NM- 3 MR. PECKFORD: Okay, thank you. Mr. Chairman, thank you very much. I am happy to ~e on my feet again. SOHE HON. MEl1BERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMONS: ~R. PECKFORD: }IR. C!iAIRHAN: HR. SUJHONS: A point of order. Mr. Chairman. A point of order has been raised. I submit, Mr. Chairman; that there 1vas no need to recognize the Minister of Hines the fourth time, because he had been recognized a third time, at 4:13,and that after he had been recognized by the Chair there were then some procedural matters ~'hich interrupted his speech.

However, under the rules and the tradition of this Co=ittee and this House, we have been accustomed to moving the clock from the time the member is first recognized and I would therefore submit that while there is no need to recognize him a fourth time, because he had begun to speak technically at 4:13, and that his time should be clocked from that point in time. MR. NEARY: HR. CliAIR."!A..~: MR. NEARY: l1r. Chairman, to that point of order. The han. member for LaPoile.

I would like to draw to Your Honour's attention that over the past fifteen or sixteen minutes here in the House a very serious situation has arisen inasmuch, Hr. Chairman, as under the Standing Rules of this House, on this side of the House we have exercised our rights under the rules, and I moved that the Co=ittee rise, which meant, Mr. Chairman, that at that moment all discussion then ceased, The government members could have been in their seats and supporting my han. friend who is speaking, listening to the speech that was being made by the hon. gentleman. They were disinterested.

They did not sit in the House and therefore the majority on this side carried, which meant that all Committee of the Whole as of that moment ceased, and then Your Honour,even in keeping with the spirit of the House,did not have to recognize the Minister of Mines 947

Xarch 21, 1978 Tape :-io. 341 X£! - 4 ~:R. ~EARY: and Energy. The debate had been stopped by this side of the House, not by the government side, Sir, under the Standing Rules and therefore I submit to Your Honour that my hon. friend should have been recognized. 948

March 21, 1978 Tape 342 PK- 1 MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! I do have to point out to the han. member that he is going back to a situation where a ruling was made, the ruling was appealed, the Committee dissolved, and the House was reconstitued and that ruling was upheld by the House. So I cannot hear further ar~unent on that situation. I am not aware otherwise that there is a point of order before the Chair. The han. member for Burgee- Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) made some observations which do not in any way constitute a point of order.

He has every right to make them as he though it was a point of order, but all the Chair can decide is whether there is a point of order or not before it. And I did not hear a point of order coming within the ambience of our rules. MR. PECKFORD: The han. Minister of Mines and Energy. Mr. Chairman, - MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Chairman, (inaudible) when the minister's time has begun whether it was indeed at 4:13 as I understand it to be. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order,, please!

On a point of information I would point out to han. members-! am not being difficult, I am sure han. members will realize that - that questions of procedure should not be put to the Speaker or indeed to the Chairman of Committees. Information can be obtained from the table in a private way, and t~e table, myself included,will be only too glad to do it, but it is not proper for the proceedings of the House to be interrupted to ask procedural questions of the Chair. The han. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. NEARY: On a point of order, Sir. MR. CHAIRMAN: A point of order has been raised. MR.

NEARY: I would submit,Your Honour,on a point of order that the han. gentleman's time has now expired, that we have been now longer than forty-five minutes on estimates,on points of order, on rising 949

March 21, 1978 MR. NEARY: Tape 342 the Committee, coming back into Committee of the Whole. And it all totals up,Sir, the clock does not stop, Your Honour did not stop the clock. Now I would submit that forty-five minutes has expired and now my hon. friend, the member for Burgeo-Bay d 'Espoir (Nr. Simmons), should be recognized. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! The officers of the Table inform me that the hon. minister's time has not elapsed. The hon. minister. MR. NEARY: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: A point of order has been raised. MR.

NEARY: Could Your Honour indicate to the House how many more minutes the minister has in which to address the House? MR. CHAIRMAN: Would the House Leader for the Opposition care to approach the Chair? The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. PECKFORD: Mr. Chairman, we have witnessed one of the most despicable displays of procedural wrangling that I have ever seen IB-2 since I have been in this House since 1972. Effectively the Opposition, condoned by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. W. Rowe), that great urban princeling - A point of order, Mr. Chairman. ~~~~~~~-- - who wants now to take again - MR. w.

