May 8, 2008

RESOURCE COMMITTEE

The Committee met at 5:30 p.m. in the House of Assembly.

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Darryl Kelly, MHA for the District of Humber

Valley, replaces Ray Hunter, MHA for the District of Grand Falls-Windsor-Green

Bay South; and Wally Young, MHA for St. Barbe, replaces Derrick Dalley, MHA for

the District of The Isles of Notre Dame.

CHAIR (Mr. Harding): Order please!

We have the go ahead now to begin the meeting.

I would like to welcome you all here this evening. We are debating the

Estimates of the Department of Business, so I will ask the Committee members

we have a couple of alternates here this evening to introduce themselves by

name and district.

MR. BAKER: Jim Baker, MHA for the District of Labrador West.

MR. KELLY: Darryl Kelly, MHA for the District of Humber Valley, filling

in for Ray Hunter.

MS MICHAEL: Lorraine Michael, MHA for the District of Signal Hill-Quidi

Vidi.

MR. PARSONS: Kelvin Parsons, MHA for the District of Burgeo &

LaPoile.

MR. LOVELESS: Elvis Loveless, Opposition staff member.

MR. YOUNG: Wally Young, MHA for the District of St. Barbe.

MR. VERGE: Wade Verge, MHA for the District of Lewisporte.

CHAIR: Thank you very much.

We will follow the same procedure as we have done for the other meetings.

After the subhead is called, the first subhead, I will ask the minister to

speak. He will have up to fifteen minutes to introduce his officials and give an

overview of his Estimates for the year.

Following that, then the critic or Vice-Chair, Mr. Parsons, will have up to

fifteen minutes, and then alternate with any other members who want to ask

questions on a ten-minute rotation basis.

Before we get into that, we do have the minutes here of the previous meeting,

Department of Tourism, Culture & Recreation, so I would ask for a motion now

to adopt these minutes as circulated.

Moved by Mr. Parsons, seconded by Ms Michael, that the minutes, Department of

Tourism, Culture & Recreation, be adopted as circulated.

All those in favour, 'aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: All those against, 'nay'.

Motion carried.

On motion, minutes of Department of Tourism, Culture & Recreation

Estimates adopted as circulated.

CHAIR: I ask the Clerk now to call the first subhead.

CLERK: 1.1.01.

CHAIR: 1.1.01, shall that carry?

Minister Oram.

MR. ORAM: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good evening everyone. Thank you for joining us tonight.

With me this evening is Ray Dillon. He is the Deputy Minister of the

Department of Business. Sitting next to him is Laurie Skinner, the Assistant

Deputy Minister, and to my far left is Vanessa McBay, Director of Brand

Development, and next to her is Linda Vaughan, Director of Financial Operations,

Sandy Collins, my assistant, and Mark King, Director of Communications, is right

here on back, right behind me.

I would like to take a moment to highlight the activities of the department,

first of all. The Department of Business has been allocated $36.6 million for

the 2008-2009 fiscal year, to fulfill its mandate to provide leadership for

business development and growth in Newfoundland and Labrador.

The vast majority of that funding, approximately $32 million, will go to

support the primary focus of the department, and that is to attract new business

to Newfoundland and Labrador. The funding programs for business attraction were

established in Budget 2007 as a key financial incentive tool for the department's

ongoing inward investment attraction efforts. These programs were recommitted

this fiscal year.

They include: the $25 million Business Attraction Fund, with flexibility to

meet particular client needs to attract and support a company's location or

expansion in the Province - through this fund, government will be able to

provide loans and equity investments to companies interested in conducting

operations in the Province; and $5 million in grant and subsidy funding to

support start-up costs for such ventures. Together, these investments put the

Province in a more competitive position when it comes to competing with other

jurisdictions for inward business investment.

The Department of Business also administers the $2 million Oil and Gas

Manufacturing and Services Export Development Fund which assists local firms in

the oil and gas supply and service sector to further enhance their manufacturing

and services applications for a wider market application and win new export

contracts.

The department has been very active during the past year in support of

business attraction. We have been laying the groundwork and are making progress

to position Newfoundland and Labrador as a recognized place for business to

invest and locate. We are also actively pursuing and prospecting in some

targeted geographic and sector-based markets. We have done on-the-ground

research in international and Canadian markets. We have been building a client

base and working through active proposals.

The department also continues to strengthen and build the Province's new

Brand Signature. The Brand Signature is the identifier for the Province of

Newfoundland and Labrador and the department will continue to promote it in the

Province and throughout the country and around the world. Of course, the

branding and marketing activities overall support the business attraction

mandate and its objectives.

The department continues to oversee and make meaningful progress on red tape

reduction. To the end of the past fiscal year, the concerted effort of

departments and agencies and their dedicated employees has resulted in the

elimination of over $40,000 regulatory requirements since the initiative began.

We now have hit and surpassed the halfway point to our targeted 25 per cent

overall reduction. This is relieving the regulatory burden on the public and

business and improving client services across the government. The Department of

Business will continue in its mission to attract new business across the

Province and across sectors with an eye to supporting the vision of a vibrant,

sustainable economy in Newfoundland and Labrador.

Mr. Chair, I thank you for the opportunity to highlight some of the

activities of the Department of Business and I would be happy to answer any

questions.

CHAIR: Thanks very much, Mr. Oram.

Before we begin questioning, I just want to say that this is being record by

Hansard and if you need to call on any of your officials to respond, for them to

identify themselves each time they speak.

MR. ORAM: Sure, no problem.

CHAIR: Mr. Parsons.

MR. PARSONS: Thank you.

Minister, maybe we will start with a few line-by-line items first, on 1.1.01.

Just for the record, am I correct in stating that the Department of Business has

existed since the 2004 Budget?

MR. ORAM: The 2004 Budget, correct.

MR. PARSONS: Yes, that is right.

On item 01, Salaries, I notice there was a small decrease there from what was

originally budgeted, about $17,500. Is there any particular reason for that?

MR. ORAM: You are talking about line 01, the

MR. PARSONS: 1.1.01.01, Salaries.

MR. ORAM: Yes, it would have been $260,500 we budgeted, but we only spent

$243,000. Is that what you are asking?

MR. PARSONS: Correct.

MR. ORAM: Yes, Laurie.

MS SKINNER: During the year there were some funds there for some

temporary labour and we did not have a need to spend that throughout the year.

MR. PARSONS: Can you tell what positions, exactly, were covered off with

those funds?

MR. ORAM: From the Minister's Office, you mean?

MR. PARSONS: Yes, the same one, we are talking Salaries under 01.

MS SKINNER: There are five positions in there, and they include the

minister, an executive assistant, secretary to the minister, the departmental

secretary to the minister, and there is also a liaison officer.

MR. PARSONS: A liaison officer? What is the job description? What is the

difference between your departmental secretary and you said another secretary?

MS SKINNER: There is a secretary to the minister and a departmental

secretary to the minister.

MR. PARSONS: I understand most departments only have one departmental

secretary and there is not an additional secretary to the minister. Is that

correct? Is this unusual for your department?

MS SKINNER: No, we have compared the structure of our department to other

departments and it is consistent.

MR. PARSONS: Two secretaries for the minister, one departmental and one

secretary to the minister.

