Volume 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st Session VERBATIM REPORT Monday, June 19, 1972 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 33 C

June 19, 1972 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR.SPEAKER: Order! Tape 798. HONOURABLE FRANK D. MOORES(PREMI~R): Mr. Speaker, I would like to make a statement to the members of ~e House regarding the meetings in Halifax over the weekend of the five Eastern Provinces with the four Atlantic Premiers and the Vice-Premier of Quebec. The result of those meetings was a seven-point agreement outlining the areas of co-operation between the provinces.

In arriving at the seven points, a number of topics related to offshore resourceswere discussed including ownership, financial arrangements and development. The seven points are: 1. The proposal concerning offshore mineral resources made by the Government of Canada on November 29, 1968, and as announced in the House of Commons on December 2, 1968, is not acceptable to the five Eastern Provinces. 2. The Governments of the five Eastern Provinces have agreerl to the delineation and description of the offshore boundries between each of these five Provinces. JM - 1 3.

The five Eastern Provinces assert ownership of the mineral resources in the seabed off the Atlantic Coast and in the Gulf of St. Lawrence in accordance with the agreed boundries. 4. The five Eastern Provinces as a united ~roup will seek discussions with the Government of Canada concerning arrangements related to the development of the offshore resources in those areas. 5. The five Eastern Provinces are prepared to discuss with the Federal Government the delegation of certain aspects of the administration of the mineral resources in the 2f91 ....

June 19, 1972 Tc1pe 798 seabed off the Atlantic Coast and the Gulf of St. Lawrence. 6. The Premiers agreed that the concept of a Rep.ional Administrative Authority was worthy of further studv by the Provinces concerned. 7. The matter of financial arrangements in the offshore area will be a subject of further study and we have arranged for ongoing consultations. Mr. Speaker, apart from the agreements themselves, t~e meetings also provided two very real benefits.

The greatest benefit is perhaps the creation of a solid front to voice a single strong opinion on the offshore question rather than fragmented voices as in the past. The second benefit is the joining of the Province of Quebec with the Atlantic Provinces in this matter and the common decision of each of the five Provinces that further meetings should be held soon. The depth of co-operation and the readiness to discuss this problem by all those present at the meetings would indicate that inter-provincial co-operatim on a number of other issues might be expected as well.

It must be stressed that the meetings did not attempt to make concrete decisions on particular nroblems. It must be clear that the meetings succeeded only in creating a common philosophy on the question and a procedural method will follow throur.h. Premier Regan of Nova Scotia, who chaired the meetings, stated strongly that further co-operation between the Governments represented and the gathering of a great deal of scientific and other information must come before final decisions are made on matters such as sharinp. administration costs and duties.

Steps have been taken to inform the Prime Minister of Canada of the decisions that were made. I think the meetings were very worthwhile, not 1ust for 2(92 \ ,n, - 2

.lune 19, 1972 Tape 798 JM - 3 Newfound land but for Eas tern Cana da as a whole. I thi nk that if we work and prod uce on the base built in llal i fax over the week e nd, we can come up with some really worthwhil e achievements. lllewfo undland has a un:l.qne case, Mr . Speaker, regardinr- offshore ownership. All the five Provinces in Eas tern C:inacla have claims to offs hore resources, bnt Newfoundland has a claim in writin~, draf t ed and sii;ned hy Federal Authoritie s 2nd thHt is Tel11' 37 of the Terms of Union.

Lej?ally and cons ti t\·tionally, ~ewfoundland has the strength to fi~ht any at tempt to take the s e resourc es away. Mr. Speake.r, I am very pleased to report t he de)!:ree of co - operation that there was between the min:l.sters, the first ministers, at Hali fax, and to r epor t hack to the House that it was a ve ry unit e d position that the five Eastern Province s took in this verv imnortant matter to our Province. 2493 -~-

June 19, 1972 Tape 7qg (afternoon) T'K - 1 Mf'>TIONS PON •. _L~ J-TTCK~'.AN · (l'fHlTSTER OF .JTJSTICF.): }1r. Speaker , I p.:f.ve notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a hi.11, "An Act To Provide A 'Pension For The Retiring Registrar nf The Supreme Court.,. On hehalf of the honourable Minister of l'ir,hways, a hill, "An Act Further To Amend The Fip.hway Traff-le Act, 1962." On behalf of the honourahle Minister of ~ines, Agriculture and Resources, a bill, ''An Act Further To Amend The Nomenclature Jloard Act, 1951)." "OJI! • .J. A. CARTER, (MINISTF.R OF EDUCATION AND YnU'.l'H) : Mr.

Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a hill, ··An Act Further To Amend The Memorial University Act." OUESTIONS HON. L C. CR9SBIE: (}IJNtSTER OF FINANCE AND ECONOMIC DEVFLOn!El\JT) : "r. Speaker, I have the answer to nuestion 100 tabled hy the honourable teader of the Opposition on the Order Paper dated June 12. The answer to a verhal question, Hr. Speaker, asked by the honourable member for Bell Island concerninp employment at Stephenville. This is a report for the week ending June 11.

The name of the employer - ~kAlpine, 312 Newfoundlanders, sixteen from outside the province, 9l1. 9 percent Newfoundlanders, Frazier Brace staff, four Newfoundlanders . twenty-three from outside of the province. Frazier Rrace Trades, 584 Newfoundlanders or Newfoundland residents , 137 from outsi .de of the province. There is no need for tut~ tutl The honourable gentleman knows that these are pipefitters, instrument mechanics and millwrights ~•hich position cannot be obtained here in Newfounrlland.

Frazier Brace,Woodroom, ninety-two Newfoundland residents, nineteen from outside of the province, subcontractors 340 Newfoundland residents, thirty-eight from outside of the province, Specialist Erecta~s, no Newfoundlanders, nine from outside of the province, Bonavista Foods, fifty-eight Newfoundland residents , four from outside of the province, E and B. Cowan, four Newfoundlanders and seven from outside 2i94

June 19. 1972 Tape 7oq (afternoon) PK - 2 '·1P. CROSBIE· ,-.f the province, Labrador Linerboard, e:i,evf'n Newfoundlanders, two from outside of the province, for a total of 1 :,40'i i'!ewfoundland residents and 255 outside residents or 81.9 percent of the work force Newfoundland residents, the total work force is lf,60 people. There are some copies here for the honourahJe member and the press. ORDERS OF THE DAY ~Ill • W • N • ROWE : Mr.

Speaker, on Orders of the nay, I would like to direct a question to the honourable Minister of Econo!'lic Development, Sir, T would have thought that it would go to the Minister of Fisheries hut apparently on a newscast he said that the 'fini.ster of Economic Development was responsible for this particular matter, so T wiJl direct the question to him.

Would the honourable minister hriefly give us the 1rnvernment plans regardinp, the continued operation of the Tlurgeo Fish Plant? /1nd more snecifically, have the p:overnment found a buyer and if not ~•ill the Lake interests continue to operate the plant or will some other party do so? ',fR, CROSBIE· In respect to that question actually I think it should he directed to the Minister of Fisheries or the Premier. Rut the position at the moment is that the government l'lre operating the Rurgeo Fish Plant and no one else.

No agreement has heen entered into on :Lt,that I know of in any event. ''R • ROlfE , W • N • Do the Lake interests have anything to do with the ope.ration of the plant now, besides the boats, in the operation of the plant itself? Answer inaudible. MR NEARY: Mr, Speaker, may I direct a question to the honourable the Premier? I wonder if the honourable the Premier t,•ould inform the Fouse what measures the Government is taking or has taken to make sure Newfoundland interests get preference to the permanent job opportunities 2~95 .... , · ..

.lune 19. l'l72 Tnpe 799 (afternoon) PK - ) J.IB..· NEARY: at Churchil 1 l'alls? ~1!_._1!9_0R_!"!:.<;_;_ I ,~111 takE' notice of that question, Mr. SpP.aker. M~. NEARY: Mr. Speaker . thi.s iB a rather urp.ent matter, T wonder if the Premier could indicate when we could p.et an answer to the Question? "Ill_. 1-100~ t took notice of it. m:. Speaker. and I will Jtet the information as quickly as I can. !_I_R_._NEAR!.:. Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Fishe ries, for the sake of the record, the minister has alreacly indicated to me hefore the Jlouse opened what steps he has taken. But for the sake of the record, I wonder if the minister would 2496

June 19, 1972, Tane 8()() Page 1. (afternoc

t) inform the House what stens he or his denartment '.tavf' tat:en to remedy the almost criminal waste of fish at Torhav which has to be dumped almol;t dailv due to lack of markets. MR. CHEESEHAN: Mr, Speaker, I was actuallv and at one ooint, before the honourable memher for White Rav rose 1 to rise on a point of personal nr:l.v:f lege i.n ccinnecti on with your question. 1 t i;.,ould aopear from news reports, both in the "naily News" and one or two of the radio stations thilt there w/ls some confusion concernin!! the situation at Torbav and in fact the

interpretation of whnt had heen said or done ahont it. Since this will give me an ouoortunity n<>rhans to de;ir up the entire matter; First of all, on Thursdav and Friday the Denartment of FisheriP.s were aware of the situation th:cit existed in connection with the 11urplus of fish heinr landed at Torbav. Our officials had been in touch with the fish nlant> in the 11111t1ediate area, that is i.n the area which was comddered nrar.tical to ta'.:e uo this surplus. including the fish nlant located in St •. John's itself.

We have heen in touch with the Canadian S~lt Fish Cornoration and we are pleased to obtain the cooperation of the Cana,lian Salt Fish Cornoration ,throuvh their ap,ents, to take up some of the slack. Now it was reported afterwards that the traps had been hauled on Saturday because of the statement attributed to me, because of :mother statement attrihuted to me that I had assured the fishermen that this situation would not arise again. Of course it is erroneous.

I made no such statement, I think you would have to be, any man would have to be a braver man than I 11m to make such a statement regarding fish landfnp;s anv1,,hc-re ln Newfound I and. However the denartment 1.s fullv aware of the situation, as it exists. It i.s a most unfortunate situation It is. In this day and age when everv pound of food is needed,then certainly every effort must be made to 2497

Tape 800 Par,e 2, utilize every pound of fish and in fact to see that the fishermen through t· heir earnings r,et the benefit of their catch. To this end our denartment has been for the past four or five days and will continue to follow the situation closely and to be of whatever assistance we can. One further comment I would like to make also was the fact that :It would annear again from press and radio,which I had an opnortunity to strair.hten out,I think with radio stations this morning,perhaps for tlw henefit of the press now, I was in town and available all over the weekend.

I hone- does that answer the ouestion '/ ~•R ,NEARY: I thank the honourable minister for giving me the answer to the 11uestion. I hope that the department will continue to follow un that si tuat:I on. I 1,•as nbt referring to the honourable minister when I said that the fishermen could not contact the gover-nment representatives . I was referring to the absentee and ill-tempered Minister of Social Services & Rehabilitation, the member for the district of St, John's East, F.xtern. MJ ..!.THOMS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Highways.

Recause traffic at the present time is very heavy on the Trans-Canada Highway, we are having many highway accidents. Would the minister inform this House when his department will start painting wh:lte lines on our highways? ~fR. MAYNARD: Mr. Speaker, the reason for the delay in painting the white lines should be obvious to most people. Mother Nature saw fit to keep the snow on the ground a little hit longer than usual this spring. Bu the contract for oainting of the - I must correct that,it is yellow lines - :l.s let, the work is going on now and it will be completed as soon as poss:1.hle.

