Manitoba Hansard — 14 November 1988 (Sitting 77B, 34th Legislature, 1st Session)

34-1-77b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 First Session - Thirty-Fourth Legisl,ture of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 37 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XXXVII No. 778 - 8 p.m., MONDAY, NOVEMBER 14, 1988. ISSN 0542-5492 Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer, Province of Manitoba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fourth Legislature Me mbers, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME CONSTITUENCY ALCOCK, Reg Os borne ANGUS, John St. Norbert ASHTON, Sieve Thompson BURRELL, Parker Swan River CARR, James Fort Rouge CARSTAIRS, Sharon River Heights CHARLES, Gwen Selkirk CHEEMA, Gulzar Kildonan CHORNOPYSKI, Wi lliam Burrows CONNERY, Edward Hon. Portage la Prairie COWAN, Jay Churchill CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste. Rose du Lac DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. Roblin-Russell DOER, Gary Concordia DOW NEY, James Hon. Arthur DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. Emerson DRIEDGER, Herold, L. Niakwa DUCHARME, Gerald, Hon.

Aiel EDWARDS, Paul St. James ENNS, Harry Lakeside ERNST, Jim, Hon. Charleswood EVANS, Laurie Fort Garry EVANS, Leonard Brandon East FILMON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo FINDLAY, Glen Hon. Virden GAUDRY, Neil St. Boniface GILLESHAMMER, Harold Minnedosa GRAY, Avis Ell ice HAMMOND, Gerrie Kirkfield Park HARAPIAK, Harry The Pas HARPER, Elijah Rupertsland HELWER, Edward R. Gimli HEMPHILL, Maureen Logan KOZAK, Richard, J. Transcona LAMOUREUX, Kevin, M. lnkster MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood MANDRAKE, Ed Assiniboia MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. Morris McCRAE, James Hon. Brandon West MINENKO, Mark Seven Oaks MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon.

River East NEUFELD, Harold, Hon. Rossmere OLESON, Charlotte Hon. Gladstone ORCHARD, Donald Hon. Pembina PANKRATZ, Helmut La Verendrye PATTERSON, Allan Radisson PENNER, Jack, Hon. Rhineland PLOHMAN, John Dauphin PRAZNIK, Darren Lac du Bonnet ROCAN, Denis, Hon. Turtle Mountain ROCH, Gilles Springfield ROSE, Bob St. Vital STORIE, Jerry Flin Flon TAYLOR, Harold Wolseley URUSKI, Bill lnterlake WASYLYCIA-LEIS, Judy St.

Johns YEO, lva Sturgeon Creek PARTY LIBERAL LIBERAL NDP PC LIBERAL LIBERAL LIBERAL LIBERAL LIBERAL PC NDP PC PC NDP PC PC LIBE RAL PC LIBERAL PC PC LIBERAL NDP PC PC LIBERAL PC LIBERAL PC NDP NDP PC NDP LIBE RAL LIBE RAL NDP LIBERAL PC PC LIBERAL PC PC PC PC PC LIBERAL PC NDP PC PC LIBERAL LIBERAL NDP LIBERAL NDP NDP LIBERAL

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Mo nday, November 14, 1988. The House met at 8 p.m. SUPPLY-GOVERNM ENT SERVICES Mr. Chairman, Harold Gilleshammer: I call this meeting to order to consider the Supply for the Department of Government Services. We are on item 3.(

e) Material Supply:

(1) Salaries $744,800- pass; (e)

(2) Other Exp endit ures $4,905,600- pass; (e)

(3) Less: Recoverable from Other Appropriations $5,090,200- pass; 3.(

f) Telecommunications:

(1) Salaries $570,400- pass. (f)

(2) Other Expenditur es $2,400,900-the Member for Dauphin. Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Could the Minister indicate the reasons for the rather significant increase there on the Other Expenditur es from $1,976,700 to $2,400,900.00? Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Government Services): Part of that is the MTS rate increases, the Manitoba sales tax increase, MTS Centrex location charge and new federal sales taxes. Mr. Plohman: What is the most significant factor there? Is it additional usage, as well, volume increases in telephone use? Mr.

Albert Driedger: I am told that it is basically the MTS rate increases, primarily. Mr. Plohman: First of all, since I have the first opportunity, I would like to indicate to the Minister that we may be going past nine o'clock and I thought that he could maybe indicate to his Highways staff that it would not be necessary for them to stay around, because if we get past 9:30, I do not think it makes much sense to start at that time. We might be closer to ten o'clock. We want to definitely finish but we do not see us finishing at nine, so I just wanted to indicate. The Minister can make his own decision. Mr.

Albert Driedger: I appreciate that comment. The Highways staff will be checking after a while and I will indicate that to them. *

(2005) Mr. Plohman: I wanted to ask just a couple of questions on this area dealing with telephone use. One of the areas that we had contempla ted seeing rather significant changes was in the area of travel. There is a lot of rural buildings, Government buildings where staff travel significant distances to Winnipeg for meetings that may be very short in nature, sometimes various departments. A lot of travel costs are associated with that where teleconferencing could be a much better use of our dollars, a more efficient use.

We could save 3099 dollars in the long run and certainly result in as good a communication, if not better, being established among various branches of departments and Governments and so on. I wonder whether the Minister can indicate whether that initiative is continuing, whether it will be expanded, whether we are seeing results and whether any analysis has been done as to determine the kind of cost efficiencies and cost savings that can result from teleconferencing as opposed to travelling. Mr.

Albert Driedger: I would like to indicate to the Member that in light of budget restraints, various measures being taken can prove cost efficient. Manitoba Government Services offer teleconferencing facilities to help defray potential travel costs. The initiative is still there and continuing. Mr. Plohman: I did not catch it, I was being asked a question, but it did not sound like a very in-depth answer, Mr. Chairman.

I just wonder whether the Minister can indicate whether he shares that desire to expand vastly the use of telephone as opposed to travelling among various centres, and whether he sees a tremendous benefit developing there. Mr. Albert Driedger: I would like to indicate to the Member that I support that initiative and certainly the department is working on that. To ensure the broadest use of teleconferencing facilities, necessary equipment will be maintained at specific locations in Winnipeg and major provincial office buildings in rural areas.

I am supportive of the initiative and I think it is a positive one in terms of cutting down travel costs. Mr. Plohman: Could the Minister indicate which centres are now equipped for teleconferencing and whether there is the video component being added at all at this point? Mr. Albert Driedger: I am told that we have not advanced it to the video type of approach but we have locations in most of the provincial buildings in Winnipeg and the major rural centres at the present time. Mr.

Plohman: Could the Minister indicate whether his staff has undertaken any studies to determine the costs of the video component, and when is it actively being considered to be added? lt seems to me that that would make the acceptance of this method of communication versus travel much greater by the staff, if the video component was a part of it. Therefore, if it is not extremely costly it should be pursued. I wonder whether the Minister has undertaken any analysis to determine the cost impact of it. Mr.

Albert Driedger: First of all, I think the audio type of system is a very costly type of system, the video system is a very costly type of system. We have begun

Monday, November 14, 1988 looking into that at this stage of the game but before we get into that kind of a cost venture we want to make sure that there are benefits from the system. Mr. Plohman: Just on that, Mr. Chairman, I think a couple of years ago we had undertaken a study to dete rmine the cost effectiveness of a least the audio teleconferencing.

I do not know that it included video at that time, but it would seem to me that you would have to analyze or take a count of all of the trips that are made from various centres to determine how much money is being spent at the present time and then a percentage of that would have to be applied to the cost of providing the video equipment, capital costs and the operating costs to determine whether it was cost effective. Has that work been done? Mr.

Albert Driedger: First of all, I believe that a year and a half ago the teleconference study was done. lt is only a year and a half ago so we are just into that, to some degree, in promoting that. In order to do the video thing, we have to make sure that we have stations at both ends, that the cost benefit would be there in order to go into that kind of a venture. I am sure staff will be looking at what stage of the game we give further consideration towards that aspect of it. •

(2010) Mr. Plohman: That is exactly the question I was asking, whether the cost effect iveness has been yet determ ined? Obviously, there would be a cost. That is what I was wondering, whether it has been deter mined. Mr. Albert Driedger: Staff tell me that theoretically, even if it looks like it is making sense, we have to make sure that there is usage at both ends. Comparing it to other jurisdictions, we have to be very definite in terms that there would be that kind of usage before we go make that kind of investment. This is the stage where we are at right now in terms of looking at that possibility.

I am told that even audio, at this stage of the game, has not got to the point where they can indicate whether it would be economically feasible to do it, to buy the equipment, stations and stuff of that nature. Mr. Plohman: I am just not wanting to prolong this but want to encourage the Minister to pursue that and to determine whether the client departments would be interested in a video system as well in some of the major centres, rural centres. I think it would be more acceptable than just audio. In any event, I would encourage the Minister to pursue it rather quickly.

I just wanted to ask one other question under Recoverable from Other Appropriations. lt is the next subsection but there is a rather large increase there. I just wanted the Minister to indicate the reasons for that. Mr. Albert Driedger: Part of the major increase there is part of the increase cost and the other is the installation of Centrex in the Brandon area. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Chairman, which has resulted in greater cost recovery? Mr. Albert Driedger: That is right. Mr. Plohman: Thank you. Mr. Bob Rose (St. Vital): I am really surprised. I know the Official Opposit ion-and I have a question here.

We took a position that we wanted to delve into the important departments of Manitoba Health, Education, social programs. There is a lot that is very important that perhaps the NDP does not care about. They did not in the past. That is why this province is in trouble. Economic support, Highways, Northern Affairs, City of Winnipeg, that could take a whole 63 hours in itself is what is going to be left tonight. Law and order, a big item. Labour. Earlier we heard that we maybe finished at six o'clock. They went over items that had already been gone over before. They are great, this Party, at inconveniencing people.

We saw that by their continued efforts to try to call quorum in the House. They do not realize how many thousands of dollars of taxpayers' money is wasted when they do such silly things like tonight indicating that we would be through early and bringing extra staff into here and all the expense involved with it. Inconveniencing people seems nothing to this Government.

I can understand that for 16 or the 20 years, of the 20 years that we have had a socialist regime and the problems that you were faced with, a Government that would like to get into the retail business of selling surplus goods to their friends and associates, ones who would like to put all retail businesses out of business by dealing dir ectly with Government, I want to assure you that I was really pleased in not having to make this a learning process as much as we might see from a rookie MLA in that I had great cooperation from the department and from the Minister and continue to have such when I have questions to do with internal Government operations.

I want to go on record that I am completely appalled at even myself who may have made personal plans for earlier in the evening and that, and which I will stay here. I guess my question to the Minister, through you, Mr. Chairman, of these forward-looking initiatives that we keep hearing about from the Member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman), how di ligently did they pursue them in the last 6.5 years when they were in power? * (20 15) An Honourable Member: No, you have a lot to learn, because you are on your way- Mr. Chairman: Order, please. The Honourable Minister.

An Honourable Member: You worry about your own educa tion; I will worry about mine. An Honourable Member: Do not be such a fool. Mr. Chairman: Order, please. An Honourable Member: You sound like a fool. 3100

Monday, November 14, 1988 Mr. Chairman: Order , please. An Honourable Member: You look and sound like one. You have made an ass of yourself in public on many occasions. Mr. Chairman: Order, please. The Honourable Minister. Mr. Albert Driedger: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I do not mind this kind of debate going on. An Honourable Member: I would not call it debate. Mr. Albert Driedger: Based on the question from the Member for St. Vital (Mr. Rose), I cannot really indicate with what extent the initiatives were moved forward by the previous administration.

