PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY Volume 1 Number 115 4th. Session 34th. General Assembly VERBATIM REPORT TUESDAY, JUNE 16, 1970 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE GEORGE W. CLARKE

June 16 1 1970 Tape 1263 1 Page 1 The Boose met at 10:30 A.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair: PETITIONS: MR ROBERTS:(Bon. Minister of Health:) Mr. Speaker. I feel that I should begin the presentation of this petition by pointing out that it was unknown to me that the gentleman who collected the petition. and I am sure with the very best of intentions, informed the news media of it. So this morning's "Daily News" has the subject matter of this petition in it. 1. assume the "Evening Telegram" also will.

I can assure the House that it was unknown to me, and I am sure the gentleman who is responsible for collecti .ng the petition, Mr. Jackman, ·mean: t no offence to the Rouse. I say this because I believe it may very we"!l be shading on a breach of our 11ri..rileges. If it is in order, I would ask leave of the House to present a petition which I received yesterday, which has been signed by several hundred, I would think around one thousand, of citizens of St. John's. The prayer of the peti.Uon is quite lengthy but I think if I just read two brief paragraphs, it will show the intent of it.

June 16, 1970, Tape 1263, Page 2 The petition is that we the citizens of St. John's and nearby surburbs who are of all classes of political and national beliefs and occupations are alarmed, shocked and fearful of the very grave danger of pollution and contamination that will occur to our water supply from Winds~Lake reservoir should the proposed building development at nearby Oliver's Pond be permitted.

The petitioners go on,aod say that they are very pleased to learn that as Minister of Health, I have been giving the matter full investigation with the far seeing view of the situation as it could be not only today but in five to ten years time, as we see it now in the places that they have mentioned. Mr. Speaker, the petition is signed by a galaxy of citizens. It might be of interest to the House, sir, to know that three former members of this House have signed it: Mr. Richard Greene wbo sat "tor the district of Bell Island; Mr. John R. O'Dea who represented the district of St. John's South and Mr. G.

Rex Renouf who on two separate occasions also represented the district of St. John's South. In addition it was signed by the former Lieutenant-Governor of this Province, the bon. Fabian O'Dea and by the former Comptroller and Deputy Minister of Finance, Mr. Walter Marshall. There is also a J. J. Murphy, I am not sure if that is the late lamented gentleman from the Arcade. I am not sure of that at all. In any even'_ the petition has been signed by a great number of citizens. I know that the issue is of some concern to a great number of people 7405

June · 16, 1970, Tape 1263 -- mw page 3 in St. John's. As I have said earlier in reply to a question from the Leader of the Opposition, no permit has been issued to the Oliver's Pond and Development until the necessary inve~;igation has been completed, no permit will be ' issued by my officia~s. Accordingly, Mr. Speaker, I move that this petition be received and be referred to the department to which it relates, which I suspect is the Department of Health. MR. 80HN C. CROSBIE: Mr.

Speaker, in connection with this petition, I support the prayer of the petition which is to the effect, I gather, that the petitioners do not want this development at Oliver's Pond to proceed. The Minister of Health or the Department of Health have been con- sidering this matter now for some months. I do not know what ~he delay is, either the health inspectors say that it passes health standards or they say that it does not pass health standards. Why the matter should be held up so long is a bit beyond me.

I cannot see anything the Minister of Health can do in this matter except act on the advice of his officials; and they must have advised him by now. But the minister is seeking a lot of advice in this matter. · But, Mt .• Speaker, in my view whether or not this development should go ahead is not just a matter for the Department of Health. I do not believe it is just a health matter. I think that this should be looked as a further abuse of the building permit system instituted by the St John's Metropolitan Area Board.

In other words; the developers seek a summer cabin permit, permits to build summer cabins, but, Mr. Speaker, the developer will not be building summer cabins, that is cabins that people are just going to live in three, four or five months a year. What will happen is what has been happening in summer .cabin areas throughout the Metropolitan Area. People are building permanent homes, using septic tanks,and wells and living in them all year around but having a summer cabin permit from the ~t John's Metropolitan Board.

What is needed is regulations passed by that board which will prohibit a person from occupying a summer cabin, if they h~ve gotten a permit for a summer cabin, that will prohibit them from occupying it for more than five to six months a year, some period of time like that,

Tape 1263, June 16~ 1970 - · Pa~e 6 It could happen to Lawrence Pond. I hope it does not. But within two years or three years the seepage from that septic tank, coming into the head of the pond, not the lower end, could very well contaminate that pond to a degree, certainly if it were multiplied three or four times over you would have what has happened to the seven ponds within the Municipality of StJohn's, none of them fit ,_ven to swim in. MR MURPHY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker! I too would like to add my few comments in supporting this petition.

I brought it up in the House a few days ago, and the whole matter, of course. Anybody who has a small bungalow or small house, summer house, outside the eity of StJohn's, for summer recreation, is no doubt ·aware of the great many things that could happen to drinking water, so on and so forth. It is not my intention to go into the matter of pollution, Mr. Speaker, but I would say }hat very, very strict controls are needed on this thing. I do not want to go into the whole matter of pollution again, but we can think of the South Shore of Conception Bay where there is a cesspool created there.

This has been done, although they are not summer homes, but by being just allowed to build indiscriminately along an area, and someone else's septic tank is here and the well is just a few feet away. So I would like to concur in the remarks of all the previous speakers, that some stringent regulations should be enforced by the Metropolitan Commission, under whose control the place has come. I am very much in favour. And, Mr.

Speaker, if I may be pardoned, at this particular moment, to extend a welcome to a member of this House, recently elected - unfortunately he has to sit some sixty feet away from the scene of action, in the person of Mr. William Marshall, who I understand, and I am trying to get the matter cleared up, is not as yet entitled to take hi~ seat. We have been looking for rulings from very many people, and up to this point we have not obtained a definite ruling as to when he can assume his seat.

I discussed the matter this morning with some officials and I hope to have an official ruling this afternoon and possibly we may be favoured and the District of STJohn's East may be favoured to have their elected member take his place, possibly before this session ends. Also another distinguished gentleman, in the person of Mr. Frank Moores. I would like to welcome him also, Mr. Speaker. '7t1fl0

June 16, 1970, Tape 1263, page 7.· apb. RON. E. DAWE: A point I should add is that in regarding to the Oliver Pond Development, as you know the Metropolitan Board is under the jurisdiction of my department, and I can assure the House that nothing further will take place there until we receive the .eport of the Minister of Health and that I will be passing on to the members of the Metropolitan Area Board recommendations that probably we should have more strict building regulations.

I would like to inform the House as well that, for more than a month in the past, the officials of my department, that is of the Planning Division and other officials of the department, have been meeting with the Department of Mines, Agriculture and Resources, with a view of bringing recommendations to government with regards to development of cottage homes and this type of development generally throught the Province.

This has been under active consideration, as I say, between both departments and we would hope that within the near future to have recommendations to present to government . with regard to this type of development throughout the Province as a whole. MR SPEAKER: It is moved and seconded that this petition be received and referred to the department to which it relates: Those in favour " aye, " Contrary "Nay," Carried. PRESENTING REPORTS OF STANDING AND SELECT COI'!MITTEES: RON. E.WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, I would like to table a report of the Newfoundland Fisheries Development Authority covering the fiscal year 31st.

March, 1970. NOTICE OF l-~OTION: RON. L.R.CURTIS: It may be an exercise in futility,Mr.Speaker,but I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to· introduce a Bill, entitled a Bill, "

An Act Respecting The Consolidation And Revision Of The Statutes Of Newfoundland." Also, A Bill, "

An Act Further To Amend The Members Of The House Of Assembly Contributing Pensions Plan Act, 1962." Also, A Bill, "

An Act To Amend The Waters Protection Act.'' Also, A Bill, "

An Act Respecting Collective Bar~taining Between The Government Of The Province And Its Employees And Certain btheT Employees." 7410 r

June 16, 1970, Tape 1263, Page 8 apb ~NSWERS TO~ESTIONS: RON. E.M.ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, on the Order Paper of June 12th., the hon. member for Gander asked a question, no. 551, about some space in the town of Gander, and I earlier referred it to my colleague the Minister of Public Works. His officials have now gotten me the information and so I will answer it. We do not rent any space in the town of Gander, Mr. Speaker, and so part two of the question does not apply. The answer to part one; how many square feet of space is occupied in the town of Gander I cannot really answer.

The public Health facilities for the town of Gander are operated from the James Paton Memorial Hospital. I do not know of any areas that is segregated and marked out specifically as being for the purposes of public health. It is part of the hospital's general work as the medical centre for the area. If it is of relevance; the James Paton Memorial Hospital has I am told, 111,000 square feet in but, but as you know, that is for a lot of things. I think that answers the question Mr. Speaker, if not the hon. gentleman could of course try again. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) }ffi.

ROBERTS: No, we are not renting anything, we rent nothing in Gander. MR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, supplementary question. I am aware of the hospital which is there, I have been fortunate enough not to be detained there yet, but I seem to recall seeing a sign in the shopping centre, the Department of Health sign on a door on the south side of the shopping centre. What is this space being used for, is it a health inspection office? MR. SPEAKER: Mr.

Speaker, I will check again, but I can only say I am told by mY officials that no space in the town of Gander is rented by the Department of Health for public health services. The only rental units we have in Gander I are some housing for some of the doctors on the staff of the hospital, I will check for further points, but this is what I am told. ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, before we go into Orders of the Day, I would like to add a welcome to Mr. Marshall also who is up in the gallery. If these by- elections keep up Mr. Speaker, it ~s goin~ to get quite cr~ded over on this 7411 r I I

June 16, 1970, Tape 1263, Page 9 apb side of the House. We hope he will be in his seat before we adjourn •••••• MR. ROBERTS: (Inaudible) MR. CROSBIE: The bon. Minister of Health will be surprised about what is going to happen when the election comes. MR. ROBERTS: (Inaudible) MR. CROSBIE: Including White Bay North. When the minister goes down in White Bay North, it is going to be disastrous for the minister. MR. SPEAKER: Are we finished the question? MR. CROSBIE: Yes Mr. Speaker, I would like to move that the House adjourn to discuss a definite matter of urgent public importance.

I ask leave to move the adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a matter of urgent public importance. That matter Mr •. Speaker, is this- it is the matter of the lay·offs at the dockyard in St. Jobn'·s, where sixty-eight .employees overall are to be laid off. This has now been changed to forty-seven temporarily, because, twenty-one men are to be held over for a month to do some repair work. There are forty-seven employees of the St. John's dockyard to be laid off this week, including men with as much as ten to fifteen years service.

The purpose of asking this matter to be debated is to enable the Government to or to request the.Government to make representation to the Department of Transport, the Government of Canada, to have work assigned to the shipyards so that the men can continue working. In other words, although this is not a matter within Provincial jurisdiction, I think that the House should request the Government of Canada. particularly through the Minister of Transport, to see that some Department of Transport ships are assigned for repairs or otherwise to the St. John's dock­ yard. This dockyard,Mr.

Speaker, is suffering becau!le of a lack of drive and initative on the part of the people responsible to see that we get work in the dockyard at St. Iohn's rather than Halifax or elsewhere in Canada. I have the matter here in writin~ Mr. Speaker, it is a matter of an impending lay off of forty-seven men at the St. John's dockyard, and the urgency of the Government making immediate repr••entation to the Government of Canada, through the Minister of Transport,to obtain work for the dockyard so that the 7412

June 16, 1970, Tape 12.63, Page 10 · apb lay off can be prevented. I submit this is an urgent matter because the men are to be lai~ off this week Mr. Speaker. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speake:r, if I may, and as your Honour has pointed out to us on a number of occasions, the only relevant question on a motion of this order, of this type, is the urgency of debate, not urgency of the matter. It is our submission Mr. Speaker, that there is no urgency of debate, 7413

June 16, 1970, Tape 1264, Page 1 -- apb }ffi. ROBERTS: The problem in question arose yesterday, It was reported in the press that yesterday the committee had before it the estimates of the Department of Labour. The matter could have been thoroughly debated at that point if it was in order. Secondly,Mr. Speaker, I would submit that there is no reason 'it is urgent, and that the business of the House should be deferred to wait the debate of this. Thirdly, Mr.