We have our own machines on pl us the contractors. MR.THOMS: Mr. Speaker, may I ask the Minister of Highways, do I take 2498

·, June 19, 1972. Taoe 800. Page 3. it from his statement that this vear all lines ,dll be yellow? MR.MAYNARD: All main lines, centre lines, oassing lanes,this sort of thing will be yellow. t•R.WI~SOR H:! phwavs? 'fay I direct a question to the honourable Minister of 2499 (:

JUfte 19, 1972 Tape No, 801 NC - 1 in view of the very dry weather we are getting now and the very dusty roads through certain connnunities in Fogo District, namely Carmanville, and Gander Bay and Stoneville. These are centres where you have the heavy traffic moving to and fro, one from Fogo Island and the other to New World Island. Can the minister inform the House whether it is the intention of the Department of Highways to oil the streets there? Some reference was made some time ago that those roads would be paved but,as I said, I am not that naive to think that they will be all paved this summer.

But surely the minister can inform us whether it is the intention of his department to provide oil to keep the choking dust down a bit, }ffi, MAYNARD: Mr. Speaker, the policy of the Department of Highways now and the policy which has existed for a number of years in relation to oiling of roads through connnunities is simply this, that if the people in the community, either through their council or through any ~ecognized group representing the public in the community,will undertake to purchase the oil, the Department of Highways will undertake to supply their equipment to spread the oil on the road.

But the Department of Highways has not in the past, and the policy has not been changed at this time,.whereby they buy the oil and spread it too, If the communities will buy it, the Department will spread it. m. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, I can unde~stand communities where you have local improvement boards or community council but in communities where you have no organizations at all, and it is very difficult,and I am thinking now of Clarke's Head and Stonev ,:f,lle, there is no local improvement board there or community council.

Maybe if the department would undertake to provide the oil and perhaps make some arrangements with the local people there, because Mr. Speaker, it is a desperate situation down there now with all this dry weather, m. MAYNARD: Mr. Speaker, there are approximately 4,000 miles of gravel roads in Newfoundland and if we do it for one mile of gravel road in any one connnunity, quite naturally we will be obligated to do it 2500

June 19, 1972 Tape No. 801 . NC - 2 for all the people. In order to do even one half of those g.ravel roads, it will cost in the vicinity of $2 million and thi.s is obviously · money that we do not have and will not have for this coming year. ORPERS OF THE PAY On motion a Bill, "An Act Respecting The Registration And Regulation ftf Automobile Dealers And The Salesmen Of Such Pealers," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion a Bill, "

An Act Respecting The Registration And Regulation Of Collection Agencies," read a £i rs t time, orde.red read a s.econd time on tomorrow. 2501

June 19. 1972, Tape 802 , Page 1 -- apb On motion, a Bill, "An Act Respectinp- The Registration And Rei!ulations Of Credit Reporting Agencies.' read a firs ·· time, ordered read a second time on toroorrow. J\-fR. SPEAKER: -- --·--- - Order no. (1). COJ-™ITTEF. OF SUPPLY: Heading VI, Education and Youth, 604--04 MR_._J'_~B~P._9}.JF~· _ Mr. Chairman, I was in the course of my remarks concerning 604--05 during last sitting when we reached six of the clock, The point that I was trying to make at that particular time was that we on this side of the House, Mr.

Chairman, were extremely concerned over the fact that there was a distinct possibility that some students who had intended to or who had planned to attend the university in the coming year, may in fact not be ahle to so so for financial reasons. Now, Sir, I will continue to speak about that point at the risk of being accused of, as I fear I am already being accused of, being overly concerned about the university as an institution .

Sir , I would like to say that as fAr as I am concerned, I do not care about the university as an institution in itself, outside of the fact of course, Sir. that considering the contribution that this universit y will make towards the future development of this province. What I am concerned about, and I repeat again, is some students having to borrow an additional two hundred dollars and findini! that they have no lon ger the opportunity to take advantage of the four hundred dollar special bursary for education students.

This may in fact turn some of these students unwillingly away from the unviersity during the corning year. I think that if we are at all approaching the point where we do not have an open door policy for qualified students in our university,the future of Newfoundland is being endan2ered. narticularly when we consider the fact that we only have half the national average of the students attending our university. Only half of the national averai!e. When we have a situation approaching where financial capacity 2502

June 19, 1972, Tape 802, Paire 2 - - apb becomes more important than intellectual capacity for at tendance at university, 1 think we are ap,proaching serious trouble. Sir, one other point that: 1 wanted to touch on,which 1 think comes under this particular heading, is this business of graduate fellowships . What I would like to know from the honourabl e Minister of Finance basically,as well as p.ducation, Sir, is where this one hundred and thirty ,gradua te fellowships came from in the first place? We understoo d from the 2503

June 19, 1972. Tape 803, Page 1. budget speech that there was to be a reduction from 130 to 90 graduate fellowships in the coming year, It was never my understanding that there was a number placed on the number of graduate fellowships at the university. My understanding was that the 11niversity had a number of graduate students applyinp. to that institution.

Some of these applicants, some of these students,if thev were admitted to the university ,applied for graduate fellowshins. >.fy understanding was that the graduates fellowshin or scholarsh1.p committee met, went over these app]ications and thev recommended a number of graduate feUowships for certain numbers of students at the university. I heUeve last year it tl!rned out to he sornethtng li'-: e 116 fellowships were p:ranted to - rraduate feL.lowshtps were granted to 116 graduate students. I believe another 16 for next vear.

I thought the criteria obviously used for this was such things as academic standards and residency requirements. The sources for these p,raduate fellowships 1 of course 1 were both from the provincial government and from the university itself.

T thi . k where this 130 or 135 came from is a combination of the 116 fellowshiPs,graduate fellowships already in existence .and those which would have to continue on the next vear, plus the sixteen nelo.' ones for the c;1ming years. '- As you know these graduate fellowships for the Masters level is over two years, twenty-four month, I think and as far as doctoral fellowship 1 graduate fellowship are concerned, it -ts over 'a thirty- six months period.

Sir, my understanding is this, that there are fiftv-nine graduate students at the university this year who have been recommended to receive graduate fellowships,who will not now receive those graduate fel lowshins because of the new policy as announced by thii. administ:rat:1.on in this budp.:et speech. Fifty-nine graduate students •. 2504

June 19, 19;'2. Taoe 803. Page 2. Sir, I believe this represents only something like $147,000. While I, Sir, do not want to annear to be reckless with monev,$147,000 out of a total of $128 million appears to be a bit of a dron in the bucket. Si.r, these graduate students are in engineerinJ?, arts, sciences and educat:l.on. Were it not for the fact that we are lackin!? in qualified and professional neonle in this province, I would not be concerned. But, Sir, we are lackinp in these people in this province.

We count on these orofessional neople for leadership in our schools, in industrv, everywhere aroun .d this orovince. To see the possihilitv - to see fifty­ nine gradu;ite studentR who have already plnnned to go to the universitv not receive these ~2,500 fellowships. Some of those persons are, of r.nurse . . narried with children and , '. ,.,ve to move awav from their homes for this oeriod of studv,ro ;eopardize their chances of getting this nrofessional training and going out into societv and making a contribution to Newfoundland, the building of Newfoundland,! think it is a crime.

If I can only take one sm~ll area, Sir, in the field of education in this province, We have 850 administrators Eip.ht hundred and fifty persons whoare in charr.e of schools and school RVStems 1 administrators. Si.r, all too many of these administrators h;we not had p.:raduate education. In other words they have not had the opportunity, all too manv of them have not had the onnortunitv to re~lly become professionally qualified for the johs that they are now forced to carry out in our schools and our school system&.

We only have approximately fifteen graduates per ye:ar,that is in administration, administration in education, fifteen graduates per year. The suggestion that I have had, Sir, and this is from reliable sources,is that approximately one-half of these students (not a suggestion) are on graduate fellowships. The suggestion that was made to me by a personal authority is that it is quite conceivable that there be a one-third cut back. The total programme in the education 2505 ..... , ..

.Tune 1 q, T 972 Tape 804 of qualified administrators who serve the schools of this province, this programme will be cut by one-third in this coming year because of the reduction in the number of graduate scholarships that will be available to our students.

Sir, I say again that at the risk of sounding like or being a ccused of havinp. only the interests of the university institutions at heart,which I deny of course, I just cannct see the sense in cutting these !!raduate scholarships back this year,when it means so little money being saved by this administration;when we consider how important.professionally, properly qualified people are to the educational system an<l other aspects of our total community here in the provincE'. Sir, l think twas going to mention this business.

Yes, the honourable ~inister of Education in reply to a question that I ask him 1n the House some time back finally admitted, Sir, that he did JM - 1 ind eed say on the platform two days before an election at the university, ,1 id tell the students that it was not their intention to increase the amount that a student would have to borrow in order to qualify for provincial as si s tance. It was going to be held at $400.00 but since the election it has been increased to $600.00, a $200.00 amount, This is the amount that a student would have to borrow in order to qualify for provin c ial assistance. ~ Sir.

I will not talk about the political sinicism that the ~inister of Finance so often uses or the hypocrisy or the political di s llon,:,stv c,f this. I would simply ask why it has been necessary to increase the amount that a student has to borrow in order to qualify for nrovincial assistance? He suggested in his prepared answer to rnv nucstion. the honourable Minister of Education, that since that rim e some adjustment has been necessary. Sir, I wonder if the fact that the nrovincial election is now over is the reason for this 2506

June 19, 1972 Tape 804 JM - 2 increase from $400.00 to $600.00. -~ _.__f_A_!TE~: There are quite a number of points there, Mr. Chairman, to cover. I will cover them one at a time as best I can. In the first place I cannot really blame the honourable member for St. Barbe North for all the ills that happened f.n the last four or five years because I th:f.nk we all agree that the worst ills happened since 1966. His brother and his father certainly must bear a fair degree of the responsibility. ~ HON...:. MEMBER: (Inaudible) . MR. CARTER: One moment. I have the floor I believe, Mr. Chairman.

However, the reason obviously for any adjustments that have been made is precisely because of the mess that the previous administration left this province's finances in. I have said it before, I say it now and I will certainly be more than happy to say it again, not happy to say it again I will be prepared to say it again. It does not make me happy to say that Newfoundland's finances were left in a mess and it should not make any honourable member happy. AN HON. MEMBER: You should have known that the day before the election. ~~!. __ C_!l._!TE~;__ We did. We knew it very well. ~ ._ ~-~~13c :_ Mr.

Chairman, I have the floor I believe. Would you call him to order. The honourable gentleman has suggested that the future of Newfoundland is endangered. I say that the past of Newfoundland was endangered and I am very happy that a change has occurred. Now as to the 604(05), it is really two items. It is the graduate fellowships and it is the M.U,N. tuition and allowances. In fact I suppose you could say it is three headings but for the sake of discussion I think we can call it two headings. The graduate fellowships are pegged at ninety. We intend to reduce the number of fellowships available to 2507

.June 19, 1972 Tape 004 ninety. At the moment we are paying 116 because of commitments. There are seven applications that are going to have to be closely looked at because there are some special circumstances there. We only know of twenty-seven more applications beyond the 116. Now the thing there is that the honourable member for St. Barbe North left the impression, I doubt if it was deliberate, but certainly the impression was left with this House that if these fellowships were not increased that a number of qualified people would be unable to pursue post-graduate studies.

Well that is not strictly correct because graduate students are eligible for the Canada Student Loan Programme and for the tuition and allowances. If the need is there they can qualify for, I believe it is nearly $2,400,whereas the fellowship is $2,500. The fellowship obviously is free. You r,et it and you do not have to repay anything. The Canada Student J,oan $1,400 plus the provincial share, you do not have to repay the provincial share but you do have to repay the Canada Student Loan. There is the difference between the two programmes.