Ali i can say is that whatever there has been available in the short period of time, my staff have very capably drawn it to my attention and we have tried to move ahead in terms of trying to be as efficient as possible in terms of providing this kind of services. As you are well aware, Government Services is not a high profile type of department. 1t is sort of a service department and I think everybody is very conscientious in terms of, you know-we have basically not deviated in this period of time from the course of action that was there before.

We are following along the same lines in terms of trying to provide service as cheaply as possible for the people of Manitoba and for Government in terms of what they have to provide. Certainly that would be the initiative that I would be promoting together with staff in terms of trying to provide the best service at the best possible price. Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass? The Member for Dauphin. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Chairman, just briefly, as we go on to Postal Services. Mr. Chairman: We are on (f)(2). Mr. Plohman: Okay, I will wait till Postal Services. Mr. Chairman: (f)

(2) Other Expenditures, $95, 10 0- shall the item pass? The Honourable Minister. Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, I hate to interrupt. I just want to clarify the statement that was made by the Member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman) that we would not be getting into Highways tonight. Mr. Plohman: Let me comment on this because the Member for St Vital (Mr. Rose) suffers from a superiority complex and has great deal of difficulty understanding the process in this House and has begged some answers.

The fact is that the House Leaders have undertaken to discuss the remaining Estimates and to determine how they should be allocated and that has not yet been sett led. That is in the process of negot iation. Unfortunately , it has been dela yed somewhat by the fact that the Li beral House Leader (Mr. Alcock) has been in the States working on the American campaign 3101 and therefore has not been available to discuss it. That is unfortunate. However, there have been numerous hours and hours- Mr. Chairman: On a point of order, the Member for St. Vital. Mr. Rose: I imagine he is alluding to our House Leader.

I think if the Member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman) has some proof of his allegations then he should come forward, but for or.�e, in this Legislature, this pillar of democr acy, I am fed up with this American bashing that goes on here day after day by people who would rather burn flags than wave them. Mr. Chairman: The Member does not have a point of order. The Member for Dauphin. Mr. Plohman: Mr.

Chairman, what we have then is a case of the House Leaders negotiating and we have made a commitment to deal with these Estimates probably much quicker than they have been dealt with in many of the years that we have dealt with Estimates. We have maintained our commitment to that and we intend to finish this evening, if the Liberals do not waffle on that and filibuster it. What we are doing here is dealing with the issues. The Member for St. Vital (Mr. Rose) alluded to the fact there was a quorum. Yes, · there was one quorum called, not continuous efforts to call a quorum.

We have had Members from all Parties taking a great deal of time. The Member for Ell ice (Ms. Gray), for example, has taken a great deal of time in Health. We are trying to move through those Estimates. lt has not just been our Party that has dealt with some of those issues, and I do not like to belittle certain departments. I think that they are all very important. Government Services certainly is.

There are a number of areas that not only I want to follow the progress of from my position as critic for the New Democratic Party, but I think it is of importance to also the Liberals who have not had the exposure on these issues. They realize now and it bothers this Member for St. Vital (Mr. Rose) that there were a lot of good initiatives being undertaken. lt was not just a bumbling, fumbling bunch of idiots, as he happened to believe and walk around the city for last April. He is now getting an education. He does not like an education.

The fact is that he did not have this type of education before and now he is getting it. lt is something he has to show an interest in. I want to follow up, Mr. Chairman, with the indication that we are going to, from our point of view, finish tonight, and I do not know that it makes much point. I do not see us finishing before 9:30 p.m., 10 p.m., but certainly not longer than that, and it does not make a lot of sense to keep the staff from Highways waiting at that point. *

(2020) Mr. Chairman: Item 3.(f)

(2) Other Expendit ures $2,400,900 -p ass; 3.(f)

(3) Recoverable from Other Appropriations, $1,91 1,100- pass; Item No. 3.(g)

(1) Salaries, $649,800-pass.

Monday, November 14, 1988 Item No. 3.(g)

(2) Other Expenditures, $95,100- The Member for Dauphin. Mr. Plohman: Does this include courier services in Other Expenditures, or where does this come in then? Mr. Albert Driedger: I would like to indicate that courier services are not included in here because each department makes provision for courier service within their own expenditures. I am told that the only extent that courier expenses are involved here are what the postal services themselves use. Mr. Plohman: Would it be appropriate to ask a question about that here or is there some other place that it is more appropriate? Mr.

Albert Driedger: About courier services? Mr. Plohman: Yes. I know the department has been undertaking some analysis of the costs and studies to determine the impact of courier services in other departments, in all departments of Government. I wonder whether they have been successful in reducing the costs of courier services through those efforts, in communication with the client departments, I would assume. Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, the use of courier service has gone up. My department has made some notification of it, informed various departments that courier services are up.

I think there has even been a submission to Treasury on that aspect of it. Hopefully, by drawing it to the attention, the increased costs, it is going to be addressed in that regard. I think we are trying to notify all the departments of the increased costs, and we are suggesting ways in which they could reduce that cost. Mr. Plohman: In this section, deal ing with Other Expenditure s-! will go on to (4) and make it technically correct, Recoverable from Other Appropriations, with my question. Mr. Chairman: 3.(g)(2)- pass. (g)

(3) Postage $4,596,000-the Member for Dauphin. Mr. Plohman: Just one ques tion. Is this rather significant increase just the postal increases from Canada Post or is it a large increase in volume that we could attribute this to? Mr. Albert Driedger: The biggest increase is from the increase in postal services, in the postal rates. *

(2025) Mr. Rose: In regard to postal costs there, if you could refresh my memory, it seems to me that each one of the Parties is allowed so much for postal services. Is there an upper limit on that? How is it controlled? Mr. Albert Driedger: Is the Member for St. Vital (Mr. Rose) asking about the political Parties, how much they are allo wed? Mr. Rose: Yes. Well, their caucus offices. Mr. Albert Driedger: I am told that in our Estimates we make provision for so and so much for the political Parties involved.

If there is an increase beyond the figure that we budget for that, LAMC deals with the additional funding through their appropriation. I think, for the political Parties, the total allocation of budget is about $241,000.00. That is for the whole of the Legislative Assembly. Mr. Rose: Could you give me some sort of an idea how much that would be, a breakdown, in the current fiscal year between the three Parties? Mr. Albert Driedger: I am told that through our department we only have the budgetary figure.

The breakdown of that would have to come through the Clerk of the House or through LAMC who could do the breakdown of that. That is not within Government Services. We just have a global figure that we operate with. Mr. Rose: I will be interested at the end of the year to see the figures to see how responsible various Parties are in respect to postage fees in particular. Thank you. Mr.

Plohman: I just want to make a point and just perhaps get it confirmed that the charges for postal services are not capped at the present time for the Parties. lt is something the Legislative Assembly Management Commission will have to deal with. lt would not indicate any degree of responsibility or lack of it if one is more than the other. lt just means that one is doing more mailing than another and may be much more effective at communicating and believes that the messages they have to get out are very important. So I would not equate that with being irresponsible. Mr. Chairman: Item (g)(3)- pass. Item (g)

(4) Less: Recoverable from Other Appropriations $3,487,200-the Member for Dauphin. Mr. Plohman: The amount recovered here now- first of all, I want to ask the Minister just to refresh my memory-is this the first full year that postal costs have been fully recoverable from other departments? Mr. Albert Driedger: Yes. Mr. Plohman: Has this resulted from the experience of this one year?

I guess it is difficult, this being the first year, but I want to have an indication whether there has been some feed back as to whether this has been effective in any way in reducing the pressure for increasing postal usage because of the fact that the departments now are aware of the actual costs since they are being charged back of those postal services to them? Mr. Albert Driedger: Indications are that there is a downward trend based on the fact that they are becoming more aware of the costs but that, I believe, is actually with only one year. lt is premature to really 3102

Monday, November 14, 1988 indicate whether that is going to be a continuing trend, but we will certainly be watching that. Staff is on top of that. Mr. Plohman: I just want to add, Mr. Chairman, that was one of the reasons why that move was undertaken as I recall, and hopefully it will result in greater efficiencies and respons ibil ity on the part of all departments. Mr. Albert Driedger: I suppose what makes it a little bit more confusing this year is because we have had an election in the meantime and a change of Government, so there could be very positive things happening in the near future. *

(2030) Mr. Chairman: Item (g)(4)- pass. Resolution No. 73: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $642,200 for Government Services, Supply and Services, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1989- pass. Item 4. Project Services: Provides planning of the space requirements for departments and agencies. Provides project management, architectural and engineering services in the construction programs for government-owned or leased accom modations. Provides for the appraisal, acquisition and disposal of real property for all departments and agencies. (

a) Executive Administration:

(1) Salaries $90,800- pass; (a)

(2) Other Expenditu res $4,000- pass. (

b) Design:

(1) Salaries, $1,472,100-the Member for Dauphin. Mr. Plohman: Can the Minister indicate what major projects if any are being undertaken in the design

section of the department? Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, could I just get a clarification? Is the Member asking how many projects are under design right now? Are you talking major projects or regular projects? Regular projects for the year 1988, there are 193 regular projects. Is he asking for the more major ones? Mr. Plohman: I was just wanting to know whether there were any major projects or work that was being undertaken within the department.

Normal ly, the major projects are contracted out to the private sector for architectural work, engineering work, but there are on occasion some major projects done in-house. Mr. Albert Driedger: lt would be places like Milner Ridge and Headingley, where we are making changes at Headingley; the Highways Department, 10 Midland Street. Mr. Chairman, might I suggest, if the Member finds it acceptable, we will get a list for him of the projects that are being done that way rather than try and fuddle through. Then he can establish which ones would be of a major nature or not. We will make a list available to him.

Would that be acceptable? 3103 Mr. Plohman: Sure. Mr. Albert Driedger: We will make it available to both critics, of the major projects. Is that acceptable? Mr. Rose: Yes. Mr. Chairman: Item 4.(b)(1)- pass; 4. (b)

(2) Other Ex penditures $99, 100-p ass. (

c) Project Management:

(1) Salaries $1,003,000- the Member for Dauphin. Mr. Plohman: The staff in this

section are responsible for undertaking and overseeing the project that the Minister talked about on the first day, I think, of our discussions of his Estimates and that is the plan to have one building turned over to private sector for operations. Would that be done under Project Management? Mr. Albert Driedger: No, that would not come under thi s sect ion. lt would come under Prop erty Management. Mr. Plohman: Okay, I will leave that until the Minister's salary is discussed further. Mr. Chairman: Item 4.(

c) Project Management:

(1) Salaries $1,003,000-p ass; (c)

(2) Other Expenditur es $55,700- pass; (c)

(3) Alterations/Renovations-Minor Projects $248,000- pass;

(4) Less: Recoverable from Other Appropriations $248,000- pass. Item 4.(

d) Land Acquisition:

(1) Salaries $1,303,200- the Member for Dauphin. Mr. Plohman: I want to ask the Minister about the organization of the department that was called for in the report that was done, again I believe, a couple of years ago dealing with the appraisal function and dis posal, I believe, function of the department. Could the Minister indicate whether that has gone smoothly? I know that there were some staff in this area who were concerned about combining these functions. I wonder if it has gone relatively smoothly. I know in Dauphin, for example, there were some staff that were concerned about it. Mr.