MS SKINNER: One is the constituency secretary.

MR. ORAM: I think there is some confusion around that, if I can clear

that up. My constituency assistant, they call it secretary here but it is

actually the constituency assistant and not a secretary.

MR. PARSONS: Your constituency assistant's cost wouldn't be under the

Minister's Office Salaries.

MR. ORAM: It should be under the House of Assembly.

MR. PARSONS: That would be under the House of Assembly.

MR. ORAM: Yes.

I will have to get that answer for you and let you know.

MR. PARSONS: My understanding is that

MR. ORAM: There was some confusion here before, when we did our flow

chart, so I am just wondering if that may have gotten mixed up here again.

MR. PARSONS: In any department I have ever done Estimates for, there is

the minister, there is the departmental secretary to the minister, and I

understand now your executive assistant fits under there, but this other

position I have never heard of before and I have done ten years of Estimates.

What about the other person you referenced, the liaison officer?

MS SKINNER: (Inaudible) get back you on the details of that particular

position.

MR. PARSONS: Okay, and the breakdown for who is paid what, and what their

job descriptions are for each of the positions?

MS SKINNER: Yes.

MR. PARSONS: Thank you.

Under Transportation and Communications, the same heading, 1.1.01., but it is

under 03., it looks like it was down by about $33,800. What was the reason for

why it was down?

MR. ORAM: Actually, what had happened is, of course, we do not have our

full complement of staff yet; so, because the department is still trying to put

our staff in place, a lot of the travel was not used to be able to continue on.

Plus, I suppose - and this is for the Minister's Office - a lot of it had to

do with the fact that I had just gotten in office, of course, in November, so we

did not do a whole lot of travel at that particular time because of just trying

to get my feet wet around the department and so on.

MR. PARSONS: First of all, can you give me the split on what portion of

the $106,800 that was spent, what portion of it was for transportation and what

portion of it was for communications?

MR. ORAM: Laurie, do we have that?

MS SKINNER: I do not have that breakdown with me here now, but I can

certainly get it for you.

MR. PARSONS: I take it that the transportation portion of that expense

would include not only for the current minister but there was a minister in that

position prior to yourself, so it does reflect the full year of 2007-2008.

MR. ORAM: Yes.

MR. PARSONS: So, besides telling me - and that is only for the minister's

transportation?

MR. ORAM: Yes.

MR. PARSONS: If you could give me the breakout, can you tell me what each

minister spent?

MR. ORAM: I can do that, and we can get that for you. It is not a

problem. We will certainly get that for you.

MR. PARSONS: Okay.

Can you give me the details as to where the transportation took place?

MR. ORAM: You mean the travel?

MR. PARSONS: Yes.

MR. ORAM: I can, actually.

MR. PARSONS: For both ministers.

MR. ORAM: For both ministers, yes.

Actually, for the former minister there was a business prospecting trip to

Germany and there was also a trip to Toronto. For myself, there was a trip to

India and a trip to Ottawa. That was basically the travel within our business

attraction.

MR. PARSONS: I take it you have a price tag attached to each of those

trips.

MR. ORAM: We do, but I have to tell you, I don't have it right here

right now but we can get that for you if you want.

MR. PARSONS: You will undertake to provide that to us?

MR. ORAM: Absolutely, no problem, yes.

MR. PARSONS: Thank you.

Under the communications portion of that expense of $106,800, which you are

going to provide to us later what the actual split was, what kind of

communications are we talking about here in terms of costing? How do these

expenses relate? Is it e-mails or computer costs, printing costs, advertising

costs, telephone bills, polling? What might it be?

MR. ORAM: My understanding is that would be all of my - like the cell

bills that we would have, and the telephone costs associated with my office.

MR. PARSONS: Is there any portion of your communications cost here, does

that include any portion whatsoever, for media monitoring?

MR. ORAM: No, not at all.

MR. PARSONS: Is there any portion in here for polling?

MR. ORAM: No, not at all.

MR. PARSONS: Is there anything in here for advertising?

MR. ORAM: No, not in that.

MR. PARSONS: Okay.

I notice your budget for this year, even though you did not spend it all last

year, you feel you will this year, of course, so you left the figures the same.

Is that correct?

MR. ORAM: Yes, exactly.

MR. PARSONS: Moving next to the 1.2.01., Executive Support, under the

Salaries component again, the Salaries Estimates back last year was $561,500,

actually spent $366,000.

MR. ORAM: Yes.

MR. PARSONS: What salaries were included in that, what positions?

MR. ORAM: Positions in that, Laurie, do you have a copy of those

positions? Actually, I think I have it here anyway.

There were seven positions, actually. There was a deputy minister's

position, two assistant deputy ministers, a director of communications, a

secretary to the deputy minister, a secretary to the ADMs, and a receptionist.

MR. PARSONS: Seven in total.

MR. ORAM: Yes.

MS SKINNER: (Inaudible) complement. We had four vacancies in the

department in that particular classification for 2007-2008.

MR. PARSONS: I take it that is why, albeit you budgeted $561,000 for the

seven positions, you only spent $366,000 because you had four vacancies?

MS SKINNER: Yes.

MR. PARSONS: I notice you intend to ramp up then, I guess, for 2008-2009.

MR. ORAM: We do, yes. In fact, when I came into the department there was

an organizational chart that was there, but I did take the time at that time to

bring about a review of the full department, to bring about a review of who we

actually wanted to hire and what our focus would be. So we kind of, I guess, for

lack of a better term, slowed the process down at that point until we could

finish our review.

We have since then finished this review, so now we are comfortable with where

we want to go. So we will certainly be hiring more people in the next year.

MR. PARSONS: In addition to the seven you named I take it they are

still there.

MR. ORAM: Oh, yes.

MR. PARSONS: Who do you plan on hiring?

MR. ORAM: We have an organizational chart.

Laurie?

MS SKINNER: (Inaudible) department that we plan on hiring in 2008-2009

would be the admin. assistant to the deputy minister, and there is a position

there for the ADM for Policy, a receptionist, and a secretary to the ADM.

MR. PARSONS: Okay, I am a bit confused now. You had seven positions

previously?

MS SKINNER: Yes.

MR. PARSONS: That is the same seven you had before. Albeit they were

vacant, you plan on filling them all?

MS SKINNER: Yes. Last year we had seven positions. Four were vacant and

three were filled.

MR. PARSONS: Right.

My understanding is you intend to fill all seven of those, but are you adding

any others, that is what I am getting at, because you bumped it from $561,000 to

$608,000? What is the position you intend to add, or positions?

MS SKINNER: There is a person that is added in the executive group, and

that person is going to be serving basically to initiate and establish business

networks to support the mandate of the department. They are going to be doing

some event planning for local, national and international events, liaising with

the other departments through the Ambassador Program that is currently in INTRD

in order to leverage some of the relationships that I guess some of the

expatriates of Newfoundland would have, and they are also

MR. PARSONS: Is there a job title?

MS SKINNER: What?

MR. PARSONS: Is there a job title for that person?

MS SKINNER: It is an executive liaison officer, actually.

MR. PARSONS: An executive liaison officer; and those are the duties you

just enumerated.

MS SKINNER: Yes.