ROWE: MR. PECKFORD: MR. w. ROWE: MR. PECKFORD: MR. CHAIRMAN: MR. PECKFORD: MR. CHAIRMAN: order. A point of order. - the time away from me left to speak - A point of order. - because he cannot stand to listen to it. Order, please! Order, please! A point of MR. w. ROWE: Mr. Chairman, my point of order is based on the Standing Orders of the House which require strict relevancy. Sir, we are debating a resolution having to do with interim supply being voted to Her Majesty. I would submit, Sir, that the hon. minister's scandalous remarks a moment ago concerning procedure of this House are 950

March 21, 1978 Tape 342 MR. W. ROWE: strictly irrelevant and therefore strictly out of order, Sir, and I ask for a ruling on that point. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! The Committee is now debating supply, in other words, the Budget~and 951. IB-3

!-'.arch 21, 1978 Tape 343 EC - 1 HR. CHAIR}f.AN: (Dr. Collins) in other words, the Budget, and it is traditional in this House that in the Budget debate,including estimates, that these be broad ranging and, of course, we have ample and recent precedents for this attitude of Committee. The hon. the lrinister of l~ines and Energy. MR. PE CKFOP.D : I recognize what the Opposition are up to.

I also recognize that ~~e have some fair-minded people in the gallery who recognize and have witnessed - I hope it has not been their first time in this Rouse of Assembly so that they go away with the kind of impression that anybody ~•ould gather in the rallery today. It is an unfortunate situation. We on this side of the House, 'fr.

Chairman, during this debate ~.m.ich ~~as started by the Leader of the Opposition, listened intently to the remarks =de by the Leader of the Opposition, some of which were totally relevant, others of •mich bordered on irrelevancy. ~<e gave him the opportunity to lash out at the government, to indicate from his side just where they thought as an Opposition party the government was going wrong both in the Budget Speech and in Interim Supply.

He listened intently, we did not bring up any specious points of order, any technicalities, and here we witness now this afternoon for many, many minutes a filibuster, an attempt by the Opposition to muzzle a minister of the Cro~m from having the right to get up in his ~lace and 3ive his opinions as they relate to Interim Supply and the Budget SFeech. Surely, Hr. Chairman, it is just another indication of Hhy the hon. gentleman is over there on that side of the Fouse and why the people over here form the government of this Province.

Because the people of this Province recognize the irresponsibility of the Liberal Party of this Province at the present time - not the party so much as the members that make up the party, and there is a big, big difference. '1r. Chairman, I was indicating before I was rudely interrupted on numerous occasions that the big difference 952 ;;

Narch 21, 1978 Tape 343 EC - 2 MR.. PECKFORD: that separates the government of this Province from the Opposition is that the government of this Province is committed to rural development and fisheries develo~ment, something that the Liberal Party of Newfotmdland, .that the Opposition, has been against from day one, since 1949. ''R. S lllYO~·l S : Point of order, ~~r. Chairman. MR. CFAII'J'Cl<Jl : (Dr. Collins) Order, please! A point of order has arisen. The han. member for Bur~eo - Bay d'Espoir. HR. S OO·!ONS : l1r.

Chairman, I have knmm the minister for a long time as a fairly fair-minded person and I do not think he deliberately meant to assign some motives to us just now as to ~Thy >Je were rising on points of order, I thi nk · ~h atever his motive was he has i n effe"t given the impressio~ that somehow we have been filibustering or othe~•ise interrupting. Mr. Chairman, the minister has been recognized four times . That is unprecedented in this House for the same member to be recognized four times in a row.

We have chosen the procedural mechanisms available to us to make that point and we have made it, that in a very unprecedented fashion the Chairman in Committee has recognized the same member four times in a row. That was our reason for doing it, Hr. Chairman. That is my poi1t of order, that the minister in saying that we had attempted to do oth~r things, has assigned motives to us, t~y point of order, Xr.

Chairman, is that the minister in assigning certain motives to us other than those ~1hich we were guided by, has been unparliamentary, has violated the rules of this Pause and should be instructed by the rhair to retract his unparli~entary alle gations. NR. HIC'Ia~AN: ~~r. Chairman, to that point of order, number one, it is not a point of order. The Chair has ruled, ~lr. Chairman, has ruled so many times now that one has ceased counting,that the kind of remarks made by the Minister of Hines and Energy at the very most is a difference of opinion.

And yesterday we heard the same sort of approach from across the House and no one thought or even suggested that it was 953

~! arch 21, 1978 Taoe 3l.3 '·IlL !!ICKi'!A.'l : out of order or even that indeed there \vas a point of order . Simply to set the record strai~tht, 1-'::. Clhai rman , ~ihen we went into Committee today, the hon . the ~:inister of '·lines and F..nergy 'Has recop,:nized Ly the Chai r very properly . . Since th e'l~, any recognition that has been n.ecessary from the Ghai r has not oeen t.he cause of this side of the House . near, hear! :·!R. CRA!ru fAN: Order, please! The question has aris en of wheth er unworthY motives ,or motives other chan those avo~·red, have !:>een ascribed .

I 1.;ould point out to hon. !'\embers of the Committee that: it is unparliamentary to do such in regard to an indivi dual hon. member wh.en one is re ferring to an hon. member: h01~ever, as far as my memory serves me, the hon , "inister of !·lines and fnergy cid no t refe r to any individual rnemoe:: of Committee i n his remarks in t his fashion and· I do not thin k , t he re fo.-e, th at a point of order is before the Chair. The hon . l!ini s ter of >lines and Energy . l.!R. PECKFORD: ~~ .