Albert Driedger: I am told that based on that review that was done that there were some problems that were addressed to a degree. However, we have just completed another study in terms of what should happen and we hopefully will be able to add ress the circumstances, if we have some problems and try and get things functioning smoothly. If the Member is concerned about the aspects of the branches outside of Winnipeg, basically Dauphin and Brandon, I believe we have, that in those areas I do not think we have major difficulties. If there is any difficulty, it is probably more located at the Winnipeg office.

I believe that we found a position where we will be addressing those and get things functioning smoothly. Mr. Plohman: I understand what was called for was a separation of those two functions so that the people

Monday, November 14, 1988 doing the appraisal might also be doing the disposal. Has that been fully implemented? Is it functioning at the present time? Mr. Albert Driedger: That spli t system was implemented. From our present review, it indicates that there is some difficulty with that. I personally believe that there should be some discretion used by the director in many cases where it is of major nature.

Where the concern was whether it was going to be a conflict to some degree, that aspect would remain maybe, but it would be my feeling that it should be left to the discretion of the director to decide as to whether it should be a split or not because in many of the normal acquisitions of right-of-way, for example, instead of having two individuals go out and deal with it, it could probably in most cases of the smaller nature become more comfortably dealt with by one individual.

So we are looking at maybe the pendulum was swung a little too far to the one side and we are trying to bring it back so it can be more a judgment call. I think that would help alleviate some of the concerns that have developed late ly. Mr. Plohman: I shared some of those concerns in some discussion with some of the staff, people who had raised those concerns at trying that with being implemented and I felt that perhaps there should be some flexibility.

There was obviously a very good reason for people who are doing appraisals and they are not actually doing the negotiations and the acquisition or disposal of property as well. So I think if the Minister is looking towards in some areas integrating those, that maybe, you know, it is something that we could support.

On the other hand I think he has to be very careful as well that he does not go fully back to the system. lt may be more efficient even in time to having one staff doing both of those but certainly I think undermines the credibility of Government from the point of view of those individuals who have to deal with that, with the staff under those circumstances. lt is a very trying and difficult period for anyone, especially when they do not want to sel l their land or prope rty. Under those circumstances, the trust and the confidence that they have in the system has to be maintained. *

(2040) Mr. Albert Driedger: I want to indicate that I agree with the Mem ber, that I honestly believe that it should be more of a discretion call because I think in people's minds, when acquisition takes place, you have somebody that comes and makes a first initial contact and if it is a small piece of property then he leaves and along comes the next person who is going to do the acquisition which makes us look a little inefficient in the eyes of the public.

That is why I would favour and there has to be common sense used, but I would favour a discretionary call by the director who can sort of almost feel-they are in the business all the time. They can indicate whether there is a problem area developing or not and I think I would favour the discretionary move on that portion of it so that they can make a judgment call. I think they are very cognizant of the fact that certain areas just would not work. But they have a better understanding of it than I do so 1 would favour that kind of a leeway in there. Mr.

Plohman: I just wanted to ask whether the Minister can indicate whether there is a backlog in this area again or has it has been totally caught up? Also in that regard whether the disposal of all the rail lines has been com pleted that were being hand led by the Department of Government Services, the abandoned railway rights-of-way had been handled by Government Services. But apparently the new agreement that we had negotiated will put that in the hands of Natural Resources for future disposals. Up to this point, they have been handled by this

section of the department and I just want to know whether they are almost completing that and what kind of a backlog there is in this area. Mr. Albert Driedger: I would like to indicate that we have not totally caught up in the backlog and that is one of the issues that we will be addressing in terms of the processing end of it to see whether we can put more staff in there to move on the backlog end of it and also with the rail line property, we are not totally up to date in that.

I have received calls just like I think maybe other rural Members have but we are in the process of it and we feel that we will be addressing the issue to try and speed it up because there are many people out there that basically, based on agreements that were made, are paying the taxes already but do not have the property yet. The people knew when they signed the agreement that they had to pay the taxes. That was the understanding. At the same time, not everybody totally understands, so we are trying to move this ahead as fast as possible.

We are finally at that point where more of this rail line property, through previous agreements, is coming back, and we have made provisions to have it go back to the landowners through which property the rail line goes. I would like to escalate that as much as possible. I have indicated that to staff already, like they try and priorize to get those things cleared up so people have the peace of mind about it. Mr.

Plohman: I see that there is actually a reduction of one staff for this year so that there cannot be additional resources. lt has been allocated, although it is in administrative support as opposed to the technical. The other thing is, is it not the case that the Privy Council orders from the federal Government are the real reason that a lot of this property is being held up, the transfer from the federal Government? Mr. Albert Driedger: There are more of the federal transfers coming forward all the time. I have a list of them here. lt is an ongoing thing and it is escalating, so it is starting to come.

I think it is high time, too. lt has been a long time in the mill and finally we are getting to that point where we can address this. Mr. Chairman: Item No. 4.(d)( 1)- pass; 4.(d)(2)- pass; 4.(d)(3)- pass. 4.(

e) Accommodation Planning:

(1) Salaries, $148,000-the Member for Dauphin. 3104

Monday, November 14, 1988 Mr. Plohman: This is a new branch. Is this the first year for this branch or is it the second year? Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, I am told that this is the first full year. lt was implemented prior and this is the first full year that this

section is in there. Mr. Plohman: Could the Minister indicate the kinds of work that this Accommodation Planning Branch is now engaged in, in its first full year, and can he give an indication whether he feels that, from the work that was undertaken the first year, there will have to be an expanded branch here, additional SYs? I know that at the time this was being considered at one point it was envisaged as a somewhat larger group than the three SYs here.

I would just like to get an idea of whether it will be able to handle the work, and exactly what kind of planning it is actually undertaking, with which departments on a priority basis and so on. Mr. Albert Driedger: This is the first phase in the long term planning, strategic planning. First of all , in Winnipeg, we are looking at the Natural Resources building, Fort Osborne Complex.

There is a series of things that they are looking at, basically addressing the concerns within the Greater Winnipeg District at the present time. lt also includes the identification of surplus properties, whether they are still required and maybe what to do with them. So actually for the three SYs involved, as the Member indicates, they have a challenge ahead of them.

I think it is moving positively and, if more SYs are required, I am certainly not averse to trying to get them involved but, at the present time, I think it is a good initiative and I feel comfortable that we are moving in the right direction and making progress. Mr. Plohman: Just on that, obviously, this is something that has been lacking for years, long-range planning for departments to determine what the most efficient use of accommodation would be in requirements for departments.

One of them is the Natural Resources Department which has been spread out all over the place and makes it inefficient from the point of view of commun ications between the various staff and additional travel. I wonder whether the analysis of the cost impact, the cost efficiency of going to one central location has been completed with regard to the Department of Natural Resources by this Accommodation Planning Branch, what that shows, and whether on the basis of the cost effectiveness, it will be recommended highly in the very near future. Mr.

Albert Driedger: I am told that a study has been completed, but we have not crunched the final figures on it yet to get a good indication. I am prepared to forward that information to the critics once we have a bit of an idea as to the impact it would have. Mr. Plohman: I would appreciate getting that information because it is one that I think will show very positive cost benefits. I would ask the Minister to provide us with that as soon as he could. Mr. Chairman: Item No. 4.(e)(1)- pass; item 4.(e)

(2) Other Expenditures $24, 700- pass. Resolution No. 74: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceed ing $3,329,800 for Government Services, Project Services, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1989- pass. Item 5. Land Value Appraisal Commission: Determines and certifies amounts which represent due compensation with respect to the acq uisition or expropriation of land by any authority. (

a) Salaries, $62,700-the Member for Dauphin. *

(2050) Mr. Plohman: Could the Minister indicate the names and numb er of mem bers of the commiss ion? - (I nterjection)- Mr. Chairman, if there have been no changes from the previous commission, then that will be fine. If there have been changes, I would like to know who they are. Mr. Albert Driedger: I would like to indicate that there are changes. The chairman of the Land Value Appraisal Commission is Cameron Harvey, who was the chairman prior to that; the vice-chair is Helen Unruh, and the other members are Stephanie Barnett, Cole Campbel l,. Jim Husiak, and George Sawatsky. Mr.

Plohman: I did not get the total number. Is that the same size board as before or has it been added to? Mr. Albert Driedger: Same size as before. Mr. Plohman: Could the Minister indicate the current involvement with North Portage Redevelo pment? That has obviously been a very difficult issue for the Land Value Appraisal Commission to handle. Has that work now pretty well wound up, and have all of these been settled at this time or are there still some to be settled? Mr. Albert Driedger: The reason I took a little longer, I had to go back to a different

section on that to give you the information. The status of expropriated property interest as at July 31, 1988: 55 settled in full, 26 real estate, 29 leasehold and other interests, 43 are still awaiting claim details, 10 no compensation warranted, 6 not yet relocated and 3 awaiting decision by Court of Queen's Bench for the Carlton Realty case involved in the new Air Canada Building site, and one Mercury Holdings scheduled for court. Mr. Plohman: Just to confirm that the Minister said 59 were settled? Mr. Albert Driedger: Fifty-five. Mr.

Plohman: Fifty-five settled, and how many were not yet to be settled and are in process? Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, 43 are waiting claim details; 10 no compensation wanted; 6 not yet relocated; 3 awaiting decision by Court of Queen's Bench; and 3105

Monday, November 14, 1988 is Mercury Holdings which is also scheduled to go to court. Mr. Plohman: My question with regard to 43 claim details pending, what is causing the delay there? Is that to be provided by the legal people who are representing the clients there or is it the Land Value Appraisal Commission staff who have not put together the cases, or what is causing the delay? Mr. Albert Driedger: I am told that basically we are waiting more claim details on these cases. I do not think it is the Land Value Appraisal Commission that is holding things up.

I think possibly in some cases the people who they have representing claims maybe have a bearing on some of these things, because I have had the opportunity to have involvement where people have made direct representation to me. We find out that in many cases the clients themselves have put their faith in the legal system and it is sort of mulling around there. In many cases, we have been able to sort of get things unwound a little bit and move things a little faster. I certainly would like to see it move along a lot faster with everything. You cannot expedite the situation. Mr.

Plohman: I would just like to add to that too to encourage the Minister. Certainly, this has been a nightmare for a lot of businesses and people and staff and everyone affected. lt has been very difficult and it has been the province that has been the scapegoat in a way for all of these undertakings. This unpleasant task has fallen right on the shoulders of the province where it has actually been a tripartite undertaking with all three jurisdi ctions, the city and the federal Government involved as well, but yet the province is taking the flak.

There is a tremendous increase in the workload and also work that normally is not undertaken by the Land Value Appraisal Commission so it has been very difficult. So I would encourage the Minister in any way that he can help with it. I hope that we do not get into situations like this again, and I guess it is one area that we definitely learned a great deal from over those years that we were involved in this project. Mr. Albert Driedger: I would just like to indicate that part of the problem that has to be dealt with as well is the Leather Ranch case that went before the courts.

Actually since that time, there have not been too many cases that have come before the Land Value Appraisal Commission and we are trying to deal with that. The Attorney-General (Mr. McCrae) is bringing forward legislation to see whether we can clarify that position. So that should be in one of his Bills that I think is before the House or coming before the House to deal with that, because that has created part of the problem that has slowed things down a little bit. So we are trying to get all these things expedited as fast as possible. Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass? The Member for Ste. Rose. Mr.