The position will also provide some support services to the Business Advisory

Board.

MR. PARSONS: Under the same heading, Transportation and Communications, I

am wondering again if you can break out what portion was transportation and what

portion was communications.

MR. ORAM: We do not have that here, but we will get it for you.

MR. PARSONS: Okay.

I notice, as well, you spent some $93,000 less than what had been budgeted.

Is that because the positions were not filled that you just referenced, the four

positions?

MR. ORAM: Yes, that is the reason.

MS SKINNER: (Inaudible) deputy minister in place, and that would have

been a position that would have had a fair amount of travel.

MR. PARSONS: Okay.

So that is, I take it, why you put it back again this year to $173,000. If

you have a full complement, you will be spending those funds?

MS SKINNER: Exactly, yes.

MR. PARSONS: Under Professional Services, the same heading, you had

budgeted $138,700 and you only spent $10,000.

MR. ORAM: Yes.

MR. PARSONS: What kind of Professional Services are we talking about for

that $10,000?

MR. ORAM: Laurie?

MS SKINNER: The Professional Services that are budgeted in the executive

group is split between two categories, I guess. Any research -

MR. PARSONS: I cannot hear you very well, either; if you could speak up?

MS SKINNER: All right.

It is research and related studies that would be conducted for labour market

analysis, or if we are going into a particular market and we need to actually

scope that market then we would provide research in there. Also, there is a

budget in there for Professional Services for any research that the Business

Advisory Board would ask the department to undertake on their behalf.

MR. PARSONS: Maybe if you could just go back again, I didn't hear that.

MS SKINNER: Okay.

MR. PARSONS: What was the $10,000 spent on?

MS SKINNER: The $10,000 was just some miscellaneous research that we had

during the year.

MR. PARSONS: So you would have paid people outside of the department?

MS SKINNER: Yes.

MR. PARSONS: That is what I am trying to get a handle on, the nature of

what you would have had to go outside to get. What would it have been? Who would

it have been?

MS SKINNER: Who would it have been?

MR. PARSONS: Yes.

MS SKINNER: I guess we had contracted an outside service firm to do some

research on one of the labour to see how we could basically facilitate work in

some of the fabrication yards in the Province through co-operation between

labour and industry. That is where primarily those costs were spent during the

year.

MR. PARSONS: Okay.

When you do stuff like that, and do outside professional services, how is it

done? Is it RFPs or public tendering?

MS SKINNER: RFPs primarily.

MR. PARSONS: I understand there was quite a substantial renovation, shall

we say, for your department. Your offices are now on the sixth floor of the East

Block?

MR. ORAM: Yes, that is correct.

MR. PARSONS: What was the price tag for the total renovations?

MR. ORAM: They were done in the last fiscal year, not this fiscal year.

MR. PARSONS: So, would you know what they were?

MR. ORAM: About $25,000.

MR. PARSONS: For all of the renovations?

MR. ORAM: Yes.

MR. PARSONS: Okay.

That includes the minister's office, everybody?

MR. ORAM: Yes.

MR. PARSONS: The whole department, $25,000?

MR. ORAM: Yes.

MR. PARSONS: How about the furnishings piece? Does that include

furnishings?

MR. ORAM: I would think that furnishings would be outside. I wasn't

there, so I have to depend on Laurie.

MS SKINNER: Furnishings was set up, but as we add new people into the

department you can see in each area there is actually an allocated budget to

furnish for those particular additions.

MR. PARSONS: Is everybody now under the one roof? I understand that you

were dispersed throughout the Confederation Complex at one point.

MR. ORAM: No, we are still not under one roof. We do have positions that

are in different areas within the building.

MR. PARSONS: Is that likely to stay that way, or is it your goal to have

everyone under the same roof?

MR. ORAM: Unless we can find a way to build a piece on the roof there, I

would suggest that we are going to have to continue like that. We just do not

have the room.

MR. PARSONS: You do not have the space?

MR. ORAM: No.

MR. PARSONS: How many people in total in your department

MR. ORAM: How many people -

MR. PARSONS: - do you intend to have in your department? Once you get

fully scoped out, how many people do you think will be in your department?

MR. ORAM: I think it is thirty-nine all together.

MR. PARSONS: Of the thirty-nine, how many do you think you are going to

be able to accommodate on the sixth floor space?

MR. ORAM: That is a really good question. We are probably going to be

able to accommodate, I would think, maybe twenty-eight or twenty-nine.

MR. PARSONS: I will turn it over at this point to Ms Michael.

CHAIR: Okay.

Thank you, Mr. Parsons.

Ms Michael.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairperson.

I think what I would like to do is go to the bottom line, because the bottom

line is created by the details that Mr. Parsons was starting to get at there,

and ask a general question that might help.

MR. ORAM: Sure.

MS MICHAEL: It might even help speed it up, I don't know.

I am looking back at the 2006-2007 budget which you probably do not have in

front of you.

MR. ORAM: No.

MS MICHAEL: In 2006-2007 the budget was $3,983,200, so almost $4 million.

The revision was $3,354,300. So, in 2006-2007 you were less than $3.5 million

budget. You obviously put a lot of big plans in place, especially under business

attraction and the Business Attraction Fund, and that is when you did your first

estimated budget of $38,215,300.

We come, then, to 2007-2008 and we see that you had that big budget in mind

of $38,734,700, I think - over here it says seven and there is says three, you

had a little revision but, in actual fact, the plans did not pan out and you

only spent $3,038,900, even less than what you had spent in 2006. It was

slightly less than what you had spent in 2006. Now you are coming back with

another estimate which is $36 million, so $2 million less than what you

estimated last year.

I guess, Minister, I would really like to have some sense of comfort that you

have a plan in place that is going to work this time that has not worked up

until now. You have mentioned stuff, but how concretely can you assure us that

you are going to spend the money this year?

MR. ORAM: First of all you will see, when we look at business attraction,

yes, there was a $30 million fund and, of course, there was none of that $30

million spent. We did also have the oil and gas fund which was another $5

million another $2 million, sorry, so we are trying to focus.

This is a fairly new department. Even though it is has been ongoing since

2004, it has, I suppose, really started to move in 2007 when it really got

moving, or late 2006. Our plans are to ramp up business attraction, to get more

employees into the department to deal with business attraction, so we can

actually start spending this $30 million.

The biggest variance here, of course, is in the fact that we have not hired a

full complement of staff; we have not spent any of the money for the Business

Attraction Fund.

We are very confident that we will spend the money this year because we know

what leads we have, we know files we are actually dealing with right now. There

are some concrete files that we have in place.

Given the fact that we are going to ramp up our full complement of staff,

given the fact that we are going to ramp up our business attraction because of

that staff, and given the fact that we are seeing a lot of activity now within

the department in terms of companies wanting to come in and engage the

Department of Business in files that we are moving forward right now, we are

confident that this year we are definitely going to need this money.

MS MICHAEL: A question then, because it might be a chicken-and-egg thing.

You put the money in, though, for this year. You did estimate the money to allow

for you to ramping up the staff, and you are saying now that the ramping up of

the staff will help with the attraction.

MR. ORAM: Yes.

MR. PARSONS: Why didn't you ramp up the staff this year, as you planned

on doing?