Chairman, than k you once again for recognizin g me and put t ing dow-n in due fair, common sense fashion the ~ on. member for Burgeo - Bay d' !!spo i r as so often h as l>een the case over the past number of days. ~r. Chairman, I ~ras trying to point out to the Committee in response to the remarks by the Leader of the Opposition yesterday, that this adroiniStTation since 1972 nas reco ~ize d t he need for 954

March 21, 1978, Tape 344, Page 1 -- apb MR. PECKFORD: major resource development in rural Newfoundland and that this was being accomplished through major increases in expenditure and the creation of a new Department of Rural Development and through funds being channeled into that department on'a progressively higher basis as well as in the Department of Fisheries, two areas which were ignored totally by the former administration and by the Liberal Party which was, of course, the administration of the day. I was going on, Mr.

Chairman, when I was so rudely interrupted, to indicate that these were not the only fields from a pure financial point of view. If one looks at the Department of Mines and Energy, the present portfolio that I hold, the budget has gone from $17 million in 1971 to $30 . million in 1978, the Department of Forestry and Agriculture has gone from $7 million in 1971 to $23 million in 1978, and so on it goes. In the Department of Tourism, a department that was established by this administration we have in 1978 and expenditure of $14 million contrasted with $3 million in 1971. And on it goes, Mr. Chairman.

If one looks at all the resource departments and does upone'stotals, one will come to a grand total of $149 million, or $150 million as contrasted to $57 million in 1971. This is a cause, I would say, for a great deal of pleasure on this side of the House, Mr. Chairman.

To think that during this period of time when simultaneously we were bringing in under the health scheme- bringing new hospitals on over the last six or seven years, that the costs of both construction and operating on those hospitals - bringing the Health Sciences complex on, the Twillingate Hospital on, the Carbonear Hospital on and other extensions. The big extension to the Waterford Hospital out here, to the 955

March 21, 1978, Tape 344, Page 2 -- apb MR. PECKFORD: Western Memorial ~ospital and other major renovations that have been done over the last years. The ongoing increases based on the cost of living essentially that have been given to ~hose people on social assistance. The introduction in l974 of a totally new revamped social assistance programme which was not in before that time and at the same time increases ranging from 30 per cent well up to 90 per cent in the amount paid to welfare recipients.

In the same time as we were increasing from $49 million to $150 million the resource departments, at one and the same time were increasing our social commitments to the people of Newfoundland and Labrador, both through new welfare programmes,through new health p~ogrammes. Who can deny the great ambulance programme that was brought in by this administration to serve not only urban centres but all over the Province - rural Newfoundland - to ensure that the sick and needy got to hospital in the quickest way possible? Who can deny that kind of programme?

Who can deny the ongoing increases in transportation and Communications that have been identified and have been increased by this administration over the same period that we were still providing much higher increases to the resource departments, that we were going ahead simultaneously, that we just were not hitching our wagon to star, but that we were recognizing social responsibility and at the same time saying to the people of Newfoundland that if we are ever to have a chance we muct create new dollars and they can only be created through the things that we know naturally. Thirdly, Mr.

Chairman, at the same time that we were increasing our financial input both into the social sector as well. as the economic sector, we recognized that new legislation, new programmes 956 ;·

March 21, 1978, Tape 344, Page 3 -- apb MR. PECKFORD: that had to pass through this hon. House would have to be put in place. Who can deny, Mr. Chairman, that at the same point in time when everybody accuses this administration of closing down mines, as if they had some responsibility for creating the ore which mother nature must always have, at the same time as we see a reduction in mining activity in this Province, is it not ironic, Mr.

Chairman, that at the same time that that is occurring the amount of revenue accruing to the treasury of this Province has gone up over three times in mining taxes because we had the audacity and the forward looking vision to revamp all the mineral legislation in this Province over the last three or four years, that it is this administration that has increased upon the companies the amount of tax that they have to pay to the provincial treasury, and that now in 1977, not 1978 in 1977, over three times the amount of revenue carne into the Province of Newfoundland in the way of mineral taxation than came in 1971-1972, even though we have reductions in the mining industry around the Province?

This indicates a fairly forward look to eliminate completely the concession system which served us so badly over the years and which condemns now additional exploration in this Province. It is because of the concession system that we are strapped, that because of our new mineral programme, our new mining legislation we have taken those areas that are not under concession 957

:-larch 21, 1978 Tape No. 345 ~~f - 1 llR. PECKFORD: and we have opened them up and that claim staking in '77 is up over '76 even though the climate economically in Canada and Newfoundland is not all that attractive. This administration did that, both in the realm of taxation and increasing the revenue that we could then use for social programmes and simultaneously 'bring in new reform legislation. Hr.