Rose: I am just wondering. I see Expected Results as 10 days for certificates and carrying to the two weeks, and agreements within eight weeks. I would be interested to understand a little better what this present situation is and if this is the sort of situation that we have all seen in the Land Titles Office where there is a lot of catchup being in play, or is it a different type of situation? Mr. Albert Driedger: That situation in the Land Titles has no bearing on this here. This is a situation that has been in the mill for a long time.

I just know that from staff between Land Acquisition, have been working on these things, spend endless hours trying to get this whole thing done. lt has been a very complex thing. Basically, people within my department are the ones that are, as indicated by the Member already, are the ones that are actually being tagged with the difficulty of it and getting some adverse reputation by it because it has been a very, very complex thing. 1t has been a tripartite thing, Land Acquisition, other people that basically end up trying to do these negotiations. 1t has been a very frustrating process. Mr.

Ed Mandrake (Assiniboia): I was wondering, under the Land Acquisition, in the book here, does that also fall under when you are expropriating land for highways? Is that the same? Mr. Albert Driedger: Yes. Mr. Chairman, I would like to indicate to the Member for Assiniboia (Mr. Mandrake), that involves all acquisitions whether it is within the Department of Natural Resources, the Department of Highways. Anything to do with Government acquiring of property, it all comes to this department. Mr.

Mandrake: The reason I am asking is because in my travels throughout the province I have been asked to make representation on the bypass that was constructed in Dauphin. Apparently, there is land there that was expropriated that has never been paid for yet until tod ay. I was wondering why. Mr. Albert Driedger: I would like to indicate that I know the reason for it but I do not. What I would like to do is have the Mem ber, maybe by way of writing, let me know and I can find out whether or not it is within the Department of Land Acquisition or whether it is in the Department of Highways.

Usually when you have expropriation, some of these things take long, depending on the individual and how much they want to fight it. I understand that some claims go up to seven years. I hate to see this kind of thing. If the Member can let me know the specific circums tance, then I will get the information as to where the knot is in this issue. Mr. Mandrake: I will definitely take that and I will advise you in writing as to this land that was expropriated by the previous Government and that has never been paid for. This person tells me he has never taken it to arbitration anyway. lt just has not been paid for.

I will certainly take your advice and write you a note on that. * (2 100) Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass? The Member for Dauphin. Mr. Plohman: I want to just point out that in many of these expropriation cases, offers are made. lt is the 3106

Monday, November 14, 1988 same that is happening in the North Portage situation where nominal offers are made until a detailed appraisal can be done with information being provided and then negotiations take place. I understand, Mr. Minister, that if there is no agreement reached, that the person being expropriated can appeal it to the courts. If they have not undertaken that process, initiated that process, obviously that would delay proceed ings. That option is open to them.

If they are not satisfied, and I do not know in this case whether they are not satisfied with the price or what the reason is for it but I am sure that there are two sides to the dispute. Like most disputes, if one is not satisfied with the situation, it leads to a much longer process. I would be interested in finding that information out too. Certainly we had received no indication when I was Minister that that had continued on that long. These people had not raised it at that time that they were still waiting for their money. Mr.

Albert Driedger: I would just like to indicate that if the Member for Assiniboia (Mr. Mandrake) will forward me the name, then I will check and get the details to both him and the Member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman) on the issue once I have a clarification and find out where it is at. Mr. Chairman: Item 5.(a)- pass; 5.(

b) Other Expenditur es $68, 700- pass; 5.(

c) Less: Recoverable from Other Appropriations $80,000- pass. Resolution No. 75: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $51,400 for Government Services, Land Value Appraisal Commission, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1989- pass. Item No. 6. Emergency Measu res Organizati on. Coordi nates the provincial role in civil emergencies occurring within Manitoba. (

a) Salaries, $509,000-the Member for Ste. Rose. Mr. Rose: I would just like to correct the record . That information I have now is that no blame can be put on our House Leader. He was not at all in the United States doing campaigning for anybody. But I have also come to mind that -(Interjection)-or the New Democratic Party. But I do know that I have substantial evidence that substantial campaign funds for the New Democratic Party come from a United States-based union. So that might be of interest to the public of Manitoba in regard to that. Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass? Mr.

Plohman: I thought he actually was going to intervene on the subject. I wanted to just ask what changes have been made in staff in the Emergency Measures Organization. I understand there is a new coordinator of EMO . What happened with the former coordinator? Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, it was my understanding that Mr. Eckert retired, and Mr. Fred Zeggil, who was the deputy coordinator for EMO , Manager of Municipal Services from August 1985 to January 1988 is now appointed as the coordinator. Mr. Plohman: So Mr. Eckert has retired from his position. Is that correct? Mr. Albert Driedger: That is right. Mr.

Plohman: Can the Minister indicate how many of these staff, I believe there a:re 13 staff, how many of these are working with municipal Governments and with local Governments on the development of emergency plans since the implementation of the new Emergency Measures Act? I understand that it was proclaimed and is in effect and calls for compulsory, over a period of time, reasonable time, emergency plans for all communities. Has there been an acceleration of effort in this area since, over a number of years, there were well over 100?

I do not know whether it was 200 or 150 or whatever it was, plans that were actually completed. But there was still a substantial number left to do. Since it is now required under the Act, and the Minister can correct me if that

section has not been proclaimed, but I thought it was. Has he accelerated an effort in this area to have these all completed? Mr. Albert Driedger: First of all, I would like to indicate to the Member that there are three SYs that are working on the program with the municipalities, plus one that · does exercises.

I would like to indicate that the program is moving along and being escalated , that we have 147 completed and 38 in progress and take great pleasure, almost on a weekly basis, having more municipalities that are coming through the system where I have the pleasure of signing my name to an agreement with them and presenting a plaque to them. So it is moving along well and I am very pleased with that aspect of it. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Chairman, I can indicate too that the communities that do have an emergency plan in place are very pleased that they have it.

They feel that they have really accomplished something for the citizens of their community and probably many of them wonder why it took so long to do it, because they did not realize the importance until they actually got into the planning process and realized what they were really missing out on, insofar as having a plan, should an emergency occur. I want to ask the Minister whether he is receiving any funding from the federal Government for any of these staff at the present time, the 13 staff. Mr. Albert Driedger: lt is my understanding that the federal Government pays for one SY . Mr.

Plohman: Pardon me, one SY being funded by the federal Government on a term basis, is that correct? Mr. Albert Driedger: That is right. Mr. Plohman: Is there any indication that that person will be kept on beyond this year? Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, I am told that they have tentatively agreed five more years of funding. Now, whether we have an SY involved with that or not-we 3107

Monday, November 14, 1988 only have one more year agreed to the SY, but the general funding is I think tentatively on a five-year basis. They have agreed to another five years. Mr. Plohman: I want to compliment the Minister there, if he had a great deal to do with it, and the staff for that, because that is very encouraging. I just want to ask the Minister whether the staff have had any problems with the new Emergency Measures Act and its requirements in terms of implementation, and what has been the react ion of the municip alities, local Governments to date to it? Mr.

Albert Driedger: I would like to indicate that there has been no difficulty with it to date and things are moving very positively. lt is being well-accepted by municipalities and they are coming on track as fast as we could hope for. Mr. Plohman: Just one other question, Mr. Chairman. Has there been a special program of awareness and communication with the municipalities to make them aware clearly of the components of that Act and requirements? Mr.

Albert Driedger: Each municipality was sent a copy of the Act and our coordinator has continued to keep in touch to keep them aware of it, and I think that is basically how the process works. Mr. Plohman: One other question on this, could the Mi nister indicate whether there is any staff from Emergency Measures Organization working with and supporting the Disaster Assistance Board? Mr. Albert Driedger: Yes, it is my understanding that there is one SY who is working with the Manitoba Disaster Assistance Board. Mr. Plohman: Is that the secretary's position, Mr. Chairman? Mr. Albert Driedger: Yes, it is. Mr.

Plohman: I do have questions about the Disaster Assistance Board, but even though there is a staff person on it, technically it would probably be acceptable to get into some debate, but it is actually discussed under a separate appropriation, and so I will leave it for that. * (2 110) Mr. Chairman: Item 6.(a)- pass; 6.(

b) Other Expenditures $189,100-p ass. Res. No. 76: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $698,100 for Government Services, Emergency Measures Organization, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1989- pass. Item 7. Expenditures related to Capital (

a) Acquisition/ Construction of Physical Assets- Government Related $14,546,800-the Member for Dauphin. Mr. Plohman: Are you under 7.(a)? Mr. Chairman: Yes, 7.(a). Mr. Plohman: The sum there is $14,546,800-up $2.5 million. Can the Minister indicate, perhaps a listing maybe he could just provide it just to highlight a couple of the maj or projects? Is there any other major Government building that is being constructed under this appropriation this year? Is the expenditure here for the new Remand Centre and any others?

Other than that, I would not expect the Minister to go through all of them, but if he could provide us with a listing of those projects I would be satisfied from my point of view. Mr. Albert Driedger: I would like to indicate that I will make a list available to both critics in terms of the because there is a variety of them, just so that they have a total list. I am just going to try and highlight some of the- Mr. Chairman, if I might continue. I have a list here, but I do not know whether all of these will be continuing on, whether we will get them all on stream.

I can make the list available of the projects that are there. We have no difficulty with that. That does not mean that they will all be proceeded with under the circumstances, but then they have something that they can compare with for next year, or whenever the case may be. I will make that list available to both critics. I am just trying to find out which would be the highlights. Mr. Plohman: For example, I did ask about the Remand Centre. Are there dollars allocated for construction in this fiscal year for the Remand Centre? Mr.

Albert Driedger: The Remand Centre is not in here for capital at this stage of the game. There is for the design and certain preliminary work, but the major portion of it will be in the '89 budget for the construction of the building. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Chairman, could the Minister indicate what the projected cost of the Remand Centre is as it stands, and how much has been flowed of those dollars in the design of the building? Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, I can give the Member an approximation. I believe we are talking about $23 million, probably a bit more than $23 million.

The plans call for a finalization of design work and planning during '88-89 with construction to start in '89- 90. Occupancy is expected late in the 1991 fiscal year. Capital approvals are for $23.3 million. Approved funding for design work and planning is $997,500.00. Expenditures to date have been $500,000 for the planning fees. Mr. Plohman: One final question on the Remand Centre, Mr. Chairman. That has been a project that has been discussed for some time and I am pleased to see that it was finally approved by our Government and has been subsequently reappr oved by this Government.

I would just ask the Minister to indicate if he did not already, and I may have missed it, the planned opening as it stands now of the new Remand Centre, what is the target completion date? Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, I indicated before but I will repeat. The occupancy is expected late in the 1991 fiscal year. 3108

\ Monday, November 14, 1988 Mr. Chairman: Item 7.(a)-pass . Item 7.(

b) Vehicle Replacement , $3,513,000-the Member for Dauphin . Mr. Plohman: Just one question on this matter which we indicated during the discussion on the fleet. The replacement period cycle has now gone from four years to some six years and I wanted to know how many vehicles are in the fleet at the present time, and how many were last year at this time; and secondly , how many are being replaced; the number of vehicles at the present time and the number last year at this time and the number of replacements? Mr. Albert Driedgar: I would like to indicate to the Member that the fleet is approximately 2,500.