MR. ORAM: What had happened, again, when I became minister - and I can

speak to it from that time on, from November on - we did do a thorough review. I

wanted a thorough review done of the department. I wanted to see what positions

were there. I kind of wanted to find out where our focus really should be, and

our focus really has to be business attraction. So, of course, at that point I

kind of said: Let's get our feet wet. Let's see where we are actually going.

We have done that, and now we are more focused, and now I have decided where

we need to put these employees, where they actually need to be. So, now we are

going to concentrate probably a little more on the business attraction side

right now in terms of hiring employees. Because of that, we believe, that will

automatically bring more leads in which will generate more interest in the

Province and interest in our fund.

MS MICHAEL: I am glad to hear.

Can you give us an idea - you did say in your opening speech that you have

been building the client base and laying a groundwork for the business

attraction - is there anything specific that you can tell us about in building

the client base, for example?

MR. ORAM: Well, basically it is simple. The fact is that our travels that

we do are business attraction travels. We go out there and we let people know

about Newfoundland and Labrador either through our branding or our marketing and

we let people know that we do have this fund available.

It is not only the fund, either. The Department of Business sells

Newfoundland and Labrador as a great place to come and do business through our

Red Tape Reduction Initiative and so on. That is where we are right now, and we

feel this is where we need to be. There is a lot of interest that has been

generated. For instance, I will use the India trip. We met with a number of

companies in India that were interested in coming to Newfoundland and Labrador,

and we continue to follow up on those leads right now.

We have some files that are, I suppose - everybody says you should not give

false hope, but I do not think it is false hope to say that we are getting very

close to closing some of these files now in terms of doing some deals. So, you

know, it is happening and it does take time.

Business attraction is not a thing that is done overnight. I have been

involved in business for pretty well all of my life. I would bid on fifty jobs

in a year and sometimes get two. That is just the process that you follow. So,

we do not just throw it all - and I know you are not suggesting this, by the

way, but we do not just throw it all down and say oh, well, we did all this work

and we only have this many leads. The number of leads we are getting seems to be

increasing daily, really.

MS MICHAEL: Just to be clear, I think I may have asked this last year, it

is mainly international attraction that you are doing?

MR. ORAM: National and international. Our attraction cannot be within the

Province because, of course, that is Innovation, Trade and Rural Development, so

we do not deal with any indigenous business. It is only business from outside

the Province.

MS MICHAEL: That is right.

MR. ORAM: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: The thing is, I could go through line by line and ask

questions, but I think all of my answers are going to be hinging on this answer.

That is why I went to the bottom line. I do not feel the need to do any more

line by line, so I am going to pass off to somebody else and leave it to the

Chair to decide who that is.

CHAIR: Okay.

Thanks very much.

Does anyone over there have any questions? No?

MR. KELLY: (Inaudible) to compliment the minister on his plans for the

year, the fact that you are going to increase the staff within the department

and build on what is going on there. I think that is very positive. Obviously,

it is a very important department that is involved in co-ordination with other

departments and also attracting national and international businesses. I am

looking forward to a lot of very positive, good things coming from the

department.

I was astounded by the amount, I guess, of red tap reduction that has already

taken place within the department, and I am very pleased.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Kelly.

Mr. Parsons.

MR. PARSONS: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

MS MICHAEL: Just to point out, Mr. Chair, I probably will want to speak

again but not at this point.

CHAIR: Oh, yes, whenever.

MR. PARSONS: I will certainly withhold any compliments I might have until

I finish my questioning. I guess I am not a government member of the Committee

and I do not feel compelled at this point to be giving compliments.

MR. ORAM: Maybe next year.

MR. PARSONS: We will wait and see what the future holds.

Minister, can you give me the names of the companies that you have attracted

here?

MR. ORAM: No, I cannot. There are some confidentiality issues here and we

just cannot release those names.

MR. PARSONS: Do you mean to say we are a Province and we are spending, or

could spend, to the tune of $30 million or $40 million bucks and the people of

this Province do not know who you attracted?

MR. ORAM: When we announce, and when we give funding, when we provide

funding, then we will certainly announce who the proponents are.

MR. PARSONS: Are you telling me that you have attracted businesses?

MR. ORAM: Pardon me?

MR. PARSONS: Have you attracted any businesses, without telling me the

names?

MR. ORAM: Oh, absolutely. We have a number of businesses that (inaudible)

MR. PARSONS: You have a number of businesses in this Province

MR. ORAM: They have not received any monies from us at this point. We

have attracted businesses who say we are interested in doing business within

Newfoundland and Labrador. We have their business plan. We are moving through

the process, but we have not released any funds, as you can see, through the

Business Attraction Fund.

MR. PARSONS: Can you tell this Committee, and myself, and the people of

this Province, of any business that has been attracted here since this

department was created?

MR. ORAM: I absolutely cannot. I cannot release any information on any

company until after this particular

MR. PARSONS: Can you confirm for me, Minister, that there have been some

attractions, that there are businesses today not ones you have files on your

desk, not ones you hope to bring in next year - can you verify that there are

businesses in this Province today that are here because of the initiatives

undertaken by the Department of Business since 2004?

MR. ORAM: Well, I certainly cannot log what particular businesses are

actually attracted to the Province, but I can tell you this: If you look at our

marketing strategy, if you look at our Red Tape Reduction strategy, we believe,

through these particular processes, that there are businesses that have come to

Newfoundland and Labrador and set up.

No, I cannot name exactly what businesses have. Again, I guess we are

splitting hairs here in terms of or maybe I am not understanding correctly

or you are not, but the fact is that we have in our office right now a number of

business plans that we are dealing with. We are doing our due diligence. There

are some that are very close to announcements, and when we get those to where

they need to be we will then announce the name of that company.

Any time when we give any type of funding to any company, then we certainly

will release to the public what the name of that company is and the amount of

funding that has been given to that company as well.

MR. PARSONS: So I take it that is the policy of the department.

MR. ORAM: Absolutely.

MR. PARSONS: Well, I take it, because there have been no announcements,

to my knowledge, since the spring of 2004, it is safe to say there has not been

a single business attracted to this Province by this Business Department.

MR. ORAM: No, you are not safe to say that. No, you are not, because you

are making an assumption.

MR. PARSONS: Well, you would have announced it.

MR. ORAM: As you just said, you are assuming, but assuming is not a good

thing.

MR. PARSONS: Well, I don't think it is an assumption.

MR. ORAM: The assumption you are making is just an assumption. The fact

of the matter is, I am saying to you that I know and you know that we have been

marketing this Province. We have been cutting down on the red tape in this

Province. We have been dealing with the regulatory burden in the Province. We

have been showcasing the Province. We have been showing people that it is a good

place to do business.

I cannot list the specific companies that come to Newfoundland and Labrador;

but, as much as you can assume that we have not done that, I can also assume

that we have.

MR. PARSONS: Well, Minister, I do not deal in assumptions.

MR. ORAM: Well, you just said a minute ago that you assumed.