Chairman, is it any wonder then that three or four weeks ago when I attended a major conference on mining in Toronto, the Canadian Association of Prospectors and Developers, that around 200 delegates from across Canada and representatives from the United States, could articulate and say before all the mining community of Canada that one of the few provinces in Canada that has forward progressive legislation, even though they had to pay three times more taxes, was in the Province of :~ewfoundland and Labrador?

They said that at that conference, that this was progressive legislation because we consulted with the companies and consulted with the unions and brought in legislation that is good. ~~. Chairman, who would deny that presently on this Order Paper of this very day we have a major piece of legislation that is going to circumvent a very bad regressive system of mining concessions that was brought in by the Liberal Administration ?

We are now going to impose a tax upon those areas that are held under perpetuity or for a long period of time by mining companies , and we are s·aying to those companies that you either have to pay this tax 1which gets quite burdensome in the fifth year of the programme from now, for five years, or otherwise relinquish it. And if they agree to relinquish it so that they will not have to pay the tax, then it comes under the open system of claim staking to allow additional companies to come in. 958

~larch 21, 1978 Tape No. 345 ;m- 2 NR. PECKFORD: I was part of a conference, ~tr. Chairman, at the Holiday Inn here in St. John's several months ago, Canadian Institute of Hining and Hetalurgy, where I stood up at that conference and indicated to all the companies who were then doing business in this Province, and prospective companies who wanted to do business in the Province, lvould you please tell me over the next two weeks whether this new mineral impost legislation is harsh, is anti-investment, is regressive? I did not, 1-lr. Chairman, get one negative comment.

I had just about every company that was then doing business, as well as companies that were not, come to me and say, "1\Te know we live in a different world. We know that private enterprise is still the best vehicle to bring on jobs and investment, but we know we will in a different world that we did in the forties or the thirties, and that the concession system that major concessions on any front are no longer the orde~ of the day and that they were willing for their company's part, to recommend that this kind of forward, progressive legislation go through.

Hence we have now revamped totally the whole mining legislation of this Province. Mr.

Chairman, in 1974 we took another step, a major step legislation wise, which changed the whole face of the forest industry in this Province. \fe brought in forestry legislation that will impel the two major forestry companies, pulp and paper companies, to do a full survey of their forestry resource, that it lY"ould be split up in blocks around the Province, that it would be determined an annual allowable cut on that block, and that if they could not cut that annual allowable cut because it was not in their programme for that mill that year, they would either pay a tax on it or relinquish that wood to some other operator or sawmill operator in the area, to allow him to do it if they did not want to pay the tax.

This has resulted in my district, in the 959

~larch 21, 1978 Tape "o. 345 NH - 3 }!R. PECKFOilll: district of Green Bay, in major expansion in both wood contracting and in lumber producing. Price (Nfld.). I think it was who gave up the Mooney Block on the Great Northern Peninsula and one of the reasons why they gave it up was because of this. On the Burlington Peninsula, which is on the Baie Verte Peninsula, there has been major concessions .made by 3owaters to private contractors because they did not have it in their programme to cut this wood.

And it is making a great difference not only to the level of activity in the forest industry but simultaneously, deliberately causing the companies to think about conservation and reforestation for the first time in their history. That was major legislation.

That was not a policy resulting from an Order-in-council, resulting from an announcement by a minister; that is law that is in this Province right now and that is legisaltion that the co1:1panies now have accepted and_are working with the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture on, and providir,g increased activity, increased jobs and increased money to the Provincial Treasury. Mr.

Chairman, I think my time has just about run up and I am just getting started on the many,both financial and lebislative means by which this administration proves beyond a shadow of a doubt why it is on this side of the House and the party opposite will continue to dwindle and have many, many more leaders in its day. MR. CHAIR11AN: The hon. member for Burgee -Bay d'Espoir. 9SO

:larch 21, 1978 Tape No. 346 ;~ - 1 ~1R. SIMHONS: Thank you, Hr. Chairman. I think it was The Evening Telegram, Hr.

Chairman, one of the papers -yes, The Evening Telegram -a few days ago that either unwittingly or otherwise found a term, a single word, that sums up at once the value that you can place on anything the Premier says in particular, anything the ~! inister of Finance says ·in particular, anything the budget says in particular, anything the so-called blueprint says in particular, any promises or commitments that the Premier made in Grand Falls about the hospital, or in Clarenville, or promises about a multitude of other items; The Evening Telegram found a term, I say perhaps not deliberately, but found a term in its editorial of }larch 18th.

The editorial relates to the resignation of the former }linister of Rural Development. But in the second paragraph or that editorial, the editorialist says in part: 'He resigned because the government did not plan to keep its oft.en repeated vommitment v--o-m-m-i-t-m-e-n-t. Is that not just the most beautiful word you could coin? Is that not the most beautiful word you could coin to describe the kinds of promises the government makes and what it ultimately does in terms of following them through, or in this case not following them through? A vommitment, not a collllllitment, Mr.