But this is not to say that nearly $2,500 is not available to post-graduate students. So I have to dismiss the charge that there will be graduate students who will be unable to partake of post-graduate studies. It will be that much more difficult for them I will admit. Certainly you cannot make a comparison between say the r.ity of Toronto and the Province of Newfoundland. In Toronto any student or a student can very easily find part-time employment. The service industries there are so numerous and at such a level that it is very, very easy for a student to find employment

whereas here it is not that easy. That is one of the reasons why the Student Loan Programme in Newfoundland is rather more generous than the one in Ontario and I think rightly so,and it is our intention to try and keep it like that. 2508 JM - 3

June 19, 1972 Tape 804 On the business of increasing it from $400.00 to $600.00, I had genuinely hoped that we would be able to keep it at $400.00 but the more we sharpened our pencils, the more we tried, We could not obviously cut maintenance grants. We could not and would not cut capital grants and still and all under 604(05) last year it was $3,685,500 and this year it is $3,780,000, not a dramatic increase. not a big increase but an increase nevertheless. Therefore, Mr. Chairman, I respectfully submit that 604(05) - M.U.N. tuition and allowances be carried. ~:_ROWE(F.B.): Mr.

Chairman, I certainly did not SU/!'gest that there would be fifty-·nine rraduate students who would have to give up their stuc1ies this year as a result of this decrease in the number of praduate fellowships. What I simply said was that there are to my knowledge fifty-nine graduate students who have been recommended JM - 4 for the graduate fellowship who will not now get t''is fellowship because of the cut backs and the fact that we have 116 post-graduate fellowships,who have to continue on into next year,and we had already sixteen committed for September.

But, Sir, I certainly suggest that there is a possibility,knowing some of the graduate students as I do, it is a great sacrifice for those people with families, with mortgages and being out of town,to come in to this university and do graduate studies. It is a great sacrifice indeed, Sir, and an awful lot of them are depending upon that $2,500 and some of these people are older people. Let me emphasize something else, Sir, that these students are all Newfoundland students 2509 ,~._ , ....

June 19, 19 72 Tape No. 805 NC - 1 They are not outside of Newfoundland students. This is my understanding. The people who get these provincial graduate fellowships or the monies from the Provincial Government are all graduate students from the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. MR. CARTER: On that very point, Mr. Chairman, the hon. gentleman looks at the floor when he criticizes this particular programme.

No one pretends for a moment that it is easy for a student, undergraduate postgraduate or at the doctoral level, especially if he is married with children, mortgage, family responsibilities and all the rest of it and moreover to undertake graduate studies and particularly if he has been out of college for several years and has gotten out of the habit of study. Even under the best of circumstances, with all kinds of financial support,it is not easy. No one is saying that it is. In fact it is extremely difficult.

All we are saying is that this Rovernment is helping to the limit of its resources and if the hon. gentleman wishes to blame anyone I suggest there is the remanents of the former government across there,Four members , of which are still sitting there and he may very well look at them and should blame them because I said before and I will say it again, it is their responsibility that there is so little in the till. MR, ROWE (F.B.): Mr. Chairman, the hon. minister is suffering from a persecution complex. I cannot remember having blamed anybody for anything.

I was just bringing up a few simple facts that I have collected over the past few days and I simply said that there were fifty-nine students who needed graduate fellowships and I simply made the statement that $147,000,in a total budget of $128,000,000, appears to me to be a drop in the bucket when it is compared to the contribution that graduate students can make once they graduate from this university, in the field of education, in the field of engineering, in the fields of science and the humanities,in the art. That is all I am saying. I 2510

June 19, 1972 Tape No, 805 NC-2 am not blaming anybody. Probably I could ask the hon, minister if he would reconsider this cut-back from - reconsider.

Since this $147,000 is so small in comparison with everything else and when we consider the importance of graduate studies in this Province of ours, when we have not had graduate studies for a very long time,where we do not have great numbers of graduate students and we have not had them for any great number of years, I suggest that the more graduates, at the master and doctors level, that we can turn out of this university the better , We keep hearing cases of having to go outside of this Province for doctors, for nurses, for engineers, even for teachers, There are a lot of foreign teachers in this Province and we hav'-' had to go outside to get foreign teachers to teach in some of the schools of our province.

In my own district there was one school there, half of the teachers in that particular school were teachers from outside of Newfoundland. I still maintain, Sir, that in the field of leadership,in education in particular, in the field of guidance counselling, in the field of administration, in the field of curriculum and instructional development, that we need a great number more people for leadership in these particular segments of our society. I will ask the minister if he would in fact reconsider this particular cut back.

I think it is really an unnecessary cut back for the amount of money that appears to be saved. MR. CARTER: I would agree, Mr. Chairman, with the hon, gentleman. It is unfortunate that we have not got $147,000 more that we can spend on this particular subhead but again I say that we cannot. We have done all we can and I would recommend this entire budget to this House and I feel that we have gone as far as we can go. This is not to say that the need does not exist, nor that the need is not even greater than the hon, member suggests.

I agree with him one hundred per cent.· The need is there and it would be a very desirable subhead to increase, But unfortunately we have done the best 2511

.T11ne 19, 1972 Tape No. 805 NC - 3 we can with the resources we have and therefore,! recommend 604-05 be passed, MR. ROWE (WM.) : Mr. Chairman, before that subhead is passed, I would like to have a word or two to say on this particular matter. Mr. Chairman, what do we need more than anything else in Newfoundland and Labrador today? I would submit, Sir, that more than any single thing we need in this province trained people, professionally trained people.

People who are trained in various trades and vocational training, engineers, professional people, doctors, all types of skilled labour, skilled trades, and skilled professionals that is the single most urgent need in this province today.

We have heard the Minister of Finance get up on one or two occasions and the Minister of Labour get up on one or two occasion and mention that in various projects, seventy or eighty or ninety per cent of the work force is Newfoundland and by inference saying that the fifteen or twenty or thirty per cent who are not Newfundland are from outside the province, Ind usually these people from outside the province are people who have special training for special jobs, They are the highest paid people, They are the people who make the most money and ordinarily would make the greatest contribution to a place like Newfoundland and Labrador, So therefore, Sir, any attempt by any government to cut down on the estimates, to cut down on a vote which goes toward the professional training of people or the skilled training of people in this province is a retrograde step.

It is an unprogressive and backward looking step. Now the hon. minister will get up and he will say, "we had to do it because of the last administration." T:hat may or may not be so. Sir, the present administration might indeed have to find an extra $147,000 from the budget in order to try to balance the budget this year. But, Sir, there are one hundred if not one thousand, there are at least one htmdred places in the estimates, not only in the hon. minister's 2512

June 19, 1972 Tape No. 805 NC - 4 department but throughout the whole estimates, at least one hundred places $100,000 would not be missed in some of the larger programmes, some of the larger votes in these estimates before us. One hundrP<I thousand or there about, $147,000 represents less I believe than one fifth of one percent of the total estimates before us for approval. I would submit, Sir, that even if the $100,000 were simply put in the budge without trying to find countervailing savings elsewhere, it would not go very far in bankrupting this province.

If, Sir, it would go towards the bankruptcy of this province then I am sure the hon. Minister of Finance, with help from his colleagues, would find $147,000 from some other subhead, some other vote of these estimates.

To come in here and to cringingly state that he cannot find $100,000 to helr the further training of profess-ional people in this province,who are so urgently needed, cannot find money to invest in that very, very excellent investment toward the Newfoundland society,Persons who will get this training will more than produce one hundred fold to the benefit of Newfoundland and Labrador, one hundred fold more than the oI"iginal investment made in them,of several hundred dollars O".' a couple of thousand dollars. It is a retrograde and unprogressive step to cut out this kind of a programme.

The money should be found for it, If it cannot be found in some other subhead in the estimates, Sir, then it should be found any­ way, it should be added. It is just another example, I would say, of the honourable Minister of Education being the head of a department which is much too large for him, which he cannot competently handle. I do not blame the honourable Minister of Finance for insisting that this $100,000 be cut out. It is not his fault, Sir.

His job is to try to balance the budget, But for the honourable Minister of Education to stand up in this House today and say that he could not find or that he could not get in the budget another $100,000 for such a progressive and urgently needed programme shows, Sir, not a bankruptcy of this province but a bankruptcy 2513

June 19, 19 72 Tap~ No. 805 NC - 5 of competence on his part for him to allow such an urgently needed, such a wise programme to 2514

JUNE 19, 1972 Tape 806 (afternoon) PK - 1 MR.~ O~:..:...~-N. be more or less obliterated, well not almost whiped out but to be so severely reduced is a terrible indictment on this handlin~ of the Department of Education. MR. CARTER: Before the honourable Minister of Finance has a few words, the honourable member for White nay ~outh is missinf! the point I think. The point surely is that although we fundamentally agree that more and mure money could be used in this subhead,nevertheless we must not lose sight of the fact that our programme of aid for students is one of the most generous probably in all of Canada.

I am rather sorry to see the official oppos:l .tion take the positton of destructive critics. They seems to have so very few ideas of · their own. Thev are exhihitinf! sort of a political kleptomania. you know, with no ideas of their own just the ideas that we are trying to put forth,and to criticize them. I think it is unfortunate, I think it is obviously leading to a great prolonging of this debate, of this getting the estimates through. I have no objection in the world to standing up here and answering any and all questions and defending the government's policy.

Rut any casual observer in this llouse would see that the most charitable complextion that could be put upon the debate so far under Heading - VI is that of mischievous obstructionism. I would therefore urge that the opposition stop heinp: philoso:··hical parasites and work together to get whatever information they feel should be had,to make any constructive criticism that may occur to tliem and to be as reasonably co-operative as possible and help us get these estimates through. MR. NEARY · Mr.

Chairman, the honourable minister,in his remarks just prior to taking his seat there, I am afraid has provoked me once again to enter into this debate. I had no intention, Mr. Chairman, of speaking on this head:1.ng. Jlut I would have to say, Sir, that the statement that the honourable minister just made . ~ir. the criticism that he .1ust levelled at the opposition for the sterling work that 2515

June 19. 1972 Tape 806 (afternoon) PK - 2 ~_ROWE_,~ they are doing and the positive attitude that they are taking towards the estimates result, Sir, from his complete ignorance of the history of this House in the past couple of years. If he wants to. Mr.

Speaker, I would suggest to the honourahle minister that if he wants to see some real delaying tactics and obstructionism in this honourable House that he take time out to consult Hansard 1 Then he will see some of the talkathons that have taken place and the time that has been wasted in this House by some honourable memhers sitting on the government side of the House, Mr. Chairman, who tried their level hest to see the government ground to a halt in this province over the last couple of years. The honourable member for St.

John's East,outside of the House over the weekend, Mr, Chairman, has been making similar statements about delaying tactics and obstructionism. I want to remind the honourable members who are makin!! these statements, Mr. Chairman, that last yea-i;, because of Tory obstructionism and petty bickerirr,, it took thirty- four sittings of this honourable House, Sir, thirty-four sittings to complete the estimates and this year, Mr.

Chairman, despite the necessary probing that has been going on by my colleagues on this side of the House, we are performing our duties, Sir, to the taxpayers of this province in a noble fashion. So far we have had only thirty-two sittings of this honourable House, Sir, ~-IR. ROWE,_ W. N. Including everything. "IR. _NEARY · Includinp: everything. Thi.rty-two sittings, Mr. Chairman, only thirty-two. Thirty-four last year to complete the estimates, thirty-two this year.

Thirty-two, Sir, to complete everything and this includes the Throne Speech Debate, the passing of the Interim Supply Bill, authorization of thirty-eight pieces of legislation including the linerboard legislation, Sir, which was dealt with so expeditiously by members of this side of the House. Mr, Chairman, we have completed seven departments in the estimates. The reason 2516

June 19, 1972 Tape 806 (afternoon) PK - 3 MR._ ROW_F., W. N. it is taking so long, Mr. Chainnan, to deal with the Department of Education,is because of the disgraceful way in which the estimates have been presented to this honourable House. MR._ CRO~~BIR: Mr. Chairman , it is almost a pleasure to hear the honourable member for Bell Island speak. However, I did not rise to address myself to what the honourable member for Bell Island had to say.

Last year or the year before when the estimates were being discussed, of course, there was a record of a government for twenty-three years where certainly four or five years were being discussed at the same time. At the present time this government have not been in office long enouph to have much of a record for the opposition to prohe when discussing the estjrnates. So I do not think that quite as much time should he necessary. However, be that as it may it is up to the members of the opposition.If they wish to take all the time they want to take, they can. That is the rule of this House.