MR. PARSONS: Well, Minister, you existed this department has existed

this is your fifth year of operation: 2004, 2005, 2006 and 2007. You are

going into your fifth year and we have had budgets. We have been here in this

Estimates Committee. The Premier was the minister the first year or two and

would not show up for Estimates. Now, we are dealing with the third minister we

have had in this department, going into your fifth year of operations. There has

not been a single public pronouncement by this government or your department

since it came into inception.

Now, I do not think that is an assumption that nothing has been done. If you

have not spent any money, and there has been no public announcement of anything

you have done, what has your department done, other than take trips?

MR. ORAM: Well, I just told you. We have been marketing the Province, and

through the marketing of the Province we do not necessarily have to give

money to a company for them to come to Newfoundland and Labrador. It may be that

a company decides to come in because they saw what we were doing in Newfoundland

and Labrador, because we have marketed it properly. They do not necessarily come

to our department for money to do that.

MR. PARSONS: Can you again, a fair question, I think, maybe not to

you because you do not want to answer it.

MR. ORAM: I want to answer it. I have no problem answering the question.

MR. PARSONS: I think the public of this Province have a right to know,

can they see the fruits of your labour? What can they look at concretely to see

the fruits of your labour? You have been five years on the go. That is a pretty

simple question.

MR. ORAM: Again, you are focusing primarily on saying the department's

responsibility only, and it is a primary responsibility to attract business and

to use a $30 million Business Attraction Fund. This department has spent money

and done work in marketing. This department has spent money and done work in

reducing the regulatory burden on business, and showing that Newfoundland and

Labrador is a good place to do business. So, to just write off the department as

not being able to do or not doing anything for the Province, that is unfair.

MR. PARSONS: Minister, you are already after telling us that any money

your department has, has nothing to do with enhancing any business inside the

Province. My understanding is that is done through INTRD.

MR. ORAM: Exactly, yes.

MR. PARSONS: Your fund and your pot is to attract business from outside.

MR. ORAM: Right.

MR. PARSONS: Your Red Tape Reduction committee, I take it - correct me if

I am wrong - is intended not only for anybody outside who wants to come in but

anybody inside who has to deal with the current government as well.

MR. ORAM: Exactly, that is true.

MR. PARSONS: All I am saying is, what can you point to concretely? It is

fine to say we are going to create the environment, but I am asking you to go a

step further. In four years, have you seen anything you can point to concretely

to show that somebody is here creating business, contributing to our economy,

who were not here in 2004? Now, that is a pretty straightforward question.

MR. ORAM: To answer your question, I cannot show you any concrete

evidence as to, oh, yes, we have attracted this particular business. Again, I

would like to say that I believe there has been business attracted to

Newfoundland and Labrador because of the work that the Department of Business

has been doing.

MR. PARSONS: I have to clarify this as well, because this is the

government of so-called openness, transparency and accountability.

MR. ORAM: Yes.

MR. PARSONS: You did say a few moments ago that if you do help anybody,

you said on the one hand that you could not tell for privacy reasons, and then

in the next breath you said we will put out an announcement and say who we

helped, so I am a bit confused now.

MR. ORAM: In all fairness, I think you know this. You know the answer to

this. The fact of the matter is that until we give money to someone they do not

sign the bottom line. When they sign the bottom line to say that they are going

to receive money from this Province, from this government, from this department,

then we have the right to announce who that company is. We do not have the right

to announce who the company is until we give them funding. You know that was the

way it was in INTRD; it is the same thing.

MR. PARSONS: Minister, I would agree, I have no problem and difficulty

with not revealing the monies you give, or the names of the parties, until you

give the money.

MR. ORAM: Yes.

MR. PARSONS: I would assume, if you give any money, part of your program

and process is that before they get money they must agree, actually, that you

can announce that.

MR. ORAM: Yes, that is right.

MR. PARSONS: That is part of the deal. That is the applications, at

least, in INTRD.

MR. ORAM: Yes, the same thing.

MR. PARSONS: They do agree to public disclosure of that information.

MR. ORAM: Yes.

MR. PARSONS: What happens to the money that you invest in due diligence

is what I am getting at. What if you go out and, of that $30 million, you do not

bring a company from New York State. You try to attract them here. You go out,

and you have a process within your department, I understand, for doing due

diligence. What if you have gone out and spent $500,000 to do your due diligence

and you concluded that company A from New York is not going to get any money

from the Business Attraction Fund. How does that ever get accounted for? It is

$500,000 gone in due diligence. How do we ever know how you spent it?

MR. ORAM: The fact is, is that if you are involved in any business you

would understand the process. I mean, the fact is, is that any business in this

Province or world, they go out and they try to find opportunities and they spend

money to find opportunities. I have done it time and time again within my

business. You spend money. At the end of the day, some of them work, some of

they do not. The ones that do not work, all you can say is: well, you know, we

tried. We tried to make this happen but if it is not there, it is not there. You

cannot make it happen if it is not there but you cannot stop doing it because

you feel that: oh well, do you know what? We are going to spend this money and

it may not amount to anything.

We believe at the end of the day that this will amount to something. In fact,

if you look at other jurisdictions, because I think it is important to do that.

If you look at Nova Scotia Business Inc., for instance, the first amount of

money that they spent within their department, within I guess their corporation

- the first amount of money they spent was seven years after they opened their

department. It took seven years before they spent any money. So you could argue

the fact that: well, you know, Nova Scotia Business Inc., why did they continue

to go after - it was seven years before they started spending money from their

Business Attraction Fund, but they did spend money to try to do that, and at the

end of the day, today we see Nova Scotia Business Inc. as a powerhouse. They

make announcements almost every week, every month. So, it takes time to build

business attraction, and that is what we are about. That is what we are doing.

MR. PARSONS: Okay. I have no problem with that answer but it does not

answer the question I asked.

The question I asked was: How do you account to the public for the money that

you spent, which could be significant dollars in doing due diligence, if you are

not prepared to say who you spent it on and what you did?

MR. ORAM: We are prepared to say, through the Estimate process here, that

we spent money on professional fees. We spent money on this; we spent money on

whatever is itemized here, but we are not prepared to talk about a company that

wants to come to Newfoundland and Labrador to set up shop, because for one thing

- let me give you an example.

We have some companies that we have dealt with in the past number of months

that have operations outside of Newfoundland and Labrador; that are operations

that are actually working outside of Newfoundland and Labrador right now. If

they come to our department and they say we want to look at relocating to

Newfoundland and Labrador because we like the business climate, we like the

Business Attraction Fund, but we cannot talk about who we are in terms of we are

looking at coming there because we have an operation right now in another

province or another country where we have employees who are working there today.

We do not want that to get out because we need to keep our productivity up and

so on and so forth. It is not a great situation, as we know, in our Province

when a company decides we are going to move from province A, B, C, D or country

A, B, C, D and move into Newfoundland and Labrador. It is great for us, but it

is obviously not so good for that particular place. There are going to be people

who will lose jobs and so on. So we have to keep - confidentiality is very, very

important in business attraction.

MR. PARSONS: Yes, do not -

MR. ORAM: If we go outside of that - I will just add, sorry. If we go

outside of that our chances of attracting anybody to this Province is just done.