Speaker, I would submit further that it is not a matter within the jurisdiction of this House - it is a matter affecting the Government of Canada, F.inally, and perhaps most importantly, the Government is always considerably ahead of the member for St. John's West. We have for some time been making representation to the hon. Mr. Jamieson,the Minister of Transport at Ottawa,to try to get still further work for the dockyard here in St. John's. It is a serious problem. The solution to it lies in Ottawa.

We have been making representation to the Minister of Transport. l~hile we do not know what will come of it, we_intend to go on, keep on making those representations. I submit that there is no urgency of debate Sir. MR. CROSBIE: With respect to what the hon. minister is saying,Mr. Speaker, this is the palid excuse so often used by the hen. minister, that the matter is outside the jurisdiction of the Government of Newfoundland. The matter of employment in Newfoundland, jobs for Newfoundlanders is a matter within the jurisdiction of this Government no matter who else is involved.

The urgency of this matter is that the men are being laid off this ·week. they are not laid off yet. The matter could not have been debated yesterday because not enough was known about it yesterday to debate. Some of the wen in question saw me yesterday at dinner hour, and the Department of Labour estimates were finished before we came to yesterday's afternoon sitting. I submit that this i~ an urgent matter.

It is a matter of concern, or it should be,to the Government of Newfoundland, ~he minister has not explained what representation has meen made to the Minister of Transport nor what kind of atmosphere they have been received in. I think the whole matter should now be debated Mr. Speaker. 7414 '

Jupe 16, 1970, Tape 1264, Page 2 apb MR. SPEAKER: If there is no further comment on the request to adjourn the House or to grant permission to the hon. member for St. John's West to make this motion, I do not think I need repeat what I have said so many times when similar situations have arisen here. I do not deny that the laying off of forty-six men is a serious matter, I do not deny that we should debate the matter in this House, but I do not see that the urgency of debate is so great in this matter that all other business of the House should be suspended to deal with the matter at the present time.

I do not think, in other words, that the urgency exists, and I cannot accept such a suggestion at this particular time, that we suspend all other business of the House to deal with this one matter, although it is a serious matter, even if it is confined to a small armand a small number of people. ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the hon. the Minister of Health. Will he inform the House as to whether or not there are any negotiations going on between the Government pharmacists and his department with regards to increases in salary? MR. ROBERTS: The answer,Mr.

Speaker, is yes. I received a delegation from the pharmacists society, I think it was Friday of last week. I met with them, I have received a brief from them and that brief is being studied by my officials,prior to a discussion by me with my colleagues, and I will then be in touch with the pharmacists again. The matter is under very active consideration. HR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Community and Social Development. Could the minister tell the House whether he has sent to the bon.

John Marchand, Minister of the Department of Regional Economic Expansion at Ottawa . a copy of the 11 white paper 11 tabled in this House on June 8, which Mr. Marchand says he has never heard of,according to newspaper reports? Has a copy been sent him? AN BON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. CROSBIE: The minister says he knew nothing of this paper, he checked with 7415 '

June 16, 1970, Tape 1264, Page 3 -- apb I am not surprised that he said that Mr. Hpeaker, stnce wrote the paper, and not the minister or anyone else in Ottawa. I tabled the paper here,last Monday I think, and two or three days subsequent to that I sent a .copy off to officials ~nOttawa. Whether they received it or not I do not know,since I received no acknowledgement. MR. ROBERTS: The post office is ••••••••••••• MR. ROWE: Because, I •••.••••• ~m. CROSBIE: Was it air mail, special delivery or •••••••• MR. ROWE: Because I heard that this morning from Mr.

Marchand,that he had not received a copy of the paper, I took pains to send a copy to him personally, this morning.Mr. Speaker. AN HON. MEMBER: How about a copy of •••••.••• ~ ROWE: I will do that on zerox or on telex or something. MR. CROSBIE: The minister is determined to claim authorship of that paper, . despite what some critics have said. I have a question also, for the bon. the minister, well he is not here, so I will ask the bon. the Premier - is the statement made by Mr.

Chretien yesterday, the Minister of NorthernAffairs - Indian Affairs and Northern Development, the effect that the hold-up in the Bonne Bay Park is a fact that the Newfoundland Gov~rnment has to decide the position with respect to mineral and oil resources in the area, and that this is holding up the agreement on the park. Is that statement correct or a correct statement? MR. SMALLWOOD: I would prefer not to comment on what .the minister said without knowing first of all exactly what he said.

I would prefer not to depend on some newspaper or radio report of what he said, I have had too much experience of such reports to place too much dependence in them. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, he was on- the bon. minister was on T.V. himself, a T.V. interview. MR. SPEAKER: Is this a supplementary question? MR. CROSBIE: Did the bon. the Premier see Mr. Chretien, the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development,on television, being interview last evening, in which he made the statement that I have just quot ·ed? 7416

June 16, 1970, Tape 1264, Page 4 -- apb MR. S~~LWOOD: No Mr. Speaker. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I have another question for the hon. the Premier. Could the hon. the Premier comment on a statement by Mr. Arthur Lang, in reply to a question from Mr. Walter Carter, the P.C 1M.P. with reference to Come by Chance refinery and the wharf at Come by Chance. Is it correct that there is no agreement at this time between the Government of Canada and the Government of Newfoundland with respect to the building of the wharf and other facilities at Come by Chance~ and that there is no definite agreement as yet?

ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. CROSBIE: I did not hear the answer. MR. COLLINS: On the Order Paper of Friday June 12, question 553, I asked the Premier for certain information in connection with the proposed ~il refinery at Come by Chance. Is the Premier in a position to let u~ have some information now? MR. S}~LWOOD: I do not remember what the question was. MR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, perhaps I could read the question on the Order Paper of June 12. MR. SMALLWOOD: I will look it up. ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. CROSBIE: Mr.

Speaker, does the President of the Council realize, the Government Leader of the House, that there are still outstanding on the Order Paper well over 100 questions,unanswered , and that there are perhaps only two or three days to go for these questions to be answered? Does the Minister agree that the Government would want to answer all the questions . so that no­ bod~ could say that the Government was attempting to hold back any information from the House. or membars of the general public? AN HON. MEMBER: (I .• audible) MR. CROSBIE: The minister agrees] MR. CURTIS: I will take note of that. MR. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary question concerning Come by Chance. Is the Premier's confidence still unshaken in terms that this project will be 7417

June 16, 1970, Tape 1264, Page 5 -- apb getting off the ground? SOME HON. HEMBERS: Come off it, come off it. MR. CURTIS: Number 21. MR. HICKMAN: :MR. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the hon. the Minister of Education. Is the minister in a position to give assurance to the denominational education committee that the grant of an additional $6 million will be made available in order to permit school construction before the school year? AN HON.MEMBER:(Inaudible) MR. CROSBIE: No prompting, no prompting. MR. CURTIS: Number 21. MR. SPEAKER: Second reading of a Billl, "

An Act To Incorporate The Moravian Church In Newfoundland And Labrador .•i (58). MR. S~.ALLWOOD : Mr. Speaker, it gives me great personal pleasure that I move the second reading of this Bill. It is a Bill to incorporate the Moravian ' - Church in Newfoundland and Labrador It may come as something of a surprise to the House to learn that the Horavian Church has not been incorporated in Newfoundland and Labrador. They .have been in this Province, or what is now a Province,for the best part of 200 years, and they are indeed one of the oldest religious bodies that we have in Newfoundland and Labrador today.

They are a religious body that has always commanded and deserved great support, great respect and by a great many people a lot of affection as well. I would say that the Reverend Mr. Peacock, the chief Moravian Minister or Priest in Newfoundland, in Labrador, is o~e of the most widely known and widely respected clergymen that we have in our Province today.

I had the ~reat pleasure in London some years ago of having a visit from a number of Bishops of the Moravian Church, and I was tremendously interested in that because of the fact that the Moravian Church in Europe is the Church at which John Wesley sat and studied the whole Evangelical idea in religion. When John Wesley came back from America, from the American colonies, 7418

June 16, 1970, Tape 1264, Page 6 -- apb the ship on which he sailed was all but lost in a terrible storm, an absolutely terrible storm, in which even the sailors, the crew, cried aloud in fear. Wesley himself was fearful,for the good reason that it seemed that they were going to the bottom. There was a group of four or five men who were quite calm throughout the storm whic'. lasted for some days. When the storm subsided, Mr. Wesley went over to that group of men and disc 0 vered that they were Germans fromMoravia, that they were Moravia Missionaries who had been out to the American Colonies.

He said to the leader of them, " Sir, I could not help but notice how calm and unafraid you ~ppeared to be in the midst of that terrible storm. 11 His reply was, "yes'; That he and his colleagues were not afraid, that they felt that they were ready to meet God if they had to, and they were quite unafraid.· This of course attracted Mr.

Wesley, and when he got to London he went to the meeting place of the Moravians and it was there in that meeting place that he was conver~ed to the Bvangelical kind of religion, and in his famous journal, he entered that night; " I felt my heart strangely warmed within me, 11 'which is recording of the fact of his Bvangelical conversion.

He subsequently travelled on foot and on horseback across from London to a seaport in the Channel and then by boat across to the continent and then on foot and by horse to Moravia where he met with Count Zinzendorf the leader of the Moravians and spent several months with him in Moravia in this famous religious colony made up of several thousand religious pietists led by this German Nobleman, Count Zinzendorf. After many experiences and long conversations with the Count, he returned to London to launch his great movement which affected the history of mankind.

There are very few countries of the world that have not been affected by the work and teaching of John Wesley. So, I have had a great affection for the Moravians in Newfoundland, first, because of the connection of John Wesley with them, and second, because of the glorious work, the noble work that they have done for the people on the coast of Labrador. I do not think that there have been many organizations in Newfoundland's long history,of nearly 500 years, that have done such unselfish and such valuable work, such useful work for people who needed help as the Moravians have done on the coast, on the 7419

June 16, 1970, Tape 1264, Page 7 -- apb seashore,seashore of Labrador. They have been there now for nearly two hundred years. The first Moravian who was landed there was murdered by the Eskimos, or at any rate, he is supposed to have been murdered because he was never heard of again. I think there were two of them who were landed there by a ship out from England, with a group of Moravians, a Moravian ship, and they left two of their missionaries on shore and they were never seen again.

It was a very poor beginning for a missionary effort, but they were not the first missionaries of the Christian Faith to be murdered, to be killed by heathen people. However, the Moravians persisted Sir, and to this day they are active and energetic and doing a noble work in Labrador. The objects of the corporation are to promote, maintain and carry out the principles, doctrine, worship and congregation light of the Unitas Fraterum?, The united brethern I suppose would be the proper translation. MR. ROBERTS: Unitas Fr~traes - unity of brothers HR.

SMALLWOOD; Unitas Fraterum, as laid down by the Unity Synod, all in accordance with the constitution and spirit of the enactments of the said unit, to promote, maintain, superintend and carry on by all such means as the directors may deem fit, religious and charitable work and to unify and extend the interests of the gospel. To organize, maintain, conduct and carry on Christian Missions, missionary schools and colleges, and to erect, maintain and conduct churches, schools, colleges, hospitals, sanatoriums, dispensaries, orphanages, camps, cemeteries and homes for the aged.

To promote the spiritual welfare of all the congregations and mission fields of the world • Worl9 is right because, the Moravians have gone around the world. They are one of the greatest missionary bodies in the world.for so small, for in number so tri~ling a body, it ~s astounding what missionary work the Moravians have done and how far they have gone . and to how many countries they have reached and in how many countries they are active today. To promote the erection and purchase of houses of worship and parsonages, to purchase, acquire and hold all property and land useful and 7420

June 16, 1970, Tape 1264, Page 8 -- apb convenient for the carrying out of the purposes of the corporation and to sell and dispose thereof and to administer property, business and temple affairs of the corporation. Finally, to assist and support~by any lawful means, the spiritual, educational and social development of the people of the Province, or any class or indigenous group of such people. These are fine purposes, these are noble objectives, Hr. Speaker, with which I am sure every bon. member of this House, on both sides,must agree.