We do not have any number of days set aside for estimates. He have no specific rules of procedure to deal with this, so it is up to them. I just want to say this, Mr. Chainnan, where the hon. rnemher for St Barbe North, in addressing himself to this vote I think he was saying, in effect that it was only $120 thousand or $130 thousand can be saved hy this particul -ir st·ep and therefore it should not be done and it should be taken off somewhere else. My question to the honourable member is this: If he wants to be helpful, where does he suggest that this $130 thousand be deleted from?

Where are the other - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER, Inaudible ---- ------ MR CROSBIE: Never mind. Spencer Lake is political nonsense. I am trying to talk sense. It could be taken perhaps from Labrador Linerboard, if the honourable gentleman's colleagues had not cost the province $160 million, but forget that. Forget Spencer Lake and forp,et Labrador Linerhoard. Where in the estimates does the honourable gentleman see $130,001) that should not he there? That is one question I would like 2517 .... !.'

June 1(), 1972 HR. CROSBIF: HON. HF~ERS: Tape 806 (afternoon) to ask the honourable gentleman, Inaudible. PK - 4 NR. CROSBIE: This is the silly season, Mr. Chairman. The honourable gentleman fulfils our hopes in that respect every afternoon. Where is he going to save the Sl30,000 or if the honourable gentleman opposite cannot sugpest to us, forp,et Spencer Lake because that is nonsense and we will forget Labrador Linerboard, if he can sugp,est to us the raising of a tax, perhaps we should raise other taxes,then the gentleman would have his $130,000. Let the opposition press for increased taxes.

They want this, they want the fellowships left, they want the mothers' allm,ance left, they want this spent, that spent, nothing cut, this done and that done, we already have a $3 million deficit forecast on currect accounts. They had almost $3 million or $4 million deficit last year. We already have that deficit. Well then if the members of the opposition want to be responsible they should suggest what further taxes should we put 11p this year.

Sbould we put up the personal income tax five percent so that we can put back these forty graduate scholarships1 Sho~ld we put up the S,S.A one percent and then we would not have a currect account deficit and we would not have to make these cuts or shoulf we put up the gasoline tax so many cents a gallon? I mean there is the answer. We cannot go on !laving current account deficit year by year. We will have one this year anyway ,unless we are able to save a bit more money during the year. So when the honourable gentleman says this is only $120,~00 or $130,000,that does not wash.

It is ~120,000 or $130,000 that we cannot afford to put back in the estimates 1if we are to make any attempt to break even on current account. As the honourable gentleman opposite knows, if we continue to have current account deficits year after year we will then be in a position where we are going to have great difficulty borrowing money, How then will we have our capital account progra1t111e~ Where will the $180 million come from that is going to be spent on 2518

June 19 .. 1972 Tape 806 (afternoon) PK - 5 MR, CROSBIE: capital account this year? The $180 millio n is or th~ $200 mill.ion is what we have to borrow. We will not be ahle to borrow that next year or the year after, if we continue to have Rreat current account deficits. So there is the pro~lem. No one wants 2519 ..... , ..

June 19, 1972, Tape 807, Page 1, -- apb to cut these graduate fell~wships. If the hon. gentlemen opposite can suggest, should we cut out the Twillingate Causeway, or should we cut out this or that, or water. and sewerage or the operation of a hospital, or what it is we should cu~to put this back, I will be glad to hear their suggestions. f _N RON, MEMBER: ~ - CROSBIE· (Inaudible) Never mind piping up with Spencer Pond or Spencer Lake, or Labrador Linerboard, $170 million gone on that, MR. NEARY: area. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, is the minister finished or what? $274,000 last year on certain housin g in a certain One on Circular Road. :ip__:___F_.N .R_O~:_ Mr. Chairman, I thought Wednesday was cranky day for the honourable minister, but obviously he is going to take over two or three days of the week. Mr. Chairman, the minister ••• (Inaudible) MR. CROSBIE: l!R. ROWE: I will, Mr. Chairman. The Minister of Finance and Economic Development seems to be labouring under a misapprehension or delusion or something. Does he forget, Sir, that the people of Newfoundland flung us out into opposition on March 24 and made him the government?

Well, he would like to think "him" but there are several other collear,ues around with him . Mr . Chairman, he and his colleagues are the government of this province and it is up to the Goverment of this province to use the money which is available to them in the best possible way , according to what they consider to be in the interest of the people of this province.

What we are saying here in the Opposition is that the cutting out of over $100,000 for graduate fellowships,which represents perhaps the depriving of at least several people from obtaining professional training this year, or perhaps any time in the future, is a wronF use of public funds. What the government should do,in accordance with their 2520

June 19, 1972, Tape 807, Page 2 -- apb mandate from the people, is to try to reorient policies, or try to redistribute among programmes the money which they do have at their disposal. The pie is limited, the pie is finite, but it is there and they can redistribute the money in the pie and try to come up with a good programme.

What we are sayinr, is that the cutting out of money for graduate fellowships or the cutting out of the money for any training programme of any kind, especially in the field of enpineerinp or health or trades, the various varieties,is an unprogressive, backward lookinp, retrograde step and the honourable ~inister of Finance. should, with his colleagues,try to avoid taking these backward steps and should trv to find the money elsewhere. It is not my .1ob as a member of the Oppositf.on to tell him where he is going to find the money. He pot his answer on !4 arch 24th.

They formed the government of this province -nd it is up to them to find the money. If that means that they have to raise the taxes, so be it. Let them take the political and social responsibility, the economic responsibility for raising taxes. The people have given them the right to bring such a programme into this House of Assembly for approval. If,on the other hand, they do not have the moral courage, they do not have the guts to hring in such a programme of taxation, that is their responsibility and their right again. It is not up to us, Mr.

Chairman, to tell the povernment how it should raise its money or where it should get the money. What we are saying here is that a specific programme, namely the training of certain graduate students,should not be cut. rhat to me, Sir, is not a negative statement, that to me, Sir, is a positive statement. Our !cl.ea, our policy on this side of the House is that the government should not cut graduate fellowships. It is the training of people that should not be cut, when the money is being allocated every year in the estimates. That is a positive statement.

We say, ''put back the $147,000 for graduate fellowships, or put back more money for example in vocational training or put back more money for university or elemnetary schools 2521

June 19, 1972, Tape M07, Page 3 -- apb or secondary schools.• · These are positive statements on our part. If the honourable Minister of Finance, who makes a speech and then leaves the House, obviously he is only interested in what he himself has to say, if the honourable Minister of 1-'inancf! wants some suggestions from the opposition who are not the government, then we over here will be glad to provide some suggestions for him. It is perhaps too late now, but more than $147,000 for graduate fellowships could have been found from the $5 million sellout to Javelin Paper Company or the Javelin Interests.

More that $147,000 could have been found from the $2.5 million free gift, scandalous free gift to the Lake Interests in Burgeo. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) }~~~_!_~WE: Well, it was about $1.6 million free gift. l-'_R_:_MQ,!lGAN_'. Nr. Chairman, Point of Order. ~-:- RO~:_ Mr. Chairman, the honourable member would not know a Point of Order if it hit him in the head. MR. MORGAN· ¥r. Chairman, on a Point of Order, I fail to see what the honourable member for White Bay South is presently talkinp. about has to do with subsection 604-05, MIN tuition and allowances. 1'1R. ROWE· May I speak to the Point of Order, Sir.

The point, for the honourable member's edification,is that we are talking about putting back $147,000 in the estimates for graduate fellowships. I am pointing out to the government,in response to a question by the honourable Minister of Finance, where that money can be found. Now, if the Chairman wants to rule on that Point of Order, of course, he can do so. MR. CHAIRMAN: The rule of relevancy is there within limits. Since the matter has been raised the honourable member can refer to items where the money could be found and put back into item 604-05.

However, obviously there will have to be limits placed on how wide -ranging this search for other money is going to be. If it were completely thrown open this would give the honourable member opportunity,presumably 2522

June 19, 1972, Tape 807, Page 4 -- apb to talk on any matter that he wanted to talk on. So, within limits the honourable member can continue. MR. ROWE: You are absolutely right, Mr. Chairman, I had no intention of debating any of these topics I am talking about. I am merely giving some examples in response to the Question of the Minister of Finance as to where this money could be found. The honourable member for Bonavista South would be well advised to leave Points of Order to his House Leader who seems to know something about the matter. J.ir.

Chairman, I have mentionecl . the $5 million to the linerboard - to the Javelin Interests in respect of the linerboard mill, I have mentioned a $1.5 million free pift to the Lake Interests in respect of the Burgeo plant. $147,000 could have been found there. The honourable member for Burgeo would be well advised to be very Quiet on the topic of the money to the Burgeo fish plant, Mr. Chairman.

The "'finister of Finance can find the money if he wants to in the elaborate communications system which is apparently being put in for the benefit of the government memhers, to pass out information,nicely prepared blurhs,to the press of the province,in an efficient manner. I am sure that is going to cost more than $147,000 of the province's money before it is finished.

I might also suggest to the honourable Minister of Finance that I am sure if he loo~s through the estimates for the Premier's office and Fxecutive Council and a variety of minister's offices in the province, where the office staff and flunkies and political hacks who have been hired on have been increased very greatly over the past few months, that he will find $147.000. The point I am making, Sir, is that if there is any money to be found for any subject, it should be found first and foremost to train the people of Newfoundland professionally or in trades or in skilled labour.

That is of primary importance in this province. For the honourable minister to get up and say, where could it be found, is nonsense. That kind of money should be found first, Sir. Then the question should be asked; where can money for other programmes be found? The 2523 ,-..,

June 19, 1972, Tape 807, Page 5 -- apb first priority, and the hon. Premier is a great man for talking about priorities, the first priority in this province shou l d be in respect of professionally training, skillfull training and training in the trades for the people of this province, so that we can have the high paying jobs, so tha t we can make the high i ncomes, 252 4

June 19, 1972 Tape no, 808 Page 1 MRW Mr. Rowe (W.N.) the high income which in turn will bring in increased tax revenue to this province in the years to come. As a result of the investment put into education, we can reap benefits in the years to come and increase our solid tax base, It is one thing to increase our tax base, Sir, by industrialization, by bringing in as much industry as we can and therefore getting some taxes back into the provincial coffers.

Another method would be to have as many high paid people as possible in this Province, getting good salaries, because they have good trades and good professions and good training so that their income tax and the amount of expendable revenue they have is greater so that that increases the taxes of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador That is the point I am making. I have given the hon.

Minister of Finance three or four or five places from which he can take $147,000 or from which he could have taken, if the die has not been cast, Even if these glaring examples of the Linerboard Mill, the Lake interest, the communication system in the Premier's Office and other things were not there, Sir, I would still say that the training of people is the first priority. His question should not be: Where can we find the money? His statement should be: We have found the money letting other programmes, other programmes which are lower on the list of priorities, find money for themselves. That is what the hon.

Minister of Finance should be asking himself. MR. ROWE (F.B.): I cannot really understand the reason for the criticisms from the other side of the House in the debate on this particular subhead. As members of the opposition,surely we have the responsibility of pointing out what we feel is a weakness in the estimates pertaining to the G Department of Education. We did point out what we considered to be a weakness with respect to the future training of graduate students in this province, The Minister of Education came back at first and simply accused 2525

June 19, 1972 Mr. Rowe (F.B.): Tape no. 808 Page 2 us of obstructing the House of Assembly, slowing down the House of Assembly, and he was casting reflections back on the past administration. That was his first reaction to us simply bringing this case to this committee, Sir. Then after a little more debate, the Minister of Education did indeed agree with the case that we were putting. There was a need for more money but they could not find it.