There is virtually no change and replacement is based , you know-approximately 300 vehicles this last year. Mr. Plohman: I would indicate that it is over an eight year replacement on that basis, if there is not more money allocated to get it down to the six-year cycle. So the Minister may want to comment on that . Secondly , is the policy in place that new vehicle requirements have to be taken from a lower priority list and therefore taken away from someone else who has been allocated as opposed to adding new vehicles when there is a requirement because of program changes for an additional Government vehicle?

Mr. Albert Driedger: First of all, I would like to indicate to the Member that I have some concern about the fact that there used to be more money in the replacement budget than we have now. I think o"ver the years we were looking at $5 million and we are down to $3.5 million and I have some concern, because we had brief discussion on it before about the replacement cycle.

We are now looking at a six- to eight-year replacement cycle versus a four- to six-year replacement cycle and invariably what happens , depending on mileage, of course, but the older the unit the more your repair costs , like you start running into higher repair costs and it just automatically in the interim , by having this figure cut down you save money for the immediate time , but I think in the long run it is something that catches up in terms of replacement cost because the fleet is getting older. So .1 have concerns in that direction .

My understanding is the Member questioned about in terms of who gets cars . I think the criteria is set and it is based on requirement. If they can justify the need for a vehicle , I believe that is the criteria that is used. There are certain guidelines that are established and those that meet that guideline then qualify for vehicle . •

(2120) Mr. Plohman: Just to indicate that I share the concern that the Minister has for the replacement cycle, it is something that I argued on a number of occasions in a d ifferent capacity , both as Minister and also as a Treasury Board member , and it is an easy area to cut but because there are not people paying initially as it is in some other departments when cuts in programs impact on people . In this case, you cannot see the results right away and- Mr. Albert Driedgar: Pay me now or pay me later . Mr.

Plohman: -it has been an area, yes, I argued that the costs would rise over the longer term and it hurts the Minister there to make strong representation to have that increase, the Vehicle Replacement Fund. My question with regard to the number of vehicles was simply whether the policy was still in place that we put in place, that it really capped the number of Government vehicles so that the fleet would not keep on going and that if there were a method used to identify lower priority vehicles, these vehicles then had to be given up by the departments when higher priorities were identified for vehicles.

So there was not an add on, there was justification for a vehicle, yes, but it came from within the fleet. Mr. Albert Driedgar: I would like to indicate to the Member that the assignment of a Government vehicle is predicated on meeting at least one of the following criteria approved by Treasury Board in '87 which basically is emergency use, special service use, multistop urban use, obtainment of 20,000 kilometers · annual business distance, remote base location. These are all criteria that basically are involved in the allocation of a vehicle. The Member indicates a problem , I misunderstood this question .

Maybe he wants to repeat it. Mr. Plohman: The Minister did misunderstand my question . It was not what the criteria are, but once they have met the criteria and it has been deemed that they shall be given a Government car, is it added on to the total number in the fleet or is taken from within the fleet from a lower priority vehicle that is not meeting the criteria any longer? Mr. Albert Driedgar: It is my understanding that the fleet has basically stayed the same.

What has happened is that in some cases the people did not qualify, vehicles were removed from certain individuals that did not necessarily meet the criteria . Others again did, so it sort of stayed and it has been staying the same . Mr. Plohman: That is the point . It did not just stay the same by accident, it was because of the policies that required it. I am just asking the Minister whether he supports that policy and continues to implement it or indeed if there has been a change? Mr. Albert Driedgar: I would indicate to the Member, at the present time , I support that position .

I have no difficulty with it at the present time . Mr. Mandrake: One question to the Minister : why are they using the criteria of six years before they auction a vehicle off? Why could they not use the repairs on the vehicle , it is your guideline as to the repair, and then say once the car has reached that dollar value in repair , then the car is automatically auctioned off? This 3109

Monday, November 14, 1988 six years, you could get a lemon. In that six years, the car could cost you $20,000 to keep it on the road. Mr. Albert Driedger: I am told that is just basically a guideline. You might have vehicles that perform better and longer. There are also vehicles that would be a lemon after two years or something like that. I could use an example where some of the individuals are vicious drivers and drop the rear end . . . the car twice already . lt is not the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey). I see their driving habits. He is one of our bette;- drivers. lt is just a guideline. Mr.

Mandrake: One final questio n, please, Mr. Chairperson. The Red River Community College Body Shop repairs a lot of vehicles for the Government. In fact, they buy from Autopac, '89s. As soon as they are written off, they go to Red River Community College, they are fixed up for Government and they are put into use. In fact, if I may say so, they are even in better condition than they were brand new. So why can the Government not develop a far better system in using that repair process at Red River Community College instead of buying a brand new car? Mr.

Albert Driedger: lt is my understanding that the Red River College picks up certain units that are written off by Autopac or that have certain damage, the kind of damage that they want to work on. For example, let us say, front end, back end, framework, whatever the case may be, when they are fixed, then Government looks at whether they can possibly use them in our fleet and if not, we then sell them. Mr. Mandrake: Am I correct in hearing you say you sell them? Mr.

Albert Driedger: lt is my understanding that last year the department bought $42,500 worth of vehicles from the Red River Community College, and this year, to date, we have bought $12,500 worth of these kind of units. Mr. Mandrake: That is just the point I am trying to make. Instead of going out and paying $23,000 for a brand new Taurus or Sable, why do we not go and save money by going down to Autopac and purchasing almost a brand new vehicle that has been written off, give it to Red River Community College to fix up for you and you will get it for a lot cheaper price.

You are saving money and the Minister opposite me here can have a brand new vehicle tomorrow morning. Mr. Albert Driedger: lt is my understanding that that is what we are trying to do, that we are trying to buy those vehicles. My understa nding from the Deputy Minister is where we can take and get them to give them to them, we do that. We will encourage that kind of thing. Mr.

Rose: Just as a clarification of the question from my colleague, taking into account that we would realize that probably the people who put the most miles on their cars in a year are cab drivers in Winnipeg and that the overwhelming majority of cabs in this city are 10 years or close or more, and certainly they would be keeping track of their costs versus new capital costs and amortization and what have you, would I understand from what you said previously that if indeed some cars or one car in the fleet did not experience any undue repairs, even though it was seven or eight or nine years old, we would keep that particular vehicle or do we have some sort of a hang-up at some particular level that we dis pose of it?

Mr. Albert Driedger: Again, I would have to indicate that the six-year rollover is a guideline only. There are units that would probably have to be replaced sooner and there are also units that would probably serve very capably longer. lt is sort of a general term, but we have, I think, a very sophisticated system there in terms of keeping a record of the costs. Anything that is done to a Government car, it is all on a computer.

We can tell exactly how often a car is in for whatever and then if you have a car that is supposedly a lemon or something like that, you try and move it sooner, and if it is a car that has basically required very little maintenance, use it a little longer. lt is basicall y a guideline but we know within the department, with the sophisticated equipment we have, exactly what we are spending on each unit. Mr. Chairman: 7.(b)- pass. 7.(

c) Office Equipment Replacement $459,600-the Member for Dauphin. Mr. Plohman: Just one question here. Again, this area has not necessarily kept up to replacement requ irements and therefore it has resulted in inefficiencies where people might be using outdated equipment that badly needs repair in some offices. Can the Minister indicate, with another drop in this

section by over $50,000, nearly $60,000, whether indeed he is indicating with this drop a lack of priority for equipment replacement, which can often be very much a false economy? *

(2130) Mr. Albert Driedger: I would just like to indicate to the Member that we have a gentler Government. They do not kick their tables around and their desks around. As a result, we expect that there will be better usage of it. Seriously, it is matter of concern to some degree, but with some of the electronic equipment that is being used and stuff like that, we do not have to do as much replacement. Mr.

Plohman: Just to ask more succinctly my question then, is this amount going to meet the requirements that the department has for equipment replacement or is in fact going to result in a further dropping behind in replacement? Mr. Albert Driedger: My understanding is that basically it does. Mr. Plohman: Basically. Thank you. 3110

Monday, November 14, 1988 Mr. Rose: I notice also a drop of $58,000 in the appropriation for Equipment. I observe, from time to time, that this type of equipment seems to be getting more and more reasonably priced. In other words, it is not inflating but deflating the cost of it. Is that true and would tha t account for a major part of the $58,000.00? Mr. Albert Driedger: I will try and answer that one. I have got the explanation here. Basically, I think $100,000 was used for new equipment in the last year. We are looking at $50,000 for this year. The level of the replacement program has stayed the same. We replaced the same amount of equipment. Mr. Chairman: Item 7.(c)- pass; 7.(

d) Departmental Capital $249,900- pass. Resolution No. 77: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $18,769,300 for Government Services, Expenditures Related to Capital, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1989- pass. We would ask staff to withd raw while we deal with 1.(

a) Minister's Salary $10,300.00. Shall the item pass the Member for Assiniboia. Mr. Mandrake: I am assu ming that we can now ask general questions within the department? Mr. Chairman: Yes. Mr. Mandrake: Good. I have been told the Minister had alluded to earlier that under his department they have a body shop and a garage. Am I right? Mr. Albert Driedger: Yes, Mr. Chairman, we have a garage with a body shop in it. Mr. Mandrake: You have mentioned the fact that you are buying high tech equipment for this body shop and also for the garage.

All I am trying to say is why do we not take that kind of equipment, send it out to Red River Community College, let them do the repairs on the vehicles as opposed to having a twofold type of system? lt would save us money. Mr. Albert Driedger: I have not thought of that but when you have a fleet of 2,500 vehicles I do not know whether the Red River Community College would be in the position to do the kind of continuous and ongoing repairs, technical repairs because the Red River Communi ty Col lege specializes in tra ining. lt is something that can be looked at and I can check it out. Mr.

Mandrake: I thought I would just suggest that to you, Mr. Minister. I feel that there are a lot of, particularly in the body shop one good frame machine is $60,000, so we are dupl icating it. We are going to have to buy one for your body shop so why not buy it for the Red River Community College and they can fix up those vehicles very, very easily. Mr. Rose: Are you ready to vote on the item, Sir? 3111 Mr. Plohman: Just some closing comments on the Estimates, Mr. Chairman.

I, first of all, want to indicate to the Minister that as we reviewed the department, I am pleased to see that the Minister has carried on with a number of important initiatives right through from the staffing, which I indicated in my opening remarks were, as far as I was concerned, extremely innovative and certainly excellent to work with for me when I had the opportunity and a pleasure to serve as Minister of Government Services, and I am sure my colle agues as well are competent, and I think that the Minister has an excellent department.

As the Minister has noted as well, there were a number of initiatives undertaken during the time that we were in Government and he has continued with them, that will I think result, many of them, in greater efficiencies in managing our buildings, our vehicles and our general operation of our department, accommodations. I think that the department is being operated very well and I want to compliment the Minister on that. I would raise an issue that I think is of deep concern.

I raised a number of issues throughout the discussions and where I suggested to the Minister that perhaps he should be placing greater emphasis- fleet vehicles being one particular area where I have to say that I as Minister, and following myself, my colleague was · not successful in maintaining that at the level that we felt it should be, that these debates go on in Cabinet as all of these things do. Eve ntually, decisions are made. There is one area that I am concerned about. I want to just ask the Minister a couple of questions on it and sum up then from my perspective.

That is the initiative he has undertaken to privatize the management of a Government building. I am very nervous about that because for one thing it has long-term implications for layoffs of staff and so on. If the Minister feels it is more efficient at some point it could very well result in short term contracts from a private entrepreneur to indeed attract the business, and then, escalating later on, it is very difficult for the Government to get out of those contracts.