The one hon. member who sits on the other side,unfortunately, who is facing me at the moment and listening intently. and I know that his_mind is in unison with mine at this moment on this particular matter, and I will be surprised if we do not hear a word of support from him for this legislation whose second reading I am moving today with great personal pleasure, and personal satisfaction.· I move the second reading. MR. SPEAKER: It is movep and seconded that this Bill be now read a second time MR. ABBOTT: Mr.

Speaker, I am sure we,on this side of the House, do support this Bill, which one would infer has been long overdue. Nevertheless, we do know of some of the activities of the Moravian Church in Newfoundland and especially in Labrador. Way back in the early days, when some of us were very young, we did participate in the missionary education of our churches, and one part of that missionary information was that pertaining to the work of the Moravian · Missionaries in Labrador.

Not only have they been Evangelical, but they have also been very consistent in the Christian Gospel which today is social as welLas spiritual. I hav~ met some of the missionaries, I am thinking now of one, the Reverend Mr. P~acock, who has done valuable service for the people of Labrador and is c·Jntinuing, ·and not only he himself, but even some of his family are still engaged in that very noble work • . I concur with every word the bon. the Premier has said in relation to the work of the Moravian Missionaries.

I do note there, the objects of the corporation are even far beyond what they have accompli~hed up to this present time. Their horizons are far beyond what we. perceive at the present 7421

June 16, 1970, Tape 1264, Page 9 -- apb time. I have much pleasure in supporting this Bill. MR. WORNELL: Mr. Speaker, in rising to support this Bill,Sir, I do honour to my father, because, my father travelled the Northern Labrador for many years, and when I was a small boy from proba~y the age of five, I remember hearing a lot of tales told about the work of the Moravian !-fission and the Moravian Missionaries in Northern Labrador. I remember one man whose name stands out vividly in my memory, the Reverend Mr. Hettasdh. I remember seeing the Reverend Mr.

Hettasn in my father's home, I am sure that these missionaries were dedicated people,Sir. Now the hon. the Premier has a wealth 'of information on the work of the particular branch of Christianity known as the Moravian Church. There is one point that he did not bring out and I think I. am right when I say that it was they, and the work of the missionaries in Labrador in particular,who inspired Doctor Grenfell to come to Newfoundland. I think I am right ••..••• MR. ROBERTS: Dwight L. Moody converted Grenfell. MR.

WORNELL : Yes, but I think that he was inspired to come to Newfoundland by learning of the great work performed by the Moravian Missionaries in Labrador. Now Sir, I also remember seeing translations of Eskimo, translations into English in a little booklet form, which these Moravian Missionaries performed. They also performed paramedical work - did what they could to alleviate the suffering of the children and others,and wives of the Eskimos especially in childbirth and other things. In other words they were the true pioneer missionaries.Sir, of the Northern Labrador. I have much pleasure in supporting this Bill.

MR. MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, I am sure that every person in this House, on both sides,will unanimously endorse this Bill. We have listened with great attention to the Premier's discr:f .ption of the work that was done by this tremendous body of men, and I am sure that there is nothing I can add to it. I have some knowledge of the work that has been carried out. In these modern days~of courBe. Labrador is not the same as it was many years ago, when we can see this band of men going into the wilds of Labrador. Tha tramendoua work they have done 7422

June 16th, 1970 Tape 1265 JM - 1 MR. MURPHY: in their chosen vocation of catering to the residents of the remote area of that time. So, Mr. Speaker, I will say that we on this side heartily endorse the second reading of this Bill. MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, in supporting this Bill I just want to add a few words. I have known the Moravian Mission all down throu~h the years since 1934 and,as a matter of fact.the present superintendent of the Moravian Mission, Rev. F.W. Peacock, who is now stationed at Happy Valley, he and I went to the Coast about the same time.

I recall when he came over as a teacher and then when he went back to England and brought his wife back with him,and that is more than thirty years ago. Sir, the work of the Moravian Mission in Labrador is one unparalleled in any religious organization. As a matter of interest, Mr. Speaker, the Moravian Church were the first independent Protestant Church, away back in 1457. It was 1752 when they came to Labrador and,as you know. Labrador then was in its primative state and they had to build from scratch to provide ,not only spi~itual guidance for the Eskimo but trading and medical. It is worthy of interest, Mr.

Speaker, that the Moravian's in Northern Labrador were not only preachers, they were doctors, I knew the superintendent, Rev. Haddash, who was one of the older superintendents of the Mission. I knew him to amputate a limb, a leg or an arm, whenever an accident occurred, of course, and there were no medical men to go to except the Moravian's them­ selves, the Moravian superintendent. They were faced with the problem of schools and they were faced with the problem too of having to learn the Eskimo language,which was a terrific job in itself.

But, Sir, all down through the years, as a matter of fact~! do not know what this Province would have done without the services of the Moravians in the early years - AN RON. MEMBER: M2fbe the Eskimos would have become extinct. MR. WINDSOR: Absolutely. But, Sir, when we say that about the Moravians we must not overlook the fact too that we have in Northern Labrador the Indian population who were provided with spiritual guidance by the Roman Catholic Church and we had a dear christian gentleman in the name of Father O'Brien 7423

June 16th, 1970 Tape 1265 JM - 2 MR. WINDSOR: and Father O'Brien used to travel North for years. We had many a many pleasant evening with Father O'Brien down around David's Inlet and perhaps in a harbour trying to get there. Father O'Brien now, I think, is being promoted to a Monseigneur but I am sure his work 'will always be remembered among the Indians in Northern Labrador. But, Sir, the Moravians are a r,roup of people, a devoted group of people,who came there at great sacrifice . .

Without delaying the second reading of this Bill, Sir, I would say they are worthy of the highest praise and we should thank God that we have such men and organizations existing in our civilized world today. MR. ROWE(F.W.): Mr. Chairman, just one word on this. I support this Bill with the very greatest enthusiasm and sympathy.

My first entry into public life was in Labrador and it was partly at the invi~ation of the then superin- tendent, of the present superintendent indeed and of the heads of other churches there that the Premier approached me at that time and ask me whether I would run in that district as his representative. This fact should be recorded for history~ Two hundred years ago the Eskimos of Labrador were among the most uncivilized and barbarous people on the face of this earth.

Murder and every other conceiveable crime,especially warfare between the Eskimos and the Indians and between the Eskimos and the white people,were the order of the day. This is why,as the ' Premier saidJthe first missionaries put there were actually killed by the Eskimos. The fact is that within a hundred years or so these same Eskimos,due entirely to the efforts of the Moravian Church 1 had become one of the practicable and one of the most essentially civilized people on the face of this earth. There is no community any where on earth, Mr.

Speaker, where you have more honesty, more outright decency, a more lawabiding group of people than you find among ne Eskimos of Northern Labrado~and that is entirely due to the efforts of the Moravians. Finally let me say this, fhe member for Labrador North,who is also the Minister of Labrador Affairs,has referred to it. Without the efforts of the Moravian Church, the Roman Catholic Church and the Grenfell Mission the 7424

.. June 16th, 1970 Tape 1265 JH - 3 MR. ROWE: indigenous peoples of L~brador, the two ·Indian tribes and the Eskimos,would have disappeared from the face of the earth in the same way as the Beothucks. ~he indigenous people of Newfoundland, the Beothuck Indians, disappeared from the Island of Newfoundland and became extinct to the earth. MR. CHAIRMAN: M~ved and seconded that this Bill be now read a second time. If the hon. Minister speaks now he closes the debate. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, I will not delay the House but I want to say three things very briefly.

In the first place that the Moravian Missionaries in this Province today are all of them, I thin~. English not German. 411 or nearly all of them are English and have been mainly so for a good many years past. The earliest Moravian Missionaries were German, some of them or most of them at any rate. The second thing I wanted to say is something that was touched on by the Minister for Labrador Affairs namely that the Moravian Missionaries of Labrador have to a very large extent been medical missionaries.

Th~v carried on spiritual work but they were also medical doctors or if they were not fully qualified medical doctors they had been given a course of medical instruction which certainly qualified them far more than were the Eskimo people among whom they lived. The third thing I wanted to say is this that one of the first problems that confronted this Government when we took office was the fact that earlier Governments had given to the Moravians in Labrador a vast tract of land, a vast tract running, I think,if my memory serves me properly, running I think to some thousands of square miles.

It appeared to be a pretty solid claim, a pretty soli.d right established many years ago, lawfully, legally. : The Government entered into negotiations with the Moravians for the recovery of that land and in this we succeeded and the Moravians were very decent about it, very accommodat­ ing and very realistic and saw that the time had come indeed for them to pass back the rights that they had been given many years before by the proper authorities of Newfoundland. I greatly appreciate the unanimous support the Bill has received from both sides of the House and I do commend it to the attention of the House.

On motion, Bill read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee 7425

.. June 16th, 1970 Tape 1265 Jl1 - 4 of the whole House presently by leave. MR. CURTIS: Numbers 3,5,6,7,8, and 21, Committee. COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE: A Bill, "An Act To Amend The Schools Act, 1969." On motion Sections 1 - 9 carried. MR. ROWE: Mr. Chairman, I should explain to the Committee here that we are going to recommend an amendment here and a brief word about the background of it. The amendment deals with the length of the school year.

Last year, over a year ago, a number of discussions took place, between the churches, the NTA and the Department of Education,on the matter of the school year and there was unanimous agreement that,inasmuch as our school year was one of the shortest in Canada that we should lengthen it somewhat, to bring it up at least to what most of the other Provinces were. This was incorporated in the Legislation last year,in the new schools Act passed last year.

Now the NTA, as I said, approved that in principle but because their conference, their annual convention, did not take place until Easter there was no way for them to test the complete reaction of all the 6,000 teachers in Newfoundland. Subsequently.at their convention.a resolution was adopted which in effect said this; That inasmuch as teachers are docked on a per diem basis if they fail to teach all the days of the school year that they felt that any lengthening of the school year should be done in conjunction with discussions of teachers remuneration.

Now,as I said,this came to us afterwards last year and came to us again several times during the year and because the Government have committed itself to a revision of teachers salaries scales,and indeed discussions have already started on that, the Government decided to go along with the formal request made by the NTA. I had this in a letter from the President.following meetings of the executive,and that is that we defer the extension of the sch<,ol year and have it considered at the same time as we are considering teachers salaries scales.

This is not an unreasonable request and this will not mean any loss of actual teaching time at all in the classroom. But it does mean, in this amendment, that I am going to ask my colleague to move in a moment that we will be holding the school year to the length that it has 7426

J'me 16th, 1970 Tape 12n5 JM - 5 Mlt. ROWE: been all along, the actual length that it has been all year round. In order to do that we must repeal certain things we did last year and we must tnsert other things to validate the instructions we have already ~iven school boards, we could not wait, we have already givert school boards instructions on this. At least we have intimated to school boards what we intended to recommend. Accordingly I am going to ask my colleague, the Minister of Public Works, if he would move that Section (10) be amended, ln accordance with this.

I have copies of this if anybody would like to have a look at the copies of it. If I may suggest, Mr. Chairman, this amendment is short and perhaps it would be the simplest thing if the bon. Minister were to read out what it says there and when we come to Section (21) I will distribute copies of that ahead of time for anybody who wishes to see it. MR. CHALKER: Mr. Chairman, section (10), sections (53) and (54) of the said Act are repealed and the following substituted therefor Section (53).