Then all of a sudden the Minister of Finance leaps to his feet, like he has done several times already during this committee session, as the hon, member for Green Bay had done in the past, and starts asking this opposition for suggestions on how to spend money in the Department of Education, apparently forgetting that he has a Minister of Education and apparently, Sir, forgetting that he has the powers of responsibility in the government of this province at the present time. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, seeing that hon. the Premier is in his seat in this honourable House this afternoon, I think the hon.

Premier owes it to the people of this province to stand in his place in this honourable House this afternoon and tell the people of Newfoundland how much it is going to cost to set up this propaganda machine to replace "The Newfoundland Bulletin" that we heard so much ramping and raving about? MR. CHAIRMAN: Order! The honourable member is now out of order. We are dealing with 604-05, Memorial University, tuition allowances.

MR, NEARY: The point I am making is that the hon, Minister of Finance stood in his place in this honourable House a few moments ago and asked for suggestions on how they could get the money to pay out for these graduate fellowships. The hon. Minister of Education has to assume a part of the responsibility because he is a member of the government, The Minister of Finance has to accept his share of the responsibility, but only the hon, the Premier can referee, Sir.

Mr, Chairman, the honourable unsavory minister,if he would just hold tight and sit in his seat for a few more moments until I am finished - he is getting a terrific roasting. 2526

June 19, 1972 Mr. Neary. Tape .no, 808 Page 3 He cannot take it, Sir. He cannot take it, Sir, my hon, colleague from White Bay South suggested that the money could be saved by not going ahead with the programme of putting teletype machines in all the news rooms across this province. My hon, colleague from White Bay South also suggested, Sir, that the expensive flunkies (I believe there are sixteen of them now, at the last count, that have been hired over the last few weeks) be removed from the taxpayers' back.

I would suggest, Sir, that the final payment to Spencer Lake be withheld, I would suggest also, Sir, that Mr. McLean and his associates, "The Bay Street Boys" be sent packing back to Toronto. I would suggest also, Sir, that the expensive entertainment that is going on in the hotels around St, John's for the last few weeks, Sir, be dropped, Then, Mr, Chairman, the honourable minister will have enough money to reinstate the mothers' allowance and the graduate fellow­ ships. MR.

CARTER: A serious student of history some generations ahead will look back on this period and will wonder seriously how we ever managed not to cut out the assistance to students altogether, bearing in mind the extremely difficult situation that the previous administration left us in, Since hearing all this debate, I have discovered one source of revenue that might alleviate this shortage and that is that it be wrung out of the obstructive hides of the individuals opposite, MR. EVANS: Mr.

Chairman, I had not intended to speak again on these education estimates but in view of what has_~appened here in the last few days, I think another minute or two would not hurt. _AN HON. MEMBER: Take all week. MR. ROBERTS: You have all summer, MR, EVANS: You can have the summer, I will take the fall to get home. 2527 ,--.,,

June 19, 19i'2 Tape no. 808 Page 4 AN HON. MEMBER: We will never get home, MR. EVANS: We have had so much criticism here that it is not constructive. We even had an amendment to a motion here from the honourable member on the other side that the minister's salary be cut down to $1.40. A member who would make such a suggestion, in using up the time of this honourable House, should be obligated to donate his own salary to the widows and orphans in Viet Nam or some such place or other and ~lso be prepared to pay a high rental on the seat he is occupying in the House of Assembly.

Then we had the big hassle over the mothers' allowance. I have been all through my district and the only concerned mothers I see are on the other side, As a matter of fact, I think they got fooled up in the way their mail is addressed. "M.H.A." they thought was another new way of spelling "ma." If there is one area in which the Minister of Education has not been up to par, I would say it was in not making up provision for adult education. He did not realize that there was need of so much. Of course, we will help him out on that.

If the honourable members think they are getting any mileage out of it, what they are trying to put before this House, in my opinion they are only getting yardage out of the hole they are excavating in order to bury themselves in political oblivion. On motion 604-05 carried, On motion total subhead 604, carried. On motion total subhead 611, carried. _11R. ROWE (F.B.): Mr. Chairman, 612-02-01, salaries to teachers.

Sir, I think probably that the most important aspect of education, whether it is in this province or any other province,is not necessarily the physical facilities that we have for the education of our youngsters nor is it the apparatus, materials, BA's and all this sort of a thing that there appears 2528

June 19. 1972 Mr, Rowe (F.B,), Tape no-. 808 .Page 5 to be a greater tendency tp spend money on in recent years, Sir, still the most important aspect of primary, elementary and secondary education is the relationship that exists between the students in the clasS:•room and the teacher. I would submit, Sir, that the teacher in spite of all the recent developments in the field of the media, the teacher is still the most important component of the whole educational process. Now, Sir~ we have a desperate situation when we see over­ crowded classrooms 2529 .....

June 19, 1972 Tape 809 in many of our schools. It is my understanding that approximately twenty-five per-cent of the classrooms that we have in our schools today have forty or more students in these classrooms. Twenty-five per-·cent of the total number of classrooms that we have in our schools have forty or more students to that one teacher. Sir, this is why the reduction in the student-teacher ratio is so tremendously important. That is only one reason when we have one-quarter of our classrooms that are desperately overcrowded.

I can tell you, Sir, and everybody knows this that no matter how good a teacher is or how good the students are or what kind of media you have in that school or what kind of a physical plant that you have for that school or what the training and educational qualifications of the teachers are this one to forty teacher-student ratio will destroy any possibility of ever getting proper education in that particular classroom. Sir, that is only one aspect of it. Sir, as we all know there have been great strides made in pedagogy, I guess you could call it, over the past twelve or so years.

We have had great developments in curriculum and instruction,largely carried out by the Americans, and I mentioned this a night or so ago. When sputnik went up in 1957, JM - 1 the Russians put up sputnik,the Americans got the fright of their life. They figured they were falling behind in the technology race. So all of a sudden they started to look at their educational system. ~w I am not suggesting the motive was a particularly good one.

The motive may not have been a particularly good one but what came out of it was some of the greatest advancements in instruction and curriculum development, beginning with the area of science. Because of the fact that sputnik went up,the Americans figured they were falling behind in the technological race so they had a good solid look at science education. primary, elementary, secondary, college and university. Now what happened as a result of this is that we had this emphasis on the educational process spreading into all other areas. 2530

June 19, 1972 Tape 809 .JM - 2 The current emphasis is now on the social studies 1 but emphasis was also placed in the field of mathematics,language,arts and other areas of education besides science. Now, Sir, one of the things that they found out from their studies is that it is absolutely necessary that you have a low teacher ratio in order to have instruction, according to the inquiry or the discovery, or whatever you want to call it, approach where students are given an opportunity to learn how to learn and to learn on their own through an active process of learning rather than a passive process of learning.

Sir, there is another extremely important thing that grew out of this development in curriculum and instruction in education and that is - MR. SENIOR: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. I understand we are discussing head 612(02)(01) - Salaries of teachers. I have not heard this mentioned Rince the member has started talking on this particular head. I am wondering if what he is saying is really relevant to the sub_iect. MR. ROWE(F.B.): Yes, Mr.

Chairman, I submit that I am approaching the point here where I am developing a case for the necessity for the reduction of the student-teacher ratio which certain pertains, to my understanding anyway, to this 612(02(01) where we are dealing with teachers" salaries. Because if in fact we are going to reauire an increase in the number of teachers in thiR province for the purpose of reduction in the student-teacher ratio,certainly we need an increase or we need to look at the grant to boards for the purposes of salaries to teachers and to superintendents. Now I would just like to add one other thing, Mr.

Chairman, before I sit down on the point of order. The other night I was criticized by two members of the other side of the House for not expounding on and developing education as it pertains to the schools, the primary, elementary and primary schools 1 so this time I am now doing it. 2531

.TnnP 19, 1972 Tap~ 809 JM - 3 ~!_HON~_MEMBER: We did not ask you to do it under that sub-head though. MR. ROWE(F.B.): What sub-head would you like for me to do it under? MR. CHAIRMAN: Order! The rule of relevancy is again raised here. The honourable member has stated that he is preparing, setting up the background to establish the need for smaller student-teacher ratio. However, this obviously has to be done within certain limits. Just put in that manner the honourable member could justify giving the House a course in educational philosophy for several months.

So I would ask the honourable member to keep in mind that the discussion has to be relevant. The honourable member obviously has a certain amount of leeway but the Chair will have to consider when he is going beyond that leeway. MR. ROWE(F.B.): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. You are perfectly correct. One could go on for some months in the fieldiof curriculum and instruction and educational philosophy. I am not an educational philosopher.

I think I know a little bit about one small aspect of education, science education,and I was 1ust relating to curriculum development as such 1which certainly is related to the money that one has to expend in the area of salaries to teachers 1 as far as student-teacher ratio is concerned.

Sir, the couple of points that I have made so far is that in order for the educational process to be carried on the wav that most psychologists and educators believe that it should be carried on,this necessitates a lowering of the student-teacher ratio or the whole process of education in the class~oom where it is most important will not be successful or at least not as successful as it could be with less students per teacher than we have at the present time.

Sir, the other thing that I was going to mention when the point of order was raised is this,that education is finally becoming what one could truly call a science 1 where programmes are developed, 2532

.June 19, 1972 Tape 809 curricular programmes are developed, instructional models are developed by people knowledgeable in the various disciplines. They are developed, they are experimented with for two and three and four years. At a cost of millions of dollars they are experimented with in the schools themselves.

This requires project teachers or pilot teachers or experimental teachers who go into these classrooms and conduct these experimental projects or pilot pro1ect for a year or two, ihen the administrators in the school and th teachers in the school sit back and they study what happened over that two year period.Then they modify the programme for the particular school, school system or province that they are planning to offer this prop,ramme in.

Sir, this requires a reduction in the stu<lent-teacher ratio, Sir, for these two reasons alone,to carry out the educational process as modern learning psychologists suggest and to carry out these experimental or pilot curriculum projects so that thev can be evaluated and modified for our schools, these two reasons alone put a great deal of pressure on the NTA or on the authorities,to reduce the ~tudent-teacher ratio so that these two things can be carried out adequately in the schools.

Sir, another point is that the honourable Minister of Finance, some time ago in this House,suggested that we have an oversupply of teachers, an oversupply of teachers in this province. Sir, I have not seen any documented evidence or studies that have been carried out that have proved that we have an oversupply of teachers. I know there is an individual professor at the university 1 in the faculty of education,in fact, who is somewhat concerned about the increase in the supply of teachers.

This concern is mainly the result of a great number of students who are rraduating from the university, JM - 4 coming back and saying, ''Look we cannot find jobs. We cannot find jobs 2533

.T1,np 19, 1972 Tape 009 in the schools." Now what is happening here is that a lot of our graduates are not finding jobs in the schools where they want to work. This is the basic problem. You have a chap from St . .John's or a chap from Grand Falls, Corner Brook, Labrador City, Baie Vert~ or somewhere who has his home there 2534 JM - 5

June 19, 1972, Tape 810 Page 1. It \S his home there, He has grown up in that particular community and he wants to go back to a particular school f.n order to teach there. Naturallv enough, But, Sir, quite often we find in our larger central and regional high schools that they do have an adequate sunnlv of teachers.

Well qualified teachers, experienced teachers and consequently some of our younger graduates just cannot get into the particular school where thev would like to teach, There is the reason I would suggest that many people are saying that we have an over supoly of teachers, Flowever, I will concede this,Sir, that we certainly have to look at the number of teachers who we are turning out of this university.

It is conceivable that we could end up in the near future with an over supply, it is conceivable, But, Sir, what we have in this province in the field of education in our schools is a situation where we have a tremendous number of teachers who are not narticularlv qualified to teach the subjects that they are now teaching such as science, language, arts, some asnects of special education, foreign language and this type of thing. this is where we have to get more teachers trained along these lines out into the school.