I would urge the Minister to ensure that in selecting a building that he ensures that it is not one of our most sensitive buil dings in terms of the work that is undertaken there. I want to ask the Minister whether in fact it is correct that the building that is being selected for this is the Driver and Vehicle Licencing Building on Portage Avenue. Could the Minister indicate whether that decision has been made? Mr.

Albert Driedger: First of all, I would have to indicate-t he Member is expressing some concern that this a trial project only and the rationale for doing that, 1 think it would serve as a bit of a guideline and give us an indication within the department whether our operations are operating as economically as possible. We are looking at choosing a building where it would be reasonable to try and do that comparison. lt is very important.

I would also like to indicate that if we proceed on this basis, that the staff who is going to be involved where we do this experimental thing will be moved into 800 Portage which is a new building.

Monday, November 14, 1988 So there is nobody that is going to be affected in terms of a job. 1 think I feel comfortable with doing this on a trial basis just to see whether, by and large, staff are performing well enough that the department is doing the job most economically. I think doing it on a trial basis, it will give us a good chance to have that kind of a look at it, to see whether there are ways that we can improve or whether we are operating as efficiently as we could. I do not feel uncomfortable with it, especially in view of the fact that nobody is going to be losing a job under these circumstances.

I feel it is a reasonable approach. * (2 140) Mr. Plohman: The Minister did not answer that the Driver and Vehicle Licencing Building at 1075 Portage is indeed the target building for this comparison. I say if it is, that he will certainly hear a lot from our side of the House because this is an extremely sensitive building, sensitive informa tion, very confidential information.

I wou ld feel much more comfortable having it operated and managed by the Government people that we have there now than making this accessible to a private firm that would take that over. lt is, I think, an issue that the Minister will hear a great deal about if indeed that is what he is choosing for his pilot project. Mr. Albert Driec:lger: I am not trying to indicate that there is a big secret. We are looking at various buildings and where to do this, and 1075 Portage could well be one of the buildings that is being targeted to proceed with it because it is a high profile building in terms of public use.

I would be very sensitive in terms of if the project or staff did not maintain the building properly. I know that everybody, my department as well as myself, would feel very sensitive about any criticism. So maybe that is a good place to try it. We would certainly be watching it very closely and making sure that the performance was up to the standards that we would want. A place like that I think is a more critical place to probably try a trial project because that is where the public will be viewing it, not just the Government employees. I think that would be a relatively reasonable comparison. Mr. Plohman: Mr.

Chairman, just in concluding, I mentioned as my primary concern the sensitive records and work that is undertaken there. That was something I think the Minister should consider very carefully. Mr. Albert Driec:lger: We will have a look at it. Mr. Rose: Just before we go, I wanted to make a very brief statement. I appreciate the operation and the system of the Minister and his staff and the many hours he has spent which I am sure was beneficial in speeding up and shortening the Estimates process. I think it is a good system and we look forward to working with them. Mr. Albert Driec:lger: One final comment.

I would just like to indicate the fact that we have gone through the Estimates process does not take away from the fact that I am sure there are going to be questions from time to time of concerns. I appreciate the expedience with which we have gone through this portion of the Estimates. If there are any questions at any time, I want to ind icate that staff or myself are prepared to accommoda te and give the information as much as possible. Mr. Chairman: Item 1.(a)- pass.

Resolution No. 71: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceed ing $2, 152,900 for Government Services, Administration, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March 1989- pass. That concludes these Estimates for the Department of Government Services. What is the will of the committee? Committee rise. SUPPLY-HEALTH Mr. Chairman, Mark Minenko: I call the Committee of Supply to order, please. We are continuing to consider the Estimates of the Department of Health. I understand that earlier today there was an understanding that we set aside certain items.

The Minister advises that he has an answer to a question with respect to item 2.(d). The Honourable Minister of Health. Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Healt h): Mr. Chairman, the Member for Churchill (Mr. Cowan) asked about estab lishing, if I understood his question, a statistical base for cardiovascular health.

In 1986 Health and Welfare Canada and the Nova Scotia Government jointly funded a heart health survey in Nova Scotia and the survey consisted of over 2,000 cases and measured knowledge and attitudes about heart health and also included physical measurements of height, weight, blood pressure and blood cholesterol. Subsequent to that, the federal Government began to negotiate with other provinces to expand this database and every province has been approached.

The other Maritime provinces-NBC have agreed to participate-and we and the balance of the provinces, Ontario, Quebec, Saskatchewan, Alberta are still in the discussion stages as to whether we participate in the database. Other sources of data are also available including results from Canada's Health Promotion survey and various smoking, fitness and nutrition surveys. Our participation in the cardiovascular health database will depend on the cost effectiveness of obtaining the additional data on cholesterol and blood pressure which earlier studies only participated partial information on it.

We are in the process of trying to deter mi ne what our cost effectiveness will be of participating in that with federal Government. Mr. Chairman: Item 2.(

e) Hearing Conservation:

(1) Salaries-the Member for Kildonan. Mr. Gulzar Cheema (Kildonan): Mr. Chairperson, before I ask questions on the Hearing Conservation, the Me mber for Spri ngfield (M r. Roch) had two 3112

Monday, November 14, 1988 questions-as he wants to go home-so if he could start with the questions. *

(2005) Mr. Gilles Roch (Springfield): I have more than two questions and I am not necessarily going home. I just wanted to ask the Minister. lt is in regard to the program known as the "Audit ory Verbal Teaching Method ." You no doubt are aware that the Society for Manitobans with Disabilities operates a preschool program, and although it has been somewhat successful, it is not really the answer for some of these children. This particular method, I should say, is being used with a lot of success in Ottawa and indeed some other provinces and States.

I was wondering if there was any chance of it being available in Manitoba in the near future. Mr. Orchard: Mr. Chairman, I am informed the program the Honourable Member refers to is available through the Ottawa General Hospital and the Manitoba Society does not offer that particular program. I guess it is the usua l balancing act .

One could, with unlimi ted resources, presumably offer the new program, but the society at present bel ieves that with their given resources, they are offering as effective a program as possi bl e which assists the greatest numb er of Manitobans, although I guess there are possibly up to three families in Manitoba that may well be better served by the particular program offered out of the Ottawa General Hospital. Mr. Roch: I realize that. I do not know what the number of families are, but I know there are at least three, if not more, coming on stream.

I was wondering if any thought had been given to bringing in-1 am trying to recall the term, is it an oral rehabilitationist? That is the term. Is there any thought of possibly bringing one in? I understand that the problem in Ottawa right now is that they have come to a point where the program is saturated and they are not accepting any more people into their program there. There have been some cases where the people have had to go to-if my memory serves me correct -the Helen Beebe Centre in Pennsylvania, and the cost for one week is $1,000.00.

That is not counting, of course, the travelling, hotel expenses and meal expenses and so on and so forth. As time goes on, there will be more of a need for this type of program as diagnostic procedures identify these problems. Mr. Orchard: Mr. Chairman, the province does not employ any oral rehabilitationists who work with the hearing impaired in terms of assisting them in verbally communicating.

We do have the speech therapists, speech pathologists, but of course that is a different discipline that my honourable friend is talking about in assistance to the hearing dis abled and we simply do not have that expertise currently on staff. Mr.

Roch: What I am actually asking, I suppose, is there any possibility in the near future that such a staff person might be available if there is sufficient need in Manitoba, because at one time it was a little more difficult to identify these childr en which are hearing impaired; but now, with modern technology and modern methods of diagnosis, it is becoming easier, I suppose, to identify these problems in which childr en do need it. As time goes on, it may be that the need does exist.

I realize that we have spending constraints, but if the need exists there may be a "Ciesire on the part of the department to take the responsibility for such a program and institute it here in Manitoba. *

(2010) Mr. Orchard: appreciate my honourable friend's comments and suggestions. I am not unsympathetic at all, but let me be candid.

I think that we have significant underresourcing of our speech therapy, speech pathology program in Manitoba right now, and in terms of not wanting to downplay the concerns of the specific group that my honourable friend is referring to, we do have a significant need which is not new, it has existed for some time, that we are simply not meeting in preschool childr en without hea ring impairment, in order to attempt to provide them service, but I will take my honourable friend's suggestion and I appreciate him bringing it up this evening.

We will do some investigation to see the kind of client identification and demand and the availability of the specialty that my honourable friend refers to. Mr. Roch: The reason I bring it up is because obviously there are some people who can afford it and obviously there are some who cannot. The problem is with those people who cannot afford it, on a continual basis to go out of the province for these programs and, in other jurisdictions, I believe that the Department of Health, under the auspices of a separate departmental agency, has often integrated this service into a major hospital such as Ottawa has done.

I am happy to hear that the Minister is indeed looking at possi bly offer ing this in the future, but I was wondering if there was anything more specific that could be-ma ybe it is not possible at this time-co nsidered for possibly the '89-90 year. There is also the problem that a few years into the future these childr en will be entering the school system and some provision may have to be made for them at that point under special needs programs.

I do not know if it is going to be a cost-shared program between Education and Health or strictly a Health or strictly an Education problem, but at this point in time it is essentially a problem which falls under the Department of Health. * (20 15) Mr. Orchard: I cannot offer any hope or commitment for the next Estimates process.

As I indicated earlier on, we have, and I have a significant personal desire to see some enhancement of our service capability in terms of speech language pathology, and that of course is a straight dedication of additional resources which I do not think I have to remind my honourable friend is difficult to come by at the best of times, let alone tod ay. In terms of some of the specific directions, my honourable friend has also identified not a jurisdictional 3113

Monday, November 14, 1988 problem but a current service capability which exists to some degree in the Department of Health . For instance, at the Health Sciences Centre, part of our funding provides for speech and hearing services through the Health Sciences Centre and we have Just reached an agreement recently with the Health Sciences Centre to enhance that capability .

The reason we chose to make that enhancement at the Health Sciences Centre versus enhancing our regional services Is very specific and I want to explain that to my honourable friend so he knows where I am attempting to take this area of funding In the department . The Health Sciences Centre Clinic dealt significantly with preschool children . The school system , I forget the number off the top of my head but I think there are 70-plus speech language pathologists in the school system but they deal with kindergarten and older children .

I am informed that they have a fairly significant workload and as a result, in the regions and within Winnipeg, they do not have the ability to assist very much. They do some, but assist very much in the preschool time frame. So when we have the decision as to where to go as an lnteri _m step In trying to develop a longer-term program for speech language pathology , the first and logical expansion was at the Health Sciences Centre where we had the preschool children assessment and a provision of service.

I made an arrangement with the Health Sciences Centre, with their cooperation , to split the funding so that we actually ended up with an expansion of service beyond the resource we dedicated at Health Sciences Centre because it is one of their priorit ies as well . They have waiting lists to assessment 14 months long , a waiting list for assessment. I have met on two occasions now with the Association of Manitoba Speech Pathologists, speech therapists, and I have tried to glean from them advice as to where we ought to proceed . It is kind of a unique situation .

Most of those Individuals work for the school boards but yet their governing act Is under my responsibility . So there is that sort of split jurisdiction, if you will. They believe that as an association, If I can paraphrase where they are coming from, that if we had resource dedication which Is limited, which of course we do, that one of the most productive target groups would be preschool children , the case being quite simple, that if you intervene early enough and young enough in the child 's life, you might get by with six months of therapy to correct the speech impediment or the language problem,

whereas at school you may work with that child for upwards of a year, roughly twice as long . So when we are approaching this over the longer haul, that will be a direction we will focus in on, but to be very candid with my honourable friend, we do have that hump funding that the Member for Churchill (Mr. Cowan) mentioned ahead of time. There is no question that if we can put the resource to preschoolers , eventually most of the demand in the school system ought to disappear .