"F~r the purpose of computing a salary a school year shall consist of such a number of school days within th~ period referred to in paragraph (d)(

d) of section (2) that the Lieutenant-Governor in Council after consultation with the General Advisory Committee may by order prescribe: I so move. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall the amendment carry? Carried. Shall the

section as amended carry? carried. Shall (11) carry? Carried. Shall (12) carry? Carried. Shall (13) carry? MR. WELLS: On 13(2), if,for example when the new text comes out this year it would be of great use to students in grade (11) or any grade for that matter. Under this clause,if it were strictly applied and interpreted ,it could not be used for another year, it could not even be used as an additional, not the main~ext for the course or anything like that, It could not be used for at least another year even as an additional text

whereas such other text books being hereinafter ref~rred to in this

section as "alternative text books",shall, in writing, request the Minister's approval therefor at least one year before the date on which it is proposed to commence use of such alternative text. Now I do not mind the basic prescribed text, alright that takes time, but as an additional or alternate text to be used for additional study 7427

June 16th, 1970 Tape 1265 JM - 6 MR. WELLS: why should it take a year, why should there be a years notice, how can that be justified? Surely somebody in authority can assess the thing and let us know. MR. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I can well understand the hon. member's feelings on that at first look at it. Actually it is put in there for practical purposes for this reason that the Department of Education is responsible for supplying the text books and in order to do that normally you would need to know a year ahead what text books you have to order from the publisher. MR. WELLS: That makes eminent sense. MR. RO\vE: Right but the second

part is this, there is nothing at all, if in the meantime a school board, say the board in Corner Brook, decided that they wanted to use a book in their school there and suppose they had the copies of it we can authorize them immediately to use it as supplementary text books. MR. WELLS: How can you do it under sub-section (2)? MR. ROWE: \~ell, I do not know but it has been done and could be done. MR. WELLS: It starts out by reading, "Any School Board which wishes to use, - MR. ROWE: Well, there is a technicality there.

You see sub-section (2) uses the word text books and a text book is something which has been prescribed but there is nothing to prevent a Board or a school from using supplementary material and that supplementary material could in effect be a text book. I can say this; that there is no danger at all under this. There has not been in the past - MR. WELLS: That books would be able to be used - MR. ROWE: That a book would be held up for a full twelve months due to that technicality.

It simply means that if a school in Grand Falls, Corner Brook, Gander or any school decided well, look we are going to get some on our own. If we are going to get them for them we have to have a years notice for the very simpte practical thing that that is approximately the amount of time that it takes from the time we get a request or make a decision that a book is going to be used unti" such time as you can get the publisher to publish it and make the supplies available. This is why we need the years notice there.

But if some Board wish to use, it is being done every day, if some Board wishes to use a book there is no problem at all. MR. CHAIRMAN: (13) carried. Shall (14) carry? 7428

June 16th , 1970 Tape 1265 JM- 7 MR. CROSBIF.: On (14), Mr. Chairman, I just want to say that I certainly support this particular

section and in fact most of the amendments now being presented are a great advance~ I believe, open meetings of School Boards and the other changes the Minister introduced, election of School Board members. Since I did not speak em the second reading I just want to say that I support all this and I think it is a great step forward. .1\ MR. CltAIRMAN: (14) carried. Shall (15) carry? Carried. Shall (16) carry? Carried. Shall (17) carry? Carried. Shall (18) carry? Carried. Shall (19) carry? MR. WELLS: Mr. Chairman, we are going through a bit fas·t here and I am trying to follow my sketchy notes that I have !llade here. On section (19), this 7429

,June 16th. 1970 Tape 1266 PK - 1 MR. 'i.'ELLS: relates to the use for which assessments may be used. Now the committee and anybody who else is concerned about it will recall that a couple of years ago all school assessments were abolished, and the one percent was added to the social security assessment to act as a substitute, and there would be no further school assessment - MR. HICK}~N: What

section are we on, health? MR. WELLS: This was subsequently watered down to permit assessments for capital construction purposes. ~low under Sub-section II of Clause 19 of this Bill, l-.'hich purports to amend or will amend

Section 97 of the Act. It says, "regulations, made under Sub-section I, shall not prescribe any purposes for which monies raised by means of assessment imposed under

Section 97 shall be applied,which is not 14. !hen it lists the following: Financing of construction or enlargement of existing schools. Provision of salaries for special teachers for whom ordinary salaries are not provided···or the augmentation of salaries where sufficient salaries are not provided by the Public Funds''.

Well it is a good thinp, to have a board able to raise funds and p,et the kind of specialized teachers that it wants, but all in all,taking this together with sub-section 3, which goes on to read, and the latter part of it, "It may be applied to liquidate indebtness incurred in respect of of any~the matters in paragraph A.

Then sub-section 3 goes on to say, notwithstanding sub-section 2, '"the minister,where bee is satisfied that exceptional circumstances exist, which,in his opinion, was the making of such an order, may make an order authorizing the expenditure really for nearly any purpose, and prescribing the conditions under which monies may be spent''. Well this opens up the whole thing again. So why go through this whole cumbersome procedure? ~y do we not just go back to the state where 7430

June 16th. 1970 Tape 1266 PK - 2 MR. WELLS: we were and have school assessments and let local areas decide . what they want to do. Certain local areas have school tax assessment. There are school tax areas throughout the Province. And,as nearly as I know,that is not limited tJ capital construction, the monies raised by the school tax assessment. These are not limited to capital construction, they are given to the school board proportionally to their student population in the area. The money is divided up on that basts. But you know all of this makes this abolition of school assessment ridiculous.

Why do we not just forget it, and say, "okay, local areas, local school boards can place an assessment and so on", and forget all this circumlocution that we are providing for here, which really means nothing, because we are back to school assessments for general purposes in any case where the minister wishes to issue a permit under Sub-section 3. 1-iR. RmVE, F.W. Hr. _Chairman, two points to be made here, this

Section 19, (perhaps I should have had explained it when it was called) conforms and complements the school tax legislation that this House passed here earlier in this present session. !Ioney collected by school tax authorities, that money is under the same restrictions as outlined under

Section 19 here. That is one point, I would say. The other point is, (I explained this before, We debated it at some length) the feeling is, even it is only an interim measure,that there should not be a bed of Procrustes- one hundred percent bed of Procrustes (if I might mix up rny metaphors) that there must be som~ discretion because of the very special circumstances that _can take place in the operation of the school board, especially the bigger one. The third thing I would say is that, and believe the committee will hear this with some satisfaction.

I can only say generally, we are, Newfoundland is feeling a sway in this whole matter of educational financing. And, I believe, that there is a movement underfoot right now among the boards, I believe there is a movement to explore the possibilities of having a single tax authority for the Province of Newfoundland. 7431

June 16th. 1970 Tape 1266 PK - 3 MR. HICK}~: A Provincial Tax Authority? MR. ROWE, F. W. Yes, therr_ is a movement underfoot - ~~. WELLS: Is this likely to come into the Consolidated Revenue Fund and be administered by the Government •.•••• MR. ROWE, F.W. Nothing has ever come to us at all, this is a delicate matter, a very difficult one, it is a very complic .ated one, but it is being approached, and the very fact that we have a joint - only the other day we had, as the committee knows, a joint representation from all the churches in the matter of capital,$6 million that my hon. friend referred to.

He might have noticed, I do not know. if he recalled signatories to that where the Lord Bishop of Newfoundland, signing it as Chairman of the Protestant Inte~rated Committee for three churches. The Archbishop signed it, as Chairman of the Roman Catholic Integrated Committee, not a board. But you also had .Mr. Rowe of Corner Brook, George Rowe,signing it, as Chairman of the Association of Amalgamated School Boards. You also had Justice Higgins signing it, as Chairman of the Association of Roman Catholic School Boards.

And you had Hr. (who is the other signatory into it) Pastor Bursey, of cou~se, as head of the Pe~tecostal, but not as the Superintendent of the Pentecostal Church,but signing it as Chairman of the Pentecostal Board of Education. In other words, you have the joint effort there, you might say a Joint liberation there, and this same thing, I think, is working now in respect of· operating cost of education.

And I would not be surprised if within the next twelve months, I do not know, nobody has told me this, but I would not be surprised if within the next twelve months. we do not get recommendations from these bodies, individually or collectively, and I suspect collectively, recommending certain steps in respect of perhaps a general education tax for the Province, or a general Provincial 7432

June 16th. 1970 Tape 1266 PK - 4 HR. ROWE, F.\~. Tax Authority. MR. 'WELLS: Okay when we 1.ave a unified system, where it is not broken down ••••. MR. ROWE, F.W. These are certain complications in it. But you might say that this discretionary~· power. given the minister here is in the nature of an interim measure. Certainly it is something that would permit some discretionary emergency use of that authority there.

I do not anticipate any abuse of it, as I explained at the beginning, certainly as long as I am minister, and I am sure whoever my successor is, he will follow the same practice, he would never thin~ of exercising that authority without having consulted with a number of advisors on it. MR. CROSBIE: This ~ectionlaas to do with raising the money for school purposes through the school assessment. And the minister says that he hopes that he will use his discretion very sparingly to allow the school assessment fees to be used for other than capital purposes.

HO\Y'ever, I would prophesy ·that the minister may have to use his discretion to allow school fees and school assessments to be used for other than capital purposes, if what the various school boards in the Province are saying is in fact the case. And we saw in the paper just last week, I think it was, that the school boards in the Springdale area had gotten together and felt that they could not operate this year on the operating money they _were going to get fr~m Government of Newfoundland.

I had a letter myself from Brother Molloy of Brother Rice High School,after we had a debate here in the House about the financial problems in education. And he sent me a copy of the school budget for the Brother Rice High School. get Brother Riae High haye 780 students who will~$51.50, the school will get $51.50 per student for this year,based on the present Government formula for $40,170, and after deducting their expenses for school loan interest, administration and school bus ,leaves them $23,000, and a.fter they take 7 4 3 3 l. I

June 16th. 1970 Tape 1266 PK- $ ~m. CROSBIE: out maintenan~e ~nd repairs, light, heat, and cleaning and so on. The whole amount is used up, so they have got $~900 left out of their budget for teaching supplies and aids, music, library, science, athletics, audio-visual and general equipment, just $~900 left after they meet the essentials. AN HON. ME~ffiER: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: This is Brother Rice High School. And Brother Holloy sent me a candy bar, it is a candy bar that the school are using to collect money.

He says, "the enclosed candy bar's message speaks for itself, and it is a further reflection of our financial crisis. But I donate the bar to you, so that you may nibble chocolate while you dig~st this tragic implica ,tion of our s.chool budget for 1970-71. You will no doubt, Sir, note that our budget at best is really bare bones. But before we can even give a thought to budgeting for programs we have already over-drawn", Now this is just Brother Rice High School. There are dozens of other high schools in the same position around the Province.

The amount there received from the Government, based at $51.50 per pupil,is just not enough to allow them money for the essentials - $9,009 in that high school, which has" 780 students,to meet teaching supplies and aids, that is all they have left, $2500, $2,000 for music, $400 for the library, $500 for science, $2000.for athletics for 780 students, $500 for audio-visual, and $2000 for general equipment. And other school boards will confirm the same kind of thing. So I would suspect, Mr. Chairman, that the minister is going to be under heavy pressure to use his discretion under this

section to allow them to collect assessment fees for other than construction and salaries for special teachers. In other words for just general operating purposes - unless the grant is going to be increased. 7434

Jtme 16th, 1970 Tape 1266 PK- f) ~m. ROWE, F.W. Perhaps before I answer that the hon. member for Burin wouid like to say somethin~. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Chairman, what I would like to say is this, I believe that this

section is a very essential

section particularly at this time, - because practically every school board of the Province · is having real problems in implementing the programs that they would like to see implemented in their schools. If we do not confer on the minister the right to give the local authority and the local populace the opportunity to bring in these programs, if they so desire, and if they are capable of paying for them, and if they want to pay for them. then obviously these students are going to suffer.

Right now as I understand it that the total grants to schools are based on a per pupil bases 1 And what I would like to see is something thrown into it for the programs.' If the high - school or the School Board for Western Newfoundland can show to the Minister of Education and demonstrate to the Minister of Education that they need a program, a reading program in Corner Brook;and that they have the necessary tax base to raise that money ,either by way of taxes or assessment oi: ... whatever the approach might be then I think it would be nothin _g short of criminal , if that board would be refuse the right to bring that program into operation simply because all the grants are fixed on a per student bases.

And all of this, as was said during the debate on this Act last year when it was before the House, and indeed going back to the debate when there was an attempt to abolish school _ fees and replace it with assess~ents. that this was a very gingerly approach, 9ut at least it is an approach in the right direction, I believe, to an implementation to some extent of the foundation program in our educational s1stem •. Because it is a fact, Mr.