Another point, Sir, is this, is that in 1970-1971 I understand that there was an unu~ually high registration of students in our schools, just prior to that the year before I think the same thing. When we started to bring in these temporary classrooms, there was an unusually high registration of students in the school and consequently, of course, we had a corresponding increase in the number of teachers that were hired by the various school boards. Now, we have a situation apparently where the school registration or school enrollment, primary, elementary or secondary level is starting to level off.

It is my understanding 1from talking to some people in authority, that there are as manv as three hundred teachers who are 2535 , _

June 19, 1972. Tape 810 Page 2. presently employed by school boards this year who are going to be laid off. Now, I do not know 1Sir, if the Minister of Education have heard anv thing about this. But it is my understanding, I have been talking to some people on this matter when they brougtt it to my attention. Because of the levelling off of enrollment of students anticipated for next year in the schools 1 there are as many as 300 teachers across this province of ours who are concerned about whether they are going to be employed by their particular school boards in the - can I rephrase tha:i:, Mr. Chairman?

I did not want to name the teachers, this is why I wanted - there are school boards, Sir, who are concerned about having to lay off teachers or subsidize their salaries next year, in the coming yea~ because of the present formula that we have regarding the student teacher ratio. Now, I am only repeatlng what I am hearing from people in so-called authority. I simply ask the Minister of Education if he has heard anvthing along these lines or whether he can check this sort of thing out because I think, Sir, it is an extremely serious situation. I found it kind of difficult to believe myself.

I was initially extremely concerned over the fact that we just did not have a reduction in the student teacher ratio for the purpose of experimenting with curriculum in order to facilitate proper instructions in the classroom, I was extremely concerned about that. But to my amazement in recent days I have heard that approximately 300 teachers are or may be laid off or school boards may have to subsidize their salaries next year. This is right across the province,because of the present formula being used by the administration.

Sir, I already mentioned that twenty five per cent of the classrooms in our province have one teacher to forty students or more. It is a ridiculous situation in this day and age. The Minister can blame the 2536

June 19, 1972. Tape 810 Page 3. or.evious administration for it if he wishes. But, Sir, parent and teachers associations, school hoards, and the professional group, the N,T,A. the Newfoundland Teache~s Assoc1ation,are extremely upset, extremely concerned and have in fact pleaded with the government to have a second look at this whole business of student teacher ratio. Sir, for the normal class, the average class, we understand from the educational experts that one teacher for twentv-five or thirtv students is a desirable ratio. One to twenty-five to thirtv students. This is the n,·,rma l class.

Sir, in the case nf special education,slow learners and this ty:ie of thing, the experts say that it is, I understand that in the area of soecial education, slow learners, opportunitv classes th·lr, type of thing that the desirable ratio is twelve to twentv students ner teacher.

So, Sl.r , just in s.ummary, :l.n terms of the existing situation, twenty­ five ner cent of our classes with fortv or more students per ci;,.ssrooms, with the Americans and the M~inland of Canada, some of the prov:lnces of Canada, and the British having spent millions and millions of dn 11 .Rrs on curr:I cul um development 1 the curricula are right there for us to experiment with and use.

Because of the accessibility and the availnh:llitv of these curricula and the desirability of reducing student teacher ratio to bring them in, I would suggest that that is a further argument for reducing the student teacher ratio. S:l.r, I would ask the honourable M:l.nister of Education if in fact h,:, would be kind enough Sir, to take a second look,as the N.T.A has reQuested 1 at this whole business of the student teacher ratio. Sir, just one other very brief point.

I do not know, I guess this is probably the subheading under which the Minister nrobahly could expound on his thoughts with respect to collect:lvs: bargaining for teachers. In my initial comments on the subheading of salaries, 2537

June 19 , 19 72 • Tape 810 Page 4. 601-01 Tasked that particular question at the beginning because I considered it to be a general tyne of question and the Minister of Education said that he would relate to any question that has heen asked when "'e deal with that particular item under the subhead to which it pertains.

So, I hope the honourable minister could give us some indication of the possibility (1) of doing something about the student teacher ratio. (2) givi.ng us some idea of the direction of his department and his colleagues with respect to bringing in legislation regarding collective bargaining for teachers during this present year. HR.CARTER: Mr. Chairman, I have a long list of things to answer. First of all, I will deal with what I think is the most urgent one. First it is scandalous rumourmongering to suggest that any teachers are being laid off. That is not true. At least it has not come to our attention.

I assume that that kind of knowledre would certainly come to our attention very earlv on - MR. ROWE: You are not suggesting that we are resuonsible for initiating these rumours. MR.CARTER: No, no, whoever is responsible for initiating those rumours is a rumourmonger and nothing else. On the collective bargaining for teachers at the moment there is a committee composed of the N.T.A and the Treasury Hoard,meeting and sitting and discussing the problems of collective bargaining for teachers. That committee is still sitting and I have not yet received a report from it.

When I do and when the report can be made public,! will certainly make it public, But the honourable member may rest assured that that situation is being carefully considered by such a committee and presumably if the N.T.A feel they wish to comment on that particular committee that is entirely up to themselves. I certainly do not feel free to comment at the moment. The committee meets, I have no i~ea what they have 2538

June 19, 1972. Tape 810 Page 5. decided yet. When thev do decide thev will issue a report. They will give it to undoubtedly. But there is such a committee in existence. On the T"Upil teacher rat i o, I ·supnose this is the a!)pronriate heading to bring it up. Certainlv it is the heading that deals with teachers. There are 6,400 teachers, there are approximately · 2539

June 19, 1972 Tape No. SU 63,000 students, that is an average of 25.5, one teacher for every 25.5 pupils. Now that is not to say that a teacher NC can go into a classroom confidently expecting a classroom any smailer than thirty to forty students. Some of those teachers are specialists, some of them are supervisors, some of them are principals. The classes are still too large. I will grant the hon. memhP~ his point and it is a very sore point, it is a very difficult problem. The need for lower pupil-teacher ratio is 1 recognized by every responsible official connected with education.

There is no argument there whatsoever. Nor is there any argument that there is a great deal more that needs to be done in education, But what you have to remember is that you do what you can with the resources that you have. I would suggest that these particular estimates this year are an extremely generous attempt to handle the problems that we are facing.

On the over supply of teachers, certainly if the pupil­ teacher ratio could be lowered to an acceptable level, I have no doubt that there could conceivably be a shortage of teachers, But given the ratio that we have at the moment, and the resources that we have at the moment, we are not able to increase the supply of teachers dramatically except on the present formula which is a fairly complex one, which result roughly in one to every 25.5 students, although I grant you that a lot of those teachers are not in the classroom nor able to be in the classroom because of other duties, Still I do agree that the school enrollment is levelling off and that we may well see the day, before too long, when we are able to bring in an acceptable pupil-teacher ratio.

The problem of education though is rather like the problem of employment. There is no shortage of work and there really is no shortage of teachers but there is a shortage of employers. There is a 2540

June 19, 1972 Tape No. 811 NC - 2 shortage of money and a serious shortage of money. But nevertheless these estimates, as I said before, are larger than any previous ones and I think are a very generous attempt to deal with the present problems. MR. ROWE (F,B.): Mr. Chairman, I do not want to become emotional about this whole thing and I will try not to be but it is very, very difficult, and I am not criticizing anybody on the other side, Sir, or anybody on this side but it is extremely difficult to try and relate to people who have not had experiences in the actual classroom themselves.

I do not mean this to be a criticism of the hon. minister, who may have been a teacher in the classroom at one time. I have no idea, Sir. But it is very difficult to try to relate the feelings and the experiences of a teacher in a classroom,who has grand ideas and knows what to do that is consistent with modern educational technology, psychology, instruction in mythology and everything else. It is extremely difficult to relate to people concerned with matters of responsibility for the whole province.

It is almost impossible to relate the difficulty and the frustration and the confusion that a teacher has in the classroom with students crawling all over the place, not being able to put into practice some of the modern things that he or she learned a year or two before, Within two years, Sir, we got that teacher so frustrated that we got a young bright perons chan~ed into the most cynical individual that you could ever imagine. This happens. It has happened to so many people it is not even funny.

After two years of teaching in a school and not being able to do the things that•he or she wishes to do,in line with what they learned in terms of modern psychology, learning instruction, what have you, that person gives up, ends up as far away from the field of education as you can possibly think of and what do we end up with, Sir. In all too many cases we end up with the people in the schools who have been doing the same thing for 2541 , .. , #.

June 19, 1972 Tape No. 811 NC - 3 five, ten, fifteen, twenty, twenty-five years. These are the people wh011we end up with when we do not allow a climate to exist in a classroom where you can have a teacher doing what he or she wishes to do which is in line with modern learned psychology. This happens, Sir. Money should not really matter here, It has to be made available in order to have the proper process of education occuring in our classrooms, Sir, instruction in a classroom is not a dramatic thing.

We can make all kinds of noise about the university, and everybody covers it and everybody talks about it, about the university. But talk about instruction in the classroom,Sir, and this is a criticism of members on the other side of the House. As soon as I talk about the classroom or instruction in the classroom, I get the sneaking suspicion that people are bored over there, because those yawns and these little conversations that take place,as soon as I start talking about education in the classroom, is just not merely a coincidence, surely.

Sir, I suggest that the Minister of Education squeeze it, drain it, I do not know how he is going to get it, but get it. AN HON. MEMBER: Milk it. MR. ROWE: Milk it. Take it out of Spencer Lake, get this money and put it in education where it properly deserves,into the classroom, because the university is not the most important conponent of education in this province. It is not the ~isheries College. It is not the Department of Education and it is not the vocational schools as institutions but it surely is the relationship that exists between the teacher and the students in this province.

We got nice fancy buildings all over the place, but what is going on in those classrooms leaves a little bit to be desired as long as we have forty students to the class. I did a survey there, two years ago, all summer it took me to do it. I do not know whether the hon, minister has ever seen it, It has very narrow aspects - science education again, and there are classrooms, 2542

June 19, 1972 Tape No, 811 NC - 4 Sir, not too many of them but there are classrooms in this province where we got sixty students in a science class. Sixty-six was the highest one, Now there are only a few of these but there were too many fifties and there were too many forties and still we have this peculiar situation where we might have two or three students in a classrootr, So, Sir, it is not me screaming and yelling here, it is the NTA are extremely concerned about it and believe me the: NTA are the last people,with all due respect to them, who want to rock the boat when estimates are coming down.

The university is the last institution that wants to rock the boat when the estimates are coming down. When we consider what happened to the NTA and the government 1 I might add1 in the last couple of years,because of the mixing of politics and pedagogy, I think it must be an extremP.ly concerned group when tt.ey come out at this point in the game and get on their knees and beg the government to take a second look at the student-teacher ratio. I think it is a brave thing for them to do because they have already suffered not a little from the mixing of politics and education at one stage in the game.

So, Sir, I ask you , seriously, do not tell us about the mess in the past, do not tell us that there is no money available, money can be made available if it is important enough to the administration_ Unfortunately what goes on fn the classroom is not dramatic, it is not even a vote getter hut it is extremely important to the youth of this province and where they are going to end up in the future, Sir, MR, PECKFORD: I would just like to make a few remarks before we finish off this subhead, First of all I would like to say to the hon. Member for St.

Barbe North that I appreciate his comments on education and I have tried to remain in the House while he was speaking on it. That is number one, Number two, Mr. Chairman, on this business of curriculum development and so on, as the hon, Member for St, Barbe North pointed out 2543

June 19, 1972 Tape no. 812 Page 1 ,.. MRW I think the most important aspect of the whole educational process where the pupil-teacher ratio needs to be lowered, if you had to pick out one segment of it, it would be the primary and elementary sphere of it, I thought somebody was going to mention this . I think this is the critical aspect of the whole thing.

I do not think;it is• I will go on to explain why it is immediate in the high school because I think a lot of educators and educational psychologists have come to realize, in the area of methods these days, that there are quite a few areas within the subje~t where large group-instruction is perhaps even more appropriate than small-group instruction, There are in quite a few of the subjects offere~ in high school today, you cant from Grade IX to Grade X anyway to Grade XI or Grade XII, you can have large-group instruction, where the pupil/teacher rati , does not present a very big problem, Where the problem surely lies, at its most critical point, is within the primary and elementary sphere.