MR. PARSONS: I do not have an issue with the need to be confidential. I

was a Minister of ITRD as well. I understand, I think, how the process works,

minister. My question concerns openness and accountability. I saw it in this

House, and we have seen it here in terms of ITRD, and you have heard me ask the

question before. It concerns me that a government could be spending upwards of

millions of dollars, and there is no way to account for it to the public if you

hide behind the guise of confidentiality.

MR. ORAM: So what do you do? What is your answer?

MR. PARSONS: I do not know, but all I am saying is -

MR. ORAM: Right, you do not know. So that is the problem. You have no

idea. The fact of the matter is, I just laid out the facts here.

The facts are, if we are going to be involved in the business of business

attraction in this Province, and we are going to be involved in that means of

trying to get people to come to Newfoundland and Labrador to set up shop, then

this is a part of the process.

We have to maintain confidentiality in terms of whatever companies we are

dealing with, and if we are not going to maintain confidentiality when we go

through a due process - if we are not going to maintain that confidentiality, we

may as well shut the door today, because we are no different than any other

jurisdiction. Every other jurisdiction uses the same model that we use.

MR. PARSONS: Minister, I am not going to be argumentative with you, but

being confidential does not mean that you do not talk about it and that you do

not have some way of verifying where you spent the money.

MR. ORAM: Are you suggesting that we should say that company A, B, C, D

is the company that we have been out prospecting and trying to attract to

Newfoundland and Labrador - they have submitted their business plan, we have

done our due diligence on this particular company A, and we are getting ready to

- is that what you are suggesting?

MR. PARSONS: I think you at least - if you go through the process, the

same as we had in the case of ITRD here, where we had three companies, and it

was over $1 million that went to these three companies, pointed out by the

Auditor General of this Province, and -

MR. ORAM: Yes, but you have to -

MR. PARSONS: Just a second now - he used A, B, C. Now, at least he

revealed to the public that there was a company A, a company B, and a company C

that got money from this government.

MR. ORAM: And we do the same.

MR. PARSONS: But, what I am saying is, will you do that - even if the

deal does not work out, will you say we had a company A that we invested $50,000

in doing our due diligence on but it did not work out?

MR. ORAM: If we do that, we may as well shut our doors in this Province

to business attraction, because I used my example before, I will use it again.

The fact is, if that particular company is set up in some other jurisdiction in

some other province or country and they come in and are interested in doing

business in Newfoundland and Labrador, and we reveal who this company is and the

jurisdiction understands that, whoa, do you know what? They were looking at

moving away from where we are. It would cause their company major problems, and

they are not going to allow us to do that.

MR. PARSONS: I will just say, minister, in my view, if that is the view

of you yourself as a minister in this government that there is no

accountability, I think it is very misguided.

MR. ORAM: You are using the word

MR. PARSONS: I think you can verify, without any breaches of

confidentiality, where the money was spent.

MR. ORAM: No, you cannot. The fact is, is that we are very open and

accountable but in terms of confidentiality for our clients, we have to keep it

confidential. We have no choice, just as they do in INTRD. There is no

difference, Mr. Parsons. It is the same thing in INTRD. When you were minister

it was the same thing in INTRD.

MR. PARSONS: Yes, and I guess that is what caused the problem, minister,

because we had a case, as you are well aware, in this House where $1 million

walked out the door in INTRD. The Auditor General names the companies A, B and

C. The Comptroller General states the names of the companies -

MR. ORAM: But, did they receive money?

MR. PARSONS: - and yet, the minister of this Crown who spent the $1

million will not stand up and say who they were. Yet, they are listed on a sheet

of paper;

schedule B, in the Comptroller General's report.

MR. ORAM: All I can tell you, and I can only speak for my department, if

we advance funds to a company it will be revealed after we advance the funds, I

can assure you. Any money that is given to any company, from any place, from

this country, from outside this country, we will certainly be the first to stand

up and say company A received X number of dollars from the department. No

problem whatsoever.

MR. PARSONS: Anyway, minister, we will move on to 1.2.02., some more line

by line stuff.

MS MICHAEL: Actually, could I jump in before you do that?

MR. PARSONS: Sure.

CHAIR: Did you want to -

MS MICHAEL: Yes, I would like to, because I would like to get some

clarification on what has been going on here.

I cannot understand, Mr. Minister - this is what you are saying - why you

cannot report the number of companies. I am not saying that you report who.

MR. ORAM: Oh, yes. No problem.

MS MICHAEL: I look here and I see that $500,000 has been spent in

Professional Services, that was under Business Attraction, and $490,000 for

Professional Services under the Strategic Planning. So I am assuming that is

where the money has been spent.

MR. ORAM: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: I think that you should be able to tell us the number of

companies, at least; how many files you have.

MR. ORAM: Yes, a fair question, and I have absolutely no problem with

that whatsoever.

MS MICHAEL: Because that is almost $1 million.

MR. ORAM: I can tell you now, Ms Michael, we have no problem with that at

all. We will certainly give the number of companies. That is not a problem, but

we just cannot reveal the name of the company.

MS MICHAEL: I am not asking for the names at this point. I understand

that.

MR. ORAM: A fair question, and we will provide -

MS MICHAEL: I understand business, I ran a not-for-profit corporation.

MR. ORAM: Yes, I know.

MS MICHAEL: But, we have to have some accountability to the public for

that $1 million.

MR. ORAM: Fair enough. I agree. That is fair enough, and we will provide

that for you. That is not a problem at all. I understand completely. It is a

good point, actually.

MS MICHAEL: I do not know if that is where you were headed and there was

miscommunication going on.

MR. PARSONS: No, no (inaudible).

MR. ORAM: No, that is not where he was headed.

MS MICHAEL: Okay, all right.

(Inaudible) because I think I put two or three things together there in one,

as I went to those two line items. You verified that those line items let me

go to the two of those.

2.1.01.05., Professional Services. Even without your files in front of you,

can you tell me whether or not there was any are these all separate files or

was there a major file?

MR. ORAM: Laurie, do want to answer that?

MS SKINNER: The professional fees that are there, just to let you know,

there is more in there than just the professional services for due diligence. As

part of the model that the business attraction group uses, we actually engage

in-market consultants in various sectors and in various geographies in order to

generate leads for the department. So, there are costs in there related to that

as well.

MS MICHAEL: I see. Okay, and you have no there is nothing

specifically that you can say money is going to?

MR. ORAM: Let me just if I could speak to that.

I would have no problem, for instance, as Laurie just said, that we have

in-market consultants in different areas across the world, actually. We can give

you a list of those, where they are located, if that would help you somewhat. I

think it will help with the issue of openness and transparency. I would hope,

anyway. I have no problem with that.

MS MICHAEL: I have a note here - and I realize now that I did not get to

ask my researcher about this note, but she is very careful, so I am going to put

it out.

She has a note from the Estimates Committee meeting from last year saying

that what was -information that was given to the committee that money under that

area was being earmarked for an industrial marine fabrication initiative. Is

that correct?

OFFICIAL: (Inaudible).

MS MICHAEL: Yes. Could you speak to that then? Did that fall apart or was

money spent on that in that $500,000, or in this category, because she has her

note by this category?

MS SKINNER: There are very little amounts that were actually incurred. It

was one-time funding that, you are right, was earmarked for an industrial marine

fabrication initiative. We had engaged an external consultant to actually

facilitate some relationship building and some work between industry and labour,

but it did not materialize as we had expected. So while the budget was there,

very few funds are expended in the actual numbers.