Chairman, you can be theoretical as you like, the simple fact is that the cost of educating.students or pupils anywhere in Canada varies very considerably from one area to the next. And it is my understanding that you get the reverse from industry. In industry 7435

June 16th. 1970 Tape 1266 PK - ' }~. HIC~· ~N: if you manufacture 20,000 cars and you suddenly increase it to 30,000 the per unit cost decreases. If you increase the number of pupils in a city or a town or in an area from 20,000 to 30,000 the per pupil cost increases ratrer than decreases. And the only way you are going to have meaningful programs in the areas where the need is obvious is to give some latitude to the local authorities and the local school boards to collect some money.

The day of the bun suppers and the bingo parties and the garden parties and all of that sort of thing as a method to raising money for education pow is about as archaic as the wheelbarrow, and certainly does not go anywhere close to meeting any of the additional needs that school boards require. And I am sure the minister or the has he has to have a great deal of sympathy with~position the school boards find themselves in today, ~hey are sort of the buffer between the Department of Educa~ion and the parents.

And they are desperately trying - and they are all volunteers desperately -trying to find sufficient funds to bring in the programs that parents now want for their schools. And, I believe= that parents are prepared to pay for it. If you can demonstrate to them - number one, that the programs are required, and secondly that you can put meaningful programs into these schools, As I read ~his

section 19, this will enable the minister,whenever he feels that this is necessary and that the funds are available without causing undue hardship, to permit this type of expenditures by school boards. ~nd personally I am all for it. MR. ROWE, F.W. Mr. Chairman, I am of course in agreement in principle with the sentiments e~ressed by both bon. members who have just spoken, the member for St. John's West and the member for Burin. There are just two points to be made there. There is a danger that in quoting the figures, as did the hon. member for St.

John's West,of a school - the impression might get abroad that the Government makes the grant of $51.50 per student to the school. The Government does not do it. And one of the reasons 7436

June 16th. 1970 Tape 1266 PK - I z.tR. RotolE, F .H. why precisely th£t is not ~one, is for a point just brought out by the hon. m•"mber for Burin, mainly that the needs of schools differ so much. So while it could be argued and has been argued that this grant of $51.50 is not enough in total not enough and there is a lot of validity for that, and I am sure a lot of people will agree with that, ~evertheless, boards do have some discretionary power in that the grant is made to the boards on the basis of $51.50 for every child under its jurisdiction. Now what the board does after that,with it,is its own business.

It may give to one school where the need is greater, it may give theoretically on the basis of $70.00 per pupil, and on the basis of other school $40.00 per pupil, as the member for Burin just pointed out, needs ~an differ so~ewhat. Now in the case of most urban schools there is not that great difference between the needs of schools, so I would think that most school boards in urban areas are apportioning their money, but it is they who apportion it to the school on the strict $51.50 basis. And I presume they this is what have done - I judged from those figures given by the hon. member from Burin.

And I might ·say I also received a .copy of those same figures. I judge that is being done by the Roman Catholic School Board. But the point I want to make is that it is up to the Roman Catholic School Board whether they do that or not. Some other school board having _in the one hand a very highly sophiscated school with all kinds of appliances and specialist and so on, could very well use $51.50 for are that school, and some other school where the needs 1 of a less sophiscated nature could very well use a smaller grant, a smaller amount.

There is one which other point to be made.is this; both bon. gentlemen are of course correct in that this is an attempt to relieve some of the rigidity that was in the previous legislation. But now the minister is protected in part and 7437

June 16th. 1970 Tape 1266 ~m. RO\iE, F.W. his advisers under

Section XII of the Schools Act, of the parent Act,

Section XIi, Sub-section j, which says that each board must submit at the end of the school year a financial statement - well here are the exact words. "Submit to the minister at the end of each school year a detailed statement of its accounts audited by a firm of certified or chartered accountants and in such form as may from time to time be prescribed by the minister and furnish a copy of such statement to the appropriate education committee where there is such an education committee.- In other words you mi~ht say; through their church superiors as well.

Now this would be a great guide to any minister in trying to decide whether or not a genuine emergency or a genuine need for his discre~ionary power.is present. The fact that you get such an audited statement, and that statement could be analyzed and assessed by the advisers to the minister on this matter. This I suggest finally is the beginning, Mr. Chairman, there is no doubt in my mind at all, and I do not think there is any doubt in the mind of any of us, that the whole problem of financing education is one that we have to tackle even with greater emphasis than we have in the past.

And at t~is moment, the very fact of last week, as I have said, this committee met with the Government, not with the Premier, not with the Minister of Education, but with the Government and sat down there and for a full hour, with all the time _that was available prior to this meeting, for a full hour, an hour and a quarter in fact discussed this problem of capital education.

And I can say that the matter of operational expenses of schools is one that is concerning every educator in Newfoundland,at our level,including the Department of Education and including the Government itself. \Je are up against, of course, the overall problem of the availability of money - the availability of money, it is a simple thing. 7438

June 16th. 1970 Tape 1266 PK - 1~ MR. ROWE, F.~. I have a r nquest on my des ~ and I have had it from the N.T;A. to reduce the rat1o from thirty-five to thirty that is a ratio of pupils per teacher, from thirty-five to thirty. I received a similar request, I think, it was from the Vanier School, P.T.A., I think it was. Anyway it is immaterial, this request comes in. Such a simple thing as that, such a simple thing as reducing the ratio from thirty-five to thirty, · would cost us,overnight, over $3 million extra money.

And then when you add to that in any one year, the fact that you have to find $3 million extra to look after increments of teachers salaries and additional teachers not raises but increments,this is a $6 million addition right there. Well then if in any one year you have in that same year, you have to bring ~n revised payment scales for teachers that would cost -well, it would cost almost anything. But certainly anything realistic is going to cost a good many millions of dollars.

You cannot,even at a ten percent basis, on a ten percent basis, as ours is this year, your present bill is between $35 million and $36 million, even ten percent it will cost you between $3.5 million and $4 million. And so this whole problem is a pretty serious one, make no mistake about that. It is concerning every province in Canada, We have to try and work out something which will do something to ease it, and I believe, I believe that over the next year or two that there will be progress made in that. MR. HICKMAN: Mr.

Ch~irman. has the bon. minister read a'.document prepared by Professor Llewellyn Parsons ~hich is on the financing of education. But there are certain findings ·in it, MY concern and my criticism,obviously there is no easy answer to the financing of education in any province, and I ~ould say that it is probably even more aggravated in this Province. But I think what the people are resenting today is that we are trying to paint a rosier picture than we are entitled to paint. And, I think, there 7439

Jane 16.th. 1970 Tape 1266 PK- ll HR. HICKHAN: are certain facts. And if you start off with these facts and then say, what if anytning can we do about it~ Here are four findings that are contained in the Llewellyn Parsons Report. MR. ROBERTS: Inaudible. HR. HICKNAN: Yes, a comparison of educational expenses, these facts (

a) referrirg to Newfoundland, the Provincial expenditure on education as a precentag~ of the total Provincial Government Expenditure is the lowest of all the provinces of Canada. (

b) The per capita expenditure on elementary and secondary education is roughly fifty percent of the Canadian average. (

c) A relative effort as measured by expenditure for pupil ability to pay is low compared with that of the other Canadian provinces. And (

d) Expenditure~ per pupil on equipment and materials compares unfavourly with such expenditures in most Canadian provinces. Now, Mr. Chairman, maybe we can do nothing about it. Maybe the simple fact is that we cannot lay our hands on other nickle BS far as - when I talk about "we" I mean Government. AN HON, MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. HICK}~: But I had some other figures that were furnished to me by the NTA. MR. ROWE, F.W.: Inaudible. MR. HICKMAN: right, but I had some other figures, I do not know if I still have them, which were furnished to me by the Newfoundland Teachers Association. MR. ROBERTS: Inaudible. MR.

HICKMAN: Yes, but the thing that will not wash today with parents is the type of statement that we found in the Budget Speech, when we started to compare the percentage of expenditure on education with British Columbia and.Ontario. And obviously left the impression that we 7440

June 16th. 1970 Tape 1266 PK - 1~ MR. HICKMAN: were putting these provinces ~n the shade. And that is the thing I say is wrong, bec ·.1use apart from the fact that it is no longer acceptable to our people, it creates a false impression, as to what the actual situation is, and if we say to the people of Newfoundland. "look this is all the Province can raise by way of direct taxation, i.f you want more, yo.u will have •••. • .AN HON. MEHBER: Inaudible. MR. HlCKMAN: Thirty-nine - all 7441

June 16, 1970 Tape #1267 Page 1 JW RON. E. ROBERTS (Minister of Health): it is infinitely less. We are spending more. Now in dollars, AN HON. MEMBER: The Budget Speech does not say this"- MR. ROBERTS: No, and the Budget Speech does not say a lot of other things. It went on for two hours anyway: MR. HICKMAN: I know, but just listen - what implication can you draw from this? The rich Province of British Columbia is spending on education two point eight percent of its gross provincial product.

That is to say, the amount of spending on education in that great 'Province is just under three percent of the total value of all the goods and services produced there. In Ontario they spend three point eight GPP on education. In Newfoundland, this Government are spending on ·education seven point nine percent,uractically eight percent of the Province's gross provincial product. MR. ROBERTS: It just shows that relatively speaking the people of Newfoundland - it is like the "widow's mite." MR.

HICKMAN: No, the hon. minister knows - what I say is that if the Budget Speech had been realistic , it would have gone on and said . the provincial expenditure on education ,as the percent of the total provinci~l government expenditure, is the lowest of all Province's in Canada. MR. ROBERTS: That is not correct, because you know you are not comparing likes and likes. It is like welfare - MR. HICKMAN: No, no. Take a look at Prince Edward Island. Total amount of provincial expenditure on elementary secondary education per pupil in average daily attendance. MR. ROBERTS: MR. HICKMAN: And we are the lowest.

We are the lowest. AN BON. MEMBER: Dominion Bureau of Statistics. MR. HICKMAN: No, this is not the Dominion Bureau of Statistics. This was the study that was done by the Atlantic Development Board. HR. ROBERTS: There are two important points. One is that . relatively speaking, with what we have we are doing MR.. HICKMAN+ Anyway, all I would suggest is this. You know and I do not 7442

June 16, 1970 Tape /f1267 Page 2 want it to be taken in a critical sense at all. There is no one in this House - I am sure,if any hon. member had the answer to the adequate financing of education, he would be very quick to give it and would give it to this House. But what I do object to is this incessant reference in comparison to what we had '49 to what •1e have in '70, without really looking at what - the only criteria today is what is required in 1970, and this does one or two things. One is, it annoys educators.

It annoys school boards and it annoys parents, and secondly, it gives Newfoundlanders a false impression that everything is rosy in the garden when the opposite is the truth. MR. ROWE (F. W.): Mr. Chairman, before my hon. friend does that. There is just one word of explanation. In order to validate wRat we have done, we have to delete

section 10 and make amendments there. And now, the Department of Justice is prepared for the validation under

section 21, and I have circulated this. I am not going to attempt to explain all the details everybody knows what it means. It means that the school year remains the same as it was, has been for many years • . And as I said before, we have to validate what we did ultra vires of the Act last year. And this will permit us then to carry on our negotiations with the teachers on the basis of salaries versus time actually spent in teaching. My colleague, the Minister of Health - if he will be kin~ enough! MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Chairman, I will move it as it is bei?g distributed to the Committee - unless the Committee wish, I will forebear from reading it - Carried. Motion, that the committee repot having passed the bill,""An Act to Amend the School Tax Act, 1969", with some amendment, carried: MR COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order: I did not rise before because I did not want to embarrass an official of the city in the House. Is it in accordance with our rules to have persons 1 other than members holding seats,to sit in this House, other than committee stage on estimates. HR CHAIRMAN: Not on any other business, I do not think.