This is what we usually find.Sy the way, Mr. Chairman, the forty, fifty, sixty and sixty-six pupils in a classroom# it is not in the Grade IX, X and XI. Until recent years, you would get it. There was a time only five or six years ago that when you started off in school with somebody in Grade IV, where you had forty-five or fifty in a classroom, if you followed your old group of people up through school, your students, you ended up in Grade X yourself with perhaps five, ten or fifteen of those left, out of the forty. I know from myself.

Out of the eighteen or so who were in Grade IV with me, I think two of us ended up in Grade X, as a matter of fact, You still have a little bit of this. You still have the drop-out thing, either good or bad,happening so that you do not get the same significant critical pupil/teacher ratio in the high schools as you do in primary and elementary education. I think that is one aspect of it. I wanted to mention also that there is, still - I agree with just about everything the hon. member for St. Barbe North had to say in his remarks recently. Most of it was very constructive and well-worth 2544

June 19, 1972 Tape no. 812 Page 2 saying. That is the only reason why I am up now to perhaps reiterate some of the points that he made, At the same time within the high school area, perhaps the honourable member would agree with me that perhaps it is due to, what he said about the teachers becoming frustrated because of their idealism when they come out of university, but there are far too many after two or three years get in sort of a rut, I still maintain that there is still a lot that can be done on the local school classroom level that is not being done now.

Perhaps it should be initiated to a great extent by these supervisors of instruction for the various boards. 1 am a little weary myself about some of the supervisors, their functions and how well they are performing. I am a little weary from my own narrow experience, I do not think enough is being initiated in that way by these people. 1 might be all wet about the ears but that is how it appears to me, 1 have already mentioned,Mr. Chairman,earlier, I think, in this session,about the collective bargaining for teachers.

I just reiterate again that I am totally in favour of it and hopefully they will get what they deserve when that report is brought down that the minister mentioned. Concerning the teacher layoff thing that the hon. member for St, Barbe North mentioned, I too did hear that but I heard it in a different way. Apparently in a number of boards throughout the island, there was some indication that in some of the larger centres there was going to be this levelling off of school population, giving rise to a surplus of one, two or three teachers in the large central or regional high school.

The comment was made a number of times in the last eight or ten months that some of these teachers were going to have to be transferred within the same district to a smaller school, I think this is how I heard it, Anyway, Mr. Chairman, I would just like to reiterate that I appreciate the comments of the hon. member for St, Barbe North on the other side and I agree almost wholeheartedly with all he had to say. It is too bad we cannot have the pupil/teacher ratio down, I would 2545 ....

June 19, 1972 Mr, Peckford Tape no. 812 Page 3 just like to emphasize that it is most important in the primary and elementary sphere of the educational process and that when action is taken, it should be taken in this sphere first before going on to the higher levels of education. There are certain elements of high school programmes that lend themselves even to large-group instruction rather than small, I support the collective bargaining and I said a few words about the teacher layoff that I heard about. _MR. ROWE (W.N.): Mr.

Chairman, I was out of the House when the matter of collective bargaining was brought up. I have one or two questions which I would like to ask the minister. Is it envisaged that the superintendents of boards form part of the people who would be in a bargaining unit or would they be considered as management or staff? What is the situation there? Perhaps the minister could give us some ideas on that; and secondly, can he tell us what is the current salary of superintendents of boards? Has it been increased from last year?

That is the question number one, respecting the salary,and could the minister tell us if he has the knowledge of how many boards there are who have augmented or supplemented the superintendents' salary? I believe it was $12,000 last year or the year before. How much have they augmented it in his particular case? He might not have the information there but I would appreciate receiving that information if the minister could get it. MR, CARTER: My deputy tells me that the amount or the salary of superintendents attached to boards is approximately $13,500 at the moment. How many boards supplement the income?

I do not know. If that information can be found, if the honourable gentleman wishes to have it, he will certainly have it, On the collective bargaining, there is a committee of the N.T.A. and of Treasury Board who are sitting down together to discuss this. More than that I cannot say. Their discussions have started. When they 2546

June 19, 1972 Tape no. 812 Page 4 Mr, Carter do reach some conclusion they will report it to me, If I am able to1 I will be more than happy to make a copy of their deliberations available or their conclusions available to this House. There are a couple of short notes and then I think this subhead will have been debated as far as it can be, There is no doubt about it that we would all wish for more teachers and a lower pupil/teacher ratio, that is less pupils per teacher. I have to ask myself and I have to ask all members of this House what did our predecessors do in this regard? The answer is remarkably little.

The pupil/teacher ratio is not that improved. It may well be argued that our predecessors brought education to the present level under some other subheads. I would like to make a comment on that, However be that as it may,we have the present $52 million for the present teachers, compared with $46,428,100 last year. Most of that increase is tied up with increments to teachers as opposed to more teachers, I would recommend it to you for approval, MR. EARLE: Mr. Chairman, there are very remarks on this particular vote.

I think it is well to draw to the attention of the House (I have listened attentively to all the arguments this afternoon) the fact that this particular vote in itself has gone cp practically $6 million from last year, It will probably go up $8 million next year and probably $10 million the following year or progressively whatever the proportion may be. It will certainly go up by very considerable leaps and bounds. Now in all that the hon, member for St.

Barbe North has said,~hich is most desirable,is something that we agree with entirely, the pupil/teacher ratio and nobody will argue against that, the advantages of it, the advisability of it and all this sort of thing, there has to be the question of priorities brought into all this, He, himself, mentioned the word priorities. Just look at this vote alone,which is $52 million today, That in itself is practically five times the amount - that one vote in education is practically five times what we were spending on the whole 2547 .... , ..

J une 19, 1972 Tape no. 812 PAGE 5. Mr.. Earle. Department of Mines, Agricultu -re and Resources. It is nine times what we are spending on Fisheries in this country, One vote alone for teachers' salaries is p-ractically nine times what we a.re spending on Fisheries, What does the money come from to pay teachers' salarie .s? It comes from industey, from increasing people's wages in income so that they -can be taxed, •How are we going to get these taxes? How are we going to get the wage•? How are we going to get the money to pay these salaries? We can only get it from industry and development in this 2548

June 19, 1972 Tape 813 (afternoon) PK - l MR.

EARLE: province and if we are goinp to go 11p From $52 million to $62 million, to S70 million, to MO mill:l.on and $90 million and so on there is only one sc,urce that it can come from that is our revenue and taxes and what we can bring in. !"o do not let us talk this nonsense about what is desirable and what we should like to do, everybody recop,nizes that, everybody sees the desirability of ;t. nut what the honour11hle minister is pointing out and what all of us on this side are pointing out 1 that in the light of the situati.ons which we find ourselves,with the stringency of m,,ney in practic11lly every vote, only so much money can only go so far.

Certainly there are other items throur.hout this whole budget which in the return that they will give to our peonle are equally as important as this vote. Now I know that educators will disagreP, probably the honourahle gentleman 1-1ho just spoke will d:lsarree.

But we simply cannot go on piling upon, pilinp unon, piling upon, pilinp. upon m:1.llions upon millions. upon millions, upon millions unless at the same time we create something in our other natural resource!: other than the people the boys and p:irls, if we draP from our other natural resources the revenue to pay for this, }!ow it is true that our young people are our preatest assets. Nobody is disputinp it. But this one item alone in their training is $52 million, which is nine times as much as we are spendinF' on Fisheries and five times as much as we are spendinp: on Mines, Ap,riculture and Resources.

I think there has to be some realization of t~e :l.mportance - $128 million in th:1.s whole budget. AN HON • t!EHBER · Inaudible. --- ----- MR. EA~LF'--: But all of this must take its proper place and T think that the headache this government faces and all other governments have faced is just how much •pe can spend and how far we can go and if we are getting the best value for our money? Perhaps in the students we may he educatinp.: them to a point, I hesitate to say this, 2549

June 19, 1972 Tape 813 (afternoon) PK .- 2 ~ EARLE: but that their priorities are getting out of balance, that education is getting out of balance, that the demands are far beyond anything that this province can cope with. HR. ROWE,~ Mr. Chairman, I do not know what the honourable member for Fortune Bay is getting at exactly, but I got the impression that the best thing we could do is just sit down and keep quite about this. Sir. we do not intend to. We feel that an investment in education, as he suggested, is an extremely important investment.

To talk about whether educational priorities are getting out of place in this province is absolutely ridiculous, If we were in British Columbia or in Ontario,! suggest that the minister could vPry well ask this type of a question. But in a province, ~ir, that still does not have enough qualified teachers, still has a student-teacher ratio that is too great, still reauires bigr,er and better schools, I would suggest, Sir, that this argument does not hold water whatsoever.

Sir I am getting just a little bit sick of hearing the Minister of F.ducation gettinr up and in answer to every single suggestion, proposal or question that we ask him,to start making suggestions that we had enough of this debate now, it is all over with. The honourable minister speaks and his first statement is, this should end the debate. Sir, the second thing that always comes out is this business of reflections on the past.

Sir, if they want to start talking about this increase of $52 million over $46 million last year, I would suggest that the government had no control whatsoever or anything to do with this increase. MR. CARTER: Inaudible. MR. ROWE,~ I did not suggest that you did, I am just making a statement. I did not say anybody said it, I am just making a statement. AN HON. MF.MBER: Inaudible. 2550

•• June 19, 1972 Tape 813 (afternoon) PK - 3 MR. CHAIRMAN: Order! Order! !~•- MARS!lf'!.LL • Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. The honourable memher has placed his question to the Chairman arid he is,in the heat of the debate, getting 1>n and addressing directly to the honoun1hle the '•linister of Fclucation which is obviously out of order. For that, '-Ir. Chairman, I will apolo~ize anc:l I ;.,ouln like tn reTT1i.nd the honourable 'linister of F.ducation, every memher of this House of Assemhly also has the right to be heard in silence, Sir, so r would like for vou to rule on that? ~m.

CRA.IRMAN: A~a:ln the honourable member is correct, however t 11e - --- --- - honourable member is raising this it appears after the fact and ~ot at the ti.me the interruption was made, whicl is what the honourahle member should have done. nut the honourahle member. of course, is correct,he is entitlted to be heard in silence. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, what I am simply suggesting is this - is tbat with a policy, with direction,the increase in the vote for teachers salarv could have been a result of say some policy with respect to the reduction of the student-teacher ratio.

But, Sir, ~-•i th the increasing qualifications of nur teachers and w:lth the incrciised nu"'"er nf our teachers and Pith the increased salaries of nur teachers, this increase was all ahout over last year. So j t is no neI, rild lnsophy or pol:1.cy that this present administpation has come up with that accounts for this particular increase. The reason, ~ir . 1 say that 1 :ls simply because the honourable the }'inister of F.ducat ·:on says: " Sure! Look, from $46 million to $52 mil lion." ~ir. I submit that this had nothinp: to do with educational nolicv or with direction of this present administration. }'R.

CARTF.R : ----- -- My rnentioninp; that increased f:f.p;ure is merely pointin" out that more of our reirnurces are p;oing into thi.s particul-'lr s11hhead and I said this reflected primarly increases to teachers hoth vearlv 25r,1 .... ,

.June 19, 1972 Tane 813 (afternoon) PK - 4 MR . CARTER· increments as well as an overall increaser that they were granted sometime a~o and that it did not necessarily imply that there were that many more teachers being employed. I think though, Mr. Chairman, with all respect to honourable members opposite, I think practically every point about this particular subhead has indeed been mentioned. not once but several times,with your indulgence 1 and I would therefore submit, Mr. Chairman, that we pass on to another subhead. On motion 612-02-01 carried. MR._ ROWE, F. B. Mr.