MS MICHAEL: And was that a company from outside Newfoundland and Labrador

or a company inside?

MS SKINNER: No, it was a local.

MS MICHAEL: That is what I thought from her note.

Okay, thank you very much.

So you hoped it would fly and you hoped there would have been a larger amount

of money that would have been spent and it was not.

MS SKINNER: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: Okay, you can take over.

CHAIR: Mr. Parsons.

MR. PARSONS: Thank you.

I was heading into that 1.2.02.05. and 06. Can you give us a detailed

breakdown of where the $858,900 was spent for Professional Services and can you

give us a detailed -

MR. ORAM: (Inaudible) it is $490,000 there.

MR. PARSONS: Excuse me, yes, I am looking at

MR. ORAM: No, we can get that for you, no problem.

MR. PARSONS: - the $490,000 and the $81,400 on item 06.

MR. ORAM: Yes, we will definitely get that for you; absolutely, no

problem.

Would you like it as well, Ms Michael?

MS MICHAEL: Yes, please.

MR. ORAM: No problem.

MS MICHAEL: Everything that you told Mr. Parsons

MR. ORAM: Yes, you would like to have as well?

MS MICHAEL: - that you would get for him, I am assuming that I would get

as well.

MR. ORAM: Not a problem, sure.

MR. PARSONS: I take it again, I just ask this to confirm, any purchased

and professional services done under that

section were also done pursuant to

RFPs?

MR. ORAM: Yes.

MR. PARSONS: Minister, looking at

section 2.1.02., Special Initiatives

Investment Attraction.

MR. ORAM: Yes.

MR. PARSONS: And 2.1.03., Business Attraction Fund. Last year you had $7

million in the initiatives one, $25 million in the Business Attraction Fund,

none of which was spent in either.

MR. ORAM: Right.

MR. PARSONS: First of all, could you explain the difference to me between

the Special Initiatives and the Business Attraction?

MR. ORAM: Yes. Laurie, do you want to explain that?

MS SKINNER: The $25 million fund is a loans and equity investments fund.

Basically, it is to invest in larger scale companies that are coming into the

Province. It is either a repayable loan or it is an equity investment that the

Province would make in a particular entity.

Under the Special Initiatives fund, the $5 million, that consists of the $2

million for the oil and gas fund and $3 million that is a non-repayable

contribution fund. Basically, that $3 million will be used to provide payroll

rebates or to provide some assistance towards start up costs for entities that

are coming into the Province.

MR. PARSONS: Just so I am on a solid factual ground here, I would not

want to make assumptions. I am fairly safe on assuming and stating factually

that for the fiscal year 2007-2008, you did not spend any of the $27 million

allotted under these two funds to bring any businesses here of any nature.

MR. ORAM: How could you assume that?

MR. PARSONS: Well -

MR. ORAM: I am kidding.

MR. PARSONS: I am assuming that if zero is showing up there, Minister,

you did not spend it.

I ask the question now, just to go back again to follow that track, because I

like to be factual, if I were to follow back under your budgets from 2004 up to

now and look at each 2.1.02. and 2.1.03., Special Initiatives and Business

Attraction Fund, would I find any indication that the amounts allotted under

those headings for the last four years have ever been spent?

MR. ORAM: No, you would not. They would show you that it has not been

spent.

MS SKINNER: (Inaudible) within 2006-2007.

MR. PARSONS: Okay.

MS SKINNER: Oh, 2007-2008, sorry.

MR. PARSONS: Okay.

So, it was actually a very rudimentary department before that. You did not

have either one of these two initiatives?

MS SKINNER: No.

MR. PARSONS: So, there was no component whatsoever in the department for

the first two years?

MS SKINNER: No.

MR. PARSONS: Okay.

That helps clarify it a little bit, because the perception right now is that

you existed for four years and you never did anything.

MS SKINNER: Yes, and for a fair amount of time there were only a couple

of people who actually were operational in the department for the first couple

of years. I guess, just to reiterate, to build on that, the guidelines under the

Business Attraction Fund, under both the $25 million and the $5 million funds

were only approved in August of 2007.

MS MICHAEL: If I may jump in?

CHAIR: Ms Michael.

MS MICHAEL: I was going to ask that. Are there guidelines, are there

criteria, and could we see those for the two initiatives, the Investment

Attraction and the Business Attraction Fund?

MR. ORAM: Absolutely, no problem at all.

MS SKINNER: They are posted on the Web site but we can get them.

MS MICHAEL: Are they? That is fine. I don't mind going to the Web site.

For the record, it might be good to give them to us.

MR. ORAM: Yes, no problem.

CHAIR: Mr. Parsons.

MR. PARSONS: Can the minister tell us how many active files you currently

have in the department?

MR. ORAM: I can't tell you right now but I will get it for you.

MR. PARSONS: Concerning the Business Advisory Board, can you give me a

list of who currently sits on the Business Advisory Board and what changes, if

any, have taken place in the membership on that board since its inception?

MR. ORAM: Yes, we will get that for you as well. No problem.

MR. PARSONS: I am just wondering, too, if maybe you can explain - I

understand the Business Advisory Board is associated strictly with the

Department of Business is there any particular reason why there is a special

advisory board to the Department of Business, or does it generally give business

advice to any other department as well?

MR. ORAM: It is specifically for the Department of Business, quite

frankly. We have people involved in the Business Advisory Board that are in

different sectors in terms of business and different industry and different

geographic locations, actually, across the Province. That board we depend on for

advice in terms of, if we are looking at a file and we know that board member A

has some expertise in that particular area then we will call on them to find

out, to run a file by them and say: What do you think of this? Do you think this

is a good idea, or do you have any knowledge of this particular industry,

because our knowledge is sometimes very limited to some particular industry?

That is the basically the way we use them.

MR. PARSONS: Minister, the former minister talked about growth hubs.

MR. ORAM: About?

MR. PARSONS: Growth hubs, h-u-b-s; I don't always pronounce my h's

properly.

MR. ORAM: I am sorry.

MR. PARSONS: Growth hubs.

I am just curious. Was that a personal phenomenon of his, or is that a

concept and policy within the department, that you approach business in the

Province from that perspective?

MR. ORAM: Well, we look at different sectors, but the fact is that, as

far as I am concerned, our doors are open to any type of business that can work

in Newfoundland and Labrador. We have, I guess, identified some particular areas

that we feel would be appropriate right now: ICT, of course, advanced

manufacturing, aerospace and defence, even some initiatives within agriculture,

financial services and so on. We have identified these, but we are open to

business. Whatever comes our way that seems to be a good fit and can produce a

sensible business plan that can work then we open to sit down and talk to

anyone.

MR. PARSONS: I am just curious. We had a fairly extensive debate in this

Province last year about the investment by the government into the fibre optic

cable. I am just curious. Can you explain, or do you know, is there an answer, a

reason why putting $15 million into the consortium of Persona, Rogers, and I do

believe there was a MT company out of Manitoba or Saskatchewan - these were

external companies to this Province - why would that funding have been handled

through ITRD and not through the Department of Business, because it certainly

appears to be the attraction of outside major business interest? I would have

thought that would have fit under your bailiwick.