Estimates only? MR MURPHY: Is this legal now then, all the work we have done? Do we go all over it again? Committee of the Whole on Bill,"An Act Further to Amend the Companies Act": 7443

June 16, 1970 Tape fl1267 Page 3 JW Bill

(29) This Act may be cited as the

Summary Jurisdiction Amendment Act, 1970. MR. CLYDE WELLS: Mr. Chairman, . on Clause (2). This is from a point of view of administration. It says, "subject to this Section, when ever any person dies as a result of," -- and then it lists all of the things. How does anybody know that it as a result of negligence until there has been an investigation carried out? I mean that is what is to be determined, of violence - well I guess you could determine that, or misadventure. But surely it has to be something that is suspected negligence, or suspected misconduct, or suspected malpractice.

This is what the enquiry is about to determine whether or not the death was as a result of negligence or misconduct or malpractice. So if that is the standard before which an enquiry can be set up, it is not very meaningful. I would suggest, and the Minister of Justice might consider this, or might let it stand and refer the matter further to his officials you cannot very well just say let negligence lie. It has to be suspected negligence or apparently. MR. CROSBIE: Whenever any person dies "apparently as a result." MR. WELLS: Yes, dies "apparently as a result." Right. HON. L. R.

CURTIS (Minister of Justice): After the word "any person dies apparently." Yes, that is right. on MR. WELLS: Now Mr. Chairman, before we go,and carry it - Subsection (2) I do not know whether this change has been made or not, but I would suggest that at the end of Subsection (2) the full stop or full point, as we may wish to call it, be changed to a comma, and we add something like, "but he may in his discretion hold an enquiry." The reason for this - MR. CURTIS: I think you will find this is covered in other Sections. Mi. WELLS: I ag ' ~e that ke may already do it. It is clear.

It is not clear, but I agree that on a strict legal

interpretation he may hold an enquiry. Subsection (2) does not bar: from holding an enquiry, where the director of public prosecutions expresses the opinion that it is not necessary. He can still hold that, In my opinion, it does not bar him, but 7444

June 16, 1970 Tape 1/1267 Page 4 Jl~ I think the way that it is worded, it should be made quite clear. A magistrate is not required -well that does not mean that he cannot. It just means he is not required. MR. CURTIS: I think by (6) he can go ahead with the enquiry. MR. W~LLS: No, that is just for the e··clusion - Subsection (6) just relates to the exclusion of the general public.That is required. Then Subsection(2) goes on to say it is not required - MR. CURTIS: It is not required, but he may do it. MR. WELLS: I agree. I agree. But what I am saying is that the general

interpretation that would likely be placed on that, particularly by lay magistrates, is that when the D.P.P. says "no", that is it. So I feel that, for greater certainties, should be added, but the Committee may decide not to. It is not essential. The chief says it is not essentJal. I think he is talking about the comment rather -my comments rather than the amendment. In any event, Mr. Chairman, there is a further one in sub-Section 6. "An inquiry conducted under this

section may in the discretion of the magistrate or justice conducting it be held in part, that is all right. Any persons other than those required to be present by law may be excluded. MR. CROSBIE: Required or permitted. MR. WELLS: Now, 1 think, it should be required or permitted nr P~tftlcd perhaps. 1 think it should read, "Otlter than those required or entitled to be present by law". AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. WELLS: I think it should read either, I do not know if entitled is a better word than permitted. AN HON. MEMBER: Yes. MR. WELLS: Entitl~d, I think. Required or entitled to be present by law.

So I would move that amendment. MR. CURTIS~ That is all right. I agree. MR. ROBERTS: inquired into, it is not inquired into •••••• inquirY or whatever you call them. MR. WELLS: That is right. But he should be entitled to be there. Do 7445

June 16th. 1970 Tape 1267 PK - 5 MR. WELLS: you want to put that amendment first, Mr. Chairman, or do you want - MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall the amendment carry? On Motion Amendment carried. MR. WELLS: Well that is all on Clause II. MR. CURTIS: Clause II as amended. On Motion Clause II and Clause Ill carried. __ _:;_:::_ MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall Clause 'IV carry? MR. WELLS: Mr. Chairman, I menttoned this when this Bill came up on second reading, that I think these penalities provided for in Clause IV are much to severe. MR. CURTIS: What would you suggest? MR.

WELLS: For the general nature of the Act, what is proposed at the moment. I want to point out to the committee, the Minister of Justice, of course realizes what this is, but I would like to spell it out for the committee in just a couple of minutes that this is a general provision, it is a catch- all penalty, where there is no specific penalty provided, for anybody con- travening the law,without there being a specific penalty provided, this penalty would come into force.

And what we have proposed is a fine not exceeding $500 - now admittedly that could be $1, the magistrate could apply a fine of $1 or in default to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months. ~ CURTIS: It might be one day. MR. WELLS: And it might be one day. But I think it is too broad, too heavy a fine for a general provision. Any provision of any statute that is serious enough to warrant that kind of a penalty has a specific penalty a provided. I would suggest, Mr. Chairman, to~fine not exceeding $100, and imprisonment not exceeding thrity days. ~. CURTIS: I agree. MR. WELLS: I make that motion, Mr.

Chairman. 7446

June 16th. 19 70 Tape 1267 MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall the amendment carry? MR. CURTIS: Of course rem~~ber the court could always, Mr. Chairman, reduce it. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall the Clause as amended carry? MR. CURTIS: There is no clause there at all now. PK - 6 MR. WELLS: No, that is right there is no clause. There are clauses in individual acts. MR. ROBERTS: There is one in the Liquor Act. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall Clause V carry? Carried. Shall I report the Bill with some amendment? MR. CURTIS: No. 7. MR. CHAIRMAN: Bill N_!J. 30.

On motion, Bill No. 30, "An Act To Repeal The Trade Union (Emergency Provisions) Act, 1959, without amendments. On Motion, Bill No. 46, "An Act Further To Amend The Minimum Wage (Amendment) Act 1970. MR. WELLS: Mr. Chairman, there is a problem with the Minimum Wage, and the Minister of Labour is not here, I had intended to speak to him directly about this. But this can arise under Clause II. Because this provides for the - it amends the primary legislation to give power to the Lieutenant­ Government in Council to make certain regulations and orders. MR. CROSBIE: •••• handicapped employees. MR.

WELLS: I realize it is only about handicapped employees and so on. But there is a problem with the application of the present minimum wage regulations, in that the officers of the Minimum Wage Board are applying a dual standard, depending on whether the man is hourly paid or monthly paid. The regulations at the moment say that the minimum rate of pay, wages shall be paid at a rate of not less than a $1.10 per hour, and for overtime over forty-eight hours not less than one and one-half times the minimum rate.

And the regulations also say that ~hat applies equally whether the man is on hourly, daily, monthly, or weekly or annual salary, you must keep a '"JA,4"1

June 16th. 1970 Tape 1267 PK - 7 MR. WELLS: record of the man's time. It does not matter whether it is monthly or annually, you muJt keep a record, and the Minimum Wage officers must be able to check his number of hours worked, and his total pay and make sure that he receives not less than the minimum. Now then this is where the problem comes in, they have so interpreted this overtime

section that when ~hey go in and check the man who is on an hourly rate of pay, say he is being paid a $1.50 an hour, and they pay him this across the board, no matter what he works, they make,some highway workers and construction workers and so on are paid on this basis because they are working on and off and all sorts of hours and they want to take advantage of the time to get as many hours in as they can,When the Minimum Wage Inspector goes ip to check the books, he - if the man worked say sixty hours, then forty-eight hours is his straight time, the Minimum Wage Inspector calculates that at a $1.50,which is his normal rate of pay, instead of the minimum required a $1.10, then he calculates the additional twelve hours at a $1.65, and if the two amounts added together exceed his gross pay, the man is being charged, the employer is being charged.

So that for the hourly paid employee; they are setting a standard of his basic pay, whether it is a $1.10 or a $1.50 or a $1.40. Now for the weekly paid employee who gets $75.00 a week, and they go in to check the book, they must use the $1.10 standard. They cannot use any other. Now this is unfair a~d wrong. MR. CURTIS: Inaudible. MR. WELLS: Yes. MR. CROSBIE: The minister is sick this week he is not going to be here. MR. WELLS: Yes, well if we can adjourn at least until th~ ~i~e we could get it cleared up, because I think this matter should be cleared up. MR. CROSBIE: Inaudible. MR. CURTIS: ••••••• presently.

MR. ROBERTS: •••• Bill No. 58. 7448

June 16th. 1970 Tape 1267 PK - 8 On Motion, Bill No. 58, "An Act To Incorporate The Moravian Church In Newfoundland And Labrado.:," Motion, that the Committee re~ort having passed the Bill without amendment, carried: A Bill,"An Act Further to Amend the Minimum Wage (Amendment) Act, 1970. MR WELLS: Clause 4 of the Bill, where there is provision for the inspection of the books etc, by the inspec:tin~ officer - I think they are going about it wrongly. The workers are being cheated, in the long run. In the long run the workers end up, because the contractors just juggle the books. Domestic or casual is exem~ted.

On motion, ~hat the committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again, Mr. Speaker returned to the Chair: MR HODDER: Mr. Speaker, the Committee of the Whole have considered the matters to them referred and have instructed me to repor c havin~ passed Bills. Nos. 33,30 and 58 without amendments and Bills So 29 and 39 with some amendments, and ask leave to sit again. On motion report received and adopted, bills ordered read a third time now, by leave: Thirdt!Reading of Bill,"An Act to Amend the Companies Act", read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper.

A Bill,"An Act to Amend the Trade Union (Emergency Provisions) Act, 1959" read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the <>rd~f. Paper. A Bill,"An Act to Incorporate the Moravian Church in Newfoundland and Labrador", read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Otder Paper. A Bill,"An Act Further to Amend the

Summary Jurisdiction Act", read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Ord.er ~aper. 7449

June 16, 1970, Tape 1268, Page 1 A Bill,"An Act to Amend the Schools Act, 1969", read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper. Second Reading of a Bill, No. oO: lh. MR.ROWE: The purpose bf this Bill has been set out there,Everybody knows that it is a matter referred to the Supreme Court of Newfoundland for a decision.Subsequently the churches got together and arrived at a mutually acceptable decision and we of course have to radify that here in order for their disposition of that money,which was voted to them by this House,be made legal. I mo¥e second reading.

Bill No. 60 read a second time referred to a Committee of the Whole House presently, by leave. Second Reading of a Bill, "An Act Further To Amend the Civil Service Act," MR.JONES: Mr. Speaker, the provision of this Bill is very simple. It applies p~rticularly to teachers. Under the existing Bill a teacher would have to be working for ten years in the teaching profession to have this time made pensionable if she came into Civil Service. Now we propose to have.it changed to read one year, change the ten to one. the person employed as a teacher would have then that service counted as pensionable time.

I move second reading. On motion bill read a second time, ordered referred to a eommittee of the Whole House presently, by leave. MR CROSBIE: Well, the effect is' that if you teach for longer than a year and then become a Civil Servant, that year will be pensionable. Second Reading of a Bill, "An Act Further to Amend the Pensions Premium Act, 1966-1967. 7450

June 16, 1970, Tape 1268, Pa~e 2. the payment of pension premiums. We still have several boatds operated by the government hospital boards a:1d what have you that are not under the Civil Service Pension Act 1967. We want to authorize the collection of their pensions until such time,up to 1972 1so that we can collect their pension in the event while the negotiations and legislation is in progress. Otherwise the employees of these boards will be faced, once they came in under the Act they would have to be faced with a sizable payment of back pension premiums. MR.MURPHY: Mr.

Speaker, on this,with reference to these boards and I think of the Power Commission and so on and so forth, is there a uniform pension right across compared with Civil Service7 I understand that some of theee have very substantial benefits as related to the Civil Service. Is this an actual fact or is there going to be a uniformity no matter what area of government you are serving whether it is on a board or in the actual civil service itself, instead of giving great benefits to one area and lesser benefits to another sector of the public service. MR.ROBERTS: Mr.