I mean , if you correct the problem before kindergarten and that resource may be needed In a lesser amount, then we can start focusing on seniors and other adult Manltobans who have language impairment because of stroke and other side effects of disease . But I tell my honourable friend that in the short run where my focus of enhanced service delivery-if we can dedicate the resource to it-and you will notice I said, if we can dedicate the resource, etc ., will be to target the preschool age children because I think that clearly is probably our most effective place to put into focus add itional resources . *

(2020) Mr. Roch: I can well understand why-it is pretty basic-if the department can provide the resources, but if you cannot, what is the short-term solution until programs are developed for these people? Mr. Orchard: Well, Mr. Chairman , I may be on slightly the wrong track , but maybe my honourable friend can help me. The Manitoba Society does offer some service program . Now it is not the program model that at least some of these parents believe would be most effective . That is only available in Ottawa General , as indicated • earlier . We have an individual in Westman Region who can provide some services.

Again, there is a distance problem . I guess the easiest way to describe it is the philosophical problem that it is not the program that the parents believe would be the most effective one. However, that has not prevented us trying to offer those services that are available to those children in an effort to try and facilitate solution of the problem . Mr. Roch: The reason that I am asking these questions is because I happen to have parents in my constituency who unfortunately have children who are very severely hearing impaired .

They belong to an association, the Association of Deaf and Hearing Impaired Children of Manitoba . I understand through those parents, not being familiar totally with that particular association, that they have certain recommendations which they would like to bring forth to the Government . Is it the intention of the Government, or I should I say more particularly this Minister, to meet with these people in the near future so that at least they can offer suggestions? Mr.

Orchard: I think a very effective thing for them to do is to meet with the director of Hearing Conservation and find out what services might be available to assist them and, indeed, to see exactly where they believe the province ought to be going . I think that would be a good first step. As I indicated to my honourable friend earlier though , that does not necessarily mean that in the immediate future we are going to be able to offer the kind of resolution to the problem that they would think most appropriate . Mr.

Cheema: Hearing screening and treatment for all ages is extremely important , more particularly so for the younger-aged population . That is where, as the , Minister of Health indicated, the early detection and treatment will play a wider role in the development of children and they will be improving the total intellectual ability and increase their chances of full human potential. 3114

Monday, November 14, 1988 We are definitely pleased that there was an allocation of a full speech pathologist at Health Sciences Centre, but there are certain areas where we still only have two-and-a-half full time at St. Boniface Hospital. We have about three at Brandon. So there was a total number of eight speech pathologists before these four new staff were allocated. Now even by increasing the four to twelve will not improve the total condition because there are 250 childr en who are still waiting, as the Minister has indicated, a 14-month waiting period.

Now what are the further steps and further plans to see that dissipating period decreased to a minimum, at least at six months and that age group, because that age group is specifically vulnerable for any intellectual impairment, as early detect ion will definitely save money over the longer period for the preschool childr en as well as the school-aged group. Does the Minister have a special plan to bring more speech pathologists? What are the other areas of his major concern outside the area of Winnipeg also? •

(2025) Mr. Orchard: Let me tell my honourable friend that there is an old saying in rural Manitoba that half a loaf is better than no bread at all. I recognize that the four positions at Health Sciences Centre will not completely resolve the problem. However, let me tell my honourable friend that it is a significant first step. lt is a step that demonstrates the dir ection that we wish to proceed in. I want to offer my friend the caution that I do not believe we are going to be able, over even a four-year period of time, to build the resource to meet the demand and that troubles me.

I have to tell you that troubles me, but then you know, as Minister of Health, I am not prov iding service to specific needs groups. I am prov iding service to the people of Manitoba, or attempting to. There are innumerable areas in which resources are needed. We are not going to address all of those areas of needs even over a four-year period of time.

I simply want to tell my honourable friend that we will be moving in cooperation with the professional association in conjunction with the schools, because after having done the problem identification, the next step to problem resolution is to see how you can best coordinate your resource allocation. As I indicated earlier, in the school system we have a significant allocation of resource, far greater than what we are able to offer in terms of the department.

I have to answer in my mind as Minister whether I ought to move in a parallel program to the school system placing resource of speech pathologists in the regions throughout Manitoba to service preschool childr en. I want to do that. I think Government's objective is to attempt to do that, but maybe we have to take a look at whether we can do it through the existing structure of the school system rather than create a parallel administrative vehicle.

I have not answered that question yet because I have not really had the time to spend analyzing it and discussing it within this Department of Health and, indeed, in conjunction with my colleague, the Minister of Education (Mr.

Derkach). 3115 There is no question, it is an identified need that I take very, very seriously. lt is almost a personal goal and one has to be very careful of not having very many of those as Minister of Health, as they apply to specific and definitive program areas because you can be accused of changing the funding or of directing funding to suit your personal whims ·rather than general need. I think in this case my personal feelings coincide with a need of the program need.

I am troubled when I see the United States system of del ivery being maligned on a regular basis, but yet it is my understanding that in the United States most states have a law which requires the state to provide speech therapy services to children who have an impairment in their ability to communicate.

The United States is much more progressive than we are in Canada in addressing that problem and I guess it stems, if I can go right back, to the Constitution and freedom of speech, because their belief in a dem ocracy is presumab ly, and it is the same as ours, that you cannot participate in a democracy unless you have the ability to communicate . Nothing is more important today-pardon me-1 should not say "nothing" because there are some things that are more important, but few things are more important than an adequate ability to communicate. In today's day and age, communication is everything.

We · have the electronic information revolution where communication is probably one of our most important interpersonal skills. I have seen individual cases where an inability to communicate has caused untold problems within a family and within children. I believe that as much as possible we ought to attempt to provide some basic assessment and treatment services to children in Manitoba with speech problems. Having hopefully provided resource for that, that same resource can be made available to assist adult Manitobans who have, through sickness or other cause, found themselves inflicted with a speech impairment.

I simply want to indicate that we are moving in the right direction, I think, and hopefully we will be able to make further steps in that right direction as we dedic ate resource in future budgets. •

(2030) Mr. Cheema: lt is definitely a positive step in the right dir ection but as I said earlier , the number still will improve but not to the extent they should be.

What should be the exact figure, I do not think anybody can tell that we have to have so many exactly decrease to a zero level but still there should be more allocation of resources so that at least, because we are not looking at one child, we are looking at the whole family structure and development and also it causes a lot of distress to the families and later on more time for the school speech pathologist, and in turn more time for the teachers. lt is ongoing for the family.

I think it still will be a good idea to increase the numbers or maybe look at the numbers and in four to six months time review of four more speech pathologist has attributed to decrease the number for waiting list. My second question will be that I have not seen any dir ections for the hearing program for the seniors,

Monday, November 14, 1988 because as I indicated during the Question Period, seniors, at least one-third or almost 50 percent of them, suffer from some kind of hearing disability. That is what most of the studies indicate . At present in Manitoba, we have about 3,800 people in personal care homes and to the best of my knowledge, we do not have even one person allocated specifically for this purpose and it is taking more time just even for a direction of the hearing Impairment.

To serve those needs for 3,800 people, I think we need to have some programs so that their needs can be addressed to improve their quality of life and in turn I think we will save the funds also.

More so, at the Deer Lodge Hospital and also Seven Oaks Hospital, the numbers are not sufficient even to meet the regular demands of the hospital patients and inpatients which are coming both from medicine as well as surgery, and those patients, as the Minister has indicated, having problems secondary to the cardiovascular, if we delay their recovery even by a few weeks, it does cost more money to keep them In the hospital. It does cost more money to rehabilitate them than at a later stage.

I think some planning has to be put In place where nursing has to be done today or tomorrow but there should be some direction to improve the services. Mr. Orchard: In answer to my honourable friend from Springfield (Mr. Roch), of the new positions that were just recently approved at the Health Sciences Centre, one is a pediatric audiologist for hearing impaired children. That position has not been as of yet, but that may also offer another avenue for support . In addition, another of the speech pathologists will be hired for adult services at the Health Sciences Centre. Now, Mr.

Chairman, there are four centres in Winnipeg-Concordia, Victoria, Deer Lodge and Seven Oaks Hospital-and through these centres, the very critical adult cases receive services . Not that one wants to discriminate, but in reality the focus of our resource is to children who we hope we can resolve the problem of their speech Impairment before they get to school age or certainly attempt to relieve that in part. I want to chastize my hono\jrable friend for the questions that he posed in Question Period about the 22nd of October-if I could just find it.

I have made this caution of my honourable friend before that when he comes in and poses questions in the House, that he ought to assure that he has his information correct . On October 20, I want to tell my honourable friend, you did not have your information correct because you indicated that various studies indicate that 60 percent of the residents of personal care homes will have some form of communication disorder .

Now my honourable friend has some information that my department does not have, because I am informed that there is no substantiated information as to the · percentage of residents in Manitoba personal care homes who have communication disorders . I do not know where my honourable friend got his information from, but the department does not have it and we fund the personal care homes. I offer him a suggestion as to where he got it from. A 1988 Report of the American Speech and Hearing Association states it is estimated that 31 percent to 50 percent of residents in nursing homes have communication disorders .

That is an American study. Maybe it has applicability, but it is not even the 60 percent that my honourable friend talked about. I suspect my honourable friend might be pulling some figures out of the air to make his case .

I want to indicate why I think that might be true, because later on in that question my honourable friend said some of them, referring to the 60 percent which is not the correct figure, 60 percent of people with some sort of communication disorders, and my honourable friend goes on to say that some of them are waiting for three years and some of them are waiting until 1995, if nothing has been done. That is seven years.

My reply to him was-this is without checking with the department, because had someone been waiting that long for service, that would have been an issue that was brought up to me and I never recalled that issue being brought up. I indicated to my honourable friend at the time that I did not think his information was correct and sure enough it is not, because it indicates in here that Manitoba Health Services Commission staff receive very few queries from personal care homes regarding the need for or unavailability of these services .

They receive approximately five to ten annually and, to their knowledge , there is no waiting list stretching into 1995 for residents in personal care homes . Where does this waiting list exist that my honourable friend is talking about because again the department that provides services, the department that funds the personal care homes, does not know of it?

I recognize we have a problem in speech pathology and in providing services, but you do not make the problem any better or any easier to solve by putting that kind of information which is not correct on the record to leave a much worse impression of the system than what really is the case. I think it does a disservice to this Legislature that my honourable friend would do that . Mr. Cheema: The information was given. That question does indicate clearly that the study-that does not mean things are existing the same because you have not done any study in Manitoba.

The numbers are 3,800 people in personal care homes . If you have any evaluation program for those people, you will have those numbers here also. That was my question and the question was very clear that when the waiting period is for just assessment for 12 months and if those numbers are 60 people are suffering from hearing disability, you will have a waiting list of even more than that . That is exactly what I said and I stand with my comments still the same. I think you should have a system where it should be an evaluation of the seniors will be done .