Chairman, a vommitment, v-o-m-m-i-t-m-e-n-t. I think that is the most descriptive term for the shenanigans the Premier has been pulling over the people of Newfoundland for the past five or six years. And now the ne'" albeit temporary }linister of Finance has joined forces 'lith the Premier because this document, this Budget, Hr.

Chairman, I am forced to call it a budget because it says so, on the cover, very little inside that would tell you it is a budget, everything inside would tell you it is some kind of a pipe dream, some kind of a new effort at hoodwinking nore people, but I suppose we will have to refer to it for purposes of reference as a budget. There was a time, Mr. Chairman, when you could look to the Ninister of Finance on.Budget day to stand up in this House and review in a fairly statesmanly manner the fiscal position ~f the 961.

:la=ch 21, 1978 Tape ~o. 346 ~IR . sr: ~IO:-:s : Province, to tell us as oembers of the 3ouse and t~erefore custodians of t3e public purse, to tell us exactly the sta te of the Province. The Americans have a meci1anism whereby the President goes befo-re the lltedia once & yea r and gives a State of the Union address . And in somewhat parallel form, ~lr.

Chairman, I would sui>mit :hat that is what the Hinister of Finance ought :o ~e doing when he stands in this House to deliver his budget speech. l!e ought to be telling us ~1hat is the s tate of t~e Province fiscally and econor.~ically and then he ought to be telling us \1hat the government propose .s to do in fiscal tel"1DS over the next twelve months, over the next fiscal period. ~ow , ~rr .

Chai=m3n, if you look closely a: t:le budge t you •.1ill iind that the minister does make an ~ffort at the latter. de does indicate almost incidentally what the gover~ent intends to do over the next twelve months, but he takes most of ~~e tioe, and I say very deliberately, Mr. Chai=an, he takes I:Xlst of t he time to wax eloquent -; and he was eloquent, Hr. Chairman, let · there be no doubt about that; the Hiniste r of Fioance • .. :as eloquent and for a very good reason which I '.rill come back to- he waxed eloquent for an hou r and a half or whatever on just about everything except direct budgetary matters.

There wa.s that pipe dream of pipe drealllS, the five year plan, remniscent of che Russian five year ?laos. 962

~•arch 21, 1~78 Tc.pe 347 EC - 1 MR. SUft10NS: no one, ~r. Chairman, ~•oulci ever compare this crowd to the Russians. 'lobody would ever be that unkind, 11r. Chairman, that undemocratic as to COIIIIJare this crowd to the Russians. It ~vould be most unkind to the Russians, because the Russians at least, Hr. Chairman, keep their five year plans. They at least follow through, if you can helieve the press. They at least come reasonably close to achieving what they set out to do.

You might not aj1:ree ~vi th what it is they do, but at least they have a single-minderl purpose ,.;hich gets them to their goal over the stated period. Not this government, Hr. Chairman. This government,whic'l now puts before us a five year plan,has demonstrated - and who better, ~~r. Chairman, but the former Minister of ~ural Develop~ent would know this - this government has demonstrated that it cannot even l.<eep a one year plan. It cannot pursue a five or six month plan,let alone a five year plan. Hhat utter, complete rubbish!

Hhat nonsense! ~ ·Tho believes it? '~ake no wonder they needed a vote in caucus, '·!r. Chairman, to find out where everybody stood. The chairman of caucus over there tells us that they voted to uphold - or whatever the uord was - to uphold what the Premier has been up to. AN HO'-i. ~!EMBER: HR. SOO!ONS: ballot and it was probably - AN RON. MID'BF:R: >fR. SOO•ONS: Was that a sP.cret hallot? yes, it was probably a secret I doubt it. - the same kind of vote result as the Premier would get from his caucus if he were desperately ill in a hospital.

At the right point in time the card ~•ould come, or the telegram with flo~•ers and would read, 'Your caucus wishes you a speedy recovery by a vote of fifteen to fourteen.' I ~vould suggest, !'r. Chairman, that is the kind of vote that they probably had in that caucus, but the irony of it is that they needed that kind of a vote at all. The Premier must be on a double prescription of paranoia pills these days. ~~r. Chai rrnan, the Grand Falls hospital is an ex3I11TJle I use simply because it is perhaps most in the public eye, 963

'larch 21, 1978 Tape 347 EC - 2 ~!R. SHo/.ONS: most in the public mind of commitments this government has not kept. ftnd this is not an alleged promise, this is a well documented public commitment. Indeed, ~~r. Chairman, it goes beyond the status of a commitment.

It is one thing to say you are going to do something, but if you have already begun to do it, if you put a beautiful eight by twenty-four billboard saying not only that the hospital is going ahead or the extension is go in~ ahead and how much is going to cost, but also telling ~1ho the design enp.ineers are, who the general contractors are, who the electrical contractors are, I "t>IOuld submit, Mr. Chairman, that is more than a commitment - that is a project actually undertaken. That is a project ~•hich is actually up it begun. Or it is something else.