Chairman, in supporting the principle of the Bill perhaps I can just answer the question put by the hon. leader of the Opposition. The Government (and this Bill i ,s to enable us further, to give us further power to do it) The Government are bringing all of our direct boards, such as the Po~er Commission, or Medicare or the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation,under our own 'pension plan. We are negotiating with the various hospitals not operated by Government with a view to seeing if they ca: come in. The benefits in the past may have been different, because there 7451

June 16 1970 Tape 1268 page J. are a number of separate pension plans. But they are being made uniform throughout not just in pensions Mr. Speaker, but the policy of the government is to have complete unifcrmity with regard to pay, or wages, annual leave, pensions, The whole business of employee benefits should make no difference whether one works for Her Hajesty as an employee in the department of Health or as an employee of the Power Commission which is an~ent of Her Majesty. I think there have been variances in the past, we are trying to iron them out and this legislation is to enable us better to do that.

Bill No. 55, read a second time referred to a Committee of the Whole House presently, b~ leave. Second Reading of a Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Technical And Vocational Training Act, 1963." MR.RO\-lE: Mr. Chairman, the teachers in our Technical College and in the Vocational Schools are Civil Servants. This means that they come under the normal civil service regulations. In theory this means that even though classes cease next week in the Technical College over there for the next two months, in theory. those teachers are supposed to be over there, even though there is nobody else in the building.

And th~sme thing would apply of course to our vocational schools as well. Now normally what they do,of course,they take their vacation that they are entttled to, their three weeks or four weeks or whatever it happens to be. But still,nevertheless, as things are now we in the department of Education cannot do a thing about it. In theory I tell you that the four hundred teachers are supposed to be in their classrooms or in !heir offices sitting down there all during the summer. Now what this will do is permit us to make those regulatioils,so that ridiculous situation will not exist.

This will not mean "that they will not be subject to duty at any time in that period, but it would mean that the department, the minister, could say to a teacher in the technical college,who happens to belong to Corner ,, . Brook 1 look, go on home to Corner Brook and make your plans for the month that you have off, you have free during the summer when you are not teaching. And 7452

June 16 1970 Tape 1268 page 4. if we do need you we will get in touch with you and give you ample warning.• This would give us the right to treat vocational teachers.although they are in the same way civil servant~/as the ordinary teachers are treated by their boards of education.

MR.WELLS: If that follows ther, is no objection, you can do but if it does not how are yoo going to have - MR.ROWE: Well, w~ cannot do that right now, we cannot. you know these teachers in those schools were employed as , they were given to understand they were civil servants when they came on and we certainly cannot take away that right unilaterally. That would be something subject to negotiation.

If they were of to becomeAthe same status as ordinary teachers,we would then have to set up and there is,as a matter of fact.there is a provision for doing this· It can be done and may very well be done.whereby the technical college and the schools, vocational schools,could be operated by a board set up for that purpose in the same way,for that matter~as Western Memorial Hospital is operated by a board.

But in the meantime we should do something to, and this is what we recommend that we will have the authority to remove this ridiculous or theoretically ridiculous situation which in theory means that the 120 teachers whatever are over here in the Technical College has to stay there every day during the summer even though there is not a student over there. MR.MURPHY: Mr. Chairman, just a question.! am a little confused on this. These teachers are civil servants as such, employed by the government.

We have the teachers in the schools w.ho are not civil servants and we have Memorial University who are not civil servants. Does this follow then that they-will be taken out of the category of being civil servants,as such, rather than you have one group-:as civil servants,whether they are teachers or what not, .·.who are eligible for these benefits say that when school closes only so on and so forth. Another group might be/able to get two weeks annual vacation or things like this, Is this the end in sight, that they would be graded as other teachers and be a sort of a body operated as the minister 7453

June 16 1970 Tape 1268 page 5. I think suggested perhaps by a board like a Board of Education or the ~egents at Memorial University? It seems a fairly complicated problem there. MR.ROWE: I will answer that when I speak.

MR.CROSBIE: My own view is that I think there is some flexibility needed in this and since Technical College and Vocational School Instructors are teachers,although they are civil servants, they have to, I think there is an argument that they cannot be treated just as every other civil servant. that will require some flexibility so that they can be treated in some ways at least as having equivalent benefits as teachers outside the civil service, which I understand is a raason for this amendment. So that regulations can be made governing their summer vacation etc.

And therefore, I support the Bill, I think that the fact that they are civil servants is the anomaly and I think it would be better if they were employed by this Crown Corporation or whatever 'it is that is going to be set up, by a Board • I think this would be much better. I thought there. was

an act introduced. M2.R6WE; Passed last year. MR.CROSBIE: Passed last year was it? MR.ROWE: Only for the Technical College. MR.CROSBIE: I think it would be better if there was a separate board or corporation and employed all the Technical Collage and Vocational Training School Teachers. But in the meantime I think this should be passed. MR.ROWE: Nr. Chairman, MR.WELLS: Mr. Chairman, before the minister speaks. One of the reasons why -I raised this is that I heard a request on the radio, I think the N.T.A. was pumping for it. There were going to be two additional days at school this year or something like that.

This was included in the - that was what we did just now - the N.T.A. was pumping for two additional days pay. If we do this and for some reason or other,two or_ three or four years from now,the government that succeeds the present government deems it desirable to set up a tri-semester system so that you have, you know,in order to use the buildings 7454

June 16 1970 Tape 1268 page 6. to their fullest and have pretty well full time with a week off here or two or three weeks off Christ'}¥ls or · whatever the case may be. And we say to these teachers;now this is the new schedule. We are going to be working an additional month and a-half for five or six weeks, an additional ninety days or whateve~we want a proportionate increase in our pay. Has the government contemplated this? Has the government contemplated this problem?

Is there any provision made for this~ Because,you know, if those teachers follow through in the same way the NZT.A. did,with this extra two days of school, they wanted an increase in pay that would compensate them equivalent for over the year. Now I understand teachers are . paid twelve months around, their cheque, I may be wrong - MR.COLLINS: They are paid' for a ten months salary - MR.ROWE: Only on a ten months - MR.WELLS: On a ten months salary that is a bit of nonsense it is based on an annual salary that is what it is based on.

Now the fact is everybody recognizes that teachers generally,in most elementary and high schools, only work for the ten months of the year. Only teach for ten months of the yearl Now if we do this now and it is found necessary in a year or two years from now to set up a tri-semester system,we are goin~ to be in trouble MR.ROWE: I can answer that, is there anybody else Mr. Chairman~ I will only take half a minute actually. These teachers in the Vocational School and in the Technical College are taken on as Civil Servants and they under­ stand that they have all the obligations of Civil Servants.

Therefore, any thing that we might do by way of r.egulation,under this amendment here ,will be designed in such a way that they will understand they are not relieved of any obligation under their Civil Service contract at all. · MR.WELLS': - the ministe~ may revoke it any time. MR.ROWE: Precisely. This will simply be a. convenience that if somebody does want to go and visit his cousin over in Austria in the month of August well he can do it. Now he cannot do it at all. He could do it by applying 7455

lb. June 16 1970 Tape 1268 page 7. to .me and I would say, "Yes, boy,we are not going to need you until the . • first day of September,go on over to Austria,or you know - even New York. I move second reading. On motion Bill read a second time ordered referred to Comdt tee of the Whole House, pJ!'eSently by leave. MR. SPEAKER: It being one o'clock I do now leave the Chair until 3:00 p.m. 7456

PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY Volume 1 Number 116 4th. Session 34th. General Assembly VERBATIM REPORT TUESDAY, JUNE 16, 1970 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE GEORGE W. CLARKE

June 16, 1970, Tape 1269, Page 1 -- apb The House resumed at 3:00 p.m. Hr. Speaker in the Chair: HR. SMALLWOOD (J.R.): Mr. Speaker, with the forebearance of the House, I have the answers to several questions. Question 187, I have not the date of that question, but it was in the name of the bon. the member for St. John's West. Question 187, the answer is no. Question 238, in the name of the hon. the member for St. John's Centre, St. John's Centre? Yes, the Leader of the Opposition.

This firm was retained to participate with a representative of the Government of Canada, and With Provincial officials in a review of the Government's cost benefit study relating to the supply of subsidized power for industries. That is Stone and ~ebster. Question 246, in the name of the bon. the member for St. John's West, no date given ~n this reply- the answer to the first

part is no. The answer to the second

part is no. Question 248, in the name of the hon. the member for St. John's West, the negotiations - the answer 'is yes to the first part, we have been negotiating with Mr. Ginter with regard to his taking over the building which is the property of the Government. The answer to the second

part is yes, and the answer to all the three is no. Question 253, in the name of the han. the member for St. John's West, The description "special assistant" and the description "executive assistant," are somewhat va~ue, and it is a bit difficult to determine what the han. member has in mind. There are no officers with either of these specific titles in the office of the Premier, and in that connection the hon. gentleman might see the answer to question 254. As far as other ministers are concerned, the question ·.should be directed to them individually.

I do not think that any of them have executive assistants, or at least anybody on their staff with that title • . Question 432, in the name of the bon. the member for Fortune Bay. Mr. He~n Batten's position in my office is that of liaison officer with industrial projects with which he is required to keep an intimate touch in my behalf as I just do not have the time to keep as closely in touch with them / physically out on the site as I would like to do. The answer to the second

part is, subhead 303-01, and the answer to the third

part is that he resigned 7457

June 16, 1970, Tapw 1269, Page 2 apb from public service on the 31st. of August, 1969, and he was re-employed on the 5th. of November 1969. He was not of course paid by the Government while he 'was not working for the Government. MR. CURTIS: Number 31. MR. SPEAKER: Item 31, second reading of a Bill, "

An Act Furhter To Amend The Income Tax Act, 1961."

(74) MR. E.JONES: Mr. Speaker, the House will remember a few days ago that the Premier made an announcement because of certain changes in the mode and method of collecting income and corporation tax where Newfoundland would benefit considerably in the coming year. As the House is also aware,Mr. Speaker, the Federal Government collects income and corporation tax on behalf of the Province of Newfoundland, and they do so on their tax agreement, During the past year, the Federal Government made certain changes in their income tax laws and the method of the laws covering the collection of income and corporation tax.

Tliey have requested us , if we will conform with their present legislation by bringing in this amendment to our own Provincial Income Tax Act. I move second reading. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, in connection with this Bill, it was announced, when the minister was out west there a week or two ago, there was an announcement that the Government of Canada would remit, I think it is to the Provinces earlier than it usually does, the corporation tax collected in the Provinces. So, the effect would be. that we receive more money this financial year than,say, the last year.

Would the minister just explain that to..: the House. That is connected with this amendment,is it not? MR. -SPEAKER: If the bon. gentleman speaks now he closes the debate. MR. JONES: Mr. Speaker, I am not sure if I can explain the details of this arrangement, except to say that this Bill, this amendment here.would give effect to the proposed legisl·auon.

The best information - I am not an income tax expert, they are speeding it up I understand from twelve payments to thirteen. and that they will draw down money from- the corporations will be required to speed up their payments to the Federal Government, and in turn we it will get~in the Province a bit faster. But the best information I can give 7458

June 16, 1970, Tape 1269, Page 3 -- apb this House,after meeting between my officials and the officials of the Federal Income Tax Department of Revenue and what have you, is that the actual details of this and the full benefit and impact on our revenue for this year will not be known until sometime around July. As you know,the collection and distribution of income and corporation tax is a fairly complicated matter, and we should know by July just what the impact will be. As I said earlier, in opening this debate, this Bill will give effect to the amendments made in the Federal Income Tax Law.

On motion Bill, read a second time, ordered referred to a cammittee of the .whole House presently, by leave. ;•:. .;., MR. CURTIS: Number 65 and number 30. MR. SPEAKER: Second reading of a Bill, "

An Act To Provide For Ownership Of Individual Units In Buildings."

(65) MR. CURTIS: Mr. Speak~r, I am not going to pretend to analyse this Bill in great detail. The effect of the Bill is to allow either the building of apartments or the conversion of apartments into units so that one could b~y an apartment as part of the building and sell it again. The idea could be best conveyed perhaps in this way - suppose 1for instance,one of the housing company buildings was converted into condominiums, every tenant would be able to buy his own apartment, and he would own his own apartment.