MR. ORAM: The fact is, first of all, I cannot really speak to that

because I do not know where the process was because I have only come in since

November, but Innovation and Trade is just as it is; it is innovative products

and so on. Therefore, I would suspect at that point that is the reason they did

it.

Again, that is an assumption. I do not know for sure. I have no idea, because

I was not around at that point.

MS SKINNER: (Inaudible) would have been deferred to another department.

MR. PARSONS: That begs a question, though: Why have you existed for four

years and have no funding?

MR. ORAM: Well, we have the funding now.

MR. PARSONS: That is not the point. The question is that you have had

people on payroll as a business attraction model for four years - this is going

into the fifth year and you are telling me now you only got it last year. Is

there a reason why you

MR. ORAM: I think that is a good question.

My answer to that is simple; the Department of Business started from nothing.

This was an idea that, as you know, was brought by the Premier. It was a

developing department, and through the process it was determined that, in order

for us to attract business to Newfoundland and Labrador, we are going to have to

put a fund in place to be able to do this.

Again, following through on what other jurisdictions are doing, we realize

that they have a Business Attraction Fund as well. Therefore, I think it is just

something that has evolved. It started out from here, as Laurie had said, we

started out with two or three employees and it has gone from there to where we

are today, and hopefully by next year at this time we will be well positioned,

but it is a growing department and the Business Attraction Fund was obviously a

fund that had to be put in place in order to compete with the rest of the

jurisdictions that have this fund.

MR. PARSONS: Thank you.

I have no further questions.

CHAIR: Ms Michael.

MS MICHAEL: Just one more, actually, with regard to the Business Advisory

Board. I am looking at the activity plan of the board for 2007-2008, and you

probably do not have that in front of you, but I am just curious. It identifies

issues in the plan, and this is issue one, overcoming barriers to business

development and growth. It talks about round tables and the concept of having

round tables. It says there was one held in 2006-2007, and it focused on supply

side perspectives, and that there was a plan then to have other round tables.

Have there been more of those round tables?

MR. ORAM: We would normally meet actually, I was on the Business

Advisory Board before I became minister so I can kind of speak to this a little

bit. We try to have meetings once every four weeks, six weeks, eight weeks. The

biggest difficulty we found was the fact that, because all of these people were

so busy - you know, we have people here who run major corporations in

Newfoundland and Labrador, and certainly outside of Newfoundland and Labrador

so, one of the challenges we had with the Business Advisory Board was trying

to get everybody together around the table. We are trying to work through that.

In fact, since I have been minister, I have been doing it a little different, I

guess. I have been getting on the phone and calling the board members up and

saying, what do you think of this, this is what we are trying to do. Our focus

not that we are trying to completely shift our focus, but if you can get

people together you still need the advice of these experts, and that is what I

have basically done.

To answer your question, the plan is to have roundtables, to have board

meetings, I will call it, every five, six, eight weeks; like that.

MS MICHAEL: Is there a budget for the advisory board? Do they get per

diems and where is that located?

MR. ORAM: They do actually. What I will do is I will get you a copy of

the actual amounts that were paid. The only people who get paid, I think, are

the chair and the vice-chair, if I am not mistaken. It is like a per diem of -

again, I will get this for you, so I will just throw it out I think it is

$190 for a day and $75 for a half day. It is somewhere around there, but I will

get those figures for you so you will know exactly what it is.

MS MICHAEL: And where would that show up in the Budget? Would it be under

the Minister's Office?

MR. ORAM: No. It is under Executive Support.

MS MICHAEL: Executive Support?

MR. ORAM: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: That was what I was thinking, and probably under Professional

Services under that; would it be?

MR. ORAM: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

That is the last question I had.

Thank you.

CHAIR: Thank you.

MS MICHAEL: Can I just make one last comment?

MR. ORAM: Sure.

MS MICHAEL: I understand what you are dealing with. It is interesting to

hear that it took Nova Scotia Inc. seven years before they got anywhere, but I

certainly sincerely hope that some of those files are going to start closing

this year as we finish the fifth year.

I agree with Mr. Parson's. I think this is what, ultimately, he said. I

know that there has to be an investment in this, and you do not get your

concrete feedback right away, but giving this detail that we have asked for, I

think it is extremely important.

MR. ORAM: I have no problem with that.

I will say this to end, and I keep saying this and I mean it, there is no one

in this Province who wants to do a deal any more than me. I can tell you that

now. We do want to do a deal and our department are working hard to do a deal

and to do the right deal for Newfoundland and Labrador. The problem is I do

not know if the problem is, but we still have to realize that we are spending

the Province's money, we are spending people's money.

We try to be as vigilant as possible with that. We are not trying to close

the door to be so tight that businesses have to cross every t and dot every i on

every single word. We want to be open enough so that people can access the funds

and access what government is trying to do. Having said that, people work hard

for the money and we want to be careful with the way we spend the money.

CHAIR: Thank you.

Mr. Parsons, any further?

MR. PARSONS: No, thanks.

CHAIR: Anyone else have any questions or comments?

MR. KELLY: I am assuming that initially, the first few years, you did not

have a budget, but in the

preamble to the

section here in the Estimates it talks

about your role as a co-ordinating role with the other departments. I am

assuming that in a co-ordinating role, if you needed funds, it would have come

from places like INTRD or whatever.

MR. ORAM: Well, no, because the problem was that INTRD is a department on

its own, so they have their own programs and they administer their own funding.

In terms of where we were: again, this department was a new department. It is a

department that has been building from the first day that it was started till

today and will continue to grow and continue to build. That is basically where

it is.

In terms of working with other departments, we are talking for instance about

red tape reduction. If you look at red tape reduction, we deal with every

department in government, because every department in government has to deal

with the regulatory burden that they put on not only business, of course, but

also the private sector. We deal with every department on that.

If you look at branding, for instance: our branding is not just for the

Department of Business. Our branding is for the whole of government. We keep

moving these initiatives forward. We work with other departments to ensure that

this is the way it works.

CHAIR: No further questions.

I ask the Clerk to call the subheads.

CLERK: 1.1.01 to 2.1.03, inclusive.

CHAIR: Shall subheads 1.1.01 to 2.1.03 inclusive carry?

All those in favour, 'aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: All those against, 'nay'.

Carried.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01 to 2.1.03, inclusive, carried.

Shall the total carry?

All those in favour, 'aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: All those against, 'nay'.

Carried.

On motion, Department of Business, total heads, carried.

CHAIR: Shall I report the estimates for the Department of Business,

2008-2009, carried without amendment?

All those in favour, 'aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: All those against, 'nay'.

Carried.

On motion, Estimates for the Department of Business, 2008-2009, carried

without amendment.

CHAIR: I would like to thank the minister and his officials for being

here today and the committee members, the staff of the House of Assembly.

Just wait a minute, please. Our next meeting is going to be on Tuesday, May

13 th , Tuesday coming, Department of Natural Resources, and it will be

over in the executive dining room over in the West Block.

Now I will ask for a motion to adjourn.

Moved by Mr. Verge that this meeting adjourn. This meeting is now adjourned.

On motion, the meeting adjourned.