It is another example of how elaborately t~is han. crowd set out to hoom.;ink people. Imagine going to the extent, ~!r. Chairman, of getting your billboards all painted, getting theiTl placed •in t;rand Falls and on the llurin Peninsula, as the Hinister of Finance ~?ell kno~.rs, and in Clarenville - not only some kind of an announcement saying, 'One of those days we are going to build a hospital here.' No, more than that. The whole thing, ~r. Chairman,

chapter and verse, who the various contractors are, who the architects are, 1:...flo the subcontractors are, the value of the project, the expected completion date. That is r.~re than a commitment, that is a project well underway. Now let us place it in time. I saw the billboard for the first time about August of 1975, that is the billboard in Grand Falls as well as the one in C.larenville, about August, 1975.

He ~•ill all remember, of course, that in September, 1975 we had a g-eneral election and then after the election lve had that infa.::1ous so-called mini Budget which I submit •.;as the real Budget the year we had two budgets, the bluff :!'.udget in the Spring and the real Budget in the fall. Hr. Chairman, the Premier today during Question Period muttered something during one of his brief and infrequent visits to the Rouse. He muttered something about he did not need a written resignation from '1r. Groom, he ~-~- 964

harcil 21, 197 8 Tape No. 348 J ~i - 1 ~~. Sll~O~S: believe in taking people at their word. ~k. Chairman, there are a lot of people ill tllis provillce who nave long suoscribed to trusting people and they have had a pretty good track record. They i~ve not always been let down. But that same group of people, }k. Chairman, the many tens of thousands of trusting Newfoundlanders who have enougn faiti1 in people to trust them wnen they say something they know ti1ey mean it, that sCillle group of people, tk. Chairman, are having second thoughts these days and their teacher, Hr.

C1•airman, is tne Premier of Newfoun<lland and Laorador. He is telling tuem in loud ana clear terms - Look at me. You cannot believe a word I say. If you want examples look at tile oospital extension in Grand Falls, looK at Clarenville, look at the pronouncements about tne extension to Come by Cilance. Now, dr. Chairman, what an aboutface. What a turn arouna. The last few days we ;,ear this cro-wd talk about Come by Chance like it is the worst thing ever happened to the province. fhey try And shame certain people, whoever got involved in the project but tilat is not wnat they were sayill!> ill September 1~75.

Tile Premier himself was in Clarenville about ten days before the election in 1975 and he was singing the praises of Come by Chance and announcing that a great expansion would go forward and that there would be anotner refiuery in Come by Chance. There would be a petro-chemical plant in Come by Cnance. Then it was okay, Mr. Chairman, because they needed to buy a few votes. Today somehow it is a shocking tning to even mention Come by Chance. HR. CALLAN: or tae rludget. Hi<..

Sli-fr!ONS: Come by Chance was not even mentioned in the Throne Speech l:iy colleague from Bellevue reminds me rightly that the matter of Come by Ci~nce was not even meutioneci in the Throne Speech or tne Budget. Let us watch when the next election is upon us. There will be lots of song anti dance tuen about those no-ao projects - Labrador Linerboard and Come by Chance and the others. We will hear lots about tnem again, ~tr. Chairman. But the people of Grand Falls and Central Newfoundland are teaching us a good lesson.

They are teaching us not to be·nearly as gullible about this crowd as we have been up till now. 965

Harcu 21, 1978 Tape No. 34<> JJ!'l - 2 l!R, SD-,HONS: rk. Chairman, I suppose there is no member in this House wi10 is quite as i1ard to listen to as tue i•linis ter of Hines and Energy. I tllink if you i1ad to take secret oallots around here on tnat very subject he would come out on top. He would come out very much on top, ~lr. Ci1airman, as a person hardest to listen to by any member on any siae of tne House, I :1eard nim rave on about how the Lea.cier of the Opposition did not say wnat he wanted to hear nim say. You are right, dr. Cnairman, he did not. You are right, ~lr. Chairman.

The Leader of tne Opposition and I and every other member,a: least on this side of tne House,will aave our say about fis1leries and resource development and a number of other issues if we are given a ci~nce. If this crowd, Mr. Cnairman, this hon. crowd has the guts to call the ~uuget debate you will hear from the Leader of the Opposition and from t11e rest of us over nere about matters affectill6 the future economy of tne province. In case the Hinister of aines and Energy and otners do not know wi~t we are doing here we are making a few comments on the matter of Interim Supply.

I understand that tue ~linister of Finance would like to get on with this and like to get it through by the end of i•larch so he can pay the civil servants and pay the other committments tnat are accruing to the public treasury~and in the spirit of co-operation we have undertaken to allow him to do that.but, Mr. Chairman, within reason.