He could sell his own apartment, he could mortgage it, he could do what he likes with it, he could treat it as if it were a separate house although it is only an apartment in an apartment building. The way it works is that there are certain features of the building which are in common with all tenants. The tenants pay - each tenant pays his own share of these common parts of the building, such as for instance the roof, the cleaning, the maintenance of 'the halls, perhaps heat, perhaps electric light and all that.

The great advantage,of course, is that a tenant who lives in that type of building does not have to pay income tax on what he would otherwise be paying as rent. He can hav~ his money invested in the apartment, therefore, he does not have to pay rent for the apartment, therefor~ 7459

June 16, 1970, Tape 1269, Page 4 -- apb he does not have to earn money·, pay income tax on it and use the balance to pay rent. He can save considerably in that manner. It is a type of building that is getting very popular throughout .the North American Continent now, and I think my hon. friend is worried as to ••••• AN HON .' MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. CURTIS: Well yes, suppose for instance now you have an apartment. The rent for that apartment would be $100. per month. You have to pay $100. a month. To get that $100. to pay, you have to earn perhaps $150. a month, because, fifty percent of it goes to income tax.

MR. WELLS: (Inaudible) MR. CURTIS: Fifty percent of your income I ·said, fifty percent. MR. ~roRPHY: Your are not referring to the tenant, you are referring to the landlord. MR. CURTIS: In this case there is no landlord, no tenant. You are your own owner, ,you are co-o~er of an apartment building. But you see, the money Mr. Speaker, AN HON. MEMBER: It is the same as a dwelling house. MR. CURTIS: It is the same as if it were your own dwelling house. Now, if you have a dwelling ' house 1Mr. Speaker, you pay municipal taxes on it, but you do not pay income tax on it.

Whereas, if you rent a house ••••••• MR. WELLS: The money you earn will pay your mortgage. MR. CURTIS: Yes, but on the other hand, if you rent - if you pay rent, the · money with which you pay rent you have to pay income tax on. MR. WELLS: The same goes with mortgage payments. MR. £ORTIS: Yes I know, . but suppose you have it paid off, there is no such thing as paying off your rent if yo~ are a tenant. I think those of us here who are lawyers ••••• MR.. COLLINS: - landlord as opposed ~o a corporation or a cooperative group MR.

CURTIS: Well, in respect it is the same as a cooperative group, the only thing is, it gives you legal title to a portion of a building rather than a whole building. For instance, you might own the upstairs flat of a house, and 74GO

June 16, 1970, Tape 1269, Page 5 -- apb you can sell the upstairs flat. You can own the downstairs flat and you can sell the downstairs flat. You can own any portion of the building and it is you~s to buy and sell and to have. So, that instead of becoming a tenant, you are an owner and as owner you only pay your share of the common cost. I think my friends here,who are lawyers, can probably follow it better than those who are not. I do think it is a form that is desirable to bave.

I think that since there is some buildings that we are putting up now might well be transferred into condominiums, which would mean that instead of ten people paying rent for ten apartments to a common landlord, each of these ten would own his own apartment. It would all be a big partnership, each paying his own share of the general overhead. MR. MURPHY: Would the Housing Corporation be prepared at this time to do this with the Churchill Square apartments? Is this the idea? MR. CURTIS: I am not saying that they would or that they would not. It does open a door.

It opens a door to making a new type of dwelling house, which people can own. They can own an apartment instead of owning a house. They can sell an apartment instead of selling a house, and all I can say is this Mr. Speaker, that this Bill has been drafted from Nova Scotia Legislation, it has been drafted from legislation all across Canada, and the man who came up with it came from Scotland. He is on the staff downstairs, and he has also incorporated some of the provisions .which they have in Scotland. I am not pretending that the Bill is perfect.

The Bill may have to be amended from time to time, but it is an endeavour to try out this system of ownership so that if people want to take advantage of it they can. me I t~ink people will take advantage of it~ For instance, they tell~that if you were going down to Nassau you can buy a condominium, you can buy an apartment. When you are away you just pay the overhead for maintenance of the rooms and the heat and the care. I think that kind of - in our modern society, I think this type of building is going to become more popular as time goe·s on.

I would move the second reading,with the view of getting the feelings of the House on it. MR. MURPHY: This thing in theory sounds excellent, and I think it would be 7461

June 16, 1970, Tape 1269, Page 6 -- apb a wonderful thing if you got ten or twelve people together with common interests to do such a thing. Looking forward, there are so many problems that could confront. For example, I had one there, say, I did have one in this and I was fairly well liked and respected in this condominium and I decided to sell, well I might sell to a person.who perhaps would no.t be in the least desirable to the rest of the tenants.

There would be common things, and I am thinking, I am just trying to visualize, say we had a three storey thing, well the guy on the first flat he would look after that, and then we have a stairs going to the second flat which the second storey tenants would use,we have one going to the third flat which the third storey tenant - you know there are common things. You mentioned the roof, well someone will have to be responsible between them all to keep the roof repaired. There must be an entrance way in the hallway before you go into your apartment.

You have a window on this end of the hall here perhaps looking out,that is not owned by anybody in particular but common to the rest of the building. I am just wondering MR. SMALLWOD: What is the difference between eight houses in a row along a street, a row of housing, eight houses •••••• MR. MURPHY: Yes. MR. SMALLWOOD: And eight houses tipped straight up one on top of the other? MR. MURPHY: Yes, well all right, who is responsible for the stairs on the fourth floor? SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible) MR.. MURPHY: Well, there will not . be an individual owner. MR. SMALLWOOD: Not the stairs, no. MR. "MURPHY: MR.

ROBERTS: MR. SMALLWOOD: I just wondered, or the roof as the •••••••••••• (Inaudible) I would not worry too much about it. MR.. MURPHY: These are some of the thoughts that struck me on it. MR. SMALL 'WOOD: If I were the Leader of the Opposition this would be the least of my worries. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I mean I am partly •••••••• MR. SMALLWOOD: In housing, no 7462

June 16, 1970, Tape 1269, Page 7 -- apb MR. MURPHY: I am very interested, very much interested. MR. CROSBIE: I think that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition will probably be the first - one of the first to move into a condominium when he becomes Premie~,. · AN HON. MEMBER: What about the big one? MR. MURPHY: What about the chief, what about the estate? MR. CROSBIE: The chief is going to have to stay out of the condominiums. MR. SMALLWOOD: I have to die before any other Premier can live in that. MR. MURPHY: I was not aware of that. MR.

SHALLWOOD: Oh yes, I am allowed to live in it till I die, and my wife if she survives me. MR. CROSBIE: It is going to be a great mausoleum out there Mr. Speaker. MR. SMALLWOOD: So, there will be nobody in the Chamber at the moment, well I would not say that exactly, but no one on that side who will ever live in that house. MR. CROSBIE: It is going to be like Lenin'~ tomb Mr. Speaker. We hope that the Premier will be there just like Lenin, and the people will line up every Sunday on Roache's Line. This is in many long years to come,of course, we do not wish it to happen too soon. MR.

SMALLIDOD: I do not expect to stay Premier any more than another eight or nine years. MR. CROSBIE: Well, it is not always what we wish that happens. MR. SMALLWOOD: Is the hon. gentleman kidding? MR. MURPHY: I will let the bon. gentleman carry on MR._SMALLWOOD: The greatest little kidder in the House. MR. MURPHY: This is not a Bill to create a new Premier for Newfoundland. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, the minister was good enough to let us have a copy of this Bill some time ago, and this is legislation that is in effect in Nova Scotia and other Canadian Provinces.

I think it originated down in Florida or other States of the United States, New York, What it does is permit a person to own an apartment instead of renting one. Whether or not ten people may agree to put up a condominium between them, or they might not, but any 7463

June 16, 1970, Tape 1269, Page 8 -- apb developer who wants to can build now,if this is passed, and he observes the legislation, an apartment building and then advertise the apart~nt units for sale. Anybody interested, there maybe 20,000 •••••••••••••••••••••• 7464

June 16th., 1970 Tape no 1270 Page 1 Mr. Crosbie. interested. They may be $20,000 an apartment or $25,000 or $30,000. Whoever wants to will be able to buy an apartment. He can mortgage the apartment. There will be a new registry in the Registry of Deeds - the Condominium Registry in which there will be registered the plans of this building with a number assigned to each apartment unit and all the plans in the registry and the person will be able to buy an apartment and get a mortgage from a mortgage company on the apartment or if he has the money just buy the apart~nt.

The whole building will be regulated by a corporation that each condominium will have to have in which each apartment owner will be a member of the corporation and that corporation will look after the common areas of the building - the hallways and so on. All the common elements will be looked after and each apartment owner will have to pay so much a month to the corporation to look after the charges that are going to be assessed for all the repairs and maintenance of the common areas of the building. It is all provided for in the Act. It has been very successful elsewhere.

Nobody knows how popular or unpopular it might be in Newfoundland. But for people who do not want to build their own home but who would like to own an apartment rather than paying rent every month - have something that they are going to own, that they can sell or their heirs can sell after they die and get their money back,instead of having it all paid out in rent, t'his will give them an opportunity to do that, and as the minister says, there may be a turn out in practise that there may have to be some amendments to this.

But as far as I could see,looking it over, it seems to have everything covered that one would think would need to be covered in this. I think it is very much to be encouraged. When the first condominium will be built in,, Newfoundland, I do not know. 7465

June 16th., 1970 Tape no 1270 Page 2 Mr. Crosbie. Well whoever is an alert builder should certainly try one as soon as the legislation is passe .d, I believe that at present an apartment building could be turned into a condominium also,if the necessary steps are carried out in accordance with the legislation. Now if the man who builds a condominium cannot sell ·all the apartments, well, of course, there is nothing to .stop him from going ahead and renting the ones he cannot sell. You know· he may be able to sell five and have to rent five to other people, and he would be the owner of the other five.

So, I think the principle is very worthwhile, Whether buying apartments is any cheaper than a house, I do not know. I do not know how the construction costs compare. But some of the buiidings that have been built, it would be more expensive. But even Elizabeth Towers, eventually, · if it were decided to sell it or if the Government wished to get some of its money back immediately, instead of waiting, it could be turned into a condominium and some of the apartments sold or all the apartments sold. I certainly support the Bill, .and I think it is a very good piece of legislation.

On motion a Bill, "An Act To Provide For Ownership Of Individual Units In Buildings," read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House presently by leave. MR. CURTIS: No. 33. Motion, second reading of a Bill, "An Act To Amend The ChaiTman Of Board Of Commissioners Of Public Utilities Pension Act, 1968, (Bill no. 70). MR. CURTIS; I beg to move, Mr. Speaker, the second reading of this Bill.

Section 5(1)(

c) of The Chairman Of Board Of Commissioners Of Public Utilities (Pension) Act, 1968, provides, inter alia, that the service of the Chairman of the Board shall not be considered as service of an established Civil Servant unless payments, which would have been or are hereafter payable by 7466

June 16th., 1970 Tape no 1270 Page 3 Mr. Curtis the Province with respect to an established Civil Servant for the purposes of the new Pension Plan,have been and are made by the Board with respect of the Chairman. In fact no payments have been made b~ the Province with respect to an established Civil Servant and none are contemplated. The amendment r~peals paragraph S(l)(

c) and provides that payments shall be made by the Board in respect of its Chairman in amounts sequent to those deducted from the salary of the Chairman and paid into the Consolidated Revenue Fund. I do not know whether anybody understands that, but it does really provide for payments to be made by the Board of Public Utilities to the Government.equivalent to what the Government would have to pay to the fund with respect to the Chairman's pension. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker.

I think - I do not know what the position is of the other employees of the Board of Commissioners of Public Utilities - Do they have their own Pension Plan? They have their own. So, what l gather - this is providing, really. that the empioyer of the Chairman, which is the Board,make a contribution towards this pension. The Government of the Province are actually going to pay the Chairman's pension. But this requires the Board to match the contribution that the Chairman is now making under the new Pension Plan. so that the Board has also made some contEibution to his pension.

That is the effect of the amendment is it not? On !notion a Bill, ''An Act To Amend The Chairman Of 'The Board Of Commissioners Of Public Utilities (Pension) Act. 1968." read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House presently. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, before the next order is called, could I have consent of the Bouse to give answers to two questions. 254 in the