Chairman , there has been an ine rease of $1, 2 7 5 , ()OO in the vote granted to the school boards as operational grants. Sir, J have - and prohahly the Minister of Education heard this as well, many of our school boards in this province over the past year had an extremely severe winter with respect to e:,q,enditures. We have had a situation where there were a great number of problems with respect to the water and sewerage lines going to many of our central schools.

In fact quite a few of them have been frozen up and in fact I understand that i.n my own district the water and sewerage freeze.ups are expected to last until July 1 as far as the communities are concerned, I am not quite sure about the schools themselves. nut, Sir., what I am trying to say of course is that the school boards had an unexpected expense this year because of the lack of snow on the ground a11rl the deep frost. MR. CARTF.R: Tory weather.. MR. ROWE: F.B. ---- It must have been Tory weather. This was something, Sir, ~hat they did not expect and they had to find the money for this somewhere.

The other aspect of expenditures,over the past year, Sir, was the fact that we had of course extremely low temperatures and therefore a corresponding increase in the consumption of fuel. The monies that the various school hoards had to pay for the fuel during this past year was far in excess of the amount that they had ever expected to pay. 2552

June 19 1972 Tape 813 (afternoon) PY - 5 ~ ROWE, F.B. ~:Ir, what we have here now is the school hoards of cour!'e gain~ into the next year hasically short of cash even 2553 {,

.June 19, 1972 Tape 814 with this increase in the operational grants that we see here. As well, Sir, practically every school board that I have been speaking with or members of school boards that I have been speaking with have suggested that they were just barely getting along on the grants that they had during the previous year,and this goes back to pre-Tory days I might add.

Sir, therefore,when we take into consideration the fact that they really felt they could not meet their e7penses during the past years and we had these two additional expenses with respect to freeze-ups and the consumption of fuel and when we have of course increased numbers of schools to be maintained, all I am suggesting, Sir, is that this grant,according to what I have heard from members of school boards,will not put them through the present year, I was wondering if the minister could reflect on that for iust a few moments and give us some idea of whether he has had representation from school boards on the operating grants and the necessity for a reasonably dramatic increase in that prant.

JM - 1 Sir, while we are on this topic,if it is in order, this sub-head, May,I relate to this whole business of school taxation. I would assume that under operating grants to school - MR. CARTER: I would think that it is probably out of order in this particular sub--head. I think that there are probably sub-heads farther on where this could equally well apply, I look at 612(08) which is erection and equipment of schools (Capital). I would respectfully submit that that particular point could be brought up under that sub-head. If the honourable gentleman wishes to make a note of that. MR.

ROWE(F.B.): I cannot see it making any great difference, Mr, Chairman. MR, CARTER: If we are trying to be a relevant as possible it strikes me that there would be great irrelevancy by discussing that particular 2554

June 19, 1972 Tape 814 .N - 2 topic under that particular sub-head. MR. ROWE(F.B.}: I will discuss that point, Mr. Chairman, under 612(08} although I cannot really see any great difference in it. On motion, 612(02)(02), (03), carried. ~'.. ROWE(F.B.): 612(02) (04): Mr. Chairman, just an inquiry really as I do not understand what this grant is for, if the minister could 1ust inform -- MR. CARTER: That is used to pay the salaries of teachers in qt, Brides College, Littledale. On motion, 612(02)(04), carried. MR._ ROWE(F.B.): 612(02)(05): Mr.

Chairman, I would like to know if there is a reason for this dramatic increase in the expenditure under bilingual education. MR. CARTER: This particular head, Mr. Chairman,_ bilinp,ual education,is entirely a grant from the Federal Government to promote the teaching of French in Newfoundland schools. I may say at this point that in conversation with officials of Ottawa they are extremely happy about our attitude toward French. Some nf this monev is used to partially pay the expenses of students who go down to St. Pierre for a few days during the year and also for some who 11;0 during holidays.

It is a very worthwhile effort and ususallv it is done on a fifty-fifty basis. The Department of Education pays half the expenses and the school raises the other half or that it to say the pupils do. It is a programme that we can see pleases the Federal Government very much and it looks as though this will be increased. As I say, they are extremely happy about our attitude towards bilingualism and the instruction of French in schools and the nossibility of increasing that instruction. MR. ROWE(F.B.): Mr. Chairman, when was this prograrnl'le initiated? Was· this going on - MR. CARTER: Yes. 2555 ...... ., .

June 19, 1972 Taµe 814 On motion, 612(02)(05), carried. MR. ROWE(F.B.): 612(02)(06): Mr. Chairman, the school bus transportation. Sir, we had some debate over this particular sub-head or this topic at least earlier in the previous remarks regarding the total grant for education.

I would like to say, Sir, how pleased we are over on this side of the honourable House to have been of some use in making positive suggestions as to what could be done with the initial formula that was announced by the honourable Minister of Education some months ago, Sir, we thought that that was a complete diaster at the time, a complete catastrophe and we feel the same way about that formula at the present time because there are many other factors that certainly have to be considered when we talk about transportation of school children,other than the number of school children involved.

Now, Sir, I do not know what the honourable minister is using for the purpose of making grants to the individual school boards. I do not know whether in fact there has been a formula derived for this purpose. If we have a formula I would certainly appreciate hearinp. exactly what it is so we can have a very close look at it and see whether all factors have been put into that formula that need to be put in,when calculatinp. for individual school boards what kind of a grant they should get for the puroose of school bus transportation.

So, Sir, first I would ask him if in fact there has been a formula designed and by whom and what the nature of the formula is? JM - 3 The second point that I would like to raise is that the grant 612(02)(06) adds up to a total of $5,910,000. That is the amount voted for the transportation of school children in these estimates. Sir, in answer to an oral question in the House the minister kindly presented a document which breaks down last year's expenditures according to school board for school bus transportation and also there is a column there for each school board giving an estimate of expenditures for 2556

June 19, 1972 Tape R14 .Hi .. 4 April 1972 to March 1973. Sir, when I add that up it totals ~6.051,705 but there is a factor built in there hecause it is plus 0r mjnus fjve per-cent which means that the - I do not know what the answer is. Is there one figure for the House of Assembly of ~~.90f'!, OOO and another fir;ure that the school boards are r.etting that ran~es from SS,65(1,00 () up to $6,351,000? So what I am asking the minister basic-ally to do, !-fr. Chainnan, is to clarify the meaninp of this tahle doc-111:1ent as far as what it means to the school boarns.

Will they ~et this amount or will they get five per-cent more, five per-cent less or wil] it vacillate from one school hoard to the other and how does it relate to the estimates for the Department of F.ducation and the first point. that I ask about, the formula? ~ -_f_AR'QIR:_ Mr. Chairman, here is where l have to be lonP-winnec!. I am very, verv pleased to have this opportunity to debate and discuss the school bus situation under the aporopriate headinp.. The answer to the honourable gentleman 1 s last question first.

He is concerned aho11t the disparity in the fi1rnres that are on that statement an<l that are in the estimates. Well for his e<lification there are mAnV different kinds of years or "yaars"as the Leader of the noposition prefers to pronounce it. There is the school year. There is the calen<lar year. There is the fiscal year anc:l as many kinds of vears as you wish to mention. The question that was ask by the honourable gentleman aoplied to the calendar year, if Jam not mistaken. But it is because of the difference in the years that the nifference in the figures arise.

This will become more clear as my explanation continues. First of all we have to ask ourselves what was the situation as of January 18, 1972. The situation was that there were school busses lain on for those children who lived more than a mile from the schools which they were attending. There was some extra provision for children in Labrador and there was some extra provision for 2557

June 19, 1972 Tape No. 815 NC - 1 crippled children, handicapped. But basically and for the sake of this discussion we can say that most of the money,that ninety-nine per cent of it was for children who lived more than one mile from the school. The former administration had agreed to pay one hundred per cent of the cost of transporting children who lived more than one mile from school. The contracts were made by the school board and the bus owners and the government then paid the entire cost of the contract. I will call it triangular bargaining. I do not think that is the correct name for it.

In fact I do not think there is a correct name for it because the like of it was never heard before even in a minstral tale. It is the most unheard of thing I have ever heard of. Two people making a bargain and a third party paying for it. It is not face to face negotiation. It is back to back negotiation if you like. I cannot find the term that .describes it and it lead to the following absurdities. It lead to the fact that officials were forced to eo out with a measuring tape and measure the exact distance between the school gate and the gate of the other pupil's home.

You had the situation of children leaving school after school, crowding on board the bus, the driver obviously could not know who lived one mile away from school and who did not, and some of the children who needed the drive and who had the right to the transportation were left behind. The provision of school buses of course was never in the equation of school boards when they were detennintng where they would build schools, what kind of service they would give, You have the absurdity of incredibly long bus routes, even for small children.

I can think of some instances of kindergarden children, children being on a bus,never experiencing school other than going on a bus. Empty buses passing each other and going in different directions,belonging to different boards 1 even though the boards had more or less terminal boundaries, and the cost 2558

June 19, 1972 Tape No. 815 NC - 2 beginning to approach the total cost of the maintenance grant.

The maintenance grant which we have just finished discussing, which is $11.5 million approximately,and the school bus transportation cost having arrived at $6 million and going up, heading in an upward direction, I am glad to see the Member for White Bay North and the Member for St, Barbe North sitting very closely together because in my view they should sit very closely in this House, The two boards that are in each of their districts, the Vineland Board and the Straits of Belle Isle Board, in the case of the Vineland Board, the cost for transporting pupils is $164 per pupil.

The Straits of Belle Isle, the cost of transporting pupils is $69 per pupil, extraordinary disparity and yet the topography, the weather conditions, road conditions, approximate distances, are not all that different,! would submit. I think the two gentlemen should sit very, very close together. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR, CARTER: The difference is not that great, certainly not $100 a pupil, I would not think, So what was the answer? The answer was of course that in spite of the fiction that the previous government had perpetrated, that the bussing of school children was free, clearly it was not free. AN HON.

MEMBER: The honourable Premier scores again. MR. CARTER: Children who live more than one mile away from school presumably they got free transportation, morning and evening, There was nothing laid on for them at lunch time, and in fact it was believed to be, if it was not actually illegal for bus drivers to enter into separate and private agareements with mothers, children, to make extra runs. The whole thing was a mess and getting messier. .--.,

June 19, 1972. Tape 816 . Page 1 . so he said, "well the first thing that has to be done is to get rid of this triangular bargaining and back-to-face negotiations. In other words,the school boards should be free to bargain directly with the operators. We felt at the time that a lump sum payment per pupil was best. The honourable members,and I was rather interested to see that in the discussion of the maintenance grant, even though that is on a per pupil basis. It differs slightly from elementary to junior high and senior high.

It is the same for all hoards all over the island, yet honourable members made no objection to that even though the temperature& and the climates and velocity and direction of the wind and the winter conditions are quite different in St. Anthony than they are in St . John's. I am not disputing that there should be a difference in the maintenance grants having to agree or apply or to recognize these various factors.

The point is there is not 1 and I am very surprised that honourable gentlemen opposite passed over that fact, Yet, they made a great deal of the fact that the initial proposal made was for lump sum payment, per pupil payment to school boards. Well, the telegrams started to come in, the school boards and people associated with them started to say, "well we are going to lose a lot of money." When the total predicted amount of lost ~oney exceeded $6 million we felt it was time to ask them to recheck their figures. They did and they found it was not as bad as they had initially thought.

But still it was bad and they wished for us to bring in some differential rates to recognize the varying climatic conditions that exist in and, all over the province and in Labrador. So we brought in our mathematicians and they are looking into establishing some differentials . I might add t~ that in private conversation the honourable member for St. Barbe North and the Leader of the Opposition that they constructively criticized this proposal but felt that we were at least trying, we were on the right 2560

June 19 , 19 72. Tape 816. Page 2. track .• The bus situation had gotten out of hand. We were at least trying to rectify an unwholesome situation. Now, you mirht well ask yourself what costs difference there can be. The factor,, that we can think of, only factors that we can think of are the fact that driving has to