Until you do have an evaluation system, how can you make a statement that is not correct? -{Interject ion)- Absolutely. I think, because we do not have the people who are serving the seniors even for their hearing evalu ation, 3116 I

Monday, November 14, 1988 you are making a statement in the Ho use that information is not correct. That absolutely is a misleading statement. Mr. Chairman- *

(2040) Mr. Chairman: The Honourable Minister of Health, on a point of order. Mr. Orchard: No, not on a point of order . My honourable friend indicated that I made a misleading statement to the House. The only person who has misled the House was the Member for Kildonan (Mr. Cheema) on Thursday, October 20, 1988, during Question Period and I will quote his exact question. "Mr. Gulzar Cheema (Kildonan): The Minister should be aware that virtually there are no speech language pathologist services available for personal care homes.

Various studies," he says, "indicate that 60 percent of the residents will have some form of communication dis order. Some of them are waiting for three years and some of them will wait until 1995 if nothing has been done." I simply indicate to my honourable friend, no such study exists to the awareness of the department. If he knows of a study, please give me the study in definitive terms which says 60 percent, because you have information that my staff does not have. Secondly, they are not aware of any waiting list stretching into 1995.

Again, would my honourable friend tell me from whence he got that information before he accuses me of misleading the House when he did so on October 20, 1988? Mr. Cheema: Mr. Chairperson, I will again explain what I sa id. I said the various studies do indicate that the seniors in that population age group would have some form of hearing impairment or commu nication difficulties. If the Minister has to interpret it his own way, that is his way of dealing. My question is, can you tell me the exact number of the speech pathologists available for the personal care homes? Mr.

Orchard: Severe problems, as I have indicated to my honourable friend, are addressed to any one of four of our hearing centres in the City of Winnipeg. Mr. Cheema: Can the Minister tell us again the exact number of speech pathologists for the seniors for the personal care homes, and who is coordinating those services? What kind of services are available at the primary level before they are being referred to these centres? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Chairman, there is no dedic ated staff going to personal care homes. There are hearing centres.

There is now going to be hired one speech language pathologist for adult services, but there is not a speech pathologist dedicated to the personal care home service. Let me read to my honourable friend, before he wants us to dedic ate resources to this. I am informed by staff at the Manitoba Health Services Commission that they receive very few calls, some five to ten per year.

Now, is my honourable friend saying, with a waiting list that is 14 months long in preschool audiology at the Health Sciences Centre alone, that he says we should respond to five to ten calls per year from the personal care homes and ignore those children? I think my honourable friend has not got an issue in which he has his facts right, No. 1, or his priorities right, No. 2. Mr. Cheema: I think we are getting into an argument which is absolutely not going to solve the problem here.

My question is still the same, as the Minister has adm itted now that there is not a single speech pathologist available for personal care homes. That was my question on the 21st of October. That question he has answered tod ay. On the record, he is saying that there is no speech pathologist available, and now he is saying that there are only five to ten requests per year. When you do not have an evaluation systern in the personal care home, who is going to come for a speech pathologist? That is what I am sayi ng.

Do you have any planning for the personal care homes where the evaluation is being done on a regular basis? Are the seniors of Manitoba different from the seniors of the USA? If the USA has 60 percent who have some disabi lity, do we expect something medically different? · There may be a 3 percent to 5 percent difference in numbers, but still the problem is going to be there. I am saying that the children's problem is extremely important but for the seniors, when the population is growing, you do not want a system in five years time when you will have the same problem as we are facing with the children. Mr.

Orchard: Mr. Chairman, that was not the nature of my honourable friend's question on October 20. My honourable friend put two pieces of misinformation on the record , first of all, that various studies indicated 60 percent of the residents in personal care homes have communication disorders of some form or another; and, secondly, he said that some of them are waiting three years and up to 1995 for service. Having checked both of those statements of presumed fact by my honourable friend through the department, I find both of them to be in error, that they were not factual.

Now, my honourable friend makes the case that there are no speech pathologists working within the personal care home system. My honourable friend is correct. Let me point out again to my honourable friend that of the four positions that we arranged and agreed in conjunction with the Health Sciences Centre to put on staff, one of them is a speech language pathologist for adult services. That may well be, in severe cases, adults in personal care homes. lt ·depends on the demand of people who suffer from stroke and have speech impairment because of that, and other debilit ating diseases.

My honourable friend has identified a need. I have told my honourable friend that the need amongst children is vastly unserviced. I am telling my honourable friend that we are providing some services to the adults, but I have to tell my honourable friend that three out 3117

Monday, November 14, 1988 of four positions at the Health Scienc es Centre are focused and dedic ated towards release of problem amongst childr en. In the immedia te future, that will be the majority focus of program improvement. If my honourable friend believes we ought to dedi cate our resource to the personal care home side of it and not to the preschool side of it, please tell me because I would like my honourable friend to indicate that on the record as the position of the Liberal Party of Manitoba. Mr.

Cheema: Our position clearly indicates from the question we have asked in this House, we are the ones who have pressed for the speech pathologists for the children. My question today is very different. My question is for the prevention and for the treatment of the communication disorder for the elderly population in personal care homes. What I am requesting or asking the Minister is what kind of plans does he have? He has admitted that there is not even a single speech pathologist available to deal with those services. He says that the problem does not exist.

That may be his way of thinking, but a problem does exist and it will come to surface more once this evaluation of the seniors is done. Could he, at some time, make some plans to address the needs of the personal care home population so that they do not end up suffering from hearing impairment and make use of their life? Mr. Orchard: Yes, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Cheema: Can the Minister tell us what is the comparison of speech patholog ists versus the population of Manitoba? What is the average as compared to the other provinces of Canada? Mr.

Orchard: I will have to provide that information to my honourable friend tomorrow. *

(2050) Mr. Cheema: What type of training programs are available for parents and infants under that parent and infant training Activity Identification? Can the Minister tell us in which areas those programs are available in rural Manitoba as well as the northern population? What are the results from that program? Is there an ongoing evaluation study? What are the objectives for this year? Mr. Orchard: I wonder if I can get my honourable friend to be a little more specific in terms of the training program. Is that for hearing impairment or speech pathology? Mr.

Cheema: That is for both hearing impairment and hearing conservation and speech pathology. If you do not have one, how can you have the other one? Both programs are part and parcel of the same identification program. Mr. Orchard: We have one teacher for the hearing impaired on staff in the Westman Region providing services to that area of the province. That is our only individual in the department who provides that kind of services and assists in providing parents with ability to help the childr en in the hone environment as well. Mr.

Cheema: Can the Minister tell us the number of clients that have been served last year and this year so far? What is the cost effectiveness of this program? How many staff are there to provide this? Is there only one or is there support services staff also available? Mr. Orchard: Was my honourable friend there referring specifically to the position in the Westman Region? I do not think I can separate that out, can I? That individual is providing service to seven childr en, a very intensive program, I am informed, involving a high degree of parent participation as well.

The children are spread out presumably in the region so there is a fair amount of travelling involved as well. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Chairperson, can the Minister tell us, is this a part of the school program or just outside the school? What is the age group of those childr en? Mr. Orchard: Well, these particular childr en are all preschool. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Chairperson, under the Expected Results of this area of promotion of Hearing/Deaf Awareness Month, can the Minister tell us what kind of media plan he has for this month? How much money is going to be allocated, and what is expected out of that? Mr. Orchard: Mr.

Chairman, not unlike many advocacy week declarati ons, the departm ent's participation is one that I take pride in, in terms of signing the proclamation declaring the particular week as the Hearing Impairment Week, etc., etc. We do not provide direct funding for advocacy during that week, but we cooperate with the association who are sponsoring the week and provide them with informational resource as requested and as available. (The Acting Chairman, Mr. Parker Burrell, in the Chair.) Mr. Cheema: Mr. Acting Chairperson, it is one of the major areas of identification under this program.

If that is all that has to be done, just the announcement, then why is it one of the big identification activities? I mean, how are you going to convey the message to the public just by announcing one announcement? Are there any special brochures or other media campaign or through the schools or to the community centres, or is it going to be done through the personal care homes or through the hospitals or through the various physicians involved? Mr. Orchard: A fair criticism. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Acting Chairperson, we will move to the next item. We have to look to the Member for Churchill (Mr.

Cowan), if he has further questions. The Acting Chairman (Mr. Burrell): Item No. 2.(e)(1) pass; 2.(e)(2)- pass; 2.(e)(3)- pass. We are now on item 2.(

f) Gerontology:

(1) Salaries the Honourable Member for Kildonan. 3118

Monday, November 14, 1988 Mr. Cheema: Mr. Acting Chairperson, as the population of seniors is growing with the percentage now standing at approximately 10.8 percent, the needs of this community have to be addressed regularly in order to meet demands as best as possible. By the year 2001, we will have a population of approximately 12.8 percent of Manitoba and the average of the population in Canada will be in the same range for the seniors, 65 and above.

Can the Minister indicate to us what are his major goals for this area and what specific problem has he identified under the Directorate of Gerontology? * (2 100) Mr. Orchard: Mr. Acting Chairman, I have had meetings with the Manitoba Society of Seniors and other seniors groups, the Manitoba Council on Aging. I might just point out to my honourable friend that the Manitoba Council on Aging was an initiative undertaken by my immed iate predecessor as a Progressive Conservative Health Minister, the Honourable Bud Sherman, back in I believe 1978 or 1979.

He did that because he recognized then, and I suppose it was not unique because I presume every Government has had access to the statistics which demonstrate clearly that our population is a greying population, if you will, and I ought not to say that necessarily. However, I say that without pointing fingers.

The recognition of the grow1h in the numbers of seniors in our society presents Governments with a multitude of challenges because in the Department of Health there is no question that the impact of senior citizens, particularly in the latter years of their lives, can be significant in terms of the impact on the budget of this department. I only refer my honourable friend to the Personal Care Home line as one area. The next line that we will be deal ing with later on this evening, the Continuing Care line, is program focused, not exclusively, but primarily at senior citizens.

We do dedic ate a significant amount of resource to the seniors population in this province. Mr. Acting Chairman, if there is a goal in simplistic terms that I would have and that this Government would have in terms of policy for senior citizens, that would be to develop and advance and enhance, because some policies exist that have this as the criteria, but to develop and enhance and enrich pr ograms which foster independence amongst our seniors, to make them the self-reliant individuals and citizens that they always have been and indeed are.

In many ways programming out of gerontology, in particular, is designed to provide with modest financial contributions- I will put it that way the grow1h and development of support services for seniors within their respective home communities.

Those support services are modestly funded, as I indicated, and provide the framework for extensive volunteer participation by seniors themselves, and by others in the community but primarily by seniors, to self-a dmin ister various support programs to help seniors enjoy their retirement years in a lifestyle involving recreation, visitation and any number of other programs that keep the seniors in the community actively participating, healthy, and indeed providing oftentimes a valuable portion, a large portion, of the social fabric in many of our communities, particularly in many of our communities in rural Manitoba.

I want to tell my honourable friend that the busiest place on Main Street, Miami, most days is not the hotel, because it burned down a year and a half ago, but it is rather the senior citizens centre and it would often rival even when the hotel was up and running. There are more cars, there is more activity, there are more people there than in probably any other single continuous operation in the community. Miami is a small community and not unique in that regard.

Our senior population is a tremendous resource of this province and it is the goal of this Government to, as much as possible within our financial resources, provide services to seniors that will enhance and further their independence and their maintenance of an independent lifestyle. lt is with that goal in mind that we do provide some significant support funding through this department in order to assure that seniors have the opportunity to create their own administrative structures

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	34-1-77b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	34th 1st hansardpdf 77b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	45c722b2c09428eafaa75f2ef1c31f1337f43e6a

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