If the government members insist on pursuing a full-scale Budget debate irrespective of what label is on this particular exercise now, if the government persist in pursuing a full-scale Budget debate we shall do likewise and if it takes till the 20th of April or the 15th of i1ay to get Interim Supply througn,sobeit. It takes two, dr. Chairman, to keep a bargain and right now, }lr. Chairman, if we are forced by circumstance into engaging ia sss

March 21, 1978 Tape 349 MR. SIMMONS: a full-scale debate or answering for not covering every subject every time one of us stands on our feet.because we are operating IB=1 under the constraints of an Interim Supply motion and we are operating under the constraints of an agreement to get on with this in the next two or three days, Mr. Chairman, they cannot have. their cake and eat it too.

If they want that kind of co-operation let them do one of two or three things: either let them pursue this debate in Committee as an Interim Supply and let us get on to the larger question of the Budget debate~or withdraw this motion - I do not mean withdraw it 1but not call it again for a while and let us get on with the Budget debate as such which is where all of us over here would like to be right now, on the Budget debate. And it is not the fault of the Opposition, Mr. Chairman, that we are now, March 21, trying to rush through $165 million in the next few days so the government can pay its bills.

That was not our fault. March 6. We did not delay the opening of the House until There was lots of time, Mr. Chairman, for the government to have brought the House together last Fall to have dealt with the fairly heavy legislative programme which I understand .is going to come before us,and then to adjourn for a brief period of time during Christmas and to come back here about January 10 or January 15, have the Speech from the Throne and give us time to debate it. We have only had two or three days on that debate yet. We should have had behind us now at least six or seven weeks on the Throne Speech debate.

It is not our fault that it was not delivered until the sixth day of March, at least two months after it should have been. It is not our fault that within ten days of the opening of the House,or seven or eight days,the government brings in the Budget. Not too soon, Mr. Chairman, too soon in terms of the opening date of the House but not too soon over- all. About two months too late overall. That is not our fault, Mr. Chairman. That is the fault of a government that is not doing its job, that is reneging on its obligations to the people of Newfoundland and Labrador. 967 - ;

March 21, 1978 Tape 349 IB-2 MR. SIMMONS: Perhaps one of those days,Mr. Chairman, we will have some rhyme or reason into the House

schedule so that we can come here in the Fall and do some legislation if there is legislation to be done. We can come in here in January and talk about the broad direction the Province should be taking under the aegis of a Thro~e Speech debate. And then probably in February get a Budget and a Budget debate and then there will be no need for the exercise we are going through now, Mr. Chairman. Does everybody realize, Mr.

Chairman, the only reason we are spending the next two or three days on Interim Supply is because this government has dragged its feet, that this government has not done the things it should have done in terms of fiscal management of the Province? Does anybody realize, Mr. Chairman, that the reason we are here now, a scant week before the end of the month,is because this government neglected to bring in a Budget a month or two months ago. Now last year, Mr. Chairman, there was a good reason and we understood. Last year the explanation had to do with the then impending closing of Labrador Linerboard.

There were large financial questions involved, so we understand. But how long, Mr. Chairman, do you go on understanding when in effect you realize what is really happening is that the government is afraid to open the House1 They put it off until the last possible minute and when they once do open the House, Mr. Chairman, they put up a buffoon who screams at us for an hour or so, impresses only himself. Certainly they could have put up one of the men over there, Mr. Chairman, at least. AN RON. MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMONS: So, Mr.

Chairman, let there be no doubt as to why we are here on March 21 discussing Interim Supply-because the boys here on the hill did not do their homework. And, Mr. Chairman, while this crowd was not doing its homework let it be said, Mr. Chairman, certain other boys were, certain other fellows were. The credit boys in New York were doing their work. The P.R.boys in Montreal were doing their work and we have the result right here, Mr. Chairman. Do not blame 968

larch 21, 1978 Tape 349 IB- 3 }!R. STIIHONS: t.he Minister of Finance for this document. Do not give him the credit for the document. The credit, t-he blame is not. his , ~!r. Chairman , he was but the mouthoiece . He was but the Lieutenant - Governo r without the trappings. He was do±ng j ust as the Lieutenant Governor does when he comes in here and reads the Speech from the Throne. He was reading a document that was put together for him by othe .r peol'le. And in that respect, ~ . Chairm.an, this document represents a couple of important firsts in this Province and in chis House. First of all, 9o9

aarch 21, 1978 Tape No. 350 mr- 1 HR. SIMMONS: I would submit, Mr. Chairman, that it is the first Budget Speech, if I may call it that loosely, it is the first budget speech written outside the Province, written outside the Province. Let there be no mistake about it, Mr. Chairman, this document was written by the PR guys in Hontreal. The beautiful language. is it any wonder the minister was so eloquent? -written in Nontreal, Hr. Chairman, the PR boys in Hontreal wrote that one, the credit boys in New York dictated it.

Writ ten in :-lontreal, uictated in ~ew York, foisted in Newfoundland, foisted on the people of Newfoundland and Labrador, but do not blame the minister, Mr. Chairman, do not. lle •.Jas put in that position for a very good reason, Hr. Chairman. One thing the Premier has.and that is good political savvy on most issues and when he picks a Hinister of Finance he picks a dilly.

It is not the Hinister of Finance should we be blaming, but the administration as a whole that has allowed themselves to be manoeuvered into a position where the memo from Montreal dictates that the Budget will be written there, that the Special Action Group will be concocted there, that most of th~ money on it will be spent there in ~iontreal, that dictates that the seal hunt fiasco will be packaged in Montreal, the money for it will be spent in l1ontreal. Blame i the administration as a whole, Mr. Chairman, for that. Blame the administration as a whole, Mr.

Chairman, for the fact that they have manoeuvered themselves into another corner, where the overall consideration is not the needs of the people of this Province when they determine or cogitate on whether to increase taxes or decrease them, or whether to create job opportunities or •~hether to close Labrador Linerboard or leave it open. The people of Newfoundland and Labrador are not then the ones who dictate the terms of this Budget, but rather the credit boys in New York. 9i'O

~!a rc:h 21, 1978 Tape no . 350 ~I - 2 HR . SIMl:!ONS: ·A few days ago we were talking about Hydro and the increase. What was the best reason, what was the enly reason we got for an increase? Did we hear anybody say, did we hear the Premier say, did we hear any minister say we need the increase, Hydro needs the increase so it can better serve the customers? Did you hea.r that anywhere? Did you hear any rationale tha.t the zeal reason an increase was allegedly needed is because somehow Hydro wanted to serve t:lte customers of Hydro better. Not a chance.

What reason did you hear? \Ve got to look good in the bap.d market. The bond. market is calling the shots an Hydro. It is calling the shots an this particular budget, Mr. Chainnan. It is a sad day when we becOliie de facto a colony of New York, a fiscal, economic dependency of New York. The people of Newfoundland did nat make it so. This administration made it so. Hr. Chairman, I made reference a 1110ment ago to that shamefully infamous game called the Special Action Group. It is special, Mr. Chairliian, Never before has a gove=ent sunk to such depths ta lash out some slush fund 1110ney.

It is special in that sense. It is action, Hr. Chail'lllan 0 If I were the vice-president and general manager of a PR fil'lii sitting in Montreal, and I wrote a memo in ;Iune 1977 proposing this to the premier of a province, and seven months later not only was my proposal accepted, initiated, but also I was getting a $2 million kickback, I would call that action. I would call that action, Hr. Chairman. How is that for action? 971. I 1'-

Tape No. 3Sl JH - 1 MR. 5Ii:-ll."10NS: It is rightly named, Hr. Chairman. It is special. I will say it is special. It is action. A fellow in Hontreal cannot be complaining about the action he got. This Special Action Grouo, Mr. Ci:lairman, I believe announced sometime in January,since then in about two wonths tney have managed to lash out .$1,100,000 on pictures- $l,lu0,000 on tv, radio, newsprint advertisin6, And one other item I uid not mention, there is a fair fee in there, a fair fee. Do not get the impression that the media of thi." province are l!;etting all tllat money.

T'1ey are getting just a arop of it, just a c.rop. Nost of it is going to Nontreal. Two months or three months $l,lvu,OOO on a resource public relations programme. ;~ow, }lr. Chairman, when you see tnat kind of a suohead in a budget, ~lr. Chairman, you assume it is there for a reason. You ask yourself tne question, why would tney n.:ed a resource public relations programme? And you have to assume that they need it because tne message of wnat loans are available, what government assistance is available has not got across to the people. Now, ~lr.

Chairman, this is the honourable crowd that bas i1ad the Rural Development Authority going since 1972. This is the nonourable crowd that claims credit for the ~ewfoUI1dland and Labrador Development Corporation which was actually in motion before they got into power. There are two agencies, ~lr. Chairman, which together dispense just about all the money that is available through provincial sources, provincial government sources - Newfoundland and Labrador vevelopment Corporation and tne kural Development Authority. They have been going six years under tnis aclLiinistration.

Are they telling us six years later they failed to get the message across, ti1at ti"1e RDA is there, tn.at t.le Qevelopment corporation is there? HR. PECKFORD: The RDA was not there? HR. SIHHONS: I have said,and the minister probably was not listening, but I said that the RDA was brought in soon after this administration came in. And in that six years, Mr. Chairman, they have obviously now admitted t!~at t!1ey do not have the message across that these loans were available, this funding was available. Because, ~:r. Chair@an, what is 972

:·larch .n, 197.3 Tape do, 351 Ji'i - 2 HR. SIHHONS: this special action group? It is a number - 737-3~00, on one point the Premier has brainwashed me, SOl1E dON. HEHllERS: Hea